Order of Man - December 11, 2018


How Porn Erodes and Undermines Masculinity ｜ J.K EMEZI

Topics
porn-induced erectile dysfunction environment men's biochemistry
Hosted by
Ryan Michler
Mentioned
Jack Ryan George Collins Jocko Willink Andy Frisilla Grant Cardone Ryan Mickler J.K. Amazey Tim Kennedy Super Krill Leif Babin Rory Vaden JK Amazie Peter Pan Snapchat Mary
Buy Windshield Wipers Before it Rains ｜ FRIDAY FIELD NOTES A Father's Role, Appreciating the Grind, and Overcoming Past Regrets ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING

Episode Stats


Length

56 minutes

Words per minute

192.62

Word count

10,909

Sentence count

732

Harmful content

Misogyny

7

sentences flagged

Toxicity

42

sentences flagged

Hate speech

9

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

J.K. Amazey makes the case for why we ought to engage in pornography and masturbating less, how to overcome the urge to participate in these activities, and how porn erodes and undermines masculinity in a society that seems to be increasingly forgetful regarding what it means to be a man.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Pornography is something that all men have likely engaged in to some degree, but what's fascinating is the debate that ensues whenever someone suggests that pornography is not good for men.
00:00:11.640 My guest today, J.K. Amazey, makes the case for why we ought to engage in pornography and masturbating less, how to overcome the urge to participate in these activities, how the temptation is only likely to get worse, and how porn erodes and undermines masculinity.
00:00:27.380 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:00:52.340 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast, The Order of Man. Whether you're new or you've been a long-time listener, I'm glad you're tuning in.
00:01:01.860 I'm glad you're implementing some of the information we're talking about. I'm glad you're following in and having the conversations that we're having with regards to reclaiming and restoring what it means to be a man in a society that seems to be increasingly forgetful regarding what it is that it means to be a man and what our role is of protector, provider, and presider.
00:01:20.520 Guys, it's my job each and every week to have these conversations with some incredible men. Today is no different. And we've had other guys on like Jocko Willink and Andy Frisilla and Grant Cardone and Tim Kennedy and Leif Babin and Dakota Meyer. I could go on and on. I won't, but I could.
00:01:36.460 We've got an amazing list of men who have joined in this movement, who have imparted some of their wisdom, and I'm glad, again, that you're here. So make sure you subscribe. Make sure you rate and review the show. We need to get this into the minds and ears of more men, and we do that by your sharing.
00:01:53.460 This is a grassroots movement. I don't spend a whole lot of money, time, and tension on buying ads and promoting it that way. We really, really rely upon you sharing this with your brothers, your fathers, your friends, your colleagues, your coworkers, and those of you who have. I really appreciate that. And those of you who have not yet done that, please, I would ask humbly that you go ahead and take care of that.
00:02:12.720 Guys, we've got a good one lined up for you today, kind of a controversial subject, which I don't really think it should be, but it is nonetheless. So we'll get into that here in a minute.
00:02:22.440 Before I do want to make a mention of my friends over at Origin, Maine, you've been hearing me talk about them for, oh, I don't know, two or three months now. And there's a reason, there's a reason I talk about these guys. And there's a reason I don't talk a whole lot about other people or other organizations, any company that I'm going to mention.
00:02:38.060 And I want to ensure that I know who they are, that I know what kind of business they're running, and that I know that their products and services and offerings are actually going to help you become a better man. That is my ultimate objective here. And I've certainly found that with, again, my friends over at Origin. They've got geese and rash guards for Brazilian jujitsu, and they've got lifestyle apparel. But the thing that seems to be most interesting to you and me as well is their supplemental lineup.
00:03:03.280 It's the Joint Warfare. It's the Discipline. It's Super Krill. It's Discipline Go. It's the Malk Protein Shake. It's all of that stuff. And guys, I've got a discount for you if you use the code ORDER, O-R-D-E-R, at checkout, at originmain.com.
00:03:20.260 So go check it out. I know you guys are interested in this stuff. I know that there's gifts that you're thinking about giving as we get into the holiday season and Christmas season. So head over to originmain.com, originmain.com, and use the code ORDER, O-R-D-E-R, at checkout.
00:03:37.100 All right. Go take care of that after the show, guys. Let's tune into this one. Again, my guest today, his name is JK Amazie. He is a sex and pornography addiction coach, which I know a lot of men out there are dealing with this. He's been in the business, in the industry for the last nine years, and he helps guys overcome porn, masturbation, some of these other sexual compulsive disorders.
00:03:57.340 And guys, this is a very fascinating discussion with someone who is well-qualified and well-versed to talk about the sexual issues that a lot of men deal with. So he's written for our site before. A lot of you guys might be familiar with it. And one of his articles happens to be one of our most controversial to date because he covers a topic that a lot of men, frankly, just aren't comfortable discussing. I understand why. And one that remains very polarizing to a lot of guys as well. So that's what this is about.
00:04:25.560 So tune in, take some notes. If you need to share this, if you know anybody who may need to hear it, it is definitely a conversation that I had been asked about. And I'm glad to bring this conversation with JK to you guys.
00:04:38.020 JK, what's up, man? Thanks for joining me on the show today.
00:04:40.200 Hey, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
00:04:42.580 We've been connected for a couple of years now, and you did an article for us. Gosh, it must've been a year, maybe a year and a half ago on the damages of pornography, which was polarizing. We'll call it that.
00:04:54.960 It was polarizing, which is amazing to me. I don't, I don't think it's all that polarizing, but it seems to be that the subject of pornography and masturbation is. Do you find that to be the case? 0.76
00:05:04.840 Was it polarizing on your blog?
00:05:07.740 Yes, it was.
00:05:09.280 Really?
00:05:09.960 Yeah.
00:05:10.160 Okay. I wasn't aware of that. I did not know that.
00:05:12.680 Yeah. It was kind of interesting that, and anytime the subject of pornography is broached within our Facebook group, there's polar ends of, of, and opposite ends of the extreme.
00:05:25.160 It's either somebody's like, no, it's bad. Don't do it all. Or it's just not a big deal. And nobody sees the problem with it. There's no middle ground or anything. It's just, it's just really, really interesting to see.
00:05:34.100 I see a lot of destruction that comes from it. And I think there's a lot of guys who either don't see that or refuse to see that maybe, or I don't know, we can hash this out today.
00:05:42.860 Yeah. I hope we can do that. I definitely agree that it is polarizing. And as somebody who literally, this is all I do. It is basically my path and my mission.
00:05:52.780 And I've become quite adept at answering the questions that come with that. But I wasn't aware it was like that on your blog. Actually, it was funny because a lot of really amazing men reached out to me after I wrote that blog post and just started sharing their stories.
00:06:07.340 And I was like, where did you come from? And they're like, dude, I read your article, An Order of Man. And I was like, this is true. I never thought of it that way.
00:06:12.880 There's a lot of great discussion, but I found that the most of the discussions that we have in the Facebook group, well, it's a bunch of men who are strong-willed, right?
00:06:22.320 And so we agree mostly, I think. Obviously, that makes sense because they're attracted to what it is. We're doing the message we're sharing. But anytime there's a disagreement, it's an adamant disagreement. It's not, hey, let's have an open dialogue about this. It's like polar opposites. It's crazy to me. It's absolutely crazy.
00:06:38.220 Well, I guess let's start the framework for the discussion like this. On the surface, what is the initial problems that you have identified that you see with pornography? And then I think we can get a little deeper and hash some of this stuff out.
00:06:52.320 That's a fantastic question. I could list out a lot of different problems, but there are about four or five main problems that I've discovered that are painful enough for men that leads them to actually seek help from porn.
00:07:07.140 And the first one is actually what happens with their values. And before that, actually, Ryan, I'd like to preface this with saying that men who choose to quit their behavior with pornography only do so for three reasons.
00:07:20.960 The first is love. The second is duty. And the third is fear. Some of the things that happen, I think that the most emasculating would be porn-induced erectile dysfunction, which simply means that you've watched pornography to the point that your brain has rewired itself to be only aroused by material, which is pornographic in nature and in many cases is extreme in nature.
00:07:44.400 And it's just things that you wouldn't even talk about with your partner, which your wife. These are fantasies that you would much rather keep hidden.
00:07:52.280 That's emasculating when it doesn't work and when you're not able to have sex because you need to be stimulated by something artificial.
00:08:01.580 Another one would be the isolation and the shame that comes with it.
00:08:04.900 Now, many men don't talk about it, and I'm sure many men listening to this can relate because I know that many treatment professionals out there do not bring this up because it is very, very controversial.
00:08:15.900 But that is the shame that comes from acting out.
00:08:19.360 What I've noticed, particularly in the last two to three years, is more and more men acting out their fantasies.
00:08:26.740 I'm not saying that they become sex addicts, but they have actually started taking steps in real life to fulfill what they see.
00:08:35.560 And oftentimes, whatever steps they take end up in shame.
00:08:39.420 That shame is not great for any aspect of your life, particularly the way you identify as a man.
00:08:47.220 We can hop into that a little bit later because I'll be happy to do it.
00:08:50.880 And the final thing is what porn does to your goals and your ability to achieve different things.
00:08:58.420 So most men complain a lot about when they reach out to me, they're like, JK, I know I've been watching porn. 0.83
00:09:04.760 I've masturbated to the point that I'm sexually satiated. 0.99
00:09:08.940 I will masturbate and I watch pornography. 1.00
00:09:11.280 And for two to three weeks, I have zero interest in sex. 0.99
00:09:14.420 And then after a couple of weeks or a couple of days, then I feel like going for it again.
00:09:20.860 But JK, I have no motivation to do anything once I'm sexually satiated.
00:09:25.320 I have no motivation to work.
00:09:27.680 I love going to the gym, dude.
00:09:29.200 I love working out, but I don't feel like doing it anymore.
00:09:32.480 I don't want to have sex. 0.57
00:09:33.560 I just don't want to do anything.
00:09:34.760 And what this does for older men, and when I say older, I specifically mean men who are in their mid-30s onwards, is that it becomes a liability to their career.
00:09:47.720 And for younger men, it takes away their ability to actually build skills that are marketable.
00:09:54.360 And it takes away the drive that they need, particularly in their 20s, to build a strong financial foundation.
00:10:01.800 Let me butt in here because I want to talk about the other side. 0.87
00:10:04.660 If you're talking about men being sexually satiated because of pornography and masturbation, do we not experience the same thing when we engage in the act of natural sex? 0.60
00:10:16.580 Is there a difference between the two when it comes to external motivation and drive to exceed in a career, for example?
00:10:25.500 Yes, there actually is.
00:10:26.720 And you just jumped straight into the minefield when it comes to this issue.
00:10:33.040 Hey, we've only got a limited time.
00:10:34.340 We've got to get right into this thing, man.
00:10:35.620 Yeah, yeah.
00:10:36.100 I love it.
00:10:36.660 I love the fact that you went straight for that because every time I put out an article or a video, this is where it's a war zone in the comments.
00:10:43.660 Like two years later, I come back, why are you guys still fighting here?
00:10:46.900 Yeah, yeah.
00:10:47.760 No, I mean, I think these are the important topics that we need to address.
00:10:50.340 And I'm sure that these are the conversations and the questions that guys listening are going to have.
00:10:54.440 Yeah, definitely, definitely.
00:10:56.140 One of the important things, again, to preface this, is that I never say anything that cannot be backed by studies.
00:11:02.100 And there are studies for everything.
00:11:03.860 But one of the things I want to make clear to the listeners is that if necessary, I will provide the studies so that they just don't think I'm a guy running his mouth.
00:11:10.900 One of the first things when it comes to sexual satiation that I've noticed and studies have proven and I've noticed in my practice is that when you have sex with a woman, more often than not, there are certain neurotransmitters and certain hormones.
00:11:26.100 Neurotransmitters are simply brain chemicals and certain hormones that are released.
00:11:30.020 And not all the same hormones are released when you masturbate.
00:11:34.660 One key hormone that is not released when you masturbate is oxytocin.
00:11:38.700 And oxytocin, you may be familiar with it, is a bonding chemical.
00:11:42.660 And a certain level of endorphins, which are released during sex, are not released and do not remain in your system for as long when you masturbate.
00:11:53.260 So there is a biochemical reaction that takes place when you masturbate and a separate one when you have sex.
00:12:00.640 And each of them carries on throughout your day.
00:12:03.480 So your biochemistry, for instance, one of the things I tell my clients is how you start your day and how you go through your day is very, very important.
00:12:10.260 I've told them this for years.
00:12:11.920 But when you masturbate and when you have sex and even when you do that has an impact on you because of the biochemical nature of each of these acts. 0.91
00:12:21.620 So, yes, when you masturbate, most guys can even notice it by doing it.
00:12:26.620 You literally most of the time do not have energy to continue anything you're doing. 0.89
00:12:30.920 Now, when you have sex and let's say it's a busy day, for instance, and you have sex in the middle of the day, if you're one of those people who's fortunate enough to work from home.
00:12:39.440 Yeah, you may lay in bed for a little bit. 0.93
00:12:41.640 You may feel a slight urge to masturbate a few hours later. 0.95
00:12:44.700 But by and large, you're going to get back to work and you're going to feel great. 0.97
00:12:47.180 Why do you feel great?
00:12:48.200 Because you connected with somebody else. 0.92
00:12:49.820 Because you had sex. 0.99
00:12:50.700 It was amazing sex. 0.99
00:12:51.640 It was great sex or not great sex, but it was sex. 0.98
00:12:54.300 But when you masturbate in the middle of the day and any guy who's listening to this who works from home or even at an office and, you know, hops into the bathroom to rub one out, knows for a fact that they are a lot more irritable if they were having a particularly stressful day. 0.97
00:13:11.680 While they may have masturbated in order to feel better about themselves, they actually find themselves getting more stressed. 0.89
00:13:16.700 If there are any specific strong emotions that they're susceptible to, and for many men who struggle with this, the primary emotion is anger, they find themselves more angry throughout the day.
00:13:27.380 And if we go to even an emotional level, masturbation versus having sex, when you masturbate, there is a higher chance that you are going to feel lonely.
00:13:37.720 There is going to feel that loneliness or need for intimacy after you've had sex, especially with somebody that you trust and you love or you're in a committed relationship with. 0.53
00:13:58.280 Yeah, I mean, this is really fascinating.
00:14:00.880 I'm just wondering if the reason it is, and maybe again, I'm generalizing here too, is because you're participating in the act of sex in a way, except for you actually didn't complete the objective, which would be to procreate and to connect with a woman.
00:14:17.920 You know, I've thought about that as well, and I find that these are, this specific area, and why I said you're wandering straight into a, you're leading us rather, into a minefield, is because no one has been able to give a very definitive answer.
00:14:34.480 What the research shows is that biochemically, that's what's happening.
00:14:38.960 But I really do think that that's a very fascinating way to bring it up.
00:14:42.500 And you're saying that you think that maybe it's perhaps because we did not complete what we were supposed to do, which was ejaculate into a woman and fulfill what we are supposed to do biologically.
00:14:53.380 And when you don't do it, your brain is like, hey, or your body is like, what are you doing?
00:14:58.360 To me, it almost seems like you're practicing for the big game, but then you never actually compete in the big game.
00:15:03.360 How long could you actually do that before you become dissatisfied with the practice itself?
00:15:07.980 That's a good question. 0.93
00:15:09.640 The funny thing is that you do not become dissatisfied with the process when you're masturbating. 0.95
00:15:18.680 It's funny and it's sad at the same time.
00:15:20.760 You actually become addicted to the chemicals that you're releasing.
00:15:25.740 So you would think that we become dissatisfied, and the truth is some men do.
00:15:30.940 But the reason why we're even having this conversation is because, Ryan, you and I know, you know from your community that,
00:15:37.980 some men don't, they don't get dissatisfied.
00:15:40.560 They just keep doing it.
00:15:42.200 Yeah, but I also think like any addiction, that it's probably capable for somebody to be dissatisfied with an engagement in that addiction,
00:15:51.440 and yet still have the desire to participate in it, even though they know that it's destructive for them.
00:15:58.400 Yeah, certainly.
00:15:59.200 Yeah.
00:15:59.460 When you put it that way, of course, yes.
00:16:01.240 Because many men don't want to do it, and of course, it's compulsive, which means that you're unable to control it.
00:16:06.560 So the many things that are happening in your life are not satisfactory situations, and you're not able to do anything about it.
00:16:13.160 Yeah, that makes sense.
00:16:14.000 How do you control those urges then?
00:16:16.740 You know, and I know we'll get into a little bit more about where this comes from in the biology and all of that stuff that comes with the desire to watch pornography, which, I mean, it makes sense.
00:16:25.840 I mean, we're attracted to women, their bodies, obviously. 1.00
00:16:28.940 A woman's body is designed to be attracted to for a man. 1.00
00:16:31.820 That makes sense.
00:16:33.260 This is true.
00:16:33.860 So it's a difficult thing to even broach because it is natural for a man to be physically attracted to a woman.
00:16:41.860 So it's such a difficult – like you said, it's like this minefield of like, it's good, but it's not good, and it's right, and it's natural, but then you shouldn't do it.
00:16:50.660 And so it's like hard to really understand how this is going to serve us well or hinder us from accomplishing what we want to accomplish.
00:16:59.660 To make it clear, because I vacillate when I'm saying that, it's simply because I never want a man to be listening to what I'm saying or watching a video or reading an article and get the impression that it is black or white.
00:17:14.820 And many men, as you said, especially men who are strong-willed men, for men who are more masculine, it is a black and white thing.
00:17:22.520 So we tend to do that.
00:17:23.680 Oh, yeah.
00:17:24.260 Oh, no.
00:17:25.120 And there's nothing wrong with that.
00:17:26.220 It's just how some men are wired.
00:17:27.760 I will say this very clearly, that I personally, and professionally actually, do not find anything wrong with the biological act of masturbation. 0.63
00:17:38.240 I think it is absolutely fine.
00:17:39.980 Nor do I find anything wrong with pornography itself.
00:17:43.900 However, I do have a problem with two specific things.
00:17:47.040 The first is high-speed internet pornography.
00:17:51.560 And that is where the problem comes in.
00:17:53.260 Because when pornography was available for decades and decades, and actually millennia, it had never been a problem to the point that it came to the forefront of our society or culture.
00:18:06.220 It is high-speed internet that just exposed us.
00:18:09.320 So men who watch it now have 15 tabs open, going from tab to tab, looking for the one, like a little monkey, looking for the one that is going to, the shot that's going to get them off.
00:18:20.860 That is creating new neural pathways in your brain.
00:18:24.000 So you're saying it's the quantity and the exposure that's the problem, not the pornography itself?
00:18:28.260 Exactly.
00:18:29.520 It is the quantity.
00:18:31.120 It is the exposure.
00:18:32.680 And when we talk about not the type of pornography itself, we have to understand that one doesn't come without the other.
00:18:38.300 It is because of the quantity and the exposure that there is now a need for more and more hardcore pornography because we are searching for novelty.
00:18:46.800 We need more and more novel stuff because if we expose – if a man exposes himself in literally one sitting, a man can expose himself in, let's say, an hour and a half of watching high-speed internet pornography to more naked women and more sex than all his ancestors from his grandfather up had ever exposed themselves to in their lifetime, which is insane.
00:19:12.100 And that is why there is more explicit pornography.
00:19:15.380 Yeah, I mean this is interesting and it's only going to manifest itself even more so.
00:19:19.420 I mean we have things like virtual reality, which is going to create more of this.
00:19:24.540 We also have sex robots, which is going to create more and more of this.
00:19:28.200 I mean this is only going to exponentially increase the quantity and quality of the access to, well, naked women, frankly. 1.00
00:19:37.300 Yeah, and don't forget the sex bot brothels that are now popping up, which I think is an interesting concept.
00:19:43.180 But as far as it comes to our values, our culture, who we are, I feel that it's going to be so destructive.
00:19:52.680 And I have a hopeful outlook, Ryan, when it comes to us saving ourselves.
00:19:59.280 And when I say saving ourselves, I literally mean the individual man raising his awareness and saving himself and his family.
00:20:07.340 Saving from what?
00:20:08.120 How would you define that?
00:20:09.180 So if a man says, I'm going to disengage from pornography and masturbation, what is it that he's saving himself from? 0.96
00:20:15.240 It's not about disengaging from pornography and masturbation.
00:20:18.860 It is more about awareness, first of all, of certain things in our culture we are exposed to that are going to change our values if we're exposed to it.
00:20:30.120 So, for instance, if a man just says, like, you know what, I don't have a problem with pornography, I'm cool with watching it.
00:20:36.200 Well, he's choosing to expose himself to something that once he is watching porn, once he is engaged in that behavior, that is already altering his neural pathways, whether he likes it or not.
00:20:47.760 As far as I'm concerned, while there are some men who are not susceptible to addiction, and I've met these men, the vast majority of men, it is only a matter of time before it affects their relationship in one way or the other.
00:21:01.000 I'll use myself as an example since I'm speaking.
00:21:03.480 I personally do not watch pornography, and I also do not choose to masturbate.
00:21:08.800 I'm in a relationship, and I have disciplined myself that if I want to have sexual release, then it is going to be with my partner.
00:21:16.660 Now, some may see that as extreme, but I know plenty of men who live that way, and it's fine. 0.96
00:21:22.080 There are also men who are just like, I choose to not watch pornography at all in any form, and I choose only to masturbate and, you know, have sex. 0.62
00:21:32.160 And then there are yet other men who say, if I watch pornography, it's only going to be with my partner.
00:21:36.860 But as we're doing it on a regular basis as a form of entertainment, that is absolutely destructive in the long run.
00:21:44.500 And it's the man who chooses to understand the dangers of exposing it to himself will quite naturally come to the conclusion that watching it is doing him no good.
00:21:54.020 I cannot see any benefit.
00:21:55.520 I would love to be in a debate with somebody where they would tell me the benefits of pornography, especially high-speed internet pornography.
00:22:01.180 Well, I'm sure just because you said that, you're going to get plenty of comments from people who are going to give you a whole broad array of reasons that they can think of that would actually benefit their lives, and some may be less valid than others, certainly.
00:22:17.060 Yeah, yeah.
00:22:17.700 Oh, I welcome it.
00:22:18.820 It's absolutely fine.
00:22:20.240 I mean, in certain fields, you just have to be able to defend it and prove it if it's something that you feel is detrimental.
00:22:26.540 That's true.
00:22:27.500 I'm actually trying to think of a reason it would be beneficial itself, and the only thing that I can possibly come up with is that maybe it's some sort of stress relief, I guess, is the only thing that I can think of.
00:22:39.700 That's not something that I've researched necessarily, but that's on the surface something that I could possibly think that somebody might say.
00:22:46.160 I hear that a lot, so I'll give you a very typical example.
00:22:50.580 First of all, I'm saying all of this under the assumption that we are speaking to a very specific type of man who is your audience, who are aligned with your mission or some of your values.
00:23:01.800 And if a man comes to me and says, you know what, JK, I just wanted to talk to you because everything else in my life is fine.
00:23:09.180 My life is not falling apart because of my porn use.
00:23:12.280 However, I notice that every time I feel extremely overwhelmed with my work, I use pornography, and it's becoming compulsive.
00:23:20.520 It's compulsive because when I'm at work, I feel like I suddenly need to watch pornography, and it's risky.
00:23:25.420 I feel like I need to go to the bathroom and watch porn on my phone, and this is at work, and very, very common.
00:23:31.480 A lot of porn is watched in America's workplaces. 0.52
00:23:36.340 That's actually what most employees are doing.
00:23:39.560 JK, what can I do?
00:23:40.640 I was like, all you need to do is learn coping skills if you feel it is compulsive.
00:23:45.140 And when I look into the man's life, I quickly find out there's often something more than stress, right?
00:23:51.120 Sometimes there are strong emotions.
00:23:52.940 Sometimes there's some kind of biochemical issue, and it's very simple.
00:23:58.400 What's the biochemical issue?
00:23:59.800 Most of the time, it's just that.
00:24:02.160 And as simple as it sounds, it is as simple as men going to bed with their phones, looking at the phone, eventually watching pornography and going to bed late. 0.59
00:24:12.940 That happens so often, and we literally have an entire community where we have run polls and found out that that is one of the most common reasons why men are stressed out the next day at work and they keep masturbating.
00:24:25.040 Stress can be dealt with with a variety of coping skills.
00:24:27.720 It does not have to be pornography.
00:24:28.940 So in this case, basically what you're saying is put the phone away, go to bed.
00:24:32.580 Put the phone away, go to bed, and think about it.
00:24:34.540 You are literally relieving your stress by watching two human beings having sex. 0.63
00:24:40.400 Like, think of this if we disconnect and just look at it.
00:24:44.340 Yeah, look at it objectively, right?
00:24:45.520 Yeah, with civilized men handling stress, what were our ancestors doing when they were stressed?
00:24:54.020 They weren't like, hey, you know, Jim and Mary, let's go peep and see what they're doing.
00:24:58.820 You know, the bushes, they weren't doing that to release. 0.96
00:25:01.740 It's ridiculous.
00:25:04.120 Yeah, no, this makes sense. 0.96
00:25:06.140 So what would you then suggest as some of these coping mechanisms or even strategies to resist the urge, especially for somebody who is trying to overcome a potential addiction to pornography and masturbation?
00:25:19.420 That's a great question.
00:25:20.240 The first thing I tell men is accept the urge.
00:25:23.920 That's the first thing.
00:25:25.300 Whenever you fight the urge, it makes it worse.
00:25:28.920 And I like to use the analogy that I heard from a speaker called Rory Vaden, where he talked about these planes or somewhere he lived out, I think maybe it was in Montana, and there were cattle and buffalo.
00:25:40.360 And whenever a storm would come through these planes, the cattle would run away from the storm.
00:25:47.460 They'd just keep running.
00:25:48.740 And these suckers would end up running with the storm, exposing themselves to the maximum amount of damage from the storm.
00:25:55.760 The buffalo, which had lived on that plane for thousands of years, would actually run towards the storm, and they would run through it, thereby minimizing the amount of damage that they got from the storm.
00:26:06.700 In fact, they were spending much less time in it.
00:26:08.700 And I tell men, first of all, accept the urge and don't fight it.
00:26:13.320 That is the first step.
00:26:14.920 Hold up, JK.
00:26:15.560 Before we move on, I want to wrap my head around this.
00:26:17.840 How do you accept the urge?
00:26:19.320 I mean, you recognize that it's there, but what does that actually look like in practicality?
00:26:26.420 What does the awareness look like, you mean?
00:26:29.100 Right, because in the example that you gave me, there was a very active strategy to accept the urge.
00:26:33.780 But in this case, it's like, okay, so I accept.
00:26:36.700 Is it just simply recognizing that, okay, yeah, I have the urge to do it and being aware of it?
00:26:40.680 Is that the step that you're actually trying to accomplish here?
00:26:43.080 That would be what a, I would call it like a lay person who is just trying to deal with the urge on their own.
00:26:50.640 So basically, you're saying, hey, I'm aware that something is happening and that I have this urge to engage in this behavior.
00:26:57.700 Yeah, the reason why I'm saying it, Ryan, is because a man who is listening to this and who is going like, you know what?
00:27:02.420 I have very strong urges and I do have an out-of-control behavior with pornography.
00:27:06.900 What they usually try to do, what most men try to do, is they try to use willpower to stop. 0.89
00:27:12.720 And you're not going to control something as powerful as our sexual urges with your willpower.
00:27:19.440 So what most men end up doing is they still end up trying to use their willpower and that doesn't work.
00:27:25.520 So instead of acknowledging the urge first, they immediately try to fight it.
00:27:30.160 That's the first thing.
00:27:30.960 No, no, no, I'm not going to do this.
00:27:32.780 I give an example of an exercise that I typically give my clients.
00:27:36.300 And this is also part of some of the free exercises I have out there, which is actually a feelings exercise.
00:27:41.140 So feelings exercise, I say, when you wake up in the morning and if you have a morning routine and you're struggling with porn, one of the first things I suggest you do is write two lines down.
00:27:51.020 And the first line, first thing in the morning after you use the bathroom is, I feel, and you write down the emotion you feel that morning.
00:27:57.660 It could be anxiety about the upcoming meeting that I have today.
00:28:02.040 And right under it, you write, I first remember feeling anxious when, and then you go back as far as you can in your history to identify the first time you felt that way.
00:28:14.980 And you do that three times every morning.
00:28:17.040 Now, what that does after about two weeks is that it helps you to increase your awareness.
00:28:22.760 Professionals tell people to meditate, but it's not for everyone.
00:28:25.240 And I found this is a very practical way of increasing your awareness.
00:28:28.920 So what does this have to do with your urges?
00:28:30.880 Well, later on in the day, as you practice this, you become aware of the emotion that precedes the urge.
00:28:39.180 Because, Ryan, anybody who struggles with an out-of-control sexual behavior or out-of-control behavior in masturbation or pornography experiences an emotion prior to the urge.
00:28:50.760 But if they are not self-aware, they just think they're horny.
00:28:53.660 What are the emotions usually that your clients are usually experiencing or feeling when they have this urge?
00:28:59.040 They vary, but the most common ones are, first of all, anger and frustration.
00:29:03.840 A close third would be anxiety.
00:29:06.400 And there's a low-level anxiety about worrying about what other people, which usually comes from worrying about what other people will think about them in a certain situation or the ramifications of something that hasn't happened already.
00:29:18.080 And so when they're anxious and they remain in this anxious position for quite a while, one of the ways to relieve it is by releasing dopamine.
00:29:26.280 And so it's quite easy to just watch some pornography, get your mind off it, release some massive amounts of dopamine into your body.
00:29:33.340 Yeah, that makes sense.
00:29:34.060 And feel good.
00:29:34.860 If you can be aware of that emotion and you can catch the emotion, I'm not saying you're going to stop watching pornography immediately.
00:29:42.200 You're going to catch yourself.
00:29:43.440 It's going to be an exercise you do today and it works.
00:29:45.580 No, but you will notice immediately that, and you'd probably still watch porn at first if you tried it, but you would notice that, oh, okay.
00:29:53.880 So in the middle of the day, around two o'clock in the afternoon, I get a little tired and I'm more prone to be anxious about something that's happening later.
00:30:01.560 Or in the evening, when I come home and the kids are running about and my wife is a little bit stressed out because she had a wrong day and she feels like I'm not helping with anything, I may get a little angry.
00:30:14.980 And right after that anger, automatically, there's just something happening in my brain.
00:30:20.200 There's a neural pathway that's connected to it. 0.91
00:30:22.220 Immediately, I'm like, oh, I need to watch porn.
00:30:25.200 And I'm starting to become aware of it.
00:30:27.300 And I don't know your other steps here, but I'm assuming it will naturally move you into the next steps, which is, okay, now we can start having new outlets or courses of action for the urges that we experience and are aware of now.
00:30:39.560 Of course, yeah.
00:30:40.420 So there is a process to that.
00:30:42.140 But for anybody who just wanted to start, the first thing would be don't try to control your urges with willpower.
00:30:47.780 You cannot control something like that.
00:30:49.300 You're only going to end up repressing it and acting out.
00:30:53.460 And when we say acting out, it's actually done binging on pornography for longer than you wanted to.
00:30:58.200 Well, because I imagine you're just compounding the emotion, right?
00:31:01.680 You're compounding the anger, you're compounding the frustration or whatever it may be that's actually causing the urge in the first place.
00:31:09.320 Yeah.
00:31:09.620 And then chances are you end up watching even more violent, disturbing porn than you would have on a day that you just went ahead and did what you had to do.
00:31:17.480 So I tell guys, they're like, well, do I need to stop watching porn if I work?
00:31:21.540 I'm like, no, like when you first start, it's okay.
00:31:25.440 Masturbate, do what you want to do, but become aware first because you need to know what is fueling your problem.
00:31:32.600 Because if you use any other method or you go out there and you just want to stop the behavior without knowing the origins of that behavior for you, then you're susceptible to end up blaming anything for your porn use.
00:31:45.160 You could just say, oh, it's religion.
00:31:47.000 It's just how I'm wired.
00:31:48.580 No, there's always an emotion that comes first.
00:31:50.720 Interesting.
00:31:51.420 All right.
00:31:51.640 What's step number two then?
00:31:52.980 Well, it really depends on the client.
00:31:54.900 One of the things that I advocate for most men, Ryan, is community and accountability.
00:32:00.360 It is very important because most men who specifically have a problem with pornography isolate.
00:32:05.840 One of the characteristics of porn use, compulsive porn use, is isolation because over past a particular age, usually when you become an adult, you're not watching porn with your buddies anymore.
00:32:16.520 You're watching it on your own.
00:32:17.820 When you isolate and you finish whatever business that you're doing with pornography, for most men, there's a feeling of guilt and shame that comes up.
00:32:27.460 One of the questions I get from men is, why is it that I feel some guilt and shame when I masturbate to pornography and what should I do?
00:32:35.180 And I tell them that the next step after awareness is accountability.
00:32:39.880 So if you can reach out to an accountability partner, to somebody else and let them know not about your urge, but about the emotion that you're experiencing, that accountability partner knows that, hey, this is a day where Jim is more likely to act out later on in the day.
00:32:57.400 So, for instance, Ryan, with my personal clients, if I'll give you an example of a client I'm working with right now, he has an issue with anxiety and he is prone to experience anxiety around the early afternoon.
00:33:09.480 So all he needs to do is hit me up, text me and just let me know that, hey, just so you know, I'm feeling very particularly anxious today.
00:33:18.120 And for him, finishing his day and coming home is a relief, but an extra relief from all the pent-up anxiety from today is watching pornography.
00:33:29.640 So I know there's a very high chance that he's going to act out and watch pornography the next day.
00:33:33.920 Sorry, that evening.
00:33:35.080 What I let him know is make sure that all your devices are locked down.
00:33:39.240 So we have accountability and then we have setting boundaries.
00:33:41.760 Most men who are completely out of control with this behavior and everything is beyond willpower are going to watch pornography anyway.
00:33:49.420 They're like, JK, I've tried this accountability thing, but I'm still watching pornography.
00:33:53.920 How do I stop myself from doing it?
00:33:55.920 Do I get rid of my smartphone?
00:33:57.560 What do I do?
00:33:58.580 And I tell them one of the easiest ways to start is by putting a filter on your devices, which is basically a filter that blocks pornographic material.
00:34:07.660 So even without accountability, if you cannot get an accountability partner on your own, you have something that's stopping you when you try to act out.
00:34:15.580 So what are you going to do if you can't watch porn and it's blocked on your phone and on your laptop?
00:34:20.620 You really have no choice.
00:34:21.860 You can do nothing and find a way to act out.
00:34:25.080 Right.
00:34:25.240 Or just go do something else.
00:34:26.440 Yeah.
00:34:26.980 And I think a lot of times it's just the path of loose resistance.
00:34:29.440 You know, if it's just right there on your phone, I mean, it's really easy to engage and it's very lazy in a way.
00:34:34.500 Here's how I address this situation.
00:34:36.120 Here's the immediate gratification answer to the equation and the problem that I'm experiencing.
00:34:41.160 But I think if you make that a more challenging path that you're probably take the easier path, which is I got to get up and go for a walk or go into the gym or have a conversation with my wife or whatever.
00:34:52.420 Fill in the blank.
00:34:53.500 Because that's easier than it is just to turn your phone on and go into your bedroom and do whatever it is you're doing.
00:34:58.980 Yeah, I absolutely agree.
00:35:00.560 So step number one, except your step number two is community, accountability, establishing boundaries.
00:35:06.260 Is it as simple as that?
00:35:07.580 Is there more to it than that?
00:35:08.920 No, there are more steps to it.
00:35:10.320 So there are four parts to it.
00:35:13.040 So there's community.
00:35:14.580 There is environment.
00:35:16.420 Now, environment literally means where you spend the majority of your time.
00:35:21.220 And for some men, I'll give you an example.
00:35:23.980 Some men live with roommates who have various addiction.
00:35:27.800 For instance, they live with roommates who have an internet addiction.
00:35:30.560 They live with roommates who have a porn addiction.
00:35:33.240 Some men at a certain age have kind of not really taken off in life.
00:35:37.760 And I think you even had a podcast on this on the Peter Pan thing.
00:35:40.800 I listened to that way back where a lot of these men also have a problem with pornography.
00:35:47.720 But the issue there for these men specifically is that if you're at a certain age and still living with your parents and you really haven't launched into the world yet, you are still dealing with any dysfunctions that your parents might have.
00:36:01.440 And that is another thing that's going to cause you to act out and to deal with your issues and to ignore the reality of your situation.
00:36:08.320 So I always tell men the environment has to change.
00:36:11.340 Some men are in places where there's so much technology and no accountability.
00:36:15.860 Nobody cares how you use your devices.
00:36:17.940 So they keep doing that.
00:36:19.660 Another aspect is trauma work.
00:36:21.520 So there actually are four things.
00:36:22.820 The first was community.
00:36:24.000 The second is environment.
00:36:25.280 The third is trauma work.
00:36:26.620 And trauma work are for those men who actually experienced abuse, abandonment, or neglect at some point in their life.
00:36:35.340 So for men who, for instance, were physically abused and never addressed that, or for men who were sexually abused, or men who were neglected or abandoned by their parents, just to be very specific, it wasn't as if like you were left at home alone.
00:36:49.740 Maybe your parents just, let's say for school or with your clothing, just didn't make sure that you were well taken care of with the clothes you wore.
00:36:58.760 It could be something as little as that.
00:37:00.360 And those are deeper issues.
00:37:02.240 Usually with men like that, when I work with them, I work on the other areas that they need to work on.
00:37:07.360 And for their trauma work, I refer them to a licensed sex addiction therapist who helps them with the past, the issues from their past.
00:37:15.200 And the final one is men's biochemistry.
00:37:18.220 This goes all the way to testosterone.
00:37:20.640 A good portion of the men I work with, more than 50%, they just speak to me, ask them a few questions over the period of an hour.
00:37:27.200 I'm like, man, go get your testosterone levels checked.
00:37:30.620 Because there are some men who, they actually are unable to have sex with their partner, they feel depressed, and then they read somewhere or hear somewhere about all the effects of pornography addiction and masturbation addiction, and they think it applies to them.
00:37:45.000 When in reality, their testosterone levels are in the toilets.
00:37:48.760 And that's a biochemical issue where the only way they can actually ejaculate and experience sexual pleasure when they have low testosterone is by exposing themselves over and over to pornography.
00:37:59.700 And, of course, the phone thing, exposing yourself, just using the internet all the time, going to bed late, and staying on your phone every given moment, that does affect your biochemistry.
00:38:11.520 Finally, when it comes to biochemistry, is their schedule.
00:38:13.760 I tell men that your schedule is your lifeline.
00:38:15.860 If, first of all, you have no idea what you're doing in life, and I ask you, hey, man, what are you doing on a Thursday evening?
00:38:23.880 And you're like, dude, I'm just watching Netflix.
00:38:26.140 Without having a direction, you leave the rest of your life, those blank spaces in your calendar, open to anything. 0.97
00:38:33.720 And sex, pornography, orgasm, well, let's take the sex out, orgasm, masturbation, and pornography, it's so easy for it to just naturally fit in there because that's what we gravitate to naturally as men.
00:38:47.740 So having that purpose and mission is extremely important. 0.53
00:38:51.320 And it's actually one of the other reasons why I direct a lot of men to Order of Man because I'm like, yeah, you can fix all these issues in your life, man, but if you do not know where you're going and you don't establish any sort of values, it is just quite natural as a man for you to end up there again.
00:39:08.260 Gentlemen, just a quick pause.
00:39:09.720 It is that time of year again.
00:39:11.120 It's the holiday season.
00:39:12.040 For a lot of us, that conjures up happy images and memories, but it also calls into question some of the negative circumstances in which men find themselves.
00:39:23.400 And as we head into the new year, it's critical.
00:39:25.660 Guys, it's critical that we all start redefining our goals and our plans in how to achieve those things moving forward.
00:39:33.280 And that's why I want to talk with you about the Iron Council.
00:39:35.280 You've heard me talk about it before, but this is a brotherhood of men who are all working together.
00:39:39.720 We're all working to achieve and be more in our own lives and the lives of the people that we have responsibility for.
00:39:45.460 So when you band with us, one of the very first things that you are going to do is utilize our planning tool.
00:39:51.540 It's called the 12-week battle plan to help you identify some key objectives for specifically key objectives in some certain and specific areas that are important to you.
00:40:00.840 And more importantly than that, a system for helping you achieve more than potentially you ever have in the past.
00:40:07.740 So now is the perfect time.
00:40:10.140 If you've been on the fence, you've been wondering if this thing is the right thing for you.
00:40:13.860 Now is the right time as we head into the new year and make a very conscious effort to become the men that we have the ability and the capacity and that we're meant to be.
00:40:23.920 So if you want to learn more about what we're doing inside of the Iron Council, you want to lock in your spot before the new year, before we get implementing these battle plans, head to orderofman.com slash iron council.
00:40:34.920 Again, that's orderofman.com slash iron council.
00:40:38.600 You can do that after the show as well.
00:40:40.600 But for now, I'll get back to my conversation with JK.
00:40:42.920 I want to go back to what we started off with, which was the three reasons to quit porn.
00:40:49.660 You said number one was love, and I think that's pretty self-explanatory.
00:40:53.360 You've made a commitment to honor another human being, and so you want to honor that commitment.
00:40:58.280 I don't know.
00:40:58.560 Maybe that falls into duty.
00:40:59.700 I don't know.
00:41:00.380 Break these down a little bit further.
00:41:01.780 Love, duty, and then the last one, fear.
00:41:03.600 I'd be really curious how each of these break down.
00:41:06.060 Love is, as you explained, and it also extends to your children.
00:41:10.780 And so for many men who their reason for ending their behavior is love, I meet a lot of men who have their first child.
00:41:17.920 And as their child grows up, they just go like, you know what?
00:41:20.540 I'm watching some really disturbing material, and I do not want to be a man who has a child and watches this sort of behavior.
00:41:30.060 Sometimes they can't put their finger on it, but it just feels that they're not aligned with their values when they have a child, and this is happening.
00:41:37.040 Some men have young boys, and this is even more common, where they know that it is only a matter of time.
00:41:44.600 In today's culture, your child is not going to kind of skip porn.
00:41:50.040 No.
00:41:50.840 They'll be exposed to it.
00:41:51.960 Absolutely.
00:41:53.020 You must prepare them for that.
00:41:54.560 And so they go like, well, I can prepare my child, but I would be a hypocrite if I'm sitting there preparing my child and talking to them about the dangers of pornography when I myself have a compulsive behavior with it.
00:42:06.540 I can control my youth.
00:42:07.820 So the love extends more than just the partner to children.
00:42:12.120 Yeah, that makes sense.
00:42:12.900 How about the duty?
00:42:13.800 I imagine a lot of these are somewhat overlapped here.
00:42:16.260 At first glance, as you're actually saying them out, it seems as if you could apply all of them to family.
00:42:22.160 But duty also applies to a man's primary mission in life, whatever that may be.
00:42:27.660 On the lower level, on the secondary level, it could apply to his career, especially if he's realizing that his addiction to pornography and masturbation is not allowing him to push himself.
00:42:40.780 Because it's very, very difficult when you have this compulsive behavior with porn and masturbation to get motivated and to push yourself beyond a certain level.
00:42:51.580 And then when it comes to your mission, these are so far apart.
00:42:56.340 Sitting in front of a computer, hiding away from your wife and children, saying that you're going to check emails late in the evening, and masturbating away and your mission for what you want to contribute in your lifetime.
00:43:08.780 Yeah, we had a podcast that I did called The Integrity Gap, which was basically what you know you should be doing relative to what you're actually doing.
00:43:18.000 And the larger that gap, the more dissatisfied and unfulfilled you'll be in life.
00:43:22.740 Sounds like that's what you're talking about here.
00:43:24.760 Yeah, I actually like the way you're explaining it.
00:43:26.660 I got to listen to that episode.
00:43:27.900 On another level, it's you are engaging in the most animal aspect of your existence, versus the same time could be used to engage in the most evolved, and we could even say enlightened path that you could be on.
00:43:43.480 So that would be duty.
00:43:44.920 Okay.
00:43:45.220 And the final one is fear.
00:43:46.520 It is fear of, if we go with the family route, fear of losing your wife, fear of your escalating porn use, and maybe you've gotten to a point where you're acting out.
00:43:59.180 You've watched it, and you're having, every time you have a problem in your marriage or in your relationship, immediately you're wondering why. 0.59
00:44:07.260 You're like, well, why is it that my first reaction is, you know what, screw this. 1.00
00:44:11.460 I'm going to get a prostitute. 1.00
00:44:12.640 I'm going to go pick up a girl. 1.00
00:44:13.840 I'm going to download a dating app to my phone.
00:44:15.840 Why is it that my mind always goes to sex when I have a problem in my committed, intimate relationship?
00:44:25.300 Another aspect of fear is just fear of literally being caught and going to jail.
00:44:32.440 I'll tell you a quick story.
00:44:33.840 This one usually hits home. 0.55
00:44:35.100 He was watching porn, and he was watching some very nasty porn that did not, let's just say, did not align with his, what he identified with sexually.
00:44:44.600 He was watching it on his, you know, the computer, the family computer in the living room, and he has a five-year-old daughter. 0.72
00:44:52.880 She was out with mom shopping.
00:44:54.840 She and mom come back a little bit early, but our friend has his headphones on.
00:44:59.120 So they come home, and he hears the wife coming in, so he kind of, like, tries to shut it down, and he gets up, and he just rushes to the door to block her away from seeing the screen.
00:45:08.460 She's like, what are you doing?
00:45:09.340 Why don't you just go help her with the, you know, with the groceries, help your daughter with the groceries? 0.98
00:45:12.980 So he looks back, and thankfully, the screen is off.
00:45:17.120 So he's like, yeah, I hit the screen.
00:45:18.920 He goes in, carries the groceries, daughter runs in, and she runs straight to the computer because that's where he shows her cartoons or whatever.
00:45:27.460 Oh, geez.
00:45:27.540 Well, she sees all of this.
00:45:30.160 Wife flips, and his entire world comes crashing down because the daughter had to go to therapy, and she's still in therapy from what I last checked.
00:45:39.840 His wife, they went through a really bad divorce with everything that involves, including the lawyers and everything, from that one incident because, Ryan, that was the first time she had ever caught him.
00:45:49.880 You know, so that is fear, and many men have this fear.
00:45:53.240 I asked clients when they get, I was like, could you leave your phone around your wife unprotected?
00:45:58.140 Oh, no way, dude.
00:45:59.720 I could not do that.
00:46:01.300 No way.
00:46:02.700 I was like, then there's a problem.
00:46:04.480 If you are so afraid.
00:46:07.180 If you didn't think it was a problem, you wouldn't really make a huge effort to try to hide it.
00:46:13.000 Exactly.
00:46:14.220 Interesting.
00:46:15.240 What are some of the things that you have experienced as far as your clients go and men who are trying to overcome some of these addictions and urges that they are,
00:46:22.340 or I don't know if preoccupying their attention, maybe that's the right term, but preoccupying their attention or doing instead of engaging in this behavior?
00:46:30.740 Some of the behaviors, just to understand your question correctly, are saying some of the other things that they could be doing instead of engaging in behavior with pornography.
00:46:39.240 Correct.
00:46:39.740 Yes.
00:46:40.260 Okay.
00:46:40.580 Yeah.
00:46:41.260 There are a variety of things, and it does depend on the man.
00:46:45.080 So, in terms of categories, I break down the men I work with with different ages.
00:46:50.400 So, I work with men under 25, and I know it is generalizing, but I've just found that in terms of men's experience in life, it is easier to categorize them that way.
00:47:00.360 For men under 25, I let them know that one of the most important things for them is improving their skills, or rather, building skills.
00:47:08.860 And I personally believe that in your early 20s, a great amount of your time should be spent on a skill.
00:47:17.860 I personally sold books door-to-door, and I spent almost my entire early to mid-20s working about 70, 80 hours a week, I believe in hard work, because my body could take it and my mind could take it.
00:47:32.720 And I said, if you have way too much time on your hands, there's nothing wrong with playing video games, having sex, having fun, then you have a problem.
00:47:40.660 So, I usually break down men's schedule when it comes to that. 0.93
00:47:44.460 Also, for men who are under the age of 25, there usually isn't anything wrong with them masturbating.
00:47:51.440 It is more about control.
00:47:53.180 So, when it becomes compulsive and they've set up some solid boundaries, they're usually good to go.
00:47:58.120 Now, men who are older, who are in their 30s, who have families, specifically in their early 30s, they are usually medicating something with their porn use.
00:48:11.260 Earlier on, it was just a compulsive behavior.
00:48:14.720 Their brain needed to rewire.
00:48:16.360 But as you go through certain things in life, over the years, you start using the behavior that is most pleasurable to you.
00:48:24.340 Let's say it's drinking.
00:48:26.040 Let's say it's whatever it is.
00:48:28.120 It's sports or eating.
00:48:29.960 You start using that to medicate your pain in life and your struggles.
00:48:34.660 And I find that men in their 30s who are still struggling with this behavior, they're like, yeah, dude, it's just a bad habit.
00:48:40.580 I was like, you've had this bad habit since you were 14 years old?
00:48:43.760 No.
00:48:44.600 Something else is there.
00:48:45.760 And inevitably, Ryan, we find something else.
00:48:48.200 We find that they are very angry, for instance, that they went through a terrible divorce when they were 26 years old.
00:48:57.120 And they have all this regret because, J.K., I think I got married too early.
00:49:02.960 And really, we dig deeper and deeper.
00:49:05.620 And that is the main pain I find that sometimes, and that's an example, of course, that they are medicating.
00:49:11.580 In other words, I could tell the man, hey, go run.
00:49:14.560 Go distract yourself.
00:49:16.940 Go do something else or the other.
00:49:18.780 They make great progress when they use their very strong urges as an opportunity to do some work on themselves.
00:49:26.020 There's a great exercise by a therapist called George Collins.
00:49:29.520 It's called a dialoguing.
00:49:31.540 But it's basically where you split yourself into something like a subpersonality.
00:49:36.740 Let's say Dark Ryan and regular Ryan. 0.99
00:49:40.320 And Dark Ryan, you talk to Dark Ryan when Dark Ryan wants to watch that crazy, nasty pornography. 0.99
00:49:47.420 And you just do it to find out. 0.81
00:49:49.140 You just write it down in a little journal, quick one page, take a minute to do it.
00:49:53.760 And you find out why he wants it.
00:49:55.660 And it's a very quick, effective way of dissociating from that specific urge, which can be very overwhelming for some men, especially those who have a very high sex drive, going like, why do you want to do it?
00:50:07.820 And sometimes you create Dark Ryan might just be like, because you haven't resolved the pain from this terrible thing that happened in your childhood.
00:50:15.740 And you're like, dude, I just thought I was horny.
00:50:19.700 Right, right.
00:50:20.460 Yeah, that's a good point.
00:50:21.360 I mean, if you look deeper, it might go, like you said, a lot deeper than what you're initially seeing.
00:50:25.660 Yeah, I would love, Ryan, for it to be as simple as, oh, I tell my clients, like, dude, just go take a walk and calm down.
00:50:34.480 And I know there are a lot of systems out there that do that.
00:50:37.900 But I've realized, especially for the type of men I work with, that very strong urges for things that are natural to us are always a wonderful opportunity for us to become aware of ourselves.
00:50:50.520 And awareness is the first step, because once you are aware and you know the root of it, it usually causes the urge to actually pass faster.
00:51:00.180 So when you just realize that, oh, I'm only doing it because, you know, I really don't like my boss or that guy in middle management who tells me to do tasks, you're like, oh, that was a dumb reason.
00:51:10.740 So that's why.
00:51:11.900 Yeah.
00:51:12.240 The first thing is there has to be that paradigm shift.
00:51:14.500 Of course, you have to see that there is an emotion first.
00:51:17.600 Hence, awareness comes first.
00:51:19.180 So I could throw out a bunch of techniques I give guys that are helpful, but that doesn't solve the problem at the root.
00:51:24.680 Makes total sense.
00:51:26.620 Well, I know, JK, we're probably just skimming the surface on the things that we can talk about here.
00:51:31.440 Here they are, man.
00:51:33.080 But, you know, for the sake of time, certainly I think we've covered a lot. 0.74
00:51:35.840 And I think we've given the guys something to consider, you know, when it comes to pornography and masturbation and whether or not it's something they should engage.
00:51:42.500 I mean, ultimately, they have to make their own decisions.
00:51:44.080 But I think it's I think deep down we all know that there is some negative consequences that come with this behavior.
00:51:53.380 And I think we're skimming the surface.
00:51:55.060 But I would definitely direct them to you because you've done a lot of work in this area.
00:51:58.680 You've written for us.
00:51:59.880 We've had conversations before.
00:52:01.600 And I know a lot of guys are served by the work that you're doing.
00:52:05.280 Yes.
00:52:05.760 And I'm happy to speak to them.
00:52:07.040 And I'm also I also want to let everybody who is listening know that I welcome the controversy and I agree that it is not a black or white issue.
00:52:16.680 There are conversations to be had about that.
00:52:18.860 And I urge everyone to just be aware of one thing.
00:52:21.940 Our sexual nature is nature.
00:52:24.360 It is our sexual nature.
00:52:26.480 And no one should try to repress it or tell you that it is bad in any way.
00:52:31.760 However, with every aspect of our nature, both the violent aspects of us, both the nonviolent aspects of our nature, I feel that all men should be able to exercise a certain degree of self-control.
00:52:45.880 And if you feel that you do not have that self-control and discipline around your natural biological behavior, then there's no shame in seeking help.
00:52:54.580 Well, and I would also add that if in this area you're not able to exercise self-control, then you've got to ask yourself, what other areas of your life is this manifesting itself?
00:53:03.640 And could you develop the ability to control those urges in this aspect of life?
00:53:09.300 Where else could you do it in your life that would prove and enhance what it is you're doing and what you want to accomplish?
00:53:14.960 Yeah, I'm not going to say anything much on that because I would just launch into a whole nother area.
00:53:20.440 But you are absolutely right.
00:53:21.880 And I agree 100%, so I'll just zip my mouth right here.
00:53:25.820 Well, maybe we'll have to do a round two or something like that, and we can get into that as well.
00:53:30.560 Definitely, definitely.
00:53:32.180 Well, hey, JK, as we wind down, I do want to ask you the question I prepared you for a little bit, which was, what does it mean to be a man?
00:53:39.460 Great question.
00:53:40.140 Being a man for me means having an overarching mission to your entire life and in the process, building up your values and finally awareness.
00:53:52.760 Mission, values, and self-awareness.
00:53:56.700 Excellent.
00:53:57.160 Well, good.
00:53:57.440 Well, how do we connect with you?
00:53:59.040 How do we learn more about the work that you're doing and see what you're up to?
00:54:03.200 Yeah, I'm on every social media except Snapchat.
00:54:06.880 But you can find me at elevatedrecovery.org.
00:54:11.080 You can search for porn addiction on YouTube, and I'll pull up on the first and second page.
00:54:17.060 My program is called The Porn Reboot Podcast, and you can also find us on iTunes.
00:54:22.680 We are in the top 10 in iTunes in the health category.
00:54:27.120 And you can also visit me at pornreboot.com.
00:54:30.060 Right on.
00:54:30.300 We'll make all those connections so the guys know where to turn.
00:54:32.440 But, JK, just want to tell you I appreciate you.
00:54:34.200 I appreciate your work.
00:54:34.940 I think this is a good thing that you're doing for men.
00:54:36.880 An honor to have you on and talk about some of this today, which is obviously a sensitive subject and one that's not always a comfortable conversation to have.
00:54:44.640 But these are the best types of conversations for sure.
00:54:47.100 Yeah, Ryan, I do appreciate your work as well, and I'm so glad that you gave me the opportunity to come on here and share what I do.
00:54:54.860 Right on.
00:54:55.180 Thanks, brother.
00:54:56.040 Thank you so much.
00:54:58.540 Gentlemen, there it is.
00:54:59.560 A very powerful and, frankly, somewhat awkward, although it is important that we address these relevant issues that a lot of men are dealing with.
00:55:08.140 So I hope you enjoyed this one.
00:55:09.460 I hope you got some value from it.
00:55:10.900 If you are dealing with an addiction to pornography or masturbation or anything with regards to some of these sexual compulsive type disorders, then I would definitely encourage you to reach out to JK.
00:55:22.680 He's written on the site before.
00:55:24.460 Obviously, we've had this conversation.
00:55:25.960 Him and I have had other conversations.
00:55:27.440 And I always walk away with a lot of information that I didn't know before.
00:55:31.040 So I'd love to hear what you think about the show.
00:55:33.540 Hit me up on Twitter, Facebook.
00:55:35.600 I'm very, very active on Instagram.
00:55:37.240 And that's at Ryan Mickler.
00:55:39.260 And I've been more and more active on Twitter, which is at Order of Man.
00:55:43.580 So you can connect with me there.
00:55:45.100 Connect with JK in both places.
00:55:46.620 Let us know what you thought about the show, whether you agree, disagree.
00:55:49.560 Let's have a conversation about it because I think it is important, again, that we talk about these relevant subjects.
00:55:56.160 So, guys, I'll leave you there today.
00:55:57.840 Again, I hope you enjoyed the show.
00:55:59.060 I'm glad you're in this journey and in this battle with me.
00:56:01.180 Please, as a parting reminder, go ahead and leave a rating and review.
00:56:04.980 If you haven't already done that, we've got, I think we've got 2,200 or so ratings and reviews.
00:56:11.100 So I really appreciate the support.
00:56:12.820 We couldn't do it without you.
00:56:14.100 And it's not lost on me that you are actually sharing this mission, sharing this work.
00:56:18.940 And I'm very, very appreciative of that.
00:56:21.360 So, guys, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.
00:56:26.920 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.
00:56:29.940 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,
00:56:33.620 we invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.
00:56:37.100 Thank you.