J.K. Amazey makes the case for why we ought to engage in pornography and masturbating less, how to overcome the urge to participate in these activities, and how porn erodes and undermines masculinity in a society that seems to be increasingly forgetful regarding what it means to be a man.
00:00:00.000Pornography is something that all men have likely engaged in to some degree, but what's fascinating is the debate that ensues whenever someone suggests that pornography is not good for men.
00:00:11.640My guest today, J.K. Amazey, makes the case for why we ought to engage in pornography and masturbating less, how to overcome the urge to participate in these activities, how the temptation is only likely to get worse, and how porn erodes and undermines masculinity.
00:00:27.380You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:00:52.340Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast, The Order of Man. Whether you're new or you've been a long-time listener, I'm glad you're tuning in.
00:01:01.860I'm glad you're implementing some of the information we're talking about. I'm glad you're following in and having the conversations that we're having with regards to reclaiming and restoring what it means to be a man in a society that seems to be increasingly forgetful regarding what it is that it means to be a man and what our role is of protector, provider, and presider.
00:01:20.520Guys, it's my job each and every week to have these conversations with some incredible men. Today is no different. And we've had other guys on like Jocko Willink and Andy Frisilla and Grant Cardone and Tim Kennedy and Leif Babin and Dakota Meyer. I could go on and on. I won't, but I could.
00:01:36.460We've got an amazing list of men who have joined in this movement, who have imparted some of their wisdom, and I'm glad, again, that you're here. So make sure you subscribe. Make sure you rate and review the show. We need to get this into the minds and ears of more men, and we do that by your sharing.
00:01:53.460This is a grassroots movement. I don't spend a whole lot of money, time, and tension on buying ads and promoting it that way. We really, really rely upon you sharing this with your brothers, your fathers, your friends, your colleagues, your coworkers, and those of you who have. I really appreciate that. And those of you who have not yet done that, please, I would ask humbly that you go ahead and take care of that.
00:02:12.720Guys, we've got a good one lined up for you today, kind of a controversial subject, which I don't really think it should be, but it is nonetheless. So we'll get into that here in a minute.
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00:03:37.100All right. Go take care of that after the show, guys. Let's tune into this one. Again, my guest today, his name is JK Amazie. He is a sex and pornography addiction coach, which I know a lot of men out there are dealing with this. He's been in the business, in the industry for the last nine years, and he helps guys overcome porn, masturbation, some of these other sexual compulsive disorders.
00:03:57.340And guys, this is a very fascinating discussion with someone who is well-qualified and well-versed to talk about the sexual issues that a lot of men deal with. So he's written for our site before. A lot of you guys might be familiar with it. And one of his articles happens to be one of our most controversial to date because he covers a topic that a lot of men, frankly, just aren't comfortable discussing. I understand why. And one that remains very polarizing to a lot of guys as well. So that's what this is about.
00:04:25.560So tune in, take some notes. If you need to share this, if you know anybody who may need to hear it, it is definitely a conversation that I had been asked about. And I'm glad to bring this conversation with JK to you guys.
00:04:38.020JK, what's up, man? Thanks for joining me on the show today.
00:04:40.200Hey, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
00:04:42.580We've been connected for a couple of years now, and you did an article for us. Gosh, it must've been a year, maybe a year and a half ago on the damages of pornography, which was polarizing. We'll call it that.
00:04:54.960It was polarizing, which is amazing to me. I don't, I don't think it's all that polarizing, but it seems to be that the subject of pornography and masturbation is. Do you find that to be the case?
00:05:10.160Okay. I wasn't aware of that. I did not know that.
00:05:12.680Yeah. It was kind of interesting that, and anytime the subject of pornography is broached within our Facebook group, there's polar ends of, of, and opposite ends of the extreme.
00:05:25.160It's either somebody's like, no, it's bad. Don't do it all. Or it's just not a big deal. And nobody sees the problem with it. There's no middle ground or anything. It's just, it's just really, really interesting to see.
00:05:34.100I see a lot of destruction that comes from it. And I think there's a lot of guys who either don't see that or refuse to see that maybe, or I don't know, we can hash this out today.
00:05:42.860Yeah. I hope we can do that. I definitely agree that it is polarizing. And as somebody who literally, this is all I do. It is basically my path and my mission.
00:05:52.780And I've become quite adept at answering the questions that come with that. But I wasn't aware it was like that on your blog. Actually, it was funny because a lot of really amazing men reached out to me after I wrote that blog post and just started sharing their stories.
00:06:07.340And I was like, where did you come from? And they're like, dude, I read your article, An Order of Man. And I was like, this is true. I never thought of it that way.
00:06:12.880There's a lot of great discussion, but I found that the most of the discussions that we have in the Facebook group, well, it's a bunch of men who are strong-willed, right?
00:06:22.320And so we agree mostly, I think. Obviously, that makes sense because they're attracted to what it is. We're doing the message we're sharing. But anytime there's a disagreement, it's an adamant disagreement. It's not, hey, let's have an open dialogue about this. It's like polar opposites. It's crazy to me. It's absolutely crazy.
00:06:38.220Well, I guess let's start the framework for the discussion like this. On the surface, what is the initial problems that you have identified that you see with pornography? And then I think we can get a little deeper and hash some of this stuff out.
00:06:52.320That's a fantastic question. I could list out a lot of different problems, but there are about four or five main problems that I've discovered that are painful enough for men that leads them to actually seek help from porn.
00:07:07.140And the first one is actually what happens with their values. And before that, actually, Ryan, I'd like to preface this with saying that men who choose to quit their behavior with pornography only do so for three reasons.
00:07:20.960The first is love. The second is duty. And the third is fear. Some of the things that happen, I think that the most emasculating would be porn-induced erectile dysfunction, which simply means that you've watched pornography to the point that your brain has rewired itself to be only aroused by material, which is pornographic in nature and in many cases is extreme in nature.
00:07:44.400And it's just things that you wouldn't even talk about with your partner, which your wife. These are fantasies that you would much rather keep hidden.
00:07:52.280That's emasculating when it doesn't work and when you're not able to have sex because you need to be stimulated by something artificial.
00:08:01.580Another one would be the isolation and the shame that comes with it.
00:08:04.900Now, many men don't talk about it, and I'm sure many men listening to this can relate because I know that many treatment professionals out there do not bring this up because it is very, very controversial.
00:08:15.900But that is the shame that comes from acting out.
00:08:19.360What I've noticed, particularly in the last two to three years, is more and more men acting out their fantasies.
00:08:26.740I'm not saying that they become sex addicts, but they have actually started taking steps in real life to fulfill what they see.
00:08:35.560And oftentimes, whatever steps they take end up in shame.
00:08:39.420That shame is not great for any aspect of your life, particularly the way you identify as a man.
00:08:47.220We can hop into that a little bit later because I'll be happy to do it.
00:08:50.880And the final thing is what porn does to your goals and your ability to achieve different things.
00:08:58.420So most men complain a lot about when they reach out to me, they're like, JK, I know I've been watching porn.
00:09:04.760I've masturbated to the point that I'm sexually satiated.
00:09:08.940I will masturbate and I watch pornography.
00:09:11.280And for two to three weeks, I have zero interest in sex.
00:09:14.420And then after a couple of weeks or a couple of days, then I feel like going for it again.
00:09:20.860But JK, I have no motivation to do anything once I'm sexually satiated.
00:09:34.760And what this does for older men, and when I say older, I specifically mean men who are in their mid-30s onwards, is that it becomes a liability to their career.
00:09:47.720And for younger men, it takes away their ability to actually build skills that are marketable.
00:09:54.360And it takes away the drive that they need, particularly in their 20s, to build a strong financial foundation.
00:10:01.800Let me butt in here because I want to talk about the other side.
00:10:04.660If you're talking about men being sexually satiated because of pornography and masturbation, do we not experience the same thing when we engage in the act of natural sex?
00:10:16.580Is there a difference between the two when it comes to external motivation and drive to exceed in a career, for example?
00:10:36.660I love the fact that you went straight for that because every time I put out an article or a video, this is where it's a war zone in the comments.
00:10:43.660Like two years later, I come back, why are you guys still fighting here?
00:11:03.860But one of the things I want to make clear to the listeners is that if necessary, I will provide the studies so that they just don't think I'm a guy running his mouth.
00:11:10.900One of the first things when it comes to sexual satiation that I've noticed and studies have proven and I've noticed in my practice is that when you have sex with a woman, more often than not, there are certain neurotransmitters and certain hormones.
00:11:26.100Neurotransmitters are simply brain chemicals and certain hormones that are released.
00:11:30.020And not all the same hormones are released when you masturbate.
00:11:34.660One key hormone that is not released when you masturbate is oxytocin.
00:11:38.700And oxytocin, you may be familiar with it, is a bonding chemical.
00:11:42.660And a certain level of endorphins, which are released during sex, are not released and do not remain in your system for as long when you masturbate.
00:11:53.260So there is a biochemical reaction that takes place when you masturbate and a separate one when you have sex.
00:12:00.640And each of them carries on throughout your day.
00:12:03.480So your biochemistry, for instance, one of the things I tell my clients is how you start your day and how you go through your day is very, very important.
00:12:11.920But when you masturbate and when you have sex and even when you do that has an impact on you because of the biochemical nature of each of these acts.
00:12:21.620So, yes, when you masturbate, most guys can even notice it by doing it.
00:12:26.620You literally most of the time do not have energy to continue anything you're doing.
00:12:30.920Now, when you have sex and let's say it's a busy day, for instance, and you have sex in the middle of the day, if you're one of those people who's fortunate enough to work from home.
00:12:39.440Yeah, you may lay in bed for a little bit.
00:12:41.640You may feel a slight urge to masturbate a few hours later.
00:12:44.700But by and large, you're going to get back to work and you're going to feel great.
00:12:51.640It was great sex or not great sex, but it was sex.
00:12:54.300But when you masturbate in the middle of the day and any guy who's listening to this who works from home or even at an office and, you know, hops into the bathroom to rub one out, knows for a fact that they are a lot more irritable if they were having a particularly stressful day.
00:13:11.680While they may have masturbated in order to feel better about themselves, they actually find themselves getting more stressed.
00:13:16.700If there are any specific strong emotions that they're susceptible to, and for many men who struggle with this, the primary emotion is anger, they find themselves more angry throughout the day.
00:13:27.380And if we go to even an emotional level, masturbation versus having sex, when you masturbate, there is a higher chance that you are going to feel lonely.
00:13:37.720There is going to feel that loneliness or need for intimacy after you've had sex, especially with somebody that you trust and you love or you're in a committed relationship with.
00:13:58.280Yeah, I mean, this is really fascinating.
00:14:00.880I'm just wondering if the reason it is, and maybe again, I'm generalizing here too, is because you're participating in the act of sex in a way, except for you actually didn't complete the objective, which would be to procreate and to connect with a woman.
00:14:17.920You know, I've thought about that as well, and I find that these are, this specific area, and why I said you're wandering straight into a, you're leading us rather, into a minefield, is because no one has been able to give a very definitive answer.
00:14:34.480What the research shows is that biochemically, that's what's happening.
00:14:38.960But I really do think that that's a very fascinating way to bring it up.
00:14:42.500And you're saying that you think that maybe it's perhaps because we did not complete what we were supposed to do, which was ejaculate into a woman and fulfill what we are supposed to do biologically.
00:14:53.380And when you don't do it, your brain is like, hey, or your body is like, what are you doing?
00:14:58.360To me, it almost seems like you're practicing for the big game, but then you never actually compete in the big game.
00:15:03.360How long could you actually do that before you become dissatisfied with the practice itself?
00:15:42.200Yeah, but I also think like any addiction, that it's probably capable for somebody to be dissatisfied with an engagement in that addiction,
00:15:51.440and yet still have the desire to participate in it, even though they know that it's destructive for them.
00:16:16.740You know, and I know we'll get into a little bit more about where this comes from in the biology and all of that stuff that comes with the desire to watch pornography, which, I mean, it makes sense.
00:16:25.840I mean, we're attracted to women, their bodies, obviously.
00:16:28.940A woman's body is designed to be attracted to for a man.
00:16:33.860So it's a difficult thing to even broach because it is natural for a man to be physically attracted to a woman.
00:16:41.860So it's such a difficult – like you said, it's like this minefield of like, it's good, but it's not good, and it's right, and it's natural, but then you shouldn't do it.
00:16:50.660And so it's like hard to really understand how this is going to serve us well or hinder us from accomplishing what we want to accomplish.
00:16:59.660To make it clear, because I vacillate when I'm saying that, it's simply because I never want a man to be listening to what I'm saying or watching a video or reading an article and get the impression that it is black or white.
00:17:14.820And many men, as you said, especially men who are strong-willed men, for men who are more masculine, it is a black and white thing.
00:17:27.760I will say this very clearly, that I personally, and professionally actually, do not find anything wrong with the biological act of masturbation.
00:17:39.980Nor do I find anything wrong with pornography itself.
00:17:43.900However, I do have a problem with two specific things.
00:17:47.040The first is high-speed internet pornography.
00:17:51.560And that is where the problem comes in.
00:17:53.260Because when pornography was available for decades and decades, and actually millennia, it had never been a problem to the point that it came to the forefront of our society or culture.
00:18:06.220It is high-speed internet that just exposed us.
00:18:09.320So men who watch it now have 15 tabs open, going from tab to tab, looking for the one, like a little monkey, looking for the one that is going to, the shot that's going to get them off.
00:18:20.860That is creating new neural pathways in your brain.
00:18:24.000So you're saying it's the quantity and the exposure that's the problem, not the pornography itself?
00:18:32.680And when we talk about not the type of pornography itself, we have to understand that one doesn't come without the other.
00:18:38.300It is because of the quantity and the exposure that there is now a need for more and more hardcore pornography because we are searching for novelty.
00:18:46.800We need more and more novel stuff because if we expose – if a man exposes himself in literally one sitting, a man can expose himself in, let's say, an hour and a half of watching high-speed internet pornography to more naked women and more sex than all his ancestors from his grandfather up had ever exposed themselves to in their lifetime, which is insane.
00:19:12.100And that is why there is more explicit pornography.
00:19:15.380Yeah, I mean this is interesting and it's only going to manifest itself even more so.
00:19:19.420I mean we have things like virtual reality, which is going to create more of this.
00:19:24.540We also have sex robots, which is going to create more and more of this.
00:19:28.200I mean this is only going to exponentially increase the quantity and quality of the access to, well, naked women, frankly.
00:19:37.300Yeah, and don't forget the sex bot brothels that are now popping up, which I think is an interesting concept.
00:19:43.180But as far as it comes to our values, our culture, who we are, I feel that it's going to be so destructive.
00:19:52.680And I have a hopeful outlook, Ryan, when it comes to us saving ourselves.
00:19:59.280And when I say saving ourselves, I literally mean the individual man raising his awareness and saving himself and his family.
00:20:09.180So if a man says, I'm going to disengage from pornography and masturbation, what is it that he's saving himself from?
00:20:15.240It's not about disengaging from pornography and masturbation.
00:20:18.860It is more about awareness, first of all, of certain things in our culture we are exposed to that are going to change our values if we're exposed to it.
00:20:30.120So, for instance, if a man just says, like, you know what, I don't have a problem with pornography, I'm cool with watching it.
00:20:36.200Well, he's choosing to expose himself to something that once he is watching porn, once he is engaged in that behavior, that is already altering his neural pathways, whether he likes it or not.
00:20:47.760As far as I'm concerned, while there are some men who are not susceptible to addiction, and I've met these men, the vast majority of men, it is only a matter of time before it affects their relationship in one way or the other.
00:21:01.000I'll use myself as an example since I'm speaking.
00:21:03.480I personally do not watch pornography, and I also do not choose to masturbate.
00:21:08.800I'm in a relationship, and I have disciplined myself that if I want to have sexual release, then it is going to be with my partner.
00:21:16.660Now, some may see that as extreme, but I know plenty of men who live that way, and it's fine.
00:21:22.080There are also men who are just like, I choose to not watch pornography at all in any form, and I choose only to masturbate and, you know, have sex.
00:21:32.160And then there are yet other men who say, if I watch pornography, it's only going to be with my partner.
00:21:36.860But as we're doing it on a regular basis as a form of entertainment, that is absolutely destructive in the long run.
00:21:44.500And it's the man who chooses to understand the dangers of exposing it to himself will quite naturally come to the conclusion that watching it is doing him no good.
00:21:55.520I would love to be in a debate with somebody where they would tell me the benefits of pornography, especially high-speed internet pornography.
00:22:01.180Well, I'm sure just because you said that, you're going to get plenty of comments from people who are going to give you a whole broad array of reasons that they can think of that would actually benefit their lives, and some may be less valid than others, certainly.
00:22:27.500I'm actually trying to think of a reason it would be beneficial itself, and the only thing that I can possibly come up with is that maybe it's some sort of stress relief, I guess, is the only thing that I can think of.
00:22:39.700That's not something that I've researched necessarily, but that's on the surface something that I could possibly think that somebody might say.
00:22:46.160I hear that a lot, so I'll give you a very typical example.
00:22:50.580First of all, I'm saying all of this under the assumption that we are speaking to a very specific type of man who is your audience, who are aligned with your mission or some of your values.
00:23:01.800And if a man comes to me and says, you know what, JK, I just wanted to talk to you because everything else in my life is fine.
00:23:09.180My life is not falling apart because of my porn use.
00:23:12.280However, I notice that every time I feel extremely overwhelmed with my work, I use pornography, and it's becoming compulsive.
00:23:20.520It's compulsive because when I'm at work, I feel like I suddenly need to watch pornography, and it's risky.
00:23:25.420I feel like I need to go to the bathroom and watch porn on my phone, and this is at work, and very, very common.
00:23:31.480A lot of porn is watched in America's workplaces.
00:23:36.340That's actually what most employees are doing.
00:24:02.160And as simple as it sounds, it is as simple as men going to bed with their phones, looking at the phone, eventually watching pornography and going to bed late.
00:24:12.940That happens so often, and we literally have an entire community where we have run polls and found out that that is one of the most common reasons why men are stressed out the next day at work and they keep masturbating.
00:24:25.040Stress can be dealt with with a variety of coping skills.
00:25:06.140So what would you then suggest as some of these coping mechanisms or even strategies to resist the urge, especially for somebody who is trying to overcome a potential addiction to pornography and masturbation?
00:25:25.300Whenever you fight the urge, it makes it worse.
00:25:28.920And I like to use the analogy that I heard from a speaker called Rory Vaden, where he talked about these planes or somewhere he lived out, I think maybe it was in Montana, and there were cattle and buffalo.
00:25:40.360And whenever a storm would come through these planes, the cattle would run away from the storm.
00:25:48.740And these suckers would end up running with the storm, exposing themselves to the maximum amount of damage from the storm.
00:25:55.760The buffalo, which had lived on that plane for thousands of years, would actually run towards the storm, and they would run through it, thereby minimizing the amount of damage that they got from the storm.
00:26:06.700In fact, they were spending much less time in it.
00:26:08.700And I tell men, first of all, accept the urge and don't fight it.
00:27:32.780I give an example of an exercise that I typically give my clients.
00:27:36.300And this is also part of some of the free exercises I have out there, which is actually a feelings exercise.
00:27:41.140So feelings exercise, I say, when you wake up in the morning and if you have a morning routine and you're struggling with porn, one of the first things I suggest you do is write two lines down.
00:27:51.020And the first line, first thing in the morning after you use the bathroom is, I feel, and you write down the emotion you feel that morning.
00:27:57.660It could be anxiety about the upcoming meeting that I have today.
00:28:02.040And right under it, you write, I first remember feeling anxious when, and then you go back as far as you can in your history to identify the first time you felt that way.
00:28:14.980And you do that three times every morning.
00:28:17.040Now, what that does after about two weeks is that it helps you to increase your awareness.
00:28:22.760Professionals tell people to meditate, but it's not for everyone.
00:28:25.240And I found this is a very practical way of increasing your awareness.
00:28:28.920So what does this have to do with your urges?
00:28:30.880Well, later on in the day, as you practice this, you become aware of the emotion that precedes the urge.
00:28:39.180Because, Ryan, anybody who struggles with an out-of-control sexual behavior or out-of-control behavior in masturbation or pornography experiences an emotion prior to the urge.
00:28:50.760But if they are not self-aware, they just think they're horny.
00:28:53.660What are the emotions usually that your clients are usually experiencing or feeling when they have this urge?
00:28:59.040They vary, but the most common ones are, first of all, anger and frustration.
00:29:06.400And there's a low-level anxiety about worrying about what other people, which usually comes from worrying about what other people will think about them in a certain situation or the ramifications of something that hasn't happened already.
00:29:18.080And so when they're anxious and they remain in this anxious position for quite a while, one of the ways to relieve it is by releasing dopamine.
00:29:26.280And so it's quite easy to just watch some pornography, get your mind off it, release some massive amounts of dopamine into your body.
00:29:43.440It's going to be an exercise you do today and it works.
00:29:45.580No, but you will notice immediately that, and you'd probably still watch porn at first if you tried it, but you would notice that, oh, okay.
00:29:53.880So in the middle of the day, around two o'clock in the afternoon, I get a little tired and I'm more prone to be anxious about something that's happening later.
00:30:01.560Or in the evening, when I come home and the kids are running about and my wife is a little bit stressed out because she had a wrong day and she feels like I'm not helping with anything, I may get a little angry.
00:30:14.980And right after that anger, automatically, there's just something happening in my brain.
00:30:20.200There's a neural pathway that's connected to it.
00:30:22.220Immediately, I'm like, oh, I need to watch porn.
00:30:25.200And I'm starting to become aware of it.
00:30:27.300And I don't know your other steps here, but I'm assuming it will naturally move you into the next steps, which is, okay, now we can start having new outlets or courses of action for the urges that we experience and are aware of now.
00:30:42.140But for anybody who just wanted to start, the first thing would be don't try to control your urges with willpower.
00:30:47.780You cannot control something like that.
00:30:49.300You're only going to end up repressing it and acting out.
00:30:53.460And when we say acting out, it's actually done binging on pornography for longer than you wanted to.
00:30:58.200Well, because I imagine you're just compounding the emotion, right?
00:31:01.680You're compounding the anger, you're compounding the frustration or whatever it may be that's actually causing the urge in the first place.
00:31:09.620And then chances are you end up watching even more violent, disturbing porn than you would have on a day that you just went ahead and did what you had to do.
00:31:17.480So I tell guys, they're like, well, do I need to stop watching porn if I work?
00:31:21.540I'm like, no, like when you first start, it's okay.
00:31:25.440Masturbate, do what you want to do, but become aware first because you need to know what is fueling your problem.
00:31:32.600Because if you use any other method or you go out there and you just want to stop the behavior without knowing the origins of that behavior for you, then you're susceptible to end up blaming anything for your porn use.
00:31:45.160You could just say, oh, it's religion.
00:31:52.980Well, it really depends on the client.
00:31:54.900One of the things that I advocate for most men, Ryan, is community and accountability.
00:32:00.360It is very important because most men who specifically have a problem with pornography isolate.
00:32:05.840One of the characteristics of porn use, compulsive porn use, is isolation because over past a particular age, usually when you become an adult, you're not watching porn with your buddies anymore.
00:32:17.820When you isolate and you finish whatever business that you're doing with pornography, for most men, there's a feeling of guilt and shame that comes up.
00:32:27.460One of the questions I get from men is, why is it that I feel some guilt and shame when I masturbate to pornography and what should I do?
00:32:35.180And I tell them that the next step after awareness is accountability.
00:32:39.880So if you can reach out to an accountability partner, to somebody else and let them know not about your urge, but about the emotion that you're experiencing, that accountability partner knows that, hey, this is a day where Jim is more likely to act out later on in the day.
00:32:57.400So, for instance, Ryan, with my personal clients, if I'll give you an example of a client I'm working with right now, he has an issue with anxiety and he is prone to experience anxiety around the early afternoon.
00:33:09.480So all he needs to do is hit me up, text me and just let me know that, hey, just so you know, I'm feeling very particularly anxious today.
00:33:18.120And for him, finishing his day and coming home is a relief, but an extra relief from all the pent-up anxiety from today is watching pornography.
00:33:29.640So I know there's a very high chance that he's going to act out and watch pornography the next day.
00:33:58.580And I tell them one of the easiest ways to start is by putting a filter on your devices, which is basically a filter that blocks pornographic material.
00:34:07.660So even without accountability, if you cannot get an accountability partner on your own, you have something that's stopping you when you try to act out.
00:34:15.580So what are you going to do if you can't watch porn and it's blocked on your phone and on your laptop?
00:34:36.120Here's the immediate gratification answer to the equation and the problem that I'm experiencing.
00:34:41.160But I think if you make that a more challenging path that you're probably take the easier path, which is I got to get up and go for a walk or go into the gym or have a conversation with my wife or whatever.
00:35:16.420Now, environment literally means where you spend the majority of your time.
00:35:21.220And for some men, I'll give you an example.
00:35:23.980Some men live with roommates who have various addiction.
00:35:27.800For instance, they live with roommates who have an internet addiction.
00:35:30.560They live with roommates who have a porn addiction.
00:35:33.240Some men at a certain age have kind of not really taken off in life.
00:35:37.760And I think you even had a podcast on this on the Peter Pan thing.
00:35:40.800I listened to that way back where a lot of these men also have a problem with pornography.
00:35:47.720But the issue there for these men specifically is that if you're at a certain age and still living with your parents and you really haven't launched into the world yet, you are still dealing with any dysfunctions that your parents might have.
00:36:01.440And that is another thing that's going to cause you to act out and to deal with your issues and to ignore the reality of your situation.
00:36:08.320So I always tell men the environment has to change.
00:36:11.340Some men are in places where there's so much technology and no accountability.
00:36:15.860Nobody cares how you use your devices.
00:36:26.620And trauma work are for those men who actually experienced abuse, abandonment, or neglect at some point in their life.
00:36:35.340So for men who, for instance, were physically abused and never addressed that, or for men who were sexually abused, or men who were neglected or abandoned by their parents, just to be very specific, it wasn't as if like you were left at home alone.
00:36:49.740Maybe your parents just, let's say for school or with your clothing, just didn't make sure that you were well taken care of with the clothes you wore.
00:36:58.760It could be something as little as that.
00:37:02.240Usually with men like that, when I work with them, I work on the other areas that they need to work on.
00:37:07.360And for their trauma work, I refer them to a licensed sex addiction therapist who helps them with the past, the issues from their past.
00:37:15.200And the final one is men's biochemistry.
00:37:18.220This goes all the way to testosterone.
00:37:20.640A good portion of the men I work with, more than 50%, they just speak to me, ask them a few questions over the period of an hour.
00:37:27.200I'm like, man, go get your testosterone levels checked.
00:37:30.620Because there are some men who, they actually are unable to have sex with their partner, they feel depressed, and then they read somewhere or hear somewhere about all the effects of pornography addiction and masturbation addiction, and they think it applies to them.
00:37:45.000When in reality, their testosterone levels are in the toilets.
00:37:48.760And that's a biochemical issue where the only way they can actually ejaculate and experience sexual pleasure when they have low testosterone is by exposing themselves over and over to pornography.
00:37:59.700And, of course, the phone thing, exposing yourself, just using the internet all the time, going to bed late, and staying on your phone every given moment, that does affect your biochemistry.
00:38:11.520Finally, when it comes to biochemistry, is their schedule.
00:38:13.760I tell men that your schedule is your lifeline.
00:38:15.860If, first of all, you have no idea what you're doing in life, and I ask you, hey, man, what are you doing on a Thursday evening?
00:38:23.880And you're like, dude, I'm just watching Netflix.
00:38:26.140Without having a direction, you leave the rest of your life, those blank spaces in your calendar, open to anything.
00:38:33.720And sex, pornography, orgasm, well, let's take the sex out, orgasm, masturbation, and pornography, it's so easy for it to just naturally fit in there because that's what we gravitate to naturally as men.
00:38:47.740So having that purpose and mission is extremely important.
00:38:51.320And it's actually one of the other reasons why I direct a lot of men to Order of Man because I'm like, yeah, you can fix all these issues in your life, man, but if you do not know where you're going and you don't establish any sort of values, it is just quite natural as a man for you to end up there again.
00:39:12.040For a lot of us, that conjures up happy images and memories, but it also calls into question some of the negative circumstances in which men find themselves.
00:39:23.400And as we head into the new year, it's critical.
00:39:25.660Guys, it's critical that we all start redefining our goals and our plans in how to achieve those things moving forward.
00:39:33.280And that's why I want to talk with you about the Iron Council.
00:39:35.280You've heard me talk about it before, but this is a brotherhood of men who are all working together.
00:39:39.720We're all working to achieve and be more in our own lives and the lives of the people that we have responsibility for.
00:39:45.460So when you band with us, one of the very first things that you are going to do is utilize our planning tool.
00:39:51.540It's called the 12-week battle plan to help you identify some key objectives for specifically key objectives in some certain and specific areas that are important to you.
00:40:00.840And more importantly than that, a system for helping you achieve more than potentially you ever have in the past.
00:40:10.140If you've been on the fence, you've been wondering if this thing is the right thing for you.
00:40:13.860Now is the right time as we head into the new year and make a very conscious effort to become the men that we have the ability and the capacity and that we're meant to be.
00:40:23.920So if you want to learn more about what we're doing inside of the Iron Council, you want to lock in your spot before the new year, before we get implementing these battle plans, head to orderofman.com slash iron council.
00:40:34.920Again, that's orderofman.com slash iron council.
00:40:38.600You can do that after the show as well.
00:40:40.600But for now, I'll get back to my conversation with JK.
00:40:42.920I want to go back to what we started off with, which was the three reasons to quit porn.
00:40:49.660You said number one was love, and I think that's pretty self-explanatory.
00:40:53.360You've made a commitment to honor another human being, and so you want to honor that commitment.
00:41:00.380Break these down a little bit further.
00:41:01.780Love, duty, and then the last one, fear.
00:41:03.600I'd be really curious how each of these break down.
00:41:06.060Love is, as you explained, and it also extends to your children.
00:41:10.780And so for many men who their reason for ending their behavior is love, I meet a lot of men who have their first child.
00:41:17.920And as their child grows up, they just go like, you know what?
00:41:20.540I'm watching some really disturbing material, and I do not want to be a man who has a child and watches this sort of behavior.
00:41:30.060Sometimes they can't put their finger on it, but it just feels that they're not aligned with their values when they have a child, and this is happening.
00:41:37.040Some men have young boys, and this is even more common, where they know that it is only a matter of time.
00:41:44.600In today's culture, your child is not going to kind of skip porn.
00:41:54.560And so they go like, well, I can prepare my child, but I would be a hypocrite if I'm sitting there preparing my child and talking to them about the dangers of pornography when I myself have a compulsive behavior with it.
00:42:13.800I imagine a lot of these are somewhat overlapped here.
00:42:16.260At first glance, as you're actually saying them out, it seems as if you could apply all of them to family.
00:42:22.160But duty also applies to a man's primary mission in life, whatever that may be.
00:42:27.660On the lower level, on the secondary level, it could apply to his career, especially if he's realizing that his addiction to pornography and masturbation is not allowing him to push himself.
00:42:40.780Because it's very, very difficult when you have this compulsive behavior with porn and masturbation to get motivated and to push yourself beyond a certain level.
00:42:51.580And then when it comes to your mission, these are so far apart.
00:42:56.340Sitting in front of a computer, hiding away from your wife and children, saying that you're going to check emails late in the evening, and masturbating away and your mission for what you want to contribute in your lifetime.
00:43:08.780Yeah, we had a podcast that I did called The Integrity Gap, which was basically what you know you should be doing relative to what you're actually doing.
00:43:18.000And the larger that gap, the more dissatisfied and unfulfilled you'll be in life.
00:43:22.740Sounds like that's what you're talking about here.
00:43:24.760Yeah, I actually like the way you're explaining it.
00:43:27.900On another level, it's you are engaging in the most animal aspect of your existence, versus the same time could be used to engage in the most evolved, and we could even say enlightened path that you could be on.
00:43:46.520It is fear of, if we go with the family route, fear of losing your wife, fear of your escalating porn use, and maybe you've gotten to a point where you're acting out.
00:43:59.180You've watched it, and you're having, every time you have a problem in your marriage or in your relationship, immediately you're wondering why.
00:44:07.260You're like, well, why is it that my first reaction is, you know what, screw this.
00:44:35.100He was watching porn, and he was watching some very nasty porn that did not, let's just say, did not align with his, what he identified with sexually.
00:44:44.600He was watching it on his, you know, the computer, the family computer in the living room, and he has a five-year-old daughter.
00:44:54.840She and mom come back a little bit early, but our friend has his headphones on.
00:44:59.120So they come home, and he hears the wife coming in, so he kind of, like, tries to shut it down, and he gets up, and he just rushes to the door to block her away from seeing the screen.
00:45:18.920He goes in, carries the groceries, daughter runs in, and she runs straight to the computer because that's where he shows her cartoons or whatever.
00:45:30.160Wife flips, and his entire world comes crashing down because the daughter had to go to therapy, and she's still in therapy from what I last checked.
00:45:39.840His wife, they went through a really bad divorce with everything that involves, including the lawyers and everything, from that one incident because, Ryan, that was the first time she had ever caught him.
00:45:49.880You know, so that is fear, and many men have this fear.
00:45:53.240I asked clients when they get, I was like, could you leave your phone around your wife unprotected?
00:46:15.240What are some of the things that you have experienced as far as your clients go and men who are trying to overcome some of these addictions and urges that they are,
00:46:22.340or I don't know if preoccupying their attention, maybe that's the right term, but preoccupying their attention or doing instead of engaging in this behavior?
00:46:30.740Some of the behaviors, just to understand your question correctly, are saying some of the other things that they could be doing instead of engaging in behavior with pornography.
00:46:41.260There are a variety of things, and it does depend on the man.
00:46:45.080So, in terms of categories, I break down the men I work with with different ages.
00:46:50.400So, I work with men under 25, and I know it is generalizing, but I've just found that in terms of men's experience in life, it is easier to categorize them that way.
00:47:00.360For men under 25, I let them know that one of the most important things for them is improving their skills, or rather, building skills.
00:47:08.860And I personally believe that in your early 20s, a great amount of your time should be spent on a skill.
00:47:17.860I personally sold books door-to-door, and I spent almost my entire early to mid-20s working about 70, 80 hours a week, I believe in hard work, because my body could take it and my mind could take it.
00:47:32.720And I said, if you have way too much time on your hands, there's nothing wrong with playing video games, having sex, having fun, then you have a problem.
00:47:40.660So, I usually break down men's schedule when it comes to that.
00:47:44.460Also, for men who are under the age of 25, there usually isn't anything wrong with them masturbating.
00:47:53.180So, when it becomes compulsive and they've set up some solid boundaries, they're usually good to go.
00:47:58.120Now, men who are older, who are in their 30s, who have families, specifically in their early 30s, they are usually medicating something with their porn use.
00:48:11.260Earlier on, it was just a compulsive behavior.
00:49:55.660And it's a very quick, effective way of dissociating from that specific urge, which can be very overwhelming for some men, especially those who have a very high sex drive, going like, why do you want to do it?
00:50:07.820And sometimes you create Dark Ryan might just be like, because you haven't resolved the pain from this terrible thing that happened in your childhood.
00:50:15.740And you're like, dude, I just thought I was horny.
00:50:21.360I mean, if you look deeper, it might go, like you said, a lot deeper than what you're initially seeing.
00:50:25.660Yeah, I would love, Ryan, for it to be as simple as, oh, I tell my clients, like, dude, just go take a walk and calm down.
00:50:34.480And I know there are a lot of systems out there that do that.
00:50:37.900But I've realized, especially for the type of men I work with, that very strong urges for things that are natural to us are always a wonderful opportunity for us to become aware of ourselves.
00:50:50.520And awareness is the first step, because once you are aware and you know the root of it, it usually causes the urge to actually pass faster.
00:51:00.180So when you just realize that, oh, I'm only doing it because, you know, I really don't like my boss or that guy in middle management who tells me to do tasks, you're like, oh, that was a dumb reason.
00:51:33.080But, you know, for the sake of time, certainly I think we've covered a lot.
00:51:35.840And I think we've given the guys something to consider, you know, when it comes to pornography and masturbation and whether or not it's something they should engage.
00:51:42.500I mean, ultimately, they have to make their own decisions.
00:51:44.080But I think it's I think deep down we all know that there is some negative consequences that come with this behavior.
00:51:53.380And I think we're skimming the surface.
00:51:55.060But I would definitely direct them to you because you've done a lot of work in this area.
00:52:07.040And I'm also I also want to let everybody who is listening know that I welcome the controversy and I agree that it is not a black or white issue.
00:52:16.680There are conversations to be had about that.
00:52:18.860And I urge everyone to just be aware of one thing.
00:52:26.480And no one should try to repress it or tell you that it is bad in any way.
00:52:31.760However, with every aspect of our nature, both the violent aspects of us, both the nonviolent aspects of our nature, I feel that all men should be able to exercise a certain degree of self-control.
00:52:45.880And if you feel that you do not have that self-control and discipline around your natural biological behavior, then there's no shame in seeking help.
00:52:54.580Well, and I would also add that if in this area you're not able to exercise self-control, then you've got to ask yourself, what other areas of your life is this manifesting itself?
00:53:03.640And could you develop the ability to control those urges in this aspect of life?
00:53:09.300Where else could you do it in your life that would prove and enhance what it is you're doing and what you want to accomplish?
00:53:14.960Yeah, I'm not going to say anything much on that because I would just launch into a whole nother area.
00:53:32.180Well, hey, JK, as we wind down, I do want to ask you the question I prepared you for a little bit, which was, what does it mean to be a man?
00:53:40.140Being a man for me means having an overarching mission to your entire life and in the process, building up your values and finally awareness.
00:54:34.940I think this is a good thing that you're doing for men.
00:54:36.880An honor to have you on and talk about some of this today, which is obviously a sensitive subject and one that's not always a comfortable conversation to have.
00:54:44.640But these are the best types of conversations for sure.
00:54:47.100Yeah, Ryan, I do appreciate your work as well, and I'm so glad that you gave me the opportunity to come on here and share what I do.
00:54:59.560A very powerful and, frankly, somewhat awkward, although it is important that we address these relevant issues that a lot of men are dealing with.
00:55:10.900If you are dealing with an addiction to pornography or masturbation or anything with regards to some of these sexual compulsive type disorders, then I would definitely encourage you to reach out to JK.