Order of Man - Growing Excellence in Yourself and Others ｜ RYAN HAWK & BROOK CUPPS

00:00:00.460 Men are called a lead, but too many men lack the skillset to do it effectively.

00:00:05.140 That's the bad news.

00:00:06.360 The good news is that much of the skillset required to lead can be learned, developed

00:00:10.900 and harnessed to serve the people you care about.

00:00:13.800 It's just a matter of whether or not men decide to invest in the tools available to better

00:00:18.460 their lives and the lives of the people around them.

00:00:21.040 My guests today, Ryan Hawk and Brooke Cupps know a lot about the tools required as they

00:00:26.480 are both extremely successful in leading others in their own right.

00:00:30.760 Today, we talk about the three most powerful ways to build trust, laughing, crying, and

00:00:35.620 suffering, the difference and importance between being trustworthy and trust giving, why it's

00:00:41.620 crucial to deflect praise and embrace criticism, how curiosity serves your most important relationships

00:00:48.320 and the difference between intuitive and analytical leading.

00:00:52.560 You're a man of action.

00:00:53.480 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:58.280 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:02.700 You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:07.740 This is your life.

00:01:08.880 This is who you are.

00:01:10.320 This is who you will become.

00:01:12.020 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:17.160 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:19.100 My name is Ryan Michler, and it is our job to give you as a man the tools you need to thrive

00:01:25.000 and grow and develop and build yourself and those around you, both professionally, personally,

00:01:30.920 and every facet of your life.

00:01:32.540 So I'm glad you're tuning in.

00:01:34.200 I've got a very, very good conversation with Ryan Hawk and Brooke Cupps.

00:01:38.460 Ryan's been on several times now.

00:01:40.080 And every time Ryan comes on the podcast, I get so much positive feedback about his ability to

00:01:45.040 learn, acquire new information, apply that information, and then better his life.

00:01:50.840 And of course, anybody who tunes in and applies, including myself, I've been a big recipient

00:01:56.420 of the information that he shared, and it's been beneficial in my life.

00:02:00.120 Before we get into that, though, just want to mention my friends and show sponsors over

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00:02:57.040 All right, guys, with that said, let me introduce you to my two guests.

00:03:02.260 This is both of these guys are joining me today.

00:03:05.060 Ryan Hawk is the creator and the host of The Learning Leader Show.

00:03:08.660 It's a top rated iTunes business podcast.

00:03:12.140 He speaks to Fortune 500 companies.

00:03:14.400 He works with teams and players in the NFL, NBA, MLB, NCAA.

00:03:18.020 He facilitates what he calls leadership circles that really offers structured guidance and

00:03:23.820 feedback to new and experienced leaders.

00:03:27.540 He is the author of Welcome to Management, The Pursuit of Excellence.

00:03:32.540 Those have been named by Forbes as, quote, the best leadership book of 2020.

00:03:37.040 And then The Pursuit of Excellence, quote, the most dynamic leadership book of 2022.

00:03:42.540 So this guy clearly has some things to talk about on the importance and how to lead effectively.

00:03:47.100 Now, Brooke Cupps, he is the co-author of their newest book, The Score That Matters.

00:03:51.640 He has been a high school basketball coach for more than 20 years.

00:03:54.760 He's earned Coach of the Year awards.

00:03:56.840 He's won numerous conference, district, and regional championships.

00:04:00.640 He's also taken his high school, Centerville High School's first ever basketball state championship

00:04:05.940 in 2021.

00:04:08.420 Now, he's also spent the last eight years coaching grassroots basketball.

00:04:11.980 He's helped guide the North Coast Blue Chips to national championships in 2014 and 2019.

00:04:17.780 So again, we have another individual who is clearly qualified to lead other people.

00:04:23.260 And then he also publishes weekly essays on leadership and coaching.

00:04:27.880 So I'm very excited to have both Ryan Hawk and Brooke Cupps, again, the co-authors of their

00:04:33.000 newest book, The Score That Matters, Growing Excellence in Yourself and Those You Lead.

00:04:40.340 Ryan, Brooke, thanks for joining me today on the podcast.

00:04:42.740 Ryan, I know it's been a while.

00:04:43.700 Brooke, it's good to meet you.

00:04:44.700 I'm excited to have this conversation today.

00:04:46.660 Thanks, man.

00:04:47.340 Appreciate you having us.

00:04:48.960 Yeah.

00:04:49.140 Thanks for having us.

00:04:50.160 Yeah, of course.

00:04:51.320 You know, as I was going through the book, I think even the title is pretty fascinating

00:04:55.680 to me because I think there's this idea, this idea in culture and society today that the

00:05:01.000 score that really counts is, you know, your bank account or your followers, right?

00:05:06.740 Or all these things that are pretty easy to quantify, but I don't really think speak to

00:05:11.220 the depth of a man's character and what he's trying to accomplish in life.

00:05:15.380 So I think if we can set the framework for the discussion on what is the score that matters,

00:05:21.320 we can dive deeper into it and help guys get to that point where they're actually looking

00:05:25.840 at valuable metrics rather than the ones that culture tells you you should look at.

00:05:30.580 A hundred percent agree, man.

00:05:32.160 I feel like in this project, particularly Ryan, that I got to play the role of more like

00:05:37.180 a student and Brooke as like the teacher.

00:05:39.940 And that uniquely gives two different perspectives.

00:05:44.360 I hope at least for the reader to see what it feels like as the person kind of trying to improve

00:05:52.700 each day and to be taught the lesson as well as you get the perspective from the teacher.

00:05:57.740 So I feel like that's a unique thing we can bring to this when it comes to like what the

00:06:01.660 score that matters is.

00:06:02.500 And I've learned that mostly from my work with Brooke on my core values and my purpose

00:06:07.360 and the critical behaviors that match the core values.

00:06:10.700 But for me, that's been like the cool part of really trying to understand like the score

00:06:15.880 that matters most.

00:06:16.780 And I think Brooke can kind of go deeper on that.

00:06:19.080 Yeah, I think this, you know, we landed on the title.

00:06:21.880 I don't even remember how we got there.

00:06:23.500 I think maybe Liam or one of our friends kind of helped us put it into words, but it turned

00:06:29.260 out perfect.

00:06:30.080 It articulates exactly what we want.

00:06:32.660 I think of the score that matters as being, I mean, to state it as simply as you can, the

00:06:39.020 process over the outcome.

00:06:41.400 But I think of taking a lift to the top of a mountain versus climbing the mountain are

00:06:46.600 two completely different things and you have the same result at the end.

00:06:49.800 And so that process, embracing that process and understanding that you have the choice

00:06:55.260 of defining that for yourself and you do not have to rely on, you know, society's definition

00:07:00.620 of that for you.

00:07:02.280 So hopefully empowering the reader to understand and kind of look at it from a different lens.

00:07:06.720 Yeah, I agree with the concept of the process over the outcome.

00:07:12.720 I think, you know, you often hear things like the ends justify the means.

00:07:17.000 I don't think they do.

00:07:18.120 I think the means are more important than the ends.

00:07:20.640 And not ironically, if you take care of the means, the ends will naturally take care of

00:07:26.920 themselves.

00:07:27.540 Maybe not in the micro.

00:07:28.780 You know, it's easy to, you know, steal from somebody and you could say that's building

00:07:33.240 wealth, but you know, you're stealing from somebody.

00:07:34.840 You're doing something that's not righteous, but in the macro over the long term, I think

00:07:38.960 doing the right thing will inevitably yield the right result, something that we're all

00:07:43.520 after.

00:07:45.060 It seems that the ones who win the most, whether it's Bill Walsh and his book, The Score That

00:07:52.860 Takes Care of Itself, talking about champions behave like champions long before they win a

00:07:56.980 championship, or even someone like in Brook's case, where he brings a new way of approaching

00:08:04.020 each day, a more process centered, goal setting style to the Centerville basketball program.

00:08:11.720 And it was a team and a school that was known for other sports that had done much better in

00:08:17.760 other sports that had done okay at the sport of basketball.

00:08:22.380 And they shift to kind of the way he lives his life, this value centered, process oriented

00:08:29.420 approach.

00:08:30.480 And what happens, you know, final fours, state championships, like all the things that people

00:08:36.340 want and say they strive for, even though those weren't really necessarily goals that those

00:08:41.040 guys set.

00:08:41.720 It was really about how we show up each day and attacking opportunities with purpose.

00:08:46.140 That's what's cool to me.

00:08:47.360 That's what's exciting to me is you can marry the process and almost divorce yourself with

00:08:51.080 the results, and yet the results seem to be the things that you want to get.

00:08:58.360 Yeah, it's interesting that all of these skills, and we'll break it down here in the next little

00:09:02.760 bit, but all of these skills are translatable, you know, whether it's across different sports

00:09:06.800 that you might be playing, or, you know, the way you show up at the gym is going to be the

00:09:10.540 way you show up in a relationship is going to be the way you show up in business.

00:09:13.600 Um, my question is this, and this is something I've wrestled with, because clearly the outcome

00:09:20.580 is important, right?

00:09:21.680 We all have goals, we all have desires, ambitions, and I think we should, I don't, I don't think

00:09:26.800 you guys would disagree with that.

00:09:29.000 But where does that fit in the puzzle or the process of this, this process oriented approach

00:09:38.660 that you're talking about?

00:09:40.000 Because clearly having a goal is important, and I don't think it's one or the other.

00:09:43.920 I think it's probably where we place our emphasis or how much emphasis we place on one over the

00:09:47.980 other.

00:09:48.400 I mean, I think of it, I think of it more as an experimenter's mindset, right?

00:09:53.040 Like we are trying to, we're going to establish a process that we think gives us the best chance

00:09:59.400 of achieving whatever outcome we would like to have.

00:10:02.380 And then we're going to choose lead metrics that guide that process to measure and to talk

00:10:09.040 about all the time.

00:10:10.260 And that's going to be our focus.

00:10:11.920 And if we don't get the outcome that we want, then the change is in the process that we,

00:10:17.020 that we established.

00:10:17.860 So, okay, I didn't, I didn't get it, what I wanted out of that process.

00:10:21.640 So now I need to look up out of that.

00:10:24.120 I didn't get the result that I desired initially.

00:10:26.220 So I got to look at my process and see what my process has to change.

00:10:29.260 Just like if I'm in a, if I'm in a science lab and I'm doing an experiment and I don't

00:10:34.660 get what I want, well, then I need to take a little bit of this out and put a little bit

00:10:37.500 more of that in.

00:10:38.220 I think it's the same thing with our process as we reflect on it.

00:10:41.840 The, the whole thing is like that being your focus, just like you said, Ryan, that being

00:10:47.060 what, what all of our adjustment, what all of our focus is on, and then allowing that

00:10:51.820 process to lead to whatever outcome it results in.

00:10:55.440 One of the things though, that I, that I've done in my own life and I, and I see other

00:10:59.520 guys making the mistake of is sometimes doing the right thing takes time to yield the result.

00:11:06.460 And what I've done in my life and what I've seen other people do specifically, I even see,

00:11:11.340 you know, my oldest son, he's going to be turning 16 next month.

00:11:14.920 He's playing lacrosse.

00:11:16.260 Well, in, in our town, this is the very first year that they've ever played.

00:11:20.940 He plays football.

00:11:22.360 He he's very active.

00:11:23.640 He does a lot of power lifting and strength training.

00:11:26.160 Uh, now he's playing lacrosse doing the right thing.

00:11:30.280 Isn't going to yield the result this year.

00:11:32.040 Like they're not going to go undefeated this year.

00:11:33.880 They may not even win a game this year.

00:11:35.480 I don't know, but that isn't always an indicator that they're doing the wrong thing.

00:11:39.920 So how do you know that you're on the right path, even though you may not be experiencing

00:11:44.780 the result that you desire right now?

00:11:46.680 Go to BC.

00:11:48.360 Yeah, I think that's a, that's something that's harder and harder, uh, to relay to people and

00:11:53.740 especially younger people now because of the immediate results they get and being able to

00:11:58.920 door dash your food and all the different things that the, you know, the things that make life

00:12:04.420 comfortable for us are all shortchanging the process for the most part.

00:12:09.080 And I just, I think it's something we have to continue talking about, continue preaching and

00:12:13.860 continue staying faithful to, you know, we are one of our phrases in our program.

00:12:18.920 Ryan, you still there?

00:12:20.680 Am I cutting out on you?

00:12:22.080 A little bit.

00:12:23.060 I got the keep chopping component.

00:12:25.380 I guess my question is maybe to just push on that a little bit more is how do you know

00:12:29.320 you're chopping in the right way?

00:12:30.940 Sure.

00:12:31.220 Keep chopping.

00:12:31.920 But if you're doing it wrong, like, I mean, you're, it's, it's futile.

00:12:36.440 It's, it's wasted energy.

00:12:37.420 Yeah.

00:12:38.800 Yeah.

00:12:39.320 So that you, you look at the, you check the result, like you, you check it's, that's

00:12:43.400 where the experimenter mindset comes in is I, I mean, I take, I take 20 swings on the

00:12:48.980 tree and I check, am I, am I making any progress?

00:12:51.420 Okay.

00:12:51.840 Maybe not.

00:12:52.380 Maybe I need to just keep swinging.

00:12:53.940 Maybe I need to flip the ax around.

00:12:55.640 Maybe I need to go sharpen my ax.

00:12:56.960 But I think by continuously checking and like we, we talk about lead and lag metrics.

00:13:02.620 And so, you know, checking those lead metrics and making sure that I'm doing the, I'm honoring

00:13:07.760 that process.

00:13:09.340 Then I think more often than not, the process that we choose yields the result eventually.

00:13:17.280 It's the willingness to stay with it and to continue doing it that most people quit on.

00:13:23.300 Sometimes we have the process wrong.

00:13:24.620 Like sometimes we have the ax backwards.

00:13:26.860 Yep.

00:13:27.260 Sometimes we do.

00:13:28.780 But I think just continuously going back and checking and then continuing to swing is, is

00:13:35.980 the way to do it.

00:13:37.380 Ryan, in a business, what a business sense.

00:13:40.940 I actually, when I got promoted to, to become a first time manager, one of the things that

00:13:46.760 bothered me is that they had certain metrics they wanted us to measure that I wasn't a hundred

00:13:51.560 percent sold that those were the right metrics to be, to be marrying ourself to or the process

00:13:56.680 to marry ourself to, because I didn't necessarily know based on my experience as a sales rep,

00:14:01.120 I didn't necessarily think.

00:14:02.140 And one of those were, were like whoever makes the most dials wins basically like it was a

00:14:06.700 cold calling job.

00:14:07.800 Right.

00:14:08.200 So make, whoever makes the most dials wins.

00:14:10.440 And so you were rewarded for two things, dials and phone time.

00:14:14.480 And they always would like really shine bright lights and send emails and like give awards

00:14:18.800 for people who made the most dials, made those phone calls and who spent the most time on

00:14:23.060 the phone.

00:14:23.460 Cause they thought that would give you the best chance to win.

00:14:25.520 And, and I actually tried to re re, uh, engineer the top 10 people in the stack rankings.

00:14:32.140 And it took like a long time and I got help from our sales operations people.

00:14:35.340 And what I found out was actually was people who did more product demonstrations, not necessarily

00:14:41.800 made the most dials cause they were having more productive conversations that eventually

00:14:45.920 led to sales versus the person who just started pounding the phones, but weren't, wasn't very

00:14:51.420 effective while on the phone or didn't get to product demo demonstrations or demos for short.

00:14:56.120 So we started tracking the, the, the more of the process of people who were actually getting

00:15:02.640 to demos, having demos, being good at demoing the product.

00:15:06.020 They led to the result that we wanted much more than the person who just smiled and dialed

00:15:10.180 all day.

00:15:10.700 And so that's like an, in, in the case of what we're saying is the, these were the wrong

00:15:15.660 metrics being used.

00:15:16.860 It seemed like that meant you were the hardest worker cause you dialed the phone the most,

00:15:20.640 but in it, but what was happening is people started gaming systems because they wanted

00:15:24.780 their name on the, on the leaderboards of dials.

00:15:28.000 They started just calling their mom, like literally things like this were happening as opposed to

00:15:32.360 doing real things that led to the result that we wanted.

00:15:35.100 And so I, I really try to change things around there to get people to focus on what were the

00:15:40.660 actual metrics that led to the ultimate result, getting sales that we wanted.

00:15:45.480 And, uh, you know, I think that had an impact on the business as a whole, not just on my

00:15:49.340 team, but on, but on teams around the business.

00:15:51.520 And, um, uh, so like Brooke said, it is useful to look up every once in a while and say, are

00:15:57.220 we actually value valuing the right behaviors to lead to the results that we want?

00:16:03.360 I think the, uh, what you're talking about with the dials is just a great indicator of

00:16:08.780 where we're at in culture.

00:16:09.800 You know, if I go ask 10, 10 of my friends today, how things are going, all of them are

00:16:14.140 going to say, Oh, really good.

00:16:15.080 I'm busy as if busy is the metric.

00:16:17.620 I don't, I don't want to be busy.

00:16:19.620 I want to be productive.

00:16:20.860 I would love to lay by the pool this afternoon. 0.93

00:16:22.480 Cause I got all my shit done by new. 0.95

00:16:24.940 I agree. 0.95

00:16:25.680 So who's more productive.

00:16:27.060 You know, if we're, if we're looking at it from a sports analogy, you know, I think

00:16:31.280 about, um, and this is going to date me because I don't really watch a lot of sports at this,

00:16:35.600 at this stage of my life.

00:16:36.500 But when I was younger, I did.

00:16:37.540 And you take somebody like, you know, Tony Gwynn in baseball, the guy gets on base every

00:16:43.720 time he's at bat versus somebody like maybe Mark McGuire, you know, the likelihood of him

00:16:48.060 hitting a home run is probably pretty significant, but he doesn't get on base like Tony Gwynn

00:16:51.940 does.

00:16:52.600 So who do you want on your team?

00:16:54.440 You know, in the micro, the home runs look good.

00:16:57.000 I'll take Tony Gwynn over Mark McGuire all day long.

00:16:59.780 If I'm building a place, we're allowed to take steroids.

00:17:01.880 I don't know.

00:17:02.300 I might take Mark.

00:17:02.940 Well, yeah.

00:17:03.580 I mean, that's a separate conversation, right?

00:17:05.220 Well, that might be the gaming that you were talking about earlier too.

00:17:07.960 Yeah, exactly.

00:17:11.280 Um, I guess my question then the follow-up to that is how does a, how does a man, um,

00:17:17.160 let's break it down into real practical terms for, uh, let's, let's take it in a relationship

00:17:22.800 because I think we can look at in business here in a minute, but let's look at a relationship.

00:17:27.120 What type of metrics should a guy be looking at and how does he know that he's choosing

00:17:32.060 the right metrics?

00:17:33.540 What do you think on that one?

00:17:35.220 So I think it's the same thing.

00:17:37.200 I think you got to figure out what you want in your relationship.

00:17:40.160 So for me, uh, for example, one of the things my, my son and daughter just moved out.

00:17:46.720 My son's in college.

00:17:47.980 My daughter has a job now. 1.00

00:17:50.120 Um, she lives about an hour away from us prior to them leaving.

00:17:54.240 Like I want, I want touches with my kids.

00:17:57.260 That's what my, one of my core values is thankful.

00:17:59.260 And the behavior is show love.

00:18:01.300 So I want touches in, in, it used to be in, in previous season of my life.

00:18:07.000 It was face-to-face contact.

00:18:09.040 I mean, I was in practice every day with my son.

00:18:11.040 I was in with him in the gym every single morning.

00:18:13.300 I was with my daughter every day after school.

00:18:15.780 Cutting out a little bit again.

00:18:16.680 So I, he jumps back in.

00:18:17.900 Um, okay, sorry.

00:18:20.160 Um, so I had those, I had those significant touches every day that, that led to, uh, like

00:18:25.840 me being able to express my gratitude and appreciation for our relationship.

00:18:29.280 So now I've got to find other ways to do that.

00:18:31.480 I've just, I've got, so now I, I text them every morning.

00:18:34.900 I, I talk to them every night.

00:18:37.160 I write them a letter every week.

00:18:40.020 Um, I just have to find other ways, uh, to, to maintain that relationship and continue

00:18:47.420 be creative in how I establish those touches, uh, to live my value of thankful with them.

00:18:53.440 How, how, Brooke, how intuitive are you versus analytical?

00:18:57.080 I think there's a difference, right?

00:18:58.720 Like intuitively, I think you're talking about more about intuition.

00:19:02.120 Does it feel right?

00:19:03.220 Am I still, do I feel like I'm connected with my kids versus the analytical side, which

00:19:08.180 is, you know, did I send, you know, 14 texts this week to my son?

00:19:12.520 Did I, it's how much, how many hours did I spend?

00:19:15.560 So where, where do we need to be analytical and where should we just look at this as more

00:19:18.980 of an intuitive process?

00:19:21.940 I think the majority of that is intuitive.

00:19:24.740 Um, I think I use the analytical, oh, sorry, Ryan, go ahead and take it.

00:19:29.760 I'm going to see if I can move.

00:19:31.760 You got it.

00:19:32.560 Yeah, go ahead, Ryan.

00:19:33.800 Uh, yeah.

00:19:34.380 One of the goals I set for myself this year, which I, I think is like a lead measure is

00:19:37.860 180 walks with my wife, Miranda, right?

00:19:40.560 Cause I know when we go on walks, it seems standing, walking side by side with a person

00:19:45.280 you love is for me at least has been, whether it's a child or, or a friend, or in this case,

00:19:50.860 my spouse is, um, a great way for us to deepen our connection.

00:19:55.400 And that is a, that's a big goal of mine.

00:19:57.360 And so deepening, deepening a connection is kind of vague.

00:20:01.200 We understand what that means, but what is a practical way to put that into action?

00:20:05.020 And so 180 walks means approximately every other day we're going to walk together, usually

00:20:09.660 our dogs with us.

00:20:10.640 And I think that, that to me is a way to bring that one to life.

00:20:14.720 And she, and I, I've publicly stated that now she's aware of that.

00:20:19.460 Um, in fact, her boss, where she works has asked her, how many walks have you gone on with

00:20:23.960 your husband so far this year?

00:20:25.100 We're now through a couple of months, which is interesting that he saw that I publicly

00:20:28.780 stated that.

00:20:29.600 And so now she's even more intentional about making that goal come true for me because

00:20:35.900 she wants me to hit my goals.

00:20:37.160 And what happens as a result is we deepen our connection.

00:20:40.940 We converse, we have time, like five children, our life is chaotic.

00:20:45.240 It becomes very logistical if we're not careful.

00:20:48.340 And so you need time, you need connection, you have to do something, do things on purpose

00:20:53.580 to make sure that we deepen that.

00:20:55.320 So that's what, like a one smaller example, but very important one for me of how to, uh,

00:21:02.400 state a goal, then go out and execute on that.

00:21:05.560 And then the result is something that's like the most important element of my life.

00:21:09.860 And then let's take that example.

00:21:11.780 So 180 walks with your wife, um, you know, that's the analytical side, right?

00:21:16.000 You can, that's very easy to quantify.

00:21:18.080 Did I hit 180 or not?

00:21:20.060 It's easy.

00:21:20.720 Yep.

00:21:21.420 But then what are you looking at as far as, look, I could go on a walk with somebody and,

00:21:26.700 and, and argue and, you know, berate each other.

00:21:29.940 And I'm using extreme examples, but I mean, I accomplished my goal, right?

00:21:35.020 Like it's a walk.

00:21:36.580 Sure.

00:21:37.100 But was it actually productive towards my end result?

00:21:40.000 No.

00:21:40.360 So what, what are you doing to ensure that those walks are as productive towards the

00:21:45.980 outcome of building a better relationship with Miranda, right?

00:21:49.520 Yeah.

00:21:50.000 Yeah.

00:21:50.340 I mean, in this case, I think one of the greatest ways that, that we show each other love, both

00:21:55.100 of us is to be very curious about each other.

00:21:57.280 I think curiosity is a ultimate sign of respect and love.

00:22:00.420 So we ask about how each other's feeling about things.

00:22:02.980 We ask each other advice on business things, on life things, certainly on parenting things.

00:22:07.500 Um, and, and so showing curiosity is something I'm very intentional about when we get on those

00:22:11.760 walks.

00:22:12.160 Uh, don't make it all about me.

00:22:13.800 Don't just dump on her with all of the stuff that I'm dealing with or, or whatever, but,

00:22:18.720 but try to actually show, show that I care by asking questions.

00:22:22.280 And, um, I've, I've had a number of people on my show, my podcast who, who said that they,

00:22:27.360 they feel like curiosity and asking others about them is the ultimate, ultimate way to show

00:22:32.780 love and respect.

00:22:33.540 And, and, and to a certain extent, I, I think that's true.

00:22:36.700 And so that, that's something that I just try to be very intentional of if we are setting

00:22:40.480 this goal and then we're out actually doing it, um, how are you showing up during those

00:22:45.620 important times to show love?

00:22:47.940 And that's one of the ways that we both try to do it for each other.

00:22:51.100 Yeah.

00:22:51.700 I like that.

00:22:52.540 Curiosity is one of my favorite things too, especially as it, as it relates to this podcast,

00:22:56.900 you said it shows respect.

00:22:58.500 And I think it does, you know, it's also a genuine compliment.

00:23:02.880 You know, it's like, I actually care about what you have to say and I'm interested in

00:23:07.160 your perspective or your opinion or your expertise.

00:23:10.460 Curiosity is so powerful and it's often overlooked.

00:23:12.540 You've probably experienced it too, man.

00:23:14.140 Like this is one of the, we, we, we started around the same time.

00:23:17.460 Remember, that's why it's been so neat to see, see all your growth and everything you've

00:23:20.700 done, but like it actually helps form relationships with other people just because you're curious

00:23:26.620 to ask questions about them and their genuine questions about what they're doing, how they're

00:23:31.580 doing it, why they're doing it, their story and trying to learn about people.

00:23:35.180 I feel like I never would have, could have ever guessed now after 570 of these episodes

00:23:41.200 in nine years of just all of the relationships that are formed simply from showing care and

00:23:47.260 love and curiosity for other people.

00:23:48.860 It's the coolest part about it.

00:23:50.020 Like it's, it's no doubt.

00:23:51.160 Like I think one of the, one of, if not the best part about having a podcast.

00:23:54.400 Well, and I think one of the nice things about it too, is you could ask somebody a simple

00:23:58.360 question like, what do you think?

00:24:00.260 That doesn't mean that you need to accept whatever it is they say.

00:24:04.440 You don't need to embrace that as doctrine for yourself, but I am curious.

00:24:08.620 There might be things that you guys say today.

00:24:10.320 I'm like, nah, I don't agree with that, but I'm curious as to what it is, you know, and

00:24:14.080 let's hash it out.

00:24:15.240 You guys have some success in some areas that I would be interested in developing success

00:24:18.840 in, and I might have some that you're interested in.

00:24:20.980 This is the power of just dialogue and conversation and human connection.

00:24:25.960 A hundred percent, man.

00:24:27.380 Brooke, did you have anything to add on that?

00:24:28.960 Again, we were talking about the difference between the analytical side of things versus

00:24:33.400 the intuitive side of things.

00:24:35.160 No, I mean, I heard most of it and I, I'm with Ryan.

00:24:38.660 I think we have, I have some analytical things that I do just because I have a system and that's

00:24:45.020 kind of, I write a letter every week.

00:24:47.020 I text him every morning and then I think you have to use your intuitive side to see

00:24:51.460 if I need to do more or less of that based on how that relationship is going.

00:24:55.020 Do I need to, do I need to go up and see him do it?

00:24:57.260 Like we've driven over to Bloomington to, to see Gabe when we felt like it, you know,

00:25:01.500 things were tough for him.

00:25:02.640 And, um, I think, I think it's just a constant reflection on, uh, you know, seeing where that

00:25:08.460 intuitive result is based on that.

00:25:10.200 You write a, uh, you said you write a letter, you write a physical letter to your, I think you

00:25:14.800 have two, so you write a physical letter to each of your two children on a weekly basis.

00:25:19.360 I do.

00:25:19.960 I write to my son, daughter, and my wife every Sunday.

00:25:23.760 Yeah.

00:25:24.240 Oh, that's cool.

00:25:25.220 That's really cool.

00:25:26.320 What do you, if you don't mind sharing, you don't have to get personal, but like what types

00:25:29.440 of information do you include in a letter like that?

00:25:32.100 Yeah, it depends.

00:25:32.960 Um, it changes.

00:25:34.360 Sometimes I tell them what's going on.

00:25:35.920 A lot of times I ask questions and I, um, you know, we talk, I'll talk about, you know,

00:25:41.340 things that we've done together, or if we had some shared experience over the past week,

00:25:45.380 I'll talk about that.

00:25:46.760 Um, maybe things that we didn't get, uh, get to talk about when we were together.

00:25:50.860 Um, a lot of times the letters with my wife are talking about our kids and we're traveling

00:25:55.200 a lot together right now.

00:25:56.580 So, you know, sharing and just, you know, talking about some of those experiences that

00:26:01.380 we have together.

00:26:02.040 So nothing, nothing big, really just more that they know I'm thinking about them.

00:26:07.200 Man, I'm just going to pause the conversation very, very briefly.

00:26:13.260 Guys, we're not meant to do life alone, but unfortunately too many men do.

00:26:17.780 And it's no wonder that we have a male loneliness problem in this country.

00:26:22.180 And even just hearing those words, male loneliness might make you cringe a bit.

00:26:26.340 It's hard to admit that being alone is even a problem for us as men, but it is, uh, it leads

00:26:32.380 to isolation, limited thinking, lack of creative problem solving, diminishing

00:26:37.040 personal and professional productivity.

00:26:38.920 And ultimately it even leads to anxiety and depression.

00:26:42.120 And unfortunately, maybe even suicidal thoughts and actions.

00:26:45.300 But the question is, where do you turn to find men who are willing and capable to stand

00:26:50.740 in your corner with you?

00:26:52.120 Well, the answer is our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council.

00:26:54.580 And the good news is that we are officially open for the next week or so, uh, right now

00:27:00.380 for enrollment.

00:27:01.120 And when you band with us, you're going to tap into the power of 1000 plus men in your

00:27:05.260 corner, holding your feet to the fire and standing with you through this thing we call

00:27:10.220 life guys.

00:27:11.480 If you want to learn more, I'm not going to do it all here in this, uh, little, little,

00:27:16.080 uh, pause on the conversation.

00:27:17.360 But if you do want to learn more, go watch a video over at order of man.com slash iron

00:27:22.600 council.

00:27:23.040 There's a frequently asked questions segment on there.

00:27:26.040 And you can learn more about, uh, what, what we're doing, how we're doing it, why we're

00:27:29.920 doing it and how it might serve you in leveling up your life.

00:27:34.000 Again, that's order of man.com slash iron council.

00:27:36.480 We're only open for a very limited time.

00:27:38.320 So make sure you do that very quickly again, order of man.com slash iron council.

00:27:42.680 You can do that right after the show for now.

00:27:45.140 Let's get back to it with Ryan and Brooke.

00:27:47.220 Yeah, I like that guys.

00:27:51.540 I want to jump over to the book.

00:27:52.780 You guys lead, lead, well, very early on in the book, you talk about the concept of lying

00:27:58.100 too much.

00:27:58.820 And, and, you know, when I first saw that immediately it's, you know, we deceive ourselves, but,

00:28:03.860 and, and that's, that's something all of us do.

00:28:07.360 We, we think that we're better than we are.

00:28:09.560 You know, you hear these things like, for example, one context might be like, Oh, if somebody 1.00

00:28:13.860 ever did that to me, I'd kick his ass. 1.00

00:28:15.320 It's like, well, are you capable of kicking that guy's ass? 1.00

00:28:17.680 Cause you might not be, uh, but it's funny, you know, I hear in my boys too, if we're 1.00

00:28:22.220 talking about sports is, you know, Oh, those guys suck. 0.99

00:28:26.240 Like we're going to destroy them. 1.00

00:28:27.740 And then they go get destroyed.

00:28:28.840 And I'm like, eh, maybe you, maybe you thought too highly of yourself and you should have been

00:28:32.860 a little bit more humble and trained a little harder, practice a little harder.

00:28:36.400 Maybe watch some more tape, really understood what they were trying to do.

00:28:40.080 Uh, but I think our ego gets in the way, but maybe that's something different than what

00:28:44.080 you guys intended.

00:28:44.780 I'm curious what you guys say about it.

00:28:47.280 Uh, I think that you, you hit part of it, uh, exactly right.

00:28:51.320 We lie to ourselves.

00:28:53.020 Um, and we're also not great at being self-aware.

00:28:57.460 Uh, this is something most people think they're, they're very good at.

00:29:00.700 Most of us think we have high levels of self-awareness.

00:29:03.900 We state, state, state some of Tasha Yerick's research, um, in there as well about the fact

00:29:08.840 that almost everybody believes they have a very high level of self-awareness and almost

00:29:12.340 nobody does.

00:29:13.640 And so part of, of like understanding the score that matters and living through your internal

00:29:19.560 scoreboard is developing a higher level of self-awareness.

00:29:22.120 And one of the ways to do that, cause they're like the natural question is, well, how do

00:29:25.640 you do that?

00:29:26.080 If we're not, if all of us think we're good at it, but none of us are is, uh, I think

00:29:30.540 that at least it's been practical and helpful for me is, is being very intentional about the

00:29:34.780 people you surround yourself with.

00:29:37.080 Um, and well, Brooke might call them, uh, his 3am friends or our foxhole, like those

00:29:43.100 people that are right there that you can go to that will tell you the truth that love

00:29:47.040 you and care about you and have both the ability and the willingness to tell you the truth.

00:29:52.180 And in a way you block out those who are not a part of that for the most part and only

00:29:57.260 stay tight with these people who want to help you so that you can say like, Hey, you

00:30:02.440 know, I just did this speech or this podcast, or I, I, I feel this way about a certain thing.

00:30:07.240 What do you think?

00:30:08.820 And, um, it, the, the stats are getting worse on this.

00:30:12.320 In fact, not better.

00:30:13.280 Uh, people are lonelier.

00:30:14.840 People are not as good at developing deep friendships.

00:30:17.800 Uh, Derek Thompson just posted a big article about this.

00:30:20.640 And I think it's, it's even more of a reason for us to be more intentional about who are you

00:30:26.260 surrounding yourself with?

00:30:27.680 Can you be actually really honest with one another?

00:30:30.480 Or do you care and love for one another to tell them the truth, even though it hurts.

00:30:34.520 And I think it's the ultimate act of being a selfless person to be willing to sell, to

00:30:40.980 tell somebody when they've messed up and maybe even some ideas on how to fix it versus being

00:30:45.500 selfish, which is not telling them because you don't want to potentially hurt them in the

00:30:51.920 short term to better them in the longterm.

00:30:53.920 So I, that's how I try to approach it.

00:30:55.620 That's why I try to surround myself with people who will do that for me.

00:30:58.980 And that's been, I think, transformative when you can get that right.

00:31:02.520 But it's, it's always a work in progress and something that, um, that, that I know both

00:31:06.780 of us are really big on.

00:31:08.240 Yeah.

00:31:08.720 I think Adam Grant calls them disagreeable givers.

00:31:11.500 And I think the message in the book is to be intentional about putting those people in

00:31:16.880 your life and, or a system.

00:31:18.920 Um, you know, we have people come in and evaluate basketball practice just so I get a different

00:31:23.900 perspective and I can see things as clearly as I can.

00:31:27.720 I think if you aren't intentional about that, you just, you just start accepting things without

00:31:32.860 even thinking about it's a natural tendency.

00:31:36.060 Um, we talk, we talk in our leadership class about, you know, the only difference between

00:31:40.140 a friend or an acquaintance and like a foxhole friend is like, if you have your fly down,

00:31:45.160 when you're talking in front of the class, you're like, they're not going to tell you and

00:31:49.280 just laugh at you, your foxhole friend, they'll laugh at you and tell you like, they'll actually

00:31:54.080 tell you your flies down, right?

00:31:55.540 They're actually going to try to help you and do that for you.

00:31:58.680 You need those people in your life.

00:32:00.820 Well, it's interesting when you have these kinds of people who, who, who won't tell you

00:32:04.320 your flies down and there's toilet paper on your shoe or you got something in your beard

00:32:07.580 or whatever and what they'll say or, or worse, right? 1.00

00:32:10.860 Like, Hey, you're being an asshole and you need to tighten things up or you're not being, 1.00

00:32:14.280 you're looking a little fat and maybe you ought to lose some weight. 1.00

00:32:16.480 Like those things too, right?

00:32:17.920 Uh, what's interesting is the people who don't approach their friends will say, will say,

00:32:22.500 this is their excuse is why I don't want that person to feel bad.

00:32:26.620 I actually don't think that's it at all.

00:32:28.560 I think it's, you don't want to have to deal with the discomfort of addressing whatever the

00:32:34.680 issue might be has nothing to do with your friend, nothing.

00:32:37.900 Cause if you knew they were going to respond positively, then you wouldn't have any issue

00:32:41.820 with it at all.

00:32:42.820 So it's the fact that you're going to be uncomfortable, not that you, you know, care about their own

00:32:47.660 well-being.

00:32:48.740 Is it a hundred percent?

00:32:49.840 Yeah.

00:32:50.160 I was going to ask Brooke to talk about this.

00:32:52.200 This, this is a big, a big, uh, element of Brooke's basketball team and something I try

00:32:56.500 to live out.

00:32:57.060 Can you go deeper on that Brooke?

00:32:58.440 Because Ryan's dead on with this thing of how it's a, a selfish act to not tell a teammate

00:33:04.080 that they're not living up to the standard.

00:33:06.140 Yeah.

00:33:06.240 It, it just shows that you care more about yourself than you care about your friend or

00:33:09.800 you care about the team.

00:33:10.800 It's a, it's under our unified, uh, core value and our unified behavior is speak and

00:33:17.140 act with urgency.

00:33:17.800 So, I mean, if you see a teammate skip a rep in the weight room and you don't say anything,

00:33:22.700 you're just choosing your comfort over what you know is good for the team.

00:33:26.220 It's, it's really that simple.

00:33:27.720 It's, it's not about them.

00:33:29.680 It's about you and your selfishness.

00:33:32.360 That's what it's about.

00:33:34.640 Yeah.

00:33:35.800 Yeah.

00:33:36.160 It's hard to overcome because I know there's a lot of people who don't like confrontation.

00:33:40.300 Um, you know, they, they, they don't want to feel uncomfortable.

00:33:43.480 They're, they're insecure with the way they approach it.

00:33:45.520 And, and also to be fair, most people don't handle constructive criticism in a, in a positive

00:33:52.300 way.

00:33:52.840 Right.

00:33:53.180 So if one of you guys came to me and said, Hey Ryan, like I've noticed things are off.

00:33:56.920 Like what can we do to help?

00:33:58.460 Or, Hey, you're slacking off or looks like you put on a few pounds.

00:34:01.380 Like most people are going to get defensive.

00:34:03.900 Uh, you know, most people are going to explode.

00:34:05.900 Most people are going to train you not to come talk to me the way that I need to be talked

00:34:09.640 to.

00:34:10.620 You know, agreed a hundred percent.

00:34:13.880 I've had bosses like this in the past.

00:34:15.460 In fact, that they say overtly, I want all the feedback, bring it to me, give it to me

00:34:20.720 because I want to get better.

00:34:21.700 I want to improve and I need you guys to help me out with that.

00:34:24.100 And you're like, okay, cool, cool, cool.

00:34:25.320 And then you actually do it in the, in the, at the first instant of that, they get defensive.

00:34:31.240 They start explaining why they did that thing that you're trying to help them with.

00:34:34.880 And what they're signaling to me is you say you want it, but you don't actually want it.

00:34:40.020 And so that's why I try to flip this when I say, okay, now you're in the leadership role,

00:34:43.960 which we all are.

00:34:44.740 And let's say you have informed your people that this is what you want.

00:34:50.260 You have to be ready to accept it.

00:34:52.740 You don't have to necessarily agree with it, but you have to be ready for it to come.

00:34:56.400 And when it does, the, the, the, the, probably the best thing you could say is thank you.

00:35:02.300 Thank you.

00:35:02.780 That doesn't mean you agree with it.

00:35:03.840 It doesn't mean you're actually going to change.

00:35:05.300 It should mean you should at least think about it, especially for the people you're asking,

00:35:09.160 but it's how you receive feedback is going to condition others, whether they can actually

00:35:15.160 give it to you or not.

00:35:16.380 So if you condition them to say, oh, Ryan told me he wanted feedback, his actions are saying

00:35:23.640 something else that is, yeah, it sounds good to say, I want feedback.

00:35:28.000 However, he just started blaming other things and complaining a little bit and then explaining 0.99

00:35:33.680 why he did that thing that was really stupid. 0.98

00:35:37.220 So what, what that tells me is he doesn't actually want it. 0.99

00:35:40.460 So I'm not going to give it to him.

00:35:42.240 That's why those self-awareness stats are so low.

00:35:45.040 I think because we all have examples probably of bosses or other friends or people in our

00:35:50.140 lives who tell us that, but they don't actually mean it.

00:35:53.380 And that's a bummer.

00:35:54.020 And so like, hopefully like the stuff that we're writing about and talking about could,

00:35:58.680 could, could help people with that.

00:35:59.840 Because I do think you can grow and you can, you can get better at this.

00:36:02.820 I think I probably struggled with it early in my career and have gotten steadily better

00:36:07.180 or be maybe just out of age and maturity.

00:36:08.860 I'm not really sure, but it's really about trying to be intentional of giving feedback

00:36:13.720 as well as how you receive feedback from others to condition them to say, yeah, I actually

00:36:18.740 want this.

00:36:19.460 I want to improve and you can help me and I want your help.

00:36:23.780 Yeah.

00:36:24.180 I mean, a good indicator for me in my life with that, because I've caught myself at times

00:36:28.920 saying, you know, like, why don't my, why don't my people talk with me?

00:36:32.240 Like, why don't my kids talk with me about what they're dealing with?

00:36:34.960 Or why don't the people in our organization explain to me the problem?

00:36:38.500 And it might be just their lack of ability to communicate effectively.

00:36:42.160 Sure.

00:36:42.360 There's part of that. 1.00

00:36:43.900 But I think more often than not, it's like, well, you're an asshole when they talk to you. 1.00

00:36:47.780 So why would they want to talk to you? 1.00

00:36:49.560 Right.

00:36:49.860 And if you can be to your point, right, and be self-aware about that and say, you know,

00:36:54.300 maybe I'm not as gracious with that feedback or, or maybe I'm not as empathetic or kind

00:36:58.700 or, uh, nurturing with that information as I could be, especially with my kids.

00:37:03.300 Like I want them to be able to communicate with me when things are going wrong, you know,

00:37:07.620 like, ah, man, the amount of peer pressure, whether it's drug, drug use or, uh, you know,

00:37:14.000 pornography or anything like I want them to be able to talk with me about that so we can

00:37:18.160 address it effectively. 0.99

00:37:19.120 But I can't do that if I'm just going to be a dick every time they come to me and, you 0.95

00:37:23.080 know, bear their soul or explain to me what they might be dealing with. 0.96

00:37:26.100 So the reason, the reason that we, we struggle with the conflict is because we don't have

00:37:31.680 the foundation of trust to start with, whether if it's an individual basis, we don't trust

00:37:36.420 that you want what's best for me.

00:37:38.140 Maybe you're trying to manipulate and maybe you're just trying to be right, but I don't

00:37:40.660 trust that you're in it with me.

00:37:42.780 And then same thing from a team perspective.

00:37:44.820 I don't trust that your priorities, the team I trust, I think you're about you.

00:37:48.480 And so it's really hard for me to take feedback if that level of trust isn't already established.

00:37:54.140 Yeah.

00:37:54.540 Well, so on that point then, because nothing happens in a vacuum and everything, every

00:38:00.200 opportunity and every goal and everything else that we have in life is always not contingent

00:38:05.600 upon, but will include other people.

00:38:07.740 What is the best way that you guys would suggest that we begin to build trust, whether it's

00:38:11.500 in a personal relationship, professional environment, on a team?

00:38:15.800 How do we begin to build trust with other people?

00:38:19.540 You got this.

00:38:20.400 I mean, I think there's only three ways to do it, or the three most effective ways are

00:38:26.260 laughing together, crying together, and suffering together.

00:38:30.260 And so figuring out ways to engineer laughter together, which is usually pretty easy.

00:38:38.640 Suffering together.

00:38:39.400 I tell my team, I'm pretty good at that.

00:38:41.460 I can make sure we handle that.

00:38:43.600 But doing hard things together is a very bonding trust bill, because you know guys aren't cashing

00:38:48.360 out on you.

00:38:49.900 And then crying together, we see the vulnerability piece of things and what hurts us and is then

00:38:55.220 not used against us.

00:38:56.480 So I think those three things, just trying to think about whether it's my family, I want

00:39:02.640 to laugh together, cry together, suffer together, whether it's my team, figure out ways to laugh

00:39:07.000 together, cry together, suffer together.

00:39:08.400 You think about the people that you're the closest with, that you trust the most, you've

00:39:12.120 done those things with them.

00:39:14.040 Yeah, that's true.

00:39:14.700 That's why we see it so much in teams, sports specifically, why we see it in the military.

00:39:20.940 But what ends up happening with a man is he gets out of the military, he wraps up his sports

00:39:25.800 in high school or college, or maybe the select few who go on to professional sports.

00:39:31.920 But they lose that, right?

00:39:33.080 They lose the sports, they lose the military service, and then they go into a cubicle,

00:39:37.220 and they're alone, they're isolated, and they're not doing any of that.

00:39:40.640 They're doing it themselves, to themselves, with themselves, but they're not doing that

00:39:43.840 with anybody else.

00:39:45.200 And so you have this epidemic of male loneliness, which leads to a lot of depression,

00:39:50.000 anxiety, and eventually even suicide.

00:39:53.400 Yeah, I think in addition to the laughing, crying, and suffering as a team, on an individual

00:39:58.460 basis, I do think it's important for us to be intentional about being both trustworthy

00:40:03.520 and trust willing.

00:40:06.420 And I understand that not everybody is like this, but one of the big things with trust

00:40:11.460 for me that I learned, I remember having multiple conversations with Jim Collins about this,

00:40:16.240 is that him and his mentor, Bill Lazier, said it's called making the trust wager.

00:40:20.000 You can either make people earn your trust, or you can give it freely without making somebody

00:40:26.740 earn it.

00:40:27.960 And that sounds crazy initially to a lot of people, and I understand why it would, but

00:40:32.300 I actually think it's a much better way to live.

00:40:34.280 Meaning, I trust you.

00:40:36.560 You don't have to earn my trust.

00:40:37.980 I believe in the good of you.

00:40:40.500 For that, I am okay with getting burned every once in a while.

00:40:45.940 Because by living as a both trustworthy and trust willing person, I feel like it creates

00:40:52.100 better odds that trustworthy and trust willing people will be attracted to me and will be

00:40:59.500 in my orbit more often than if I'm cynical or I make people go to certain extremes to earn

00:41:06.460 my trust.

00:41:08.020 And yes, I think it's worth it to get burned or taken advantage of every once in a while

00:41:13.860 to be both trustworthy and trust willing so that people don't have to earn it.

00:41:18.760 And to me, it seems like it just opened doors for really cool opportunities as well as relationships.

00:41:26.800 And it seems to work as a magnetic effect to the type of people that I want to be around.

00:41:32.820 Certainly, when I'm in the space of hiring people or trying to get people to work on my

00:41:37.720 team, if they know that that's part of who you are, it makes it a more attractive place

00:41:42.680 to be.

00:41:43.040 And so I try to do that.

00:41:44.560 I'm not perfect.

00:41:45.360 I mess it up from time to time.

00:41:47.440 But I think that's something I try to be intentional about as well.

00:41:51.340 Yeah, I think the only exception to what you're saying might be if I'm going in for brain surgery

00:41:57.980 or if I'm going to literal war with another individual.

00:42:01.940 I've got to know because that's a life and death situation.

00:42:04.500 But outside of that, man, if I lose a couple grand because I decided to trust somebody and

00:42:08.840 they faltered on that, I think what you said.

00:42:12.560 Yeah, I might lose a couple of grand.

00:42:14.340 But in the long term, me being trust willing, I like that term, will yield far more than

00:42:21.000 the $2,000 or whatever I may have lost in that one interaction or exchange.

00:42:24.860 You're a military guy, right?

00:42:26.800 You fought in Ramadi and in wars.

00:42:29.060 But this is why the military does what they do.

00:42:31.900 They do laugh together.

00:42:33.380 They do cry together.

00:42:34.500 And they do a lot of hard things together in order to build that trust as a group, as

00:42:39.200 a team, and especially you take it up another notch, Navy SEALs, the Rangers, all of that

00:42:44.580 stuff, again, which I know you know all about more than I do.

00:42:48.380 They are intentional about all of the work that goes into building a SEAL long before they

00:42:55.780 would ever put him or her, I guess, side by side with another one shoulder to shoulder

00:43:00.920 where you literally could die.

00:43:02.380 So I think there are elements of that in teams as well as individuals.

00:43:08.560 But yeah, I agree.

00:43:09.680 I think the military seems to be at least really good about intentionally building trust by

00:43:16.280 having people do a lot of hard stuff together long before it's a life and death situation.

00:43:21.760 And that's why I'm very proud and glad that I live here because we have people who are out

00:43:27.020 there like you who are serving, keeping us all safe and doing a lot of hard stuff leading

00:43:33.440 up to life and death situation.

00:43:35.820 Well, it's also a good weeding out process.

00:43:37.580 And this goes to something you guys were talking about earlier, bringing the right people in,

00:43:41.460 surrounding yourself with the right people.

00:43:43.380 Man, if you don't cut it, if you don't hack it, you're out.

00:43:46.220 So there's a litmus test.

00:43:48.280 There's barriers.

00:43:50.040 And if you don't hack it, you're not going to be standing next to me.

00:43:53.540 I think that's part of the reason why, you know, for example, I love jujitsu.

00:43:58.960 I love training jujitsu.

00:44:00.280 I love the guys that I train with. 0.98

00:44:02.200 But I know these guys aren't pussies. 0.99

00:44:03.820 Like I know that when things are hard and challenging, like they're still going. 0.95

00:44:08.240 They show up with bruises and, you know, sprains and strains and tears and broken limbs.

00:44:16.580 And like they're still there.

00:44:17.840 So I know at a minimum, I know that's somebody who's tough and can continue on a course of action

00:44:25.400 despite the hardship they may be currently dealing with.

00:44:28.180 And I think, again, we talked about this earlier.

00:44:30.160 It's very translatable.

00:44:31.760 If a guy can do that in jujitsu, then I'm more confident he can do that in his business

00:44:35.620 and other facets of life.

00:44:37.700 Brooke, do you have anything to add on that?

00:44:39.260 No, I'm with you.

00:44:40.560 We have, we work out at, did you lose me again?

00:44:44.220 Can you hear me?

00:44:45.520 You're good.

00:44:45.900 We got you.

00:44:46.420 Yeah, we got you.

00:44:46.920 All right.

00:44:47.760 We work out at 6 a.m. every morning before school.

00:44:50.680 And sometimes we'll get kids that'll go to trainers now.

00:44:53.300 That's a big thing.

00:44:54.380 Like they have their own basketball trainer or their own speed and agility trainer.

00:44:59.100 And what I just, I tell them is that's fine.

00:45:02.500 You can do that.

00:45:03.140 But it has to be in addition to what we're doing because that suffering together, I need

00:45:08.200 to see you at 6 a.m.

00:45:09.680 It's less the workout than it is me seeing you at 6 a.m.

00:45:14.300 making that sacrifice for us.

00:45:16.040 That's more important.

00:45:18.100 And so it takes a little bit for guys to understand that.

00:45:20.760 Yeah, there's the optics behind it, right?

00:45:24.020 Like, hey, that guy's showing, he doesn't want to be here.

00:45:26.220 We know he wasn't trying to did something else.

00:45:27.760 And yet he's still here with us.

00:45:29.580 It speaks a lot into that guy's character.

00:45:32.480 One of the other chapters you guys talk about, and I'm really interested in this one, is talking

00:45:35.860 about role players.

00:45:37.100 You say, we're all role players.

00:45:38.880 Naturally, I think when somebody hears that, we think role, you know, and there's some

00:45:43.900 maybe even negative connotation with that in modern culture, like traditional roles and

00:45:48.160 this sort of thing.

00:45:49.240 What are you guys talking about when you say we're all role players?

00:45:53.040 I think of, people think of roles, like you said, almost as a negative term.

00:45:57.580 And like, it's showing you less than what you're really capable, not letting me be free, do

00:46:02.980 what I can, like you're putting constraints on me.

00:46:06.200 We look at roles as completely the opposite.

00:46:09.100 When we can operate within our strengths in the way that we would contribute to a team

00:46:14.400 the most, that's when you're at your very best.

00:46:18.460 And so we think of roles as being empowering rather than limiting.

00:46:22.240 I'm empowering you to contribute to the group and to the team the most you possibly can by

00:46:29.340 helping clarify your role for you.

00:46:32.200 And we all have roles.

00:46:34.100 Like the leading scorer on a basketball team has a role.

00:46:36.960 That seems like a great role until you can't make a shot.

00:46:39.340 Not such a fun role when you've got to go try to score, right?

00:46:43.280 We all have roles.

00:46:44.560 Some of them get more glamour and more recognition than others.

00:46:47.740 But understanding that everybody is a piece of that and we all kind of go at it together

00:46:52.780 more like a pack of wolves than a, you know, than a lone lion or tiger.

00:46:59.800 Yeah, I think where, you know, you run into issues and you alluded to it, Brooke, is when

00:47:03.980 you have certain roles that don't get the notoriety, praise, accolades that the majority of us desire.

00:47:10.300 You know, if you're looking at it from the context of sports, the offensive line is not going

00:47:15.560 to get the accolades that the running back or the star receiver, the quarterback will receive.

00:47:19.340 And, you know, that can be real challenging if you're in one of those crucial roles, but

00:47:23.060 you're not getting acknowledged for it.

00:47:25.580 Ryan, what do you think?

00:47:26.920 Well, I mean, I think, I mean, I think that I got to play the most glamorized role there

00:47:31.580 is in sports as a quarterback, at least in the sport of football.

00:47:34.740 And I think it's so important for both the coaching staff and the players to really highlight

00:47:43.660 the excellence, especially of the people who don't get any of that pub, most notably your

00:47:49.820 offensive line.

00:47:50.880 And so I remember my dad was very helpful with this of how that we loved and took care of

00:47:57.140 those guys, how we recognize them publicly, how when, if they asked to do a story about

00:48:01.240 me, it's those guys are going to be with me or they're going to be in the pictures too.

00:48:05.300 We're going to have them over for dinner once a week.

00:48:07.120 We're going to make sweatshirts that say O-line domination with their name and number on it.

00:48:11.340 Like we're going to really go all out to shine a bright light on the people who don't get

00:48:16.040 any of the notoriety.

00:48:16.980 In fact, they really only get noticed if they commit a penalty, like a holding call, or they

00:48:21.720 let a guy run straight through and sack me.

00:48:23.680 So I think like they don't really get any of the upside, only the downside.

00:48:27.460 So for those roles, whether it's in business or it's in sports, it's on us as the leaders,

00:48:33.780 I think to go the extra mile to make sure that you're shining a bright light on them

00:48:39.600 and them doing their role to the best of their ability.

00:48:42.140 I know Brooke has something called moments of greatness where they highlight that type

00:48:47.200 of stuff, guys setting screens, playing defense, living up to the core values of the team.

00:48:52.020 Maybe he can expand on these moments of greatness because I believe moments of greatness, moments

00:48:56.200 of excellence, you can call it whatever you want, highlighting people living up to your

00:48:59.860 company's core values.

00:49:00.920 This absolutely translates into life off of the basketball court or off the football field.

00:49:06.140 You could do it in your business right now.

00:49:08.280 Yeah.

00:49:08.480 I mean, moments of greatness are really just opportunities after games for players to highlight

00:49:13.600 contributions by other players.

00:49:15.600 And what tends to happen is your best players end up highlighting the players that don't get

00:49:21.660 to play or we're on the scout team or we're handing them water or we're reminding them

00:49:27.880 of things at timeouts, which is very powerful for your team when your players that are viewed

00:49:34.920 as your best players are recognizing the contributions of your players that don't get the same glamour

00:49:41.720 and pub.

00:49:42.120 So it's a pretty empowering and pretty cool exercise.

00:49:47.100 We do it after every game.

00:49:49.060 Yeah.

00:49:49.580 I imagine that...

00:49:51.120 Go ahead, Ryan.

00:49:51.940 Ryan, I was just going to practical way.

00:49:53.240 Like, let's say you're leading a team in a business and a lot of these teams have Monday

00:49:57.200 meetings or whatever staff meetings.

00:49:58.940 I ran these.

00:50:00.180 You know, you try to make them worth it.

00:50:03.820 And one of the ways I think you could work, this is a great way to open your Monday meeting

00:50:06.900 if you have a team or you're leading them, is moments of greatness of people on your team

00:50:11.500 recognizing others living up to the values that your team has set.

00:50:15.940 Speaking of specific examples, Jameson mentored our new person and I overheard him explaining

00:50:22.520 to her how to make this call or how to respond to this objection, whatever it may be.

00:50:27.280 Like, these are real things that we did.

00:50:28.860 And so you could do those right now.

00:50:30.820 You could create a new, I guess, segment of your meetings that are moments of greatness

00:50:36.060 in the business world where teammates are noticing great things about other teammates.

00:50:41.000 Think about that as a kickoff to your week as opposed to the standard Monday meetings that...

00:50:46.840 Well, I don't know if Brooke's been in those, but I know I've been in a lot of them where

00:50:49.420 you're like, oh my God, this is awful, right?

00:50:52.080 But what if it started that way for the first 20 minutes?

00:50:54.560 Like, you'd probably be the best manager in the company or at least people would say,

00:50:58.020 I want to be on that team, right?

00:50:59.540 So like thinking of different ways to recognize excellence in others and the core values that

00:51:04.080 you set for your team, not necessarily like, oh, look, here's the biggest sales of the

00:51:07.680 week.

00:51:07.920 Like, we can all see that.

00:51:09.580 We're not...

00:51:09.860 We don't...

00:51:10.140 We understand the results.

00:51:11.400 We want to talk about the actual behaviors in alignment with our values that we want to

00:51:15.940 recognize.

00:51:16.440 And if you do that, then I'm guessing the results will most likely follow.

00:51:22.120 Yeah.

00:51:22.460 You know, one thing I've heard in the past that has really struck with me is that you deflect

00:51:28.740 praise and you embrace criticism.

00:51:31.080 So like, for example, your example of playing quarterback, when you get praised by the local

00:51:36.700 paper or news station, it's, hey, you know what?

00:51:40.760 Like, yeah, we had a great game.

00:51:42.900 My offensive line stepped up.

00:51:44.560 These receivers ran the routes they were supposed to.

00:51:46.860 They played hard.

00:51:47.640 They got yards after the catch.

00:51:49.580 Like, these guys were phenomenal.

00:51:51.380 And then when the reporter comes to you and says, hey, man, you guys had a horrible game.

00:51:56.420 You know, you don't say, yeah, our offensive line sucked today.

00:51:59.360 You say, yeah, you know, I wasn't making reads.

00:52:02.460 I wasn't quick in the pocket.

00:52:04.720 You know, I wasn't dialed the way I should be.

00:52:08.000 And man, that, if anything, that is a true sign of a leader and somebody that other people

00:52:13.280 want to band with.

00:52:14.720 Agree, man.

00:52:15.500 I was lucky to have great coaches.

00:52:17.920 One of the examples was, hey, if there's a fumbled snap, I don't care if the center rolled

00:52:23.140 the ball on the ground and never went near your hands.

00:52:25.360 It's on you, right?

00:52:26.580 It's on you, and that goes for everything.

00:52:28.340 So, whatever the thing is, it's on you.

00:52:30.560 And now, when it goes well, certainly, we're going to give love.

00:52:33.500 Because it's not lying.

00:52:34.500 It's telling the truth.

00:52:35.260 If you guys score 50 points, my guess is your linemen played pretty well, right?

00:52:40.240 My guess is they played pretty well.

00:52:41.700 So, it's not like it's lying, but it's just shifting the love to the place where it belongs,

00:52:48.280 right?

00:52:48.480 Probably the most important part of, in this case, a football team.

00:52:50.960 So, it's regularly looking for opportunities to give credit where it's probably due, but

00:52:56.060 for whatever reason, they're not getting it.

00:52:57.640 And then, certainly, if it goes wrong, it's the leader's responsibility.

00:53:01.740 It's on us to get it right if we're not getting the result that we want.

00:53:06.160 I mean, it isn't that the people that we love anyways, whether it's in the movies, we see

00:53:10.780 the humble servant, the humble leader, and those are the people that we aspire to be

00:53:15.080 like.

00:53:15.540 And it's difficult because our own ego gets in the way, but then it gets to real life

00:53:20.240 and you forget who you would actually follow and whether or not you're being that kind

00:53:24.460 of person or not.

00:53:26.000 One of my questions is around the subject of roles, and I know we're getting close against

00:53:31.140 time, so maybe we can do a rapid fire on this.

00:53:33.140 But what if somebody finds themselves in a role they're not thrilled about?

00:53:38.320 You know, I hear from a lot of guys who are in current professionals, current work.

00:53:42.620 Maybe they're not being appreciated.

00:53:43.940 Maybe they don't like what they do, and they're always looking for something else.

00:53:46.720 What do you say to that guy?

00:53:47.780 Is it double down on the current work?

00:53:50.100 Is it go find something new?

00:53:51.720 Where's the line?

00:53:52.720 What recommendation would you give to a person like that?

00:53:57.740 My first instinct would be to have them talk to whoever the leader is and help them

00:54:02.920 understand what their value is.

00:54:05.120 Like, is that role that they're doing?

00:54:06.600 How is it contributing to the greater good?

00:54:08.340 Because I think a lot of times people lose their passion for their role because they don't

00:54:13.480 understand how it fits in.

00:54:14.580 They don't understand how valuable it is.

00:54:17.020 So I would say first, go try to find that out.

00:54:19.420 And then if you don't think you can operate well within your role, go find a role that you

00:54:24.340 can.

00:54:24.940 What do you think, Ryan?

00:54:26.440 I kind of wanted to hear all of Brooke's answer there.

00:54:29.200 Can you repeat it, man?

00:54:30.800 I broke up in the middle.

00:54:32.440 Okay.

00:54:33.180 I think it's more about helping them understand the value of their role and how they contribute

00:54:41.080 to the greater good of the entire team and the success of the team.

00:54:44.580 I think people lose their zest and their desire to fulfill their role when they don't see

00:54:53.060 it contributing to the good of the whole group.

00:54:56.160 And so I would try to help them find that.

00:54:58.660 And then if that's not something that appeals to them, then I think you've got to go do

00:55:03.620 something else.

00:55:04.940 Your life's not long enough to be miserable in your role or your job.

00:55:08.620 Go find something that you can be on fire for.

00:55:11.220 Yeah, and I agree completely.

00:55:15.200 I think we're very aligned with understanding strengths, how that strength and what you

00:55:21.840 bring to the table ultimately helps the overall group.

00:55:24.980 My dad was really big on this when I became a new manager.

00:55:27.060 He's like, you've got to make sure each member of your team has a vividly clear mission for

00:55:33.460 how they are going to help us achieve this big thing we're going for.

00:55:37.600 And them specifically.

00:55:38.680 And so that's why the one-on-ones are so important.

00:55:41.540 The open lines of communication are really important.

00:55:44.100 That there's feedback going both ways with your people.

00:55:47.220 That you're showing you actually really care about them.

00:55:49.340 You're trying to get to know them deeply.

00:55:50.820 Like, how are they wired?

00:55:52.460 And I remember one of my first ever issues with somebody who I thought was an over-sharer 1.00

00:55:57.440 with me as their manager.

00:55:59.040 This is a woman who was twice my age almost.

00:56:01.740 And I thought, like, why is she telling me all these things about her personal life and all

00:56:05.280 this stuff going on that's bad?

00:56:06.560 I was shocked because I would never tell my boss that stuff.

00:56:09.160 I'm like, I'm going to come in and hammer the phones and do the work and try to help

00:56:14.280 our company.

00:56:15.280 And my dad said, hey, because she's not you.

00:56:17.020 And she's different.

00:56:17.800 And it's your job as the leader to understand that.

00:56:20.760 You have 17 people reporting to you.

00:56:22.540 And there are 17 different individuals.

00:56:24.300 As the leader, you've got to do the hard work to understand each of those people and

00:56:28.320 then the roles that they play on the team.

00:56:29.740 And it's part of your responsibility is like, oh, God, this is a lot harder than I thought.

00:56:33.960 So, I mean, I think that's also, by the way, a good reason why it's so easy to, like, yell.

00:56:40.360 Brooke has a game tonight and there'll be a lot of fans probably yelling at him or the 1.00

00:56:43.400 other coach about how stupid they are. 1.00

00:56:45.520 It's because those people in the cheap seats, they don't know what it's like in that seat. 1.00

00:56:50.600 Right? 1.00

00:56:50.740 So, it's so easy to yell at them about how stupid they are when it's just like, you have 1.00

00:56:55.980 no idea. 1.00

00:56:56.900 You have no idea.

00:56:57.640 So, I know that's a little bit of an off your – it's off your question, Ryan.

00:57:01.380 But to me, like, that's just important to first understand, though.

00:57:06.620 Try to understand what it's like in that person's seat before you're highly critical

00:57:11.020 of it, especially if you've never done it.

00:57:14.000 Yeah.

00:57:15.220 Well, Ryan, Brooke, I appreciate you guys.

00:57:17.100 I appreciate your time.

00:57:18.160 Will you guys let the men who listen know where to connect with you so they can learn

00:57:22.380 more about what you guys are up to?

00:57:24.160 And, obviously, the book is The Score That Matters, and that's out today as of the release

00:57:28.840 of this podcast.

00:57:30.240 Yeah.

00:57:30.640 The Score That Matters, the title of the book, you know, anywhere books are sold.

00:57:33.380 We both did the audio for it as well.

00:57:35.420 If you like to – if you're already an audio listener and you prefer that, you can get

00:57:39.520 an audio.

00:57:40.580 And then my stuff's all for my podcast is on learningleader.com.

00:57:44.620 And, Brooke?

00:57:45.260 I do a weekly blog on bluecollargrit.com, and that's about it.

00:57:52.680 I'm not a whole lot on social media, but hopefully you enjoy the book.

00:57:56.780 Ryan, great meeting you.

00:57:58.520 Appreciate your service.

00:58:00.080 Thank you for having us.

00:58:01.480 Thanks, guys.

00:58:02.120 Appreciate it.

00:58:02.740 Man, there you go, my conversation with Ryan Hawk and Brooke Cupps.

00:58:08.400 I hope you enjoyed that one.

00:58:09.920 Again, these are very, very qualified individuals to have these conversations about leadership,

00:58:13.960 and that's what we do here.

00:58:15.260 We bring those people who are qualified to talk about these things in unique and interesting

00:58:18.640 ways, practical ways, and then ultimately give us some information that we can apply.

00:58:23.220 So I would highly suggest that you pick up a copy of their book, which I have read, The

00:58:26.920 Score That Matters, Growing Excellence in Yourself and Those You Lead.

00:58:31.620 Take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on Instagram, post it on Twitter, post it on

00:58:35.700 Facebook, wherever you're doing your social media stuff, and tag me as well.

00:58:39.620 And I'll share it on my end.

00:58:40.540 If I see that you guys post something and share it, then I'm also going to share it on

00:58:45.500 my end.

00:58:46.560 So be on the lookout for that.

00:58:48.640 In the meantime, please make sure you go check out The Iron Council.

00:58:51.740 We've got a thousand plus brothers inside The Iron Council, all working to serve each

00:58:55.220 other and lift each other up, edify, promote, and to hold each other's feet to the fire.

00:58:59.140 If you're looking for good men in your corner that are going to help you improve your life,

00:59:04.100 then look no further than theironcouncil.com.

00:59:08.600 All right, gentlemen, we'll be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

00:59:12.200 Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

00:59:17.320 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

00:59:19.960 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

00:59:24.360 we invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.

00:59:27.480 Then we'll be right back.

00:59:34.480 Yeah.

00:59:34.780 Glad to be with you.

00:59:35.960 Thank you.

00:59:38.940 Thank you.

Order of Man - March 19, 2024

Growing Excellence in Yourself and Others ｜ RYAN HAWK & BROOK CUPPS

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Order of Man - March 19, 2024

Growing Excellence in Yourself and Others ｜ RYAN HAWK &#x26; BROOK CUPPS

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Growing Excellence in Yourself and Others ｜ RYAN HAWK & BROOK CUPPS