Growing Excellence in Yourself and Others ｜ RYAN HAWK & BROOK CUPPS
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Summary
Ryan Hawk and Brooke Cupps know a lot about the tools required to lead, as they are both extremely successful in leading others in their own right. Today we talk about the 3 most powerful ways to build trust, laughing, crying, and suffering, why it s crucial to deflect praise and embrace criticism, and the difference between intuitive and analytical leading. You re a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time every time. This is your life, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
Transcript
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Men are called a lead, but too many men lack the skillset to do it effectively.
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The good news is that much of the skillset required to lead can be learned, developed
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and harnessed to serve the people you care about.
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It's just a matter of whether or not men decide to invest in the tools available to better
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their lives and the lives of the people around them.
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My guests today, Ryan Hawk and Brooke Cupps know a lot about the tools required as they
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are both extremely successful in leading others in their own right.
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Today, we talk about the three most powerful ways to build trust, laughing, crying, and
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suffering, the difference and importance between being trustworthy and trust giving, why it's
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crucial to deflect praise and embrace criticism, how curiosity serves your most important relationships
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and the difference between intuitive and analytical leading.
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You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.
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When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
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You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
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At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
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Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.
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My name is Ryan Michler, and it is our job to give you as a man the tools you need to thrive
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and grow and develop and build yourself and those around you, both professionally, personally,
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I've got a very, very good conversation with Ryan Hawk and Brooke Cupps.
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And every time Ryan comes on the podcast, I get so much positive feedback about his ability to
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learn, acquire new information, apply that information, and then better his life.
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And of course, anybody who tunes in and applies, including myself, I've been a big recipient
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of the information that he shared, and it's been beneficial in my life.
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Before we get into that, though, just want to mention my friends and show sponsors over
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As you know, you've been hearing me talk about them for months now.
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All right, guys, with that said, let me introduce you to my two guests.
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This is both of these guys are joining me today.
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Ryan Hawk is the creator and the host of The Learning Leader Show.
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He works with teams and players in the NFL, NBA, MLB, NCAA.
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He facilitates what he calls leadership circles that really offers structured guidance and
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He is the author of Welcome to Management, The Pursuit of Excellence.
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Those have been named by Forbes as, quote, the best leadership book of 2020.
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And then The Pursuit of Excellence, quote, the most dynamic leadership book of 2022.
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So this guy clearly has some things to talk about on the importance and how to lead effectively.
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Now, Brooke Cupps, he is the co-author of their newest book, The Score That Matters.
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He has been a high school basketball coach for more than 20 years.
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He's won numerous conference, district, and regional championships.
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He's also taken his high school, Centerville High School's first ever basketball state championship
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Now, he's also spent the last eight years coaching grassroots basketball.
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He's helped guide the North Coast Blue Chips to national championships in 2014 and 2019.
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So again, we have another individual who is clearly qualified to lead other people.
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And then he also publishes weekly essays on leadership and coaching.
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So I'm very excited to have both Ryan Hawk and Brooke Cupps, again, the co-authors of their
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newest book, The Score That Matters, Growing Excellence in Yourself and Those You Lead.
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Ryan, Brooke, thanks for joining me today on the podcast.
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You know, as I was going through the book, I think even the title is pretty fascinating
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to me because I think there's this idea, this idea in culture and society today that the
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score that really counts is, you know, your bank account or your followers, right?
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Or all these things that are pretty easy to quantify, but I don't really think speak to
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the depth of a man's character and what he's trying to accomplish in life.
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So I think if we can set the framework for the discussion on what is the score that matters,
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we can dive deeper into it and help guys get to that point where they're actually looking
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at valuable metrics rather than the ones that culture tells you you should look at.
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I feel like in this project, particularly Ryan, that I got to play the role of more like
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And that uniquely gives two different perspectives.
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I hope at least for the reader to see what it feels like as the person kind of trying to improve
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each day and to be taught the lesson as well as you get the perspective from the teacher.
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So I feel like that's a unique thing we can bring to this when it comes to like what the
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And I've learned that mostly from my work with Brooke on my core values and my purpose
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and the critical behaviors that match the core values.
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But for me, that's been like the cool part of really trying to understand like the score
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And I think Brooke can kind of go deeper on that.
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Yeah, I think this, you know, we landed on the title.
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I think maybe Liam or one of our friends kind of helped us put it into words, but it turned
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I think of the score that matters as being, I mean, to state it as simply as you can, the
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But I think of taking a lift to the top of a mountain versus climbing the mountain are
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two completely different things and you have the same result at the end.
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And so that process, embracing that process and understanding that you have the choice
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of defining that for yourself and you do not have to rely on, you know, society's definition
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So hopefully empowering the reader to understand and kind of look at it from a different lens.
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Yeah, I agree with the concept of the process over the outcome.
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I think, you know, you often hear things like the ends justify the means.
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I think the means are more important than the ends.
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And not ironically, if you take care of the means, the ends will naturally take care of
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You know, it's easy to, you know, steal from somebody and you could say that's building
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wealth, but you know, you're stealing from somebody.
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You're doing something that's not righteous, but in the macro over the long term, I think
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doing the right thing will inevitably yield the right result, something that we're all
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It seems that the ones who win the most, whether it's Bill Walsh and his book, The Score That
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Takes Care of Itself, talking about champions behave like champions long before they win a
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championship, or even someone like in Brook's case, where he brings a new way of approaching
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each day, a more process centered, goal setting style to the Centerville basketball program.
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And it was a team and a school that was known for other sports that had done much better in
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other sports that had done okay at the sport of basketball.
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And they shift to kind of the way he lives his life, this value centered, process oriented
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And what happens, you know, final fours, state championships, like all the things that people
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want and say they strive for, even though those weren't really necessarily goals that those
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It was really about how we show up each day and attacking opportunities with purpose.
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That's what's exciting to me is you can marry the process and almost divorce yourself with
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the results, and yet the results seem to be the things that you want to get.
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Yeah, it's interesting that all of these skills, and we'll break it down here in the next little
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bit, but all of these skills are translatable, you know, whether it's across different sports
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that you might be playing, or, you know, the way you show up at the gym is going to be the
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way you show up in a relationship is going to be the way you show up in business.
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Um, my question is this, and this is something I've wrestled with, because clearly the outcome
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We all have goals, we all have desires, ambitions, and I think we should, I don't, I don't think
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But where does that fit in the puzzle or the process of this, this process oriented approach
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Because clearly having a goal is important, and I don't think it's one or the other.
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I think it's probably where we place our emphasis or how much emphasis we place on one over the
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I mean, I think of it, I think of it more as an experimenter's mindset, right?
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Like we are trying to, we're going to establish a process that we think gives us the best chance
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of achieving whatever outcome we would like to have.
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And then we're going to choose lead metrics that guide that process to measure and to talk
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And if we don't get the outcome that we want, then the change is in the process that we,
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So, okay, I didn't, I didn't get it, what I wanted out of that process.
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I didn't get the result that I desired initially.
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So I got to look at my process and see what my process has to change.
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Just like if I'm in a, if I'm in a science lab and I'm doing an experiment and I don't
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get what I want, well, then I need to take a little bit of this out and put a little bit
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I think it's the same thing with our process as we reflect on it.
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The, the whole thing is like that being your focus, just like you said, Ryan, that being
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what, what all of our adjustment, what all of our focus is on, and then allowing that
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process to lead to whatever outcome it results in.
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One of the things though, that I, that I've done in my own life and I, and I see other
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guys making the mistake of is sometimes doing the right thing takes time to yield the result.
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And what I've done in my life and what I've seen other people do specifically, I even see,
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you know, my oldest son, he's going to be turning 16 next month.
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Well, in, in our town, this is the very first year that they've ever played.
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He does a lot of power lifting and strength training.
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Uh, now he's playing lacrosse doing the right thing.
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Like they're not going to go undefeated this year.
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I don't know, but that isn't always an indicator that they're doing the wrong thing.
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So how do you know that you're on the right path, even though you may not be experiencing
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Yeah, I think that's a, that's something that's harder and harder, uh, to relay to people and
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especially younger people now because of the immediate results they get and being able to
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door dash your food and all the different things that the, you know, the things that make life
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comfortable for us are all shortchanging the process for the most part.
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And I just, I think it's something we have to continue talking about, continue preaching and
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continue staying faithful to, you know, we are one of our phrases in our program.
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I guess my question is maybe to just push on that a little bit more is how do you know
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But if you're doing it wrong, like, I mean, you're, it's, it's futile.
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So that you, you look at the, you check the result, like you, you check it's, that's
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where the experimenter mindset comes in is I, I mean, I take, I take 20 swings on the
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tree and I check, am I, am I making any progress?
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But I think by continuously checking and like we, we talk about lead and lag metrics.
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And so, you know, checking those lead metrics and making sure that I'm doing the, I'm honoring
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Then I think more often than not, the process that we choose yields the result eventually.
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It's the willingness to stay with it and to continue doing it that most people quit on.
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But I think just continuously going back and checking and then continuing to swing is, is
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I actually, when I got promoted to, to become a first time manager, one of the things that
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bothered me is that they had certain metrics they wanted us to measure that I wasn't a hundred
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percent sold that those were the right metrics to be, to be marrying ourself to or the process
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to marry ourself to, because I didn't necessarily know based on my experience as a sales rep,
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And one of those were, were like whoever makes the most dials wins basically like it was a
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And so you were rewarded for two things, dials and phone time.
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And they always would like really shine bright lights and send emails and like give awards
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for people who made the most dials, made those phone calls and who spent the most time on
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Cause they thought that would give you the best chance to win.
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And, and I actually tried to re re, uh, engineer the top 10 people in the stack rankings.
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And it took like a long time and I got help from our sales operations people.
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And what I found out was actually was people who did more product demonstrations, not necessarily
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made the most dials cause they were having more productive conversations that eventually
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led to sales versus the person who just started pounding the phones, but weren't, wasn't very
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effective while on the phone or didn't get to product demo demonstrations or demos for short.
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So we started tracking the, the, the more of the process of people who were actually getting
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to demos, having demos, being good at demoing the product.
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They led to the result that we wanted much more than the person who just smiled and dialed
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And so that's like an, in, in the case of what we're saying is the, these were the wrong
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It seemed like that meant you were the hardest worker cause you dialed the phone the most,
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but in it, but what was happening is people started gaming systems because they wanted
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their name on the, on the leaderboards of dials.
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They started just calling their mom, like literally things like this were happening as opposed to
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doing real things that led to the result that we wanted.
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And so I, I really try to change things around there to get people to focus on what were the
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actual metrics that led to the ultimate result, getting sales that we wanted.
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And, uh, you know, I think that had an impact on the business as a whole, not just on my
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team, but on, but on teams around the business.
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And, um, uh, so like Brooke said, it is useful to look up every once in a while and say, are
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we actually value valuing the right behaviors to lead to the results that we want?
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I think the, uh, what you're talking about with the dials is just a great indicator of
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You know, if I go ask 10, 10 of my friends today, how things are going, all of them are
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I would love to lay by the pool this afternoon.
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You know, if we're, if we're looking at it from a sports analogy, you know, I think
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about, um, and this is going to date me because I don't really watch a lot of sports at this,
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And you take somebody like, you know, Tony Gwynn in baseball, the guy gets on base every
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time he's at bat versus somebody like maybe Mark McGuire, you know, the likelihood of him
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hitting a home run is probably pretty significant, but he doesn't get on base like Tony Gwynn
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You know, in the micro, the home runs look good.
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I'll take Tony Gwynn over Mark McGuire all day long.
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If I'm building a place, we're allowed to take steroids.
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Well, that might be the gaming that you were talking about earlier too.
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Um, I guess my question then the follow-up to that is how does a, how does a man, um,
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let's break it down into real practical terms for, uh, let's, let's take it in a relationship
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because I think we can look at in business here in a minute, but let's look at a relationship.
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What type of metrics should a guy be looking at and how does he know that he's choosing
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I think you got to figure out what you want in your relationship.
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So for me, uh, for example, one of the things my, my son and daughter just moved out.
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Um, she lives about an hour away from us prior to them leaving.
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That's what my, one of my core values is thankful.
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So I want touches in, in, it used to be in, in previous season of my life.
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I mean, I was in practice every day with my son.
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I was in with him in the gym every single morning.
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Um, so I had those, I had those significant touches every day that, that led to, uh, like
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me being able to express my gratitude and appreciation for our relationship.
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I've just, I've got, so now I, I text them every morning.
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Um, I just have to find other ways, uh, to, to maintain that relationship and continue
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be creative in how I establish those touches, uh, to live my value of thankful with them.
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How, how, Brooke, how intuitive are you versus analytical?
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Like intuitively, I think you're talking about more about intuition.
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Am I still, do I feel like I'm connected with my kids versus the analytical side, which
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is, you know, did I send, you know, 14 texts this week to my son?
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Did I, it's how much, how many hours did I spend?
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So where, where do we need to be analytical and where should we just look at this as more
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Um, I think I use the analytical, oh, sorry, Ryan, go ahead and take it.
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One of the goals I set for myself this year, which I, I think is like a lead measure is
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Cause I know when we go on walks, it seems standing, walking side by side with a person
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you love is for me at least has been, whether it's a child or, or a friend, or in this case,
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my spouse is, um, a great way for us to deepen our connection.
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And so deepening, deepening a connection is kind of vague.
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We understand what that means, but what is a practical way to put that into action?
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And so 180 walks means approximately every other day we're going to walk together, usually
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And I think that, that to me is a way to bring that one to life.
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And she, and I, I've publicly stated that now she's aware of that.
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Um, in fact, her boss, where she works has asked her, how many walks have you gone on with
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We're now through a couple of months, which is interesting that he saw that I publicly
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And so now she's even more intentional about making that goal come true for me because
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And what happens as a result is we deepen our connection.
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We converse, we have time, like five children, our life is chaotic.
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It becomes very logistical if we're not careful.
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And so you need time, you need connection, you have to do something, do things on purpose
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So that's what, like a one smaller example, but very important one for me of how to, uh,
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And then the result is something that's like the most important element of my life.
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So 180 walks with your wife, um, you know, that's the analytical side, right?
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But then what are you looking at as far as, look, I could go on a walk with somebody and,
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and, and argue and, you know, berate each other.
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And I'm using extreme examples, but I mean, I accomplished my goal, right?
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But was it actually productive towards my end result?
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So what, what are you doing to ensure that those walks are as productive towards the
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outcome of building a better relationship with Miranda, right?
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I mean, in this case, I think one of the greatest ways that, that we show each other love, both
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I think curiosity is a ultimate sign of respect and love.
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So we ask about how each other's feeling about things.
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We ask each other advice on business things, on life things, certainly on parenting things.
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Um, and, and so showing curiosity is something I'm very intentional about when we get on those
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Don't just dump on her with all of the stuff that I'm dealing with or, or whatever, but,
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but try to actually show, show that I care by asking questions.
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And, um, I've, I've had a number of people on my show, my podcast who, who said that they,
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they feel like curiosity and asking others about them is the ultimate, ultimate way to show
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And, and, and to a certain extent, I, I think that's true.
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And so that, that's something that I just try to be very intentional of if we are setting
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this goal and then we're out actually doing it, um, how are you showing up during those
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And that's one of the ways that we both try to do it for each other.
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Curiosity is one of my favorite things too, especially as it, as it relates to this podcast,
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And I think it does, you know, it's also a genuine compliment.
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You know, it's like, I actually care about what you have to say and I'm interested in
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your perspective or your opinion or your expertise.
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Curiosity is so powerful and it's often overlooked.
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Like this is one of the, we, we, we started around the same time.
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Remember, that's why it's been so neat to see, see all your growth and everything you've
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done, but like it actually helps form relationships with other people just because you're curious
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to ask questions about them and their genuine questions about what they're doing, how they're
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doing it, why they're doing it, their story and trying to learn about people.
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I feel like I never would have, could have ever guessed now after 570 of these episodes
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in nine years of just all of the relationships that are formed simply from showing care and
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Like I think one of the, one of, if not the best part about having a podcast.
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Well, and I think one of the nice things about it too, is you could ask somebody a simple
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That doesn't mean that you need to accept whatever it is they say.
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You don't need to embrace that as doctrine for yourself, but I am curious.
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I'm like, nah, I don't agree with that, but I'm curious as to what it is, you know, and
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You guys have some success in some areas that I would be interested in developing success
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in, and I might have some that you're interested in.
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This is the power of just dialogue and conversation and human connection.
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Again, we were talking about the difference between the analytical side of things versus
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No, I mean, I heard most of it and I, I'm with Ryan.
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I think we have, I have some analytical things that I do just because I have a system and that's
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I text him every morning and then I think you have to use your intuitive side to see
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if I need to do more or less of that based on how that relationship is going.
00:24:55.020
Do I need to, do I need to go up and see him do it?
00:24:57.260
Like we've driven over to Bloomington to, to see Gabe when we felt like it, you know,
00:25:02.640
And, um, I think, I think it's just a constant reflection on, uh, you know, seeing where that
00:25:10.200
You write a, uh, you said you write a letter, you write a physical letter to your, I think you
00:25:14.800
have two, so you write a physical letter to each of your two children on a weekly basis.
00:25:19.960
I write to my son, daughter, and my wife every Sunday.
00:25:26.320
What do you, if you don't mind sharing, you don't have to get personal, but like what types
00:25:29.440
of information do you include in a letter like that?
00:25:35.920
A lot of times I ask questions and I, um, you know, we talk, I'll talk about, you know,
00:25:41.340
things that we've done together, or if we had some shared experience over the past week,
00:25:46.760
Um, maybe things that we didn't get, uh, get to talk about when we were together.
00:25:50.860
Um, a lot of times the letters with my wife are talking about our kids and we're traveling
00:25:56.580
So, you know, sharing and just, you know, talking about some of those experiences that
00:26:02.040
So nothing, nothing big, really just more that they know I'm thinking about them.
00:26:07.200
Man, I'm just going to pause the conversation very, very briefly.
00:26:13.260
Guys, we're not meant to do life alone, but unfortunately too many men do.
00:26:17.780
And it's no wonder that we have a male loneliness problem in this country.
00:26:22.180
And even just hearing those words, male loneliness might make you cringe a bit.
00:26:26.340
It's hard to admit that being alone is even a problem for us as men, but it is, uh, it leads
00:26:32.380
to isolation, limited thinking, lack of creative problem solving, diminishing
00:26:38.920
And ultimately it even leads to anxiety and depression.
00:26:42.120
And unfortunately, maybe even suicidal thoughts and actions.
00:26:45.300
But the question is, where do you turn to find men who are willing and capable to stand
00:26:52.120
Well, the answer is our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council.
00:26:54.580
And the good news is that we are officially open for the next week or so, uh, right now
00:27:01.120
And when you band with us, you're going to tap into the power of 1000 plus men in your
00:27:05.260
corner, holding your feet to the fire and standing with you through this thing we call
00:27:11.480
If you want to learn more, I'm not going to do it all here in this, uh, little, little,
00:27:17.360
But if you do want to learn more, go watch a video over at order of man.com slash iron
00:27:23.040
There's a frequently asked questions segment on there.
00:27:26.040
And you can learn more about, uh, what, what we're doing, how we're doing it, why we're
00:27:29.920
doing it and how it might serve you in leveling up your life.
00:27:34.000
Again, that's order of man.com slash iron council.
00:27:38.320
So make sure you do that very quickly again, order of man.com slash iron council.
00:27:52.780
You guys lead, lead, well, very early on in the book, you talk about the concept of lying
00:27:58.820
And, and, you know, when I first saw that immediately it's, you know, we deceive ourselves, but,
00:28:03.860
and, and that's, that's something all of us do.
00:28:09.560
You know, you hear these things like, for example, one context might be like, Oh, if somebody
00:28:15.320
It's like, well, are you capable of kicking that guy's ass?
00:28:17.680
Cause you might not be, uh, but it's funny, you know, I hear in my boys too, if we're
00:28:22.220
talking about sports is, you know, Oh, those guys suck.
00:28:28.840
And I'm like, eh, maybe you, maybe you thought too highly of yourself and you should have been
00:28:32.860
a little bit more humble and trained a little harder, practice a little harder.
00:28:36.400
Maybe watch some more tape, really understood what they were trying to do.
00:28:40.080
Uh, but I think our ego gets in the way, but maybe that's something different than what
00:28:47.280
Uh, I think that you, you hit part of it, uh, exactly right.
00:28:53.020
Um, and we're also not great at being self-aware.
00:28:57.460
Uh, this is something most people think they're, they're very good at.
00:29:00.700
Most of us think we have high levels of self-awareness.
00:29:03.900
We state, state, state some of Tasha Yerick's research, um, in there as well about the fact
00:29:08.840
that almost everybody believes they have a very high level of self-awareness and almost
00:29:13.640
And so part of, of like understanding the score that matters and living through your internal
00:29:19.560
scoreboard is developing a higher level of self-awareness.
00:29:22.120
And one of the ways to do that, cause they're like the natural question is, well, how do
00:29:26.080
If we're not, if all of us think we're good at it, but none of us are is, uh, I think
00:29:30.540
that at least it's been practical and helpful for me is, is being very intentional about the
00:29:37.080
Um, and well, Brooke might call them, uh, his 3am friends or our foxhole, like those
00:29:43.100
people that are right there that you can go to that will tell you the truth that love
00:29:47.040
you and care about you and have both the ability and the willingness to tell you the truth.
00:29:52.180
And in a way you block out those who are not a part of that for the most part and only
00:29:57.260
stay tight with these people who want to help you so that you can say like, Hey, you
00:30:02.440
know, I just did this speech or this podcast, or I, I, I feel this way about a certain thing.
00:30:08.820
And, um, it, the, the stats are getting worse on this.
00:30:14.840
People are not as good at developing deep friendships.
00:30:17.800
Uh, Derek Thompson just posted a big article about this.
00:30:20.640
And I think it's, it's even more of a reason for us to be more intentional about who are you
00:30:27.680
Can you be actually really honest with one another?
00:30:30.480
Or do you care and love for one another to tell them the truth, even though it hurts.
00:30:34.520
And I think it's the ultimate act of being a selfless person to be willing to sell, to
00:30:40.980
tell somebody when they've messed up and maybe even some ideas on how to fix it versus being
00:30:45.500
selfish, which is not telling them because you don't want to potentially hurt them in the
00:30:55.620
That's why I try to surround myself with people who will do that for me.
00:30:58.980
And that's been, I think, transformative when you can get that right.
00:31:02.520
But it's, it's always a work in progress and something that, um, that, that I know both
00:31:08.720
I think Adam Grant calls them disagreeable givers.
00:31:11.500
And I think the message in the book is to be intentional about putting those people in
00:31:18.920
Um, you know, we have people come in and evaluate basketball practice just so I get a different
00:31:23.900
perspective and I can see things as clearly as I can.
00:31:27.720
I think if you aren't intentional about that, you just, you just start accepting things without
00:31:36.060
Um, we talk, we talk in our leadership class about, you know, the only difference between
00:31:40.140
a friend or an acquaintance and like a foxhole friend is like, if you have your fly down,
00:31:45.160
when you're talking in front of the class, you're like, they're not going to tell you and
00:31:49.280
just laugh at you, your foxhole friend, they'll laugh at you and tell you like, they'll actually
00:31:55.540
They're actually going to try to help you and do that for you.
00:32:00.820
Well, it's interesting when you have these kinds of people who, who, who won't tell you
00:32:04.320
your flies down and there's toilet paper on your shoe or you got something in your beard
00:32:07.580
or whatever and what they'll say or, or worse, right?
00:32:10.860
Like, Hey, you're being an asshole and you need to tighten things up or you're not being,
00:32:14.280
you're looking a little fat and maybe you ought to lose some weight.
00:32:17.920
Uh, what's interesting is the people who don't approach their friends will say, will say,
00:32:22.500
this is their excuse is why I don't want that person to feel bad.
00:32:28.560
I think it's, you don't want to have to deal with the discomfort of addressing whatever the
00:32:34.680
issue might be has nothing to do with your friend, nothing.
00:32:37.900
Cause if you knew they were going to respond positively, then you wouldn't have any issue
00:32:42.820
So it's the fact that you're going to be uncomfortable, not that you, you know, care about their own
00:32:52.200
This, this is a big, a big, uh, element of Brooke's basketball team and something I try
00:32:58.440
Because Ryan's dead on with this thing of how it's a, a selfish act to not tell a teammate
00:33:06.240
It, it just shows that you care more about yourself than you care about your friend or
00:33:10.800
It's a, it's under our unified, uh, core value and our unified behavior is speak and
00:33:17.800
So, I mean, if you see a teammate skip a rep in the weight room and you don't say anything,
00:33:22.700
you're just choosing your comfort over what you know is good for the team.
00:33:36.160
It's hard to overcome because I know there's a lot of people who don't like confrontation.
00:33:40.300
Um, you know, they, they, they don't want to feel uncomfortable.
00:33:43.480
They're, they're insecure with the way they approach it.
00:33:45.520
And, and also to be fair, most people don't handle constructive criticism in a, in a positive
00:33:53.180
So if one of you guys came to me and said, Hey Ryan, like I've noticed things are off.
00:33:58.460
Or, Hey, you're slacking off or looks like you put on a few pounds.
00:34:03.900
Uh, you know, most people are going to explode.
00:34:05.900
Most people are going to train you not to come talk to me the way that I need to be talked
00:34:15.460
In fact, that they say overtly, I want all the feedback, bring it to me, give it to me
00:34:21.700
I want to improve and I need you guys to help me out with that.
00:34:25.320
And then you actually do it in the, in the, at the first instant of that, they get defensive.
00:34:31.240
They start explaining why they did that thing that you're trying to help them with.
00:34:34.880
And what they're signaling to me is you say you want it, but you don't actually want it.
00:34:40.020
And so that's why I try to flip this when I say, okay, now you're in the leadership role,
00:34:44.740
And let's say you have informed your people that this is what you want.
00:34:52.740
You don't have to necessarily agree with it, but you have to be ready for it to come.
00:34:56.400
And when it does, the, the, the, the, probably the best thing you could say is thank you.
00:35:03.840
It doesn't mean you're actually going to change.
00:35:05.300
It should mean you should at least think about it, especially for the people you're asking,
00:35:09.160
but it's how you receive feedback is going to condition others, whether they can actually
00:35:16.380
So if you condition them to say, oh, Ryan told me he wanted feedback, his actions are saying
00:35:23.640
something else that is, yeah, it sounds good to say, I want feedback.
00:35:28.000
However, he just started blaming other things and complaining a little bit and then explaining
00:35:37.220
So what, what that tells me is he doesn't actually want it.
00:35:42.240
That's why those self-awareness stats are so low.
00:35:45.040
I think because we all have examples probably of bosses or other friends or people in our
00:35:50.140
lives who tell us that, but they don't actually mean it.
00:35:54.020
And so like, hopefully like the stuff that we're writing about and talking about could,
00:35:59.840
Because I do think you can grow and you can, you can get better at this.
00:36:02.820
I think I probably struggled with it early in my career and have gotten steadily better
00:36:08.860
I'm not really sure, but it's really about trying to be intentional of giving feedback
00:36:13.720
as well as how you receive feedback from others to condition them to say, yeah, I actually
00:36:19.460
I want to improve and you can help me and I want your help.
00:36:24.180
I mean, a good indicator for me in my life with that, because I've caught myself at times
00:36:28.920
saying, you know, like, why don't my, why don't my people talk with me?
00:36:32.240
Like, why don't my kids talk with me about what they're dealing with?
00:36:34.960
Or why don't the people in our organization explain to me the problem?
00:36:38.500
And it might be just their lack of ability to communicate effectively.
00:36:43.900
But I think more often than not, it's like, well, you're an asshole when they talk to you.
00:36:49.860
And if you can be to your point, right, and be self-aware about that and say, you know,
00:36:54.300
maybe I'm not as gracious with that feedback or, or maybe I'm not as empathetic or kind
00:36:58.700
or, uh, nurturing with that information as I could be, especially with my kids.
00:37:03.300
Like I want them to be able to communicate with me when things are going wrong, you know,
00:37:07.620
like, ah, man, the amount of peer pressure, whether it's drug, drug use or, uh, you know,
00:37:14.000
pornography or anything like I want them to be able to talk with me about that so we can
00:37:19.120
But I can't do that if I'm just going to be a dick every time they come to me and, you
00:37:23.080
know, bear their soul or explain to me what they might be dealing with.
00:37:26.100
So the reason, the reason that we, we struggle with the conflict is because we don't have
00:37:31.680
the foundation of trust to start with, whether if it's an individual basis, we don't trust
00:37:38.140
Maybe you're trying to manipulate and maybe you're just trying to be right, but I don't
00:37:44.820
I don't trust that your priorities, the team I trust, I think you're about you.
00:37:48.480
And so it's really hard for me to take feedback if that level of trust isn't already established.
00:37:54.540
Well, so on that point then, because nothing happens in a vacuum and everything, every
00:38:00.200
opportunity and every goal and everything else that we have in life is always not contingent
00:38:07.740
What is the best way that you guys would suggest that we begin to build trust, whether it's
00:38:11.500
in a personal relationship, professional environment, on a team?
00:38:15.800
How do we begin to build trust with other people?
00:38:20.400
I mean, I think there's only three ways to do it, or the three most effective ways are
00:38:26.260
laughing together, crying together, and suffering together.
00:38:30.260
And so figuring out ways to engineer laughter together, which is usually pretty easy.
00:38:43.600
But doing hard things together is a very bonding trust bill, because you know guys aren't cashing
00:38:49.900
And then crying together, we see the vulnerability piece of things and what hurts us and is then
00:38:56.480
So I think those three things, just trying to think about whether it's my family, I want
00:39:02.640
to laugh together, cry together, suffer together, whether it's my team, figure out ways to laugh
00:39:08.400
You think about the people that you're the closest with, that you trust the most, you've
00:39:14.700
That's why we see it so much in teams, sports specifically, why we see it in the military.
00:39:20.940
But what ends up happening with a man is he gets out of the military, he wraps up his sports
00:39:25.800
in high school or college, or maybe the select few who go on to professional sports.
00:39:33.080
They lose the sports, they lose the military service, and then they go into a cubicle,
00:39:37.220
and they're alone, they're isolated, and they're not doing any of that.
00:39:40.640
They're doing it themselves, to themselves, with themselves, but they're not doing that
00:39:45.200
And so you have this epidemic of male loneliness, which leads to a lot of depression,
00:39:53.400
Yeah, I think in addition to the laughing, crying, and suffering as a team, on an individual
00:39:58.460
basis, I do think it's important for us to be intentional about being both trustworthy
00:40:06.420
And I understand that not everybody is like this, but one of the big things with trust
00:40:11.460
for me that I learned, I remember having multiple conversations with Jim Collins about this,
00:40:16.240
is that him and his mentor, Bill Lazier, said it's called making the trust wager.
00:40:20.000
You can either make people earn your trust, or you can give it freely without making somebody
00:40:27.960
And that sounds crazy initially to a lot of people, and I understand why it would, but
00:40:32.300
I actually think it's a much better way to live.
00:40:40.500
For that, I am okay with getting burned every once in a while.
00:40:45.940
Because by living as a both trustworthy and trust willing person, I feel like it creates
00:40:52.100
better odds that trustworthy and trust willing people will be attracted to me and will be
00:40:59.500
in my orbit more often than if I'm cynical or I make people go to certain extremes to earn
00:41:08.020
And yes, I think it's worth it to get burned or taken advantage of every once in a while
00:41:13.860
to be both trustworthy and trust willing so that people don't have to earn it.
00:41:18.760
And to me, it seems like it just opened doors for really cool opportunities as well as relationships.
00:41:26.800
And it seems to work as a magnetic effect to the type of people that I want to be around.
00:41:32.820
Certainly, when I'm in the space of hiring people or trying to get people to work on my
00:41:37.720
team, if they know that that's part of who you are, it makes it a more attractive place
00:41:47.440
But I think that's something I try to be intentional about as well.
00:41:51.340
Yeah, I think the only exception to what you're saying might be if I'm going in for brain surgery
00:41:57.980
or if I'm going to literal war with another individual.
00:42:01.940
I've got to know because that's a life and death situation.
00:42:04.500
But outside of that, man, if I lose a couple grand because I decided to trust somebody and
00:42:14.340
But in the long term, me being trust willing, I like that term, will yield far more than
00:42:21.000
the $2,000 or whatever I may have lost in that one interaction or exchange.
00:42:29.060
But this is why the military does what they do.
00:42:34.500
And they do a lot of hard things together in order to build that trust as a group, as
00:42:39.200
a team, and especially you take it up another notch, Navy SEALs, the Rangers, all of that
00:42:44.580
stuff, again, which I know you know all about more than I do.
00:42:48.380
They are intentional about all of the work that goes into building a SEAL long before they
00:42:55.780
would ever put him or her, I guess, side by side with another one shoulder to shoulder
00:43:02.380
So I think there are elements of that in teams as well as individuals.
00:43:09.680
I think the military seems to be at least really good about intentionally building trust by
00:43:16.280
having people do a lot of hard stuff together long before it's a life and death situation.
00:43:21.760
And that's why I'm very proud and glad that I live here because we have people who are out
00:43:27.020
there like you who are serving, keeping us all safe and doing a lot of hard stuff leading
00:43:37.580
And this goes to something you guys were talking about earlier, bringing the right people in,
00:43:43.380
Man, if you don't cut it, if you don't hack it, you're out.
00:43:50.040
And if you don't hack it, you're not going to be standing next to me.
00:43:53.540
I think that's part of the reason why, you know, for example, I love jujitsu.
00:44:03.820
Like I know that when things are hard and challenging, like they're still going.
00:44:08.240
They show up with bruises and, you know, sprains and strains and tears and broken limbs.
00:44:17.840
So I know at a minimum, I know that's somebody who's tough and can continue on a course of action
00:44:25.400
despite the hardship they may be currently dealing with.
00:44:28.180
And I think, again, we talked about this earlier.
00:44:31.760
If a guy can do that in jujitsu, then I'm more confident he can do that in his business
00:44:40.560
We have, we work out at, did you lose me again?
00:44:47.760
We work out at 6 a.m. every morning before school.
00:44:50.680
And sometimes we'll get kids that'll go to trainers now.
00:44:54.380
Like they have their own basketball trainer or their own speed and agility trainer.
00:45:03.140
But it has to be in addition to what we're doing because that suffering together, I need
00:45:09.680
It's less the workout than it is me seeing you at 6 a.m.
00:45:18.100
And so it takes a little bit for guys to understand that.
00:45:24.020
Like, hey, that guy's showing, he doesn't want to be here.
00:45:26.220
We know he wasn't trying to did something else.
00:45:32.480
One of the other chapters you guys talk about, and I'm really interested in this one, is talking
00:45:38.880
Naturally, I think when somebody hears that, we think role, you know, and there's some
00:45:43.900
maybe even negative connotation with that in modern culture, like traditional roles and
00:45:49.240
What are you guys talking about when you say we're all role players?
00:45:53.040
I think of, people think of roles, like you said, almost as a negative term.
00:45:57.580
And like, it's showing you less than what you're really capable, not letting me be free, do
00:46:02.980
what I can, like you're putting constraints on me.
00:46:09.100
When we can operate within our strengths in the way that we would contribute to a team
00:46:14.400
the most, that's when you're at your very best.
00:46:18.460
And so we think of roles as being empowering rather than limiting.
00:46:22.240
I'm empowering you to contribute to the group and to the team the most you possibly can by
00:46:34.100
Like the leading scorer on a basketball team has a role.
00:46:36.960
That seems like a great role until you can't make a shot.
00:46:39.340
Not such a fun role when you've got to go try to score, right?
00:46:44.560
Some of them get more glamour and more recognition than others.
00:46:47.740
But understanding that everybody is a piece of that and we all kind of go at it together
00:46:52.780
more like a pack of wolves than a, you know, than a lone lion or tiger.
00:46:59.800
Yeah, I think where, you know, you run into issues and you alluded to it, Brooke, is when
00:47:03.980
you have certain roles that don't get the notoriety, praise, accolades that the majority of us desire.
00:47:10.300
You know, if you're looking at it from the context of sports, the offensive line is not going
00:47:15.560
to get the accolades that the running back or the star receiver, the quarterback will receive.
00:47:19.340
And, you know, that can be real challenging if you're in one of those crucial roles, but
00:47:26.920
Well, I mean, I think, I mean, I think that I got to play the most glamorized role there
00:47:31.580
is in sports as a quarterback, at least in the sport of football.
00:47:34.740
And I think it's so important for both the coaching staff and the players to really highlight
00:47:43.660
the excellence, especially of the people who don't get any of that pub, most notably your
00:47:50.880
And so I remember my dad was very helpful with this of how that we loved and took care of
00:47:57.140
those guys, how we recognize them publicly, how when, if they asked to do a story about
00:48:01.240
me, it's those guys are going to be with me or they're going to be in the pictures too.
00:48:05.300
We're going to have them over for dinner once a week.
00:48:07.120
We're going to make sweatshirts that say O-line domination with their name and number on it.
00:48:11.340
Like we're going to really go all out to shine a bright light on the people who don't get
00:48:16.980
In fact, they really only get noticed if they commit a penalty, like a holding call, or they
00:48:23.680
So I think like they don't really get any of the upside, only the downside.
00:48:27.460
So for those roles, whether it's in business or it's in sports, it's on us as the leaders,
00:48:33.780
I think to go the extra mile to make sure that you're shining a bright light on them
00:48:39.600
and them doing their role to the best of their ability.
00:48:42.140
I know Brooke has something called moments of greatness where they highlight that type
00:48:47.200
of stuff, guys setting screens, playing defense, living up to the core values of the team.
00:48:52.020
Maybe he can expand on these moments of greatness because I believe moments of greatness, moments
00:48:56.200
of excellence, you can call it whatever you want, highlighting people living up to your
00:49:00.920
This absolutely translates into life off of the basketball court or off the football field.
00:49:08.480
I mean, moments of greatness are really just opportunities after games for players to highlight
00:49:15.600
And what tends to happen is your best players end up highlighting the players that don't get
00:49:21.660
to play or we're on the scout team or we're handing them water or we're reminding them
00:49:27.880
of things at timeouts, which is very powerful for your team when your players that are viewed
00:49:34.920
as your best players are recognizing the contributions of your players that don't get the same glamour
00:49:42.120
So it's a pretty empowering and pretty cool exercise.
00:49:53.240
Like, let's say you're leading a team in a business and a lot of these teams have Monday
00:50:03.820
And one of the ways I think you could work, this is a great way to open your Monday meeting
00:50:06.900
if you have a team or you're leading them, is moments of greatness of people on your team
00:50:11.500
recognizing others living up to the values that your team has set.
00:50:15.940
Speaking of specific examples, Jameson mentored our new person and I overheard him explaining
00:50:22.520
to her how to make this call or how to respond to this objection, whatever it may be.
00:50:30.820
You could create a new, I guess, segment of your meetings that are moments of greatness
00:50:36.060
in the business world where teammates are noticing great things about other teammates.
00:50:41.000
Think about that as a kickoff to your week as opposed to the standard Monday meetings that...
00:50:46.840
Well, I don't know if Brooke's been in those, but I know I've been in a lot of them where
00:50:52.080
But what if it started that way for the first 20 minutes?
00:50:54.560
Like, you'd probably be the best manager in the company or at least people would say,
00:50:59.540
So like thinking of different ways to recognize excellence in others and the core values that
00:51:04.080
you set for your team, not necessarily like, oh, look, here's the biggest sales of the
00:51:11.400
We want to talk about the actual behaviors in alignment with our values that we want to
00:51:16.440
And if you do that, then I'm guessing the results will most likely follow.
00:51:22.460
You know, one thing I've heard in the past that has really struck with me is that you deflect
00:51:31.080
So like, for example, your example of playing quarterback, when you get praised by the local
00:51:36.700
paper or news station, it's, hey, you know what?
00:51:44.560
These receivers ran the routes they were supposed to.
00:51:51.380
And then when the reporter comes to you and says, hey, man, you guys had a horrible game.
00:51:56.420
You know, you don't say, yeah, our offensive line sucked today.
00:51:59.360
You say, yeah, you know, I wasn't making reads.
00:52:08.000
And man, that, if anything, that is a true sign of a leader and somebody that other people
00:52:17.920
One of the examples was, hey, if there's a fumbled snap, I don't care if the center rolled
00:52:23.140
the ball on the ground and never went near your hands.
00:52:30.560
And now, when it goes well, certainly, we're going to give love.
00:52:35.260
If you guys score 50 points, my guess is your linemen played pretty well, right?
00:52:41.700
So, it's not like it's lying, but it's just shifting the love to the place where it belongs,
00:52:48.480
Probably the most important part of, in this case, a football team.
00:52:50.960
So, it's regularly looking for opportunities to give credit where it's probably due, but
00:52:57.640
And then, certainly, if it goes wrong, it's the leader's responsibility.
00:53:01.740
It's on us to get it right if we're not getting the result that we want.
00:53:06.160
I mean, it isn't that the people that we love anyways, whether it's in the movies, we see
00:53:10.780
the humble servant, the humble leader, and those are the people that we aspire to be
00:53:15.540
And it's difficult because our own ego gets in the way, but then it gets to real life
00:53:20.240
and you forget who you would actually follow and whether or not you're being that kind
00:53:26.000
One of my questions is around the subject of roles, and I know we're getting close against
00:53:33.140
But what if somebody finds themselves in a role they're not thrilled about?
00:53:38.320
You know, I hear from a lot of guys who are in current professionals, current work.
00:53:43.940
Maybe they don't like what they do, and they're always looking for something else.
00:53:52.720
What recommendation would you give to a person like that?
00:53:57.740
My first instinct would be to have them talk to whoever the leader is and help them
00:54:08.340
Because I think a lot of times people lose their passion for their role because they don't
00:54:19.420
And then if you don't think you can operate well within your role, go find a role that you
00:54:26.440
I kind of wanted to hear all of Brooke's answer there.
00:54:33.180
I think it's more about helping them understand the value of their role and how they contribute
00:54:41.080
to the greater good of the entire team and the success of the team.
00:54:44.580
I think people lose their zest and their desire to fulfill their role when they don't see
00:54:53.060
it contributing to the good of the whole group.
00:54:58.660
And then if that's not something that appeals to them, then I think you've got to go do
00:55:04.940
Your life's not long enough to be miserable in your role or your job.
00:55:15.200
I think we're very aligned with understanding strengths, how that strength and what you
00:55:21.840
bring to the table ultimately helps the overall group.
00:55:24.980
My dad was really big on this when I became a new manager.
00:55:27.060
He's like, you've got to make sure each member of your team has a vividly clear mission for
00:55:33.460
how they are going to help us achieve this big thing we're going for.
00:55:38.680
And so that's why the one-on-ones are so important.
00:55:41.540
The open lines of communication are really important.
00:55:44.100
That there's feedback going both ways with your people.
00:55:47.220
That you're showing you actually really care about them.
00:55:52.460
And I remember one of my first ever issues with somebody who I thought was an over-sharer
00:56:01.740
And I thought, like, why is she telling me all these things about her personal life and all
00:56:06.560
I was shocked because I would never tell my boss that stuff.
00:56:09.160
I'm like, I'm going to come in and hammer the phones and do the work and try to help
00:56:17.800
And it's your job as the leader to understand that.
00:56:24.300
As the leader, you've got to do the hard work to understand each of those people and
00:56:29.740
And it's part of your responsibility is like, oh, God, this is a lot harder than I thought.
00:56:33.960
So, I mean, I think that's also, by the way, a good reason why it's so easy to, like, yell.
00:56:40.360
Brooke has a game tonight and there'll be a lot of fans probably yelling at him or the
00:56:45.520
It's because those people in the cheap seats, they don't know what it's like in that seat.
00:56:50.740
So, it's so easy to yell at them about how stupid they are when it's just like, you have
00:56:57.640
So, I know that's a little bit of an off your – it's off your question, Ryan.
00:57:01.380
But to me, like, that's just important to first understand, though.
00:57:06.620
Try to understand what it's like in that person's seat before you're highly critical
00:57:18.160
Will you guys let the men who listen know where to connect with you so they can learn
00:57:24.160
And, obviously, the book is The Score That Matters, and that's out today as of the release
00:57:30.640
The Score That Matters, the title of the book, you know, anywhere books are sold.
00:57:35.420
If you like to – if you're already an audio listener and you prefer that, you can get
00:57:40.580
And then my stuff's all for my podcast is on learningleader.com.
00:57:45.260
I do a weekly blog on bluecollargrit.com, and that's about it.
00:57:52.680
I'm not a whole lot on social media, but hopefully you enjoy the book.
00:58:02.740
Man, there you go, my conversation with Ryan Hawk and Brooke Cupps.
00:58:09.920
Again, these are very, very qualified individuals to have these conversations about leadership,
00:58:15.260
We bring those people who are qualified to talk about these things in unique and interesting
00:58:18.640
ways, practical ways, and then ultimately give us some information that we can apply.
00:58:23.220
So I would highly suggest that you pick up a copy of their book, which I have read, The
00:58:26.920
Score That Matters, Growing Excellence in Yourself and Those You Lead.
00:58:31.620
Take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on Instagram, post it on Twitter, post it on
00:58:35.700
Facebook, wherever you're doing your social media stuff, and tag me as well.
00:58:40.540
If I see that you guys post something and share it, then I'm also going to share it on
00:58:48.640
In the meantime, please make sure you go check out The Iron Council.
00:58:51.740
We've got a thousand plus brothers inside The Iron Council, all working to serve each
00:58:55.220
other and lift each other up, edify, promote, and to hold each other's feet to the fire.
00:58:59.140
If you're looking for good men in your corner that are going to help you improve your life,
00:59:08.600
All right, gentlemen, we'll be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.
00:59:12.200
Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.
00:59:17.320
Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.
00:59:19.960
If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,
00:59:24.360
we invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.