Order of Man - ITT 008： Turning Information Into Application ｜ Pierre Azzam

00:00:00.040 Gentlemen, welcome to In the Trenches, an Order of Man podcast dedicated to interviewing

00:00:04.360 ordinary, everyday men like you and me who are currently in the battle of becoming better

00:00:08.840 men.

00:00:09.460 You'll hear the good, the bad, and the ugly from guys who are striving to become stronger

00:00:13.680 husbands, fathers, business owners, and community leaders.

00:00:17.560 It's our mission to deliver the stories that will inspire you to become the man you are

00:00:21.620 meant to be.

00:00:22.320 Your host for this podcast is a man who is not only in the trenches, but has drastically

00:00:26.920 changed his life for the better over the past two years.

00:00:29.260 Here's Mr. Bubba Downs.

00:00:32.580 All right, what's up guys?

00:00:33.860 Bubba here back with In the Trenches.

00:00:36.040 Today I am joined by Pierre Azam.

00:00:38.540 What's going on, brother?

00:00:39.640 Not much.

00:00:40.220 How are you, sir?

00:00:41.380 Living the dream, man.

00:00:42.600 Living the dream.

00:00:43.920 So Pierre, what are you working on these days, man?

00:00:45.940 Thank you for having me.

00:00:47.140 Absolutely, man.

00:00:47.780 My pleasure.

00:00:48.560 So what are you working on these days?

00:00:49.700 Yeah, so I'm mostly working on trying to do some writing, actually.

00:00:56.660 So I'm a psychiatrist living in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

00:01:02.040 I'm a Texan, and I've been doing a bit of academic writing, but I've started in the last

00:01:08.860 month or so, really in the last year or so, to do some work in fiction.

00:01:13.980 And I started in the last month working on a novel, which I'd never done before.

00:01:20.140 So I'm looking at writing about a thousand words a day, and that's been a real challenge.

00:01:25.460 But my Iron Council battle team is keeping me honest with it.

00:01:30.460 So that's been cool.

00:01:31.640 Tell us a little bit about the journey you're on, man.

00:01:34.380 Yeah, sure.

00:01:34.800 So, you know, I think looking back, I've been interested in personal development for much

00:01:41.380 of my life.

00:01:42.300 I think like a lot of guys in the Iron Council, certainly on probably a lot of the listeners,

00:01:49.920 I'm an introvert.

00:01:51.120 So even as a young boy, I would spend a lot of my time alone.

00:01:55.620 And I'd reflect on the world that I knew.

00:01:57.440 I was the son of two immigrants, both refugees who left the Middle East during wartime, and

00:02:05.500 I grew up in Texas, in Houston.

00:02:08.580 And as a teenager in my 20s, I became interested in the concept of identity.

00:02:14.680 My own, of course, but also social identities and how we all see ourselves based on the groups

00:02:22.260 and the traditions that we inhabit.

00:02:24.540 So like a lot of boys, I didn't have very many role models to help guide my identity as

00:02:31.880 a growing man.

00:02:33.280 So in 2005, I graduated from medical school, and I started to have a job, and I started

00:02:41.460 to have responsibilities.

00:02:43.540 And in a lot of ways, I felt like an adult, but I definitely didn't feel like a man.

00:02:48.620 I guess I kind of felt like an aged boy.

00:02:51.220 And I felt alone, kind of like all the men around me were a part of something that I

00:02:59.720 wasn't, and that I wasn't good enough to be a part of.

00:03:03.800 They had gained acceptance into a society or a club of men, and I was out there sort of

00:03:10.200 fumbling alone trying to get in.

00:03:11.680 And I felt lost and pretty depressed.

00:03:15.620 And I was maybe, I think, looking back about 25 when, and I was a bookworm.

00:03:22.220 I am a bookworm.

00:03:23.400 And I decided I would sort of tackle this feeling of being lost and not feeling like a man, like

00:03:32.820 an adult man by reading.

00:03:35.560 And for maybe 10 years, I collected books about what it meant to be a man, books like

00:03:41.780 Iron John and Wild at Heart and Way of the Superior Man.

00:03:45.680 And I think, you know, I was, I felt such shame about wanting to be better at being a man.

00:03:51.180 And it's kind of funny now, looking back at it, I read a lot of these books in secret.

00:03:55.400 I hide them, thinking that if anyone found them, I'd be found out and be discovered as

00:04:00.840 not a man.

00:04:01.440 So I read these books and I gained knowledge, but very little was actually changing in how

00:04:06.720 I was showing up in the world.

00:04:08.740 So let me, let me, let me stop, let me stop, let me stop you there, man.

00:04:11.020 Yeah.

00:04:11.360 What was your catalyst for stop learning about being a man?

00:04:17.060 Yeah.

00:04:17.300 Start doing to be a man.

00:04:18.640 What, what was the catalyst in that?

00:04:21.100 Yeah.

00:04:21.620 You know, I, it was, it's interesting because it's, it was really based on this feeling of

00:04:29.620 not being satisfied, feeling restless.

00:04:32.900 And I don't remember the situation.

00:04:34.660 It could have been one of a thousand different ones where I just felt really unsatisfied in

00:04:40.960 my life.

00:04:41.420 And, and I remember it was maybe one or 2am and I was in bed and I couldn't go to sleep.

00:04:46.280 Then I was, you know, I was looking at some social media site and I came upon, uh, the order

00:04:53.400 of man, uh, Facebook group.

00:04:55.960 And I hadn't joined the Facebook group for very long before I saw the iron council, um,

00:05:02.620 and decided, you know, it was time to, to stop reading about being a virtuous man and time

00:05:09.060 to start actually becoming one.

00:05:10.960 And you really can't do that hiding behind a book.

00:05:13.340 So I joined the iron council group about two years ago.

00:05:16.380 Um, it's been a real game changer and, you know, I, I don't have like a sexy catalyst

00:05:22.420 story here, but, uh, but I think that speaks to, uh, the many times in my life, probably

00:05:29.780 every day, uh, as you know, recently as a couple of years ago when I felt like I was unsatisfied

00:05:37.700 in what I was doing, like I was lost or not following a mission.

00:05:42.340 Um, yeah, so yeah, there's, there's, there's that saying that knowledge is power, which

00:05:47.280 I absolutely do not agree with knowledge plus action on that knowledge equals power.

00:05:54.180 You know, my, my homeboy Epic Titus and probably my favorite quote by him is first say to yourself

00:06:00.720 what you would be and then do what must be done.

00:06:04.500 So even, even 2000 years ago, the people knew that you can't just, you can't just read about

00:06:10.740 it.

00:06:10.860 You can't just impart all this knowledge into your brain and expect it through some kind

00:06:15.780 of sick osmosis to make you better.

00:06:18.020 You've actually got to take part in what you're reading in order to really, really grow and

00:06:24.460 expand as a man.

00:06:26.020 Yeah, you, you got that right.

00:06:28.000 I think I'd been reading a lot, uh, and probably reading a lot of the same things over and over

00:06:34.540 expecting that something dramatic would happen.

00:06:38.040 Something dramatic would change and it really wasn't until I started taking steps that were

00:06:44.380 not dramatic at all.

00:06:46.500 They were just baby steps towards becoming the type of man that I wanted to be, but actual

00:06:53.260 action that I started to feel more like one.

00:06:58.300 Yeah.

00:06:58.980 So I think that is very telling.

00:07:01.400 I think what you said is very telling something that I've noticed in the iron council, especially

00:07:06.140 is these guys join up and they're, they're thinking that they're going to overnight go

00:07:12.300 from what they were to what they want to be.

00:07:15.620 And that's, that's, it leads to a lot of burnout.

00:07:18.240 I've noticed that.

00:07:19.220 I mean, I even went through it myself because I started plugging in all these things that

00:07:23.420 I was going to do.

00:07:24.140 So yeah, man, I came in and I was on fire and I, I did, I burned myself out within probably

00:07:29.360 three months and it took me a little while to realize it took me 38 years to get to where

00:07:36.340 I was.

00:07:38.260 Yeah. 0.96

00:07:38.720 And if I thought that I was going to change that overnight, then I'm, I'm, I'm daft.

00:07:43.360 So I had to really recalibrate and start working on that Kaizen method where, you know, we work

00:07:48.180 on it 1% better every day.

00:07:51.120 And in doing that, it has really led to some great changes.

00:07:54.440 And that's, that's what I think that, that you're kind of getting at there.

00:07:57.000 And I think that's a really important strategy to follow.

00:08:00.540 So as you've been doing this, man, what are some of the big hurdles you've encountered?

00:08:06.400 Yeah, I, I think that a lot of the dilemmas that I've had, a lot of the hurdles have been

00:08:12.020 sort of internal dilemmas.

00:08:14.540 I've, you know, I faced a lot of challenging life experiences over the last decade or so.

00:08:19.640 And really over the last two years, since I've been part of the iron council, but, uh, but

00:08:24.820 a lot of them are internal.

00:08:25.860 And I had that burnout issue as well, where I would start and I was really fired up.

00:08:32.280 And like you, I was just, you know, commenting on everything and downloading everything and

00:08:37.820 trying to make a lot of changes and then sort of feeling burnt out.

00:08:41.140 But I think even now when I make a 1% improvement, um, I feel like that's a shortcoming, but it's

00:08:49.700 really, it's, it's growth, uh, cause you can't, you can't change your entire, your entire

00:08:55.700 experience overnight.

00:08:57.100 But, you know, I, I think for me, a dilemma that I'd faced recently was as a team leader

00:09:02.400 in the iron council.

00:09:03.360 Um, I, I was, uh, sort of afraid to speak to the men in my team about something that

00:09:09.700 I'd been holding onto, hadn't told them and something for me that had been tied to a lot

00:09:15.380 of personal judgment.

00:09:16.400 And I was in a position where every week I was asking these men to reveal important, um,

00:09:25.500 sometimes sensitive information that might've been off limits to anyone else.

00:09:29.980 And I felt too afraid even as a leader to do the same.

00:09:35.040 And maybe I say even as a leader, but, but maybe even especially as a leader, because I

00:09:40.340 felt like if I displayed some vulnerability that would undermine my ability to lead them

00:09:48.200 and, and to lead this team of which I was a part, but I also realized that by not doing

00:09:56.920 so, I really was undermining my ability to be part of this team and my ability to serve

00:10:05.240 the men in this team.

00:10:06.860 Um, and so, um, I came at these men with honesty and humility and, you know, a hell of a lot

00:10:13.600 of fear.

00:10:14.640 Um, and I, I thought that what I would get was, let, let me guess, let me guess.

00:10:20.700 They, they mocked you and ridiculed you and booed you out of your team that you got it.

00:10:26.840 That's a hundred percent, right.

00:10:28.320 That is exactly what did not happen.

00:10:30.340 You know, that's exactly what we all think will happen.

00:10:33.180 Um, but it's such a paradox.

00:10:35.820 We tell, we tell guys, um, things that, that are vulnerable about ourselves.

00:10:43.040 We come at each other with honesty and humility.

00:10:45.840 And sometimes when we say things that are vulnerable and some things that, that we might judge ourselves

00:10:51.060 for, uh, we think that others are going to look at us negatively and the exact opposite

00:10:57.180 happens.

00:10:58.260 So we allow ourselves to, or the other men to see us as real men.

00:11:04.320 Uh, we break down these sort of perceptions of perfection and, and they, you know, they,

00:11:11.440 they greeted me with a lot of acceptance and gratitude.

00:11:15.020 So I was, I was super pumped about that, but I also, it was a big lesson because I, you know,

00:11:21.300 I felt too afraid to, to lead and I was almost ready to throw in the towel, to be honest with

00:11:27.440 you.

00:11:27.580 I thought if I can't tell these guys something that's really important to me, then I really

00:11:33.340 can't be a leader.

00:11:34.700 Uh, and so I'm glad I did.

00:11:36.500 And my experience with these men has gotten only better ever since.

00:11:42.460 Yeah.

00:11:42.920 So I, I'm going to go ahead and kind of deviate off topic here for a minute, but the other

00:11:46.780 day, the other day in the order of man, Facebook group, a guy posted a story about how,

00:11:51.280 how he was put in some situations when he was a child and he opened up to his wife about

00:11:58.680 it and his wife mocked and ridiculed him.

00:12:02.460 Really?

00:12:03.320 But in the order of man group, he was met with so much support and so much gratitude for sharing

00:12:08.840 his story that he was getting just PMs just left and right and left and right.

00:12:15.320 Yeah.

00:12:15.840 Where guys are like, man, I've never been able to open up about this.

00:12:19.120 Thank you for your courage in sharing this.

00:12:21.480 It's given me the courage to do so myself.

00:12:24.560 Something that I have always said when people come to me and ask me, Hey, should I share my

00:12:28.420 story?

00:12:28.860 The answer is always yes.

00:12:30.980 Oh yeah.

00:12:31.480 You may not always need to tell it, but there's almost always somebody that needs to hear it,

00:12:36.320 man.

00:12:37.380 And that was just a, that was a, that was a pretty powerful story that came out of the,

00:12:41.700 out of the Facebook group.

00:12:43.260 We always think that we're going to be so negatively judged in the space of men that

00:12:47.860 we keep so much inside, you know, from an early age, we're taught boys don't cry, boys

00:12:54.940 don't share, you know, and it's, it's only through sharing what is going on that I have

00:13:01.660 really found the, the, the strength that I needed in order to overcome some of those

00:13:07.820 obstacles, you know, by having that band of brothers, by having that group of men there

00:13:12.260 that could a point me in the direction for resources that I needed and be, be able to

00:13:18.260 share in that story.

00:13:21.580 It's been a, that's been a game changer for me.

00:13:24.620 And it sounds like that might've been one of the milestones that you've reached as well.

00:13:30.080 Most definitely.

00:13:31.140 Most definitely.

00:13:31.660 I think that's a big, that's a big, well, the iron council in general has been a big

00:13:37.440 game changer for me, but that, that sort of realization that when we're vulnerable, when

00:13:42.780 we're honest with one another, when we come at each other with compassion and courage,

00:13:47.120 we actually open the doors for other men to voice their own fears and we, we overcome

00:13:54.560 them together because they're not actually all that scary once they're, once they're said

00:13:59.280 them, once other people respond to them in the ways that we don't expect them to.

00:14:04.500 Right.

00:14:04.740 And then not only, not only once you, once you voice them, then you can spot them.

00:14:09.200 And I like, I like to use the, um, the phrase you spot it, you got it.

00:14:13.640 So once you spot it, then you can actually determine a plan.

00:14:17.920 You can come up with a plan of action to either overcome or move past.

00:14:23.540 Totally.

00:14:23.940 And, and if you don't, then it's just, it grows as this sort of scary thing that just

00:14:31.040 keeps like getting bigger and bigger in your life until, until it comes out in some way

00:14:36.780 where, you know, you might not have brotherhood around you.

00:14:40.500 So it's like a really great opportunity to engage with other men and, and sort of break

00:14:47.720 down some of the barriers, uh, that, that keep us from these fears growing out of proportion

00:14:55.520 and, and keep us from moving forward.

00:14:59.440 Like I said, that's probably one of your milestones.

00:15:01.520 What are some other milestones that you've come across, man?

00:15:06.260 Some of the other, I'm sorry, you cut out just there a little bit.

00:15:09.240 What are, what are some of the other milestones you've come across?

00:15:11.260 Yeah.

00:15:13.180 So I think, um, I think becoming a team lead has probably been a big milestone because for

00:15:22.940 me, uh, thinking about, um, thinking about growing up, I always felt a little like I was

00:15:29.300 not in this group of men.

00:15:32.660 I felt like I was kind of an outsider.

00:15:35.220 Um, and, um, and for me, I joined the iron council and I was real pumped about personal

00:15:41.400 development, but I, I sort of, I still didn't see myself as much of a leader, uh, in the

00:15:48.320 group, um, in sort of the group at large.

00:15:52.400 So really for me, I think becoming a team lead has been a huge milestone.

00:15:57.500 It's allowed me to revisit myself, uh, in this sort of group of men.

00:16:04.500 And, and my own identity as a man, uh, and, and really to, to change some of the misconceptions

00:16:12.640 that I had about what being a man is, you know, I, I grew up with the very same notions

00:16:18.140 of traditional manhood that most of us did.

00:16:21.460 You know, you don't cry, you don't get too close, um, to, to other guys.

00:16:26.720 Uh, you don't share, um, you do it all on your own.

00:16:31.220 Um, and so, uh, really, I think that's, that had kept me from feeling like, uh, like I belonged

00:16:39.820 in a group.

00:16:40.520 And so the more I engaged in the iron council in a way that was, um, really practical and

00:16:48.600 feasible, not wanting to do it all overnight.

00:16:51.160 Cause you're right.

00:16:52.100 It took me 35 years to, to, to make it there.

00:16:55.720 I couldn't change overnight, but the more I started to see myself as, um, in support of

00:17:02.520 the other men and their missions and seeing the other men as being in support of my own,

00:17:08.780 um, I could actually make a difference.

00:17:10.720 And I, I felt like I was leading, um, and I felt like I belonged.

00:17:15.220 And so I think for me, becoming a team lead was kind of a big game changer.

00:17:19.360 It felt for me like I had, um, overcome this misconception that there was like a secret

00:17:29.480 man defining society that I could never be a part of.

00:17:34.560 And what, what are some of the other tech, what are some of the other takeaways that you've

00:17:37.940 had on this journey?

00:17:39.180 Yeah, I guess, you know, my, my profession, my role is really in, uh, is in psychiatry is

00:17:48.820 in mental health.

00:17:49.780 So there is some overlap between, uh, what, what I do at work and my interest in personal

00:17:58.360 development and my work with the iron council.

00:18:01.500 And I feel like I'm really devoted to helping improve, improve the mental wellbeing of men.

00:18:08.300 Um, across the lifespan, both, you know, both in my personal life, but also in my professional

00:18:13.820 work.

00:18:14.860 And, um, and along this journey, I've seen that there is not one single thing that defines

00:18:22.880 us as men.

00:18:24.100 And, you know, you see this when you're part of a group that is, uh, as large and diverse

00:18:30.520 as the iron council that, you know, not every man is the same.

00:18:35.680 They all, we all have hurdles and milestones that we had had to cross that, um, maybe we

00:18:44.780 didn't know about maybe ones that defy traditional rules of masculinity. 0.97

00:18:50.440 Um, so I think that if there's no single man code, then there's not a single thing that doesn't

00:18:59.760 make us a man.

00:19:00.520 There's not a single thing that keeps us from being the man that we want to be.

00:19:05.060 There may be sets of virtues and actions that can be adaptive or beneficial to us as men.

00:19:11.740 But if you're a man who's struggling with identity or with honesty or integrity or strength or sexual

00:19:17.820 function or your wealth, well, then you're not any less of a man.

00:19:22.360 You're just as much of a man as the rest of us who are in the iron council.

00:19:25.580 And the difference being that we're actually doing this together as a group, which is pretty,

00:19:32.300 pretty bad-ass.

00:19:34.060 I think it's, you know, I think it's unique among men.

00:19:36.940 We're probably struggling with this epidemic of isolation and aloneness.

00:19:43.580 Then we see this in our boys growing up, um, that a lot of the traditional man laws kind

00:19:50.080 of keep us from forming groups and, and the iron council flies in the face of this, uh,

00:19:56.640 which is pretty cool.

00:19:57.780 Yes, sir.

00:19:58.940 So what kind of advice would you give these guys that are just getting started on this

00:20:02.080 journey?

00:20:03.860 Ooh, I think, um, you know, I mentioned earlier that I spent about a decade reading, uh, I could

00:20:11.980 spend, you know, a hundred lifetimes reading about how to be a better man.

00:20:17.960 And still not become one until I take a single step.

00:20:23.480 So I think you really have to take informed action.

00:20:26.340 So I'm going to piggyback a little on what you mentioned earlier.

00:20:30.000 I would challenge men to reflect on how they could show up better in their lives on whether

00:20:35.920 or not they're reading about it, uh, or asking others about it.

00:20:39.660 I mean, I think that's great, but I would challenge men to create a vision statement for themselves

00:20:44.160 in one area of their lives, money or relationships or health or personal wellness, and to break

00:20:51.600 that down into some actionable step.

00:20:54.460 And then to maybe put the book down, put the list down, uh, you know, put the advice aside

00:21:00.580 and actually take a step forward.

00:21:02.540 Um, because I think that step forward is the only thing that's going to, to get men closer

00:21:10.320 to the visions that they have for themselves.

00:21:13.240 It gets all of us closer to the visions that we have for ourselves as men.

00:21:17.620 Um, and reading is great.

00:21:19.060 Knowledge is great, but it's just not enough.

00:21:21.940 Right on, man.

00:21:22.920 So, all right, guys, you heard it.

00:21:24.980 There's your challenge for the week.

00:21:26.280 I want to see those responses where you're actually taking part of this challenge in

00:21:30.580 the order of man, Facebook group with the hashtag in the trenches.

00:21:35.240 All right, Pierre, before I let you get back to your, to your Sunday, man, I got one more

00:21:38.920 question for you and I did not prepare you for this.

00:21:42.440 What is it?

00:21:43.300 What does it mean to be a man?

00:21:46.940 Oh, I knew this question was coming.

00:21:49.220 Uh, give me a moment on this one.

00:21:53.600 Cause I think this is, I think this is an important question and I'm going to reiterate

00:21:57.480 something that I mentioned a little bit earlier.

00:22:01.120 Um, you know, I, I, part of what I've been interested in professionally has been what it

00:22:07.420 means for men to be men and how that impacts our mental health.

00:22:13.100 Um, and so, you know, you can look at virtues and rules and, uh, traditions and norms of masculinity.

00:22:22.400 But I think you don't boil it down to one thing.

00:22:25.880 Um, so I would say, um, probably what it means to be a man for us when we ask that question

00:22:33.660 is usually what does it mean to be a virtuous man?

00:22:37.200 And I think for, to be a virtuous man, you are open to thinking about what is working well

00:22:46.240 in your life where you're succeeding, uh, and also where you're not succeeding areas that

00:22:52.560 you're failing and are courageous enough then to take the initiative to cement the, the actions

00:23:04.220 in your life that are working well for you, the actions that are adaptive and brave enough

00:23:10.080 to change the actions that are not working for you or your family or your community or your

00:23:16.980 society.

00:23:17.500 So for me, that's what it means to be a virtuous man.

00:23:20.560 I think I would caution people away from a single definition of manhood because I think

00:23:27.440 it's so diverse, um, that all, all of us who, you know, who identify as men are able to

00:23:37.260 fit in as men.

00:23:39.420 Um, does that make sense?

00:23:41.360 I guess that's kind of a long, uh, a long roundabout way of saying, I don't think that

00:23:45.680 there's a single definition.

00:23:47.460 That was definitely a long roundabout way to say that.

00:23:51.400 Yeah.

00:23:52.320 All right, guys.

00:23:53.160 Well, if any of this stuff has, um, resonated with you and you're interested in seeing what

00:23:58.200 we're about inside the iron council, please go to order of man.com slash in the trenches

00:24:02.720 until next time, guys, I'm Bubba Pierre.

00:24:06.240 I appreciate you so much, man. 0.98

00:24:08.080 You've been, you've been, you've been a killer, man. 0.96

00:24:11.720 All right, brother. 0.99

00:24:12.520 We'll catch you around.

00:24:15.320 If you've been inspired by this conversation, we encourage you to learn more about the steps,

00:24:19.660 tools, strategy, and resources.

00:24:21.240 These men are using inside of our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council.

00:24:24.800 The iron council is a band of brothers dedicated to leveling up their lives and committed to helping

00:24:29.300 you do the same.

00:24:30.440 You can learn more at order of man.com slash in the trenches until next week, take action

00:24:35.580 and become the man you are meant to be.

Order of Man - April 25, 2018

ITT 008： Turning Information Into Application ｜ Pierre Azzam

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