Order of Man - EVAN HAFER ｜ A Conversation Amongst Men

00:00:00.000 You know, guys, I've spent the last six years trying to formulate the perfect conversation

00:00:04.680 and keep it within a certain topic. But the more I have conversations with

00:00:09.020 incredible guests like mine today, the more I realized that real conversations

00:00:14.160 go where they go and they aren't confined to a particular topic. So when I had the opportunity

00:00:20.700 to sit down with Evan Hafer, founder of Black Rifle Coffee Company, I realized there was

00:00:26.240 tremendous value in just letting the conversation go where it wanted to go.

00:00:32.200 So today we talked about archery, his recent controversy with both the left and right side

00:00:38.500 of the political spectrum, how to lead and manage well, racism, pop culture. And we talk about

00:00:45.220 everything in this conversation. So I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here we go.

00:00:49.560 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly charge

00:00:54.480 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you

00:01:00.060 are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This

00:01:06.340 is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said

00:01:11.400 and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:14.440 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler and I am the host and the founder

00:01:19.060 of this podcast and the order of man movement. Welcome here and welcome back. It's my goal

00:01:24.960 to bring powerful conversations to you. We do that via this podcast. We've had guys like

00:01:30.140 of course, my guest today, Evan Hafer and David Goggins and Steve Rinella and Andy Frisilla,

00:01:35.720 Jocko Willink. I say it every week, but the men that have come on and banded with us in some

00:01:40.320 form or another have been absolutely incredible guests. And the conversations that we've had

00:01:45.740 have been phenomenal. They've been very powerful and transformative, not only for me, but hopefully

00:01:51.420 for you as well. And that's my goal to give you all the tools and resources, guidance, direction

00:01:56.140 and conversations you need to thrive as a man. So we've got this podcast. We've got our ask

00:02:02.360 me anything that we will come out with tomorrow on Wednesdays. And then we've got the Friday field

00:02:06.440 notes, which come out each Friday, obviously. So with that said, if you guys would, please just

00:02:11.800 leave a rating and review. If you've got any value from what we talk about here on this podcast

00:02:17.100 about reclaiming and restoring masculinity and how to be a more effective, productive

00:02:20.840 man, then just go in, leave a rating and review only takes you a couple of minutes. And it's a great

00:02:25.740 way to give back to the podcast that hopefully has given you some value over the past nearly six years

00:02:31.280 now, which is crazy to think about that. It's been that long, but it has, and here we are still

00:02:36.020 going strong. In fact, not only going strong, but continuing to ramp up and gain more visibility

00:02:42.100 and more traction with the mission to reclaim and restore masculinity. Before I get into my

00:02:46.540 conversation today, guys, I was talking with my friend, Pete Roberts, who is the founder of origin

00:02:52.140 Maine. A lot of you guys are obviously familiar with them at this point. And he told me they've got

00:02:56.540 something going on with their Jocko fuel lineup, which is their joint warfare, their discipline,

00:03:02.940 go their go drink, which is a cognitive enhancing drink. I particularly enjoy their protein and their

00:03:10.620 joint warfare, because as I get a little older and I train more jujitsu, in fact, I can feel it right

00:03:16.640 now. My elbows are just, they're tight. They're sore. They're feeling it. I always have, it seems like

00:03:22.020 some low level amount of pain, which, you know, is not ideal, but I actually kind of liked the fact

00:03:29.060 that I have it. It says that I'm moving my body and using it to its fullest, but that joint warfare

00:03:34.000 goes a long way. Anyways, they've got their subscription program going on right now. So if

00:03:38.020 you go to jockofuel.com, jockofuel.com, you can sign up for any of their subscription products

00:03:44.840 and you will get 10% off. If you use the code order, O-R-D-E-R at checkout 10% for life and free

00:03:53.720 shipping for life. So again, jockofuel.com use the code order and you'll get 10% off for life

00:04:00.520 and you'll get free shipping on all of your orders for life as well. Again, you can do that

00:04:05.860 at jockofuel.com. All right, guys, let me get into the introduction of my guest today. A lot of you

00:04:11.040 guys are familiar with Evan. Of course, you likely know that he is the founder and the CEO of the

00:04:17.600 leading veteran owned coffee roastery black rifle coffee company. I joke with Evan. I say,

00:04:22.780 this is my favorite company that I actually don't use any of their products because believe it or

00:04:27.520 not, I do not drink coffee. So I don't use black rifle coffee company, but these guys are all

00:04:33.160 friends of mine that are phenomenal. Their business is amazing. It's pretty interesting that I have such

00:04:39.800 a great relationship with them considering I don't actually use their products. But anyways, I digress.

00:04:44.820 Evan is also a former green beret and frankly, he's just a hard and bad-ass and you may not know that

00:04:51.040 about him. But I had the opportunity to sit down with Evan at his ranch in San Antonio. And

00:04:55.680 you know, although I'm sure there are plenty of preconceived notions about who he is, this man is

00:05:01.480 a, he's a marketing genius and has in a period of six years, they started about the same time I did

00:05:06.500 a little before a couple of months before, I think has grown his company from roasting coffee out of

00:05:12.000 the back of a Humvee to an international brand that employs over 400 people. And many of these

00:05:18.660 men and women are a United States combat veterans. So I think you gentlemen are going to dig this

00:05:23.780 conversation that we fortunately got to do in person on his ranch. I personally enjoyed the

00:05:29.120 hell out of this conversation. You definitely will too.

00:05:31.480 Well, it's good to see you, man. It's great to see you too.

00:05:34.700 I mean, we've been here together for the last two days or one day, I guess, at this point.

00:05:39.000 We packed a lot of stuff in a 24-hour period, actually less than 24-hour period.

00:05:43.900 We did. But when we just got done with the shooting the course, which is your adaptive

00:05:48.940 athlete course, if I understand correctly. So tell us what that is.

00:05:54.060 So a few years ago, I was fortunate enough, I think, to get turned on to archery. And I started

00:06:03.320 shooting trad bow or traditional bow initially.

00:06:06.660 Oh, that's what you did first?

00:06:07.640 Yeah.

00:06:07.840 As you got into archery?

00:06:08.540 Yeah.

00:06:08.680 Okay, cool.

00:06:10.000 I picked up a Hoyt Buffalo just randomly at some archery shop because I was looking at compound bows.

00:06:17.360 I was like, I don't even know what the hell is going on here. There's so many strings and

00:06:21.640 buttons and lights and shit.

00:06:23.020 And then it's got to be customized to you and draw length and all that stuff.

00:06:26.480 So that intimidated me to the point where I was like, I just got to get this stick with

00:06:32.500 a string. I think I can figure that out.

00:06:34.680 Yeah.

00:06:35.300 And so I started shooting and one of my buddies, Baker Levitt, he's friends. Well, he's an associate

00:06:44.500 with John Dudley. Then John turned me on to, he's like, you should get something that you

00:06:52.680 can actually hit your target with.

00:06:55.200 That might keep you in the game a little longer.

00:06:56.660 Yeah. Yeah. It might, it might, it might provoke your interest a little bit more.

00:07:00.080 Right. Unless you're like Aaron Snyder.

00:07:02.320 Correct. Yeah. Unless you're really trying to like take your shoes off and do hardcore stocking.

00:07:08.520 And that's, that's a, that's a next level type of situation. That's, that's Aaron's game.

00:07:14.400 Um, but to, to answer your question with compound bows and was shooting the last few years, I've,

00:07:23.140 I've done a ton of pistol and rifle shooting, but that the archery world was completely new to me.

00:07:27.520 And it really helped me in a wide variety of ways because it's, it's an active form meditation.

00:07:35.240 It's quiet. Yeah. I can hit a target. You got to focus on that thing alone. I guess that's the

00:07:40.420 meditative part of it. I think so. I think it's somewhat meditative. Um, and you get to,

00:07:47.620 you know, use a projectile and hit a target with it. So it's, it's familiar enough because you're

00:07:52.860 working through the fundamentals of shooting. Uh, I realized I was like, man, I think there's some,

00:07:58.280 I think there's a lot of good we can do within the veteran community and archery,

00:08:02.340 not just because I like it just because it helped me. And the other guys that I know,

00:08:06.440 I started talking to other vets and they're like, yeah, did the same thing for me,

00:08:09.160 did the same thing for me. And John and I started talking. I was like, man, we got to do something

00:08:14.620 for veterans. And then there's a, there's a unique group of veterans that have been

00:08:22.280 wounded in combat. Right. But I think they need, not as if, uh, you know, every veteran needs

00:08:29.620 help because that's not the situation, but a lot of the adaptive guys that have been wounded in

00:08:34.920 combat, they, they miss out on some things because, you know, it's fairly intimidating. Like I was

00:08:40.980 intimidated to get a compound bow and start learning and get a coach and all this other

00:08:44.640 being around other people that have been doing it for two, you know, two decades. Yeah. Yeah,

00:08:48.280 for sure. So, uh, we did an adaptive athlete shoot last year. Was that the first one you did last

00:08:54.360 year? Yeah. It was the first one. I was supposed to go out there, but I couldn't make it, but yeah,

00:08:57.820 it looked amazing. Yeah. It was so much fun. And, um, the, the veteran community, especially the,

00:09:05.820 the wounded veteran community, uh, they're, they're obviously there's a fairly large or substantial

00:09:15.440 group, like thousands of people that have lost limbs and eyesight from, you know, Afghanistan or

00:09:20.720 Iraq or traffic accidents or something like that in the last 20 years. So being able to give that

00:09:26.720 back and say, Hey, this is something I think is pretty cool. Maybe this will help you guys. At the

00:09:31.820 end of the day, I teamed up with PSC and a bunch of these other companies that donated bows. We had

00:09:36.660 all these cool partners. Everybody came together. We did coaching sessions, took them out on the

00:09:42.160 course. So these guys, when they go out, like they haven't ever shot before. Most of them. Yeah.

00:09:46.580 Really? Yeah. I didn't know that part of it. Yeah. That's cool. A lot of guys hadn't shot a bow.

00:09:50.760 So it's Dudley giving them instruction. Other guys are giving them instruction on how to,

00:09:54.040 yeah, exactly. So we brought in some adaptive athlete coaches, Dudley, a bunch of other guys

00:10:00.300 like Cole Kramer, he came down from Alaska. So all these guys were in town for total archery challenge

00:10:05.660 and it, it fit really well into the schedule. So we could do a couple of days of coaching before we

00:10:11.740 went out. Right. And then, uh, this year I asked Sean from, from a total archery challenge to come

00:10:20.080 out and build a course out here so we could run adaptive athlete shoots, you know, every month if

00:10:26.160 we wanted to. Whenever you wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. There's a ton of vets here in San Antonio area too,

00:10:29.720 that, that they just want to get out, especially with COVID, COVID restrictions, most of their BS.

00:10:35.660 Get active, get active. And it's amazing to see these guys too. Cause I did a, uh, I did a Spartan,

00:10:41.240 a gogi. It's a 60 hour endurance event. And I did this like three years ago, roughly. Really? Yeah.

00:10:46.880 And I remember in my head, it was, it must, I must've been 30 or 40 hours into this thing. Right.

00:10:52.500 And I was bitching and moaning in my head. No, this is stupid. And I'm, you know, my legs hurt or

00:10:57.020 whatever. And I saw one of these adaptive athletes walk past me and I was like, Oh man, like,

00:11:04.520 here's this guy who's missing both of his limbs. He's got, he's got prosthetics, you know, of course.

00:11:09.940 Then he's got, I think if I remember right, he had like the canes that attached to his arm and he

00:11:14.060 was just hiking and had a little hop in his step. And I'm like, what the hell am I complaining about?

00:11:19.600 Like when you see these people and what they do and then their attitudes about it and how supportive

00:11:24.040 they are of their own community and other people, it really puts things in perspective.

00:11:27.720 Mm-hmm. I, that's one of the things I, I, I last year when I, I, one of my good buddies,

00:11:34.380 Clint trial, he, he lives here. One of the things I was talking to him about specifically,

00:11:38.680 it was like, we have to inspire leadership from the veteran community. We have to, you know,

00:11:46.120 put people out that are obviously, I think psychology is more infectious than COVID. Uh, and I think

00:11:52.300 from just what you said, which is, you know, these guys get up and they, they suck it up every day and

00:11:59.320 they're living with permanent injury. Right. And, uh, there's a lot of guys that create excuses

00:12:06.560 to not do something. When you, when you see guys that are not creating excuses, they're living a

00:12:12.440 positive life. They're trying to make positive impact and surround themselves with positive people.

00:12:16.220 Mm-hmm. Uh, that stuff translates in, in, in, in, it becomes viral. Right. Sure. Yeah. Um,

00:12:23.940 so one of my goals was, and, and, you know, coming back to, uh, two things that truly I utilize in my

00:12:30.600 life, which is one archery, which I love. And then two, uh, you know, the people that inspire,

00:12:36.340 motivate me and push me to try to do at least good for the community, good for the company,

00:12:41.160 you know, keep me kind of focused center mass on azimuth is the guys that haven't come back from

00:12:48.000 these wars. Yeah. And the guys that are living with permanent physical and psychological injuries,

00:12:53.800 I'm lucky. Right. I, and I know it, I've got my fingers, my toes, you know, my, my kids are healthy.

00:13:00.940 My wife's healthy. Everybody's, everybody's good to go. Right. But, uh, there are a lot of guys that,

00:13:07.440 you know, they got to roll out of bed into their chair or their legs aren't fitting right. Right.

00:13:13.680 Or it rubs them, rubs the skin wrong and tears them. And yeah. Yeah. And a lot of these guys are

00:13:20.720 the most positive people that I know. Like you call them and they're supercharged. They're like,

00:13:24.580 what the fuck is up, man? What's going on? You know? And, and, uh, for me, if, if I can try to

00:13:32.220 at least add some value to that group of people, those people in any way, shape or form, I don't

00:13:39.580 care what it is, but just connect in and pay for some positivity. And when I say that it's, you know,

00:13:46.080 get everybody together, buy the bows, get the 3d targets, arrange the schedule, you know,

00:13:51.640 work the logistics, get everybody there. That's super easy. And it's, it's one of the most fulfilling

00:13:56.540 things that I've been able to do in the last several years of the company, bring people in

00:14:01.900 and, you know, everybody's eating together and laughing and sharing stories. Yeah. Teasing each

00:14:08.160 other. Yeah. It's fucking awesome. Yeah. Well, and you said something interesting yesterday. I think

00:14:12.980 it was yesterday. We did, we'd done a lot, like you said, but you said something like some, some

00:14:17.480 struggles or something in the business. And then you said, but that's not real. Like those aren't real

00:14:22.300 problems. My wife's at home, she's happy and healthy. My kids are healthy and they're learning

00:14:28.020 and growing and they're intelligent. And like all of that stuff to dialed in and in check. And it

00:14:32.980 seems like we've just, we complain about trivial bullshit that doesn't actually matter. We get so

00:14:39.120 consumed with our own problems and they're not even, they're not even problems. No. Like most of what

00:14:44.080 we deal with is not a problem, but we blow it up. I don't know. I don't know if we blow it up

00:14:49.460 because it gives us some sort of like purpose or excuse maybe even for not performing the

00:14:56.640 way that we should. And then you start seeing these other people who are excelling in spite

00:15:00.300 of certainly difficult circumstances. And it just blows up your excuse for not doing it

00:15:06.440 yourself. Yeah. And it's interesting. I, I think about that a lot because of social media

00:15:13.040 more than anything. Right. It's, it's a fictional reality. It's not real. You know, the comments,

00:15:18.680 you don't know the people necessarily. Or they might not even be people. Right. They're

00:15:22.340 not people. Like bots. Yeah. Some 16 year old from Honduras, like

00:15:26.020 gives a shit. Right. But the tangible aspects of life

00:15:30.160 for me at least, and I try, and I have to remind myself because that's just white noise. And at the

00:15:35.140 end of the day, you have to chop that shit out and then focus on the things that are real. Like

00:15:39.060 I know when I step into the company in the morning and I, you know, high five my employees and talk

00:15:44.740 about what we're going to do, you know, today, this week, this month, uh, you know, when we're

00:15:50.640 handing out bonuses or you're doing a new roast or connecting in with the team, that's, that's

00:15:57.060 real. That's tangible. Right. You can't take it with you, which is fine. You can't take shit with

00:16:02.660 you other than obviously your legacy and what you experienced. Yeah. But I have to, I have to

00:16:10.340 constantly, uh, chop out the white noise, focus on what's real. You know, they're, they're not real

00:16:18.380 problems. Right. And for whatever reason, your brain wants to activate some of that crap and then

00:16:26.000 focus on it because it's easy to focus on negative. It's really hard to push yourself into the positive

00:16:32.180 and maintain the positive. Like I have to be a positive influence in my family. Like there is no

00:16:38.160 deviation from that. Like there is no left or right. I can't be the guy that's on my phone

00:16:44.700 every night. I can't be the guy that comes home and is an asshole to my kids and my wife because

00:16:49.020 I got some stress going on at work. Right. Yeah. And it's not stress. Like nobody's shooting RPGs at

00:16:53.920 me. Nobody's rattling off a PKM or a fucking AK. Yeah. You said you had an RPG that went through the

00:16:58.700 grill of your Humvee that, you know, or truck or whatever it was and, uh, and didn't explode

00:17:03.080 fortunately, obviously. Very fortunate. Um, yeah, that's, that's a real problem. Right.

00:17:08.080 That's, that's pretty intense versus somebody who says, I don't like black rifle. Okay.

00:17:13.040 Yeah. All right. So it, and at the end of the day, uh, I don't know that guy or whomever,

00:17:19.800 right? I don't know those people and they, they're probably not going to be a customer

00:17:23.120 either way. Well, you don't know their motive either. Like, like, so we're friends. So

00:17:26.940 if I came to you and I said, Hey Evan, I see something. And I thought I would just point

00:17:29.960 it out. Like that comes with more weight because you know that I care about you and what you want

00:17:35.000 to accomplish. Right. But if I came to you and I was just some random dude off the street and I'm

00:17:39.380 like, Hey, here's a problem. It's like, who the hell are you? Like what? Like I, you don't have

00:17:43.680 my best interest at heart or maybe you do, but I don't know that. Well, nobody, like, like you said,

00:17:48.840 when you identify those real friends or those people in your life that will, will give you candid

00:17:53.560 feedback as to what you're doing. Yeah. You know, I always have the, the, the legacy of,

00:18:01.640 of mentors and men that have been a positive influence in my life that were positive leaders

00:18:08.080 that were good leaders that were good managers, good men, whether that was my, you know, grandfather

00:18:12.960 or my, you know, my great grandfather or the guys that I served with, it's the people that are looking

00:18:19.940 over my shoulder. They're going, would they be okay with this? And like, do you think about that when

00:18:26.620 you're making decisions? Do you think like, what would my, what would my grandfather think or what,

00:18:30.300 how would he handle this situation? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I think just because somebody is dead,

00:18:38.380 they can't, people think they can't be an influence in your life. And that's, you know,

00:18:43.460 that's just not true. I mean, you know, for years after my grandmother died, when I was in my,

00:18:48.220 you know, uh, like nine, 10 or 11 years old, I, I thought for sure she was looking down at me and

00:18:53.700 prevented me from masturbating all those years, you know, like I was like, I'm not going to do this.

00:18:57.600 Grandma's watching. That would do it. That would definitely do it. But no, I think one of the

00:19:05.800 things that we do is we put a finite cap on people's influence in our lives. And I think you

00:19:11.840 have to, and I, not to get too existential in some way, but those people would have, you know,

00:19:20.980 especially the people I served with, they would have died for naught if they would not have pushed

00:19:25.040 me to be a better man today. Right. Yeah. True. And they're there, they they're there every day.

00:19:31.360 And, and, you know, I've said it before on multiple podcasts, but Iraq is with me.

00:19:36.700 It's with me every day of my life. It's never going away. And you know, the, the four and a half

00:19:44.420 years that I have in that country, that was very, very formative in my years, especially in my 20 and

00:19:51.160 thirties. Yeah. And I can live and dwell on the negative of how that country impacted my life,

00:19:59.960 or I can take that experience and I can put it through basically a processor and then use that

00:20:09.480 to, to get me up in the morning and kick me in the ass and say, if, if I don't create positivity,

00:20:16.200 something positive, I don't create either jobs or, you know, a high quality product, which is typically

00:20:22.640 it is at the forefront, but it's just kind of an implied thing. It's like, what do we do to create

00:20:28.760 a positive impact, positive ecosystem? If I don't do that, the, the interface and the connection that I

00:20:39.220 had with those men, it dies with them. Right. So they have to live. And ultimately they're living

00:20:46.720 through me. And every day, every day they're living through me.

00:20:51.860 That's a good point. It almost, it's, it seems like to me, and I've, I've had these experiences

00:20:56.300 too, where it's like, you do them a disservice if you don't show up the way that, you know,

00:21:01.000 occasionally I'll have a young man ask, you know, he'll have, uh, his father die. For example,

00:21:05.920 as a young man, it'll say, you know, how do I, how do I go on? I'm, you know, my dad's

00:21:09.800 dead and we were super close and I don't know what to do. And, and I, and I, and I don't want

00:21:14.760 to dismiss the pain that of course, an emotional trauma that comes with that. But at the same time,

00:21:19.740 the answer is live the life that he would have been proud of you for living. That's, that's the path.

00:21:26.600 That is the path forward. Make him proud of you. Right. And I think a lot of guys get hung up and

00:21:31.780 thinking that, like you said, death is just finite. It's the end point and what's done is

00:21:36.920 done. No, like you can use that for fuel. But the question is what separates you as somebody who

00:21:42.600 takes those experiences, which are painful and difficult circumstances where you've lost brothers

00:21:47.800 and turn it into a positive, run it through that process, like you said, or somebody who decides to

00:21:53.360 self implode because of it, because we both know people who are like that.

00:21:56.660 Yeah. I honestly think that a lot of it has to do with, um, one, what type of an experience was it?

00:22:04.720 Right. So, you know, trauma is different to every individual, right? It's subjective. Yes. And then,

00:22:10.460 uh, substance abuse is typically a coping mechanism. Um, and I think substance abuse on top of trauma,

00:22:19.340 it really starts to create a, a, a hostile environment for the individual, right? The person that's

00:22:25.900 living in that. Yeah. And then those are, those are compounding elements. So I have to be, I have to

00:22:33.360 be really straight with myself. Right. And, uh, which sounds kind of trite when you think about it,

00:22:39.900 but it's the truth. I have to have really, really hard conversations with myself. I don't drink.

00:22:45.280 Typically when I say that, like I haven't had a drink in like a year, except for maybe one glass of

00:22:50.240 wine with Andy stump, you know, because I know that based on the stress in my life and my past,

00:22:57.540 that could be a weakness that could compound itself and do something that is ultimately a dead end.

00:23:05.300 So those are boundaries that you put in place. Look, if I go down this path, I don't know where

00:23:08.900 that path leads. And I know I'm not interested in going down that path. Exactly. It's actually very,

00:23:13.180 it works very much like that with negativity too. So you start buying into negativity in your life

00:23:20.120 and be, if you make that acceptable behavior, it becomes a normal, right? The normal buzzword. So,

00:23:28.540 uh, you know, I can be an asshole, but typically that's because I'm a coach, right? I'm a coach.

00:23:37.460 Like I have to sit here and fucking put people in the field and tell them what they're doing wrong

00:23:42.940 and be super candid and drive the train. And that doesn't come off in flowery prose. Sometimes

00:23:50.180 that's like, get up, get your ass to work. I don't care what your problems are. Like suck it up. Let's

00:23:56.840 go. How do you check that though? Cause you know, some people are, we were talking about it actually

00:24:00.560 earlier this morning, like the way that you talk with some people versus others, you know, military

00:24:04.900 service versus somebody who doesn't. So like, how do you check that maybe natural tendency or even

00:24:09.920 something that you learned through your military service to, that's how we talk to each other.

00:24:14.180 Right. And so you get with another veteran, it's no problem. It's no problem. You get with somebody

00:24:18.700 else who's never had a grown man in their face or never heard any sort of dark humor or anything

00:24:22.640 like that. And they're like, what the hell is wrong with this guy? So how do you check that,

00:24:27.240 that attitude if it needs be? You got to take the temperature, I think, you know, and you got to,

00:24:32.600 you got to build people into it. I, I really do think you have to build people into it. You can't

00:24:38.240 just come at, uh, typically, right. You can't just come at people that haven't had the same life

00:24:45.240 experiences and maybe they haven't been in the military, whatever it might be. You can't come

00:24:48.580 at them in a way that's going to be so foreign that they're, it's going to put them on their heels.

00:24:54.240 But I think a lot of people do that. You know, it's funny. I hear a lot these days of like,

00:24:58.140 and you've heard it too, like the zero F's mentality, you know, like this is just the way I am.

00:25:02.040 If, if they can't deal with it, then that's their problem, not mine. I'm like, how are you

00:25:05.300 going to lead somebody with that? That's not real. That's not a real thing. That's, that's for people

00:25:09.400 that have no ability to grow individually or evolve. Right. That's like, fuck the world. I'm

00:25:14.900 great. Right. Very ego driven. Sure. I, I don't think that leads people down a successful path

00:25:21.940 whatsoever. None of the people that I, uh, truly respect can't modify their communication or at least

00:25:31.320 modify their behavior so they can, they can get the, the team to a place where it needs to be.

00:25:38.420 Right. I think when you're running a business or if you're, you know, the head of the household or

00:25:43.760 whatever that might be, it's a team sport. Right. When you got to show up and you got to put in the

00:25:48.680 work, right? Like that's, that's part of the thing is showing up, being present, putting in the work.

00:25:53.860 And, you know, for me, a lot of it is focused on positivity and positive psychology and positive

00:25:59.440 reinforcement, but it's also coupled with, you have to create boundaries and you have to enforce

00:26:05.020 them as well. And you, you have different forms of communication with different people that you can

00:26:09.820 apply. Uh, you know, a good example I've used in the past is, you know, kind of falling back on,

00:26:15.460 on combat experience where I can convey a point when we're not in a gunfight to somebody and say,

00:26:22.100 Hey, I need you to go over there and stand at that window. Somebody will do it. Right. Somebody

00:26:25.960 shooting at you and they're locked up and they're frozen. You might have to grab them

00:26:30.460 by the back of the uniform and apply them into that situation physically. Sure. That is a totally

00:26:37.300 different form of communication. Nonetheless, it's the same, but it's applied in different

00:26:42.360 circumstances. You're, you're producing the same outcome, the same result. I need you to be there

00:26:47.620 doing this thing. I need you to be there. And sometimes you have to use

00:26:50.560 several different modes of communication. Are there times when I'll say things and Jared's

00:26:57.080 probably heard this a million times too. I'll say things, this, the same thing, three different

00:27:01.020 ways, three different times, because in order to convey a point, you, you have to, one, you

00:27:08.980 have to think about it. You might have to put it out in a written format. You might have to

00:27:12.640 put it out in the, you know, the, the physical space format. You might have to put it out multiple

00:27:17.900 different ways. Come at it from different angles. Yeah. Yeah. And then once you've exhausted all of

00:27:23.020 those and you still can't get through, you have to ask yourself, is it me? You do still have to

00:27:32.000 ask that question is, am I the problem with this communication? And that is not a zero fucks

00:27:39.600 type mentality. Right. Right. That's like, holy shit. Because you're caring about how you show up.

00:27:44.120 You got to show up. And I heard one of my friends, he's been on the podcast. His name is Brett

00:27:48.920 Bartholomew. He says, says something, I'm going to butcher it. He says, you know, you can get,

00:27:53.220 you can get compliance that way, but you can't get commitment. Right. And, and what we want,

00:27:58.260 whether you're a father or a business owner or a leader at your, you know, church congregation

00:28:02.800 is you don't want compliance. No. I mean, in some cases, if you're in the firefight,

00:28:07.640 I just need you to comply and do this right now. But also that soldier who you grabbed by the back

00:28:12.880 of the neck and put in that thing, there's also a level of trust there because you've trained

00:28:17.160 together. He understands you, you've gotten to know him. And so you have that commitment,

00:28:21.120 which is significantly deeper than just some level of compliance from people.

00:28:26.420 Yeah. And it's, is it difference between a dictator and a leader, right? There's a, there's a big

00:28:30.560 difference between those two things. And, and, you know, if that's your style, which I know a lot

00:28:38.700 of guys that run businesses and that's our style, right? They're, they're dictators. Right. Yeah.

00:28:43.000 And I know a lot of guys that run their families like that. Typically they're not my friends,

00:28:46.060 but I know guys that kind of run their families like that as well. And that's a big difference

00:28:52.780 between a guy that is, uh, connecting emotionally with his family or his community, his business,

00:28:59.980 whether that might be, uh, applying empathy in different modes of communication in order to

00:29:05.220 truly lead. And leadership looks different to wide variety of people. I mean, it's, you're going to

00:29:13.880 get through to different people, different ways. Like Dave over there, I yell at him all the time.

00:29:21.200 And, but that's the way we communicate. He's told me he, he appreciates it and he appreciates that form

00:29:27.000 of communication. And I've tried to fire him at least 20 times. He's not in his head. He's like,

00:29:32.660 yeah, he likes it. I was just making sure. Yeah. But there's a lot of guys out there. I mean,

00:29:38.320 in the company that are mill guys and you got to light them up. Like sometimes you just got to light

00:29:45.680 them up and it's like that. Oh shit. I'm, I'm awake now. I'm listening. Right. Okay. And then there are

00:29:53.000 people that they just don't need that. They don't need that type of connection or communication.

00:29:58.660 You have to be able to adjust your, your comms as a former comms guy, I guess you got to be able to

00:30:04.860 fucking figure it out. Yeah. It's like the frequency almost, right? Okay. I have to change

00:30:07.780 frequencies for this particular individual. Cause look, a lot of people say, well, he just doesn't

00:30:11.280 get it. Well, if you're trying to communicate a message, it's your responsibility to ensure that he

00:30:16.180 gets it, not his responsibility to ensure it's received. Like you're sending it. That's your

00:30:20.820 responsibility. Yeah. If you're a teacher and you have 20 students and 50% of the class fails,

00:30:24.840 whose fault is it? Exactly. Right. It's definitely not the students. It's yours. Right. And my

00:30:29.040 daughters that are seven and three, I can't use the same style of communication with them as I do my

00:30:35.240 employees. Or even each other. They're, they're so different to their personalities and everything.

00:30:39.800 Yeah. So it's one of those things I think you constantly have to adjust and evolve and ask

00:30:46.620 yourself and I'm not the best at it. I do it. I definitely am by far. Am I saying I'm the best,

00:30:52.580 I'm the best at it. I'm not trying to, you know, break my arm to pat myself on the back

00:30:57.000 because there are times when I'm, I'm too fired up at times. Sure. You know, um, I know I have the

00:31:02.780 problem of like, okay, my wife will even tell me, she's like, are you talking to me, your wife or

00:31:07.520 your guys? Right. Right. And I'm like, Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to adjust. Yeah. Like for sure.

00:31:13.400 My wife and I were doing this project on the house and I was like, I came in one day and I was

00:31:18.140 like, this is what we're going to do. You know, X, Y, Z, like make these phone calls. My wife's

00:31:24.660 like, what? Yeah. Come again. You might want to go back out and find yourself back into the company.

00:31:31.980 That's the way that you communicate over there. That's not the way you're going to get shit done

00:31:35.700 here. Cause I'll just be, you know, passive resistance type circumstance. And two, you don't run

00:31:40.880 this show. This is, this is my, this is my show here. And I'm like, okay, fair. You got it. Yeah.

00:31:46.180 Okay. You got it. Let's fix this. Yeah. Well, I think the other problem with that, that dictatorship

00:31:50.840 you were talking about is even if you do get some level of compliance, let's say it, let's say a

00:31:55.700 business owner runs it like a dictatorship. He always has to be there because if anything goes wrong,

00:32:02.660 there's any sort of little wrench in the system or whatever, he hasn't given his people authority

00:32:07.180 to be creative, to solve problems, to deal with it. If I'm not around. Right. Cause he has to have

00:32:13.920 his nose and his hand in every little thing. I don't want to live. Like I got, I want to leave

00:32:20.420 like I am now. I'm gone for a week. Right. I want to leave for a week and know that the iron council,

00:32:24.960 which is our brotherhood. I want to know that I can be gone for a week and shit's not going to break

00:32:30.220 down. Like I've got people in place that are going to hold meetings. And if problems come up,

00:32:33.700 we've got the chain of command in place. Right. That's infinitely more rewarding for me. Cause I

00:32:38.260 can go do stuff like this. Yeah. I can, you can go. And I mean, that's one of the things that I love

00:32:43.980 about having a business too. You can, you can dip out for a weekend and take your kids to do something

00:32:51.060 cool. And yeah, you're connected, but you know, it's one of those things between the, if we're,

00:32:57.960 you know, kind of staying on a military theme at times is it's a difference between developing a

00:33:02.220 chain of command and in a coherent, uh, system of responsibilities and communication that

00:33:08.440 ultimately, when we looked at like world war two and the difference between the Russian army,

00:33:12.520 the, you know, the, the German army or the Nazis and the Americans, we, we communicated and we also

00:33:18.920 had a very definitive chain of command and people could make decisions at a lower level. They didn't

00:33:22.960 have to keep leveling it up and up and up and up. That decentralized command concept. Sure.

00:33:27.200 Yeah. And, uh, I think you have to, you know, train, right. You have to train the trainer. You

00:33:33.940 have to make, put people into tough situations. I think you have to give them the skills and

00:33:38.540 ultimately the opportunity to succeed or fail. And depending on the situation, you know, you can't

00:33:45.960 eat their lunch on failure either because then they're going to be afraid to fail. Right. They won't

00:33:50.580 step up. They won't step up. So you have to keep creating those situations. I think in your life

00:33:56.940 for the people around you. And when I say that, um, you know, any person that's managing and leading

00:34:04.460 across the board, they have places where they can apply situations to, to train people and not like,

00:34:12.420 I think there's, there's this bad connection between being subservient and more of like a master,

00:34:19.120 like the dog, like a dog trainer or something like that. No, that's not, it's not what I'm

00:34:22.860 referring to. Well, when in the, in the military, I think guys are really, they're, they're really

00:34:30.700 connected to training and development. They understand it. They're always going to train

00:34:34.360 and they're always developing. So we have this, we have a way closer connection with being able

00:34:39.540 to be trained even by our peers. We don't have a negative connotation with this. And we're

00:34:44.600 like, it isn't like, so you're not being subservient to somebody else. Like you're

00:34:47.960 saying just like hip pocket training, like you and your team are going out and doing

00:34:51.120 hip pocket training. Like somebody has to kind of organize the effort and execute on it.

00:34:55.640 Right. But, and then you come back and review it and fix it and whatever else you need to do.

00:34:59.920 Yeah. So applying the opportunity to train in a wide variety of circumstances and then get people

00:35:05.760 to understand. I think when I say that, whether it's your family or your business,

00:35:12.580 you have to look for those opportunities to, to train, right? You got to look for those

00:35:17.980 opportunities to train. Yeah. You know, what's funny is I hear people say, and I think they have

00:35:21.900 this completely backwards. They'll say things like, you know, I, you know, I don't want,

00:35:25.600 I don't want them to feel bad about their performance. And they say, and they act as if

00:35:29.800 they're so worried about the other person. But I honestly believe in most cases that the reason

00:35:33.280 people don't do this, they don't have the hard conversations. They don't allow their children

00:35:37.560 to lead and then potentially fail or their teammates to fail is not to salvage that person.

00:35:43.020 Right. But to save themselves. Yeah. Like, have you ever been at it? That's what it is. Yeah. I

00:35:46.720 mean, have you ever been at like a, um, like a speech or, or a comedy routine and the guy's just

00:35:52.660 like floppy and you feel embarrassed for that individual and it makes you uncomfortable. That's

00:35:58.200 why people don't let other people, cause it's not for the other person. It's like, I don't want to

00:36:02.440 feel embarrassed or, and they're trying to salvage themselves. It's very selfish, super selfish.

00:36:08.160 It's, it's difficult, right? It is difficult to be that, that person or to play the, you know,

00:36:15.740 the, I don't want to be the bad guy. You know, you know, that's the unfortunate thing is you're,

00:36:21.140 you're going to have to be the bad guy in somebody's eyes. When you're taking responsibility

00:36:24.940 for your actions, you're making decisions, you're leading and managing, you're going to have

00:36:30.000 to be the bad guy. That's just, now you don't have to be the bad guy all the time, but there

00:36:34.420 are direct circumstances where people are not going to agree with your decision and that will

00:36:39.860 create conflict. And then you have to be able to navigate, navigate through the conflict.

00:36:44.740 Um, and you can't shy away from that, right? It's, uh, you know, it's, it's so interesting.

00:36:52.880 I think when I, when I think about conflict management leadership and these, these are, these are

00:36:58.120 really interesting things that we could unpack probably for hours. Sure. Yeah. Um, but conflict

00:37:04.660 is, is something that people are so afraid of and there is something, and I'm sure that there's

00:37:11.180 plenty of, of, uh, consultants out there that probably get, you get to build millions of dollars

00:37:16.940 a year on like conflict management, positive communication. It's like, or you can just suck

00:37:22.240 it up. And I do this a lot where I just bring people in. I'm like, Hey, what's your problem?

00:37:25.740 Hmm. What's your problem? What do you mean? I'm like, come on, come on. We know, come on.

00:37:30.220 What's your problem. What's going on? Like, what's the issue there? And then they'll like

00:37:34.300 dick dance around a little bit and they're tap dancing. You're like, come on out with it.

00:37:38.440 Let's go. Like, just dig it out of them. And I don't know how many times I've had to dig

00:37:43.760 stuff out of people. And then it's like, well, everybody else got this in the office and you

00:37:51.020 know, I didn't get it. And then you're like, yeah, because you failed the last two quarters

00:37:57.260 in a row. And you know, I didn't feel it was acceptable for you to do that. I apologize.

00:38:03.040 I didn't communicate that clearly, but I felt I did. And they're like, well, no, you did,

00:38:06.740 but I just don't like that. I still feel bad. Okay. Well, you know, yeah. Well, suck it up

00:38:12.240 buttercup. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Well, the cool thing about doing it that way

00:38:15.860 is it's hard, especially if you've never done it. Like we have a lot of guys who listen to the

00:38:19.380 podcast that are, they're more passive in nature. They're the, you know, the proverbial,

00:38:23.420 you know, quote unquote, nice guy. And so they don't even know how to have like a semi

00:38:28.400 confrontational conversation with somebody. But the interesting thing about it is if you do it right

00:38:33.240 and you actually have a real conversation with your child or your wife or your employee or whoever,

00:38:39.780 your business partner, whoever it is, it gets easier the next time. Yeah.

00:38:44.100 Cause the next time you're like, oh, okay, well that was uncomfortable,

00:38:46.780 but it wasn't the end of the world and actually things improved. And so every time you do it,

00:38:51.180 it gets easier. If you don't do it that way, everything else gets harder as you progress

00:38:56.740 because there's this weird expectation or like, we don't, you know, we don't talk about that stuff.

00:39:02.580 We don't talk about that. Yeah. And then it just gets buried and nothing ever gets resolved or

00:39:06.020 worked through. When that happens, it's so interesting to me because like what you just explained

00:39:11.800 is all forms of communication across the board, because there are times when

00:39:16.280 you're digging out the problems, right? You got to dig them out. And then there are times when

00:39:21.700 you're like, I don't know what the problem is and I can't quite address what the issue is until I go

00:39:26.980 to work trying to figure out how to even address it and what I'm dealing with. And is it a, you know,

00:39:33.560 is it a personality conflict within a couple of different people? Is it something that I might be

00:39:37.660 doing? Is it something like personally that's going on in their lives? Is it, you know, so

00:39:41.640 it's so interesting how you have to kind of plug all those things in and, and, and having productive

00:39:50.140 arguments in, to your point, people don't want to do that. I think I was telling you, well, yeah,

00:39:59.040 yesterday I was telling you, I used to, I used to terminate people because I had managers that

00:40:04.680 didn't want to do it. So it's like, yeah, I just sent them my office. It's not a big deal. Like,

00:40:08.020 I'm just, Hey, today's your last day. Here's, you know, here's a sucker.

00:40:13.040 And you were comfortable doing that because you've, you've done that and you've come to terms with

00:40:18.520 that. Yeah. And it's not easy, obviously, but yeah. I mean, you don't take joy. I mean,

00:40:24.200 maybe for some, maybe, maybe if you had to let somebody go, you might take joy, but for the most

00:40:28.260 part, you don't take joy in it. No, not at all. And you don't have to do it very often. And most of the

00:40:32.020 time, the conversations you have to have are months before that, that are the difficult ones

00:40:36.260 that are saying, this is the expectation. You're failing to meet minimum expectation. This is how

00:40:43.360 we're going to get your, you to this point. And then if you don't, this is your final warning.

00:40:49.300 Right. Right. So you can make those conversations easier by kind of laying in your performance

00:40:54.280 improvement plan, your performance improvement plan for yourself, because I've found myself in

00:40:58.960 this situation a lot where I'm the person that's not communicating the right intent or commander's

00:41:05.480 intent. And then I'm just kind of moving around in my life. Just assuming people know what the hell

00:41:10.480 I'm talking about. They're all confused and everything else. I don't know what the, I don't

00:41:13.260 know what the hell he's doing. I, what? And then, then you have to come back to yourself and have the

00:41:19.620 same conversation you would have with somebody else. Put yourself on a performance improvement

00:41:24.080 plan. Schedule your meetings, put your topics out earlier, figure out how I'm going to do this. And,

00:41:30.280 and it's, and it's, and it, and it keeps going. Right. It never stops. Never ends. It never ends. It's not

00:41:36.900 as if you're going to reach a point where it's called communication nirvana and you're just like

00:41:41.440 the best. I'm, I'm, I'm here. I'm really good. I'm the best. Here I am. I'm the best at communicating.

00:41:47.100 You know, it's like, Oh shit, I made it, you know? Yeah. So when you started Black Rifle,

00:41:54.600 you started in 2015, right? Yeah. Yeah. January, 2015 to, to include there's coffee over there.

00:42:00.500 There's some, uh, good from another, I could just got these handsome green berets cruising

00:42:06.240 around here. Just like regular green berets ready to like pour coffee. Yeah. Pour coffee for you. Thanks,

00:42:11.160 man. That's nice. Yeah, it is. Yeah. It's super nice. Um, so as we're talking,

00:42:17.080 thinking about working with people, communicating, having difficult conversations, I mean, this

00:42:24.120 isn't really, maybe it is, this is something that you really thought you'd be doing, you

00:42:27.820 know, five years, six years later now. Uh, yes and no. You know, I always knew it was going

00:42:33.780 to be some type of variant. Um, this is way more complex and way more fun than I thought

00:42:42.700 it would be. It is now. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's cause it's a complex problem. So

00:42:47.060 it's, it's complex problem solving. It's split decision-making is strategic thinking. It's

00:42:51.720 all of these great things. And so it's almost like I'm a kid in a candy store every day because

00:42:58.060 I get to solve problems. That's what I do. And I'm kind of the master editor and I can always

00:43:06.100 find energy to do this stuff because it's so interesting across the board that I don't have

00:43:16.360 to motivate. I there's, there's, there's zero kind of me getting out of bed, giving myself

00:43:22.960 a pep talk. It's like, dude, I'm do this. Yeah. I'm like rolling out of bed in the morning

00:43:26.260 going, hell yeah. I get another day at black rifle. This is awesome. Yeah. Like this is,

00:43:31.000 uh, this is going to be great. So are there days though, that you have felt like that in

00:43:34.480 the past where you're like that maybe you've created a circumstance or a situation where

00:43:38.340 you're like, what the hell? Like, this is what I created for myself and I don't want to

00:43:42.040 do this and have had to pivot. Yeah. I, you know, a couple months ago that we went through

00:43:47.560 kind of a PR issue and it's just kind of beat up from, you know, the left and the right and

00:43:52.700 kind of fringe elements of, of, uh, the internet. And it's not as if I was like, you know, in

00:44:01.580 a low point, I would say it was just like, we're used to winning. Right. So we're used to winning

00:44:06.020 and, you know, being positive and injecting positivity. And then, yeah. And then when

00:44:10.660 you have, you know, an active misinformation campaigns that are kind of running in tandem

00:44:16.900 from both like sides of the internet from everywhere. Uh, and then it's just, you know,

00:44:23.400 when you're trying to kind of push back against a false narrative, it's, it becomes

00:44:30.420 interesting because people start to think, or there's a section, right? This is your

00:44:35.620 business and this is who you are. And this is what they've reduced your, your, your, your

00:44:41.180 work, the encyclopedia of your work down to like a moment in time. Right. This one thing

00:44:46.340 that was said or happened or whatever. Yeah. Right. Sure. And, you know, I, I did. And I

00:44:52.220 think the questions that I had for myself and my business was, it wasn't necessarily about

00:44:58.120 my intent. I don't question that. Um, you know, I questioned whether or not I even

00:45:03.960 want some of my customers to be, to be drinking my product or, or, or wearing my gear.

00:45:12.400 Why? What makes you say that? Uh, because I think there's, there's, there was a section

00:45:18.160 of the brand that might've been hijacked by different. I mean, I, I saw, um, Blackbeard

00:45:25.500 delight, which is my, my coffee rose from Blackbeard. I saw that patch being worn by both

00:45:31.680 guys on the Antifa side and both on the, the alt-right side. Right. And I'm like, Hey man,

00:45:39.260 I wore that in service of my country. I didn't wear it out on the fucking streets, you know,

00:45:45.580 trying to drag people into fistfights. Yeah. And you know, I did, I definitely gave up for

00:45:50.540 these weird, you know, fringe ideas that aren't helpful to anybody. When it makes me sick

00:45:55.260 too, because, uh, there, there are elements where if people, for instance, right, if people

00:46:00.740 are wearing a piece of clothing of mine and they're yelling, uh, traitor to like the law

00:46:08.480 enforcement community or the people that serve our country. Yeah. Uh, I'm not on board with

00:46:13.400 that. Just plain and simply like you have missed, you have misinterpreted or grossly misinterpreted

00:46:19.160 what, what, what my brand is and who, who is it, who, who is it that we're trying to serve? Like

00:46:27.640 I carried a rifle for a living and a professional capacity for my, my, my adult life and the country

00:46:35.900 as a whole, just the United States. I, I, I love the country and I'm, I'm galvanized, I'm galvanized

00:46:44.400 and bonded to the people that serve their communities and love their communities. We were having that

00:46:48.640 conversation yesterday. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear anti-law enforcement rhetoric

00:46:57.360 because I have so many friends that are serving in that capacity after they've already served in

00:47:03.520 the military. And I know these guys. And so they're on the streets and they're taking it from both,

00:47:09.100 you know, fringe elements on the left, fringe elements on the right. They're caught in the

00:47:12.840 crossfire. Yeah. It, it saddens me because I think that the country's better than that.

00:47:18.640 Um, how do you, um, how do you deal with that though? So, you know, you have, you have these

00:47:24.880 people who let's, let's just call it a misrepresentation of, of your brand and your values.

00:47:31.160 I mean, it's like, it's not like you can say, don't, I don't want that person wearing that,

00:47:35.620 you know, like, or how do you qualify? It's like, how do you, how do you work that so that you

00:47:40.860 maintain the integrity of your brand based on what it is you guys are trying to accomplish?

00:47:44.600 Not being hijacked.

00:47:46.480 No, you have to just communicate the brand more effectively. And I think we have great brand

00:47:52.080 partners. We have great people that we do content marketing with and yeah, they're, most of those

00:48:00.200 people are friends and most of those people represent the brand really well. Sure. Yeah.

00:48:05.480 Um, and then, and those people you can select, right? Like you, you can vet those individuals,

00:48:10.420 they're friends, you know, um, you know what they're all about. And then there's just other

00:48:14.160 people like we're talking, you just can't vet them. You can't vet them. And there's always going

00:48:17.140 to be, you know, 340 million people in the United States. There's a, there's a section of the country,

00:48:23.000 whether they're Democrat or Republican or independent, or, you know, uh, they identify as a sloth.

00:48:28.380 They're, they're going to be crazy, right? There's going to be some, some guys that are just,

00:48:32.960 or people that are crazy. And you can't worry about that. At the end of the day,

00:48:37.660 it's not as if we're asking people for affiliation before they buy a hat or a shirt.

00:48:43.440 Right. Of course. But what you can do is you can get, you know, get out and, you know,

00:48:49.440 talk and communicate and build relationships and build content and media around what you do believe

00:48:55.320 in. Yeah. Well, I like that you guys are doing that because I think there's a lot of organizations

00:49:00.500 and conventional wisdom. It doesn't seem so much anymore, but conventional wisdom, especially in

00:49:04.640 the business world says, you know, don't take a side, don't talk about these things,

00:49:09.280 just sell your price. And you guys have actually done the exact opposite. We've, we've done that

00:49:13.300 too. Yeah. He's like, no, we're actually going to talk about real issues that are important,

00:49:17.540 that we believe that we know aren't always going to be the most popular discussions that are going

00:49:21.380 to be had. And it goes against conventional wisdom, but I would just, I actually wish more

00:49:26.160 people would get behind what they actually believe as opposed to like, I don't, I don't want to go

00:49:31.780 there. I don't want to touch that. Like talk about it. Like these are the real things we ought to be

00:49:35.260 talking about. Well, and the other thing is, is people miss misinterpret, you know, my political

00:49:40.320 views for the company's political views all the time. I'm like, there's 400 plus people in this

00:49:45.640 company. Right. And you know, whether I, whether we're having, we, and we have complex, whether they're

00:49:52.840 political or social discussions in the hallways and in the offices of our company every day.

00:49:58.200 Uh, I like that. I like to hear varying opinions. It would be super weird for me to have a company

00:50:06.680 where we were just a bunch of, you know, bearded white guys watching or walking lockstep in the

00:50:13.720 same ideology. That would be one, it would be super weird too. It would be very boring. Like,

00:50:20.140 and I think there's a lot of companies that are like that where it's like, no, we all, and,

00:50:24.280 and even if there's some sort of, you know, rogue employee, they won't communicate their thoughts

00:50:29.560 because they could actually get fired. Yeah. Right. They could actually lose their job or not

00:50:33.880 just their job, but their career could be completely wiped out just because they happen to believe the

00:50:38.240 wrong thing politically or, you know, say something that maybe wasn't intended the way that it quite

00:50:44.560 came across and it was a mistake, you know? Yeah. Oh yeah. And I, and I think there's a,

00:50:50.360 that's what I think like a lot of people maybe thought the company was before. It was just,

00:50:56.600 you know, uh, maybe they just thought that's what it was. And it was like, and I, and I was truly,

00:51:02.420 there was a section of, uh, the customers that were emailing at times where it was like, man,

00:51:07.380 I'm embarrassed of some of these people, you know, because they were saying, you know,

00:51:12.060 derogatory or racist things. And I was like, Whoa, you know, one, that's not the company that we built.

00:51:18.160 Yeah. That's not what I believe, nor it says we, the people, right, right there in this fabulous

00:51:25.140 document that everybody can read and everybody should read. Yeah. Everybody should read, you know,

00:51:30.580 uh, and you know, the, the gross misinterpretation of this is, is, is interesting because it's always

00:51:38.900 based on the quality of work and what you're bringing to the table has nothing to do with,

00:51:42.380 uh, you know, your genitalia or your race, right? It's just like, Hey, we're all getting this

00:51:48.600 together. We're going to work through this problem and may the best person ultimately rise the

00:51:53.040 occasion. I think most people believe that it has nothing to do with your sex has nothing to do with

00:51:58.020 the color of your skin. Most. And I, I think most people, the overwhelming majority of people believe

00:52:02.960 that. But then I think there's these actors over here who are like, let's bring this into the

00:52:06.500 equation. And it's like, it's, and they start riling or like shaking the hornet's nest. It's

00:52:11.540 like, it's never been about that. And the only reason it's about that now is because you're

00:52:16.360 deliberately trying to make it about that. And it has nothing to do with race or sex or misogyny or

00:52:21.960 whatever other term, homophobia, transphobia, whatever phobia this week. It has nothing to do

00:52:27.860 with that at all, but you're trying to rile people up for either for their attention or for

00:52:34.740 entertainment or for their money. Cause if you get them riled up, then they'll, you know,

00:52:38.980 band with you. Hopefully it's like, it's so infuriating. It's like, we've never had this

00:52:43.500 problem, but people are making it a problem. And we talked about earlier because they're making

00:52:49.180 dumb shit the problem because they don't have anything like grander to worry about.

00:52:54.240 Yeah. And it's, it's weird to see how this is happening, right? This is, this is a national

00:53:03.220 conversation. It's evolving all the time. So, you know, whether you're hearing it from the left

00:53:07.460 or the right in some circumstances, uh, it happens where people are amplifying pieces of information

00:53:14.880 and they're spinning each other, they're gaslighting. Yeah. And it's interesting because

00:53:19.660 this plays directly into our real strategic enemies. They, they really benefit from this. So

00:53:25.000 they benefit from the direct manipulation of information, the gaslighting on both the left

00:53:30.240 and the right, the massive misinformation campaigns across the board. And there are a

00:53:34.960 few things where you're like, well, that's, you know, that's just crazy. Right. You know,

00:53:40.320 like defund the police that, that, that's just a crazy idea. I don't even know where they came

00:53:44.880 up with this. It's crazy. There's people that like legitimately believe it though. And, and you

00:53:51.720 talk, I've had conversations on social media with people who are self, self-described

00:53:57.020 socialist. I'm like, yeah, what is wrong with you? You know, like, have you, do you even know what

00:54:02.560 you're saying? Have you studied it? Have you looked? And the answer of course is no, no. And, and then

00:54:09.280 those move off into their echo chambers. And obviously we're so involved in some of this

00:54:14.000 because of people being kicked off of social platforms and like deep platforming or parlor

00:54:18.960 being shut down, all these different things that are going on. But ultimately they don't have

00:54:24.940 world war II. They don't have a great depression. You know, the, the, the global war on terror is

00:54:29.640 basically just white noise now. Right. Which I'm not reducing it. I mean, I was an active participant

00:54:35.160 in the global war on terror, but you never hear anything on the news about it. Uh, you don't hear

00:54:40.640 about the guys that are in direct conflict every day overseas. It's just white noise and it's constantly

00:54:46.420 playing in the background, right? It's just the music that's playing in the American background. And then

00:54:50.700 you amplify these arbitrary, somewhat ridiculous issues and make them these hills that, you know,

00:54:58.160 the, the, the Twitter mobs are going to die on, you know, I, I guess, I mean, if that's, if that's an

00:55:04.780 issue, but really like we have really big societal problems and international issues that we could

00:55:10.460 focus on, you know, like this stupid debate that people are constantly having where, you know, the

00:55:16.860 gender debate, right. That's constantly going on in the background. It's like, there is no difference

00:55:20.740 between male or female or whatever. I'm like, okay, if you want to participate in that debate and go

00:55:25.700 down the rabbit hole and, you know, unpack all that and maybe take multiple, you know, courses on

00:55:30.840 human evolution and gender and gender theory and all that, like, yeah, that sounds

00:55:35.920 crazy to me. One, like that's a, that's a, it's a, there's a way we already know the answers to

00:55:43.540 we got it. That's already well established. We got it. Right. And it's like, and I'm not saying

00:55:48.920 that, you know, I'm not saying that I know everything about this. I'm just like, I've been

00:55:54.740 a participant as a human for a long period of time. And it's pretty easy to differentiate between

00:55:59.520 male and female and then the in-betweens, right? Sure. It's pretty easy. And I'm not discriminating

00:56:04.600 against anybody in that circumstance. I'm just not going to go down the rabbit hole with this and

00:56:10.140 try to be drug into a national conversation, which ultimately I'm like,

00:56:13.540 is it going to pay a positive return or should I spend my time focused on a subculture and a

00:56:21.860 group of veterans and, you know, my subculture and my veterans to increase the positivity in

00:56:27.620 their lives? Because I know a lot about the subculture. I know a lot about the people. I

00:56:31.920 know where I can have a positive impact. If I just don't want to participate in this conversation,

00:56:35.720 go, Hey, yeah, male, female, and the other, by all means, whatever, can we do the three? And

00:56:41.280 then can you just be cool with me just saying like, that's the three, you know what I mean?

00:56:45.000 Like, no, no, no, we can't be cool with that. Yeah. But you know, there's also, I think a

00:56:50.860 balance between being involved in, and I actually, the way you said it was actually interesting.

00:56:55.180 Cause it was said really well about, I'm going to focus on this. And then it leads me to believe

00:56:58.660 that there's other people who want to focus on this and people who want to focus on these other

00:57:02.040 things. And so collectively we're all focusing on issues, but I also think there's a tendency,

00:57:07.100 and I know I fall into this, it's not a trap, but it's my personality where I say, just leave me out

00:57:13.380 of it. I'm going to go over here and focus on my guys and my family, and I'm going to work in my

00:57:18.520 little community. And you know, this is my bubble, right? But then that also opens up threats that do

00:57:26.180 actually need to be addressed. And so it's, the answer isn't to completely isolate yourself

00:57:31.320 or to completely immerse yourself in the chaos. It's like, where's the balance between being

00:57:38.180 informed and helping on a community or city or state or national level, and then being involved

00:57:44.540 with your community, like you said. Well, and we only have so much time here, right? We only have

00:57:50.560 so much time, so much physical capability and intellectual capacity. We can't know everything.

00:57:57.440 Like it's completely impossible. And I think what's happened with people's access to the internet

00:58:03.420 and Google is that one person's hill they want to die on or their issue, that becomes something

00:58:14.060 important to them and that group of people. And their expectation is that everybody else is going

00:58:19.200 to know. It should be just as important to everybody. It should be just as important to everybody else.

00:58:22.900 And then when you tell people to go like pound sand, like, that's not my issue. I don't care about it.

00:58:27.520 Then it's like, oh, you don't care about these issues. And it's like, no, man, I sensitive and

00:58:31.640 it's a microaggression. Yeah, it's right. Yeah. No, no, we're not saying anything about that.

00:58:36.060 We just don't care about it. I just want to like, I live my life and like do the good that I can do.

00:58:41.620 And I'm only so smart and only so physically capable. So I can't solve all the world's problems,

00:58:46.180 nor can I know everything about everything. So can we just kind of like agree that there's an expectation

00:58:51.720 that people are just going to be dumb about some shit? No, but I don't, I mean, you, you said that,

00:58:56.460 you say that and you said it before. I, I on it, like, can we just agree that there's just the

00:59:00.080 three and can we just agree? And the answer is no, you can't because there's a bunch of guys like us

00:59:06.280 who are like, yeah, I just actually want to be left alone. Just leave me alone. Let's follow the law of

00:59:12.040 the land. Let's, let's adhere to the constitution. And then let's let have some experiences, put some

00:59:18.700 money in the bank account, you know, have some meaningful relationships and like, that's it.

00:59:22.960 But then there's other people who are like, no, I actually don't want you to have that because I

00:59:28.560 don't have it. And so you must've taken it from me. And so now you're my enemy. So we say, can't

00:59:34.660 you just leave it alone? And there's other people are like, no, no, I'm not going to leave it alone.

00:59:39.420 Man, just a quick break from the conversation today. Uh, I wanted to talk with you about what we're

00:59:43.700 going to be addressing for the month of February inside the iron council, uh, which is challenging

00:59:49.180 each other to create and formulate our perfect day. You know, of course the quote unquote perfect

00:59:55.280 day is subjective. Uh, but we're going to be holding each other to, uh, developing and building

01:00:03.340 the perfect day for the entire month and testing and experimenting with systems and strategies,

01:00:08.560 tools, resources, so that we can maximize each day to its fullest. The most successful

01:00:13.880 men on the planet have the same 24 hours. They just know how to use it more effectively than

01:00:18.920 those who don't. Uh, so this is going to cover from the time that we wake up to the way we go

01:00:24.580 about our duties, uh, to the way that we cap our day and carry momentum over to the next. Uh,

01:00:30.840 the reality is that each of us, myself included, uh, can squeeze more productivity out of every

01:00:36.120 hour that we have. And it's our goal inside the iron council to show you exactly how to do that

01:00:41.600 through accountability and teaching and instruction. Of course, the brotherhood that comes with it.

01:00:45.600 So if you're interested in creating and formulating your perfect day, uh, you can learn more and you

01:00:51.220 can join us in the iron council at order of men.com slash iron council. Again, that's order of man.com

01:00:57.540 slash iron council. Do that after the show, because for now we're going to get back to it with Evan

01:01:02.280 Hafer. Unfortunately, you're right. You're exactly right. There's millions of people that have decided,

01:01:11.300 and this is the thing that always breaks my brain when I start really unpacking it and trying to

01:01:16.480 figure it out. And I don't understand why there's a group of people in the United States that are

01:01:22.240 trying so hard to control another group of people. They want, and I'm saying either side,

01:01:30.420 whoever it is, right. It's an, it's a political party affiliation and they're trying to enforce

01:01:37.320 and take away Liberty from some section, right. Some other section of the country. Right. And my

01:01:45.120 answer is, can we just, if we, if we could all just agree that we want to be free, because that's

01:01:53.560 a premise of a lot of these different arguments is this is right, or this is wrong. And it's like,

01:01:58.520 well, how about we just don't have the government weigh in on some of this? That's exactly right.

01:02:02.800 I even think that with like gay marriage people. What about gay marriage? I'm like, look, I'm

01:02:06.700 straight. I like women. My wife and I have been married for almost 17 years now. I believe in

01:02:12.040 traditional marriage and the nuclear family. Well, we don't believe in that. Cool. Cool. Then go do

01:02:16.160 your thing. Go do your thing. The government doesn't need to be involved in that. Right. Like if you

01:02:19.720 love a dude, then cool, go do that. That doesn't impact me. Doesn't impact me. As long as it's not

01:02:25.020 kids or animals that I care about, like, I don't care what you do with your genitalia at

01:02:31.460 the end of the day. Like I really don't. And that's been this national conversation from,

01:02:36.780 you know, conservatives and liberals alike, where it's like, we want this and we want to

01:02:43.100 force you, you know, for instance, in the circumstances of it has to be illegal. Like why,

01:02:49.500 why do we care if the government's involved in this whatsoever? We actually, we should be actively

01:02:54.640 looking for, from my perspective, we should always be at actively looking for things that we can take

01:03:00.380 off the government's plate. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You guys don't want to be involved in this. Let's go

01:03:04.140 ahead and just take that back. Let's not do that. Let's not do that. And instead of both parties

01:03:10.580 complaining about, and I always use marijuana as the, uh, the example because it's a liberal issue,

01:03:16.780 right. And then conservatives push back against it. And, uh, and I kind of land in the bucket of

01:03:25.160 it's about freedom for me. Right. And if you want to, you know, smoke marijuana, I don't think the

01:03:32.060 federal government should be, and my tax dollars should be going to pay or subsidize people being

01:03:37.180 incarcerated for it. I just don't think that's a, an appropriate expense for my taxpayer dollars.

01:03:42.980 I agree with that. I just don't think it's appropriate. So, you know, when we go to the

01:03:48.480 liberal side of the conversation, like it should be legal, it should be legal, it should be legal.

01:03:51.900 I'm like, yeah, sure. I agree. Conservatives are like, no, it shouldn't be. It's like, but why,

01:03:56.340 why do you want to spend my taxpayer dollars telling somebody else that they can't smoke

01:04:01.760 marijuana when it's legal in like half these States or whatever it is? Like, it just doesn't

01:04:05.880 make sense to me. But then we get to guns. Yeah. Right. And then it flips. Yeah. True. Yeah. True.

01:04:11.660 Then it flips. It's like the liberals are trying so hard, or at least a section of liberal America

01:04:18.880 is trying so hard to take our second amendment. Right. Right. No, no, no, nobody's coming after

01:04:25.120 your guns. Yeah. Nobody. Right. And they're trying so hard. And it's like, can you guys just leave

01:04:33.440 us the fuck alone? Like leave, like leave us all alone. Can you, you, you can, you can keep

01:04:38.900 your marijuana. Can we keep our guns? Can we go, come to the table and just like broker

01:04:43.060 a deal, you know, like keep your mom, keep your pot. We get to keep our guns. Can we all

01:04:47.920 be cool? You guys can marry, you know, anybody you want. Keep your marijuana. Uh, I don't know

01:04:54.480 all the other things that you might want to do. There's an infinite number of things.

01:04:57.340 There's an infinite. Yes, of course. But Hey, just don't mess with my guns.

01:05:00.920 Don't mess with me. Well, the other thing is, you know, like, so I kind of fall on both

01:05:06.080 sides of this conversation a lot of times because it's like freedom, freedom of speech.

01:05:10.280 Yeah. Hot topic right now. I tend to agree with the ACLU circumstance or at least their

01:05:18.840 position, which is free speech needs to be protected at all point. Sure. So it doesn't

01:05:22.860 matter. You know, free speech is not a government buffet where they get to decide what you're

01:05:29.000 going to eat. Right. It's like, no, this is free. This is not, this is free. This is not

01:05:33.240 all of it is, even if you're uncomfortable with it, people say some crazy shit. I'm

01:05:36.740 like, I don't agree with that. In fact, yeah, that's bad. So, but still you should be able

01:05:41.820 to say, unless you're inciting violence or actively threatening as different. So that's

01:05:45.940 right. That's threatened intimidation. Exactly. But ideas, you know, with, with the first amendment

01:05:53.540 and the second amendment, obviously your bill of rights. When we look at these things, we

01:05:57.340 look at how important it is to maintain individual sovereignty. Right. Uh, and looking for those

01:06:06.840 opportunities to regain, you know, our, our liberty ultimately, um, you know, the, the, the

01:06:15.540 second amendment and the first amendment, both, and then you can't just press mute. It doesn't

01:06:22.940 work that way. And when you're trying to silence and subjugate a certain section of our society,

01:06:28.900 which ultimately I think the government should have nothing to do with. I think it's a super

01:06:33.860 bad idea. If we keep asking our government officials to make decisions because it's a

01:06:38.040 once one size fits all 50 state solution, which is just going to be a really ill fitting

01:06:44.420 shoe at the end of the day. But see, the thing I don't understand is I don't, I don't understand

01:06:48.660 how so many people believe that the government, which is comprised of flawed individuals, just

01:06:55.260 like ourselves. Yeah. Will somehow rise above the temptations and the nasty and horrible things

01:07:03.800 that we as humans, you know, individuals do that somehow the government will be above that,

01:07:08.860 that they'll be able to be virtuous. It's like, no, like there's no, that's a collection of people

01:07:15.960 that are just as flawed as you and me. And, and with that power, they are going to exercise that

01:07:22.120 power against you. And you know what, when it falls in your favor, you're going to be really excited

01:07:26.260 when it's used against you and it will be used against you. You're going to be pretty upset that

01:07:31.200 you allowed that to happen. Like the government isn't virtuous just because it's the government.

01:07:36.560 It's comprised of people. And some of those people are corrupt and nasty. Others are not,

01:07:40.860 but it's people. It's people and it's systems and it's bureaucratic and it's flawed. And it's,

01:07:50.220 so when you, when you know that about the system, right, why do you keep going back to the system?

01:07:58.940 It's like the system isn't perfect. It's not a, it's not a perfect solution for everybody.

01:08:04.680 And it's been so interesting for me to hear these conversations over the last couple of years,

01:08:09.580 because you know, you'll have, uh, well, for instance, just like kind of retracing it, but

01:08:16.480 you know, you had the left that was anti-war, anti-war, anti-war, right? Unless it's a Democrat

01:08:26.760 in office and then they're like pro-war, pro-war, pro-war. And then it's the Republicans in office.

01:08:31.940 Then it's like, it's, it, and then the Republican, you know, in Trump's circumstance, he's saying,

01:08:38.020 we got to pull our troops back. We got to have a, Oh, but now we're pro pro-war because really what

01:08:43.500 matters is they're anti-president or party or party. And so they're showing their cards.

01:08:51.700 Yes. So they're all showing their cards. And as, as American citizens, we should all be paying

01:08:55.540 attention going, dude, they're just showing their cards. They're showing us what they're all about.

01:09:00.520 Right. They're voting uniformly in lockstep with their party.

01:09:03.520 George Washington. Have you, have you ever read his farewell address?

01:09:07.720 I haven't.

01:09:08.260 You should go through his farewell address because he, he warns of things. And one of his

01:09:11.580 biggest warnings is the two party system being pitted against each other and used against each

01:09:17.120 other. So as the first president of the United States, he said, this will happen. And he predicted

01:09:21.780 the two party system and what it would eventually do to itself.

01:09:25.200 Really?

01:09:25.460 Yeah. It's really interesting.

01:09:27.000 Well, that's, I'll have to go back and read that. I'm actually reading his biography right now.

01:09:31.480 Yeah. Fascinating. It's a fascinating individual, for sure. And yeah, as I start to look at kind

01:09:37.440 of politics today and I've been flashing back, I just went through Alexander Hamilton and Benjamin

01:09:42.640 Franklin, George Washington, Adams, and just the founding fathers. And I think it's, it's

01:09:48.720 important for people to, especially me, I don't know of everybody who cares, you know,

01:09:52.780 just me, just to kind of calibrate the conversation too, because like politics, even in as George

01:10:03.020 Washington was going through his second term, he was being mud sucked and, you know, hit

01:10:09.620 below the belt by newspapers and guys within his own administration. And like, he was just

01:10:15.520 being mud sucked and is wearing him out. Like it wore him out. Ultimately, physically, emotionally,

01:10:21.340 he was beat down.

01:10:23.340 He was beat down. And I thought about that because politics hasn't changed, right? It

01:10:29.000 really hasn't.

01:10:29.580 It's gotten worse. I mean, at the root, I think it's the same, but it's worse because

01:10:33.360 it's easier to get after people.

01:10:36.180 Well, and if you have a blue check mark, that means you know something.

01:10:39.000 Right.

01:10:39.440 Which is, that's just flawed.

01:10:41.900 Of course.

01:10:42.160 Right. So it's like, what does Cardi B really have to tell us about politics in America?

01:10:46.900 Well, the other thing is who gave, who gave, again, this goes to people, who gave the person

01:10:50.840 the blue check? Another person.

01:10:53.100 Yeah. Another person.

01:10:54.040 That is flawed and has bias and isn't smart.

01:10:58.160 It's like some person in a cubicle in Silicon Valley, like pressing buttons because they have

01:11:03.340 a news story that links to this.

01:11:05.220 Yeah. They meet the criteria and now you have a blue check mark or you made an album of some

01:11:10.620 sort or it doesn't mean that person has any, any substance or experience that they can

01:11:17.880 admittedly interject into a conversation with, with any, with any real substance.

01:11:25.180 Right.

01:11:25.320 Like there's no substantive argument that they, they can interject and say things that make

01:11:30.160 any sense. And when we look at the national conversation, just in general, I, I, I have

01:11:39.660 a hard time kind of listening to, to some of these people, especially if they're political

01:11:44.680 pundits or even people that are talking about politics or anything business related. Like

01:11:50.720 what is this person's background? How can they weigh in on this and have any justification

01:11:56.200 for the information they're putting out unless I know the person? And I think that's why

01:12:01.520 podcasts are so incredible because like, I know you, I know Jocko, I know sitting down,

01:12:08.580 I know these guys and I know their experience. I know their personal experience. And I know

01:12:14.040 that if you say something, I'm going to listen.

01:12:17.620 Sure.

01:12:18.020 Oh yeah.

01:12:18.560 There's some credibility there.

01:12:18.960 Ryan's got a good point.

01:12:19.980 Yeah.

01:12:21.260 Well, I think we, I think we tend to look for the path of least resistance. So I'll give

01:12:24.940 an example. I was, as I was flying out here, I got off the plane and I saw this young couple

01:12:30.240 in front of me. They were on the plane with me. They were a couple of rows ahead of me

01:12:32.900 and I had to go to baggage claim. So I'm walking down the thing and I realized, I don't know

01:12:38.780 why it hit me, but I realized I wasn't looking at signs of where the baggage claim was. I

01:12:42.620 was following them and it hit, it was weird. It hit me all of a sudden. I'm like, why the

01:12:47.040 hell am I following them?

01:12:47.980 Right.

01:12:48.720 Well, I'm following them because they look like they know where they're going and they clearly

01:12:51.620 knew where they were going and they were on the plane with me.

01:12:54.460 Right.

01:12:55.100 So like, I'll just follow them.

01:12:56.660 Just following them.

01:12:57.240 And then I realized before I, as I came to this conclusion that they were leaving and

01:13:03.980 they didn't have to go to the baggage claim because they were, you know, they didn't have

01:13:07.460 any check bags or whatever.

01:13:08.840 Right.

01:13:09.180 I'm like, that's what we do.

01:13:10.740 Yeah.

01:13:11.200 We follow these people because we think they know or, you know, they, maybe they're credible

01:13:16.900 in one area of life. And so we just assume that because they're a good singer, a good

01:13:22.260 football player that now they know politics and now, and we just follow them blindly and

01:13:27.100 they're not even going to the baggage claim.

01:13:29.360 Yeah. They're not, they're not going to the same spot.

01:13:31.820 Exactly.

01:13:32.100 It's like what, you know, if we follow a sports star or, you know, a NASCAR driver or a musician,

01:13:42.780 there's truly, depending on, on, on the circumstance, they might not have anything of substance they

01:13:49.000 have to say.

01:13:49.540 Okay. Now I don't know if I have anything of substance that people would ever want to

01:13:54.520 listen to either, but at the end of the day.

01:13:57.320 No, you do. I think you, so, but you recognize it too. I think is like you speak in your lane,

01:14:02.760 right? And that's not to say that you can't have opinions about other things, but when it

01:14:06.140 comes to business, clearly you have some things to share about business because you're running

01:14:09.940 a successful business, but it's, you get into problems when, and I'll have people, when I was

01:14:14.600 in the financial planning industry, I had people, you know, I'd sit down with them and talk

01:14:18.400 with them, a young couple, for example, and we'd work through their strategies and, you

01:14:22.360 know, I was educated to talk about this stuff and then say, Oh, well, you know, I really

01:14:26.440 want to go talk with my folks. I'm like, well, tell me about your folks. Oh, they're broke.

01:14:30.860 Yeah. Or they're up to their eyeballs in debt. Why the hell do you want to talk with them

01:14:34.920 about that? What are they going to tell you? They're going to tell you how to get into debt

01:14:39.360 because that's all they know. So I think it's okay to recognize what we're good at and

01:14:44.420 acknowledge it. And then also say, you know, like, I don't know anything about that.

01:14:48.400 Well, I recognize it in the sense of, I think we have such a short timeframe and on, on the

01:14:58.200 planet. Right. And human beings are, are, are, we, you know, stretch it out. We get a hundred

01:15:06.460 years here. Right. And it's a small blip compared to the overall timeframe of this thing spinning

01:15:12.800 around and there's only so much you can collect. I mean, in this, this gray matter up here. And then

01:15:20.440 you have all these different emotions, whether it's ego or, you know, um, whatever types of drive

01:15:27.640 that you're going to plug into this, there's only so much of substance you can truly, truly commit and

01:15:33.240 then contribute. And, um, for me, I, I don't think that I have a, a, a lot to contribute necessarily

01:15:43.580 other than saying, uh, this is my thought. Maybe that'll inspire somebody else to think a little

01:15:50.400 bit more or go, boy, that's really stupid. I should, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to think

01:15:55.200 that way. That's dumb. It's dumb as shit. And, you know, I think as a group of guys,

01:16:02.480 as we kind of float around here in this ecosystem, and this is one of the things I love about like

01:16:07.420 you and Andy Stumpf and all these other guys that I know in the podcasting world,

01:16:12.420 because we just throw out, you're much better at it. And I'm not, I'm not saying that in the,

01:16:18.360 in the, you know, like, like, Oh my God, you can do like that. You're, you're better at it.

01:16:24.160 You are, this is, this is your, you know, I think this is part of your calling in this

01:16:28.960 context is you're better at formatting information, really getting to the point.

01:16:33.760 And I, I enjoy listening to other people discuss different ideas and topics. And I don't,

01:16:42.520 I don't even like listening to myself. I think that's kind of natural for a lot of people,

01:16:46.960 but if it's experience-based knowledge that people want to know about, like I know

01:16:52.560 a few things, right? Like, I know how to, you know, be a fairly competent, you know,

01:16:58.000 gunfighter at the end of the day. It's still not perishable skill, not a lead, manage a couple

01:17:03.220 people in order to solve problems. And I know how to like, um, curate responsibility among like a

01:17:09.820 family, uh, a family unit. So my, my kids, my wife don't ultimately hate me and they might be good,

01:17:15.440 productive people, right?

01:17:16.360 You might grow into something.

01:17:17.520 Yeah. But you know, like you, you, when you listen or read guys that are truly

01:17:24.840 impactful in what they do, like I'm never going to be Warren Buffett for instance, right? I'm

01:17:30.200 never going to have the passion that guy has to turn a penny into a dollar. Never. Like I like

01:17:35.100 building ecosystems and creating these things that are interesting to me. And ultimately I think

01:17:41.200 that's beneficial on the second and third order effects of what's happening. But I only have so

01:17:48.640 much mental capacity or intellectual bandwidth, right? And I'm not that smart of a guy at the end

01:17:54.700 of the day. And the reason I say that is like, I've talked to really, as you have to really smart

01:18:02.300 people and you know, when you're just outgunned, when you're like, holy shit, I even get, there's,

01:18:07.040 you know, conversations where you just get intimidated because you're like, those guys,

01:18:11.300 and you just nod your head. Like, I don't know what you're saying right now, but okay.

01:18:14.320 Your jaw, your jaw just kind of drop. Sounds right to me.

01:18:18.320 Uh-huh. Good, good noises make pretty stuff, you know? And you're like, yeah, that's cool, man. Like

01:18:24.340 I know what you're saying.

01:18:25.760 Yeah, I get it. And, and that's the thing like, which for me, if I'm going to turn the conversation

01:18:32.800 back on you now, which is, you know, we started roughly in, in the similar couple, couple months

01:18:41.960 of one another. So when you started it, is this where you saw yourself? No, no, no. I, um, so I

01:18:50.580 was doing the financial planning practice stuff and I just, I just wanted to have conversations

01:18:54.740 with guys I thought could help me be a better dad and business owner. Right. Like legit. That's

01:18:58.420 why I started. Cause I'm like, I don't really know how to be father or husband. The business

01:19:03.340 was doing fairly well, my financial planning practice, but I'm like, I'd like to blow this

01:19:06.320 up and really grow it better. And I could get one-on-one coaching if I do a podcast. Cause

01:19:11.320 I had another podcast before this one. What was it? It was called wealth anatomy. So it was

01:19:15.300 teaching financial services to medical professionals. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. So that's what I did.

01:19:20.960 I'm like, man, I could do a podcast like I've been doing, but I could talk about, you know,

01:19:25.220 how to be a better man. Right. And I could get free one-on-one coaching. That's it. In

01:19:30.300 an exchange. Yeah. In an exchange, I would just publish it to the five people that would

01:19:34.340 listen. Right. And then I did my first podcast and it blew up. Blew up. Number one. The

01:19:40.440 first podcast. Seriously. It did more downloads than the entire podcasting of wealth anatomy

01:19:45.700 had done for 20 episodes. What was it? Was your first episode? Uh, it was like why I'm

01:19:50.160 doing this. Right. You know what? Why I think being a man's important. Some things that we're

01:19:54.600 going to cover and talk about some things that I wanted to explore and get better at. And

01:19:58.240 we were off to the races, man. So I just did as a side thing. And then I realized pretty quickly

01:20:04.120 because of that, like how valuable it was. Right. So I started talking more and more about this stuff

01:20:09.880 and doing more podcasts. And my wife came to me one day and she's like, Hey, um, like you seem

01:20:14.680 really happy with what you're doing and like you're fulfilled and you like it, but you're not doing

01:20:20.420 as much financial planning and you're not making any money doing this. Right. So you should probably

01:20:24.900 think about your priorities or find a way to make money. And I thought to myself, well, I'm not going

01:20:30.300 to quit doing this. So yeah, I think it was eight months into it and we started a course and I

01:20:36.620 remember the first guy that signed up for it. My thought was what an idiot. I was like, this guy

01:20:42.980 doesn't know. I still have that email. He's actually a friend of mine still. And I still have the email

01:20:47.680 that I sent to him. It was like, Hey, thanks. Like now there's two of us doing this thing.

01:20:50.600 This is cool. Right. And yeah. So that was, I think that was seven or eight months after I started.

01:20:56.900 And that for me was like a light bulb moment that I could add value to people's lives in exchange for

01:21:03.340 value. Right. Right. Monetary transactions, uh, online with people that I had never even met.

01:21:09.140 Right. That wasn't even like a thing that I knew existed. Well, I knew it existed, but I didn't

01:21:13.100 think I could create it for myself. So when you were, when you kind of sat down and you put pencil

01:21:18.880 and paper on this, what, did you write out your business plan? No, no, I'm not. I've never been

01:21:23.320 like that. Yeah. It's like, that sounds good. Let's try it. Right. And then I'll figure it out

01:21:28.800 along the way. I mean, I know there's way more efficient ways to do it. I don't know if I just

01:21:34.060 don't have the patience, um, or I get bored really quickly maybe, but I'm like, I don't know,

01:21:40.860 let's just try it. And if I like it, then we'll adjust as, and if I don't, then I haven't put

01:21:44.120 a bunch of time and effort into it and then I can pivot real quick. So I still, I don't

01:21:48.120 have a, I still don't have a business plan. I still haven't sat, I don't know if I ever

01:21:51.680 will like sit down and like really hash that stuff out. Yeah. I don't think that's a, I

01:21:56.240 think it's, it works conceptually like in universities and a few places, but ultimately

01:22:01.120 you got to test stuff and figure out if it works. Well, and then who's, I mean, the thing

01:22:06.280 I always say is I don't even know what I'm going to have for dinner tonight, let alone what

01:22:10.780 opportunities could present themselves, you know, six years ago, podcasting, I wouldn't

01:22:14.620 have thought about that. Yeah. Um, or, you know, doing live events or, or even consider

01:22:19.980 would have anybody have predicted COVID and how that would impact people's lives negatively.

01:22:24.540 And, and frankly, some people's positively, right. You wouldn't have predicted it. And if

01:22:28.640 you have this like stringent thing, like I'm going to do one, two, three, four, five through

01:22:33.280 a hundred. And you know, on this date, I'm going to get item number 50 done. I just think

01:22:38.380 you handcuff yourself to opportunities. And you even said it, as we were talking earlier

01:22:42.240 is like life short, like we don't have a whole lot of time or bandwidth. So I want to pursue

01:22:47.240 things that are interesting to me. And if next year order of man, isn't it, it might not

01:22:51.680 be, I don't know. I don't have any plans, but there might be something else. I'm like,

01:22:55.560 nah, I'm going to do that now. And I'm okay with that.

01:22:58.720 Yeah. I think, I mean, I think that's one thing that for me too, is I know I've got a short

01:23:04.720 time here. Right. And, you know, we don't know tomorrow we could roll out of bed and

01:23:08.720 like, Oh man, I got a pain in my side and pancreatic cancer. You're dead, you know, two

01:23:13.620 days later or whatever it is. And I was trying to explain that to my wife and Michael, I'm

01:23:18.800 a very impatient person. Right. So I'm trying to get it all in before I leave. You know,

01:23:23.400 I've got to get it all in, you know, I've got to love everybody. I've got to create some

01:23:26.520 positivity. I've got to have some fun. And, uh, but the, the bang for the buck and the

01:23:33.300 couple of questions I want to run by, it was like, when you're looking at kind of

01:23:40.520 where you, you came from and where this is now, what's your azimuth? Like what, what

01:23:46.400 is it that's pointing you in the direction that when you roll out of bed, what's

01:23:51.540 kicking you in your ass?

01:23:52.800 So for me personally, I'll talk about personally and professionally, but

01:23:57.440 personally it's, and I know it sounds trite. Like it's just to be the

01:24:03.280 maximum version of myself. So how do I get better? How do I, how do I make myself

01:24:09.140 more capable? How do I learn new skills that may or may not be applicable down

01:24:15.240 the road? How do I communicate more effectively? How do I better teach and

01:24:20.120 train and coach my children so that they'll be able to go out and have the

01:24:24.040 life that took me, I think longer than maybe it should have. If I would have had

01:24:26.940 some of this guidance, um, how do I make sure that my wife knows that, that I love

01:24:32.140 her and that I'm committed to her. Like, so I, I just want to put all of that

01:24:37.300 into action. That's what drives me. And so I'll ask myself, is this helping? Is

01:24:41.920 this, is being out here? And this is hard. This is actually, frankly, for me to be

01:24:45.980 away from my family. I don't particularly enjoy traveling without them. So I have to

01:24:50.680 wrestle with that. It's like the balance between being out here and pursuing things

01:24:55.660 like, is this conversation making me a better person? Yeah, absolutely. But that's a

01:24:59.740 question I ask myself all the time. Right. And then I have that as a litmus test

01:25:03.820 to say, no, that's actually not helping me better, be a better person. So I'm not

01:25:07.140 going to do that anymore. But professionally, it's to help guys do the same, you

01:25:12.740 know, to have some confidence, um, to have some meaning and purpose in their life.

01:25:17.740 And I used to see a lot of young, young and old men who don't have any purpose. Yeah.

01:25:23.620 Yeah. Like they're, they're rudderless. They've got the energy, they've got the

01:25:27.680 desire, but they just don't know how to channel it. It's like, just take that and

01:25:32.220 focus on this. And so that's what we're doing. You know, we're giving those guys

01:25:36.320 the fuel and the channel to be able to maximize their lives and have some of that

01:25:40.360 meaning and significance.

01:25:43.700 Which is, this will be a strange question, right? Which is, what is it though? Like when

01:25:49.000 you say meaning and you're trying to dive into the meaning of what does it mean

01:25:53.140 to be a man? Yeah. Yeah. So for me, so I've, I've, I've obviously I've thought a

01:25:58.900 lot about this. So I talk about in the context of, you know, my three sons, I

01:26:03.620 have three sons and a daughter and my three sons are, are boys. They're males, but

01:26:08.060 they're boys. They're not expected to be men. Right. So what's the difference?

01:26:11.480 Right. Obviously age. Right. But really it comes down to responsibility and

01:26:17.020 accountability. They have none. You know, they have to do their dishes at night

01:26:20.920 and they, uh, you know, if they do something they shouldn't be doing, there's

01:26:23.460 some discipline and some accountability that comes with that. Sure. But they're

01:26:26.860 not responsible and accountable for themselves. Like I am. So when they start

01:26:31.600 to make that switch from young man to man, what's the difference? The difference

01:26:35.480 is now they're responsible and accountable, not only for themselves, but for

01:26:38.780 other people. Right. That's why you have 40 year old men, boys, males, we'll call

01:26:44.220 them. Right. Who are in mommy and daddy's basement, no accountability, no

01:26:47.360 responsibility, no bills, no mortgage, no nothing. And they're playing video

01:26:51.220 games and waiting for the latest PS5 or whatever it is they're on now, what

01:26:54.360 version they're on. Right. That's, that's not a man. Right. That's a male. That's

01:26:59.180 an adult male, but certainly not a man. Right. And then from there, and this goes

01:27:02.800 back to my azimuth, like you said, is to be a better protector, provider, and

01:27:07.800 presider. Those, that's my three core tenets of not only my personal life, but

01:27:11.820 masculinity. Protect, and this is for yourself and people, protect, provide,

01:27:16.820 preside, which is synonymous with lead. That's what it means to be a man.

01:27:21.280 And so when you sat down a few years ago, were you looking at, were you looking at

01:27:29.040 yourself saying, this is who I want to be so I can identify my strengths and

01:27:35.960 weaknesses? It was never, this is who I am. Got it. If that's what you're asking. Yeah.

01:27:39.780 Yeah. That's, that's what it was. It was never that. Right. I've never want, because

01:27:42.480 people will say every once in a while, they'll say, well, what makes you the

01:27:44.740 authority on blah, blah, blah. Right. Not, no one. I'm not the authority. I'm on the

01:27:48.780 path. Right. Like I'm trying to figure it out. So the only thing that I tell people

01:27:52.440 is the only thing that qualifies me to do this work is that I'm a man and I'm

01:27:57.860 passionate about it. Like I want to learn. I want to grow. Right. If I wasn't

01:28:01.580 interested in learning about this stuff, I wouldn't have interviewed now, I think

01:28:04.520 over 350 men. Yeah. Like I'm in this thing. Yeah. Cause I want to learn. I

01:28:09.760 want to grow. I want to get better. So yeah, it's never been about me being like

01:28:14.340 the authority and all the followers who are following me and what I, my

01:28:17.860 directives. Right. It's like, let's do this together and I'm going to be out

01:28:21.160 ahead of you on some things. And some of you are going to be out ahead of me and

01:28:23.920 I'll turn to you for advice, but we'll do it shoulder to shoulder. Right. I think

01:28:27.800 that's why people resonate with it. We were talking about it. There's other, there's

01:28:31.040 other movements out there that are ego driven where it's like, well, I'm doing

01:28:35.180 this to prop myself up and then I'm going to have these followers and they're

01:28:37.840 going to push me up. I mean, that's nice. That feels good, you know, but that's not

01:28:43.720 me. Like I, I want to do it together. Like I, I want to grow together. I want to

01:28:48.440 lead. I want to follow when I need to follow. Like that's how I see it working

01:28:51.940 better.

01:28:53.440 What have been the big surprises in the last few years that you've, you kind of

01:29:00.440 entered in one space, you're making this transition away from financial

01:29:05.140 advisory. And then you, you started on this path and you have to hit some

01:29:11.660 places where you're like, wow, I did not, did not expect this road to take me

01:29:16.360 here.

01:29:16.660 So I had this, um, he's a friend of mine and we met when I was a financial

01:29:22.040 advisor and he was a, uh, he was a coach for one of the planning tools that we use.

01:29:27.560 So he would come to our agency, uh, and he would coach, you know, the 20 of us

01:29:31.700 there and he would teach us how to use this tool effectively for our clients.

01:29:34.540 Right.

01:29:35.140 And I remember sitting in the office with him and, and him going through his

01:29:38.280 thing. And years later he reached out to me. He's like, Hey man, I don't know if

01:29:42.640 you remember me. I was one of your instructors for this thing. I said, yeah, I

01:29:45.880 remember you. And he said something very interesting to me. And it, at first I was

01:29:49.960 like taken back. I was almost like insulted a little. And then I thought about it

01:29:53.780 more. I'm like, no, that's actually really cool. He said, I would have never

01:29:57.540 guessed that you, he's like, I remember watching you in one of those sessions and

01:30:02.580 I would have never guessed that you would do what you're doing right now. And I

01:30:07.420 said, well, what do you, what do you mean? He's like, you just seem like an

01:30:10.420 average guy, like no excitement, no enthusiasm. Like you were there, you were

01:30:14.780 present, but like, you didn't seem like you were excelling or a superstar. And so

01:30:18.200 that's why I felt like insulted at first. And then I was like, no, actually

01:30:22.200 that's, that's cool because that's every man, like every man that I've ever

01:30:27.260 like talked with doesn't feel special. Right. And yet you can take like me, I

01:30:32.400 don't feel special, but I feel like, like he said, I feel pretty, like a pretty

01:30:36.780 average guy. And then to think about what we've created, when I get emails and

01:30:40.960 messages from guys who were like, Hey, I saved my marriage or I lost 50 pounds or

01:30:45.680 I just started my business or I secured a promotion or I asked that woman on a

01:30:48.700 date. Right. I'm like, I helped you do that. That's, that's rewarding. That's

01:30:53.520 super fulfilling for me. Yeah. I could see that. And it's weird. Not weird, but

01:30:57.580 it's interesting because I've seen you kind of move into a different form to

01:31:04.420 when you guys made the move to Maine. Yeah. It was like, ah, man, it seems like

01:31:08.840 you're, you're hitting a, it seems like you're hitting a really good personal and

01:31:13.860 professional stride that, that to me seemed like a really good point. I feel

01:31:17.700 like that. Like, I feel like I, like maybe for the first time in my life, feel

01:31:21.220 like I know where I'm supposed to be and where I'm supposed to go. And, you know,

01:31:24.880 I see a lot of these people on Instagram and, and other podcasts they follow and

01:31:28.440 they're all about business. And I think that's great. I'm a businessman. I like

01:31:31.260 business. Um, but I don't see enough, I don't see enough people talking about

01:31:36.040 leading their families and, and how often they're there and, and the autonomy they

01:31:41.760 have to be able to take them on a vacation or take your son on a hunt or go

01:31:45.180 to your daughter's dance recital or coach your kids' team, you know? And so like

01:31:49.580 one of the things we're doing right now is we're building a canoe. Oh yeah. I've

01:31:53.020 seen that. Yeah. And it's like, I wouldn't have never done that before, but now

01:31:56.920 I'm like, why not? And I think that comes with a level of confidence of just

01:31:59.900 putting myself out there enough, feeling, feeling good about the growth and

01:32:04.540 progression I've had that you kind of step into your own a little bit. And so I

01:32:08.020 feel like if finally to a degree, it sounds so lame, but figured out like who

01:32:13.020 I am, you know? Yeah. That's how I feel. Like, and I've always felt like awkward

01:32:17.560 like that. That's not me. Even as a financial advisor, I'm like, and I've got

01:32:22.140 a buddy that I got into the business with and we talk every once in a while.

01:32:25.300 And, uh, we got into business at the same time and he'll tell you, I told him

01:32:28.840 for years, I'm like, man, I'm not going to be doing this forever. Like I'm meant to do

01:32:32.940 something different for something more. And he's like, really? What? I'm like, I

01:32:37.020 don't know. I just know it's not this. And to turn around and look about those

01:32:41.840 conversations we had and to see how far we've come. It's pretty amazing.

01:32:45.220 Was that like, was that a intellectual, spiritual thing?

01:32:49.660 That feeling? Yeah. Yeah. Spiritual. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just spiritual. It's

01:32:55.040 just, I can't even describe it. I just felt like I felt insignificant where I was.

01:33:00.800 Right. But my performance was pretty good, but I still felt shallow and hollow and

01:33:05.640 empty. So I'm like, well, I'm making multiple six figures with a business. Um,

01:33:10.100 I've got this beautiful family. We've got a couple of different properties. Like,

01:33:15.460 like on the outside, things are awesome, man. And, and people hear that and they

01:33:19.100 think, well, I want that. Right. I didn't want that. I mean, I wanted that, but like

01:33:23.500 something was missing. Well, that, that's an interesting point because people, I see this

01:33:30.920 a lot and I don't know if you see the same thing, but I see a lot of people that are

01:33:35.520 pursuing, um, a templated life that they think will ultimately lead them to fulfillment and

01:33:44.060 happiness. And they're looking at other people and they're kind of conforming to that saying,

01:33:48.020 okay, I got it all. Right. Why am I still unhappy? Right. And you're chasing other people's

01:33:53.620 dreams. Right. Like I follow this guy on Instagram and I've reached out to him. His name's Trent

01:33:58.700 Presler. I think is how you pronounce his last name. Just because of the canoe that I'm building

01:34:02.060 and the guy builds canoes. Like that's his job. That's his life. That's what he does. He builds

01:34:07.060 these big, beautiful canoes. And I'm like, that's rad. Like that guy builds, I don't know, maybe

01:34:12.660 20, maybe not even 20 canoes a year. Right. And people pay him a lot of money to do it,

01:34:17.820 but he's doing his passion. He's very excited. He's very artistic, but he's analytical about the way

01:34:22.640 that he approaches it and very scientific, but artistic. And I'm like, man, that's,

01:34:26.240 that's his Avenue. He seems like he's in his zone. Right. And then you have Jordan Peterson

01:34:32.000 who we were talking about earlier. That's his zone and you and wrote and like all these guys

01:34:36.960 that we follow and there's no, you have to do it this way. Right. And I think that's the old way

01:34:41.900 of doing it. But the new way of doing it is whatever way you want. Yeah. That's the cool thing

01:34:49.020 about the culture that we've created is that we can do it however we want and you can be successful.

01:34:54.280 But I think you have to find that balance. Like if you're just pursuing the career or the money

01:34:58.600 or whatever, I mean, you'll get it, you know, you will, but it's not, it's going to be hot. Like

01:35:05.100 if you don't have anybody to share it with, you're not doing cool things or like, or, or, or flexing

01:35:11.020 that creative muscle, like you're going to feel shallow. Yeah. And that's, that's the, that's the

01:35:16.660 question, which is when you left your previous profession and stepped off into the abyss ultimately is what

01:35:23.580 you did. Right. You, cause there is no safety net in business. Well, I walked away from a multiple

01:35:30.600 six figure residual income. Right. Like I'm, I'm out. And how hard, how hard was that? It was super

01:35:37.540 hard. Yeah. I, I delayed it longer than I should have because it was scary. Yeah. But I remember

01:35:42.680 getting this phone call from one of my clients and I remember looking at my phone and I just went,

01:35:46.980 not because of the client, but because I just didn't want to have that conversation.

01:35:53.140 Like I just, I'm like, really? I got to talk about the stock market again. Right. And so at that point

01:36:00.220 I'm like, all right, I got to come up with a plan to get out of this. And I'd already been doing order

01:36:04.840 a man at the time, but I'm like, okay, yeah, I need to ramp this up. I need to turn this into a

01:36:08.620 business. And so now that you've done that, you look back on yourself and like you said,

01:36:16.560 I should have left this earlier. Way earlier. Because do you find yourself

01:36:21.240 happier now than you were, or is it more of not necessarily a happiness? I don't like that,

01:36:28.480 that word in this context. I don't either, but it's just the. No, I know. I want to try to bring

01:36:32.280 some, some edges to that. Cause people will say like, I just want to be happy. And when I hear happy,

01:36:38.420 I just think like blissfully, you know, like skipping through the forest and all the birds are chirping

01:36:44.080 and you know, it's like some freshman college bullshit where they're just like, Oh, like we

01:36:48.340 used to joke around last night. It's like, follow your passion. Right. You can work another day in

01:36:51.780 your life. It's like, Hey, I can read Pinterest memes too, man. Like, yeah. So I don't want to be

01:36:56.400 happy. Like there's days where, well, there's a lot of days where I'm not like, I'm actually not a

01:37:01.700 happy person. Right. Um, but there isn't a day that goes by now that I'm not fulfilled.

01:37:08.540 Gotcha. And I think that's what I'm after. And so I think the difference between fulfillment and

01:37:12.220 happiness, and some of you might think, Oh, it's just semantics. And maybe it is, but here's how

01:37:16.080 I look at it. Happiness is just blissful ignorance. Yeah. Like everything's fine. The sun's shining,

01:37:22.160 the birds are chirping, life is good. And okay, good. But what's your challenge? Right. Like,

01:37:27.680 what are you pushing up against? What's pushing up against you? And so what I found with the

01:37:32.400 business order, man, and also fatherhood and being a husband, it's hard shit. Like it's challenging,

01:37:37.980 but it's also rewarding. It's the challenge that I want, like, that's the challenge I want to face.

01:37:43.620 There's other challenges where I'm like, I don't want to do like, you went running this morning

01:37:46.740 and I'm like, I don't want to run. Cause like, it would be challenging for sure, but I don't want to do

01:37:51.880 that. You know? So I think you got to find something that, and this is what I've been,

01:37:57.680 I was going to say fortunate. I'm not fortunate. Cause that, that's too passive.

01:38:02.780 But I found a little bit of interest in something, which was podcasting because I was doing it for my

01:38:07.240 business. And I just said, what if I just took one more step into that? Right. And then I took

01:38:12.300 another step and I'm like, okay, yeah, that's cool. What if I took one more step and one more step

01:38:18.320 and one more step? And then you take a thousand steps and you look back and see how far you've come.

01:38:22.980 So I'm not happy, but I'm, but I'm definitely fulfilled.

01:38:27.500 Yeah. And that, and that's the interesting word. And you and I've talked for the last day on

01:38:34.840 fulfillment and happiness and a few of these things. And people get those things really confused,

01:38:40.900 right? They, they, they get, because we're putting words to ultimately, you know, emotions that could be

01:38:47.820 combined with physicality and intellectual, intellectual capacity and long-term goal setting.

01:38:54.840 And like, Oh, it's so complex, right? It's like the human behavior in mind. It's so complex. But

01:39:00.000 when you look at fulfillment itself as a word, define that in your words for, for you.

01:39:10.900 So fulfillment to me is finding a meaningful challenge and making yourself capable of dealing

01:39:22.440 with it. That makes you, right? Cause now, okay, I got this challenge and, and yeah, it's hard and

01:39:29.340 yeah, it sucks at times. And that's another thing that people think. They think, Oh, if I'm around the

01:39:32.660 right path, everything will be perfect. Yeah. It's like, no, there's going to be some real shitty days.

01:39:37.180 I have days like that. I'm like, God, this, I don't want to deal with this. I gotta like,

01:39:41.160 I have to deal with this, but it's the fulfillment because it's a meaningful challenge. And I'm like,

01:39:46.560 okay, well, what do I need to do? You talk about problem solving earlier. What do I need to do

01:39:51.660 to be able to be capable of dealing with that thing? And there's days where I'm incapable of

01:39:57.900 dealing with something I might address in the business, but that's pretty cool because tomorrow

01:40:02.740 or in a week or a month or whatever, when I learned that new skill, now I'm capable. I remember

01:40:07.620 even, even, uh, if we're talking about money, for example, in the business, the first, the second

01:40:13.700 year of order of man, we made a lot of money, like more than I'd ever made in my life. And I got on the

01:40:20.720 phone with my accountant and he's like, well, here's your tax bill. And I hadn't paid quarterly

01:40:25.400 or any of that. And I'm a financial advisor. Right. And I'm like, holy shit. I'm like,

01:40:32.300 are you serious? He's like, yeah. I'm like, what do I need to do? And he's like, well,

01:40:35.340 you need to pay it. And then here's what you need to do. The next year I did the quarterlies.

01:40:40.280 We did the estimates. Everything was fine at the end of the year. I'm like, good. Now I'm

01:40:43.560 capable of dealing with that. And the thing about it is you don't get to graduate until you learn the

01:40:47.840 lesson. Right. So people will keep saying, people say this all the time. Oh, you know, bad stuff

01:40:52.240 keeps happening to me. And I, this thing keeps happening and coming up. It's like, yeah. Cause

01:40:56.120 you haven't learned the lesson. Right. Like make yourself capable of dealing with that. And other

01:41:00.960 people will say, well, I just, you know, if I didn't have any problems, like no, you shouldn't

01:41:05.820 try to make your problems go away. You should be elevating your problems. Like today you should

01:41:09.520 be dealing with better, more complicated, more complex, more rewarding problems than you did

01:41:14.040 yesterday. Right. If your problems don't go away, they just get better. Yeah. I'm like,

01:41:18.860 these are better problems. Like you worrying at worrying about, uh, fulfilling payroll with

01:41:23.600 400 plus employees. That's a better problem than paying your mortgage. Oh yeah. Right.

01:41:28.860 Yeah. Cause if you can solve that 440, your mortgage just becomes like a, exactly. You're

01:41:33.600 like, I don't know. Right. And that's what you should be doing. How do I create, not create,

01:41:38.400 but how do I solve better problems for myself? Yeah. I think people, they often get those

01:41:43.800 things confused in the, in, you know, the men that I talk to and we talk about these, these

01:41:52.540 things like fulfillment, you know, or fulfillment goals, objectives, spirituality, a wide variety

01:42:00.520 of really complex things. And people you touched on it, which is they confuse fulfillment with

01:42:09.120 happiness and happiness with, uh, ignorance and ultimately complacency because they're just kind

01:42:20.040 of like, they think doing nothing is going to make them happy. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Like

01:42:27.260 you're so far off. Yeah. You're, you need to put yourself back on this map sheet because you're not

01:42:33.640 even on the right quadrant, dude. Like you got to bury yourself in the work. The, the analogy I use

01:42:40.100 is if you want to know the difference between the two, just go sit on the beach and men have a hard

01:42:45.080 time with this. I think just go sit on the beach and just try to sit there for three hours, like

01:42:50.720 in suntan. Right. Like there's no man in the world who could do that because it's, it's horrible.

01:42:58.280 It's horrible. The sun's shining. Yeah. You've got the ocean, the, the surf spread. Like it's,

01:43:03.140 it's beautiful. Yeah. You're happy, but you're miserable. Yeah. You can't sit there for very long.

01:43:09.300 No. You got to be doing something. So what do you do? You go, you know, you, like I was bringing

01:43:13.480 a shovel to the beach cause I dig a hole and we play King of the hole with my kids. Right. That,

01:43:17.740 okay. Meaning. I just gave this beautiful surrounding meaning and purpose, connecting with

01:43:23.160 my kids, playing, getting stronger. That's what makes it worth it. But you can't just sit there on

01:43:28.020 the beach forever. We know that. Right. It's miserable. It's miserable. But everything's perfect.

01:43:33.140 Yeah. So why, what are you, what are you upset about? Cause there's nothing hard.

01:43:36.840 Mm-hmm. Which it, it makes me think, what are the questions that you're fielding from order

01:43:46.140 a man or whatever, right? On a regular turn that you're like, guys, I've answered this a

01:43:50.460 thousand times, but I'm going to, it's a thousand and one. I'm going to answer a thousand.

01:43:54.320 Like what are, what are men asking you? Like what is it that there's kind of the complexities

01:44:02.040 of those questions? There's one and it's not really, I guess it's calm. I mean, I don't

01:44:06.300 know. The one question I get all the time is how do I build confidence? You've got to do

01:44:12.640 something that you didn't think you could do. Right. Period. So like, if you don't think

01:44:19.560 you can run a marathon, then you have to run a marathon. Right. And when you're done with

01:44:22.880 the marathon, you're going to be more confident. If you're, if you're not confident around women,

01:44:27.980 you actually have to be around attractive women and ask them out. Right. There's no other way

01:44:32.640 around it. And then once you do that enough, you'll develop some level of confidence. It sucks.

01:44:36.960 Cause the answer is like, do the work, like dude, you got to do it. But that's the answer.

01:44:42.820 Like some people just think that other people are confident. It's like, no, like you can be

01:44:47.940 arrogant. Sure. But that's not earned. Confidence is earned. So you have to go fight a battle. You

01:44:55.380 have to do something hard. And when you do it and overcome it and make, like I said earlier,

01:44:59.060 make yourself capable of dealing with that obstacle. That's how you develop confidence.

01:45:04.340 But I have other people who ask questions about, um, like life decisions. Like, I think we talked

01:45:10.140 about this last night where, you know, somebody will reach out and say, Hey, I, I've got this job.

01:45:14.720 Uh, and you know, I'm away from my family all week and I come home and I spend two days with

01:45:19.720 them. And, um, you know, I just, I don't like the work, but man, I'm making really good money.

01:45:24.280 Right. Uh, but I got this job offer and, uh, I'm going to be at home and, uh, I'd never have to

01:45:32.400 travel and it's like really rewarding work. And there's an opportunity for growth and expansion

01:45:37.180 with this cool new company, but I'm going to make a little less money. What do you think I should

01:45:40.840 do? Like, um, and I, I said this last night, I'm like, well, okay. Are you going to be able

01:45:46.160 to make the bills with your new job? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we'll be fine. What, what's

01:45:49.860 the question? Right. And I tell these guys, just fast forward 20 years, fast forward 20

01:45:55.000 years, look back, looking back 20 years, which decision will you be happy you made? And it's

01:46:02.120 always that spend time with your family. Of course. Yeah. Pursue the meaningful opportunity

01:46:06.620 that could present itself and make a few less bucks. But that's a question I get all the

01:46:10.600 time. It's frustrating because they already know the answer, but they want somebody to

01:46:15.580 validate either. Well, they want one of two things. They want somebody to validate not

01:46:19.740 doing it. Cause that's easier. Like it's always easier when we moved to Maine, uh, which was

01:46:24.680 about a year and a half ago from Utah, it would have been easier not to move to Maine. Right.

01:46:29.740 Like significantly easier not to do that. And yet we made that decision because we knew it

01:46:35.660 would be a, it would represent a good opportunity and, and a venture for us. So there, so people

01:46:41.640 are either, when they ask questions like that, they're either looking for like, it's okay.

01:46:45.400 You don't have to do that. And they can retreat, retreat and slink back into the corner or they're

01:46:49.680 looking for permission. Like you don't need my permission to tell you, like you should take

01:46:54.440 that other job. Right. Like be a man, be assertive. This is your life. What are you asking me

01:46:58.720 for? And, and by the way, I don't have to live with the consequences of your choices.

01:47:02.400 Right. So if the advice that I give you is shit, you still have to live with it. Not

01:47:06.800 me. So make the decision. It's hard. Cause that's, you know, people want, they want that

01:47:12.340 validation. Yeah. I get that same question. And I literally, I, we were talking about it

01:47:16.700 yesterday, twice a week, once a day. I don't even know, to be honest with you, the people

01:47:21.960 DM and be like, Oh, but I got this great opportunity. I'm like, well, what, what is the question

01:47:28.520 right? Ultimately? And it's, it's kind of like, I want to say guys, like you don't

01:47:35.300 need to hire me as your Instagram direct message consultant and tell you what you

01:47:39.600 already know. Like just do it. Yeah. And the fear, right? So I see that in a lot of

01:47:48.740 people, like the fear of failure or the feel, the fear of not being accepted socially

01:47:56.520 or something like that, because you're stepping outside of a norm. And I don't know. My question

01:48:03.660 in that is, do you see fear as a obstacle for a big portion of the people that, and are

01:48:12.100 you teaching people how? Yeah. We talk a lot about that. I mean, it's fear for the most

01:48:15.840 part is misplaced. So what you, I think what you have to do when you, when you identify some

01:48:20.520 sort of hesitation welling up inside of you, and there always is like whether you're going

01:48:24.160 to start a business or, you know, move to Maine or, you know, whatever, you're always

01:48:27.420 going to have something where you're hesitant and you're like, I don't know if this is right.

01:48:31.700 So your, your mind cannot distinguish between it when it comes to fear, it cannot distinguish

01:48:38.280 between something that's going to put you in an uncomfortable situation and something that's

01:48:43.640 going to kill you. Like you're bought physiologically, you react the same way, which is to fight

01:48:49.000 your flight. Right. So I'm facing this decision. Let's just take the example of moving your family

01:48:53.700 across the country. I'm faced with this decision and physiologically, everything about me is

01:48:59.160 telling me like, this is dangerous. Don't do this. What, you know, what about your income

01:49:04.460 and it's going to cost a lot of money. And then what, you know, I had things like, what

01:49:07.500 if somebody gets hurt and they wouldn't have got hurt if you didn't move to Maine, like,

01:49:11.020 like all kinds of weird shit going on in my head about why we shouldn't do this. And

01:49:16.300 it's my, it's my body's defense mechanism to keep me safe, to keep me alive. Yeah. It's

01:49:21.180 what our ancestors dealt with 10,000 years ago. It's the same thing. And so what we need

01:49:25.920 to do now, because we're not going to be chased by saber tooth tiger and have to deal with the

01:49:30.260 same, you know, uh, feast or famine, like you're not gonna have to deal with that. So you have

01:49:34.700 to ask yourself when you have this level of hesitancy, is this going to make me uncomfortable

01:49:39.180 or is this going to kill me? Right. Cause if you're afraid, like it could actually, it could

01:49:43.360 be warranted. If you're standing on the cliff, like the edge of a cliff.

01:49:46.300 And your body said, Hey, you probably should step away. That's probably a good time to

01:49:49.460 listen and step away from the cliff. Right. But if it's like, Hey, you're going to take

01:49:54.120 this new job, but you're uncomfortable because there's a lot of uncertainty and doubt that's

01:49:57.720 not going to kill you. Right. It's just going to make you uncomfortable. And we know that

01:50:02.220 when you're uncomfortable and when you push through, you develop confidence, like we talked

01:50:05.460 about earlier, and you give yourself opportunities that would not have been present before. You know,

01:50:11.340 the other thing I do is play out worst case scenarios. So let's take Maine again.

01:50:14.900 So, all right. So we get to Maine and we spend, you know, I sold my business. I was already on a

01:50:21.280 buyout option, but we, I just said, you know what, I want to, I, the guy that I was telling

01:50:25.180 you about earlier, I actually sold it to him. Okay. So it was kind of nice. Cause I had like

01:50:29.160 a built-in buyer and I, he had a built-in buyer and me, it just didn't work out like that.

01:50:33.000 Right. Cause I didn't want to stay in. Um, so, so I sold, I, I, I called him up and I'm like,

01:50:39.100 Hey, I just want to do away with this. Like he had payments that I said, Nope, I want to lump

01:50:43.340 some. I'll discount it for you. Just pay it out or buy it out. He's like, done. So we did that.

01:50:48.240 So that was a risk. Cause I walked away from more money because I did it that way. Yeah.

01:50:52.540 Um, and then all my, you know, my wife's third generation born and raised, we bought the house that

01:50:56.980 her grandfather had built. Her parents were, had a wedding reception there. Her brother had a wedding

01:51:01.960 reception there. Her and I had our wedding reception there. We walked away. I mean, we,

01:51:05.480 we still own the house, but we left that house. Right. Um, we spent money on moving and everything

01:51:10.640 else. So there was a lot of risks that went with it. And we got out there. And I remember for the

01:51:14.660 first week I was like, hon, I don't know if we did the right thing. I remember looking, walk around

01:51:19.660 the field. Like, I don't know. How do you, she's like, I don't know either. But then I played it out.

01:51:24.380 I'm like, all right, well, what's the worst case scenario? So we're out some money, definitely.

01:51:28.240 And we're cold for two years and we don't have any friends for two years. Like I'm just playing

01:51:35.260 out worst case scenario. And then we move home. That doesn't sound so bad. Like we can deal with

01:51:41.800 what's, what's the upside potential significantly greater than being out, being cold and lonely

01:51:46.920 for a few years. Yeah. We had each other still. Right. So we weigh it out and you'd be, you talked

01:51:52.160 about, you'd be realistic with what could potentially come from it. And is the fear really there?

01:51:57.540 It's going to kill you or just make you uncomfortable for a bit. Most of the time,

01:52:00.620 you're just going to be uncomfortable. Cool. Deal with it. Yeah. And that level of uncomfort

01:52:05.240 being excited about the level of uncomfort or that, because I talk to my wife a lot about

01:52:14.220 this at times where I'm like, you have to force these opportunities to, to put the family

01:52:20.840 into a team event. Like, and if we have the team, you know, the, the kids, your wife,

01:52:30.220 whomever, and they're all working together in an uncomfortable situation, it starts to galvanize

01:52:35.260 the relationship. Yeah, definitely. You have to turn inward. You do. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know,

01:52:41.420 seeking those opportunities becomes one of those things for me, at least I have to kind of look at

01:52:46.460 them and go, this will be an interesting exercise for the family. So oftentimes like I'll throw a

01:52:52.520 wrench in things where I'm like, Hey, let's just go here for a few days, you know? And they're like,

01:52:56.040 what? I, we're just going to like load up the camper and head out. And we're like, yeah,

01:53:01.320 we're going to figure it out, man. Don't worry about it. Like we got enough food. We got enough

01:53:04.000 water. Like those, that, that thing is solved. Everything else is going to become a problem that

01:53:09.500 ultimately we're going to be able to solve together and we're going to figure it out. It's not a big

01:53:13.080 deal. Who cares? Not, you know, our birthdays aren't going to fly away because of this whole

01:53:17.160 thing. It might be a little bit cold. Right. You know, we might not have like the exact,

01:53:21.440 you know, snack for the kids or something, but at the end of the day, we're going to get through

01:53:26.720 this. It's really not that big of a deal. And so forcing those times and places becomes the things

01:53:33.780 that you actually remember. And you start to laugh about them too. You're like, Oh my gosh,

01:53:36.600 you remember that time? Those are the things you're like the best memories, you know? Every time I've ever

01:53:41.080 been miserable, whether it was like a scout camp when I was 10 years old or, you know,

01:53:45.300 taking my kids camping, like, and we, it rained and the water was under the tent. We didn't bring

01:53:50.840 a tarp. So we got completely, so we woke up and we had to like wring out our sleeping bags. Like,

01:53:56.080 that's what we talk about. We don't talk about the show, the last show that we watched on TV or the

01:54:00.780 last movie we watched. That's the, the miserable stuff is what we talk about. And we talk about it

01:54:05.580 fondly, which is nice that we as human beings have the ability to forget how miserable things actually are.

01:54:10.880 Yeah. And that's, that's, that's super weird too, because when you, when I think back about my

01:54:16.000 childhood and it's never like, I remember watching Scooby Doo, of course. Right. But I don't remember

01:54:22.640 the exact episodes or where I was or what I was, but I remember, you know, sinking to the bottom of my

01:54:29.360 dad's sleeping bag up in the middle of the mountains to get warm and, you know, trying to, to stay out of

01:54:37.440 the rain. Right. In the, you know, in the tent or, you know, the motorcycle quitting in the middle of

01:54:44.720 nowhere and, you know, having to hump around, you know, gas cans and helmets and stuff trying to figure

01:54:50.200 this stuff out. I remember that stuff. I remember that stuff. My, I don't remember any of the like

01:54:55.520 other bullshit. No, you weren't. You're, you're, a couple of years ago, we went, me and my son went on

01:55:00.100 this hunt and we were, um, he shot a pig. We could never recover it, which he was super disappointed

01:55:06.420 because that would have been his first animal. Right. And then we went, um, hog dogging. It was

01:55:10.160 here in Texas. What's hog dogging? So you have these dogs and you release these dogs and the pigs,

01:55:14.780 bay them up and stab them. Right. And so him and I did this and we were running around all these pits

01:55:21.340 with the guy and are these like bog swampy areas and the four-wheeler broke down. We're like three or

01:55:27.020 four miles back from our cabin. Right. So I'm like, well, what do somebody coming out? And they're

01:55:32.220 like, no, we got to walk back. Right. I'm like, okay. So me and my son walked back. He was 10 at

01:55:36.500 the time, walked back to the cabin. And then we're like, well, let's still go. Like we still want to

01:55:41.820 go. So we chased these dogs over everywhere. They were just all over the place. We had to trespass

01:55:48.680 in this guy's property because the dogs were up there and it was just a crate. And then we ended up

01:55:53.460 finding a pig and killed it. It was just a crazy night. Like everything went wrong. We came back.

01:55:57.960 One of his dogs died, had a heart attack and died. Like it was just a miserable, it was miserable.

01:56:05.560 And me and my son laugh about that trip all the time. Remember? And like how fun that was. And we

01:56:11.880 laugh about it and joke about it. That's like one of our best memories. And it was miserable.

01:56:17.260 Yeah.

01:56:17.500 But that's what you remember. Yeah. And that's the thing.

01:56:19.620 Because it's meaningful, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. It's, and it becomes funnier the

01:56:23.680 longer you get away from it. Yeah. So the, the, the next thing is, you know, as you're

01:56:29.700 looking through, through your priorities and what you want to do, what's, what's, what's

01:56:33.840 kind of the next evolution? With the business?

01:56:36.040 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Both. Yeah. Personal and business. Both. Yeah. Well, like personal is easy

01:56:41.720 because it's just finding new things that I want to try that I've always been interested

01:56:45.000 in. Right. And like for the first time in my life, I'm in the place where I have the

01:56:48.240 capacity. I'm talking about time and the financial resources to be able to do it. So, you know,

01:56:54.660 that could mean a couple of years ago, we went to my wife and I, speaking of just getting up

01:56:58.840 and going, my wife and I and kids went to Hawaii for three and a half weeks. And it's

01:57:02.200 like, we just went, we stayed in this like bamboo house in the middle of a Hawaiian village.

01:57:06.640 That's cool.

01:57:07.200 It was awesome. Yeah.

01:57:08.040 Rad. It was one of our coolest trips. Um, or, you know, I'm like, I was out at the lake.

01:57:14.160 Uh, last year and I was on a lifetime, one of those plastic lifetime canoes with the kids

01:57:20.400 or kayaks. I'm like, wouldn't this be cooler in a canoe that we built? Right. So I bought

01:57:25.380 one and you know, a kit and books and all that. So we built it or we're building it. Um, so,

01:57:31.360 so personally it's that, like, if I have an interest in something, I've made a commitment

01:57:35.100 to like, I at least owe myself and God, that's my belief. Oh, it to like pursue it to some

01:57:43.520 memory. So that's, that's personally, and I, that could be a thousand different things. I don't

01:57:47.000 know what it'll be, but it'll be something. Um, but professionally, like I'm really trying to

01:57:51.300 figure out how I can get guys together locally and in, in local areas. Cause that's what needs

01:57:57.920 to happen. Right. Like we need to get, and that's what we're doing here this week is we need to get

01:58:02.520 together face to face. We need to do things. We need to have real conversations, not about sports

01:58:07.940 or the Superbowl or what, like we need to have real conversations and figure out some of this

01:58:12.740 stuff. We need to challenge each other. We need to push up against each other. And so developing

01:58:18.440 some, I don't exactly know, I don't know how I'm going to do it, but within the organization,

01:58:23.600 that's the, that's the next evolution is how do we get guys banded together locally, connecting

01:58:29.920 physically face to face and challenging themselves in meaningful ways. We've done a really good job

01:58:34.940 of making it all digital. Now I'm going to take it offline and make it available for people in their

01:58:40.880 area. That's, I've got a lot of ideas and thoughts about how I'm going to do that, but, and it's going

01:58:47.560 to be big and it's going to be awesome, but it's going to take a lot of resources to be able to do

01:58:50.980 it. Well, I'm excited, man. Me too. I think it's, I mean, I obviously, you know, we've talked,

01:58:58.600 I love your podcast. Uh, so those that we're kind of doing a dual show here, I guess we should tell

01:59:04.760 people that we're doing a dual show. So you got to check out Ryan's podcast. Obviously you can

01:59:10.520 tell people where it's at and yeah, you know, this is free range American. So, you know, both,

01:59:14.920 both. So check out free range America, depending on where you're, if you're coming from order,

01:59:19.000 man, check out free range American, check out black rifle coffee. These guys are doing awesome

01:59:22.560 things. I always joke like my favorite company that I don't actually use their product because I

01:59:27.420 don't drink coffee. So I always joke about that, but check out free range American black rifle.

01:59:32.260 And then for those of you who are coming from free range American, check out order of man.

01:59:35.860 Yeah. Order of man. Yeah. Ryan's doing a, I mean, check him out on Instagram. Uh, you know,

01:59:41.700 listen to the podcast. He's got, uh, what you wrote your book three years ago. Yeah. Three

01:59:46.600 years ago. Sovereignty. Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully a new book coming out soon in the next year or

01:59:51.260 so. Awesome. Yeah. Well, dude, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Oh, we got to do that. No,

01:59:55.120 we can do either one. We can, I mean, we're sitting here without a mask. It's your feet away

01:59:58.280 from each other. So awesome, man. Well, thanks a lot. You guys appreciate it. And, uh, tune

02:00:02.740 in for the next one. Thanks guys. All right, guys, there you go. I hope you enjoyed that.

02:00:07.560 Um, it was my goal as we did this podcast and I know Evan asked me some questions. And part

02:00:11.280 of the reason that is, is because he, uh, as we said in the, in the conversation itself,

02:00:15.640 he's going to be hosting this on their podcast, which is free range American podcast. So if you're

02:00:20.980 not, aren't following over there, make sure you are. Uh, but it was really my goal to have

02:00:25.220 you be almost included, if you will, in the conversation that you were sitting alongside

02:00:30.700 of us and it was organic and it went wherever it went and we didn't have a restrain it to

02:00:36.180 a particular conversation or topic, but we had a conversation between two friends. And

02:00:40.520 I think that's most of the way that we, uh, we as men communicate. So, uh, this one is a

02:00:45.800 little bit, maybe more organic than it's been in the past. And I'm certainly trying to, uh,

02:00:50.860 improve the experience that you have, uh, with these podcasts. So let me know, let me know

02:00:57.040 what you thought about the conversation, good, bad, and different. Uh, reach out to Evan,

02:01:01.400 tell him what you thought about the conversation, what you like best, uh, what you're going to

02:01:05.100 be implementing and improving moving forward. Cause that's really our goal is to give you

02:01:08.520 what you need to be able to implement this stuff, these ideas and concepts and strategies

02:01:13.360 into your life to improve, uh, as a way to recap, we talked about earlier, uh, the Jocko fuel,

02:01:20.860 uh, subscription method. So if you want 10% off for life, you want free shipping for life

02:01:26.140 on any of the Jocko fuel lineup, which is their protein, uh, their joint warfare, which is my

02:01:31.920 personally, my favorite product. Um, their go energy drink or cognitive enhancing drink.

02:01:37.920 Then you can do that at Jocko fuel.com. Use the code order at checkout. Uh, and also check

02:01:43.580 out the iron council. If you want to maximize your day, cause we're teaching you how to do that

02:01:47.980 and, uh, squeezing the most out of every day. And, uh, of course the results that come with it.

02:01:55.060 So guys, that's all I've got for today. I hope you enjoyed again. The conversation will be back

02:01:58.740 tomorrow for my, uh, ask me anything with my friend and co-host Kip Sorenson. Both of us have

02:02:04.640 done some solo episodes over the past couple of weeks, but we'll be back together tomorrow,

02:02:08.600 which will be good. Some of you guys have said that you enjoy the conversation between both of us.

02:02:13.340 So we'll be back tomorrow. And of course your Friday field notes guys, just share the episode,

02:02:17.700 take a screenshot, share on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube gab. I know I'm missing a bunch

02:02:24.520 parlor. Actually parlor's not even online anymore. Whatever, wherever you're doing the social media

02:02:28.780 thing, just take a screenshot, share it, let the people know where you're getting this information

02:02:33.180 and let them know how you're becoming a better, more capable, more proficient man.

02:02:38.920 All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow. Until then, go out there, take action and become the

02:02:43.200 man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take

02:02:48.440 charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order

02:02:53.080 at order of man.com.

Order of Man - February 02, 2021

EVAN HAFER ｜ A Conversation Amongst Men

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