Order of Man - Fight, F＊ck, Feed, Feel

00:00:00.000 In my work over the past five years, I've seen a really disturbing trend in men of sedation and

00:00:05.360 mediocrity and lifelessness. It seems to me that too many men have lost their appetite for

00:00:10.700 adventure and excitement, and frankly, just a life full of meaning and purpose. If you feel

00:00:15.880 like that maybe describes you, even if it's just to some degree, or, you know, someone who does,

00:00:20.680 this is going to be a very powerful podcast. My guest today is Trevor Boehm, and he joins me to

00:00:26.300 talk about his new book, Man Uncivilized. We cover what it means to be a man, how and why we should

00:00:32.140 become more quote unquote uncivilized, overcoming, playing the perpetual nice guy, and showing up

00:00:39.260 fully in our lives and the lives of others. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest,

00:00:44.740 embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up

00:00:49.940 one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:57.240 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day,

00:01:02.620 and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:06.780 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder of

00:01:11.380 this movement and the podcast that is Order of Man. As I do every week, I want to welcome you here.

00:01:16.940 I also want to welcome you back. If you've been banded with us for any amount of time,

00:01:21.400 you know, as well as I do, that we need more men in this fight, in the battle to reclaim and restore

00:01:26.160 masculinity. And gentlemen, it is a battle. It seems to me that more and more people are dismissing

00:01:32.720 and undermining masculinity. And in fact, later this week, I'm going to do a podcast on Friday about

00:01:38.220 why that is, because I don't know that I've ever fully articulated why there seems to be at best

00:01:45.840 a dismissal of masculinity and at worst, an attack potentially, or an undermining of masculinity and

00:01:53.060 why it seems that so many people are so vocal about masculinity being something inherently bad

00:01:58.300 or evil or destructive or toxic. So I'm going to address that later this week on the Friday field

00:02:02.180 notes. So if you're not subscribed, make sure you subscribe. So you never miss a podcast, including

00:02:07.540 that one that I'm going to do on Friday. Also guys on that note, if you would, I need you to do

00:02:11.960 something because we are perpetually in the top right around 50, 40, 50, 60, somewhere right in

00:02:19.620 there in business podcasts in the world, which is really, really good. But I can't for the life of

00:02:25.920 me understand or even think why this isn't a top 10 podcast. It should be a top 10 podcast. Now,

00:02:31.640 obviously I'm a bit biased, but if I didn't think we were the best in the world, or at least moving

00:02:36.920 in that direction, then why would I even do the podcast and the movement to begin with? But I need

00:02:41.640 your help to do that guys go and leave us a rating and review in iTunes. That's all I ask.

00:02:47.120 You get all this information for free. I put out a lot of valuable content. At least I think it's

00:02:51.140 valuable. And, and it seems to me that a lot of you guys would agree. If you do believe that that's

00:02:55.640 the case, then go leave a rating and review. It'll take you 60 seconds, 120 seconds. And it goes a long

00:03:02.880 way in promoting the visibility of the podcast. And ultimately the mission again, to reclaim and

00:03:07.220 restore masculinity. So hit pause or whatever, and go leave a rating and review, take a couple of

00:03:11.760 minutes out of your day, since you're listening to this podcast and you've gotten value from it,

00:03:15.360 that would be very, very helpful for me. And very, very helpful for the men who will hear about the

00:03:20.780 order of man movement because you left a rating and review. All right, guys, I've got a good one lined

00:03:25.580 up for you here today. I do want to just share with you it's Christmas, right? So you're looking for

00:03:30.600 gifts. You're probably giving your loved one Christmas gifts, ideas, or looking for Christmas

00:03:35.460 gifts for your loved ones. If that's the case, head over to my friends over at origin, Maine,

00:03:41.720 Maine is in the state, Maine. And I M A I N E, if I can spell that origin, Maine, uh, and check out

00:03:47.440 what they've got over there, uh, specifically their hoodies. I would highly, highly recommend their

00:03:51.420 hoodies. They're warm. They're comfortable. They joke about being unicorn skin or whatever, but I don't

00:03:56.840 know if that's a joke because honestly, they're the most comfortable warmest hoodies, uh, that I

00:04:01.740 have ever owned myself. Also check out their boots. I just shined and cleaned up and conditioned my

00:04:07.280 boots just last night. I try to do that as often as I can. It's gone a little while without doing

00:04:12.180 that. And man, they look, they look amazing and they feel amazing and they fit perfectly on my feet

00:04:17.500 and they keep my feet warm and dry. So if you're looking for a new pair of 100% sourced and made in

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00:04:36.960 boots, your hoodies, your geese, your rash guards, your supplements, your lifestyle apparel, all of it.

00:04:42.680 Origin, Maine.com. All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest today. Traver Bowen. I'm really,

00:04:48.400 really excited to introduce you to him. This guy's a strength and conditioning coach. He's a CrossFit

00:04:52.340 gym owner. He's an MMA fighter. He's done some bodyguard work. He's serves. He's an actual

00:04:57.020 acupuncturist. I mean, the guy's just does so much. Uh, and he's got an incredible resume of

00:05:02.740 interesting life experiences, including this one was really fascinating sitting in complete

00:05:08.420 isolation and pitch dark blackness, if you will, for a month in Guatemala. Uh, it's those type of

00:05:16.340 experiences that give Traver, uh, perspectives that, you know, many of us just really haven't

00:05:21.140 considered before. And, uh, much of what is documented from this is in his new book, man

00:05:26.500 on civilized, which is what we cover in our conversation today. Uh, I haven't known Traver

00:05:30.840 for long, but I definitely admire his passion and excitement for life and what it means to be a man.

00:05:36.400 And of course, a willingness to help others on their own path of masculinity. One other thing,

00:05:41.820 before we get into the conversation, there are some, some swear words. Uh, most of our podcasts

00:05:46.480 do. I just want to make you aware of that. That way, if you're listening with your kids,

00:05:49.900 cause I know a lot of you guys do, uh, this may not be the best one for them, uh, but you, uh,

00:05:55.300 can certainly tune into other podcasts. Uh, but listen to this one, maybe on your own. All right.

00:06:00.620 That's my, uh, that's my disclaimer there. Just want to make sure I'm respectful of that.

00:06:04.120 All right, guys. Enjoy the conversation. Traver. What's up, man. I've been looking forward

00:06:08.640 with this conversation. I have as well, my man. It's been a long time coming.

00:06:14.040 We had to do that, uh, intro twice because, uh, we've got, it seems like we have some internet,

00:06:18.920 maybe connectivity issues. We've got a storm out front as we just moved here to Maine. I'm,

00:06:23.140 I'm learning what a snowstorm really is. Where are you from, man? Where do you live?

00:06:29.200 Uh, I'm in Vancouver at the moment. Oh, yeah. So it's a long, long question. I've spent about 20

00:06:34.520 years in California. And then recently after about three years on the road, moved to just

00:06:39.640 outside Denver, Colorado. And fortunately coming here, man, I, I drove here and then Denver got

00:06:46.340 like 36 inches of snow and, you know, in one night and I was like, ah, yeah, I'm just hanging

00:06:52.080 out in Vancouver for a month and then heading down to Costa Rica to teach for a bit and get

00:06:56.280 some surfing. And get some surfing in. Is that what you said? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The one thing,

00:07:00.980 you know, Denver's great. It's just, there's a little bit of a lack of an ocean.

00:07:04.760 Yes, there is. I'm not much of an ocean guy. I, uh, I grew up actually in Southern California

00:07:09.940 and one of my buddy buddies took me, uh, surfing once and I almost died and I'm like, okay,

00:07:16.140 that sport's not for me. And, uh, started doing other things instead.

00:07:20.700 It's got a heavy learning curve. It's like jujitsu, right? But you got to just keep going back and

00:07:24.980 going back and going back. Yeah. I mean, I got, I, I, I stood up for maybe like a half a second

00:07:30.960 if that, and just fell. And then I, I kind of got tossed around on the wave a little bit

00:07:36.320 and I, and I came up to the surface just in time to get crushed with another wave.

00:07:42.300 And, uh, I was like this and I was just like tumbling in the bottom of the ocean. I could feel

00:07:47.180 the ground underneath me. I mean, it was, it was kind of scary, actually. It is scary. And then you

00:07:51.780 realize too, that you're in like waist high waves and people are riding things that are 60, 70 feet.

00:07:57.440 I know, man. Some of what those guys do, like I see these, like these, these big wave surfers.

00:08:03.640 And I just think the ones that have, they have to get towed in. I'm like, that is insane to me.

00:08:09.000 Insane. But I actually think it's, I think it's pretty cool. You know, I actually think it speaks

00:08:13.040 to our, our nature as men to, to look for adventure, to embrace some level of risk. And unfortunately it

00:08:22.220 just doesn't seem like that many men are, are living to that, which is kind of the thread of,

00:08:26.880 of your book and the conversations that, that you seem to be having lately.

00:08:30.260 Yeah. I see a lot of guys, Ryan, I don't know if it's just the proliferation of social media,

00:08:35.860 but it's like, they can almost get that itch scratched by looking at pictures and video and

00:08:42.180 image of other guys living the life they want to live. And that's like the, Oh, it's the 2%. I feel

00:08:47.980 okay about my own life. And maybe someday I'm going to be in that same adventure. And then the

00:08:52.820 lack of, okay, that actually takes three years of training. That takes five years of training.

00:08:57.820 That takes a lot of suffering and misery, a lot of courage, a lot of just being completely

00:09:02.940 outside of your comfort zone. And so I agree with you. I think, um, you know, God bless Instagram.

00:09:08.400 It's how, it's how a lot of people find both of us, but it's, it's also, uh, it's dumbing down the

00:09:14.260 mail. Yeah. I mean, I think it's that, I also think it's, it, we see the highlight reel to your

00:09:21.760 point earlier about, you know, we don't see the 99% of the work and the effort jujitsu. You brought

00:09:26.000 up jujitsu and I know you've been a long time practitioner of MMA. Uh, it's like, you see

00:09:30.520 somebody like, Oh, I could, I could do that. I could kick that guy's ass. And then you, you get,

00:09:36.300 you get on the mats or you get in the ring and you're like, Oh, this is real. You know, you can do it

00:09:42.400 when you're wrestling around with your eight year old kid and then you get in the mat with another

00:09:45.100 200 pound man. And you're like, Oh, this is different. You know, I showed up to my very

00:09:50.700 first jujitsu class. This was at, uh, at Eric Paulson's place. And this was, you know, a decade

00:09:55.220 or so ago. And I had a black belt and of course in Taekwondo and it was like, yeah, I'm going to

00:10:00.720 pick this up in like three weeks. I remember a couple hours later, literally lying in bed and just

00:10:08.380 shaking, like having almost like small seizures and trying to figure out what just happened to

00:10:15.420 me. And it was from guys that were 30 pounds lighter than me, you know, guys who I would

00:10:20.940 look at in the street and be like, Oh, you're adorable. Right. It just ate me alive. And I

00:10:26.660 realized that one I'm exhausted halfway through the warmup. So first of all, we haven't even gotten

00:10:31.640 to the juice yet and I don't know shit about shit. So you're right. It's, it's like so much of what

00:10:37.860 we see men doing or that you want to see men doing is like learning a language. You see them

00:10:43.820 writing the poetry, but you never see them sitting down and be like, that's a verb study those for a

00:10:48.920 year. That's a noun, right? Like that's a basic guard pass study that for a year. That's going to

00:10:55.220 be, but it's boring. I don't care. Get it down until you get this. You don't get to graduate on. And so

00:11:00.980 many guys, as you know, from jujitsu, like, uh, in the first six months they're out, right? That's like

00:11:07.040 the highest, the highest, uh, dropout rate is just in those first six months. You go, Oh, wow,

00:11:12.000 this will not be fun. It'll be, you know, awkwardly masochistically fun. Yeah. It's not

00:11:18.760 sick. It'll be fun. I think you're right. I mean, but not only is it boring, it's painful. And I'm not

00:11:27.720 just talking about jujitsu or physical exercise or activities. I'm just talking about putting yourself

00:11:32.980 in uncomfortable situations, which is something that I think you and I would agree is, is critical.

00:11:38.440 Critical is it's just uncomfortable and it's painful. Like you're going to look stupid. You're

00:11:43.380 going to feel stupid and, and you're going to, you're going to be silly and you're going to mess

00:11:47.840 up and it's going to cost you time and energy and resources. People are probably going to mock you

00:11:52.860 and, and, and poke at you. It's just not comfortable. And it's, I think that's what keeps a lot of guys

00:11:57.800 from doing it because we live in a society that's like instant gratification, like feel good. Like

00:12:02.900 give me my likes without any risk. Like, I don't, I don't want to be in pain at all.

00:12:07.740 And there's no risk to the ego hiding behind a screen where you go, go to a jujitsu class and

00:12:13.140 see what your ego does, where it's just, you just, you're losing and losing and losing and losing and

00:12:18.520 losing. Go try to surf. You're going to look like a kook for months. Like literally you are the

00:12:24.660 highlight reel on YouTube of like, look at this guy, absolute fool of himself. But yet that's the

00:12:31.640 price of entry. There is, you don't get to be where those guys are in the highlight reel until

00:12:36.500 you're willing to do that. And I agree that a lot of guys just aren't willing to, uh, to suck at

00:12:41.240 something, right? Especially once you're proficient at something else, then to go back into the, okay,

00:12:48.620 I'm a white belt. Now, whatever it is, whatever, whatever, whatever it is, it's really hard for guys to

00:12:53.980 make that leap back to like, okay, I can leave my ego in the car.

00:12:58.240 What is that what it is? Ego? I mean, do you think it's more than just ego or is it just,

00:13:01.540 Hey, I just want to, I just want to fool myself into thinking that I'm great and have everything

00:13:05.820 figured out? I think it's, you know, if this was 10 years ago, I'd say it's just ego.

00:13:11.480 Cause there was nothing, there wasn't like an overarching, not movement, but an overarching

00:13:18.320 sentiment for guys to say like, it's okay. We can just keep ourselves small. We can keep

00:13:22.900 ourselves down. We don't have to pursue that life or it's even going to be encouraged not to

00:13:28.240 societally. Like 10 years ago, it was like, I want to be that. And society was like, go do that.

00:13:34.240 Now I think there's a bit more of a undercurrent of it's okay. We'll just coddle you. You can feel

00:13:39.240 good at home. Just watch TV and look at your Instagram and be quiet. Don't make a lot of noise.

00:13:44.620 And you're great. You're a good man. We love you. You're a nice guy. Welcome to being a nice guy.

00:13:49.260 Okay. What do you think is the root of that? I mean, I have my own thoughts as to why,

00:13:53.100 cause I believe what you're saying and I agree, but what's the root of it? Why, why is that the case?

00:14:00.920 I'd say it's a multi-issued or multi-factored issue, right? Like again, social media playing

00:14:06.600 a big part into it. Uh, I think just generationally we have, uh, we, we've seen the, the over pendulum

00:14:13.940 swing of feminism. We've seen the pendulum swing, even after me too, of, Hey guys, we want you to

00:14:20.480 shut up, be quiet and stop leading the, the, the leading that we've seen in the past or the leading

00:14:26.580 that we're going to identify is toxic. So I think as an overarching issue that comes into play.

00:14:33.400 And then you do have the, like these things, and I'm holding up my cell phone are the single

00:14:38.640 greatest invention on earth and they're the devil, right? We can blow an entire weekend sitting there

00:14:45.200 texting with our friends, looking at social media, looking at women, getting dirty texts from women

00:14:50.900 and not leave the house and go, wow, I had all of these experiences that in the nineties, I would

00:14:58.120 have actually had to get up, put some clothes on, take a shower, go out and do some shit and maybe

00:15:03.140 get dirty, get hurt, fall down, look stupid, uh, take a risk. And we don't have that. That's not

00:15:09.940 the necessity anymore. Right. I think that's a big part of it. What do you think it is?

00:15:15.540 Yeah. I mean, I think, I think what you said is right. I think it's not a necessity. I think

00:15:19.500 generally humans are looking for the path of least resistance. Uh, and if it's presented to us that way,

00:15:24.780 then we're going to travel that path. Yeah, I was, it was funny. I was out here speaking of the

00:15:28.620 storm we have right now. I was out here last week cause we had some snow and

00:15:32.860 I was pushing my kids down a little hill that we have in the backyard. And the first time I pushed

00:15:38.280 them down, they went 40 yards. Right. And then the second kid went on that same path and he went

00:15:44.200 like 70 yards and then 80 yards. Right. Cause you smooth it down. Right. And so it's that path of

00:15:48.880 least resistance. And I think what we do as men is we entrench these behaviors, uh, about the way that

00:15:56.020 we live our life. And it just becomes hardwired into the way that we do it. And it's so easy,

00:16:01.140 right? Like you talk about in your book, it's so easy to sit on a computer and jack off to porn as

00:16:07.240 opposed to go out and court a woman and put yourself out there and expose yourself to risk.

00:16:11.920 It's so easy to look at other dudes on Instagram and see all the lifts they're doing than it is to

00:16:16.160 get up early. And in my case, go outside where it's cold and actually physically exert yourself.

00:16:22.820 So I think the fact that it's harder, but I also think that there's two other major factors. One

00:16:29.820 being that there's institutions and I think it's the media. I think it's the medical community to a

00:16:35.980 degree. And I think it's the government that has deliberately and intentionally undermining

00:16:40.540 masculinity. We can get into that. Sure. Um, and then I think there's a whole other subset,

00:16:45.460 a sub group of people who have bought into that lie that are now just following it blindly

00:16:50.680 without even really giving it thought. So they're not being devious or even intentional about the

00:16:56.240 undermining of masculinity. They're just going along with the narrative. Yeah. They're complicit.

00:17:00.680 Right. Yeah. That's the, when I, when I, when you brought up the original question, I thought

00:17:04.720 so many people, men and women are complicit in complacency. And that, that shows so accurately on us

00:17:12.660 that we are that primarily the doers, that's the leaders, the push forward,

00:17:17.440 the forge new ground to get out there and risk getting knocked in the dirt. And if men especially

00:17:23.160 aren't holding other men to it, it's like, Hey, what is a great gathering of men? Well, all winter,

00:17:28.680 what we do is we go sit inside all weekend. We watch football, we Instagram, we drink beer

00:17:32.760 and we don't do anything. And I have nothing against any of those pieces or even any of them in a group.

00:17:39.120 I have an issue when that's your life. Right. And that's at the end of the, at the end of the winter,

00:17:44.860 the end of the football season, the end of the summer, whatever, end of time, you're looking

00:17:48.780 back and going, man, I really wish I got out there and did some shit. And my, I really wish the guy

00:17:54.840 next to me was like, this isn't that much fun. This isn't that awesome. Look, there's a fucking

00:18:00.580 mountain right there. Let's go climb that mountain. Oh, let's go shoot that animal. Let's go, let's go

00:18:06.480 get into some adventure. Remember what 40, 50 years, remember what our grandfathers were doing? They

00:18:11.420 were walking across the damn country. They were like scaling mountains with like shitty rope and,

00:18:17.060 you know, crampons they made themselves and, and we're not. So yeah, I'd say complicit and

00:18:22.280 complacency, but I'd love to hear your thought on that trifecta of, was it media government and

00:18:27.520 especially medicine? Yeah. I mean, one, one indicator of that alone is the American Psychologicals

00:18:34.180 Association's, uh, quasi researched study on, uh, masculinity. And you actually, I don't think you

00:18:42.060 alluded to it in your book, but you, you tiptoed around it without, I think knowing. Um, but they

00:18:47.800 talked about, uh, traits that we would generally consider as masculine. So, um, competitiveness,

00:18:54.500 aggression, and stoicism as being somehow inherently dangerous, destructive, and, or toxic to our young

00:19:01.860 boys. It's like, dude, those competitiveness, aggressions, the stoicism, the control of your

00:19:08.800 emotions, the understanding and control of your emotions are, are dangerous. Like this is ridiculous.

00:19:13.920 And this is the body that's the governing body. That's dictating a lot of the way that, um,

00:19:19.340 psychological, uh, evaluations and treatment are administered in the United States. So if,

00:19:24.760 if they're undermining it, then what are treatment plans and, and, and young men who are coming into

00:19:30.920 psychologists getting this type of treatment, how are they going to be treated? Uh, and, and how are

00:19:36.400 they going to be diagnosed because they happen to be male and masculine? Right, right, right, right,

00:19:42.660 right. Yeah, I did talk about it. I didn't name the actual study, but I remember reading that and

00:19:47.920 thinking, you gotta be fucking kidding me. These are, those are three of my most highly, uh, generated

00:19:55.020 traits and the traits I celebrate the most and the traits I celebrate most in other men. Yes,

00:20:00.900 that's not saying that there doesn't have to be another side, that there doesn't have to be

00:20:04.900 emotional intelligence. There doesn't have to be sensitivity in men, but we don't, we don't just

00:20:10.780 push the, the softer side by killing and wiping out and, and shaming and, uh, eliminating the,

00:20:19.160 the side. You know, I remember Ryan, when I read that, I was like, there were just fires in California.

00:20:24.380 And I was like, really? There were huge fires all over Southern California and Santa Barbara,

00:20:30.000 especially. I was like, so you're going to tell the fire department what we, what the toxic traits

00:20:34.980 are leadership, aggression, and stoicism. You've got guys who were literally walking into, you know,

00:20:42.160 fields of fire with those three traits front and center. Like, are we going to stop? Like,

00:20:48.220 hey guys, you know what? Actually don't go fight that fire. The American Psychiatry Association

00:20:53.620 has just said that what, if you do this, you're toxic, right? We'd love for you to go home and

00:20:58.540 actually go to therapy and work on this. And we'll just let these fires rage. Like that's not happening.

00:21:04.160 And it's, it's the convenience of relative safety. You know, we can mock and bitch and moan and gripe

00:21:10.900 about toxic masculinity when we're in a safe environment. But when it all hits the fan,

00:21:15.560 like the fires you're talking about or natural disasters or an active shooter situation,

00:21:19.520 there was this, uh, this situation, this terrorist situation in London, just what a couple of days

00:21:24.620 ago. And I think there was three civilians who ended up subduing this guy, right? Right. You know,

00:21:29.820 nobody complains about toxic masculinity when, when men are doing what they do best. And people will

00:21:36.580 say the argument to that is, well, yeah, because they're not at that point, they're not exhibiting

00:21:40.680 toxic masculinity. They're, they're using it in a positive way. It's like, no, they're using the same

00:21:45.200 characteristics. They're just using it and harnessing it the same way. So it's like people

00:21:49.840 are conflating bad behavior with masculinity in and of itself, somehow being toxic.

00:21:57.320 Yeah. One of my more questioned and offensive lines to people is, uh, we're not going to get,

00:22:04.580 uh, um, if we got rid of toxic masculinity, who would do our killing for us? Right. As long as we're

00:22:10.760 asking men to be the ones out there with guns, if we're asking men to be the ones on the front

00:22:15.360 lines, police departments, fire departments, military, then there's always going to be an

00:22:21.000 element of quote unquote toxic masculinity. Cause you don't get to take a population and say, Hey,

00:22:27.120 if shit goes wrong, you guys here, we're going to be the ones to ask you to kill and die. Just,

00:22:32.640 just knowing that by the way, none of you are allowed to exhibit the exact same traits that we're

00:22:37.380 going to ask from, ask you for if that happens. Right. That to me, that like, Oh, that oftentimes

00:22:46.100 makes some heads turn sideways. Right. Hmm. Answer this for me. If, if we're in, and you know what,

00:22:52.500 maybe this is incorrect, but I asked a workshop this a couple of months ago, there were nine men,

00:22:58.100 nine women. And the issue of masculinity had come up. I was like, right now, let's all be honest.

00:23:03.620 If someone just came and banged on the door and you heard like, we're going to come in and can kill

00:23:09.540 you. How many of you men would want to, would ask yourselves like, where are the babies? Let's go

00:23:14.560 downstairs and hide with them. And how many of you women would go, okay, let's, let's crack our necks

00:23:19.680 armor up and go, go see at the door. Right. And maybe, you know, just call me crazy. Maybe it's

00:23:26.500 completely nurture and it's not nature, but it was split nine and nine. Then maybe my co-teacher who

00:23:33.680 was a pretty wild chick was like, I'll go fuck shit up at the door. I was like, okay. Other than

00:23:39.000 you, everybody else naturally picked their sides and we can say, is that nature? Is that nurture?

00:23:45.840 You know, you have boys, I've been around enough little boys and enough little girls say that ain't

00:23:50.820 nurture. No, a little boys around the house, just destroying whatever they can. Right. And each

00:23:57.580 other. And oftentimes the little girls are not. Right. Yeah. I think it's, I think it is biological

00:24:04.560 for the most part. Um, obviously your, your upbringing and the way you're raised and things

00:24:08.600 like that play a part, but overwhelmingly biological. And then it's supported societally, right? Because

00:24:13.500 it works. It hasn't been until relatively recently, this, this modern times of ease and comfort that we live

00:24:19.500 where that's even been called into question, right? Like it's, it's, it's always been expected.

00:24:26.100 There's a great book called manhood in the making by David Gilmore, I believe. And what he does in

00:24:31.740 the book is he goes, have you read the book? No, I haven't. It's really good. He it's, you know,

00:24:35.700 it's hard to get through, but, but it's a good book because it's more, more scientific, I guess,

00:24:40.380 and research in nature than like a self-help book or a novel. Yeah. But he studies different

00:24:46.500 cultures throughout the world and throughout history as well. And it's pretty interesting

00:24:51.760 that there are striking similarities in the way most cultures throughout all of time in history

00:24:58.020 view masculinity. And these are cultures that haven't even been exposed to each other.

00:25:02.460 Right. So that leads you to believe that it's got to be more biological than it does societal.

00:25:07.700 Yeah, man. I remember a conversation, this was a year or so ago with a very vehement feminist who was

00:25:14.080 probably five foot 102 pounds. And she literally looked me in the eye and said, you and I would be

00:25:21.440 the same strength, or I would be stronger than you. If I hadn't been from birth raised and conditioned

00:25:28.000 to believe that I wouldn't. And I went, she thought it was all just like social conditioning,

00:25:34.500 literally all social conditioning. Crazy. And I said, do you think that the only reason I don't have

00:25:39.860 ovaries is be, and I can't give birth to a child is because from birth, I've been socially conditioned

00:25:46.720 not to believe that. And that of course got kind of the head turned sideways and like, well, I don't

00:25:52.340 really want to continue this conversation. Right. It's like, come on, just so strange. I did not turn into

00:25:59.680 190 pounds because from birth, people were like, you're going to be really strong when you're older.

00:26:05.000 Right. If that's the way it worked, man, I'm going to raise some freaking horses out of my boys.

00:26:13.920 It's crazy. Oh yeah. That, yeah, man. When they're, when they're sleeping, it's just like,

00:26:19.960 you're going to be big. You're going to be strong. You're going to play in the NFL. Like

00:26:23.440 you're going to make so much money that daddy can retire early.

00:26:27.580 That's right. That's right. It's crazy, man. I don't know. Again, I mean, we know,

00:26:32.260 we know where it comes from. It's easy. It's been conditioned for us to believe this way or, or,

00:26:36.780 or the, the narrative anyway is being pushed, but you know, let me shift gears for a minute.

00:26:41.280 Talk to me. Cause I, I, I read your book, great book, by the way, actually it's like really

00:26:45.520 interesting. Cause I wasn't sure you sent it to me and I wasn't sure what I was going to get from it

00:26:49.580 as far as like how it was laid out. But I really like that. It's just like short and punchy and

00:26:56.180 in your face. Thank you. I really liked that from the perspective of, I don't have a long attention

00:27:02.620 span, but I also like, I also like getting right to the point of things like, like stripping all the

00:27:09.340 BS out of it and just getting right to the point. So talk to me about the uncivilized methodology or

00:27:16.480 ethos, if you will. Sure, sure, sure. You know, I wrote it specifically for that reason and for men

00:27:22.280 where, when I sat down with the woman who designed it, she's like, you can't have this be a novel.

00:27:27.920 You can't have this be 40 page chapters. You just got to hit guys to where they can almost open it at

00:27:33.880 any point and look right at it. And, and I came up with this idea, Ryan, because, you know, I did this

00:27:39.940 wild year of, of journey after my life fell apart a couple of years ago. And this was 2016. And I was

00:27:50.020 in search of answering the question of who am I now? I, my, my ex-wife and I had lost a pregnancy and

00:27:57.220 then she had walked out and then my business partnership had fallen apart, uh, all in a very

00:28:01.760 relative short time. So here I am kind of left without the pillars of identity that we hang our hats

00:28:08.820 on. I was like, God, who am I? And this was a brand new question, which I imagine you asked in a

00:28:14.360 similar situation, which is who am I as a man? And I went, Oh shit, I've never, I've never even thought

00:28:20.400 of that. And so all along this journey, I was looking towards men and I had very clear examples

00:28:27.580 or very delineated examples of some projects that I did. One being living in an ashram for a couple of,

00:28:34.320 for a couple of months in a spiritual center in Guatemala. And I met these beautiful men. I met

00:28:40.620 these heart open, yogi, vegan heart, you know, everything was about connecting with the divine

00:28:46.100 and living an artistic purpose. And I was like, you guys are amazing. Uh, I don't know how well you do

00:28:51.740 in New York city or, you know, like, uh, or in a fight, right? Sure. And can you pick, can you,

00:28:58.280 God bless you, but can you pick your body weight off the floor on a barbell? And I came from a MMA

00:29:03.620 background, a CrossFit background, an athletic background. So there was just something about

00:29:07.460 that style of masculinity that I thought I can take from this, but it's not complete.

00:29:12.840 And then I went and did a month long course with Boulder outdoor survival school, which was gnarly.

00:29:18.660 It's like just living in the woods with a knife, a water bottle, a blanket, and a bunch of dudes

00:29:24.520 who were far more mountain men than they were societal. Right. These are guys that were like,

00:29:30.600 I can just walk in the woods and not come back. Like, Oh, okay, cool. You're going to teach me

00:29:36.340 how to do a bunch of stuff too. How will you guys be with a family? How will you be interacting

00:29:42.300 with a woman? Because I actually do want to interact with women again. I do want to have a

00:29:47.060 family. I don't want to just be a hermit with my dog and my little tent, you know, a hundred miles

00:29:52.460 in the woods. So when I was coming off of that quest at the end of that year, I thought, huh,

00:29:59.100 I feel like I'm being asked to either go left or go right, either go ashram or go woods.

00:30:05.420 And what I really wanted was something in the middle. And so even though I joke with guys,

00:30:11.200 it's like, at the time I felt like my options were like, go be a Navy SEAL or be like a vegan

00:30:16.240 feminist poet. I don't know about those. Uh, where's the combination of the middle? Where is

00:30:24.860 the primal celebrating? What's amazing about traditional masculinity, which there is so much

00:30:30.440 and also the divine or the conscious, which is the emotional piece, the space holding the healing of

00:30:36.320 trauma, the healing of past wounds. And so, you know, the story is I was in New York city living with

00:30:42.560 a guy named Adam Cobb, another, uh, another Ted speaker. And we had gotten up at like five o'clock

00:30:48.200 in the morning to go to the gym. And the night before I led a men's group there and had a guy

00:30:54.020 asked me about losing weight and how he, uh, how he can navigate not going to McDonald's.

00:31:00.820 That was his challenge. And, and on the way to the gym in the morning, my, my, my buddy was like,

00:31:06.120 Hey, when was the last time you ate McDonald's? I was like, I don't know, man. Like, I actually don't

00:31:11.120 know. I think it maybe 20 years. Like I don't eat that shit. It's civilian food. And he stopped

00:31:17.320 Ryan and he took his phone out and he started filming me. And he's like, tell me about like,

00:31:22.020 what do you mean? Civilian food. And I was like, look at how we live, man. Like we're two single

00:31:27.200 guys in New York city. We don't have a TV. We don't have alcohol in the house. We don't have

00:31:31.440 drugs in the house. We're not just here banging a bunch of checks. Last night we, we stayed up and

00:31:36.220 talked about how our relationship with our fathers is, has shaped us. Like this isn't how civilized

00:31:43.220 men live. And we went downstairs, we went to the gym, we worked out real hard. And the whole time

00:31:48.620 I was thinking like, huh, what is the, what is the outcome of living in civil quote civilization,

00:31:56.120 right? The standard path for men who aren't diving into work like yours and mine, who aren't following

00:32:01.100 podcasts, who aren't going to workshops, who aren't connecting with other intentional men.

00:32:05.920 What is the outcome for them? And I thought, okay, every negative statistic I see from heart disease,

00:32:13.340 from assault, domestic violence, divorce, addiction, porn, alcohol, that's the, that's what happens when

00:32:21.600 you plug into the machine. That's what happens when that's what civilizing will do to you. So what if I

00:32:28.340 can put something together to give guys another option and uncivilize them? So that's how it all

00:32:33.620 came about. Man, let me hit the pause button real quick. Uh, as I'm sure, you know, habits,

00:32:39.660 habits make the man. Uh, we've all heard the quote. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not

00:32:45.200 an act, but a habit. And that's exactly what we're going to be covering inside of our exclusive

00:32:50.200 brotherhood, the iron council this month habits. Uh, we're uncovering how to eliminate habits that

00:32:55.600 don't serve us, uh, discovering ones that do and implementing systems and processes to ensure that

00:33:01.480 we incorporate the right habits into our lives. So if you're interested in banding with us and

00:33:07.080 creating the frameworks that will ensure your success on the family front and career front and

00:33:12.260 financial front and health front and every other area of life, then head to order of man.com

00:33:18.060 slash iron council. You're going to learn more. And of course you can lock in your spot along with

00:33:22.340 500 other men who are on similar paths as you. Uh, in addition to that, we've got my conversation

00:33:28.000 with James clear author of atomic habits, joining me on the podcast next month to do a deeper dive

00:33:33.680 into you guessed it habits. So again, head to order of man.com slash iron council to learn more

00:33:40.680 about the brotherhood and claim your seat at the table. You can do that after the podcast for now,

00:33:46.280 let's get back to the conversation with Traver. I love it, man. I love it. Cause I, you know,

00:33:51.260 when you're saying that, I think the word that comes to mind for me is domestication. Right. And

00:33:56.020 I think we're talking about something that's very, very similar is, you know, tapping into that primal

00:34:00.760 primal side of us without being, without being a savage either. Right. Like that's not, that's not

00:34:07.560 the objective either. Right. Do you get that a lot? Do people conflate what, what you're trying to do

00:34:13.320 with, Hey, we're just trying to be uncivilized, I guess, you know what I mean? Or the opposite of that.

00:34:18.220 I use the play on words, obviously, but I've got people who are extremely triggered by that word

00:34:25.760 extremely. And you know, I was, uh, taking a cab, I was in Hawaii and split a cab with this woman who

00:34:32.260 just, I randomly met. I was like, Oh, you're waiting for a cab. I'm waiting for a cab and no

00:34:36.320 cabs had come. Thus, we decided to take one together. And she asked what I do. And I said,

00:34:40.000 I'm, you know, my goal is to uncivilize men and her head whipped to the side. Like I'd slapped her.

00:34:46.340 And she's like, uncivilized is what happens in Vegas. Uncivilized is what happens at my work

00:34:51.800 every day. And I was like, Holy shit. Like, first of all, take a breath. First of all,

00:34:56.520 I'm sorry. That's your life experience and take a breath. Let me explain that that's actually what

00:35:02.320 civilized men do. That's men who go back to work on Monday or go back to their wives on Sunday night

00:35:08.660 or, or have bought into the way of the unexamined unintentional way of men. So yeah, I do get some

00:35:16.620 kickback to it and that's fine. I did this to create conversation, not just to add more vanilla

00:35:22.920 into the world of, you know, like just be a guy, just more noise, right? More white noise, more just

00:35:29.740 blah. How did you come up with the, the four topics or points that you had made in the book as well?

00:35:36.980 Like, how did you distill it down into that? The fight, fuck, feed, feel. Yeah. That was what I

00:35:42.960 thought men need to know right now. Like two of them are the primal fight and fuck that's primal,

00:35:49.160 right? If a man doesn't know his own body, doesn't know, isn't cultivating strength, whether that fight

00:35:55.740 is, you know, I know how to wrestle with a guy on a mat or I know how to set a goal and go fight for

00:36:02.400 it. I know how to fight for my family. I know how to fight for my vision to bring my vision to life.

00:36:07.660 If you're not doing that, life's hard and life's not, it's, it's hard's not the right term.

00:36:15.000 Life's numb, right? Life is uninspired. So fight for something and then fuck, right? I teach a lot

00:36:23.160 about sexuality. I teach, I talk to women all day long and men who are like, I don't have a good sex

00:36:29.400 life. I'm not, I have so much shame around sex. And you know, is it just fucking? No, I have a big

00:36:35.820 plaque in my office that says, fuck them with words. And that's my writing mantra. It's like,

00:36:41.580 let's, let's get back to admitting that guys like to tussle and we like to fuck things. And guess what?

00:36:47.800 Yeah. So do women. So let's just forget about not talking about that. So that was the primal side.

00:36:53.520 And then the divine side, we got to feed our souls, right? We have to feed ourselves information,

00:37:01.060 knowledge, education, and feed our lives, feed our families with that same thing. As opposed to just,

00:37:07.660 I can spend two hours on Instagram and I can come away with having looked at a lot of little pictures

00:37:13.580 and some, you know, some dopamine, but I'm not taking a class. I'm not interested. I'm not listening

00:37:19.320 to a podcast. I'm not reading a book. Like you, you probably know as well as like the average,

00:37:24.000 I think after high school, the average American reads zero books.

00:37:28.480 Yeah. It's insane. I mean, we have so much great information out there. It's like,

00:37:32.940 why wouldn't you consume this? It's crazy. And, and I, I'm curious of like, if it's actually zero,

00:37:38.060 are people reading less than zero? Because I read like a book a week, but let's just say the number is

00:37:43.220 not good. So feed yourself, feed and feed your soul, feed yourself with art, feed yourself with,

00:37:49.580 with, with inspiration. And then lastly, guys got to feel, we absolutely need to feel before we get

00:37:58.740 to bypass feelings. We have to feel them. It doesn't mean we have to let them take us on this

00:38:04.680 journey and live entirely from feeling, right? I am an advocate of stoicism, but I'm an advocate of

00:38:11.680 saying, I know what I feel first. Now I'm going to make the decision to not let that completely

00:38:18.300 derail and guide me. Right? We don't, we just have to look at male mental health rates or even

00:38:22.980 male suicide rates and say, okay, I don't want guys crying all day long. Right? I don't think

00:38:29.680 that's the purpose, but yet if you have an authentic emotion, express it so you can get back to doing

00:38:36.760 what you're supposed to be effing doing. And not only express it, but express it in a constructive

00:38:43.620 way. I think that's where it becomes a problem. Like if you're expressing emotions because,

00:38:48.520 and I've said to my boys, Hey, now's not the time to cry. And, and people will look at that

00:38:55.160 and judge that negatively. Although that's reality. Like there's a time and a place to cry

00:39:00.920 and there's a time and a place not to cry. And, and I think if we can understand what those two are,

00:39:07.760 not that it's never cry and not that it's always cry, right? It's a much more healthy approach to

00:39:13.000 life. Completely agree. And that's very different though, than boys don't cry. Sure. Boys never

00:39:19.740 cry. There has to be context and depth and meaning behind it. Absolutely. Men never cry. That is a

00:39:25.220 terrible. It's a destructive sentence, but I agree with you. And you know, I've, I've wrote about,

00:39:31.180 I've asked, we, we hear all of this. We want more sensitive men. I want more sensitive men. And even

00:39:35.800 guys that guys need to be more vulnerable. We need to be more sensitive. Like, okay. Who said,

00:39:40.720 who says that? I hear this from women. All women. Yeah. Mostly. Do you think that's what women really

00:39:47.160 want? Ryan, I've done this. Like actually ask them, okay, you want a more vulnerable? I was like,

00:39:56.560 I did this in a workshop. Imagine if you have a guy that twice a year breaks down because something

00:40:02.520 happens. There's, there's a reason for it. And he expresses emotion. He cries in front of you and

00:40:08.020 says like, Oh, my dad died. My dog died. This thing I'm blah, blah, blah. Once or twice a year.

00:40:12.340 I'm like, Oh my God, that would be beautiful. Like, okay. How about once a month? They're like,

00:40:19.100 well, yeah, you know, maybe that would like, okay. How about once a week? Like,

00:40:24.640 like, how about once a day or more often than you are? Right. And it's like the look of disgust.

00:40:33.140 I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. If we go back nine minutes in this conversation,

00:40:36.740 when all seven of you just said, I want more vulnerable, sensitive men. Is there a specific

00:40:42.280 line? Is it like once every three months, a guy gets a quota? Or is it actually that you don't want

00:40:48.160 someone that's more sensitive and vulnerable? You want someone who has access to that sensitivity

00:40:54.580 and vulnerability and can decide and make a choice. Am I going to express this? Am I not? As opposed to a

00:41:02.180 guy that's just overrun and falling down with emotion all the time. So no, I also think it's a

00:41:08.500 societal dogma that it's like, you want to get a bunch of women to clap and tell you you're doing

00:41:13.940 great. Just stand up and yell. We need more vulnerable men. No, that's a great distinction

00:41:19.980 because it's easy to say you want something. And then when you get it, it's like, Oh, maybe I didn't

00:41:27.400 really want that. And I, and I think the point that you made where you said, you said, um, I think

00:41:34.420 you said a man makes his choice on whether or not he expresses it. I might take that a step further

00:41:38.780 and say is very conscious and intentional about how he expresses it. Right. So I love that you're

00:41:45.000 talking about being tapped into it and having this understanding and feeling and knowing where you come

00:41:49.880 from. But if you're boobing around all day, like an idiot, and you're doing that in front of your

00:41:54.920 woman, you're undermining your own authority and credibility and leadership efforts in front of

00:41:59.560 her. Now, if you approach it with the attitude of, Hey, you know, hon, I've, I've been dealing with

00:42:05.360 it and I've had conversations with my wife about this. I've been dealing with this stuff at work

00:42:09.220 and I'm a little frustrated at now because X, Y, and Z. And, um, you know, it's got me down,

00:42:13.980 but here's what I'm going to do about it. Like that's an expression of emotion, potentially even a

00:42:20.220 display of vulnerability. If you want to use that term, I'm cautious to use that term and tell

00:42:24.760 you why. Um, but it's also a masculine approach because it's done from the position of action

00:42:32.560 and results oriented. I'm doing this because I'm trying to fix it, not just for the sake of doing

00:42:39.580 it. Yeah. Guys, you know, what's popping my head is we just need to have access to our hearts

00:42:44.900 and admit that they exist and understand that we can run feelings and energy through them.

00:42:51.640 If we don't like the difference between clean anger and rage is one comes through your heart.

00:42:57.580 I'm allowed to be angry. I'm telling you that I'm angry. That's very different than punching a hole

00:43:02.700 in the wall. Right. And, and throwing something, one of which bypasses our hearts. So I completely

00:43:08.720 agree with you that there is a way to say it. And it's, it's, I'm not a fan of the word vulnerability

00:43:14.320 either. I go back to jujitsu. Like, what do you want me to be up? Like a vulnerable. Why would I

00:43:19.360 want to show you my weaknesses? Yeah. Do you want me to have like vulnerable finances? So like, Oh yeah,

00:43:24.040 I just like, do you leave your front door unlocked? No, you have to have good boundaries. And yet let's

00:43:29.760 also be honest. So if your partner comes to you and says, I can tell something's on your mind or

00:43:34.880 bothering you, what is it? It's very different to say, you know what I am. I'm frustrated at work.

00:43:39.400 I have this situation. I'm not sure what to do with it. I think I'm going to do X, Y, or Z,

00:43:43.680 or I am going to do X, Y, or Z. That's a very different conversation than nothing. I'm fine.

00:43:49.180 Right. In which case you shut her out and you've actually just denied the reality of the situation.

00:43:54.720 That's very different again, of then putting your head in her lap and crying for the next four hours

00:44:00.120 because work is tough. Right. Right. Jiu-jitsu choke me.

00:44:04.280 This is the root. This is, yeah, that's the point. You're supposed to get choked and choke other

00:44:12.120 people. Um, this is why women leave men though. Yeah. And they usually leave for,

00:44:18.920 maybe this is not fair to say, but it seems to me they leave for men who aren't good for them

00:44:23.900 because they're so sick of the nice guy and the cry baby that they need to reprieve from that.

00:44:29.660 So they're like, let me go to this bad boy, this guy who's not good, who's not healthy for me.

00:44:36.000 Right. Uh, and they ended up making these mistakes because of it. But, and I'm not going to say it's

00:44:40.480 a man's fault, but look, if, if that's how you're behaving, if you're the perpetual nice guy and,

00:44:47.020 and you're crying like incessantly and you're not coming up with, with answers to your own problems,

00:44:52.640 like how, how, how long is she going to be attracted to that? I mean, she's going to be repulsed by it.

00:44:57.380 Repulsed is the word, right? Like the actual word when I've asked women, it's repulsive. One of the

00:45:03.080 tenants of the ethos is be dangerous, but not a danger. And that is extremely attractive to women

00:45:10.800 and to other men. It's, I have the capacity to create great violence and I don't, therefore I

00:45:18.520 don't like, as you know, in the communities that we're in, there aren't a lot of jujitsu guys going

00:45:23.260 out and getting in street fights. No, I know a lot of guys and I've been in the situation where

00:45:28.680 I've just kind of laughed and be like, trust me one, you don't want to do this too. I'm not going

00:45:33.200 to get sued in a part over a parking space, right? So fucking down and choke your ass out. So here,

00:45:38.880 have the parking space, go for it, right? Be dangerous, but not a danger. I think when you're

00:45:44.160 intuitively, when a woman knows that you are not dangerous, then she intuitively knows you cannot

00:45:50.840 protect her, her offspring, or even yourself. And maybe some women are attracted to that,

00:45:58.000 that are hyper dominant, but the vast majority are not. And that statement can be taken across,

00:46:03.460 not just the physical, but are you dangerous at work, right? Are you good? You have your game down.

00:46:08.980 Are you skilled? Are you dangerous in your finances? Like, yep, I understand the market. I know how to do

00:46:14.080 things. Are you, you're, you're dangerous. Your marketing is dangerous. It's real damn good,

00:46:18.300 right? It's not a danger. You're not using the toxic shadow side of, you know, it's not a picture

00:46:24.360 of you in like doing a yoga pose in your skivvies. I was thinking about doing that. And then I figured

00:46:29.520 everybody would be repulsed to use that word again. And, and I'd lose a lot of people.

00:46:36.960 Yeah, that would be, that would be really strange. Not only because it would be inappropriate. It's just

00:46:41.840 going to be strange. Cause I really just don't engage in that behavior at all. So yeah, no, I like

00:46:50.160 that. I think it is important. I, and I also think that's the, um, well, the term that you'd use is,

00:46:55.840 is the X factor, right? When, whether, whether it's a man or a woman who observes another man

00:47:02.540 who is a dangerous, but not a danger. What I hear is they're competent. And because they're competent,

00:47:10.720 they've developed a sense of confidence that they don't need to go tell everybody. Like it's,

00:47:14.620 it's the old adage of, you'd never take your car to like honest auto care, right? Because if they

00:47:20.220 have to tell you they are, they aren't. Right, right, right, right, right. So if you have a,

00:47:24.740 if you've got a guy who's like, I'm amazing and I'm rich and I can kick your ass and I can do all

00:47:30.500 these things. Like, I don't know if you can, because quite honestly, somebody who can do that

00:47:35.400 won't need to share it and other people will just sense it.

00:47:39.600 Right. The, you, you are in the military. It's like the quietest guys in the room are the ones

00:47:43.600 everyone's like, I don't know. I don't want to, I don't want to mess with them. Don't mess with

00:47:46.560 that guy. Right. And the Jersey shore guy was just like, hold me back. I'm going to eat everybody's

00:47:52.320 out. Okay. Calm down cupcake. Yeah. Yeah. No. And the other thing you talk about is as well as you

00:48:00.180 talk about, and you, we alluded to this a little bit from the feeling perspective, but you talked

00:48:04.340 about earlier, um, a lot of guys have problems with intimacy, intimacy and sex. And I think the

00:48:11.020 root of that is you said shame. I'm really curious where, where you go with that. Sure. The most women

00:48:18.840 I've met, and this is a shitty thing to say, but it's true, have been traumatized in some way by a man

00:48:27.580 sexually. I've taught self-defense for long enough to say who in the room has been, has fought off a

00:48:34.180 rapist, a sexual assault, something. And every hand in the room goes up. And I thought, okay,

00:48:39.180 well maybe that's just people coming to a self-defense workshop. Then I got asked to teach

00:48:43.360 where they didn't know I was going to come in. And I, and the same thing, you know, eight out of

00:48:47.800 10 hands go up. I was like, holy shit, that's a lot of women. And yet I think if we ask men,

00:48:52.980 how often have you felt ashamed or been shamed, like literally been laughed at, been pointed,

00:49:00.460 something that made you feel small and, um, and bad, you know, quote unquote bad, you're a bad person.

00:49:07.780 You're a bad boy for their sexuality. That leads to their sexuality being expressed through shadow

00:49:15.120 means, through pornography, through violence, through violating consent, through not having

00:49:22.480 authentic expression. Like I asked a lot of guys, do you know what turns your woman on?

00:49:29.480 And I'll get the, like, yeah, she likes it when I finger her. Like, no, no, no. That's,

00:49:34.120 that wasn't what I was asking. Do you know what turns her on beyond friction? And beautiful. Some

00:49:40.560 may, many, many don't. And then I'll ask them, does your woman know what turns you on?

00:49:46.440 And they'll be like, yeah, she, she, I, she, I like it when she blows me. Like, no, no, no. Of

00:49:51.920 course you do. Uh, I get it. But what turns you on beyond, beyond friction as well? And have you,

00:50:00.540 and are you willing to say that? Are you, are you okay looking your woman in the eye and saying,

00:50:05.780 Hey, this is what I like. This is what I love about sex. This is what I want to do with you.

00:50:10.640 This is why I want to do that. Or is that like a nail biting? Oh my God. I can't talk to my wife

00:50:16.440 about that. Right. I had a couple in a workshop. This is amazing. A month ago. And half of the

00:50:23.360 workshop is I blindfold the women and have the men lead them around only using voice commands and

00:50:29.940 then have them blindfold the men and same thing. And at the end of this section, I asked this couple

00:50:35.140 who've been together for seven years. I was like, how was that for you? And the woman was like,

00:50:40.040 I loved blindfolding him and leading him around. Like that was amazing. And I was like, how was that

00:50:48.000 for you, sir? And he kind of got a little blushy and was like, I loved when she blindfolded me and

00:50:55.520 led me around. I was like, first of all, you guys owe me a Christmas card. Yeah, for sure.

00:51:00.420 Have fun tonight. And why did it take seven years for you guys to not have this conversation of,

00:51:07.720 hey. And oftentimes, Ryan, it is because at some point someone got shamed and therefore

00:51:15.680 that feeling in their body of like, I can't talk about this. I can't talk about sex, right? Sex and

00:51:22.360 money. It's crazy how much shame and hiddenness we have around them. So that's what I do with it is

00:51:29.840 first like have guys, you know, and I've done this in workshops. It's like, okay, tell the guy sitting

00:51:36.040 across from you. What's the one thing you wish you had more from your, in your sex life with your

00:51:40.400 wife. And if you can't tell a dude who's like, Hey, I got no judgment. And by the way, I got to

00:51:46.240 answer this question too. So we're both kind of in this together. Right. If you can't say it to him,

00:51:51.700 how are you going to say it to your, the person who has the ability to reject you to person has

00:51:57.300 the ability to hurt you as the ability to go, Oh my God, I can't believe you want to do that.

00:52:01.400 You effing weirdo. Right. So it seems to me it's, it's judgment and fear of rejection.

00:52:09.540 So, I mean, look, let's, let's be real about this. Those are two threats that those are real.

00:52:15.560 Like those are legitimate threats. So how do you overcome that when it comes to being intimate with

00:52:21.840 your spouse? First, you have to own it in yourself. So can you actually say it out loud? Can you say it

00:52:28.740 to the person in the mirror? You're like, I really want my woman to suck on my toes.

00:52:34.320 That turns me on. I really like power dynamics. It's a lot of what I teach is power dynamics of

00:52:39.620 dominance and submission. Right. Are you willing to say that? Are you willing? I am, I am a dominant

00:52:45.600 person sexually. I am a in quotes dominant in that world. So in order for me to one, before I can say

00:52:52.600 that on a date, I have to be able to say it to you on a podcast. And I get it. Not everybody's being

00:52:56.900 interviewed and all the things, but is it, would you be okay with your friends? No, would you be

00:53:01.240 okay with your, your guy friends knowing? Would you be okay? Just again, first and foremost, just

00:53:07.160 being able to say it out loud. You know, I'm, I know you've done goal setting with people where I've

00:53:12.120 said like, tell me this thing you want to be. And they're like, I want to be a writer. Like, I'm sorry.

00:53:17.500 What was that? Yeah. Say it a little louder, please. Like what? And then tell they can actually,

00:53:25.460 it's okay. But it's the same thing. It's rejection. It's fear. It's, it's, um, fear of

00:53:31.960 abandonment. So really it's owning it in yourself. And then I say to creating a life that affirms to you,

00:53:39.700 I am, I am powerful. I'm strong. I'm confident. I'm going to be okay. If this person says like,

00:53:44.800 oh my God, dominance, what an awful person you are. I just shake her hand and go, Hey,

00:53:49.000 you're not the right person for me. Go have a great life. Right. As opposed to, oh my God,

00:53:53.060 she's right. I'm such a horrible person. I never should have said that. I can't believe it. My mom

00:53:57.500 was right. My sisters were right. Society's right. Oh my God. It's so awful. So it's, it's really first

00:54:03.260 owning it with yourself. And then it becomes Ryan a practice, right? You don't jump in with your wife

00:54:09.340 is like seven years in and be like, Hey, can I, can we talk tonight? I've always wanted to tie you up and beat you

00:54:14.340 with whips and pour hot wax on you and do this in the middle of Madison square garden. Yeah. She

00:54:20.120 might be, she might be slightly creeped out by that. So start by just naming a simple desire and,

00:54:28.980 and deal with what comes up in your body of like, Oh my God, uh, I had to do this exercise brother at a,

00:54:35.160 uh, a workshop at Esalen where the woman said for a week, you have to be inconvenient to people.

00:54:42.840 And I was like, Oh, I just, I look my, you know, and I fought in a fucking cage, man, multiple times.

00:54:50.720 And yet I sit there with my hands shaking and be like, Hey, would you guys mind clearing my dinner

00:54:56.620 plate tonight? And, and just sit there like, and that's a really good activity, man. I like that.

00:55:04.000 Especially for a guy who prides himself on being, I'm not inconvenient. I'm hyper competent.

00:55:09.140 Right. As in the family I grew up in, I was worried about getting booted all the time or being

00:55:13.680 abandoned. So I had to make myself like, no, no, no. I got everything. I can handle everything.

00:55:18.760 So you start with little stuff like that, as opposed to the high voltage, you know, perhaps

00:55:23.800 sexual ask and get used to owning one. I'm worth having someone clear my dinner plate for.

00:55:30.300 And then what do you know? They just said, sure. And I did it. And I didn't, it was no big deal.

00:55:37.480 It was truly like 0.01% of a big deal to them. Even though my heart rate was beating out of my

00:55:44.480 chest and I was pouring sweat. So you start down because those like societal challenges

00:55:49.940 are, are really good. I did one where I think it was for a week or so. I had to ask for a discount

00:55:58.060 every time I spent money. So if I was at like the retail store, I'm like, Hey, what's your

00:56:03.320 discounts? If I was at, you know, McDonald's, cause we were talking about McDonald's earlier.

00:56:06.940 Hey, can you give me a free meal? Like I had to ask for a discount or something else every single

00:56:12.380 time I went. And it was so uncomfortable at first. And at the end I was like, even, even when they said

00:56:17.700 they're like, no, we don't have deals. I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. Just thought I'd ask.

00:56:20.320 Yeah. And it was like, no big deal.

00:56:22.480 But how was it the first time? Right. Or the second time it was so miserable. Cause I told

00:56:27.020 myself all kinds of stories. And the story that I told myself is I don't want people to think one

00:56:33.720 of two things. I don't want people to think I'm cheap. Yeah. And I don't want people to think I'm

00:56:38.880 broke. And those were the two stories that I had wrapped that I had made, you know, created.

00:56:45.320 Yeah. Nobody thought that. I mean, maybe a few people thought that, but very few people actually

00:56:50.380 thought that I was cheap or that I was broke. Right. And when I kind of broke those stories,

00:56:55.740 it freed myself to not have to be concerned with the fact that people may or may not think I have

00:57:01.940 money or don't. It's irrelevant to me. It doesn't matter what they think about my financial status.

00:57:06.640 Absolutely. You are an, you are independent of the good opinion of other people, which is a massive,

00:57:12.880 massive bridge to walk over. And do we, are we able to do it a hundred percent fully

00:57:18.820 without being a sociopath? I'm not sure, but can you get much, much better at it?

00:57:24.020 Cause what did that lesson, you know, it taught me that I can ask for stuff and I've done the same

00:57:28.880 thing, asking for discounts and, and even practice, you know, like, Hey, would you guys,

00:57:33.280 would you like to us to bag this for you? I'm like, yep, please bag it, you know, at the grocery

00:57:37.500 store and then sit there and be like, I can bag it myself. You can bag it yourself. You don't lift all

00:57:40.680 these weights. So you can't bag stuff, all the story. But then again, in relationship,

00:57:46.900 if we go back to that dynamic, how healthy is it to be able to ask for a need to be met

00:57:53.040 or to feel like you have the right, that you have the worth. So to go back to your original question,

00:58:00.400 you build a self-esteem and a self-worth that allows for the rejection and the fear to come

00:58:06.960 and you not to take it in and take it on and let it dictate how you think about and feel about

00:58:12.420 yourself and therefore dictate your actions. Yeah. Those stories are hard to break, man.

00:58:18.840 Cause they've been conditioned since the time we're little. I mean, especially when it comes to,

00:58:23.020 uh, rejection, I even think about this on the path to masculinity. You know, there's things that I've

00:58:27.780 said or asked other people that, that were mentors or I thought they were, and they made me feel stupid

00:58:35.060 for asking it. And I thought to myself, I'm like, man, like how else would I've ever learned this?

00:58:40.200 I don't know how to do that. Like I have to ask at some point, I didn't know how to do it. So like,

00:58:44.460 why would you make people feel stupid? It's something I'm actually very aware with my kids

00:58:48.340 is when they ask me things, even in my head, I'm like, Oh, why are they asking me this dumb

00:58:51.700 question? I'm like, it's actually not a dumb question. Like they don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Like

00:58:56.900 how else are they going to know unless they ask? And so I make a very conscious effort not to mock or

00:59:01.840 belittle, uh, my kids for asking questions. Uh, one thing for, for, uh, being attracted,

00:59:08.340 like my, my oldest is getting more attracted to, to girls now. And yeah, I'm, I don't tease them

00:59:14.620 about girlfriends because being attracted to girls is healthy. So I'm not going to tease them about it.

00:59:20.280 And I do the same thing with my daughter. I don't tease her for thinking a boy's cute. Cause that's

00:59:25.580 good behavior. That should be encouraged. Yeah. Think of how much in the, I get a lot of guys that come

00:59:30.480 to me fresh out of divorces and they're entering into the dating world again. And these are guys with

00:59:36.880 huge business companies of a thousand employees. They've, they've, they've accomplished so much

00:59:41.580 in their life and we'll come up and say, well, how do I, how do I walk up and start talking to her?

00:59:46.700 Yeah. Like you, you, and it go back to, you know what it is. How do I not feel how I felt

00:59:52.300 in third grade when I told my buddies, I like Susan and they all went Brian and Susan sitting in a tree,

00:59:59.140 you know, and they shamed them. Yep. And that, that sensation is in like the core of their gut

01:00:04.580 that that that's what they're trying to work around. So I agree. It's your, our lives as adults

01:00:09.660 is managing and reorganizing those stories into what's true now, which is, that's just another

01:00:17.060 person standing there drinking coffee. I have, I'm more than welcome to go up and politely

01:00:21.760 engage in conversation with her. And there's nothing wrong with liking girls.

01:00:26.780 Right. Right. Well, I think that's the thread of, of, of your book, you know, and going through this is

01:00:32.860 putting yourself out there, taking risks, taking chances, uh, stepping into challenges,

01:00:41.520 because the more that we do that in every context, I think the better off we're going to be in the

01:00:46.020 easier things become, not because those things are easier, but because we're more adequately

01:00:51.180 prepared to handle those things physically, mentally, emotionally. And that's why I really

01:00:56.400 liked the concept of the book and the uncivilized life. It just makes total sense to me.

01:00:59.520 Thanks, man. It's, it's not life. It's not easy to be human. Stuff's going to happen.

01:01:06.340 Right. And there, there is no day. I think it was David data is like, there's no day when this

01:01:10.700 just magically stops being hard. When you just run, it's like, Oh wow, I'm 46. I'm a millionaire.

01:01:16.920 I've, I've done all the things I've climbed the mountains. Like my life's just going to be on

01:01:20.060 cruise control for the next 78 years till I die. That does not happen. And I think for most guys,

01:01:25.960 if they're honest, if it did it, like the two week point, I would be like chewing on the leg of the

01:01:31.600 table. I'm going to see how many pushups I can do next month. I'm going to figure out some way to

01:01:37.240 create a challenge. So if we can shift the focus away from challenge bad to, Oh, holy shit. Challenge

01:01:45.340 good. That's, this is it, man. Like I want to rub up against things. I want to, I want to learn.

01:01:51.680 And I want to have to ask that question. Like, Hey Ryan, I don't know how to do this thing. Do you

01:01:55.200 know how to do it? Beautiful. Yeah. I'll show you. I want to figure stuff out on my own. I want to

01:02:00.560 have, be like hands deep in life. I want it to be an adventure. Like that word, like guys used to be

01:02:06.180 seeking adventure all the time. I remember my dad saying he, he hiked across the Adirondacks for like

01:02:11.840 an entire summer. And I'm saying he like had a sickle and he like took the head off a rattlesnake one

01:02:17.600 time. And he told me that story as a kid. And I was like, he is the coolest guy. I think that

01:02:26.800 sense was like instilled in us, you know, books, books when we were kids were all about guys going

01:02:33.100 on adventures. Yeah. Huck Finn. And yeah, right. Well, I'll call the wild like stuff where you're

01:02:39.740 like, Holy shit. These guys, the last American man. I mean, there's so many amazing books of,

01:02:45.100 of adventure, but it's not an adventure without challenge guys. Like, it's not like I got in the

01:02:50.600 car and then I just drove super smooth and then I showed up. That's my adventure. Right.

01:02:55.680 Yeah. It's, it's the risk and it's the risk and the challenge and the heartache and the hardship

01:03:01.540 and the, and the valleys that actually make it meaningful. Cause if it didn't have that,

01:03:06.300 there would be no purpose or meaning to it. There really wouldn't. I mean, it might be nice

01:03:10.860 occasionally, you know, you win the lottery. You're like, cool. One lottery. I mean, I'm not

01:03:15.280 going to, I'm not going to say that wouldn't be a good thing, but at the same time, fighting for the

01:03:19.840 business and, and being in my financial planning practice for 10 years, almost before moving into

01:03:25.160 this and struggling for a couple of years and getting this off the ground. Now it's like, man,

01:03:29.600 there's a lot more significance in what I'm doing. Cause I created it, you know?

01:03:33.920 Hell yeah. I remember your post about, uh, like one guy came to my event, one guy showed up for my

01:03:41.020 thing. I led so many events in New York was like, you, you're the only person do a webinar,

01:03:46.860 like one woman and I'm sleeping with her, but she came to my webinar. There's one, like nobody shows

01:03:53.320 up. And now in hindsight, I'm so glad that every time I was like, F this, I'm quitting. My buddy was

01:04:00.540 like, do not quit. If you got, doesn't matter. Talk to anybody who's anybody who's anywhere.

01:04:06.600 And they're going to go back and tell you about those early challenges. But even for a guy,

01:04:10.900 like when I look up to you and go, Oh my God, it happened to forget. It's like, wait a minute.

01:04:15.820 He didn't just start a podcast and have them listen on the first week. He didn't just like, Oh,

01:04:23.620 he just moved to a house in Maine. It's crazy. That must've just been like where he's lived for. Oh no,

01:04:28.980 there's all of this, all of this struggle. I think we intuitively know that, but we just hide it

01:04:35.340 because we just, you know what? I think what it is, is it's an excuse. So for example, if I look at

01:04:44.540 your success and I think, well, you know, Traver's got all this stuff figured out and look how

01:04:49.320 successful he is with, you know, he did the Ted talk and now he's got this book and he's so successful.

01:04:53.920 If I can discount what it took for you to get it, then that lets me off the hook. Cause I'm really

01:05:01.900 not willing to do all that work you had to do. So if I can just say, Oh, he just had luck. Like

01:05:07.460 he was just in the right place at the right time. Then it discounts what I have to do. And, and also

01:05:12.980 at this point, I just have to wait. Like, I just have to wait to get lucky as soon as my ship comes

01:05:18.140 in. Then I'll be good too. And so it just has all the work and effort that's required to get some

01:05:23.720 level of success in our lives. Exactly. I hear it. It's a joke amongst public speakers where we hear

01:05:30.220 one of the most ubiquitous lines I hear is you're so lucky. You're a good speaker. Yeah. Like I have

01:05:35.940 masterminds. I have hired coaches. I have flown all over the world. I have thrown up behind backstage.

01:05:42.140 I have freaked out on, you have no idea how lucky I am to be a good speaker. Yeah. Go F off.

01:05:51.240 Yeah. Well, I think that's why it's really important that we'd be realistic about what

01:05:55.960 it's taken for people to be successful, but it's also an important reason why having

01:06:01.040 a successful people in your life, because they're going to paint a realistic picture for you.

01:06:07.220 For sure. We get it. We get into trouble. I think you actually talked about it somewhere in the book

01:06:10.640 about, uh, expectations. If I remember correctly, maybe it was another book, but you know, we, we

01:06:15.840 have these false sense of expectations. And then when our reality doesn't meet those expectations,

01:06:21.040 we're let down. It's like, well, it wasn't, it wasn't the thing that went wrong is your

01:06:26.740 expectations were wrong. That was the problem. Like you, from the premise, you set it up wrong.

01:06:30.960 If you had clear expectations about how long you'd need to do it, how many presentations you need to

01:06:36.360 give, how many actual hours you'd need to research and study and present, then you wouldn't be let

01:06:41.820 down as much. In fact, it would just beat your expectations and you'd probably exceed them as

01:06:45.520 well. Exactly. I despise the sort of coaching question of, you know, what would you do if you

01:06:51.340 knew you couldn't fail? And I tell people like, what would you, what would you do if you knew it was

01:06:56.240 going to take you about seven years of just grinding your face on rock bottom and getting kicked in the

01:07:03.320 dirt and taking two steps forward and five steps back? And then what, then what would you do?

01:07:09.620 Cause most likely that's the reality of this thing that you want to, you want to create if it's big.

01:07:15.700 And if it's important, then you're going to go through some hell. So why not sit? That's the

01:07:20.920 thing I want to know from people, not what would you do if tomorrow morning you could wake up and

01:07:25.700 boom, you'd have it all. Right. So what are you willing to suffer for?

01:07:29.860 Again, that's not reality, right? It's not even dealing in reality. Like what if everything was

01:07:34.660 magical and you lived in fairytale land? I'm just going to manifest this weekend.

01:07:40.060 Yeah. It's like, yeah, man, manifest it. Yes.

01:07:44.580 Traver, I appreciate you, brother. It's been a good conversation. I want to ask you a couple of

01:07:47.520 questions as we wind things down. Obviously like, dude, I don't even know if I got into anything that

01:07:52.080 I wrote down on the notes because there's so much to go through. Just go buy the book guys. Cause it's a

01:07:57.680 good book and you'll get everything that we talked about here and a lot more. Uh, the first question,

01:08:02.740 what does it mean to be a man? I'm not plugging your book, but it is all about sovereignty to me.

01:08:11.120 It is about a guy who says I have limited to the best to best to my ability, the input,

01:08:19.040 the, my relationship to the input, to the outside world. So I am okay on my own. I am whole on my own.

01:08:25.460 I am healthy on my own. I am leading in every area of my life. To me, that is what a man does

01:08:32.840 and that leading or consciously not leading, right? I have a bookkeeper. Why? Because I hired her

01:08:40.400 because I am not gifted with numbers, but that's very different than just hoping that my numbers

01:08:47.080 add up every month. Right. So to me, a man is a sovereign human. That is someone who is to the best

01:08:53.700 of his ability, is competent in a number of fashions, is strong, is present, right? Is clear,

01:09:02.440 knows where he's going, why he's going there and is also of service. It's not just, he's not just an

01:09:10.920 island. He's there for his family. He's there for his community. He's there for his country. He's there

01:09:15.220 for the world. If those are, if those are possible, right? I have a guy that has an autistic son.

01:09:22.000 That's his, that's his world. He doesn't need to be on Instagram. He doesn't need to be on Oprah,

01:09:27.140 but he's leading in every capacity of his life. And every moment of his life is of service.

01:09:33.040 That's powerful. I'm glad you said that. Cause I, one thing a lot of guys will say is

01:09:37.540 some guys with, uh, either injuries or, or illness or disease, medical conditions they're

01:09:43.320 dealing with is they feel inferior as a man. And according to what you just said, it's if you're

01:09:49.180 leading your domains, you don't have to feel inferior, even if you can't, you know, lift 400

01:09:56.120 pounds or whatever. Right. Lead in your domains. That's where you need to be. Amen. And you're

01:10:01.580 fighting in those men, you fight hurt, you fight in those domains. I say the same thing to guys. You

01:10:06.360 don't have to lift the weights. I do. And there are guys that I'm not going to come within a country

01:10:10.420 mile of outlifting yet. What's the mat. What matters is do you get up and go to the gym?

01:10:16.760 And if you're physically unable to go to the gym, what are you doing to make yourself stronger in

01:10:21.500 your head, in your heart and your spirit? Right on brother. Well, how do we connect with

01:10:26.080 you and learn more? And obviously we can pick up a, want to pick up a copy of the book. Where do we get

01:10:29.800 it? Beautiful. So I'm, I spend most of my time on Instagram, even though we kind of bashed it. I still

01:10:34.780 love it. I'm at Traver Bohm, T-R-A-V-E-R-B-O-E-H-M. And my book is at www.manuncivilized.com

01:10:44.340 forward slash the book. Excellent. We'll sync it all up. So the guys know where to go. I was

01:10:49.720 really looking forward to this conversation. The conversation did not disappoint. Thank you,

01:10:53.500 sir. Um, you know how you talk with some people and you're like, man, I really connected with that

01:10:56.600 individual. I feel like that was the case. I'm looking forward to getting to know you better and, uh,

01:11:00.760 just maintaining and building this relationship. So thanks for taking some time. Cheers. Thanks

01:11:05.200 for having me. All right, brother. Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with Traver

01:11:10.240 Bohm. Uh, I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Uh, I really enjoyed the conversation. It was like

01:11:14.600 two friends talking. And I think that's the direction that I've tried to go with the podcast

01:11:19.040 is be a lot more conversational and let you guys join in the conversations that I've had with some

01:11:23.660 incredible men. Traver being one of those incredible men, uh, go pick up a copy of the book on

01:11:28.200 civil, excuse me, man, uncivilized. Uh, I think you're going to like the book in the format that

01:11:32.140 I had mentioned, uh, the way the book is written. You're going to enjoy it. Uh, what else connect

01:11:37.100 with him on social media, connect with me on social media and let us know what you thought

01:11:40.960 about the show, uh, what you enjoyed about the conversation and, uh, make sure you reach

01:11:45.660 out to both of us. He's very active. I'm very active. So you're probably going to reach both

01:11:49.040 of us. Uh, outside of that, again, leave a rating review. It goes a long way guys. It's only

01:11:53.800 going to take you two minutes. Just go do it. Let's, let's get like 10,000 reviews. I mean,

01:11:57.980 how cool would that be? And I know, I know for a fact that that would boost and promote

01:12:02.680 the visibility and let more men who trust me need to hear this message. There's so there's

01:12:07.380 millions, millions of men who need to hear this message and you can play your part by

01:12:11.540 leaving a rating and review. All right, guys, that's all I've got again on Friday. I'm going

01:12:16.520 to talk about, uh, masculinity and why I believe it's being undermined at every turn and talk about

01:12:23.160 some specific ways in which that is happening, because that's important to know. We need to know

01:12:27.040 what is happening in order to address it. So that's going to be on Friday. So you'll want

01:12:30.720 to subscribe, um, outside of that, just connect with us on social media. Let us know what you

01:12:34.720 think about the podcast and, uh, stay engaged. We need more men in this fight and I'm honored

01:12:39.560 that you are on the path. All right, guys, until tomorrow for our, ask me anything, go out there,

01:12:44.520 take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order

01:12:49.160 of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were

01:12:53.800 meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - December 10, 2019

Fight, F＊ck, Feed, Feel ｜ TRAVER BOEHM

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