Order of Man - JACK DONOVAN

00:00:00.000 My guest today, gentlemen is the one and only Jack Donovan. Now I've been honored to get to know him

00:00:04.680 over the past several years and much of what he has shared regarding men and masculinity has

00:00:09.680 shaped my own personal perspective of how we are to show up as fathers and husbands and leaders in

00:00:16.260 our business and community. Today, we talk about his latest book, fire in the dark. We also do a

00:00:21.800 deep dive into the roles of masculinity, individual responsibility, the heroic ideal, and ultimately

00:00:27.920 why we as men look to the gods and what we can learn from them. You're a man of action. You live

00:00:33.000 life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down,

00:00:38.480 you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient,

00:00:45.540 strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:00:51.740 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on

00:00:57.340 a day? My name is Ryan Mickler and I am the host and founder of this podcast and movement. I want

00:01:03.140 to welcome you here and welcome you back. We are doing great things. We've got good things in the

00:01:07.700 works. We've got our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council. We've got our new battle planning app.

00:01:12.580 We've formed partnerships and alliances with great organizations and companies. We've got our

00:01:17.300 exclusive brotherhood, the iron council. I'm just blown away with how quickly we've been growing.

00:01:22.680 And that's a testament to you sharing this work, putting it out there, making it visible,

00:01:27.780 banding with us and believing in what it is we do, which is to reclaim and restore masculinity in this

00:01:35.120 degenerate broken down society. Culture is deteriorating around us. And it's up to us as men,

00:01:42.760 fathers, husbands, business owners, community leaders, strong, noble, courageous, capable men

00:01:48.080 to write the ship as it continues to deviate and go off course. So we're doing that today.

00:01:53.880 I've got a conversation with the one and only Jack Donovan. I'm going to introduce you to him

00:01:57.800 in just a minute. But before I do, I want to make a mention of my friends over at warrior poet society.

00:02:04.540 They've got a new network that if I were to describe it very quickly, I would say almost a Netflix for

00:02:12.580 men. You're going to have all kinds of topics from an exclusive show from me with order of man

00:02:17.220 to other tactical trainings, firearms training, fitness. I mean, you name it. If it's a topic

00:02:23.820 that's interesting to you, you can check it out at warrior poet society network. So if you go to

00:02:28.880 order of man.com slash W P S N order of man.com slash W P S N, and you can use the code order O R D E R

00:02:37.020 at checkout for a 10% discount. Again, that's order of man.com slash W P S N. All right, guys,

00:02:44.160 let me introduce you to my guest today. A lot of you guys already know, of course, who he is.

00:02:47.940 His name is Jack Donovan. And fortunately I've been able to get to know Jack over the past several

00:02:53.540 years. And we've spent a lot of time via zoom, even face-to-face talking about masculinity and

00:02:59.580 what it actually means to be a man. Now I was introduced to his work years ago when I read his

00:03:05.820 book, the way of men. And since then I've been fascinated with his interesting and unique

00:03:12.180 perspectives and his willingness to share what has only increasingly become polarizing thoughts and

00:03:19.140 ideas about masculinity. He's an extremely fascinating man and has really caused me to

00:03:24.380 take a hard look at what I perceive as the responsibilities of men and what it means to

00:03:28.480 be a man and how we can and should show up in the world. So I enjoyed the conversation as I always do

00:03:33.500 with my friend, Jack. I know you guys are really going to enjoy this one as well. Jack, what's up,

00:03:39.060 brother? I think we're on, uh, officially, I mean, we've had plenty of conversations,

00:03:43.100 but I think officially we're on, is this around three, three or four that you've been on the

00:03:46.900 podcast? Three or four. Yeah. Somewhere in there. Anyways, it's always good to talk with you, man.

00:03:51.860 It's always funny because every time I have a conversation with you, because I'm a Christian,

00:03:56.360 a lot of guys, a lot of guys will bring that up. Well, you know, he's a, he's this and he's that

00:04:00.220 and he's a pagan. He doesn't believe this and he doesn't believe that as if, uh, because I'm a

00:04:04.000 Christian, I'm not allowed to have additional conversations outside of the realm of Christianity. It's a,

00:04:08.280 it's a very interesting concept to me. It is weird. And it's, it's not, uh, I mean,

00:04:13.380 obviously, I mean, we're talking about the new book and that was one thing that I dealt with when

00:04:18.960 I was writing it. Cause I could have written a niche book for a pagan audience. And, uh, but

00:04:24.840 the guys I want to talk to are such a bigger group of guys. And, uh, you know, I didn't want to be

00:04:31.400 limited by that. You know, I wanted to be, you know, I have so many, I, the older I get,

00:04:35.740 I just want to be surrounded by, surrounded by awesome guys who are doing awesome things and,

00:04:40.360 and not be like, well, well, what do you believe about this? And that, you know, I mean,

00:04:44.200 there's certain things that are like breaker, you know, breaking points for me, uh, especially,

00:04:48.340 you know, over the past like year or so, like, uh, but, uh, you know, I want to be around guys who

00:04:53.520 are trying to be excellent all the time. And, and, uh, you know, I, I like, thank you for having me on

00:04:59.720 this show. I definitely, uh, I want to compliment you on what you've been doing all these years.

00:05:05.940 Uh, you know, I've been writing in the manosphere or about men's issues for, you know, about a decade,

00:05:12.180 a little bit more. And, uh, I remember when it was just a bunch of guys, uh, writing angry blogs,

00:05:17.160 uh, you know, who are a little broken and, and whatever. And, uh, you know, you're really bringing

00:05:23.360 a lot of things into almost really the mainstream, which was not happening. Uh, I mean, well, you just

00:05:30.560 had a congressman on your show, uh, the other day, you know, which is pretty amazing. And that's,

00:05:35.340 that's what needs to happen. If any change is going to happen, you know, it needs to reach a

00:05:39.280 broader people. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny that you talk about the, the quote unquote mass. I don't,

00:05:44.860 I actually don't like that term because it exists. Yeah, exactly. It's there. And I think

00:05:50.980 labels serve their purposes in that we can, we can roughly assume what that person is about.

00:05:58.500 But when I hear the label manosphere, you're exactly right. I hear things like broken individuals.

00:06:04.700 Essentially when I hear manosphere, what I think of is guys who are basically the equivalent of

00:06:10.780 third wave feminists for masculinity. They're so broken. They're so hurt. They, they, they can't

00:06:17.520 mature. They can't fix themselves. And it's somebody else's fault. They're victims and somebody else

00:06:23.740 did something to them and screw society and screw everybody else in general. Yeah. I think that's,

00:06:29.200 that's what it was. I would say, you know, it may be in 2012 when the came out or like 2014 or all

00:06:36.140 that. That's the way it was. And I think there has been a big change. Uh, you know, you have like

00:06:41.280 Tanner speaking at like manosphere events. He's talking about like productive families and,

00:06:45.660 and all that kind of stuff. So that kind of stuff is just changing a lot and it's, it's good to see

00:06:50.680 it. You know, it is good. And, and I've also seen it develop and mature. And this might just come

00:06:55.900 from the guys who, you know, 10 years ago, we're, we're talking about how to pick up chicks to now

00:07:02.700 their dads, now their husbands, now their business owners, they're leading their community. And they're

00:07:07.380 like, maybe picking up chicks, isn't the ultimate goal. And let's change this idea of the quote,

00:07:13.580 unquote, manosphere to adding value and enhancing the lives of the people that we care about,

00:07:18.800 whatever that looks like for you. Yeah. And, and that's, you know, for the individual as he

00:07:23.640 matures too, I always say that, you know, there was a big discussion in the manosphere about like

00:07:28.180 moving away from that as well. And I was like, well, there is an ever, evergreen crop of young

00:07:34.680 men who need to figure things out about women. Of course. And so that's always there. That's going to

00:07:39.960 be, there's a new group of 18 year olds every year that need to figure that stuff out. Right.

00:07:43.980 But, but obviously that if they stay there forever and they're, you know, I mean, you know,

00:07:49.040 we can't all be Dan Blazerian, you know, that's, that's the life.

00:07:52.620 Although at times I'm thinking, you know, maybe there's something to that. I don't know about this.

00:07:57.420 He's definitely the Lord of the earth.

00:08:01.680 I don't know. I mean,

00:08:02.760 Yeah. I mean, I think about, you know, you look at that and I kind of equate it to this. Maybe it's

00:08:10.220 a weird metaphor. Maybe it's not a great metaphor, but you know, you, you think about a video game

00:08:15.160 that you're playing and, and you play, you try to, to, to gather all the resources and the new tools

00:08:20.860 and the new skillset. If you have all the cheat codes, it's cool for like an hour. Right. And then

00:08:27.820 it sucks. You know, for me, I look at my life and I've been married for nearly 17 years. Now

00:08:34.080 I've got four kids, we've got mortgages, we've got a business, we've got this, and we've got that,

00:08:39.660 all these things that, you know, quote unquote, we're supposed to have at this point. And it's

00:08:43.520 challenging. It's difficult, but it's the challenge that makes it meaningful and significant to me.

00:08:49.200 And as much as, you know, sometimes being single and not having kids is, you know, sounds pretty

00:08:54.080 appealing at times. There's also a tremendous sense of value that I think is, is void in that

00:09:01.200 type of life. And maybe that's just a level of maturity on my part.

00:09:05.480 Yeah. Yeah. And also, I mean, there are going to be different strokes for different folks,

00:09:09.140 you know, like different guys need different things and different things are to work out.

00:09:12.400 I mean, I went through a period a few years ago, I'm like, kids, how can I make that happen?

00:09:16.960 You know, like I definitely had a moment with it. I don't think that's what I do or what I'm really

00:09:22.000 here to do in the world, but I don't think that would have been a smart move. It would have

00:09:27.400 backfired. What makes you say that? Well, I mean, you know, I do have another relationship that I've

00:09:33.840 been in for 23 years. So there's that. I'm a little, my life is a little more settled than

00:09:39.240 people think it is in a lot of ways, but you know, that, that would have required a very

00:09:45.960 non-traditional arrangement to do something very traditional. And I don't really, I don't think

00:09:51.600 that that's really how I would have wanted to do it. You know? So it just, it just wasn't the

00:09:56.200 right choice for me. I decided. And I think, and also I, I'm in a weird, I'm a weird artist too.

00:10:01.760 I need to be in my own head and, and not worry. You know, I, I rented this office so that I could

00:10:06.880 not be, not do work at my house, you know, like, so I can be here and walk around and talk to myself

00:10:12.720 and, and be a weirdo and, and make like, I'm working on music. I don't even know why right now.

00:10:17.440 I'm like learning, teaching myself music production. You know, I need to do stuff like

00:10:21.280 that. And that's kind of who I am. So I, you know, it's, it, it, there are a lot of guys

00:10:25.500 who I think, and this is a, something that, you know, it has to be addressed as well as

00:10:30.440 in, uh, you know, the man conversation, let's say that it's happening all around the world

00:10:36.360 is that there are going to be a lot of guys who are going to end up being single for a lot,

00:10:40.940 for most of their lives in, in whatever way that means, uh, whether they're single and don't

00:10:46.580 have kids or single and divorced or single. And, um, you know, in, in various relationships

00:10:53.020 at different times, you know, not just like playing the field every day. Cause sure. That

00:10:57.700 is that, that is going to get sad for anybody. I think by the time you're, you know, if you're

00:11:02.480 doing that for 20, 30 years, uh, but, uh, you know, the guys have long-term relationships

00:11:06.400 and whatever, and they go move through them and, and, uh, different things. And, you know,

00:11:10.540 not there's a limited number of women who want to have traditional marriage marriages. Right. And

00:11:16.940 I think that's increasing actually. So, or excuse me, I should say it's decreasing that traditional

00:11:22.980 concept of marriage and monogamy, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, and, and, uh, while I think,

00:11:28.780 you know, it's having a little bit of a Renaissance in some people's mind, as far as coming back and

00:11:32.780 be like, Hey, maybe this wasn't such a bad idea after all. And, uh, but there's still, you know,

00:11:38.380 I say like less available women who are going to be interested in that world. So, I mean,

00:11:42.860 there are certain groups of people who are going to fit into that better and certain who aren't.

00:11:46.060 So I think that there's just a lot of different groups and a lot of, I always say different voices

00:11:50.800 for different years. And, uh, you know, there's, uh, you know, as long as you're helping these guys

00:11:56.300 live positive and productive lives in whatever way that means, I think that that's, that's a good thing.

00:12:02.080 Did you ever read, uh, the book manhood in the making? Have you ever read that book? Uh, by, by,

00:12:06.780 uh, David Gilmore. I believe it's by. Yes. Yeah. I think we actually talked about it.

00:12:12.980 Oh, we did. That's right. You caught, I got mad because I thought someone was ripping me off and

00:12:19.060 it realized that I had ripped them off. I forgot about that. Yeah. I had a, that was on your,

00:12:25.140 one of your threads because it was a source that I had used like in 2007 and I had forgotten that I

00:12:31.040 read it. And then, and then, uh, you had the, the guy who was in one of the essays, I think in that

00:12:37.520 book. Yes. I did in one of the essays. He wrote it. David Gilmore. Yeah. It was David Gilmore. Or I

00:12:43.300 think it was some, uh, like another Harvard academic. Maybe I can't remember. It was something

00:12:46.720 about that. But, but he had, I remember that being good at being a man versus being a good at being a

00:12:52.900 man versus being a good man. Being a good man. He had, he had said that kind of in passing and

00:12:56.860 whatever. And then I developed it later, something important. But, uh, I think that, yeah, that was

00:13:03.220 where I originally had gotten that distinction from, but it was like years after the fact.

00:13:07.400 I always get, so whenever I forgot about that. Now you say that, but when, whenever I talk about

00:13:12.020 that, I always give credit cause I saw it there. And then I gave credit to you at first as well,

00:13:16.220 because you developed that. But the reason you articulated it, what I mean is, is you explored it,

00:13:22.680 you, you dive deeper into it. But the reason I brought that book up is because in, in the book,

00:13:29.620 he talks about, uh, the role of men as being a protector, a provider, and a procreator. And I

00:13:36.100 actually disagree with that because I see a lot of men out there who I would consider masculine,

00:13:42.980 mature men who are adding value to themselves, their families, their community society, that for

00:13:47.960 whatever reason they, they have either decided not to, or physically cannot procreate. And I just

00:13:54.900 don't think that makes them less of a man. And what I'm suggesting is that fatherhood doesn't define

00:14:00.600 masculinity, but I do believe father, maybe a father figure, meaning that you can serve other men,

00:14:09.200 you can groom other men, you can help them develop, but that doesn't mean it has to be your biological

00:14:14.880 son necessarily. Yeah. And, and, you know, this is my, my dude is George Washington right now.

00:14:21.520 And he actually never had kids. He actually had some foster children and whatever, you know,

00:14:25.780 they took in and, uh, and he was a father figure for an entire country, you know, so that,

00:14:31.160 that is also a role. And I think that he's an interesting way that you could, uh, look at that

00:14:35.820 for guys who don't end up having kids, uh, you know, like you can do a lot and you can be,

00:14:39.960 and you know, I, I see myself at this point. I mean, I've, I'm not a young guy, you know, I'm 46

00:14:46.220 and I've been around a little bit and, uh, you know, I, I see guys doing things, uh, and I'm like,

00:14:52.420 ah, you really shouldn't do that, man. You're going to regret that. You know, like, you know,

00:14:56.420 it's funny, a little bit of a voice of moderation on certain things where you're like, that's going to

00:15:01.760 lead you down a bad path that you don't want to go to. And mostly it's because you and I have both

00:15:06.580 have done a bunch of dumb shit in our lives and, and we've realized like, okay, yeah, I actually

00:15:12.560 did that 15 years ago. That didn't work out for me. So you better get, but it's interesting because

00:15:20.240 I see society as a whole buck the idea. And I think this is really the premise. There's a lot

00:15:27.020 of things about your book, but really the premise of the book is society rejects the idea of like

00:15:34.720 what you should and shouldn't do. And to me, I think about the timeless principles that we turn

00:15:43.400 to in mythology, our religions, where regardless of how you feel from a spiritual perspective,

00:15:52.500 there is some eternal truths to the way that we quote unquote should be behaving that will actually

00:15:59.060 serve us very well if we adhere to it. Yeah. There was a, there's a big problem that happened

00:16:06.560 in modernity, which is basically, which came from science, although it's not science's fault.

00:16:12.860 You know, it, the idea that anything that we can't measure or find evidence for at a given time,

00:16:19.220 even if it's traditional wisdom and is not valid and we should throw it out with the baby with the

00:16:27.660 bathwater because we can't measure it yet. Right. I mean, because that was a big thing, uh, you know,

00:16:32.640 in studying feminism and studying like, uh, you know, gender and stuff for years, uh, they, they

00:16:38.260 couldn't figure out what about men and women was so different. And now they have done more brain

00:16:44.220 studies and hormonal studies. And they actually have more data than they had in the sixties and

00:16:48.480 seventies, but they, they did some people went to some islands and they're like, these people don't

00:16:54.060 seem to care about the same things we care about. Therefore they're all these things are socially

00:16:57.660 constructed. And, uh, that's not really true. And what we're finding in, uh, whether it's dating or

00:17:04.800 marriage or all these things in society is that there are certain things that maybe work out better

00:17:08.760 because, and people have been doing them for thousands of years, not because they just didn't know any

00:17:13.340 better, but because they had tried other things and they didn't work as well.

00:17:18.220 So one of the things I've said around for a minute, of course. Yeah. And, and I talk about this,

00:17:24.640 here's the framework I use is that masculinity, femininity, these are, these are biologically

00:17:30.200 constructed dynamics, right? Like men and women are different. We know that anecdotally, scientifically,

00:17:37.320 we know that, okay. It's not a question, right? So we have these biological constructs and then

00:17:46.320 they're supported societally because they work. Right. So society says, Oh yeah, the men are bigger,

00:17:54.940 stronger, and faster. So we need them to defend the village. Yeah. That's a societal support of a

00:18:01.340 biological construct, but people seem to get that backwards. Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a,

00:18:06.000 it's a rational division of labor, right? You know, like have hire the best person for the best job,

00:18:12.840 you know, like the most skilled person. And also, you know, there's other biological realities that

00:18:18.000 go into that. Well, you need the women to have children and they can't do the hunting and fighting

00:18:22.340 if they're having children because they need to be doing the children because someone needs to do that

00:18:25.580 job. And we need to protect the women because they're a resource. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean,

00:18:30.740 all these things are basic, but we were living this weird, socially constructed time where,

00:18:35.580 like they said, they threw the baby out with the bathwater. And now we're seeing, we're seeing

00:18:43.460 ideas from the sixties and seventies being written into law now, you know, and the idea that like,

00:18:48.480 you know, us saying men and women are different is actually very contentious right now, which is,

00:18:53.160 even though we have all the data and everything we have more than we had then, but because we're

00:18:59.120 seeing the people who are promoting these philosophies come of age and come into power

00:19:03.440 as much as anything, you know, like a lot of these just gender theory stuff. I, I guess I got to see

00:19:09.980 a lot of it early because I went to art school in New York city in early nineties. And, uh, the art

00:19:16.360 school I went to was actually a division for the new school of social research. Uh, so I learned how at a

00:19:22.180 very young age, how to draw a line on a canvas and make it about, uh, social class disparity,

00:19:28.220 you know, like all sorts of weird formulations that don't really match up. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean,

00:19:35.100 that's how you get an A and that's what people have been taught for a long time. And so like,

00:19:40.020 that's, and at the time I didn't know any better and hadn't really explored all those ideas,

00:19:43.720 but you know, like you, you find out how you can write, write a description of a piece of art that

00:19:49.100 you made that plays into, uh, some ideas about gender constructed gender and challenging that

00:19:56.560 idea and all that kind of stuff. And I, I was doing that in 1994 or whatever. So, uh, you know,

00:20:02.060 I saw a lot of this stuff coming way before, I think a lot of guys, when I started writing about

00:20:07.580 this, a lot of guys were like, what's all that about? I haven't, I haven't, I don't have to deal

00:20:11.700 with that, you know, radical feminists or whatever. We're just in some faraway place that they didn't

00:20:16.500 have to deal with. And now everyone has to deal with it. And, and so it's, it's become a thing

00:20:21.460 that's, you know, mainstream and a problem that no man can really get away from. It's an, it's an

00:20:27.700 interesting point. Um, I'm sure you're, you're, you're familiar with logical fallacies and ad hominem

00:20:34.940 attacks and things like this. Right. And one thing that's been traditionally painted as an, as a

00:20:41.120 logical fallacy is the slippery slope fallacy. Yes. Where, you know, Oh, well, you know,

00:20:47.500 you're projecting out into the future, what might be, but that's a fallacy because that's not what

00:20:52.400 is. And yet what you're explaining right now is a slippery slope. You know, you have a bunch of

00:20:56.840 teenagers or early twenties going into these schools, learning these concepts, trying to get

00:21:02.240 their A's, but also being frankly, indoctrinated into this ideology. And now these are individuals who

00:21:08.520 are CEOs, they're running for office and now they're legislating based on what they learned

00:21:13.980 20, 30, 40 years ago. Absolutely. And you know, the slippery slope thing that wasn't necessarily

00:21:20.980 destined to happen. It didn't have to happen, but you could see how it would. Right. And now it has,

00:21:27.660 you know, something could have affected, you know, changed things along the way. Cause that's the way

00:21:32.020 slippery slopes work. You know, it's like, it doesn't, it's not necessarily going to go there,

00:21:36.500 but it looks like there's a strong possibility. Well, I think about that even with something as

00:21:41.680 silly as, you know, it being winter here in Maine and you got the driveway that's iced over.

00:21:46.360 I mean, I don't have to slip on the ice. It's a stronger likelihood that I might because it's icy

00:21:52.240 and slippery, but I could watch my step and be a little bit, uh, aware of, of my footing and actually

00:21:59.640 get to my truck without slipping. But the odds are increased because it's slippery. Oh, absolutely.

00:22:06.700 Yeah. Yeah. And, and what's, what's really happened and what I'm seeing more and more that people

00:22:12.260 aren't really seeing, you know, they're just becoming aware of it now is that because we really

00:22:19.680 let all those people take all, take over the culture. Um, you know, they run all the magazines

00:22:28.600 like there, there's no print media about any of us or anybody doing anything positive about

00:22:34.500 masculinity doesn't exist. Do you think people would care if we, I mean, look, I guess people

00:22:39.220 care because both you and I are very successful in our own right. Yeah. But do you think if we were

00:22:43.940 to create some sort of traditional media outlet or a magazine or a book or whatever, that it actually

00:22:48.860 could compete with some of these, I've heard the term legacy media. I'm not sure if I completely

00:22:53.840 like that term, but I think we understand the point, the, the concept of legacy media. What are your

00:22:59.360 thoughts with that? Well, I think that it wouldn't be a matter of, I mean, you're not going to jump

00:23:04.760 onto newsstands and airports. It's like tomorrow, right? Right. Of course. Uh, but I do think that

00:23:10.040 that needs to exist because otherwise there is no counter. And so, you know, legacy media exists

00:23:17.240 because it was, it's been around for, I mean, how long has the New York times been around?

00:23:21.000 Right. Yeah. You know, I mean, how many of a staff do they have? How much money they have?

00:23:24.780 All these things take time. And so, no, I don't think, and we live in a different era now. I don't

00:23:30.840 know if you need to put out a printed magazine every month to, to make an impact in the world in the same

00:23:36.580 way that you would have before, but, uh, you know, hold my beer, maybe I'm working on that.

00:23:40.480 Uh, so are you announcing something right here? Like we, we got to know, man, are you making

00:23:46.840 an announcement right here? I don't know. I have to talk with somebody I'm working with on this

00:23:48.880 project, but no, we could, uh, I think that there needs to be more than one too. There needs to be a

00:23:54.340 lot of print media because basically what is, what is vanity fair or a lot of these mainstream

00:24:01.000 magazines or whatever there, there are people with the same viewpoint congratulating each other for

00:24:04.720 doing well. Like, yeah. I mean, I call it a big circle jerk, right? I mean, that's really what it is.

00:24:10.120 Kind of, but, but at the same time, I mean, you're, they're doing it in a very sophisticated

00:24:14.980 way and you're, you're getting like high-end kind of literature and interviews and whatever

00:24:18.780 out of that. And, and, uh, and that's, that creates this track record, you know, that we

00:24:25.660 don't, that we don't have. I think that, uh, you know, cause I was talking about men's

00:24:29.820 magazines, uh, a while back and really the men's magazines now are like what recoil, you

00:24:36.080 know, like recoil. Like, I mean, I mean, you even look at things like men's

00:24:40.000 health and men's fitness. I think it's men's health magazine. It's not a men's magazine.

00:24:44.720 No, no. They're not written for men in any way that we would understand the definition.

00:24:49.300 And it's like, they're, they're not even written for normal gay men. They're like the,

00:24:54.380 the things you see on the cover and whatever. It's very urban and it's a very small population.

00:24:59.700 They're really written for it. I think it's this, maybe they're loss leaders for some bigger

00:25:03.200 company or something.

00:25:04.000 What do you, so look, all right, let's talk about, let's talk about gay men. Cause you

00:25:08.700 bring it up. Like, so you say it's not written for gay men, but I think the stereotype is that

00:25:15.380 it is actually. And I would like you to talk about that.

00:25:19.880 Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, regular gay men don't wear dresses.

00:25:25.120 Yeah. Good point. Good point. And I'm not suggesting they do for sure.

00:25:29.400 They really aren't. I mean, most of those guys are like wearing jeans and t-shirts like everybody

00:25:33.560 else and going to bars and they, you know, they're just trying to get laid and to live their lives.

00:25:38.140 They aren't really all that. Like that's a very small group with even in that population.

00:25:44.260 Sure. Yeah. Makes sense.

00:25:45.940 Fashion, whatever. I mean, those guys, I mean, those guys are like, we're going to barista somewhere.

00:25:50.420 I think we believe that because it's perpetuated on, on TV, you know, for, so I'll give you an

00:25:56.420 example. My wife and I have started watching the show Schitt's Creek and the, I don't know if

00:26:02.320 you've seen it, but the sun is a very flamboyant, obviously feminine gay man. And so that's what we

00:26:11.660 see. And so that's what we believe. Well, and that's always been the thing. And I wrote about that

00:26:17.100 years ago, but it's, it's, uh, that's obviously that, yeah, they're the ones sending the big

00:26:22.700 signals. If some dude's acting normal, you don't know it. Yeah. You know, that's, he's

00:26:28.340 blending in, he's blending in. Uh, and you know, there is definitely a, a bigger percentage

00:26:32.980 in that community of that, that way of behavior. Sure. Right. And it's part of the stereotype.

00:26:39.040 It's like, if you've, if you've signed up for that, now that's who I have to become. It's part

00:26:43.060 of the package of identity that, and so there, there's a performative aspect there. They,

00:26:47.480 they change their language and, and certain things that when they become part of that community,

00:26:51.440 you know, you hang out with, if, if I go hang out with hunting dudes, I'm going to pick up their

00:26:55.660 turns of phrase. So look, I'm so glad you brought that up because look, we're going to talk about

00:27:00.140 the disparity between, and again, I'm speaking in generalities, the homosexual community, for

00:27:04.780 example, and the hunting community, which I don't think generally you would associate with

00:27:09.740 that with the homosexual community generally. Okay. So you use the term performative aspect.

00:27:17.580 I believe that's right. Whatever community you belong to. Oh yeah. If you're, if you're part of

00:27:23.580 the homosexual community, the hunter community, the CrossFit community, the, the, the body positive

00:27:29.600 movement, the vegan community, pick a community. Jiu-jitsu. Exactly. Another good point. Right.

00:27:35.360 Yeah. Or, or, or I've talked about it. Guys are sick of hearing it. Building a canoe. It's like,

00:27:39.620 okay, well there's a community of woodworkers, right? So, right. And there is a performative

00:27:44.520 aspect. One thing that you've talked about that I really, really appreciate, and you actually

00:27:50.740 checked me on this years ago, is you said it isn't disingenuous and I'm paraphrasing here. So

00:27:57.420 I want you to clarify, but it isn't disingenuous to work on making yourself more. So some people

00:28:05.520 perceive it as performative. And yet I think you make the case of, no, I'm actually just trying to

00:28:11.060 be the best version of that individual who I want myself to be. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

00:28:17.480 Everybody, everybody wants to make it, you know, cause there's this, uh, this value is such with

00:28:22.800 being authentically, whoever you are and unchanged in some way, like you, you just arrived and that's

00:28:29.080 who you are. And anyone who, uh, has really improved their lives in any way or made themselves

00:28:34.900 better has had to work on it. You know, I mean, uh, people look at like old things of me and they're

00:28:40.540 like, Oh, you like, I'm faking now because I'm different. You know, like, no, I said, Hey,

00:28:46.960 you could change who you are. And I did. And, and, and, uh, people have talked about like my voice.

00:28:53.400 I have a narrator voice, uh, that I use for different things. And now it's actually just a

00:28:57.480 bigger part of my voice. It's not always, I mean, obviously I go all over the place and I'm, you

00:29:02.500 know, if I'm going to be happy to party, I'm talking a different way than I'm talking, you know,

00:29:06.640 what I'm doing, Jack Donovan, narrator voice. And so, you know, but it is, that is my voice has

00:29:14.160 changed from doing that for long enough. That's become part of who I am. And I liked it that way.

00:29:19.420 And that was the goal, you know, so it should be that right. I mean, my body has changed and that

00:29:26.740 changes who you are. And that's a big thing that I've talked about. And I'm sure you've experienced

00:29:30.480 that with, uh, worth working out and with jujitsu and everything. When you, uh, when you are putting

00:29:37.880 yourself through any kind of physical trial with, uh, you know, grappling and so forth, you're,

00:29:43.880 you're fighting other men all the time. And that changes how you perceive yourself.

00:29:49.420 And them and, and, and whatever that changes who you are. And, and that's why I think that it's so

00:29:55.600 important for men to do those kinds of things because they, it changes, it changes, it changes

00:30:01.040 them and it's good. And, and, uh, one of the things that I said, I've said it a few times recently,

00:30:07.560 it's happened to me because if you would have asked me if I was, when I was 27 years old,

00:30:11.720 if I thought of myself as being strong, like physically strong, I'd be like, I guess I'm

00:30:18.020 kind of strong. I don't know. Sure. Right. And now it's like a weird characteristic that people

00:30:22.660 associate me with me that I like, I've had to get used to because I got a lot stronger over a lot of

00:30:29.280 years. And, uh, we were doing something in jujitsu and there was this like 17 year old and I, I, he was

00:30:34.780 trying to arm bar me and I just lifted his whole body up and, uh, you know, and, and I got kind

00:30:40.740 of in trouble for it, uh, because the coach was like, you should escape from that. Technically he's

00:30:45.300 small. Yeah. The point is not to be strong. It's to be technical. Right. Right. Right. I was just

00:30:48.840 laughing while I was doing it. Cause I think it's funny that I can, but I had to think about it,

00:30:52.940 but like, am I a bully now? Like, when did that happen? You know, like, you know, and that's just

00:30:59.220 because my body has changed and my aptitudes have changed. And so you just, it changes who you are

00:31:05.580 in all kinds of different ways. And so that now, yeah, I, I, I, I'm a pretty strong guy for my size

00:31:12.100 and, uh, and people comment on it all the time. And so it's just part of who I am. And that wasn't

00:31:16.620 part of who I was before, but it comes from challenging yourself and changing, like pushing

00:31:22.960 your boundaries. You know, like, I'm sure you have a million things that you've done over the past

00:31:26.660 few years that you're like, Oh, I can do that now. I mean, the same with narrating a book,

00:31:32.080 I mean, or doing podcasts or public speaking or anything that you have to do. All that stuff

00:31:36.400 was fake it till you make it. But it's weird because people will say that, and here's one

00:31:41.280 of the things I get and not a lot, but you know, there's a fringe of people who say things like,

00:31:45.760 Oh, you're compensating. You're over. And in a way, you know what? They're right. Because that's

00:31:50.300 actually true. Like I didn't consider myself good enough at whatever it is you're addressing

00:31:55.960 right now. And so I'm compensating by shoring up my weaknesses. You're pointing it out as

00:32:02.520 some sort of deficiency or flaw or negative thing. And I look at it and think, yeah, you're

00:32:07.260 right. I wasn't good enough at whatever. And so now I'm practicing whatever let's take jujitsu

00:32:14.280 so that I can be more competent. Yes. I'm compensating, but that doesn't make me disingenuous.

00:32:21.260 Right. Yeah. I mean, if you, if you, it's like, uh, anytime you realize a weakness in yourself

00:32:27.980 and try to fix it, you're overcompensating. I recognize the weakness. Therefore I have to work

00:32:33.560 on it. Therefore I'm overcompensating. And you do a little bit, and this happens with masculinity

00:32:38.080 and all kinds of things and everything else. Uh, there is a little bit of a pendulum. Like you, uh,

00:32:43.300 you may be overshoot a little bit where you needed to be. And then you become a little bit more

00:32:48.020 confident and you settle in something that looks a little more comfortable. I mean, I would say

00:32:52.740 you have to overshoot. You have to, I'd say that with my early narration. Like it's a little bit

00:32:57.040 like my first book that I narrated. It was a little bit like overly, blah, blah, blah. And it went a

00:33:01.860 little big with it. And now it's, I can find a comfortable like place with it because I've been

00:33:06.620 doing it for so long. And I, you know, like you have to feel out where the far end of it is and then

00:33:11.460 find where it's comfortable and feels right. I think a lot of men are afraid of the perception.

00:33:19.160 If I try quote unquote too hard, you're talking about narration. Oh, well, you know, if I do that,

00:33:25.820 what will people think of me? Or if I go to jujitsu, what will people think? Or if I do this

00:33:30.200 thing or that thing, people will accuse me or point fingers or laugh or poke or whatever it is

00:33:35.860 that they do. And so they just don't at all. They just settle for mediocrity. And then they

00:33:41.920 try to justify to themselves. Well, you know, the reason I don't work out is because I'm happy with

00:33:48.340 how I am. And that's a huge lie. And people know it's a lie and it's, it's destructive. It's damaging

00:33:55.340 to their own psyche and wellbeing. Yeah. Well, people know it's a lie, but they'll get enough

00:34:00.500 affirmation for saying it from other people who feel the same way, you know? And so it becomes very

00:34:05.600 comfortable. There'll be a ton of other people around them who also are afraid to go try something

00:34:10.600 new and then just want to accept who they are. And so there's this big affirmation cycle that a lot

00:34:15.660 of people get in because people wouldn't do it if everyone was like, shut up, you're full of it.

00:34:20.420 Which I think more people should say, like, screw off, like, don't be happy with being fat. Like,

00:34:25.140 and people say, well, that's, that's, that's your, your, your, your fat shaming or your,

00:34:30.400 your phobic of something. It's like, no, I just think people should actually strive to not be fat.

00:34:35.380 And instead be more physically fit. I'm not afraid of that. I just think it'll be better

00:34:39.960 for people. Yeah. And you know, that's, you know, as I finished up doing the audio book of this book

00:34:46.000 the other day, uh, that's one of my favorite parts at the end of the book where I talk about,

00:34:49.520 I mean, there's certain, you know, you know, truths that are self-evident that have always been,

00:34:55.040 men have always recognized that transcend religion and transcend different cultures and whatever.

00:34:59.360 It's like, we've always thought it was better to be beautiful than it is to be ugly and better to

00:35:03.820 be smart than it is to be dumb and better to be strong than it is to be weak and better to be

00:35:08.040 courageous than it is to be afraid. And, you know, obviously, you know, the person who can't move

00:35:13.300 around because, you know, I've been heavier and lighter in my life. And I can tell you just 15

00:35:18.500 pounds away from where I am right now is a huge difference in my capability. You know, like as far

00:35:24.660 as me being just getting tired and just getting tired and being uncomfortable. Right. And you can

00:35:33.480 tell me that you're comfortable like that all you want, but if you're walking around at 260 and you're

00:35:38.060 my size, that is not comfortable. It's not comfortable. You have no idea like how much that hurts. And if

00:35:43.880 you've always been that way, maybe you don't realize what health even is. Uh, you know, like

00:35:49.120 you've diluted yourself a little bit for sure. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, because how could you sleep at

00:35:53.140 night if you didn't like, if you know, for example, look, I've been 50 pounds overweight more than I

00:35:58.160 was today. And I remember a cathartic moment for me. I went into the gym and I picked up a 45 pound

00:36:02.640 plate and I'm like, no wonder I was tired all the time. I, a 45 pound plate is not insignificant.

00:36:09.060 That's a heavy chunk of weight. And so I'm picking this up. I'm like, holy cow. This was at night.

00:36:14.520 This was wrapped around my neck. Yeah. This was wrapped around my lungs. And no wonder I was snoring

00:36:20.560 and I had restless leg syndrome and I was uncomfortable and I couldn't sleep. And I was

00:36:24.280 exhausted because I was carrying this around every day, all day, even into my sleep for my entire

00:36:31.340 life. What a horrible position to be in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, as I said, that should be

00:36:37.580 self-evident, you know, like to most people, like that looks uncomfortable. I mean, I always pay people.

00:36:42.580 I always see people like try to run when they're really heavy to lose weight. I'm like,

00:36:46.420 that's got to hurt. Uh, like I I've tried to run heavy and I wouldn't start there or doing pull-ups.

00:36:54.380 Yeah. Right. But I mean, look, I come in, look, I'm not going to judge it. Look, I see,

00:36:59.400 I see obese individuals in the gym. Oh yeah. And I think that's awesome. Excellent. No. Yeah.

00:37:05.740 That person's trying to improve themselves. Yeah. They're a lot. They're always afraid that people

00:37:10.080 are judging them and maybe somebody who has a really, of course, there's always an a-hole themselves are,

00:37:14.200 but, uh, yeah, when I, when I see people like that, I'm like, well, would you rather them be

00:37:18.800 there or McDonald's? Exactly. You know, they need to be at the gym. That's where they should be.

00:37:22.840 And so that's that they're, they're working on a problem rather than just not working on a problem.

00:37:27.900 I think what people run into a lot or either they, they run into it or they tell themselves

00:37:32.180 is that those pursuits are, are, are more about vanity than they are functionality or feeling good

00:37:37.660 about yourself. For example, uh, I've been broke in my life and I've also been in a position

00:37:43.780 where, you know, we're relatively wealthy and we can take care of our finances and mortgages and

00:37:48.220 buy the things that we want to go on the vacations and whatnot. Right. Yeah. And I'll hear people say

00:37:55.060 things like, well, you know, I, I, I care about my kids too much to like worry about pursuing my career

00:38:02.780 and building wealth. It's like, yeah, I, well, okay. I, I can appreciate that. You're presenting a false

00:38:12.640 dichotomy here though. And saying that you can either be wealthy or care about your kids. There's,

00:38:17.820 there's a third and an infinite number of options where you can actually build wealth and still be

00:38:23.920 an extremely successful father, figure, husband, patriarch of your home, et cetera.

00:38:30.440 All right, man, let me take a quick pause on the conversation really, really quickly. Uh, I think

00:38:35.120 most of us pride ourselves in being prepared to deal with whatever life has to offer us. Uh, after all,

00:38:41.700 it was Douglas Wilson who said the real man gains renown by standing between his family and destruction,

00:38:47.200 absorbing the blows of fate with equanimity. And the question remains, are you really prepared for

00:38:53.900 what may come your way? And that's the question that we're working to answer this month in our

00:38:58.460 exclusive brotherhood, the iron council. Uh, we're going to be discussing and challenging each other

00:39:03.460 to focus on the priorities of preparedness, uh, shoring up our weaknesses, and basically just

00:39:08.260 holding each other accountable to put ourselves and our families in a better position should

00:39:13.520 disaster strike. And on top of all that, you're going to get the accountability and guidance and

00:39:18.960 direction when you band with us inside of the iron council. So to get prepared for whatever life may

00:39:24.880 have to throw at you and unlock access to the accountability needed to thrive. You can learn

00:39:30.100 more and join us at order of man.com slash iron council. Again, that's order of man.com slash

00:39:36.360 iron council. Do that right after the show for now. Let's get back to it with Jack.

00:39:42.040 Yeah. I mean, in fact, you could be more successful. I mean, there's that big,

00:39:46.000 there's that idea that, uh, this old kind of 1950s or eighties or whatever thing that comes around

00:39:52.680 where like the successful man never sees his children and he's always far away and there's songs

00:39:57.000 about it and all that kind of stuff. I figure out what that popular one from like the seventies or

00:40:01.080 eighties is, but, uh, um, where dad becomes son just becomes just like his dad and then, you know,

00:40:07.300 whatever. But, uh, there is that idea, but I think the other happy medium and obviously you have a lot

00:40:12.840 more to give your kids if you have more money and, and, and as we've learned over the past year,

00:40:17.140 especially money is freedom. Uh, it has a lot to do. I mean, I was lucky enough that I could

00:40:22.780 rent the space and that I can have guys over here to roll when I thought maybe the gyms might all

00:40:27.700 close down, you know, like, Oh, I can go do that. You could, or you can build a home gym where you

00:40:32.040 can do, there's a lot of things that you can do that you can't do if you're poor. And man, I was,

00:40:35.840 I was glad that I've, I've been a delivery guy making like no money. Uh, really for most of my

00:40:41.560 life, I made about the exact same amount of money for years and years and years. And, uh, you know,

00:40:46.640 I've only been self-employed for about five years, five, six years, something like that. And, uh,

00:40:51.640 yeah, I mean, I, man, that would have hit me hard, you know, when I had nothing in the bank

00:40:58.960 really. And like, you know, no cushion, no, anything you would have been desperate. You know,

00:41:04.940 I would, I would have been desperate definitely for, you know, and that a lot of people are in

00:41:08.420 that situation still. I mean, I'm just lucky that I was not, you know, at that point, but, uh,

00:41:12.920 I don't know if you're lucky or, I mean, let's, let's not, let's not gloss over fortunate events,

00:41:17.680 but you've also created it for yourself too. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean,

00:41:21.640 I've definitely made some smart choices that I'm proud of. Uh, but you know, I mean, there,

00:41:26.400 there was a lot of years where, you know, I was equally smart. I just didn't figure it out yet.

00:41:29.680 You know, there's lots of guys who have a lot of potential and they're just not there,

00:41:33.460 you know, like at 25, I wasn't there, you know? And so it's like, there is that, that's the luck

00:41:40.140 of it is like when, when stuff happens to you in life. Right. Right. Well, and you said, you,

00:41:45.940 you said something interesting that I don't know if I totally agree with. You said what wealth is,

00:41:49.580 or money is freedom. You said something like that. I think it can represent that. But I also

00:41:54.340 think if you become so fixated and addicted to the wealth proportion of it, without what it

00:42:00.200 represents, that it actually can be self-imposed shackles because if all you're chasing is the

00:42:06.660 dollar or the zeros in your bank account, then are you really presenting and giving yourself freedom

00:42:11.580 or are you just shackling yourself to chasing that endeavor or that pursuit?

00:42:15.140 Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, there's, I mean, I look at, I definitely look at money as freedom

00:42:20.840 because I just want to have enough money to do the stuff I want. You know, I just want

00:42:24.280 to have to work on cool projects and do the stuff I want. And that's, that's, but yeah,

00:42:28.500 no, some guys are really become obsessed with money itself. And I wish maybe I was a little

00:42:33.880 bit more that way because I would make more money because there is a thing like if you're super

00:42:37.560 into making money, you get excited by it and you're good at things that you get excited

00:42:41.680 about to a certain extent. And so guys who are really into making money, you know, have

00:42:47.100 that going for them that, you know, I don't, I'm like, I'm doing fine. This is cool. Like

00:42:51.080 I'm good where I'm good where I'm at, you know, like I'm satisfied where I'm at. But you know,

00:42:55.880 so there's a happy medium, I think there, you know, with that, but definitely, yeah, if you

00:43:00.500 think about nothing else but money and obviously status, like status purchases and things like

00:43:06.680 that, there's certain people who get fixated on that kind of thing. And then, you know,

00:43:10.660 then you're buying things you can't really afford, you know, and working to afford the

00:43:15.460 thing. I mean, it's that fight club thing, like buy, you know, to buy things we don't

00:43:19.780 even need, you know?

00:43:20.660 Right. Well, there's status purchases, but there's, then there's also, uh, status

00:43:26.480 signaling and, and, and status virtues. Like, you know, I'm more, I'm more honorable than

00:43:32.000 you, or I, I care more about the animals than you. And so you're inferior to me or, you

00:43:37.900 know, I care about gun legislation because I don't want to see people die. And so that

00:43:41.500 makes me, that makes me superior to you. Or I care about open borders because, you know,

00:43:46.880 I care about people and you don't. And so these are status, status signaling versus status

00:43:53.100 purchases.

00:43:54.700 Right. Well, it's really easy to gain status by having a feeling. Uh, you know, I mean,

00:44:00.200 that's what that is. I'm demonstrating a feeling. I don't, all the things that you've worked

00:44:04.700 for that, you know, would theoretically make you better than me or more accomplished,

00:44:09.680 but I have a feeling that's better than your feeling. Therefore I become, I mean, that's

00:44:14.140 an easy, easy way to make you feel like you're better than somebody, you know, it's, you don't

00:44:19.460 actually have to accomplish anything to have a feeling. Uh, so yeah. I mean, everybody has

00:44:24.200 them. Yeah. Like, like that isn't something unique to you. We all have a feeling about things

00:44:29.040 positive or negative. Yeah. It like, I, I feel very strongly about many things. Uh, that doesn't

00:44:34.920 mean my opinion really even matters sometimes, but I think that's actually one of the problems

00:44:39.120 of social media. I love social media because it's afforded me the opportunities that you

00:44:43.400 and I have to talk and, and, and us to build this movement and you as well to build your movement

00:44:47.860 and share your ideas. Uh, but you know, one of the problems is that we've given everybody

00:44:52.020 a voice and they begin to believe that their voice is relevant or equal or superior or just

00:44:56.840 as good as anybody else. And look, the fact of the matter is some opinions matter and

00:45:01.360 some actually don't, or they carry less weight than others. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, you

00:45:07.260 know, well, it's, you know, it's like the cliche. It's like, if you do anything, uh, athletic

00:45:12.100 online, there's a million people who have an opinion, but most of them don't know what they're

00:45:16.660 talking about. Right. Like, uh, you know, like that's, uh, you know, it's whether it's someone

00:45:21.100 coaching a still from a jujitsu, like, like I had a posted a picture of me rolling with somebody

00:45:27.720 and you get people coaching it. I'm like, it's, you should have done this. You should have done

00:45:31.600 that. Like it's a still of like, within I took 3000 pictures that day. That was a still,

00:45:37.720 um, but you know, and we get the same thing with lifting or anything like that. You always get some

00:45:42.820 guy who's 18 and read three blogs about it and is telling you what to do. And the absurdity of that

00:45:49.380 was, I mean, when I used to hang out with this, uh, professional power lifter, uh, you know,

00:45:53.940 who was like a 900 pound squatter and he was always having people tell him he did not a squad.

00:45:58.680 And like, you know, and like, who are you? Right. That it's, uh, and that's one of the bad

00:46:06.920 things about the democratic ideal, I think is that it, it created the, the sense that everybody's

00:46:13.720 opinion is always equal. Like, and that's not necessarily what I think the founders really meant.

00:46:19.380 Uh, but it, it, that's very American. I think even more than anything else, it's like, uh,

00:46:27.060 people even say, you know, just comments on the internet, right? Everybody has everybody's

00:46:31.640 opinion. People hate it when you close down comments. And, uh, I'm like, I don't need comments

00:46:37.000 on this. And, uh, you don't, I, I always say, and this is just me from being on the internet

00:46:42.160 for a long time. I'm like, I don't have to provide a platform for you to insult me. Um, you're

00:46:46.680 free to do that. Like in some other way.

00:46:49.780 Create your own platform to do that, but I don't have to like provide the space for you to do it.

00:46:54.880 Right. That's like, you're coming into my house and insulting me. And I'm like, I'm not doing that.

00:46:59.060 Yeah. And here, welcome. Come in and stay here and insult me and my family and put us at risk

00:47:03.680 and threaten us. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Come on in. Nobody would ever do that.

00:47:07.020 Yeah. No, thank you. Not going to do it.

00:47:08.880 Well, I think when you take this concept of freedom and freedom of speech and the right

00:47:13.780 to say things, if you don't marry that and couple that with individual responsibility,

00:47:18.780 that's where we run into issues. So, you know, for example, I have an individual responsibility

00:47:24.180 to listen to you and other people that might conflict with your ideas. And then it's my

00:47:29.180 responsibility as an individual and a leader of my family and friends and colleagues and people

00:47:36.000 who follow along to then discern, okay, is Jack right here? Or is Joe right? Or maybe Jack's

00:47:44.400 partially right. And maybe Joe's partially right. But it's an individual responsibility for me to

00:47:49.320 discern that information, not just to assume that both you and Joe are equal in whatever your thoughts

00:47:55.920 or perspectives are. But we've absolved personal responsibility, right? It's not, oh, no, it's not the

00:48:00.780 individual. Jack, it's your fault. If you're saying the wrong thing, that's your fault. No,

00:48:05.320 it's the person who's trying to decipher that information or not whose responsibility it actually

00:48:10.300 is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, obviously we can incite them to, to, to, to whatever,

00:48:17.280 you know, and then, and then absolves them of responsibility for their actions. Yeah. What's your

00:48:22.380 take on a, I know we haven't talked a lot about the book because I mean, every time we have a

00:48:25.920 conversation, I love it. We can go a thousand different directions, but one of the things you talk

00:48:29.200 about is, is the concept of religion versus spirituality. And, and, and I'm always curious

00:48:34.340 about that because I am both a, I would consider myself a spiritual and a religious person. And I'm

00:48:40.400 really interested in your perspective on the differences and the values of, of each spirituality

00:48:45.420 and religion. Well, I think religion generally speaking is an established form. You're doing

00:48:53.520 something that's, that's been repeated. Actually ritual, I think the original Latin goes to mean

00:48:59.140 the writer proven way. Uh, so the, it's something that's been tested and you, we do it a certain

00:49:04.100 way all the time. Right. And that's the way most churches are and so forth. And so there's a certain

00:49:08.440 way that you do things and there's certain, uh, establishment and structure, uh, to that. Whereas

00:49:13.180 when people say spiritual, sometimes I mean that they're, yeah, they just want to say something that

00:49:18.080 doesn't mean anything. You know, they want to say something vaguely positive. The one I hear all the

00:49:23.220 time is guys will say, you know, I'm up here in the mountains or I'm fishing and this is how I connect

00:49:26.900 with God. I'm like, that actually might be true, but they make it sound like anything outside of

00:49:33.200 just organically connecting is the right and proper way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously there are a

00:49:40.520 bunch of ways to, you know, catch that fish. Uh, and, and for again, different voices for different

00:49:48.620 people, we were different and different things work for different people. Uh, I do think that,

00:49:53.540 yeah, a lot of guys do have that experience and, and, you know, being out in nature, uh, you do

00:49:59.920 ascertain something eternal. There's some mountains are bigger than you and they're older than any of

00:50:06.240 us. You know, there, there's big old things out of the world. I think that you can appreciate them

00:50:10.920 that way, but that's just, you know, to say that, uh, also, you know, studying a religious text

00:50:17.720 does not have value. I mean, that's like wisdom of mankind written down for thousands and thousands

00:50:23.620 of years. Yeah. For thousands and thousands of years, whether you're talking about like, you know,

00:50:26.820 some of the myths or whatever that I'm talking about, whether you're talking about the Bible,

00:50:29.420 you're talking about, uh, you know, ancient wisdom really. And so much of it hasn't changed.

00:50:34.820 And it's, that's, that's one of the great things about, you know, when I was writing this book,

00:50:39.100 uh, you know, I was seeing so many overlapping ideas. Right. And, uh, you know, whether you're

00:50:45.260 reading, you know, ancient Greek philosophers or you're reading, you know, uh, the Havamal from,

00:50:50.620 uh, the old Norse, uh, there's huge parts of it. They're just basic good guy advice. Uh, you know,

00:50:59.380 it's, uh, uh, Heraclitus, uh, you know, uh, theogony and works in days and like that stuff is like,

00:51:06.700 you know, basic guy advice. Like you shouldn't spend too much money. You should, you should,

00:51:11.620 you know, you should respect this and you're going to have to work hard if you want things in life and

00:51:16.360 things that either you or I would say to anybody, if they asked for good advice,

00:51:21.060 of course, giving the same advice in ancient Greece and, and, uh, they were attributed to Odin

00:51:26.700 in, uh, you know, the old Norse and so much of it is just good advice. And so like to say that

00:51:33.500 there's no value in reading that good advice is, is foolish and can be lazy, you know, because

00:51:40.160 some guys are not readers. Hey, they don't, they're just like, they don't want to read anything.

00:51:44.320 And, uh, and that's a little bit of laziness, uh, you know, in certain ways. So it's harder for

00:51:49.460 some guys and it is for others, but, um, you know, I think that we all can do that. You know,

00:51:54.080 if you can make it through life, if you can read an email and you can make a comment on the internet,

00:51:57.780 you can sure, uh, read a book and you can also filter it through your lens and determine what

00:52:03.540 is accurate and what is good and what is righteous and what will serve you and what won't, you know,

00:52:07.280 I mean, and what is useful at what time in your life. Yeah. Good point. It changes with books is

00:52:12.380 that, you know, you can read a book when you're 25 and it's garbage to you. Like it's like, there's

00:52:17.020 nothing or you interpret it in an entirely different way. And then, uh, you know, as you get older,

00:52:22.120 you might come back to the same book and, uh, like, this is amazing. Like this is, this is exactly

00:52:28.460 right. This is exactly what I read. I wanted to read right now. Right. I mean, I did that with a

00:52:32.660 lot of Nietzsche's work, you know, it's like you read it and you know, for the quotes, like most people

00:52:36.400 do people read Nietzsche and they're like, here's some, you know, some bad-ass quotes that I can put

00:52:40.440 into some stuff or whatever, when you're younger. And then, you know, I, I get to a different point in

00:52:44.580 life. And I think in a weird way, me and Nietzsche have a bunch of stuff in common and, you know,

00:52:49.160 or I can listen to an audio book of, uh, you know, thus fake Zarathustra and be like laughing

00:52:54.180 out loud. Like, Oh, I get that. Yeah. Good one, man. You know, and like, we're having a conversation,

00:53:00.040 you know, and I couldn't have done that at 25. Cause I didn't know enough, you know what? I didn't

00:53:04.580 know enough about certain things that I didn't know the references he was making and all kinds of

00:53:07.640 things. Uh, so you can get different things out of different things at, uh, you know, different

00:53:12.400 points in your life. Yeah. And I think that goes against the grain of what I, what I've dubbed is a

00:53:16.920 doctrine of popular culture, which is you just take the sound snippet and then you interpret it

00:53:21.060 through whatever lens or whatever narrative you want it to fit. And then it means what it means,

00:53:24.580 like Nietzsche's, uh, uh, God is dead, for example, you know, you write that quoted a lot.

00:53:29.320 Well, let's, let's, let's actually think about the context in which he was saying that let's,

00:53:35.040 let's look at the other text that supports that, or that the dances around that, and then look at it

00:53:40.420 as a collective body and determine what he was actually saying versus what we think we want him to be

00:53:45.120 saying. Right. I mean, obviously like that, that's a big, a lot of, a lot of Christians hate Nietzsche

00:53:50.300 and, and, you know, he, it's sure, of course, for sure. Uh, but, uh, I mean, he was like, I think

00:53:55.620 his father was a pastor, but, uh, it's yeah. If you look at the context of that, and that was actually

00:54:02.940 the first chapter of the book, I talk about that because what he was really talking about is a

00:54:08.000 collapse of moral consensus and a collapse of like agreement on what is good and what it, what,

00:54:15.320 what is the right life path and what is all the values of society were really collapsing.

00:54:19.880 And it was probably in part because, you know, that, that break between Protestantism and,

00:54:24.280 and Catholicism, because when it was all Catholicism, everybody was on the same page,

00:54:28.460 you know, Pope said, that's what we did. And then that's what we're questioning. That's what it is.

00:54:33.600 And then there's that one break. And then that really started a lot of other breaks that eventually

00:54:38.560 became tons and tons of different, like sex and, and, and things. And, uh, uh, and so you have a

00:54:44.220 whole bunch of people with a whole bunch of different takes on things. And, uh, that, that creates a lot

00:54:50.600 of room to move for different people. And, uh, that's what he was really talking about. And I think that

00:54:55.880 we're existing in the like final end. Well, I don't know. I mean, it could go deeper. I don't know.

00:55:01.160 Like we're existing in this collapse of moral consensus is what we're really seeing in America

00:55:06.900 right now. And all around the world is that we can't agree on what is good. And we can't actually

00:55:13.800 even agree on what facts are. Yeah. And that's a huge problem in society because then I literally

00:55:21.000 don't trust anything. I read in the news because like anymore, you can't, how can you? Yeah. And

00:55:26.860 that's new. Uh, that's very, I mean, 50 years ago, you know, if Walter Conkite said a thing,

00:55:33.700 everybody was like, Oh, well, clearly that made some sense. That's exactly what it is.

00:55:37.660 Right. Yeah. That's must be what happened. But now I assume they're lying to me about most things

00:55:43.600 or that they're, they're, they're either lying or that the information is incomplete or, you know,

00:55:50.120 it, we haven't, you know, like when they have shooters and so forth like that, you know,

00:55:54.000 the first day commentary is always wrong. Right. So here's what everyone's going to say.

00:55:59.060 Yeah. But then people get pissed at you because you didn't offer commentary. That's what people do

00:56:02.920 to me is like, well, you know, you had this shooting situation and you didn't provide any

00:56:06.960 commentary. I'm like, I know, because I would like to see how this develops before I formulate

00:56:11.460 a concise, coherent opinion on the actual thing that took place.

00:56:16.900 Yeah. Instead of just running your mouth, which is what they want you to do. They run your mouth and

00:56:20.600 tell me how to feel about this. Yes. Is what, you know, that's the job of a pundit. Really.

00:56:24.880 They want you to be a pundit. Tell me how I'm supposed to feel about this event because I'm

00:56:28.140 not sure how I feel about it. And you don't know yet. If you, if you're being responsible about

00:56:33.740 what comes out of your mouth, you don't know yet. And that's one of the things, I mean,

00:56:39.060 as I said, I talked about Washington a lot in the book, and that was one of the things that he was

00:56:43.200 really good at. Although I always wonder if he would even survive in modern society because

00:56:48.160 he, uh, he would have waited for a long time. I didn't think he would have played the game

00:56:54.800 that's being played today. Right. Right. And, and someone wrote an article recently about, uh,

00:57:00.260 Trump that said, uh, because now that he doesn't have Twitter, he can't just run his mouth all day

00:57:06.600 long. And it's actually kind of better. Uh, cause I guess he made a statement about some

00:57:12.240 stuff that Biden was doing, but it was like a complete thought, you know, it was like,

00:57:16.520 right. Instead of 40 characters or whatever it was. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, uh, I think that that's

00:57:23.660 really what someone at that level should be doing at this point, instead of just like running their

00:57:29.240 mouth after each thing happens every single day, uh, you know, wait until you form a responsible

00:57:35.120 opinion about something, uh, that you can really get behind and that you're not going to have to

00:57:38.800 back away from it in 15 minutes when the evidence all changes, which it will.

00:57:43.340 Well, either they, either they'll back away from it, but more likely is they'll double down or their

00:57:47.440 craft, their narrative to fit, to fit, you know, the craft, their, their perception of it to fit the

00:57:52.500 narrative that already exists in their mind. You know, one of the things I've seen with journalism

00:57:57.280 in particular is it used to be that we would report the facts. So for example, Jack Donovan and

00:58:01.720 Ryan Mickler had a conversation on March 24th at 1 57 PM. That's the facts. Now you can interpret

00:58:08.460 that how you want, but now it's like, well, you know, Jack and Ryan talked about how they hate

00:58:14.340 religion and, you know, and, and how they hate fat people. And so it's like, they craft all these

00:58:21.800 narratives based on this little sliver of a conversation that they don't paint within the,

00:58:26.600 within the entire context of what it is that we actually talked about. It's wild, man.

00:58:32.280 Yeah, man. I mean, I'm fighting with Wikipedia and I have been, cause they started an article about me

00:58:36.560 and it's the worst. And it's basically a long Buzzfeed article about anything that I've ever

00:58:41.760 said that has offended anyone. And that's all it is. It just quotes about they quotes about people

00:58:47.960 who have been critical for me as just used to describe my entire life work. Right. And, you know,

00:58:54.940 and as, as I said, we have a problem that we don't have anybody writing on our side,

00:58:59.260 uh, you know, like about anything. I mean, I'm like, it's really skewed because, well,

00:59:04.320 I know I've sold thousands of books this month and, uh, I get letters as you do every day from men who

00:59:11.560 are like, Hey, you really changed my life. Thank you. You're doing something really positive,

00:59:15.380 all that stuff. And we both get that. And that's really the truth of what I'm doing. But the truth

00:59:24.200 in that perspective is like, you know, here's all the things that somebody who doesn't like

00:59:30.240 anything that Jack Donovan has ever written ever said.

00:59:32.360 Well, and part of the reason is because you can't grab like a quick soundbite of that,

00:59:37.060 you know, you can't, you can't extract just a quick soundbite of the nuance and the context

00:59:41.860 and everything else. And, and this goes back to what you were saying earlier, we've become so lazy.

00:59:45.620 I remember this was probably months ago. I had made a post about a book I was reading, uh,

00:59:50.260 regarding Greek mythology and somebody had quipped back. Aren't you Christian?

00:59:55.260 As if being Christian excludes me from reading about Greek mythology. It's like, I can explore

01:00:04.120 these concepts. And I think that's what you do a great job illustrating, not only in your work

01:00:07.940 generally, but in your book of like, let's look for these truths, you know, maybe they're conjured up,

01:00:13.940 maybe they're myths, maybe they never happened. Yeah. Is there still some things that we can learn

01:00:19.220 from this story that might actually impact our lives in the, in, in a positive.

01:00:23.240 And what's absurd about that is that, uh, most of that material and especially the, the Norse

01:00:28.600 material, but, uh, much of the Greeks, uh, a lot of the classics we have because, or we have

01:00:33.380 because monks sat around copying them. Like monk sat around writing all that stuff down and

01:00:40.000 translating it. And I mean, that's the only reason we have any of the Norse myths is because

01:00:44.260 Snorri Sturluson is, you know, who was a Christian wrote down a lot of this stuff. And, uh, a lot of

01:00:50.260 this material is recorded by Christian monks and obviously they thought it was a value. Oh yeah.

01:00:55.840 Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's all, it's all written out by Christians. And, uh, cause

01:00:59.720 they, I mean, there is no, uh, there is no written material in proto-Germanic, like the, the language

01:01:07.220 that they would have used at that time. Sure. Because they were, they wrote, you know, it's going to be

01:01:11.160 translated and documented, scribed. It goes away, you know, and most of the people couldn't even write.

01:01:15.680 Yeah. So it was a, it was a preliterate culture. So like, yeah, it's, they didn't have that.

01:01:20.420 It's funny. Cause I'll say something and somebody will say, well, you know, uh, you know,

01:01:24.140 Jocko said that I'm like, well, actually Aristotle said that 2000 years ago, you know, it's like,

01:01:29.120 nobody said anything new. We're just kind of regurgitating it. And then saying it in a way that

01:01:33.340 is maybe, uh, more indicative of the times or the language, uh, or the way that it can be consumed,

01:01:39.140 but it's all already there. Like, we're just saying it differently and it might,

01:01:43.220 might apply to you or it might, uh, you might resonate with it or you might not,

01:01:49.380 but we're all saying stuff that's already been said. Yeah. And somewhere or another, I mean,

01:01:53.460 unless we're responding to something that wasn't invented yet, but, uh, but in general terms, yeah.

01:02:00.120 I mean, that's, that's why I love the Greek stuff because they actually wrote everything down. So we

01:02:04.600 actually do have that. And so we, we see all of their going back and forth and thinking about stuff.

01:02:10.740 I mean, they, the way that they thought about religion and philosophy was also very varied

01:02:15.660 because we have hundreds of years of that. And so they're like, I don't know if the gods are real

01:02:20.100 or not. Uh, you know, there, there was, there was that going for hundreds of years, you know,

01:02:24.820 like, I don't know if the gods are real or not. Maybe they are that, but you know, other people

01:02:28.840 said that they absolutely were, they have different stories about how they evolved, you know, like

01:02:33.140 here's the one creation story. Here's another creation story. There's different authors have

01:02:36.700 different takes on it. To me, it's just the wrong target. You're focusing on the wrong issue. Look,

01:02:42.000 I have faith that, that what I believe is true and accurate. I wouldn't believe that if I didn't

01:02:46.700 think that was the case, but look, it's also faith, meaning I can't prove that. I don't know

01:02:51.740 that with a hundred percent certainty that said it's the wrong target. Okay. The right target is that

01:02:58.420 what I believe has served me and millions of other people. Well, and if you learn that from,

01:03:02.940 from Buddhism or Christianity or, uh, paganism or whatever, I don't care. We're all trying to

01:03:10.960 improve. We're all trying to get better. Let's serve each other. Let's help. And I don't care

01:03:14.940 which God you got it from. Let's just do it. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's, that's like I

01:03:20.640 said, that's one of the big things that I came to about this book was looking at all these patterns

01:03:25.420 and where they overlap. And, uh, here are the things that men have always talked about some basic

01:03:31.200 ideas and they've always talked about the same things and they're talking about them

01:03:35.200 with different gods, with different names at different times, but they're all doing the

01:03:39.240 same things. Like in this book I talked about, obviously, you know, there's the archetype of

01:03:43.540 the warrior, which is almost always the same. You know, it does the same story and, you know,

01:03:49.460 Joseph Campbell and people like that talked about this as well. Right. There's some very simple

01:03:54.100 features. I mean, I can nerd out and tell you why Superman is basically the striker that I talked

01:04:00.020 about in this book. Oh, he's powered by the sun. Uh, he's powered by the sun. He has lightning

01:04:04.560 that comes out of his eyes. Uh, he was adopted, you know, all the things that Heracles was,

01:04:10.460 you can find in the Superman myth that's been reinvented. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? What

01:04:15.140 is the, what is the significance of, of the whole solar concept, stay solar, the solar concept

01:04:20.600 that you've really embraced over the past several years? Well, you know, I, I, I talk about

01:04:26.720 the book about the, you know, the idea of the father and then the father in darkness. And, uh,

01:04:30.420 you know, that's the hidden part of being the father figure is that I think that you have to

01:04:36.120 obviously go into a place of confusion and indecision before you make the decision, then

01:04:40.500 tell people how it's going to be. You have to investigate. You have to go through the, oh, if I

01:04:44.820 do this, if I tell them this, they're going to do that. If I tell them this, they're going to do

01:04:48.260 that. I mean, that's what being that a leader really involves this, this, you know,

01:04:53.980 depth into, into darkness and confusion. And, uh, as, as far as the solar ideal, you know,

01:05:01.060 I've, I am a guy who goes towards forbidden things. I've always done that. That's just who I am.

01:05:05.800 Uh, you know, if something's, they tell me something's bad, I'm going to go look at it.

01:05:09.320 You're like, I want to see for myself what that's all about.

01:05:11.900 Yeah. I mean, that, that's who I am. And, you know, I've, I've, I've, that pushes, I think a lot

01:05:16.500 of men to identify as being that. And, um, I, I was associated with a lot of darkness and a lot

01:05:22.740 had, had that kind of thing around me a lot. And, but that's not really who I am. Um, I'm actually

01:05:28.260 a pretty happy guy. I'm not morose. I'm not focused on death. I'm not focused on, uh, hurting people

01:05:34.200 or, you know, insulting them and making life bad. Uh, that's not really who I am. I, I got into

01:05:40.720 writing about masculinity really, uh, because of the heroic ideal. Uh, you know, I was obviously

01:05:47.700 interested in all these bad things and whatever and villains and so forth, but the, you know,

01:05:53.320 I can't think of anything better in the world than heroic masculinity. Uh, I, I think that that,

01:05:59.220 and when I saw that that was dying in the world in some way, and we're being degraded or being,

01:06:04.240 uh, you know, uh, dismissed, um, that's kind of what got me signed on, uh, in many ways to,

01:06:11.340 Hey, this is really important and people should care about this. And so I've just been exploring

01:06:15.800 that in different ways for years. And I, it became the, the stay solar thing to me started,

01:06:22.320 uh, out at Volgang, my land and I, you know, I had, uh, there was this dark, dark culture that,

01:06:28.120 you know, was really part of contemporary kind of Odinism and, and that kind of stuff that was,

01:06:33.340 and that's, I think has to do with a lot of factors, but I'm like, there's too much darkness

01:06:38.020 around us. I'm like, we need to get more solar. And it just became that. And, uh, you know,

01:06:44.540 where are there bones everywhere? Like, like we, we need to change this. And I like to brighten

01:06:48.940 things up. I thought, my joke has been a goal. I want gold. Uh, but it started out as an aesthetic

01:06:54.780 thing. But then as I looked at it more and more and more, uh, this idea of the sun as representing

01:07:02.620 goodness and knowledge. And that's really what light does. Right. I mean, when we associate,

01:07:07.640 we always think of goodness as being light. Well, light makes the world intelligible,

01:07:11.220 makes us be able to understand things, uh, without light, we're in darkness and everything's

01:07:15.060 confused. Sure. Uh, we need the light. And it represents truth as well. Light is especially,

01:07:20.060 you know, I think about that in the Christian faith is that light is always synonymous with

01:07:23.480 truth and goodness. Yeah. Shine a light on it. You know, shine a light on it. Like,

01:07:28.260 yeah, the truth, you know? And so all this, these ideas come really from this idea of the sun. And I

01:07:35.380 talked about the, in the book, the idea of a sky father, because that's also a very old idea

01:07:40.360 and transcends religion. It's there's every religion kind of has a, a father in the sky.

01:07:46.860 And in many ways, I think that comes from, and we could, you know, talk about context or whatever,

01:07:52.760 but you know, men need to look up to something. And literally when we're boys, we looked up to our

01:07:58.080 fathers, but not really our father, but the idea of a father, because you can't be your father.

01:08:03.440 You're going to be like him, but you're not going to be him. You're going to be something else. You'll

01:08:06.280 be an idea, like a platonic form of a father. And I think that men throughout history, it's

01:08:12.740 like, well, what does the father look up to? You know, like what's the father beyond the

01:08:18.300 father, this higher ideal, like what is the most perfect idea, like of everything that

01:08:23.720 you're trying to do in your life? What is the most perfect form of that that you can imagine?

01:08:28.060 And that becomes God in many ways, like this, this is completely. Yeah. I mean, that's,

01:08:34.600 that's your ideal. And that's what you, that's your North star. Then that's the thing that you're

01:08:40.540 trying to become more like when you judge your own behavior, you're looking up towards this ideal.

01:08:46.300 That's better than you. And being like, I want to be more like that. Right. And what would that do?

01:08:51.120 I actually had these made. Cause you know, I've been talking about George Washington. I had a

01:08:54.380 little bracelets made that say, what would Washington do? Cause Oh, really? I'll have

01:08:59.100 to pick one up. Yeah. Yeah. That's just, it's just for fun. I haven't even put them up for sale

01:09:02.580 yet. I just, you know, I had a bunch of them made, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's a pretty

01:09:07.040 good idea. Like what would Washington do in this situation? It's probably a good answer.

01:09:11.280 You know? Yeah. That's a good point. You know, it's funny as you were talking about that,

01:09:15.140 I just picked up this new watch. It's a Garmin watch and it's the, uh, I think it's like the Phoenix

01:09:19.100 solar version or something. And as I picked it up, I was thinking of you, I'm like, man,

01:09:24.380 this reminds me of Jack. And it's actually got, you can't see it, but it's actually got

01:09:28.120 like a little thing of like how often I'm out in the sun and, and, and how that the sun

01:09:33.580 what's interesting about this watch is the sun actually recharges the battery in the watch

01:09:38.140 itself, which is kind of an interesting concept. Yeah. So it's kind of funny. You know, I think

01:09:43.180 about that even in my, in our faith, you know, and Tanner's very much the same way because

01:09:46.420 we, we share the same faith. And I don't know if you guys have talked about this. I know

01:09:50.000 you guys are personal friends, but, uh, in our faith, we have the, what, what we would,

01:09:55.480 what we'd say is the highest degree of glory, which is the celestial kingdom, uh, which is

01:10:00.680 signified by the sun. Like this isn't, this, this isn't any, any new thing, right? This

01:10:07.560 is as old as man himself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, no, I love talking to 10. We we've sat

01:10:12.940 here in this room actually and talked about the ritual and religion and stuff for hours. We have

01:10:17.240 a really good back and forth about that kind of stuff. Uh, because you know, at the end

01:10:20.820 of the day, we're, we're talking about a lot of the same ideas. Yes. And, uh, and that's

01:10:24.560 what I think is really interesting. And I think that's right. That's also really important.

01:10:27.740 That's one of the reasons why I wanted to go in that direction with this book is because

01:10:30.820 we're at a really rough time in history for men as far as the, and I'd much rather reach

01:10:41.600 out to all these guys. We're, we're in the same fight. Like, you know, there's a lot of

01:10:47.100 people who'd be like one, divide us in all kinds of ways that don't matter anymore.

01:10:51.540 You know, like there, there's a real problem with masculinity and freedom right now that

01:10:57.620 is like supersedes all other concerns, I think. And that's, I think really important to look

01:11:03.040 for these commonalities. Like what do we both care about that matters rather than like, you

01:11:09.240 know, what is this, you know, minutia that we can, we can, uh, debate.

01:11:13.860 Right. Let's, let's argue about Mr. Potato Head as opposed to let's argue or, or let's

01:11:19.600 get on the same page about, you know, serving our families and the people we care about and

01:11:24.220 making ourselves more capable and having some money in the bank account and creating some

01:11:28.080 experiences for ourselves, which is really what everybody wants. Not the fact that Mr.

01:11:32.720 Mrs. Potato Head is this or that, or gender neutral. Like nobody actually cares about that.

01:11:37.640 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, that especially, you know, for all these

01:11:42.360 guys who are talking about men and masculinity, we have, we, we're in it for basically the

01:11:48.320 same reasons. You know, we, we care about the same things, uh, to a greater or lesser

01:11:53.140 extent. And so like, let's find those commonalities and what's, and that's why I think the solar

01:11:57.000 message has kind of, uh, caught on with a lot of guys. There's all guys creating all kinds

01:12:03.340 of like solar accounts and all.

01:12:04.940 I know I've seen them all, but I've seen a bunch of them. Like, yeah, that's Jack's influence,

01:12:09.820 which I love to see, man.

01:12:11.180 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's great. And it's so positive. I can't be embarrassed about that.

01:12:16.200 No, I've seen the same thing with sovereignty.

01:12:18.280 More like the sun and being strong and, and, uh, you know, being emotionally controlled and all

01:12:23.300 kinds of things. Oh, like nothing, nothing to be ashamed of there. Uh, not at all about that.

01:12:28.580 Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way about sovereignty. You know, I wrote that book three years ago and I

01:12:32.080 see guys talking about sovereignty and I see their Instagram handles and their, their user ideas,

01:12:37.220 ideas is, uh, as sovereign so-and-so and so, and I'm like, that's awesome. Whether they learned

01:12:42.840 it from me or somebody else, I think. Yeah. Great. Cause it was there long before I ever

01:12:47.200 introduced it. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, it's, it's great to put that kind

01:12:51.400 of stuff out there and that's something you could really be proud of at the end of the day. You know,

01:12:54.820 you're, you know, it's undeniably positive influence. Although, I mean, I guess some else,

01:12:59.320 someone else would disagree in some way, you know, the people who were, you know, against potato head

01:13:03.660 or whatever, but, uh, it's, yeah, I mean, I think you'd really have to grasp at straws to say that

01:13:08.200 trying to, to help men improve themselves is somehow a negative thing. But you know, like you

01:13:13.720 said, people do grasp at those straws and it's not, not something worthy of consideration.

01:13:20.760 Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that, you know, at the end of the day, I think we'd both be proud of

01:13:24.440 what we're doing and putting out there. And that's, that's, uh, that's exciting. I mean,

01:13:28.960 it's good to have a legacy that you can be proud of a hundred percent. And, and something that you

01:13:34.040 can share, this goes back to the pride thing and knowing that, you know, your children will

01:13:38.720 pick up some of that, not all of it, because they're going to get their own ideas, but they'll,

01:13:43.200 they'll pick up some of that and other, it's just a good thing. Well, Jack, man, I appreciate our

01:13:48.060 conversations. I'm looking forward to getting together with you person face to face at some

01:13:51.360 point here in the near future. But guys, if you haven't picked up a copy of fire in the dark,

01:13:55.220 it's already out. Correct. This is, I know this is an advanced copy, but I think it's already out.

01:13:58.780 If I remember correctly. Yeah. It's out in paperback right now. And by probably by the

01:14:01.740 time this airs, uh, it'll be on audible. Cause I finished that and I'm just getting the submission

01:14:06.200 ready. So did you do that in your own, you know, narrative voice that you were alluding

01:14:10.180 to earlier today? It's so much work, man. It's a lot of work too. Yes, I did. So hard. And this one

01:14:16.460 had so many different languages in it. It's like, Oh, did I use Greek and old Norse and, uh,

01:14:22.360 Iranian in this paragraph? And I have to look how to pronounce them all, you know? So it's a work worth doing.

01:14:29.040 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people really like to hear authors read in their own voice. And so I think

01:14:33.860 it's worth doing. And so, uh, yeah, I, I, I definitely enjoyed it as I got closer to the end.

01:14:39.140 Yeah, no, I bet. I bet. Well, Jack, I appreciate you. I do appreciate our personal friendship. And I

01:14:44.020 also appreciate truth be told some, some of the things that you've challenged me on in, in positive

01:14:48.240 ways, of course, where you, you've pushed back on an idea or an information or something that I've

01:14:52.680 shared. And I've thought, you know, come coming from you, a man that I respect and admire,

01:14:56.500 I take that to heart and I really ponder over that. And sometimes I agree. And sometimes I don't,

01:15:02.120 but the fact that you're willing to share it and that I respect you, um, says a lot. And I just

01:15:07.420 really appreciate our friendship and our conversations over the past several years.

01:15:10.380 So thanks for joining us, brother. All right, guys, there you go. My conversation with the

01:15:14.760 one and only Jack Donovan. I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation and you're walking away with some

01:15:19.540 different perspectives of our, our relationships or our, our objectives as men. And then our

01:15:24.240 relationships with the heroic ideal and, and, and the gods themselves. I would highly, highly

01:15:30.400 encourage you to pick up a copy of his new book, fire in the dark. I think you're going to enjoy it.

01:15:36.800 It's going to give you some, some ideas that maybe you haven't considered before. And ultimately my goal

01:15:41.760 is to help give you conversations and tools and resources designed to help you fulfill your

01:15:47.120 responsibilities and your obligations and your desires as a man. So, uh, connect with Jack on,

01:15:53.500 uh, on Instagram, very active over there at start the world, connect with me at Ryan Mickler,

01:15:58.800 uh, leave the ratings and reviews. Those go a long way. Believe it or not. I think we're up to

01:16:03.380 just over 6,000 reviews. I'm trying to get up to 10,000. So I need 4,000 of you to go in and leave

01:16:09.940 a rating in review. Uh, it only take you a couple of minutes, but it goes a long way. And of course,

01:16:14.740 just check out the iron council order of man.com slash iron council. We're talking about preparedness

01:16:20.200 and brotherhood and accountability and making ourselves more capable men. You can do that

01:16:24.800 at order of man.com slash iron council. Uh, tomorrow I'll be back. We're going to be answering

01:16:29.800 your questions with Kip Sorenson and myself, uh, any questions as it relates to you trying

01:16:35.020 to improve your skillsets and capabilities as a father and a husband and a leader in your

01:16:38.980 community and within your business. So if you have those questions, you can answer those or,

01:16:44.020 or pose those questions, I should say on Instagram. And we'll be answering those tomorrow on our ask

01:16:49.540 community thing. All right, guys, until then go out there, take action, become the man you are meant

01:16:54.760 to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:16:59.700 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:17:08.980 Thank you.

Order of Man - April 13, 2021

JACK DONOVAN ｜ Men and Gods

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