Order of Man - GRANGER SMITH ｜ Finding Faith and Hope in God

00:00:00.140 Finding our sense of worth as men can be an extremely daunting task. We're often led to

00:00:05.220 believe that if we say just the right things, do all of the things we should be doing and

00:00:09.860 achieve the success that society has deemed appropriate, that we'll find what we're looking

00:00:14.060 for. Unfortunately, many of us are left with a sense of emptiness in spite of our worldly

00:00:19.860 success. My guest today is my good friend, Granger Smith. Today, we tackle a conversation

00:00:24.740 that we really haven't had on the podcast. As we talk about self-worth, the danger in

00:00:29.780 the quote, love yourself message, why cultural Christianity doesn't cut it, feeling like

00:00:35.420 a fraud, and ultimately finding faith and hope in God.

00:00:38.680 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart

00:00:43.520 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You

00:00:49.040 are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This

00:00:55.280 is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all the

00:00:59.760 is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:03.400 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler. I'm your host, and I'm also

00:01:07.700 the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement. Welcome here today. I'm going to

00:01:14.100 say this up front. This is a conversation that we really haven't had over the past almost

00:01:20.160 eight years now on the podcast. We've danced around it. We've talked about it. But I felt

00:01:25.500 like it was time to talk about God and our walk in faith. Now, I know, admittedly, let's

00:01:32.320 get this out of the way that this is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way, maybe

00:01:35.540 turn people off. But, you know, I think it's good to discuss all angles and talk about all

00:01:41.320 conversations. And we're going to have conversations, whether they're controversial or not, because

00:01:47.420 we're trying to figure out how to be better men from every angle and facet and resource that

00:01:52.920 we have. So, I hope you enjoy the conversation and you walk away with some new perspective.

00:01:58.060 Now, before I get into it with Granger, I just want to let you know that the Iron Council

00:02:02.200 is going to be opening up in the middle of December. So, that's next week. I believe it's

00:02:06.780 next Thursday. It's the 15th. So, I'm going to talk more about it here in a bit, but want

00:02:12.520 to let you know, you can go to orderofman.com slash Iron Council to learn a little bit more

00:02:17.880 and sign up to be notified when we open up. That's the only announcement I have for today.

00:02:23.340 I want to get into the conversation and my guest. He's really become a good friend since

00:02:28.940 we had him on the podcast last year. His name is Granger Smith. He's an extremely successful

00:02:33.840 country music artist, public speaker, and actor. You can add to the list. You may also recognize

00:02:40.220 him as Earl Dibbles Jr., the spokesman for Yee Yee Apparel. Although, I can neither confirm nor

00:02:45.840 deny they are the same or different people. I'll let you make that decision for yourself.

00:02:50.900 Now, I really wish that I could share some of the personal conversations we've had because

00:02:55.640 if I could, I think I would be able to shed more light on how powerful this man is and the amount

00:03:01.760 of good he wants to do in the world. You're going to hear that obviously in the conversation today.

00:03:05.940 So, enjoy this one, gents.

00:03:08.920 Granger, what is up, my friend? So good to see you.

00:03:11.500 Man, good to see you too.

00:03:12.820 You are the modern day renaissance man, I've decided.

00:03:18.380 That's how I feel about you.

00:03:20.600 Are you serious? No, no, no, no, no.

00:03:22.520 Yes, yes.

00:03:22.860 No, man. You're educated. You're a speaker. You're a musician. You're an actor now. I'm

00:03:29.200 like, look at this guy.

00:03:30.320 Well, as I've gotten older and coming from the entertainment industry, I have started

00:03:39.500 to zero in on the things that have meaning to them. Not because I'm setting out to be

00:03:49.560 this man of meaning and to have a legacy of meaning. It's not because of that. It's actually

00:03:55.260 much more shallow. It's because when I do things that are meaningful, it makes me feel

00:04:00.380 good. It makes me feel like it's worth it. And it makes me feel like I want to do it

00:04:04.160 again tomorrow. And that's important in a world where we can get in this rat race. 0.65

00:04:09.940 And in the music business, after so many years of touring and putting out albums and putting

00:04:16.000 out radio singles. And the thing about a radio single is once it peaks, even if it's number

00:04:21.880 one, you get to celebrate that. And then the next day, this new discussion comes in on your

00:04:28.960 inbox of what's the next single.

00:04:30.680 Right. And it's always the expectation for that single is always the top. It's got to

00:04:37.820 be the top. And at some point you realize, wait, you mean there's no end to this? Like

00:04:43.940 is 19 number ones enough? No. Is 27 enough? No. Is 50 enough? No. It's always one more.

00:04:51.660 And so my point is after so many shows and so many concerts, it's like, I need something

00:04:58.080 more to make me want to do this tomorrow, to make me want to do this next year. And so

00:05:03.440 we started setting out as a band to just say, Hey, we're going to, we're going to go out

00:05:07.060 there and play for the one tonight. Instead of playing for the crowd, let's play for the

00:05:11.820 one, because you know, someone came, someone came that is wanting to forget something that

00:05:18.140 they just don't want to remember anymore. Or someone came to remember something they

00:05:21.960 haven't been able to feel in a long time. Or someone has just came to just feel

00:05:27.120 something again, emotionally. And so as musicians, we have that kind of responsibility

00:05:32.540 to give that to them. And if we just look at it as a crowd, then it means nothing. But

00:05:39.620 if we could look at it as one person, then it starts mattering. And then it feels like

00:05:44.280 I want to do it again.

00:05:45.420 I like that. I heard, I don't know where I heard this, but somebody had posed a question.

00:05:50.240 They said, when's the last, and they were talking directly to me. I was having a conversation

00:05:53.260 with them and they said, when's the last time you did something that was just intrinsically

00:06:00.020 valuable or intrinsically had meaning, not because you were going to get any praise or accolades or

00:06:06.560 notoriety or, or some sort of, you know, pats on the back, but just because it was intrinsically

00:06:12.380 valuable, like reading a book or having a really good conversation with a friend. That's something

00:06:19.460 that if nobody saw it and it impacted nobody else, you would still do it and find meaning

00:06:24.160 from it. It was a really powerful question. The way they phrase that.

00:06:27.560 Yeah. Yeah, totally. And it could be as simple as, you know, like my, my grandma, there's 96

00:06:32.880 and she, she doesn't get around very well. She can't hear very well. It could just be going and

00:06:37.960 sitting with her and not being on my phone.

00:06:41.000 Yeah. And that's, that's not, it's not always something we want to do, but we do it because

00:06:48.020 it matters and it's important. And if we just stack up a bunch of those things at the end of

00:06:53.060 our life, then I think it's a life worth living. I agree. I agree. It's just so hard. You know,

00:06:58.400 we, I think we've been conditioned in a lot of ways to, to do things for other people. And I don't

00:07:03.460 mean for the service of other people. I mean, to entertain or to perform for other people,

00:07:10.700 not necessarily acts of service. I think there's a difference there.

00:07:14.800 Yeah. You're, you're absolutely right. And you feel that in the podcast world for sure. It's like,

00:07:20.180 feed me, Ryan, feed me. What, what do you have for me today?

00:07:23.780 Yeah. I, but you know what? I've changed that even just, I mean, we've had a lot of discussions

00:07:28.540 over the past three or four months, just personal discussions. And I've changed the way I've started

00:07:34.260 to talk to people. And, and I, I actually just want to have conversations that I feel a little

00:07:40.200 selfish. I'm like, actually, I need to talk to Granger. And so let's have a conversation and

00:07:45.260 I'll just hit record. So other people can get value from something that I actually needed for

00:07:49.840 myself. So I feel, I feel a little selfish in a lot of ways.

00:07:53.380 I don't think it's selfish at all. I understand why you think it would be,

00:07:57.380 but, but yeah, you've, you've developed a platform where, and you've talked to enough people

00:08:02.700 where people legitimately just want to hear what you have to say, because you've been in the room

00:08:07.240 with a lot of people that have thought deeply about really important subjects. And because of

00:08:13.420 that, you've absorbed that and people just want to hear you talk. And I think it's, that's a really

00:08:17.860 good thing. It's not selfish to hit record and let other people hear it.

00:08:21.920 Yeah, man. That's good. That's good. I'm, I'm really interested in how you strike the balance

00:08:28.920 between, because you are an artist and you want to put your message out there, whether it's on the

00:08:35.520 screen or whether it's behind the microphone, like you want to put your message out there.

00:08:39.840 Like, how do you strike the balance with making sure that what you're sharing does resonate with

00:08:45.040 other people, but also you're not trying to just simply entertain that there's actually meaning and

00:08:51.780 significance to it. Cause there's probably a lot of things that you could do that you

00:08:54.860 turn down. I imagine.

00:08:56.380 Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's an everyday thing. That's a, that's an everyday battle. It's an everyday

00:09:04.680 discussion. It's an everyday trial and error. You know, I live in the world where if I, if I want to

00:09:11.640 make so much money, for instance, I could just say yes to everything and then not be a dad at all and

00:09:18.060 be completely gone from my wife and on the road all the time. And that was hard for me to learn

00:09:25.060 in the, in the service industry, I guess in a way I'm in the service industry where I'm a work for

00:09:30.620 hire. And that's, that was really hard for me. I remember the first time I turned down a weekend,

00:09:37.740 a Saturday, a Friday, Saturday run in the middle of the summer. And for so long, I took every show

00:09:45.820 to pay the bills. And I remember we were working so hard and my booking agent said, you know,

00:09:51.540 Granger, you don't have to work that weekend of the 15th and 16th of June if you don't want to.

00:09:57.160 And I was like, what do you mean? What do you mean? We don't have to. He's like, yeah, you're okay.

00:10:01.940 Like you could take off a weekend. And it was so hard for me because I was always just about

00:10:06.980 no weekends are wasted. No Fridays and money day, Saturdays and money day, never waste it.

00:10:12.380 And it was so hard to realize that staying at home and not making money was more valuable.

00:10:18.000 And that was, that was difficult, a difficult mountain to climb.

00:10:22.940 Yeah. That has been for me. You know, what's hard for me is, is finding when enough is enough.

00:10:30.020 Yeah.

00:10:30.980 And usually it's on the back of some sort of external validation, like money. You know,

00:10:35.580 at some point we all have enough money to cover our needs and some of our wants as well. It's like,

00:10:40.660 all right, yeah, I can make more money. Is that going to make my life that much better?

00:10:44.560 Uh, no, I might, I might have a newer car. I might take one more vacation, but at what cost? At what

00:10:51.500 expense?

00:10:53.740 That is, that is like the question, right? You say most of the time it has to do with something

00:10:59.200 like money. Well, it's, it's almost all the time. It's almost always, and, and there, we all admit

00:11:05.580 there's a certain level of income that you could have where you're comfortably paying the bills.

00:11:11.140 You're living comfortably. Um, and that's subjective to different people, but, um, you know,

00:11:17.400 some people have said like, like $70,000 a year is what you need to have bills paid,

00:11:24.620 have food on the table and have clothes and you're comfortable. And then everything after that,

00:11:30.540 you start wondering, and I could, the way we could test it for me is I could look back in my life

00:11:35.820 when I didn't have much money and I can go, was I visibly happier then? And the answer is always

00:11:42.980 no. It's always no. I wasn't more happy then or now. Um, it's, it's always relative. And I tell

00:11:49.580 young artists, young musicians that are struggling and trying to, trying to, you know, be on a big

00:11:55.360 stage. And I say, let me tell you something. This is a fact. The, the, uh, the, the great days I had

00:12:01.900 back then were no worse or no better than the great days I have now. And the low days back then

00:12:08.500 were no worse or better than the low days I have now. It's always relative to where we are. So a

00:12:12.720 bad show back then was bad and it still is bad. And a really good show back then, which would be

00:12:20.060 terrible for me now, still a great feeling back then relative to who I was.

00:12:25.940 You said, you said, uh, when you connect with young up and coming artists, that's one thing

00:12:31.360 I've really noticed that you do so well. And, and I really admire this. I need to let you know

00:12:36.540 is for somebody as busy as you are. And somebody that I, that I imagine is as popular and, and, uh,

00:12:43.800 have, have all sorts of poll for your attention. You are so incredibly good at connecting with other

00:12:50.300 people, whether it's me, or I was listening to your podcast a week or two ago, and there was a young

00:12:55.920 man, he was struggling with something. I can't remember exact, maybe it was a woman. I can't

00:12:59.260 remember exactly what it was, but you challenged that individual to do something. Again, I can't

00:13:03.860 remember. And you said, you call me and you let me know that you've done this thing. And I hear you

00:13:10.520 say that all the time. And now you're talking about connecting with these up and coming artists.

00:13:14.980 I mean, I'm impressed with that. Like, how do you make that work where you actually are a man in

00:13:19.320 high demand and yet you always find time for individual people?

00:13:23.780 Because that's my fuel. That's what keeps me going. Because if I didn't connect to that guy,

00:13:31.100 we talked to, you talked about on the podcast. Um, if I never get feedback and I just say this

00:13:36.640 stuff into a microphone, it just disappears into the cosmos. And I never know if the advice was good

00:13:41.640 or bad. And, and years go by, it starts to, to lose its power. It starts to lose its substance.

00:13:48.560 But if that guy emails me six months later and goes, Hey man, I took your advice and you know

00:13:54.540 what? I'm actually feeling better. Or I took your advice and it actually got a little bit worse.

00:13:58.800 Well, that's feedback in the same way, but at least I know, okay, the things are changing. Like the ball

00:14:04.140 is rolling. Things matter. And it makes me want to fire up the mic and, and do another podcast.

00:14:10.140 Yeah. It's, it's, it's, um, something that I admire a lot. I'm like, man, that's awesome.

00:14:16.080 He still connects with that person or trying to have that person reach out. I definitely need to

00:14:20.120 do a better job at that. You do, you do, Ryan. And whenever you get together with your guys

00:14:24.880 and they all come together, that is, that is that personal feedback that you're hearing.

00:14:30.020 And you're hearing guys come up to you and they're meeting you. You're like, man,

00:14:32.660 your podcast changed my life. And you see them wearing your gear and it's like order of a man hat on

00:14:37.680 their head. And, and that feedback, if you didn't have it, take all that away, take out social media,

00:14:43.100 take out any comments. And you're just speaking into a microphone. I don't know how much longer

00:14:46.920 you do it. Yeah. I've thought about that actually. I, at times I think, you know, I would still do it.

00:14:52.020 I would do it because again, it's intrinsically valuable if I got no feedback whatsoever, but in

00:14:56.920 reality, like if I knew that it wasn't impacting people, it, the, the, the tank would be on empty

00:15:03.180 pretty quickly. I imagine. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True.

00:15:07.120 One thing I've noticed too, that you've done, and I don't know how long this has been going,

00:15:11.380 but man, I've been listening to your sermons as well. And they're, they are killer. Like how long

00:15:17.680 have you been preaching and sharing that message the way that you have?

00:15:23.560 Yeah, man. Well, first of all, thank you. Um, that's something I'm passionate about and I've

00:15:28.100 actually loved doing it, but that, that happened when, after we lost my son River, we, Amber and I,

00:15:36.420 my wife got invited to a couple of different churches to kind of sit in a, in a couch setting

00:15:42.260 with a pastor. And he just kind of asked questions and we talked about a few things.

00:15:46.100 And I did one with this pastor in Indiana on zoom. And he said, Hey, could I'll just ask you some

00:15:53.560 questions, super casual. And you just answer some questions during COVID when no one was meeting in

00:15:58.160 person? And I was like, yeah, sure. I did it on zoom. Well, then, um, later on, he, he just like

00:16:05.140 eight months later, he messaged me and said, Hey, do you want to do that zoom thing again? We'll get

00:16:09.140 on and just, I'll play it for the congregation on the screen, ask you some questions. And I had this

00:16:14.240 feeling. And I said, I said, man, Ted, I would love, first of all, I'd love to do that, but would you

00:16:20.520 be open for me flying there to Indiana, getting up on the stage and actually trying to deliver a

00:16:27.460 sermon? Yeah. And he goes, he goes, do you got something you're working on? And I said, yeah,

00:16:32.240 I kind of, I've been writing up something and he goes, send it to me and then we'll talk the smart

00:16:36.800 guy, you know? Yeah. He wanted to vet that first. Yeah. He wanted to vet it. So, so I sent him like

00:16:41.700 a little draft I've been working on. And he goes, he goes, man, I think I'd, I'd like to give it a

00:16:46.460 shot. Let's do it. So I flew to Indiana. I got up there and I was so nervous. I remember going

00:16:52.380 into the parking lot that Sunday morning and I saw people driving, you know, pulling into the

00:16:58.540 parking lot and they're stepping out of their cars with their Bibles and a little notepads.

00:17:02.400 And I suddenly got really nervous. I was like, Whoa, this is, this is heavy. This is different than

00:17:07.120 a concert. I'm, I'm replacing someone's, uh, Sunday morning word from God.

00:17:14.800 Yeah. It's, it's a little bit weightier. I would say, man, I was like, I was like, man,

00:17:20.780 I don't think I, I'm not, I'm not worthy of something like this, but I went in, I was super

00:17:26.620 nervous. I had two sermons that morning and, um, delivered one at like 9am and one at like 11.

00:17:32.220 And, but then I walked away and my first thought was, I can't wait to do this again.

00:17:39.320 That's how you knew you're like, this is how I'm so excited about this. You said something.

00:17:43.920 I think, I think, uh, you said it before we hit record. Cause I was talking about being nervous

00:17:49.580 about a post that I had made and you said, that's how, you know, yeah. Yeah. That's that,

00:17:55.340 is that what works for you? Is it the nerves? Yeah. Yeah. That's the indicator for me. It's like

00:18:00.580 super nervous, not, not in a stressful way, but in a, in a, like a, you know, that positive anxiety

00:18:07.060 where you're like anxious. Yeah. I'm anxious and I can't wait to do it. Um, and you know,

00:18:12.860 I used to feel that in high school football. I used to feel it, you know, all these different

00:18:17.160 events in my life, you know, you feel it at your wedding day. Um, but that's how, you know,

00:18:21.720 this matters. This matters to me. I think it's a powerful just because in, in modern times,

00:18:28.700 it seems like we spend so much time running away from those feelings. If we're uncomfortable,

00:18:35.420 if it's awkward, if there's any sort of potential negative ramification from what you're about to

00:18:40.760 step into or any sort of risk, it's like, no, no, no, not for me. And it's so easy because there's

00:18:46.060 no consequence for taking the path of least resistance, which is what most people take,

00:18:50.600 unfortunately. Absolutely. And it's so interesting if you think about it in terms of, uh, our ancestors

00:18:58.420 and that, that old, that ancient feeling of adrenaline that starts running through us. It's like,

00:19:04.300 okay, your body knows before your mind does, this is important time to get focused time to get this

00:19:10.900 right. And so you, you get nervous and it's, it's like you were talking about before we hit record,

00:19:15.840 even if you're just an Instagram post, if you start getting nervous, that's your body saying,

00:19:20.440 this matters focus. We're going to get every, everything right that you say in this, in this post.

00:19:26.280 It's interesting. You said, uh, when you were going to go speak, you, you had this feeling of not

00:19:32.760 being worthy. I want to drill into that because I feel that every day. I feel that when I talk about

00:19:39.320 being a better man, I'm like, who am I to say what it is? Like, I know my own personal struggles,

00:19:43.800 you know, some of my own personal struggles, like I'm not the guy. And yet I still do it because I

00:19:49.100 got, but I had to fight against that, that feeling of not being worthy of sharing a message or having

00:19:54.640 this type of conversation. And I know so many men feel the same way and it causes them to pause

00:20:01.620 and to retreat and not move into something that could be really powerful for themselves

00:20:05.980 and for other people too. Man, you said it, you got to fight against it. And as men, when we talk

00:20:14.040 about what hill we're going to, we're going to die on, that's, that's one of those hills right there.

00:20:19.500 You got to fight against your own feeling of unworthiness. I have lived with that Ryan for years.

00:20:26.060 I've lived with that feeling. And I, and just like you, I learned at an early age to fight it

00:20:31.920 and it was a good instinct to fight it. I remember the first time I started catching popularity as a

00:20:37.900 musician, I had a song that was about my, the college, my alma mater, Texas A&M. And so I had

00:20:44.500 this one song about the school and it was popular enough to put, to bring a bunch of people to a dance

00:20:50.860 all for me to play, but no one knew any other song. So I'm playing music leading up to the one song,

00:20:58.720 you know? Right. And the whole time I'm playing all these other songs, I'm just thinking that any

00:21:03.800 minute they're all going to realize I'm a fraud. Any minute they're going to realize it's not worth

00:21:07.880 it. It wasn't worth their $10 to get into this place. This guy is a fraud. He's not worthy of my

00:21:13.480 time. I just constantly could not get that thought out of my head. And that's, that thought still

00:21:19.500 plagues me to this day that as I play a concert, someone's going to be there realizing this guy is

00:21:26.060 not all he's cracked up to be. It was just, it's all a lie. And I finally figured it out, you know,

00:21:31.440 and that that's in my head constantly. I got to reject that thought.

00:21:36.600 Yeah. I, I had one person reach out to me one time. They didn't even reach out. They just posted

00:21:41.200 something negative on my, on Facebook or wherever it was. And I don't remember a whole lot of that

00:21:45.940 because I kind of brush it off, but the comment was like, you're not as good as you think you are,

00:21:53.440 or you want to be, or you're highlighting something along those lines. And I remember this,

00:21:58.360 this was a big pivotal moment for me. And I just said, you're right. Like you're a hundred percent

00:22:03.880 right. I fall short of my expectation every single day. And I don't know what it was just for some

00:22:11.580 reason for me to own that and say, yeah, you're right. I, I am short of what I say we should be.

00:22:18.220 It just changed for me. It doesn't matter. It took away the power of somebody thinking less of me.

00:22:23.040 Like, yeah, you're right. I'm, I suck at this. Absolutely.

00:22:27.440 Dude, that is so good. That is so awesome that that's a pivotal moment for you in your mind.

00:22:32.720 And I could totally relate to that. And, and it's like, it's like my haters on social media

00:22:38.560 when they come at me, most of the time I agree with them. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's

00:22:43.240 a lot of truth in what you're saying. So yeah, I feel that. And I think we need it. It keeps us,

00:22:48.340 keeps us humble. And if I ever start losing that reality, there's a problem.

00:22:53.320 What, so what do people, what do people hate on you for? Like, I, it's just, it's hard for me.

00:22:58.660 It's so, it's such a foreign concept that you would follow somebody on social media and you hate them

00:23:05.700 apparently and everything they stand for and everything they are. And then you take time

00:23:10.240 out of your day to let them know exactly why that is. Like, what, what are these people saying?

00:23:14.780 Like, what, what is it that you get hate for? Is it your message of God? Is it like, what is it?

00:23:20.480 Um, well, yeah, that's, I guess that that's a, that's a completely different side. Like the,

00:23:25.420 the, the message of God, um, when people hate on that, it's like, well, okay. Yeah. I,

00:23:31.700 I totally understand that you're going to, you know, you're just rejecting that. Um,

00:23:36.300 I'm, I'm actually pulling up iTunes right now. I have to see if I could find something that's

00:23:41.560 recent. So this is, uh, November 21st. So as we're recording, this is only like two weeks old,

00:23:47.180 but it here's a one star review on my new album. And it says terrible. And the review says,

00:23:54.300 I wish I could give negative stars, all caps, fake country. It's so strange, man. Like,

00:24:04.020 yeah. So there you go. It's like, they, they really, they really hated it enough to go and

00:24:10.020 review it with one star fake country. That, that is, that is clever though. It's like,

00:24:17.640 I wish I could take away star or whatever. Pretty good actually. But it's like, you know,

00:24:22.980 there's artists, there's musicians that I don't like, there's movies I don't enjoy.

00:24:27.060 And you know what I do? I don't listen to them. Like period. So right. I'm like, yeah,

00:24:31.240 I don't like that. Delete the end. Cause I have more important things to worry about.

00:24:37.700 You're so right. And also there, there, there does come a sense of maturity that allows you to do that.

00:24:44.240 And I think, um, the younger version of myself was more likely to be the guy that's like, yeah,

00:24:52.040 fake country, man, which I can give negative stars. I'd be lying. If I said, I have none of that,

00:24:58.100 that kind of stuff in my head that I would never do that. The 17, 17 year old version of myself. Yeah.

00:25:04.620 Would have done something like that.

00:25:06.000 You said something a little while back and you, you, you talked about, and I can't remember if it

00:25:11.580 was on your Instagram. I don't think it was on your personal Instagram page. I think it was

00:25:16.060 with Yee Yee. And you had said that you're going to align the message more with your Christ centered

00:25:24.980 message that you've been sharing. Do you remember that? It wasn't that long ago. It doesn't seem like,

00:25:30.320 yeah. And you said, we're going to start reflecting that message more on our business. And I wanted to

00:25:37.140 ask you that about how people resonated with that or how they responded to that. If there was some

00:25:42.080 pushback on that and how that came across. We, we actually, um, my brother Tyler and I actually

00:25:46.900 talked about that same thing today because of this whole mess with Balenciaga. Right. Right. And it's

00:25:53.980 like, well, this is just one more reason to lean into our faith and say, this is, this is where we

00:25:59.580 stand. And we're not going to compromise this in any terms. Like we're not going to compromise it

00:26:04.980 because we accidentally hired the wrong ad agency or the wrong photographer. We're not going to slip

00:26:09.820 up in that way. Um, because this day and age, people need to know more than ever exactly where

00:26:16.180 you stand. Here's, here's the point where we will not compromise. And this is like, this, this is our

00:26:23.080 faith. This is what we believe. And this is not going to be compromised. So country, our pop,

00:26:28.640 you're okay. You have your, have your subjective opinions about that, but here's where it's

00:26:33.540 objective. This is our faith. Yeah. That's powerful. How do you get to that point where,

00:26:39.500 where you have that sort of faith or you have that sort of testimony? Cause I know there's a lot of

00:26:43.760 people who are really struggling with their faith. Maybe they've never found God. Um, and they're

00:26:50.800 searching, or maybe they had God in their life at some point and something tragic and horrific

00:26:56.400 happened. Maybe even with like you, with your own personal situation with your son and, and they've,

00:27:02.320 you know, condemned God because of that. Like how, how do you recommend somebody get on this path of

00:27:07.340 finding that sort of faith? Yeah. That's such a great question. And a lot of people are asking that

00:27:13.800 and I was one of them a hundred percent. And I think, um, speaking to, to our American audience,

00:27:21.360 especially the idea of cultural Christianity is pretty big. It's pretty prominent. Like,

00:27:27.780 yeah, man, I'm a Christian. Why just born and raised, man, born and raised God, America, guns,

00:27:34.000 country. That's me. You know, like that, that's a good church. You know, that's, that's what I do.

00:27:38.700 Love Jesus. Love my guns. You know, like that's just a thing. And that was me. And, but you don't

00:27:45.860 really know what it means. And then when you really need to draw on it, you're like, suddenly you go,

00:27:51.820 I don't know. I don't know why God would allow bad things to happen. In fact, I'm kind of mad at

00:27:56.440 him. If he is there, if there is a God, I'm kind of mad at him. Like, why would a good God allow

00:28:01.680 bad things to happen? So that's what that cultural Christianity turns into. That's what it evolves into. 0.98

00:28:07.060 Unless you find the foundation of it. So for me, um, I hit rock bottom and, you know, we were,

00:28:13.900 my family, we were, we were struggling. We, we lost our little boy. Um, everything was on the

00:28:19.980 surface was great until that. And then I, I could not pull myself out of this tailspin. Um, I, I ended

00:28:27.380 up in some extremely dark days, dark nights, wasn't talking about it. No one else knew on the outside,

00:28:34.720 nobody in the public knew about my, my dark days. And I was constantly trying to fix it with self-help

00:28:41.180 that I had learned and learned and learned and learned and become indoctrinated with. It's another

00:28:45.260 Christian American ideal is that I could fix it. I could do it. I could do it. I'll take care of my 0.98

00:28:52.000 family. I could recover from this. I could, I can handle it. Just sweep it under the rug. Um, I'll be the

00:28:58.920 rock lean on me. I got this. And so I was, you know, like waking up early. I was doubling down

00:29:03.900 on my reading. I was, I was working out. I was trying to eat healthy. I was like measuring my

00:29:08.120 food with the, with the scale. I was, you know, importing my macros on, uh, my fitness pal app. I

00:29:14.540 was, I was like reading devotionals, doing my meditations, do my visualizations, doing my

00:29:19.300 everything Asians, all the Asians. Uh, and, and that worked before tragedy. It kept me in great

00:29:27.340 shape. It kept me great, uh, really sharp spiritually until self-help couldn't help

00:29:33.280 anymore. When it was so dark and my bottom was so low that I couldn't find my way out. And that's

00:29:38.540 finally, finally, when I had to just say, God, I, I can't do this anymore. Take this from me. Take

00:29:45.540 Jesus says, come to me, all you who are weary and burdened and I'll give you rest. Well, I wasn't

00:29:50.720 coming to him until then. And I said, God, just take this from me. Take this burden. I am

00:29:57.180 your servant. And in, in America, we, that kind of surrender is a bad idea. Like we look

00:30:03.940 at that as weak. I hate, I, I personally, this is where I struggle, man. And we've had

00:30:08.460 these, I like everything about me is like, so rent, what are you talking about? I got

00:30:14.320 this. Just like you were saying, I don't need, you've given me everything. Like I believe

00:30:18.760 in God. God's given me everything. Now it's on me, you know, now it's my turn and it hasn't

00:30:23.080 worked. Yeah. And so in the Bible, we see revealed over and over stories of men like

00:30:29.160 that, big, strong men like King David, who eventually were so strong that they couldn't

00:30:35.220 save themselves. And so it comes into this word surrender when surrender, although it

00:30:40.200 seems like a weak word, it's actually an action. It's an action that we stand up like

00:30:45.980 Jesus in the Bible. Always. It's always a call forward. Come to me, follow me. Are you

00:30:51.840 ready to be healed? It's always a stand up. He finds us where we are, but then it's a command

00:30:57.460 to come forward. And so, so many times we just get this idea that we just want to just wallow

00:31:03.880 in the mud in our own muck. And, and the cultural Christianity says, it's okay. God loves you where

00:31:10.140 you are. God's come. God's waiting on you. God needs, God loves you. God is love. He's

00:31:16.200 coming to find you. You can hear the inflection in my voice. It pisses me off because that's

00:31:21.540 not the God has revealed in the Bible. God doesn't say, I love you. I'm just going to come

00:31:25.020 and I'm going to come lay in the mud with you. Are you hurting? I'm so sorry. Let's just

00:31:29.120 lay here together. No, every time God says, stand up, you are greatly loved. Follow me.

00:31:36.400 Let's go. Every time. And, and as I started reading the Bible, I started seeing, oh, that's

00:31:43.600 a different God than I was taught. That's a different God than I see on Instagram. It's

00:31:47.500 a different God than we talk about in Tik TOK. Like this is a big God who's sovereign, who's

00:31:52.900 in, who's in control, who's purposeful, who has a plan that he's working for good, that

00:31:57.700 knows everything and says, let's go mount up. Follow me. He's a leader. He's a war leader.

00:32:03.460 That's the God revealed in the Bible. And that's the God that saved me.

00:32:07.460 I think one of the things that I personally, like I can't speak for everybody else, but

00:32:11.060 I I've talked with enough guys that I know what a lot of men are dealing with. And I

00:32:14.760 personally am too, that when I get, you know, kicked in the balls by life, whether it's by

00:32:20.960 my own making or, or just some external circumstance, I tend to fall into like, I deserve this.

00:32:28.460 And I feel like I will wallow in something longer than necessary because I'm punishing

00:32:35.540 myself. And I know a lot of guys are doing that. They're in dark places right now. They're like,

00:32:41.780 no, I don't deserve to be happy. You know, I don't deserve to be successful. No, I don't

00:32:44.820 deserve a family. No, I don't deserve this. No, I don't deserve that. And they beat themselves

00:32:48.800 up. Have you experienced that?

00:32:51.020 You're right on. Absolutely. I think it'd be weird if you didn't experience it. And so this

00:32:55.700 is, this is where my God and my Christianity comes in because, because unlike cultural

00:33:01.020 American, God is love. God is a rainbow Christianity, but God revealed in the Bible says you're not

00:33:08.000 worthy. You're right. You aren't worthy, but I choose you anyway. I adopt you as a son. I

00:33:15.640 give you inheritance to my kingdom, even though you didn't deserve it. And so when we hear that,

00:33:21.040 when I hear that and I feel like I'm not worthy and I don't deserve it, I feel like then I see my

00:33:27.420 identity is vertical, not horizontal. My identity is with Christ. He made me. He does. He decides who

00:33:35.800 I am, not me. He created me the way I am. He decides my identity. And so I say, I'm yours. I'm

00:33:43.380 your servant. You're my king. I'm your soldier. I'll follow you. And then when we know we weren't

00:33:49.660 worthy, but he loved us anyway, he chose us anyway, that's when we move forward out of the

00:33:55.020 mud. I think that falls in line with what we were talking about earlier, where it's just embracing

00:34:00.580 the reality. You know, it's just some, it's just not something that we're comfortable with to say,

00:34:05.680 I'm, you know, we, we say it on one, on one hand, I'm not worthy, but on the other hand, I'm like,

00:34:11.520 well, maybe I can be worthy. You know, maybe I, maybe I can do enough of the right things.

00:34:17.000 Maybe I can say what I need to say, pray the way I need to pray, act the way I need to act,

00:34:22.240 serve as many people as I possibly can. And somehow then I've redeemed myself.

00:34:28.580 Yeah. And that's a lie because we never can. There never is enough we could do to make ourselves

00:34:35.780 finally feel worthy. Like at what point do we go? Oh yeah. I finally crossed the threshold of

00:34:41.660 worthiness to myself. I finally have done it. I finally feel worthy. If we, instead,

00:34:46.900 if we march through life and go, I'm not worthy, but God makes me worthy through his identity in me.

00:34:52.880 And I find my identity through him. And he loves me anyway. He's chosen me anyway,

00:34:57.560 even though I was just a dirty rag to him. Then we march forward and we go, I'm ready to go.

00:35:04.020 I'm ready to fight now. I'm ready to take that hill now.

00:35:06.340 So this message is important to me just because I've recognized that even though by world subjective

00:35:16.020 standards, like I've achieved success, right? You've got a successful podcast, you've got the

00:35:21.840 income to go with it. You've got the vacations and the things, and things are taken care of for the

00:35:26.560 most part. And yet I don't feel better than I did when I started this eight years ago. I don't feel

00:35:32.560 any more worthy. I'm like, I still have more room to go, you know? And I can't find the thing that

00:35:37.520 I'm chasing because it's probably just not there. There's nothing to catch.

00:35:43.060 He won't. You're not going to find it. And on those terms, on your terms of worthiness,

00:35:49.800 you won't find it. And so you got to change the terms. It's the wrong game. You're on the wrong path.

00:35:55.840 I'm saying that to you. I'm also saying it to myself. I'm preaching it to myself as well.

00:36:00.120 So one question I've had, and I like having this conversation. I told you I wanted to have

00:36:04.960 this conversation. It's not one that I think we've ever had explicitly on the podcast before

00:36:08.780 about God and faith and finding this. Yes. But one question I have about, I have a lot of questions,

00:36:15.420 but one question I've had is if God created us and he wants us to follow him and worship him,

00:36:23.940 and I'm not saying this, I'm saying this with sincere, like, this is a sincere question.

00:36:30.460 It's not a gotcha type question. Is God a narcissist? Like, why would he, you know what

00:36:36.420 I'm saying? Like, why would he create us and then say, follow me, worship me? Like why, like why,

00:36:41.900 what is the point of that? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

00:36:45.200 All right, man. Let me take a pause or a step away from the conversation very quickly. The

00:36:51.120 countdown to the iron council opening has begun. We open next Thursday, December 15th. And if you've

00:36:58.660 been sitting on the fence about joining this powerful band of brothers, then I suggest you

00:37:02.380 get off the fence and get yourself into the game. Now I know it's easy for me to say, and of course

00:37:08.020 I'm a bit biased, but I think the other 1500 members would agree that when you join forces with us,

00:37:14.400 you as a man are going to unlock access to the men and also the frameworks that are really going to

00:37:20.580 help you take 2023 to the next level. So if you're trying to improve your health, build your bank

00:37:26.460 account, foster friendships and romantic relationships, or you just want to start

00:37:31.860 thinking about life and acting in a more effective way, this is the place for you head to order a man.com

00:37:38.180 slash iron council to watch a very short video. You can drop your name in the email,

00:37:43.840 excuse me, your name and your email in the form. And then I will send you an email as soon as we

00:37:49.060 open up on the 15th of December. Again, that's order a man.com slash iron council. Do that

00:37:55.940 immediately right after the show for now, I'll get back to my conversation with Granger.

00:38:01.020 So imagine, uh, imagine there's this, this incredible museum, right? We, you and I go and

00:38:08.680 we visit this just crazy art museum. It's, it's amazing. And there's one, there's one painting in

00:38:14.040 the center of this museum. That's just like, takes it all. It's, it's worth it all. It's like most

00:38:18.280 world-renowned picture. Just blow you away if you look at it. So me and you walk into this museum and,

00:38:23.980 and we're, we're getting close to this main picture, right? And as we get close to it,

00:38:29.740 we're, we're, me and you are scrolling through TikTok, just scrolling, just mindlessly scrolling.

00:38:33.820 We're going to miss the whole thing. And we're walking past the painting. Now, if the painting

00:38:38.500 could talk and it says, Hey, Ryan, look at me, look to me. I'm the reason you came.

00:38:46.240 I'm going to give you fulfillment. I'm going to give you memories. Like you'll never forget.

00:38:50.820 I'm going to give you joy. Like you've never known before. Look at me. Stop looking at your phone.

00:38:55.420 If the photo could say, if the picture could say that, would it be narcissistic for it to say that?

00:39:00.140 I know where you're going with that. And where I get hung up is the picture. In this case,

00:39:06.800 if the picture created me so that I could look at it, that's where I get hung up. You know what

00:39:12.360 I'm saying? Like if the picture says you're going to have fulfillment by being here, I'm like,

00:39:15.880 I got it. But you're the one that created this. You're the one that created me. So I could solely

00:39:21.440 worship you. You see? Okay. Okay. So the thing about that is, and that's kind of a different,

00:39:26.420 that's kind of a different scenario. The thing about that is that comes down to why do we suffer?

00:39:32.020 Right? Like, why weren't we just created in just perfect bliss? Why do we suffer? Well,

00:39:38.340 I love to think about it in terms of football. So why does a, why does an NFL player hold up that

00:39:45.500 Superbowl trophy and cry? What did those tears mean? Those tears of joy. Why did the tears come?

00:39:51.300 Well, I tell you why they come. It comes from, from years of struggle. It comes from years of pain

00:39:57.780 and, and almost making it and not making it and getting those late phone calls to get drafted.

00:40:03.280 And then that same year, the year of the Superbowl, it comes from all that work in the locker room,

00:40:09.000 the disputes that they had within the locker room with the players. It comes from that loss at week

00:40:13.220 two, the team that they shouldn't have lost to. It comes week five when their star player got injured

00:40:18.380 and they didn't think they were going to pull it off. And they did in overtime. It comes from all

00:40:22.520 those sufferings come together. And then they win the Superbowl and they look back and they go,

00:40:26.760 we did it. It's worth it because of the suffering, because of the suffering. Now imagine the team

00:40:33.100 now, just no adversity. They win every game, 60 to nothing. Nothing matters. You win the Superbowl.

00:40:39.020 It's just not that sweet anymore. So this is just my opinion, but we go through life and God enters,

00:40:45.060 he brings suffering into our lives. So we struggle through it. And one day we get to heaven and we

00:40:49.740 look at him and we go, you saved us through that. It's worth it. It's worth all the pain. It was worth

00:40:56.920 the tears for this. Otherwise it just doesn't matter. Yeah. That's a good point. I get, I, I think,

00:41:04.200 you know, it's easy to feel that way when you're, when you're down and you're going through hardship

00:41:09.540 to, to see it. I've even told my wife this, I'm like, I don't know what part of the plan this is.

00:41:15.080 You know, like I, we had that conversation over the past couple of weeks. It's like,

00:41:18.600 I have no idea what part of the plan I got. I'm, I'm faithful that there is a plan.

00:41:22.940 Like I'm faithful that it is part of the plan. I just don't know what part of the plan this is.

00:41:27.980 And it's miserable at times going through this. And I know there's a lot of people feeling the same

00:41:31.840 way, man. I don't, I, this is just me speaking and this is just opinion, but I don't think it's that

00:41:37.580 far of a stretch to see why you have gone through that or anyone listening has gone through something.

00:41:43.240 And the, the reason I say it is, is it name your favorite, your favorite fictional book.

00:41:49.300 You know, it's, it always has an antagonist. Your favorite movie always has the bad guy.

00:41:55.320 The, the reason it's your favorite movie is because of the struggle that your favorite character went

00:42:01.060 through to get to the redemption, take away the struggle. It's not your favorite movie anymore.

00:42:06.060 And, and so take your story specifically, you've talked about, you know, on your, on your Instagram,

00:42:11.880 your struggle with alcohol, right? It was super vulnerable and honest for you to post that.

00:42:16.600 And I love that you did that. Now, now fast forward 20 years and you're sitting on the porch

00:42:21.600 with your wife and you've recovered from it and you've grown from it and you're sitting there,

00:42:26.980 you're watching the sun go down. Now tell me, is it not better in 20 years, as you look back,

00:42:32.820 overcoming some of these adversities and you're sitting there with her and you go, we did it.

00:42:38.240 You got grandkids running around playing football in the yard. And you look at her, we go,

00:42:41.880 we did it. Is it not better because of the struggle?

00:42:45.820 Let's take away the alcohol.

00:42:46.960 A hundred percent better.

00:42:48.160 Right. Yeah.

00:42:49.380 Right. And also I feel like not only is it better for me, and this is actually what's given

00:42:56.880 me purpose in dark times, especially where I've been blessed to have a platform like I do and a

00:43:02.540 platform like you do too, is it's better for other people to actually see me go through this.

00:43:10.100 Like it's better for the guys that are following along to, to see where I am and to see mistakes

00:43:16.640 I've made and things that I've dealt with and then overcome it. That's more inspirational to your

00:43:21.480 point about a movie. That's going to be more inspiring than me having this perfect seamless

00:43:27.960 life, you know, that, that they're maybe trying to strive for. It's, it's better for them.

00:43:34.300 Yeah. Well, let me make a bold statement here and you, somebody can quote tweet me or put it on,

00:43:40.220 you know, write me hate mail, write whatever they want.

00:43:42.920 They will. Don't worry about that.

00:43:44.200 You can think of me, however, in whatever dark light you want, but I will say this

00:43:47.500 with confidence. I am a better man after losing my son. I say that in total confidence and in total

00:43:56.540 boldness. That doesn't mean that I'm glad he's gone. I'm glad it happened. It doesn't mean that

00:44:01.940 I'm not, I don't grieve. It doesn't mean that that wasn't the worst day of my life. It doesn't

00:44:05.980 mean that I wouldn't trade anything to have one more minute with him on this earth, but I am better

00:44:11.560 for going through that struggle. I am a better man than I was back then. I'm a better man than

00:44:17.760 I would have been if he was still here because I know a lot more about me and my life because of

00:44:24.060 that loss. Did you, have you always had your faith? I mean, is this something that's always been a part

00:44:30.760 of your life or was it enhanced and developed through those experiences? Like how did this come

00:44:36.760 be? Yeah. I was, I was a weak, uh, cultural Christian. I couldn't defend the faith. I could 0.85

00:44:43.160 say, yeah, I love God. Um, I could say, yeah, God is real. I could, I could give you some, you know,

00:44:48.360 maybe a few quotes out of the Bible, but, uh, I didn't have any fruits from it. There was, there was

00:44:53.140 nothing, nothing tangible. There's nothing significant behind it. It was fast food. It wasn't a steak

00:44:59.460 dinner. And, um, it, it, and we see this with so many people, it takes extreme pain, extreme struggle

00:45:07.640 to, to refine us. It's, it's the same thing with, with fine metals. How do we refine silver through

00:45:14.320 extreme heat? How do you make a diamond? It's the most cliche thing ever. Extreme pressure. It's cliche,

00:45:20.760 but it's actually true. It's the same with us. It takes pressure. It takes heat. That's how we refine

00:45:26.740 ourselves. Give me somebody that's never been through anything. No adversity, no grief, no

00:45:31.960 problems, no addictions, nothing, no breakups, no divorce, nothing in their life. Give me that

00:45:38.300 person. And then give me a, someone that's been through a bunch, maybe been in prison, maybe had

00:45:43.960 to work his way out of it. Maybe lost his parents at a young age, been through addiction, whatever.

00:45:48.820 Give me that person to stand beside me in a fight. I want that guy all day long. I don't want,

00:45:54.480 I don't want any bit of that guy that's never been through a struggle.

00:45:57.540 Well, it goes back to what you were saying about the movie, right? It's like, we see the guy who

00:46:03.240 stands up. I, you know, I, I often, uh, we'll talk about, um, like gladiator, you know, you think

00:46:09.700 about this, this general who has everything taken away from him, including his wife and son

00:46:15.240 and is imprisoned. And is, you know, this, this gladiator now and him rise back up from that.

00:46:21.780 Or you think about Braveheart, William Wallace, who has everything taken away from, and then

00:46:26.920 leads this, this army eventually leads this army overcomes all of those obstacles. If they didn't

00:46:31.800 have those obstacles, there's no story there. There's no meat. There's no substance there to

00:46:36.420 that individual. You can't have it. Two of the greatest movies of all time.

00:46:41.400 Oh, the best, the best. You were talking about our favorite movies. Those are them.

00:46:43.880 By the way, that is objectively true for anybody listening to order a man. Those ha those two

00:46:49.880 movies have to be on your top five. If you're going to be here, if you're going to call yourself

00:46:53.180 a man, they have to be on your top five. I thousand percent agree. Uh, in those two movies,

00:46:59.900 the perfect examples to sum up this whole conversation. What, what drove those two men?

00:47:06.540 It was extreme grief. Both of them lost their wives. Gladiator lost it. Maximus lost his kids.

00:47:13.220 I mean, going through those extreme times is what made them into the men that we then love

00:47:18.800 in the film. That's crazy. Yeah. So then we talk about the God thing, the God question.

00:47:24.620 We end up in heaven one day and we look back. Are we better off because of the struggle we had on earth

00:47:30.620 or should we just have an easy life? And then we end up in heaven and we go, oh, this is cool. God,

00:47:34.660 where's the fishing hole? Yeah. You know, do you have any four-wheelers up here, God?

00:47:39.820 Or do we get there and we just, we just go, God, you saved me. You saved me.

00:47:46.180 What better feeling would that be? No doubt. Most of the time when we,

00:47:51.660 when we talk about redemption, right? The redemption story, guys getting back up,

00:47:56.280 getting back after it all the time on the podcast. And, you know, usually it's the self-help stuff.

00:48:01.320 It's like, well, you know, you got to get up early and go to the gym and plan out your day.

00:48:06.260 And that's all true. That's all valuable stuff. But we don't really talk too much. And I never have

00:48:12.740 about finding your growth through faith. And so if somebody is struggling right now and feels like,

00:48:22.220 hey, I've done the self-help stuff. I've done the getting up. I've done the workout. I've done the

00:48:27.640 read so many pages of my book every single day and none of it seems to help. Where does, where does

00:48:32.340 a man turn? Like, how do you then begin to take a path that might actually lead you to real fulfillment

00:48:36.940 in your life? That is my story. And that is what, that was my journey in 2019. I was super into it.

00:48:45.920 I did everything I could. And I started listening to, the first thing I started listening to was

00:48:51.400 Billy Graham, some sermons on YouTube. And I was like, you know what, this, this is kind of cool.

00:48:56.240 This makes me feel a little bit better. There seems to be more to this stuff than I thought.

00:49:01.560 And then I started getting deeper to some deeper pastors that I started finding on YouTube through

00:49:07.400 the algorithm. And then one day I just, I just hit a goldmine on this, this YouTube video. I was

00:49:13.360 watching this guy named John Piper, this, this pastor, and he just hit me straight in the gut.

00:49:18.820 And I realized all in that moment that, uh, I wasn't worthy. I didn't deserve it. And I was loved

00:49:26.460 anyway. And I was called forward and I was called up and I was ready to be healed. And I couldn't do

00:49:32.800 it on my own as much as I tried. And I could, I proved it to myself. Hey, you can't do it, man.

00:49:38.320 I tried to get better on my own. I tried everything. I read every self-help book you could. I did, I ran,

00:49:44.180 you know, miles on the, on the road. I, I took cold showers. I meditated and, and did, uh,

00:49:50.620 devotionals and took medication. You know, I did everything. I could not fix myself on my terms or

00:49:58.580 earthly terms until I surrendered. And I went home and I opened up my Bible to Matthew one. That's the

00:50:03.480 beginning of the new Testament. And I said, God, I'm new to this and I can't do anything else. So

00:50:09.880 I'm giving it all to you. I'm surrendering it to you. I'm about to open this word and read it for

00:50:14.560 what it is your message to me. And I started reading right then. And I could not stop. I read

00:50:20.060 all the way to the end of that book and kept on going, finished the whole new Testament, started

00:50:24.740 over in the old Testament, just start reading, just, just feeding on it. Just like, God, what do you

00:50:28.580 have to tell me today? Cause I don't want to miss any of it. And I could be started

00:50:33.360 slowly becoming healed as I surrendered.

00:50:38.600 How one of the things you hear a lot about is like, and I think I even heard that post

00:50:43.960 that you referenced earlier that I made people like, Oh yeah, that the only true path is through

00:50:47.700 Christ. And you know, it's like, yeah, I believe that because I I'm that cultural Christianity

00:50:52.380 you're talking about. I'm like, yeah, that's right. I'm like, wait, hold on a second.

00:50:56.000 Hold on. Before I say that's right. Like, let me actually think if that's right. Like, do I

00:50:59.860 actually believe that? Or am I just nodding my head in agreement being a bobblehead? Yes.

00:51:03.920 Up and down. Because that's how I was raised. And I feel like it's that, like, I'm supposed

00:51:08.220 to say yes to that. But when I hear that, I want to know, like, how does, how does God

00:51:15.920 actually, like actually work in your life? Not like, Oh, he'll be with you. Like that feels

00:51:21.180 good. But like, what is he at? Like, what is he working in you? Like, what are the specifics

00:51:25.660 or like, how is he actually working in you or with you? Yeah. Well, that's, that's another

00:51:31.600 one of the lies that, that America has taught us on Instagram about, about God is that, Oh,

00:51:36.640 God's just with you. What does that mean? Like, what does that mean? Exactly. I don't know

00:51:40.840 what that means. Like he, he's going to, he wants you to stay healthy and he wants your

00:51:45.060 kids to be healthy and he wants your job to grow. And like, does he, because why am I still

00:51:49.640 getting sick? And why, why is my boss mad at me or whatever? And so that I referenced

00:51:56.280 the passage that, that hit me in the gut. And it was, it was the pastor was reading out

00:52:00.520 of John 14 and in John 14, the disciple says, Lord, why is it that you manifest yourself to

00:52:07.980 us, but not to the rest of the world? And Jesus answered him, if anyone loves me, he will

00:52:14.700 keep my word and my father will love him and we will come to him and make our home with him.

00:52:21.800 And then the pastor right there, he paused for a second. He said, that's not unconditional love.

00:52:27.500 That is profoundly conditional. Right. And then he starts over and he says, he reads it again.

00:52:33.940 If anyone loves me, he will keep my word and my father will love him. And then he adds in a way

00:52:40.340 that he doesn't love everybody. Oh, that's different than American Christianity. That's 0.98

00:52:46.700 very different. God, American teaches, teaches us God's unconditionally love for you. No matter

00:52:52.600 what, no matter what you do, no matter who you are, no matter. Now here's this passage says,

00:52:57.940 if anyone loves me, he'll keep my word. And so I thought right then I thought, what's his word?

00:53:03.300 I don't know it. I don't know any of it. So instantly I wanted to come home. It's like,

00:53:10.120 okay, Jesus, you're telling me that the way I show my love for you is by keeping your word.

00:53:15.160 And I don't know any of it. And that probably means I don't love you. And then that means

00:53:19.900 the father doesn't love me either. And that, that scared me. Now this is not like legalism. This isn't

00:53:26.320 like Judaism where you're, you're getting all legalism. Like I got to do this and stack up like 0.98

00:53:30.580 Santa Claus list, naughty or nice list. It's not that it's more, it's more of I am loved and I'm

00:53:37.580 not proving it. So that's why I wanted to go home and dive into the word. And as I started reading

00:53:42.700 the word, I started learning about this big sovereign God that is all planning, all purposing,

00:53:51.140 and that allows suffering to happen. So I stopped wondering, oh God, I thought you just wanted me to

00:53:57.680 stay healthy. I thought you wanted my family to be good and my job to stay prosperous. No, I learned

00:54:03.860 that God sometimes drags us through the mud so that we know he is in control, not us.

00:54:11.660 Do you feel like you can avoid being dragged through the mud if you learn the lessons you need to learn

00:54:18.400 before you need to be dragged through the mud?

00:54:21.160 Negative. I think that the dragging through the mud, I've had to learn. This is the heart,

00:54:25.880 maybe the hardest part. And the Bible says we need to rejoice in our suffering. So that means

00:54:32.440 when we get dragged through the mud, this is, I'm being refined for some reason.

00:54:37.940 There is a reason I'm being refined, but I've done this before. And I know that at the end of the

00:54:43.280 refining, I'm a better man. So when I get dragged through the mud, I don't say, how could I have avoided

00:54:49.180 the mud? I think, all right, God, here we go. Here's the mud again. I'm ready to see what you're

00:54:55.820 trying to show me at the end of this. That's interesting. So if I understand you correctly,

00:55:00.780 then has your view of pain and suffering, and I'm sure you've had more since your son passed away,

00:55:10.060 you know, is your view of suffering different? I mean, I can't imagine you

00:55:14.360 welcome it, but is it, is there something different where you see it in a different light

00:55:19.600 and it has more significance or meaning to it? Yeah. It's, it's, it, this is not nothing that's

00:55:24.600 going to make it easier. The Bible says that as Christians, we grieve with hope. And so for

00:55:30.020 instance, tomorrow I might get a phone call that says, Hey mom, uh, mom went to the doctor and it's

00:55:36.500 cancer. And it's bad. It's pretty bad spreading quickly. That very well could happen. Could happen to

00:55:43.500 anyone listening to anybody right now. I'm sure it will happen to somebody who's listening. Yes.

00:55:47.780 And, and I'm not going to look at that and go, Oh no, what did I not do? God, what did I mess up

00:55:54.560 in my life? Like, what did I fail to do that now I deserve this instead? I got to go, okay,

00:56:01.500 God, what, what are you needing to show me in this? What, what do I need to do to be the rock of this

00:56:08.600 family that people could lean on as we walk through this path, not knowing what tomorrow

00:56:13.760 brings, not knowing what this cancer is going to do to mom, but what do I need to do to be there for

00:56:18.660 her and for my wife and for my kids with their grandmother and my siblings, knowing that if

00:56:25.120 tomorrow brings death from this cancer, then I'm going to walk through it knowing that there is a

00:56:32.140 reason, there is a purpose. In second Corinthians, Paul says these light momentary afflictions. He

00:56:38.480 says that it's crazy. He says that because he's been going through so much up to that point. He says

00:56:42.540 these light momentary afflictions are preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond comparison.

00:56:49.640 So the suffering is preparing us. Well, that word, it's important to know what that word preparing

00:56:56.680 means to us. It means it matters. It means it's not pointless. It means that cancer is not

00:57:02.080 meaningless. It means that nothing is pointless. It always matters for something. So instead of saying

00:57:08.480 why, why is this happening? We change our question to what do I need to know from this? What do I need

00:57:14.340 to learn to be the better man on the other side of this? And I could say that as a man who's lost his

00:57:19.740 son and became a better man because of it. I like that both from a faith-based perspective, but also

00:57:29.220 a secular perspective. And I'll tell you why, because why is backward thinking? What, like,

00:57:38.820 why did this happen? When we say that, like, why me? Why does God hate me? Why did this happen to me?

00:57:44.140 That's backward thinking. What do I need to learn or what do I need to do now is forward thinking?

00:57:51.740 Because, you know, with the cancer situation you just shared, yeah, there's nothing you did or

00:57:57.300 didn't do, but there are circumstances that we have created for ourselves.

00:58:02.620 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so will we sit there in the mud? It goes, we'll take this conversation

00:58:08.220 full circle. Are we going to sit there in the mud and wallow in it? Are we going to do, you know,

00:58:12.160 what our calling says to do? And that's move forward, move upward. It's always moving. It's

00:58:17.820 always moving forward. I imagine you feel this way, but how does, how does your, your profession

00:58:26.580 tie into your faith? You know, I think about for me, um, where I do have faith in God, maybe more if

00:58:35.680 it's on a scale, like maybe more of the cultural Christianity than the Christianity you're talking

00:58:40.960 about, which is something I'm trying to work on in my own life. Um, but I, but I know that I'm called

00:58:48.020 to do this work and it's eternally meaningful, not just here while we're on this earth. There's,

00:58:53.080 there's an eternal meaning and purpose behind it. And I'm curious what that is for you and your line

00:58:57.760 of work. Hmm. Ever evolving. And it's, I think about that question, which I think it's healthy for all of

00:59:06.780 us to be constantly thinking about that question. Like what is, what does, if this faith really means

00:59:11.920 something to me, then how does it tie into all aspects of my life and maybe most importantly,

00:59:16.880 my career. And so, um, that has been, that's where the preaching has started coming in, supplementing

00:59:23.020 some of the preaching in, um, I've got a book coming out next year. That's, that's going to explain

00:59:27.060 a lot of what we talked about in depth. Um, and, and then other than that, I'm actually, um,

00:59:32.700 I'm starting seminary in January, starting taking seminary online classes.

00:59:37.600 You told, that's right. You texted me about that. I forgot about that. Yeah. So I'm just, um,

00:59:42.940 yeah, there are not a lot of people know about that yet, but that's, that's just, it's just kind

00:59:46.700 of one next step. It's like, uh, instead of it goes back to the, why God, it's like, what do I need

00:59:51.860 to be doing now? God. And certain things are just revealed slowly. So it's like, well, okay, well,

00:59:56.420 this seems like the logical next step. We'll start seminary. We'll see where that goes.

01:00:00.120 Yeah. And the music thing will just, uh, continue to evolve along with that.

01:00:04.940 Yeah. It seems like you, you, you're finding more integration between your faith and, and what

01:00:11.280 you're doing with your, your career pursuits and aspirations.

01:00:15.320 Totally. I, it's hard to have conversations like we're having right now when we realize so many people

01:00:22.060 are hurting. So many people are searching. So many people are lost and me go out and just play these,

01:00:27.720 these fun concerts all the time. And I know that there's a place for that. And there's a good,

01:00:32.700 there's a good time to have that. And people need music, but at the same time, um, what is a platform

01:00:39.120 that's more meaningful that I could actually dig in and talk to some of these men and women about

01:00:43.940 what they're struggling? And maybe we could kind of unpack it a little bit. Uh, what are those kinds

01:00:48.240 of opportunities? That's what I'm looking for right now.

01:00:50.720 You know, what's interesting too, about that is my background is financial planning and it was

01:00:56.120 meaningful. I think there's meaning and purpose in that. And then as I started doing more of this

01:01:00.240 order of man stuff, I found more meaning and more satisfaction by serving other people. Like I

01:01:05.900 genuinely believe that this, like it's, it's service, but also it's not, I can't separate it

01:01:13.320 from my own benefit either. And that's the beauty of it is that as we do the thing that we should be

01:01:18.980 doing and that maybe even we're called to do, then we're blessed by doing that in our own lives

01:01:23.220 are personally, we're blessed by doing that. In fact, more so I think when we're serving other

01:01:27.000 people. Oh yeah. There's, that's where the golden rule comes in. Yeah. Do unto others.

01:01:33.820 This is one of the most, this, we could do a whole podcast on, on what I'm about to say,

01:01:39.560 I think, because I've been thinking about it a lot lately, but love others as you love yourself,

01:01:45.700 right? Like that's essentially the golden rule. That's what Jesus says. Love others. Like you love

01:01:52.320 yourself. Well, most people think in their minds, well, first I need to love myself. That's what we

01:01:59.820 always think. That's where our mind goes. Right. And that's another lie. We all love ourselves

01:02:05.220 enough. Now I've unpacked this with people. I've my, you know, my brother-in-law's in prison. I've

01:02:11.320 unpacked this with him through the chat on the prison chat. Cause he told me I'm doing well

01:02:16.060 because I finally learned to love myself. And that's what AA teaches, right? I mean,

01:02:20.940 love yourself. Like that's like a big deal. So my argument, I want to challenge that,

01:02:25.900 that we all love ourselves already too much. And some people say, no, I actually hate myself.

01:02:32.500 Say, well, let's think about that. What is, what is hate? It's a passion, an extreme passion

01:02:38.560 for something or someone. That's what hate is. That's not the opposite of love. That's a close

01:02:43.760 brother of love. The opposite of love is indifference. Indifference. And no one is

01:02:48.980 indifferent to themselves. Right. Like, I don't care. Even hate is self-centric.

01:02:54.720 Yes. Yes, exactly. So it's like, no one's indifferent. Like I could sleep. I couldn't

01:02:59.460 sleep. I don't know. I could eat, not eat. I don't really care. I could have a job or not

01:03:03.580 have a job or be married or not. I don't really care. I'm just totally indifferent. No one is like

01:03:07.500 that. We are always self-centered, either hating or loving, but we're regardless, we're passionate

01:03:13.000 for ourselves. Here's where it gets crazy in my mind. I think the ultimate form of that

01:03:19.240 is suicide. It's the pinnacle of self-deprecation, of self-centeredness is suicide because it's like

01:03:30.120 at all cost, regardless of all the people around me, of everyone associated with me, regardless of all

01:03:37.140 them, I just want to find rest. Right. And I'll pay the ultimate price to ultimately satisfy my own

01:03:44.380 rest. Regardless of the external consequences of doing that. Because you're going to leave a wake

01:03:50.440 of collateral damage in your path by taking that. And I understand it. I've never been there personally.

01:03:56.380 I can't say I have, but I can certainly understand how somebody could get into that dark of a place

01:04:00.940 to, to, to feel like that. Yeah. And so then that puts a whole, with that understanding,

01:04:06.340 that foundation, that puts a whole new spin on love others as you love yourself. Cause then it's

01:04:12.440 like, Oh, I got to really pour into others then if that's the case. Yeah. But the backwards thinking

01:04:18.900 of America. Well, thank you, man. I mean the backwards thinking of Americans now I keep,

01:04:23.520 keep ragging on our country here, but the backwards thinking of our culture is, well, I got to love

01:04:28.200 myself first. I got to work on loving myself. I got to work more on loving myself. And that just

01:04:33.500 leads to more depression and more anxiety and more, uh, you know, pills and antidepressants and

01:04:40.460 therapy. It's more and more and more because we can't ever achieve the love for ourselves that we

01:04:45.900 think we're trying to get to. And we're not serving others at all at that same level. There's something

01:04:51.220 to that. So you're, what you're suggesting then is stop focusing so heavily on validating yourself

01:04:58.180 loving yourself, but turn it outwards and start serving, start helping, start contributing to

01:05:02.960 other people in their lives. It's exactly what I'm saying. I know at least anecdotally it's worked

01:05:08.400 for me. I mean, every time I start thinking, every time I start feeling bad for myself and I just sit

01:05:14.560 and feel bad for myself, I continue to feel bad for myself. And the only reprieve that I receive

01:05:20.160 is by not doing that and going and helping somebody else. Without wanting something in return from that

01:05:27.480 person. Sure. And then if we want to kind of like check this in our lives, we can all think about

01:05:35.060 someone in our lives that does, that serves others a lot. Like maybe it's your grandma,

01:05:39.560 maybe it's your mother, like mothers and grandmas kind of fit that pat, that role a lot.

01:05:44.260 But what, what, you know, I think about my grandmother, sir, she's lived now she's 96.

01:05:49.220 She's lived so long. She's outlived two husbands, uh, all of her siblings, parents,

01:05:54.240 all of her friends, she's outlived everyone and she's still going. And the only thing I could

01:05:58.860 attribute it to is she has served others way more than she served herself. And that's equaled longer

01:06:05.240 life for her. It's very interesting to test that and think about in your life, who has served others

01:06:11.120 more than themselves and what's their mentality. It's probably pretty good. They're probably pretty

01:06:16.000 positive people. Yeah. Regardless of their circumstances. They're not in therapy. Crazy,

01:06:22.420 right? Yeah. Good point. Good point. Well, brother, I appreciate you, man. I really do.

01:06:29.000 This is why, this is why we'll have more conversations. Some will be recorded and some

01:06:33.120 won't, you know, some of them are private, but, um, this is why I wanted to have this conversation.

01:06:37.960 And, you know, you were talking about bad reviews and you pulled up the negative star thing a minute

01:06:41.840 ago. Like, we're going to get some bad ones on this and we're going to get people, you know, look,

01:06:48.000 if it's for you, good. It's for everybody. I think it's for everybody, but if it's not,

01:06:51.280 that's okay. Like this is an opportunity to learn about things that maybe we're not familiar with or

01:06:56.240 not comfortable with, but just to expand our horizons a little bit more. Yeah. Let me,

01:07:01.520 and let me just say to those people that are hating on me right now, I totally get it. All this stuff.

01:07:05.780 I'm, I am self-testing. I don't have everything figured out. I don't, I'm learning every day.

01:07:11.840 And so, yeah, if you want to input something, you wouldn't tell me I'm wrong. I'm more than

01:07:16.080 willing to, to learn and to hear from you. Um, because we're just all in this journey and I'm,

01:07:21.160 I'm learning everything myself as well. Awesome. Tell the guys how to connect with you.

01:07:27.120 GrangerSmith.com. Uh, all the social media is at Granger Smith.

01:07:30.980 Are you with your sermons that you do? Is that, I mean, I've, I've watched a couple on YouTube,

01:07:35.640 but admittedly, I can't remember if it was like your personal YouTube channel or another channel.

01:07:41.320 You, you, where do the guys go for those? Yeah. I've been putting up the, the sermons on my

01:07:46.540 Granger Smith YouTube channel. Yep. Okay. Cool. I wasn't sure. Cause you sent me a couple of links

01:07:50.760 that I was following and I can't remember exactly. And then also, uh, you've got your,

01:07:55.280 your movie debut and that's not like the focus of this conversation or even it just happened to be

01:08:00.800 good timing. Cause I, I pulled it up cause I knew it was coming out. I'm like, when's this come out?

01:08:04.080 I think it comes out the fit. Is it the 15th? It's 15th. Yeah. So that's coming up quick.

01:08:09.440 But yeah, we haven't brought it up. It's funny. Cause today I've been in media all day with that

01:08:13.940 movie. And it's funny because that movie that we haven't talked about is about a man who lost his

01:08:19.440 wife and he's trying to find redemption. He's trying to find restoration and he can't do it on his own

01:08:25.340 until he finally surrenders. I had nothing to do with that script, but that's the irony of,

01:08:29.560 of what this movie is. Yeah. I, I watched the trailer a couple of times. So I'm looking forward to

01:08:34.540 seeing that not just because of the message, but because a friend is in it as well. And I want to

01:08:38.060 support where I can, but brother, I appreciate you, man. Our conversations have been invaluable.

01:08:43.960 I know the guys are going to get a lot from this and really, really appreciative of you joining us

01:08:47.920 today, man. I love your podcast. I love what you stand for. I love what you do. And that's always,

01:08:52.840 always an honor to be here. Thanks brother. All right, gentlemen, there it is. What a powerful

01:08:59.300 conversation. I hope you agree again. I know this one's going to be controversial and I know

01:09:03.540 it's going to do a lot of good. And I also know there's going to be a lot of people who,

01:09:07.240 who might hate or throw some, some criticism our way. And I'm okay with that. I really am. My goal

01:09:14.120 is to bring all the conversations that we can to you talk about masculinity and manliness from as

01:09:20.260 many angles as we possibly can and, and learn and grow and get better and improve our lives.

01:09:25.740 And also the lives of the people around us. So if you liked what we shared today and the

01:09:30.020 conversation we had, then make sure you sync up with Granger on Instagram. He's very active over

01:09:36.060 there. He's got a new movie coming out. He had a new album come out several months ago and also

01:09:41.860 check out Yee Yee apparel. They've probably got their winter collections already available. And

01:09:47.760 I'm sure there's some deals and stuff like that for Christmas. So if you do make sure that you,

01:09:53.500 you take a screenshot like you guys always do. You're, you're really good at doing this. And I

01:09:58.040 appreciate it is just take a screenshot right now before you move on to your next podcast or go

01:10:02.900 about your day and post it up on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, wherever you're doing your

01:10:07.180 social media thing, tag Ranger, tag myself, let other men know what you're listening to.

01:10:11.760 Because I feel like if we have a resource that serves us well, then we have a responsibility to

01:10:17.420 share that with other people who will be positively impacted by the work we're doing. So just want to

01:10:22.740 tell you that I appreciate you guys listening in. I appreciate the example that you are to me.

01:10:27.820 I appreciate the shares and the support. If you're interested in banding with us,

01:10:32.100 make sure you check out the iron council at order of man.com slash iron council. And then of course,

01:10:37.260 give Granger a shout out and let him know that you heard him here on the order of man podcast.

01:10:41.720 All right, guys, that's all I've got. We'll be back tomorrow until then go out there,

01:10:46.020 take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:10:48.880 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:10:53.420 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - December 06, 2022

GRANGER SMITH ｜ Finding Faith and Hope in God

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