Order of Man - JACK CARR ｜ Why Fiction Frees the Mind

00:00:00.000 Early in my self-development days, I would only consume nonfiction self-help books and it seemed

00:00:05.820 to be doing the trick, but eventually I became more consumed with the amount of books I was

00:00:11.340 reading at the expense of actually improving my life. Then I had a friend who encouraged me to

00:00:16.860 read fiction every once in a while. And shortly thereafter, my friend Jack Carr released his

00:00:21.820 first book, Terminalist, which of course I devoured. And Jack Carr is back on this podcast with me

00:00:27.820 again to talk about his latest book, Cry Havoc. But we also talk a whole lot more than just a book.

00:00:34.140 We cover how best to cultivate a new skill set, whether it be writing or something else,

00:00:39.600 the importance of exercising the brain, making yourself better through wisdom,

00:00:44.240 worrying about only what you can control, and also the value of fictional work on your

00:00:49.720 self-development journey. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears

00:00:55.260 and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every

00:01:01.000 time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This

00:01:08.200 is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:01:14.120 you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. I am Ryan Michler. I'm the

00:01:19.960 host and the founder of this movement. We've been going for 10 years now. I almost said seven years.

00:01:25.640 I don't know where that comes from. 10 years as of March of earlier this year. First things first,

00:01:30.580 guys, I realize the audio for this introduction is off. The quality of the interview is great. So if

00:01:39.260 this is hurting your ears, I definitely get it, but know that the interview is great. I'm not in the

00:01:43.700 office today. In fact, I've got a lot of travel planned over the next several months to do some

00:01:49.160 incredible, incredible interviews and introduce you to some powerful people doing good work and

00:01:56.060 having success in their own right so that we can, you know, model and learn from them. So

00:02:00.240 excited to bring that to you. But in the meantime, the audio is off and I'm working through some kinks

00:02:04.280 there. I am going to introduce you to Jack Carr here in a minute. Before I do, I want to introduce

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00:02:22.280 ready to go. And I will hopefully be putting them to use as I break down the whitetail that I'm going 0.62

00:02:27.680 to be shooting in Minnesota at the end of this month. So keeping my fingers crossed on that and

00:02:33.260 doing the work I need to do. But we have to have tools, whether it's my bow, my binoculars, my range

00:02:39.560 finder, my camo, stuff to keep me warm. All of that is important, but also a knife is very,

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00:03:02.240 code order of man, all one word order of man. Again, check it out. Montana knife company.com

00:03:07.420 use the code order of man. Now, guys, let me introduce you to Jack Carr. He is a New York

00:03:13.220 Times bestselling author. He's a former Navy SEAL. He spent two decades in Navy special warfare,

00:03:19.760 Naval special warfare, excuse me. And it's what gives his books the grit and the realism that so

00:03:27.660 many of us have come to expect. And you probably heard about Jack years ago when he came out with his

00:03:35.020 first book in the series, The Terminal List. And it eventually became adapted into a prime video

00:03:42.740 series portrayed by Chris Pratt. He followed the book with Red Sky Morning, Only the Dead,

00:03:49.080 In the Blood, The Devil's Hand, Savage Son, and True Believer. And Jack also hosts the Danger Close

00:03:57.260 podcast. He tours bookstores. He's got a book tour coming up now for the release of his newest book,

00:04:03.440 which is called Cry Havoc. That is out today. This book dives into covert wars of 1968,

00:04:10.940 global tension, Vietnamese conflict, Cold War intrigue. It's got a lot of combat espionage and

00:04:17.680 complexity in what Jack describes as his most ambitious thriller yet. So I'm very excited

00:04:25.000 to be bringing this interview to you in this conversation. And of course, my good friend,

00:04:29.460 Jack Carr. Jack, my friend, it is good to see you again. Glad to have you on the podcast.

00:04:35.420 Man, thanks for having me back. It's a, this is my favorite part about podcasts in general,

00:04:40.380 is that we get to, to catch an excuse to catch up. We're always so, so busy running a thousand

00:04:44.860 different directions that we don't really get to do it. But podcasts give us that, that excuse. So

00:04:49.160 I'm glad to be on. Thanks so much.

00:04:51.180 Like recording conversations with old friends, right? It's a, it's interesting how far it's come

00:04:56.740 since we met, gosh, what, seven, eight years ago now at this point. And I came up to your place and

00:05:03.240 that was for a terminal list. That was for your book, your first book.

00:05:06.600 That's right. Yeah. It was like, was it fall of 2018? Was that when you came up to the house?

00:05:11.720 He probably was right in there. I imagine it was, I think it was right before you released

00:05:17.260 terminal list because you were telling me about some of the things that needed to be redacted from

00:05:21.480 the book. And I think we were going through, you had just finished it or just released it or about

00:05:26.620 to somewhere right in there. Awesome, man. Awesome. I know it's been a, it's been a busy few years.

00:05:31.940 Yeah. Has it, uh, as you've grown over the past seven, eight years now, uh, with specifically as,

00:05:37.420 as a very notable author, New York times, bestselling author, is it, is it all that you envisioned or

00:05:43.880 is it different in some way than what you thought it would be?

00:05:47.640 I thought it was just going to be writing. Um, and that's what I pictured growing up. That's what

00:05:52.720 I thought an author did was just right. And back then they could do a lot more of just writing

00:05:58.160 because there wasn't, uh, all these other distractions they were competing with. They

00:06:02.860 were competing with films, with television, um, maybe news at six o'clock in the evening,

00:06:08.780 maybe a newspaper or a magazine, but that's about it. They weren't competing with a,

00:06:13.880 an onslaught 24 seven, three 65, uh, electronically that you're glued to addicted to in your pocket

00:06:21.380 from the most powerful companies ever created in the history of mankind, whose goal is to get you

00:06:27.320 essentially not to read and to keep you enraged and to keep you scrolling. Uh, they could write a

00:06:32.700 book, they could send it to New York, they could do a book tour, maybe do a couple of interviews and

00:06:37.360 that's it. And their publisher would, if they're a notable author, like a Stephen King or a John Grisham

00:06:42.920 or something, they would put an ad in the New York times or the wall street journal and call it a day

00:06:48.140 and you're back to writing. And that's part of the allure is that I could write in a cabin up in the

00:06:52.320 mountains. So when I'm 11, 12, 13, 14, thinking about this, that's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking

00:06:56.320 I'm going to be typing away at my cabin in the mountains. I'm going to send it to New York. I'll

00:07:00.180 do, you know, follow that pattern that I just, uh, just laid out right there, because that's what I

00:07:04.080 saw David Murrell doing. That's what I saw Tom Clancy doing. That's what I saw Nelson DeMille doing

00:07:09.260 from my perspective as a, as a kid. And then I'd never really lost that, uh, vision of what it was

00:07:16.180 to be an author. Um, until a little right, just before the first book came out, I held onto it

00:07:21.740 as long as I can. I knew, I knew that I was going to need a website and a newsletter. Okay. Um, I knew

00:07:28.180 I had no social presence. I knew that I was very uncomfortable, uh, as a, you know, doing anything

00:07:32.880 publicly. I'm not a good public speaker. I had to learn to be more, uh, assertive in the SEAL teams just

00:07:37.980 to, uh, get your point across kind of, you have to do that by, by default, but much more comfortable

00:07:42.980 being, uh, introverted by nature. And, uh, and then I got crept up on that, on that, uh, publication

00:07:49.380 date for the first book and really realized that battle space had changed and, uh, I couldn't be

00:07:55.140 fighting the last war, meaning I couldn't be, uh, writing this and just hoping that, uh, that the

00:08:01.260 battle space was the same as 1985, 95, 75, or even 2005, that battle space had shifted. And that meant

00:08:07.760 that I had to now compete with video games. You can play 24 seven with the, every single social

00:08:13.820 media app that we carry around, uh, with any movie or TV show that has ever been created in the history

00:08:18.800 of mankind, also available on multiple devices at any given time. Um, so the battle space has shifted,

00:08:24.820 less people are reading. Um, what does that mean? Uh, well, that means that I'm gonna have to do a

00:08:29.180 little more work and this was going to be more of an entrepreneurial type of a venture. I was going to

00:08:33.440 have to create the book, uh, essentially in the garage, making the computer in 1977 and I'm gonna

00:08:38.580 have to let people know that it exists. Uh, means I'm gonna have to do some outreach and I'm gonna

00:08:42.020 have to let them know why they need this computer in 1977, 78, 79, 80, uh, how it's going to revolutionize

00:08:47.560 their life or whatever. I'm going to have to be the CEO of said company. Uh, then I'm gonna have to

00:08:51.300 start hiring someone that can help put these, uh, do certain aspects of this, like a CFO or a CMO or

00:08:56.260 whatever. So slowly grow. But in the beginning, it's just you. And it's, uh, it's just you in

00:09:01.760 that garage in 1977. That's how I came to look at it. So hence social media, hence these different

00:09:07.620 verticals with podcasts, with, with merchandise, uh, TV shows, even a, uh, supporting effort to the

00:09:13.500 main effort of the books. So it's a little, little different today. Uh, and as much as I wish it was

00:09:18.760 1985, I know it is not. And, uh, but you know, hopefully maybe someday I'll get back to a point where I

00:09:25.180 can just plug in the landline and, uh, and just write. But right now it's, uh, I gotta do a lot

00:09:30.300 more than just that. What, what aspects outside of the writing process, um, and, and maybe the

00:09:37.020 feedback and positive response that you receive, what aspects of what you do now do you enjoy the

00:09:42.580 most that you didn't realize were on the table when you started doing this seven, eight years ago?

00:09:46.660 I think that I get to thank people. Um, and back in those times, I just mentioned the only time you

00:09:53.260 really got to thank someone who as an author would be, let's say at the end of an interview

00:09:57.220 before, as they're wrapping up and you could say, Oh, uh, and I just really want to say that I'm so

00:10:00.900 thankful to everyone who's, who's reads the books and tells a friend and that sort of a thing. You

00:10:05.020 could do it on book tour in person. Um, but now you can do it every day. Uh, when someone reaches

00:10:10.160 out and says, I read the book or, Hey, I gave my dad your book. We haven't talked to each other in

00:10:14.800 years and we bonded over this book for some reason. I just want to reach out and thank you. Uh, like all

00:10:19.420 those sorts of things. And I try to get back to everyone, uh, especially something like that,

00:10:23.260 you know, I'll do a, make a comment or for, it's just like, Hey, just pre-order the book,

00:10:26.220 you know, hit that heart button because I really feel sincerely grateful for everyone who does that

00:10:30.700 because it allows me to do what I want to do. So I think that's most surprising. I didn't know

00:10:34.480 anything about social media before I stepped into this world. They're very uncomfortable with it.

00:10:38.400 Never wanted it. Um, didn't have it in the seal teams, never did Facebook, never did my space.

00:10:42.520 I remember when the guys got that or whenever that was. Um, but, uh, but I never touched any of that,

00:10:47.900 that stuff just wasn't, wasn't me. But now, you know, it's a tool just like anything else. It's a,

00:10:51.960 it's a tool that can be used for a good or for ill. Uh, and I try to use it for good. I try to stay,

00:10:57.140 stay positive. Um, don't, uh, I don't try to chase it. I just try to add value to people's lives

00:11:01.720 throughout the year through a, through a post or a comment or a blog on the website or a episode of

00:11:06.600 the podcast, uh, whatever it might be. Um, just want to add value to someone's life, which is why I don't

00:11:11.800 repost memes or, you know, whatever else. Typically, uh, I don't, uh, try to inflame people. I'm

00:11:16.840 definitely not on the bandwagon of doing the things that I know a lot of people need to do to

00:11:20.460 grow like channels, um, with keywords and you know, whatever else. And like, that's just not me and I'm

00:11:25.980 not going to do it. So I'm just going to do the best I can with who I am and what I have. And, uh,

00:11:30.780 and that's, that's it. So maybe it means a little slower, slower growth than, than others, but, uh,

00:11:35.600 I am also an author. I am not a podcaster. I am an author. I'm not a influencer. I am an author. I'm not

00:11:41.600 those other things. I am an author who has a podcast. I'm an author who has an Instagram,

00:11:46.120 but I am not an influencer. Who's also an author or a podcaster. Who's also an author. You know,

00:11:50.380 I'm very clear in what I am and what I'm good at. And, uh, and I'm going to stay focused on the

00:11:54.540 books, but have those supporting verticals at the same time. I love the clarity because I think that,

00:12:00.820 and I've done this where we try to be all things to all people in all ways. And in some aspects,

00:12:06.540 in some regards, it does make sense because everybody is so inundated and, uh, we're trying

00:12:12.560 to vie for the same eyeballs or ears or whatever it might be. So I get it, but I think the clarity

00:12:18.420 around what you do, and you can even see it in your Instagram posts where, you know, you're talking

00:12:23.560 about things that are frankly interesting to you, um, important and relevant dates and history on this

00:12:29.220 day, such and such, such and such happened, um, highlighting interesting, unique things. I think

00:12:35.160 that is one of the beauties of social media is that it allows us to connect with the people that

00:12:39.140 we resonate with and we can find those people a lot easier than we could in the past.

00:12:44.260 Yeah. I mean, there's, that's certainly a wonderful element to it. And you're so good at podcasts. Like

00:12:47.900 I have a podcast, but I don't think I'm good at it. Um, like you are very good at this. Uh, and it's,

00:12:52.960 it's amazing. And it's, it's really cool. And I love the impact you're having on so many people,

00:12:57.620 uh, you know, across the board. And it's such a positive impact when there are so many other negative

00:13:02.520 ones that are being bombarded with, uh, when they don't even mean to, they're just getting bombarded

00:13:06.540 with that stuff from these huge tech entities. Um, and, and you're, you're this positive light out

00:13:11.780 there. So it's fantastic to see you, you do that. Um, but, but, but, but in, in, in general,

00:13:17.940 the social media side of the house, once again, it's about adding that, adding that value. Um, and also

00:13:23.400 I just not, not changing and adapting, uh, essentially too much to be something that I

00:13:30.260 am clearly not. Uh, and it's also why I don't do public speaking. Like I'll, you know, I'll do,

00:13:34.980 uh, in conversation with, but I know I'm not a good public speaker. I'm not a going on the

00:13:39.040 speaking circuit because I'm not a speaker. I am an author for a reason. Uh, about what I'm good at

00:13:44.620 and what I'm not. And it's, uh, you know, it's kind of like, remember when you're like growing up and

00:13:48.500 you're maybe in an argument with somebody or something like that. And you like, let's say you're

00:13:52.060 eighth grade or high school or whatever. You, you, uh, you turn around, you walk away and like

00:13:55.960 five minutes later, you think of a perfect thing to say. You're like, dang it. Ah, I'm not thinking

00:14:01.000 of that at a time. Well, now I can as an author, because I have time or I can sleep on it. I can

00:14:05.380 come back and edit. I can think of those perfect things to say. Whereas on a podcast or public

00:14:09.640 speaking or whatever else it is, um, you know, it's kind of similar to being that eighth grade kid

00:14:13.460 in an argument that thinks of the perfect thing to say 30 seconds to five minutes too late.

00:14:17.960 Um, so anyway, point being, I love what you're, uh, what you're doing out there. Thanks for,

00:14:21.660 thanks for doing it and staying in the fight. Yeah. Well, you know, I, and I also do think

00:14:26.480 that obviously we get better with the things that we practice. Right. And so I, I'm, I hope

00:14:31.420 I'm a fairly good podcaster because I've been doing it for 10 years and have under 1600 episodes

00:14:35.980 under my belt, just the same way with the amount of words that you have written and the narratives

00:14:41.240 that you've constructed and the characters that you've created. If I tried to go do that, I wouldn't

00:14:45.700 be able to, uh, you know, hold any weight to what you're able to do. Do you feel like

00:14:51.600 with your writing, I know if I remember correctly, your mom was a librarian and you learned a lot of

00:14:56.300 your reading and writing influence from her. Do you feel like you have a natural ability

00:15:01.700 to create and to write and to construct narratives in a way that's compelling to a reader? Or do

00:15:07.860 you feel like I don't have any of that and I've had to develop and articulate it over

00:15:11.360 the course of, you know, a decade or longer at this point? Yeah, no, I think it's, I have, uh, a,

00:15:17.300 a natural innate ability to do this, but I could have that and have not done all the reading that I

00:15:24.380 did throughout my life, which would also, which would not equate to, uh, to into what I'm doing

00:15:30.900 now, uh, in the same way that I've done it. So, um, yeah, maybe there's a little natural,

00:15:36.120 whatever talent there, whatever, but it's the reading that I did throughout my life.

00:15:41.020 Before I had a job, a family, a mortgage, a car payment, like all those things, a life in general,

00:15:49.540 I could be 11 years old reading the novelization of Rambo first blood part two and a summer when

00:15:56.920 there wasn't social media, when there wasn't anything else or any other distractions around.

00:16:01.600 Um, and it's really those years, I think between 10 and 20, let's say, where, especially young men,

00:16:06.700 uh, in a very formative time, what you do during that time, uh, for me anyway, really builds a

00:16:13.500 foundation upon which to build later on, which is why seeing what, uh, those kids in those years

00:16:18.820 are doing now on phones and with socials and scrolling, uh, it doesn't seem to be building

00:16:23.180 the most solid of foundations. Um, and it doesn't seem to be benefiting many people other than, uh,

00:16:29.260 than the tech companies who, uh, are, uh, the most wealthy and powerful companies in the history

00:16:35.660 of, of mankind. So I got for all those years. So about age 10, fifth grade, it's about the time

00:16:42.340 that I switched over from, let's say young adult fiction, like the Farley Moet type books,

00:16:45.540 and then into the same kind of books my parents were reading. So certainly by sixth grade, age 11,

00:16:49.440 I'm reading those kinds of books and I'm reading the masters. I'm reading Tom Clancy and Nelson

00:16:53.300 DeMille and David Murrell and AJ Quinnell and JC Pollock and Mark Golden and Louis L'Amour and Stephen

00:16:57.100 Hunter and all of these guys who are essentially my professors in the art of storytelling. And then

00:17:01.100 I'm going back and I'm reading some of the, my parents' books from the seventies. So the Ken Follett's

00:17:04.900 and, uh, the Ian Fleming's and the John le Carré's and the Ludlam's. I'm reading all of these books,

00:17:09.880 the Forsyth's at a, uh, during this time that is so formative for young men. And I am also listening

00:17:16.760 to the calling, listening to that voice that's telling me I needed to test myself and serve in the

00:17:22.100 military. And that was from a very early age. Uh, I can't remember ever wanting to do anything else,

00:17:26.480 find out about seals at age seven, but I'm also reading, I'm also watching movies. I'm also

00:17:31.780 watching television shows. There's that power of popular culture that comes along with watching

00:17:36.000 first blood Rambo commando predator, red Dawn, like all of these incredibly influential movies,

00:17:41.780 uh, to my generation in the eighties that are now a part of me during this formative time. Uh,

00:17:46.940 and all of those things kind of came together at the right time and place that allowed me to then

00:17:50.860 build on that foundation. So point being, um, you don't want me doing your taxes, but I can write a

00:17:56.360 book and I, and I don't want to get better at doing taxes. I want to get better writing books.

00:18:00.920 And, uh, I think every book has been better than the last. Uh, and that's, uh, that's always my

00:18:05.220 goal in the SEAL teams. My goal is to be a better operator and leader today than I was yesterday.

00:18:09.220 As a person today, my goal is to be a better husband, father, and citizen today than I was

00:18:13.860 yesterday. And then professionally, my goal is to be a better writer today than I was yesterday.

00:18:17.640 Uh, I want the next show to be better. I want a true believer to be better than dark wolf. That's 0.88

00:18:21.860 out right now. I want, if we, if we're so lucky to get another season of dark wolf, I want that to

00:18:25.620 be better than true believer and the first season of dark wolf. If we get so lucky to get a savage

00:18:29.520 son, I want that to be better than everything we've done before. I want to take those lessons

00:18:33.140 of what we've done and apply them going forward as wisdom to make a better show for those people

00:18:36.660 who are trusting us with time. They're never going to get back. And then same thing with the

00:18:39.900 books. I want the next one to be better than cry havoc because people are trusting me with this

00:18:43.780 time. They're never going to get, get back. And I want to continually improve

00:18:47.240 throughout life. That's just a, it's a part of, part of who I am. And that filters over

00:18:51.520 into everything else.

00:18:53.120 I do want to get into what you believe makes a better book. But before I do the question

00:18:57.860 I had about when you were a young man reading these books at that stage in your life, were

00:19:02.560 you purely reading for entertainment or because culturally as a family, it's just what you did

00:19:07.200 or, or maybe it's and, or were you reading with a critical, a critical eye, very reflective,

00:19:15.720 trying to figure out how narratives were constructed, how characters were brought to light?

00:19:21.820 Were you that aware of it? Or was it purely just, Hey, I just want to be entertained. I enjoy reading.

00:19:26.360 Yeah. The former, it was a natural part of my life from the earliest days. And I knew I wanted to be

00:19:33.580 an author by about, let's say age 10, 11, but I was still reading books with, from the fan perspective.

00:19:41.240 So the same way that Quentin Tarantino is watching movies, he's not going to film school. He's watching

00:19:45.880 these films. He is an encyclopedia of a film knowledge. And then he applies all of that to his

00:19:53.100 actual film. So same thing. I'm coming at this from the fan perspective. I did an incredible

00:19:57.840 amount of reading. I couldn't have, I couldn't go back and write a better, uh, journey that allows

00:20:05.700 me to do what I'm doing now than the one that I was on. And I think it would be a different

00:20:09.560 experience. And I don't think at age 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, uh, it would have made sense. I mean,

00:20:14.400 that would have been pretty Machiavellian of me to like go through about structure and like,

00:20:18.960 how am I going to do this later? I knew that I wanted to do this later. Um, but I'm

00:20:23.040 enjoying these books. I'm enjoying the magic in these pages. And I think that's actually

00:20:26.420 more important, more impactful, more powerful than the latter. Meaning if I was 13 years old

00:20:32.440 and going through a Tom Clancy book and thinking about character development and thinking about

00:20:36.120 structure and how I'm going to do that later in life, 20 years from now, 30 years from now,

00:20:40.520 I think that's a different reading experience than just enjoying the magic in the pages of these

00:20:45.300 books. So that's what it was for me. And that's continued on to this day. Although now I do a lot

00:20:49.680 less reading, most of the reading I do now is for research into, into the actual books.

00:20:54.120 And, uh, I heard Lee Child say that actually the thing he was looking forward to most about

00:20:57.420 retirement is reading for pleasure again. And, uh, I don't know if I'll ever retire from doing

00:21:02.400 this. I'm just going to write as long as, uh, you know, as long as people keep want to keep

00:21:05.260 reading these, but, uh, but I do want to improve with everyone. But what allows me to do that

00:21:09.280 is understanding the history of the genre is being 11 years old and reading the most dangerous game,

00:21:13.960 a short story by Richard Connell written in the early 1920s and telling myself at that age that

00:21:18.100 one day I'll write a thriller that pays tribute to this short story. And that became Savage Son,

00:21:22.480 my third novel. So, uh, so it's always been there as, as this thing I want to do,

00:21:27.460 but all the preparation was very natural. And it was the reading the thrillers and it was reading

00:21:33.020 the nonfiction also starting in an early age on warfare, on terrorism, on counterinsurgencies,

00:21:37.000 on insurgencies, reading that time in Newsweek that has Beirut cover, had the Beirut covers from 1983.

00:21:42.480 Um, anything I could possibly do that I thought was going to prepare me to be the best leader and

00:21:46.500 operator. I could be in the seal teams, even at those early days. Uh, and then everything that

00:21:50.100 I'm doing in, uh, as a young kid physically, I'm also thinking, I'm not thinking about,

00:21:54.580 I want to be the best soccer player because I want to score goals. I want to be the best soccer player

00:21:59.780 because I think this is going to help me as one day, uh, a seal serving this country. Uh, so this

00:22:07.020 endurance and this high end, uh, in that, in this case, I foot coordination or whatever it is,

00:22:11.840 like I wanted to be good at those things so that I could then be a better operator in the seal teams

00:22:18.560 later on. Um, so all of that stuff kind of came together at the right time and place, the, the

00:22:22.920 reading the thrillers, the academic study of warfare and the experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan. So I

00:22:26.780 could incorporate those feelings and emotions into a completely fictional narrative. So, um, it was,

00:22:32.140 it was a solid foundation, but it all came about just very, very naturally and not, uh, not from a

00:22:36.360 perspective at all. So because you knew that you wanted to write at such an early age, why did you

00:22:44.280 end up joining the teams? We may have talked about this, but I need a refresher on why you decided to

00:22:48.920 join the teams as opposed to just getting right into your writing career. And, you know, looking back

00:22:53.360 on it now, hindsight being 2020, it seems like a pretty good path in the grand scheme of things, but at

00:22:58.400 the time it seems like a diversion from what you ultimately wanted. No, I knew I wanted to do two

00:23:03.300 things. I wanted to serve my, and I wanted to then afterward, right. So I was very clear that,

00:23:09.780 uh, Hey, you got to write, uh, the thrillers after your military time, because you need to do that

00:23:13.760 when you're younger. So, uh, so, so it was really never a question about that. Uh, it was a calling

00:23:19.420 from a very early age. My grandfather was killed in world war II. He was a Corsair pilot. So a Marine

00:23:23.540 Corsair pilot, those were the planes that had the gold wings that folded up so they could fit on

00:23:27.080 aircraft carriers. Uh, there's a TV show in the early eighties in syndication. It was filmed in the late

00:23:31.600 seventies called it was Baba black sheep in the seventies. They changed it to black sheep squadron

00:23:35.660 in the early eighties with Pappy Boynton, uh, who's played by Robert Conrad. He was a Marine

00:23:39.980 Corsair pilot medal of honor recipient from world war II. And I'd watch those with my dad. Um, so I

00:23:45.640 just always knew that I would serve. And then at the ripe old age of seven, I find out about seals,

00:23:49.940 um, through a movie called the frogman old black and white movie called the frogman. And not long after

00:23:55.120 that, I'm watching Magnum PI. And first I'm watching him run through the jungle and he's in the Navy. I'm

00:23:59.340 like, well, interesting. Why is a Navy guy running through the jungle? And then about three or four,

00:24:04.260 they changed him from Naval intelligence officer into a background as a Navy seal. So, oh my gosh,

00:24:09.080 all this. So it all played in, uh, over the course of, uh, those formative years and reinforced that

00:24:15.200 I was on the right path. Uh, a line from David Murrell and the brotherhood of the rose talks about

00:24:19.880 seals one single line, uh, that I read in the, uh, the mid eighties. And, uh, that was impactful as

00:24:25.260 well. So all of those little things, uh, just kept me on that path. So I was very clear that

00:24:30.200 I wanted to serve. I listened to that calling. And I think a lot of us have that innate calling

00:24:33.860 to test ourselves. Um, because we used to have to do that. We used to have to prove our value

00:24:38.480 and worth to the tribe, um, because it was imperative. Otherwise that tribe was not going

00:24:42.920 to be around much longer. You had to be good at the fighting. You had to be good at the hunting

00:24:46.280 and the lessons from both of those things were passed around orally along through, uh, through

00:24:51.760 stories, um, so that the lessons from both battle and from the hunt, uh, could sustain

00:24:57.160 the tribe in the future. So those stories incorporated these, whether they're, they're,

00:25:01.540 they're myths, but these lessons are incorporated into these, into these stories. And, uh, and

00:25:06.360 that's why we're all here today is because we had ancestors that were good at those things.

00:25:09.440 But I think even though it's repressed, uh, from so many different angles in society, I think

00:25:14.780 in each and every one of us, somewhere deep down, there is, uh, this, uh, this, this need

00:25:20.120 to prove our worth. And typically that's done through most people think Marine bootcamp,

00:25:24.440 uh, or they think Q course, or they think buds, or they think ranger school, whatever it might

00:25:29.420 be. Um, it's a very natural thing to feel, uh, but it's more unnatural. It's, it's, it's,

00:25:37.220 it's, it's, it's been repressed, meaning a lot of people hit age 30 or 40 and say, Oh man,

00:25:42.360 I wish I'd listened to that call. And I think they knew that, um, uh, because it's in all of

00:25:47.700 us from the beginning of time. So I just listened to that calling very early on. And I've been

00:25:53.200 good at listening to my, to my voice. And first it was that little voice inside that sixth

00:25:57.380 sense, whatever it is, you're going to join the military. You're going to test yourself

00:26:00.580 there. You're going to serve your country in uniform. And then that also that calling

00:26:03.320 of what to do after. Right. Um, and I just never really questioned those things. I just

00:26:08.080 listened and, uh, and then did them.

00:26:11.480 Yeah, that's amazing. I wish more people would do. I wish I would do that more. Every time I followed

00:26:15.360 my gut or instinct or sixth sense, like you said, or, or, um, whisperings from God, I choose

00:26:22.080 to look at it as, uh, I have been served well. And every time I, uh, don't or shut that little

00:26:29.180 voice off or say, I know better, uh, it seems to go the opposite way. So it is, you know,

00:26:34.480 it's, it's interesting too, because up until about, I would say, well, when we met, but even

00:26:38.820 then it still took a couple of years for me to really see the value in fictional work. And

00:26:43.100 you, uh, had mentioned Lee Child, I had both him and his brother, Andrew Child, who's taken

00:26:48.400 over the series at this point. And they said, and I, and I believe this, the more I've thought

00:26:54.500 about this and the more I've implemented this in my life, that fictional work is better even

00:26:58.960 than self-development or non-fictional when it comes to how we grow ourselves as human beings.

00:27:04.340 And I asked him why that was, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said that if it's good work, if it's good

00:27:09.680 fictional work, we start to put ourselves in the role of the protagonist, for example,

00:27:15.180 and then we question ourselves, whether or not we would conduct ourselves in the same

00:27:20.200 way, or what would we do in that scenario? How would we handle ourselves in that situation?

00:27:25.080 And then if the character is constructed well, we aspire to be like that individual in some

00:27:31.940 way. So it's aspirational as well.

00:27:34.400 Oh, sure. Just like those movies I watched growing up, you know, you want to be Rocky in

00:27:38.080 the film. You don't want to be Drago. Um, you know, all of those, those are people to look

00:27:43.620 up to. Those are mentors essentially, but through the power of popular culture. And you know,

00:27:48.480 there's a lot of people out there that, uh, uh, say, Oh, I only read nonfiction. You know,

00:27:52.180 it's very, you know, it's, it's, that was me.

00:27:55.380 So there, there, those people are out there. I think it's a good combination of both things

00:27:59.820 that interest you obviously, but the value of fiction is that you can see the world, see a

00:28:05.940 situation, experience something through someone else's eyes. You get to live in their shoes,

00:28:11.020 which helps you develop this compassion, um, this empathy that is really lacking in other forms of,

00:28:18.680 uh, entertainment, meaning you watch a movie and yeah, you're seeing it there. They're played out.

00:28:26.380 And yeah, in some cases you can experience things through the eyes of a protagonist or another

00:28:31.340 character on the screen, but that's all coming through you and your imagination. Um, and you're

00:28:37.960 really, it really does help develop this compassion that is lacking in society today, especially when

00:28:44.520 all of the things that are our inputs from the digital side of the house, uh, are meant to do

00:28:50.020 the opposite. It's almost like they want to stamp out that compassion because that gets you angry and

00:28:54.780 fire back and gets you to see that other person as the enemy, instead of having this more

00:28:59.680 compassionate take on situations, people, um, forgiveness is, uh, you know, lacking across

00:29:06.260 the board, uh, and, and brilliant. One of the themes of, uh, of in the blood, which is my fifth

00:29:11.520 novel, um, is forgiveness. Um, of course, James Reese essentially puts his tomahawk through somebody's

00:29:16.800 head as soon as he forgives them, but this is something that I'm exploring throughout that novel.

00:29:21.900 And I get to explore that earlier in the beginning in a conversation between James Reese and

00:29:26.420 Carolina Hastings, who's the matriarch of the Hastings family. And, uh, that was one of the 0.98

00:29:30.540 best chapters I think I've ever, ever written. It still, uh, still stands out to me today is one

00:29:34.960 of my, one of my favorites, but point being you get to experience this compassion that you

00:29:40.100 won't really get through other means of, uh, of entertainment or media today. And I think

00:29:45.280 that's something that, uh, is, is of vital importance, especially for this generation who's

00:29:50.720 coming up in this digital world, age 10 to 20, um, that isn't getting that because they are not

00:29:55.740 reading because they're getting the, you're developing the traits that are the exact opposite

00:29:59.820 of development of compassion and empathy through the social channels. And it's, uh, I think it's a,

00:30:06.140 it's a serious issue today. And I'm hoping that audio books might be the gateway drug that lead

00:30:10.820 people to fiction because audio even is different. Like Ray Porter is incredible. He reads my audio

00:30:16.140 books. He's the narrator. So good. Yeah. So good. Incredible. Such a great guy. Love Ray Porter.

00:30:20.700 Um, we're still getting read to you. Um, but I'm hoping that people today hear podcasts like yours

00:30:28.940 and someone will have listened to the Lee Child, uh, and Andrew Child one. And then we'll get that,

00:30:33.100 get that book on audio probably because it's a very natural way to go from a podcast to the,

00:30:39.840 what you're talking about on the podcast. In that case, it's the Lee Child book. Uh, and then to go

00:30:44.460 from that to a physical book because it's a different reading experience. And a lot of people are doing

00:30:49.260 both. I hear that they're listening to it in the car, in the commute, they get home, they go inside,

00:30:53.120 you know, they pour their beer, whatever they're going to do. And then they, then, then they read,

00:30:56.640 uh, and they're, they're trying to get off social and, and all the other distractions out there. So

00:31:00.360 a lot of people are doing both. And then they'll get back in the car in the morning and pick it up

00:31:03.360 where they left off the reading the night before on the way to work type of a thing. So a lot of people

00:31:07.460 are doing both. So that, that gives me, gives me some hope when it comes to, uh, to future readers.

00:31:12.420 Man, I'm going to step away from the conversation very quickly. I know that, uh, you want to get

00:31:18.680 back to it. Look, we all know the scriptural reference of iron sharpening iron. It's in

00:31:23.240 Proverbs 27, 17, but what does it even mean? And do you have the type of men in your life who you can

00:31:30.280 sharpen yourself against? Uh, the, the likely answer is no, most men don't. And so as the inevitabilities

00:31:37.400 of life take place, most men have nowhere to turn, no sounding board to bounce ideas off of,

00:31:44.060 uh, no friends to be pushed and motivated by, and no accountability at all to be had.

00:31:49.980 Uh, but that's where the iron council comes into play. Uh, it's a training ground for life. Uh,

00:31:56.260 one where you'll work together through challenges and assignments where you'll meet other men who are

00:32:01.620 committed to improving their lives and yours and a place where you'll be tested. But

00:32:06.720 the men there, uh, they want to see if you have what it takes and they want to help you develop

00:32:12.520 what you need to become the best father and husband, business owner, leader in your community.

00:32:18.100 And we're open right now. So if you want the testing ground, if you want training for life,

00:32:24.920 if you want to be a better man, a better father, a better husband, a better leader in the community,

00:32:29.220 then band with us. Do that at order of man.com slash iron council. That's order of man.com

00:32:35.560 slash iron council. Do that right after the show for now. Let's get back to it with Jack.

00:32:42.480 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it does some other things too. I mean, not, not only that, but it

00:32:46.280 exercises the brain as one, you know, if everything's just right in front of us and we can see it and

00:32:50.540 feel it and touch it and taste it, then there's not much creativity that needs to be mustered up.

00:32:55.260 And I think that's why, you know, when you watch, um, maybe it's dark wolf or, or, uh, terminal list

00:33:01.660 and everybody has an opinion about where those characters casted correctly, because in their

00:33:08.040 mind, they see it as somebody completely different. And, uh, Chris Pratt and what's his name? Taylor,

00:33:13.720 Taylor, Taylor, Kurt, Kurt. Yeah. Kitsch. Yeah. Um, obviously they do a great job, but I'm sure for

00:33:19.520 some people it's like, no, that's, that's not what I had envisioned in my mind at all, but it is good

00:33:25.360 because it exercises that creativity. But the other thing that I found for me is that with fictional

00:33:31.500 work, it, you're able to push the bounds of what is possible, what is legal, what is moral. And

00:33:40.080 I like that because it stretches us outside of our comfort zones and it allows us to see things

00:33:47.120 above and beyond the real world. I think there is a point where characters are so it's so far

00:33:53.720 fetched and it's so over the top that it's no longer relatable, but it's good to see somebody

00:33:58.780 you relate with pushing the bounds of what is actually possible. Yeah. There's, and there's

00:34:03.300 the, the details I try to get right. And I try to, uh, so I'm not pulling, like the worst thing you can

00:34:07.240 do is watch a, uh, a movie about, or a TV show about firefighters with a firefighter or watch a

00:34:12.080 with a police officer type of thing. So I try to get those details, right? So someone who was in

00:34:18.040 the military, someone who was a firefighter, someone who is a doctor, someone who is a police

00:34:22.180 officer, uh, they're seeing it and they're not taken out of a completely made up story because

00:34:27.380 the detail is wrong. Um, because someone's wearing the wrong badge or the things on upside down on

00:34:32.920 the, whatever, like, or they have the finger on the triggers or talking to their, their buddy,

00:34:36.400 pointing it at their friends or what are all these little things or as scope is on backwards or,

00:34:40.600 or whatever, like some of those things that you see out there. Um, and there's going to be

00:34:44.380 mistakes, you know, there's, there's going to be mistakes, but we're putting so much time,

00:34:48.060 energy, and effort into trying to minimize those so that you're not drawn out of the story, uh,

00:34:52.120 because you see something like that. So, uh, so that's a, that's a piece of it all too. But

00:34:56.560 also I can describe a room as having green walls, emerald walls, um, uh, something like that. Uh,

00:35:04.380 the, the walls were the color of, uh, the skin of a frog, whatever, all of those descriptions,

00:35:09.220 someone pictures something different because their skin of a frog is different or their green room

00:35:14.040 or their emerald is slightly off. And then that you see it in the TV show and it's not the exact

00:35:18.220 emerald. I mean, that's a, that's a, uh, uh, sure. I'm broadly generalizing here in that no matter how

00:35:24.120 you describe something or don't, in many cases, it's more powerful to allow the reader to picture

00:35:29.140 an interrogation room without describing it because they have it in their, in their mind already.

00:35:34.560 They've seen enough shows where there's a table, there's two chairs, you know, and there's a camera

00:35:39.480 in the corner, like they, and a big lamp or a light overhead, right? They've got it. They've already

00:35:44.200 built it, uh, in their mind. So I try to go back and forth depending on the flow of the story.

00:35:48.560 Um, but regardless point being, regardless of how much or how little you describe something

00:35:53.260 in someone's mind, you, even though we read the same paragraph, both you and I are going to have

00:35:58.120 a different version of what that paragraph looks like on the screen, uh, because we're bringing our

00:36:03.980 life experience to that paragraph. So there's always going to be that in an adaptation. And

00:36:08.160 for us, when we do the shows, it's always about making the best show we possibly can. No egos,

00:36:12.300 best idea wins, and there's constraints in place. There are no constraints. When I write the novels,

00:36:17.140 zero constraints right here, TV show, there are budgetary constraints. There are actor availability

00:36:22.220 constraints. There are time constraints. You have about an hour to tell each episode.

00:36:25.240 Each one of those episodes has to have its own arc. There has to be, let's say in the case of Dark

00:36:29.100 Wolf, seven hours, uh, seven episodes. So there has to be an overarching arc to that entire seven

00:36:33.840 hours. Uh, and all of that is very different than what I do in the novels with zero constraints at

00:36:41.180 all. So it's, uh, hopefully one's making me better at the other now that I'm, uh, working into the

00:36:45.380 Hollywood space and my approach, everything as a student anyway, and, uh, always trying to learn and

00:36:50.560 improve with everything that I do. But, um, but it's, it's very interesting to do both.

00:36:56.140 So I would say at the root of what you do is to communicate and you use the medium of written

00:37:00.980 word, but all of us are communicators in one form or the other. So I'm actually very curious about how

00:37:06.680 you decide whether or not you elaborate on a specific scenario or you go, you don't explain

00:37:15.800 anything at all, because I think that'd be helpful. It would certainly be helpful for me as somebody who

00:37:19.660 communicates on a daily basis. And I think it'd be helpful for other people who are trying to have

00:37:24.020 influence with others. How do you know how much to elaborate on versus how much not to disclose?

00:37:29.560 How do you find that balance? That's the art. That's the art of it right there. There's no set

00:37:34.140 of rules that I have. Um, I start all the books the same way every time, meaning I have a title.

00:37:40.020 I like to have a title, so I'm not worried about that. Um, even if it's going to change,

00:37:43.860 I am not wasting bandwidth stressing about, Oh, I've had good titles thus far. What am I going to do

00:37:48.160 next? I'm going to make a good one. No, I got a title down. I have a theme down. That's going to

00:37:51.840 guide the writing process. I have a one page executive summary that I write. And then I read

00:37:55.820 back to myself and I say, is this worth the next year, year and a half of my life? Uh, and if it

00:38:00.480 is, I read it again and say, is it someone was to pick this up at a Hudson news and to look at the

00:38:04.140 back of the book. And it had something similar to this as a description. Would they invest time in

00:38:08.280 this that they're never going to get back? And if the answer is yes, or maybe then I turn that into

00:38:12.620 the narrative and then turn that into the actual, um, into the actual book. But I don't write in that

00:38:20.560 outline or even think as I'm going, um, Hey, this is something that I need to describe in more detail,

00:38:27.360 or this is something I'm not going to because of this, that, or the other all very natural.

00:38:32.940 It's just, uh, it's just, uh, that's the art kind of like the art of leadership. You can give two

00:38:38.200 people the exact same tenants of leadership and ask them to go out and lead teams very different,

00:38:43.240 either interpretations or, uh, executions of those, uh, very clearly stated principles.

00:38:48.880 And so that's the difference between the art of something and the science of something. So,

00:38:53.640 uh, this is definitely the art of it is, uh, is what comes naturally after the outline phase.

00:38:59.120 And I move into the narrative. So there's no set of rules of, uh, of what I'm going to write

00:39:02.900 more descriptions or less. Um, it's just naturally.

00:39:05.940 I imagine there's a lot of feedback that you're picking up on from people who listen and how well

00:39:12.500 they resonate with a story or with a particular character that gives you some insight into,

00:39:16.880 Oh, I could have done a better job here, or I could have done something different there,

00:39:20.760 which leads me to the question that I put a pause on a bit ago, which is how do you write a better

00:39:26.900 book? What is it about the book that makes it better? Or is it simply subjective based on how well

00:39:33.000 it's received? Yeah. It's a recept is subjective, but not based on how well it's received. I don't

00:39:38.700 take anyone's advice on how to do something differently going forward because then you're

00:39:46.020 even somebody who's, who's qualified, incredible, like these guys that you look up to, you still

00:39:50.820 the same answer. Yeah. Still the same answer. Interesting. Okay. Elaborate on that. Yeah. And

00:39:56.140 it's, uh, because you was going to chase it. If you're doing that, you're just going to chase

00:40:00.180 something. You're not going to be the best version of yourself. You're going to be a second rate

00:40:03.840 version of that person who gave you the advice. Um, so the advice I've gotten is the reading that

00:40:10.060 I did throughout my life. Like that's my foundation. Um, and that's upon, that's what I'm building upon

00:40:15.740 right now. Um, I don't look at comments. I mean, I see comments because I'm going through to try

00:40:21.640 to show people. So I will see it. Um, and I'll see negative comments and I'll see, why don't you do this

00:40:26.520 or whatever, but I'm not chasing a headline. Um, and I, and this is fine. Some authors do that.

00:40:31.620 That's fine. It's just not my, that's not my way. Um, I'm not trying to think about, uh, or I'm not

00:40:37.400 thinking at all about what's popular. I'm not thinking at all about, Oh, if I write this, am I

00:40:41.840 going to, uh, is this going to upset a portion of the audience? Oh, it means I can't say that,

00:40:47.720 or I shouldn't say that. Or I'm not thinking, Oh, you know what's, what's popular today? Shorter

00:40:51.880 chapters or longer chapters? No, the chapter is as long as it takes. That's it. It can be short.

00:40:57.260 It can be long, but the chapter dictates, the story dictates. Um, and I know a lot of authors

00:41:01.640 don't do that. They do the exact opposite of that. Um, and it's not, it's not my way. Uh,

00:41:06.560 but I'm also fortunate in that I did all that reading. So I have this all innately in me from

00:41:11.540 everything that I have consumed from the fan perspective over the years, but it's all in,

00:41:17.140 when it comes to improvement. Now I just want to improve on what I have done previously.

00:41:22.280 Now I could go back and do the terminal list again. I know I'd write a better book, a hundred

00:41:25.260 percent, but I can't, it's out there as the best I could do at the time. Uh, devil's hand book number

00:41:30.220 four. Can I go back and make that better now? I'm sure I can, because I've grown over the last

00:41:34.360 few years, I have done more of this thing and not just more of it, but I have improved over the years

00:41:40.960 because I'm growing just like I was a better seal, uh, five years in than I was two years in. Why?

00:41:46.800 Because now I have experience. Um, and whether it's in training or actually downrange in Iraq or

00:41:52.200 Afghanistan, whatever that experience is, whatever those lessons are, uh, I'm applying them to now a

00:41:57.520 current problem set, uh, as wisdom, uh, making myself better because of what I've done in the

00:42:02.400 past. And it's no different in writing. I'm solving problems aggressively on the page. Uh, the only

00:42:07.280 thing I'm cognizant of is not repeating what I've done in the past. Uh, that's, that's probably the

00:42:12.840 only thing. Like, how do I improve on this? If I'm going to have a torture scene, an interrogation

00:42:17.700 scene, I, I know what I've done in the past. How do I weave something in that has, uh, some

00:42:23.240 relevance to history that, that may move the story forward. Isn't just something more spectacular or

00:42:30.660 more painful that was done in a previous book. No, it needs to have some sort of a basis in history

00:42:36.660 that relates to this story. So it has to be thoughtful violence. So it's all about improving,

00:42:43.120 moving forward, doing things that serve the story and not a fad, uh, not a short chapter versus a

00:42:49.820 long chapter, not, Oh, what's going to be popular tomorrow. I got to figure that out. Uh, so I can

00:42:53.120 grab it from the headlines. So a viewer can say, grab from the headlines. No, never, ever any of that.

00:42:57.780 It's always focused on this, the story. And if I do that, if I just focus on the story,

00:43:02.620 then in turn, I'm honoring that readership, that listenership, um, because they are getting the

00:43:07.940 very best they can get from me without any outside influence, meaning, Oh, this person said I need to

00:43:14.020 change this. Oh, I need to do this headline. Oh no, I need to, I can't say this because it's going to

00:43:17.880 make somebody mad who believes X, Y, or Z. Nope. Never, ever any of that. I think that gives you a

00:43:23.580 bland story and that's not me. I'm always going to write the best story I possibly can and serve that

00:43:31.200 story because in turn, I'm respecting that audience and that readership who's investing

00:43:35.040 time with me. They're never going to get back. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate the, the reader or

00:43:39.960 listener, uh, perspective in that. And, and I imagine too, it's how you actually create,

00:43:44.920 uh, uh, thriving fan base because at some point they become familiar and accustomed to your style

00:43:53.340 as opposed to you grabbing from the headlines or, cause if you did any of that at this point,

00:43:57.600 eight years in the game, somebody who's read all the books is going to say, what the hell is this?

00:44:02.200 Yeah. Yeah. Because it's not you. And they're going to know that immediately. And now they come

00:44:06.940 to expect a certain thing from you, which I think can probably have its pros and cons.

00:44:11.980 Yeah. Maybe. I don't really think about it from that perspective. Um, I just think about what is

00:44:17.520 going to make the best story and then do that. Um, without anything else. Otherwise you drive

00:44:22.160 yourself crazy, I think, or I would anyway, I don't know how other authors do it, but I drive myself

00:44:26.700 crazy just trying to do what somebody, and I'm very fortunate. I have the most amazing editor,

00:44:30.480 Emily Bessler at Simon and Schuster and her edits from the very beginning have all been along the

00:44:35.200 lines of explain this for someone who didn't spend 20 years in the military. Uh, right. Or I've been

00:44:41.500 living with this thing for a year. I know the twist. I know, um, some surprise that I want to have in

00:44:47.560 there, but guess what? A first time reader doesn't. So she'll say something along the lines of see this

00:44:52.720 maybe once or twice more earlier on. Uh, okay. Like those are the kind of edits that I get and

00:44:58.900 that's not it. I don't get really anything else. No huge changes, nothing, uh, no advice either from

00:45:04.160 an agent or a publisher or an editor. Uh, and I didn't know going in brand new to this, you know,

00:45:09.660 in 2018, uh, I sent the book to Simon and Schuster in 2016, November, went out there in December to talk to

00:45:16.320 them. And then it was, uh, or twenties, January, 2018. It's, it's, uh, the deal is done. Um, so I

00:45:22.880 didn't know what an agent, though my idea of an agent, uh, comes from Hollywood. It comes from,

00:45:27.760 uh, uh, Californication or entourage. Like that's what I thought an agent was. Um, probably the same

00:45:33.940 thing. Like whatever I've seen in film up to that point is essentially what I think a publisher and

00:45:38.000 editor do. And I didn't know if they were going to say, let's have a meeting and talk about, you know,

00:45:43.080 your next book to zero never. And I love that because now I can't blame them. If something

00:45:48.260 doesn't work, I don't have to waste. It's on you. It's on me. I never have to think of the

00:45:53.900 political meaning, uh, and there's politics and everything. So I mean, Oh, my agent said I need

00:45:58.380 to do this. Well, I really liked my agent. Okay. I guess she knows what she's doing. I guess I'll do

00:46:02.520 this. It doesn't feel right, but I'll do it. And then it doesn't work out. Now I'm mad at my agent

00:46:06.360 and myself for taking her advice. Same thing with a publisher, never any advice from my publisher,

00:46:11.220 never any advice. And my publisher and editor are the same person, Emily Bessler at Simon and

00:46:14.740 Schuster, uh, never any advice from her whatsoever. But I love that because nothing will ever be her

00:46:20.320 fault. Nothing will ever be my agent's fault. Everything will be my fault. And, uh, and I love

00:46:25.800 that. I love having that complete creative control across the board. That is, uh, I guess it's a lot of

00:46:32.260 pressure, but I don't look at it as pressure. I just look at it as freedom. And, uh, and I, I sincerely

00:46:37.360 appreciate that freedom and that trust from them. So, uh, which is different than the Hollywood side

00:46:43.160 where you have notes up and down the chain of command and the top of Amazon and back down

00:46:46.560 and everybody in there, everybody really wants to make the best show they possibly can. They just

00:46:50.060 have different life experiences and different tastes, uh, and all of that. And that's, uh, you

00:46:54.100 know, you have to figure out how you're going to deal with that environment and work together as a

00:46:58.160 team that has the same goal, but brings different life experiences to it. We're so lucky to have such an

00:47:02.760 amazing team with Chris Pratt and Antoine Fuqua and David DiGiulio, the showrunner. It's just a,

00:47:06.820 such an amazing team out there. So I got very lucky on that front, but, uh, but yeah, publisher

00:47:11.640 and editor, Emily Bessler and my agent, no advice whatsoever on anything. And I love it.

00:47:18.180 That, that is interesting. Cause I, in the couple of books that I wrote, I had an editor who,

00:47:22.420 she did a wonderful job for me as well. And she didn't agree with a lot of the things that I wrote,

00:47:27.140 which actually ended up being a good thing. So when she disagreed with what I wrote,

00:47:30.920 she didn't try to get me to change it. She said, you need to do a better job explaining this concept

00:47:35.300 because not everybody's going to get it. So I really appreciated that work because it's hard to

00:47:40.100 be objective when you have your own perspective that may differ from what an author or a creator

00:47:46.380 might think. And I think she did a wonderful job. It sounds like Emily does as well.

00:47:50.160 Yeah, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Yeah. But yeah, I love, and I, yeah, I love the whole

00:47:54.540 process. I love that. I have the trust. I wish I could hit my deadlines a little bit. There's a reason

00:47:58.640 we're talking here in October, not June. And that's because that's when it was supposed to come

00:48:02.420 out. But I had to write every single sentence of this book through the lens of 1968 without the

00:48:07.620 benefit of 50 plus years of hindsight. Being there. Yeah. I knew a lot about Vietnam. I realized that

00:48:14.080 I had not even scratched the surface when I started doing this research into this one. So every single

00:48:18.240 character has to bring their, only has a life experience up until 1968 to lend to a conversation,

00:48:26.340 to a problem set, to, uh, to a decision, um, to a perspective. So, uh, that took a lot longer than

00:48:34.740 I thought it became more closely in tune with a historical fiction, uh, than the thrillers that

00:48:39.340 I've written in the past. And, uh, so this just took a long time to do that. And it's my first espionage

00:48:45.540 thriller. Uh, it's really at its heart and espionage thriller. The other ones I would classify as

00:48:49.320 political thrillers, but this is really an espionage thriller set in the heart of Southeast Asia in 1968,

00:48:54.740 the bloodiest year of the war for the United States. Um, and that's something that, uh,

00:48:59.060 I hadn't seen done in a long time. There's the quiet American by Graham green, 1955. There's,

00:49:03.380 uh, the cheers of autumn by Charles McCary. It's 1974. And there's the honorable school boy by John

00:49:08.660 the career. It's 1977. And those are the only three thrillers that I know of that were really set in the

00:49:15.100 heart of Southeast Asia, uh, during that timeframe. So, um, uh, and there might be others. I'm just not aware

00:49:21.600 of them. And so I, I, I talk about them in the acknowledgements and the author's note,

00:49:25.520 and, uh, wanted to try something just like that. And, uh, so that's, that's cry havoc.

00:49:31.620 I think that's one of the things from my perspective that you do exceptionally well

00:49:35.320 is the historical accuracy of it. Um, the real world experience for other novels that you've written

00:49:41.080 where you, you know, you've traveled to those, these locations. You've, you, I remember you

00:49:46.100 working with poachers in Africa for research. And so I think people appreciate that. I'm really

00:49:52.440 wondering what you feel like AI is going to do to, to the world of, of, of writing and creativity,

00:49:59.480 because I mean, I imagine you can, you can read something and say that was written by AI. You can

00:50:05.700 do that. But I imagine that as AI develops and it becomes more sophisticated, that it's going to be a

00:50:11.160 lot more difficult to tell, did Jack actually write this or did a computer write this for him?

00:50:15.820 And I'm not accusing you of that by any means, but it's going to be a real problem. I'm curious

00:50:20.220 what you think about it. Yeah. It's something that I try not to think about too much, um, because it

00:50:25.720 is so daunting and concerning. So right now I just focus on the writing on the projects. Um, and I

00:50:33.460 don't know, I mean, it's pretty, very, I don't know how to adapt to that going forward because it's

00:50:39.300 so new and yeah, I just don't know. I don't have chat GPT. I don't have any of that stuff. I'm sure

00:50:45.320 there's like, you know, AI in the Google search or however they're using it. I have no idea,

00:50:49.720 but sure. Yeah. I haven't used it yet. Uh, I can see how maybe you can use it as a research

00:50:54.260 assistant maybe going forward, but I haven't experimented with that at all when I'm not

00:50:58.500 good at that, uh, sort of thing, like anything technical, not good at, um, I just want to

00:51:03.540 update my word document. If word updates, uh, like that's all, that's about it. That's all I can.

00:51:08.260 And as long as it does it automatically, right? Yes. It doesn't, it does that. And it, and it

00:51:12.400 doesn't, I don't lose everything. And I back things up constantly. Like all of that, that's

00:51:15.900 where my, where my focus is. But when I think about AI and yeah, someone can say, write the

00:51:20.520 next, write my book in Jack Carr's voice. Someone can, because I guess AI took my books and taught

00:51:26.200 itself, you know, like whatever, I guess. Um, so what can I do about that? Nothing. Um, so I can't,

00:51:33.260 so I'm not going to spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about it because I can't do anything

00:51:36.500 about it. I'm reminded of a story and I was actually saving this one to tell on Rogan,

00:51:41.320 but I, and I will tell it again on Rogan if this comes up. And I was reminded of it just last week.

00:51:47.140 I was in Paris. So we finished filming in Morocco, true believer, wrapped that up about 10, 11, 12 days

00:51:51.740 ago. And, uh, and it was amazing. I can't wait to get this thing out there moving to post-production

00:51:56.620 right now. First two episodes are edited and they'll continue to refine those going forward. But as we

00:52:01.560 move through the post-production process on, on all the episodes, but I met my wife in Paris on

00:52:05.920 the way home. So we went from, from Morocco to France and we spent about 10 days there. And I

00:52:10.440 just got here late last night on the East coast for a few days before book tour. And, uh, we met

00:52:15.620 some friends there too. And one of them, uh, he was friends with Steve Wynn. So the Wynn in Vegas back

00:52:21.840 in the day. Oh, got it. Yeah. And, uh, and they were doing some restaurant thing together. Uh, and he's

00:52:27.480 with Steve Wynn and Waylon Jennings and they walk into one of the hotels and way, uh, Steve

00:52:34.740 Wynn says to, to Waylon Jennings, he says, Hey, there, we have an act. We have a Waylon Jennings

00:52:39.180 and I'll call him Jalen Wennings. I don't remember his exact name, but we have a cover band that

00:52:42.980 people are loving. And he just gets guy does all your tunes and, and he, uh, he respects

00:52:48.100 you so much. And it would mean the world to him if you'd, you know, meet him, you know,

00:52:51.400 say hi. And, uh, Waylon Jennings is like, yeah, sure. And so they all sit down together. So my

00:52:56.000 friend's there, Steve Wynn's there, Waylon Jennings there and Jalen Wennings is there. And, uh, and so

00:53:03.000 the guy's saying how much he appreciates Waylon Jennings and, uh, and all the rest of it. And Waylon

00:53:07.920 Jennings is like, yeah, um, love, love your, love, love your stuff. Sounds, sounds great. Uh, but there's

00:53:14.260 one problem. And, uh, the guy's like, what, what, what is it? And he says, you're always an album behind.

00:53:19.620 Hmm. That's how I'm going to think of AI. Yes. Yes. That gives me a little bit of, uh,

00:53:28.240 uh, I don't know. It makes me feel better rather than worrying about it, uh, knowing that it is here

00:53:34.500 and here to stay and could have a, uh, huge impact on what I'm doing now. I'm probably in publishing

00:53:39.480 at the worst time you could possibly be in publishing over the last 50 years. Uh, and same

00:53:43.900 thing with Hollywood side. I'm probably in Hollywood at the worst time you could possibly be in Hollywood

00:53:47.160 over the last 50 years, unfortunately. Um, that's just how it goes. Once again, can't change that

00:53:51.940 either, but I'm going to look at AI that way. I'm going to look at it as AI will always be one book

00:53:57.480 behind. And I think that's allowed me to continue to go forward and write the books that, uh, the

00:54:02.080 way that I, that I want to write them is just me without AI. Um, and I think I'm just going to be

00:54:06.400 my, that's going to be my thing. Yeah. I mean, I think you do another thing really well when it comes

00:54:11.320 to relatability and, and I know you say this isn't necessarily your cup of tea, but when you go do

00:54:15.500 these book signings and you show up and you see how many people are there and you see how many people

00:54:19.660 love your novels, but they also love you. They also respect you as the author, as the guy who's

00:54:26.140 served this country, as the guy who's on the road so much connecting and relating and building

00:54:33.160 relatability. And that's something that AI just can't, it can't do that. So you might be able to create

00:54:38.580 a brand around AI, but I don't think you can create the type of connection and relate relatability

00:54:43.920 that it seems like you've been able to create over the past seven to eight years.

00:54:47.100 Well, I appreciate that. And I think that's because it comes from a real place because I

00:54:49.580 am sincerely grateful to everybody. Uh, sincerely grateful to you took a risk on me very early

00:54:53.980 in this journey. I'll always remember that and sincerely appreciate that. Uh, so I love going

00:54:58.920 out and thanking, thanking people. Um, I actually heard a great story from Monica Garrett, who is an

00:55:04.720 actor. He's in a lioness. He's the, he plays, uh, commander Cox and the terminal list. And also

00:55:08.860 in dark wolf and episode, uh, one and two, uh, it's a great guy, dear friend now. And, uh, we went

00:55:14.000 to UFC, uh, month ago or so. Yeah. About a month ago, we went to August 16th in Chicago. So we were

00:55:19.820 there together, sitting in the front row together and, uh, hanging out, having a great time, having

00:55:23.760 some drinks. And, and, uh, and he told me a story of, um, of he was with, um, Oh geez,

00:55:29.520 he's not enough. Anyway, he's with a very well-known actor. And, uh, we're at a place

00:55:34.700 in Texas and, uh, they're having dinner and people found out they were there cause they

00:55:38.980 were doing, uh, I think they were in the bootcamp maybe for, uh, 1883 or something like that.

00:55:42.900 Anyway. Um, so find out that they're there, they're there for the other person. And, uh,

00:55:49.160 and well, Monica's like, do you want to like, it starts getting crowded and more people are

00:55:53.520 calling cars are coming in, all that stuff. And he's like, do you want to like, just get

00:55:56.860 going out the back and there's a back, back exit we can take. And, and he's like, uh,

00:56:00.720 Sam Elliott. Yeah. Sam Elliott. Okay. Yeah. Sam Elliott's like, uh, Nope. He's like, this

00:56:06.500 is all part of it. Like great attitude meets everybody there in this restaurant, shakes

00:56:11.940 their hands. There are people that are waiting outside, says hi, does that whole thing, signs

00:56:16.800 the autograph and the Monica was just like, that's a professional right there. And that's 1.00

00:56:21.080 a kind human being. And, and, uh, so I remember that as well, but that, that was just like a

00:56:24.620 couple of weeks ago. But, uh, but for me, it's very similar.

00:56:26.860 I feel extremely, uh, grateful that, uh, that people are reading the books. They're

00:56:30.520 telling friends about it. And that's a way for me to thank, uh, thank people is to be

00:56:34.340 out there on the road, shaking those hands, taking those pictures, doing all that, that

00:56:37.220 sort of thing. And just, uh, just means the, means the world to me. So you're right. So

00:56:40.640 maybe an AI can't do that. I hadn't thought of it in those terms until you just brought

00:56:43.020 it up, but I'm guessing somebody that says, Hey, write my book in Jack Carr's voice, uh,

00:56:47.180 make it about, uh, say, instead of a seal, make it about say an army special forces

00:56:50.920 guy, uh, make it about revenge, uh, put in a bad guy who's, uh, part of a

00:56:55.820 pharmaceutical company, uh, put a bad guy politician in there, put one bad guy, military

00:57:00.400 person in there and have every, uh, be different or something like it, whatever, whatever they

00:57:05.460 say, whatever they feed this thing. Um, and then it comes out and maybe it is in my voice

00:57:09.640 and maybe we get to a point where it's really good, but maybe there's not the other parts

00:57:14.000 that you just talked about. So I'm going to think about that too, going forward. So I appreciate

00:57:16.960 you. I appreciate you bringing that up.

00:57:18.740 I mean, it's, it's crucial. And, and, you know, you can see the growth in your social

00:57:23.040 media accounts and your presence online is that people, yeah, the books are great and

00:57:26.880 they love the books. And also it's, it's you, it's the author behind it, which I think is

00:57:31.840 probably a relatively new phenomenon just based on our previous conversation during, during

00:57:36.960 this discussion, you know, yeah, sure. We know, we know the name Clancy or, or child,

00:57:43.220 but we don't know them as people the way that I think more people know you than previous

00:57:51.120 decades, uh, in, in great works of literature.

00:57:54.820 Yeah. And you know, that's something I, right around the time we, we first met, it's, uh,

00:57:59.020 something I realized, you know, months prior, certainly not much more than a year prior,

00:58:02.580 if that, if that long is that today when you're in competition with all these other apps and

00:58:08.360 distractions that we talked about earlier, um, you also have an opportunity in that.

00:58:13.220 And let's say, pick a company. I saw a few companies sharing their evolution and from

00:58:21.200 inception to essentially launching a product online and, uh, sharing that journey, sharing

00:58:27.120 the trials and tribulations of that. And by doing that, yeah, they're maybe teaching some

00:58:31.320 lessons along the way. So people are getting some value out of that, but at the same time

00:58:35.320 they're, uh, they're creating this, uh, essentially fan base that wants to now buy said product when

00:58:42.340 it launches because they've been, you're now a part of it. Now you're a part of that journey

00:58:45.820 with company X, Y, or Z. Uh, and that wasn't possible in 1985, 95, or even 2005. Uh, and it

00:58:52.380 is possible now. So I took that lesson and applied it to publishing, which I don't think anyone had

00:58:57.360 done before and wanted to share this journey, not just buy my book when it comes out. That's

00:59:02.480 what I saw most other authors doing. And I thought, well, I don't have to do that. I can do something

00:59:06.900 different, uh, because the battle space has changed. And now I have these other options

00:59:11.640 out there. I have these opportunities out there that, uh, people didn't have in 75, 85, 95. Uh,

00:59:16.680 but I do have them today so I can share this journey with people. I can use these tools,

00:59:21.340 uh, for good, not ill. And, uh, and that's something that I can do. Okay. Well, I better do

00:59:27.220 that then. That's, uh, that's what I essentially owe my family, uh, for, uh, who puts up, put up with

00:59:33.600 20 years in the seal teams and puts up with me locked away, try typing away for all of these

00:59:38.120 hours that it takes to, to write these books. Um, all the sacrifices that my, my wife made and

00:59:42.960 continues to make today. Um, that's what I owe them is to put that extra effort in to building

00:59:48.260 that readership, that listenership in a time when it's very difficult to do that, um, because of all

00:59:52.500 these other distractions. So that's going to get, so that's going to get, uh, get my full effort as

00:59:56.780 well. Well, what is it like when you're, like you said, locked away in a cabin, you're, you're,

01:00:02.680 you're doing what you can do. You're focused on one project at a time that might take you what 12

01:00:07.780 months, 18 months to write. Whereas, you know, with, with work I do, I'm going to record this

01:00:14.000 podcast. I'm going to set it up, send it to my editor. He's going to make it look pretty and we're

01:00:18.100 going to publish it. And then tomorrow I'm going to do another podcast with someone else. So I get to

01:00:22.300 see the value of my work almost in real time. You, however, you're not going to see it come to

01:00:29.000 fruition for quite literally years before idea to market. Yeah. It's like having a restaurant

01:00:36.360 that's open one day a year. Uh, so right. It better be a great meal. Um, because you're only

01:00:44.400 going to get one shot type of a thing. Uh, I can't fix it tomorrow. Uh, I can fix it maybe in a year,

01:00:49.340 maybe if one doesn't work like that. But, uh, luckily they've all, they've all hit thus far.

01:00:53.840 Um, but, uh, but I kind of think about in those, in those terms. And for me, I do have more than

01:00:59.140 one project going at one time, which is the, which is the hard part because it's the, it's the

01:01:03.420 interruptions that, that kill me when I'm writing the book. So I have to jump over and edit a, edit

01:01:08.140 a script, or I have to write my own script, or I have to jump in and make these edits. So give my

01:01:13.000 notes on, on an edit for episode, uh, two Oh three, let's say when I get that of, uh, of term of

01:01:19.540 true believer, well, that's going to keep me away from the next book and I'm going to shift really

01:01:22.560 quick over, watch it, have my pen and paper right there. Cause I can't really know how to make the

01:01:26.620 notes on the thing yet. So I write them all down and then I put them in the email and I send them

01:01:30.440 to, to the rest of the EP team that's doing those, those edits. Um, and, uh, and then they'll

01:01:35.640 collate them with everybody else's and, uh, and to see which ones were, were doubled up and all the

01:01:40.300 rest. So it's the interruptions that do really get me when I'm doing these things, but that takes,

01:01:46.320 let's say a day, an evening, a long evening to do, to do that. Uh, this takes a year. Um,

01:01:53.280 and so throughout that time, I'm going to get interrupted multiple times as I'm writing the

01:01:56.900 book and, uh, yeah, that makes it take longer. But at the same time, uh, I know that these other

01:02:01.940 things are valuable in building on the existing readership. So, um, as much as, yeah, like I said,

01:02:09.060 as much as I wish it was 1985 and I was just writing and I had a landline in another room. Uh,

01:02:14.380 well, that's not where I live right now. That's not where we live. It's not our operating

01:02:18.340 environment. So, uh, rather than worry about it, I just got to do the best I can and figure

01:02:22.300 out how to, uh, to, to, to focus on the writing when I'm writing. And then, uh, and this is

01:02:26.940 something I'm constantly working on and then, okay, and then when am I going to do this edit

01:02:30.360 or when am I going to do this blog or when am I going to do this social post or whatever

01:02:33.860 it might be? Um, got to figure out a better way to do that. I'm just kind of still in scramble

01:02:37.440 mode on that right now. It's still, uh, I haven't quite refined it to the place that, uh, that I want to

01:02:43.340 get it to eventually where, uh, I have time to just focus on the books and I'm not worried about

01:02:48.440 anything else because, uh, some of those other things are just happening. Uh, the merch is

01:02:52.880 happening. Maybe the podcast is going to morph next year because as you know, how much time it

01:02:56.700 takes, people don't know if they're not doing it. If they're not doing, no, they have no idea.

01:03:01.480 They just think you sit down and talk and that's the end of it. And they don't know that you're

01:03:03.900 going to be into show notes and you're going to be in the social copy across multiple different

01:03:07.480 platforms that all have to be slightly different that you're going to have to look at your

01:03:10.460 guest who's going to have a different, maybe social handle on Facebook than they do on Instagram or

01:03:15.500 whatever that, uh, you're gonna have to look at grammar, spelling, punctuation. You're gonna have

01:03:19.960 to do all that stuff. You're gonna have to look at the, the edits that your editor made just to make

01:03:23.400 sure, especially if you had a note that you want to follow up on and you say that, Hey, make sure

01:03:26.980 you take this part out or add this part, or make sure you highlight this part for a clip. Like you have

01:03:30.560 to double check all that stuff to make sure that it's done right because it's you out there.

01:03:34.280 People are going to see you, not your editor. Uh, once that goes up there, you can't say,

01:03:37.340 no, my editor misspelled my guest's name, uh, or whatever. I'm back to you. It doesn't come back

01:03:41.480 to anybody else. Uh, and so people just don't realize how much goes into a podcast. So for my

01:03:45.960 next year, I'm more from the podcast for sure. It's just so much, so much time. So I'm going to

01:03:50.100 do more focused episodes on the launch of something like true believer or like the next book or whatever

01:03:55.720 else, a nonfiction targeted book, um, and research for that right now. As soon as I leave from book tour,

01:04:00.900 I'll go do some in-person research. I haven't announced the actual topic yet, but, uh, that's with James

01:04:05.400 Scott Pulitzer prize finalist, amazing guy, uh, historian. And I learned so much about research

01:04:10.360 from him. So we're going to go on a research trip together for the next book. As soon as I'm off

01:04:14.260 book tour, I'm home for one day, I think. And then we, we zip off on that. Um, so it's, uh,

01:04:18.720 so I'll do a series of podcasts around that, but not the one every week. Cause that once again,

01:04:23.320 when we talk about interruptions, like that is a big interruption every week and I love doing it.

01:04:27.700 I love talking to people and all that. So I learn a lot from it, uh, from guests,

01:04:31.640 but at the same time I have a book to write. And this one is, uh, how many months late is this?

01:04:36.620 Well, June to June to October. It's, uh, it's pretty late. So I need to get back. Yeah.

01:04:42.880 Well, Jack, I appreciate you and our friendship too. Um, our friendship, but also what I've seen

01:04:47.540 you be able to do over the time that we've known each other and the work that you put in the

01:04:51.060 diligence. It's inspiring to me. I get a lot of value from it, even though we don't talk

01:04:54.680 that often. Um, I do see what you're doing and I follow along and I'm, I'm really excited for you.

01:05:00.080 And I'm glad to know you. Uh, I'm glad you took some time. Uh, hopefully it wasn't too big of a

01:05:04.660 distraction. A full day of, uh, of interviews today. And I appreciate you and taking the time

01:05:11.280 and appreciate what you're doing out there and, and the impact that you're having on people,

01:05:15.120 that positive influence that you're having on people. And it's, uh, it's remarkable to see,

01:05:18.540 especially when I'm sure it's very tough with all of the input that you get day in and day out.

01:05:23.040 If you're on these, these socials and doing all the things that you do, uh, you've stood strong and,

01:05:27.180 uh, man, it's a, it's cool to see what you've, you've built here and continue to

01:05:30.000 build here as well. So thanks so much for having me on. It's in, uh, it's appreciated.

01:05:34.300 I appreciate it. And this book, or excuse me, this podcast is releasing on launch day,

01:05:38.420 October 7th. So the book is called cry havoc guys, check it out. Uh, is this number seven?

01:05:44.760 This is number eight. Uh, red sky here was number seven. So this is number, yeah. So this is number

01:05:50.600 eight, but, uh, then there's the targeted Beirut, which is the nonfiction. So it's really number

01:05:56.920 nine, but in the thriller series, it's, uh, it's number eight. So, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's go,

01:06:02.940 go, go. Excellent. Well, we'll sync it all up so the guys can get their hands on it and, uh,

01:06:07.520 have a listen and enjoy, and maybe learn a few things along the way. Jack, appreciate you,

01:06:11.020 brother. Hey, you too. You take care. Hopefully I'll see you soon.

01:06:15.520 All right, gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with the one and only Jack Carr. I hope you enjoyed it

01:06:20.580 as I always enjoy our conversations. I would highly, highly recommend you checking out cry

01:06:25.760 havoc. I am in the middle of it right now. And I found some real value in introducing fiction

01:06:32.500 into my reading. And I think you would as well. And this is a great place to do it because we're

01:06:38.680 going to be learning from other fictional men who are doing incredible things and really cause us to

01:06:45.620 question what we would do in some of those situations and how we would conduct ourselves.

01:06:50.180 There's obviously value in that. So check it out. It is out today. Cry Havoc. Also make sure to check

01:06:55.720 out, uh, his series on, um, prime the terminal list and also, uh, make sure you look at his other

01:07:05.160 books as well. Cause he's got, I think this is his eighth, if I remember correctly. And he's got one

01:07:10.000 other, um, non-fictional work that historical fiction that I think, uh, you guys will be interested

01:07:15.960 in as well. Anyways, that is your marching orders for today. Oh, one last thing.

01:07:20.180 Check out the iron council. Do that over at order of man.com slash iron council band with us.

01:07:25.920 Get that accountability. As you know, iron sharpens iron. All right, guys, we'll be back

01:07:30.840 tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action and become the man you are

01:07:36.200 meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your

01:07:41.480 life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:07:50.180 Thank you.

01:07:52.180 Thank you.

01:07:54.180 Thank you.

Order of Man - October 07, 2025

JACK CARR ｜ Why Fiction Frees the Mind

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