Order of Man - Hope Vs. Despair, Motivation Vs. Discipline, and Caring Vs. Carrying

00:00:00.000 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart

00:00:04.920 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:10.260 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who

00:00:16.940 you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:00:22.420 you can call yourself a man. Kemp, what's up, man? Great to see you today. We didn't get enough

00:00:27.800 with each other over the weekend, so we thought we'd go ahead and record on this fine Monday

00:00:31.920 morning. Apparently not. I was like, maybe he'll cancel because he's too tired to sit down and talk

00:00:38.940 and be in a cush office chair. Yeah, too tired does not exist in my vocabulary. I've never been

00:00:47.020 too tired to have a conversation with you, Kemp. Anytime I can spend time with you, we can converse,

00:00:52.920 we can, whatever. I'm all about it. You know, I was thinking about the weekend,

00:00:59.160 obviously good time, and I was driving home. Is that obvious?

00:01:04.000 Well, you know, I was just thinking about, you know, what made it a good time though?

00:01:09.200 And to be frank, like my favorite, my favorite thing about the weekend is just sitting around camp,

00:01:14.800 having conversations around life with, with you and Tanner and the other guys, and just like,

00:01:21.440 I don't know, sharing ideas. It's the best part, really.

00:01:25.800 It really is. Yeah. I mean, the running sucks. You got to sprinkle some running in there. For

00:01:31.420 those of you who don't know, Kip and I, and Matt Jenkins, and Logan, and Colby, I'm going to forget

00:01:37.680 some of the Anthony, Tanner. Dude, I forget. Did I forget everybody?

00:01:40.820 That's everybody. That is everybody.

00:01:42.840 We went and ran the Ragnar relay race this past weekend. You haven't done one of those. I highly

00:01:48.620 recommend it. As you guys know, I'm not a huge fan of running at all, but we got it done. And like

00:01:54.680 you said, the camaraderie, the brotherhood, being able to connect. I did a, I did a Friday field

00:01:58.880 notes last week on why men are so lonely and we are like men are just lonely. And this is part of

00:02:07.300 the way to beat that loneliness. Even if, even if a man has kids and he's married, he's still lonely.

00:02:13.280 Isn't that wild? What that means to me is that you, you cannot rest on your wife or your kids

00:02:22.340 to fill that, that void. It's an important component. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying

00:02:27.900 neglect them at all. It's just, it cannot be filled through your wife and your children. And what I've

00:02:35.580 noticed is that when guys get married and I fell into this trap as well. And even now, as I go

00:02:40.220 through and I'm in the, on the backside of my divorce, it's, it's interesting because all of

00:02:45.460 my, like, I don't, I don't have the same friends that I had before because I forsake them for my

00:02:52.000 marriage. Right. Like they let, they went away. Like I sacrificed them in order to, and there's

00:02:59.180 some virtue in that. I think, you know, there, there is some, some redeeming qualities in that you're

00:03:04.080 supposed to cling to your wife and no other. You're supposed to serve your family and be the father,

00:03:07.880 but man, it comes at the expense of your own wellbeing, which is just not sustainable.

00:03:13.040 So you got to find good brothers to do life with. Totally. Well, and it's like, who are those

00:03:18.700 people for you? You know, when you're down and out, you're in the dumps, who's the person that

00:03:24.120 you're going to go to, to let it out and talk through struggles and that, that you don't have

00:03:31.600 fear of judgment or that they're going to give you sound advice to, I mean, it's so many people

00:03:36.640 don't have that. And, and to add to what you're saying, Ryan, I feel also like the quote unquote

00:03:41.960 friends that we do have probably weren't really selected through a good process anyway.

00:03:47.780 I mean, some of our friends, well, I played high school with that guy. Oh, so he's your,

00:03:51.080 he's your person that you can go to. Oh no, man, that guy's screwed up. And you know what I mean?

00:03:55.800 He's in a really bad place or I don't like his advice at all. Why is he a friend? Well,

00:03:59.960 it just kind of worked out that way. And so there is some intentionality of like,

00:04:03.680 keep those friends alive, but be intentional about who we surround in our lives and who those

00:04:09.800 friends are as well. And I, and I think men, we have a, we do a poor job in that friend selection

00:04:15.100 job at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. You know, we, we think about vetting women or we think

00:04:21.380 about vetting business partners or new employees, but we don't really think about the vetting process

00:04:26.920 for our band of brothers. And that's crucial. You said two things that really stood out to me,

00:04:31.640 Kip. You said, where do you go when things are bad? That's part of the problem is that we're only

00:04:38.560 thinking about where do we go when things are bad? And what I would suggest to you. Yeah. By then it's

00:04:42.840 too late. Yeah. There is nobody. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. I got, I've got an email from a guy this

00:04:47.500 morning, actually from last night. And he's like, basically what the thing said is he's like, Hey,

00:04:52.680 I haven't been the quote. I remember he's quotes. I've not been the quote unquote man that I can be.

00:04:58.620 I'm about to lose my family. I'm about to lose everything. I'm not going to lie. I've, I've been

00:05:04.020 suicidal. And I just wrote a message this morning and said, how are you doing this morning?

00:05:08.580 That like, how are you doing? That's it. Cause he sent this message last night, his email.

00:05:13.300 And I couldn't help but think that this is a guy who in desperation, like we've all been is now he's

00:05:19.900 reaching out to people and that's good. I commend him for doing that, but man, we got to be vigilant

00:05:24.980 about this stuff. You got to do this when the getting's good, because when the getting's bad,

00:05:29.920 you got to make sure that you have people to turn to. And in the midst of my personal situation,

00:05:34.960 like I've got plenty of guys to turn to. You are one of those people, you know, and we've built up a

00:05:40.220 relationship and a friendship as things are good. And so that when things are bad, man, it's like

00:05:47.080 seamless, you know, and you can do what you need to do. Plus, you know, me really well. So,

00:05:51.840 you know, if you need to push your arm around me and say, Hey bro, it's okay. Or like, come on,

00:05:56.160 man, get your shit together. Right. And that leads me to another point that you had said,

00:06:00.960 and you said, we're worried about fear of judgment. I contend with that a little bit. I

00:06:06.160 actually want somebody in my corner who's a little judgmental. And I don't mean like me as a human

00:06:12.560 being, I don't mean unnecessary judgment. I mean that somebody can call out my BS when it needs to

00:06:19.940 be called out. Like, Hey bro, you're not doing what you need to be doing. You're not doing what

00:06:24.620 you're capable of doing. You're so much more than what you are right now. And I will help you do that.

00:06:31.180 But I actually do want somebody who's going to be a little judgmental. And I think this is a

00:06:35.040 Christian misstep that we're not supposed to judge. And look, I'm not a biblical scholar,

00:06:42.420 so I can't tell you the verses, but this is what Christians will say is like, Oh, we shouldn't

00:06:46.280 judge. I'm like, actually we should, at least we should be discerning. You know, we should discern

00:06:52.800 right from wrong. We should discern good behavior versus poor behavior. We should be discerning when

00:06:58.340 it comes to our friends. Like if we see our friends stumbling, and this is something I wish people

00:07:01.980 would have told me a year ago, like, Hey man, like you're not, you're not the same guy that you

00:07:08.180 used to be. Like you seem angry or bitter, or maybe they smell the alcohol in my breath and they're

00:07:12.380 like, what's going on? Like, I want that discernment. I want that judgment because I want somebody to be

00:07:18.060 like, bro, you're better than this. And I wish I would have had that. And people have done that

00:07:22.940 over the past six months. And some of it publicly and other guys are like, Oh, well, I can't believe,

00:07:28.020 you know, this person did that thing publicly. And it's like, you know, some of it's appropriate,

00:07:33.200 some of it's not, but also like at least somebody is willing to say something. Like how many people

00:07:37.560 knew something was going on and didn't say a dang thing and just let me like continue my poor

00:07:43.700 behaviors. That's not what I want. I mean, it might be what I want today, but it's not what I need for

00:07:49.360 the long haul. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I totally agree. And it's like, it's almost like maybe if I said

00:07:56.020 that differently, it's have that person to go to knowing that, that there's not, that they're

00:08:01.940 going to be there for you, even with judgment, that there's not this exit strategy. You know,

00:08:07.080 if I go to Ryan, I tell him that I, I'm in need that you're not going to like, quote unquote,

00:08:11.880 abandon our relationship. Does it make sense? And that you'll take a stand for me judgment or not,

00:08:17.540 you know? So I, I think that's kind of, cause I think that's what most people are afraid of. I think

00:08:21.980 when they share struggles is, are they going to lose those people? And I think there's a sense of

00:08:28.620 point. Yeah. You know, you know, I think the best way to get over that is to serve them in their time

00:08:34.260 of need. Right. Because, okay, let's, let's just hypothetically play this out. You've been a good

00:08:40.760 friend. You've been a good, great advocate for the business, but you've been a good friend and you've

00:08:45.380 stood by me through some very challenging and difficult times in my life. If you go through something

00:08:50.220 challenging in your own life, whether that's loss of a loved one, I know your father passed away

00:08:54.260 fairly recently or financial struggles, marital struggles, like that stuff's going to happen

00:09:00.420 in life. Right. Yep. Like, am I going to leave? Like, am I going to leave you? Am I going to forsake

00:09:06.160 you? No, of course I'm not because you've been there for me. So the relationships that we have with,

00:09:12.560 with other men have to be reciprocal and the best way to, and I hesitate to say this way,

00:09:19.080 say it this way, because I don't want it to come across as like gaming the system.

00:09:23.280 Totally. But the best way to make sure men are in your corner when you need them and trust me,

00:09:28.240 you will need them. I don't know what it looks like, but you will need them is to be in their

00:09:33.020 corner when they need you. Yep. Yep. I like it, man. All right, brother. Let's hit some questions

00:09:39.480 today. Yeah. We're going to field questions from the iron council to learn more about the IC,

00:09:44.280 go to order of man.com slash iron council, Ethan, right? I'm curious about the idea of hope.

00:09:51.180 It's one thing to have motivation, discipline, but what about having a source of hope? Is it

00:09:57.180 important to understand what hope is and where your hope comes from? What's your source of hope?

00:10:02.540 I actually really liked this. Yeah. I mean, my, my source of hope is in, is in God and Christ. I

00:10:10.080 mean, that that's where it comes from is I had a really interesting conversation with Matthew Vincent

00:10:14.660 last week, and he was talking about this higher power. I can't remember the terminology he used to

00:10:20.260 use to maybe he used the universe or something like this. I can't remember. And I, and he said,

00:10:26.280 you know, the universe is neither conspiring for you or against you. And I said, well,

00:10:31.080 you're saying the universe as it, as in it's some sentient human or sentient being, like, is it,

00:10:37.220 is it, is it sentient? Like, is it all, is the universe like all knowing? Is it powerful?

00:10:41.940 And he kind of agreed with that. And I thought, okay, well, let's just for me, maybe. Yeah.

00:10:46.720 Yeah. And it could just be semantics, but I don't think it's semantics. I think we need to use the

00:10:50.580 appropriate terminology in that case, but let's just for the sake of argument, assume that the

00:10:55.900 universe, or I've heard people say mother earth or karma, or, you know, these things, let's just

00:11:03.740 assume that it is sentient. How, how would a sentient being that designed this, that has some

00:11:11.260 sort of hand in what's going on in our day-to-day operations, neither be for us nor against us.

00:11:17.380 It just, it doesn't make sense. If there's some sort of cosmic designer, I don't care what you

00:11:24.120 call it right now, just for the sake of argument, then it has to be for you because it designed you

00:11:29.360 because it designed you to what end to thrive or, or maybe even from a non-spiritual perspective

00:11:37.300 to contribute to the ecosystem. Like you are a contributor. You are a participant in this thing.

00:11:44.720 Yeah. So my hope comes in that, that even in the most dire, tragic, worst, horrible case scenarios,

00:11:54.680 there's some infinite, all-knowing, omnipresent being that is conspiring for my good. Now I can

00:12:03.280 sabotage it and I certainly have, and yet he can use that for good. That is the foundation of my hope.

00:12:11.480 So now there's more temporal components of my hope. That is that I'm still alive and I've been

00:12:20.960 through some crazy stuff. And so if I made it through that, I can certainly make it through this,

00:12:25.420 but there's a big component that a lot of men miss and that's having a vision.

00:12:29.700 Yeah. You know, when we were running the Ragnar race this weekend, do you remember on the eight mile

00:12:35.060 course? I can't remember the exact six miles for Kip, eight miles. He only ran six. He stopped at six

00:12:43.120 because he thought it was only six miles.

00:12:44.960 I'm like, according to me, it's six. So I'm done.

00:12:49.240 You just stopped at six. He called in. He's like, van, come pick me up. This was supposed to be six

00:12:55.240 miles. I'm not going to finish this thing. Come get me. Yeah. But when you come around, I think you

00:13:01.340 kind of come around the left side of the mountain or something and you see the campsite.

00:13:06.560 Yeah. Yep. And you see the parking lot and you see the campsite and the buildings.

00:13:10.580 What happens? Hope. Hope. That's hope. That's hope. That's vision. You see something out in the

00:13:17.460 future and you're like, oh gosh, there it is. Okay. And you, what do you do? You pick up the pace.

00:13:22.740 You run a little faster. You run a little harder. You take fewer breaks because you see it.

00:13:27.680 But this is vision and guys don't have vision or at least the men who don't, those are the ones who

00:13:34.320 are upset about hope. Those are the ones questioning hope because they don't have a vision for their

00:13:38.240 future. Or if they do, it's so muddied and watered down that they can't really even visualize it or

00:13:45.600 see it. But what if you could see yourself as an incredible husband? What if you could see yourself

00:13:50.580 as an extremely successful business owner? What if you could see yourself in the mirror and not see

00:13:55.200 the 50 pounds around the midsection, but you could see 10% body fat? Like if you could actually see

00:14:01.420 that, would you be asking about hope? No, you would not be asking about hope. You would be asking more

00:14:07.860 about tactics and strategies and how could I get there, but you wouldn't be asking about hope.

00:14:13.120 Totally.

00:14:13.680 So I think that's again, more on a temporal level. What is your vision? What do you want? What do you

00:14:19.360 see yourself? How much time do you spend? Even if you just sit down this week, we're recording this

00:14:23.400 Monday morning. Have you spent any time thinking about what this week looks like? I've got my notes.

00:14:28.020 I'm like, I'm ready to go. I did this all last night, sat down. What am I going to do? When am

00:14:31.740 I going to do it? Who am I going to talk with? What conversations are we going to have? What are my

00:14:34.880 workouts like? Everything is lined out. And that gives me my marching orders, so to speak. And I don't

00:14:42.180 have to question about, oh man, what if I don't know? It's not, that's not even a question.

00:14:46.220 It's all there. Now I just have to manifest it, realize it, put it into practice.

00:14:51.400 I like that. Yesterday, someone shared a quote from Michael J. Fox. It was an interview. I don't

00:15:00.440 know the details. I haven't, I haven't watched this, but they asked him, how does he maintain

00:15:05.700 such positive, like a positive mindset? And he says, being optimistic is made possible by being

00:15:15.940 grateful or is, is sustainable by being grateful. And, and I think that's kind of what we're talking

00:15:23.260 about here. Hope becomes more available to us, the more grateful we are for what we do have.

00:15:31.220 And, and I, and I kind of like to inject that thought of hope into it because the more that

00:15:36.120 we're present to what's available to us, that helps us more, more gratitude helps us to have better

00:15:43.200 hope for the future. And, and those things are on our radar a little bit more. I don't know.

00:15:47.720 Just, it's just some thought there. That's really good. I think, again, I'm just, I hope I don't

00:15:53.080 like beat a dead horse, you know, when I say this, but it's important for me to share because I think

00:15:56.880 it'll serve people. You know, I think about with what's going on in my relationship, my failed

00:16:00.700 marriage. Like it's hard, no doubt, but there's a lot to be hopeful for. I'm 42 years old.

00:16:10.000 I'm decent looking. I'm not like, you know, ugly, but I'm not, you know, like the most handsome guy

00:16:15.640 on the planet. I'm fairly successful in my business. I know how to talk with people. I've

00:16:20.220 got a good support system. I've got my health. I've got this home. My kids and I have a great

00:16:24.720 relationship. And even my ex-wife have a good relationship, all things considered. Like I'm grateful

00:16:30.220 for all of that. It could be way worse. And I talk with men on a daily basis who it is way worse

00:16:35.480 for. And you know, the more that I'm grateful for her, for example, or for my kids or for my

00:16:43.760 financial success. It's like, like I'm grateful. I can't, I can't hold being bitter and contentious

00:16:49.460 and upset and gratitude in the same moment, you know? So I agree with that. What's next?

00:16:55.780 All right. Charles Kimball or Chase Kimball. I'm sorry. What would be your steps in entering

00:17:03.140 a stepfather role to an eight-year-old girl? She has lost her own father to an accident a couple

00:17:08.480 of years ago, and she has been through a lot with her mother. Losing my own father at a younger age

00:17:13.680 has helped me not be, uh, not, has helped me not overstep boundaries with her, but her mother seems

00:17:21.300 impatient and wants more from me, especially when it comes to discipline. I feel this is a very broad

00:17:26.620 question, but without writing a book on specifics, I would like to know your, uh, how you would plan

00:17:32.480 to go about this situation. Thank you, men. That's interesting. I don't, I don't know that we hear

00:17:38.220 that question a lot where the wife is, is like, I want you to be more disciplined with her. Like I,

00:17:44.340 we don't hear that a lot. It's usually the other where it's awkward. It's uncomfortable. You don't

00:17:49.660 know your role to be a disciplinary figure. Um, so, you know, kudos to your wife for sure. Cause

00:17:56.280 she recognizes that her daughter, eight-year-old daughter needs a disciplined, structured man in

00:18:02.260 her life. And that sounds like a keeper to me. I mean, cause that's, that doesn't seem like it'd

00:18:07.320 be real common in that scenario. So I want to throw that out there. Yeah. And it sounds like Chase is a

00:18:12.840 little bit acting not, and this is not a negative comment is acting out a little bit based upon his

00:18:18.160 experience as a young individual losing his father and probably someone else overstepping their

00:18:25.480 bounds. And so he's became overly cautious in regards to how he shows up as a father.

00:18:30.860 Yeah. And I think I understand that, you know, I'm not in that situation, but I understand that's a

00:18:34.960 sensitive situation. It's not your biological child. I, I didn't think it is your daughter. Now you

00:18:40.820 like you signed a package deal, you know, and said, that's my daughter now. Yeah. I'm just really

00:18:46.500 impressed with your wife. Honestly, like this, this is what I'm taken back by more. Here's what I would

00:18:50.900 suggest to you is when she says, or, or at least alludes to, um, you being more disciplined with her

00:18:57.160 daughter, your daughter, I would spend some time really asking her what that looks like.

00:19:04.440 Totally. Like what hon, look, I love you. I love our daughter. Seems to me, if she's not coming out

00:19:11.540 and telling you, it seems to me like you would like me to be more of that structured disciplinary figure

00:19:16.380 with, with our daughter. Can you help me understand how you see that in your mind? Like, how do you

00:19:21.920 see that? Like, what specifically does that look like? Or what specific areas do you think I can step

00:19:26.840 in? Man, that's just a really assertive manly way to approach a situation is to get more

00:19:32.980 clarification, get it locked in. And she might come out and say, Hey, this is what I need. I need you to

00:19:38.340 support me when I discipline her. Or if you see something she's doing out of line, I need you to

00:19:42.900 have a conversation in a loving, caring, but also masculine way. She might give you some really good

00:19:48.720 pointers. And I think that's the first place that you go. Uh, the next place that I would go is

00:19:54.460 empathy with your daughter. And so instead of being this disciplinary figure, because I don't know when

00:20:00.580 her father passed away, if she was young, if she ever knew him, she had a good, I don't know that

00:20:05.340 part of the story, but six, don't couple of years. Oh, couple. Okay. He said that. And she's eight

00:20:11.800 now. Yeah. So she had a little bit of relationship and she remembers the relationship with her father.

00:20:17.800 So what I would do is I would approach that with a level of empathy and asking more questions of her,

00:20:24.640 you know, Hey, how do you, how are you feeling? Like, how are you and I, how do you feel about the

00:20:29.400 relationship that you and I have? Like, you know, sometimes I get upset when you behave a certain

00:20:34.600 way. Um, how does that make you feel like, is that, do you get scared? Do you, you know, is it,

00:20:40.680 is it hard for you? Like just ask questions and get your daughter to open up. The more that she opens

00:20:46.400 up to you, the more she's going to know how much you love her, how much you care for. And even when

00:20:51.260 you don't discipline her correctly and you won't write, we always drop the ball. At least hopefully she

00:20:57.580 knows that, Oh, he cares about me. He does care. He may have not done that right, but he does care.

00:21:04.360 So I would say, talk with your wife, listen to your daughter. That's where I'd go. You,

00:21:09.660 you probably have a little bit more experience in this than I do. So I'm sure you have some

00:21:14.380 pointers and tips. Yeah. I mean, so here's the first thought and I don't even know how I'm going

00:21:19.240 to articulate this, but I remember I was talking, Asia and I were talking with our marriage counselor

00:21:25.580 and he, and he asked at one point, he says, uh, Kip, do you want to take on responsibility for

00:21:31.340 Kyave? And it was really interesting because I thought, do I have a choice?

00:21:36.560 Right. Like I already have, I thought.

00:21:38.660 Yeah. But it was interesting because I'm like, that's true. Like he actually isn't my responsibility.

00:21:45.740 That's a choice that I've taken on and that's okay, but it's still a choice.

00:21:51.220 And it's really a choice beforehand. Wasn't it? It was a choice beforehand for sure. But, but,

00:21:56.420 but I liked the idea that like, that you stay present to the idea that you're, you're choosing

00:22:01.840 to take on something that's not your responsibility. And it's really important. And I'm this a little

00:22:06.600 bit of a side rail, but it's really important that Chase's wife remembers that, that this is a

00:22:11.340 choice that he's taken. And there's some empathy and appreciation that kind of comes with that

00:22:15.440 concept. So anyhow, with that said, Chase, I'd recommend the following book, The Anatomy of Peace.

00:22:21.600 It's one of my favorite books of all time around, in my opinion, around parenting. And at eight years

00:22:28.420 old, she's probably a sweetheart and disciplining is very minimal when she becomes a teen.

00:22:34.440 You don't know my, my eight year olds, but you've never had an eight year old,

00:22:39.020 but the probability of that eight year old stepdaughter being brutally tough to discipline

00:22:45.560 in about eight more years is going to probably increase. Right. And you're going to be like,

00:22:52.460 oh man, I wish she was eight again. That was a hell of a lot easier before that time of difficulty

00:22:59.860 comes, get present that you need a strong relationship with her. You need to put in the time you need to,

00:23:08.280 because you want to be in a position of influence and you're not going to be if you are focused on

00:23:14.040 correcting and disciplining. That has to be the last step. All the steps leading up to that is

00:23:20.300 you're, you have to be clear in your mind that you don't see her as an object or a problem that you

00:23:27.140 see her. I like to say it this way. You see has God sees her whole and complete and perfect.

00:23:33.940 And, and does she make mistakes? I'm not saying they don't make mistakes, but you see

00:23:38.340 her potential. So you see her from a, from a heart at peace. And then you actively put yourself

00:23:47.040 in a position to learn about her, to continually learn new things and how she's evolving. And she

00:23:54.100 knows that you love and you care for her then. And only then are you in a position to really be of

00:24:01.780 influence. Otherwise all that you're, all your quote unquote discipline is going to come off as

00:24:07.660 he's just trying to change me. Right. And I'm not good. Yeah. And I'm not good enough the way I am.

00:24:13.620 So you double down on that relationship as much as humanly possible. Yeah. Solid, solid stuff.

00:24:20.100 All right. Glenn Venstra. How do you balance being disciplined on your battle plan when you're on a

00:24:28.720 trip for the holidays? For example, if I'm on a backpack hunt that I've been using my battle plan

00:24:34.140 to train for, obviously my condition quadrant is going to get out, get the box checked every day

00:24:39.020 that week, but my contribution tactic just might not be possible in the mountains. Do I worry about it

00:24:45.140 or do I just let go and enjoy what I've been training to do? I think the answer is neither.

00:24:52.420 You don't not worry about it and you don't overly concern yourself with it. We, we talked about this

00:25:00.200 in, uh, I think it was last week about the hardness of steel and being brittle. If it's brittle and your

00:25:07.000 plan is brittle, it breaks. If it's too soft, you don't get anything done. So a year ago, I would

00:25:12.860 have said, you just F and do it today. I would say you knew the hunt was coming up. This isn't a

00:25:21.860 surprise. It didn't just happen. Like you have a hunt now. So you knew the hunt was coming up. So

00:25:26.640 what buffers did you create in your battle plan to ensure that your contribution tactic can continue

00:25:31.240 maybe in a different way, but could continue in spite of you being out on your hunt. That's what

00:25:35.820 you need to think about. And that's where the, where it shouldn't be so brittle. So, okay, go do

00:25:42.660 your hunt. You should do your hunt. That's awesome. That's good for you. That's a calibration quadrant

00:25:47.340 issue, by the way, because you're taking care of yourself. It also could be a contribution quadrant

00:25:52.680 issue because you're going to provide for your family. So when you have these things that are coming

00:25:58.860 up, you just plan for them. And yeah, you may not check the box, but what is your secondary tactic?

00:26:05.840 So if your contribution, I'm just throwing stuff out here since he didn't share. If your contribution

00:26:11.160 tactic is to show your wife that you love her in some way every single day, let's say hypothetically,

00:26:19.420 you might get her flowers. You might leave a note. You might make the bed or do the dishes without her

00:26:25.080 hounding you about it. You might give her a massage, which obviously leads to way better

00:26:29.740 things. Like there's all sorts of things that you could do to show her you love her. Well,

00:26:34.280 you can still do that on a hunt. Might not leave her a note, but you might just send her a text midday

00:26:38.540 and say, Hey, hon, getting limited service. The first chance I got, I saw I had a couple of bars and

00:26:44.780 you were the person I wanted to send a text to. And that's awesome. So there's still ways that you can do

00:26:51.140 it, but they need to be secondary and tertiary tactics that allow you to continue the momentum,

00:26:56.400 maybe in a different way without breaking the streak that you're on.

00:27:00.660 Yeah. The example I've always used is like, would you be better off if you still did them or not?

00:27:06.720 You know, like you're saying if we're executing on the tactics within our battle plan, you know,

00:27:12.520 it's like, let's say I have a physical, a tactic of running right in the morning. And they're like,

00:27:18.740 I'm on holiday. My question would be, if you go running in the morning, is your day better

00:27:25.000 while on holiday? And the answer is yes. So then do it. You know what I mean? Like far too often,

00:27:31.040 just be careful that you're not making an excuse. And that's one way to see if you're making an

00:27:35.180 excuse or not is like, could I do it? And then second, am I better off if I did? And if the answer

00:27:40.340 is then be better off. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. The one thing that we hear a lot here, here's one that we

00:27:45.620 hear a lot is, Oh, it's hard. You know, I'm on vacation. It's hard to exercise. No, it isn't.

00:27:51.200 It's really not. You may not go into, yeah, because you have less obligations. You may not

00:27:57.660 have, you know, go into your same gym and do your same workout, but come on, you can't get a run in

00:28:01.860 or you can't find a gym locally. I'll tell you what, the first time I did that really like dedicated,

00:28:07.180 disciplined was in Costa Rica several months ago. And I went to the gym every single day,

00:28:13.500 every single day. I loved it. Not only did I get my exercise and workout in before most of

00:28:19.760 the people we were with got up, but I met cool people. I got to see a different part of the

00:28:25.180 culture that I wouldn't have seen if I didn't do that. Cause I was going to local gyms.

00:28:29.140 The other one that we hear a lot is, Oh, it's hard to eat right on when you're on vacation,

00:28:34.280 either on vacation or traveling. No, it isn't. You could go to McDonald's and you could get a chicken

00:28:39.360 Caesar salad today. Like the worst place that you could go for your nutrition. You could go get a

00:28:45.660 chicken Caesar salad at McDonald's. Okay. So don't tell me it's hard to do that. Just tell me you

00:28:52.180 don't want to do that. Cause at least then you're telling the truth. Yeah. Tell me that you're not

00:28:57.740 committed enough to your plan. Like that's the truth. And I'm not here to point fingers. I've been

00:29:03.360 there too, where I'm like, Oh, it's so hard. I guess I better just go to in and out. Okay. That's a

00:29:08.660 decision to eat like shit. It's not a decision that you should make if you're wanting to stick

00:29:15.520 to your goals, but it's not harder. Might be a little bit more inconvenient. Might need a little

00:29:22.240 more planning, but McDonald's has salads. So don't tell me you can't do that when you're on vacation,

00:29:29.140 just make a decision and do it. Yeah. Unless of course you're me. And like the minute there's a

00:29:35.100 associated road trip. I'm like, Oh yeah, we need Twizzlers. I need a big hunk. Yeah.

00:29:41.680 I'm like, I'm like a 12 year old when I'm driving a car. Those are choices. You know, like I'm look,

00:29:48.540 I I'm with you. I do the same thing. I saw a funny meme the other day and it was like, if you don't,

00:29:53.960 if you don't go on a road trip and go to the grocery store and spend $110, like you're a seventh

00:30:00.180 grader, you know, who just stumbled on the lottery. Like you're not a human. I'm with you,

00:30:06.020 but let's not pretend it isn't what it is. It is what it is. And you're making choices

00:30:10.560 to eat like crap. We did that this weekend. Like Anthony chewing on his Twix, but what did we say?

00:30:18.240 Oh, oh, well, you know, we're running 16 miles so we can eat like this.

00:30:22.340 Yeah. You can eat whatever you want.

00:30:23.740 We want like, I don't need permission to eat better or eat worse from you or anybody else.

00:30:30.020 That's a choice. And that was the choice I made. I loved every minute of it. Yes. But at least

00:30:36.120 we're being honest, right? I mean, that's the key. Just be honest, like call it for what it is. Don't

00:30:41.460 BS ourselves. Say, oh, it's hard. There's not a healthy place. There's no gym. Those are lies.

00:30:48.420 Those are deceptive lies. Speaking of lies, I heard a new term for sugar-coated lies. You want to,

00:30:53.740 you want to tell me what you had told me? Power rings. Power rings, baby. We had a neighbor that

00:31:00.420 she was hilarious and she said, she called them power rings. Yeah. I'm like, I just ran and I'm

00:31:06.800 going to eat this donut because I want to. And she goes, that's why we call them power rings. I'm like,

00:31:11.960 I love that. I was like, yes. Lies, more lies, more lies, power rings. Oh man. All right. Rob

00:31:20.700 Andrews. How can one understand the difference between motivation and discipline? So many of us

00:31:28.120 use the words interchangeably, but I've always felt that they've had different means. What does that

00:31:33.160 look like for you in your day-to-day motivation versus discipline? Do people use those interchangeably?

00:31:39.660 I don't think so, but I don't know, but maybe Rob wants some clarity of your distinction between the

00:31:48.520 two. Yeah. I don't think I've heard people use them interchangeably. I think most people have

00:31:52.900 some sort of general, especially the people listening to this podcast have some sort of

00:31:56.640 general disdain for motivation because I hear guys like Jock who are like, oh, motivate. No,

00:32:01.160 you're disciplined. Yeah. I think you need both. I think motivation is more emotional based

00:32:08.940 is the distinction I would make than discipline. Discipline is more logic, logically based. Like

00:32:16.160 once you make the emotional decision, then you support it with logic and logic is I'm going to

00:32:21.040 do this thing for this long in this way. For these results. Yeah. For these results. Yeah. It's very

00:32:26.400 systematic. And motivation is like, oh man, I went to this seminar this weekend and I heard

00:32:31.020 this guy and he told this crazy story about how I overcame these hardships and man, I'm so inspired

00:32:36.160 to go start my business now. That's awesome. I don't, I don't, I don't understand the disdain

00:32:42.020 for, for inspiration or motivation. I don't think it's sustainable because like any emotion,

00:32:49.260 it comes and it goes. Yeah. I mean, like last night I was, you know, having a hard night last night

00:32:56.320 with regards to my relationship this morning, I woke up and I'm like, man, I feel good. I went to the

00:33:00.660 gym. I feel good. That's an emotion. It's like an eight hour difference. So I spent, you know,

00:33:05.760 an hour wallowing in my own self pity, feeling sorry for myself, went to bed, woke up, feel

00:33:10.240 better. So it's like, it's fleeting, but that's not to say we shouldn't use it. We should, we

00:33:16.820 should put ourselves in environments and around people who will motivate and inspire us. And

00:33:20.460 then we have to back it up with discipline. So here's how I look at it. The analogy I would

00:33:24.600 use, I don't know much about fuel propulsion, but if we're looking at motivation, I would say

00:33:33.440 that's fuel that burns really hot and, but it burns really quick. So supercharged burns really

00:33:41.580 hot, hit the gas, but it just burns really quick. Discipline is a slow burning fuel. So you're not

00:33:50.300 going to get all hyped up and hopped up. You're not going to wake up this morning. Yeah. I'm so

00:33:53.940 excited to be disciplined. You're going to wake up and you're like, damn it. It's six o'clock

00:33:58.700 already. Now I got to go to the gym. I don't want to go. It's warm in bed here, but you know what? I

00:34:06.620 said I would. So fuck it. Here we go. Which was my conversation this morning. Yeah. So it's not

00:34:15.660 exciting. It's like, I made a commitment to do it. So I'm going to do it. So it's, it's, it's,

00:34:21.940 it's not as hot burning, but it's longer burning. And I think we need both. Yeah. Totally agree.

00:34:30.580 Step on Sarita, Ryan, I've wasted my twenties. Those were golden years of lost opportunities.

00:34:38.700 Now I'm trying to, now I'm trying to get back on track, but re but regrets of lost time are kicking

00:34:44.560 me every day. How do I deal with these regrets? So I'm going to be a little sarcastic here.

00:34:50.080 Here's what I would suggest that you do. Keep doing all the same dumb shit that you did in your twenties

00:34:54.920 and keep wasting your time thinking about what could have, should have been. And then let's talk

00:35:01.000 in 10 years and see how you feel like that's it. Well, come on now. You don't waste anything. And even

00:35:07.580 if you did and well, now, yeah, it's not wasted if you learned from it. Right. And also, even if you

00:35:16.280 did, let's say you just did some crazy stuff. Let's say you went to prison for 10 years and you felt like

00:35:20.720 it was a waste and you could have been so much further. So what now, what are you going to do

00:35:25.000 today? What happened the last decade is irrelevant to what you're going to do today. So yeah, I have

00:35:34.400 regrets. You know, I have regrets with my relationship. I have regrets with the way that

00:35:39.040 I did that with the way that, you know, I've been a father. I have regrets about business situations,

00:35:43.440 all sorts of regrets. How much time do you think I spent dwelling on those things? Like zero,

00:35:49.100 except for last night when I was wallowing in my own self-pity for an hour. And then I got up and I'm

00:35:54.280 like, Hey, I got shit to do today. So get over it. Like really? And I'm not trying to be flippant

00:36:01.180 about what you're dealing with or dismiss what you're talking about. I get it. I understand what

00:36:04.940 you're saying, but you've got to get over it and say, Hey, you know what? I messed up. I screwed

00:36:08.760 that up. I should have done this. I should have done that. Okay. Well, what am I going to do today?

00:36:13.260 That's going to be better than what I did yesterday. And then just focus on that. We talked about hope

00:36:17.120 earlier. You're in despair because you're looking in the rear view mirror, no vision in that.

00:36:21.760 Oh man, I should, this woman and this business opportunity and this money and this, that I

00:36:27.280 should, I should have, would have, would have. That's despair. Have some hope. What am I going

00:36:33.020 to do? What, what's the next 10 years is going to look like? Who am I going to connect with? Who am

00:36:37.240 I going to talk with? Who am I going to have conversations with? What businesses am I going

00:36:40.640 to start? What's my relationship going to look like? How am I going to raise my kids? That's hopeful.

00:36:45.700 Move to that, man. Move to that.

00:36:47.720 Yeah. Yeah. When we're constantly focused on what should have been, we, we stopped dealing

00:36:53.360 in reality because, because we feel like I shouldn't have to be dealing. I should be somewhere

00:36:58.160 that I'm not today. And so what do I do? I don't take any action. Oh, I shouldn't have

00:37:04.540 to be doing this today, Ryan. I shouldn't have to be dealing with these things today. If I

00:37:07.860 would have, if I would have, well, guess what? That's not reality. Reality is this is where

00:37:12.940 I'm at now execute. It's really interesting how, when we wallow in our past and our judgments

00:37:19.840 of the way it should or should not have been, it almost stops us from taking action. And I

00:37:25.480 don't know why, but it does because we feel it's unfair that we should be where we are

00:37:30.900 and it shouldn't be this way. And it's almost like if it, if we shouldn't be this way, then

00:37:35.580 it's exterior to us for some odd reason. I have no idea. I don't understand it, but I know

00:37:40.680 that's what's true for me. Whenever I think about it, I stopped dealing in reality.

00:37:45.940 Well, I, you know, as I think about what you're saying, I think that you actually should be where

00:37:50.180 you are today because you have exactly what you deserve. Yeah. There's this thing that human

00:37:55.280 beings think we deserve something. You deserve nothing, nothing. Like there's nothing I deserve

00:38:02.120 and some things I can't even earn. And no one owes you anything too. That's in that same

00:38:08.180 realm of thinking. Yeah, exactly. And so now look, there's micro events that happen,

00:38:14.520 uh, that like, for example, if you're, um, if you're in a, in a city and you get carjacked,

00:38:22.260 like you probably, you didn't deserve that. Okay. I'm not saying you deserve that. Like

00:38:26.320 things happen that are beyond your control. And those are micro events and they could be tragic,

00:38:31.780 you know, but they're micro events. Like some, like a guy who lost his wife to cancer,

00:38:36.640 but you didn't deserve to lose your wife. Okay. I'm not saying that that's tragic. It's horrible,

00:38:41.220 but it's an instance. And if you look at the macro, you have what you deserve.

00:38:47.920 Yeah. Your financial situation, your relational status or situation,

00:38:53.020 like those, your health again, not, not on the micro. Cause you might, I get, I might get diagnosed

00:38:59.700 with cancer today. Nothing I could have done about it. That's not what I'm talking about. So I want to

00:39:04.300 make that distinction, but in the macro, like you, you are where you are today because of the things

00:39:09.500 that you've done. And I'm where I am for better and worse. I am where I am for the things that I've

00:39:15.640 done. People will say, Oh man, you know, you've recovered so well from, from this divorce. Like,

00:39:20.100 how did you do that? It's because for the last eight years, in spite of the things that broke down

00:39:24.920 within our relationship, I've been doing some other pretty good work for eight years. And I would

00:39:29.860 not be in this situation. If that weren't the case, we're just a result of our choices over

00:39:35.100 the macro. Yeah. I want to kind of give him a little bit of, you know, maybe just thought and

00:39:40.840 motivation. We, we have a choice and we use this term last week, I think to be called up, right?

00:39:48.660 Use your past to call yourself up. Like if you hate the fact that you wasted your twenties,

00:39:54.680 then get behind it, get behind it in a way that you become a man so powerful that you're

00:40:01.440 like, you can't help, but look back at your twenties and go, I'm grateful. I waste my time

00:40:05.480 because it inspired me to change and be the man I am today. That's, that's how you get over

00:40:11.560 regret. You want to get over regret of a divorce or past mistakes, then make those mistakes be

00:40:17.960 a catapult into you forming into the man that you can become. And then you can't help, but

00:40:24.380 go, I know it's weird, but I'm grateful for those things. Why? Because who I am today,

00:40:30.380 I am so happy with who I am today because I, those called me up to become better.

00:40:37.700 Yep. Well said. All right. Eric Dudley, self-respect. Do you believe it is internal

00:40:44.100 or a learned trait? Self-respect. Yeah. It's, it's, it's learned. I mean,

00:40:50.320 are you a man worth respecting? I'm not asking you, Eric, cause I know who you are. I'm just saying

00:40:55.700 generally, broadly, that's a good question. Am I a man worth respecting? A lot of guys will ask this

00:41:00.040 about confidence. Are you a man who has earned confidence? Are you a man who deserves, since

00:41:04.360 we used that word last time with yourself, Ryan is what you're saying. Yeah. And the way that it,

00:41:09.240 the way that we do that, here's when I feel the best. When what I say either vocalized or in my head

00:41:16.560 aligns with the action. Yeah. And I'm talking about little stuff, little things like I'm going to wake

00:41:24.820 up without hitting the snooze. Yeah. I'm going to take the trash out today. Little moments. Those are

00:41:31.100 the ones that are most important. The big ones are easy. You know, if you, if you make a commitment to

00:41:35.880 go pick up your kid from football practice, like there's some pretty big consequences for not

00:41:40.200 showing up. That's easy. That's easy. Okay. But I'm talking little teeny commitments that you make

00:41:49.780 either again, vocalized or, or just internalized. That's when I feel the best. And that's a man who

00:41:57.620 does that is a man who can have some self-respect, but where I've struggled in my life, mentally,

00:42:04.480 emotionally is when there's a chasm between what I say I'm going to do, what I actually do. We call

00:42:11.880 that the integrity gap. Yeah. And that's not a man worth respecting. And you know, it, you know,

00:42:18.320 it, we know it, you know, it, and that's why you'll see guys hunched over deflated down on their luck,

00:42:26.640 you know, beat up, driving minivans. Like you just see them. Like you can look, you can see a guy

00:42:32.440 he's driving a minivan. You look over and he's like, Oh, that guy's deflated. Like he doesn't

00:42:35.680 keep commitments to himself. He's driving a minivan. I'm picking on minivans, but that like,

00:42:43.220 you can see it in a man's demeanor, a man who has no respect for himself. You can see it internally.

00:42:49.980 There's something there. You can see it physically by the way that he carries himself, by the way that

00:42:54.040 he looks, by the way he presents himself to the world and the, in the circumstances in,

00:42:57.720 you can see it. And I, and I, I try not to be judgmental. I was way more judgmental a year ago

00:43:03.100 than I am. I I'm more empathetic than I have been in the past. Um, and so I'm not judging that,

00:43:08.260 but I do recognize that guy right there doesn't keep commitments to himself. That's why he's feeling

00:43:14.720 the way that he's feeling. So self-respect is, I wouldn't say it's a learned trait.

00:43:21.540 So I think it's the result. Yes. It's earned. It's the result of keeping commitments to yourself.

00:43:27.380 Yeah. Also, I would say there's another thing, sorry, one other thing I want to say on this.

00:43:33.820 There's also an external factor to this, and that is boundaries, boundaries, really healthy

00:43:39.160 boundaries and your ability to stick to them. So if I tell you Kip, Hey man, like we're doing this

00:43:45.720 podcast at, we're going to record at nine, but you consistently show up late. Then that's not a

00:43:51.840 boundary I kept. And I'm not a person worthy of respect, self-respect or yours, by the way,

00:43:57.760 because you're not respecting me. Yep. But if I say, Hey, we're going to do this at nine and you

00:44:02.320 habitually show up at nine 15, nine 20. And I say something to you like, Hey man, like I know things

00:44:09.180 come up. If we need to change the time, like if we need to do it nine 30 or 10, I'm good with that.

00:44:13.420 But if you're saying nine's okay, I really need you to be here at nine so that we can get this done

00:44:17.760 because my time is important too. Guess what happens? Immediate boost of confidence for myself

00:44:23.360 because I respected myself enough to hold that boundary. And guess what happens to your level

00:44:29.220 of respect for me? It also goes up. We think it won't. We're scared to have that conversation.

00:44:34.380 Oh, I don't know. It might feel bad. He might. No, it's not like that. Especially among men.

00:44:39.340 Men are like, you know what, Ryan, you're right. I do need to be here at nine. And you look at that

00:44:46.100 person in way better light than you did before when you, when you communicate and uphold your

00:44:50.400 boundaries. And what's interesting is in that example, you probably had internal dialogue of,

00:44:57.780 I need to say something to Kip about late all the time. And that's, and that's, what's fascinating

00:45:03.400 is like, I was thinking about why you're talking. It's like all, what are all these little things

00:45:07.760 that we hear throughout the day that bothered me? I need to say something. I should communicate

00:45:13.480 that my time is important. I need to call that individual that I have a rift with and I need

00:45:19.660 to get whole and complete in that relationship with them or resolve that issue. Oh, I need to

00:45:24.300 pick up that trash. I just walked by. I need to get out of bed and go to the, like, there are

00:45:30.080 thousands of opportunities probably throughout our day for us to go, are you going to respect yourself?

00:45:37.740 Are you going to make excuses and be out of integrity? The opportunities for us, our souls

00:45:45.140 call it karma. If you want, call it the Holy spirit, whatever you want to call it.

00:45:50.060 It's talking to us on a regular basis all day long, waiting to see if we're going to make the

00:45:55.780 right decision or not. Yeah. The other thing it's not going to do, it's not going to slap you across

00:46:00.060 the face, at least initially. No, you can hide. It's just, it's just really quiet. It's just like

00:46:04.700 you walk over that piece of trash. You're like, that's not my responsibility. Like, eh, you know,

00:46:08.800 I probably should pick that up, but it's like super quiet. Yeah. But the more you do it, the

00:46:13.340 more you listen and apply it, the louder it gets. And you want it to be loud because it's a compass.

00:46:19.840 Yeah. It's a compass for the right behavior. So many guys are like, oh, what should I do?

00:46:23.540 Your compass isn't loud enough because you haven't been listening to it. If you listen to it on the

00:46:28.540 small things, it'll really apply to the big things. There's one other thing I would go ahead.

00:46:32.580 Let me ask you this question. Would you say that when you don't listen, it, that gets quieter too?

00:46:37.680 Yes, of course. It's like a muscle. It atrophies. You know, if you don't go to the gym for two or

00:46:43.080 three weeks, you're going to note it, like visibly notice your arms and back and chest and legs are

00:46:47.360 going to be smaller. Like you're visibly going to, it's atrophy. You're not using it. So why,

00:46:52.540 why use it? It's like wasted effort. There was something I was going to say about expectations.

00:46:57.340 One thing that I'm learning, I've had a hard time with this admittedly is I really want to be

00:47:03.440 somebody who has expectations, communicated expectations and boundaries, and then be able

00:47:07.760 to verbalize those and uphold those boundaries. And I'm pretty good at that. What I'm not real good

00:47:14.080 at is honoring and upholding other people's boundaries. When they communicate them to you.

00:47:19.560 Or if I, yes, when they communicate them or maybe they're even loose and I'm really good at being

00:47:26.400 so selfish that I will railroad through those boundaries because I have things to do or because

00:47:32.140 you're justifying it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I've thought a lot recently about that is that if I'm a

00:47:38.400 person who wants to respect my own boundaries and I want people to respect my boundaries, then I've

00:47:44.100 got to be a person who respects other people's boundaries. And that's a really hard thing for me to

00:47:49.380 do. The hardest thing is letting go and allowing people to have their autonomy and the authority

00:47:59.280 over their own life. Cause I'm somebody who wants to help and to serve and to see what's best for

00:48:04.960 people. And you know what that looks like. So why not just, you know, get them there. Yeah. If I could

00:48:10.280 just force you to do this thing, everything would be fine. And I'm really trying to let go of that

00:48:15.820 lately. It's hard. It's really hard for me, but that is something I'm working on. And I have noticed

00:48:21.300 that respecting other people's boundaries has helped me to maintain mine. Yeah. That's interesting.

00:48:29.720 I like that. All right. Brett Hubber. He has a question, kind of fun question in regards to our

00:48:35.180 weekend. He said, I had lost. I had a last minute opportunity to run a certain race last weekend with a

00:48:41.980 bunch of killers from the IC. I had a conflict with sports tournament for my daughter. I considered

00:48:47.740 for a couple of hours and ultimately passed on the opportunity as supporting my daughter was the

00:48:52.000 priority. Of course, her team, of course, her team played terribly and they were out early of the

00:48:58.240 tournament enough that I could have, I could have made the race even through my decision was intentional

00:49:04.220 and I was aware of the consequences. I still struggled with keeping my thoughts off of

00:49:09.520 what could have been experiencing over the course of the weekend. What is your advice for when we

00:49:14.780 decide between two important good events in life? First of all, you made the right decision.

00:49:20.620 Yeah. Given second, second, it doesn't matter if she won or lost or went all the way to the

00:49:25.420 tournament or it was at the end or the went out in the first game or got injured in the first inning.

00:49:29.720 What, wait, what kind of game was it? I don't know, actually. Oh, okay. Does it doesn't matter

00:49:34.300 that that's relevant? Like we, we have your realm of control. Yeah. Well, we have this tendency of

00:49:40.220 focusing so heavily on the results. Like don't worry about the results, worry about the actions,

00:49:45.060 worry about the behavior, the results take care of themselves. So here's what I would suggest.

00:49:49.200 You're focused on what you missed out on fear of missing out, right? Oh man, I could have,

00:49:52.980 should have, would have. Yep. What did you get from that experience? Start thinking about that.

00:49:58.640 What, what did you get by being there? Even though your daughter went out in the first round,

00:50:03.260 what did you get from that? Well, she knows you love her. She knew you had the race that you could

00:50:09.460 have done and that you chose to go to her thing. Maybe you had a beautiful weekend with your wife,

00:50:15.580 you know, maybe instead of sitting around watching softball or soccer, what a basketball,

00:50:19.280 whatever it was, you guys actually went out and explored the town together and you had a wonderful

00:50:23.860 whole day with the family or a weekend with the family. Like what did you gain by making that

00:50:28.800 choice? Yeah. You could have spent some time with us. You could have raced. You could. Yeah,

00:50:32.340 sure. Of course there's a cost. We have to make those decisions, but you're not thinking about

00:50:38.280 what you traded. You're just thinking about what you lost. You're not thinking about what you got

00:50:43.180 and it wasn't exchange. You just got to figure out what it is. Yeah. Like it. All right. We're

00:50:48.180 going to jump over to Facebook, uh, to join us there, facebook.com slash group slash order of man.

00:50:53.860 Uh, well, Luna, my wife feels disconnected and it had, and has expressed that she doesn't feel like

00:51:01.340 herself lately. I've tried to listen, offer suggestions and overall be supportive, uh,

00:51:07.280 be a support system. My energy is depleting and I don't know how else to help any suggestions

00:51:12.940 disconnected. And it expressed that she doesn't feel like herself lately.

00:51:18.180 Well, I, I, I have to wonder what's changed. Yeah. She just, have you guys just had a baby? Um,

00:51:25.600 has she put on, on weight maybe, uh, has there been a traumatic event in her life? You know,

00:51:31.340 like a loss of a loved one, or maybe even just an argument with her parents or something like,

00:51:36.060 what is there an event that triggered this? Sometimes it's not an event. Sometimes it's just

00:51:39.800 life. I will say that there's one thing I would tell you to focus on for you. Your energy is waning.

00:51:45.000 You said you, this is my, this was my, this is part of my, I get a lot of problems. This is one of

00:51:51.080 them. This is one of them. I want to be Superman. I want to save everybody, but in wanting to be

00:52:01.840 Superman, sometimes I became the villain because instead of being the hero, I became a dictator.

00:52:08.380 And that's exhausting. It's exhausting to the people around you. It's exhausting to yourself.

00:52:15.120 Like I, I, I, I truly had the motive of wanting to serve people so much so that I thought I knew

00:52:23.380 it was best for them and tried to force that peg, that square peg into the round hole as, as the saying

00:52:28.920 goes, right. Yeah. If I would have just backed up a little bit and really worked on taking care of

00:52:35.740 myself and making sure that I was in the best possible position to do that, I think that would

00:52:41.320 have saved me a lot of time and headache. And I think it would have given people some space to be

00:52:46.720 able to process their own emotions and work through their own things. Um, one thing I would be cautious

00:52:53.880 of is assuming that whatever she's dealing with is her problem and it's just her. This might be a

00:53:00.920 really good moment for some self-reflection. How are you showing up as a husband? I've seen that.

00:53:05.920 I saw that in my own relationship where, uh, you know, I would say, I would, I would act as if

00:53:12.420 something was wrong with her without a willingness to examine my own behavior and performance. And I

00:53:18.840 wish I would have done that. So I think generally women are a little bit more indirect in their

00:53:24.260 communication, but there's some veins that you can explore there. Maybe she's not satisfied with the

00:53:29.160 relationship for some reason, maybe it has less to do with what she's dealing with and more to do

00:53:34.540 with how you're showing up. Yeah. That's something worth considering. What do you think?

00:53:38.880 The only thing that comes to mind is what's on her mind a lot. What is she thinking about a lot?

00:53:43.700 That's, those are kind of cues of, of what, what is the current struggle, but most importantly,

00:53:48.460 and you kind of alluded to it, right? Like people need to figure things out, right? We can't control

00:53:54.820 them, make them happy, you know, and she might need some reps. And I think where most of us will

00:54:00.940 fail is we start taking this shit personal where she's going through a grind and all of a sudden

00:54:07.560 you're pissed off because she's suffering and now you're overreacting and you're not being supportive

00:54:13.700 at all. I mean, let's be frank. The best way that we could be supportive to our spouses

00:54:19.060 is for us to be on the path, doing well ourselves and not overreacting based upon how they're showing

00:54:26.540 up, us being, um, taking care of what we need to be taking care of and to have that strong self

00:54:32.880 confidence and self-respect for ourselves. So that way we're in a position, but if we're reactionary to

00:54:37.760 them, we're in no position to be helping them. And so be careful not to set some expectation of like,

00:54:43.540 cause that's what I kind of hear here is like, Oh, she's my, I'm getting exhausted. I'm wearing out.

00:54:48.660 Why? Because you're being supportive to your wife or because you have the expectation that

00:54:52.680 she should get through this and she's not. And now it's starting to bother you.

00:54:55.920 Be careful that you're not being reactionary to what she's going through.

00:55:00.880 I like that. I, I, there's been times in my relationship where I was emotional to whatever

00:55:06.280 she would share with me. Uh, it was more of like an emotional response and guess what that does to

00:55:11.340 women or anybody. Yeah. It's so erratic that they no longer want to share with you.

00:55:18.660 Because they don't know what they're going to get. Like, is this guy going to be mad? Is he going

00:55:21.800 to be happy? Is he going to cry? Is he going to be stoic? Is he going to like, well, like on any

00:55:25.200 given day, it could be a number of different things. And so they're like, Hey, like I'm not

00:55:29.420 going to share with you because it's, it's unsafe. Exactly. And instead the way that we create safe

00:55:35.280 environments for our people is to be consistent in our response to the things they're dealing with.

00:55:41.200 So if your son comes to you and says, Hey dad, I wrecked the car. Your response should be very

00:55:46.620 similar to, Hey dad, we just won the championship baseball game. What a weird thing. Right. And I'm

00:55:53.000 not saying you need to be happy about him wrecking the car, but you should be curious about it. If he

00:55:57.580 won the baseball game, you, you, you would say, Oh, what? Tell me about it. Like what happened?

00:56:02.520 How'd the game go? How did it play out? Like, did you feel good about your performance? If he wrecks

00:56:06.600 the car, it's like, Hey, tell me what happened. How did it, how'd that play out? What, what did

00:56:11.360 you do? Like, it's the same curiosity in both scenarios and they're on completely opposite

00:56:17.000 ends of the spectrum that creates a safe environment. Yeah. And that's what we want to

00:56:21.860 create for our people. Uh, there's a, I started going to a therapist about three or four weeks

00:56:26.440 ago and I've done therapy in the past with mixed reviews, but this guy's really good. And he taught

00:56:31.380 me some things last week and he taught me this concept of caring versus carrying people.

00:56:36.600 Caring for people comes from a place of empathy and love and compassion and kindness and

00:56:42.400 desire for them to thrive. And when carrying is when you pick up things that they could

00:56:51.740 carry themselves, that you are hindering and hamstringing them by doing things that they

00:56:57.660 should be able to figure out on their own. Um, by, by diminishing their ability and effort,

00:57:04.480 it's almost insulting to carry somebody because you're saying even subconsciously that they're

00:57:09.140 not capable of doing it themselves. This is a really interesting concept.

00:57:13.060 And you rob them from learning. I assume you do, you do. Of course you rob them of that

00:57:17.680 opportunity. So I know this is more of a 30,000 foot conversation, but if you could care for her

00:57:24.460 without carrying her, that's what you should focus on. What does that look like? What does care? And I

00:57:32.180 don't know because I don't know your wife, but what does a caring husband do? Not a husband that's

00:57:38.140 carrying her. I like that distinction. Jason Garner. I try to lead up and down the chain of command at my

00:57:45.940 job, but my superior seems clueless as to what is going on in the warehouse and is just worried about

00:57:52.420 his job and not the greater good. How do I lead up the chain of command with this type of scenario?

00:57:58.860 Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if he seems clueless again, that's results oriented focus on the

00:58:05.920 process. You sound like you're doing it right. Now there might be things that you can help him with.

00:58:10.120 Maybe he's got too much on his plate that he's like, I can't focus on what's going on in the

00:58:13.340 warehouse. There's things that you don't know about. Yep. So be really careful of making an assumption.

00:58:18.140 Like he doesn't care. I bet he cares. I'd be willing to bet that he cares to some degree.

00:58:23.140 But maybe it's just too much. You know, there's just too much on his plate or he's got bigger

00:58:26.660 priorities or maybe his boss breathing down his neck about something else that has nothing to do

00:58:30.460 with you. So be really, really careful of saying, oh, he doesn't care about it. And he's clueless.

00:58:36.420 So are you. There's things that are going on that you don't know. So if you can uncover,

00:58:41.540 and I think this is where you were going, if you can begin to uncover and explore what he's dealing with,

00:58:47.760 you might become a really, really valuable resource to him.

00:58:52.040 Totally. Yeah. Help him not be clueless.

00:58:55.200 Yeah.

00:58:55.760 Help him, help him win and understand what's what, not from this place of superiority or talking down,

00:59:04.780 but like ramp him up, help him win. Let's be frank, right? Like one, you can't control necessarily,

00:59:12.480 or like, you know, your realm of control is the warehouse, right? But the more that you can

00:59:19.180 communicate effectively, win in regards to your responsibilities of the warehouse and build reps

00:59:26.720 and confidence in what you're doing and establish stronger trust with your superior, the better.

00:59:33.700 It's going to help him. It's going to help you help him win and ultimately help him not be clueless

00:59:39.760 about it. Not from the place of like trying to look good, but so he's aware of those things.

00:59:44.660 Yeah. And in that, I would say, be cautious of again, being the hero, the brown noser, if you will.

00:59:52.040 Yeah. Because I have situations where people, you know, want to help and they'll just like

00:59:57.340 unload everything on me. And I'm like, that's not helpful for me, for what I'm dealing with,

01:00:02.580 or even my personality. Like if you come to me, Kip, with 10,000 things with all the data in the

01:00:07.620 I'm like, I like, like you can see my brain frying. Yeah. But if you come to me and you know this about

01:00:13.780 me, we've been working together long enough. If you come to me and you're like, Hey Ryan,

01:00:16.700 here's one, two, and three. Oh, thank you. Let's do this. That's the way I process that helps me

01:00:23.880 better. So you're actually being helpful when you do that. And when you don't do that, not only are

01:00:29.460 you not being helpful, you're actually more work, you're creating more work and that you're not just

01:00:34.160 helpful. You're now you're hindering. So try to understand his personality. And maybe the best

01:00:39.560 thing to do is, Hey boss, like I give you these reports each week. And like, I don't even know if

01:00:44.340 they're helpful to you or they're just a headache. I really don't know. Like, are there certain

01:00:48.260 metrics that you want to know of? Maybe there's three to five, or maybe you want, you know, 200.

01:00:53.560 I don't know. But what do you need from me to make sure that you feel good about what's happening down

01:00:58.080 here in the warehouse? To love that. Yeah. Assertiveness, right? Assertive. Let's take one more,

01:01:03.460 Kip. All right. Dustin Michael. I am suffering in total silence. I have a great job that I love and make an

01:01:11.300 attractive income. I serve my customers well, and I'm well liked in my company. I work out every day.

01:01:17.040 I prioritize my health and fitness. It's a huge passion for me. I read scriptures daily and journal

01:01:22.640 every evening. I have close friends. However, I, I feel really cold and alone. I'm unable to talk to

01:01:30.200 anyone because my people say things like it could be worse or everything happens for a reason.

01:01:35.640 My feelings are always invalidated. I cannot connect with professionals that I've tried to talk to

01:01:41.060 I feel stuck. I feel like I'm doing all of the right things, but my heart is broken.

01:01:46.400 I am really good about concealing my feelings because I believe that deep down, nobody really

01:01:51.520 cares. How do I begin to change? You and me are cut from the same cloth, man. Like all the things

01:02:00.240 that you said are the things that you're supposed to be doing. I read scriptures. I exercise. I go to

01:02:06.480 work. I make a good income. That's what you're quote unquote supposed to do, which is what I do.

01:02:13.680 I get up. I exercise. I read, drink my water. I do my morning routine. I'm doing the things I'm

01:02:19.600 supposed to do. Yeah. I got a good job. Like, so people look at it and they're like, oh yeah, see?

01:02:25.300 And then inside you're just like a basket case, but you hide it because you put on this persona.

01:02:30.480 This is something I'm learning. So I'm not an expert on this, but I think based on my own

01:02:36.040 personality and what I hear in your question is you really need to try to find some joy in your life.

01:02:41.200 And sometimes that means doing something that's fun, that has no productive value whatsoever.

01:02:49.120 It does, but you know what I'm saying? Like you're not doing it to do it. You're not doing it to check

01:02:54.800 it off a list. You're not doing it because it's part of 75 hard. You're not doing it because it's part

01:02:58.940 of your battle plan. You're like, I'm just going to go out and do this thing because it sounds

01:03:03.240 awesome. I'm not saying be reckless. Of course you have responsibilities, but you and me guys like

01:03:09.680 you and me, we need to find more joy and happiness in our lives. We really do. I don't, I don't want to

01:03:16.560 be a robot. I don't want to be David Goggins. I admire him in so many ways. And in so many ways,

01:03:23.160 I don't want to live my life like that. I really don't. And that's not an indictment on him. You can

01:03:27.920 choose his life however he wants. Again, that goes back to letting people live their lives and not

01:03:31.400 having a vested interest in it. I just don't want to live like that. And I have lived like that for

01:03:37.220 42 years of my life. You know, when, when I was little, my mom told me this, she's like, when,

01:03:42.300 when I was like two or three, she said, you started dressing yourself. And I'm like, really? Like when

01:03:47.740 I was two or three, she's like, yeah. She's like, I came in to get you dressed and you say, I don't

01:03:51.260 want to wear that. I'm wearing this instead. And she, I remember one time she came into me and she's like,

01:03:56.240 Hey, you're, you're a curfew. It was past my, my bedtime, you know? And, uh, and she says,

01:04:02.000 you need to go to bed. And I said, and I said, you know what, mom, I get good grades. I do my work.

01:04:06.840 I'm a good kid. I've got a job. I'm going to go to bed when I want to go to bed.

01:04:10.920 And if that starts to change, like if that's no, I know, but not really. I'm joking.

01:04:16.640 Not really. I mean, and, and if I, if those, and I told her, I said, if those things start to slip,

01:04:21.420 then I'll go to bed at whatever time you dictate. But for now I'm not going to bed.

01:04:25.660 And she's like, okay, like, this is my MO. Get work done. Figure out a way to do it.

01:04:33.160 Follow the system, follow the rules, do what you're supposed to do. And I'm miserable at times.

01:04:40.620 So I think that's what you should look for. Look for a little joy, man. Go to the beach and hang out.

01:04:46.860 Think about that. I've talked about the beach, bring a shovel so you can dig a hole so you're

01:04:50.060 productive. Right. You've heard me talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. Just go to the beach and lay

01:04:55.900 there and do nothing. Get a book, go to Barnes and Noble today, right? Get on Amazon and don't buy

01:05:02.040 sovereignty or masculinity manifesto. Like don't buy that shit. Go buy the latest thriller from Jack

01:05:08.440 Carr and read that. Like dude, just like brother, you and me need some fun in our life. Enough with the

01:05:15.400 product. You're productive. Okay. Like you can get back to being productive anytime. Joy.

01:05:20.400 Fulfillment, happiness. And then the other, again, my therapist used is the word buoyancy,

01:05:26.560 light, floating, enjoying, being present, letting the environment have its way with you in a way.

01:05:33.800 You know what I'm saying? Yeah. A couple of things come to mind, Dustin. I would actually,

01:05:39.500 I mean, there's probably a number of books that we could recommend. I mean, I actually,

01:05:44.020 we were talking about this over the weekend. The four agreements is, is such a great book.

01:05:48.720 It might be something for you to consider reading. But this might be deeper work to be frank. And I,

01:05:55.760 and I'm projecting on you, Dustin, like I'll give you, I have, I how's this? I'll just share a quick

01:06:01.500 example. I have by default, I have abandonment issues. One of the most profound things that Asia

01:06:08.500 has ever said to me once. And she, she didn't say this for like a long time. And, and as she's

01:06:14.980 still learning me and understanding me, it was probably about a year ago. And she said,

01:06:21.380 she says, you know what, Kip, as doesn't matter how difficult this marriage gets, I'm not going to

01:06:27.860 leave you. And that was like profound because that's what I always assume is going to happen

01:06:34.760 because that's my MO based upon how I was raised. Now, where did I get that? That feeling of abandonment?

01:06:43.380 It's stupid. And it's actually a lie, but it was something that I made true. When I was five

01:06:49.600 years old, my mom dropped me off at kindergarten. Didn't walk me into the room. Didn't show me what

01:06:55.980 was doing. She like literally pulled up to the school and goes, okay, have a good time. And I

01:07:03.640 remember wandering around scared shitless, like, where do I go? Who are these people? I didn't want to

01:07:11.400 talk to adults. I, all these kids. I didn't know. Like I felt abandoned as a child. And, and, and that

01:07:20.780 was a defining moment for me. And I know it was a defining moment because I saw the world one way.

01:07:25.580 And after that event, I saw it differently. And I made a promise to myself that I was not going to

01:07:33.300 feel this way again. So I'd clam up and I'd show up differently in the world based upon that experience.

01:07:39.220 And the funny thing, the reason why it's a lie is did my mom abandon me? No, the truth was she

01:07:45.460 dropped me off at the school. I didn't even know why or what else was going on. Hell, she could have

01:07:50.440 probably even walked into the school with me and I just don't remember it. And I just emotionally felt

01:07:55.660 that way. But that is what I held onto. And here I am 43 years old and I still feel the same way I did

01:08:02.960 when I was five, when there's opportunities of abandonment. And so I'm looking for evidence of

01:08:08.920 that truth in my life. I don't know if that's true for you, Dustin or not, but the probability is

01:08:14.400 this is not a new feeling that you have. You felt this way before you felt this way, probably

01:08:20.280 throughout your entire life. And you've never addressed it and realized that, Hey, when I'm feeling

01:08:26.420 like this, I'm digging in to those patterns of synapses that I had when I was five and looking

01:08:32.580 for evidence of it being true. And there's power in it, not to be a victim, not to look back and go,

01:08:38.680 Oh, see, I was abandoned when I was a kid. And this is just who I am. I'm not saying that. What I'm

01:08:42.820 saying is there's power in me going, geez, when Asia acts this way, I feel abandoned. Is that true?

01:08:49.440 No, that's not true. This is me projecting my past into the current situation. And I'm now showing

01:08:58.500 up in our relationship like a damaged little five-year-old kid. She doesn't deserve that.

01:09:04.660 That's where that feeling is coming from. That's not what we're experiencing right now. And now I can

01:09:09.660 take appropriate action because I know where it's coming from. And it's not this elusive, I'm stuck and

01:09:15.260 suffering in silence, but I have no context of where it's coming from.

01:09:20.520 Well said, man. I mean, that's awesome. So my question to you on that is what thoughts do you

01:09:27.500 have for getting to that point of doing that kind of work? Because I think most of us have those

01:09:34.660 things, whether it's abandonment's one for me, you know, I've, I've thought in my mind like, Oh yeah,

01:09:38.780 people are always, they always leave like everybody. And I know where that comes from. Dad,

01:09:43.080 two stepfather's leaving. And I do a lot of journaling to like reflect on these things in

01:09:48.020 the moment. Like, why am I feeling this way? And I dive deep, you know, like, Hey, you're feeling

01:09:51.580 abandoned or you're feeling hurt or, or betrayed is one that I get a lot. Like I feel betrayed.

01:09:57.480 Okay. I write like, why do I feel that way? What's going on? Is this true? And that's helpful for me,

01:10:02.520 but do you have any tips on that? Yeah, I do. I can't, I wish I could give credit. I read something at

01:10:07.820 some point and it rang true to me. All of those moments, we remember them like they're yesterday.

01:10:15.760 So you could look through your past and the moments that you, you feel them, you taste them,

01:10:21.500 like you remember them vividly. The probability is those are those defining moments in your life.

01:10:27.240 They roughly estimate that there's probably up to five defining moments between the ages of five,

01:10:31.520 all the way up to 15. And the key things about them is you saw the world one way and then you saw

01:10:38.620 it differently. And it changed. Like you made a decision, like something is wrong. And thus it

01:10:45.880 caused change in who you were as a person. And, and they're often tied also to our stories,

01:10:52.020 the stories we tell ourselves, not the stories that we tell other people, right. That we justify the way

01:10:57.160 we are like, Oh, you know, poor me. I, you know, I've had this upbringing and you know what I mean?

01:11:01.940 Like the things that we used to justify and feel good about ourselves. They're kind of hidden into

01:11:06.240 those stories. So I look through your past of like, what are these moments that I just remember,

01:11:10.540 like it was yesterday. And I remember something wrong and, and, and then do what you're doing.

01:11:15.900 Start journaling, going deep of like, what, what did I make that mean? What was that scenario?

01:11:20.760 And then most importantly, and this is the part I think is the part we miss figure out why it was a

01:11:27.520 lie. So much, so much is a lie. It really is like, I would even challenge people that, that had been

01:11:34.800 abused by your parents. You might go, well, my parents abused me because they didn't love me.

01:11:40.760 That's even a lie really separate your interpretation from what actually occurred.

01:11:48.380 I didn't, it wasn't abandoned. I got dropped off. That's it. Well, my mom didn't care. No,

01:11:55.340 she just dropped me off. I interpreted that she didn't care, right? That's my creation.

01:12:02.580 And so get really clear on that because some of those things, it's going to feel like truth.

01:12:07.140 And it's really important that you realize it's not truth. It's just your interpretation of it.

01:12:11.800 Well, and that's why I hate the, my true thing, because you're deceiving yourself.

01:12:15.560 Totally. You're accepting something.

01:12:17.260 Yeah. You're alluding to like, I, this is just me. This is my truth. So this is the way I am. No,

01:12:22.060 this is who you made yourself into even subconsciously. You made yourself into this

01:12:25.780 person. I think about it. You know, I, I, I think about what, what my deficiencies are.

01:12:31.400 And I also think about what I'm good at. And one thing that I am really good at a trait that I have

01:12:35.500 is I'm very loyal, very loyal. And I'm very committed to a detriment at times. And I asked myself,

01:12:42.960 well, okay, well, why, why is that? Well, it's because of the abandonment. It's because of the

01:12:47.460 betrayal or my interpretation of it because I didn't like that experience. And it was so

01:12:54.860 life-changing for me. I started to behave differently. And now I'm a little like a loyal,

01:13:01.640 again, to a detriment. When you're on team Mickler, you're on team, like you, I'm always on

01:13:07.120 your team, regardless. That's where that came from. So you could even begin to explore

01:13:12.500 what are your traits and characteristics and what are they attempting to mask and hide?

01:13:19.360 Yeah.

01:13:19.740 Why did you adapt the way that you did? What scars have built up? What patterns and behaviors have

01:13:24.900 you incorporated that I would say are healthy a lot, like being loyal is a healthy characteristic.

01:13:29.460 Some of them serve us very well, right? All of them serve us. Otherwise we wouldn't have adapted

01:13:34.420 to be that way. But what's underneath the scar tissue? If you're loyal, why what's underneath it?

01:13:41.940 I'm not saying don't be loyal, continue to be loyal, but figure out where it comes from.

01:13:46.140 If you feel like, if you're just like the hard charging, got to get it done. Just your value and

01:13:52.320 your worth is determined by your results. Why, why, why do you feel, who are you trying to prove that to?

01:13:59.460 I'm not saying don't be hardworking. And I'm saying figure out who you're trying to impress

01:14:04.480 or get you to love or get to them to love you. Get to those root things. I think one resource on

01:14:11.760 this is Connor Beaton with Man Talks. His new book, Men's Work is really phenomenal for this. A lot of

01:14:17.440 shadow work introduced by young Carl Jung. But yeah, he's got some really insightful stuff. So you should

01:14:23.100 check that out as well. Yeah, for sure. Cool. All right, brother. Let's wrap it up.

01:14:27.560 Yeah. So as always connect with us on the socials at Ryan Mickler for Twitter and Instagram. We mentioned

01:14:34.280 that we're filling questions, obviously from our Facebook group, join us there, facebook.com

01:14:38.380 slash group slash order of man. And we roughly got another month or so before we open up the

01:14:44.260 membership for the iron council. If you want to stay notified in regards to what's going on there,

01:14:49.560 go to order of man.com slash irons council, sign up, get part of that newsletter so you can get

01:14:54.480 proper communication of when we open up our membership. That's right. All right, guys. Cool.

01:14:59.440 Great questions today. Appreciate the questions. Hopefully we gave you some good answers and we'll

01:15:03.400 be back on Friday until then go out there and let's take action and become the man we are meant to be.

01:15:08.020 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:15:12.340 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:15:19.560 We'll be right back.

Order of Man - May 17, 2023

Hope Vs. Despair, Motivation Vs. Discipline, and Caring Vs. Carrying ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING

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