Order of Man

00:00:00.000 Gentlemen, one of my favorite podcast guests and friends is back on the show today. His name is

00:00:05.160 Jack Carr, former Navy SEAL, and of course, the author of the James Reese series with his latest

00:00:10.780 book just released called The Devil's Hand. Today, Jack and I talk about the differences between a

00:00:16.020 calling and a career, dealing with discouragement from others, the conditioning that takes place in

00:00:21.360 society and how to overcome it, Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey, and ultimately how to utilize

00:00:26.600 it in your own life. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears,

00:00:31.920 and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:38.080 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is

00:00:44.740 who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:00:50.440 you can call yourself a man. Men, what is going on today? My name is

00:00:54.540 Brian Mickler, and I am the host and founder of the Order Man Podcast and Movement. It is my goal

00:01:00.620 to share with you traditional masculine virtues and values to give you the tools and resources

00:01:07.980 and conversations you need to be able to thrive as a man in your own life, in whatever capacity

00:01:13.360 that is, whether you're a father, a husband, a business owner, a leader in your community,

00:01:17.440 a mentor, whatever capacity you're serving, I want to serve you. I want to help you be more of the man

00:01:22.960 that you have a desire to be and that you're meant to be as well. And the people that are around you

00:01:27.140 are relying upon. So we've got this interview series. We've got the Iron Council, which is our

00:01:32.800 exclusive brotherhood. We've got a lot going on. So if you want to support this mission, spread the

00:01:38.240 word, please leave the iTunes rating and review. It goes a very long way in promoting the visibility

00:01:43.300 of the show. And of course that helps us climb the ranks of the charts as well. Last I checked,

00:01:47.960 we were just around number 30 in iTunes. We need to be in top 10. Well, we need to be number one,

00:01:54.980 but we're going to hit top 10 first. So I need you to leave a rating and review because that goes

00:01:58.380 again, a very long way in promoting what we're doing here. Before I get into the show today,

00:02:03.580 I do want to mention my friends over at origin, Maine. You've heard me talk about them now for years.

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00:02:55.000 main.com origin, main.com. And then use the code order O R D E R at checkout, because you're going to

00:03:01.600 get a discount when you do again, origin, main use the code order at checkout. All right, guys,

00:03:07.400 like I previously mentioned, my guest today is the one and only Jack Carr. It may be that you've

00:03:12.720 heard him on some other podcasts over the past several weeks, because he just came out with

00:03:16.480 this new book, the devil's hand. But I tried to make this one different because I want to get you

00:03:20.300 some different information than you're going to hear on other podcasts. So I think you're really

00:03:24.740 going to enjoy this conversation. If you're not familiar with who Jack is, he's a former Navy SEAL.

00:03:30.180 Uh, and he's also the author of this very successful series, James Reese series with again,

00:03:37.120 his newest book called the devil's hand. Now I can tell you a bunch about his books and

00:03:40.660 how successful he is. But what you may not know is that he's one of the most genuine men you'll

00:03:45.580 ever meet. Uh, he invited me into his home. He introduced me to his beautiful family. He broke

00:03:50.660 bread with me. Like we were old friends. This is the very first time we met, uh, years ago. Uh,

00:03:55.740 and since then we've become friends and it's been incredible to see him become so successful as an

00:03:59.340 author with one of his books, actually just being filmed right now with Chris Pratt playing the

00:04:03.920 role of James Reese, which we do talk a bit about in this podcast. So I hope you enjoy this one.

00:04:10.880 Let's see. I'm going to turn off this. Hey, what's up, man. I'm gonna turn off my

00:04:13.900 email here so I can have less things beeping at us. I'm going to turn off my phone. I think that's

00:04:20.340 about all I can manage. Everything else that beeps is just gonna, gonna beep. But, uh, yeah,

00:04:25.140 well, I imagine, you know, I, I think we started talking and we got to know each other probably

00:04:31.280 about three years or so ago, maybe two, three years ago. Uh, and I imagine even just looking,

00:04:36.980 you know, we're friends, but I even see you on Instagram and I'm like, this guy's life has

00:04:40.900 drastically changed in a period of two to three years. It's certainly, it was always busy, but,

00:04:47.680 uh, you know, now it's, um, it's, it's busy, I guess with more, not as moral purpose. It's always,

00:04:55.140 had purpose, but I guess they're just more demands. Like the other, the other busy is

00:05:00.140 self-generated, you know, making it happen. Um, now I'm still doing that, but then there's a lot

00:05:05.940 more inputs, uh, that want things or, you know, other opportunities or whatever. And there's just

00:05:11.440 no possible way to juggle all of it. So I have to get better at prioritizing, going to get some

00:05:17.200 systems in place this year, uh, to kind of take me from, um, garage startup to kind of some more

00:05:25.640 established systems that'll allow me to be more efficient. So I can focus on what I need to be

00:05:29.700 focused on, which is the writing. Um, but up until this point, if you want to write, you also have to

00:05:34.800 do all these supporting efforts. So in the military, we have the main effort and we have all the supporting

00:05:38.540 efforts. And, uh, uh, as you know, but, uh, but I need to get better about me not being the one

00:05:45.800 that's running all of those supporting efforts, kind of like the merchandise stuff like that. We

00:05:49.980 couldn't, my wife and I couldn't meet demand. We're in the bedroom, we're in the living room,

00:05:53.360 we're in the kitchen, stuffing envelopes, stuffing boxes, printing labels, dealing with customer

00:05:57.960 service. Like, you, you know, like, uh, so I forgot to put a, the apartment B on my order,

00:06:02.180 but it's already gone out, you know, right, right. All that. And so finally we're like,

00:06:06.160 okay, we need to outsource that go to a fulfillment center. Um, but find one that allows us to

00:06:11.620 put our kind of like more boutique type stuff in there. So it's not just them putting out

00:06:15.520 junk. It's like that curated stuff that, uh, that I like, like the bottle breacher stuff

00:06:20.540 or the direct action bookmarks or, you know, Yeti cups or, you know, black rifle, whatever

00:06:25.160 it is like to get that all on there. And then also have them do what they do at the fulfillment

00:06:29.380 center, which is like t-shirts and hats and that sort of thing, but all has to be all top

00:06:33.740 quality stuff. Um, so that'll be outsourced. So point being getting smarter about this stuff.

00:06:39.740 Good. Well, what a good position to be in. You know, it's funny because somebody might

00:06:42.940 interpret that at outlook. It's not complaining, but somebody might have, oh, well, you know,

00:06:50.460 wouldn't it be nice if I had to worry about order fulfillment and everything else? So,

00:06:54.140 you know, it's, it is nice.

00:06:56.500 That is for sure. Nice. It is a good problem to have. No doubt. That's the problem that you want.

00:07:03.160 Um, and then once you have that, uh, not necessarily a problem, but just, uh, an issue,

00:07:07.780 it's time to then figure out how to be more effective and efficient with it so that you

00:07:12.780 have more time to devote to the main effort, uh, and things you can't outsource. Uh, and then also

00:07:18.060 to personal things like family. So gotta be smart about all this.

00:07:23.200 Well, I'm glad you brought that up because look in my own business with order, man, and, and,

00:07:28.020 and you and I, I think kind of cut our teeth in the entrepreneurial space, you know, kind

00:07:32.480 of up, maybe not the entrepreneurial space, but our particular movement. It's at about the same time.

00:07:37.340 Um, I I've deliberately and intentionally had to throttle back on some opportunities,

00:07:41.740 opportunities, things that arise because I have other priorities. And I'm wondering,

00:07:45.860 as you talked about a minute ago where you said, you know, I have all these offers and things thrown

00:07:50.060 at me and it's only going to get more. So I imagine in your life, how you decide that's worth

00:07:56.120 pursuing that's worth pursuing. Nope. Not, not interested in that because they got these other

00:08:00.940 things they got to do. How do you personally prioritize the opportunities and also the

00:08:05.700 personal ambitions that you have for yourself? Yeah. So up until this point, I've said no to

00:08:10.040 pretty much everything as far as, uh, things that were, I guess, commercial in nature might be the

00:08:16.440 best way to say it. Um, so what I've said yes to are things like interviews, um, like being part of

00:08:23.360 projects, uh, you know, that, that sort of things that, um, help grow the readership through something

00:08:31.020 of value, not just something like, Hey, we put, we're wearing these sunglasses and we'll give you

00:08:36.740 X. Like I said, no to all that. Like that, that's, which is tempting. Cause it's easy for somebody to

00:08:40.940 say, Hey, we're going to pay you, you know, 50 grand. If you do these things, it's very tempting to

00:08:45.840 say, yeah, uh, yeah, I'll definitely do that. Yeah. Now I said no. Um, because I didn't,

00:08:51.620 I want to put more thought into how that goes and right now and up to this point and going forward

00:08:57.140 as well, I realized the importance of that trust that's been built up with whether it's the audience

00:09:02.100 on Instagram, whether it's the readership, uh, whether it's someone that just, you know,

00:09:06.100 tunes in for an interview here or there on different podcasts, you know, whatever, whatever it is, uh,

00:09:10.580 the power of that is, is that trust. And that's because I haven't said yes to these things. Like

00:09:16.480 having all of a sudden become a fan of something that I haven't like talked about before where it's

00:09:22.440 obvious. Oh, this company contacted him and now I was giving him X amount of dollars to say, this is

00:09:27.280 awesome. Um, you know, the other thing about that too, I think is sometimes like, cause I have

00:09:31.180 companies reach out and I'm like, I don't care what kind of underwear you wear. I don't care what

00:09:35.520 kind of mattresses you sleep on. Like none of that has anything to do with what I talk about. So pick

00:09:39.840 your mattress, pick your underwear, pick your sunglasses, and let's talk about other more important

00:09:44.840 things. That's my perspective anyways. Yeah, I know. I think, and I think for, for podcasts,

00:09:49.400 especially it is more appropriate to have a show that's sponsored by something because we're used

00:09:55.480 to seeing a commercial and you're like, Oh, obviously the entire, let's say, you know, Dallas

00:10:00.200 Cowboys football team, uh, doesn't, uh, endorse, you know, X product just because it's playing during

00:10:06.200 their game. Or it's obvious that that newscaster up there doesn't support those five commercials.

00:10:12.040 I just saw, he doesn't even know what ran, he's just getting ready for the next segment,

00:10:15.560 but those are supporting his show. So I think with a podcast, it's much more appropriate to

00:10:19.320 read off something like, Hey, try this, you know, this mattress, um, they're bringing you the podcast

00:10:24.520 today. Uh, and then you go on and do what you need, what you need to do. It's just, we're more in

00:10:28.280 tune to that from growing up, having watched television with that model. So, uh, so I think that's

00:10:33.880 more appropriate rather than something that's so intimate and personal, like, uh, some of the social media

00:10:39.240 platforms, especially if you're like a gear centric person like me and I use it in the books and

00:10:43.320 people see me using it just in my daily life to then all of a sudden have a sponsored thing in

00:10:47.640 there just does never really, you know, I don't, it didn't really sit right with me, but I, but I

00:10:51.880 think with a podcast or something, um, and I have put some thought into this because I just launched

00:10:56.200 mine, uh, danger close beyond the book. Um, but, uh, we'll talk about that a little later, but, uh,

00:11:02.920 but with that or something like that, I think it's more appropriate to have it sponsored by

00:11:07.160 something and then you just move on. For sure. Yeah. Well, and I think what holds more weight

00:11:12.600 is I see you have, if I, if I can see it correctly, my, I just turned 40. So my eyesight's maybe

00:11:18.040 diminished a little bit, but I, I see an Eberly stock hat you've got on. I've got, I see Sorenex

00:11:23.800 outdoors. I mean, you and I personally know Glenn, we personally know Bert and pops. Like these are guys

00:11:31.080 that, yeah, maybe they're sponsoring some things or they're help, you know, throwing some funds your

00:11:35.320 way to be able to do some cool things and put some cool content out there, but also their friends.

00:11:39.880 Like these are guys that we spend time with, we hunt with, we interact with, we have conversations

00:11:45.080 with, they hold us accountable. We hold them accountable so much more fulfilling and rewarding

00:11:49.240 that way. Yeah. I got my first Eberly stock pack. I think in 2008, I want to say, is that right?

00:11:55.960 Wow. So it's been a little while. And then I got a couple more over the years. Um, so yeah,

00:12:00.680 so I did, you know, yeah, none of that stuff is, uh, has been a sponsor, you know, nothing's been

00:12:05.240 a sponsor yet, except my podcast with, with SIG out of the gate, which was kind of cool. Cause I

00:12:09.160 use that SIG 226 on every deployment. So it's kind of near and dear to my heart. Um, but, uh, yeah,

00:12:14.920 up to this point, it's just been, uh, everything that I use or that tells a story about my character.

00:12:20.360 So sometimes I weave things in that I don't use that I don't like, uh, because it's telling a story

00:12:25.480 about another character. Uh, so you're looking at him and be like, wait, this person, like,

00:12:29.160 you know, just opened up guns and ammo magazine and went through some advertisements and put some

00:12:32.520 stuff. And I was wearing, you put all the bullshit on the villains. Then it sounds like

00:12:37.240 the character that you just need to add a little, maybe comic relief for those of us that know what

00:12:41.160 we're, what we're talking about or lived in this, live this lifestyle or been a part of these

00:12:44.840 different industries, but personally and professionally for so long. Uh, and that's kind of

00:12:48.120 fun for, for me to do. So, um, uh, so yeah, I do. So it does work both ways as far as mentions,

00:12:54.280 particularly in the novels as I develop characters, but if it's more personal, like on my, you know,

00:12:58.200 my Instagram or something like that, uh, everything that I'm using is, uh, stuff that,

00:13:02.440 that I genuinely like and use and, and that sort of thing, or I'll say I'm trying it, you know?

00:13:06.600 Right. Sure.

00:13:07.640 Trying this out. Pretty cool. Can't wait to give it a shot. Can't wait to take in the mountains

00:13:10.520 this year or, or whatever it, it might be. And then if somebody sends me something that I don't

00:13:14.360 like, then I just don't talk about it. I'm just not, you know, I'm not a reviewer. I'm just kind of a

00:13:18.600 user of things. And if it's a fun and productive or think it would help somebody, uh, then I'll,

00:13:22.680 you know, I hold it up and I'll, I'll talk about it. Um, but, uh, but otherwise I'm not going to

00:13:27.000 get on and trash somebody's whatever that they're proud of that they, that they sent me. And it's

00:13:30.840 just might not be for me, you know? Right. Right. Yeah. That is interesting. Cause you get a lot of,

00:13:35.200 I'm sure you get a lot of offers and requests and things sent to you. And it's like, ah, you know,

00:13:39.160 like if all I did was spent time opening packages and reviewing these things, I wouldn't write,

00:13:45.520 but that actually leads to the point that you said earlier. It is. It's great problems again,

00:13:49.160 not complaining, but also, you know, I think a lot of people will write that off as lucky,

00:13:54.200 you know? Oh, well, well, you know, it's nice. You're lucky because all these companies want to

00:13:57.500 send you this stuff. It is, it isn't luck, man. I I've seen you for the past three years. And of

00:14:02.160 course I know you've got a whole, a whole other career prior to what you're doing now that you've

00:14:07.840 built this, you've established this, you know, I've had people say, you know, well, right. You know,

00:14:12.260 it must be nice to be able to talk with these incredible guys. Who do you, who the hell do you

00:14:16.060 think I was six years ago? I wouldn't have had any, any opportunity to talk with Jack or, or,

00:14:21.060 or, or Jocko or Andy Frisilla or Steve Ranella or any of these guys. You think that just happened

00:14:27.100 by happenstance? No, man, I created that and other people afforded me that opportunity,

00:14:32.580 but that took hard work. That isn't something that just, you know, miraculously came out of the

00:14:36.900 woodworks. I even think about you, you know, this, this relatively novice writer who created these

00:14:44.660 incredibly powerful opportunities almost out of the gate. And you might think you got lucky,

00:14:49.080 but no, you forged these relationships with Thor and some of these other guys that, that, that helped

00:14:54.440 you catapult your career to what it is now, three, four years later. Yeah. You have to build it

00:14:59.800 regardless. Um, and so that when that opportunity does present itself or the door cracks just the

00:15:06.560 tiniest little bit, you're ready to kick it in because if that door cracks and you're not ready to

00:15:10.540 kick it in and you're just going to stumble through it and fall into the middle of the room,

00:15:13.920 we're going to get lit up by the enemy. You know, you have to be ready to kick that thing

00:15:17.820 in and take your corner or do your job. You have to be ready to do that. Um, or you can sit around

00:15:22.320 just waiting for that up, like saying everybody else is lucky, I guess. And then all of a sudden

00:15:26.220 you get that door cracked and you're like, uh, hold on and you're not ready. Um, so you have,

00:15:31.080 so regardless whether that door gets opened or not, you got to build it. Uh, and for me that started

00:15:35.840 as a kid, cause I knew I wanted to serve my country in uniform as a seal. And then I wanted to write

00:15:40.680 thrillers. Uh, so all that lifetime of prep for the seal teams, uh, all that lifetime of prep to be an

00:15:47.320 author by reading in the genre, by understanding the, the history of the genre, which books moved

00:15:52.820 the genre forward and why. Um, and it was just a part of me, uh, understanding, uh, Joseph Campbell's

00:15:59.360 here with a thousand faces and his interviews with Bill Moyers and then in 1988 on PBS, uh, the power of

00:16:05.060 myth, uh, incorporating those into, uh, into me as I either viewed a TV show, viewed a movie, read a

00:16:11.900 book. Um, it just all became part of my experience and then studying warfare. Like I didn't just start

00:16:17.020 studying warfare when I go into the seal teams, uh, or wait for someone to give me a class and just be

00:16:22.120 a passive recipient of that knowledge and then go along my way. No, I was actively engaged in studying

00:16:27.720 warfare, terrorism, insurgencies, counterinsurgencies from the earliest of days. My earliest memories are

00:16:32.360 of the 1979 Iranian hostage crisis, are of Walter Cronkite counting those days down that they have

00:16:37.360 been, Americans have been, uh, held hostage in Iran every night with my parents. It's of seeing

00:16:42.260 time magazine, of seeing news week, uh, which was two we got at our house, seeing our, the newspapers

00:16:46.500 that we got at our house, uh, come across with headlines of the Beirut bombings of, uh, TWA 847,

00:16:52.220 all of these different terrorist events through the eighties. And then what later when I'm much older

00:16:55.980 and, uh, uh, in the late eighties, Pan Am 103. So all of these things, I didn't just like see them.

00:17:01.760 No, I read those articles and then I did more research into those articles. I went to the

00:17:06.260 library, I read everything I possibly could. And then back then, you know, you could do a lot of

00:17:10.820 research. You couldn't, now it's maybe a little bit more difficult, even though there's more

00:17:14.340 information. I feel like it's more difficult for people because you have to sift through all that

00:17:18.580 and you have to sift through it all. Um, back then, yeah, you had some primary news sources and

00:17:22.960 then you could go to some, maybe some secondary ones, or you can go to some other ones that are just

00:17:26.680 getting off offhand mentions in a book. But that book then opens up a whole new world for you,

00:17:31.060 even though you went there for something else. Wow. Look what you just discovered by getting

00:17:34.420 to what you, what you wanted to confirm or learn a little bit more about. So that didn't just

00:17:39.340 happen when I woke up one morning as I was getting out of the military and said, let's give this

00:17:43.020 writing thing a try. Uh, what should I do? Maybe I should go back. No, it didn't work that way.

00:17:48.480 It was a whole lifetime of being, uh, preparing myself for what I did as I transitioned out,

00:17:55.380 which was writing novels. So it was a calling, both military and writing, uh, are both callings

00:18:01.100 to me. I didn't look at my time in the military as a career. I don't look at my time now in publishing

00:18:05.480 as a career, both are professions. And I think there's a distinct difference between a profession

00:18:10.860 and a career, uh, and answering the call to a profession is, uh, is something people should

00:18:17.660 listen to. How, how would you, how would you differentiate between the two career versus

00:18:23.660 profession? What would you say is the distinguishing difference?

00:18:27.120 Yeah. For those in the military, I describe it in my novels is that, uh, someone becomes a

00:18:30.960 careerist. And one of the best places to, uh, that illustrates that is an historical fiction

00:18:36.640 piece, um, called once an Eagle by Anton Meyer. And that's one of my most gifted, gifted books.

00:18:42.460 Um, but it follows two guys from before world war one up to Vietnam. And one of them is an officer

00:18:47.980 the whole time. He's like this political creature. He's the careerist. And then Sam Damon is the

00:18:53.500 character's name, uh, enlisted, gets a battlefield commission, uh, in world war one. Uh, and he is

00:18:59.320 the professional. He's the one that listened to that calling. He is in the profession of arms.

00:19:03.340 There's a reason they don't call it the career of arms. You never hear that. It is

00:19:06.320 the profession of arms for a reason yet. Some people join the military as a career choice.

00:19:13.060 Uh, and that, that is fun. That's fine. Um, but is it though? I mean, you say that, but when you say

00:19:18.800 that, it sounds like you're, you're saying it's better to be a professionalist. And at the same

00:19:23.000 time you're saying, but that's fine. Is it fine? I think it's depending on what you're going to,

00:19:27.180 what you're going to do. So if you're coming in to, uh, to learn a trade and get out and go do that

00:19:31.460 trade, if it's like part of your plan, uh, to either get some money for college or, you know,

00:19:36.080 learn a trade and then move on in that trade. Um, it's different than, uh, having a calling

00:19:42.820 and answering that call to serve. It's different. So that is one that is a calling. Uh, Hey, I want

00:19:49.420 to learn some skills in the computer field. I think I'm going to join the military as a way to

00:19:52.980 continue along that path, learn a little something, get some money for college. That's a career.

00:19:56.480 There's two distinctly different ways of, uh, of looking at your time in the military and maybe

00:20:03.180 a career path is, uh, is fulfilling to someone. It's not fulfilling to me. It's a calling. It is a

00:20:08.900 profession, just like with writing. So you would say, and I don't want to put words in your mouth,

00:20:13.900 so tell me if I'm wrong, but that the career path might be more of a strategic, strategic move

00:20:20.020 to something higher, better, grander, more of a calling. Is that what you're saying?

00:20:25.860 Or at least it should be, or maybe it's not a calling. Maybe it's just, I think I can make some

00:20:29.440 money at this, or I can support my family at this. And maybe, you know, maybe you don't think,

00:20:33.140 uh, anything beyond that. Once again, fine. Especially if the guy can come and fix your

00:20:37.540 computer, like that's what I care about in the military. It's a career to him. That's fine.

00:20:41.040 He's moving on, whatever that is. That's, that's what I mean by fine. Like do your job. You'd be

00:20:45.400 a professional. Great. Um, but then if it's a calling to service, I think that's just something

00:20:51.380 that's different. It's innate. Like you didn't wake up one morning and feel like the at age five,

00:20:55.840 six, seven, and feel this calling to fix computers. Um, now if you felt a calling to serve and you

00:21:00.860 join the computer, uh, join the military and that's your, your skillset and that's where

00:21:04.620 you're going, you're passionate about it. Um, and you're, this is your profession. So it's

00:21:08.300 different. So it's kind of those intangibles and you know it, it's one of those things like,

00:21:12.900 like, you know it if you're on the path as a professional and you know it if you're on

00:21:15.640 the path as a career. And, uh, there's our people in the military, even in special operations

00:21:19.900 in the SEAL teams. I talk about them in my novels who are careerists and maybe they didn't

00:21:24.020 start that way. Maybe they got up to a certain rank and realized that they had to become

00:21:27.740 political animals to move forward. Uh, that's a possibility. Or maybe they were careerists the

00:21:32.180 whole time and they just wanted to get to that retirement and they wanted, they saw an admiral

00:21:35.480 one day, they saw a general one day and they were like, I want to do that. And then I can get a,

00:21:39.920 maybe get on one of these, uh, the board of Raytheon or something like, you know, so it's different.

00:21:44.600 The military industrial complex is a real thing. If you haven't listened to the speech,

00:21:48.340 if you only heard that one part of Eisenhower's speech, uh, well, there's more to it.

00:21:52.740 Listen to the whole thing, watch the whole thing, read the whole thing. So you get those two

00:21:56.100 different experiences. Um, and there's a, there, there is an industry up there. If you're, uh,

00:22:01.740 in your last couple of years at the Pentagon and you're a four star or three star, two star,

00:22:05.100 whatever it is, and something comes across your desk from, uh, from Raytheon or from, uh, you know,

00:22:10.060 L3 or, or, you know, Boeing or whatever it is. Uh, and you want to serve on one of those boards

00:22:14.540 and show up to two meetings a year and make, you know, a quarter million dollars, then maybe you sign

00:22:19.080 that thing. I don't know. Well, so you bring up an interesting point on that. If you're talking about

00:22:23.120 the difference between careers and professionalists, I've got so many questions and rabbit holes.

00:22:27.020 I want to type down as you're talking about this. And look, the reason I bring it up is because the

00:22:31.060 men who are listening to this are facing these types of choices, you know? And when you look at

00:22:36.380 a career path and we'll use career defined by what you just said, it's pretty tempting.

00:22:43.420 You know, I can do this for 20 years. I can get promoted. I can get my income. I'll get better

00:22:48.820 opportunities. Maybe I'll run for office. I don't really care about politics all that much,

00:22:52.740 or, or affecting change. But you know, this is how I get notoriety. This is how I get what it is

00:22:57.560 I'm after and provide for my family. That's a pretty tempting thing versus, Hey, you know what?

00:23:03.100 Let me offer a counter to you. Let me tell you that you're going to spend the next decade or more,

00:23:08.020 uh, trying a bunch of different things. All, most of it, 95% of it's not going to work out

00:23:14.020 and, and you're going to fall flat on your face. You're not going to make any money. People are

00:23:17.440 going to ridicule you. And then maybe just maybe in 15, 20 years, maybe you'll find something you're

00:23:22.460 really passionate about. And you'll turn into this more of a professional. It's very tempting

00:23:26.940 to go the career route. And that's why I think most people do. Um, and it, and it's tough,

00:23:32.680 you know, there's a, it's tough because you have to really know yourself. You have to listen

00:23:36.180 to yourself. Um, and you have to answer the call. Um, and you have to, and there's so many ways

00:23:42.520 along the path where you can trip up from a very early age. People are going to discourage you

00:23:47.060 from a very early age, whether it's, uh, intentional or not. Uh, like the looks you

00:23:52.960 get when you tell someone that you want to be a seal are very similar to the looks you get from

00:23:56.980 people when you tell them you want to be an author. Uh, it's like, he'll grow out of it.

00:24:01.220 So I started my, uh, and then, you know, my parents were very encouraging. Um, but, uh, you know,

00:24:07.480 like all parents, they worried that they're, you know, probably kids not going to make it or he's

00:24:10.600 going to stumble. And, you know, you do, everybody's going to stumble. Everybody's going to get

00:24:13.080 knocked down. You got to get up and keep moving forward and you have to get up and keep moving

00:24:15.840 forward in a particular way. That's the other part of that. You have to get up and keep moving

00:24:19.580 forward in a way that's inspiring to your circle, whether it's one person or your family or a family

00:24:24.220 and, uh, friends, whatever, whatever that might be. Um, but I started my retirement speech, uh, in 2016

00:24:30.400 when I got in the military and I told my mom that, uh, uh, I finally grew out of it. So it just took

00:24:35.780 20 years, but, uh, you know, she's more worried from a mom's perspective that you're going to not come

00:24:40.100 home type thing. When you said I grew out of it, what did you grow out of? So people think,

00:24:45.160 oh, he'll grow out of it. Like when you're young and you say you want to be an astronaut,

00:24:48.520 people are like, that's so, that's a sign. Got it. Got it. He'll grow out of it in the mind. So

00:24:53.900 don't say it, but it's in the back of their mind. Right. I want to be a fireman. You know,

00:24:58.760 I can't wait to be a fireman. He'll grow out of it. You know, those things that you say when you,

00:25:02.960 when you're a kid, when you're just pure and, uh, uh, you haven't been, you don't realize that

00:25:08.580 you're getting discouraged with, whether it's a, a look or a, uh, uh, uh, suggestion to go

00:25:15.360 elsewhere that become more and, uh, and more prevalent as you move along in life. Um,

00:25:20.920 or even just a patronizing pat on the head, you know, it's like, sure, sure. That's what you want.

00:25:27.380 Yeah. Good. Oh, that's cute. That's cute. Yeah. Go ahead and do that. But I got that as an adult

00:25:33.160 too. When I, when I started to tell people that I'm, uh, I'm writing a novel, uh, and I kept that

00:25:38.200 close hold in the military. Um, but, uh, but once I was out, you know, I told, started telling people,

00:25:44.440 um, I think during that last couple months, you know, when you're just going around to medical

00:25:48.880 and dental and you're doing all that stuff you need to do to get out, um, I started because people

00:25:52.420 are asking at that point, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? Right. I was like,

00:25:55.260 kind of like, ah, I'm working on a few things, you know, and then people would try to dig deeper.

00:25:59.260 I'd be like, oh, I got some options and opportunity. You know, I try to like, you know, not talk to them

00:26:04.540 about it. Uh, but there are certain trusted agents, certain, uh, certain family that I did

00:26:09.520 talk about, uh, it with, and you get those, those same looks that you got when you were five years

00:26:14.880 old and said you wanted to be an astronaut, like exactly the same, uh, or whatever it, whatever it

00:26:19.820 might be. So, uh, well, and I bet there's a weird stigma. I was going to say, I bet there's a weird

00:26:24.380 stigma in the seal community, especially over the past, I would say five years or so with, oh, you want

00:26:30.000 to be a writer. Yeah. So you're going to write a, a self-help book. Exactly. A novel is a different

00:26:36.000 kind of, kind of a different style of writing. That isn't something that I think is, is that

00:26:40.920 common with the seal community relative to, Hey, let me write a self-help or a leadership book.

00:26:45.940 Yeah, no. And I, and when I was in the, the team, even when I first came in, you know, I didn't,

00:26:50.140 didn't talk about it. I mean, I was solely focused on the task at hand. I knew what I was going to do

00:26:53.180 after, uh, I got out of the military, but, uh, but I didn't, uh, you know, I do that was not at the

00:26:58.820 forefront. I did the same things during the time in the military that I did, uh, in high school or

00:27:03.400 that I did in junior high, uh, which was continuing to read thrillers and continuing to read nonfiction

00:27:08.640 works on warfare to make myself a better operator, a better leader. Uh, cause I thought that's what I

00:27:13.100 owe the guys under my command. I owe them, uh, that, that pendulum between family and the profession

00:27:19.480 is over here. Um, and it has to be because that's what you owe those guys who are taking down range.

00:27:24.460 Uh, that's what you owe their families. That's what you owe the mission in the country.

00:27:28.980 By, by default there. So, so I didn't change anything up while I was in, I wasn't practicing

00:27:34.000 writing or anything like that. I was reading just like I have my entire life. Um, and that

00:27:39.300 prepared me for getting out and moving on to then do that, to then write those same kind of novels that

00:27:45.020 I enjoyed growing up. Was that intentional? Were you reading? I mean, I think you're a little bit of

00:27:49.940 a different, a different beast in that you knew early on what you wanted to do, but as you were reading

00:27:55.980 these books and still serving in the teams, did you know you were reading in preparation for what

00:28:02.560 you were going to do or were you just enjoying the work? Yeah. I didn't look at it in those terms

00:28:06.620 because, uh, I, I started reading at such an early age. It was just always, it was so natural.

00:28:11.860 Uh, so I didn't look at it. I'm doing this so that when I get out, I'll be better prepared to

00:28:18.180 that never crossed my mind, but looking back the benefit of hindsight that did prepare me,

00:28:23.860 if that makes sense. So it wasn't in preparation for, it just happened to, because it was so natural,

00:28:30.020 because it was that calling. Um, so yeah, much, yeah, very authentic and real and just a part of me

00:28:36.960 from my earliest days. My mom was a librarian. So I grew up surrounded by books and this love of

00:28:40.620 reading. So that has never left me and stays today on my, uh, you see, I have a new office

00:28:44.640 here from the last time I do. Books that go three up were, were behind me. Now they're over here on

00:28:49.940 some more industrial shelving. Cause you moved. Did you move? You moved. Yeah. Just down the road.

00:28:53.920 That's right. We're, uh, we're sent a temporary place right now. So I have these industrial shelves

00:28:57.600 and each one of these in front of me here go three deep with my, with my books. Uh, a lot of those

00:29:02.000 are ones that I grew up with. Uh, I still have those books that I enjoyed reading growing up,

00:29:06.320 whether it be terrorism, uh, insurgencies, counterinsurgencies, warfare, or it's those

00:29:09.920 thrillers that I grew up with. Uh, although now I'm going back and getting them in hardcover with,

00:29:14.320 uh, first edition signed, but, uh, but I still, so you're on a mission growing up. Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:20.720 You always have the coolest office too. I look at, tell me about that. Uh, is that's a shotgun

00:29:24.960 above you. Tell me about that shotgun. Yeah. So that's a Parker from 1898. And I was back at,

00:29:29.600 uh, at SIG in New Hampshire and we went on a hunt, an upland, uh, hunt in New Hampshire,

00:29:34.160 and I saw it on the wall, this essentially cabin that was built back in the 1800s. Uh,

00:29:38.480 so everything, the little ceilings are like this, you know, and, uh, and so I saw this on the wall

00:29:43.520 and I started looking at it and the guy that owns the place walked over and he's like, Hey,

00:29:46.880 you want to take it down? And I'm like, Oh yeah, that's awesome. And, uh, I was like, man,

00:29:51.440 this thing is so cool. I'd love to hunt with this once. And, uh, and he's like, well, it's for sale.

00:29:56.480 Like really? And, uh, so anyway, now it's here. Uh,

00:29:59.920 Nice. Have you hunted with it? Uh, not yet. I want to get to just arrived like a month ago,

00:30:04.880 but, uh, you need to get some low velocity loads because it was made back then. Uh,

00:30:08.720 right. Probably would handle something, but yeah, you don't want to find out.

00:30:12.080 Yeah, exactly. I'm going to, I'll do the, I'll do the research, get the right low velocity loads.

00:30:16.400 And then I want to take it on at least one hunt and then, uh, then, you know, then put it back.

00:30:19.520 It's pretty cool. I don't know when that, uh, Utah spring turkey season starts, but, uh,

00:30:23.680 sounds like it's a perfect gun to take a turkey. I know I'm going to be missing it this year. Cause it's so busy.

00:30:27.840 It's just incredible. It's crazy right now at the series. Just got back from LA.

00:30:31.440 I know. Tell me about that. How was that?

00:30:33.600 It was crazy. Yeah. I drove to LA, um, COVID protocols in place for the series.

00:30:38.720 So I was there five days. I was tested four times. Um,

00:30:42.000 Really? Uh, yeah. They're very serious about it, obviously. Uh, but crazy. 350 people

00:30:49.040 working on the set. The 350 people have jobs and Chris Pratt.

00:30:54.640 Because of you. Well, because Chris Pratt and Antoine Fuqua took a risk on me.

00:30:59.440 No, I know. I know there's elements that come into play, but also that wouldn't be possible

00:31:06.000 if it weren't for you. Yeah. I guess there is that there, there is that.

00:31:09.840 I mean, look, I know you're being humble. I know you're being modest, but I want people to know,

00:31:13.600 like you, you put yourself out there and you created this and now you're creating other

00:31:20.000 opportunities for hundreds and hundreds of people. That's a pretty powerful thing.

00:31:24.000 It's crazy. And it wouldn't be possible without my friend, Jared Shaw, who is a seal with me and

00:31:28.720 who called me five years after he got out of the military, uh, right before my book came out and

00:31:33.920 wanted to call and thank me for what I did for him in the seal teams. And I couldn't even remember

00:31:37.520 what that was. He calls me in November of 2017. The first book came out in March of 2018. So

00:31:42.560 a few months before. And, uh, and he's like, Hey, uh, first, he's like, do you remember me?

00:31:47.280 And I'm like, of course, Jared, I remember you. How's it going? Right. Right. And he's like, Hey,

00:31:51.680 I always wanted to thank you for sitting me down as I was leaving the seal teams,

00:31:55.600 talking to me about transition, introducing me to people in the private sector. Uh, no one else

00:31:59.360 did that for me. And I always wanted to thank you. And I was like, no problem, buddy. How's it going?

00:32:04.080 And, uh, he said, well, it's going great, but I heard you wrote a book and I said, yeah,

00:32:07.520 it's coming out in a few months. I have this galley copy thing, which is like a rough draft,

00:32:11.120 which I know you've, you've, you've, you've gotten a few of those. Oh yeah.

00:32:13.840 But, uh, uh, I'm like, I can send you that it's, it comes out in March. And he's like,

00:32:17.760 yeah, I'd love to check it out, but I'd like to also give it to a friend of mine.

00:32:20.320 And I was like, yeah, no problem. Who's that? And he said, Chris Pratt. So Jared took a risk on me.

00:32:25.440 He read it first. He loved it. He then gave it to Chris and said, Chris, this is your next project.

00:32:30.720 Wow. And Chris read it on a plane. And, uh, I have a picture of him reading it for the first time

00:32:34.720 in, uh, December of 2018, like December 28th. And then a week later he called it,

00:32:39.920 called and wanted to option it. Uh, and I thought of him playing the role the whole time,

00:32:43.600 which is crazy because he'd only done parks and rec and zero dark 30 up until that. And so no

00:32:48.800 guardian. Oh, was he in zero dark 30? I, I, very small role as a seal. Okay.

00:32:53.040 As a seal. Yeah. And I knew he hadn't done anything like this. He hadn't done anything dark,

00:32:57.520 gritty. Um, and, and I thought, this is the guy that can do this. And he's a great guy. Uh,

00:33:03.040 and then we met later and now we're friends and, and he's, he's just amazing. But, uh, that's the crazy

00:33:07.520 part is I thought of him playing the role and then I thought of Antoine directing, uh, and Antoine

00:33:12.960 did a training day, did the replacement killers, did tears of the sun, Magnificent seven train, uh,

00:33:18.400 uh, equalizer. And he's just one of the most amazing people I've ever met in my life. Just so

00:33:23.920 cool. So humble, so talented. Um, just, just a great guy and him and Chris set the tone on the set.

00:33:29.760 So those guys setting the tone for everybody else, just, just so decent, such amazing humans,

00:33:35.360 um, that that whole set felt like a team. And so many people came up to me and were like, Hey,

00:33:39.840 we've worked a lot of movies and none have felt like this. And that wasn't just one person that

00:33:44.960 was multiple people coming up to me and saying these things, uh, perhaps you services person.

00:33:50.160 Who's like a land cruiser fan. And I checked, he has an awesome FJ 60. We're checking out,

00:33:54.320 talked about that for like an hour, um, to people coming up and saying, Oh, my son's, uh, is in the

00:33:58.720 Marine Marine Corps bootcamp. He's a huge fan. And I've had a box of books with me. So I'm like,

00:34:02.720 yeah, what's his name? And here you go. And all of them said they've never felt this on a set before

00:34:08.400 that. It feels like a team. It feels like family. And I think that's all due to Chris and Antoine

00:34:13.440 at that, that high level. And cause that filters down to everybody on that set. And it was pretty

00:34:18.240 cool. Three and 50 people explosions, those little chords they have to on the stuntman,

00:34:22.720 yanking them back with the explosion, flipping them off walls. Like it was insane. It was crazy.

00:34:27.520 Is Chris doing a lot of the stunts himself? Uh, not those ones, but, uh, yeah, he'll do a ton of

00:34:32.320 stunts, but, uh, yeah, I'd get blown up and like smash their heads into things like that was, uh,

00:34:37.440 that's pretty intense, man. Some of those guys just like beat themselves down in order to get the shot

00:34:43.120 and, and tell the story. It's pretty incredible what those guys do. I mean, and they're, and they are

00:34:48.000 real athletic. They are real athletes. Man, I just got to hit the pause button on the conversation very

00:34:54.720 quickly. Uh, it's no surprise to you that over the past 12 months or so, uh, they've been very, uh,

00:35:01.040 eventful to say the least. Uh, and that's why with as many variables that we, as men are likely to face,

00:35:07.040 it's crucial that we be prepared for whatever may come after all, David Gilmore said the real man

00:35:13.600 gains renown by standing between his family and destruction, absorbing the blows of fate with

00:35:18.560 equanimity. I had to look up what equanimity was initially. It's with calmness, focus, clarity,

00:35:24.160 resolve. That's our role as men. Uh, and that's exactly what we're talking about in the iron

00:35:29.040 council this month. We're learning and discussing and challenging each other to become more prepared

00:35:33.680 for emergencies, natural disasters, violent encounters, and anything else that we may

00:35:39.200 potentially run against. So if you want to learn more about being prepared and banding with men who

00:35:44.720 will teach you and hold you accountable for doing so join us in our exclusive brotherhood,

00:35:49.360 the iron council by going to order of men.com slash iron council. Again, that's order of

00:35:55.120 man.com slash iron council guys. You can do that after the show for now, get back to it with Jack.

00:36:02.480 Oh yeah. Chris's double stunt double is big dude and he is so nimble and it's incredible. I think

00:36:09.040 you're online. There's some videos of him maybe for, uh, one of the Avengers movies doing like these

00:36:13.200 flips and stuff, a huge dude that you think is just going to be like a brawler, like just

00:36:18.000 right. Right. Just stay out of his way. He is like crazy with these flips and it's crazy,

00:36:23.600 but he got blown up and like smashed into this wall. And there's a part Chris, uh,

00:36:26.880 Chris has to hit his, uh, my character, James Reese played by Christine. He said,

00:36:30.240 hit his head really hard. He stunt double really hit his head hard. I could not believe it. Like it,

00:36:35.600 it looks brutal when you see it. I was like, ah, you know what I saw? Cause I'm out there.

00:36:39.920 Cringe. Well, you know what it's like real life too. Yeah. It wasn't fake. Like the walls weren't

00:36:45.520 soft. Uh, he has a helmet on, uh, like a, you know, military, you know, Mitch helmet thing on,

00:36:50.480 uh, like an obstacle or helmet, but still like his neck snapping back crashing. Like that's a real

00:36:55.360 thing. And, uh, I kind of thought it would be different. I thought they'd be like a padded area,

00:36:59.360 like superimposed or something, but no, that's like yank on these, on these, uh, cord cable rope things

00:37:05.680 and spinning and smashing. And it's crazy. It was great. It was awesome. It was such

00:37:09.840 a cool experience. Oh, I imagine. I imagine to be able to see it come to life, like literally

00:37:14.400 off of the words of the page and, and, and, and come into life and you can see it. What's it like

00:37:19.920 working with Chris? Cause from my perspective, I know you've hunted with him and done other things

00:37:23.520 with him, but from my perspective, he seems to be a bit of an anomaly in, in Hollywood. This is a guy

00:37:29.520 who has some, uh, beliefs that don't align with, I would say Hollywood values. Uh, and he's willing

00:37:36.240 to stand up for him. He's willing to talk about him publicly and be very vocal about it at his

00:37:42.160 potentially own detriment when it comes to his career. Uh, what, what is it like working with

00:37:46.720 that guy? Yeah. Well, we've known each other for a while now and he's just so kind. Like that's the,

00:37:53.680 why he can still operate in Hollywood is because he's so genuinely kind and good. So it's hard,

00:38:00.880 even if you don't believe those things, it's hard to not like that guy. Right.

00:38:05.360 Me as a, as an author to have a character that was likable. So even on the page, I wanted people

00:38:11.840 to like my main character because they're going to spend all this time with him, whether they're

00:38:15.680 reading the novels or they're listening, like you don't want to spend time with someone you don't

00:38:19.040 like. Of course it's important for like, and I thought, you know, Magnum, like everybody loved

00:38:22.880 Magnum in the eighties, but he could flip that switch. Boom. And he could get the job done. Uh,

00:38:27.120 first time in television history where a protagonist kills an antagonist on a show who is not armed.

00:38:32.800 Uh, and it was the best. Oh, is that right? From Magnum PI? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

00:38:38.240 Great episode. Uh, best ending in, uh, in TV history, uh, in my opinion. Um, so until,

00:38:46.160 the new series comes out. That's right. That's right. Uh, but I knew I needed that. And I thought,

00:38:51.360 who is an actor that can pull that off? Uh, that's Chris Pratt. Cause he's going to do some

00:38:55.840 things in this that are going to surprise people and, uh, and having a likable going into that,

00:39:00.880 where you have a personal and professional reputation, um, where you, where your character

00:39:05.840 is such that people already look up to you and like you, that's important because now you're

00:39:09.920 doing something dark, you're doing something gritty. So he is a person to play James Reese.

00:39:13.840 And I saw him, you know, every day on set, all the stuff on, he is James Reese. It is awesome.

00:39:18.960 Yeah. Because you, you look at Andy, what's the name? Andy Dwight Dwyer. So I can't remember his last name.

00:39:24.400 And that's not, that's not James Reese. That's right. And then you see a little bit of, uh,

00:39:28.880 what is he? And I don't watch the Avengers stuff, star Lord or whatever his name is. Yeah. And, uh,

00:39:35.360 you know, maybe a little bit more, I mean, closely aligned, or you see him in, um,

00:39:40.160 I'm going to world. Yeah. Yeah. I'm talking about my ignorance here. Cause I don't watch a whole lot

00:39:44.480 of movies, but that's not the role. So are you telling me, so here's what I'm understanding.

00:39:49.440 You're saying that Hollywood generally, I'm just saying like Hollywood is, you know, a general thing.

00:39:54.720 Affords him some leniency because of his personality or his skillset in general, but it's

00:40:00.080 just like when you have a conversation with someone you don't agree with, but you like them,

00:40:05.200 they are thoughtful, they are considerate, they're a good person. And you know that they just happen

00:40:09.920 to hold a different belief than you. So it's no different, um, than that. I think that's really,

00:40:14.400 rather than someone who is being, uh, incendiary intentionally, or is just generally a,

00:40:20.080 you get a bad feeling from them or you're, they're just not, you just get a sense that

00:40:24.000 me, this doesn't seem like a very good person. Like he just, whatever that is, whatever that

00:40:27.600 thing is, you know, Chris has the opposite of that. Like he is a good person and that comes through.

00:40:32.880 So, um, and on set, all those people that were coming up to me have people that it was crazy.

00:40:38.400 Like I'm standing next to Chris and you know, we're, we're hanging out and people are coming

00:40:41.200 up and like, Hey, get a picture. And I kind of move aside thinking they're talking to Chris.

00:40:43.760 And they're like, no, with you.

00:40:46.080 Really crazy. It was amazing behind me or what? It was so cool. I'm like, yes,

00:40:52.400 let me sign all the books for you. You're awesome. Uh, so yeah, that was, that was super fun to be

00:40:57.440 able to do that. But you know, on that set of 350 people, um, you know, probably people hold different,

00:41:02.880 different beliefs and they've seen you on, you know, Instagram or whatever. And they probably know

00:41:06.880 that, but, uh, but everyone was so kind and so thoughtful and so welcoming. And, uh, you know,

00:41:12.240 I made a point to come up and, and, you know, say hi. And it was just, and they also saw,

00:41:16.240 it was like a reunion. We had like 10, 12 seals that I served with on set. Uh, one just acting

00:41:22.080 or consulting both. So Jared, the guy I talked about, uh, plays a character in the book that,

00:41:28.960 uh, speaking role, big role. Uh, it's awesome. And he crushed it. I could not believe, like I saw him

00:41:35.600 on the screen when I'm watching the playbacks or I'm watching it live. And then I'm watching

00:41:39.040 the playbacks on the, on the screen. And I was so impressed. Um, just incredible. So we have him

00:41:45.440 and in a speaking role, other seals in there that are playing, playing seals. So they move together.

00:41:50.240 So they move, I mean, I felt like we could go and like take down a compound with this group,

00:41:54.320 right. As I'm watching, I'm like these guys, cause I knew him, I went down range, went to Iraq,

00:41:58.080 uh, with one of them. And, uh, and so it's a, it was like this, this sense, like a reunion.

00:42:03.680 Everybody sees us come up to each other and we haven't seen each other in a few years in a couple of

00:42:07.120 cases. And so we're, we're talking and hanging out and, you know, getting reacquainted. And,

00:42:11.600 uh, it was amazing. So we have technical advisor overall doing this action stuff seal. Uh, we have

00:42:17.360 Antoine's, uh, technical advisor, uh, with him also a personal one seal made amazing guy. Uh,

00:42:24.240 Garrett golden, uh, Ray Mendoza is the other guy who's doing the, the technical advising for this.

00:42:28.960 And then you have all the seals in there that are, that are doing their, doing their thing and just

00:42:32.000 feeding off each other, just like we would if we went into a house like right now to go take it down.

00:42:36.160 Um, and all that comes across on screen. So everybody's seeing that they're seeing that

00:42:39.760 camaraderie, they're seeing that teamwork. So I think that fed into it as well, but it was just a,

00:42:43.840 it was a special week on set. Does it feel, um, well, let me say it this way. When I was in the

00:42:49.840 military and it wasn't nearly to the degree that you were, we would get so frustrated with the dog,

00:42:55.200 you know, the dog and pony show, right. Where they'd march us out on the parade field and they'd show us

00:42:59.200 off and, you know, as part of the, the regalia of the military. And I, I get it. I understand there's

00:43:03.760 tradition there. I think there's value to that, of course, but it was so, it was infuriating,

00:43:07.920 frankly. Do you feel like the guys that you were in the teams with had any of those same thoughts

00:43:14.640 as they were putting on a performance as opposed to actually engaged in the activity on set?

00:43:21.440 Yeah, no, they, they all are now doing these things. They're all doing their stunt coordinators.

00:43:25.840 They're stuntmen. They're, uh, they're starting acting. They're, they're writers. Um, Kenny Sheard,

00:43:30.720 may have some great two rates, uh, short films that are out there. Uh, right now you probably

00:43:34.640 find if you go to his, to his Instagram. Um, but, uh, they're all people that have now transitioned

00:43:39.520 out of the military and they're doing these other things. And in this case, they want to be in films

00:43:44.880 like this. They want to learn that trade. They want to build on that foundation of the seal teams

00:43:48.880 and then start building on a new foundation on above that on what their next calling in life is. And in

00:43:54.080 this case, it's either acting or writing or maybe directing, uh, for some of them want to do that one day,

00:43:58.400 but they're starting to build that up and learn that trade. Um, so they all want to be there.

00:44:02.480 They weren't sent over from the seal teams to do it. Sure. Right. They're not fresh,

00:44:05.840 fresh out of the teams or something. Yeah, no, there's no idea what they're doing.

00:44:08.640 They're just having some fun, you know, there's now we're doing it for fun. Now,

00:44:11.120 you know, the, uh, the, the risks of screwing something up is a lot less dire. You get to do a

00:44:15.440 retake, you know what I mean? For sure. You don't get dead if you miss, miss your cue. Right.

00:44:21.040 Exactly. Uh, and it's a lot of fun. It was a lot of work though. You were working all night with all

00:44:26.560 of these people. Like I, before I didn't have an appreciation for just how hard people work in

00:44:30.960 Hollywood. Cause you see, uh, you know, your, your impression is that, oh, everything's taken

00:44:37.360 care of. Oh, let's look at this person complaining about this or whatever it is. Everybody on that set

00:44:43.040 is working so hard. They're away from their families. In some cases they're coming from other

00:44:47.600 states or to come and do this for a certain amount of time. And in this case, it's a long time. It's,

00:44:52.240 it's months and months, uh, being involved with this production. Life goes on during that timeframe.

00:44:57.520 Um, just like it would on a deployment, things are happening at home while they're here on the set

00:45:02.080 for like 12 hours at a time going about this, you know, going about doing their job to be their

00:45:07.920 part of this team. That's making this thing. That's now right. That's a series for Amazon. So

00:45:14.480 I have so much more appreciation for how hard people work, uh, in, in that profession than I

00:45:20.640 ever did before having now seen it with my own eyes. Like it's, it's, uh, just like anything else

00:45:26.240 you're going to put in, it depends on the person, how much work they're going to put in. But

00:45:30.240 in this case, everyone I saw was crushing it and they were working so hard, uh, their particular

00:45:36.000 task. So, so cool. I think we have a tendency to believe that this is like, you know, that the kids

00:45:40.960 you'd see at the high school play where they, you know, they'd practice for a couple hours after

00:45:44.320 school. This is a profession, you know, like these guys are, are deep into what they're doing and

00:45:51.760 they're putting in long days. And look, if you strip everything else else away, they're actually

00:45:57.440 pretending to be somebody different, which has got to be exhausting. It's got to be completely

00:46:03.760 exhausting to get into character. Oh, totally. I mean, you're on, um, and in some of these cases

00:46:09.120 with these stars, they're on the second they leave their house in the morning.

00:46:12.240 Is that right? They leave their house. There's paparazzi outside. Yeah, true. Good point.

00:46:16.960 Big stars, uh, that are looking for them to do anything. So in order to give them some negative

00:46:21.600 press so they can get some clicks, so they can get to sell the photo or, or whatever it might be.

00:46:26.480 Uh, and if you're a genuinely nice person, as soon as you leave that house, you don't change.

00:46:30.400 You will still want to help people. You're still want to, but now when you leave that house,

00:46:34.240 you have, oh, people are trying to get you. Everybody wants, yeah, something. So now I

00:46:39.120 totally get it. So I'm, I was always fairly, you know, you know, forgiving, uh, when I see,

00:46:45.600 saw somebody in the public eye, you know, mess up, uh, or, you know, do something maybe out of

00:46:50.880 character or get, get shown in a certain light for, I was always, but now I get it. Now I really

00:46:56.240 get it because, uh, yeah, the only time that, that you are not being essentially photographed in some

00:47:01.920 people's cases is, uh, you know, when you're behind closed doors. So it's a very interesting,

00:47:06.320 sure. Yeah. It's a very interesting dynamic out there, but, um, but point being, yeah,

00:47:11.040 then they get to set and then they're on also, uh, and then at least that and they're on until

00:47:14.800 they get home and take a breath. And it's not that they change. I think it's probably harder if you're

00:47:19.600 a genuinely good person, because that's what you want to do. You want to help people. You want to give,

00:47:23.440 uh, to people. And, um, so now I understand why people have barriers in place.

00:47:29.680 Yeah. You couldn't live. You couldn't live. Otherwise you couldn't do your job.

00:47:32.960 Well, I think even to a degree, you see that through yourself or even myself again,

00:47:37.280 to a very small degree, it's like, I can't answer every message. I can't do everything

00:47:42.320 people want. I can't say yes to every response. It's, it's just, it's impossible. Let alone some

00:47:49.120 mega star who who's getting inundated at an infinite number of, uh, or an infinite rate that,

00:47:53.920 that I, or you maybe personally are. Exactly. At this point, I'm still like, my wife goes to bed.

00:47:58.320 I'm still up at night trying to thank everybody. Cause it's not for social media. Uh, you know,

00:48:02.640 the power of that is me being able to thank people because I would not be able to do what I love doing,

00:48:07.440 which is writing without the people who took a risk on me as a new author. And then told a friend.

00:48:12.320 Right. And the third novel, Savage Son made the New York times list before I was on Rogan,

00:48:17.120 before I was on Tucker Carlson, uh, before Chris mentioned anything.

00:48:20.000 Well, it's cause the order man podcast.

00:48:21.520 No, it was, it was, I traced it back now that we have these analytics and data and it was totally

00:48:27.680 because of the podcast. I knew it. Actually, the only reason I wanted to invite you on is to get

00:48:32.160 the accolades from helping you reach the New York times bestselling list on that, on that particular

00:48:36.400 book. Well, that's my point. That's my point is that you did, um, without you, um, without these,

00:48:41.920 you know, Andy, without these, without this group of people that we trust and that we try to help,

00:48:47.520 help one another. Um, without that, it doesn't, it doesn't happen. Uh, so, and it, that includes

00:48:52.880 the person who has one follower who bought the book and told that follower and reached out and

00:48:58.800 made a comment. So I want to try to at least give that like heart or a thank you at the end of the

00:49:03.440 day. So something harder to do that. But before I go to bed, like everybody else is asleep and I'm

00:49:08.000 trying to go through and I'm like, thank you. I sincerely appreciate it because it does come

00:49:11.840 from a real place. Cause back in 1985, if you had done this, you wouldn't be able to reach out.

00:49:16.240 Just, you know, you wouldn't be able to thank anyone, uh, except in like your one interview

00:49:20.960 that you had, maybe with a magazine, you'd be able to say, Hey, thank you to everybody that, uh,

00:49:25.120 that, that, that bought this book or, or told a friend or whatever. Uh, but now you can engage.

00:49:29.920 And the reason that these, this series is successful is because of that engagement,

00:49:34.560 that grassroots effort from veterans, veteran owned companies, uh, from, uh, friends,

00:49:39.840 from tactical shooters, from hunters, from readers, like all these people at this grassroots.

00:49:44.400 And that made it, that made it powerful. Um, that was, that was an authentic, like,

00:49:50.240 it was like an, a, a real thing that people had to risk time on because I was brand new

00:49:55.200 and that's their most valuable commodity. And they took that time. So I want to be, uh,

00:50:01.600 I feel as I'm writing, I owe them, you know, my best efforts and I owe them obviously, uh, to be

00:50:07.520 thoughtful in anything that I do when I write it, whether that's the novel or that's an Instagram

00:50:11.440 post or a response to someone's question. Um, like I owe them that requisite time, energy,

00:50:16.560 and effort into that response because of that trust that's been built up with the readership,

00:50:21.440 with that audience. Um, rather than just, uh, you know, I don't take it for granted is what

00:50:25.520 I mean to say. Like I really appreciate all that support and I'll, I'll never forget it.

00:50:30.800 How do you reconcile the fact that it's becoming increasingly difficult to do that on a personal level

00:50:37.760 and having the desire to do it? That's tough. That's tough. Like I probably should have stopped

00:50:42.480 staying up till like two in the morning to respond over things a long time ago. Right.

00:50:46.160 Right. Uh, so yeah, eventually it won't be, well, I shouldn't say that if things continue along the

00:50:53.120 trajectory that, that they've been on, then it will be increasingly difficult to, uh, respond to

00:50:58.240 everybody. But, but, uh, but at this point I'm still, still trying to do it. Uh, and at some point,

00:51:02.960 you know, it might not be, be possible anymore. And you know, that that's just how, how things

00:51:07.200 progress, but it doesn't mean that I feel any less grateful. Sure. That's, that's for sure.

00:51:12.080 Yeah. I want to go back to something you said about Chris. You said he's, you know,

00:51:16.000 a nice person. He's a kind person. You can't help but like him, but that's actually you too. I hope

00:51:20.880 you acknowledge that. And I wanted to pay you that compliment. I think the first time that you and I

00:51:25.120 actually had a real conversation was when we did our first podcast, which I think was roughly three years

00:51:30.240 ago and you were gracious enough to invite me into your home. I met your family. Um, we broke bread

00:51:37.360 together, you know, and so we spent time together. And then not only that, as I was leaving, I don't

00:51:43.280 know if you remember this, uh, but you said, Hey, I have some extra meat from my hunt. And I believe,

00:51:48.640 if I remember correctly, you gave me some elk meat and maybe some venison and you sent me on my way.

00:51:53.440 And our interactions since then have been nothing, but like, you don't, I've been trying to think

00:51:59.600 about a word, like, how would I describe you? And, and I, and I can think of a genuine man,

00:52:05.200 a decent person, and also somebody who's extremely capable of getting the job done in some very dire

00:52:13.360 circumstances. And it's interesting because it's a bit of a dichotomy. You know, you think about these

00:52:20.440 hardened warriors and you think these guys are bad-asses and, and, and you know it as soon as

00:52:26.440 you see them. And I say this out of the utmost respect I have for you. You are a very unassuming

00:52:32.440 individual when it comes to your capabilities and skill sets. Would you agree with that? What are your

00:52:37.480 thoughts about that? Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Um, yeah, I think it'd be exhausting to be on

00:52:42.440 all the time. Um, and you know, by that, I mean, I don't need to do cartwheels from shadow to shadow,

00:52:50.040 as I'm, you know, working my way through, through life. Uh, what's important is to have,

00:52:54.520 have my head up and be aware because it's my responsibility as a, as a husband, as a father,

00:52:59.000 to be in that role as a, as a protector. Um, but it doesn't mean I'd be like, kids go, you know,

00:53:04.440 all right. That's what you think, right? You think that's always on, he's gotta be right. Or this is

00:53:11.080 him. You're on in the sense that, uh, that you're situationally aware that you realize that, uh, that

00:53:17.960 society is fragile. You realize that not everyone out there is, uh, is looking to lend you a helping

00:53:24.280 hand. Um, that's a, you're responsible for the safety of your kids, of your wife, whatever it,

00:53:29.640 you know, whatever it might be. Um, so, and, and to do that, it means you need to be aware. You

00:53:36.280 need to, you need to train. Um, it doesn't mean you need to make everybody else around you, uh,

00:53:41.880 on edge all the time because you're doing, you know, you're doing these ninja rolls from shadow

00:53:46.600 to shadow. Um, that's what we think of when we think Navy seal, we think they get up at, you know,

00:53:51.080 3 a.m. And they're doing, like you said, ninja rolls and they're hyper alert, hyper awake. Yeah.

00:53:56.920 That that's what we think of. I think the general person would think that about an individual,

00:54:00.440 but like, I know you, uh, another individual I think of is JP Danell. Yeah. Yeah. You know, man,

00:54:07.720 what a, what a great human being. He was up here last week and, and spending some time with origin

00:54:12.600 and doing training. And we got, we got the role, uh, in jujitsu. And that's another one who's like,

00:54:18.840 you know, this guy could very seriously do some, some damage if, if needs be in a controlled

00:54:27.640 environment. And yet he doesn't wear that and you don't wear that, you know? And it's very interesting

00:54:33.480 to me. Yeah. I mean, part of that's probably, um, is, is probably semi-primal in that, uh, you know,

00:54:43.880 you want to, when you do strike, you want it to be a surprise. I mean, that's part of,

00:54:49.880 you know, putting an ambush out there. Um, and you know, there's no, you know, there's no reason.

00:54:55.160 I also grew up with a lot of eighties movies, you know? So when we're talking like, uh, like

00:54:59.080 roadhouse or something, be nice until it's time to not be nice. Yeah. That's a good advice right

00:55:04.040 there. Like, why not? Um, you know, why, why, uh, it would be exhausting to go through life any other

00:55:10.200 way, I think. And, uh, you know, for me, I always try to, you know, pass on to the kids and let them

00:55:14.520 know that, uh, it's important to, to never miss an opportunity to make somebody's day. Um, like,

00:55:20.120 you know, go out of your way to make somebody's day. Um, that's important, I think. Um, but, uh,

00:55:26.280 but you could do the opposite and some people do do the opposite, particularly online. And someone

00:55:30.920 told me a good, great quote. Was it Antoine? I forget who did it this week. It wasn't even a

00:55:34.360 quote. It was just a term. Um, they called it digital courage and, uh, instead of liquid courage,

00:55:40.280 digital courage from behind that. Yeah. I was like, I'm going to write that down and use that.

00:55:44.760 And everybody's a bigger bad-ass than they really are in real life. Right. So there's a lot of that going

00:55:49.000 around, you know, and you can either contribute to that or, uh, you know, or you can take a different

00:55:53.880 tact. So I try to, you know, keep my interactions online, positive, uh, thoughtful, uh, most

00:56:00.120 importantly. Uh, and then that's why I started that podcast, which just came out. So danger close

00:56:05.640 beyond the books with Jack Carr, uh, so that I could go more in depth on these things that lend

00:56:10.040 themselves better to long form conversation than a one sentence reply on Twitter or Instagram to

00:56:16.920 someone who's just looking to get, be annoyed at it or to the strike back at it or to interpret it

00:56:21.800 a certain way because, cause they're miserable or whatever, whatever it is. Uh, you know,

00:56:26.120 those sorts of platforms don't really lend themselves to, uh, discussing some of these

00:56:30.760 issues through, uh, through the nuance that's required. So, uh, so the podcast was a way to,

00:56:35.800 to do that because I was getting, I'm getting all these questions all the time and I have conversations

00:56:39.320 with amazing people all the time. So I can't wait for you to come on. Um, and we'll do it.

00:56:43.320 Well, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll turn the tables and I'll get back to you for a little bit.

00:56:47.240 I'm really, it's a little different than that. I'm definitely looking forward to talking to

00:56:52.840 people that, uh, that have only, you know, even though it's a conversation, it's different when

00:56:57.720 you, when you flip it, uh, which is cool. I did with Andy stumped the other day, everyone cleared

00:57:01.240 hot. Uh, and then I did mine and, uh, and, uh, so that hit that'll launch in a week or two, but, uh,

00:57:08.440 yeah, so it is different. It is different, but I'm looking forward to that because,

00:57:11.880 because I get to get to ask you some cool stuff that we maybe haven't had a chance to, to ask,

00:57:16.440 or maybe I thought I knew, but I'm not quite so sure of, and it just kind of forces us to sit

00:57:19.720 down and we don't have that much time. And especially you're in Maine. Now I'm still in

00:57:22.920 Utah. Uh, it's an excuse to sit down and get to hang out for a little bit, which is looking forward

00:57:28.200 to most about the podcast is sitting down and talking to people, um, that I already know,

00:57:33.160 but we're both so busy that we don't have a time to do it, but now we have an excuse to do it.

00:57:37.720 Right. Yeah. I remember, I think one of the first times we sat down, Trevor Thompson actually came

00:57:42.600 and I think he popped by cause he was in the area. And so then him and I did a podcast and I

00:57:46.840 think we all did a podcast together or something. I can't remember exactly what we did, but that was

00:57:51.560 it. It's so much fun. Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. No, I was going to say that house is like a, uh,

00:57:56.600 and, and this one too is like a, a way station for, um, you know, special operators, you know,

00:58:03.560 for, uh, for CIA people, FBI people, uh, hunters, you know, it's like, it's crazy. The people that

00:58:09.960 pass through and, uh, and drop in to say, hi, you know, Kyle Lamb just drops by for the day,

00:58:14.600 you know, Delta Force, Mogadishu, awesome guy. Um, and we're like, let's, let's, let's do a podcast.

00:58:19.800 Uh, and, and, uh, so the kids are getting exposed to some really interesting people, which is kind of

00:58:25.400 cool. That's a great point. The kids are getting interest introduced to some interesting people. I

00:58:30.360 thought that as well, you know, we, we, we've got John Lovell. I think, you know, John, he's coming up,

00:58:34.840 uh, this week. JP was here last week. We had Chad Wright was here the week before. And so it's

00:58:41.860 like rolling with Jocko at some point. I think I saw your kids with him maybe like a year ago.

00:58:45.560 Yeah. Last couple of years ago or whatever it was spent some time. Like it's incredible that you can

00:58:51.080 give your, and you know what? We're in this really interesting environment with the, the,

00:58:55.140 the fallout from COVID where people are isolated from themselves and we're craving

00:59:00.300 personal and human interaction, getting together face-to-face, shaking hands, hugging, training,

00:59:06.640 whatever that looks like. And, and so the podcast, I'm so glad you've started your podcast. We,

00:59:11.280 cause we've talked about this for about a year or so. Uh, I'm so glad that you've started it because

00:59:16.160 people are craving real conversations. We're so sick of, you know, the, the, the, the 40 character

00:59:24.800 quip, you know, that, that, that, that goes after something that really is just not that important

00:59:29.800 or the quick snippet of a picture that's filtered and curated and just the right light and context.

00:59:35.400 So everybody clicks like and follow and whatever. And we really want real interactions,

00:59:41.080 which I think is the value of what both you and I are doing here.

00:59:44.680 Yeah, no, absolutely. In the, uh, yeah, that, that social media is definitely an interesting animal.

00:59:50.040 And, uh, I continue to see, you know, I continue to be fascinated by it. Uh, it gives me a lot of

00:59:55.240 ammunition to use as I develop characters, uh, novels as well. But then, man, those, some of those

01:00:01.340 comments do get you, you know, uh, you know, people think you're a seal and you all this tough,

01:00:05.460 you know, you're super thick skin and all that. But like when I'm doing that, when I'm going down

01:00:09.020 that list at the end of the night and I'm, you know, I'm saying thank you. And it's like two in the

01:00:12.240 morning and I'm, I'm doing that. And then you get that one comment that someone like threw in

01:00:16.240 there. It just gets you for some reason. You're not going to respond to it. You know,

01:00:20.260 maybe you just even like it or maybe you don't do anything at all for my case. Anyway, although

01:00:23.820 you want to engage, you just know that it's not productive to engage, but still, and then you're

01:00:28.320 going to bend them wide awake, just thinking about not the hundred positive comments. And you know,

01:00:33.800 what's interesting about it is they're so good at hitting the right buttons. Like these are

01:00:38.260 psychological geniuses because they are so good at just honing in on that one thing. I don't know how

01:00:45.920 they do it. Like there's obviously some sort of skillset involved with that, even though these

01:00:50.640 people are just trolling you. It's, it's, it's pretty wild, man. It is, it is. But, uh, Hey,

01:00:56.040 you know, that's just, that's part of it. You know, that's the other side. Like if you want to

01:00:58.440 engage people, you want to say thankful, say thank you to people. Well, guess what? That the no

01:01:02.820 barriers allows you to do that, but it also allows people to, you know, to post a crazy review,

01:01:08.060 give you a one star because Amazon sent their thing a day late. Like that has nothing to do with

01:01:12.720 your book. Uh, but that wasn't available. It wasn't, uh, an option 30 years ago. Back then

01:01:21.380 you had to actually, if you wanted to write something, well, you had to sit down, you had

01:01:25.400 to write it. Well, first you had to read it. Then you had to write a letter. Then you had to find the

01:01:29.420 address of your newspaper or magazine you wanted to send it into. You had to address it. You had to

01:01:33.740 put a stamp on it. You had to put the letter of the mail. Then that had to arrive. It had to make it

01:01:37.760 through whatever, uh, whatever, uh, however it gets to the desk of that editor. Then that editor

01:01:43.280 has to take the time to open it, read it. And if you were crazy, guess what happened? Trash can,

01:01:49.800 cause they're going to put like four of them. Uh, and you know, those were barriers. Uh, now that

01:01:55.600 crazy one, it's right there for all to see. So it's, it's, it's really interesting, but you know,

01:02:01.120 I look at this as social media and all these different platforms that we have today as opportunities,

01:02:05.840 uh, to engage, to say thank you, um, through, to build essentially what is a startup business,

01:02:12.200 um, through these mediums that authors didn't have 20, 30 years ago.

01:02:16.960 And I have another interview at one. All right. We're going to get you out of here, man.

01:02:20.960 Hey, I've got a lot of other questions. Jump back on. Are we just going to cut it right here and come

01:02:24.820 back? Uh, you've got to go. You've got to go. I've got another conversation this afternoon,

01:02:28.980 but when we do our other podcast, we'll, we'll do it together. Let me just end by saying this,

01:02:34.520 Jack, I appreciate you, man. I really appreciate our friendship. Um, I do have to ask you one favor

01:02:40.500 that I'm going to take care of offline here real quick, but I want to tell you, I appreciate you.

01:02:45.700 I enjoy your books. I enjoy your works guys go pick up a copy of the devil's hand, which is his new

01:02:50.900 book. And of course the other three books prior to that. Um, I appreciate you, brother. We'll get

01:02:55.860 you going. I know you're a busy man. Thank you so much for having me on. I sincerely appreciate it.

01:02:59.500 And, uh, yeah, can't wait to do it again, brother. We'll talk soon. Take care.

01:03:04.520 All right, guys, there you go. My conversation with the one and only Jack Carr. I hope you enjoyed

01:03:09.560 that one. If you haven't read his series, I would highly, highly recommend that you do.

01:03:15.460 I'm a big self-help guy. I read a lot of self-help books and getting the self-help world and space,

01:03:20.600 but I'm telling you, adding some, some fictional work into my library has been refreshing and

01:03:27.440 entertaining, uh, and enlightening as well. I've, I've, I've learned things and Jack does a great

01:03:32.740 job bringing his own real world experience from the seal community and everything else into,

01:03:37.780 uh, into the books and into the works himself. So make sure you check that out. Uh, leave an

01:03:43.140 iTunes rating review. Again, it goes a long way in what we're doing here. Uh, also message Jack,

01:03:48.220 message him, message me. Let me know what you took away from the podcast. Let him know that you heard

01:03:52.540 him here, what you enjoyed about it. And then do one other thing, take a screenshot. Okay. You're

01:03:57.500 listening to this on your phone, likely. So take a screenshot and share it, tag Jack, tag myself,

01:04:04.240 share it on Instagram primarily, uh, but also Twitter, Facebook, wherever. Uh, and that also goes

01:04:09.960 a long way in showing other people what you're listening to so they can get this good information

01:04:14.380 as well. So just take a screenshot, tag me at Ryan Mickler on Instagram, tag Jack Carr, which is,

01:04:19.580 I believe at Jack Carr USA, you'll find him probably already following him, uh, and then share away.

01:04:24.840 All right, guys. That's all we've got for you today. We'll be back tomorrow for our ask me

01:04:29.080 anything, but until then go out there, take action and become a man. You are meant to be.

01:04:33.960 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your

01:04:38.080 life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

JACK CARR ｜ The Devil's Hand

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