Order of Man - GEOFF HOPF ｜ Hard Times Create Strong Men

00:00:00.000 We've all heard the quote, hard times create strong men, strong men create good times,

00:00:04.940 good times create weak men, weak men create hard times. Today I have the author of that quote,

00:00:10.340 Jeff Hoff, on the podcast to talk about what he meant when he penned that phrase. We also talk

00:00:16.080 about moral weakness and lacking skill sets, why masculinity does not need to be redefined,

00:00:22.300 why accepting reality is such a crucial part of men's growth, why all men want to be part of

00:00:27.620 something great. Also the four pillars of survival and overcoming illogical belief systems.

00:00:33.940 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly chart your

00:00:39.160 own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you are not easily

00:00:45.140 deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you

00:00:52.680 will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:02.160 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. My name is Ryan Michler. I am your host,

00:01:06.700 and I'm very grateful that you're here with us today. We've all heard that quote that I alluded

00:01:10.640 to earlier, and I have the first person to ever pen and coin that term. It's probably one of the most

00:01:18.120 shared men's quotes on the internet today, and I'm very excited to be able to get the author of that

00:01:24.120 quote, and the author of other books on this podcast. His name is Jeff Hoff. Before I get into

00:01:29.400 it today, I just want to mention my good friends over at Montana Knife Company. If you don't follow

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00:02:08.400 at checkout to save some money. All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest. His name is Jeff

00:02:13.460 Hoff. He is a best-selling author, celebrated primarily for his post-apocalyptic fiction,

00:02:21.880 particularly his New World series, but before embarking on that writing career, he served for

00:02:27.720 six years in the U.S. Marine Corps as an anti-tank gunner, including deployments during the Gulf War,

00:02:35.400 but following his military service, he pursued some incredible careers, things like commercial diver,

00:02:41.020 executive protection agent, and all of these experiences have deeply influenced his storytelling,

00:02:47.980 which infuses his novels with a lot of intensity and authenticity as well. Beyond his military and

00:02:55.600 writing endeavors, he is an entrepreneur. He's a family man. He founded Property Picks, which is a real

00:02:59.960 estate services company, co-founded Beyond the Fray Publishing, where they focus on paranormal

00:03:05.960 nonfiction. And he's also ventured into children's literature with the book Doggyville. And he's got

00:03:13.820 some incredible insight into not only what it means to be a man, but what it takes to preserve our

00:03:19.760 culture, society, and way of life. Jeff, so good to see you. I was so glad that Nikki and I introduced

00:03:27.900 us. He's been talking you up for probably years at this point. So you've got a good advocate, Nikki.

00:03:33.020 I hope you know that. I'm sure you do. I do. I do. Uh, for firstly, thanks for having me on. I do

00:03:37.640 really, really appreciate it. You've got a great podcast and yeah, I have big shout out to Nikki.

00:03:41.880 He's, uh, I've known God him for years now and he's, he's, he's a good man. Uh, he's a good friend.

00:03:48.220 So a good shout out to him. He's been talking to me over the past, uh, several weeks now at this

00:03:55.440 point about what's going on in Canada and art, are you in Canada or are you an American citizen?

00:04:01.100 I know I'm an American citizen. I'm down in San Diego. Well, that's what I thought because I

00:04:04.580 didn't hear, I didn't hear the, uh, the, uh, the accent. Yeah. The A and the, uh, yeah, I didn't hear

00:04:11.800 any of that, but he's been talking about it and we're on the back of, uh, a very interesting

00:04:17.280 election for our Canadian brothers up North, which honestly, I think is a bit of a travesty. I think

00:04:24.600 Trump probably contributed a lot to, uh, the way that election went, unfortunately, but also they

00:04:30.460 have sovereignty and the ability to make their own decisions and it seems like they made a bad one.

00:04:34.440 We'll see how it goes. Yeah. You know, I forgot who I was listening to. They were just talking about

00:04:39.160 it today as essentially it's like, uh, you know, the Canadians have been suffering under kind of an

00:04:43.160 abusive relationship for a long time from the liberal party. And then, uh, they were, and then along

00:04:50.360 comes Trump and, you know, doing Trump stuff. And I think that kind of galvanized them in some ways,

00:04:57.200 uh, to want to keep that liberal party in, um, but in power, even though, even though I think the

00:05:04.820 other guy wasn't necessarily siding with Trump. I mean, everyone was, I mean, I think everyone was

00:05:09.160 pretty much in lockstep in Canada that they're a sovereign nation that they there's, there's not a

00:05:14.480 chance they're ever going to join the United States, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yet for some reason that

00:05:18.800 really kind of pushed them over to, I think his name's Carney. I think that's who won the prime

00:05:23.800 ministership. So I think that's right. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's politics are interesting. You know,

00:05:28.560 it's, uh, I'm, I, I personally don't have any desire for Canada to be our 51st state. Um, I, I'm quite

00:05:36.440 happy with our relationship and, uh, I do think they're good allies. Uh, you know, clearly from a

00:05:41.480 political standpoint, could there maybe be some better trade stuff going on? Of course. But, you know,

00:05:47.060 Trump is Trump. Trump's doing Trump stuff. So he has his way of negotiating. I mean,

00:05:52.960 we'll see if it all works out in the end. I think these things are, uh, I mean, it's good God, man.

00:05:57.160 It's like, he's been in office with three months, three and a half months. It feels like three years

00:06:01.640 already. A hundred days. Yeah, it does. It does. The speed at which he operates is pretty interesting

00:06:06.680 for sure. It's so much going on. I think it is pretty indicative of what a lot of people may,

00:06:14.580 may or may not know you for, which is the, um, the hard times create strong men quote.

00:06:19.940 Yeah. And that, that is your quote. And what is interesting to me is it is probably the least

00:06:28.160 attributed quote that I've ever seen. I don't know how, how you feel about that or if you would agree

00:06:34.460 with that. Uh, well, it seems like it just popped up out of thin air and, but, but that's,

00:06:39.460 those are your words. Yeah. So I, uh, well, let's just kind of, just kind of touch on that. The, um,

00:06:45.720 the sentiment kind of that, that the quote represents is, is timeless. You know, that's

00:06:50.080 this concept where generations will look at the younger generation and think that they're weaker

00:06:53.780 than they are. You know, we always do that. Even us. And we just, we just look at, oh, you don't,

00:06:58.080 you didn't have it as bad as I did. As you get older, that's just kind of like,

00:07:01.020 you didn't have to walk uphill in the snow, both ways to school kind of thing.

00:07:04.700 Right. It's just kind of this meme it's kind of become, but that's just kind of really how

00:07:07.840 generations deal with other generations. We look at the other ones as weaker, not as capable,

00:07:13.780 uh, soft, things like that. So the sentiment actually goes way back even to like medieval

00:07:19.860 to Plato essentially kind of talked about generations, generations competing with each other

00:07:24.580 and one generation thinking the younger generation's not capable, et cetera, et cetera. There was a,

00:07:29.920 uh, a, a middle Eastern, uh, uh, historian by the name of Ibn Khaldun that essentially referenced,

00:07:36.880 you know, kind of had a generational theory. And so the quote itself is essentially a, a boiled down

00:07:42.980 basic concept of generational theory. And, uh, I know before we jumped on, uh, on the air here,

00:07:51.200 we were talking about Strauss and how generational theory, and really that's all it does. It's kind

00:07:57.140 of just, it takes, it takes Ibn Khaldun's kind of concepts. He had like five cycles. You got

00:08:02.600 Strauss and how's generation, uh, generational theory, which has four, uh, cycles that kind

00:08:07.880 of go through with generations. Um, you kind of, where you get like a rise and then a peak

00:08:12.960 of civilization and then a collapse of civilization, and then it repeats itself again. Um, so essentially

00:08:19.240 you're taking that, I mean, you look at the quote, essentially just distills all of that

00:08:22.520 down into the very basic premise. Um, there, there were other people citing things that have

00:08:28.880 similarities to it over the years. And so like it, yes, it, it gets attributed and I, I, it's now

00:08:37.040 become, for all the people that like the quote, I've gotten a tremendous amount of like hate for it.

00:08:45.360 It's fascinating and it's become very politically divisive, um, for people that's, that are on,

00:08:52.080 okay, I guess kind of left of center, but it's not even that it's like, it's tends to be more of the

00:08:56.880 far left politically. Look at the quote and think it's somehow tied to some kind of white supremacy,

00:09:03.060 male misogynist kind of, uh, philosophy when it has nothing to kind of, to even, even do with that

00:09:12.840 at all. Again, it's, it's looking at generations and it does look at how, and again, this is timeless

00:09:20.200 as far as when you look at generations as at, and as a civilization matures, becomes more wealthy,

00:09:25.860 uh, the people that are the beneficiaries of the founders or the people that worked hard

00:09:32.300 just tend to kind of forget or have some kind of a societal amnesia. And they start to have disdain

00:09:40.320 for where they came from, for what they stand for. Um, and that essentially becomes kind of the weak

00:09:46.040 man in a lot of ways, you know, and when, and when, and that's, and when people like, I think of

00:09:52.940 the guy who was from Axios or I can't remember where he was, he, he's trying to tie me to some kind of

00:09:59.580 Nazi far right stuff too. It's like, it's, it's like the whole thing took on this whole kind of,

00:10:05.220 it was like after the 2020 election, this whole thing became, it's just blew up. And again,

00:10:10.980 there were some people, I think they're on the right conservative Republicans that kind of liked

00:10:15.500 the quote. It's pretty cool. I think. Um, and I don't, I don't see any issue with it, but it's

00:10:21.260 apparently a lot of people did. And they thought I was like talking against women and things like

00:10:26.060 that. And in reality, the, the man part can be even defined as mankind. Yeah, exactly.

00:10:33.160 You've said that before. I've heard you say that for sure. Yeah. And it's like the, the people it's

00:10:38.340 so fascinating. And when I, when I get into, uh, my writing, all, a lot, a lot, a lot of the

00:10:44.520 apocalyptic books that I've done and the, in the Westerns and so forth, I touch on specifically in

00:10:50.380 the, in the apocalyptic, uh, content. It's more about not the event itself, not the apocalyptic

00:10:55.960 event. It's about how individuals are dealing with that event and the human condition. And it's so

00:11:01.720 fascinating. I've been so focused on that in my writing that when that came out of those who

00:11:06.240 remain and that became kind of part of this zeitgeist culture and how people reacted to it

00:11:12.540 was fascinating. Just like incredibly fascinating. Like on, I think it's Reddit. Is it Reddit?

00:11:20.560 Yeah. Reddit. I mean, there's whole blogs on there. People like wishing me dead. Like I should

00:11:25.680 die. I mean, that's the bane of society at this point. I'm some Nazi. It's crazy, man. And so,

00:11:32.040 but I think when you look at what the quote means, if you really take that deep dive into generational

00:11:39.960 theory, uh, the fourth turning, we were talking about that you can see where we kind of are on this

00:11:47.620 path. And you wonder if that this generational theory is actually has some facts or it's true

00:11:55.660 or that it, we're about to experience it because we definitely seem to be on the cusp of some kind

00:12:01.020 of a fourth turning, some kind of a collapse where they call it chaos. That's what Strauss and

00:12:05.420 house called it. They called it the chaos, degeneration and the fourth turning. It's that,

00:12:10.260 that, that turning is called chaos and that's, or crisis chaos turns into crisis. We're in the crisis

00:12:16.060 phase.

00:12:16.500 Well, I think that's probably true. You know, I've got so many, I'm taking notes here as we're

00:12:22.060 talking about this, but I saw a meme and I've, and I'm sure you've seen it as well. And people

00:12:27.500 will post a picture of a stick and the caption is here's a stick to prove that people will argue

00:12:32.260 about anything, you know? So there's that, there's that aspect of it, but then there's also the aspect

00:12:37.460 that people like to label and compartmentalize. If I can take you in that quote and compartmentalize

00:12:44.280 you into this right wing ultra mega Nazi camp, then I don't have to, to employ any sort of critical

00:12:54.680 thinking. And maybe what I'm saying next will fall into the same camp. But I believe that the far

00:13:02.740 left, not to be confused with liberalism, because I think there is some merit to some of those concepts

00:13:08.280 if executed correctly. But I'd go so far to say is that the far left, when they look at a quote like

00:13:15.960 that and they get angry, it's projection. It's self-reflection. It's, they know they're weak

00:13:23.680 deep down inside. They know they're cowardly. They know they won't stand up for truth. They know they

00:13:28.680 won't stand up for what is right. Um, they, they manipulate and they distort and they coerce and

00:13:34.680 they bully in order to achieve some sort of weird worldview that they have. And maybe I'm guilty of

00:13:42.900 the same thing here. But to me, when somebody reads a quote like that, it's, it's projection.

00:13:50.500 Like there's, there's no reason to be angry about a quote like that. It's, it's, it should be

00:13:55.720 self-reflective. It should be, okay, well, which generation are we or where are we and how can we

00:14:00.380 improve regardless of what side of the political aisle you sit on? I, I think, I think you're

00:14:05.880 absolutely right in that. I do think there is some self-reflection. Therefore they're projecting

00:14:09.840 out because they, they, they might essentially, they're, they're essentially assigning themselves

00:14:15.800 as the weak person. That's why they're getting very upset about it. They're taking it upon

00:14:19.840 themselves. Which is interesting. Like, wow, they're already like, Hey, I'm the weak guy over

00:14:23.320 here. That's why I'm so pissed off. And it's like, okay, there's also this part when you look at the

00:14:28.100 far and it's the far left. Cause you know, when you look at, I mean, I, anyone who's fair-minded

00:14:32.860 who isn't necessarily tied lockstep with any kind of political movement, like part of the, a team

00:14:38.020 politics, a lot of people have tribalism. Yeah. A lot of people have views that kind of on a spectrum

00:14:43.680 in a lot of ways, they'll have views that maybe are kind of a little bit left to center, you know,

00:14:47.900 or a little bit right, or maybe far right. It just depends. Like if you look based on each individual

00:14:52.140 issue and how it affects your life, most people do tend to be on kind of a spectrum. Then this

00:14:57.920 tends to really only upset that people are on the far left. Like we're talking to fringe element,

00:15:04.200 you know, we can go into a conversation about how much of that represents like that specific

00:15:08.440 party today, the democratic party. I think there's, they've been kind of hijacked in some regards,

00:15:12.980 but that's another conversation. But I also think that they get upset about it because,

00:15:17.140 because when they look at it and if people took it seriously and were concerned that we're at this

00:15:25.360 crisis point, that inflection point in society, that people go, Oh my God, we need to stop that.

00:15:32.640 We don't, we don't want to collapse. We need to fix this. And I don't think that some of the elements

00:15:37.260 in that, that fringe want a collapse. They don't like our Republic. They don't like our system.

00:15:43.980 A lot of them are Bolsheviks, really. They're communists and they don't like our market system.

00:15:49.500 They don't like our constitutional Republic. And I think they would like to see that all destroyed.

00:15:53.780 They don't want anything that would say, Hey, strong men need to stand up again and protect

00:15:58.520 what we have. So we can have a nation state, a market system for our children and our children's

00:16:06.100 children. We need to protect that and keep that safe. And so while it's one, I think you're right.

00:16:10.760 They're projecting. I think two, they also don't want to do anything to stop them from their ultimate

00:16:16.980 goal of destruction. I think the far left is a insanely self-destructive death cult. In some

00:16:25.820 ways they're just hardcore and communists really. I mean, I have such a hard time wrapping my head

00:16:34.620 around it. I was talking with a friend about some things I was having a hard time understanding.

00:16:39.340 And what they said to me is, well, you don't believe that way. And so it's hard for you to wrap

00:16:42.900 your head around it. And I'm a pretty black and white kind of guy. That's maybe one of my

00:16:47.340 cognitive distortions on the worst end of things is that I tend to fall into black and white thinking,

00:16:53.780 catastrophize all or nothing. So I'm aware of that for sure. But my question is, you know,

00:16:59.900 what is the problem against what I see as law and order, free market societies based on,

00:17:09.800 you know, voluntary exchange, for example, low regulation and taxation, elected representatives.

00:17:17.100 I don't understand what, what is the issue here? I really cannot wrap my head around why

00:17:23.220 anyone, unless you're in power, would advocate for that. Why, why wouldn't you advocate for those

00:17:29.640 things? I think there's a couple of things. That's a great question. By the way, I had the same

00:17:33.740 thing. I scratched my head because I think we're rational, reasonable people. And I think that like

00:17:41.140 Elon Musk mentions the hive, you know, the mind virus. And I think they've been captured by part

00:17:47.300 of that. I think that they are absolutely in this, like, vicious circle, are kind of like spiraling in

00:17:55.400 some ways. And it's, this will sound harsh, but, and this isn't like people that are like liberal,

00:18:02.520 classically liberal people. Cause what's, what's fascinating. That's a different group of people.

00:18:08.480 Totally. Cause you look at like, if you look at like, say the classical Democrat, for instance,

00:18:12.420 from like the 1990s, even to early two thousands and so forth, they're still capitalistic free market

00:18:18.600 people that believe in the Republic and the rule of law and all of that. It's, it's, it's like you

00:18:24.580 had this element on the far left that really kind of was born. The genesis of it was in college, college

00:18:30.120 campuses. And then you also have the birth of the internet. So then you have this, this ability for

00:18:35.080 that mind viruses to spread everywhere. And because if you look at their belief systems, they're not

00:18:42.940 logical. They're ill, it's illogical actually. You look at some of the politics that's happening now

00:18:48.480 with just like the deportation of just illegal immigrants. And you, you're looking at what

00:18:53.840 they're, what, you know, how they're, they're siding with a guy who's an MS-13 guy. It's like,

00:18:58.740 what? I don't, it's, you do, you scratch your head. It's like, what? I don't understand what's

00:19:02.460 happening here at like, this is, I mean, I think they're, they're hurting themselves. They're taking

00:19:07.680 what they call the 80, 20 issues and they keep siding with the 20%. And, and for what, like, I,

00:19:12.920 what are they getting out of aligning themselves with a known terrorist? Like it's, I don't get

00:19:21.600 it. It's like, it's insane. It's like, they're living in another reality now. And this is where

00:19:27.840 I think is a negative aspect of the internet and social media is it's created that hive mind.

00:19:33.920 And at the same time, you can go on there and you can curate whatever content you want to see.

00:19:41.960 And so they literally have their own truth. They look at stuff and they just believe,

00:19:47.060 by the way, the right does, the right can do that too, by the way, the right can get on there and

00:19:50.940 they'll, they'll say certain things. And I was like, is that really true about that person? And then

00:19:56.440 when you really look, it's not. So you get some of that where that's, that's distortion or even just

00:20:01.980 be a fake news that feeds even the right too. And the right kind of goes down that road.

00:20:08.340 And so there's kind of this hard, it's really hard. It's almost like three truths in some ways.

00:20:13.200 You have like, what's on the far left and you have what's on the far right. And then you have

00:20:16.820 the rest of us looking at each side going, what the hell is going on? Um, I, I, I don't know how we

00:20:24.040 deal with this guy. I'm going to tie this back into generational theory and why I think Strauss

00:20:31.040 somehow and, and Khaldun and all these people over the years and centuries were correct. And

00:20:37.520 we are in a crisis, I believe right now, we have essentially two cultures that exist right now,

00:20:46.840 two distinct cultures that have two different value systems and belief systems.

00:20:51.540 Their value systems and belief systems even come down to the system of government that they want.

00:20:55.780 And they have a lot of power and they have the media as a bullhorn that trumpets and parrots all

00:21:05.040 their nonsense. And so you cannot have a nation state stay together when you have two distinct

00:21:14.620 cultures that are fighting for the heart of it. You look at the, the, the American civil war,

00:21:21.100 that's what you had. You had two distinct cultures. You had the culture that was in the North that was

00:21:26.060 more abolitionist. And he had the culture in the South that was, uh, that, that had a, that was a,

00:21:32.360 a agricultural kind of, uh, society, uh, that did rely on slavery to do, you know, for that.

00:21:39.480 Uh, now most Southerners didn't have slaves, but still it was just a completely different culture,

00:21:44.480 way different than the Northern culture. And so the belief systems and how they just dealt with

00:21:49.020 things and how they believed became so different that they looked at each other as enemies. And

00:21:54.760 then you had the spark with the, which was the, the election of Lincoln. And so I think we're kind

00:21:59.960 of at that crossroads. We have two distinct cultures that want to buy for power in this nation. And so

00:22:07.060 I don't see how we get out of it without some kind of, some kind of conflict personally.

00:22:14.840 Violence. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's like, I was, I can't remember what I was looking at, uh, earlier today.

00:22:21.360 I don't know if it was when I was doing a little research for this conversation or something else that I saw

00:22:26.060 in the end result is always violence. And whoever wins a physical or violent confrontation

00:22:31.720 dictates the way the culture goes until there's, Oh, you know what it was? It was, um,

00:22:39.160 gosh, what, what I'm trying to think what it was. Oh, it was a friend of mine. It's going back to

00:22:45.320 what we started with, uh, with the, the election results in Canada. And I said, look, until, until

00:22:51.920 the people get agitated enough. And I think agitated is the right word to use until the people get

00:22:56.840 agitated enough, nothing will change. And agitation, unfortunately, and I'm not even calling for this

00:23:03.400 by the way, but unfortunately agitation often leads to physical confrontation. And once it becomes

00:23:11.280 physical, then that's where we begin to change the tide of the culture or lose culture or, you know,

00:23:20.320 whoever wins wins. And I hate to say that, but to me, that is the reality of human history.

00:23:28.140 Yeah. What's, what's disturbing about where we're heading and you're, you're, you're a hundred percent

00:23:34.220 right. Right. And is that you're, there's actually three players in this. You have the left, you have

00:23:40.500 the right, and then you have the government. So our government today is not like the government of

00:23:47.280 Lincoln. Right. You know, so I'm talking, if you were like doing a comparison with, uh, a civil war

00:23:52.460 type of that that occurs, uh, where I think there's three different entities here that are at play.

00:23:58.460 And I think the government, there are elements with inside the government, call them the deep state

00:24:02.420 of whatever you want, the bureaucracy, whatever they are. They wouldn't, they probably wouldn't mind

00:24:09.220 a little bit of bloodshed, a little bit of reason to create laws that,

00:24:15.360 ed hamper civil liberties, be the savior. Yes, exactly. And then they can come in and take care

00:24:22.600 of things, kind of be the referee to get in the middle. And, but in order to keep us safe,

00:24:28.560 they need to do more monitoring the internet. I mean, you can see where this can go, you know,

00:24:33.640 where we have to, you know, there was this one attack was financed by this. And so banking has to

00:24:39.120 change now and we're going to have a digital currency. You can see where a, a, I mean, the Patriot

00:24:44.020 act was a great example. It would be like a Patriot act on steroids. And I think that they

00:24:49.300 actually might be the ultimate victor out of anything that happens. If there is an, if there

00:24:54.580 is some kind of a, another American civil war, I think they would be the ones that be the ultimate

00:25:00.740 victor. And I'm sure somewhere think tanks have already plotted this out somewhere. They've already

00:25:05.780 war game, this whole thing. And there, and Bellamy, they would protect themselves anyway,

00:25:11.780 COG, it's continuity of government. They would make sure that they are protected no matter what,

00:25:16.980 what would happen. Um, but we're already seeing kind of low level, low tier violence right now.

00:25:23.060 You see it just, just even when you look at, you started seeing it in 2020, you know,

00:25:29.060 people attacking, you know, Trump supporters, things like that. Just, just respectful. You see

00:25:34.660 it, um, even just with the attacks on Teslas and Tesla drivers and like that is textbook terrorism.

00:25:42.500 That's a hundred percent terrorism. You're going and just lighting up dealerships and

00:25:46.500 firebombing cars and assaulting innocent drivers. You drive a certain brand. It's insane.

00:25:53.140 Well, even, uh, Luigi Mangione or whatever, however you pronounce his name, same concept.

00:25:58.900 And how many people are actually championing him as a hero, as a, as a Robin hood figure for killing

00:26:06.900 an innocent man who had a family, who had a life, who had, who's probably by all accounts,

00:26:15.620 trying to do right and be a good person. And, and he's Luigi is hailed as, as a martyr.

00:26:22.740 Yeah. To a lot of these individuals, some heroic figure, some Christ-like figure to these people.

00:26:28.020 Well, they dehumanize people. That's that, this is where it's, this is where we're very close to

00:26:32.020 the tipping point. There was a book I read years ago. You might've read it. Cause you're in the

00:26:35.460 military. It was called on killing. And it talked about, yes. By David Grossman. Yes. And it talked

00:26:40.260 about the programming, you know, how you get young men like us to go kill, you dehumanize the opponent.

00:26:46.820 You make them, you can come up with all the silhouettes, crowd. I mean, all these kind of

00:26:51.140 these subhuman names we give the enemy. And then you don't look at them as they're,

00:26:56.820 they're not our equal. They're not fathers. They're not sons. They're not uncles. They're

00:27:01.060 just whatever, whatever we want to call them, whatever disparaging name they're scum. So it's

00:27:06.340 easier to kill. So I think that's what's happened now. So the, and you, again, I think there are some

00:27:12.580 elements on the right that's starting to do this kind of shit too. And I think they need to stop,

00:27:16.580 but you see it really prominently on the left. There are the ones that are really

00:27:21.460 taking the direct action. And you see that perfectly illustrated with what happened to that,

00:27:27.540 that healthcare CEO. Like he's subhuman. Now it's okay to kill people like that. Like what,

00:27:32.580 what is happening? And there's this not enough public outrage. I think people are so distracted,

00:27:39.380 like cats in the red dot. They're like, yeah, going back to what you're saying about Canada,

00:27:44.020 that's a good point. Thomas Jefferson wrote about it in the declaration of independence,

00:27:48.500 where he, he, he, he mentioned, I'm paraphrasing this. Um, essentially, you know, people will,

00:27:55.060 will deal with things up to a point. Essentially we will deal with like something until it becomes

00:28:01.220 unsufferable. And I'm, I'm butchering it right now, but it's right out of the declaration of

00:28:05.140 independence. And in that show, he says, what you said, he's like, we will deal, we will suffer

00:28:10.180 to a point and then we're done. And then we're done. And then once the civilian population

00:28:18.580 comes unglued, it's hard to put that back together. It really is.

00:28:25.060 Gentlemen, just going to step away from the conversation very briefly. Uh, we're coming

00:28:28.660 out with a new program or a course, it's probably better, a course called divorce, not death,

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00:28:48.740 we're going to teach you what to do in the first 24 hours to week. Uh, all of the intricacies of

00:28:55.940 the legal process and the team you'll want to hire the things that you should do and absolutely not do

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00:29:14.340 the details and put yourself on a waiting list to reclaim you, yourself, your life,

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00:29:38.260 Again, go to divorce, not death.com get signed up. We'll let you know when we open up in June.

00:29:43.620 Again, divorce, not death.com. All right, let's get back to it. Jeff.

00:29:47.380 There's a, uh, there's a book and I can't remember it. A good friend of mine, Matthew Arrington

00:29:54.100 suggested this book and, and because of your work in, in, uh, in, in fiction and the post-apocalyptic

00:30:01.220 genre, you might know what it is, but it seems like he was talking about a fictional work

00:30:08.900 that was based on some, some, some elements of truth behind it. And it was, it was a South

00:30:16.580 American country and it explained how quickly societies will devolve and collapse once one

00:30:24.340 minor thing goes wrong. You know, for example, if we lose power, it's going to be chaos.

00:30:30.580 Dude, we're not, I mean, it, yeah, we're nine, we're, it was nine miles away from society collapsing,

00:30:36.140 nine miles collapsing. Yeah. And I don't think that's hyperbole. Like people will kill each other

00:30:42.960 and do horrific things, rape and violence and murder and theft. And God knows what else

00:30:51.900 because power goes out. That scares me actually. And what's interesting, this is why when I've,

00:30:58.460 when I started writing the books the years ago, I really, I was like, I really took a lot of,

00:31:05.360 I did a lot of research, but also it was like, I want to understand the psychology behind why do

00:31:10.360 people do the things that they do? And if you look at, there never has to be an apocalyptic event.

00:31:16.540 So think about this. If all the lights go out and everyone works together and coordinates and

00:31:21.840 collaborates, there's no apocalypse, right? I, I mean, you can have bad shit happen and everyone

00:31:28.980 comes together and we work together as a society. We just deal with the problem and we move on.

00:31:34.340 And that's it. We, we suffer a little bit and whatever, then we move on.

00:31:39.180 What the weakness, this is goes back to the quote, the weakness that it shows is when you have an

00:31:44.400 event that says a power outage and it, and it's, and if it's extended, that's when the shit really

00:31:50.800 hits the fan. You extend that out. What it does is exposes the weakness in, in certain individuals.

00:31:58.220 They don't have, and they know it in their heart. They do not have the skillsets,

00:32:03.440 the knowledge to survive something. They don't have, they become like, like man and whip, like

00:32:13.340 they're like children. They're older, but they're just children. They don't know how to just suck it

00:32:17.360 up and deal with shit. It's Lord of the flies. Yeah. It is. But they're, but you're, you're

00:32:21.940 talking about 30 some year old children. Like you and I, the power goes out. We just deal with it.

00:32:27.060 And more than likely you've probably prepared. Like I am. I just have stuff prepared. I'm ready

00:32:31.520 to go. The lights turn out. It's my responsibility as a man to protect my family. And that's what I do.

00:32:35.820 That's part of it. It's an insurance policy, but it shows how many people aren't prepared

00:32:41.080 and they know they're not prepared. That's, that's why they freak out and they go, Oh my God,

00:32:47.300 the power's not coming back on. Then the panic sets in. And then that panic turns to violence,

00:32:54.240 turns to bloodletting. And then everything just goes crazy. Well, you know, like when I wrote my

00:33:00.160 first book, the end, it's about a super EMP, right? And that essentially just cripples. It just shuts

00:33:06.520 down the grid, cripples all electronic devices. And we just pretty much go back to the stone

00:33:11.020 age, but you go back, you go back to the stone age, but with an entire population that doesn't

00:33:16.340 have a skillset to survive. They don't know how to guard. They don't have a garden. They don't

00:33:21.480 know how to like, like harvest anything. They don't know how to do anything with livestock. They

00:33:25.460 don't know how to hunt. They don't, most of them don't even have guns. They don't have anything.

00:33:29.520 And so you turn the power off and they turn on themselves instantly and the government knows

00:33:36.580 about it. So when you, um, they did, it was a 2003 when I was doing the research for the first

00:33:42.120 book, there's a, there was a EMP commission that was put together by Bush back then. And they're

00:33:47.500 first analyzing what they should do and they're war gaming it and things like that. But it came

00:33:52.580 down to the whole thing. Like, well, there's a, there were some talking that 90% of the American

00:33:58.100 population. If you had a total continental wide grid collapse that was extended for a year,

00:34:05.780 90% of the American population or North American population would die.

00:34:10.740 Oh, that's, that's super conservative. It would 99% would die within 90 days.

00:34:17.340 Yeah. You see, and they're dying from initially you have just, you admit, initially the deaths are

00:34:22.840 in the hundreds of thousands. If you had like an EMP type of attack or a CME, you've got like

00:34:27.880 airplanes falling out of the sky. You have just like people in the hospital that are on machines,

00:34:32.200 those kinds of things, people that need critical care. Those are the people that go fast. And then,

00:34:37.180 then you get the dehydration that goes out some weeks and then you get starvation that gets pushed

00:34:41.920 out a little bit further. Then you get the violence that's all happening. And yeah, it just,

00:34:46.200 it doesn't take long. You know what the government does? The government hunkers down in bunkers.

00:34:50.760 And this is what they've stated in there. They just leave. They just exit.

00:34:56.780 And let everyone then take care of themselves. Continuity of government. What's that?

00:35:04.440 I said off of our money. Yeah.

00:35:06.440 We've gone to their bunkers. And was it Green Bar, West Virginia, or, you know,

00:35:11.160 Cheyenne mountain or wherever they have these other bunkers. Um, and they just take care of

00:35:15.620 themselves. That's all. That's, that's their a hundred percent plan. If anything happens on that

00:35:20.120 kind of a scale there, they'll disappear, but you're not going to see them anywhere.

00:35:26.140 I think this is why it's so crucial that you and I and other people, other men are doing this work

00:35:31.160 because not only are we trying to acquire the skills, but we're trying to teach other men.

00:35:34.920 And, and I made a post or a Facebook group a couple of weeks ago about why every man ought to know,

00:35:41.960 ought to own a firearm and know how to use it. And the amount of backlash that I received

00:35:47.760 because I said, you should own a firearm. And most of it was centered around, it doesn't make you a man.

00:35:55.620 And, uh, you know, the likelihood of you needing a firearm, which I agree with today, the likelihood

00:36:02.640 of me needing to use my P365 is infinitesimal small. Like I probably won't. And I'm glad I'm

00:36:11.160 grateful. I'm really glad I won't have to use that today in all likelihood, but wouldn't I want to

00:36:17.220 know how to use it? Wouldn't I want the tool available? And it doesn't actually take away anything

00:36:22.920 from my life. It doesn't detract. It doesn't distract. It doesn't make my life harder in any

00:36:28.660 way. It's just a tool and a skill that might be that, like you said, insurance policy earlier.

00:36:35.780 That's what all those things are. They're insurance policies. To think that something won't happen

00:36:40.680 is a big bet. You're at the poker table with a shitty hand and you're going all in it. Like I've had

00:36:49.260 two, we had one incidents. We were living in Idaho. Some guy, some guy decided to go full retard and

00:36:57.260 try to get at my wife when he was already trying to get at my mother-in-law. Anyway, long story short,

00:37:02.660 you guys were in public or no, no, we were at our home in Idaho. Like we lived outside of McCall

00:37:08.080 and, uh, this guy tried to break into like snow and he was drunk. It turns out he was drunk and,

00:37:12.180 and decided he was going to try to get some action. And he tried to like, he, he was, he was,

00:37:18.520 we first spotted him over at my mother-in-law's house or she saw him. And like when the lights

00:37:22.280 come on with the sensor, then he kind of ran away. But what he did, he's ran away and he came across,

00:37:26.820 we lived on his golf course, came across his golf course in post hole and through like four feet of

00:37:31.040 snow. And then, so my mother-in-law, I jumped in the truck and I drive over there to see if I can find

00:37:36.480 him. And next thing I know, I get the call. He's at my house. He literally crossed all the way over

00:37:42.700 this fairway. And, uh, my wife, my, my oldest daughter was just a baby then. And of course,

00:37:48.380 thank God she had a gun. She went, she got a pistol. He tried to get in the, she saw him in

00:37:52.080 the backyard. He, as soon as they locked eyes, he ran for the slider to try to get in. And so she had

00:37:59.420 a gun and she like, she took shelter and then I showed up and then the dude didn't even run away.

00:38:03.780 So I go out there and I opened the door and he was hiding around the corner, like hammered.

00:38:07.980 And, uh, then he just took off run and sheriffs ended up picking up later. But what if I had to

00:38:13.240 use it? So I was armed and, uh, like, how would I felt if I didn't have that? If I didn't have the

00:38:20.740 means to protect or my wife didn't have it, she had, she had a revolver on her. Like it's so,

00:38:25.960 Oh, you should feel like a piece of shit at, at minimum. I'm, I'm, I'm sorry to say that,

00:38:30.400 but you should definitely feel like a failure. That's your job. And it's like, it is,

00:38:35.160 it's just a tool. Like, why would you not want to equip yourself and your family with the means

00:38:39.560 of protection? And then again, that only happened once, but it happened in relatively safe Idaho.

00:38:45.460 Some drunk guy decided he was going to get frisky. I think he, that guy was clearly up to no good,

00:38:50.840 but he was a bad dude. Like, Hey, there you go. Like, and I, you know, what if he had gained

00:38:58.840 access? My wife would have had to put him down. I know she would have, but she had our, my, my,

00:39:04.520 our baby at the same time, this guy didn't give a shit. And so it's like, those things can happen.

00:39:10.740 And why would you not want the means to like, to ensure that you don't have to have sleepless nights

00:39:16.580 for the rest of your life because you didn't prepare. And now something happened to your wife

00:39:20.800 and your child. It's crazy to me. I don't, I don't, I don't get that thinking. I don't go there.

00:39:24.800 Like I always in a constant state of like, okay, I make sure I have all these things. Like when

00:39:30.940 COVID first hit, I just closed the door. We're all prepared. Right. So do you need anything? I was

00:39:35.020 like, Nope, we're good. I'm good. We're going to hang out 15 days to slow the spread. It's just fine.

00:39:40.380 I can deal with that. Totally. Two days in, you realize what was all going on, but you can deal

00:39:44.080 with it. She told me, she was like, thank, I mean, she goes, I'm so grateful for you. I'm so grateful

00:39:49.900 that you think of those things that you took care of us, you know, from a man's perspective,

00:39:55.120 it just makes you feel great. That's what we're supposed to do as men. We're supposed to be

00:40:01.100 protectors and we're supposed to think like that. And she is jet was so just like, I'm so, I'm so

00:40:08.520 grateful for you. You know, the other thing I think it does too, is it gives us men a sense of

00:40:13.960 purpose. You know, there, I mean, we can, we can go into the depression rates and suicide rates and

00:40:18.440 anxiety rates and we can look at fatherless homes. We can look at incarceration rates. We can look at

00:40:23.300 drug abuse and, and alcohol addiction. We can look at all of that and we can see how, how really

00:40:28.520 desperate men are generally right now relative to other times in life. And I think this goes to the

00:40:33.320 quote that you coined about the hard times and weak times and weak men and strong men. Um, but it

00:40:39.240 gives us a sense of purpose and direction. Like this is what I'm supposed to do. You know, last night

00:40:43.500 I had a funny story actually last night, I have a pistol box on my nightstand and I put my pistol

00:40:49.420 in the pistol box unless I'm, you know, carrying it. And at night I take it out of the pistol box

00:40:55.180 and I have this little magnetic thing that I screwed to the side of my nightstand. And every night I take

00:41:00.500 my, my firearm out of my pistol box and I put it on that magnetic little strip so that if I need my

00:41:06.460 pistol, I can get it quick. I don't want to put in a code at 2am where I'm a little delirious

00:41:11.320 because I'm trying to wake up. So last night I'm laying in bed and I hear this noise and I wake

00:41:16.000 up and I grab my pistol. I'm like, what is that noise? It was my printer, which is in my room.

00:41:23.820 And it was my printer that for whatever reason decided it was going to pick up signal

00:41:27.640 and print a project from early in the afternoon that I had trouble printing at, you know, three or

00:41:34.200 four in the afternoon. And I grabbed my pistol and I'm like, what is that noise? And I got out of bed

00:41:38.520 and realized, Oh, it's just, it's just my printer. And you know, I put my thing away.

00:41:43.980 Obviously it's a different scenario than what you're talking about, but the fact that I could

00:41:47.680 react that quickly and had the skillset, the knowledge and the ability to react. If it had

00:41:54.740 been somebody trying to break into my daughter's room or come in the back door or, you know, any number

00:42:02.100 of things that could have happened was a sense of relief. And I could put my pistol back and realize,

00:42:06.440 okay, we're safe. I got this. I'm here. The house is protected. Everybody's safe.

00:42:12.680 Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, it was good training, wasn't it?

00:42:18.440 It was, it was actually a little jarring because my reaction time left something to be desired.

00:42:25.040 And I thought to myself, I think I'm prepared, but I don't know how prepared I am. Even though I'm

00:42:31.820 probably more prepared than 99% of people out there, I was still slower than I would have liked

00:42:36.540 to have been. Well, then was it Jocko say good. What that means? Okay, good. All right. I need to

00:42:42.480 work on something. That's good. I can be better now. Good. It's a mindset thing. Okay, good. I can be

00:42:47.160 better now. Uh, yeah, I, I, I think going back to the concept of purpose, um, I know there's a lot of

00:42:56.900 talk of trying to redefine masculinity and all these things in the modern era. And, you know,

00:43:02.960 we still, without a doubt, have barbarians at the gates. They're out there, um, to just think that

00:43:12.260 we no longer have to have strong men, trained men, lethal men, violent men, um, is nonsense.

00:43:22.060 Yes. And I, I, I'm with you. I think, uh, every man should have a gun. I think every man should

00:43:29.520 have training. I think every man should have training. And even in some type of martial arts

00:43:33.740 in some regard, you don't have to be black belts, but have some ability to be able to handle

00:43:37.840 themselves in a fight, whatever that is. I even think this there's, it's dismal when you look at

00:43:43.180 fitness levels too. Uh, you know, I, I, I, I have a, uh, uh, I have kind of a low opinion of when

00:43:53.540 people let themselves go too much. I'm like, come on, man, you can't do that. Like you got to,

00:44:00.200 cause what, what if you don't have access, you know, I got a gun. Well, what do you have to roll

00:44:04.140 around for about five minutes on the ground with somebody that you know, you know, you know how taxing

00:44:09.080 that is just roll around for one minute straight with somebody. You're going to be gassed. And I'm

00:44:14.940 not saying you got to run around with, uh, uh, yeah, so I, I'll, I'll say it. I'll cut it to this.

00:44:20.300 I I've, I've had it and I've talked about it before in preparedness. I look at it like that,

00:44:24.460 the four pillars of survival. And, uh, you've got, you know, you got resources, you got skillset,

00:44:31.420 you have mindset, mindsets, it's overlooked a lot. Got to have the mindset to be able to act,

00:44:36.000 but then fitness, fitness is something that gets overlooked so often. And they go, well,

00:44:42.740 I got the gun. I'll be fine. Like, well, you may not have the gun or it might get taken away from

00:44:46.160 you. Now you got to handle yourself physically. You have to have the physicality to carry out

00:44:51.960 the things that you might have to carry out. This is why the military has specifically going to get

00:44:57.240 special operations or, or infantry has standards is because you need the guy to go from here to there

00:45:04.640 with a lot of gear that's not light and fight the battle and then come back. So it's, it's,

00:45:11.440 you have to have a fitness. You have to have a level of fitness. Doesn't mean you have to have a

00:45:14.960 six pack, not saying that, but every man should have, should be physically fit to a certain extent.

00:45:20.760 You should have the strength to, you know, to do pushups and pull-ups and I don't know. I just,

00:45:27.100 and conditioning. I'm very, very big about that. I think it gets overlooked so much. And I just don't

00:45:32.720 find any excuse for it. When I see guys, I give guys shit all the time. I'm like, bro, what's,

00:45:37.560 what is that? So I, cause I think that goes into being a man that can be there to protect his family

00:45:45.280 at the same time. You are there to provide financially, but you also have to, women like

00:45:51.280 to feel safe. I know that's going to come down as some kind of sexist comment, but women want to

00:45:56.580 feel safe. They do. I talk to my wife about it all the time. She wants to feel secure.

00:46:03.020 They want to feel secure. This is, this is, this is interesting. It wasn't that long ago.

00:46:07.680 There were some other woman goes, you know, it was made a comment in some movie and to the,

00:46:11.940 to the effect that the woman said like, I'm scared all the time. I'm like, that's not real. Is that

00:46:18.360 true? My wife's like, yeah, when I'm out by myself, I'm, I'm like, not scared, but I'm always

00:46:24.420 looking around. Like I'm worried women when their husbands are on trips and they're home alone.

00:46:29.400 Yeah. I know a lot of women feel like that. Yeah. I don't feel like that when I'm home alone is

00:46:33.180 hanging out, whatever, but they feel very vulnerable. It's awesome. Yeah, I know, but

00:46:37.060 they feel very vulnerable. And I, and I was like, really? So we had, it, it was a great opportunity

00:46:42.300 to have a good, really, you know, hard, hard conversation about it. And I was like, you really

00:46:46.820 feel they're vulnerable. So he goes, Oh my God, you have no idea. Like all women do. You go, I know you're

00:46:50.760 in a parking lot, you pull in somewhere, you're looking around, you know, head on a swivel.

00:46:55.020 You know, situational awareness. And it's, I was like, I can understand. Cause you know,

00:47:00.580 my wife, I'm, you know, I'm sure your wife is grounded in kind of reality and that, you know,

00:47:06.200 that I can be some boss babe out there kicking our ass. You know, that's, that's like Marvel movies

00:47:10.780 and shit like that. Like they're, they're in grounded reality that the average Joe could take

00:47:15.220 them down. The average guy, even with a beard guy can throw them to the ground and do horrible

00:47:19.380 things to them. So it's, um, I was just, and so that's taken me to this point now as I'm 55 years

00:47:26.640 old where I'm really big about the fitness stuff now. And I'm actually now really even leaning into

00:47:31.560 just the concept of longevity. Cause I need to be there for them as long as possible. This is why

00:47:38.360 health and fitness is even more as we get, as we became older with gray hair to take care of

00:47:45.160 ourselves. Cause we might have to, we need to be there. I need to be there for my kids. I need to

00:47:49.480 be there for my daughters. And so I'm going to continue as long as I possibly can to be capable

00:47:55.160 of doing so physically. Yeah. I mean, I, I think that's a really good point. I heard a quote. Um,

00:48:03.820 this was also from Jocko and I'm paraphrasing, but he said something like men sometimes have what other

00:48:09.980 men want and women always have what other men want. And that was a, that was a really interesting

00:48:18.520 perspective on, on the differences I think between men and women as far as potential victimization.

00:48:26.880 But you know, the other thing I was thinking of as you were saying that is when you said, well,

00:48:30.920 women might feel bad about or insecure about what you said. The reality is that we all play a different

00:48:36.940 part in this, in this game. And when a woman feels protected and secure physically, mentally,

00:48:44.800 emotionally, financially, it unburdens her. It takes something off of her shoulders where now she can

00:48:53.380 focus on what she is eminently qualified for, which is love and support and nurturing and empathy

00:49:02.820 and kindness and compassion. But the same way that when a man is strapped with excessive financial

00:49:11.220 debt or excess stress because work's not going well, or the relationship is on the rocks, he is not free

00:49:18.300 to pursue the ability to provide for his family or protect his family or have that purpose. Like we

00:49:25.960 were talking about earlier. I agree. When you have that, I think when the relationship is in balance

00:49:33.040 between a man and a woman, the man is doing what he's doing is providing and protecting.

00:49:38.720 It allows, again, it unburdens her and allows her femininity to thrive. My wife has told me that

00:49:44.600 she is just, she thrives in that space. Um, and because she, she can, she can, yeah, just let down

00:49:54.540 her guard. She doesn't have to be that cause it's taken care of. I, uh, but going, you know, going back

00:49:59.760 to the purpose. Yeah. I think there's a, I, a lack of purpose that men feel. And, uh, yeah, I don't,

00:50:08.640 I don't, I mean, I've got some ideas on how that can be fixed, but you know, there it's,

00:50:12.760 there's a lot of headwind out there with, you know, popular culture that wants to, you know,

00:50:16.520 take that on. This is kind of going back to where you have two distinct cultures in our nation. Now

00:50:21.400 you didn't have this kind of debate on what masculinity was during world war two or pre

00:50:27.680 world war two, or even post world war two. This is a very recent phenomenon as far as trying to

00:50:33.820 define masculinity today. And essentially defining it as it should be more like femininity. It's, it's a,

00:50:39.960 right. It doesn't make sense. Um, and it's, it's a part of a cultural belief system that's

00:50:47.820 runs complete opposite to ours. And those two cannot cohabitate. It's impossible.

00:50:55.240 Well, I mean, it even goes back further than that. You take a Marcus Aurelius. He said,

00:50:59.240 waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one. Yeah. Which leads me to believe that

00:51:04.220 there wasn't actually a conversation about what it meant to be a man. Everybody just had

00:51:08.240 their definition and knew what it was and you either were, or you were not. And I know that

00:51:13.980 can be threatening to guys who feel like, I mean, the reality is this, and we talked a little bit

00:51:19.100 about labels and frameworks and obviously the quote we addressed earlier. And then we talked about,

00:51:24.340 um, uh, tribalism with the two parties, but some things can be fit into labels and some things can be

00:51:32.460 fit into very nice packages. And one of them for men is to be a protector, a provider and a presider

00:51:39.880 synonymous with leadership. And if a guy, in my opinion, if a man steps more fully into that and

00:51:47.520 he embraces that lifestyle, he says, I'm going to learn how to protect myself and other people.

00:51:51.760 I'm going to learn how to provide financially and emotionally and spiritually. And I'm going to

00:51:56.620 learn how to lead people, communicate effectively, cast vision, motivate, inspire. There would never

00:52:02.340 be a man who would ever have a lack of purpose in his life if he did those three things. And I am

00:52:07.720 fully bought into that concept. I agree. I agree. And I think what I would add with that, and I think

00:52:14.640 why some men are, can be become these incels today or afraid of that is the, is the word failure.

00:52:21.900 And what I would encourage those guys to do is redefine failure. If there's a, if there's something

00:52:27.980 you can redefine, it's that for instance. So there's two, there's, there's failing present tense,

00:52:36.220 and then there's failure past tense. We all fail. There's going to be something we're doing. We're

00:52:42.640 failing at it. That's okay. I got to go back to Jocko. Good, good. It's something I need to work on.

00:52:49.200 So I've reframed everything that bad, anything that bad happens to me, if I fail or mess up at

00:52:57.060 something, I choose now to look at it as an opportunity. It took me a while to retrain my

00:53:04.260 brain and everything is, that's an opportunity. I'm going to learn something from that. And so it's

00:53:09.780 like the observer effect. So now I only look for the lessons in that event or that situation. I look for

00:53:17.300 that. Okay. When I'm going to, this will make me better. I can level up from this. I can do this

00:53:21.700 better. I can do that, or I won't do that. I choose to not. So then it's just a failing, not a failure

00:53:27.800 because I don't allow it to shut me down. I don't allow it to like, I now I walk away. I step off the

00:53:34.740 stage of life because I, I made a mistake. We all make mistakes. We all will have moments where we fail

00:53:40.880 or we're not doing our best. And it's okay. That's completely okay for those guys out there.

00:53:47.480 They're trying and a mistake happens or something comes into their space and it disrupts them. And

00:53:53.440 now they're having some financial stress. Okay. It's an opportunity. If they embrace it as an

00:53:59.120 opportunity and find a way they will get around it. King, I was at King Solomon in the Bible,

00:54:06.540 uh, uh, richest guy in the world at the time, whenever that was, you know, I think, was he,

00:54:11.000 was he King's, was he King David's son? I can't remember now. Um, anyway, you're asking the wrong

00:54:15.620 guy on that, but I'm sure there's lots of biblical scholars. I'm going to get some hate on this maybe,

00:54:20.160 but, um, so, but I do know that he used to like, so he was the richest guy in the world back in the,

00:54:24.900 back in the day, uh, very successful, had everything you could ever imagine yet stuff would happen to

00:54:32.340 him. So he had a, he had this gold ring and on inside of it, he had it inscribed,

00:54:36.360 this too shall pass. So even the richest guy in the world would have issues or have problems.

00:54:42.480 And in order, he would have, he would look at his ring to remind him that this will pass too.

00:54:48.360 So we're all going to go through hardship. We're all going to have suffering. We're all going to go

00:54:53.420 through shit and that's just okay. You can, you can survive it. You will survive it. It will,

00:55:01.060 it too shall pass. And so if it's going to pass on a time, on a linear timeframe,

00:55:06.980 then why don't you redefine it as an opportunity to learn? Then it's not failure anymore. It's a lesson.

00:55:15.140 I think another important component of this too, Jeff, is that this too shall pass if you let it.

00:55:26.180 Like I, I cannot tell you how many men, and I've done this too, I'm guilty of this too,

00:55:30.940 where we hang on to a failure for way too long, or we latch onto some underperformance in a relationship

00:55:38.140 relationship or at work or just our own personal morality. And we just cling to it as if it's our

00:55:44.800 source of life. And as you were talking about failure, my thought was it's, it's either a result

00:55:51.720 of poor performance or an adjective of who you are. It's just a result. Like it does not define you

00:56:00.060 unless you choose to make it an adjective of who you are.

00:56:02.840 Unless you choose for it to. Yeah. Right. It's all, you get, you get, you get to,

00:56:08.120 you get to choose in on everything. Like our reality, our lives are dictated by our choices

00:56:13.960 and our mindset. This comes out to that mindset. Are we, are we choosing into that? Or are we,

00:56:19.720 again, I use the tool of reframing it. I reframe it. And therefore I don't want to use,

00:56:27.180 I don't want to say I'm happy that these things happen, but I'm like, I'm just like, okay,

00:56:31.780 I'm going to learn something from this. I'm going to grow from this. And when, when it's,

00:56:37.260 when it's redefined, you, you, it's a, you accept it differently. It's, it's like, I don't know.

00:56:45.300 It's, and you own it. You also have to own it too, but not own it to the point where,

00:56:50.380 um, you're beating yourself up over it, you know, and you're living in guilt the rest of your life.

00:56:57.020 Like what, that's what you were saying. They look at a failure and they're, they, they're riddled by

00:57:00.880 guilt the whole, the whole time. It's like, what, why would you do that? Why would you

00:57:05.220 handicap yourself like that? Why don't you redefine it and then, um, take ownership of it. And then

00:57:11.680 look what I've done. Cause nothing's better than kind of the, the guy who rises up, right.

00:57:16.880 From defeat. Nothing's, nothing's more amazing. The guy's been beaten down and he gets back up and

00:57:21.860 every guy will go, that guy, that guy, I love that guy. He got beaten down and he's got back

00:57:29.000 on his feet again. We love the men, men, like, that's the good thing about men. I love that about

00:57:34.360 men. And that is like, when I put drinking, I never had more calm. I never had more like support

00:57:41.320 than from my guys. It's always like the women where you've got like, when I'm like, why not?

00:57:46.000 But all my guy friends are like, good for you, man. That's good. You feel good. I said,

00:57:50.720 I feel amazing. That's good for you. They look good. Like support. Like that's a good brother

00:57:56.920 right there. They're supporting you. I was here, but now I'm here and they love it.

00:58:00.980 I mean, that's why even in the movies, we like the characters that we do, whether it's

00:58:07.420 Marcus Aurelius with, or I mean, uh, uh, Maximus, excuse me, with Gladiator or William Wallace with

00:58:14.300 Braveheart. I mean, this is the reason that we latch onto those guys. And yet you are the character.

00:58:20.620 You are the character in your movie. You can be that you had a bad relationship. You had a business

00:58:25.680 failure. You had a financial disaster. You had a medical condition. Um, you had people take advantage of

00:58:30.660 you good. It means you can rise up above it and create a really cool, compelling story for yourself

00:58:37.440 and other people. A hundred percent. And that's, that's a good point. You bring up something about

00:58:43.300 characters. Um, it's, I would like to see more men or more people, just more men though, um, make

00:58:51.480 themselves the main character in their story. That doesn't mean that you're now putting your wife or

00:58:58.520 your spouse, your children over here, but you can't take care of them fully unless you're taking

00:59:03.760 care of yourself. You have to take care of yourself. Um, and there's, there's some guys I

00:59:10.860 know that are just always, uh, they like to be the martyr kind of thing. Well, I'm like, why would

00:59:16.260 you do one? Take care of yourself. You're better equipped to be the provider. If you take care of

00:59:20.360 yourself, I'm not saying spool yourself like a baby, like a child, but you take care of yourself,

00:59:24.640 take care of your health, take care of your fitness. You know, I just, you know, take care

00:59:28.980 of your mental wellbeing. However you do that, when that's through spirituality or religion or

00:59:33.540 meditation, whatever that is, mental health is a very big thing too. So take care of yourself.

00:59:38.740 And then when you're optimal, then you can take care of everyone around you.

00:59:44.500 I love it. I actually think that's part of the reason why even just over the past couple of

00:59:49.560 years I've tended to not exclusively, but migrated more than I have in the past towards fictional

00:59:55.400 work, because there are so many stories and lessons and aspirational concepts and ideas that

01:00:03.480 you can learn from fictional work. You know, I had, um, Lee and Andrew child on with the Jack

01:00:07.860 Reacher series. And they talked about why fictional work was so much more important than self-help.

01:00:13.240 And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. And then I started really contemplating and read more fictional

01:00:17.660 work. And I'm like, you know, maybe there's actually something to this. And I know you do

01:00:21.820 a lot of fictional work as well. Yeah. Well, it's at least a hundred percent, right. I've

01:00:26.260 tried to talk, uh, talk to people about this. It's a way you can drive a message better than

01:00:34.280 if you're reading some kind of a nonfiction self-help book, because what happens in the

01:00:38.240 character building, everybody will, you'll connect to a character, right? Typically you can actually,

01:00:43.580 say, say if it's a Reacher series, say you'll, you'll find rapport with Reacher. You're connecting

01:00:48.780 with him. And so when he's making decisions, you're also thinking, well, what would I do?

01:00:52.380 Would I do this? Would I do that? You're critiquing, you know, cause you're, you're essentially

01:00:55.860 kind of being him. And so the things or the issues or whatever that he's dealing with and

01:01:01.100 you're dealing with. And so it's, it's definitely a way to drive, to drive, to drive a message

01:01:06.220 home because of this, that emotional connection we get with a character. And I got so many

01:01:12.200 people that reached out to me and how they guys, even women, but guys, some guys like

01:01:18.280 I've become a prepper now because I was reading your books. Like, Holy shit, I need to lock

01:01:22.600 my shit down now. I need to be, you know, like, because you're reading and you're watching

01:01:26.080 what's happened to some of these characters. Like, I can't do that. I need to like, I need

01:01:29.320 to get a gun. I need prepared. I need to have this. I'm good. I said, good, good. Because

01:01:33.360 they were seeing what was happening to the characters that didn't have those resources or didn't

01:01:37.680 have those skillsets. Like, I don't want to be like that. I don't want to do that because

01:01:41.840 it was emotional. It was hitting them here. And that, that here made them go here. And

01:01:47.760 they're like, Oh, and then they acted outside of it. And it's so, yeah, fiction is very, very

01:01:52.960 powerful, very powerful. And then you have to look at it this way. Human beings, man, we're

01:01:58.180 structured. We're storytellers. So think about this. When you wake up to when you go to bed,

01:02:04.520 you're either consuming stories or telling stories or good point. You are a story can

01:02:11.180 be just a narrative that you're on social media. You're looking at, it could be you, maybe

01:02:14.900 you're actually reading a book or watching, you know, listen to a podcast, listen to us

01:02:18.380 tell stories, right. Or you're watching a movie or then, yeah, you're going, you're telling

01:02:23.900 a story to, uh, to someone, you know, you work with, you're telling a story, they're listening

01:02:27.700 and then they're telling you a story back. Humans were conditioned just to tell stories.

01:02:31.260 It's all we do all the time. And then when we sleep, we're having a story run in our

01:02:34.620 brain, right? It's a constant storytelling. We're just, we're storytellers. That's what

01:02:39.940 humans, that's what humans are.

01:02:42.220 Yeah. Well, it's powerful when you tell yourself the right stories and you consume the right

01:02:46.640 stories as well, because you can consume a lot of stories. You know, politicians love

01:02:50.340 to feed us stories that aren't in our best interest, for example. So I think it's really

01:02:54.320 important that we remain vigilant towards the stories we're consuming and telling ourselves

01:02:59.220 because that I think will largely determine how we're going to act throughout the rest

01:03:02.580 of our lives.

01:03:03.620 Well, look at, we'll look at what they call it. They call it a political narrative. It's

01:03:07.740 a story.

01:03:08.180 Right. Good point.

01:03:09.200 It's a story. They, they'll concoct a story to try to convince us or gaslight us to think

01:03:15.760 a certain way. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it, and so that's why Lee's a hundred percent right

01:03:21.920 that novels, if done right, can deliver a message more powerfully than if you picked up some

01:03:28.300 other book and get someone to move to action faster. Um, one, uh, are you familiar with

01:03:34.220 Stephen Ambrose historian?

01:03:36.840 I don't think so. No, it's eighties, nineties. He wrote a book. I read it in the nineties

01:03:40.820 got undaunted courage. That was about the Lewis and Clark expedition. Oh my God. Stephen, Stephen

01:03:47.300 had a way he's passed on. I think he died in the early two thousands, but he had a way

01:03:51.980 of delivering history, like a story. So it was just an incredible book learning about,

01:03:58.440 you know, you have to meet Jefferson and Meriwether Lewis and you get in, and, and there's a big

01:04:03.820 John Clark and the core of discovery. And it was such a fascinating read. And I, you know,

01:04:12.820 I encourage you to read it. You just really learn about what these men went through on their

01:04:16.800 travels across the wilderness and it was 1803 or whatever it was, but it was so powerful

01:04:24.100 because he wrote it. He wrote history like a story. And so you become involved in it and

01:04:31.100 you're, you're completely, you're, you're involved with Meriwether Lewis. And then like sad when

01:04:37.140 you find out what happens to him at the end. And yeah, I don't want to spoil it for anyone

01:04:40.520 who's not familiar with what ever happened to Meriwether Lewis.

01:04:42.100 Don't because I'm interested. Yeah. I'm very interested.

01:04:44.040 It's just, it's just, and it, but then he's like, he's, he's just dotting in all these facts,

01:04:48.360 all this true historical facts along the way. Like this is, this is a crazy factoid.

01:04:53.400 I'm not spoiling it here, but just like they were consuming up to nine pounds of meat a day.

01:04:59.360 Each guy.

01:05:01.280 Whoa.

01:05:01.920 Is that insane or not?

01:05:02.680 Based on how much calories, how many calories they were burning?

01:05:04.700 Yeah. And so, so he took incredible walks. He had all these journals. It's a lot of information

01:05:09.300 came from Meriwether, from Lewis's journals. Yeah. They were consuming, each guy was consuming

01:05:13.880 about nine pounds of meat a day. I mean, I do that too sometimes, but I'm definitely

01:05:18.860 not burning that much. So, but it was just crazy. I mean, so they're getting this game

01:05:23.340 and they're just consuming a lot of meat, a lot of meat. I was just a one little factoid

01:05:27.120 they learned, but yeah, I absolutely encourage you reading undaunted courage. You'll come away

01:05:31.180 just completely inspired. Like what these guys are capable of doing, what they did do.

01:05:36.240 It was truly, truly cool story. What these men did. I, it made me like, good God, I wish

01:05:40.860 I was on the core of discovery. That was so exciting. Well, it's like, what an adventure.

01:05:45.840 Yeah. Well, this, this, this reminds me a little bit of, um, uh, gosh, now I'm drawing

01:05:51.700 a blank Shackleton's adventure, um, to, to the, uh, to the South pole, the Antarctic.

01:05:59.100 Um, oh yeah. Gosh, this is one of my favorite books. I can't believe that. I can't remember

01:06:04.760 it right now, but the, as the legacy goes, he basically put an ad out that said, Hey,

01:06:10.680 our likelihood of success is bismal. But if we do, we're going to be heroes and legends.

01:06:16.620 And, uh, uh, Ernest Shackleton, what is the book called? Ah, it's going to frustrate me.

01:06:23.300 I'll figure it out. But I think it's the same concept. We see heroic actions like this

01:06:28.220 and we, as men want to step into that, you know? Yeah. We, we, we seek adventure. And again,

01:06:33.700 I think it ties into purpose. We, you know, um, this is something I think, and I don't,

01:06:39.120 I don't know if there's not based on any sciences based on, I I've often wondered,

01:06:44.300 you know, about again, going down to the human condition and things like that. When you look at

01:06:48.380 PTSD, right. And you look at guys who serve and some guys have a very tough time transitioning back

01:06:56.180 and other guys don't, I'm like, okay, what's, what's, what's going on here? Is there some kind

01:07:01.600 of common denominator? Um, that, that, and I, I have a theory and not a hundred percent. I'm not,

01:07:09.100 so don't like, I'm not quoting me. There's no science or peer reviewed papers on my thought on

01:07:14.480 this. But, you know, I look at like, I was, when I exited the Marine Corps after six years,

01:07:19.960 I think I successfully transitioned because I went, I was still with the guys who understood me.

01:07:26.740 I went from the military to commercial diving school and everyone at commercial diving school

01:07:30.740 was in the military. So we all spoke the same language. And then, and then I went from there

01:07:37.880 after two and a half years and became a bodyguard again, same thing. Ex-military cops or body military,

01:07:45.380 law enforcement, law enforcement. We all speak the same lingo. We all speak the same language.

01:07:49.320 So I, I was able to like come back into civilian, you know, society, fully re-implement myself

01:07:56.500 after 10 years of just constantly hanging with the people that understood me. And I think sometimes

01:08:03.240 you might get some guys that they're on, like, think of the purpose, you know, specifically during

01:08:08.580 the wars, like think of the purpose you had. You were, you were in history. You were taking part in

01:08:15.660 military campaigns, taking part in operations that there were meaningful purpose-driven stuff.

01:08:23.840 You had, you, you know, when you look at, you look at the military too, you know, young men are given

01:08:29.240 such responsibility at such young age. Like, like, like, if you look at enlisted, you have 22 year old

01:08:35.940 corporals or NCOs or sergeants. These are leaders of men at such young age, such huge responsibility

01:08:42.620 on their shoulders. And they're doing it. They're handling it. So these young men have some incredible

01:08:48.400 purpose. And then they come home and then they get out and then they end up in, they're in Ames,

01:08:56.120 Iowa, wherever they're from. And no one understands them. No one gets them. And now they're thinking

01:09:02.300 about all the shit and everyone they're hanging out with, let's tell me what happened. Like,

01:09:07.800 they don't get it. They don't understand me. And you've just been taken away from this

01:09:12.780 larger than life kind of adventure in some ways. I mean, I look at the military. It was definitely

01:09:17.340 an adventure. They're like, what'd you do? I got the blow up shit. It's pretty cool. Um,

01:09:21.440 it, it is, it's a, when you really look at it, but it's, it's a grand adventure to make what you did.

01:09:28.320 You left home, you travel around the world or whatever you did, cool stuff. And you, now you're doing

01:09:34.400 whatever you're working at a grocery store or you're back in college, but no one understands

01:09:38.020 you. And I think that can be a part of some people having some mental breaks or not doing

01:09:44.880 well with mental health. And I'm saying, I'm not taking away from some of the experiences they had,

01:09:49.660 but then again, I'd look at some guys that have had the same similar experiences yet. They don't

01:09:53.280 have that happen to them. So I just wonder what's, what drives some of it. And again, I don't know

01:10:01.260 for sure. But I know I just look at my own experience and then just always hanging. I just,

01:10:05.900 I like, I never skipped a beat six years. And then two years, all the guys were in the military.

01:10:10.580 We were all talking the same shit, talk the same language, bodyguards, same thing. We're all just,

01:10:14.600 I was hanging with the same guys again. Like I never left for a long period of time. And then

01:10:19.400 eventually civilian friends. And then now I'm here where I'm today. And again, imagine being

01:10:24.220 transplanted, being with a platoon, being with a unit of guys, you've been through a lot of shit.

01:10:28.520 Now you're out. Now you're dropped somewhere in the middle of nowhere back home. No one gets

01:10:33.160 you. No one understands you. Well, I remember coming home and I watched a, I can't remember

01:10:39.340 if it was a young man or young woman berate, literally berate the, the cashier, the sweet

01:10:45.660 little young woman who's probably 17, 16 years old because she didn't put enough mocha frappuccino

01:10:53.020 in her Starbucks latte or whatever. And I thought, this is what we're worried about. Like

01:11:00.280 this, I just got back. Like, this is what we're concerned about. And it gave you an entirely

01:11:06.880 different perspective on the things that we get consumed with.

01:11:09.900 Yeah, totally.

01:11:11.280 Oh my gosh.

01:11:13.700 It's wild.

01:11:14.840 Yeah.

01:11:15.440 Well, Jeff, Hey, uh, I'd love to know how to connect with you. I think the guys probably

01:11:19.720 really resonate with this conversation. You've got your, um, your nonfiction series that I

01:11:25.080 want to make sure you address. The name of that book, by the way, is endurance. I can't

01:11:29.980 believe that I could not remember it. It's such a great, it's one of my favorite books.

01:11:34.200 I want to write that down.

01:11:35.820 I love this kind of book.

01:11:37.360 You'll love it. It is, it is a, it is a, uh, historical account of Ernest Shackleton's

01:11:45.100 ill-fated adventure across the Antarctic. Uh, it's phenomenal. And it gives us a framework.

01:11:51.060 When I was doing Spartan races, that was required reading. They had us before I went

01:11:55.360 and did this endurance event. It was a, uh, a 50 hour endurance event with Spartan. And

01:12:00.480 they said, you will read this book before you come. And I'm so glad they made me because

01:12:04.500 it's one of my favorites, but regardless, how do we connect with you?

01:12:08.040 Yeah. Let me ask you that when you're, I can see why they would do that for you. Cause

01:12:10.960 then when you're in the middle of the race, you're probably thinking of those guys.

01:12:13.380 Well, it's a frame of reference. It's like, okay, I can do this. Wait a minute. Those

01:12:18.680 guys did that. I can do that. This is nothing. Like these guys are yelling at me. I'm hiking

01:12:24.140 up a hill. I don't have any sleep. I'm not really all that cold, maybe a little cause we

01:12:28.820 were wet. Um, and these guys are dying in the Antarctic and they're surviving. So they're

01:12:35.160 facing leopard seals and starvation and trekking across dozens, if not hundreds of miles across

01:12:42.000 barren landscape in the middle of the winter, if they can do that, I can hang for another

01:12:46.860 10 hours. I guarantee I can.

01:12:49.300 Yeah. I think that that, and I know we gotta, we gotta jump off here, but I was just like,

01:12:53.500 that's the importance. I think that our military branches need to continue to do. And as instill

01:12:59.500 the culture in the history of whatever branch we were in and to honor whatever they did or like

01:13:07.160 our forefathers, where they came from, because that's what we look at as like, Hey, being a

01:13:11.660 Marine, it's always like, they do that. They were like a cult, man. They like brainwashed

01:13:15.500 us. Right. And to like the, the, the history of all the different campaigns. And we learned

01:13:22.200 about the guys in Okinawa and the 72 days of sustained combat. It's the game thing. It's

01:13:26.220 like, if those guys can do that, I can do this. You know, you, so you, you want to be part

01:13:31.760 of that lineage, right? You want to be part of something that's great, that huge fraternity.

01:13:38.560 So it's good to know where we come from. And this kind of can tie into our ourselves as

01:13:44.660 a nation state, why it's important to teach our history and be proud of ourselves as a

01:13:49.840 nation. Cause look at what we've done through there and then be proud to be an American and

01:13:54.880 then want to continue on with that, that culture, that lineage of what our forefathers did. We're

01:14:03.180 going to do the same thing and continue this American dream forward, this manifest destiny.

01:14:08.540 So I think culture teaching positively the lessons of what our forefathers that are, it's critical,

01:14:14.740 critical. Again, it's the storytelling. It's goes back to the storytelling thing.

01:14:19.480 Well, how do we connect with you and learn more about what you're up to so we can, uh,

01:14:22.480 sync up and read your books and follow along with your journey?

01:14:25.380 Yeah. Well, the best thing to do is just find me on, uh, gmichaelhop.com on my books. So there,

01:14:29.560 my emails there, you can get, you get in touch with me there. I kind of got rid of all my social

01:14:33.680 media a little bit ago. That's a whole nother story.

01:14:36.360 That's probably a good idea. That's probably a good idea. Are you familiar with, uh, Cal Newport

01:14:40.660 by chance?

01:14:41.800 That sounds really familiar to me. Why do I know him?

01:14:44.700 Uh, he, he wrote a book, I believe it's called, don't quote me on this, but for some reason,

01:14:51.000 digital detox is what's coming up.

01:14:53.760 Was he on, was he on Rogan's podcast?

01:14:56.640 He may have been, I actually don't know. We've had him on the podcast a couple of times and he

01:15:00.920 talks about the entire concept of minimalist work, you know, not getting distracted with

01:15:07.060 technology and social media and counterintuitively. He's very, very popular. And you wouldn't even,

01:15:15.820 most people wouldn't even know cause he's not on social media at all. He's nowhere to be found.

01:15:20.480 Yeah. I got rid of it. I still have a Facebook there. Cause I didn't want to delete it. Cause

01:15:23.440 I had all these pictures of my daughters and then I got rid of the Instagram. I just deleted

01:15:28.840 that Instagram. I got rid of LinkedIn, got rid of all that shit. And I was like, it didn't change

01:15:33.520 my sales. Didn't change my reach. Uh, you know, like I have so much more time and I find when I

01:15:40.620 was on social media, like creates a different emotional state. I feel detached. Like I feel detached

01:15:46.300 from right. Everything around me, because think about your attention shotgunned all over the

01:15:51.060 world. When I should be just focused on like focus on this conversation right now. And then when I'm

01:15:56.700 done, my wife's just got home. I'll go give my attention to her, not beyond giving attention to

01:16:00.840 something somewhere around halfway around the world. Doesn't make sense that I have no connection to.

01:16:05.200 Yeah. So I felt it. So he wrote a couple of books that he wrote so good. They can't ignore you,

01:16:10.320 which I love deep work. Another great one. And then the other one that I was talking about is

01:16:15.480 not digital detox. It's digital minimalism is the other one. So check it out. But Jeff,

01:16:21.820 we're going to sync everything up. So the guys know where to connect with you and pick up copies

01:16:25.000 of your work. And man, I'm really grateful for this conversation. I think we may need to run it back

01:16:29.060 here very soon. Cause we need to talk about some other things as well. And maybe we can do a part

01:16:34.080 two down the road as well. Yeah. We, we should take the deeper dive into the fourth turning and,

01:16:38.180 uh, generational theory. And, um, yeah, that's some, it's good to learn it. And then once you

01:16:45.520 take the deep dive, you'll be like, Oh shit, like we're in it. Like this is it. Right. I want to talk

01:16:52.520 about that for round two. If you're up for it. I'm in. Awesome, man. Cool. We'll make it happen.

01:16:57.380 All right. Thank you, brother. Appreciate you joining me today. I appreciate you, Ryan. Thank you for

01:17:00.780 having me. There you go, gentlemen, my conversation with the one and only Jeff Hoff. I hope you enjoyed it.

01:17:07.600 Uh, very enlightening. We're going to do a round two. We already talked about it. We're going to do a

01:17:11.100 round two. And, uh, I think you're going to get a lot of insight from that as well. I only knew

01:17:16.000 Jeff through that quote, which I did not originally hear from him, but he did indeed pen that phrase

01:17:21.800 and that term. And, uh, obviously he has a lot more insight to back it up. So make sure you connect

01:17:26.900 with him. He's got his nonfiction book series. Check those out. We talked a little bit about that

01:17:31.500 throughout the podcast. Uh, also check out our course coming up divorce, not death.com

01:17:37.260 divorce, not death.com. I think that's going to help a lot of you guys navigate. Not only some

01:17:42.040 of the stuff that I've been through post divorce, but some of the things that I'm sure thousands,

01:17:48.040 if not tens of thousands or millions of other men listening to this podcast have gone through

01:17:52.180 and we're going to help you navigate that. So you can hold your head up high, redeem yourself,

01:17:56.460 fix yourself, potentially get into a new relationship and make yourself into a better man.

01:18:01.960 All right, guys, you've got your marching orders. We will be back tomorrow for our ask me anything

01:18:06.860 until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:18:14.680 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:18:19.340 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:18:24.840 Thank you.

01:18:25.840 Thank you.

Order of Man - May 06, 2025

GEOFF HOPF ｜ Hard Times Create Strong Men

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