Order of Man

00:00:00.000 It's likely that someone in your life has wronged you in some way. Now, whether or not you've learned

00:00:05.380 to forgive that individual is an entirely different question. I think we all know, though,

00:00:10.380 that learning to forgive others is a very liberating practice, but of course, it's easier said than

00:00:16.240 done. Today, I'm joined by Andrew O'Brien to talk about his quest for forgiveness. I don't want to

00:00:22.520 ruin the conversation for you, but his mother made national news when she killed Andrew's

00:00:27.780 stepfather, asked him to cover it up, and then ultimately attempted to pin it on his brother.

00:00:33.500 It's a crazy story. Today, we cover why forgiveness is crucial for men, how to take the first steps,

00:00:39.620 elements to include on the forgiveness journey, and finally finding a way to forgive.

00:00:45.140 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly charge

00:00:49.920 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not

00:00:55.780 easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, or strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:02.960 This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:01:07.700 you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan

00:01:12.240 Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast and the movement that is Order of Man. I've

00:01:17.020 got a fascinating discussion with you today with my friend Andrew O'Brien, and I'll get to that here

00:01:22.960 in a minute because you're not going to believe this story. It's absolutely incredible, and the

00:01:27.080 way that he's decided to pursue or attack or address maybe even some of his past relationships

00:01:35.360 is very, very interesting and I think very liberating and something that will certainly serve

00:01:40.460 you, at least I hope so, especially if you have somebody in your life who you need to forgive or

00:01:45.300 have a desire to forgive. Guys, if you're new to the conversation and what we're doing here with

00:01:49.840 Order of Man, again, this is a podcast, it's all designed to help give you the tools and

00:01:54.780 the conversations and the resources and the guidance, direction, all of it, everything

00:01:58.320 that you need to become a more capable man. And note that I didn't say better man. I used

00:02:04.080 to say that, but I thought a lot about what that means. What does it mean to be a better

00:02:08.340 man? What does it mean to be a good man? And I think a better term to use is more capable.

00:02:12.540 That is ultimately our goal. How do we make ourselves more capable as fathers raising children?

00:02:18.180 How do we make ourselves more capable as leaders in the home and leaders in the community? How do

00:02:24.100 we make ourselves more capable when it comes to running businesses and pursuing our careers and

00:02:29.440 engaging in hobbies and interests and activities that are meaningful to us? This is why I use that

00:02:35.520 term becoming more capable men. So again, I want to give you the tools and the conversations

00:02:40.160 that you need to do that. And we've had guys like Jocko Willink, Grant Cardone, Andy Frisilla,

00:02:46.120 David Goggins, Tim Kennedy, Dakota Meyer, Pete Roberts. The lineup of men that we've had on this

00:02:52.400 podcast is absolutely incredible and a testament to what we're doing here. Not only that these caliber

00:02:57.640 of men want to join in this battle to restore masculinity, but that you as men want to hear

00:03:03.980 this. And there's millions and millions of men who again, are trying to make themselves more capable

00:03:09.140 just like I'm trying to do as well. So we've got this interview show. We've got Wednesday's,

00:03:13.200 ask me anything. And then we've got Friday field notes, which is my thoughts from throughout the

00:03:17.320 week. So make sure you subscribe, leave a rating and review that goes a very long way in gaining

00:03:23.240 visibility and getting the word out of this restoration of masculinity, this path that we're

00:03:27.780 on again, subscribe rating and review, and then ultimately share it as well. Not a whole lot of

00:03:33.380 announcements. There is one that I wanted to make mention of, and I'm going to go through this again,

00:03:36.880 but we've got our main event, main event as in the state main. So main event coming up August

00:03:42.860 9th through the 11th, 2019. We've got 30 spots left. That's it. We put it up in our, in our

00:03:50.600 exclusive brotherhood, the iron council and immediately filled up 35, 40 spots. So we only

00:03:56.640 have 30 spots left. It's going to be a two day event here on my property in Maine. Again, that's

00:04:02.660 August 9th through the 11th, 2019. I'm going to give you some more details later in the show, but

00:04:07.360 for now, if you are interested, go to order of man.com slash main event, again, Maine as in the

00:04:13.640 state main. So order of man.com slash main event. And that's all I have by way of announcements.

00:04:17.980 Guys, let me introduce you finally to my guest today. His name is Andrew O'Brien. We've been friends

00:04:24.760 for a couple of years, but he recently shared with me some of his story, which is almost

00:04:30.980 unbelievable. It's, it's wild. Uh, and then ultimately his journey to forgive, um, that

00:04:36.820 he's decided to take. In fact, I think as of the release of this podcast, his official

00:04:42.300 journey begins tomorrow. And you'll hear more about that in the conversation. Uh, but as

00:04:46.900 he shared part of his story with me, I really couldn't help, but think how powerful this

00:04:51.260 would be for the men of the order. I know forgiveness is an issue that a lot of men in

00:04:55.340 the Facebook group and an iron council bring up. Uh, so I thought that this would be a good 0.94

00:04:59.500 one for you today. You guys, you don't need to take notes or anything on this conversation,

00:05:02.640 but please, please listen to Andrew's incredible story about his mother and ultimately his path

00:05:08.840 to forgiving her. I really hope that this conversation helps you in some way.

00:05:15.380 Andrew, what's up brother. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

00:05:17.940 Hey, thanks for having me on my man.

00:05:19.320 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I, uh, we've known each other for probably a couple of years

00:05:23.320 now. And, uh, I think you've done some of our courses and we just met through the,

00:05:27.200 through the interwebs, through social media and man, I'm glad we're connected and man,

00:05:31.940 you've been sharing some of your story over the past couple of days. Cause you've got

00:05:34.720 an activity and I don't even know what to call it. I was going to say an event. It's not an event.

00:05:38.500 What do you call it? Even the, the, the journey, the track you're about to take.

00:05:43.160 I'm calling it to my, my walk to freedom. So, uh, yeah, yeah, you've been, we're going to get

00:05:49.960 into that while you're doing that and everything else, but you've been sharing a little bit of that in

00:05:53.000 our, in our Facebook group. And, um, I'm just, I had no idea. I'm absolutely blown away with your

00:05:58.120 history and your story and your, your desire to forgive. Um, that's what I want to talk about

00:06:05.100 today. Cause I know there's a lot of guys, I was telling you this, uh, who asked me questions about

00:06:10.120 forgiveness and overcoming some, some past circumstances and learning to let go of

00:06:16.980 situations and why they should and why they shouldn't. And I think you've got a very powerful

00:06:21.180 and unique perspective into, uh, the idea of forgiveness. Yeah. I mean, it's taken a long

00:06:26.720 time to get to this idea, right? So it's definitely not something that happens overnight. I think a lot

00:06:31.480 of people make forgiveness sound a lot easier than what it truly is. Yeah. I mean, it's like anything,

00:06:36.640 it could be, it could be looked at as a buzzword, right? Authentic, genuine hustle, grind, forgive.

00:06:42.540 And then, you know, you're not in the situation. It's easy to say, Oh, you just got to forgive.

00:06:46.660 You got to let go. And yet you're not in that exact situation. You don't have

00:06:50.820 the emotional trauma that comes with being wronged in some way by people that, that are supposed to

00:06:59.060 have your back and supposed to care for you. In this case, your mother, you know? So it's easier 0.93

00:07:04.620 to, uh, easier said than done, right? Always definitely is. And I, that's the first thing I

00:07:09.720 always, I always say when I'm communicating, you know, my story and what I'm doing when people ask

00:07:13.700 for advice, I always say, I will never make it sound easy because it's probably one of the most

00:07:17.960 challenging things that you'll ever have to do in your life. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it makes

00:07:22.620 sense for us to go back and, and hear a little bit about your story. And then I think what we can

00:07:29.420 do from there is talk about your path to forgiveness. And of course you're, you're, you're the path that

00:07:34.240 you're walking in the track that you're going on. Um, but tell me a little bit about your, your story,

00:07:40.300 your situation with your mother, the circumstances that came up. I'm, I'm, I'm certain that there's going to

00:07:45.920 be people who are listening to this, who are somewhat familiar with it, but I want to hear

00:07:49.680 it from your perspective. Yeah. I mean, what I'll do is a, like a two minute overview. I've got this

00:07:56.060 down pretty well by now. So I'll do a two minute overview and we just dive in deep wherever you want.

00:08:00.080 Yeah, man, that sounds great. Perfect. So I was actually born and raised by a prostitute mother. 1.00

00:08:04.880 I was raised in the Dallas Fort Worth inner city area. Uh, you know, and when I say prostitute, 0.97

00:08:10.080 I don't say that to be mean or to be hateful. That was just a career choice of hers. She was a 0.96

00:08:13.960 prostitute and a stripper. And, uh, that wasn't the worst part of it. You know, that, that was when 0.99

00:08:19.400 we were a lot younger, we lived in motel rooms, trailer parks, apartments, houses all over the

00:08:24.320 place, never had stability. Uh, and she did end up getting into quite a few relationships,

00:08:29.480 but every relationship she got into, she just used the man until she was done with him. And then she 1.00

00:08:34.760 would cheat on him, find another man, and then leave him for the other man. And that happened

00:08:38.840 at least six times, uh, when I was a child, you know, she was, my dad was in the army when we

00:08:44.740 were younger. And, um, he, he found out that my brother was coming. Uh, my brother was inside of

00:08:51.660 my mom whenever he was 17 and she told him it was his. So he dropped out of high school and joined

00:08:56.720 the army to take care of him. Then he had me at 19 and my sister at 22. And, uh, she ended up being

00:09:03.460 that army wife and anyone that's in the army knows what I'm talking about. And it's the army wife that 1.00

00:09:07.740 everybody knows that everybody sleeps with. Um, and she was, she was that one. And so, uh, you know,

00:09:15.100 being raised in that environment was really rough. There was a lot of times where I just watched her

00:09:19.040 make these men fall in love with them until she was done with them and then just throw them away 0.98

00:09:23.800 like a piece of trash and move to the next one. And that caused a lot of, you know, anger and hatred 0.94

00:09:28.860 that I had towards women for the majority of my life because I never wanted to feel weak. Like I thought

00:09:34.400 those guys were. And, uh, and so to escape my childhood, I joined the army, you know, I didn't

00:09:39.900 really have much of a father figure growing up. He wasn't around that much. And so the army became

00:09:45.920 my new daddy and it really helped, you know, turn me into a better man. Uh, I've turned me into any

00:09:51.580 kind of man. I wasn't a man at all. I was a punk teenager, uh, joined the army, deployed to Iraq from

00:09:56.860 2008 to 2009. Uh, during that deployment, I served as a lead gunner. Then I came home. Uh, Iraq was the

00:10:04.020 happiest time of my life because it was the first time I ever felt like I wasn't a failure. Like I

00:10:07.780 had purpose, like I had meaning. And then, uh, a year after returning home from Iraq, I attempted

00:10:12.840 to take my own life, uh, took over 120 pills in less than two minutes. And that was not because of

00:10:18.700 war trauma. That was more from childhood memories, right? It was just a combination of everything in

00:10:24.120 my life that just came in flowing at one time. And that was in 2010. I was 22 years old.

00:10:29.720 And luckily I survived that woke up two days later in the ICU, uh, with the machines connected to me,

00:10:36.100 coal coming out of me and doctors telling me that they didn't know if I was going to live or not.

00:10:39.800 Uh, they were just waiting to see if my kidneys were going to fail. Luckily they didn't.

00:10:44.100 And, uh, I woke up with newfound appreciation for life, got out of the army at my normal contract

00:10:49.020 end date, you know, honorable discharge. Uh, and then, uh, less than a year after I got out,

00:10:55.280 I got out in February of 2011. And in October of 2011, my mom murdered her husband shot him point

00:11:01.580 blank in the head while he was sleeping with his own gun and tried to make it look like someone

00:11:06.360 broke into the house and killed him because she wanted the life insurance policy. Uh, at this time,

00:11:11.280 I didn't know that she had done it. She had said that someone broke into the house and hit her and

00:11:15.860 shot Greg. And so I came home to help her out. And, uh, you know, the media was following us

00:11:21.500 everywhere. This went all over the news, 48 hours, 2020, Nancy grace, the TV show snapped.

00:11:27.100 She just became this famous murderer. The media called the black widow of Texas. And I didn't

00:11:32.140 believe it at first until the cops cleared the scene. We go to her house and there's still the

00:11:37.060 remains of her husband on the carpet. And my brother and I are cleaning up the remains. Uh,

00:11:42.140 and then we, um, stepped outside to, you know, to vomit because the smell was so bad because the

00:11:48.700 remains had been in there for so long. And, uh, while we're outside, she had pulled me,

00:11:53.940 pulled us to the side and asked us to help frame Greg's ex ex-wife murder. I of course was in shock,

00:12:00.200 but I didn't say yes, but I didn't say no either. I kind of contemplated it. You know,

00:12:04.200 I've always craved the love and affection from my mother. And I thought maybe this is the way to earn

00:12:08.220 it. I ended up not doing it and moved away to Austin, Texas. And then a couple of years later,

00:12:13.760 I found out she's trying to convince people that it was my brother that murdered her husband.

00:12:18.200 And so, uh, I went, yep. I went to the cops and told them what they had asked, what she had asked

00:12:24.100 me to do. And then I ended up testifying against her in court in October of 2014, where she was

00:12:29.360 found guilty for murder and sentenced to 60 years in prison. Oh my gosh, man. That, I don't even know

00:12:35.420 where to begin. That, that is unreal. So what's your, what's your brother's take on this?

00:12:42.220 So my brother and I don't talk anymore. Uh, we've fallen apart. Part of my journey is to try and

00:12:47.460 reconnect and rekindle that relationship. But my brother was the only male figure I had in my

00:12:53.300 life, right? He was my only role model. He's two years older than I am. And, uh, and that's why I

00:12:58.920 ended up testifying against her was because I wasn't going to say anything. A lot of people say

00:13:02.900 you did the right thing. And to be honest, I didn't do it because it was the right thing.

00:13:06.300 I did it to protect my brother because I didn't want her pinning that on him.

00:13:10.700 Right. He didn't do it.

00:13:12.780 So why don't you, why don't you talk anymore? Is that, is there animosity between you guys or what?

00:13:17.160 No, there, it was business. I started a business and you know, you should never do business with

00:13:21.920 family and things just fell apart because of issues. He, he said certain things to my wife that

00:13:28.320 I wasn't, uh, acceptable for. I did not accept. And we got in a heated argument. It was the first time

00:13:34.720 I ever stood up for myself to him. He was used to me being his younger brother, you know,

00:13:38.980 not a man. And, uh, and so that's why things fell apart. So I'm part of my journey is rekindling

00:13:45.060 that relationship and trying to resolve the issues between us. Yeah. And, and part of it too,

00:13:50.300 just based on our brief conversations and what I've seen is your journey to forgive your,

00:13:55.360 your mother as well. It sounds like. Yeah. It's a huge part of my journey. My entire journey

00:14:00.180 is based on that because that is the one memory that's really caused the most damage in my life

00:14:05.120 that I've allowed to cause the most damage in my life.

00:14:07.400 What, what, what memory is that her, her asking you to, to frame his ex-wife or, or something else?

00:14:14.820 Like what, what one memory is it that you're referring to? It's actually all of them. So

00:14:18.960 there's not one specific one. The frame, the framing really isn't the biggest one. The biggest one was

00:14:24.020 my childhood, uh, and what I witnessed because that made that created so much animosity, uh, in me

00:14:30.280 towards women. Yeah. Yeah. I could see how it would because you're seeing it from the outside and how 1.00

00:14:36.700 women treat men. And of course that dictated a lot of the way it sounds like you grew up. Um, 0.99

00:14:42.500 you wanted to be a man. You probably wanted to prove yourself to, to a large degree. Um,

00:14:47.440 and I could definitely see how that would be paint, paint a negative light for, for women in your eyes, 1.00

00:14:52.240 for sure. Uh, the biggest thing that I always wanted is I never wanted to be in to end up being

00:14:57.460 like one of those guys that she was in a relationship with. I always thought they were so weak.

00:15:02.060 I watched her just, you know, use these men and get them to fall in love and then just use them 1.00

00:15:07.860 until she was done with them and throw them away. And I just always told myself I would never be that

00:15:12.260 guy. Yeah. Do you think these men were interested in something more or were they interested in that

00:15:17.660 type of relationship anyways? I mean, what's your take on it now? You know, looking back at it,

00:15:23.580 she was just really good at making them feel super special and super important. And then until they

00:15:29.520 went to work and then other guys would come to the house. Um, and so she just was really good

00:15:34.820 at making people fall in love with her. And she, she is a very attractive woman. My mother is an

00:15:39.380 attractive woman. Not now that she's in prison. Prison, uh, adds a little bit rougher look on you, 1.00

00:15:44.820 but, um, you know, when she wasn't in prison, she was an attractive woman. So she knew how to use that. 0.56

00:15:50.040 What was she after? I mean, it sounds like she probably had a childhood that I assume maybe you'd

00:15:56.020 know differently. That was, I guess, less than favorable. Yeah. My grandpa was, uh, was in the

00:16:01.540 mafia, uh, in New York for her childhood. And then they had just, I don't know the whole story.

00:16:07.800 My grandpa has passed away since then. Um, but they, one day in New York, they just woke up and

00:16:13.640 grandpa said that they're moving to Texas and they moved. So I don't know the circumstances that led

00:16:19.100 to that, you know, last minute move to Texas. Um, but she was raised in that kind of environment. So

00:16:24.800 I feel like that probably had an impact on, you know, who she became. Um, but that's, you know,

00:16:30.860 that's, that's part of my journey too, is realizing that she is human and there's, there's a reason she

00:16:35.920 is the way she is. Right. Yeah. Oh yeah. No doubt. I mean, that doesn't excuse behavior, especially as

00:16:42.140 you, as you mature and you get older and you have the ability to make your own decisions, but it's

00:16:46.160 certainly a factor that needs to be taken into consideration. Right. Right. What do you, what is

00:16:53.100 ultimately what, what are you hoping to get from this? Is it, is it for you? Is it for her? Is it

00:16:57.800 for both? Like what is the ultimate objective of what you're trying to do? To be honest, it's more

00:17:04.100 for me. So, um, one thing I've learned and they've done research on this psychology, psychological

00:17:09.740 research on it. And what they've realized is that people that have experienced traumatic events in

00:17:14.440 their life have this constant need to please people. Right. And it's not, they don't even like

00:17:19.680 people. They just have this constant need to please people to feel love and affection and

00:17:24.180 things that they hadn't felt in the past. And what I've realized is I've become such a people

00:17:29.220 pleaser that I forgot to think about myself. I never have taken the time to learn more about

00:17:34.860 myself. I don't even know what makes me happy. You know what I mean? Like I've based my, my

00:17:39.540 happiness off of what can I provide to my wife and what can I provide to my children? And I think

00:17:44.160 that's important, but I don't think that's, that's not my happiness. That's what makes them

00:17:48.740 happy. And it makes me feel good to be able to do that for them. But I don't know enough

00:17:52.940 about myself and I'm a very angry person. And that's something that I've wanted to change

00:17:58.280 for a long time is to get rid of that anger and learn to be happy. Cause you can always

00:18:03.000 tell the difference when you meet someone who was raised in a good upbringing and not

00:18:07.620 so many issues. I don't think anyone lives a perfect life. Uh, but you can always tell

00:18:11.920 the difference in personality and the way people carry themselves from those who grew up

00:18:16.120 with a better put together home than those that grew up without one. And I've always wanted to be

00:18:21.260 more, more like those men, uh, who just seem to be so happy all the time. And I know happiness all

00:18:27.900 the time is unreal, but I would like to be happier a lot more often. Yeah. What have you, what have you

00:18:34.300 tried in order to develop that in yourself outside of the journey that you're on and the path you're

00:18:38.880 walking now? You know, the all negative things. Uh, I tried, I've, I've slept with a lot of women 1.00

00:18:45.220 in my life and I don't say that to brag. I don't think that's something that it's not something I'm

00:18:49.620 proud of. Um, but I tried to find my happiness in other people, right? Majority of the time it was

00:18:55.120 women. Um, and that led into a lot more issues in my life as well. I've done counseling before. Uh,

00:19:02.380 I wasn't a big fan of it. I'm one of those guys that likes to figure things out on his own.

00:19:08.340 It's not that I'm against counselors. I would never tell someone not to see a counselor,

00:19:11.880 but I like to learn things about myself on my own and figure it out on my own. It's just the way that

00:19:17.920 I work. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can see that there's certainly value in both of them. Right. And so

00:19:22.680 you've got to find what, what works for you. What is, what's your, what does your family think about,

00:19:26.700 about this? Well, first of all, let me back up. What is it that you're going to do? Let's talk

00:19:30.940 about that specifically. Cause I think this is fascinating, um, on a lot of different fronts,

00:19:35.560 but, but tell us what you're going to do as far as this, this track and this journey that you're

00:19:40.500 going on both literally and figuratively and, and, and how you anticipate this helping your,

00:19:46.240 your wellbeing. Yeah. You know, a lot of people talk about forgiveness and they say,

00:19:50.940 you just got to forgive. Right. And I've even heard, uh, you know, when I was posting in order

00:19:54.980 of man group, I had someone reach out and said, you don't need to go on a walk. You just have to

00:19:58.740 decide one day that you're going to forgive and just let it go. And I, I can't see it as that simple.

00:20:03.960 I'm not saying that it doesn't work for some people, but that won't work for me. I can't just

00:20:07.980 sit down and decide, okay, I forgive. Um, there's gotta be a process to it. I gotta figure out,

00:20:13.880 I gotta process the memories. I need to take time to get away from the family, get away from the

00:20:18.880 computer, get away from work and really take time to reflect on my entire life, which can't be done in

00:20:24.100 an hour sitting on my couch. Uh, so what I'm doing on June 26th is I'm leaving from Austin, Texas,

00:20:32.000 and I'm walking to Gatesville, which is where my mother is in prison, which is about a hundred

00:20:37.040 miles away. And it'll take me about three days and I'm gonna walk all the way there to go forgive

00:20:41.980 her. And the reason I'm walking is I want to take the time to process everything. I want no

00:20:46.940 distractions. I want to, uh, it's just physically if I'm, you know, we all feel better when we're

00:20:52.660 outside, uh, versus being inside. And I just thought this is what I need to do to really take the time

00:20:58.080 to process everything. Uh, because I don't think you can truly forgive until you take the time to

00:21:02.680 process all the memories that you're trying to forgive that person for. Yeah. Yeah. I think,

00:21:07.060 I think that, that self-work is, is really important. Um, I'm trying to look at it from

00:21:11.100 an outside perspective and I think that you've probably got comments. Uh, you know, I'm trying

00:21:16.520 to be sensitive to this a little bit, but that you've got comments like, well, why are you doing

00:21:20.320 this publicly? Right? Why can't you just do this on your own? And why do you need to, to make this a

00:21:25.280 public event? Like, is this really the motives that you're after? I don't know. I'm assuming

00:21:29.080 you've probably heard some of that stuff, but what, what's your perspective on that and what

00:21:33.120 other people might be saying or be critical of on this, uh, this path of yours? Oh yeah.

00:21:38.180 This can be part of it all, all the way around. Right. I think we've all had that experience where

00:21:42.480 people are always wondering, it's not, it's not an attention craving thing. Um, more for me,

00:21:47.900 what I'm doing, the reason I'm doing it publicly and I'm inviting people to be part of this

00:21:52.200 journey, uh, digitally is because what I've realized is a lot of people are in a lot of

00:21:58.640 pain and they haven't even taken that first step of deciding to try to forgive someone

00:22:02.780 because they don't think it's realistic. Right. And now we can all listen to the Tony Robbins

00:22:07.040 and the, and the big motivational speakers. And there's nothing wrong with those guys.

00:22:10.520 I'm not throwing rocks at anyone. Um, we can all listen to them, but it sounds a lot more

00:22:15.420 easy. Uh, I don't think anyone's ever taken the time to allow people to watch. Right. So instead

00:22:20.760 of me just saying, Hey, you should forgive people is saying, Hey, watch me do it. And

00:22:25.380 if I can do it, there's no reason that you can't. And it's to motivate people and inspire

00:22:29.780 people. And I really hope to, you know, do this to where people make that decision on

00:22:35.680 their own. And a big reason for me, a part of my journey is not just forgiveness, but

00:22:39.680 it's finding happiness. And I've owned numerous businesses in the past and I still do. And they

00:22:45.360 do fine, but they don't make me happy. You know, I, part of my journey is not just

00:22:49.920 forgiveness is finding happiness. And what makes me happy is I've spent three years of

00:22:53.940 my life traveling the world, speaking on stages around military bases. Um, and I had to stop

00:22:59.740 because the government budget cuts, they couldn't pay me anymore, but I want to get back to that

00:23:03.400 world. That was the happiest I ever felt. And it wasn't because of the money I was making.

00:23:07.000 It was because of the impact I was making. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot to be said for

00:23:11.260 fulfillment and stepping into something that's meaningful for you. What, uh, what is,

00:23:16.060 what is forgiveness? What, what does this actually look like? Explain that to me from your perspective.

00:23:22.240 And cause I hear this, this story and I think, okay, well there, there's, there's maybe tears

00:23:27.060 or levels of forgiveness, right? Like I forgive that she's done this, but I'm not going to allow

00:23:31.280 this individual back into my life. Um, or I, I completely forgive and forget, right? There's

00:23:36.460 different levels in my mind, but I'm really curious what you, what you think, what your definition

00:23:44.040 is of, of, of forgiving this woman. Yeah. You know, forgiveness for me is, uh, is about

00:23:50.280 being able to not forget the past, but to let go of it. And what I mean by that is I honestly

00:23:56.060 do not want to maintain a relationship with my mother. Uh, the reason behind it is she's

00:24:00.920 in prison for the rest of her life. Uh, there's really no reason to, and I need to protect my

00:24:05.300 children. Uh, you know, the biggest thing was as being a father is I need to protect my children

00:24:09.560 from living, uh, or experiencing anything close to what I've ever experienced. And so, uh, forgiveness,

00:24:15.860 the level of forgiveness I'm going after is letting go. I'll, I'll never forget the past.

00:24:20.780 And I don't think there's ever, I don't think there's such a thing as forget. We don't ever

00:24:24.120 forget the most traumatic things in our life, but it's to finally let go and stop allowing her memory

00:24:29.760 and, and the ghost of my past to keep holding me back. And that's what it's been doing. So it was

00:24:35.160 really letting go of that. And it's three steps to it, right? The, the three steps to my journey

00:24:41.120 is confront, forgive, and transform, right? And confront is more than just confronting the memory

00:24:47.260 or confronting the person is confronting the reality of the whole perspective, right? The biggest

00:24:53.180 thing I'm talking about right now and everything that I'm sharing is I have to realize that she's not

00:24:58.660 a horrible person. I call it undemonizing. I have to undemonize my mom, right? Because in our

00:25:05.140 head, when we go through these things that we can't forget, it's like this movie trailer plays

00:25:09.340 in our head that only plays the highlights of the worst things that ever happened. And in order for

00:25:15.080 me to forgive, I have to not hate her, right? But if I'm going to not hate her, then I have to learn

00:25:20.540 to remember at least one memory that makes me happy that like puts that smile on my face. And that's

00:25:26.000 what I've done now is I've, the first part of forgiveness is to stop hating someone. And so I've

00:25:30.980 thought about, you know, there's this time in my childhood, we went fishing, we went camping a few

00:25:35.000 times and every time we go camping, we would go fishing and we catch the catfish and they'd make

00:25:39.560 those sounds. And so our entire family would make those sounds that want, want, want, want. And it

00:25:44.780 sounds cheesy, but that's the one positive memory I'm holding on to is going to help me in my

00:25:48.880 forgiveness. Yeah, I imagine. I don't know. Maybe those are those memories few and far between. Is

00:25:53.780 that is that a hard exercise for you? It really is. It's a challenge. And I don't think it's because

00:25:58.440 there wasn't enough good memories. It's just my brain has been clouded for so long with so much hate

00:26:05.000 that it takes time. Do you think that the hate and the anger that you felt and experienced is

00:26:11.580 appropriate in some ways or a defense mechanism that that ought to be taken into consideration?

00:26:17.780 I think it's a defense mechanism, right? So like when we're kids, if we go and touch an electric

00:26:22.660 outlet and it shocks us, we don't touch that electric outlet again because we know that that hurts. We stay

00:26:29.340 as far away from it as possible. And that's what the same response that we have when it comes to

00:26:34.280 someone hurting us, especially when it's someone close that we count on. We get that defensive

00:26:39.740 mechanism where we, you know, instead of allowing someone to hurt us like that again, we become

00:26:45.180 angry, angry or bitter or just numb, right? I've become numb at points in my life where I just feel

00:26:50.280 nothing. Yeah. Yeah. I can see how that would be the case. What is what are your what is your wife

00:26:55.160 and kids think about this? My wife is excited for me. You know, my wife has gone through a lot.

00:27:00.820 We've been together for six years. She was with me as I was going through the courts and

00:27:05.440 testifying against her. She was there in the courtroom with me when I testified against my

00:27:09.240 mother. And so she's witnessed all of this and she's taken the brunt force of my trauma. And what

00:27:16.120 I mean is I used to emotionally abuse my wife and that's not something I'm proud of, but it's something

00:27:21.680 I have to admit to. Right. I would she would say things that sounded similar to my mom and I would

00:27:27.800 just go black. And I would say some of the most mean and hateful things to her, uh, because it 1.00

00:27:34.200 felt as though I was talking to my mom. I never physically abused her, but I did emotionally abuse 0.65

00:27:38.400 her and she has witnessed, you know, me grow over the past six years. And this is like what I feel is

00:27:44.880 the final step to complete freedom. Why, uh, why did she decide to stick around and, and, and make 0.54

00:27:51.760 things last in when she was dealing with some of that emotional abuse? You know, that's a good

00:27:56.580 question because I wouldn't have, um, I don't know why she did. She, she just told me that she loved 0.96

00:28:02.140 me and she had, you know, hoped for me. And there were times where she told me it was because she felt

00:28:06.500 sorry for me. And I always hated that. You know, I, I always hate when people say that they're sorry

00:28:10.840 for me. I've never wanted sympathy for anything. Um, but I, you know, I, to be honest, I'm glad that

00:28:17.160 she stuck around. I'm glad that she stayed with me. Uh, obviously we, we've had quite a rocky

00:28:22.600 relationship and I don't know where things are going to end up one day, but I am grateful for

00:28:28.060 her sticking around it. It was her and my children that motivated me to want to be better. If I didn't

00:28:33.720 have them, I probably would have never gotten to the mental state. I am now where I've realized

00:28:38.080 how much of an ass I've become and how I need to fix that. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, there's definitely 0.99

00:28:46.140 something about a spouse and kids that will illuminate a lot of your deficiencies and help

00:28:50.360 you see the, the error of your ways, isn't there? Oh yeah. Especially when it comes to your kids,

00:28:54.460 you know, I, when I have a two daughters and I think about the way I treated my wife and I would

00:28:59.560 never allow any man to get away with treating my daughters that way. Hmm. Hmm. I want to go back to,

00:29:06.600 you were talking about the trial and you, you testifying against, against your mother, I guess.

00:29:11.840 Well, the first thing is you said you, you, you were doing that to protect ultimately your,

00:29:15.680 your brother, correct? Right. But even, even that, and knowing that you were making that decision for

00:29:22.220 the right reason, I can't imagine the wrestling that would have, that you would have had to gone

00:29:27.720 through in order to come to that conclusion. Talk to me about that a little bit. Oh man, it was insane.

00:29:33.600 So, you know, I walk into the courtroom, I have to stay outside of the courtroom because I can't hear

00:29:38.360 everybody else that's testifying, right? Because since I'm a witness, I can't hear anything. So I'm

00:29:43.420 sitting outside the courtroom and I'm sitting next to the cop. That was the first one on the scene,

00:29:48.280 uh, at the house. So it was crazy to meet him. Uh, you know, the first guy that was on the scene

00:29:54.380 and I'm just waiting out there and I got my knees bouncing, you know, 200 miles an hour,

00:29:59.760 uh, just full of nerves and pits in my stomach. You know, it was, it didn't even relate to getting on

00:30:06.520 that bus for basic training. You might like that feeling. You remember that feeling?

00:30:10.400 Oh yeah, of course. The anxiety and, and they're just like, what, what is about to happen?

00:30:15.560 Yeah. Um, it, it was worse than that. And so I get into the courtroom, I take my oath and this

00:30:22.160 courtroom is not just, you know, a jury and a couple of people like this, this became a famous case and

00:30:28.500 across the nation. Uh, so all the media was there, all like tons of reporters and they were all in the

00:30:34.580 courtroom and, uh, and then my, my mom was there. Right. And so she didn't even, I don't even think

00:30:40.380 she knew I was going to testify against her until this moment. I don't think so. Oh wow. And so I get

00:30:47.320 up on stand and they start asking me the questions and I tell them exactly what she had asked me to do.

00:30:52.540 And if you, you know, it was all on, on the news. And if you watch the videos, you see me,

00:30:56.860 you can see my, you know, the upper half of my body bouncing up and down because my knee is just

00:31:01.560 going a hundred miles an hour. Um, and they, you know, they asked me to point to Michelle Williams

00:31:07.160 and man, that was, that was hard to point at your own mom at a murder trial. And as you're

00:31:13.180 testifying against her and to look at her, I looked at her and she was just staring this hole through my 0.96

00:31:18.340 soul. Gents, let me hit the, uh, the pause button timeout real quick. Uh, I know I mentioned it earlier

00:31:24.240 in the podcast, but I'm finally able to give you all the details that you need, uh, to get here for an

00:31:29.500 order of man meetup event experience, whatever you want to call it on our new property in Maine.

00:31:35.440 Guys, I've been thinking about this for six months now, since I knew we were moving here and I'm

00:31:40.860 really, really excited to get you here. Uh, it's going to be held August 10th through the 11th,

00:31:45.500 2019. There is an exclusive iron council dinner on the ninth that if you're a member of the iron

00:31:50.060 council, you'll be eligible for again, that's August 10th through the 11th, 2019. And over the course

00:31:55.380 of two days, it's my goal to give you access to two things, the framework and the network,

00:32:01.260 the framework and the network that you need to thrive in your life. Uh, we're going to have

00:32:05.060 activities all designed to push and test you physically and mentally, uh, presentations in

00:32:09.780 each one of the four quadrants that we cover here in order of man. And of course the opportunities to

00:32:14.240 band with other like-minded men who are working towards achieving big things in their lives as well.

00:32:19.600 We only have 30 spots remaining. I did say that earlier, 30 spots. So if you're interested,

00:32:23.680 I imagine that we'll sell out this week, but you've got to claim one of those spots very,

00:32:27.600 very quickly go to order of man.com slash main event. Maine is in the state, Maine. So order

00:32:33.820 of man.com slash main event, 30 spots remaining. I hope to see you here August 10th and 11th,

00:32:39.680 2019 do that after the show as quickly as you possibly can, uh, to get your spot locked in.

00:32:46.080 But for now we'll get back to my conversation with Andrew. Have you talked to her since,

00:32:51.280 since that day? I did. I talked to her in 2015. The first, I would say the first step in my journey

00:32:57.660 was in 2015. I was going through a custody battle with my wife. We had separated. We were going to

00:33:03.020 split up completely and we went to court and, um, she, I didn't even know I was as bad as I was

00:33:09.860 until she played an audio recording in that courtroom. And as I listened to the things that I was saying to

00:33:16.260 her, I couldn't even raise my head. I just hung my head in shame. I didn't even know who that man

00:33:21.560 was, who that monster was on that audio recording. Your wife played that recording. Is that,

00:33:26.740 is that what you're saying? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. They played it at the court. Um, and then the judge,

00:33:31.500 you know, was going to take away all my rights to the kids and said that, you know, whatever she asked 1.00

00:33:36.560 for, I have to give. And, um, and so it just, everything was looking bad. So it was at that

00:33:42.460 moment that I was like, if I don't, if I don't confront my mom, I'm going to lose my family.

00:33:47.540 And so I went to confront her and I saw her in prison in 2015. I took my son to go see her

00:33:54.300 cause he had, she had never met my son and he was young enough to not remember, you know? So I did

00:33:58.860 make sure that he wasn't old enough to remember going to see her. And, uh, I got there and I, I just

00:34:04.980 couldn't do it. I couldn't say everything I wanted to say. I had never been able to stand up to my mom

00:34:09.740 before. I had never been, had the courage to say what I've really felt or to truly forgive her or

00:34:16.100 anything. So it really just became a friendly visit instead of me saying what needed to be said.

00:34:21.460 Well, and what was her, how, what was her demeanor and reaction in response to you being there with

00:34:26.380 your son? She was happy to meet my son. Um, the only thing that she said was that she had found God

00:34:32.700 now. Um, and, and the problem is I know a lot of people say that happens in prison, but the problem

00:34:37.760 is my mom. She's very manipulative. So you never know what's true and what isn't. Um, so it's just

00:34:44.120 crazy. We went, we didn't, we weren't raised in a religious upbringing obviously. Um, and so it,

00:34:51.460 she said that she had found God and then she told me her response was, you know, when you testified

00:34:56.240 against me, I could have, you know, had my lawyers attack and say all these negative things, but I told

00:35:01.340 them not to because you're my son. And that was her response. And that, that made me so angry,

00:35:06.020 but I didn't say anything. So how will this time be different? You know, I, I imagine that you've

00:35:12.380 walked through or you visualize stepping into that room with your mother. How, how is it going to be

00:35:18.340 different than the last time in 2015? You know, this time I've grown a lot more. I'm a lot older

00:35:25.600 now. I've experienced a lot more in my life. Every time there's been a lot that's happened up recently

00:35:30.620 in April, I lost my unborn son. Um, you know, he had passed away inside of my wife at 14 weeks along.

00:35:37.900 So it's been, it's been a crazy life where just so many things have gone wrong so often, uh, to the

00:35:44.540 point to where I finally realized I need to go in there, not angry, but ready to forgive. Last time I

00:35:51.320 went there, I was angry and I wanted to attack with it. And then it got to that point to where I could

00:35:56.880 have. And I didn't. And this time I'm going in with more of an open mindset of, I don't need to

00:36:01.920 go in there angry. I need to go in there willing to tell her, here's what you did. I forgive you and

00:36:07.920 not worry about what her response is, not worry about if she feels like she did something wrong

00:36:12.300 or not. I need to keep reminding myself, I'm not doing this for her. I'm doing this for me.

00:36:17.340 Do you, does she know that you're coming? Does she, she know about any of this or, or where,

00:36:21.620 where is she with regards to this, uh, this journey you're on?

00:36:24.380 Yeah. She has no idea. I did call the prison a couple of days ago as I'm preparing for the

00:36:29.300 journey to make sure that I'm still on the visitors list and I am. So that's, she doesn't

00:36:34.200 know that I'm coming. Yeah. I wonder, I mean, what's your thoughts with, with giving her heads

00:36:39.440 up versus just, just going in there, um, without her knowing, have you, have you, have you thought

00:36:44.860 about that? I'm sure you have. Yeah. You know, I don't want to give her a heads up because

00:36:49.180 that gives her time to create more lies and, and prepare for like how she's going to respond. And 1.00

00:36:54.900 I don't want to give her that the more time she has, she's been a habitual liar her whole life. 0.90

00:36:59.960 And that's not me being hateful. That's just who she was. Like she didn't go into prison at first 0.94

00:37:05.280 because she tricked the courts into believing that she was pregnant with twins and by getting an 0.99

00:37:10.420 ultrasound picture off of Google and the courts fell for it. Oh my God. And so this woman has 0.99

00:37:16.840 become a professional liar and manipulator. And so I don't want to give her the opportunity to, 0.99

00:37:23.120 to prepare, to lie to me or try to manipulate me. Uh, you know, the more time she has, the better 0.78

00:37:28.340 she is. Yeah. Yeah. Of course that, that makes sense. What do you look at as far as your life with,

00:37:35.000 with your situation with your mother and, and some of the other things that you've gone through in your

00:37:38.720 life? How do you view those experiences now in the grand scheme of your life? You know, there's a lot

00:37:44.760 of times where people say they're sorry. And I always say that I'm not, uh, everything that's

00:37:49.080 happened in my life has created some flaws inside of me that, but those are flaws that can be fixed.

00:37:55.000 But it's also created a drive and a hunger inside of me that none of my friends that I grew up with

00:38:00.600 have, right? Like all of, I have friends that are janitors at high schools and that's, that's just,

00:38:05.840 they're okay with that. And I'm not hating on them. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with being a

00:38:09.160 janitor. It's just, I've always had a higher drive and, and bigger ambitions to do bigger things.

00:38:15.840 And so if it wasn't for the experiences that I had gone through, I wouldn't have had that drive

00:38:21.240 and that motivation. Now at the same time I've learned, I've made really good money in my life,

00:38:25.900 but every time I made that money, I sold my soul and it was doing things that I don't love. I still

00:38:30.600 own a business right now that I don't love. Um, which is why, you know, I'm doing this publicly to get

00:38:35.640 into a more of a personal development space where I can do something I actually enjoy doing,

00:38:40.380 but I am very grateful for everything I've gone through. I would say I'm grateful for my trauma

00:38:44.420 and I'm grateful for everybody else's because who would Tony Robbins be if he didn't have the mom

00:38:49.300 that he had, right? Who would, um, all of these people, if you look at some of the most successful

00:38:53.920 people, uh, in the world, some of the most driven, some of the people that have the biggest impact

00:38:58.220 are the ones that come from the roughest lives. Yeah. I mean, no doubt you have to have adversity. If,

00:39:03.040 if you hope to, uh, amount to anything, anything great, but I think there's a lot of people out

00:39:07.860 there who, uh, you know, look at, look at past circumstances and situations more as a, as a

00:39:14.460 victim, uh, and can't seem to overcome that mindset. And I think it would be easy to say that a lot of

00:39:21.100 the way that you grew up in a way you were a victim that happened to you. And when you're growing up,

00:39:26.740 there's not a whole lot you can do about it, right? You can now cause you're free to make those

00:39:31.480 choices, but as a kid, I mean, how much, how much freedom do you have? I guess I'm asking what

00:39:36.860 separates you, somebody who takes these tragic circumstances and decides not to be a victim

00:39:42.600 and somebody who would take a similar circumstance and use it as an opportunity to, to self-destruct

00:39:48.920 and implode if you will. Yeah. You know, I think there's a difference between I was a victim and I

00:39:53.700 am a victim, right? Obviously I was a victim as a child because there's, I had no control over my

00:39:58.460 circumstances. Um, so yes, I was a victim as a child, but now I'm a grown man and I can't keep

00:40:04.820 holding onto that for the rest of my life, you know? And to be honest, I've never been the victim

00:40:09.500 type that wants people to feel sorry for me. I've never asked for sympathy for my experiences. So I

00:40:14.980 always said, I've, I've never played the victim card because I've never asked someone to feel sorry.

00:40:19.160 However, uh, through my self-reflection every day, I'm growing a little more in this journey because

00:40:24.360 this journey has already started before my walk. Every day I'm taking time to self-reflect.

00:40:28.940 I'm changing something about my life daily. And so yesterday I was thinking about, I was like,

00:40:34.020 you know what? I always tell people I didn't play victim, but I did. But instead of playing victim

00:40:38.340 by saying, Oh, feel bad for me. My mommy didn't love me. Instead, I became an angry ass. Like I just

00:40:45.740 became a mean person, uh, to women to, you know, I just became so bitter. So I still was a victim

00:40:52.880 just in a different sense. Even though I wasn't making people feel sorry for me, I was still

00:40:57.280 allowing my past circumstances to control who I was and who I was becoming and how I treated people.

00:41:03.540 So the reality is I was still a victim. And, and part of this journey is to get rid of that mindset

00:41:09.300 and, and stop blaming the world and stop caring so much about what the world thinks about me and just,

00:41:15.140 just be myself. Yeah, that's interesting. I never really considered that because what we hear about

00:41:19.620 when we talk about victims or hear about victims is those who would use that, that experience,

00:41:26.080 uh, whether it's justified or not, or, or credible, I should say, or not to get things right. To get

00:41:33.500 handouts or get attention or, or whatever it is they're after. But it sounds like in your case,

00:41:38.200 you were still playing a victim card, but you were doing it to excuse, excuse you being an asshole, 0.99

00:41:45.200 frankly, or you, you living the way that you were living, which you now realize that wasn't in your 0.99

00:41:50.240 best interest or anybody else's. Yeah, that's exactly it. Right. So, and I wrote a post about

00:41:55.440 that yesterday. I was just talking about, we all talk about the victim mindset as far as, Oh, feel

00:41:59.800 bad for me. Uh, but yeah, I think there's numerous levels and tears to, to the victim mindset. Mine was

00:42:05.960 more of the extreme asshole tear. Hmm. Yeah. Well, so you talk about growth in your life and you're 1.00

00:42:11.840 trying to get better every day. What specifically does that look like? How have you improved, uh,

00:42:15.880 just through the process of self-discovery and reflection and of course, forgiveness as well?

00:42:20.660 Yeah. You know, forgiveness is step one, but this is about transforming my entire life,

00:42:25.080 right? It's about learning about myself. What makes me happy? What do I want? Cause I've always

00:42:29.600 thought about, you know, I've always given my family everything that they want. I've always provided

00:42:33.620 for them, but I've never taken the time to even learn about myself. I know nothing about myself.

00:42:38.240 Uh, I know everything about my kids. I know everything about my wife, but I know nothing

00:42:41.940 about myself. So every day I'm, I'm taking that next step, right? A couple of things I've done so

00:42:47.360 far is like I said, uh, I reverse engineered how I'm going to go through this journey, right? I created

00:42:52.780 my little roadmap, right? And it's not a very defined one because every day I'm learning something new,

00:42:58.080 but it's those three steps, right? I got to confront, forgive and transform and confront means

00:43:02.520 confront the memories, confront the people that created those memories and confront the reality that

00:43:07.340 those aren't horrible people. And there's a reason that they did what they did. Whether I agree with

00:43:12.200 the reason or not is I have to think of a more open mindset, uh, you know, and then forgive.

00:43:17.960 Forgiveness is still a journey. I'm going to have to figure out how that works and then transform is

00:43:22.460 doing, you know, creating a better life. That's a, you know, reverse engineering is one thing I've done

00:43:26.660 mentally to figure out what I'm going to do. A couple of things I've, I've changed things physically.

00:43:30.840 I stopped eating sugar. Uh, I started exercising and it's, I'm not trying to become a, you know,

00:43:36.560 physical fitness trainer, but I believe that our mental health is fully dependent on our physical

00:43:42.060 health. You know, I'd never felt so great in my life like I did in the army when I had to wake up

00:43:47.220 every morning at 5am and go for a run. And, and, you know, there were times where I had to throw up

00:43:52.240 during the run, but for some reason I felt great the rest of the day. And so, but as I got in the

00:43:56.600 civilian world, I got too busy. I got lazy. I stopped working out. So if I, if I want to find

00:44:01.640 happiness, I got to do physical fitness as well as mental fitness. Yeah. It's critical. I mean,

00:44:07.520 a lot of guys ask me how they can begin to improve their lives. And one of my suggestions is always

00:44:11.960 just go to the gym, just lift up, lift heavy things and work out and exercise and move your body more

00:44:17.620 than you are. And, and that small act will transform and spill over into other areas of your life.

00:44:23.500 Yeah. I always say you can't be, this whole journey is, is you have to be tough, right? I mean,

00:44:28.760 walking a hundred miles is, is a journey in itself, but I have to be physically tough in order to be

00:44:34.200 mentally tough. So I have to every day just do that one more thing. And sugar has been a huge addiction

00:44:40.160 of mine. So I haven't had sugar in six days now, which is insane. It's like my crack. So I've done

00:44:47.180 really well. Well, I think there's something to be said for sacrifice and discipline. And again,

00:44:52.760 whether it's sugar or something else, I mean, just the fact that you're exercising that is

00:44:57.140 going to help you improve. And of course, make this, uh, I don't want to say easier,

00:45:01.980 but more manageable physically, mentally, emotionally. I imagine just having that level

00:45:06.260 of discipline. Yeah. And on top of that, it's, it's, I'm not taking, uh, anything that messes

00:45:11.900 with my mentality. So no drinking, uh, not even one beer. Like I, I want to do this fully sober

00:45:17.800 because for me, the way I compare it is like, if I go to a bar and get a girl to come home

00:45:23.020 with me, that's drunk. I don't count that, right? She's drunk. If I go to a bar and get 1.00

00:45:27.220 a girl to come home with me as sober, that, that counts because she's in the right mindset. 0.51

00:45:31.360 And so when I think about this, uh, instances, I have to do this completely and fully sober,

00:45:37.340 no help of any outside substances in order for me to truly feel proud of myself and accomplish

00:45:43.120 this the right way. Yeah. I can appreciate that. I can see why that would be valuable. Um,

00:45:47.260 I want to go back to this forgiveness because I have a hard time wrapping my head around

00:45:52.460 this a lot of times, which is probably why I wanted to have the conversation with you.

00:45:55.580 Because as I look back on my life, I can't really think of any one or any specific situation

00:46:02.660 where I feel like they've, they've wronged me, you know, outside of, you know, maybe somebody

00:46:08.100 stole 20 bucks from me or something, or I don't know what, like somebody ran into the back of my car

00:46:13.120 and didn't leave a note or whatever, you know, like little, little things that just kind of happen

00:46:17.520 in life. So I've never really been in the position where I feel like I have to forgive somebody. So

00:46:23.760 I'm always walking this line or thinking about, you know, how, how do you, how do you find balance

00:46:29.240 between forgiving somebody, um, forgiving potentially their behavior or even, you know,

00:46:36.500 excusing or justifying, or, or I should say rationalizing that behavior, which kind of

00:46:41.540 sounds like to me, you're taking that to an unhealthy level. If you're, if you're justifying

00:46:47.420 or rationalizing behavior and other individuals that, that, you know, is, is not good. Right.

00:46:52.340 What, what, how do you find that line? I, or is there a line? What, what's your take on it?

00:46:56.620 I don't know. I don't know where that line stands. Right. And now when you're talking about,

00:47:01.000 you're not sure because you don't feel like anyone's ever wronged you. I think forgiveness

00:47:04.720 forgiveness can either have to do with outside sources or within ourself. Right. So I know like

00:47:09.400 there were a, there was a time where you and your wife were going to split up and that's part of

00:47:13.040 your story. Yeah. Right. So there's always, there's parts, there's days where we have to forgive

00:47:18.080 ourselves because we got too short with our kids. Right. We shouldn't have yelled at them that time

00:47:22.360 that there's a bit, I could have handled that situation as a father better. Um, you know,

00:47:26.940 I think forgiveness can be either out outside sources or inside sources. It can be things that we've

00:47:33.020 done wrong or things that other have, or it can be circumstances that were completely out of our

00:47:37.140 control and not anyone else's fault or tornado, a hurricane, a death in the family. Right. So it's

00:47:43.440 like, you have to forgive the circumstance and the memories and not just the people or not just

00:47:49.360 yourself. And I think when it comes to, we have to learn that we, I don't want to ever justify

00:47:54.640 what, what my mom did to me. But I, there were times where I tried to justify the way I treated my

00:47:59.740 wife. Right. Why, why I tried to make it right. It's because she said this, she shouldn't have

00:48:03.820 said that she knew it was going to make me react that way. And, um, I think it's a lot easier to

00:48:08.840 find excuses. Right. And it's a lot easier to stay angry. It's a lot easier to, to stay angry at

00:48:15.280 someone or something or a memory or whatever happened than it is to face the reality, uh, from

00:48:21.620 the outside perspective, from a third person perspective of, you know, looking at it from the

00:48:26.900 whole side versus our own side. I don't know, man. Is it easier to stay angry? Like, I don't

00:48:32.640 know if I can agree with that. I I've, I've been angry and I've had negative situations in my life

00:48:37.820 and man, I know deep down, I just don't want to feel like this. At times I feel like I would do

00:48:42.740 anything to get over this feeling of despair or anger or bitterness and contention and animosity.

00:48:48.680 Do you really think it's easier to stay in that state than to, to face some of this stuff?

00:48:53.200 I think it was easier for me because that's just what I've known my entire life. Right. So all I've

00:48:59.020 known is anger and hate. So it's like, for me, that just became regular, right? That just became what

00:49:05.180 every day is supposed to be. And so it was easier. That's why I think a lot of people stay within their

00:49:10.040 own self pity and depression and all of that is because you become comfortable with misery where it

00:49:16.700 just becomes regular. Right. So being uncomfortable would be like, what if I wasn't miserable? Well,

00:49:21.960 what would I do? Right. So a big reason that I'm not going into these other groups, right? I say in

00:49:27.620 order of man, because I love your content, but there's other groups where they, they're a lot

00:49:31.340 more hardcore. Um, like, you know, they, they say a lot, they get a lot more angry in their message.

00:49:37.980 And the reason I don't connect well with that is because I'm already angry. I'm trying to take

00:49:42.000 more of a peaceful route than, than putting more. I don't need more testosterone. I got plenty of that

00:49:47.580 flowing through my veins. Um, I'm trying to chill out, you know, I'm trying to take more of the

00:49:53.020 peaceful route versus, uh, there's a lot of people that make you want to like, you got to fight to

00:49:57.320 live. You got to fight to survive. You got to fight to do this. And it's like, I've been fighting for

00:50:00.840 so long. I'm tired. Yeah. Right. I I'm on round 11 of that boxing ring where it's like, I'm done

00:50:06.180 fighting. Right. I want to just chill. Well, and I think, I think too, is, is this is all exasperated by

00:50:12.560 this thing in social media where it's like cool to be upset or it's cool to be a hard ass or cool 0.81

00:50:19.320 to be outraged. And that's how you get, or get attention is, is by being a hard A and, you know, 0.67

00:50:25.960 coming up these, with these little, these little quips that, you know, sound really tough, but when

00:50:30.500 bush comes to shove, it doesn't really work in reality. Like it's a, it's just a really weird,

00:50:35.940 really weird thing to engage in where it's cool to be upset or mean or tough, you know?

00:50:40.320 Yeah. I, I, I always tell people I already did the army, not trying to relive that again. I've

00:50:46.340 already had people yelling at me and motivating me and it was great while I was younger, but now

00:50:51.900 that I'm older, I'm not trying to increase my testosterone. I'm just trying to, trying to find,

00:50:56.840 I'm trying to find peace, right? I'm not a hippie, but I'm not, you know, a super angry, motivated,

00:51:01.580 you know, yeller either. I'm just trying to find that happy medium.

00:51:05.320 Yeah. I think a lot of the times when you see this, this level of anger or contention or, or just,

00:51:10.000 whatever, whatever it is, it's not real, right? It's just from guys who are trying to prove

00:51:16.140 something. Maybe they're trying to prove it to other people. Maybe, maybe they're immature and

00:51:19.660 they've, they've still got some room to, to improve or, or prove to themselves some, something

00:51:25.760 that they're lacking. And so this is how it's manifesting itself is kind of my take on it.

00:51:30.080 Like, I don't, I don't need to be angry. I have, I have no desire to be that way. I don't want to be

00:51:34.640 that way. I want to be happy and positive and fulfilled. I want other people around me to be that way.

00:51:38.920 And so it's like, I'm, I'm not going to, I'm not going to contribute to that problem.

00:51:43.460 Yeah, I'm good. Let me, let me be happy. And that's what I want for other people too. Right.

00:51:48.240 And, and it's, I've watched a lot of people do it and the way they do it, they get the right

00:51:52.020 audience. They've seemed to help a lot of people. That's just not, it's not real worse for me.

00:51:56.640 Right. Right. Yeah. I get that, man. It sounds like you're on a, on a crazy journey. And I'm so

00:52:02.360 glad that we're able to have this conversation. Cause as I started, as we started this discussion,

00:52:06.820 you know, I know, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of guys who might have similar

00:52:13.020 circumstances, might have completely different circumstances, maybe some, you know, just

00:52:18.500 completely different. Right. And, and, and I think so many men need, need to hear this message. What

00:52:22.880 would you say to those guys who feel like that they know they need to forgive somebody? They know

00:52:29.280 they need to let go of, of how this is affecting and controlling their life, but they've had a hard

00:52:34.620 time doing it. What would you say to that individual? I would say until you take the time

00:52:40.100 to make a conscious effort towards doing that, it's never going to change. If you just sit back

00:52:45.200 and think, okay, one day I'll forgive them. That one day is never going to come and it's going to

00:52:50.440 continue to hold you back. And there may be times that it's holding you back that you don't even

00:52:54.040 realize it. Um, you know, I didn't realize at the time that I was being the way I was to my wife,

00:52:59.380 that that was my mommy issues. I just thought she deserved to be talked to that way. Um,

00:53:04.160 and, and then, you know, whenever it came to business, I was succeeding in business, but yet

00:53:08.340 I was still miserable. I couldn't figure out why am I making good money yet still feel so empty.

00:53:12.920 And it was because I had not forgiven. Right. And it's because I haven't learned to let go of the

00:53:18.260 past and create a better future for myself. So I would say if you haven't taken the time to

00:53:23.200 consciously, you know, put an effort in to forgive, to consciously think about, you know, what,

00:53:29.480 who it is that you have to forgive, why you should forgive them and go through that whole process.

00:53:33.480 You're always going to feel stuck. You're never going to feel, there's always going to be some

00:53:37.620 kind of weight that is holding you down. What do you envision for yourself once this,

00:53:43.320 this part of your journey? And I realized it's just part of it that this isn't like,

00:53:47.880 you're going to go in there and say what you need to say. And then everything's going to be

00:53:51.160 wonderful, right? Like I can't imagine that this is how it's going to work. And I hope you don't

00:53:55.580 feel that way either. I don't think you do. No, not at all. Um, but what do you envision

00:54:01.840 coming from ultimately this, this chapter of your journey?

00:54:07.300 You know, what I envision is being able to finally learn who I am because the big part of my forgiveness,

00:54:14.740 a big reason behind it is one, so that I'm a happier person with my wife and my children and

00:54:18.960 with myself, more importantly, with myself. Uh, if I don't take care of my own happiness,

00:54:23.460 I can't expect anyone else to. And then the second part is, I think I can finally be able to move to

00:54:29.660 that next phase in my life where I can stop chasing money and stop chasing materialistic

00:54:35.500 things and start chasing what really makes me happy and start going after a career path that I

00:54:40.640 really will enjoy. Uh, I really think that waking up where I'm not miserable is a reality because

00:54:47.880 every day I wake up and I'm, I'm mad. I yell at my kids almost every morning and not like, and I don't

00:54:53.320 say really hateful things, but I get short with my kids. I think I'll be a better father. Uh,

00:54:57.700 when I let go of this anger, I think I'll be a better husband. I think I'll be a better me.

00:55:02.800 So I'm trying to think about how I want to word this question. Cause it could come across as,

00:55:07.280 as, as wrong and I don't want it to, but I'll just throw it out there. What makes you think

00:55:12.420 that? Like, where does that hope come from? Cause it sounds like you may not have been exposed

00:55:17.000 to that sort of situation. And so where does the hope come from that, that you, that you can be a

00:55:24.500 better father, a more capable husband, a more loving, empathetic man in general.

00:55:29.460 You know, it's where it comes from is that right now what I'm doing isn't working. So I have to put

00:55:35.860 my hope into something else, right? So I can either sit back in and this is what I was doing for the

00:55:40.940 past six years is I would say, that's just not me, right? I'm just not a romantic guy. I'm not going

00:55:45.740 to give you massages. I'm not going to run you a bath. I'm not, I I'm just not that sweet guy. I'm not,

00:55:51.240 I'm not affectionate. That's just not who I am. And I use that excuse for so long. And I realized

00:55:56.840 that's what it was. It's an excuse. It's me saying, that's just not who I am. It's not who I

00:56:01.740 am, but it's who I couldn't become. It's who I can learn. One thing I've learned over the past 31

00:56:06.140 years of my life is that I am constantly changing. I'm constantly growing something,

00:56:11.720 something about me always changes. So nothing is going to change if I don't incite this change.

00:56:17.060 So I guess the hope is there because I realized not doing anything isn't going to result in any

00:56:21.980 different outcome. So at least if I put an effort in, there's a possibility of something better

00:56:26.180 coming out of that. Yeah. I mean, well, and you can draw upon past experiences in life as well,

00:56:31.780 maybe not in this context, but you know that, for example, when you're running a business,

00:56:36.000 if you introduce a new, a new product or a new service, or you start marketing in a different

00:56:43.020 way that it inevitably produces a different result. I mean, you know that you've seen that.

00:56:48.400 And then this just translates over into a different aspect of your life.

00:56:52.660 Oh yeah. And I mean, for me, I just, I kept using that excuse, but you're right. It's,

00:56:58.720 I have to, I am in control of who I am. I am in control of my own emotions and I am in control of

00:57:05.500 whether I react or I respond to situations. I've spent the majority of my life reacting instead of

00:57:11.380 responding. And I, I have to learn to respond and, you know, react is just taking action or,

00:57:17.380 or it's an emotional response versus responding is more of a level headed. Let's, let's find a

00:57:23.780 solution to this. Hmm. It's powerful stuff, man. I'm excited for what you're doing. And, and,

00:57:29.120 and I wanted to have you on because this is a message that more, more men need to hear. And frankly,

00:57:34.280 it's not really one that we've talked about, although a lot of men, if not most men deal with some sort of

00:57:38.900 issues from their past or trauma and, and not learning to let that stuff go. So I'm anxious

00:57:44.620 to connect the guys with you. And I'm going to give you an opportunity to do that here in a second.

00:57:48.480 But before I do, I want to ask you the question that I, that I prepped you for a little bit.

00:57:52.980 And that question is, what does it mean to be a man?

00:57:56.060 So what it means to be a man in my eyes is being a man means stepping outside of your own emotions

00:58:03.080 and looking at a situation in its entirety, whether it's your children, your wife, uh, the other

00:58:09.760 outside sources as being able to not be so involved in your emotions and create a better end result for

00:58:16.980 yourself, for your family, for your loved ones. Being a man is being able to provide not just

00:58:23.760 financially, but emotionally to all, all aspects, right. To everybody close to you, whether that be

00:58:29.680 your parents, your siblings, your children, your spouse, your significant other, whoever it may be,

00:58:35.140 it's being a provider in multiple ways. I've only been a provider financially. Uh, and I'm excited to

00:58:41.080 become the provider emotionally. Then I feel like I've truly become a man. I love it, man. That definitely

00:58:47.000 ties into what we talk about for sure. And that's a, that's a powerful testament. Well, Andrew, how do we

00:58:51.640 connect with you and, uh, learn more about what you're doing and get the guys connected with you as well?

00:58:55.380 Yeah. If y'all want to come follow my journey and be part of this, as I'm going through this, I'm going to

00:59:01.720 be sharing multiple times every day. As I'm walking on this a hundred miles, I'll be sharing what I'm

00:59:06.840 thinking, how I'm experiencing it. I'm going to be fully transparent and everything. Uh, you can find me

00:59:12.580 at this crazy journey.com. Right on. We'll sync it up. So the guys know where to go, but you know, I just

00:59:18.040 want to tell you, I appreciate what you're doing. I appreciate the track you're on. I, I, as you shared the

00:59:21.840 story, I couldn't think about how, how, how horrific and challenging it must've been. I can't even

00:59:28.240 imagine to the degree, obviously that, that you've gone through. It's, it's unreal to me, but I commend

00:59:33.600 you for being assertive for responding to it. Like you had said earlier and just taking the action to

00:59:40.160 try to improve yourself and ultimately improve the lives of other people you're trying to serve. So

00:59:44.140 I commend you and honor you for that, man. Well done. Hey, and thank you so much for helping me

00:59:48.420 spread the message. I appreciate that. You bet, brother.

00:59:51.840 Gentlemen, there you go. I, I I'm blown away. I mean, I am absolutely blown away. This story is,

00:59:58.840 is wild. It's crazy. It's almost unbelievable. But the way that Andrew has decided to approach

01:00:04.820 this story and what he's decided to do in his life in spite of, and because of the story is

01:00:11.520 incredible the way that he's harnessed that. And he's trying to do good. And he's coming to terms

01:00:16.780 with this. And I know a lot of us are dealing with maybe not similar circumstances, but definitely

01:00:22.580 people who have wronged us in our lives. And I thought that this would be a powerful one for you.

01:00:26.660 If you're on your own path or feel like you have a desire to take a path towards forgiveness.

01:00:30.840 So make sure you connect with Andrew. He mentioned where you can connect with him and follow along with

01:00:35.580 his journey and see what he's up to and how that event is going. I've been inspired by him and what

01:00:40.300 he's doing. I know you will as well. So connect with him, connect with me on Instagram. Let me know

01:00:45.200 what you thought about this conversation specifically. Let me know what you think about

01:00:48.660 the podcast and the movement in general. I love hearing from you guys. And if you have any feedback

01:00:53.740 or ideas, I'm open and receptive to that stuff, because my goal is to make this better, to make

01:00:58.560 this the type of resource, the one-stop shop for men who are working to become more capable in every

01:01:04.340 capacity and every facet of their lives. So connect with me on Instagram at Ryan Mickler. My last name

01:01:11.220 is spelled M-I-C-H-L-E-R. I'm also on Twitter. We're going to be doing a lot more over on YouTube

01:01:16.140 and of course, Facebook as well. But the best place to connect with me is on Instagram at Ryan

01:01:21.480 Mickler. All right, guys, that's all I've got for you today. Again, as I always do and sign off by

01:01:26.720 thanking you for being in the battle to restore and reclaim masculinity. We need it now more than ever.

01:01:32.440 And to see you banding with me and this movement and what we're doing here is, it's inspiring.

01:01:39.220 It's exciting. And I think we're on the path and I'm glad to be on that path with you. All right,

01:01:43.440 guys, until tomorrow for Ask Me Anything, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant

01:01:48.900 to be. Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your life

01:01:53.780 and be more of the man you were meant to be, we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

01:02:02.440 Thank you.

01:02:05.440 Thank you.

Finding a Way to Forgive ｜ ANDREW O'BRIEN

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