ITT 008： Turning Information Into Application ｜ Pierre Azzam
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Summary
Pierre Azam is a psychiatrist living in Pittsburgh, PA. He is a member of the Iron Council, a group dedicated to helping men become better husbands, fathers, business owners, and community leaders. In this episode, Pierre shares his story of how he became a better man.
Transcript
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Gentlemen, welcome to In the Trenches, an Order of Man podcast dedicated to interviewing
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ordinary, everyday men like you and me who are currently in the battle of becoming better
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You'll hear the good, the bad, and the ugly from guys who are striving to become stronger
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husbands, fathers, business owners, and community leaders.
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It's our mission to deliver the stories that will inspire you to become the man you are
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Your host for this podcast is a man who is not only in the trenches, but has drastically
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changed his life for the better over the past two years.
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So Pierre, what are you working on these days, man?
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Yeah, so I'm mostly working on trying to do some writing, actually.
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So I'm a psychiatrist living in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
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I'm a Texan, and I've been doing a bit of academic writing, but I've started in the last
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month or so, really in the last year or so, to do some work in fiction.
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And I started in the last month working on a novel, which I'd never done before.
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So I'm looking at writing about a thousand words a day, and that's been a real challenge.
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But my Iron Council battle team is keeping me honest with it.
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Tell us a little bit about the journey you're on, man.
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So, you know, I think looking back, I've been interested in personal development for much
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I think like a lot of guys in the Iron Council, certainly on probably a lot of the listeners,
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So even as a young boy, I would spend a lot of my time alone.
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I was the son of two immigrants, both refugees who left the Middle East during wartime, and
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And as a teenager in my 20s, I became interested in the concept of identity.
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My own, of course, but also social identities and how we all see ourselves based on the groups
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So like a lot of boys, I didn't have very many role models to help guide my identity as
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So in 2005, I graduated from medical school, and I started to have a job, and I started
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And in a lot of ways, I felt like an adult, but I definitely didn't feel like a man.
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And I felt alone, kind of like all the men around me were a part of something that I
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wasn't, and that I wasn't good enough to be a part of.
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They had gained acceptance into a society or a club of men, and I was out there sort of
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And I was maybe, I think, looking back about 25 when, and I was a bookworm.
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And I decided I would sort of tackle this feeling of being lost and not feeling like a man, like
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And for maybe 10 years, I collected books about what it meant to be a man, books like
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Iron John and Wild at Heart and Way of the Superior Man.
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And I think, you know, I was, I felt such shame about wanting to be better at being a man.
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And it's kind of funny now, looking back at it, I read a lot of these books in secret.
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I hide them, thinking that if anyone found them, I'd be found out and be discovered as
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So I read these books and I gained knowledge, but very little was actually changing in how
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So let me, let me, let me stop, let me stop, let me stop you there, man.
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What was your catalyst for stop learning about being a man?
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You know, I, it was, it's interesting because it's, it was really based on this feeling of
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It could have been one of a thousand different ones where I just felt really unsatisfied in
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And, and I remember it was maybe one or 2am and I was in bed and I couldn't go to sleep.
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Then I was, you know, I was looking at some social media site and I came upon, uh, the order
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And I hadn't joined the Facebook group for very long before I saw the iron council, um,
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and decided, you know, it was time to, to stop reading about being a virtuous man and time
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And you really can't do that hiding behind a book.
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So I joined the iron council group about two years ago.
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Um, it's been a real game changer and, you know, I, I don't have like a sexy catalyst
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story here, but, uh, but I think that speaks to, uh, the many times in my life, probably
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every day, uh, as you know, recently as a couple of years ago when I felt like I was unsatisfied
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in what I was doing, like I was lost or not following a mission.
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Um, yeah, so yeah, there's, there's, there's that saying that knowledge is power, which
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I absolutely do not agree with knowledge plus action on that knowledge equals power.
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You know, my, my homeboy Epic Titus and probably my favorite quote by him is first say to yourself
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what you would be and then do what must be done.
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So even, even 2000 years ago, the people knew that you can't just, you can't just read about
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You can't just impart all this knowledge into your brain and expect it through some kind
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You've actually got to take part in what you're reading in order to really, really grow and
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I think I'd been reading a lot, uh, and probably reading a lot of the same things over and over
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expecting that something dramatic would happen.
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Something dramatic would change and it really wasn't until I started taking steps that were
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They were just baby steps towards becoming the type of man that I wanted to be, but actual
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I think what you said is very telling something that I've noticed in the iron council, especially
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is these guys join up and they're, they're thinking that they're going to overnight go
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And that's, that's, it leads to a lot of burnout.
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I mean, I even went through it myself because I started plugging in all these things that
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So yeah, man, I came in and I was on fire and I, I did, I burned myself out within probably
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three months and it took me a little while to realize it took me 38 years to get to where
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And if I thought that I was going to change that overnight, then I'm, I'm, I'm daft.
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So I had to really recalibrate and start working on that Kaizen method where, you know, we work
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And in doing that, it has really led to some great changes.
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And that's, that's what I think that, that you're kind of getting at there.
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And I think that's a really important strategy to follow.
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So as you've been doing this, man, what are some of the big hurdles you've encountered?
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Yeah, I, I think that a lot of the dilemmas that I've had, a lot of the hurdles have been
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I've, you know, I faced a lot of challenging life experiences over the last decade or so.
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And really over the last two years, since I've been part of the iron council, but, uh, but
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And I had that burnout issue as well, where I would start and I was really fired up.
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And like you, I was just, you know, commenting on everything and downloading everything and
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trying to make a lot of changes and then sort of feeling burnt out.
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But I think even now when I make a 1% improvement, um, I feel like that's a shortcoming, but it's
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really, it's, it's growth, uh, cause you can't, you can't change your entire, your entire
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But, you know, I, I think for me, a dilemma that I'd faced recently was as a team leader
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Um, I, I was, uh, sort of afraid to speak to the men in my team about something that
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I'd been holding onto, hadn't told them and something for me that had been tied to a lot
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And I was in a position where every week I was asking these men to reveal important, um,
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sometimes sensitive information that might've been off limits to anyone else.
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And I felt too afraid even as a leader to do the same.
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And maybe I say even as a leader, but, but maybe even especially as a leader, because I
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felt like if I displayed some vulnerability that would undermine my ability to lead them
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and, and to lead this team of which I was a part, but I also realized that by not doing
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so, I really was undermining my ability to be part of this team and my ability to serve
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Um, and so, um, I came at these men with honesty and humility and, you know, a hell of a lot
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Um, and I, I thought that what I would get was, let, let me guess, let me guess.
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They, they mocked you and ridiculed you and booed you out of your team that you got it.
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You know, that's exactly what we all think will happen.
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We tell, we tell guys, um, things that, that are vulnerable about ourselves.
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We come at each other with honesty and humility.
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And sometimes when we say things that are vulnerable and some things that, that we might judge ourselves
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for, uh, we think that others are going to look at us negatively and the exact opposite
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So we allow ourselves to, or the other men to see us as real men.
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Uh, we break down these sort of perceptions of perfection and, and they, you know, they,
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they greeted me with a lot of acceptance and gratitude.
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So I was, I was super pumped about that, but I also, it was a big lesson because I, you know,
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I felt too afraid to, to lead and I was almost ready to throw in the towel, to be honest with
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I thought if I can't tell these guys something that's really important to me, then I really
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And my experience with these men has gotten only better ever since.
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So I, I'm going to go ahead and kind of deviate off topic here for a minute, but the other
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day, the other day in the order of man, Facebook group, a guy posted a story about how,
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how he was put in some situations when he was a child and he opened up to his wife about
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But in the order of man group, he was met with so much support and so much gratitude for sharing
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his story that he was getting just PMs just left and right and left and right.
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Where guys are like, man, I've never been able to open up about this.
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Something that I have always said when people come to me and ask me, Hey, should I share my
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You may not always need to tell it, but there's almost always somebody that needs to hear it,
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And that was just a, that was a, that was a pretty powerful story that came out of the,
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We always think that we're going to be so negatively judged in the space of men that
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we keep so much inside, you know, from an early age, we're taught boys don't cry, boys
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don't share, you know, and it's, it's only through sharing what is going on that I have
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really found the, the, the strength that I needed in order to overcome some of those
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obstacles, you know, by having that band of brothers, by having that group of men there
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that could a point me in the direction for resources that I needed and be, be able to
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It's been a, that's been a game changer for me.
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And it sounds like that might've been one of the milestones that you've reached as well.
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I think that's a big, that's a big, well, the iron council in general has been a big
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game changer for me, but that, that sort of realization that when we're vulnerable, when
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we're honest with one another, when we come at each other with compassion and courage,
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we actually open the doors for other men to voice their own fears and we, we overcome
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them together because they're not actually all that scary once they're, once they're said
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them, once other people respond to them in the ways that we don't expect them to.
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And then not only, not only once you, once you voice them, then you can spot them.
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And I like, I like to use the, um, the phrase you spot it, you got it.
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So once you spot it, then you can actually determine a plan.
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You can come up with a plan of action to either overcome or move past.
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And, and if you don't, then it's just, it grows as this sort of scary thing that just
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keeps like getting bigger and bigger in your life until, until it comes out in some way
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where, you know, you might not have brotherhood around you.
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So it's like a really great opportunity to engage with other men and, and sort of break
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down some of the barriers, uh, that, that keep us from these fears growing out of proportion
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Like I said, that's probably one of your milestones.
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What are some other milestones that you've come across, man?
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Some of the other, I'm sorry, you cut out just there a little bit.
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What are, what are some of the other milestones you've come across?
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So I think, um, I think becoming a team lead has probably been a big milestone because for
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me, uh, thinking about, um, thinking about growing up, I always felt a little like I was
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Um, and, um, and for me, I joined the iron council and I was real pumped about personal
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development, but I, I sort of, I still didn't see myself as much of a leader, uh, in the
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So really for me, I think becoming a team lead has been a huge milestone.
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It's allowed me to revisit myself, uh, in this sort of group of men.
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And, and my own identity as a man, uh, and, and really to, to change some of the misconceptions
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that I had about what being a man is, you know, I, I grew up with the very same notions
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You know, you don't cry, you don't get too close, um, to, to other guys.
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Uh, you don't share, um, you do it all on your own.
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Um, and so, uh, really, I think that's, that had kept me from feeling like, uh, like I belonged
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And so the more I engaged in the iron council in a way that was, um, really practical and
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I couldn't change overnight, but the more I started to see myself as, um, in support of
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the other men and their missions and seeing the other men as being in support of my own,
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And I, I felt like I was leading, um, and I felt like I belonged.
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And so I think for me, becoming a team lead was kind of a big game changer.
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It felt for me like I had, um, overcome this misconception that there was like a secret
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man defining society that I could never be a part of.
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And what, what are some of the other tech, what are some of the other takeaways that you've
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Yeah, I guess, you know, my, my profession, my role is really in, uh, is in psychiatry is
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So there is some overlap between, uh, what, what I do at work and my interest in personal
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And I feel like I'm really devoted to helping improve, improve the mental wellbeing of men.
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Um, across the lifespan, both, you know, both in my personal life, but also in my professional
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And, um, and along this journey, I've seen that there is not one single thing that defines
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And, you know, you see this when you're part of a group that is, uh, as large and diverse
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as the iron council that, you know, not every man is the same.
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They all, we all have hurdles and milestones that we had had to cross that, um, maybe we
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didn't know about maybe ones that defy traditional rules of masculinity.
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Um, so I think that if there's no single man code, then there's not a single thing that doesn't
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There's not a single thing that keeps us from being the man that we want to be.
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There may be sets of virtues and actions that can be adaptive or beneficial to us as men.
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But if you're a man who's struggling with identity or with honesty or integrity or strength or sexual
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function or your wealth, well, then you're not any less of a man.
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You're just as much of a man as the rest of us who are in the iron council.
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And the difference being that we're actually doing this together as a group, which is pretty,
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I think it's, you know, I think it's unique among men.
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We're probably struggling with this epidemic of isolation and aloneness.
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Then we see this in our boys growing up, um, that a lot of the traditional man laws kind
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of keep us from forming groups and, and the iron council flies in the face of this, uh,
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So what kind of advice would you give these guys that are just getting started on this
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Ooh, I think, um, you know, I mentioned earlier that I spent about a decade reading, uh, I could
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spend, you know, a hundred lifetimes reading about how to be a better man.
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And still not become one until I take a single step.
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So I think you really have to take informed action.
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So I'm going to piggyback a little on what you mentioned earlier.
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I would challenge men to reflect on how they could show up better in their lives on whether
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or not they're reading about it, uh, or asking others about it.
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I mean, I think that's great, but I would challenge men to create a vision statement for themselves
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in one area of their lives, money or relationships or health or personal wellness, and to break
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And then to maybe put the book down, put the list down, uh, you know, put the advice aside
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Um, because I think that step forward is the only thing that's going to, to get men closer
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It gets all of us closer to the visions that we have for ourselves as men.
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I want to see those responses where you're actually taking part of this challenge in
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the order of man, Facebook group with the hashtag in the trenches.
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All right, Pierre, before I let you get back to your, to your Sunday, man, I got one more
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question for you and I did not prepare you for this.
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Cause I think this is, I think this is an important question and I'm going to reiterate
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something that I mentioned a little bit earlier.
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Um, you know, I, I, part of what I've been interested in professionally has been what it
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means for men to be men and how that impacts our mental health.
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Um, and so, you know, you can look at virtues and rules and, uh, traditions and norms of masculinity.
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But I think you don't boil it down to one thing.
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Um, so I would say, um, probably what it means to be a man for us when we ask that question
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is usually what does it mean to be a virtuous man?
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And I think for, to be a virtuous man, you are open to thinking about what is working well
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in your life where you're succeeding, uh, and also where you're not succeeding areas that
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you're failing and are courageous enough then to take the initiative to cement the, the actions
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in your life that are working well for you, the actions that are adaptive and brave enough
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to change the actions that are not working for you or your family or your community or your
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So for me, that's what it means to be a virtuous man.
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I think I would caution people away from a single definition of manhood because I think
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it's so diverse, um, that all, all of us who, you know, who identify as men are able to
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I guess that's kind of a long, uh, a long roundabout way of saying, I don't think that
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That was definitely a long roundabout way to say that.
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Well, if any of this stuff has, um, resonated with you and you're interested in seeing what
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we're about inside the iron council, please go to order of man.com slash in the trenches
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You've been, you've been, you've been a killer, man.
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If you've been inspired by this conversation, we encourage you to learn more about the steps,
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These men are using inside of our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council.
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The iron council is a band of brothers dedicated to leveling up their lives and committed to helping
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You can learn more at order of man.com slash in the trenches until next week, take action