Order of Man - GARY JOHN BISHOP ｜ Become the Father Your Kids Deserve

00:00:00.000 If you're a father or plan to be one, I know how it is to feel completely inadequate to be the type

00:00:06.260 of dad your children need you to be. Self-doubt, challenging life circumstances, and past emotional

00:00:12.420 trauma all combined to create this perfect storm of insecurity in raising your sons and daughters

00:00:18.100 right. My guest today is New York Times bestselling author Gary John Bishop, and today he joins me to

00:00:23.620 talk about his latest book, Grow Up, Becoming the Parent Your Kids Deserve. We cover such a wide

00:00:28.980 array of topics in this conversation, including why you should question your past and how to heal

00:00:34.220 from it, the value of what he calls empathetic intelligence and how to use it effectively with

00:00:38.980 your kids, how responsibility oftentimes supersedes truthfulness, overcoming shame and guilt from

00:00:45.660 parenting mistakes, and ultimately what it means to truly forgive someone. You're a man of action.

00:00:51.260 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks

00:00:56.540 you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated,

00:01:02.600 rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become

00:01:09.060 at the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:14.660 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler. I'm your host. I'm also the founder of

00:01:19.520 this podcast and the Order of Man movement. And if you're very new to the movement or to the podcast

00:01:24.600 itself, I am glad that you're tuned in. Hopefully you're here because you want to be a better man

00:01:29.980 because that is our goal and our objective. And I do that by recording these podcasts. I've had guys

00:01:35.680 like our guest today, Gary John Bishop on before, Jocko Willink, Tim Tebow, Tim Kennedy, Terry Cruz,

00:01:43.840 Ben Shapiro, Matthew McConaughey, Andy Frisilla. We've had such incredible, incredible men on the podcast,

00:01:51.140 which is a testament to the fact that these guys want to serve. They want to share their insight.

00:01:55.500 They want to impart their wisdom and also the lessons that have come hard for them. So we don't

00:02:01.440 have to replicate those same hard-earned lessons and do it hopefully better than they have done

00:02:07.100 or that we've done in the past. So again, glad you're tuned in. Make sure you subscribe to the

00:02:11.440 podcast. You never miss a conversation that we have. One announcement I want to make is I'm very

00:02:16.580 excited for this week because once every quarter we open up our brotherhood of men, it's called

00:02:22.400 the iron council and inside the iron council, we're all working together to identify goals

00:02:27.620 and objectives, to complete goals and objectives, to improve our lives, improve the lives of the

00:02:32.980 people around us. And like I said, we only open once per quarter and we're opening up later

00:02:38.060 this week on the 15th of September. So if you're not on the wait list, go to order a man.com

00:02:44.120 slash iron council. And you can watch a quick video, learn more about what we're doing and

00:02:49.740 get signed up as soon as you possibly can. When we open up on the 15th again, order a man.com

00:02:54.800 slash iron council. With that said, let me introduce you to my guest. His name is Gary

00:02:59.540 John Bishop. He has been on the podcast before. If you don't already know, this guy is a leading

00:03:04.020 personal development expert and he's also the author of the million copy New York times 0.99

00:03:10.100 bestselling book on fuck yourself. Uh, he's helped millions, millions of men break free 0.99

00:03:15.300 from self-sabotaging behaviors in our everyday lives, our relationships and careers. He's

00:03:21.300 actually been very instrumental in my own personal life. And now he's tackling a topic that really

00:03:26.260 hasn't been broached by other authors in this no BS self-help space before, which is parenting

00:03:32.980 with his newest book, grow up becoming the parent your kids deserve. Gary, good to see you again.

00:03:40.460 Thanks for joining me on the podcast. Awesome. Great to be with you, Ryan. I'm, uh, really looking

00:03:46.200 forward to this conversation because as I was, as I was thinking about our discussion today with your

00:03:50.740 new book, grow up, um, parenting is, you know, the most fulfilling, rewarding thing I've ever embarked

00:03:59.440 upon, but it's also one of the most painful and frustrating, uh, journeys that I've ever been on

00:04:06.840 as well over the past 15 years now. And I know you've been doing it a bit longer than me, but man,

00:04:12.080 it is a wild rollercoaster of emotions and highs and lows. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, it doesn't

00:04:20.880 matter what people tell you, but being a parent or how many tips you've had, or even if you think your

00:04:26.360 parents did a brilliant job, when you get exposed to that and it's like, you know, you're exposed to

00:04:34.440 it, it's like, you got to make choices and decisions and, and you're dealing with the pressures of being

00:04:39.940 a functioning adult. Um, it's, it's the most challenging thing you can ever ask anybody to do

00:04:46.060 because you don't get to participate in it without the threads of your own childhood

00:04:53.560 weaving their way in. Yeah. That's one thing I thought as I read your book, uh, in the past week

00:04:59.640 or two is I I've had some revelations over the past several years, specifically with regards to

00:05:05.460 my relationship with my father, which was estranged and he's passed away now, unfortunately, but, uh,

00:05:10.280 we always had a decent relationship, but there was a lot of strain there. And as a young man,

00:05:15.100 it was hard for me to see that I had put him on a, up on a pedestal that I, I don't think was fair

00:05:22.220 to him. And when he passed away, I took him off that pedestal and I started to see him as a man.

00:05:26.760 And that also happened to, when I became a parent, I was like, Oh man. And my only hope with parenting

00:05:32.520 at this point seems to be, and I'm saying this a little bit tongue in cheek, but also a little bit

00:05:36.220 accurate is I hope one day my kids will forgive me too. And lesson that's not, that's not, that's not,

00:05:46.240 it's, it's an unusual thing to say. It's not an unusual thing for someone to think. Um, one of the

00:05:53.760 things that I wanted people to get out of this book, to really get to get out of it was part of

00:06:00.120 the deal with growing up is to make your parents wrong for what they did and didn't do. That's part

00:06:07.380 of the, it's part of the design and it's designed that way to make your departure easier. So when

00:06:14.540 you're 18, 19, 20, 21, you started, you know, you're getting knee deep in your own life and what you

00:06:22.320 want to do with your life. So, so, you know, that kind of critique of how your parents are doing

00:06:29.180 begins at about 10, nine, 10. And then as you, as you get a little bit older and a little bit

00:06:35.120 older, you're starting to kind of, that mystique starts to melt away and you end up with a judgment.

00:06:41.500 You know, I've got an 18 year old son right now and I actually just said to him today, I said,

00:06:45.820 yeah, you must enjoy that like at 18 watching me parent and working out all the ways that I'm getting

00:06:52.260 it wrong because that's the nature of the beast. And so I think what I want people to really get

00:07:01.080 with this book is the biggest thing you can give to your children would be number one, authenticity,

00:07:08.080 but number two, to just kind of lay your cards on the table in terms of like how you're doing and how

00:07:15.340 they're doing. And, and no pretense is not like trying to hold up to some past or, you know, or,

00:07:22.200 you know, some noble venture, you're going to get this wrong. You're going to, you're really going

00:07:27.620 to get it wrong at times. And I think the more authentic you are about that, the better.

00:07:32.480 I know one of the, I've had a rough year and a half. I went through a divorce and obviously trying

00:07:39.200 to help my kids transition through this. And it's, it's been very challenging. But I had a really

00:07:44.400 cathartic moment with my oldest son. This was probably about a month or so ago. And I thought

00:07:51.620 this was blasphemy as a parent, but we had a deep conversation. And I said, among other things,

00:07:57.260 I won't, I mean, a lot of that conversation is between him and I, but among other things was,

00:08:01.800 I'm sorry. I know you're struggling and I'm struggling too. And I'm doing the best that I can

00:08:08.560 right now with the tools that I have. Just know that I love you. I care about you.

00:08:14.400 Your interest, your best interest is what's in my heart and I'm going to get it wrong from time to

00:08:19.500 time. And man, that, that was a connection that I think we hadn't had for a very long time,

00:08:24.980 but it was something that I almost thought wasn't, wasn't appropriate as a parent to say,

00:08:30.760 I'm sorry, or I I'm, I'm lost too. I'm figuring it out. It didn't feel appropriate. But then I,

00:08:35.200 when I read your book, you talk a lot about this authenticity of, of being true, being honest,

00:08:41.700 I think is the term you use, being honest with your children.

00:08:45.200 Yeah. I mean, look, you can't, you can't share everything with your children because there are

00:08:51.800 some things that would just be irresponsibly share, right? You'd be burdening them with something,

00:08:56.260 but to say, look, this is not easy for me either, or I'm struggling with this too, or, you know,

00:09:02.820 this is, I'm not always going to get this right with you. Right. And I'm not. Oh, and look,

00:09:07.720 I think it's one of the biggest burdens of being a parent is the pretense that you somehow are getting

00:09:13.980 it right. Cause we pretend it's like in the back of our minds, we're like, I think I might've just

00:09:19.280 screwed that up, but I'm just going to continue. Like I know what I'm doing. So I think it's

00:09:25.140 important from time to time, especially in those challenging times to be able to just get your cards

00:09:30.840 on the table. I mean, I've had those conversations with my sons, but I've said all of my sons,

00:09:35.300 I didn't get that right. And, uh, and there'll be other times when I won't get it right,

00:09:40.840 but that doesn't mean to say, we're not going to do what I'm saying we're doing.

00:09:44.260 We're going to do that. I'm just not always going to get it right. I'm going to lead the way,

00:09:48.440 but, um, but I'm not always going to get it right. And, and I think your children kind of watching you

00:09:54.920 dealing with that authentically, I think it gives them access to that, gives them a doorway to be

00:10:01.100 authentic to say, Oh, this is all right. I don't need to pretend that I've got it together or pretend

00:10:07.200 that this isn't bothering me, which, you know, kids will do that all the time. They'll say,

00:10:11.560 they'll deny what's bothering them. So that kind of pathway of being authentic from time to time

00:10:18.140 to get your cards on the table. Cause the truth is we don't have this figured out.

00:10:23.160 That's the truth. We're working. That's, uh, um, and, and, and life comes along and hits you upside

00:10:31.580 the head. And so what are you going to do then? Just try and, you know, fuffle your way through it.

00:10:36.760 Are you going to say, look, this is the direction I'm taking. And again, with my children, sometimes I

00:10:42.840 get that right. Sometimes I don't, but, but that's okay. And, and I need them to know that that's okay

00:10:48.260 for them too. They're not always going to get it right. Um, but it, but I believe in them. And so

00:10:53.700 there's this kind of like, it's like this environment of authenticity that you start to

00:10:58.040 create with your children that just makes for a much healthier and more empowering kind of

00:11:02.980 kind of circumstance or situation. I think one of the concerns that at least I have,

00:11:07.960 and I'm sure other men feel this way is that when we are going through difficult times, we don't want

00:11:12.040 to, you alluded to it earlier. We don't want to burden our children with emotional baggage that

00:11:16.680 isn't theirs to carry. Um, I actually ran across a term and the term is escaping me right now. Maybe

00:11:22.300 you know what it is, but there's the concept that, and I think this happens in divorce couples where 0.82

00:11:27.780 for example, a son may take on the fatherly role in the home of the single mother and the daughter

00:11:37.520 may take on the motherly role or the wife role almost of the single father. And I want to say

00:11:44.560 parenting transference or there's, I can't remember the term right off hand, but that is unfair when

00:11:50.640 you put all of that emotional baggage on them and they can't be kids. And now all of a sudden a son

00:11:55.920 believes he needs to be the husband to his mom and a daughter believes that she needs to be the wife 1.00

00:12:00.720 to her father. And I think that's the, the extremes, right? One extreme is I don't share anything.

00:12:06.500 The other is I share everything and burden my children. Right. Right. So I think, you know,

00:12:14.040 it's very challenging to get, to be a parent. It's very challenging to be a parent when the parents

00:12:20.240 are divorced or divorcing, it just adds an extra thing in there. The only one thing I would offer

00:12:25.500 in that kind of environment is there needs to be a meeting of the minds. There needs to be

00:12:31.040 an area when it comes to the children where you both say you're going to continue to function

00:12:36.220 together in their best interests. So you might not be together as parents, but you're saying when

00:12:44.020 it comes to that subject and what's good for them, we're going to work that out between the two of us

00:12:50.240 and function for them, even though we're not together. So I used to have this saying,

00:12:55.940 this was years ago when I was doing a lot of personal growth work and doing workshops and

00:13:02.400 stuff. And I used to say, I'm committed that families work, whether they're together or not.

00:13:09.020 And that was my big commitment in life. I was committed that families could work. They could

00:13:12.580 work things out. They could make things workable, even though they're not together. So I think that's

00:13:18.980 important when there's a separation or a divorce, right? But, but you're buying on the money with your

00:13:24.900 kids. You know, it's important that you don't burden them. And, and, and, and you got to be

00:13:32.220 clear about that. Like, you know, I'm not expecting you to be anything other than the way you are. I'm

00:13:38.200 not expecting you to change the way you are at all in the face of this. You know, all you need to know

00:13:44.200 is you're still loved. You're still cared for. I got your back. Both your mom and I still got your back.

00:13:50.660 So that'd be one thing. I don't talk about this in the book, but I actually talked about it in my last

00:13:55.860 book and relationship. When it splits, when it doesn't work, you got to resist the urge to go

00:14:03.120 down that pathway of kind of barfing it all up with each other. There has to come a point where that

00:14:11.880 ends, but it's just like, I think the way I said it in my last book is you got to end the relationship

00:14:17.200 with the same kind of values that you started it. And that's challenging. That's very challenging

00:14:24.980 because if you started that relationship, you said something like love, honor, and protect or

00:14:30.000 something. All right, well, that's how you end it. Those same principles. And again, it's like,

00:14:37.060 I think somebody said, they called it like lighthouse parenting. That is, it's less about

00:14:44.260 what you do. Sorry, less about what you say and more about what you do, because that's what they

00:14:50.960 watch more than anything. And I do get into that in this book. I say, you know, like you're being

00:14:55.320 observed and everything you say and everything you do. Now that doesn't mean you say you need to kind

00:15:00.360 of walk in on eggshells, but you do need to realize like they are picking up cues as to how

00:15:07.260 they should be or how they should not be. So you should kind of treat those kind of things

00:15:12.540 responsibly, you know, like not like a burden, but really like the opportunity to demonstrate

00:15:17.600 something because your children are going to face these challenges in their lives too. You know,

00:15:22.640 maybe not these ones, but similar ones, life-changing situations that come along 0.92

00:15:27.600 when you don't feel like you've got your shit together. 0.98

00:15:32.900 You know, how do you keep your shit together when you feel like you don't have it together 0.99

00:15:38.000 anymore? How do you form some kind of foundation, some kind of principle-based, you know, foundation 0.99

00:15:44.800 for you to make your way through these times? And I do think in this book, I do touch on that

00:15:50.420 and I get into that with people like, you know, and as I always do, you know, life is not,

00:15:55.480 it's not lining up with what you want.

00:15:58.400 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a challenge, you know, it's, as you're talking about,

00:16:02.060 I like how you said, and the relationship, the way you started with those same values that that's

00:16:08.460 actually really powerful. The other thing I often talk with guys about, because there's a lot of

00:16:13.440 vitriol and hostility and animosity towards exes in these situations. I don't have that. So I want to

00:16:19.960 be clear. I don't, I don't have that with my ex. But there is a lot of that for other men. And they

00:16:24.500 often ask, you know, how, how do you overcome that? Well, it's the same way that you would

00:16:28.680 overcome not wanting to go to the gym or not wanting to go to work and do your work for the

00:16:33.280 day. Like, you know, it has to be done. There's a reason why it's done. And so you may have vitriol

00:16:39.120 on animosity and hostility towards your ex, but you can make a decision to be amicable.

00:16:45.300 It's not for her. He may hate her. It's not for her. It's for your kids. It's for you. It's for

00:16:51.640 your own wellbeing. And it's for your kids to see how, you know, these guys say, I would do anything

00:16:58.120 for my kids. Really? Would you treat your ex with dignity for them? Well, you know, you don't know my

00:17:02.260 ex. I don't need to know your ex. Like what if treating your ex with dignity is the best thing

00:17:08.040 you could possibly do for your children? I'll give you a little, a little addendum to that little

00:17:12.980 piece to add on to that. When you're in the throes of that thing, when you're in the, you know,

00:17:18.780 either the beginning of it or in the middle of it, right. And there's that big temptation now.

00:17:24.780 It's a massive temptation to what I'm going to call indulge yourself. And you're going to indulge

00:17:31.980 yourself. You're going to indulge your anger. You're going to indulge your fruit. You're going

00:17:35.520 to indulge. You're going to double down on it and go for it. You just need to realize all of that

00:17:40.560 that you're doing will have to be undone at some point. You'll have to undo it. Now, maybe not with

00:17:46.620 a person. You'll have to, at some later point, come to terms with yourself. A lot of people will just

00:17:56.540 justify their way to death. Justify, justify, justify, justify. But in the background,

00:18:02.360 in the background of their thoughts, they know that was bullshit. And they know that that's not 0.99

00:18:06.540 who they are. And they know they're not proud of that. And they know that that wasn't their best

00:18:11.060 moment. So the more that you can function out of some, like I called it, some kind of value-based

00:18:16.660 principles, the actually, the quicker you'll go through that process, let's go through quicker.

00:18:23.240 Sure. Now, it doesn't mean to say just bottle everything up. You know, you can journal,

00:18:27.600 write things down. You can go see a therapist. You go work out. You can, you know, meditate.

00:18:32.000 There's a lot of things you can do to deal with that. Do personal growth and development work,

00:18:35.700 whatever you need to do. But yeah, like barfing up your guts, it doesn't actually serve anything.

00:18:43.060 People will say, oh yeah, I feel better after that. Yeah, I know. But then it starts eating at you.

00:18:47.520 You get the temporary relief and then it comes and gets you.

00:18:50.620 Yeah. Well, that's the hard part is you get some sort of validation immediately, right? It feels

00:18:56.540 good. You say something nasty or you get her or you, you know, withhold something from her that

00:19:02.020 she might need a request. And you're like, yeah, got her. It feels good. But like you said, long-term,

00:19:07.260 it's not going to serve you or anybody that you care about.

00:19:10.260 It's just payback. It just keeps towing and froing and towing and froing.

00:19:13.580 Yeah. Yeah. I do have a question about the line with regards to children. I was talking with the

00:19:21.860 woman that I'm dating and we were having a discussion about parenting. And I think we have

00:19:27.000 a little bit of a disagreement in this, you know, not so much so that we can't come to some mutual

00:19:31.160 understanding, but I'm really curious on your thoughts with regards to the line of allowing

00:19:37.780 children to freely express themselves, freely pursue things without our, our own biases or

00:19:45.700 thoughts into that schooling or religion, for example, the line between that and then allowing

00:19:52.800 and offering guidance, instruction, focus, and even offering our bias towards what we believe will lead

00:19:59.280 them to a more fulfilling life. Yeah. It's all good, but your children mostly won't take that on.

00:20:08.700 They'll do their thing. So if you think about it this way, okay. Think about the form of years,

00:20:14.000 think about the years between say four and about 18, 17, 18. Okay. In that pocket is when a human being

00:20:25.080 will come to some pretty significant determinations. Okay. You cannot intervene in that process,

00:20:33.380 no matter what you do, no matter how regularly you do it, how incessant you are, they will come to

00:20:40.020 their own determinations. And very often they're the exact opposite of what their parents were trying

00:20:48.840 and still because a child must have the freedom to make those determinations. And they do. And that

00:20:57.640 doesn't mean to say you don't live your life a certain way. Doesn't mean to say you don't guide

00:21:02.220 your children. Doesn't mean that at all. You just need to be prepared for, and they might go the exact

00:21:09.640 opposite way from whatever you're suggesting, because that is the want of a developing human being.

00:21:15.240 But do you think that there's any sort of element of, of, you know, this, this idea or this concept

00:21:21.020 of the prodigal son, where you might instill a set of values and beliefs and virtues, and they may

00:21:27.400 stray purely out of contempt, just rebelliousness. And then at some point, maybe, uh, fall back or come

00:21:34.780 back to what they had seen as an example that you have set in, in, in their lives.

00:21:39.580 They might, they might do. Um, I think we have to realize, you know, without going into the

00:21:47.000 neuroscience of it too deeply, because I don't, I'm not a neuroscientist, but, you know, you're born

00:21:52.860 with a certain, certain kind of genetic soup that will make you kind of predisposed to X, Y, or Z.

00:21:58.820 It's not half you, half your wife. It's your family and her family. That's the soup. Um, so there's

00:22:10.500 that. And then there's just the way that life happens to a human being, right? So by that, I mean,

00:22:18.480 in this book, I talk about trauma. You talk about child will get traumatized, which a lot of people

00:22:24.460 like, well, I was never traumatized. Everybody's traumatized. You, if you think about a child

00:22:28.540 coming into this life, you know, like curiosity, imagination, creativity, and then it meets the

00:22:36.660 world and then it meets people. So rather than trauma, isn't necessarily traumatic, you got to

00:22:45.300 think of it more like an interruption to the way that life was. So life is going along, you're seven

00:22:53.020 years of age, and then boom, an incident. It doesn't have to be particularly big, or like I say,

00:22:59.720 traumatic, but it changed you. And from that moment on, life took a turn. Those turns, a parent has

00:23:08.520 absolutely zero say in what those turns are and when they're happening. Zero, no say in it. So that's why,

00:23:18.980 that's why you can live your life by a certain set of values, but you'll meet people all over the

00:23:23.840 world who are the complete opposite of the values with which they were raised. There was no

00:23:30.680 returning. There were other people who had to explore it for themselves, which I think is way

00:23:36.620 more valuable. You can say to your children, look, this is how I live, and this is how this has benefited

00:23:43.380 me. You're going to have to make some of these decisions on your own as you're getting older.

00:23:48.660 You can copy some of these things, but you might want to adopt some new things of your own.

00:23:53.420 See, that's a much wider and more available kind of future for your child rather than you must,

00:24:00.820 you must, you know, because ultimately, you know, as the old saying, whatever you resist persists

00:24:07.720 by function of your resistance or whatever you press and press and press and press,

00:24:13.960 you're less likely to get that outcome.

00:24:18.040 Yeah, I want to get, I want to get to this concept. I think what you're, what you're talking

00:24:23.020 about now is learning to let go of things outside of our control. And I want to get to that.

00:24:27.420 Before I do, when you said every child is, is, is traumatized, I think is the word. Is that right?

00:24:34.040 Traumatized. That's the phrasing you used. A little bit of me, like, like cringe, like,

00:24:39.100 because if everybody's traumatized, then nobody is. And I think that in society,

00:24:43.860 we have this tendency of over dramatizing scenarios. Like for example, my mom would 0.99

00:24:52.740 whack our butts with a wooden spoon, but she didn't beat us black and blue. I wasn't ever, 1.00

00:24:59.780 you know, molested by, you know, my uncle. Like those are what I would consider traumatizing

00:25:06.080 events. But I think the distinction you're making is that we all deal with things that change us.

00:25:10.600 The wooden spoon changed me until it didn't. I remember, I remember I got to a certain age

00:25:15.380 and my mom said, I'm going to get the wooden spoon. I'm like, go ahead, give it your best shot.

00:25:21.240 Like at some point is just, it didn't, it was no longer relevant. Another tactic was necessary.

00:25:27.100 Right. Um, yeah. And we have a great relationship, but then I think you're making the distinction

00:25:32.560 between, uh, traumatized and traumatic. It sounds like you're, you're using those two words as,

00:25:39.400 as different things. Right. So, so, you know, people just think about it like this.

00:25:47.080 If you think about your life like this, kind of, if you think about it like this pathway and the

00:25:52.540 pathway is clear, right? When you start out this journey of life and then, like I said, life happens.

00:25:57.760 So things come along. Some of them are, I think you could say, are, would be described as objectively

00:26:06.020 traumatic. Like, wow, someone went through that, right? But people get traumatized by

00:26:15.200 being single dirt in class in front of their kids. One moment life changed. It was like, life is suddenly 0.67

00:26:24.420 like this and that experience hit them. And what, what children experience is a failure to be in those

00:26:32.160 traumatic moments, the experience failure to deal with what they're getting presented with. And it starts

00:26:39.200 in those moments, they become something that eventually, right? Like, so one of the things I

00:26:45.280 would say you became from that was independent. So if you're looking at early childhood, you became,

00:26:50.420 you became independent somewhere in that little kind of fluctuation of life. You learned that being

00:26:59.080 self-sufficient was where no one could get you. So then that's, that's what I would call, yeah,

00:27:05.600 that's one of those moments where life is going along like this. Something happened, then it went

00:27:11.620 there. It went there. Now, when it went there, believe it or not, that was actually a decision of

00:27:17.840 yours. And believe it or not, no one could take that away from you or alter that. And in fact, even

00:27:26.560 though it was a decision of yours, you probably have very little recollection of having made it because

00:27:32.760 it was like an adjustment, an adjustment and a moment of time. And once you've adjusted to that

00:27:39.200 or a path, off you went. So then you go on that pathway. So when I call, I do call them traumas

00:27:46.540 because they're like, for that three-year-old, five-year-old, eight-year-old, nine-year-old,

00:27:52.080 and their mind, it's a, it was a big deal, even if it lasted five seconds. And you can talk to people,

00:27:58.880 you can get into people and they'll take you back. And they'll be like, oh yeah, there was this time.

00:28:03.840 And I remember, I had a client one time who had some really, really simple experiences with a group

00:28:11.260 of friends. He said, let's go do this thing. They were on their way to do it. And the last minute,

00:28:16.720 there was about eight of them. He was only like 10 years of age. And they all said,

00:28:20.760 no, let's go that way. Now that's nothing. That's nothing, right? But in that moment,

00:28:26.240 he felt betrayed. And that experience of betrayal for that little 10-year-old boy just sunk

00:28:31.580 right in with him, like smoke. Like they turned their back on me. And so it became a thing for him

00:28:38.380 in his life. He started to pick up the little nuance because that's what I said this in earlier books.

00:28:44.760 You're not quite born a blank slate, but man, there's a lot of blankness. And so that's why I talk

00:28:51.540 about it. Like if you take the case that you have these things in your life, whether you think your

00:28:57.440 childhood was traumatic or not enough, coached an awful lot of people over the years and people

00:29:01.720 who've come in and said, I had a great childhood. And I'll say, okay, let's take a look. And they

00:29:05.760 were right there. They had their moments when life took a turn and so were this thing. Or, you know,

00:29:12.460 like a very common one with parents is, my mother was the weak one or my father was a weak one and

00:29:21.120 the other parent was the strong one. Now that child created that dynamic in their mind and followed it

00:29:28.780 and believed it and gathered evidence for it and found, yeah, other biases were coming to the fore,

00:29:36.620 like all the way through the life. Same with divorces. They might not admit it to you,

00:29:41.240 but one of the two is getting the blame, right? So one gets the blame and one's the innocent one

00:29:47.260 in the mind of the child. You can't, you can try and undo that with them, but that's only something

00:29:53.660 they can undo for themselves later when they become adults and they work their way through it.

00:29:59.160 You can kind of point them at their action, you know, like, look, this is one of these things that

00:30:04.060 happens. There's no bad person here. There's no good person here. This is just one of these things.

00:30:08.440 But, uh, but yeah, these, these, these kind of changes that you'll see in your life

00:30:14.680 can sometimes be very subtle and seemingly innocuous, innocuous.

00:30:20.540 Man, let me just step away from the conversation very quickly. Uh, one common objection that I hear

00:30:25.460 quite often when it comes to our brotherhood, the iron council is I'm not going to pay money for

00:30:31.700 friends. That's one thing a lot of guys will say, and that's good because my answer to that is we don't

00:30:37.300 want to be your friend. If friends were all it took to be successful in your life, you'd have all

00:30:42.380 the money you want. You'd have the six pack abs. You've never had the dream life you've always been

00:30:46.460 interested in, but we're doing something more inside the iron council than just there to shoot 0.99

00:30:51.940 the shit and talk about the latest ball game or complain about our wives with each other. We're there 0.98

00:30:58.240 to hold you accountable and we're going to hold you accountable to the hopes and dreams and desires

00:31:02.180 that you have built for yourself. We don't build that stuff for you. And that's it. We're going to

00:31:07.120 help you identify what those goals are using a proven science backed approach and keep you on track to

00:31:13.540 make more money, build better relationships, get lean, strong fit, and really any other objective

00:31:19.420 you have in your life. So if you're looking for friends, I don't know, go ask your neighbor or go to

00:31:24.880 the bar or whatever. But if you're looking for a brotherhood of men who are going to be accountable

00:31:30.880 and hold you accountable to something higher and have the guidance, direction, and mentorship along

00:31:36.120 the way, then you'll want to check out the iron council. You can do that at order of man.com

00:31:40.300 slash iron council. We open on the 15th. So here in the next few days. So again, make sure you check

00:31:44.920 it out. Order of man.com slash iron council. Hopefully we'll see you inside in a few days. All right,

00:31:51.100 let's get back to it with Gary. The question then is how as a parent, do you help your children

00:31:56.500 navigate that? So as an example, my empathetic intelligence isn't real high. I just, I don't have

00:32:06.000 a lot of empathy. I don't have a lot of time for, and even as I say it, I say bullshit. It's not really 0.99

00:32:10.420 bullshit, but like I interpret it as that sometimes. If somebody else is feeling something for me to say 0.81

00:32:15.600 it's bullshit is probably not right. But, um, for example, I might have one of my kids and my kids 0.94

00:32:21.620 don't wear glasses, but I'm just throwing this out here. One of my kids might come home for school

00:32:24.760 and say, Oh, you know, little Timmy called me four eyes. And my thought is, well, yeah,

00:32:29.700 welcome to life. Get tough. Get over it. Right. What you're saying is that might be something that

00:32:35.320 actually means something significant. So how do you manage, Hey, you're going to have to get tough

00:32:40.980 versus let me put my arm around you. Let me like, let's talk through it. I don't really think

00:32:46.160 there's a lot to talk about in that situation, but I don't know. I don't know how to, I don't

00:32:49.240 know how to ask him a question, ask him one question. And the question is, what are you making

00:32:55.300 that mean? And you'll get right to the heart of it right there. Hmm. I'm writing that down. Cause

00:33:03.200 that's a question. I like the phrasing of it. What are you making that mean? It doesn't actually

00:33:08.240 mean that, but what are you making it mean? Right. So what do you make it mean? And you can

00:33:12.980 say to them, look, I get that you would make that mean that you don't, you don't take it away from

00:33:17.460 them, but it's, but you're starting to let them see that to quote Sartre, the great French 0.94

00:33:22.260 existentialist people make meaning out of fucking everything, right? Even the way I'm talking right 0.96

00:33:28.920 now, you've got listeners who are adding shit to what I'm saying and like, Oh yeah, either agreeing or 0.98

00:33:37.480 disagreeing, coming to their own conclusions about me and you and this situation, because 0.99

00:33:45.960 that's what human beings do. And those formative years, some of those meanings, if you like,

00:33:54.320 the children come up with, stay with them for a lifetime, a lifetime. So if you look at,

00:34:03.040 if you don't mind, I'll use kind of your situation as an example. Okay. When you sit, you would say

00:34:08.440 to your kid, you're welcome to life, get over it, kind of deal, right? You weren't born that way.

00:34:13.260 There was a time before that you became that way at a point in your life that way that you

00:34:18.840 and it brings its own set of problems, right? It's not, it's not the golden ticket,

00:34:25.760 right? It's not the right way. No, because it can be a blind spot. You can leave people with

00:34:35.300 the experience that you don't care, even though you're trying to get them to get that they shouldn't

00:34:40.200 care. It's so easy to leave them with the experience that you don't. And they're so, they're like, Oh,

00:34:46.340 he doesn't give a shit. Understand? Even though what you're trying to do is equip them. Right. 0.99

00:34:52.880 And that's another part of the parenting thing that needs to come with authenticity. And I say this all

00:35:00.200 the time. Don't be vague about why you're doing what you're doing. Be clear about why you're doing

00:35:07.260 what you're doing. It's not that I don't love you. It's not that I don't recognize you're feeling

00:35:12.340 something right now. What I want to do is equip you. That's a different conversation than get over

00:35:19.340 it. So you're kind of letting, you're letting your children in on, listen, you know, like I don't

00:35:28.280 always, and I think that's part of the problem because I talk about, you know, again, back to

00:35:33.000 the Sartre thing about adding meaning. If you're not clear, you're leaving the field open for your

00:35:40.680 child's imagination to take over with what you're saying. Yeah. I actually had an experience with

00:35:47.340 that over the weekend. It was my daughter's birthday and we celebrated and did her thing

00:35:51.300 all day. And we had a great time and she stayed up a little past her bedtime, which was fine. No

00:35:56.440 problems. Her birthday, we're having a celebration families over good. Uh, and then it came to a point

00:36:03.320 where I've decided it's time for her to go to bed. And I told her, Hey, it's time for you to get your 0.96

00:36:07.880 pajamas on, brush your teeth, get ready for bed. Let's go. And she was like, why? I said,

00:36:12.480 because it's time for bed. It's past your bedtime. Like it's time for bed. You need to go to bed.

00:36:16.140 And that was the, that was the reason I gave her. And my mom was in town and, uh, she had told me the

00:36:22.900 story and I guess they were talking afterwards and she was really upset because she thought that

00:36:26.720 I didn't care about her birthday because I made her go to bed at this certain time.

00:36:31.080 And fortunately my mom had my back. She was like, no, your dad loves you. He cares about you

00:36:35.040 so much so that he wants you to go to bed so that you can get sleep and be well-rested and

00:36:41.000 wake up tomorrow in a good mood and ready to tackle the day. And I'm like, yeah, those are things I

00:36:45.580 probably should have explained, but my mom had to, in that case, fortunately she was there to be able 0.72

00:36:49.500 to pick up my slack. Right. But, but it's so true. You know, like we, we do things in the name of

00:36:57.420 something. I mean, I'll tell you one of the big in the name of, okay. As parents is fear. So I'm

00:37:05.380 doing this, but really I'm afraid of something else. That's why I'm doing it. So we we've got a

00:37:11.040 lot of in the name of like, um, I'm saying this and I'm doing this because la la la la la la. But if

00:37:17.200 you get underneath it, you'll see a lot of times with parents, it's the fear of how this might turn

00:37:24.760 out. If I don't, it's the fear of where they might end up because ultimately comes back to the same

00:37:31.060 thing for parents. We're shit scared that we're going to fuck this up. That's it. We're scared 0.98

00:37:37.520 we're going to fuck it up. And that is what adds to a lot of those pretenses and a lot of those in 0.61

00:37:44.660 the name of, right. You know, um, you know, cause you know, I'm, I'm definitely, I'm definitely a

00:37:51.300 rules dad. I definitely have rules. I don't have a ton of rules, but I'm a rules guy.

00:37:55.260 So we got a little amount of rules and we stick to them even when it's not convenient for me. So

00:38:00.960 it's not convenient for me for us to have this rule, but we got it. So here we go. Right. Um,

00:38:08.320 and so, you know, like, I don't, like I said, I don't have tons of, I don't box my children and

00:38:15.260 all they'll do when they have 13 and 14 and 15 is just try and burn the house down, maybe even

00:38:21.540 literally in an environment that they can experience freedom and they can be free in it,

00:38:27.360 but it's still an environment that is a, yeah, that is a bit of a bubble here. That's right.

00:38:31.440 Because in that bubble, you get a sense of the world from a fairly safe perspective, but it doesn't

00:38:37.840 protect them from their own imagination. What are some of the rules? Do you, do you still have kids

00:38:43.440 at home or are they all out of the house now? And what were those rules? No, no, my oldest is 18.

00:38:48.020 I have an 11 year old at home and a nine year old at home. Got it. Um, I mean, you know, like it's

00:38:53.300 bedtime at a certain time, definitely a rule of ours. Um, you know, the toothbrush and all that sort of

00:39:00.480 stuff, homework, that sort of stuff, whatever things that end, so that end, you know, music

00:39:08.660 teacher or something to do with sports, they, they got to be all in with it. If you want to do that,

00:39:13.740 we're all in and we don't kind of, you know, we don't paddle it around. So if we're going to do it,

00:39:18.440 let's do it. Um, and I'm big on that with the kids to let them experience what it's like to go two

00:39:24.420 feet in on something. And so we do that even when it gets tough for them, we still do that. We still

00:39:30.260 pursue that. And then the simple things like, you know, being respectful, you know, like,

00:39:35.240 and it's, and, and they don't always get that right, you know, you know, and they don't like

00:39:41.740 they'll say things, you know, in a fit of temper or some, you know, upset they've got, or maybe just

00:39:46.840 carelessly. So I tend to be very understanding, but the big thing for me with all my boys is tell me

00:39:54.200 the truth. If you tell me the truth, we'll work this out. If you lie to me, I'm going to

00:40:00.240 handle you first. You're probably going to end up with something you didn't want to do.

00:40:04.680 Then we're going to work at it. So you're just going to double up on it. So being truthful to me

00:40:09.860 is key to everything. Like it's just cards on the table. And when my boys put the cards on the table,

00:40:16.500 there is, there's no, there's no repercussion other than we're going to talk it out and repair

00:40:23.180 any damage that might've been done. That's it. I'm not going to be like, Oh, well now I'm going to

00:40:28.000 double down on you because you, you know, if you tell me the truth, then we'll work it out.

00:40:34.600 Are there times where you're asking your, your boys to tell the truth? And I think that's a great

00:40:39.040 rule. And, and I imagine that for most of us listening and you and I, we, we, we would say

00:40:44.180 that we do tell the truth, but that's probably not entirely accurate. And are there times and

00:40:49.300 places where it's appropriate that we, as parents don't disclose the entire truth,

00:40:54.180 or should we hold ourselves to be entirely truthful?

00:40:58.860 No. So that's when you got to be responsible. So I got to look at this cat and say,

00:41:04.260 you're 10 or you're eight or you're seven. How much of this can you take? So let me communicate

00:41:12.060 this to in a way that, that you can take right now. And that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to

00:41:18.220 communicate this in a way that you can handle it because I'm just not going to give you something

00:41:24.740 that you can't take. Right. And, you know, that's, to me, that's responsible communication. You know,

00:41:31.540 one of the things there's, there's two types of responsible communication. Okay. The first one

00:41:35.860 is being responsible for what you say. Okay. So that is, what am I doing with that? Well, I'm actually

00:41:41.500 looking at how might this go down with that person. Right. That's, that's being a responsible

00:41:47.560 communicator. The other side of the responsible communication is responsible listening. So that

00:41:52.480 is, am I adding anything in here? Right. Am I, what am I bringing to the table here? So I think I

00:42:00.380 talk about this in the book. I say, you know, speak like it means everything and listen, like it doesn't

00:42:04.200 mean anything. So I speak like the words that I use, I talk like, you know, what's coming at my mouth

00:42:10.240 is going to land. So the younger they get, you know, you got to be the responsible one. You got

00:42:16.520 to be like, okay, so how can I phrase this in such a way where they get a sense of what the world is

00:42:22.760 right now. And, and yeah, that can be tricky, but that is the job. That's what the way shake from,

00:42:29.100 from authenticity, right? Some people mistake authenticity for candor. I'll just tell you,

00:42:35.900 right. That's not authenticity. Authenticity begins. Well, authenticity begins with talking

00:42:44.560 about yourself. Like, you know, mostly when you hear the law, especially these days, people talk,

00:42:52.800 well, I'm just being more authentic self. And I'm like, no, you're actually being an asshole. 1.00

00:42:56.820 You're being a dick. Yeah, exactly. 1.00

00:42:58.040 Right now. And, and so people, you know, when they're complaining or venting, that's not

00:43:06.400 authenticity. Okay. That's letting out your upsets. That's, that's not authenticity begins

00:43:13.720 with, I mean, let me give you an example. I might really dislike someone. Authenticity would

00:43:21.180 be me saying, I've been hanging on to my view about that person. And I've been letting it

00:43:27.000 sour me. That's authentic, right? Not like this person isn't. Again, those are the kind

00:43:35.580 of examples. When you speak that way in front of your children, you'll hear them talk that

00:43:43.380 way. And not too, not too long a time, they'll start to key in, they'll watch, they'll hear

00:43:50.600 because authenticity, as long as you're not, I mean, you don't, again, authenticity isn't

00:43:56.320 dwelling in your upsets. Authenticity is fundamentally telling the truth about yourself, right? And

00:44:03.600 with no shame, no guilt, no, you know, not blaming anybody. I'm not hanging on to it.

00:44:08.680 I'm not pitying myself. I'm not victimizing myself. I'm just being upfront and straight

00:44:14.640 about it. This is, listen, I've been being this way. You know, I've been being angry.

00:44:18.900 I've been being upset. I've been being, I've been blaming other people for how this is

00:44:22.880 going and that doesn't work. That's a powerful conversation. And then, you know, one of these

00:44:28.800 days, you'll, because my children will do it too. It'll come out of their mouth. Like

00:44:33.800 my older son, he's, his aim is to become a professional soccer player. And he's playing

00:44:41.280 in a, you know, pretty prestigious setup here in Germany. And he came off the field the other

00:44:46.720 thing. And I just went, okay, I just raised my eyebrows and he went, yeah. Okay. So what

00:44:55.220 happened was that I have made some decisions and I lost my focus and I'm like, Ooh, that's

00:45:01.900 powerful right there. Right. Yeah. He says, what I need to work on is staying focused when

00:45:08.200 distractions are happening around me. Hmm. That's powerful right there. You know, that's

00:45:14.700 like, that's, you got the mindset, you got, you're pointed in the right direction. Um,

00:45:20.700 and I think, again, I think the more you're that kind of person, the more you're that kind

00:45:25.520 of man, the more that becomes the environment around you.

00:45:29.640 Yeah. I used to have a coach that experience you just shared. I used to have a coach that

00:45:34.220 when we would complain in football in high school about the referee, you know, ruining

00:45:38.500 the game or making a bad call, he would always say, why did you let the game get so close

00:45:43.420 that a single call from the referee would determine the outcome? And it was

00:45:47.260 like, Oh, yep. That's exactly right. One bad call from the referee determined the outcome

00:45:53.160 of the game. Or did you play that horribly? It's like, yeah, we need to take ownership

00:45:57.240 of that. Right. And so, so that kind of responsibility isn't burdensome.

00:46:05.980 How do you, maybe this pivots and shifts gears a little bit, but one thing you

00:46:09.440 mentioned is being authentic, meaning starting with yourself, self-assessment,

00:46:13.820 self-reflection. Uh, and then I think as we do that, at least in my experiences, I've

00:46:18.420 done that. Uh, I, I feel, I feel a lot of guilt and shame for the way, for example,

00:46:24.480 that I've showed up with my children or how I may have disciplined them in a moment or

00:46:28.720 reacted to a situation or even the breakdown of the nuclear family within my dynamic, which

00:46:34.140 is something I value, something I cherished. And I hold a lot of guilt and shame in, in

00:46:40.400 that. How do I begin to, or anybody who's listening, begin to release that? Um, because

00:46:46.840 I, I think if I do and learn how to do that, I can lead my children as their father more

00:46:51.920 powerfully, but it's still really hard for me to overcome those things.

00:46:56.180 Yeah. So guilt doesn't show up in a vacuum. It's not just showing up because it's not

00:47:03.860 just what you did. Okay. So I'm going to use the same question on you. You did what you

00:47:10.720 did. Now, what do you say that means about you? And you'll see what the meaning you're

00:47:17.320 writing. Well, this means I'm, yeah, it's a lot of negative self-talk in the, in, to

00:47:22.100 answer those questions a lot. Like I, you know, like I failed, I'm a failure, those types

00:47:26.560 of things.

00:47:27.560 Very good. Right now just hold that, just hold that right there. Okay. Just hold that thought

00:47:33.740 right there. That's what you just said. That is the one thing in this life that you're out

00:47:41.600 to avoid all costs. That's a now doing that. No, what you just said, I'm a failure. That's

00:47:50.580 a, like an undercurrent, very common amongst me, by the way. But anyway, that's an undercurrent.

00:47:57.720 Like that's, everything you're building is to prove that that's not true. And then when

00:48:05.480 you have these moments, up it comes to experience this guilt or something, shame, guilt and shame.

00:48:14.560 I talk about in the book, they're like the twin towers for human beings, right? They arise,

00:48:20.920 guilt and shame, they often come up together. And so if you want to talk about traumas, right?

00:48:28.260 That's a, that recurring, I'm a failure, but I'm avoiding it and I'm getting past it.

00:48:34.900 And look, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. But it's in the background, like

00:48:39.960 waiting to come up. It's like trying to keep a beach ball under the water. Up it comes, right?

00:48:45.860 And then I'm going, I'm going, I'm going, I'm going. And then, so then I'm in a good spot.

00:48:49.420 Things are going well. And then bang, up it comes, right? So it's like a recurring battle.

00:48:55.080 And, and sometimes it feels like it literally, but it's a mental battle, right? And so one

00:49:03.380 of the things that I invite people to take on for themselves is whenever you do reflect

00:49:10.180 and you find yourself in these spots, because you, because you will find yourself in them.

00:49:15.220 You don't, I mean, I wish we could all aspire to what Sartre said, that it doesn't mean anything,

00:49:22.300 right? Now, when Sartre said that, he was basically saying, no, it is in fact fucking meaningless. 0.82

00:49:28.980 There is no inherent meaning in any of that, right? We adhere and, and, and, and add meaning 0.59

00:49:37.900 to everything, but, but in terms of universe, it doesn't mean anything, right? That doesn't

00:49:45.080 mean to say it's pointless. It doesn't mean to say it's without repercussion. He's just

00:49:49.060 saying there's no inherent value in it. It's just that.

00:49:55.240 But does that drive to future nihilism where it's like, yeah, that didn't mean anything?

00:50:01.060 Well, I mean, does that keep us from improving?

00:50:04.820 No. Well, no, no, because it's like, it's like instant forgiveness of oneself.

00:50:10.560 So I can be like, I'm a freaking human being too. I've made mistakes. You know, I can't,

00:50:18.080 I can't, because sometimes we live with this model in our mind of this kind of perfect human

00:50:24.720 being.

00:50:25.540 I'm just going to be that, which on its own is impossible, right? Because, you know,

00:50:32.800 there's much at times, right? I mean, you know, neuroscience is still arguing whether we

00:50:37.340 have free will or not. I mean, it's not like, you know, I'm just throwing up to the wind,

00:50:43.980 but there has to be, there has to be times in your life and those moments of self-reflection

00:50:48.320 where you're just not going to continue punishing yourself when you're saying,

00:50:55.840 I did what I did and I own it and I own all of it, but I'm not going to continue to punish

00:51:02.880 myself for it because it doesn't serve me and it doesn't serve anyone. And in fact,

00:51:06.780 that self-punishment, try this on, is a way of absolving yourself of blame. So self-punishment,

00:51:17.180 yeah, is a way to distract. So, and I do talk about this in the book, I talk about

00:51:25.540 the importance of the tribe and how you appear to the tribe.

00:51:29.580 So, and if you try on the idea that a lot of what you experience as a human being is,

00:51:37.120 is a communication to your group, to a lot of what you do and, you know, well, everything you do,

00:51:45.140 everything you say is a communication. You know, you're letting people know, right? Even though

00:51:50.680 you might not be saying anything, you're letting people know. Here's what you let them know. I'm not

00:51:55.620 saying anything. So you're always communicating something. And so that sense of shame, that sense

00:52:03.940 of guilt is a communication to the group. And what's the communication? Communication is,

00:52:08.100 I've fucked up, but can you see, I feel bad for it? Because you, because ultimately what we're, 0.97

00:52:14.220 even people who are like fiercely independent, you're only ever independent in the context of the

00:52:19.820 group. There was no group, then there'd be no independence. It's only against the background

00:52:27.440 of community and group that one is independent. So, so then that whole idea of like, well,

00:52:34.440 what's the communication here? And in the book, I kind of dig into and say, in society,

00:52:41.640 how we punish is we exclude. So we cut out, we exclude, we push away. So we do it in relationships

00:52:52.420 too, by the way. It's how we punish in relationships. If we're having an argument, I'm done with this.

00:52:57.700 I'm not going to talk to you anymore. That's the punishment. So I exclude the bomb. I'm shutting

00:53:03.160 it down. I'm taking control. And there's no more communication here because I say so. But the

00:53:09.000 intention is to leave the other person with no voice and alone. And often those people will turn

00:53:15.360 and turn to their friends and say, I need to, you know, but that's the point of seclusion, right?

00:53:21.760 So if you take it to the extreme in society, someone breaks the law, they go to jail. You're the

00:53:27.820 president. You go to the president, you continue to break the law, you're isolated. It's this constant

00:53:33.780 cutting, moving that to the outside of the tribe. Why? Because, you know, back in the day,

00:53:41.160 thousand years ago, if you were kicked out of the tribe, you're dead. You're dead. So isolation, 0.96

00:53:50.820 that's why like in relationship, somebody leaves a relationship and one person wants to continue

00:53:55.640 that relationship. The person who's left there has that experience of like abandonment and

00:54:01.060 vulnerability and being exposed and they hate it and it feels terrible. But that's that kind of

00:54:09.340 primordial experience of being isolated, being left alone. And I know those guys are like, well,

00:54:15.740 I love being alone, but I get that, right? But it's all in the context of the group, right?

00:54:20.280 That's your little bubble of safety. So, so then with the shame and the guilt, you're just,

00:54:26.440 you're basically saying to the group, I'm punishing myself, right? Look at what I'm doing,

00:54:32.260 right? And that's, and it's a big thing if you look at like maybe celebrities or whomever,

00:54:38.600 maybe do something, whether they really mean it or not, and they're apologizing, right? You're like,

00:54:42.820 hmm, I don't think that was a genuine apology because that's what we're looking for. We're looking

00:54:49.700 for the authenticity. Do they really mean it though? Like, let's look at the way they are.

00:54:56.080 And we're, and we're picking up on all those little cues, right? And then the more they are about it,

00:55:01.780 then we're like, okay, you can stay in the group. That's basically what we're saying. You can stay

00:55:07.880 in the group. So if you try on the shame and the guilt, if it's continuing, continuing and continuing,

00:55:14.140 then you got to ask yourself, okay, what am I getting out of this? What does it absolve me of?

00:55:20.520 What is it kind of, you know, what does it get me away with? What is it? You got to look down those

00:55:25.740 avenues to see if there's some, in other words, a payoff for you. If there's some kind of payoff,

00:55:32.880 you'll often see that there's a payoff in it. And it's okay. That's a human thing. And that's what

00:55:38.840 I come back to. It's okay. You're a human, but you know, you're not going to get this right all

00:55:44.580 the time. And if you experience the shame and the guilt, I get that. Okay. And one of the ways you

00:55:51.700 can do is you can clean that up with the people and say, look, I didn't do the best there and I

00:55:56.540 own it and I own all of it. And I'm not going to use excuses for why I did do it or didn't do it,

00:56:01.400 but I own it. And, and I'm, and I'm, and I acknowledge and I'm, and I'm responsible for

00:56:06.780 the impact that it might've had on you. I'll own that too. And then you, you say to them,

00:56:12.020 and if there's anything you want to say about that, if there's anything you want to communicate

00:56:14.400 to me, I want you to know I'm available for you to communicate to me, to talk to me about that.

00:56:19.280 I'm not shutting you down and I'm not going to even try and change the way you feel about it

00:56:25.120 because I, because the way you feel about it, I get that. That's how you feel about it.

00:56:30.340 Now, again, you hear the authenticity, you hear how flat it is. There's no freaking drama in it.

00:56:35.640 There's no big hoo-ha in it. It's just laying it out there and, and being responsible and owning it

00:56:41.800 and realizing, you know, you're not, you're not going to get life right. And you are going to

00:56:49.620 screw some things up. And those are the times when, and I talk about this deeply in this book

00:56:54.600 about the power of blame and what it does to a person and what it does to a family and what it

00:57:00.680 does to a group or a company, you take blame out. You say, okay, I'm not going to blame anybody here.

00:57:08.700 Then where do you turn? What you're left with is, okay, well, there's no juice here. There's no,

00:57:15.560 I'm not blaming anybody. It's just like, it went the way it went. I'm not going to be like,

00:57:19.900 yeah, and you did and then I did and then they did. When there's no blame, there is no shame.

00:57:23.840 There is no guilt. It does. They can't exist together. Shame and guilt require blame.

00:57:33.720 Yeah, that's really powerful. I, you know, I, I want to shift gears and I can't believe how

00:57:38.380 quickly the time has gone. There's a segment in the book that I really like, and it's towards the

00:57:42.820 end. And you talk about the three heirlooms. And I, I think that conversation is so valuable.

00:57:48.660 Uh, we often think about, uh, personally, I think about, you know, how do I leave my financial

00:57:54.140 legacy? Um, is the business that I'm creating this movement, something that can be handed to my

00:57:59.300 children and they can be engaged in it and have a leg up. But when you talk about the three heirlooms,

00:58:04.300 it's completely different than any material gain that we often as fathers think about passing down

00:58:09.700 to our kids. Right. Right. You know, I want my children to know what it is to love another

00:58:15.580 and to express love. I want to know what that is, you know, the, all of it and, and how to continue

00:58:24.200 to return yourself to loving people. Cause sometimes you need to get yourself back there.

00:58:29.100 You can drift away from loving somebody. You need to get yourself back there. That's a massive thing

00:58:33.180 for me. Authenticity is another one, you know, like to get your cards on the table. It's, it's such a

00:58:39.820 massive thing for people. And when you can be authentic with no shame or no guilt, you're fucking 0.99

00:58:44.900 bulletproof. You're bulletproof. You can take it all. That's a robust human being. They can lay it 0.99

00:58:53.100 out there and set it empathetic to how, what I've done or didn't do. It might've impacted other people,

00:58:57.940 but it will not shake me from owning it. Um, and then the last one is forgiveness, which is,

00:59:04.120 it's a tricky one. And I said that in the book, it is a tricky one, but what makes it tricky is you

00:59:10.560 can't get to forgiveness and have your blame. You can't get there. Not unless you're going to go

00:59:16.560 into some kind of self-righteous version of forgiveness, which isn't forgiveness.

00:59:21.540 Forgiveness simply comes down to one thing. I'm no longer going to punish this person.

00:59:26.760 And if you can, if you can create that as an environment at home, you'll, you'll, you'll equip

00:59:35.060 your children in a very powerful way. Taking some notes here. I, I tell the guys, I often joke,

00:59:41.620 like I, I feel a little bit selfish when I have conversations like this, because it seems like

00:59:47.140 they're more for me than anybody else. And I'm the one who gets to ask the questions. Other guys are

00:59:51.560 like, ask this question. I'm like, no, but you're being the guinea pig too. I mean, come on.

00:59:57.360 Yeah. Yeah. No, no. Why would you? Yeah, of course you should.

01:00:03.020 Well, Gary, I appreciate you. I appreciate your work. And, um, ever since you came on,

01:00:07.700 gosh, it's been years ago now, but when you came on and talked about unfuck yourself and

01:00:11.980 your other books, I mean, I I've been a fan and I've been sharing this work because it is so crucial.

01:00:18.240 And also I got to say the way that you communicate it, I think is really relevant to men. Um, it seems to

01:00:23.100 me there's a lot of like woo woo, like feel good spiritual journey type stuff. And I think there's

01:00:30.300 probably a place for that. It just doesn't resonate with me the way you communicate. It really resonates

01:00:35.080 with me. And I know it does with a lot of the guys as well. Awesome. Well, will you let the guys

01:00:40.860 know where to connect with you? Obviously they can pick up a copy of the book, wherever books are sold.

01:00:44.260 It's out today as of the release of this podcast. Um, but where should the men connect with you to learn

01:00:48.580 more, to communicate with you? The book is called grow up and becoming the parent that

01:00:53.080 your kids deserve. And, um, you can connect me at garyjohnbishop.com. I'm on Instagram.

01:00:58.440 I'm on threads. I'm on, I think we're fucking calling it X now X. I'm on X. Um, I have a Facebook

01:01:05.560 page of course. Um, and, and I have, you know, there's still a ton of episodes of the unfuck nation 0.92

01:01:11.640 podcast, which goes into these kinds of topics, you know, like some of the struggles that we have

01:01:16.040 as human beings goes into these subjects in depth. Um, but it's not an interview platform.

01:01:22.680 It's really just me talking about, you know, philosophical issues and how they equate to

01:01:27.960 human beings. So unfuck nation, you can find me there too. We'll sync everything up. I, the term

01:01:33.920 that I was thinking about earlier with the, the child becoming the, the, uh, the, the quasi wife 0.98

01:01:42.040 for her husband is parentification. Yeah. Parentification. That was the term I was looking

01:01:46.360 for earlier. So that makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you and, uh, we'll stay in

01:01:54.720 touch. I never like to dig into psychology cause it's not my thing, but I'll take a dive into that.

01:02:01.320 It is. It's an interesting concept and it's something that's been on my mind. Am I doing

01:02:04.960 that to my children? I certainly don't want to rob them of any childhood opportunities or think

01:02:09.000 they have a greater responsibility for me than they actually do. So it's something on my mind.

01:02:13.160 I'll shoot off. Gary, I appreciate you again. Thanks for joining me today.

01:02:17.200 Awesome. Ryan. Thanks for having me.

01:02:20.480 There you go, gentlemen, my conversation with the one and only Gary John Bishop. I hope that you

01:02:24.700 enjoyed the podcast. If you're a dad or you will be at some point, this information is invaluable.

01:02:31.380 And I know it's a little interesting because we didn't get into the tips and tactics and tricks

01:02:36.580 and hacks on what you should say to your kids or how to deal with difficult conversations.

01:02:41.160 That stuff's already out there. This conversation was more about how to get right with yourself

01:02:47.000 so that you can lead your little ones more effectively. And I found in my own personal

01:02:51.640 life that the less I have my own self dialed in, the harder it is for me to manage the fatherhood role

01:02:57.540 that I play in the lives of my four children. The more that I have that dialed in, the better

01:03:02.160 father I become. So that's crucial. And not only better father, but just better man in general,

01:03:06.300 friend, brother, business owner, you name it. I'm better because I'm getting these things locked in.

01:03:12.480 So I would highly encourage you to pick up a copy of Gary's newest book, grow up.

01:03:16.900 Also check out the iron council. I mentioned that earlier, order a man.com slash iron council.

01:03:21.440 We open up on the 15th. So just a few days here and make sure you connect with me on Instagram

01:03:26.340 and Gary John Bishop on Instagram as well. Tag, just take a screenshot real quick. Tag this on

01:03:32.840 Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, wherever you're doing the thing, tag me, tag Gary and let other

01:03:36.800 men know what you're listening to. All right, guys, those are your marching orders for today.

01:03:40.740 We will be back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action, become the

01:03:47.360 father your kids deserve and be the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of

01:03:53.400 man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life to be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:03:58.660 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - September 12, 2023

GARY JOHN BISHOP ｜ Become the Father Your Kids Deserve

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