Order of Man - JAMES ALTUCHER ｜ How to Skip the Line and Get Ahead Faster

00:00:00.000 Guys, we've all heard people say you've got to pay your dues or heard the concept of the 10,000

00:00:04.560 hour rule, but what if it didn't have to be that way? What if you could skip the line,

00:00:09.220 so to speak, and accelerate the results of your life while everyone else stands in line,

00:00:14.140 simply waiting for their turn. That's what my guest today, the one and only James Altucher

00:00:18.260 and I discuss how to use the concept of 10,000 experiments, not necessarily 10,000 hours.

00:00:25.520 We talk about why quote unquote staying in your lane is bad advice, how to become the top 1% in

00:00:32.220 your field much more efficiently, how to become an idea generating machine, harnessing the power

00:00:38.140 of idea sex as James refers to it as, and how to creatively add value to others so you can win

00:00:46.560 faster. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly chart

00:00:52.180 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not

00:00:58.060 easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:05.220 This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done,

00:01:10.000 you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on? My name is Ryan Mickler. I'm the host and

00:01:15.760 the founder of the Order of Man podcast and also this movement, which we launched in March of 2015.

00:01:21.180 So for the past six years, we've been going strong. And at this point I've interviewed,

00:01:25.520 I believe somewhere around 340 highly, highly successful men from entertainers and athletes

00:01:35.780 and business executives. I mean, you name it, we've run the gambit on the men who have joined us.

00:01:43.160 Guys like James Altucher, my guest today, Steve Rinella, Andy Frisilla, David Goggins,

00:01:48.260 Jocko, Tim Kennedy, you name it. We probably had them on the podcast. And it's my job to continue

00:01:55.760 to get great podcast guests for you so we can take their information, break it down,

00:02:02.020 learn how to apply it in our own lives and achieve similar results as husbands, fathers,

00:02:07.420 leaders in our community, business owners. However, we're showing up as men. So very briefly,

00:02:12.480 if you would, please continue to leave the ratings and reviews. We've seen a bump over the past several

00:02:16.460 weeks in ratings and reviews because I've asked for those things. And it means a lot to me that

00:02:20.800 you take a couple of minutes and do that. It isn't a lot. It's only a couple of minutes,

00:02:24.980 just wherever you're listening to the podcast, just go leave that rating and review. But trust me,

00:02:29.080 it goes a very, very long way, especially if we have hundreds and thousands of men leaving ratings

00:02:34.100 and reviews, because we need to bump this thing up. And it's not about bumping it up in the charts

00:02:38.700 necessarily. It's about the men and the families and the people that will reach doing this good work

00:02:43.060 of reclaiming and restoring masculinity. So we're going to get into the conversation here in just a

00:02:47.380 minute. I do want to make a very quick mention of my friends and show sponsors. They also help this

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00:03:53.200 out. And when you go to either Jocko feels.com or origin, main.com use the code order O R D E R at

00:04:00.360 checkout for an exclusive discount. When you do again, it's Jocko fuels.com or origin, main.com

00:04:06.940 use the code order. All right, guys, let me introduce you to James. Uh, this guy's one of

00:04:12.780 the most interesting guests I've had on, frankly, again, his name is James Altucher. Now I think I

00:04:17.600 stumbled across his podcast originally years ago and have since just been extremely, extremely

00:04:25.140 fascinated with this interesting and unique person. And of course his take on life. And I really think

00:04:31.200 it's men like James that cause us personally to consider what is possible. Uh, and, and what most

00:04:37.940 people would probably consider impossible or unlikely or improbable. So James is a trader. He's an investor.

00:04:44.840 Uh, he's had hedge funds. Uh, he's a speaker. He's an author, a podcast host. He's a business owner.

00:04:50.300 He's a standup comedian. He's also a chess master. The guy's absolutely amazing. Uh, very,

00:04:56.980 very interesting. He's made millions. He's lost millions multiple times over, but he's really using

00:05:01.520 his interesting and non-conventional approach to life to create meaning and purpose and interest

00:05:07.820 and significance for himself. And of course the millions of others who are inspired by him. So

00:05:13.520 gentlemen, enjoy the conversation. James, great to see you. I've been following you for a long time.

00:05:18.760 So I'm honored to be able to have this conversation now, Ryan. I'm so excited to be here. I love the

00:05:23.500 name of your podcast. Also order of man. What, what, uh, what resonates with you about it? What do you

00:05:28.760 like about it? I feel, I feel like the word order of implies not only just a kind of demographic,

00:05:36.560 but that there's a code of values that one should live by. And I do think that whether it's traditional

00:05:46.000 or evolutionary or psychological, or just something stupid, men and women both live by different codes

00:05:55.640 of, of values and ideals. And again, some of that might be commercially focused or focused by parents

00:06:03.280 or school or education or bosses, but, or jobs, but it has happened. You can't deny it.

00:06:09.820 Right. Yeah. I agree. That's part of the reason you could be. So I want to be the, you know,

00:06:14.840 I, I don't necessarily want to, um, follow blindly the code established by 3 billion people,

00:06:22.640 but it gives me sort of a sense of, you know, where I'm different and where I'm the same and,

00:06:29.500 and, you know, which, which pieces I like and which pieces I don't and so on.

00:06:34.660 Yeah. That's a long answer to why I like the name of your podcast.

00:06:38.020 I'm always curious. You actually hit on both reasons order, obviously just some sort of

00:06:42.260 fraternal organization, a collection of people, right. But then creating order and structure and,

00:06:47.700 and having that code that you talked about and, and shared values, but the system is important.

00:06:52.880 And I like that you've created a lot of systems in your life for making sure that, uh,

00:06:57.840 you're being creative, that you're exercising and flexing that muscle. It's funny because so many

00:07:04.240 people think that creativity has to be entirely spontaneous, but the thing I liked about,

00:07:09.120 especially with your latest book is that you almost in a way codify it and give us some real

00:07:13.980 practical applications for being more creative. Thanks for saying that. Like, and I'm not,

00:07:19.640 you know, we could talk about anything. I'm not here to sell the book, but this book was my,

00:07:24.720 I still had my usual stories and experiences. And a lot of the experiences of, uh, you know,

00:07:31.680 podcast guests or historical anecdotes or whatever, but this was my most practical

00:07:36.540 book to date. And I really, you know, and, and by practical, I don't mean what I see in a lot of

00:07:44.440 books like, Oh, this scientific research says, if you cross your legs and the other person crosses

00:07:49.240 their legs, then you could control the, this is practically in the sense that these were all

00:07:54.240 techniques that have worked for me. And some of them are unusual techniques, but they've actually

00:07:58.440 really worked over and over and over again. And I feel they would necessarily, they would work for

00:08:02.180 others. So, and I've seen them work for others. So, so I was happy to do this book. I, this might

00:08:08.260 even be my last like nonfiction book or book in this style, just because it was so practical

00:08:14.440 that I felt like, I don't know what else to say. I might do a different type of book, but,

00:08:20.840 but not this type of book anymore. Did I, did I hear maybe as I was listening,

00:08:25.120 or maybe I've heard something else that you are contemplating writing thrillers? Is that what I

00:08:30.200 heard? Yeah. I, I, I wondered if I made that up or really heard that, you know, well, you know,

00:08:35.440 when I was younger, I used to really love like beautiful literary fiction and I still do like

00:08:40.180 if, if, and there, you know, there's lots of different definitions of literary fiction. I have my

00:08:45.120 own, but I really also love books that have no pretensions and are simply page turners. And if I

00:08:54.200 learned something in them, that's great, but, but they're just so good at the art of storytelling

00:08:59.860 that I love a book like that. Anybody who's pretentious and says, Oh, well, I don't like

00:09:04.600 John Grisham. Well, they probably haven't any read any John Grisham books. Cause they're like

00:09:08.620 amazing page turners. Now, some people I don't like, cause I think the writing might be a little

00:09:13.140 boring or not believable. You still need to be a good writer to write a good thriller, but a thriller

00:09:18.480 has its own particular structure. A horror novel has its structure. A mystery has its structure.

00:09:23.420 Science fiction novel has its structure. These are all different structures and how you play

00:09:27.900 with structure is part of, you know, the challenge of an artist. One of the things that I like about

00:09:33.700 fiction that I don't know that I would always say is that it's just intrinsically valuable.

00:09:40.040 So for example, you take a skip a line or any sort of self-help type work. It's good. It's practical,

00:09:47.220 but you read it for a desired outcome. I want to learn these two or three or five or 10 things so I can

00:09:52.320 produce better in my life. But the reason you would read fictional work is to enjoy the book period,

00:09:59.060 the end. It's just intrinsically valuable. And I think more people need to do that in their lives

00:10:03.300 rather than focusing on some desired result. Yeah. Like even, even books, like let's say that

00:10:08.380 are fictional versions of George Washington or, or Abraham, like Brad Meltzer, a very good writer wrote,

00:10:14.640 um, a book about the plot against George Washington. And it was based on historical,

00:10:19.420 this conspiracy that was going to try to assassinate George Washington, but it was still

00:10:23.560 the, the, the, the George Washington stuff we all know about. So it gives a kind of foundation for

00:10:28.960 the book that we can all relate to, but ultimately it's gotta be a good work of fiction or I'll read

00:10:33.700 a history book instead. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I made a post the other day and I, and I,

00:10:38.960 and I said something about quote unquote, staying in your lane is bad advice. And I think if there's

00:10:44.680 anybody who epitomizes the idea of why staying in your lane, isn't always the best route to go,

00:10:50.340 it's you from self-help type books to potentially writing a thriller to hedge fund investor and

00:10:56.620 everywhere in between. And I love how many different veins and routes and avenues, and it just makes life

00:11:04.640 very interesting. And I think it actually gives you a lot of edges in a very sane kind of boring,

00:11:12.380 mundane world. I think that's probably a white guys like you stand out quite a bit.

00:11:17.300 You know, it's very interesting. I've never thought of it this way, but you're, you're,

00:11:21.560 you're right. This staying in the lane. What's, what's a lane? Like, what are you, if you, if you're,

00:11:27.060 you know, uh, an orthopedic surgeon, I don't even what's orthopedic. Is that like the back or,

00:11:31.820 okay, let's say you're a podiatrist, the foot, should you never give a medical opinion other than if

00:11:37.800 it has to do with the foot, even though you went to like eight years of medical school, it's so like

00:11:42.220 the lane in, in the past century or the past 70 years, the lane, I'm putting it in quotes for

00:11:50.040 people who aren't seeing the video, the lane has gotten more and more narrow and niche.

00:11:54.580 It's a very narrow lane and it's very easy to like crash and pull off the lane. Whereas if you're on

00:12:00.400 like a 50 lane highway, you're, you're, you're not, you're, you know, you could swerve and go

00:12:05.860 around different lanes and you just learn more. Like if I know a lot about physics and I also know

00:12:11.800 a lot about, uh, I don't know, uh, writing, well, what's the intersection? I can write a popular

00:12:20.140 physics book, which, you know, so you have people like, uh, uh, you know, Stephen Hawking,

00:12:26.000 Michio Keku, Brian Green, uh, Neil deGrasse Tyson, or I can write a popular science fiction novel that

00:12:33.380 makes use of physics. So like, like Andy Weir who wrote the Martian, you know, have some knowledge

00:12:38.640 of physics and, and so do I mean, so, so the idea that I should only, you know, do one thing makes

00:12:46.880 for a very boring person, I think. And also there's another point there too, which skipped the line

00:12:50.820 addresses, which is that it's not very difficult to switch lanes to the point where in your,

00:12:59.300 you're in the top 1% in the world in many lanes. So whereas Stephen Hawking might be the top,

00:13:06.020 you know, when he was alive, he might've been the top physicist in the world. Uh, take someone like

00:13:11.920 Neil deGrasse Tyson, and this is with all respect to him. He's been on my pocket several times. I've been

00:13:16.040 on his pockets. He's not in the top 10 or even 20 or even a hundred physicists in the world,

00:13:22.660 but he's maybe in, he's certainly in the top 1% of physicists in the world, but he, but he's in the

00:13:28.360 top one or two of people who combine excellent communication skills with physics. And that's

00:13:36.420 what makes him so special is that he didn't stay in his lane. He didn't just try to, uh, work on

00:13:41.660 some new twist of black holes and stuff like that. He's, he became a communicator and now he's,

00:13:47.620 you know, the, the runs the Hayden planetarium in New York city is very exciting. So I think staying

00:13:54.500 in the lane is the, is, is the fastest route to a boring life. And I should add also, as I mentioned

00:14:01.920 with Neil deGrasse Tyson, you don't need to be in the top 10 of the world. You could be in the top 1%.

00:14:09.440 So what does that mean? Let's take something like chess, which got popular after the Queens

00:14:13.960 Gambit TV show on Netflix, which was about, I guess now about eight months ago. Since then,

00:14:19.600 there's something like 65 million people signed up for chess.com, which is an online place where you

00:14:26.920 could play chess. So if you're in the top 2% of chess players in the world, that means you're in the

00:14:34.620 top, you know, 1.3 that you're one of 1.3 million people. And, and you could still know enough that

00:14:43.780 if you, particularly if you combine it with other skills, it could propel you to play a meaningful

00:14:49.240 role, whether it's as a communicator, as a writer, as a chess player, as a coach, as an instructor,

00:14:55.320 as someone who uses chess skills in business. And to be in the top 1% of something doesn't require

00:15:02.940 10,000 hours, you know, depending on, on what that category is, it might take what, you know,

00:15:09.900 what I call, you know, experiments, like it might take a hundred experiments or, or, you know, less

00:15:16.180 than a hundred hours to be in the top 1% of a field. You know, like my, my wife recently had a,

00:15:21.620 a parathy, parathyroid ectomy. She had a surgery, which is, it removed the, I never even heard of these

00:15:28.460 things called parathyroids. They're next to the thyroid thyroid, which is why they're called

00:15:32.080 parathyroids. And she had one that was inflamed and they removed it. And it's not, it's not a

00:15:37.940 big surgery. And many people don't know about it, but for me, as soon as she got this diagnosis,

00:15:44.520 I read maybe 50 to a hundred different papers on it. I spoke to doctors about it. And it's not like

00:15:52.440 I could perform surgery on someone's parathyroid, but I would say I'm in the top 1% or 2% of

00:15:59.640 knowledge about this. Like I asked other doctors about parathyroids. They had no clue. So unless

00:16:04.900 you're an expert or me, you're probably not in the top 2% of this thing. And it was, you know,

00:16:10.740 it took a few weeks, but it was relatively straightforward. Well, and not to mention,

00:16:15.220 is, is it going to make life better for you? It's, it's actually going to advance whatever's

00:16:19.180 meaningful and significant to you and whatever you're chasing, because you're, you're bringing

00:16:23.820 experience and concepts and ideas from this realm and you're bringing it over here into this realm.

00:16:29.740 And it's non-traditional. And usually what happens is when somebody from the outside comes into a

00:16:34.800 certain place, maybe it's chess. I don't know much about chess. People get thrown off the,

00:16:39.240 out of the loop for a minute, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's, what's going on here? And then they have

00:16:43.860 to adjust and then they get better and you get better. You talk about this concept. I think

00:16:49.040 you use the term idea sex. It actually reminds me a lot of a blue ocean strategy. Did you ever read

00:16:54.180 blue ocean strategy? No, I didn't. I know some of the concepts from it though. Yeah. Cause they talk

00:16:58.740 about, I think one of the examples they use is Cirque du Soleil and they talk about combining the

00:17:05.220 circus with theater to create this entirely new uncontested market space, very similar concept.

00:17:11.820 No, and I'll give you, I'll give you an odd example that just came to mind when you mentioned

00:17:15.440 chess and, and whatever there, there's a saying in chess, one way beginners get good. Is there a lot

00:17:22.920 of like kind of quotes or sayings that you memorize these nifty little quotes, you could get better at

00:17:29.720 chess. So like one is called the threat is stronger than, than the execution. So attacking, you know,

00:17:35.900 threatening to take a queen might be much stronger than actually taking the queen. So, so, but here's an

00:17:42.760 example in a, in a, in real estate negotiation where the exact, you know, I was doing a real estate

00:17:48.320 negotiation recently and the exact quote occurred to me where it was very extremely useful. So I hope

00:17:56.060 this doesn't sound too, too wonky in the details of the negotiation, but let's say you're buying a

00:18:00.660 house and you, and you want to offer, you know, the house is for sale for 500,000, just making numbers

00:18:06.920 up, and you want to offer a little lower. So here's, here's a case where the threat is stronger than the

00:18:12.580 execution. And, and me thinking this allowed me to do this. You can offer 400,000, but you could also

00:18:20.260 have a clause that says, no matter what other offer you get, I will offer $50,000 higher. And so now

00:18:29.300 they're not going to get an offer for a million. So I, I'm, I know my risk is limited, but you know,

00:18:36.500 if someone hears that an offer on the table is there's an offer that includes no cap that whatever

00:18:44.280 I offer, they're going to offer $50,000 more with no cap on that, that's going to scare away. That's

00:18:50.960 a threat. That's going to scare away all the, I could offer 3 million. I don't know if they're

00:18:55.240 going to offer 3 million, 50,000, and that's going to scare away anybody else. Meanwhile,

00:18:59.980 let's say someone offers 500,000. I could just say, nah, I'm out. Like I didn't sign anything

00:19:06.600 that binds me to this. So it's just a negotiation. So that's a case where the, I have all the benefits

00:19:13.320 of a bluff, but none of the downside to use a poker analogy, but it really fits the concept of

00:19:20.240 the threat is stronger than execution. I'm threatening that I could pay infinite. Nobody knows. And if they

00:19:26.580 make an offer that's binding, they'll be stuck if it's too high because they're afraid of me,

00:19:31.500 but I take, I take no risk. If someone offers 3 million, I could just say, ah, I'm out.

00:19:36.900 Nevermind. That that's interesting. That's, that's one of those things. And this is one of the trends

00:19:41.300 that I saw in, in the book you wrote is, uh, that it's almost one of those things you're not quote

00:19:48.200 unquote supposed to do. And I, and I think people get afraid of that and it's not so much the result of

00:19:55.340 that. I think a lot of the times people won't do these things that are not supposed to do like step

00:19:59.100 out of line metaphorically to go with the book, uh, because they're worried about the perception

00:20:03.780 from other people, not what actually might happen when you do it, but the perception that you're

00:20:08.100 cutting in line or you're being inappropriate, uh, or, or you're an asshole or any number of things

00:20:14.660 you think people might think of you when you do this. Yeah. I mean, all the time, you know,

00:20:20.040 let's say you decide, Oh, I'm very interested in golf. And let's say you never played golf before,

00:20:28.400 but you take lessons and, and you know, you, you, you improve your handicap from a 60 handicap to a

00:20:34.520 10 handicap. And then you write an article, like, here's my golf experience. You could be worried

00:20:39.920 that all these professional golfers are like, who is this guy? Like he's no, he's, he's nothing.

00:20:44.700 He's no good, but, uh, who cares what they think? You know, like when I wrote this book,

00:20:50.660 skip the line, I was writing a lot, not a lot, but you know, I had in 2015, like it was about

00:20:56.240 six years ago, I started doing very actively standup comedy. Like I'd perform five times a

00:21:01.620 week. And when I was writing this, I was writing a little bit about my experiences getting better.

00:21:06.660 And I was thinking, Oh, comedians are going to hate this. They're going to think who's,

00:21:10.800 who's this guy to be writing about, but who cares? Like that's a group of 50 people that I might be

00:21:16.600 worried about. It's a huge world. These are valuable experiences that, um, inform on all types of

00:21:22.620 learning. And, uh, you know, I think, I think the source of much unhappiness is worrying about what

00:21:30.420 people think of you now don't get me wrong. I do worry about what people think of me very often,

00:21:35.260 but you just have to keep in mind that it's, it's not the most important thing to worry about.

00:21:41.900 And that, and that helps dealing with it because we all care a little bit where we're tribal animals.

00:21:45.820 We care a little bit what people think of us, but, but having tools for dealing with that and

00:21:50.020 understanding what's going on is, is useful. Well, and I think, I don't think it's actually

00:21:55.180 bad to worry about what people think of you, but it has to be the right people. And I think what

00:22:00.340 happens is a lot of guys end up focusing on appeasing the wrong people. Like, for example,

00:22:06.440 I care about what my wife thinks of me. I care about what my children think of me. I would say

00:22:11.660 most people would say that's entirely appropriate. So it isn't about not caring what anybody thinks.

00:22:18.000 It's about caring what the right people think. But I am curious on your standup comedy, you know,

00:22:22.500 with that thought, as you were going into it five or six years ago, what was the actual reception

00:22:27.680 from your, your peers, those in, in the industry already? Yeah. And by the way, it's interesting.

00:22:33.480 There's, you mentioned the wife and the kids, it's almost like there's concentric circles of care.

00:22:38.060 So like wife kids might be the most was the tightest circle around you. And then the rest of your

00:22:46.500 family is the next circle. So like siblings, parents, cousins, their opinions important to you,

00:22:53.000 but it might not be as important. And if they disagree, if you have too many fights with them,

00:22:58.760 maybe you need to take a break from them, whereas you're not going to take a break from your kids

00:23:01.680 or wife or whatever. And then there's your, your friends, then coworkers, then community,

00:23:09.300 then society, then social media, which is, you know, I separate that from society because it's a

00:23:15.400 little more anonymous and, and, and on and on, who knows what other, you know, what other circles are

00:23:21.200 in between. And even in coworkers, there's different types of coworkers is your boss. And

00:23:25.000 there's people who work in the next building, but you know, there's still coworkers. And, uh, with

00:23:31.180 comedy, first off, uh, my friends thought I was crazy. They're like, Hey, we already know you're

00:23:37.360 funny. Why do you need to go on stage in front of 30 people and tell jokes? And that was an

00:23:42.700 interesting question because what was I satisfying some emotional hole that I had or what was going on?

00:23:50.120 And I had to think about it, but the, my peers, the, the comedians, particularly the ones who had

00:23:55.200 been doing it for, for 20 years, but hadn't really found, uh, they were super funny, but they might not

00:24:01.100 have found huge financial success. Cause that's, there's a luck factor in that in, in things like

00:24:05.980 comedy. And they were very upset. They were like, this guy, literally they were told me, they told

00:24:11.960 me, or what I remember specifically one guy, but many people said this one guy said to me,

00:24:15.960 you can't skip the line. You got to pay your dues. I've been doing this for 20 years.

00:24:20.360 You don't even find your voice until you've been doing this for 10 years. And I'm thinking to myself,

00:24:25.620 I don't want to, I'm, I'm at the time I was like in my mid forties or something. I don't want to wait

00:24:31.200 10 years to find my right. I've been doing writing and public speaking for, for 20 years. I don't need

00:24:37.680 another 10 to find my voice here. And I'm, you know, so meanwhile, he's telling me this 30 seconds

00:24:42.820 before I'm about to go on stage. Uh, so, you know, he had an agenda and you have to just put

00:24:48.880 everything in context. Like he was giving good advice that in general, it's a very difficult skill

00:24:53.880 and respect the skill, but in terms of his own personal timeline, he was projecting that onto me

00:25:00.840 and maybe he cared about me a little bit, but also he was worried. He didn't want me to pass him

00:25:06.540 because he's been doing it for 20 years and he won success and maybe just was jealous that I was

00:25:13.020 going to be able to do it. I'm not saying that in a bad way. Maybe he wasn't jealous or, you know,

00:25:17.160 it's almost a cliche to say, Oh, when someone hates you, they're, they're jealous, but sometimes

00:25:21.400 they truly are. Sure. Yeah. You know, the, the, the concept of the 10,000 hour rule always,

00:25:28.500 I won't say it rubbed me wrong, but it didn't sit quite right with me because what I thought of,

00:25:33.420 and you opened my eyes to some new considerations, which we'll get into. But when I thought of it,

00:25:38.080 I'm like, well, okay, 10,000 hours, but not all 10,000 hours are the same. Like if I was doing 10,000

00:25:44.980 hours of nonsense towards something, it wouldn't be nearly as effective as being, being fully committed

00:25:49.920 heart, mind, soul into the thing and putting everything into each one of those hours. But then

00:25:56.040 you unlocked it even further and said, Hey, forget about the quality of the hours. Like what if we just

00:26:00.520 change it to experiments and we can skip the line and we don't have to wait seven years or whatever

00:26:07.260 that equates to, and we can experience those results a whole lot quicker, which I think everybody

00:26:11.420 wants. Yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, the whole nature of an experiment is you have a theory about

00:26:18.060 something and maybe you don't know the answer, but maybe all of society doesn't know the answer,

00:26:22.120 because if you have a theory about something, in most cases, you could just look it up on Google

00:26:25.380 and find out your answer. So doing an experiment on even a field that millions of people are involved

00:26:32.400 in might improve your understanding of that field in ways that nobody else understands.

00:26:38.120 Do you do enough experiments? You could legitimately claim to be in the top one or 2% of knowledge,

00:26:42.760 or at least ready to have idea sex or, or possibility sex with another field that you're familiar with.

00:26:49.960 And again, the 10,000 hour rule, whether or not is even true, it really refers to, I want to be the

00:26:55.600 best in the world. Like I want to be the, let's say someone wants to be the best tennis player and

00:27:00.480 they're, and they're eight years old. They need to put 10,000 hours and more or less to be, you know,

00:27:06.320 to win Wimbledon. Assuming they have some talent. Now, some people argue there's no such thing as talent,

00:27:11.040 but let's say there is such thing as talent. Assuming they have talent and they put in 10,000 hours of

00:27:15.100 what's called deliberate practice. Maybe they'll win Wimbledon, but to be the kind of tennis player

00:27:20.860 who could beat all your friends, you don't need 10,000 hours. Maybe you experiment with a type of

00:27:27.320 serve that has this weird backspin on it that you master after 12 hours of practice or 50 hours of

00:27:35.520 practice. It's an experiment. If I do this weird backspin that not a single coach in the world would

00:27:40.420 recommend, but it's really hard to get and you mix it up with some other spinning serves,

00:27:45.680 you might be able to beat all your friends at the club and, and that's good enough. And you'll learn

00:27:49.980 enough. And then you read a book, the inner game of tennis, and maybe you experiment on, on your

00:27:55.120 backhand and boom, suddenly you're in the top 1%, which means you're probably one of 10 million people,

00:28:02.420 probably close to a billion people know how to play tennis. And it's good enough to be beat all your

00:28:08.080 friends and family, which, you know, that might be your goal. Yeah. It depends on what your goal is

00:28:12.940 too. That's right. That's the point. It's like, what is it that you want? What are you after?

00:28:16.580 Most people can't really answer that question. You know, I had an experience and I might've

00:28:20.740 written about it in the book, but it kind of really opened my eyes a lot to this idea of being in the

00:28:25.720 top 1% or 2% rather than being in the top 10 of the world. And I was in a taxi cab and, you know,

00:28:34.500 I was just making conversation. Uh, the guy, the driver was from Turkey and I said, Oh, what'd you

00:28:41.040 do in Turkey? And he, and, and he's like, well, I love playing chess. I played chess. And so I know

00:28:47.080 we're talking a lot about chess, but it's something I do. And, uh, I figured, okay, he's like, maybe he

00:28:53.760 knows the rules and he plays for fun or whatever. Uh, but, but he said, yeah, I was the champion of

00:29:00.360 Turkey. I was the national champion of Turkey. And I'm like, Oh, what's your ranking? And he told

00:29:06.120 me his ranking. And it was, you know, it was like a standard deviation above my ranking, meaning he

00:29:11.560 could probably beat me two out of three times if we were to play a match, but, but it took him an

00:29:18.000 extra to get to that level. It would take an extra four or five years of where I am now to reach his

00:29:26.600 level. So he must've put in four or five years of studying at least three to five hours a day, seven

00:29:32.620 days a week. And I'm not saying it's bad that he's driving a cab, but, but chess helped me get into

00:29:39.880 college. It helped me get my first job. It helped me get into graduate school. Uh, it helped me raise

00:29:45.260 money when I was raising money because people associate chess with a certain level of intelligence

00:29:50.420 and discipline and so on. So just reaching the master level of chess, I achieved my goal to,

00:29:56.980 to be success, to help me be successful in business, as opposed to being what's called an

00:30:02.780 international master of chess, which nobody knows the difference and spending an extra four or five

00:30:07.520 years doing that. Well, there's that, uh, that law of diminishing returns, right? If you, if you dabble

00:30:14.040 into things, you're talking about chess. When you say chess, I mean, I'm really hearing jujitsu

00:30:18.200 because that's something I've started to do over the past couple of years. And, and the concept is

00:30:22.280 similar. You know, if, if I go in and I take six months of training or even a year of training,

00:30:27.400 I'm probably going to be capable of defending myself or beating 95% or more of the population.

00:30:34.680 Now, if I want to beat the other 5%, you know, it's going to take me 20 years or longer to get to

00:30:39.760 that point where I can hang with a five, but the 95, yeah, I got covered after a year.

00:30:44.100 Well, let me even give another, um, let's take jujitsu as an example. Um, you know, I don't know

00:30:51.360 what the ranking system's like, or is there, are there color belts? Is that how they system? Yeah,

00:30:55.120 it's a belt system. So, so let's say there's a, uh, an eighth degree black belt and a first degree

00:31:01.100 black belt. I, if I were looking at them fighting equals to them, like if I was looking at the eighth

00:31:08.140 degree black belt fight, the first degree black belt, I could see who's better. But if I'm looking at

00:31:12.260 both these people playing, uh, you know, fighting their equals, I would not be able to tell with my

00:31:18.840 amateur eyes, I would not be able to tell who was better. It would not, they would both look like

00:31:23.800 the best in the world to me. I wouldn't be able to tell if they were in the top five people in the

00:31:28.020 world or in the top 10% in the world, it would mean nothing to me. And like you say, though, it would

00:31:32.360 take an extra X number of years to go from first degree black belt to eighth degree or 10th degree

00:31:37.720 black belt. And so it's not even important in most areas of life to be the best to achieve certain

00:31:45.080 goals. If you said to me, Oh, you're a black belt in jujitsu. I'm equally impressed as if you said

00:31:50.400 you were a 10th degree black belt in jujitsu. Right. And, and again, your goal might not be to

00:31:54.800 impress me, but maybe it's to a, be able to defend yourself against large category of the population.

00:32:00.400 B impress, you know, coworkers, friends, whatever about your, your work and ethic and discipline

00:32:07.320 and your fighting abilities and your, your physical shape. And, you know, why do you have to be in the

00:32:13.140 top 10 in the world? You're getting a lot of play. You can enjoy jujitsu for the rest of your life now

00:32:17.620 without being, you know, the best in the world, which might not be so enjoyable. And, you know,

00:32:23.400 there's a lot of benefits to being in the top 1% of something rather than the top 10 of all people.

00:32:30.400 Well, I think there's another benefit. It's interesting. We're talking about this because

00:32:35.160 I think we're both in this self-development, self-help space in one form or the other. And

00:32:40.380 these aren't conversations you hear a lot, like you don't need to be the best, but I thought about

00:32:44.640 this when I started podcasting about six years ago, I looked at what Joe Rogan was doing and I

00:32:49.520 thought, I want to, I want to have a podcast that's bigger than Joe Rogan's. And that was my

00:32:54.740 naiveness speaking, my ignorance about what it takes speaking at the time. And I started

00:32:59.960 podcasting and doing the things and got a couple of years and a couple hundred podcasts under my belt.

00:33:04.460 And then I realized I actually don't want that because there's other things that I want. I want

00:33:10.740 to be here with my family. I want to go on hunts. I want to participate in this. I want to explore

00:33:15.260 these interests and these activities and these hobbies. And if I want to be the best, I could pursue

00:33:19.200 that, but I'm going to have to sacrifice a lot of other things that I want in order to have that

00:33:24.340 thing I thought at the time I wanted. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a good comment because look,

00:33:30.220 we all, I'm a podcaster. We all look at Joe Rogan as man. First off, he has incredible skills.

00:33:35.720 His interviews aren't interviews. They seem like conversations. I can't tell the difference

00:33:39.660 between an interview and just a great conversation among intelligent friends with him. And he does it

00:33:45.900 like, he does like nine episodes a week, some outrageous number. And he's worked really hard at it

00:33:51.020 for over a dozen years. And on top of that, he's super talented. He's been a TV actor or a comedian,

00:33:56.980 a MMA fighter. So, so, so he's interesting, but here's where, you know, here's where experiments.

00:34:06.260 And again, there's a spectrum of skills and podcasting, like how good is one at having a

00:34:10.500 conversation? How good is one at, you know, keeping the story going and the flow going and so on.

00:34:15.740 And there's some skills, but here's where experiments are interesting. What if I, what if

00:34:21.040 the Joe Rogan arena is too crowded, which it might be, well, okay. Let's think of a different format

00:34:26.620 for a podcast. What if I were to call a random phone number and whoever answers I'm recording it.

00:34:33.600 And I, and my goal is to have one crazy, insane story before the end of the hour, just by calling

00:34:39.280 random bonus. And I'm just making this up. That's an experiment. And if that experiment works,

00:34:44.180 then you might have the most popular podcast in the world from just one experiment. If that

00:34:50.260 experiment doesn't work, who cares? Then you don't do it. And you wasted one day and, and you learn

00:34:56.320 something about a bunch of random people. Plus you learned something about podcasting. Plus you got

00:35:01.440 over kind of maybe fears of calling people cold. You know, you learn so many things, even when you fail

00:35:08.540 at an experiment. And if you see the upside, the downside was zero, no money, very little time.

00:35:14.220 And you learn something. The upside is infinite. Like it's incredible. You could have a podcast at

00:35:20.240 Joe Rogan's level. If that experiment works, man, let me just hit the pause button on our conversation

00:35:26.860 real quick. It's been a little while since I mentioned our free program called 30 days to battle ready.

00:35:32.500 Now, when you sign up for this program, what you're going to do is unlock access to a series of emails

00:35:37.600 and challenges and information designed to help you accomplish more in the next 30 days than you

00:35:43.960 potentially have all year. Now there's really two major factors guys. After interviewing over 300

00:35:50.340 highly successful men that may make men successful on any front, it's a network and it's a framework.

00:35:57.600 Now the network is our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council, but the framework for success

00:36:01.760 is what you're going to find in the battle ready course. And if followed to the letter,

00:36:06.560 you will achieve the results you desire this year, or at least move you closer to those results.

00:36:12.080 Whether that's weight loss or strength building, starting a business, salvaging your marriage,

00:36:16.500 or really anything else. So if you want the framework to achieve big results, you can get signed up at

00:36:24.280 order of man.com slash battle ready. Again, this is a free program. It's going to walk you through

00:36:29.180 all the information you need to implement in your life to achieve the results that you're after.

00:36:34.480 Again, order of man.com slash battle ready. Do that after the show for now, we'll get back to it with

00:36:39.660 James. Well, I think what doing experiments is, is it giving you permission to just start something?

00:36:48.480 Because one of the common comments and questions that I receive is, you know, I want to start this

00:36:53.120 podcast or I want to do this thing, or I want to grow this business, but I don't know where to start.

00:36:57.780 And as I was listening to you talk about it in the book, I'm like, this is it. This is where you

00:37:02.700 start. You just do little experiments that have tremendous upside potential, limited downside risk,

00:37:09.000 and you just start, you just do something. It doesn't have to be the ideal version.

00:37:14.260 You just test it to see if it's going to work. And if it does, you take one more experiment after that.

00:37:19.160 Yeah. Yeah. I, the other day someone was telling me, oh, I'd like to start

00:37:22.220 doing YouTube videos, but, uh, you know, I need to, you know, I, it's really expensive equipment.

00:37:27.300 I need to price it out, get like production assistant and all that. And I'm like, look,

00:37:31.380 look at your phone, right? The phone is, has a better video camera on it than what Martin Scorsese

00:37:37.480 use or Francis Ford Coppola used to shoot the Godfather. Like that shouldn't be holding you back.

00:37:42.800 And a lot of times, I think a lot of times, yeah, it's an excuse because maybe they're not ready

00:37:48.920 yet, or maybe they're afraid, or maybe, I don't know. I don't know what, you know, sometimes that

00:37:54.920 happens to me. I come up with excuses. It usually means you don't really want to do something. Like

00:37:58.680 if you really want to do something, you just go do it. Right. If I really wanted to write, even like

00:38:03.460 writing a thriller, I say, I want to write a thriller. If I really wanted to write a thriller,

00:38:06.280 I would just sit down today. I'd wake up a half hour early and write the first three pages of it.

00:38:10.760 Yeah. It's, it's, it's definitely true that if you wanted it, you, you would just do it. You

00:38:17.180 would get after it. You'd have no problems. Um, and not use that as an excuse to, to not move forward.

00:38:24.740 You know, I want to go back to something you said earlier, cause it caught me and I didn't,

00:38:28.040 and I, and I wanted to, I thought about it for a second. You said some people don't believe in the

00:38:32.720 idea of talent. I've actually never heard that before. I've never heard that concept. I've never heard

00:38:38.000 anybody say that. I'm really curious where that comes from.

00:38:40.760 Well, uh, so, so the guy who really, so Malcolm Gladwell popularized the concept of the 10,000

00:38:47.300 hour rule in the book outliers, right? But he was really just documenting the research done by this

00:38:54.520 one guy, professor Anders Ericsson, who's a very good guy. He recently, or past few years ago, he

00:39:00.000 passed away, but he used the one who really did all the experiments and research to develop the 10,000

00:39:04.160 hour rule. And his concept was if you spend 10,000 hours, give or take a couple of thousand hours of

00:39:10.200 what's called deliberate learning, which is you, you, you do something, a coach gives you feedback,

00:39:16.400 you do it again. So there's a lot of repetition, a lot of feedback and, uh, you know, from a, from a

00:39:21.740 coach who's better and you know, that's deliberate practice. Uh, and, and you, you 10,000 hours of that,

00:39:29.040 he says, you'll be the best in the world and, or among the best in the world. And he did not

00:39:34.840 believe at all in talent. So for instance, he would train people to win the world or us memory

00:39:41.840 championship. You know, how many numbers in a row can you memorize? And he, you know, the people he

00:39:46.840 taught using his theories broke every world record in memory. And his argument was none of these people

00:39:53.160 had any more talent than anybody else. He took, he picked random people and he taught them to be,

00:39:58.280 to break world records in memory. And he noticed the same patterns occurred, you know, in, in a lot

00:40:04.620 of other fields, although it's hard to really scientifically test many other fields. And so

00:40:10.440 he did not believe in talent at all, unless like, you know, in basketball, if you're only four feet tall,

00:40:16.780 you're probably not going to be an NBA player. There's some like natural limitations.

00:40:20.160 Yeah. But that may not be a talent as much as just a, a, a, a characteristic. It's something

00:40:25.460 different than I imagine a talent would be. Right. For example. And so I think in that,

00:40:30.740 you know, area of, of call it research or whatever they're there, like, what is talent in poker,

00:40:38.440 for instance, you know, some people are incredibly good at poker and some aren't, is there talent in

00:40:45.040 poker or is there a skill, you know, what, you know, and, you know, is there talent in math?

00:40:52.040 Is there a skill in math? Cause you know, some part of poker is being able to calculate statistics

00:40:56.340 really quickly. I mean, if you spend 10,000 hours really focusing on statistics and other skills

00:41:02.880 required for poker, you'd probably be the best in the world of poker. And I don't even know what

00:41:07.060 talent means in poker. Does that mean you have an ability to sense what cards other people have?

00:41:12.400 Like, it turns out that's not really such an important skill in poker. And yet this is,

00:41:16.640 this is a skill set that could make people a lot of money if they're good at it.

00:41:21.100 Yeah. I just, I don't know where I fall on this either.

00:41:23.920 Right. No, I'm, it's just an interesting concept. And as you talk about it, my knee jerk reaction is,

00:41:29.200 well, yes, there's talent. Some people are more talented than others. You can train somebody to beat

00:41:33.940 that talent, but imagine what you could do if you take somebody who's naturally inclined or gifted

00:41:38.600 and then teach them the right skill sets. Would that magnify them more than they could have gone

00:41:45.200 on talent or skill development alone? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's probably,

00:41:51.480 that's the accurate way to think about it. Like if let's say I'll take the area of chessy and let's

00:41:56.620 say you're 11 years old and you're incredibly strong at chess. There's gotta be some talent involved.

00:42:01.980 There's gotta be some part of your brain that is clear enough to see lots of things that other

00:42:07.740 people don't see on, on the board. I mean, it's a very complicated game. It takes decades to be

00:42:13.360 great at it. And, but I know, I know one guy who, when I, when I was younger, I was in my twenties.

00:42:20.980 Uh, my roommate was, uh, uh, my roommate's brother was probably the most talented chess player in world

00:42:28.760 history. Like he was unbelievable. He was 11 years old and he was just crushing every grandmaster

00:42:35.700 at speed chess. Like when you play fast. And when he would explain games to me, it sounded like I was

00:42:40.780 talking to like an, uh, an adult instead of an 11 year old. And, but then he didn't, maybe he didn't

00:42:47.300 get the right training or maybe he couldn't handle losing, um, when he played in actual tournaments.

00:42:53.780 But by the time he was like a teenager, he basically stopped playing and he, and he, he couldn't move

00:43:00.060 beyond a certain level. So, so developing the skill, even though there was talent developing,

00:43:05.300 the skill was a lot more important. Now, what if somebody has no talent? Can they ever develop a

00:43:10.980 skill? I don't know. Maybe you need a little bit of talent. I do know some people who weren't that

00:43:15.700 talented, who became incredibly good by with hard work. I guess it really just depends on if it

00:43:22.220 interests you or not. You know, like there's so many different things to, if this 11 year old,

00:43:27.300 Spanish, you're never going to learn Spanish, right? Or this 11 year old, maybe he's incredibly

00:43:31.780 gifted, talented, whatever you want to call it. And you know, he just doesn't like chess anymore

00:43:36.100 and that's it. So, okay. Find something else. I think when you love something, you, you, you are

00:43:42.660 able to remember the nuances a lot better. So let's say you don't really like golf, but all your coworkers

00:43:50.220 play golf. So you take a few lessons and you, let's say you have a really good coach. So you learn the

00:43:54.820 correct swing. You learn how to hold your feet. You learn how to, um, you know, hold the golf club

00:44:00.760 and you know, which club's good for which situation. But if you lose, if you're not really that interested

00:44:05.960 in it, you're not going to remember, Oh, you know, hold your feet at this angle and, and, you know,

00:44:12.780 you use this club for this. And, and when there's a wind, you know, here's how you, here's how you,

00:44:17.040 you might not remember all the, all the what's called chunks. So every skill is, let's say divided

00:44:25.400 into a hundred thousand chunks. So in poker, you remember if someone raises and then re-raises

00:44:33.860 and you have a pair of aces, you might want to go out. Uh, you might want to just fold. So that's

00:44:39.360 like a chunk, you know, whereas if somebody doesn't know that chunk, they might re-raise again with a

00:44:44.460 pair of aces because they have the best hand or who knows. And I'm making that up. I might have

00:44:49.100 described a bad way to play, but somebody's going to correct us. I'm sure. Yeah. So poker players,

00:44:54.760 they'll, they'll definitely correct. Oh, this guy doesn't know anything, but, uh, uh, you know,

00:44:59.580 so every skill is like almost the language of these nuances. And you just might not, if you're not

00:45:04.720 interested in the, in it, you're not going to remember if you're not interested in math, you might

00:45:08.760 not remember the quadratic equation or whatever, uh, or how to calculate an integral. I don't know.

00:45:16.000 So you have to think a lot of those things. Well, and I think a lot of those things, if you do have

00:45:20.140 a love for it, it would be even hard for you to explain. So people on the outside will look at it

00:45:24.380 and say, for example, Joe Rogan, you know, Joe Rogan, you're so good at this. And you say, well,

00:45:28.200 why are you good at this? And I bet he, if you asked him that question would have a very hard time

00:45:32.700 articulate. What do you mean? Like, isn't everybody, can't everybody just have a conversation? Can't

00:45:37.620 everybody just do it like this? He might have a hard time articulating what makes him so great at

00:45:42.360 it. That's a really good point. Like sometimes people who are the best in the world are maybe

00:45:47.760 the poorest teachers because they, they learned when they were really young and they don't, they

00:45:53.240 don't really, maybe they had a lot of talent, like you say. And so the work that was required for them

00:45:58.280 was different than the kind of work required for someone who like the work required for someone

00:46:02.840 who's 40 and just starting golf compared to the work of someone who's eight and starting golf,

00:46:08.260 that's completely different work. There's a completely different set of skillset. So someone

00:46:12.260 who learned to be a great golf player, but who started at the age of eight might not be good at

00:46:17.280 teaching someone who's 40 and has already built a lot of their physical habits and now needs to

00:46:22.400 unlearn things and learn the correct habits. Like this person's had all these good habits for 32

00:46:27.580 years. You might not understand what the requirements are, but that said, you know,

00:46:33.120 there, you, by dividing a skill, I kind of go through this a little in, in the book, but by dividing

00:46:38.880 a skill into micro skills and, and doing these experiments, you, you could kind of, uh, uh, you know,

00:46:46.280 start figuring out what your learning needs are versus someone who did something at eight. I mean,

00:46:50.600 my book's really focused to someone who's suddenly falls in love with computer programming at the age of

00:46:55.780 28. What do they do? Someone who started at the age of six might not be able to tell them. And,

00:47:02.700 and, you know, I've been a programmer. A lot of programmers are weird. They may not just have the

00:47:06.860 skills of teaching. And so, uh, you know, there's, there's a lot of different nuances in learning,

00:47:12.280 but my book is geared for the adult improver who really wants to be in the top 1% of whatever they

00:47:17.640 love. And it's, it's difficult, but not impossible. The other thing about loving, uh, what you do

00:47:23.380 is who you, every day we start off with a limited amount of energy. That's why at the end of the day,

00:47:31.120 we're tired and we need to sleep to rejuvenate. So when you learn something, you need energy to,

00:47:38.100 to learn and to do the thing. Let's say you want to write a book. You need energy to write the book.

00:47:42.580 Now, if part of the energy you spend is because you, you have to convince yourself to sit down and

00:47:49.460 start typing because you don't really love it as much as John Grisham loves it, then you're not

00:47:54.780 going to be able to beat the people who love it. It's going to be harder for you to be in the top

00:47:58.900 one or 2% of something. Cause you need, cause a good 20% of your energy is going to be spent every

00:48:04.260 day, just convincing yourself to do something you don't love. Yeah. But here's the beauty of this,

00:48:08.340 especially in the world that we live in. You don't have to be a New York times bestselling author

00:48:12.760 to have a large influence, to impact a lot of people, to make a lot of money. You don't have

00:48:19.380 to have this kind of podcast. You don't have to pursue that certain Avenue. There are so there

00:48:24.360 are an infinite number of routes that you can go where you think, you know, I don't want to write

00:48:28.380 a book. Cool. Don't write a book. You can still reach your goals doing it a different way.

00:48:32.920 Yeah. Or like, like take jujitsu as an example. Uh, if you did a podcast where all you did

00:48:38.140 was interview 10th degree black belts in jujitsu, you would have a very loyal, committed audience,

00:48:46.460 like extremely loyal. They would be highly engaged in your podcast. They would join the Facebook group

00:48:51.260 you set up about your podcast. They would discuss the different people you interviewed and what else

00:48:54.800 you could have asked and, and what the people said and how it applies to them. Extremely loyal,

00:49:00.160 but it'd be one, 1000th, the audience of Joe Rogan's podcast, but you wouldn't care because you love it.

00:49:05.120 And you love the people you interview and the audience is engaged with you and you might even

00:49:09.520 make money because you'll have, you know, jujitsu people who make jujitsu products might see how

00:49:16.340 loyal your audience is. And so they'll sponsor your podcast more than if you have like a general

00:49:21.000 podcast, it's trying to compete with Joe Rogan. Right. And I want to write a book, but let's say you do

00:49:26.740 10 episodes interviewing 10th degree black belts. Well, now you have an audio book, just combine them all

00:49:34.320 together, do some basic audio editing, maybe record an intro you do for each thing. And now you just

00:49:39.720 did it. You just quote unquote wrote an audio book. Right. That's, that's an experiment. Another

00:49:45.040 experiment along that line would be having a ghostwriter, take all of those, get them transcribed

00:49:50.700 by some audio equipment for a hundred bucks and then have somebody clean it all up for you. And all of a

00:49:55.440 sudden you have your words in written format. There's an experiment. It didn't cost you a lot of time or

00:50:00.140 money, high upside potential, low downside risk. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but you figure

00:50:05.100 out some things along the way. Right. Absolutely. You'll, you'll learn about the publishing process.

00:50:09.860 You'll, you'll, you'll have your go-to set of people for, uh, doing the editing, doing cover

00:50:14.780 design, uploading it to Amazon. And then at the very least you have your core audience. That's very

00:50:20.560 engaged and loyal to you who will buy the book in some form or other. And it'll, it'll, and then let's

00:50:26.480 say you want to, um, go on another podcast or you want to speak at a Ted talk. Well, if they're

00:50:32.600 choosing between the guy who wrote a book and the guy who didn't write a book, they're going to choose

00:50:36.240 the person who wrote a book. And like you said, like you said, it doesn't, you don't have to

00:50:40.200 actually write it. You, you, you, I mean, James Patterson doesn't even write his books anymore.

00:50:44.140 It's, you always see James Patterson with, and you know, it's, uh, uh, you know, it's a great,

00:50:50.100 it's a great kind of experiment actually.

00:50:51.860 You know, where a lot of men get hung up is they think if they, that, that if they pursue

00:50:57.160 one path, they believe they're pigeonholing themselves into this path. And what I like

00:51:03.240 about what you've been talking about the last little while. And in the book is you're almost

00:51:07.720 giving these guys permission. They didn't need it, but in a way, giving them permission to say,

00:51:12.660 look, you can go down this route, just take the first small step. And then you can pivot.

00:51:19.020 You can adjust. You don't have to pigeonhole yourself. Like maybe you did 40, 50, 60,

00:51:23.920 70 years ago when you pursued a career path in the corporate world, it's different now

00:51:28.020 and we ought to treat it differently.

00:51:29.860 Yeah. And, and, you know, also not every lane or skill or domain is equal. So, so for instance,

00:51:38.440 Jude, I'll, I'll, I'll, because you're into jujitsu, I'll keep using that as an example,

00:51:42.780 but it could apply to anything that might take two decades to, to reach your full potential

00:51:47.640 or 10 years or 15 years, who knows, but let's say you're an accountant. Now accounting is also a

00:51:55.040 skill and it's, it's a reasonably hard skill. Like you, if you love it and you study it,

00:52:00.300 there's lots of nuances in the laws. There's a lot, you have to know 600,000 pages of tax law and,

00:52:06.420 and really get good at it too. A good accountant is significantly better than a bad accountant,

00:52:10.660 but at some point there's a cap to how good you're going to be at accounting. And there's not that many

00:52:16.380 use cases per person. Um, you know, you file taxes once a year and you know, some people get in

00:52:22.720 trouble and some don't, and you have to be able to help them. But now let's say you're also interested

00:52:26.360 in sports. Well, the nuances of how sports figures, they get endorsements, they get, uh, uh, uh, you know,

00:52:36.520 their, their, their salary, maybe they are occasionally get sued for various reasons. And so their,

00:52:44.860 their nuances might be different. So you can combine your interest in sports with your interest

00:52:48.520 in accounting and keep learning as opposed to just going into work, doing the same things every day.

00:52:54.560 And, you know, just kind of giving up except for making a salary. And then maybe you pursue your

00:52:59.020 interest on the weekends. You can always bring your interests into your work. And, and then that makes

00:53:05.020 work something that you love and you learn more and more and, and, and you become among the best at

00:53:11.000 what you're doing because you're in multiple lanes, learning how to combine them, learning the nuances

00:53:16.400 and so on. Well, you also give yourselves more, yourself more opportunity because, uh, well,

00:53:22.740 I think the example you used was Jesse Itzler in, in the book. And you talked about him writing rap

00:53:29.080 songs and wanting to perform, but that wasn't working out. And then he started, uh, if I understand

00:53:34.220 correctly, writing songs for sports teams and, and then he now, now he owns a team, right? So

00:53:40.060 yeah, you can get yourself into a world that you're interested in a non-traditional route.

00:53:45.040 Maybe that route's not working, but you could still be very close to that world.

00:53:49.380 If you're willing to experiment and look at different veins and different avenues to get there.

00:53:53.960 Yeah, absolutely. Uh, uh, Jesse Itzler is a great example. Like he was never going to be

00:53:59.240 a world famous professional rapper, but by being in the top 1% of all rappers and understanding

00:54:08.320 business and sports, he was able to approach football teams, baseball teams, whatever,

00:54:14.460 and say, listen, I run a company that makes nifty hip hop songs, uh, about your team and you could play

00:54:23.660 it and the fans will cheer and you know, they'll have a fun time and they'll buy more tickets and so on.

00:54:28.340 And so he did it for basically every sports team and sold the company for millions. It's like he

00:54:32.880 invented a field that didn't exist before by combining his interest in music and sports and

00:54:38.560 boom. And then like you say, now he, he, you know, he's made enough money and, and his wife has made

00:54:43.760 enough money that, that they, they own the Atlanta Hawks. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's pretty incredible.

00:54:49.740 You know, when, when you talk about all these ideas and these experiments, I know one thing that

00:54:53.760 you do as a daily practice is writing down as many ideas. I think it's 10. I think

00:54:58.240 you said every day that you come up with, my question is, is if you're encouraging other

00:55:03.020 people to do this and they're doing this, how do you know which ideas are worth pursuing and

00:55:08.260 which ones aren't? Because clearly you can't do all of them. So how do you decide to choose one

00:55:14.900 or a handful? Like if you write 10 ideas. So I always think it's important to not stop until you

00:55:19.900 have 10 ideas on the paper. And so people ask me, what kind of ideas are they? Are they ideas for

00:55:24.000 businesses, ideas for books? Maybe it could be ideas for, you know, how Ryan could improve his

00:55:31.500 podcast. It could be ideas for Google. It could be ideas, you know, what are the, what are the

00:55:36.560 TV series from the nineties that, that influenced me the most? That's, those are ideas. Cause that

00:55:43.320 could turn into an, at least an article if I want to. And so, so, so, but then, but, but if you have

00:55:49.640 3,650 ideas a year, what almost all, all of them might be bad. You know, the, the key is to write

00:55:57.440 lots of bad ideas. So it just gets the muscle exercise. Like when you do, um, pushups, there's

00:56:04.500 two things. One is you don't stop when you have one good pushup, you just keep doing it. And not

00:56:10.240 every quality, not the quality of every pushup is, might not be good. You might, none of your pushups

00:56:15.120 might be good at a, you know, from a, a gym coach, a physical trainer's point of view.

00:56:20.900 And you don't even stop when you're tired. That's actually when you keep going, you still need to

00:56:24.720 keep doing it. Right. And it's, it's the same thing with these ideas. Like even now for me,

00:56:29.180 when I'm doing these 10 ideas a day, and I've been doing this for 20 years around idea number seven or

00:56:34.500 eight, like I was doing an idealist this morning and I was churning through it. And I thought I had 10,

00:56:38.940 I counted up, Oh, I only had eight. And it was really hard. Like that's when your brain sweats and

00:56:43.480 really your neurons build in those last two. Otherwise you're, you're not improving the

00:56:48.660 muscle. And, but how do you decide what, what to work on? Well, the next day when you're writing

00:56:53.380 ideas, you might have a slim memory of one of the ideas you wrote the day before. And you might say,

00:56:58.920 huh, that's not, that was a pretty cool idea. Maybe I'll write 10 ways I can execute that idea.

00:57:05.300 Or, you know, let's say, um, you know, I, I have an idea for, let's say the one day I write 10 ideas for

00:57:13.320 thrillers and all the, most of them are bad, but then the next day I think, ah, you know,

00:57:18.020 one of them might be good. Well, maybe I'll write my, on my idea list for that day might be 10 chapter

00:57:23.200 titles for the one idea I liked from the day before. And then I might lose interest in the next

00:57:28.560 day. The idea list is about something completely different. So, I mean, I had, I had, uh, uh,

00:57:34.460 an idea, uh, a week or so ago that I thought was good enough. You know, it was one idea among 10 and it

00:57:42.300 was related to businesses. Uh, and the next day I wrote, it was like a website type of business.

00:57:49.180 And so the next day I wrote, okay, here's the 10 pages and how they would look and what,

00:57:56.080 what they would, uh, you know, how they would look in a database. I'm a programmer at heart. So,

00:58:01.520 so I wrote, and then the next day was 10 ways I can get this done and, and market it and, and,

00:58:09.220 and make money from it. And, you know, you just keep going. Or, or yesterday I was talking to

00:58:13.760 somebody who's has an app, uh, going up in the Apple store. Actually, it just went live yesterday

00:58:19.600 while we were talking. And I was kind of, you know, pushing him a little bit, uh, to come up

00:58:26.780 with more ideas. Like, so he was asking me like, what sort of business model should I, uh, do a free

00:58:31.220 trial or should I charge? And I'm like, well, let's think about it. There's lots of things you could

00:58:35.880 do. You could do a time free trial. You could do a usage free trial. Like if you read three articles,

00:58:41.180 then they have to pay after that. You could do, um, constantly free, but advertising,

00:58:46.960 or you could have people promote themselves. Uh, you know, he had a very specific type of app to

00:58:52.140 help people get more Instagram followers. Well, you could also get Instagram accounts to pay you to

00:58:57.300 show up, uh, on the feeds for all these people who, you know, as complicated as that, but we're just

00:59:03.000 coming up with 10 ideas for, for what sort of business model he could have. My final conclusion

00:59:07.640 will though, was don't even think about business model, just launch, make it free and get as many

00:59:11.980 as users as possible. Then think about business model. So sometimes I'm actually think about too

00:59:16.260 many things in advance. That's what I was going to say. I was going to say, it sounds to me as you're

00:59:20.640 thinking about all these ideas, you're documenting 365 or 3,065, you know, uh, ideas a year.

00:59:27.300 Do people get caught in this idea loop where it's just idea idea. It's like, great. You've got a

00:59:34.740 whole freaking binder of ideas. Like which one of those have you implemented? Oh no. And I'm just

00:59:39.700 thinking about it. Well, okay. Like you got to do something at some point. At some point, if you have,

00:59:44.940 if you have an idea, that's good. Again, you might not have one for years. That's, that's good. Or you

00:59:49.540 might have 10 in one year and you never know what's going to happen. Like I had an idea. I heard a really,

00:59:55.160 um, interesting or an interview on the radio that really, uh, intrigued me. And I thought,

01:00:04.020 oh, the guy who's doing the interview, he did a really good job here. And he said something that

01:00:08.000 really resonated with me. So I wrote him, uh, he, I said, he should take that one thing he said and

01:00:13.920 make it into a book. And my idealist that day was the 10 chapters that would be in that book.

01:00:20.940 And I sent him this list. I don't really know him that well. He was on my podcast once and you know,

01:00:28.180 we don't know each other that well, but I had his email address. So I sent him and I said,

01:00:31.340 specifically, I don't need, if you, if you do this, I don't need to be involved. This is just an idea.

01:00:36.680 You, I said, you should do this for these reasons. And I sent him the outline of the book. And I said,

01:00:41.300 you know, you don't even need to contact me or anything. It's just, this is just my practice of the

01:00:46.060 day. And he wrote back to me instantly. He said, James, this is great. Let the, can you do it with

01:00:51.540 me? And I'm like, no, no, no, let you, this is really for you. Like, this would be great for you.

01:00:57.360 Like it'll, it'll really make your voice in a different arena and, and, and, and so on. But,

01:01:03.000 but we, he said, well, can you at least help me flesh it out a little more? And I said, sure,

01:01:06.840 it's no problem. And so I did that. And then his team got involved and they wanted me to help them

01:01:13.360 pitch it to Amazon and then Amazon bought it. And they wanted me to do the first parts of it.

01:01:19.220 And I, and I said, I'll help you, but my name doesn't need to be involved or anything. I just

01:01:23.300 like helping. And, uh, and ultimately I was doing enough that we had a bestselling audio book,

01:01:30.960 uh, original audibles doing audible originals. We had a bestselling audio audible original that came

01:01:36.860 out in March, uh, uh, because I said, uh, because I made this idea list and sent it to him as an

01:01:43.820 experiment. I send sometimes that never would have happened if I don't write 10 ideas a day down.

01:01:49.580 Well, in the night, what I like about this too, is this is the ultimate measure of adding value to

01:01:55.280 people's lives. Cause I'll have a lot of guys will say, you know, how, how I've been able to get in

01:01:59.000 touch with James and, and Jocko and all these other guys you've had on the podcast. And, and to me,

01:02:03.500 it's just, if I can add value, then I'm going to try to present that value and make it valuable to

01:02:07.940 other people. But so many people say, well, I don't have anything valuable to add. And there's

01:02:13.120 a perfect example of just sending somebody an email saying, here's 10 things that you should do

01:02:17.600 and it turning into something valuable for them. And then also a relationship and opportunity for

01:02:21.960 you as well. Yeah. Like one time, uh, and I do this quite a bit, but one time I sent, um,

01:02:27.740 Amazon in their self-publishing group, I sent them, here's 10, this is like in 2014.

01:02:34.060 Or 2012, I forget what year. And I sent them, here's 10 ideas for how you can improve your,

01:02:39.280 the way you're doing self-publishing. Cause they were just getting into self-publishing then.

01:02:42.840 And they wrote back and it was just kind of an informal note back, you know, the main person

01:02:47.100 wrote back and said, Oh, this is great. Let us know if you're in Seattle at any point. And we'd love to,

01:02:51.980 you know, show you around and show, show you what we're working on. And I wrote back and said,

01:02:55.680 well, it just so happens I'm going to be in Seattle next week. Uh, could I stop by?

01:03:00.100 I had never been to Seattle in my life and I had no plans on going to Seattle,

01:03:04.100 but once Amazon said that the heads of their self-publishing division, I booked a ticket.

01:03:10.240 I'm going to be there. Yeah. And, and, and, and then I got the tour and I got to see

01:03:15.280 all the new products that they hadn't released yet, but they were working on. And then the next

01:03:19.320 time I self-published a book, they were more than happy to help me, you know, figure out how to

01:03:23.260 promote it and all this stuff. So it was all good. Yeah. So many opportunities come from that.

01:03:29.640 And I think that's really what everybody wants is they want the opportunities. And one of the things

01:03:34.600 that really stood out as, as I was listening to your book, uh, was that it's up to you to create

01:03:40.300 the opportunities. It's, it's on you to do it. It's on you to do the exercise. It's on you to take

01:03:46.380 initiative. Nobody's going to think of your ideas for you or even execute on them. You have to do them

01:03:52.240 yourself completely. And you just never know how it's going to help you. You, you never know. And

01:03:59.060 like, again, at the worst cases, it just improves your creativity muscle, which people think, Oh no,

01:04:06.140 I need, I need to be in Paris by the riverbank and in order to paint. Cause that's what inspiration

01:04:12.740 will hit me. No, it won't. You need to just start painting in your closet. And then, then if you get

01:04:19.560 used to, you know, if you practice painting a thousand bad paintings, you'll start to, I mean,

01:04:24.900 Picasso created over 60,000 works of art, but we could maybe, we maybe know three or four of them,

01:04:30.040 like the same thing with Andy Warhol and other great artists or, or Isaac Asimov wrote over 500

01:04:36.840 books. And we know the foundation series and I robot. So you just never, you, you, you, you,

01:04:43.380 it quant, it's a quantity game creativity actually. And you quality builds up as you build the muscle.

01:04:49.320 So one of the things I do, James, is I, cause people will ask me occasionally, you know, Ryan,

01:04:53.760 how do you come up with your podcast topics and the things that you want to address and where do

01:04:57.820 you, your ideas come from? And this is what I do. I think you'd appreciate this. I have just my note

01:05:02.960 pad on my phone and I have all kinds of notes from different taglines to books. I want to read to

01:05:10.580 t-shirt ideas to a group post posts. I want to make in our Facebook group to podcast ideas. Every time I'm,

01:05:18.640 I, I have an idea or maybe something I'm taking notes for this conversation,

01:05:22.680 you'll say something. I'm like, Oh, I actually need to talk about that deeper. And that will

01:05:26.320 become a podcast episode. And I've got thousands and thousands of topics in here. And I probably

01:05:32.360 won't use more than a handful of them, but they're all in there. And I'm never worried about running out

01:05:37.360 of ideas because they're abundant. Well, you know, that's an important thing of never worry about,

01:05:43.140 never worrying about running out of ideas. And a lot of people, a lot of people, like, let's say I tell

01:05:48.880 an idea to a friend of mine and I say, Oh, maybe we should do this. And my friend, let's say my friend

01:05:53.860 says, okay, but don't tell anybody else. We don't want anyone stealing the idea. Like, you know, on the one

01:06:00.560 hand, like they, they might even say this idea is worth millions. Don't tell anybody. So on the one hand,

01:06:06.500 they sound like they have an abundance complex. Like they want to make millions and they think

01:06:10.240 this is a good idea and they're positive enough to want to try it. But actually what they're really

01:06:14.500 expressing is a scarcity complex. They're really saying that they have so few good ideas that when

01:06:20.420 they hear one, don't tell anyone else or people will steal it. Like my philosophy is always to do

01:06:26.620 the exact opposite of that is to share as many ideas as possible. Even tell the ideas I'm working on

01:06:32.120 that I really am spending money and taking seriously because first off, if someone does

01:06:37.960 the idea better than me, power to them. And if someone does the idea equal to me, it forces me to

01:06:43.300 be my best. And chances are anyway, I'm going to not do the idea, even if I talk about it a lot.

01:06:49.860 So I might as well share it. And finally, I know I'm going to have other ideas that are even better

01:06:55.600 in the future because I'm writing ideas all the time. So that's an abundance complex. I know

01:07:02.020 if I need it, I'll always come up with ideas. Now, there was a point recently where I was a

01:07:09.420 little burnt out. And for the first time in like 20 years, I wasn't doing my idea list for a month

01:07:15.180 or two. And it really affected me. My creativity went straight down and it only got back up when I

01:07:22.100 started redoing these idea lists again. And it was very, very important.

01:07:26.820 That's interesting. Well, I know you've been talking about it for a long time and I've heard about it for a

01:07:31.620 long time, but frankly, I've never implemented in my own life outside of, you know, the notes I keep

01:07:35.820 here, but I'm going to start doing that. I'm going to, I'm going to commit to writing out these ideas

01:07:40.900 daily and just see how I feel and see what I can create. I'm really excited about that.

01:07:45.820 Any one of your listeners who writes 10 ideas a day, I would say within two, three weeks, maybe a

01:07:53.180 little more, maybe a little less, they'll actually feel their brain expanding. Like you're literally

01:07:59.380 increasing the connections between neurons in the brain. And then when you start doing what I call

01:08:03.940 idea sex, like, Oh, here's, uh, you know, hip hop and here's sports. What are the 10 ways hip hop and

01:08:12.060 sports can be combined to make a business? Boom. That's idea sex. And you start coming up with ideas

01:08:18.260 like that. One time I did an experiment. I had, uh, I was in a room I had, I was giving a talk. I had

01:08:24.240 everybody write their 10 ideas down and then turn to their neighbor and combine all your ideas with

01:08:31.180 their ideas to come up with a mutual list and idea sex. The ideas were phenomenal that came out of

01:08:36.580 that. I wish I had saved them because now I don't remember really a lot of them, but, uh, they were

01:08:41.480 fascinating. The results. Yeah. I bet they would be. Well, James, I appreciate you. Um, I want to know

01:08:47.860 where we need to direct the guys to learn more about what you're doing, some of these concepts,

01:08:51.320 and of course, pick up the book as well. Yeah. Uh, well the book skipped a line and, uh, if you

01:08:56.680 like it, uh, and I hope you do write a review or, or if you have any questions, you can email me at

01:09:02.660 altucher at gmail.com and hopefully I respond. I'm always terrified when someone tells me, Oh,

01:09:07.880 I emailed you once. Most of the time it's hard for me to respond. I'm not a big emailer, but fortunately

01:09:14.380 every time someone says it to me, they say, Oh, you responded. And I feel really relieved. But, um,

01:09:19.760 what I gathered from the book is that in the next seven years or so, I'll hear back from you on an

01:09:24.740 email I sent seven years earlier. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a good technique too, is I'll go back

01:09:29.440 seven years in my email and I'll respond to somebody as if they had just sent me that email

01:09:34.320 a minute earlier. Like, sure. Let's meet for coffee. How about tomorrow? And they're always like,

01:09:39.760 Whoa, that's the longest response delay I've ever had. So it's always starts off with, you want to,

01:09:46.620 you want to always start things off with a story. Like, so that's like a story. And, you know,

01:09:51.740 I also, I take, I, I write all my notes and idealists on waiter's pads. So when I go to a

01:09:57.160 meeting, people, people are with their moleskin, a, you know, $200 notebooks and their Montblanc pens,

01:10:04.180 and I'll have a pencil and a waiter's pad and someone will, you know, becomes a story. Why do you

01:10:09.800 have a waiter's pad? And it's not like an, it's not like an affectation, like, Oh, I'm gonna,

01:10:16.060 you know, wear, wear glasses or whatever, but it's just enough that it creates a story. And

01:10:21.660 there's legit reasons why I do the things that I do. Well, I think there's a good point there in,

01:10:27.580 in, in the idea of being interesting, right? I think it is important that we learn yes,

01:10:33.380 how to be interested in others, but also how to be interesting. It's much more fulfilling and

01:10:37.740 rewarding and profitable in your life, whether it's romantic relationships or business opportunities,

01:10:43.120 if you're a more well-rounded, interesting person. Well, and I'll, I'll, I'll add to that

01:10:49.260 real quickly. Uh, one final story. I, it's better to be the only than to be the best. So, um, I had

01:10:56.780 one of my daughters applied to all of her favorite colleges a year, a couple of years ago, and she

01:11:03.500 didn't get into them. And I said, okay, why don't you take a year off and do, and I suggested some

01:11:11.400 categories, do some interesting things that you wouldn't be able to do if you had been going to

01:11:15.060 college. So one thing she did was, uh, which we, we set my wife and I, we set her up with this. We

01:11:19.980 called around, we found the right place. We, we, she had race car driving lessons. She got her race car

01:11:25.600 driving license and she participated in an actual professional race. Guess what? She got into every

01:11:31.840 single college she applied to. Oh, wow. And I'm, and I even told her I'm against kids going to

01:11:37.100 college because I think college is a waste of time, but I wanted her to succeed at this thing. She was

01:11:41.960 trying, which is getting into the school she wanted to go to. And she did, but she, same school rejected

01:11:47.820 her the year before every school rejected her the year before. That is a great lesson. That is a really

01:11:53.100 great lesson. Well, James, I appreciate you. Like it started out earlier in the conversation, I've been

01:11:57.740 following you for years and to be able to have this conversation has been a real honor. Um, keep up

01:12:01.800 the great work. I'm excited to get this out to the guys because, uh, people are going to be inspired

01:12:05.500 by what you're doing and it's going to lead them to take action, which is what we want and what they

01:12:09.760 want as well. I hope so, Ryan. And thanks a lot for having me on the podcast. Thanks for thinking

01:12:13.620 of me for this. Thank you, brother. All right, gents, there you go. My conversation with the one and

01:12:19.380 only and very interesting James Altucher. I hope that you enjoyed that conversation and maybe it caused

01:12:24.520 you to think a little differently about, uh, how you are approaching your own life. Are you standing in

01:12:31.060 line? Are you able to skip the line? Are you able to take non-conventional routes? Are you

01:12:35.400 experimenting with what works and what doesn't in order to propel you forward even faster? Uh, I'd

01:12:41.540 highly, highly recommend his new book, skip the line. Uh, I listened to this book and read part of

01:12:46.700 it as I was preparing for this conversation, uh, very practical, uh, book that I think if you apply

01:12:54.260 these little strategies and you do them consistently and you apply them together,

01:12:59.500 you're going to notice some huge acceleration in your life. So, uh, connect with James. I think

01:13:05.500 it's at Altucher, A L T U C H E R at Altucher on Instagram. Of course, connect with me on Instagram

01:13:12.000 as well at Ryan Mickler. That's M I C H L E R. Uh, and somebody had mentioned to me the other day,

01:13:19.060 you actually have the type in the whole thing at Ryan Mickler. It really doesn't show you the result

01:13:23.320 until the last letter, the letter R in my last name. So maybe a bit of a shadow banning going on.

01:13:30.340 I'm not going to use that as an excuse or play the victim game. All I'm saying is that, uh, we need

01:13:35.260 to actually be active and proactive about sharing this information. Cause I think the, the powers that

01:13:41.340 would be don't like us talking about strong, rugged, individualistic masculinity. And that's exactly

01:13:48.600 what we do here. So again, drop James a message on Instagram. Let them know you heard them here

01:13:53.720 on the order of man podcast. Drop me a message. Let me know what you liked, read the book, do all

01:13:58.340 the things, do the battle ready program, check out the iron council, order of man.com slash iron

01:14:02.880 council, and leave those ratings and reviews. You have your marching orders. Gentlemen, we will see

01:14:08.760 you later this week. Until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:14:14.440 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be

01:14:19.500 more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - June 29, 2021

JAMES ALTUCHER ｜ How to Skip the Line and Get Ahead Faster

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