Order of Man - JACK DONOVAN｜ Why Outrage Culture Undermines Masculinity

00:00:00.000 Too many men today aren't struggling because they lack information.

00:00:03.780 They're struggling because a lot of us are just drowning in noise.

00:00:08.520 And I think it's time that we start unpacking why the quote unquote modern masculinity space has just become obsessed with hot takes and call outs and online outrage.

00:00:21.380 What I would call performative accountability and why none of that builds strong men or meaningful connection or even lasting improvement.

00:00:29.280 Today, I'm joined by my friend Jack Donovan to talk about why gossip masquerades as moral authority, how calling men out often just replaces real accountability.

00:00:42.600 We also talk about the differences between integrity, honor and reputation and why social media rewards division, not necessarily leadership.

00:00:51.060 We get into the dangers of pedestalizing others and why it's important that men have a code to live by.

00:00:58.000 You're a man of action.

00:00:59.400 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly charge your own path.

00:01:04.260 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.

00:01:07.560 Every time you are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:13.760 This is your life.

00:01:14.820 This is who you are.

00:01:16.240 This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:01:18.920 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:23.880 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:25.960 I am the host and founder, Ryan Mickler.

00:01:28.180 Thanks for tuning in.

00:01:29.540 Man, I've got a great one lined up with Jack Donovan today.

00:01:32.460 A lot of you guys know who he is and he has been instrumental in my work.

00:01:35.680 One of the first guys that I've met in this space, so to speak, when I got started 10 years ago.

00:01:40.860 And he's really led the way for a lot of the masculine discussions that I've had over the past 10 years.

00:01:45.700 And I'm sure many of you are having as well.

00:01:48.420 We'll get to that in just a minute.

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00:02:30.540 Now, here's a guy that might not need any introduction, but just in case, Jack Donovan is an author.

00:02:36.060 He's a cultural critic.

00:02:38.420 He's also an artist, and he's really well known for his analysis of masculinity, tribalism, and he's best known for his books like The Way of Men, Becoming a Barbarian, Fire in the Dark.

00:02:52.660 But he takes a deep examination into what makes men strong and loyal and effective through history and anthropology and philosophy.

00:03:04.500 And for me anyways, and I know this is true for a lot of men as well, his work challenges us to think beyond our comfort or what's popular or a certain ideology and instead chooses to focus on strength, courage, mastery, and honor.

00:03:18.200 Over the past decade, Jack has become a very respected and, yeah, oftentimes controversial voice in these conversations about masculinity and culture and power.

00:03:28.820 But like I said earlier, he doesn't chase trends or online outrage, which is a focus of today's conversation.

00:03:35.160 He wants to build something real, just like we do here at Brotherhood, identity, meaning.

00:03:40.240 He's also a visual artist and photographer, and a lot of what he does in that realm mirrors his philosophy of masculinity as not just something to talk about, but something to embody and build and live.

00:03:55.120 You can find a lot of his thinking and writing on his substack under Jack Donovan.

00:03:59.540 Yeah, I saw that you were doing some videography.

00:04:04.220 I saw the primarily with the gym, with you working out, but I think you did one for the gym owners or something too.

00:04:11.040 Is that right?

00:04:12.360 Yeah, I started training at the Strongman Gym really because I just wanted to work on some PRs.

00:04:16.780 And you don't really want to bench PR by yourself, you know, especially after a certain age.

00:04:22.920 Probably a good idea.

00:04:24.060 Probably a good idea.

00:04:25.580 Yeah, yeah, it's a good thing to do.

00:04:28.420 So I started training there, and then, you know, I've been thinking about doing photography because it's kind of something that I've enjoyed over the years.

00:04:35.140 That was my thing with social media.

00:04:37.240 It's like, oh, I get to take cool pictures.

00:04:39.200 And I've been doing that for a while, and they wanted to see if anyone could make some reels to promote the gym.

00:04:46.960 And I said, yeah, I can do that, actually.

00:04:50.560 So they paid me to do some of that, and then I came and filmed like a whole Strongman meet, which was super fun.

00:04:56.760 I had so much fun.

00:04:57.540 So it's so much fun going to a job after you've been self-employed for so long.

00:05:01.160 I'm like, I have something to do all day, and it's not just me trying to figure things out.

00:05:06.840 It was really fun.

00:05:08.220 And so I'm looking to do – I have a guy who runs like a gun TV YouTube.

00:05:14.640 I think I'm going to do some stuff for him.

00:05:16.160 And, yeah, I just – it's fun to do it with other people because it's actually really hard to take pictures of yourself.

00:05:20.620 It takes a really long time.

00:05:22.780 I mean, you're talented.

00:05:23.860 You are a creative.

00:05:24.980 I've seen your videos.

00:05:27.120 I've seen your photography for years now.

00:05:28.900 I've seen your graphic design.

00:05:32.440 I think you're a lot more talented in that realm than people might give you credit for.

00:05:38.840 Yeah.

00:05:39.260 I mean, I hope so.

00:05:39.860 I mean, that's originally what I went to school for.

00:05:41.460 I mean, I went to art school.

00:05:42.640 And so –

00:05:42.940 Oh, is that right?

00:05:43.460 I didn't know that.

00:05:44.440 Oh, yeah.

00:05:44.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:05:45.600 And so that's really what I think of myself as an artist first, and then I got into writing somehow.

00:05:51.940 And then – but I would like to do more visual stuff.

00:05:56.280 And I think that we're in an age for that right now.

00:05:59.060 I think there was so much talking for a while.

00:06:02.240 And I think people want a little bit more vibes.

00:06:07.060 You know, and there's been a discussion for a long time.

00:06:09.780 And, you know, we actually talked about that, that one event that we both did.

00:06:12.920 I talked about it in my talk there.

00:06:15.140 Everybody says that, you know, like the right or whoever – I don't like going at the right, but it is what it is.

00:06:19.840 The right doesn't make art and they don't make culture.

00:06:23.640 Tanner was talking a lot about this as well.

00:06:26.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:06:26.800 And, well, I can do that.

00:06:29.660 So, like, maybe that's what I need to be doing with my life, you know, more than being a talking guy.

00:06:35.580 Because I never really – I don't really like arguing with people.

00:06:37.840 That's not my – there are some people who like it.

00:06:39.740 I have a friend who, like, met his wife in debate club, and he's the guy.

00:06:45.280 He wants to do that.

00:06:46.560 But I really don't like arguing with people for a living.

00:06:49.480 And that's kind of what a lot of online – being an online personality has become, I think.

00:06:55.380 And probably that segs into what we were going to talk about.

00:06:57.900 But so much of it is just picking fights with people online.

00:07:03.140 So, you know, that's – I don't want to do that.

00:07:06.420 It is so true. 0.88

00:07:08.060 I was watching a video clip from Chris Williamson from the Modern Wisdom podcast.

00:07:14.460 Yeah.

00:07:14.600 And the clip was him talking about why he doesn't get into debates or why he doesn't do takes.

00:07:24.680 So, he said that.

00:07:26.600 He's like, I will not watch a video or an idea or an ideology and give you a take on it.

00:07:32.840 Right.

00:07:33.040 But that's what you see on social media.

00:07:34.380 A lot of these guys are doing takes.

00:07:35.840 And I think what Chris said is he said that he doesn't do it because once you go down that path, there's no turning back.

00:07:43.440 And don't you want to have new, fresh, original ideas or at least original thoughts about a concept and an idea?

00:07:49.920 And why does it need to be based on what somebody else thinks instead of just your own thought process around a thing?

00:07:55.900 Well, you know, we both have done a good bit of jiu-jitsu and personal attacks are like leg locks.

00:08:02.920 Like once you open that up and get into that 50-50, it's one of you is going to get leg locked.

00:08:09.300 It's a bad scene.

00:08:10.860 You know, if you just go there, it's going to happen.

00:08:13.240 So, I mean, you're opening yourself up for that.

00:08:15.640 If you become the guy who attacks people, then you're also asking to be attacked as well.

00:08:20.240 And that's, you know, if you want to do that, there are some guys who just like they look at the comments and there's all these people calling them names and they just laugh and they think it's great and it's fantastic.

00:08:30.920 But I don't know.

00:08:32.380 I don't want that life. 0.88

00:08:34.340 And, yeah, you start giving those takes and you're like, this guy sucks and this guy's wrong and he does a bad thing.

00:08:40.580 You know, yeah, it's better to talk about big ideas, I think.

00:08:44.100 Well, and you're tearing down instead of building up, you know.

00:08:47.000 And I think that's the biggest issue is when you start to get into takes, nobody does a take on somebody that they agree with.

00:08:56.260 Like, I'm not going to do it.

00:08:57.720 If you said something I resonate with, I'm not going to post a video and be like, hey, Jack said this thing and I really agree with him.

00:09:03.620 Right, right.

00:09:04.340 No one cares.

00:09:05.080 You're only doing takes on things that you're not, you don't believe in, which, I mean, makes sense.

00:09:10.460 But what I have noticed, though, is a lot of these guys, and we've seen this because you've been in this business movement.

00:09:19.560 I don't know.

00:09:20.120 Like, I don't like Manosphere, but everybody understands the term.

00:09:24.020 You've been in this space longer than I have.

00:09:25.780 And what's interesting is after me doing this for a decade, so 10 and a half years now, almost 11, geez, I see a lot of people do these takes.

00:09:38.320 I see a lot of people drum up a lot of angst and frustration and contention and the tribe mentality.

00:09:45.400 And you're going to drum up a lot of engagement.

00:09:52.700 But these guys who drum up engagement, it's interesting because they'll reach out to me and say, how do I actually create a movement?

00:09:59.620 And that's the problem.

00:10:01.920 See, engagement, and what people don't know, is engagement doesn't automatically translate to movement, which doesn't translate into having a vocation.

00:10:13.880 A lot of these guys are just doing this, scrambling to try to get as many people riled up as possible, and then they're going to bag groceries at their local grocery store for a living.

00:10:23.620 But they're not creating a movement that actually moves men or whoever their audience is in a positive, constructive direction.

00:10:31.820 Well, yeah, if you're not saying anything and you're just giving hot takes to give hot takes, then what do you even believe?

00:10:39.340 You know, like, the things that I've written about over the years, it's like I have a pretty – I've changed my mind about some things and whatever, but I have a pretty clear arc.

00:10:51.380 And there's still things that I still agree with, and they're fairly consistent. 0.66

00:10:54.860 And, you know, but if you're just saying, this guy sucks and that guy sucks and that guy – and just this issue, this hot issue that everybody's talking about, I have to have a take on it.

00:11:04.880 I mean, X is actually the worst platform, I think, for that. 0.97

00:11:07.680 Like, that's all it is is hot takes.

00:11:09.440 You know, I mean, if you go – if you spend a couple hours on X, you will be absolutely convinced that our world is actually falling apart.

00:11:19.380 You know, there's so much dissent and so much arguing and so many, like, people – and there was this guy, Razib Khan, who writes about genetics.

00:11:28.980 I've been following him for a long time, and he made a post one day. 0.85

00:11:31.960 He's like, you know, all of these tweets or posts that you guys post, X, they sound really clever, but if you built them out into an essay, you'd realize you're retarded. 0.98

00:11:41.780 And that's often the case.

00:11:44.180 You know, like, oh, I can say something that sounds really cool and makes me sound, like, really clever in, like, you know, a few lines.

00:11:50.380 But, man, if you built that out into a full thought – and that's why I like writing.

00:11:55.840 It's in the way that, you know, when you're in school and you do math and they make you show your work.

00:12:00.960 Writing is very much that way.

00:12:02.420 Like, if I said something in paragraph one that doesn't make sense with paragraph two, I need to reconcile that.

00:12:08.840 But, like, when you're just running your mouth, you can get away with that.

00:12:12.240 You don't need to do that with your mouth.

00:12:13.680 Yeah, yeah.

00:12:14.140 And people always remember the last thing you say.

00:12:15.920 So if you say something really positive or really negative or whatever, they'll remember the last thing, and maybe all the other stuff didn't have to make sense.

00:12:21.900 You know, they'll just remember the – they always say people remember how you make them feel.

00:12:26.180 You know, but with writing, it's a little bit –

00:12:27.700 You know, I was having a –

00:12:28.520 Math, yeah.

00:12:29.900 It is.

00:12:30.460 It's more linear.

00:12:31.480 You have to actually delve into it.

00:12:32.680 I was talking with somebody just the other day, and they had said something that contradicted what they had said just a few weeks earlier.

00:12:39.820 And I said, well, hold on.

00:12:41.900 Wait, you said this right now, but just a few weeks earlier, you said something.

00:12:45.920 Something else, and it contradicts.

00:12:48.800 Help me understand that.

00:12:49.740 And in a one-to-one conversation, if we're both respectful, we can have that dialogue.

00:12:53.860 And I think people can hold conflicting thoughts.

00:12:59.140 I can hold two thoughts that conflict with each other, and having somebody to work through it is meaningful.

00:13:04.880 But I definitely agree with the writing process because I remember when I wrote my first book in, I think it was 2018, 17, 18, I would write a paragraph or write a chapter or even just a statement.

00:13:21.600 And I'd ask myself, wait a second, do I – do I really believe that?

00:13:27.040 Is that – and also, people are going to fact-check me, so I need to support this with anecdotes and actual data.

00:13:35.080 So I'd go do research.

00:13:36.340 I'm like, wait, I've been saying this for three years.

00:13:39.320 I don't think I actually believe that. 0.97

00:13:42.400 And it really helps you flesh out ideas in a way that just spewing nonsense out of your mouth doesn't.

00:13:49.200 Oh, yeah, I've written myself out of opinions before for sure.

00:13:54.060 Like I sat down to write this angry essay about people making AI art just using AI graphics because I just got so tired of seeing AI slop.

00:14:04.700 Like on Instagram and stuff, you see all these things like you took 10 seconds to make that, and that bodybuilder's arm is like this. 0.97

00:14:10.820 You know, it's – you're making garbage. 0.98

00:14:14.380 And I wrote myself into the opinion that I'm actually just a snob. 0.97

00:14:17.900 Like I'm like – I have a very developed aesthetic sense, and people who don't are making garbage stuff because they don't have a good aesthetic sense. 0.92

00:14:27.080 And I'm like, well, now that essay is kind of dumb for me.

00:14:29.760 I can't really post it because that's what it – I'm like, oh, I'm just – I'm being snobbish about it really.

00:14:36.260 And you can though, right?

00:14:37.420 Like you can be a bit of a snob for the things that are meaningful to you.

00:14:41.120 But acknowledging it I think is powerful.

00:14:43.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:44.020 It's like my opinion was different than when it was when it started.

00:14:46.680 And I'm like, oh, okay, well, this is why I don't like that.

00:14:48.880 All right, fine.

00:14:50.500 I mean I wish more of us, including myself, would do that and just take a step back and say, all right, hold on.

00:14:56.820 Like here's a great example.

00:14:58.040 You're driving down the road. 0.99

00:14:59.420 Some guy on the road cuts you off, and immediately he's a dickhead. 1.00

00:15:03.060 He's an asshole. 1.00

00:15:04.420 He's inconsiderate. 1.00

00:15:05.580 He's a fat piece of shit. 1.00

00:15:08.260 You didn't even see him. 1.00

00:15:09.160 Like you just make up all sorts of bad stories about him.

00:15:11.680 But what you don't realize is that guy just got a call from his wife, and she's in the hospital giving birth to their first child.

00:15:19.260 Right, right.

00:15:20.720 Which could be just as accurate as anything that we would make up.

00:15:24.880 We don't know.

00:15:25.500 You might as well make up a story that serves you and leans into humanity of people and gives them the benefit of the doubt and just keeps you in a better spirit, frankly.

00:15:35.420 Oh, yeah, totally.

00:15:36.620 I mean like especially if you're in your own neighborhood and you know where you're going and everybody's in your way.

00:15:41.880 But like when I'm looking at Google Maps trying to figure out what it wants me to do and I'm like traveling somewhere, yeah, I'm that guy.

00:15:49.540 Right, right.

00:15:50.440 Which way am I supposed to be in?

00:15:51.420 I don't know.

00:15:52.900 But like so I think we're all that guy at some point.

00:15:56.420 Like everyone knows which way you're supposed to go.

00:15:59.220 But if you're traveling somewhere else, you don't know.

00:16:01.580 And so like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0.86

00:16:03.720 Obviously not everyone else who's driving is retarded. 0.96

00:16:06.620 I always laugh about that too because if you've lived in several states, people in every single state seems to think, you know, people in my state don't know how to drive.

00:16:16.220 It's the same with weather.

00:16:17.400 Oh, the weather here is way worse than it.

00:16:19.340 I'm like for every person in every state who's told me if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes.

00:16:24.800 Literally everybody says that about their state.

00:16:26.920 Same with drivers.

00:16:28.180 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:29.080 It's a universal thing.

00:16:30.380 Yeah, I, I, uh, art, art is interesting when you talk about AI because I remember taking an art class, uh, years ago is my first semester of college and I hated it.

00:16:42.560 And I love art.

00:16:43.740 I I'm actually, uh, like if I travel to a different city, I like going to art museums and looking at different art.

00:16:50.000 And, um, I like, I like realism.

00:16:52.660 I don't get much into abstract art, but then you see guys like, um, Andy Warhol and what's the other guy, Jackson Pollock, I think is the name is with the splatter art.

00:17:01.880 And, and then I think, you know, like, is that actually art?

00:17:06.200 Like, is, is it what, what is art?

00:17:08.520 And it is interesting because you do hear that the right can't create art the way that the left does.

00:17:13.840 If we're just going to box it into that, cause you have, you know, most, most actors, I would say fall into, into the camp of the left.

00:17:22.580 Um, you know, most musicians, I would say generally fall into the camp of, of the left.

00:17:27.580 It seems to be more, more artistic in that way.

00:17:31.320 But then you look at Catholic cathedrals and you look at incredible statues made of marble or cast in bronze.

00:17:39.760 And you're like, dude, we, we can create too.

00:17:42.380 We just need to do a better job of creating.

00:17:45.840 Yeah.

00:17:46.300 And this is something that I've said for a while, you know, uh, a lot of it's money too.

00:17:53.260 Uh, and you know, the right has just as much money as the left, but it's how you spend it.

00:17:57.740 Uh, and so, you know, how, how do Hollywood movies get made?

00:18:01.340 Well, some, some guys with a lot of money sit down and say, you know, I, that seems like a good idea.

00:18:05.260 Let's do that.

00:18:05.980 Let's roll the dice on that.

00:18:07.140 You know, like the, they're the, they're the guys who give the director money, you know, there's people producing it and so forth.

00:18:12.920 And the same thing with like, how do statues get made?

00:18:15.860 Well, someone funds that.

00:18:17.300 How did you look at some way like, uh, you know, like talking about art museums, like, uh, I always bring up Andrew Carnegie, uh, you know, like we know his name.

00:18:25.560 Why? Cause he's not, because he's just a rich guy, but because, you know, he built all this stuff about Philadelphia.

00:18:30.980 Andy Warhol's stuff is in his Carnegie art museum and, and you build colleges and so forth.

00:18:35.920 And they commissioned those things to why? Because they wanted to be great.

00:18:40.220 That's why I kind of like, uh, we have a lot of rich people who don't want to leave a legacy.

00:18:44.760 It seems like in the same way that, uh, you know, like, uh, that's what I like about Trump.

00:18:49.440 It's like, he's the kind of, he's an old style rich person that like, I want to build things and, and put my names on things and whatever.

00:18:56.380 Yeah. I'm two hours from Vegas and you see Trump tower and it's this gold gaudy building and it says Trump.

00:19:04.400 That's all it says. I'm like, yeah, as it should be. He built that.

00:19:08.640 Yeah. Well, and like, you know, I was just in Florence and, uh, the, all the Michelangelo stuff and all the, all the beautiful art, the Catholic art that you were talking about.

00:19:17.680 I mean, that was funded by the Medici family. They're a banking family, you know, like they, they, they said we want to make this whole town beautiful and they did.

00:19:25.500 And that's, that's how this happens, you know? So after the guys who's got the third, uh, Lamborghini that he's flexing on, um, maybe you should make something beautiful.

00:19:35.520 Uh, you know, because there, there are people who not, I, and that's not like a plea for me. I don't have anything I'm even planning to make, but, uh, there are a couple sculptors that I think are really good.

00:19:43.740 There's one, there's this one guy called Fendivier and he kind of, he, he, uh, uh, uh, I think he's from Scotland and he, he makes really good modern art and he's kind of on the right.

00:19:53.120 And, uh, but it's, it's very art deco kind of inspired, like these pictures of people wrestling and this good stuff, you know, uh, you know, you can connect with it.

00:20:03.900 And I just think we need more of that. And, and the thing is people who aren't as satisfied with the far, far left, because there's a lot of people who have defected recently.

00:20:12.980 Uh, you know, they're waiting for the money, you know, it's like, if you're, if your whole livelihood as an artist depends on left-wing money, you got to kind of moderate in that general direction, uh, or just shut your mouth, uh, you know, about certain things.

00:20:27.360 But, uh, you know, if they can make a living, uh, by working with other people, then, then that's, you know, they're more free to do the things that they want to do, you know?

00:20:37.480 So we get, you know, I think we need people to fund that stuff.

00:20:40.220 I wholeheartedly agree. And we need to, yeah, we need to fund it, right? Not people need to, we need to fund it because life, whatever you want is on the other side of a story that you craft and tell.

00:20:52.720 Right. So for example, the clothes that you wear, the clothes that I'm wearing right now, the backdrop of your studio, the backdrop of my studio, this is a story.

00:21:00.820 These aren't words behind me. This is a story that I'm telling through visual representation.

00:21:06.800 And I wish more men understood that, you know, when you go on a date, you're creating a narrative and a story about who you are and why this woman should be interested in you.

00:21:14.580 Right.

00:21:15.220 Um, if, if you're going in for a job interview, you're going to dress a certain way. You're going to carry yourself a certain way. You're going to present and communicate a certain way to craft a narrative as to why that guy should hire you.

00:21:25.840 Oh, and, and I, I really do wish that we were better as just men in general. We were better storytellers. Cause we think it's, we say it's not important. Oh, don't, don't judge a book by its cover.

00:21:37.420 Clever, but not accurate. Nobody does that. We all judge a book by its cover and the story that it tells us.

00:21:43.520 Yeah. I mean, George Washington was fantastic about that. Like when you read his biography, he was like, he was like, this is the way I need to ride on a white horse. And this is where I need to look. This is the way the president.

00:21:52.840 Yeah. Because all of that was important. All of that display, uh, was very important for people. And obviously the ancient Romans were very good about that. You know, men have, you know, always, that's how you command power.

00:22:04.180 Oh, I, I feel, I feel like there's, that's the title of a book that a friend of ours wrote. Uh, you know, the appearance of power, Tanner Guzzi. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I mean, there, there's, I think you have to care about that.

00:22:17.420 And there's this idea that I think that, and it has to do with people's feelings about vanity and so forth. I think in America, we have a kind of strain of Puritanism in America. Uh, I think that affected that maybe more than in Europe, but, uh, yeah, I think telling that story is really important. We need to be invested in, in, in telling the story that like you're talking about.

00:22:36.780 I mean, now that I'm doing more filming of things, you know, then I have the actual, you know, the additional thing of movement, uh, to think about. I'm like, Oh, I'm filming like, and I'm like, well, what does my character do? Like, what is he doing? Like, what is he wearing? Like what, what, what makes sense? You know, like even when I'm making little videos for Instagram, cause you know, I'm really just making those to show clients what I could theoretically do, but it's also super fun for me.

00:23:00.780 So, but I'm like, I'm like, ah, this doesn't really fit with my whole vibe. I need to like figure something out, you know, like that makes it more cohesive. Cause that's really what a lot of, what makes something good aesthetically is it's almost, it's integrity. Like are all the pieces of this saying the same thing? You know, like, is that message, like you said, it's a story. Is it all telling the same story? Are you telling, is it a mess? Yeah. You know, I think it doesn't matter what

00:23:30.740 the story is, but something becomes aesthetically really impressive if it's telling a cohesive story.

00:23:37.060 Yeah. And that's the note I just took right here. So when you say integrity, you're not talking about

00:23:40.660 moral integrity. You're talking about congruency or consistency in a message you're delivering.

00:23:45.720 Yeah. I mean, it's all kinds of the same, you know, like, I mean, what moral integrity is, is really

00:23:50.120 just, uh, uh, the, all the, that the, your actions and words line up your, your, the things that you believe, the things that you do, you know?

00:23:58.880 Well, I hear that, but then most of us wouldn't say, and I don't think this is actually the definition of the word.

00:24:04.420 I agree more with what you're saying, but I think most of us would say that a Muslim jihadist is, is not

00:24:10.340 an, an, a person in integrity, but I would, I would actually argue the opposite. I would say that that

00:24:16.120 individual who's willing to go die for his belief is actually very much an integrity.

00:24:21.500 Yeah. He's doing what he says he believes. It doesn't have to be what you believe, but he's doing what he says.

00:24:25.540 And so that's, that's consistent. And, you know, I, I, uh, when I had a, an event with one of my guys,

00:24:32.060 with some of my guys recently, uh, one of the things I talk about, we, you never hear the word

00:24:37.240 disintegration. Uh, you know, that you never hear them used together as opposites, but integration

00:24:44.100 and disintegration are like, you know, opposite things. And it becomes very, it's an interesting

00:24:48.620 concept to think about that. Like if you're integrated, everything is part of a whole. Uh,

00:24:54.000 everything is part of a whole that makes sense. And if you're disintegrating, you see these like

00:24:58.300 things like Thanos things in a movie where people were just floating away and it's like, they, they,

00:25:02.980 all the different pieces are dispersing and they just don't make any sense. You know?

00:25:07.480 So I never thought about the words, that compound word as two separate words, but that makes sense.

00:25:12.900 Yeah. It hit me on a road trip. I was like, wait, those are the same. That's an integer. Oh yeah. I mean,

00:25:18.100 integral, integral that root means whole. And, and so like wholesome actually kind of means the same

00:25:23.480 thing too. We think of it being a different thing, but wholesome basically means the same thing as

00:25:27.520 integrity. Well, as you're saying this, I'm thinking about this dis man disintegrated. It's 1.00

00:25:36.260 even hard to say dis integrate integration. It's even hard to say that word. Cause you don't think

00:25:40.100 about it like that, but, um, I think about that as society, like we're so, we're, we're, we're so

00:25:47.240 confused. We're so, everybody's pulling in opposite directions. Everybody leaves somebody, something

00:25:51.660 different and there's no integration. There's no. And so we're disintegrating right before our very

00:25:56.560 eyes. And we see this collapse. I think we're in the real world collapse of the United States,

00:26:01.360 quite frankly, it's disintegrating before our eyes. Well, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things like

00:26:06.840 that. Well, that's, you have things pulling in different directions and that's the disintegration

00:26:11.640 part, you know, like all these things pulling in different directions. I mean, I I'm a little more

00:26:15.540 hopeful about where we're at right now, way more hopeful than I was two years ago, but, uh, uh,

00:26:20.620 there, yeah, I mean, that's what social media does to us too. You know, like that's, it disintegrates

00:26:26.220 our mind. If you think about it, it's like, Oh, it's, you're constantly in a state of distraction

00:26:30.040 and it pulls you in all these different directions, you know, and, and kind of, that's why people

00:26:35.400 meditate. That's why people go to church. That's people that like, they, they do this thing that

00:26:39.560 brings them back to the things that they care about and the things that they believe it pulls

00:26:43.780 them back to like this center rather than having them all over the place. You know?

00:26:48.780 Yeah. I've thought about that specifically with, with faith, which I've always had faith. I've never

00:26:54.440 been somebody who's overly religious or even all that faithful, quite frankly. Uh, but even just over

00:27:00.840 the past several weeks, I've started to read the Bible. I've started to pray every day for the past

00:27:06.380 two and a half, three weeks now. And as I was thinking about how it makes me feel, I was thinking

00:27:13.240 of it on a, on a, a more secular level. I think outside of this spiritual faith-based component, even

00:27:21.800 from a secular perspective, that wholesomeness, that code of conduct, because most people don't have a

00:27:28.200 code of conduct. So if you use Catholicism, for example, or you're a Baptist or, or whatever,

00:27:35.040 pick your, your, your religion of choice at a minimum, I think it gives you a code of conduct.

00:27:42.200 And that's what I think a lot of men are missing is how do I operate? What is, what is my standard

00:27:48.800 operating procedure? You know, when you, when you buy a new computer, it comes with a manual and it says,

00:27:53.840 these are, this is how this computer works and here's how you operate it. But men don't have 1.00

00:27:58.940 that. And we haven't spent much time thinking about that. I think, I think in the past we've

00:28:03.860 adopted that from our ancestors, right? We worked in the field with our dad and he taught us lessons

00:28:08.800 while we were tilling the, the, the fields, or we were in the factories and this is how it needed to

00:28:13.680 be made. Or we went on a hunt with our fathers and grandfathers, or we went through a rite of passage

00:28:19.060 and that knowledge was passed down from elders to the youth. But those, to use the word are

00:28:25.140 disintegrating. Those institutions are disintegrating. And now men are left wandering around aimlessly

00:28:29.780 without a code of conduct. Right. And I would say like, uh, I mean, you can figure one out. I mean,

00:28:35.280 that's what, you know, the ancient creatures were doing, uh, like, well, let's figure that's what

00:28:39.300 philosophy is. Like, let's figure out what our code of conduct even is. Uh, but, uh, I always say like the,

00:28:45.440 you know, philosophy is at least being a philosopher is at least a part-time job and it doesn't pay very

00:28:49.500 well. It's a lot of work, you know, it's a lot of work to figure all those things out. So yeah,

00:28:54.920 people do, I mean, and that's why people listen to you. That's why people read my books. That's why

00:29:00.180 whatever, because they're like, they're looking for, okay, what do I agree with? What do I disagree

00:29:04.240 with? What do I believe? What do I not believe? Uh, the tricky thing is, is when you have so many

00:29:08.980 different voices coming at them in forever, every way, and you never take time to solidify what that code of

00:29:14.320 conduct is, you know, what, what, what things are non-negotiable for me, you know, like what things

00:29:21.200 are, are the core things that I won't let go of and what things do I not care about? You know, cause

00:29:25.940 that, that's the thing, different things are important to everybody. So, you know, you can have some

00:29:30.400 things like, I definitely won't do this. Um, that's my line, but a lot of people don't have even taken

00:29:36.240 time to figure out the line. If you haven't figured out the line, then when someone asks you, then I guess

00:29:39.860 you're like, okay, you know, like you don't have any things you have. That's the default.

00:29:45.040 Yeah. Yeah. People just say, all right. You know, like, uh, but I mean, that's why, and we've both

00:29:49.660 talked about this a lot. It's important to have groups of men that, you know, you hold you accountable

00:29:55.720 to the same things that you said you were going to do, or just that you want to impress, uh, you know,

00:30:01.280 like that you want, okay, I want these guys to think well of me. So I said that I was going to do

00:30:06.980 this. So I don't want to do the opposite of that. You know, that's so much of what honor is. I've,

00:30:12.880 I've written, talked a lot about honor over the years and, and honor is really your reputation for

00:30:18.700 virtue. You know, it's with other people or yourself, or how would you define that?

00:30:24.440 Well, you can break it up into a lot of different ways and they have, but I think, uh, honor is

00:30:30.060 fundamentally reputation. Uh, I think when it becomes something else, then it, because I read a thing by

00:30:35.980 Brett McKay years ago where he kind of said, Oh, it's integrity. Well, that's integrity or we

00:30:40.540 already have a word for that, but the ancient understanding of honor is your reputation

00:30:44.580 and that your tends to be reputation. It's with your honor group. And so, cause I think that makes

00:30:50.860 sense because that's subjective, right? Because if we go back to the Muslim jihadist, we would say

00:30:55.940 he's an integrity, but we wouldn't say he's honorable. Well, they, but he, they, they would

00:31:01.620 absolutely say he's honorable for his community would his community. And that's what, and that's

00:31:06.980 what thing it's like, that's, you know, like talking about being, you know, people on the

00:31:11.340 internet. Uh, you know, I, I can't, I can't take everyone else's opinion seriously. You know,

00:31:16.860 I can't take input from everyone and have them all evaluate my deeds. But like, there are certain

00:31:21.800 people that like, okay, I respect that guy's opinion. So he's kind of in my honor group.

00:31:25.760 Like, I don't want to disappoint this person. You know, I, I, if I'm doing well, if I'm

00:31:31.340 impressing this guy, uh, with the things that like, because he's someone I agree with and

00:31:35.480 we share the same values. And so you have to, your honor group has to be, I mean, obviously

00:31:40.460 traditionally your honor group is the group that you're brought up into and this is their

00:31:45.380 community. And they, they might have terrible values by our standards, but their value, that

00:31:50.360 is their honor within their group. You know, if you're brought up in ancient Rome, uh, you

00:31:54.400 know, that is your honor. And that's, you know, that's annos that's, it comes from ancient

00:31:58.220 Rome and that's your, their values are your values and your reputation for within that

00:32:04.740 community is your honor. And, uh, and then if you break that, you know, but they obviously

00:32:10.200 they, their, their version of honor would be, uh, very different from ours. I mean, their

00:32:15.240 fathers, we like the word patriarchy, but their fathers were actually allowed to kill their 0.93

00:32:19.580 children if they didn't like them. You know, like that, like, I mean, they're like, you

00:32:24.340 were literally in charge of, we don't want to kill our children at certain points in

00:32:27.560 life. Exactly. Exactly. But they're like, you know what? You're a bad seed out, you

00:32:32.260 know, like, yeah, but they had absolute authority and the patriarchy had absolute

00:32:36.880 authority. And, and, uh, we would probably tone that down a little bit in modern

00:32:41.400 society, you know, but, uh, I even think about like when I, when I was grew up and, and I was

00:32:46.560 playing sports in high school, I grew up in a small Southern Utah town, Parolin, Utah.

00:32:50.460 Uh, I think there was 2,200 people in the entire town, 42 kids in my graduating class.

00:32:56.540 And there was a, there's a town that's about 30, 40 miles North of Parolin called

00:33:00.820 Beaver. And we hated Beaver. That was our rivalry. So we hated and, and all the guys

00:33:05.900 there, we hated all the guys there. They were assholes. They, they were jerks, like 1.00

00:33:09.500 whatever we had to say to villainize them. And then I got into college and there was a 1.00

00:33:13.500 couple of guys from Beaver who graduated the same year I did. We got to college and we

00:33:16.380 were best friends in college, but a year earlier I hated them. Yeah. And so it is

00:33:22.740 interesting. I think it's important that we choose our group wisely that aligns

00:33:27.340 with our value and then question whether or not this is a group we want to continue

00:33:30.880 to belong to based on what that group is producing.

00:33:34.420 Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. You, uh, I mean, that's, that's, that's male

00:33:38.940 tribalism as at its finest. I mean, that's what we do. That's part of that whole

00:33:43.720 process is cause you're technically at war with that other team. That's, that's

00:33:48.360 the idea. And you're in the process of dehumanizing them so you can kill them. 1.00

00:33:52.580 I mean, that's basically what it justify what you're doing. And that's one of the 0.99

00:33:56.300 reasons why I like, you know, that, that saying, uh, you know, different between

00:34:01.260 being a good man and being good at being a man is I had to separate those two

00:34:04.180 because what you'll do is that man is not even a man because he's like the people

00:34:12.860 on those teams. Oh, they're, they're liars. They cheat. They, they, they're not even 1.00

00:34:17.200 men. Like they're, they're not even men. And so we, we unman people that we don't

00:34:21.900 like. That's part of our whole process. And you know, if, if you know what people

00:34:26.000 are doing as an adult and you've, you know, like you're like, well, okay, they're

00:34:29.700 doing the thing. That's, that's what you're doing. But, uh, you know, I mean,

00:34:35.040 if we, we see it happening with wars and stuff right now, I mean, I think every,

00:34:39.860 every side always claims that the other side is killing babies. That's, that's

00:34:43.580 kind of, that's, that's a convention. I guess that's a universal thing you don't

00:34:47.060 do. Right. Right. Right. So everyone will always claim that the other side is

00:34:50.500 killing more babies or whatever. Uh, it's just one of those things. And like, see,

00:34:53.840 they're barely even human. What are they doing? Uh, you know, it's, it's one of those

00:34:58.260 things that is just part of tribalism and yeah, it's the, it's part of the

00:35:01.840 process for making it, for being okay with killing that person. Uh, you know,

00:35:06.180 that is interesting about the killing babies because there's all, so it's 0.91

00:35:09.720 killing babies and killing old people. Right. So the right says the left is 0.98

00:35:13.920 killing babies through abortion. And the left says the right is killing old 0.98

00:35:17.660 people through their, you know, lack of, of empathy towards Medicare and

00:35:22.340 Medicaid and social services and social security. So we're killing grandma and

00:35:26.080 grandpa. So like we're doing the same thing. It's infants and grandmas and 0.99

00:35:30.360 grandpas. Well, and you're, you're killing the trends because you're making

00:35:34.080 them kill themselves and you're killing all the outsiders who make your, all the 1.00

00:35:38.480 cute people that you're making feel bad by having standards. Uh, you're, you're 0.99

00:35:42.140 killing all those people like hurt because you're hurting their feelings, all 0.92

00:35:45.200 the microaggressions. Yeah. Yeah. It's all, it's all part of the same process. 0.99

00:35:48.960 The other, just accusing you of different, you know, different, different, uh,

00:35:52.320 atrocities. Yeah. Interesting. Well, I, like you said, I think you have to do

00:35:57.200 that in order to justify your own actions or behaviors or even thought

00:36:00.900 process towards an individual. I can't imagine that even in my own life, the

00:36:06.000 way that I've thought negatively about certain people at certain aspects of my

00:36:09.080 life, I, if, if I couldn't justify me feeling that way, I would just be a

00:36:13.160 horrible, horrible person. And I am at times, just like all of us are.

00:36:16.520 Man, I'm going to step away from my conversation very briefly. Uh, most men, 1.00

00:36:22.840 as I said earlier, we don't need more information. Sometimes what you need is

00:36:26.120 to get away. You need to get away. You need to have honest conversations like

00:36:30.020 we're having here. Uh, and you need brotherhood that sharpens you. And that's

00:36:34.520 why we are releasing the men's forge that is coming this spring. So April 23rd

00:36:39.740 through the 26th, 2026, it's designed to pull men out of isolation and away from

00:36:46.400 distraction, like the things that we're talking about on this podcast and away

00:36:50.320 from the surface level, self-improvement stuff and put you into an environment

00:36:54.000 where you have actual accountability, like we talk about here in purpose. And

00:36:58.160 it's, this is not just a conference that you see where you just sit back and you

00:37:01.140 take notes. It's an immersive experience. Uh, we're going to be confronting why

00:37:06.000 you may have been coasting in life, why you're carrying unnecessary weight, where

00:37:11.220 you need to step up and want to step up as a husband, father, leader, and man in

00:37:15.520 general. And because Larry from the dad edge and I are doing this together, it's

00:37:19.560 like two events in one and all of your food, lodging speakers, events, and the

00:37:25.640 total experience is covered when you get there. And unlike other conferences, you

00:37:30.520 actually will stay on the property with us going through obstacle courses, pistol

00:37:35.300 range instruction, jujitsu classes, team challenges, physical training, and a ton

00:37:41.060 more, including our speakers. And I just got word that Dwayne Noel, a lot of you

00:37:44.920 guys know who he is a former guest of mine as well. Uh, but Dwayne is going to be

00:37:48.820 headlining the experience with us among a half a dozen other powerful speakers. So

00:37:53.380 again, that's April 23rd through the 26th, get your ticket as soon as you can. That

00:37:58.180 also might be a good Christmas gift. If your wife or, or the woman in your life, or

00:38:02.780 maybe even a brother or somebody in your life is wanting to get you something

00:38:06.420 that's going to be the gift that keeps on giving. If you will go to themensforge.com

00:38:12.160 that's www.themensforge.com. All right, let me get back to the Jack.

00:38:20.200 Yeah, I do want to shift gears because you had sent me this article and it was really

00:38:24.780 interesting. It was, it was something that you wrote on your sub stack and I can't

00:38:27.700 remember the title of it right off hand, but you talked about this concept of gossip and

00:38:32.200 how men will often laugh and poke and, and, and mock women for gossiping. And yet we engage

00:38:39.180 in it to the same degree with a little bit of a twist, maybe even more so. Um, yeah, I'd

00:38:44.500 like to hear your take on that because that is something that we definitely engage in and

00:38:47.980 especially in the realm of social media and building movements like we're trying to create

00:38:51.980 here. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, definitely in the realm of social media, I don't think men 0.98

00:38:57.260 really realize how much of what they do is technically gossip. Uh, you know, just because

00:39:01.900 we, you know, they say women gossip about celebrities. Well, men just have different

00:39:06.000 celebrities. You know, if you watch ESPN three quarters of that, all their talk shows are

00:39:10.840 just gossip. I mean, they might talk a little bit about what actually happened on the field

00:39:15.140 and everything else. Can you believe that so-and-so was taking this contract? And then he said

00:39:19.280 this, and then he said that, and it's all this, all this moral judgment and arguments about

00:39:24.520 that and whatever. They're going back and forth. They're basically gossiping. And the same thing,

00:39:28.300 I mean, like the jujitsu world, like, you know, like whatever Craig Johnson and, and, uh, uh, uh,

00:39:34.420 what is it? Gordon Ryan, whatever they're saying back and forth. Uh, it's all, and there's,

00:39:40.140 you look at the comments, there's thousands and thousands of comments on all of those posts of 1.00

00:39:44.240 guys being like, yeah, that guy sucks. That other guy sucks. They're all just gossiping back and 1.00

00:39:49.020 forth about it. And that's, and, and that's what drives so much as we're talking about

00:39:53.020 engagement. Uh, you know, like, uh, YouTube comments, all that stuff. People start these

00:39:57.660 wars to start all these guys gossiping back and forth. And it's really just not, I don't think

00:40:04.460 it's very dignified and it's not, uh, it's, it's, it's very non-productive. I think it's a very

00:40:11.080 unproductive use of your time. You're like spending a lot less time talking about yourself and talking

00:40:14.840 about some other guy and all the things that he's doing now where that, you know, in that piece

00:40:21.000 that I wrote, it's called, I think, uh, gossip carrying call, I think is what it's called.

00:40:25.280 Uh, but on my sub stack, I, that was one of those pieces where I wrote myself to a little bit of a

00:40:30.560 different opinion, uh, because I went through the anthropological research and what, what

00:40:35.780 anthropologists say about gossip. And they tend to talk about it in this very neutral term because

00:40:43.400 a lot of it is what we do to regulate each other's behavior morally.

00:40:48.840 Well, it's relatability too, right?

00:40:50.940 Yeah. Well, but, but it's what they're saying is basically, okay, well, if you go to a small town

00:40:55.440 and you know, so-and-so cheats on so-and-so, and then everybody knows about it and everybody

00:41:01.380 talked about it and then no one wants that to happen. So it actually kind of regulates their

00:41:06.120 behavior.

00:41:07.160 Like social accountability in a way.

00:41:09.180 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's probably happened in every tribe that's ever existed. Like, Oh,

00:41:14.460 can you believe what's, you know, talk, talk and, and grok, grok over there did, uh, while they're,

00:41:20.380 you know, like, I just, I'm sure you researched that. I'm sure that was their names too.

00:41:26.360 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's my best caveman names for right now. But, uh, yeah, but if you think,

00:41:31.220 I mean, we've been doing that for all of human history. And so that is part of how we make decisions.

00:41:36.360 And it was talking about how, even like when locates men go out on a hunt and, you know,

00:41:41.620 they're going to come back and be like, well, can you believe what Bob did? Uh, he really screwed

00:41:46.020 this up. He called, uh, you know, he, he made some noise and then the deer ran away, you know,

00:41:49.800 like, like you're going to men talk about their, each other's performance that way. And, but that is,

00:41:55.840 I think that's very productive. And so I think when we talk about gossip in a negative way,

00:41:59.860 the way we need to, to identify what we really mean when we say that is malicious gossip.

00:42:07.220 Like, are you, are you doing so, are you tearing someone down just to tear them down

00:42:11.500 because it makes you feel good? And that's a lot of it because, you know, you can have nothing going

00:42:17.400 on for you in life. And then, you know, they always say like, you know, haters are always the

00:42:20.220 ones beneath you. They're like, not the guys who you're trying to be, but yeah, you know,

00:42:25.060 those millions of guys in the comments who are saying you're a terrible person or whatever,

00:42:29.040 like it feels good to do that. Especially if you're, I always like to imagine when that

00:42:35.660 happens to me, like I used to like to imagine them in the line at DM, at the DMV, you know,

00:42:40.660 like they're, they're in some place they don't want to be and they're bored and they're annoyed

00:42:45.680 and they're just looking for something to do, you know, and it's something to like feel

00:42:50.000 meaningful about. Yeah, exactly. And, but you know, that's like I said, is that

00:42:54.520 you know, when we encourage that, like, is that the culture that we want? You know,

00:43:00.280 do we want to encourage culture of just guys just like talking trash all the time or, you

00:43:07.660 know, is that is in, and so a lot of influencers will like lean into that and just let's, let's

00:43:12.640 create drama and have all these guys talk trash. And is, is that positive? Like, is that

00:43:17.380 the future that we want? Are those the kind of men we want? You know, I think that's an

00:43:20.300 answer a good question to ask. I think, I think it's a good point. I heard this interesting

00:43:25.620 concept that I had never considered. And it was just a couple of weeks ago. I had Father

00:43:29.440 Stephen Gadbury on the podcast and he was talking about what accountability actually is. And I

00:43:33.860 think a lot of these guys who were calling people out would say, well, you know, I'm just

00:43:38.440 holding him accountable. I'm just holding these people accountable. And what Stephen Gadbury

00:43:43.960 said is that that's not accountability. That could just be being an asshole. Right. Real 1.00

00:43:49.700 accountability means, and this goes back to what you were saying about your tribe. Real

00:43:53.080 accountability is if I'm going to call somebody out, then I'm also simultaneously volunteering

00:43:59.600 to walk with them on a journey to improvement. And that's accountability. So if you said to

00:44:05.200 me, and you've done this before, you've, I wouldn't say called me out, but you've said

00:44:08.620 things before. And I'm like, okay, let me think about that for a second. And I'm willing

00:44:12.640 to acknowledge that because I know that you're not just taking pop shots from the cheap

00:44:17.920 seats. You're actually like, no, I care about you, Ryan. I think you're wrong. Here's

00:44:22.820 why. Let's work through it together. And that's accountability, not just spewing nonsense or

00:44:29.940 running your mouth about. So that's more malicious gossip like you're talking about.

00:44:33.400 Yeah. Yeah. And it's just cathartic too. Like I said, it just makes you feel good to say

00:44:37.000 something bad about somebody else. I mean, my one, I do as an American, I do put politicians

00:44:44.280 into a separate category for that. Like, I feel like it's our job to talk trash about 0.62

00:44:48.360 them because they take our money and spend it. But like, otherwise it's our job. It's

00:44:52.640 part, it's just part of our duty to, those are our representatives. So if they're acting

00:44:57.100 on our behalf, it is our responsibility to say, uh, no, you're representing me. Here's

00:45:01.280 what I want represented.

00:45:02.720 Right. Right. So, I mean, I think, I think they're on a different level of the game, but

00:45:06.300 I think when you're just talking about other guys, uh, yeah, I think there's no, especially

00:45:10.980 guys who are theoretically on your team. Uh, why are you, why, why are you engaging in

00:45:16.040 that? You know, like, and that, that's a shame. Cause you know, like, uh, I, you know, we

00:45:19.980 were talking about our space, you know, whatever, whether the man is fear, it's an outdated

00:45:24.380 term, but like, you know, the men's improvement space or just, you know, masculinity space.

00:45:29.580 Uh, you had so many guys really descended, I think at a certain point into this WWE culture

00:45:36.900 of guys, you know, fighting with each other for likes and views and starting fights.

00:45:42.880 And like you guys are like, you have the points of disagreement are so small, but you're calling

00:45:49.680 each other out and really just hurting morale generally. And I see that happening in politics

00:45:55.220 a little bit right now too. I'm not really a big fan of it. Uh, you have like all these

00:45:59.660 people who are basically on the same side and you're just attacking each other and cause

00:46:04.280 it's just, it's bad for morale, you know, like, uh, but, but it gets everybody likes

00:46:09.020 and views. And, and so that's why they kind of do it, I think. But, uh, uh, yeah, I think

00:46:14.220 if someone's, you're basically on the same team and you want more or less the same things,

00:46:20.500 uh, why are you taking like sleazy pop shots of each other? You know, it just doesn't, doesn't

00:46:26.020 help anyone. And, and people could say, like you said, even when it's the big guys holding

00:46:30.260 the other guys accountable, like I've just want to expose these frauds or whatever.

00:46:34.320 They're all saying stuff like that. And it's just, they're, it's all likes and views and

00:46:37.200 they're full shit. But, uh, it's, you know, the other, you, you, there's, if you really 0.99

00:46:43.840 cared, obviously you talk to that guy in person, you know, not, not, uh, try and drag him through

00:46:50.060 the mud on the internet. Uh, you know, like in front of everybody, you're basically putting 0.92

00:46:54.360 him in the like pillory or whatever. Uh, you know, like you're going to, you're just going

00:46:58.000 to like, well, have everybody throw rotten tomatoes at this guy. Uh, and if you really

00:47:02.440 wanted to improve him, like you, you said earlier, uh, you'd probably reach out privately

00:47:07.140 and, uh, you know, try to offer some advice and not everyone wants it, but like, I mean,

00:47:13.400 that's, that would be the correct way to do it. If you want to be on a team of where

00:47:17.680 everyone's winning, that would be the, what I would say is the masculine way of, of doing 0.98

00:47:24.100 something. If you see a problem, you address the problem. If you're not willing to address

00:47:28.900 the problem head on, ignore it. Don't worry about it. Maybe it doesn't apply to you. Yeah.

00:47:32.800 I think the example you used in your article or one of the examples was a man in sweats and

00:47:40.160 a woman in a dress at a restaurant and somebody captured that brief moment in time. Who knows?

00:47:45.280 Maybe he just got out of the hospital. Uh, you know, maybe he just got done with a workout

00:47:49.780 and he wanted to go have lunch with his lady and he only had 15 minutes before he had to get to

00:47:54.640 wherever. We don't know. Just leave the guy alone there. Yes, there is masculine behavior that we 1.00

00:48:00.880 ought to be aware of, but we don't need to poke at people that we know nothing about. Yeah. And

00:48:06.980 that's, that's something I also wanted to talk about because we were kind of our general subject

00:48:10.700 that we were going to talk about is that, you know, not everyone wants to be in a reality TV show

00:48:15.940 and that's, that's what the internet kind of has turned into. And a lot of people didn't notice

00:48:21.640 that it turned from a content creation machine from social media. It's really not that anymore.

00:48:27.480 It's just a content machine, but they, you know, this idea that everyone's, everyone is no matter

00:48:34.980 what they're doing at any time, their behavior is, is something that should be talked about and can be

00:48:40.940 blown up and made into this giant thing. Uh, I think that you, we should have a choice as to

00:48:48.060 whether or not we're going to, you know, become reality television stars because there's some

00:48:53.180 people who want to do that. And the internet wants that it wants it so much, you know, because people

00:48:57.360 want to be voyeurs and they want to know what you're having for breakfast and what you're doing

00:49:01.320 all day long and whatever. And, uh, you know, I don't want to live that life. You know, I don't want

00:49:07.260 to have everybody in my business and it's not because I'm doing anything wrong. It's just because

00:49:10.200 most of the time it's boring. Uh, but you know, I do the same thing every day. Uh, but

00:49:15.980 people want to be involved in your life. And I think that there's, and that can hurt your life.

00:49:21.500 You know, when you have invite the whole world in to be part of your reality television show,

00:49:26.320 um, it hurts all the people around you, you know, like there's, and I, I've been very, I mean,

00:49:31.600 you've met Lucio. I mean, like no one on the internet knows who Lucio is. And he doesn't,

00:49:35.860 they don't need to be involved. He didn't sign up for that. He didn't need to sign up to have his life

00:49:39.800 under a microscope for the whole world. He's just a normal person, you know? And, and that's,

00:49:45.100 I think that people need to be, have the freedom to be just like private people.

00:49:51.520 Well, I think that's right. Like if you want to be a voyeur and you want to put your stuff out there

00:49:54.720 and I do, you know, because it's, I enjoy sharing what is working and what isn't working. I enjoy

00:50:00.160 hopefully giving people some inspiration or a new way to consider some things, but I signed up for that.

00:50:05.940 The guy next to me in the, in the line at the grocery store didn't sign on for that. So I don't

00:50:10.560 have any right to infringe on his Liberty because I think it'd make a good talking point. I remember

00:50:16.580 years ago, there was a picture of this like really skinny, frail man. And I posted online and

00:50:23.380 I kind of mocked it a little, quite a bit actually about like, Oh, look, this is what manliness today

00:50:29.160 looks like relative to, you know, a hundred years ago. And somebody reached out to me, a friend reached

00:50:34.240 out to me. He's like, Hey, I know that guy. And he's battling terminal ill, a terminal illness.

00:50:39.720 That's why he looks like that. Right. And I'm like, Oh shit. Yeah. My bad. I took the post down

00:50:46.540 and it really made me reconsider what we've been talking about is we don't, we don't know people's

00:50:55.480 stories and that's okay, but don't, you don't need to drag people through it. And the other problem,

00:51:01.060 and you, you actually, I reached out to you a couple of days ago cause you made a post

00:51:04.560 and the post you made actually applied to me as well. Cause you talked about this concept

00:51:09.540 of men who put themselves on these pedestals. And I think at one point, uh, about three or

00:51:15.240 four years ago, I started to do that a little bit and I got a little too big for my britches.

00:51:20.280 And I, I was very public about my alcohol abuse and then my, my divorce that I went through.

00:51:27.720 And you had said in that post, it just the litany of men who put themselves in that position

00:51:34.000 and then fall in the hypocrisy of it. I couldn't help, but feel like, Oh yeah, that definitely

00:51:38.600 applies to me. I don't think you were calling me out by any means, but I can, I can take that

00:51:43.580 and say, is he right? And the answer was yes. But the point that you made is you better have

00:51:49.720 your shit together, like dialed in, locked in. If you're going to put yourself in a position 0.99

00:51:54.960 of judging and critiquing other people. Right. Yeah. That's, that's the main takeaway

00:51:59.940 from that. And, you know, and there's things I can give advice about or things that I, I feel

00:52:05.340 that I'm right about. I'm really right about. And, and, and I'll talk about those things, but that's

00:52:11.340 one of the reasons why I never got into coaching. Like everybody, a lot of people in our space got

00:52:15.520 into coaching and then they're telling these guys how to live their lives. I'm like, man, I don't know

00:52:19.320 how to tell you how to have a wife and four kids and get a job that I've never had and all these

00:52:24.060 things. I don't know how to do that. So I try not, I try not to go outside of my wheelhouse. I don't

00:52:28.160 tell how people out of raised kids. I don't have any kids. Why would I tell them how I don't know

00:52:31.600 anything about that. And so like, I think that you, you, you need to pick the things that you're

00:52:36.880 an expert at and then not try to be an expert at all things. And a lot of these guys who

00:52:41.840 presented themselves as I am the exemplar, I am the alpha, you know, I am the alpha. You should

00:52:50.560 live your life exactly as I live my life. I mean, every kind of, everyone kind of enjoys it when

00:52:56.060 they watch them go down, you know, like there's because, you know, like, Oh, this guy taught, 0.99

00:53:00.360 this guy called everyone else a piece of garbage. And then, Oh, look what happened. Uh, you know, 0.99

00:53:06.660 and there's, there's been a lot of that. And, and some of it's sad. I mean, there's people who

00:53:11.720 have, uh, like, uh, you know, I mean, an example, because everyone talks about it and it's fine.

00:53:16.700 And I don't think it's me gossiping, but, uh, one of the guys who replied in the comments was,

00:53:21.160 I had met when he was one of the liver King's assistants. Uh, and he's like, he's like, I know

00:53:27.400 I was with the King of lies, you know, and, and, but many such cases, uh, you know, there were a lot

00:53:33.360 of guys who got in on, like I said, kind of monetized mail and security and they, you know, became,

00:53:40.720 I'm the alpha, do what I say. You're a loser, pay me money. And, and they kept doing that thing. 1.00

00:53:47.620 And I don't think that they really cared what happened to the men or not, but they're just,

00:53:51.180 this is the, this is the game. This is where the money is. And I'm going to do this for a while.

00:53:55.620 And, uh, and a lot of those guys did end up falling. We've seen a lot of them. And, you know,

00:54:00.080 like in every area, it's not like one religion. It's not like whatever. It's like in every area,

00:54:04.660 you've seen a lot of those guys just go down because they, they put themselves, you know,

00:54:08.160 the Greeks would have called it hubris. Uh, they, they put themselves at a super God level 1.00

00:54:12.500 and, uh, then made them as if they were unassailable. And of course everyone screws up,

00:54:19.240 you know? And so if you put yourself on a microscope like that and you screw up,

00:54:23.000 then everyone's going to know about it. And I mean, I've like, when you had your situation,

00:54:27.300 I had definitely had some empathy for that because I had been, I had some idea what that feels like.

00:54:33.320 I mean, I didn't have a big, as big of an arc at some point, but man, uh, you know, I,

00:54:38.960 I wrote a lot about tribalism. You should start a gang. Uh, you know, I, I, and then I joined a

00:54:44.340 tribe and then I quit, you know, I, I joined a tribe and then like, when man don't think that

00:54:51.260 wasn't part of my thought process towards the whole thing, like no one's ever going to listen

00:54:54.780 to anything I say ever again. And, and I, I, and so like thoughts like that. Yeah. I mean, I,

00:55:00.600 I was like, I, I kind of have an idea of what he was going through. That was 2018 for me.

00:55:04.520 It is like that when that went down, I was like, uh, and you know, I still probably don't talk a

00:55:09.740 lot about like, I'd still think that men need a group of men and they should try to find a group

00:55:14.880 of men and, and all those things that I said that were still right, but I definitely picked the wrong

00:55:18.840 tribe. And, uh, I, you know, I, I, I put myself out there doing that. And then, you know, like I had

00:55:23.660 to back away from it cause I, I just picked the wrong guys. And, uh, so, you know, like it is,

00:55:29.000 it happens to all of us to some degree, I think, but you know, it's like the more areas that you

00:55:34.300 say that you're amazing at, you know, like you're going to, one of those is going to fall apart,

00:55:38.540 you know? Uh, I think I have this, like this really, I've, I've, I've acquired this through

00:55:44.620 some really painful lessons over the past three or four years now, right. Where I have this really

00:55:50.020 healthy level of fear in my soul that if I start to get prideful about my relationship or my kids

00:56:02.400 or my financial situation or my health, I, that scares me because I think you can either be humble

00:56:12.760 or God will humble you. And I don't, I'm not interested in being humble the way I have been

00:56:18.600 over the past three years that I do not want to be humbled that way. So I really do try to stay

00:56:23.020 home. It gets the better of me at times still, but I really am fearful of what comes after pride

00:56:31.280 as they say, right. Uh, uh, pride comes before the fall. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know,

00:56:39.040 that's, that's what always happens. And so, yeah, it is, it, I think that's a healthy level of,

00:56:44.600 of being careful. And that's one of the reasons, I mean, unfortunately that's part of getting older

00:56:49.620 to you because you, you, you, you've, you've, you've stumbled a few times and you've, you know,

00:56:54.660 what's happening. And so you're a little bit less like, I don't know, you know, like there's an age

00:56:59.260 that like, I was telling my buddy, cause he's about that age right now. I'm like, you are that the

00:57:02.380 perfect age to like know everything and be believable. It's about 35 around 35. Yeah. It's like 25.

00:57:10.600 You think, you know, everything, but you're actually retarded. Uh, but like at around 35, 1.00

00:57:15.380 you've had enough life experience. You can say things with confidence and whatever. And then I

00:57:19.720 think when you get a little older, you get, you're like, Oh, well that didn't work out the way I

00:57:23.500 thought it was going to work out. You, you've, you've been through that a few times. So that's

00:57:26.720 why I think the, uh, uh, older men tend to hem and haul a little bit more like, uh, like maybe that'll

00:57:32.660 work. I don't know. You know, that could be, that could be the way, or it might not, you know,

00:57:38.520 like, and I'm, I'm more in that way. It's just not a sexy. Oh no. Right. No, because yeah,

00:57:44.660 that's the issue. That's why everybody wants you to have like the exact opinion. And like,

00:57:49.160 this is the way, and you sign up for my course and this is the way, and I'm going to fix your life.

00:57:54.100 And I'm going to, everything's going to be better. And, and I know the answer and that's what they

00:57:58.380 want to hear. Cause people love confidence. You know, if you want to be a leader, you have to project

00:58:02.060 that confidence because otherwise they're going to be like, Oh, my leader is a loser. I don't want to hang 0.97

00:58:05.740 out with them. But if you, if you feel like, if you look like, you know, what's going on and you

00:58:09.780 can, you can convey that, uh, you know, people are going to follow you. But then, like I said,

00:58:14.500 I think, I think it was Ryan McGinn. I think, uh, I was talking to Tanner about the other day.

00:58:18.800 We're in a, what people are calling a, uh, I think Ryan said it was, it's, it's a trust recession

00:58:26.400 because we had such a big explosion. Yeah, totally. It's, we had such a big explosion of these big

00:58:34.380 influencers all throughout the masculine state, but everywhere women had it too. And, uh, all these

00:58:41.300 people telling them people that they had all the answers and sign up for my thing, enjoy my thing

00:58:45.860 and whatever. And now it's harder and harder to get people to do that because I think people have

00:58:50.500 had, they've been burned or they've seen these great idols fall like before their eyes, like over

00:58:56.180 and over again. And they're a little bit like, yeah, I'll wait and see with that guy, you know,

00:59:00.620 like wait and see what he's going to do. Or, you know, like people are a little bit more wary

00:59:04.560 than they used to. And that's why, you know, people like these really raw, we're going through

00:59:09.560 people, people are like these really raw, uh, like just talking into your phone as a normal person.

00:59:15.520 Videos have kind of become a big thing. And I refuse to do that because I like things to be beautiful,

00:59:19.560 but, uh, there's not me. I talk into my phone while I'm driving down the road. So I'm,

00:59:24.480 I mean, I do that with my guys and I do do it with everybody, but like, I'm not, you know,

00:59:28.020 like if I'm going to make content, I'm like, I, I want things to look a certain way. Uh,

00:59:32.440 but, uh, it's, I think that, you know, that's what people like right now just because it,

00:59:38.040 it's so underproduced that they feel like it's real, you know? And then, and there,

00:59:45.360 there's some truth and some not true with that because anyone, you know, like I'm sure you've 1.00

00:59:49.980 known and I've certainly known men who are just extremely charismatic and also full of shit, 0.97

00:59:54.340 you know, like there's, that's, there are men who can just sell you broken glass and they're, 0.99

01:00:01.740 they're just good, you know, like, but they, that doesn't mean that they're, they know what

01:00:05.760 they're talking about, but that, you know, yeah, I think they're, I think they're two different

01:00:09.820 things, but I do agree that most of the time, not most, but in a lot of cases, it overlaps where

01:00:14.080 you have the silver tongue salesman and you know, he could sell ice to an Eskimo, but on the backside, 0.99

01:00:20.760 he's, you know, full of garbage, his life's a mess. And I do think to your point though, 0.99

01:00:26.340 people are looking for credibility and confidence in their, in their leaders, especially in social

01:00:30.920 media. And we do have a problem of putting people on pedestals. They don't belong. People do it with

01:00:35.620 me. I'm sure people do it with you. And, and I don't belong on a pedestal. I need to, and if I

01:00:41.200 am tempted to put myself on a pedestal, I need to be very careful of that. And if I see other people

01:00:45.840 putting me on a pedestal, not only is it not good for them, it's not good for me. It's not fair to me.

01:00:50.120 Right. Because I'm a human being. I'm going to fuck up again. Yeah. Every day I do something I

01:00:57.780 shouldn't do to varying degrees. Right. But, um, yeah, don't, we, we shouldn't be idolizing these

01:01:03.860 people. If they have something good to say or something valuable that we think we could

01:01:08.520 incorporate into our lives that would help, then that's great. But also remember they're not Jesus.

01:01:15.160 They're not God. They're, they're just a human being and you can take the good and you can siphon

01:01:21.940 out the stuff that doesn't work or isn't moral or isn't with your honor code and go on about living

01:01:28.740 your life. Yeah. And there's another point, something that you can't control when you're a public figure

01:01:35.020 of any kind is that people actually write their own stories about you in their heads.

01:01:40.600 Uh, I could, I could put all the caveats in front of everything that I say. I can sit and write as

01:01:47.360 I often do. I'm like, I'm just, I'm just a guy. Uh, you know, like I'm just a guy figuring this stuff

01:01:52.320 out. You know, like I'm not right about everything. I'm done. You know, there's some things I'm definitely

01:01:55.660 right about, but like there's other things that I'm like, I don't really know. Uh, you know,

01:01:59.660 I don't have everything wired, uh, you know, like, uh, in my life. And, uh, uh, but people,

01:02:06.480 because you'll present yourself in a certain way or you look a certain way or whatever,

01:02:09.960 they will actually write their own narrative about you, about what you claim to be. And you

01:02:15.400 can't control that because he, you know, if you're putting all the work and is saying like, Hey,

01:02:20.000 I'm not this, I'm not that I, this is what, cause I've, I always had from the very beginning,

01:02:24.760 I was very specific about like, I don't, I want to say what I actually believe and what I don't

01:02:28.320 believe and set boundaries and, and, you know, all that and be, and be very open and honest about

01:02:35.500 what I'm trying to do. But that doesn't mean if someone sees you and you look jacked or whatever,

01:02:41.360 uh, they're like, you think you're better than everybody else. Yeah. They'll, they'll project

01:02:47.080 that onto you, whether you want it or not, you know, like you can be as real as you want to be,

01:02:51.540 but they, the people will project that and you can't control that. But there are people who will be

01:02:55.960 angry with you for not being the person that they made up in their, their own heads and that you

01:03:01.020 can't control it. I'm sure you've had that experience. I mean, like that, like you, I said

01:03:04.820 this and that, you know, I, and told you, I was just doing this, but in your mind, you wanted me to

01:03:10.280 be this person, you know? Right. Yeah. I needed, I needed to be that person in order to fit whatever

01:03:16.020 narrative you'd already conjured up in your mind about how you ought to live your life. Yeah, I do.

01:03:19.980 I have got that where, where guys are like, well, you know, here's another one I hear. Well,

01:03:23.940 you know, you're saying this today, but in podcast 17, you said this, I'm like, 17 was 10 years ago,

01:03:30.600 bro. I hope I'm saying something different in episode 1700 relative to what I said in 17. If not,

01:03:39.420 what the hell have I been doing for the past 10 years? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And,

01:03:45.360 you know, hopefully you've explained it along the way when you changed your viewpoint, you know,

01:03:50.360 but, uh, and I think most of us do. I mean, I try to do that. I'm sure you try to do that. Like,

01:03:54.600 okay, well, I had a change of view. I get called out all the time because in 2014,

01:03:58.680 I wrote an essay in a book that was published in 2014. I wrote an essay telling people not to vote,

01:04:05.320 uh, cause I was being an edgelord and, uh, and, and, uh, whatever. And, and yeah, I definitely vote.

01:04:12.420 Uh, and, uh, I can tell you why, you know, like, but, uh, yeah, I changed that position. Uh, but,

01:04:19.120 uh, I still get like, Oh, well, you said we weren't supposed to vote like that. Dude, that was

01:04:23.240 literally, you know, that was like 15 years ago. Uh, you know, like, uh, you know, the other thing too is

01:04:29.340 go ahead. Sorry. I interrupted you. You're good. I was just going to say the other thing too,

01:04:34.680 is I think that one thing that's helped me with not being enraged. And that's what I really want

01:04:41.960 men to hear as we're talking is, Hey, we don't need to be enraged about everything. You even said

01:04:46.260 it earlier. You don't need to have an opinion about everything, just the things that matter to

01:04:50.480 you. And one thing that's helped me along the way is believing that people, believing in redemption,

01:04:55.840 right? Believing that people can change, believing that people can learn lessons and improve their

01:05:01.260 behavior. And, and I've seen that I've seen that in myself. And I've seen people have that humanity

01:05:06.660 where it's like, all right, well, let's see what you do now. And I've had people over the past three

01:05:11.020 years who have come back and said, Hey, I stopped listening to you three years ago because of what

01:05:14.180 went on. But I just want to tell you, man, I've seen the way you've conducted yourself over the past

01:05:18.380 three years. And it's kind of inspiring. And one thing that I get really frustrated with is when I see

01:05:24.600 somebody else fall in some public and visual way and everybody just dog piles, you know, 0.56

01:05:31.380 and maybe that person does deserve that to a degree, especially if they were hypocritical as I

01:05:36.400 was, but also we ought to believe that a person can change themselves because if we believe that about

01:05:43.780 other people, it gives us permission to offer ourselves some grace and forgiveness as we fall and

01:05:50.740 mess up. And it just seems like a, a more stress-free, hopeful, optimistic way of living

01:05:57.680 your life than thinking that person's evil. Cause they did one thing one time and I hate them forever.

01:06:04.280 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are patterns of behavior. And then if you watch those,

01:06:08.540 they don't change, then you're like, okay, you're just, you just changed the script a little bit,

01:06:13.380 but you're doing the same thing. I mean, cause there are a lot of people like that. Uh, there's someone

01:06:17.300 who went on a little tour recently, uh, who was like, he was on Tucker recently. And I'm like,

01:06:22.940 that's the same scammy calm artist that he was before he's just doing a new thing. But, uh, I mean,

01:06:28.960 like my estimation of it hasn't changed. Oh, he, he found religion. He did a different thing. I'm like,

01:06:32.900 no, you are doing exactly what you're doing before. You just want attention. But, uh, um, but yeah,

01:06:38.720 for, but I've, I've certainly changed over the years and, uh, you know, I think, yeah, we have to,

01:06:43.340 we have to give people an on wrap, an off ramp. Uh, a lot of my friends have been saying that

01:06:48.400 recently. Like, uh, you know, if, if you want, if you say someone isn't living the way that you

01:06:53.840 think that they should, you have to give them a way to stop that. Uh, you don't have to give them a

01:07:00.820 pod, the possibility of change. Otherwise, if you're always going to hold them as to the person,

01:07:05.100 why would they change? You know, if you're going to hold them back to that person,

01:07:08.100 why would they be any better? Uh, cause you're no matter what I do, I'm always the bad guy.

01:07:14.040 So therefore why should I change becomes like there, that's going to be their mentality.

01:07:18.620 You're encouraging them to stay the way they are. So yeah, you have to give them some opportunity

01:07:22.880 to change, but also I think, you know, there is a tendency like people in the way that people make

01:07:30.620 fake apologies. I mean, politicians do it a lot, but celebrities, all kinds of things, like you got

01:07:35.280 caught and now you're going to go on your apology tour and say, I've totally transformed as a human

01:07:40.860 being. Well, we'll see in a few years. Like, like let's give it some time here. Yeah. Let's give it

01:07:47.100 some time. You don't get to just like change overnight and have everyone believe it. You know,

01:07:51.500 like, I think you have to like, somebody says, I'm sorry. Like, yeah. Yeah. Somebody says, you know,

01:07:56.540 like you get, you get into an argument with your wife and you're like, Hey babe, I'm sorry. And she

01:08:00.880 doesn't change her behavior right away. You're like, what's your problem? I said, sorry. It's like,

01:08:03.940 yeah, but you still did that thing. Like give it some time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like you did that

01:08:10.240 thing 300 times, uh, just because you said you're going to stop doesn't mean you are, you know,

01:08:15.300 like, and so, and that's all in all areas of life and all, there's all kinds of areas where people do

01:08:21.220 that. Like, you know, it's like, you know, you can say it with people in dieting, you know, like,

01:08:24.780 oh, you're, oh, really? You're going to stop eating that. Okay. Yeah. Like, you're like,

01:08:28.020 let's see. Yeah. Like, uh, we'll see that, uh, you know, uh, yeah, all across life. Yeah. You

01:08:34.680 just have to, you have to give people a chance for redemption, but you also have to give them time

01:08:39.700 to demonstrate that they've actually changed, uh, before you accept it as like, this is a

01:08:43.940 transformation rather than this is, this is a, you know, like a fake apology. Uh, you have to,

01:08:50.680 and as the transgressor, as the transgressor, I, I think you need to also be aware that people don't

01:09:00.760 owe you their forgiveness, right? They give, give them some space to, and say, Hey, you know, like

01:09:06.840 you, you, you did this thing over time. You don't just get to have changed behavior by them. Go through

01:09:13.520 the repentance process. That's what it is. It's a repentance process. Go through that process and let

01:09:18.740 people work through their process and afford them the space and grace they need. I do like,

01:09:23.200 cause this ties into the concept of the honor code you were talking about earlier. And I, I actually

01:09:27.700 really appreciate the fact that you're saying that there are some people that I care about how they

01:09:34.060 view me, how they perceive me and why that's valuable. Because the common narrative is I don't

01:09:39.280 give a crap what anybody thinks about me. They don't like me. That's their problem. It's like, 0.99

01:09:42.980 no, I actually care the way my kids feel about me. I care about what you and other people in my circle

01:09:50.000 care about and think about me because that is important. I respect them. I respect their opinion.

01:09:56.720 They help me be better. And so I should care about some of those things.

01:10:01.940 Yeah. I mean, that's what, that, that's the positive part of the gospel. That's the positive

01:10:06.420 part of like the, people always say the honor is bad. I mean, obviously it's a big thing on the left

01:10:10.940 that the honor is bad, but, uh, having, having this reputation that you have to be mindful of

01:10:19.740 does regulate your behavior. And it, and if you're picking the right people who their behavior is also

01:10:27.720 good and their values are also your values, then yeah, it's a very positive thing. I mean,

01:10:32.660 I just did something with my guys from my group. Uh, you know, I, I took three months off of, uh,

01:10:38.680 drinking and energy drinks and, Oh, I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, you took another drink

01:10:43.740 of an energy drink and it like blew your mind or something. I can't remember. I was just messing

01:10:47.420 around. I was just messing around, but like, uh, uh, I was just jumping on a trend with that one,

01:10:52.360 but, uh, but it is, but I mean, I couldn't let them down because I'm the leader a, and also because

01:11:01.840 like I said that I was going to do that. And so I can't, I don't want to lie to the guys.

01:11:06.860 So like, even though I really want a Negroni right now, I like, I'm like, I, I, I can't lie to the 0.95

01:11:12.160 guys. So I didn't have a drop of anything for like three months. And so that, that, that was

01:11:17.060 having them there, uh, even though they weren't, they couldn't watch me, they don't know what I'm

01:11:22.200 doing, but having them there as people who I respected, you know, their opinions and their,

01:11:27.380 their, their estimation of me is, uh, was helpful for me, you know, like that helped keep me on

01:11:34.140 track and helped me do what I said I was going to do because I didn't want to be a liar. And I

01:11:37.440 didn't want a lot of them. And I say, I think that's a big part of how honor and having that

01:11:42.440 sense of reputation, uh, with the right group of men can really help us to be better men.

01:11:51.020 Right. Right. Well, Jack, I appreciate it, man. I love our conversations. One of the things that I

01:11:56.200 really, uh, appreciate and admire most about you is your thoughtfulness. And that it keeps me on my

01:12:01.460 toes. When I hear you talk about the, the concepts and the ideas, ideas that are important to you.

01:12:07.600 Um, it gets me thinking, I don't always agree necessarily, but it gets me thinking in a way

01:12:11.440 that I haven't before. And I think that's one of the best things that you bring into my life

01:12:14.800 indirectly is getting me to think about these concepts in different ways. And I, man, I just

01:12:19.540 going to tell you, I appreciate that about you. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way.

01:12:22.660 Cool. Well, thank you.

01:12:23.440 So tell the guys where to connect. I know that you had, you had told me, and you, you said this

01:12:28.340 publicly, so I can say this here that you're, you're writing a new book, but that'll probably

01:12:31.680 be next year sometime. Um, any, any teasers, any hints at what we're looking at with that book or

01:12:37.500 anything like that, that you're willing to share?

01:12:39.700 Oh yeah. I mean, I think I want to write a book about virtue. You know, I wrote a book about the,

01:12:44.320 you know, like you have to separate being a good man and being good at being a man,

01:12:47.700 but they aren't mutually exclusive. I just had to separate those to talk about a certain concept.

01:12:53.440 And, uh, virtue has always actually meant masculinity first. Virtue meant manliness to

01:12:58.900 the ancient Romans. Uh, the veer that it comes from means man. It actually means manliness in

01:13:04.860 ancient Romans. So, uh, you know, in ancient land. And, uh, so I think that that's a kind of natural

01:13:12.900 evolution of, of my work is to talk about the concept of virtue and its evolution and, and some of the

01:13:19.600 things that you have to consider, not really telling people how, what, how they should live,

01:13:23.740 but things that they might want to think about, uh, I think is, is the way I'm going to approach

01:13:28.160 it. I'm, I do get a little more philosophical the older I get. Uh, but so I'm working on that

01:13:32.500 and, uh, I I'm enjoying Substack. I, I, I don't write constantly, but, uh, Substack makes me feel

01:13:39.500 like a writer again. I mean, that's how I started out doing this and I'm like, just write it. And that's

01:13:45.360 what people, I don't have to be a clown on the internet. You know, like I can just like write a

01:13:49.620 thing and think about it for three days and then, you know, put my best out there and then people

01:13:54.420 read it and people really go to Substack to read long form content. So I'm, I'm enjoying that. Uh,

01:14:00.460 so you can find me on Substack. I'm sure you'll put a link there and, uh, and just Jack Donovan

01:14:06.380 Substack. I'm sure it'll come up. And then obviously I have my group, the order of fire, which is very

01:14:10.780 specific thing for a very specific group of guys. And, uh, and that's, that's the main thing I'm

01:14:15.980 doing. And like we said at the beginning of the show, uh, right now I'm trying to make more art

01:14:21.420 and I want to do that and make more, be more creative and make more art because that's what

01:14:26.040 I love to do. Uh, running around shooting, uh, a whole strong man meet all day for eight hours.

01:14:32.280 I didn't even go to the bathroom. I was just like, go, go, go, go, go all day. Uh, and it was so fun.

01:14:38.160 Um, and that's, that's what I love doing. And I love sitting in the editing room and editing a

01:14:42.620 video and putting it all together. And this kind of feeling of being almost a filmmaker,

01:14:47.740 uh, you know, like, Oh, like this, you see the narrative, you feel like a conductor, like,

01:14:52.020 Oh, here's the music where the music hits and bam, you know, it's there, there's this magic to it that

01:14:57.480 I really am enjoying right now. So I'm doing that as a living. So if anyone lives in Arizona, uh,

01:15:03.140 you can hire me. Uh, basically that's, that's, that's one of the things that I'm trying to get.

01:15:07.100 If they pay you enough and they don't live in Arizona, they can also hire you.

01:15:10.160 Yeah. Yeah. We'll travel. We'll travel. You wouldn't put me on a plane. I'll come out and

01:15:14.400 throw me. But, uh, but yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm really excited about that and to see

01:15:19.140 where that goes. And, and, uh, you know, I look at some of these guys' lives, uh, who looking at

01:15:24.060 their Instagram profile, some of these photographers and videographers and all the stuff that they're

01:15:28.100 doing. And I'm like, that seems great. They're just making art every day. I want to do that.

01:15:33.780 You know, man, I had a friend, a friend of mine. Um, gosh, I wish I could give him a plug. I can't

01:15:39.080 think of his, Oh, uh, I think it's called Tyler Rye photography. I think that's right. Tyler Rye

01:15:43.240 photography. When I met him, we were in a business, a local business group together and he was doing,

01:15:48.680 he was replacing car windows, uh, with cracks and chips and you know, that sort of thing. And,

01:15:54.040 um, but he was a photographer and he's, he's built this business over probably 10, 15 years now

01:16:00.100 to he's a destination. He's a destination wedding photographer. And I see his work. He's in Scotland

01:16:05.540 and Thailand and Australia. And the work he does is just amazing. I'm like, man, it's so cool to see

01:16:12.020 somebody that I knew who was replacing car windshields and doing photography on the side

01:16:17.740 to this, this destination wedding photographer. So I'm cool. I'm excited to see, uh, where that

01:16:23.500 journey takes you, man. It seems like a pretty exciting one to you and I'm glad for you.

01:16:26.840 Well, Jack, we'll, uh, we'll link everything up. I appreciate you and taking some time to be with

01:16:31.320 our guys. I know a lot of the men who listened to the order of man podcast and are part of our

01:16:34.860 movement, uh, very, but very much believe in, in the message that you share as well. So I appreciate

01:16:40.160 you taking some time to share it with us. Cool. Thanks for having me. Thanks brother.

01:16:46.240 There you go. Gentlemen, my conversation with the one and only Mr. Jack Donovan. I hope that you

01:16:50.960 enjoyed that one. I've known Jack for a decade and I always enjoy our conversations. As I

01:16:56.820 said in the podcast, he gets me thinking about concepts in ways that I mostly agree, but

01:17:02.800 not have, have not really considered some of that perspective before. So it's very refreshing

01:17:08.440 to me, uh, especially since I'm immersed in this space and I'm sure it is for you as

01:17:13.000 well. Make sure you follow him, connect with him, uh, check out his sub stack. We talked

01:17:16.660 about the article that he did. Uh, I think it was, I think it was April. If I remember correctly

01:17:21.540 of this year, um, on, on why this performative outrage stuff just doesn't make sense and why

01:17:27.620 people are clout chasing and all that kind of thing. So he's got some great works over

01:17:31.000 there over at a sub stack under Jack Donovan. And last thing, guys, just take a screenshot

01:17:35.160 right now. Screenshot posted up on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, wherever you're doing your

01:17:40.700 social media stuff, tag me, tag Jack, let other people know that you're listening. This is a

01:17:44.860 grassroots movement and we don't pour a whole lot of money into ads and spending. And we want to

01:17:51.460 build this grassroots. And it means a lot to me if you leave a rating review and it means a lot to me

01:17:55.780 if you share so other people can see what you're engaged in, what you're listening to, and hopefully

01:18:00.900 what you're benefiting from last thing, check out the men's forge, the men's forge.com. And hopefully

01:18:06.740 we'll see you guys in April. We'll be back tomorrow for our, ask me anything until then go out there,

01:18:12.060 take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man

01:18:17.700 podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:18:22.820 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - December 16, 2025

JACK DONOVAN｜ Why Outrage Culture Undermines Masculinity

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