Order of Man - JAMES SWANWICK ｜ How to Break Your Alcohol Addiction For Good

00:00:00.220 It's been said that alcohol is the only drug that if you don't take it, people think something is wrong with you.

00:00:06.500 And I know firsthand what it's like for alcohol use and abuse to take root in your life.

00:00:12.440 My guest today, James Swanick, makes the case that there is nothing good that comes from drinking alcohol, even in moderation or on occasion.

00:00:20.840 Today we talk about how quickly it can compromise your quality of life, your production, and your relationships.

00:00:26.140 Why he views alcohol as nothing more than attractively packaged poison, how you can adopt the alcohol-free lifestyle, the importance of addressing the internal root of addiction, and how facing your own insecurities, although uncomfortable, can help you crack the code.

00:00:44.440 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:49.940 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:54.660 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:59.720 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.

00:01:03.940 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:08.880 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. I am Ryan Mickler.

00:01:15.520 Coming up this week, or I don't know the date actually, as of the release of this podcast, but on March 15th, so we're right around there, we are hitting our 10-year anniversary.

00:01:26.480 So I want to thank you for tuning in, whether it's been 10 minutes or 10 days or 10 years, it's you guys that make this mission so important and impactful.

00:01:35.820 Literally millions of people around the world at this point, all embracing the protect, provide, preside mantra and motto and lifestyle, and we're doing good work to serve our families and our communities.

00:01:49.140 I think this work is more important, maybe, than it's ever been.

00:01:52.440 I certainly didn't think that it would be as relevant as it has been, or that it would become increasingly relevant as we continue to have these conversations.

00:02:00.120 So, happy to be at the forefront of the movement to reclaim and restore masculinity, and that's in large part to you guys tuning in each and every week.

00:02:08.240 And to that point, that's what this podcast is about, giving you all the tools and resources that you need to thrive in your life.

00:02:15.220 Now, I've got a good one lined up for you today that probably has impacted just about everybody who's listened.

00:02:20.620 It certainly has for me, and I've been very public about my struggles in the past with alcohol abuse and addiction.

00:02:27.440 And so, I thought that this would be a good conversation, as I know, through the DMs and messages that I get, a lot of men are struggling with the same thing.

00:02:36.960 So, we'll get into that in just a minute.

00:02:38.700 Before I do, just want to mention my good friends over at Montana Knife Company.

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00:03:14.740 That's MontanaKnifeCompany.com.

00:03:17.740 All right, let me introduce you to my guest.

00:03:20.080 James Swanick is an entrepreneur.

00:03:22.180 He's a speaker.

00:03:23.240 He's a health advocate, really dedicated to helping men unlock their full potential.

00:03:27.400 And as the founder of Swanick Sleep and also the creator of the Alcohol-Free Lifestyle Program, he has empowered thousands of men to take control of their health, their mindset, and their productivity.

00:03:39.480 He's also a former ESPN SportsCenter anchor, but he transitioned from the world of journalism to coaching, really emphasized on the power of habits and sleep and this alcohol-free lifestyle.

00:03:52.920 His work has been featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur, and also the New York Times.

00:03:57.840 And he's interviewed some of the world's most influential leaders and thinkers through his coaching programs, his content.

00:04:04.680 James equips men with tools to optimize their energy, confidence, and leadership, which obviously is very much in alignment with the Order of Man ethos.

00:04:13.500 Enjoy this one, gents.

00:04:14.180 I think this is such an important conversation, and it's one that I'm not sure if you know my story, but I actually got deep into the throes of alcohol abuse, which kind of peaked about two and a half years ago at this point.

00:04:30.560 And it was amazing how quickly I slipped into it.

00:04:35.200 I shouldn't say slipped.

00:04:36.160 That's probably not the best.

00:04:37.840 That's probably not accurate.

00:04:39.100 I don't think it does – I don't think it's taking as much responsibility as I should have.

00:04:45.240 I'll say it that way.

00:04:46.580 Got it.

00:04:47.040 But it was a challenge, man.

00:04:48.380 It was a real challenge.

00:04:49.280 I know a lot of guys are dealing with this.

00:04:51.040 How are you doing now?

00:04:53.000 Oh, great.

00:04:54.140 Yeah, great.

00:04:55.520 Unfortunately, something catastrophic needed to happen for me to get to that point and ended up with leading to a divorce and the breakdown of a marriage that was 18 years.

00:05:04.460 So, you know, I think one of the questions a lot of guys have is does it need to become catastrophic before we start to change?

00:05:13.620 It definitely doesn't.

00:05:14.880 And I would submit that millions of guys are walking around and the alcohol that they are consuming is compromising their quality of life, but they are either unconscious to it or they're conscious to it and they convince themselves that it's not that big of a deal.

00:05:34.820 And so they procrastinate on making a choice about it.

00:05:38.400 They numb themselves with the alcohol, convincing themselves that two or three drinks a night isn't that bad.

00:05:45.480 And it's not like they're waking up in a ditch.

00:05:47.760 It's not like they're getting a DUI.

00:05:49.360 It's not like they're getting arrested.

00:05:51.320 And so therefore, my alcohol consumption is socially acceptable.

00:05:55.400 It's fine.

00:05:56.560 The reality is, is that we know that alcohol is attractively packaged poison.

00:06:01.520 And if we're just a little bit irritable in the morning, that shows up where we snap at our wife or our husband, we're not as present with our children.

00:06:11.340 It compromises our business and career.

00:06:14.420 We're operating at about a six out of 10 instead of an eight or a nine out of 10.

00:06:18.580 That can mean a loss of income.

00:06:20.160 That can mean we don't generate hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars in our business because we didn't make that additional call or we didn't have that strategy.

00:06:27.900 So it doesn't have to get to rock bottom like it sounds like you may have experienced to some degree, Ryan, in order for alcohol to be severely compromising our lives.

00:06:39.500 It was, to your point, it was amazing to me that when I stopped drinking, I would say probably within a matter of a week and a half to two weeks, I started to question, not question, but I was surprised.

00:06:58.860 I was amazed at how much time I recaptured through the day.

00:07:03.560 I was done by noon with all of my quote unquote normal work.

00:07:07.060 That was my drunk level of work and I was done and I'm like, well, what do I do now?

00:07:12.980 And I started doing projects around the house and started, you know, fulfilling commitments that I had made personally and professionally and the income started to elevate.

00:07:21.560 But it was amazing how much time I lost that I just was not even aware of and the energy level with it as well.

00:07:30.720 Yeah, most of us are drinking a seemingly innocent drink or two at nighttime and we go to sleep and that compromises the quality of our sleep.

00:07:39.800 We don't spend as long in that deep REM restorative phase of sleep.

00:07:43.900 We're essentially clocking in for a night's work when we have any amount of alcohol close to bedtime, but we don't want the body to be working during the night.

00:07:52.760 We want the body to be resting.

00:07:54.620 And so what happens is we show up the next morning, irritable, frustrated, sluggish, sloppy.

00:08:00.940 And so what do we do?

00:08:02.620 We then try to get ourselves a little pick-me-up.

00:08:05.500 We reach for a sugary croissant or a bagel.

00:08:08.660 We put some cream in our coffee.

00:08:10.620 We drink a Gatorade.

00:08:12.240 We have a Kit Kat chocolate bar just to kind of get an energy boost.

00:08:16.680 And then, of course, that puts in really crappy calories.

00:08:19.480 And then we have a sugar spike and then a crash.

00:08:22.540 And then we're tired and lethargic.

00:08:24.380 And now we don't make great choices throughout the day in our business or in our career.

00:08:29.560 And we get sloppy. 0.94

00:08:31.180 And now we're operating at a 6 or 7 out of 10, dragging our ass, looking forward to 5 or 6 o'clock when we can drink another glass of attractively packaged poison to try and give us some illusionary relief. 0.93

00:08:45.080 And then what does that do? 0.92

00:08:46.860 It creates more stress, more anxiety, more poor night's sleep.

00:08:50.660 And then the perpetual vicious cycle continues.

00:08:53.320 And so, yes, the experience of folks who finally figure out how to quit alcohol and stay quit buy back so much time, so much clarity, focus, energy, so they can be more connected to their wife or their husband, more connected to their children, make better strategic choices in their career.

00:09:12.920 What do you say to the guy?

00:09:15.760 And this is one thing I often hear because I've been fairly public about the struggles that I had.

00:09:20.820 And inevitably, I met with a litany of guys who say, well, you know, if you can't have one drink and can control yourself, you know, you're not a man or that's the problem or these types of things.

00:09:32.120 And I know these are individuals who like to have a drink or like to unwind or like to relax.

00:09:37.560 And I don't, I mean, do what you want.

00:09:40.920 For me personally, I've decided I'm not going to drink at all.

00:09:44.100 But what do you say to these individuals?

00:09:47.540 Well, I would say to the people who are encouraging their friends to drink when their friends don't want to, grow up.

00:09:54.480 Literally.

00:09:54.820 Well, they're not friends.

00:09:55.460 These are social media people.

00:09:56.640 So I just want to be clear because sometimes the two get conflated and I have friends and I have followers and those are different.

00:10:02.840 Yeah.

00:10:03.220 Look, respect anyone's choice, whether they're drinking alcohol or they're not drinking alcohol.

00:10:09.600 Stop trying to encourage people to man up and have a drink.

00:10:12.840 It is a lazy, lazy, lazy argument.

00:10:15.680 Okay.

00:10:16.320 The reality is this.

00:10:17.460 No amount of alcohol is good for us.

00:10:19.440 There is a cultural change that is going on now.

00:10:21.940 Okay.

00:10:22.240 And increasingly, people are turning their backs on alcohol.

00:10:27.000 Here's what I would suggest.

00:10:28.600 Or here's what I would submit.

00:10:30.280 We do not need alcohol to create camaraderie.

00:10:33.380 We don't need alcohol to have a good time.

00:10:35.660 We don't need alcohol to create a bond between a whole bunch of guys.

00:10:39.020 We don't need alcohol to watch the Super Bowl.

00:10:41.760 We can just create a bond without the alcohol.

00:10:44.340 We can watch the Super Bowl without the alcohol.

00:10:46.200 We can create romance without the alcohol.

00:10:48.520 We can do it.

00:10:49.480 It's just laziness if we're thinking that we can't or we don't even attempt it.

00:10:55.120 And so when you have chosen to go alcohol-free, I see a lot of people mistakenly going into

00:11:03.120 social situations like this.

00:11:04.860 Oh, yeah.

00:11:05.480 Sorry.

00:11:05.800 No, I can't drink.

00:11:06.600 Oh, no.

00:11:07.400 I'm sober.

00:11:08.340 Oh, I wish I could.

00:11:09.160 But I'm doing this 30-day challenge.

00:11:10.740 And oh, no, no.

00:11:12.340 Sorry.

00:11:12.720 Yeah.

00:11:12.840 I wish I could have a drink.

00:11:13.760 And so what you're doing in that situation is that you are unconsciously and consciously

00:11:18.060 telling yourself that not drinking equals pain and deprivation and drinking equals fun.

00:11:24.320 I submit it's the other way around.

00:11:26.720 Not drinking is fun and drinking is pain.

00:11:30.820 Now, I get why we feel it's the other way because there are smiling assassins all throughout

00:11:35.400 society.

00:11:36.120 And a smiling assassin is anyone who's smiling as they offer you a drink.

00:11:39.360 It's the waiter or the waitress who says, hi, Ryan, can I get you started with a drink?

00:11:42.780 Would you like a glass of wine?

00:11:44.620 Can I get you something from the drinks menu?

00:11:46.460 And Ryan, if you're being very hospitable and you've got friends coming over to your

00:11:49.880 house, you want to be a great host, of course.

00:11:52.340 And so you'll say, hey, James, can I get you a wine?

00:11:54.300 Can I get you a beer?

00:11:54.960 What can I get you?

00:11:55.580 And you're smiling as you offer me this attractively packaged poison.

00:11:59.680 And so, of course, we all walk around associating alcohol with pleasure and fun and joy and

00:12:06.220 connection.

00:12:07.320 And we've been doing it for hundreds of years, but not anymore.

00:12:12.240 It's 2025.

00:12:13.440 We're putting a stop to it.

00:12:14.780 And the reality is, is that you can be hospitable without offering me poison.

00:12:19.900 You can go to a restaurant in the bar, walk up confidently and order a soda, water, ice

00:12:24.600 and a piece of lime with a big smile on your face.

00:12:26.700 You can make fun of yourself for being alcohol free.

00:12:29.580 And your friends who are drinking won't care.

00:12:31.600 They'll laugh along with you and go, okay.

00:12:33.340 And now everyone can just relax and have a good time.

00:12:36.460 Yeah, I've heard that alcohol is the only drug or poison, essentially, that if you don't

00:12:43.560 consume it, people think something's wrong with you.

00:12:46.520 Well, it's the only drug where you have to justify not consuming it.

00:12:49.540 Let that think of it.

00:12:51.080 And that's, right.

00:12:53.000 It is kind of, it really is interesting.

00:12:57.000 Or oftentimes, I think people, and I haven't personally experienced this, but others that

00:13:02.940 I've heard from say, if they tell their friends, you know, I don't drink, then their friends

00:13:07.860 automatically assume, oh, that's an alcoholic.

00:13:10.360 Yeah.

00:13:11.220 Or that's somebody dealing with something that they can't control themselves.

00:13:14.280 And that might be true, but I don't think it's exclusively true or universally true.

00:13:20.040 Yeah.

00:13:20.340 I have a lot of members who go through our 90-day stop drinking process.

00:13:23.760 And I talk about this in my book, Clear, which is people have this fear that if they

00:13:28.880 stop drinking and they communicate that to people, that people are going to automatically

00:13:33.360 think, oh, he's got a drinking problem.

00:13:35.040 Oh, he must be an alcoholic.

00:13:37.180 And so that prevents them from stopping drinking in the first place because they have this fear

00:13:41.560 of being ostracized from the group or being judged.

00:13:44.760 The reality is, is that nobody cares if you drink or not.

00:13:47.960 They just care if you are pleasant to be around.

00:13:50.500 And if you are fun and you are open and engaging while choosing to be alcohol free, you can have

00:13:58.020 the most fun, be the most engaging.

00:14:00.260 And people will just respond to that and go, okay, great.

00:14:03.440 And secretly, probably the people encouraging you to have a drink probably wish that they could

00:14:09.700 either reduce their alcohol consumption or quit entirely themselves.

00:14:13.440 And they're looking at you with admiration.

00:14:17.320 You know, we often hear as alcohol being this quote unquote social lubricant.

00:14:22.760 What kind of conversations are you having with individuals who would tell themselves they're

00:14:28.460 more introverted or maybe they feel a little bit more uptight in social settings and they

00:14:34.000 use alcohol as a social lubricant to allow themselves to, like you said, enjoy the experience, let

00:14:40.100 down their guard a little bit, maybe potentially be, at least in their eyes, a little more pleasant,

00:14:44.920 et cetera, et cetera.

00:14:46.360 I'm aware that there are millions of introverts out there who are doing that.

00:14:49.740 But the consequences of drinking poison to try to relax a little bit are dire.

00:14:55.540 Sure, it gives you short term confidence, maybe, maybe it relaxes you in the short term.

00:15:02.420 But the long term consequences is like death by a thousand cuts.

00:15:08.620 There was a study out of the UK in 2022, which showed that even one seemingly innocent drink

00:15:14.480 per night was enough to cause some level of gray and white matter brain degeneration.

00:15:20.580 Now, that should be a wake up call for everyone, just one standard.

00:15:24.160 And those claims that came out in the 80s, that a glass of wine a day was good for your

00:15:30.480 heart health have been debunked so many times over the last three decades.

00:15:35.280 I was actually going to ask you about that.

00:15:36.800 I didn't know that.

00:15:37.760 Yeah.

00:15:38.180 In fact, there was a study that came out in 2022 from a professor, Tim Stockwell, at the

00:15:43.060 University of Victoria in Canada.

00:15:45.440 And he studied 107 previously published studies on alcohol involving almost 5 million study

00:15:53.180 participants, okay?

00:15:54.760 And what he found was that the studies claiming that alcohol was good for your heart were either

00:16:01.080 skewed or biased.

00:16:03.160 And as he dug in a little further, he realized that the people who were funding these studies

00:16:07.340 had ties to the alcohol industry and to alcohol organizations.

00:16:11.720 So let that be a wake up call.

00:16:13.420 There was also a very famous 60 Minutes television show episode back in 1991.

00:16:20.380 And in that episode, which was watched by 33 million Americans, this is way before, you

00:16:25.640 know, cable TV and the internet was the main thing where people actually watched the news.

00:16:30.840 33 million people watched this episode where a French scientist who also owned a vineyard claimed

00:16:38.620 that alcohol could be good for the heart.

00:16:41.400 And the 60 Minutes journalist, his name was Morley Schaefer, at the end of this segment,

00:16:45.860 he poured a glass of wine and held it up to the camera and said, so the secret to longevity

00:16:51.000 and eternal youth might be in this glass.

00:16:53.280 Cheers.

00:16:53.680 And then he drank from it.

00:16:54.560 The very next day, red wine sales spiked by 40%.

00:17:00.200 American Airlines reportedly all sold out of red wine because all the passengers were ordering

00:17:05.380 it. And over the next two years, alcohol sales or red wine sales rose by 38%.

00:17:12.400 That is incredible.

00:17:13.800 It was almost like the whole of American society was like, yes, we've got the evidence.

00:17:18.240 Find the permission slip.

00:17:19.560 We've got my permission slip.

00:17:21.380 Let me drink this poison.

00:17:22.940 I kind of know deep down that it's not good for me, but now I've got this proof that it is.

00:17:27.880 So yeah, let's go to town.

00:17:29.420 And of course, that's created devastating effects over the past three or four decades.

00:17:33.300 It is interesting when you start to look at where these studies are coming from, who's

00:17:38.040 performing these studies, what the interests are and the conflicts of interest are.

00:17:43.180 It's a shame though, that we can't look at studies, whether it relates to this or other

00:17:47.440 facets of life without being incredibly skeptical about the credibility of said research and study.

00:17:58.440 Yeah, that's the world that we live in, sadly.

00:18:00.720 Honestly, I've been researching alcohol now for 10 years.

00:18:05.080 I've been alcohol free since 2010.

00:18:07.380 Not one drink since 2010.

00:18:09.320 So I'm well researched on this.

00:18:11.460 And I can say with great conviction, there is so much bias and so much influence from big

00:18:19.220 alcohol.

00:18:20.040 And that's the liquor companies, organizations, foundations, they try to get board seats. 0.55

00:18:25.240 They try to influence the studies.

00:18:27.100 It is astounding.

00:18:28.080 Here's the reality in my research.

00:18:31.660 No amount of alcohol is good for us.

00:18:33.820 We know this deep down, okay?

00:18:36.800 And yet, we polish, we slant, we change, we shift, we involve ourselves in these studies.

00:18:46.280 And we try to like create this perception that it could be good for us.

00:18:49.500 And then we cling on to this idea that it's good for us.

00:18:53.440 And we go ahead drinking it.

00:18:55.920 But what I submit is, why are we trying to cling on to this thing?

00:19:00.340 Most of the time, it doesn't taste that good.

00:19:02.320 When we first had our sip, when we first had a sip of alcohol back when we were a kid,

00:19:07.140 we probably went, ooh, and spat it out.

00:19:09.260 So it's an acquired taste.

00:19:11.320 But what has been acquired is this cultural conditioning of good times while we're drinking

00:19:17.340 it.

00:19:17.920 And it's necessary to entertain clients.

00:19:21.080 It's necessary to watch the NFL playoffs.

00:19:25.720 It's necessary to create connection amongst friends.

00:19:29.540 But it's not.

00:19:33.200 It's not.

00:19:34.020 We just remove the alcohol.

00:19:35.540 We learn how to be engaging.

00:19:36.820 We learn how to have fun.

00:19:38.600 And suddenly, we get to live life the way that nature intended us to live, which is without

00:19:44.280 intentionally drinking poison.

00:19:49.220 Do you feel like there's, I know that, well, I don't know, actually.

00:19:54.060 Let me ask you.

00:19:55.020 I assumed, and I think I know, that there's certain individuals who have a more challenging

00:20:04.880 response biologically to alcohol, whether it's the way that it affects their brain or

00:20:10.680 their heart or their system, whatever it might be.

00:20:12.780 And I want to talk with you about that.

00:20:14.620 Is that, first of all, is that true?

00:20:16.100 Are there certain people who are more chemically designed that it's going to impact them greater

00:20:22.700 than other people?

00:20:23.400 Well, the answer is yes.

00:20:26.100 And from what we know about the study of what's called epigenetics, for most of those folks,

00:20:32.560 we can change that genetic expression through lifestyle and environment.

00:20:38.560 So let me just back up a little bit.

00:20:41.940 If alcohol abuse runs in the family, let's just say a father, an uncle, an aunt, a grandmother

00:20:47.780 had an alcohol use disorder.

00:20:49.580 According to the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, you have a 50% increased

00:20:56.400 chance of also experiencing an alcohol use disorder.

00:21:01.000 Okay?

00:21:01.320 So that is true.

00:21:02.140 There is a genetic increase.

00:21:04.140 I mean, but what you said doesn't fully explain.

00:21:08.220 So I, because that could just be based on what you observed as a child.

00:21:13.700 And so you just assume that's correct behavior.

00:21:16.460 And so you're just mimicking, excuse me, behavior, not necessarily genetics.

00:21:22.060 So is there a differentiation between the two?

00:21:24.440 Yeah.

00:21:24.680 Some people are using that as a reason for their drinking.

00:21:27.940 Oh, my dad was an alcoholic.

00:21:29.040 So it runs in the family.

00:21:30.120 And that's why I'm drinking and not actually, don't actually have the genetic predisposition

00:21:35.480 to alcohol.

00:21:36.520 And so they're just blaming it on their genetics, their father, their grandfather.

00:21:40.340 Then, of course, there are people who do have an expression of gene where any amount of alcohol

00:21:46.120 will set them off the rails, more so than someone who doesn't have that.

00:21:50.180 However, from what we now understand about epigenetics, we can take people who, let's just say, for

00:21:59.280 the sake of this argument, have that genetic predisposition to being affected by alcohol

00:22:05.780 more than someone else.

00:22:07.260 We can now have them do healthy things, focus on their sleep.

00:22:13.300 We can have them expose themselves to morning sunlight.

00:22:16.580 We can have them practice appreciation instead of expectation.

00:22:20.480 We can put them in a community of like-minded people who are committed to their growth, conscious

00:22:25.340 communication, put them in a gym with six guys who've got six packs for 90 days.

00:22:32.960 Nutritionists, put them in a new environment where people support their choice to be alcohol

00:22:38.460 free and to get the body that nature intended and to exercise and to eat well.

00:22:42.560 And the expression of their genes will change.

00:22:46.000 In other words, you can literally stop this genetic predisposition to alcohol by simply

00:22:54.420 changing your habits, lifestyle, and your environment.

00:22:59.020 Now, you can't change your genetic code, but you can change the expression of those genes.

00:23:05.520 And that comes in through lifestyle and environment.

00:23:08.060 Uh, let's see.

00:23:11.340 So James Clear, Charles Duhigg talk about habits, right?

00:23:16.940 And how, how, how you can overcome certain habits.

00:23:20.380 And I guess my question is with regards to alcohol use, I'm sure it just becomes habitual at some

00:23:28.100 point.

00:23:28.400 And what I'm hearing you say, when you change the expression of those genetics, what you're

00:23:33.080 saying is you're changing the response to a feeling of wanting to have a drink or wanting

00:23:40.200 to have multiple drinks.

00:23:41.300 Is that what you're saying?

00:23:42.880 Yes.

00:23:43.280 And that comes from changing your habits, just like Chelsea Duhigg from The Power of Habit 1.00

00:23:47.460 and James Clear from Atomic Habits.

00:23:49.140 Yes.

00:23:49.400 So if you change your habits, you can change the expression of your genes, which now reduces

00:23:56.740 or eliminates cravings for alcohol, which then changes the expression of your genes, which

00:24:01.800 then means that if you have children later on, the likelihood that they will have a genetic

00:24:06.660 predisposition to alcohol use disorder will either be significantly, significantly reduced

00:24:12.700 or extinguished entirely.

00:24:15.060 What is the genetic predisposition?

00:24:17.520 How does that manifest?

00:24:18.440 Is that, that you are just more, you have a deeper craving of it.

00:24:22.960 Does that mean that your body reacts as if it's more potent than somebody else?

00:24:28.420 What is the actual genetic expression, the default genetic predisposition to alcohol abuse?

00:24:34.680 Well, one of the biggest receptors in our brain is called dopamine.

00:24:39.480 And so when someone who has a predisposition to alcohol drinks alcohol, the dopamine receptors

00:24:45.660 are so sensitive that they light up like the 4th of July.

00:24:49.580 It's literally like fireworks going off.

00:24:52.720 And so someone else who doesn't have that genetic predisposition might drink and it might

00:24:57.800 just be like a little kid's playground by comparison, right?

00:25:00.940 They're not having these huge big fireworks displays, but the dopamine receptors certainly

00:25:04.640 they're triggered, but they're not going off to the degree that someone with a genetic

00:25:08.740 predisposition to alcohol has.

00:25:11.720 And then of course, what happens over time is that the dopamine receptors then get dulled

00:25:17.640 because of excessive use.

00:25:18.980 And so now that person requires more alcohol to be able to get the same 4th of July response.

00:25:26.060 And so that's when they get stuck in this cycle of like, I need a drink, I have to have

00:25:29.880 a drink, then they experience pain, depression, stress, anxiety, they need a drink to try to

00:25:36.060 get the dopamine being released and firing off.

00:25:38.900 But because it's been dulled over many years of use, now all of a sudden they need to drink

00:25:43.480 more, drink more, drink more.

00:25:44.960 And then this becomes just a horrific perpetual cycle.

00:25:48.860 What we do at Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, where we help high achievers to rewire their mindset

00:25:56.120 around alcohol is we help folks to get their dopamine receptors firing off through holistic

00:26:03.080 activities and things like exercise, sunlight, considering yourself a professional sleeper,

00:26:10.320 practicing gratitude, journaling, conscious communication, being growth-minded, being around

00:26:16.000 positive, empowering people, as opposed to people who are constantly bringing you down.

00:26:20.780 And what they've found is that your dopamine receptors can return to a more, let's say,

00:26:27.000 base level of efficiency, whereby suddenly instead of chasing pleasure in the moment, in the short

00:26:35.080 term, now we experience this fulfillment, which is like a slow release of the dopamine over

00:26:41.200 time.

00:26:41.660 And now we have a much more measured life.

00:26:43.520 I mean, I personally experienced that when I stopped drinking so heavily in a couple, two

00:26:50.060 and a half years or so ago, is just stepping outside and walking around the yard or going

00:26:57.440 on a drive or having a podcast with somebody like yourself.

00:27:01.860 Like everything seemed to become a little bit more vibrant, a little bit more alive instead

00:27:07.700 of this like dull existence.

00:27:09.160 And the only way that I was hitting whatever I needed was through having a drink.

00:27:14.120 Yeah.

00:27:14.880 Well, I would submit you're experiencing fulfillment there.

00:27:18.380 It's like the slow release of the many pleasurable things in your life.

00:27:23.360 It's not chasing short-term pleasure like you're going somewhere and you get a two-hour hit and

00:27:28.840 then a crash.

00:27:29.540 It's looking back and going, wow, look at what I'm doing.

00:27:34.620 I'm living a good life here.

00:27:37.120 I've got my family.

00:27:38.100 I've got this podcast.

00:27:39.360 I'm growing.

00:27:41.060 You know, Tony Robbins, he talks about these things called the six human needs.

00:27:45.120 And he talks about if the six human needs are met, we have a great life.

00:27:51.020 We feel fulfilled.

00:27:52.020 And the needs are certainty.

00:27:54.100 We need some level of certainty.

00:27:55.820 Uncertainty.

00:27:56.360 We want a little bit of uncertainty and variety in life.

00:27:59.620 Growth.

00:28:00.360 Are we growing?

00:28:01.360 Like are we stretching?

00:28:02.740 Love and connection, okay, which is being connected to people.

00:28:07.100 Significance, which is do people admire us and, you know, do we feel significant in our

00:28:11.800 community?

00:28:12.840 And then contribution, which is am I contributing to society and helping people?

00:28:18.400 And I would submit you are, Ryan, because you have this amazing podcast.

00:28:21.420 You're interviewing guests.

00:28:23.360 You're putting it out.

00:28:24.000 You're supporting people.

00:28:25.560 And that's just publicly.

00:28:26.640 I'm sure privately behind closed doors.

00:28:28.500 You're also contributing to your family.

00:28:31.380 And if most-

00:28:32.560 Depends on if I'm mad at my kids or not and what they might say on any given basis, but

00:28:35.920 sure, generally.

00:28:38.260 If most of those six human needs, if not all of them are being met, I would suggest you

00:28:43.240 have a fulfilling life.

00:28:44.980 Most folks who are using alcohol are using it to reduce stress and anxiety or to procrastinate

00:28:50.840 or to numb themselves.

00:28:52.440 And I would suggest if they looked in at those six human needs that probably some or many

00:28:58.340 are missing.

00:28:59.900 And now we're using that alcohol as a crutch.

00:29:02.580 We're using it to numb the pain of being ourselves because we feel lack in our life.

00:29:08.560 And then, of course, we get stuck in this vicious cycle.

00:29:10.680 We convince ourselves that it's fun, that it's no big deal.

00:29:13.900 But really, many of us are walking around using alcohol as a crutch.

00:29:20.580 Matt, I'm just going to step away from the conversation very, very briefly.

00:29:24.680 By now, you know about the event that we have coming up on May 1st through the 4th of this

00:29:30.620 year, 2025, just outside of St. Louis, Missouri.

00:29:33.680 But what you may not know is that we've listened to some feedback and we've decided to change

00:29:38.740 this up a little bit because we want something that's going to be a bit smaller, a more intimate

00:29:43.100 event.

00:29:43.620 That was the feedback we're getting than your typical large-scale conferences.

00:29:47.440 So I'm very excited about it because not only do you have access to all that we already

00:29:52.520 have, it's going to be a lot tighter-knit group of men all working more closely together

00:29:57.500 because we feel like this will help us embrace and adopt the ideas as we go into our everyday

00:30:03.880 life.

00:30:04.220 So if you want to connect and band with like-minded men and a community meant to test and push

00:30:10.000 you forward in all the right ways, this is it.

00:30:13.680 And the best thing about it is that everything from the food, the activities that we're going

00:30:19.120 to be doing together as men, all the lodgings, so the conversations and the speakers that

00:30:23.200 are coming out are completely covered in your ticket.

00:30:25.920 It is a all-inclusive ticket.

00:30:27.800 So all you have to do is get here and then you can band with us and work with us and forge

00:30:32.240 ourselves into the men that we want to become.

00:30:36.200 Go check it out.

00:30:37.000 We have very, very limited spots at this point because of the changes that we're making.

00:30:41.360 So if you want in, you've got a really short timeframe to do it.

00:30:45.840 Head to themensforge.com.

00:30:48.420 That's themensforge.com.

00:30:50.640 Do that right after the show.

00:30:51.760 For now, let's get back to it with James.

00:30:52.960 So then that leads to the question, how do you begin to find fulfillment when you have

00:31:00.360 been using this crutch and sedating yourself with alcohol abuse?

00:31:03.460 Because that's significantly easier in the short term to get the dopamine release, to detach

00:31:09.660 from whatever might be bringing you anxiety.

00:31:13.000 How do you begin to replace that with a level of fulfillment in these six needs you're talking

00:31:17.140 about?

00:31:18.200 It starts with a choice.

00:31:19.740 The choice is you've got to choose to embark upon this journey.

00:31:24.600 Just like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, you know, she started the hero's journey.

00:31:30.380 She didn't want to go on the journey.

00:31:31.720 The tornado came.

00:31:34.500 She found herself in a strange place.

00:31:37.020 She now had to meet people who were scary at first.

00:31:42.020 She had to overcome her own fear.

00:31:43.880 She had to create allies.

00:31:45.180 Then there were more obstacles.

00:31:47.440 Then she had a breakthrough.

00:31:49.120 Then there were more obstacles.

00:31:50.420 Then there was a huge obstacle and she had to level up and rise to a higher standard to

00:31:57.300 be able to finally prevail and get back home.

00:31:59.740 That's the hero's journey.

00:32:00.800 We see it in every Hollywood movie.

00:32:02.260 We see it in every television series.

00:32:04.180 And I always say, pray for a worthy opponent.

00:32:08.020 And the worthy opponent here is alcohol and your alcohol use.

00:32:12.420 Because when you have a worthy opponent, you get to go through that hero's journey and

00:32:16.700 step up and you get to find something from within and attack it.

00:32:21.660 On a more practical level, what I would suggest is once you've made that choice that you're

00:32:26.840 going to go on this journey, surround yourself with like-minded people.

00:32:32.100 Surround yourself with coaches.

00:32:34.120 Surround yourself with people who've already accomplished what it is that you want to accomplish.

00:32:38.100 No Olympic medalist ever won a medal without a coach.

00:32:44.060 Everyone's got coaches.

00:32:45.180 So Michael Jordan had countless coaches.

00:32:47.540 He had a gym coach.

00:32:48.460 He had a mindset coach.

00:32:49.440 He had Phil Jackson, who was his actual coach of the team.

00:32:53.600 So surround yourself with people who are smarter than you and more experienced, who can show

00:33:00.080 you the way.

00:33:01.040 I would put yourselves definitely in a like-minded community.

00:33:04.200 Now, not a community.

00:33:05.140 A community can be going to an AA meeting.

00:33:07.180 Now, I would suggest that AA is not effective.

00:33:09.620 In fact, I've done a lot of studies on this and it shows that AA's actual reported success

00:33:14.760 rate is less than 10% if you judge success over the course of a year of someone being alcohol

00:33:20.060 free.

00:33:20.420 It's definitely helped millions of people, no question.

00:33:23.720 I salute it and I love the mission.

00:33:26.120 However, nine out of 10 people who attempt it don't get to that one year alcohol free

00:33:31.820 success rate, okay?

00:33:33.700 So when I say get yourself in a community, I don't mean a community like AA or I mean a

00:33:40.740 like-minded community.

00:33:41.720 So people that you can relate to who are going along the same journey.

00:33:45.540 You referenced that book, The Power of Habit by Chelsea Duhigg.

00:33:48.360 And in that book, he says, change becomes probable when you put people in a like-minded

00:33:53.400 community with a common goal.

00:33:55.820 That's when it becomes probable.

00:33:58.740 And then it's really educating yourself on healthy habits.

00:34:01.800 How can you reduce your stress and anxiety that's creating these cravings for alcohol

00:34:05.500 in the first place?

00:34:06.360 How can you go into social situations and have the most fun while being alcohol free?

00:34:11.980 What are the things you say to people when they're encouraging you to have a drink?

00:34:15.660 We show you how to do that in the book, Clear.

00:34:18.160 There's a whole chapter on what to say to people in those situations.

00:34:22.620 And let's just stay on that hero's journey and pray for the worthy opponent because you

00:34:27.160 will be called up to a greater level to get there, to get to the end of the road,

00:34:32.500 so to speak.

00:34:34.180 You know, it's interesting because I really appreciate and respect.

00:34:37.880 It's Joseph Campbell, I think, who originally identified the hero's journey.

00:34:42.920 And what's interesting about part of the path is that there's some sort of existential crisis.

00:34:47.880 You know, maybe it's alcohol abuse.

00:34:49.360 Maybe somebody gets a DUI or gets into a car wreck or the breakdown of the marriage like

00:34:55.060 it was in my case.

00:34:56.180 So there's this existential crisis and then by solving or working towards solving and going

00:35:02.360 on this journey, that existential crisis, they actually end up solving the internal

00:35:07.400 crisis, which is not the, the drinking is not the problem.

00:35:11.080 The problem is what led to the drinking, what leads to the behavior.

00:35:15.340 And if you aren't willing to address that, then you're going to replace alcohol with drugs

00:35:21.640 or pornography or other sedation and distraction methods instead of actually solving the internal

00:35:27.040 crisis that's going on.

00:35:28.820 Yes, yes.

00:35:30.360 In my situation, Ryan, I did a lot of, I guess you could call it therapy, but I did a lot of

00:35:36.400 personal development workshops.

00:35:38.200 So I did landmark education.

00:35:40.340 I did some Tony Robbins.

00:35:41.720 I got myself a coach, a mindset coach.

00:35:45.680 I took myself out of environments where I was drinking in a bar with friends and I put myself

00:35:52.360 into a charity where I trained for a half marathon and I raised money for charity so I could try

00:36:00.920 to activate that giving part of me, which had been dulled for many, many years.

00:36:06.440 And, you know, it wasn't always pleasant.

00:36:09.420 I really salute and acknowledge anyone who's willing to go there because when you do the internal

00:36:13.920 work, then everything external starts to get better.

00:36:16.420 But it's often, it often feels very challenging, doesn't it?

00:36:20.660 I'm sure that was the case for you.

00:36:22.520 It kind of feels like maybe you're running through rose bushes and you're getting thorns and

00:36:26.360 you're getting bloodied and you're like trying to get through and you're trying to understand

00:36:29.740 why your mother loved you too much or not enough or why you are envious of people or why you get

00:36:36.760 irritated by certain things when other people don't get irritated by that.

00:36:40.480 But when you get out the other side of those rose bushes and you're all bloodied and you've

00:36:43.640 got thorns, it's kind of like that scene from the Shawshank Redemption movie, you know,

00:36:48.120 where Andy Dufresne climbs through a football field of crap and comes out at the other end

00:36:53.740 and he's like got his victory stance there with the rain coming down and, you know, 0.66

00:36:59.560 the hero's journey, he gets to the other side.

00:37:02.060 What did you do, Ryan?

00:37:03.280 Like what was your hero's journey trying to get through and do that personal development work?

00:37:08.580 Well, I mean, I'm still on it.

00:37:10.180 I don't ever want it to sound as if that I've solved the riddle and the temptations and

00:37:15.460 everything are done and over with, you know, I'm still on that journey.

00:37:17.940 And just like, I think anybody can probably attest to it's been through it, but I think

00:37:21.640 it's a lot of what you said, you know, it's finding purpose, uh, in the work that I do.

00:37:26.500 It's finding purpose and raising my kids and being a good example.

00:37:29.900 Um, I got heavily involved with training and jujitsu and working out, um, a lot more journaling

00:37:37.440 and reflection dedicated on a daily basis to those things.

00:37:41.620 Um, sitting in discomfort and pain of mistakes and past experiences and just letting it just

00:37:50.540 be what it is.

00:37:51.700 Um, there's, there's been a lot to it and there's, there's more to it as well that will

00:37:55.360 come.

00:37:56.440 Yeah.

00:37:56.800 That's the thing.

00:37:57.440 It's even when we think we're at the end of the journey, we're actually still on the

00:38:00.600 journey, aren't we?

00:38:01.400 Cause we're always growing, evolving and changing.

00:38:04.680 Yeah.

00:38:05.400 I do have a question though, um, about, I heard one time, one of my most controversial guests,

00:38:11.720 his name is Wes Watson and I'm paraphrasing, but essentially he had made the comment that

00:38:17.500 being an addict is a superpower and that if you can take that ability to fixate the ability

00:38:26.820 to be focused and, and hyper obsessive on a thing and direct it towards a positive behavior

00:38:33.240 and a positive outcome that you have an advantage over other people who might not have that same

00:38:38.680 type of personality.

00:38:39.520 What, what are your thoughts on something like that?

00:38:41.380 I'm in alignment with that idea in theory.

00:38:43.900 Yeah.

00:38:44.280 I mean, there's a lot of folks that have OCD, ADD, ADHD.

00:38:51.180 The challenge is, can you harness that into positive things?

00:38:55.360 So if you can, I would, I would agree with Wes that that is a superpower.

00:39:02.280 You could look at that as a superpower.

00:39:05.060 And a lot of folks who come to me, they're high achievers, like they are high achievers

00:39:09.140 in their life.

00:39:09.720 They've got multi-million dollar businesses.

00:39:12.080 They've got three kids.

00:39:14.760 They've overachieved.

00:39:16.980 They've married a trophy wife, if you like, like a very beautiful woman, or they've got a, 0.89

00:39:22.880 on the outside, they seemingly have a great marriage.

00:39:25.360 They've succeeded in many areas of their life, but they haven't been able to overcome this

00:39:29.880 one thing, which is alcohol.

00:39:31.500 And then when they do, when they're able to steer that focus away from alcohol onto alcohol-free

00:39:40.280 living, it's amazing how much their businesses explode.

00:39:44.880 They reconnect with their wife.

00:39:47.300 They're more present with their children.

00:39:48.820 Children, they experience phenomenal growth, which was maybe being suppressed because of

00:39:55.580 their alcohol habits.

00:39:56.860 So I'm in alignment with what Wes said.

00:40:01.660 I'm not in alignment with many other things that Wes has said, but in that regard, I subscribe

00:40:07.180 to that theory.

00:40:07.900 I mean, my biggest concern with that, and I think we're, we're an agreement about some

00:40:13.640 of the things that have been said, but, um, my biggest concern with that is, are you just

00:40:19.600 replacing your desire for dopamine or your desire to escape with something that we would

00:40:26.940 generally consider healthier?

00:40:28.420 So for example, if you spend three to four hours at the gym every day, it's no surprise

00:40:33.400 to me that you're going to get fit and strong and big, and you're going to look good, of

00:40:37.000 course, but are you actually doing any work or are you just replacing one addiction with

00:40:43.880 another that we just generally consider healthier?

00:40:48.460 Yeah, it's a great question.

00:40:49.960 I'm not sure I have the answer to that other than to say, let's just say that you do have

00:40:58.740 an addictive personality.

00:41:00.280 There's two ways you can do this to get a favorable outcome, right?

00:41:04.720 You could say, okay, I've got an addictive personality.

00:41:07.380 So now I'm going to put it into my relationship to conscious communication, to growth, to being

00:41:12.800 in the gym three hours, to eating well.

00:41:14.640 And I would submit that that is a hundred times better than the alternative of going

00:41:21.120 deep with alcohol or drugs and suppressing yourself.

00:41:24.820 So in that sense, I would go, okay, but also I would say, why not simultaneously as you're

00:41:29.520 doing that, explore why you have an OCD personality, explore why you're so compulsive, do the work

00:41:39.300 to understand that.

00:41:40.700 So I don't think it's like an, it's a, it's an or, why can't it be an and?

00:41:46.760 Sure, go deep and working out, but try to understand why, what is driving this behavior?

00:41:53.680 Because as, as good as you're going to be in one area, probably for someone who's manic

00:41:58.620 like that, they're going to be neglecting something over here.

00:42:02.480 So the, the perfect outcome I would suggest is funneling that energy, that obsessiveness

00:42:08.720 into health, wealth, love, and happiness, and not compromising any of them.

00:42:15.500 And I think if you can get those four pillars, right, equally health, wealth, love, happiness,

00:42:20.760 then you have a much more measured and much more fulfilling life as opposed to focusing on

00:42:26.460 one and the other three disintegrate.

00:42:28.620 Yeah, I mean, that's, I think that's a really good point.

00:42:31.800 Cause what I've seen, I mean, for every, every man, I don't know, I'm just assuming, but for

00:42:36.820 every man who maybe has had a breakdown in his marriage because of alcohol abuse, I could

00:42:40.700 find as many, if not more who have broken down their marriages because they have a work

00:42:45.860 addiction, you know?

00:42:47.260 So it's, it, it, we would say, well, working is better than alcohol.

00:42:51.320 I would agree with that, but I just would hate for people to think that, Hey, you just

00:42:55.780 replace your addiction with a healthy one and you're solved.

00:42:59.040 Like you're, you're, you're cured and you're just, you're not.

00:43:03.480 It's a great point, Ryan, which is important to do what they call the work.

00:43:07.780 It's important to do personal development, do therapy.

00:43:10.640 My wife and I, every two weeks, we have marriage counseling, not because anything is inherently

00:43:17.180 wrong, but because mostly it's great and we stay in the conversation, but sometimes these

00:43:24.560 little grievances can come up.

00:43:28.560 And so we have a coach who walks us through a 75 minute session every two weeks and we

00:43:33.380 get on a call and we sit together and we have a zoom call with this coach and we air any

00:43:40.200 grievances that we've got, any energy leaks.

00:43:42.620 And we talk about it and we stay in the conversation.

00:43:45.460 And because of that, I would describe my marriage as a nine out of 10.

00:43:49.280 There's problems sometimes they arise, but then we talk about it.

00:43:52.100 We talk it through.

00:43:53.740 I've had a weekly coach for 25 minutes for the last two years.

00:43:58.720 I've done a hundred sessions.

00:43:59.840 He just told me, my coach just the other day that I've actually completed a hundred sessions,

00:44:03.940 which was pretty amazing.

00:44:05.240 And he's with Landmark Education and that's a personal development program.

00:44:09.380 And 25 minutes every Wednesday, three o'clock, he calls me, I get on the phone and I talk

00:44:18.600 about things that I'm pissed off about, irritated.

00:44:21.800 He asked me where I've created miracles in my life.

00:44:24.800 What's going great?

00:44:26.520 What do I feel like is not going great?

00:44:28.520 He asked me questions.

00:44:29.640 We reposition these perceptions of good and bad in our minds.

00:44:33.260 And then we create an action plan and they go out and I put it into action for the next

00:44:38.140 week.

00:44:40.720 You know, I go to seminars.

00:44:43.460 I went to Tony Robbins' Date with Destiny in West Palm Beach, Florida in December.

00:44:50.500 I've gone and done ayahuasca.

00:44:54.040 I've done a, what is it?

00:44:55.840 A silent meditation, Vipassana, 10-day silent meditation.

00:44:59.660 You know, these are the kind of things that I do.

00:45:02.820 I like to stay in the conversation, right?

00:45:05.840 And, and be committed to personal growth.

00:45:08.940 And it sounds like Ryan, you kind of delved into that somewhat and maybe have, have a routine

00:45:13.980 on that as well.

00:45:16.440 Yeah, I would say that.

00:45:17.820 And, and I think I'd need to probably take more of a page out of your playbook, at least

00:45:21.660 to some degree, is that it's easy for me to get caught up in the, in the physical realm.

00:45:25.520 And I do enjoy the physical realm.

00:45:28.440 I do enjoy working out.

00:45:29.940 I do enjoy training.

00:45:30.980 I enjoy jujitsu.

00:45:32.380 You know, I have other physical challenges that I want to complete this year.

00:45:36.640 And those are all good things.

00:45:39.220 But I do need to make sure I'm very aware of, of looking into my mental and emotional health

00:45:45.800 in addition to my physical health.

00:45:48.120 But I, I naturally gravitate towards that side of things.

00:45:52.620 Yeah.

00:45:53.120 At the expense of gravitating towards your mental growth?

00:45:57.160 I would say, I would say, I wouldn't say at the expense of, but well, yeah, sure.

00:46:01.620 At the expense of, in lieu of, I'm like, well, I'm doing this.

00:46:04.040 So I'm good.

00:46:04.920 And maybe neglect some of the mental and emotional side of things.

00:46:10.280 Hmm.

00:46:11.540 May I offer a suggestion?

00:46:13.860 I would love it.

00:46:14.700 Yeah.

00:46:14.820 And I think it'd be helpful for the guys listening too.

00:46:16.780 Well, lean into what I refer to as personal development.

00:46:23.760 And what I mean is lean into exercising the mind and exploring the mind.

00:46:30.560 You clearly are fit and healthy and you've leaned into your physical health, right?

00:46:37.020 Nutrition, exercise.

00:46:38.160 Hire a coach, a therapist, go and do a personal development program and create consistency

00:46:48.620 around it.

00:46:50.380 And what I mean by that is, you know, get on a scheduled call weekly or every other week

00:46:55.960 or monthly.

00:46:57.900 Go to a program or a personal development program in person where it's three or four days and

00:47:02.980 that's the only thing you do and go deep and go into it.

00:47:06.800 And then afterwards, stay consistent, stay in the conversation because you clearly go

00:47:12.060 into the gym and you exercise the bicep muscle, right?

00:47:14.960 And when you go into the gym, when you lift a weight, the muscle's not growing in that moment.

00:47:20.860 You're breaking the muscle fibers down, right?

00:47:23.280 Sure.

00:47:24.040 Right.

00:47:24.640 And then it repairs and you rest it and it comes back bigger and stronger.

00:47:29.520 Well, the same thing I would submit for you, Ryan, in terms of your mental health, getting

00:47:35.820 in the conversation is the equivalent of breaking the muscle down.

00:47:39.040 It doesn't feel great because now you've got to confront past choices that you've made.

00:47:43.680 Maybe you have resentments with family members or former romantic partners or friends or just

00:47:51.040 things in life.

00:47:52.600 And now you've got to air those things out.

00:47:54.540 Now you've got to talk it through and you've got to put yourself under a microscope.

00:47:57.820 And that's challenging and that feels uncomfortable.

00:48:02.200 But if you don't, you might go through the rest of your life, yeah, with a great body and

00:48:09.640 yeah, feeling good with good nutrition and being in the gym and that's definitely helps.

00:48:14.400 But maybe there's just this little energy drip in your mind that you never even verbalize,

00:48:21.460 but it's compromising your quality of life.

00:48:23.780 Instead of you feeling like a nine out of 10, maybe you feel like a seven out of 10.

00:48:29.200 And then that drips into other areas of your life, like your relationship with your kids,

00:48:34.160 your relationship with romantic partners and friends and colleagues and your listeners

00:48:37.440 on this podcast.

00:48:39.220 So again, it's the hero's journey, Ryan.

00:48:42.640 And in order to overcome the worthy opponent, you actually have to take that first step on

00:48:51.240 the journey.

00:48:52.240 And I would suggest for you and for your listeners, it's really getting a great coach, a therapist

00:48:58.140 and just being willing to do the work.

00:49:01.140 I also think as I'm hearing you say this, that it's about doing the work that is uncomfortable

00:49:07.260 for you.

00:49:08.420 You know, we're, we're more than happy to explore the veins that we're comfortable with

00:49:12.880 or we're familiar with.

00:49:14.280 And we think, okay, well, I've got it because I'm doing good things.

00:49:18.240 But are you really looking in the places that you are uncomfortable looking?

00:49:22.600 And that's, I think, where I need to look more in my life.

00:49:24.640 And I really acknowledge you for having the self-awareness regarding that because most

00:49:30.580 people don't and most people aren't willing to go there because it's uncomfortable.

00:49:35.100 It's like you're looking at the rose bushes and you're choosing to go and run through the

00:49:39.840 rose bushes and get the thorns and get bloodied, right?

00:49:42.520 You're choosing it.

00:49:44.040 I remember the most-

00:49:44.640 Hoping something's on the other side.

00:49:45.980 I mean, that's the reality.

00:49:46.880 You're hoping, you're, you're optimistic that there is, but you don't know for sure,

00:49:52.260 but you're optimistic and hopeful it is.

00:49:55.320 My experience is that there is, there's a rainbow.

00:50:00.440 There's a rainbow there.

00:50:01.420 It's beautiful.

00:50:02.180 I can tell you, I went to Irvine, California back in 2017 and I did this five-day personal

00:50:07.480 development program.

00:50:09.340 It was me and 15 other people.

00:50:11.520 And on the third day, I was standing up in front of these 15 people who were seated in

00:50:15.180 chairs in this hotel conference room and they were asking me questions and I started to

00:50:20.620 feel like I was going to cry.

00:50:21.740 And I grew up in Australia and I'm 49 years old and I was like 44 at the time.

00:50:26.460 And we're kind of very alpha male kind of guys don't cry kind of energy, right?

00:50:31.380 And I'm standing there and I could feel myself getting emotional.

00:50:34.620 And then I started to weep and sob and I'm thinking to myself, oh God, if my Australian

00:50:40.800 friends back home could see me now, they'd be like throwing dead fruit and vegetables at

00:50:45.800 me going, shame, shame, shame.

00:50:47.700 What are you doing? 1.00

00:50:48.320 You pussy grow up. 1.00

00:50:49.540 Oh God, say, what are you doing? 1.00

00:50:50.940 Oh, get out of there. 1.00

00:50:52.160 You're doing this crazy American guru self-development program. 0.76

00:50:56.220 Run now, run now.

00:50:57.540 I'll meet you at the pub.

00:50:58.820 I'll have a beer waiting for you.

00:51:00.100 You know, that was kind of like the thoughts I was having.

00:51:02.700 And I just remember breaking down and just crying, crying and crying.

00:51:06.620 And then one person got up and hugged me.

00:51:09.340 And then another person got up and hugged me, which like made me feel even more awkward.

00:51:13.000 And they're like, we love you, James.

00:51:15.220 We love you, James.

00:51:15.980 And I'm thinking, oh, this is not who I am.

00:51:18.040 This is painful.

00:51:19.180 And it was.

00:51:20.400 It was painful.

00:51:21.660 It was excruciating.

00:51:23.300 And I had an incredible breakthrough because of that.

00:51:27.780 An incredible breakthrough.

00:51:28.900 Before that, I realized that I was envious of other people's success.

00:51:35.600 I wasn't happy with my mother and father and their divorce.

00:51:39.880 I was holding on to a resentment regarding them.

00:51:42.200 And that showed up in my adult life, in my romantic relationships, because my mother wore

00:51:47.360 the pants in the relationship with my father.

00:51:49.620 That showed up in my adult life as me treating women almost like a sport.

00:51:54.860 And so I was very good at, let's say, creating seduction and romance with women. 0.97

00:52:00.680 But I was lousy at creating love and intimacy and having a long-term relationship.

00:52:06.700 And, you know, I was frustrated with that.

00:52:09.920 And so in that program, I had to really look at myself and identify what was driving those

00:52:15.760 types of behaviors.

00:52:17.100 And it all came to fruition on that third day, standing in front of 15 people, crying in

00:52:22.880 front of them and being hugged and being told that they love me.

00:52:25.260 And I'm thinking to myself, love me?

00:52:27.080 They don't love me.

00:52:27.840 Like, they've only known me three days.

00:52:29.180 Like, what are they talking about?

00:52:31.220 So there was this level of skepticism and objection and rejection of it at the same time.

00:52:36.800 But I have to say, from that moment on, it really did break me open.

00:52:42.320 And now I've softened as a man in the sense that I'm not so hard or ruthless or kind of

00:52:46.900 black and white.

00:52:47.700 Now I'm actually quite more empathetic and open.

00:52:50.860 And that really shows up in my business because I have this business that helps people to stop

00:52:57.460 drinking alcohol.

00:52:58.420 And, you know, we have high achievers, CEOs and executives and physicians and doctors and

00:53:03.300 attorneys and lawyers.

00:53:04.160 And they come into this program and I'm on coaching calls with them and they're pushing

00:53:10.060 up against me, right?

00:53:11.380 And they're lashing out and they're fighting this thing that not drinking alcohol.

00:53:15.600 But because I went through that personal development and I cried in front of 15 people and because

00:53:20.740 I opened up, I'm now more empathetic and not so hard. 1.00

00:53:24.540 I'm definitely the opposite of Wes Watson, who would probably call you a little pussy and 1.00

00:53:28.580 grow up, right? 1.00

00:53:30.060 You absolutely would say that.

00:53:31.700 And so now I'm able to like be much more like a chameleon where I can go into any environment

00:53:39.880 and adapt my energy to be as effective a leader as I possibly can, to be a great husband, to

00:53:48.580 be a great father, to be a great coach.

00:53:50.720 So all of that is a long way of saying it's going to feel awkward, but you just got to

00:53:57.640 lean into that resistance.

00:53:59.040 And every successful person knows that sometimes it feels like you're standing on the edge of

00:54:04.300 a cliff and you look down and there are rocks below, but you get to take that leap anyway

00:54:09.420 and just trust that the safety net will appear.

00:54:11.880 And it always does.

00:54:12.800 And, uh, not only trust in that, but also to your point, being in that like-minded community

00:54:21.560 because people are further out ahead of you.

00:54:23.840 So even though you might not feel amazing in the moment or that there's silver lining at

00:54:29.260 the end, they can tell you there is, and you can lean on that because they've been through

00:54:33.440 exactly what you're going through.

00:54:34.740 And I think that's one of the powers of having that like-minded community.

00:54:39.020 Yes.

00:54:39.420 And I would suggest you're not going to get it by going to a traditional AA meeting.

00:54:46.520 You might be sitting next to a 19 year old meth addict who's holding up a gas station.

00:54:51.300 How can you relate to that person?

00:54:53.320 Of course you want the best for that person, but if you're a 20, 30, 40, 50 something year

00:54:58.480 old man or woman and you've got kids and you've got a business, you can't relate to that type 1.00

00:55:04.800 of energy.

00:55:05.160 You can support that person, but there's no relatability there, which is why it's so

00:55:09.260 important to get into a like-minded community.

00:55:12.640 And, uh, you know, I'm a business owner.

00:55:15.020 I like to hang out with other business owners.

00:55:17.320 So, you know, our program helps business owners, high achievers, growth-minded folks to stop

00:55:23.400 drinking.

00:55:23.940 We're not letting the 19 year old meth addict come into our program as much as I want to

00:55:28.400 support that, that person.

00:55:29.940 I mean, I, I can definitely relate with what you're saying because I did go to meetings

00:55:35.100 and I found myself, uh, yeah, maybe some judgment if I'm being honest, but it was hard for me

00:55:42.380 to connect because there was two people I really did connect with, but it was because they were

00:55:46.880 like me.

00:55:47.920 They were business owners.

00:55:49.120 They were about my age.

00:55:50.300 They were both men.

00:55:51.360 They were, they were both doing fairly well on the outside, but the rest, I'm like, I

00:55:56.780 don't, I don't even know like that the world you're talking about has nothing to do with

00:56:02.060 me.

00:56:02.760 And it was very hard to connect with those people.

00:56:05.160 But again, like I didn't want to be judgmental.

00:56:08.580 Those people do need to be supported, but I can stand behind what you're saying on a personal

00:56:12.560 experience.

00:56:13.400 Well, I know you're pressed for time.

00:56:15.140 I know you're about to travel and things like that.

00:56:17.160 Can you just let the guys know where to connect with you?

00:56:19.460 You've got the project 90, you've got other programs available.

00:56:22.620 Um, and I want guys who are struggling to be able to know where to turn for a resource

00:56:26.980 that truly works and has proven to work.

00:56:29.580 Thank you, Ryan.

00:56:30.320 Yeah.

00:56:30.600 Well, we have a flagship 90 day stop drinking program, which is called Project 90.

00:56:35.940 You can find details at alcoholfreelifestyle.com.

00:56:39.340 I also have a book that's called Clear, a neuroscience based approach to help high achievers finally break

00:56:46.640 free from alcohol without AA rehab or willpower.

00:56:50.740 And you can get details there at alcoholfreelifestyle.com slash clear.

00:56:55.120 It's also available where any online books are sold.

00:56:58.900 And then, um, my Instagram page at James Swanick, I do a lot of stuff there, which helps folks

00:57:05.240 like your listeners to rethink the drink, so to speak.

00:57:09.400 So how to reduce drinking, how to stop entirely.

00:57:12.880 And, uh, I'm, I'm very happy for folks to send me a direct message there.

00:57:17.160 And I very happily chat with you and send you some free resources as well.

00:57:20.940 So, yeah, look, I've had a life with alcohol and a life without, and I can tell you that

00:57:26.420 without is far better in so many ways.

00:57:29.180 Clarity, focus, energy, connected relationship, good health.

00:57:32.980 Doesn't mean that I don't experience troubles and stress and anxiety, but when you're alcohol

00:57:37.200 free, you now have the tools to handle that stress and anxiety and those troubles much better.

00:57:43.000 So, and, uh, yeah, anyone who decides to embark upon the hero's journey, I salute you and

00:57:49.080 acknowledge you.

00:57:50.980 James, we'll sink it all up.

00:57:52.080 Thank you so much for joining me today.

00:57:53.460 The work you're doing is invaluable.

00:57:55.340 So, um, I'm actually interested for myself as well, just to kind of get refreshers and

00:57:59.380 new ideas and new insights.

00:58:00.600 That would be helpful for me too.

00:58:01.860 So we'll sink it all up.

00:58:03.380 James, thanks for joining me today.

00:58:04.780 You're welcome.

00:58:05.320 Thanks for having me, Ryan.

00:58:06.120 Gentlemen, there you go.

00:58:08.820 My conversation with James Swanick, um, he's been on in the past, but that was a long time

00:58:13.200 ago.

00:58:13.480 And so I was really glad to revisit with him.

00:58:15.960 And obviously, uh, he's doing some incredible work with overcoming alcohol addiction and working

00:58:22.020 with tons of men, uh, who have struggled and continue to struggle with their, uh, their

00:58:29.080 addiction.

00:58:29.420 So if you're in that boat or you want to adopt and embrace this alcohol-free lifestyle, then

00:58:34.380 make sure to check out James's work and, uh, let them know that you found him here.

00:58:39.280 Connect with him on Instagram, uh, connect with me on Instagram if you're not over there

00:58:43.220 yet.

00:58:43.560 And then just go ahead and share this show with a man who you might think is struggling.

00:58:48.020 I know sometimes it can be hard to broach these conversations with other people.

00:58:52.480 This might be a really non-threatening way to introduce some ideas to a man in your life

00:58:58.020 who would need to hear about some of what James is teaching and sharing and, and helping

00:59:02.340 men with.

00:59:03.000 So do that. 0.56

00:59:03.740 Also make sure you check out the men's forge.

00:59:06.880 That's May 1st through the 4th, just outside of St. Louis, Missouri.

00:59:10.000 You are not going to be disappointed.

00:59:12.480 Everything is completely covered from the activities, the speakers, uh, the challenges

00:59:17.920 that we're going to be doing, the resources that you're going to have and, uh, available

00:59:21.580 and have access to.

00:59:22.660 You can check that out at themensforge.com.

00:59:26.120 All right, guys, we will be back tomorrow.

00:59:28.340 Until then, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

00:59:32.520 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

00:59:38.520 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:59:42.200 We invite you to join the Order at quarterofman.com.

00:59:45.680 And one.

00:59:46.280 I'll see you next time.

00:59:48.080 Bye.

00:59:48.100 Bye.

00:59:50.800 Bye.

00:59:51.220 Bye.

00:59:51.920 Bye.

00:59:53.880 Bye.

00:59:54.220 Bye.

01:00:02.620 Bye.

01:00:02.960 Bye.

01:00:03.200 Bye.

01:00:03.940 Hah.

Order of Man - March 11, 2025

JAMES SWANWICK ｜ How to Break Your Alcohol Addiction For Good

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