JAMES SWANWICK ｜ How to Break Your Alcohol Addiction For Good
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Summary
James Swanick is a speaker, entrepreneur, and health advocate. He is the founder of the Alcohol-Free Lifestyle Program, and has empowered thousands of men to take control of their health, their mindset, and their productivity. His work has been featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur, and the New York Times, and he s interviewed some of the world s most influential leaders and thinkers through his coaching programs. James equips men with tools to optimize their energy, confidence, and leadership, which is in alignment with The Order of Man ethos.
Transcript
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It's been said that alcohol is the only drug that if you don't take it, people think something is wrong with you.
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And I know firsthand what it's like for alcohol use and abuse to take root in your life.
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My guest today, James Swanick, makes the case that there is nothing good that comes from drinking alcohol, even in moderation or on occasion.
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Today we talk about how quickly it can compromise your quality of life, your production, and your relationships.
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Why he views alcohol as nothing more than attractively packaged poison, how you can adopt the alcohol-free lifestyle, the importance of addressing the internal root of addiction, and how facing your own insecurities, although uncomfortable, can help you crack the code.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
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When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
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You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
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This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.
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At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
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Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. I am Ryan Mickler.
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Coming up this week, or I don't know the date actually, as of the release of this podcast, but on March 15th, so we're right around there, we are hitting our 10-year anniversary.
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So I want to thank you for tuning in, whether it's been 10 minutes or 10 days or 10 years, it's you guys that make this mission so important and impactful.
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Literally millions of people around the world at this point, all embracing the protect, provide, preside mantra and motto and lifestyle, and we're doing good work to serve our families and our communities.
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I think this work is more important, maybe, than it's ever been.
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I certainly didn't think that it would be as relevant as it has been, or that it would become increasingly relevant as we continue to have these conversations.
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So, happy to be at the forefront of the movement to reclaim and restore masculinity, and that's in large part to you guys tuning in each and every week.
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And to that point, that's what this podcast is about, giving you all the tools and resources that you need to thrive in your life.
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Now, I've got a good one lined up for you today that probably has impacted just about everybody who's listened.
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It certainly has for me, and I've been very public about my struggles in the past with alcohol abuse and addiction.
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And so, I thought that this would be a good conversation, as I know, through the DMs and messages that I get, a lot of men are struggling with the same thing.
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Before I do, just want to mention my good friends over at Montana Knife Company.
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You know by now, these guys are making 100% made and sourced in America knives.
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And I believe that every man ought to have a good knife.
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Ought to have a good knife in his arsenal, in his toolkit, and I can't think of a better group, a better people, a better company, and a better mission than to make American goods and knives outside of Frenchtown, Montana.
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So, make sure you check them out and use the code ORDEROFMAN, all one word, ORDEROFMAN, at checkout, and save some money when you do.
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He's a health advocate, really dedicated to helping men unlock their full potential.
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And as the founder of Swanick Sleep and also the creator of the Alcohol-Free Lifestyle Program, he has empowered thousands of men to take control of their health, their mindset, and their productivity.
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He's also a former ESPN SportsCenter anchor, but he transitioned from the world of journalism to coaching, really emphasized on the power of habits and sleep and this alcohol-free lifestyle.
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His work has been featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur, and also the New York Times.
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And he's interviewed some of the world's most influential leaders and thinkers through his coaching programs, his content.
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James equips men with tools to optimize their energy, confidence, and leadership, which obviously is very much in alignment with the Order of Man ethos.
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I think this is such an important conversation, and it's one that I'm not sure if you know my story, but I actually got deep into the throes of alcohol abuse, which kind of peaked about two and a half years ago at this point.
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And it was amazing how quickly I slipped into it.
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I don't think it does – I don't think it's taking as much responsibility as I should have.
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Unfortunately, something catastrophic needed to happen for me to get to that point and ended up with leading to a divorce and the breakdown of a marriage that was 18 years.
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So, you know, I think one of the questions a lot of guys have is does it need to become catastrophic before we start to change?
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And I would submit that millions of guys are walking around and the alcohol that they are consuming is compromising their quality of life, but they are either unconscious to it or they're conscious to it and they convince themselves that it's not that big of a deal.
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And so they procrastinate on making a choice about it.
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They numb themselves with the alcohol, convincing themselves that two or three drinks a night isn't that bad.
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And it's not like they're waking up in a ditch.
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And so therefore, my alcohol consumption is socially acceptable.
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The reality is, is that we know that alcohol is attractively packaged poison.
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And if we're just a little bit irritable in the morning, that shows up where we snap at our wife or our husband, we're not as present with our children.
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We're operating at about a six out of 10 instead of an eight or a nine out of 10.
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That can mean we don't generate hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars in our business because we didn't make that additional call or we didn't have that strategy.
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So it doesn't have to get to rock bottom like it sounds like you may have experienced to some degree, Ryan, in order for alcohol to be severely compromising our lives.
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It was, to your point, it was amazing to me that when I stopped drinking, I would say probably within a matter of a week and a half to two weeks, I started to question, not question, but I was surprised.
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I was amazed at how much time I recaptured through the day.
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I was done by noon with all of my quote unquote normal work.
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That was my drunk level of work and I was done and I'm like, well, what do I do now?
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And I started doing projects around the house and started, you know, fulfilling commitments that I had made personally and professionally and the income started to elevate.
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But it was amazing how much time I lost that I just was not even aware of and the energy level with it as well.
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Yeah, most of us are drinking a seemingly innocent drink or two at nighttime and we go to sleep and that compromises the quality of our sleep.
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We don't spend as long in that deep REM restorative phase of sleep.
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We're essentially clocking in for a night's work when we have any amount of alcohol close to bedtime, but we don't want the body to be working during the night.
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And so what happens is we show up the next morning, irritable, frustrated, sluggish, sloppy.
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We then try to get ourselves a little pick-me-up.
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We have a Kit Kat chocolate bar just to kind of get an energy boost.
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And then, of course, that puts in really crappy calories.
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And then we have a sugar spike and then a crash.
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And now we don't make great choices throughout the day in our business or in our career.
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And now we're operating at a 6 or 7 out of 10, dragging our ass, looking forward to 5 or 6 o'clock when we can drink another glass of attractively packaged poison to try and give us some illusionary relief.
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It creates more stress, more anxiety, more poor night's sleep.
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And then the perpetual vicious cycle continues.
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And so, yes, the experience of folks who finally figure out how to quit alcohol and stay quit buy back so much time, so much clarity, focus, energy, so they can be more connected to their wife or their husband, more connected to their children, make better strategic choices in their career.
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And this is one thing I often hear because I've been fairly public about the struggles that I had.
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And inevitably, I met with a litany of guys who say, well, you know, if you can't have one drink and can control yourself, you know, you're not a man or that's the problem or these types of things.
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And I know these are individuals who like to have a drink or like to unwind or like to relax.
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For me personally, I've decided I'm not going to drink at all.
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Well, I would say to the people who are encouraging their friends to drink when their friends don't want to, grow up.
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So I just want to be clear because sometimes the two get conflated and I have friends and I have followers and those are different.
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Look, respect anyone's choice, whether they're drinking alcohol or they're not drinking alcohol.
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Stop trying to encourage people to man up and have a drink.
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There is a cultural change that is going on now.
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And increasingly, people are turning their backs on alcohol.
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We don't need alcohol to create a bond between a whole bunch of guys.
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We can watch the Super Bowl without the alcohol.
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It's just laziness if we're thinking that we can't or we don't even attempt it.
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And so when you have chosen to go alcohol-free, I see a lot of people mistakenly going into
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And so what you're doing in that situation is that you are unconsciously and consciously
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telling yourself that not drinking equals pain and deprivation and drinking equals fun.
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Now, I get why we feel it's the other way because there are smiling assassins all throughout
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And a smiling assassin is anyone who's smiling as they offer you a drink.
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It's the waiter or the waitress who says, hi, Ryan, can I get you started with a drink?
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And Ryan, if you're being very hospitable and you've got friends coming over to your
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And so you'll say, hey, James, can I get you a wine?
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And you're smiling as you offer me this attractively packaged poison.
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And so, of course, we all walk around associating alcohol with pleasure and fun and joy and
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And we've been doing it for hundreds of years, but not anymore.
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And the reality is, is that you can be hospitable without offering me poison.
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You can go to a restaurant in the bar, walk up confidently and order a soda, water, ice
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and a piece of lime with a big smile on your face.
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You can make fun of yourself for being alcohol free.
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And now everyone can just relax and have a good time.
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Yeah, I've heard that alcohol is the only drug or poison, essentially, that if you don't
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consume it, people think something's wrong with you.
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Well, it's the only drug where you have to justify not consuming it.
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Or oftentimes, I think people, and I haven't personally experienced this, but others that
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I've heard from say, if they tell their friends, you know, I don't drink, then their friends
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Or that's somebody dealing with something that they can't control themselves.
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And that might be true, but I don't think it's exclusively true or universally true.
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I have a lot of members who go through our 90-day stop drinking process.
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And I talk about this in my book, Clear, which is people have this fear that if they
00:13:28.880
stop drinking and they communicate that to people, that people are going to automatically
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And so that prevents them from stopping drinking in the first place because they have this fear
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of being ostracized from the group or being judged.
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The reality is, is that nobody cares if you drink or not.
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They just care if you are pleasant to be around.
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And if you are fun and you are open and engaging while choosing to be alcohol free, you can have
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And people will just respond to that and go, okay, great.
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And secretly, probably the people encouraging you to have a drink probably wish that they could
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either reduce their alcohol consumption or quit entirely themselves.
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You know, we often hear as alcohol being this quote unquote social lubricant.
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What kind of conversations are you having with individuals who would tell themselves they're
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more introverted or maybe they feel a little bit more uptight in social settings and they
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use alcohol as a social lubricant to allow themselves to, like you said, enjoy the experience, let
00:14:40.100
down their guard a little bit, maybe potentially be, at least in their eyes, a little more pleasant,
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I'm aware that there are millions of introverts out there who are doing that.
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But the consequences of drinking poison to try to relax a little bit are dire.
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Sure, it gives you short term confidence, maybe, maybe it relaxes you in the short term.
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But the long term consequences is like death by a thousand cuts.
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There was a study out of the UK in 2022, which showed that even one seemingly innocent drink
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per night was enough to cause some level of gray and white matter brain degeneration.
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Now, that should be a wake up call for everyone, just one standard.
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And those claims that came out in the 80s, that a glass of wine a day was good for your
00:15:30.480
heart health have been debunked so many times over the last three decades.
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In fact, there was a study that came out in 2022 from a professor, Tim Stockwell, at the
00:15:45.440
And he studied 107 previously published studies on alcohol involving almost 5 million study
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And what he found was that the studies claiming that alcohol was good for your heart were either
00:16:03.160
And as he dug in a little further, he realized that the people who were funding these studies
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had ties to the alcohol industry and to alcohol organizations.
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There was also a very famous 60 Minutes television show episode back in 1991.
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And in that episode, which was watched by 33 million Americans, this is way before, you
00:16:25.640
know, cable TV and the internet was the main thing where people actually watched the news.
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33 million people watched this episode where a French scientist who also owned a vineyard claimed
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And the 60 Minutes journalist, his name was Morley Schaefer, at the end of this segment,
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he poured a glass of wine and held it up to the camera and said, so the secret to longevity
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The very next day, red wine sales spiked by 40%.
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American Airlines reportedly all sold out of red wine because all the passengers were ordering
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it. And over the next two years, alcohol sales or red wine sales rose by 38%.
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It was almost like the whole of American society was like, yes, we've got the evidence.
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I kind of know deep down that it's not good for me, but now I've got this proof that it is.
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And of course, that's created devastating effects over the past three or four decades.
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It is interesting when you start to look at where these studies are coming from, who's
00:17:38.040
performing these studies, what the interests are and the conflicts of interest are.
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It's a shame though, that we can't look at studies, whether it relates to this or other
00:17:47.440
facets of life without being incredibly skeptical about the credibility of said research and study.
00:18:00.720
Honestly, I've been researching alcohol now for 10 years.
00:18:11.460
And I can say with great conviction, there is so much bias and so much influence from big
00:18:20.040
And that's the liquor companies, organizations, foundations, they try to get board seats.
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And yet, we polish, we slant, we change, we shift, we involve ourselves in these studies.
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And we try to like create this perception that it could be good for us.
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And then we cling on to this idea that it's good for us.
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But what I submit is, why are we trying to cling on to this thing?
00:19:02.320
When we first had our sip, when we first had a sip of alcohol back when we were a kid,
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But what has been acquired is this cultural conditioning of good times while we're drinking
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It's necessary to create connection amongst friends.
00:19:38.600
And suddenly, we get to live life the way that nature intended us to live, which is without
00:19:49.220
Do you feel like there's, I know that, well, I don't know, actually.
00:19:55.020
I assumed, and I think I know, that there's certain individuals who have a more challenging
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response biologically to alcohol, whether it's the way that it affects their brain or
00:20:10.680
their heart or their system, whatever it might be.
00:20:16.100
Are there certain people who are more chemically designed that it's going to impact them greater
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And from what we know about the study of what's called epigenetics, for most of those folks,
00:20:32.560
we can change that genetic expression through lifestyle and environment.
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If alcohol abuse runs in the family, let's just say a father, an uncle, an aunt, a grandmother
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According to the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, you have a 50% increased
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chance of also experiencing an alcohol use disorder.
00:21:04.140
I mean, but what you said doesn't fully explain.
00:21:08.220
So I, because that could just be based on what you observed as a child.
00:21:13.700
And so you just assume that's correct behavior.
00:21:16.460
And so you're just mimicking, excuse me, behavior, not necessarily genetics.
00:21:24.680
Some people are using that as a reason for their drinking.
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And that's why I'm drinking and not actually, don't actually have the genetic predisposition
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And so they're just blaming it on their genetics, their father, their grandfather.
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Then, of course, there are people who do have an expression of gene where any amount of alcohol
00:21:46.120
will set them off the rails, more so than someone who doesn't have that.
00:21:50.180
However, from what we now understand about epigenetics, we can take people who, let's just say, for
00:21:59.280
the sake of this argument, have that genetic predisposition to being affected by alcohol
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We can now have them do healthy things, focus on their sleep.
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We can have them expose themselves to morning sunlight.
00:22:16.580
We can have them practice appreciation instead of expectation.
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We can put them in a community of like-minded people who are committed to their growth, conscious
00:22:25.340
communication, put them in a gym with six guys who've got six packs for 90 days.
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Nutritionists, put them in a new environment where people support their choice to be alcohol
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free and to get the body that nature intended and to exercise and to eat well.
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In other words, you can literally stop this genetic predisposition to alcohol by simply
00:22:54.420
changing your habits, lifestyle, and your environment.
00:22:59.020
Now, you can't change your genetic code, but you can change the expression of those genes.
00:23:05.520
And that comes in through lifestyle and environment.
00:23:11.340
So James Clear, Charles Duhigg talk about habits, right?
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And how, how, how you can overcome certain habits.
00:23:20.380
And I guess my question is with regards to alcohol use, I'm sure it just becomes habitual at some
00:23:28.400
And what I'm hearing you say, when you change the expression of those genetics, what you're
00:23:33.080
saying is you're changing the response to a feeling of wanting to have a drink or wanting
00:23:43.280
And that comes from changing your habits, just like Chelsea Duhigg from The Power of Habit
00:23:49.400
So if you change your habits, you can change the expression of your genes, which now reduces
00:23:56.740
or eliminates cravings for alcohol, which then changes the expression of your genes, which
00:24:01.800
then means that if you have children later on, the likelihood that they will have a genetic
00:24:06.660
predisposition to alcohol use disorder will either be significantly, significantly reduced
00:24:18.440
Is that, that you are just more, you have a deeper craving of it.
00:24:22.960
Does that mean that your body reacts as if it's more potent than somebody else?
00:24:28.420
What is the actual genetic expression, the default genetic predisposition to alcohol abuse?
00:24:34.680
Well, one of the biggest receptors in our brain is called dopamine.
00:24:39.480
And so when someone who has a predisposition to alcohol drinks alcohol, the dopamine receptors
00:24:45.660
are so sensitive that they light up like the 4th of July.
00:24:52.720
And so someone else who doesn't have that genetic predisposition might drink and it might
00:24:57.800
just be like a little kid's playground by comparison, right?
00:25:00.940
They're not having these huge big fireworks displays, but the dopamine receptors certainly
00:25:04.640
they're triggered, but they're not going off to the degree that someone with a genetic
00:25:11.720
And then of course, what happens over time is that the dopamine receptors then get dulled
00:25:18.980
And so now that person requires more alcohol to be able to get the same 4th of July response.
00:25:26.060
And so that's when they get stuck in this cycle of like, I need a drink, I have to have
00:25:29.880
a drink, then they experience pain, depression, stress, anxiety, they need a drink to try to
00:25:36.060
get the dopamine being released and firing off.
00:25:38.900
But because it's been dulled over many years of use, now all of a sudden they need to drink
00:25:44.960
And then this becomes just a horrific perpetual cycle.
00:25:48.860
What we do at Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, where we help high achievers to rewire their mindset
00:25:56.120
around alcohol is we help folks to get their dopamine receptors firing off through holistic
00:26:03.080
activities and things like exercise, sunlight, considering yourself a professional sleeper,
00:26:10.320
practicing gratitude, journaling, conscious communication, being growth-minded, being around
00:26:16.000
positive, empowering people, as opposed to people who are constantly bringing you down.
00:26:20.780
And what they've found is that your dopamine receptors can return to a more, let's say,
00:26:27.000
base level of efficiency, whereby suddenly instead of chasing pleasure in the moment, in the short
00:26:35.080
term, now we experience this fulfillment, which is like a slow release of the dopamine over
00:26:43.520
I mean, I personally experienced that when I stopped drinking so heavily in a couple, two
00:26:50.060
and a half years or so ago, is just stepping outside and walking around the yard or going
00:26:57.440
on a drive or having a podcast with somebody like yourself.
00:27:01.860
Like everything seemed to become a little bit more vibrant, a little bit more alive instead
00:27:09.160
And the only way that I was hitting whatever I needed was through having a drink.
00:27:14.880
Well, I would submit you're experiencing fulfillment there.
00:27:18.380
It's like the slow release of the many pleasurable things in your life.
00:27:23.360
It's not chasing short-term pleasure like you're going somewhere and you get a two-hour hit and
00:27:29.540
It's looking back and going, wow, look at what I'm doing.
00:27:41.060
You know, Tony Robbins, he talks about these things called the six human needs.
00:27:45.120
And he talks about if the six human needs are met, we have a great life.
00:27:56.360
We want a little bit of uncertainty and variety in life.
00:28:02.740
Love and connection, okay, which is being connected to people.
00:28:07.100
Significance, which is do people admire us and, you know, do we feel significant in our
00:28:12.840
And then contribution, which is am I contributing to society and helping people?
00:28:18.400
And I would submit you are, Ryan, because you have this amazing podcast.
00:28:32.560
Depends on if I'm mad at my kids or not and what they might say on any given basis, but
00:28:38.260
If most of those six human needs, if not all of them are being met, I would suggest you
00:28:44.980
Most folks who are using alcohol are using it to reduce stress and anxiety or to procrastinate
00:28:52.440
And I would suggest if they looked in at those six human needs that probably some or many
00:29:02.580
We're using it to numb the pain of being ourselves because we feel lack in our life.
00:29:08.560
And then, of course, we get stuck in this vicious cycle.
00:29:10.680
We convince ourselves that it's fun, that it's no big deal.
00:29:13.900
But really, many of us are walking around using alcohol as a crutch.
00:29:20.580
Matt, I'm just going to step away from the conversation very, very briefly.
00:29:24.680
By now, you know about the event that we have coming up on May 1st through the 4th of this
00:29:30.620
year, 2025, just outside of St. Louis, Missouri.
00:29:33.680
But what you may not know is that we've listened to some feedback and we've decided to change
00:29:38.740
this up a little bit because we want something that's going to be a bit smaller, a more intimate
00:29:43.620
That was the feedback we're getting than your typical large-scale conferences.
00:29:47.440
So I'm very excited about it because not only do you have access to all that we already
00:29:52.520
have, it's going to be a lot tighter-knit group of men all working more closely together
00:29:57.500
because we feel like this will help us embrace and adopt the ideas as we go into our everyday
00:30:04.220
So if you want to connect and band with like-minded men and a community meant to test and push
00:30:13.680
And the best thing about it is that everything from the food, the activities that we're going
00:30:19.120
to be doing together as men, all the lodgings, so the conversations and the speakers that
00:30:23.200
are coming out are completely covered in your ticket.
00:30:27.800
So all you have to do is get here and then you can band with us and work with us and forge
00:30:37.000
We have very, very limited spots at this point because of the changes that we're making.
00:30:41.360
So if you want in, you've got a really short timeframe to do it.
00:30:52.960
So then that leads to the question, how do you begin to find fulfillment when you have
00:31:00.360
been using this crutch and sedating yourself with alcohol abuse?
00:31:03.460
Because that's significantly easier in the short term to get the dopamine release, to detach
00:31:13.000
How do you begin to replace that with a level of fulfillment in these six needs you're talking
00:31:19.740
The choice is you've got to choose to embark upon this journey.
00:31:24.600
Just like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, you know, she started the hero's journey.
00:31:37.020
She now had to meet people who were scary at first.
00:31:50.420
Then there was a huge obstacle and she had to level up and rise to a higher standard to
00:32:08.020
And the worthy opponent here is alcohol and your alcohol use.
00:32:12.420
Because when you have a worthy opponent, you get to go through that hero's journey and
00:32:16.700
step up and you get to find something from within and attack it.
00:32:21.660
On a more practical level, what I would suggest is once you've made that choice that you're
00:32:26.840
going to go on this journey, surround yourself with like-minded people.
00:32:34.120
Surround yourself with people who've already accomplished what it is that you want to accomplish.
00:32:38.100
No Olympic medalist ever won a medal without a coach.
00:32:49.440
He had Phil Jackson, who was his actual coach of the team.
00:32:53.600
So surround yourself with people who are smarter than you and more experienced, who can show
00:33:01.040
I would put yourselves definitely in a like-minded community.
00:33:09.620
In fact, I've done a lot of studies on this and it shows that AA's actual reported success
00:33:14.760
rate is less than 10% if you judge success over the course of a year of someone being alcohol
00:33:20.420
It's definitely helped millions of people, no question.
00:33:26.120
However, nine out of 10 people who attempt it don't get to that one year alcohol free
00:33:33.700
So when I say get yourself in a community, I don't mean a community like AA or I mean a
00:33:41.720
So people that you can relate to who are going along the same journey.
00:33:45.540
You referenced that book, The Power of Habit by Chelsea Duhigg.
00:33:48.360
And in that book, he says, change becomes probable when you put people in a like-minded
00:33:58.740
And then it's really educating yourself on healthy habits.
00:34:01.800
How can you reduce your stress and anxiety that's creating these cravings for alcohol
00:34:06.360
How can you go into social situations and have the most fun while being alcohol free?
00:34:11.980
What are the things you say to people when they're encouraging you to have a drink?
00:34:18.160
There's a whole chapter on what to say to people in those situations.
00:34:22.620
And let's just stay on that hero's journey and pray for the worthy opponent because you
00:34:27.160
will be called up to a greater level to get there, to get to the end of the road,
00:34:34.180
You know, it's interesting because I really appreciate and respect.
00:34:37.880
It's Joseph Campbell, I think, who originally identified the hero's journey.
00:34:42.920
And what's interesting about part of the path is that there's some sort of existential crisis.
00:34:49.360
Maybe somebody gets a DUI or gets into a car wreck or the breakdown of the marriage like
00:34:56.180
So there's this existential crisis and then by solving or working towards solving and going
00:35:02.360
on this journey, that existential crisis, they actually end up solving the internal
00:35:07.400
crisis, which is not the, the drinking is not the problem.
00:35:11.080
The problem is what led to the drinking, what leads to the behavior.
00:35:15.340
And if you aren't willing to address that, then you're going to replace alcohol with drugs
00:35:21.640
or pornography or other sedation and distraction methods instead of actually solving the internal
00:35:30.360
In my situation, Ryan, I did a lot of, I guess you could call it therapy, but I did a lot of
00:35:45.680
I took myself out of environments where I was drinking in a bar with friends and I put myself
00:35:52.360
into a charity where I trained for a half marathon and I raised money for charity so I could try
00:36:00.920
to activate that giving part of me, which had been dulled for many, many years.
00:36:09.420
I really salute and acknowledge anyone who's willing to go there because when you do the internal
00:36:13.920
work, then everything external starts to get better.
00:36:16.420
But it's often, it often feels very challenging, doesn't it?
00:36:22.520
It kind of feels like maybe you're running through rose bushes and you're getting thorns and
00:36:26.360
you're getting bloodied and you're like trying to get through and you're trying to understand
00:36:29.740
why your mother loved you too much or not enough or why you are envious of people or why you get
00:36:36.760
irritated by certain things when other people don't get irritated by that.
00:36:40.480
But when you get out the other side of those rose bushes and you're all bloodied and you've
00:36:43.640
got thorns, it's kind of like that scene from the Shawshank Redemption movie, you know,
00:36:48.120
where Andy Dufresne climbs through a football field of crap and comes out at the other end
00:36:53.740
and he's like got his victory stance there with the rain coming down and, you know,
00:37:03.280
Like what was your hero's journey trying to get through and do that personal development work?
00:37:10.180
I don't ever want it to sound as if that I've solved the riddle and the temptations and
00:37:15.460
everything are done and over with, you know, I'm still on that journey.
00:37:17.940
And just like, I think anybody can probably attest to it's been through it, but I think
00:37:21.640
it's a lot of what you said, you know, it's finding purpose, uh, in the work that I do.
00:37:26.500
It's finding purpose and raising my kids and being a good example.
00:37:29.900
Um, I got heavily involved with training and jujitsu and working out, um, a lot more journaling
00:37:37.440
and reflection dedicated on a daily basis to those things.
00:37:41.620
Um, sitting in discomfort and pain of mistakes and past experiences and just letting it just
00:37:51.700
Um, there's, there's been a lot to it and there's, there's more to it as well that will
00:37:57.440
It's even when we think we're at the end of the journey, we're actually still on the
00:38:01.400
Cause we're always growing, evolving and changing.
00:38:05.400
I do have a question though, um, about, I heard one time, one of my most controversial guests,
00:38:11.720
his name is Wes Watson and I'm paraphrasing, but essentially he had made the comment that
00:38:17.500
being an addict is a superpower and that if you can take that ability to fixate the ability
00:38:26.820
to be focused and, and hyper obsessive on a thing and direct it towards a positive behavior
00:38:33.240
and a positive outcome that you have an advantage over other people who might not have that same
00:38:39.520
What, what are your thoughts on something like that?
00:38:44.280
I mean, there's a lot of folks that have OCD, ADD, ADHD.
00:38:51.180
The challenge is, can you harness that into positive things?
00:38:55.360
So if you can, I would, I would agree with Wes that that is a superpower.
00:39:05.060
And a lot of folks who come to me, they're high achievers, like they are high achievers
00:39:16.980
They've married a trophy wife, if you like, like a very beautiful woman, or they've got a,
00:39:22.880
on the outside, they seemingly have a great marriage.
00:39:25.360
They've succeeded in many areas of their life, but they haven't been able to overcome this
00:39:31.500
And then when they do, when they're able to steer that focus away from alcohol onto alcohol-free
00:39:40.280
living, it's amazing how much their businesses explode.
00:39:48.820
Children, they experience phenomenal growth, which was maybe being suppressed because of
00:40:01.660
I'm not in alignment with many other things that Wes has said, but in that regard, I subscribe
00:40:07.900
I mean, my biggest concern with that, and I think we're, we're an agreement about some
00:40:13.640
of the things that have been said, but, um, my biggest concern with that is, are you just
00:40:19.600
replacing your desire for dopamine or your desire to escape with something that we would
00:40:28.420
So for example, if you spend three to four hours at the gym every day, it's no surprise
00:40:33.400
to me that you're going to get fit and strong and big, and you're going to look good, of
00:40:37.000
course, but are you actually doing any work or are you just replacing one addiction with
00:40:43.880
another that we just generally consider healthier?
00:40:49.960
I'm not sure I have the answer to that other than to say, let's just say that you do have
00:41:00.280
There's two ways you can do this to get a favorable outcome, right?
00:41:04.720
You could say, okay, I've got an addictive personality.
00:41:07.380
So now I'm going to put it into my relationship to conscious communication, to growth, to being
00:41:14.640
And I would submit that that is a hundred times better than the alternative of going
00:41:21.120
deep with alcohol or drugs and suppressing yourself.
00:41:24.820
So in that sense, I would go, okay, but also I would say, why not simultaneously as you're
00:41:29.520
doing that, explore why you have an OCD personality, explore why you're so compulsive, do the work
00:41:40.700
So I don't think it's like an, it's a, it's an or, why can't it be an and?
00:41:46.760
Sure, go deep and working out, but try to understand why, what is driving this behavior?
00:41:53.680
Because as, as good as you're going to be in one area, probably for someone who's manic
00:41:58.620
like that, they're going to be neglecting something over here.
00:42:02.480
So the, the perfect outcome I would suggest is funneling that energy, that obsessiveness
00:42:08.720
into health, wealth, love, and happiness, and not compromising any of them.
00:42:15.500
And I think if you can get those four pillars, right, equally health, wealth, love, happiness,
00:42:20.760
then you have a much more measured and much more fulfilling life as opposed to focusing on
00:42:28.620
Yeah, I mean, that's, I think that's a really good point.
00:42:31.800
Cause what I've seen, I mean, for every, every man, I don't know, I'm just assuming, but for
00:42:36.820
every man who maybe has had a breakdown in his marriage because of alcohol abuse, I could
00:42:40.700
find as many, if not more who have broken down their marriages because they have a work
00:42:47.260
So it's, it, it, we would say, well, working is better than alcohol.
00:42:51.320
I would agree with that, but I just would hate for people to think that, Hey, you just
00:42:55.780
replace your addiction with a healthy one and you're solved.
00:42:59.040
Like you're, you're, you're cured and you're just, you're not.
00:43:03.480
It's a great point, Ryan, which is important to do what they call the work.
00:43:07.780
It's important to do personal development, do therapy.
00:43:10.640
My wife and I, every two weeks, we have marriage counseling, not because anything is inherently
00:43:17.180
wrong, but because mostly it's great and we stay in the conversation, but sometimes these
00:43:28.560
And so we have a coach who walks us through a 75 minute session every two weeks and we
00:43:33.380
get on a call and we sit together and we have a zoom call with this coach and we air any
00:43:42.620
And we talk about it and we stay in the conversation.
00:43:45.460
And because of that, I would describe my marriage as a nine out of 10.
00:43:49.280
There's problems sometimes they arise, but then we talk about it.
00:43:53.740
I've had a weekly coach for 25 minutes for the last two years.
00:43:59.840
He just told me, my coach just the other day that I've actually completed a hundred sessions,
00:44:05.240
And he's with Landmark Education and that's a personal development program.
00:44:09.380
And 25 minutes every Wednesday, three o'clock, he calls me, I get on the phone and I talk
00:44:18.600
about things that I'm pissed off about, irritated.
00:44:21.800
He asked me where I've created miracles in my life.
00:44:29.640
We reposition these perceptions of good and bad in our minds.
00:44:33.260
And then we create an action plan and they go out and I put it into action for the next
00:44:43.460
I went to Tony Robbins' Date with Destiny in West Palm Beach, Florida in December.
00:44:55.840
A silent meditation, Vipassana, 10-day silent meditation.
00:44:59.660
You know, these are the kind of things that I do.
00:45:08.940
And it sounds like Ryan, you kind of delved into that somewhat and maybe have, have a routine
00:45:17.820
And, and I think I'd need to probably take more of a page out of your playbook, at least
00:45:21.660
to some degree, is that it's easy for me to get caught up in the, in the physical realm.
00:45:32.380
You know, I have other physical challenges that I want to complete this year.
00:45:39.220
But I do need to make sure I'm very aware of, of looking into my mental and emotional health
00:45:48.120
But I, I naturally gravitate towards that side of things.
00:45:53.120
At the expense of gravitating towards your mental growth?
00:45:57.160
I would say, I would say, I wouldn't say at the expense of, but well, yeah, sure.
00:46:01.620
At the expense of, in lieu of, I'm like, well, I'm doing this.
00:46:04.920
And maybe neglect some of the mental and emotional side of things.
00:46:14.820
And I think it'd be helpful for the guys listening too.
00:46:16.780
Well, lean into what I refer to as personal development.
00:46:23.760
And what I mean is lean into exercising the mind and exploring the mind.
00:46:30.560
You clearly are fit and healthy and you've leaned into your physical health, right?
00:46:38.160
Hire a coach, a therapist, go and do a personal development program and create consistency
00:46:50.380
And what I mean by that is, you know, get on a scheduled call weekly or every other week
00:46:57.900
Go to a program or a personal development program in person where it's three or four days and
00:47:02.980
that's the only thing you do and go deep and go into it.
00:47:06.800
And then afterwards, stay consistent, stay in the conversation because you clearly go
00:47:12.060
into the gym and you exercise the bicep muscle, right?
00:47:14.960
And when you go into the gym, when you lift a weight, the muscle's not growing in that moment.
00:47:24.640
And then it repairs and you rest it and it comes back bigger and stronger.
00:47:29.520
Well, the same thing I would submit for you, Ryan, in terms of your mental health, getting
00:47:35.820
in the conversation is the equivalent of breaking the muscle down.
00:47:39.040
It doesn't feel great because now you've got to confront past choices that you've made.
00:47:43.680
Maybe you have resentments with family members or former romantic partners or friends or just
00:47:54.540
Now you've got to talk it through and you've got to put yourself under a microscope.
00:47:57.820
And that's challenging and that feels uncomfortable.
00:48:02.200
But if you don't, you might go through the rest of your life, yeah, with a great body and
00:48:09.640
yeah, feeling good with good nutrition and being in the gym and that's definitely helps.
00:48:14.400
But maybe there's just this little energy drip in your mind that you never even verbalize,
00:48:23.780
Instead of you feeling like a nine out of 10, maybe you feel like a seven out of 10.
00:48:29.200
And then that drips into other areas of your life, like your relationship with your kids,
00:48:34.160
your relationship with romantic partners and friends and colleagues and your listeners
00:48:42.640
And in order to overcome the worthy opponent, you actually have to take that first step on
00:48:52.240
And I would suggest for you and for your listeners, it's really getting a great coach, a therapist
00:49:01.140
I also think as I'm hearing you say this, that it's about doing the work that is uncomfortable
00:49:08.420
You know, we're, we're more than happy to explore the veins that we're comfortable with
00:49:14.280
And we think, okay, well, I've got it because I'm doing good things.
00:49:18.240
But are you really looking in the places that you are uncomfortable looking?
00:49:22.600
And that's, I think, where I need to look more in my life.
00:49:24.640
And I really acknowledge you for having the self-awareness regarding that because most
00:49:30.580
people don't and most people aren't willing to go there because it's uncomfortable.
00:49:35.100
It's like you're looking at the rose bushes and you're choosing to go and run through the
00:49:39.840
rose bushes and get the thorns and get bloodied, right?
00:49:46.880
You're hoping, you're, you're optimistic that there is, but you don't know for sure,
00:49:55.320
My experience is that there is, there's a rainbow.
00:50:02.180
I can tell you, I went to Irvine, California back in 2017 and I did this five-day personal
00:50:11.520
And on the third day, I was standing up in front of these 15 people who were seated in
00:50:15.180
chairs in this hotel conference room and they were asking me questions and I started to
00:50:21.740
And I grew up in Australia and I'm 49 years old and I was like 44 at the time.
00:50:26.460
And we're kind of very alpha male kind of guys don't cry kind of energy, right?
00:50:31.380
And I'm standing there and I could feel myself getting emotional.
00:50:34.620
And then I started to weep and sob and I'm thinking to myself, oh God, if my Australian
00:50:40.800
friends back home could see me now, they'd be like throwing dead fruit and vegetables at
00:50:52.160
You're doing this crazy American guru self-development program.
00:51:00.100
You know, that was kind of like the thoughts I was having.
00:51:02.700
And I just remember breaking down and just crying, crying and crying.
00:51:09.340
And then another person got up and hugged me, which like made me feel even more awkward.
00:51:23.300
And I had an incredible breakthrough because of that.
00:51:28.900
Before that, I realized that I was envious of other people's success.
00:51:35.600
I wasn't happy with my mother and father and their divorce.
00:51:39.880
I was holding on to a resentment regarding them.
00:51:42.200
And that showed up in my adult life, in my romantic relationships, because my mother wore
00:51:49.620
That showed up in my adult life as me treating women almost like a sport.
00:51:54.860
And so I was very good at, let's say, creating seduction and romance with women.
00:52:00.680
But I was lousy at creating love and intimacy and having a long-term relationship.
00:52:09.920
And so in that program, I had to really look at myself and identify what was driving those
00:52:17.100
And it all came to fruition on that third day, standing in front of 15 people, crying in
00:52:22.880
front of them and being hugged and being told that they love me.
00:52:31.220
So there was this level of skepticism and objection and rejection of it at the same time.
00:52:36.800
But I have to say, from that moment on, it really did break me open.
00:52:42.320
And now I've softened as a man in the sense that I'm not so hard or ruthless or kind of
00:52:47.700
Now I'm actually quite more empathetic and open.
00:52:50.860
And that really shows up in my business because I have this business that helps people to stop
00:52:58.420
And, you know, we have high achievers, CEOs and executives and physicians and doctors and
00:53:04.160
And they come into this program and I'm on coaching calls with them and they're pushing
00:53:11.380
And they're lashing out and they're fighting this thing that not drinking alcohol.
00:53:15.600
But because I went through that personal development and I cried in front of 15 people and because
00:53:20.740
I opened up, I'm now more empathetic and not so hard.
00:53:24.540
I'm definitely the opposite of Wes Watson, who would probably call you a little pussy and
00:53:31.700
And so now I'm able to like be much more like a chameleon where I can go into any environment
00:53:39.880
and adapt my energy to be as effective a leader as I possibly can, to be a great husband, to
00:53:50.720
So all of that is a long way of saying it's going to feel awkward, but you just got to
00:53:59.040
And every successful person knows that sometimes it feels like you're standing on the edge of
00:54:04.300
a cliff and you look down and there are rocks below, but you get to take that leap anyway
00:54:09.420
and just trust that the safety net will appear.
00:54:12.800
And, uh, not only trust in that, but also to your point, being in that like-minded community
00:54:23.840
So even though you might not feel amazing in the moment or that there's silver lining at
00:54:29.260
the end, they can tell you there is, and you can lean on that because they've been through
00:54:34.740
And I think that's one of the powers of having that like-minded community.
00:54:39.420
And I would suggest you're not going to get it by going to a traditional AA meeting.
00:54:46.520
You might be sitting next to a 19 year old meth addict who's holding up a gas station.
00:54:53.320
Of course you want the best for that person, but if you're a 20, 30, 40, 50 something year
00:54:58.480
old man or woman and you've got kids and you've got a business, you can't relate to that type
00:55:05.160
You can support that person, but there's no relatability there, which is why it's so
00:55:17.320
So, you know, our program helps business owners, high achievers, growth-minded folks to stop
00:55:23.940
We're not letting the 19 year old meth addict come into our program as much as I want to
00:55:29.940
I mean, I, I can definitely relate with what you're saying because I did go to meetings
00:55:35.100
and I found myself, uh, yeah, maybe some judgment if I'm being honest, but it was hard for me
00:55:42.380
to connect because there was two people I really did connect with, but it was because they were
00:55:51.360
They were, they were both doing fairly well on the outside, but the rest, I'm like, I
00:55:56.780
don't, I don't even know like that the world you're talking about has nothing to do with
00:56:02.760
And it was very hard to connect with those people.
00:56:05.160
But again, like I didn't want to be judgmental.
00:56:08.580
Those people do need to be supported, but I can stand behind what you're saying on a personal
00:56:15.140
I know you're about to travel and things like that.
00:56:17.160
Can you just let the guys know where to connect with you?
00:56:19.460
You've got the project 90, you've got other programs available.
00:56:22.620
Um, and I want guys who are struggling to be able to know where to turn for a resource
00:56:30.600
Well, we have a flagship 90 day stop drinking program, which is called Project 90.
00:56:35.940
You can find details at alcoholfreelifestyle.com.
00:56:39.340
I also have a book that's called Clear, a neuroscience based approach to help high achievers finally break
00:56:46.640
free from alcohol without AA rehab or willpower.
00:56:50.740
And you can get details there at alcoholfreelifestyle.com slash clear.
00:56:55.120
It's also available where any online books are sold.
00:56:58.900
And then, um, my Instagram page at James Swanick, I do a lot of stuff there, which helps folks
00:57:05.240
like your listeners to rethink the drink, so to speak.
00:57:09.400
So how to reduce drinking, how to stop entirely.
00:57:12.880
And, uh, I'm, I'm very happy for folks to send me a direct message there.
00:57:17.160
And I very happily chat with you and send you some free resources as well.
00:57:20.940
So, yeah, look, I've had a life with alcohol and a life without, and I can tell you that
00:57:29.180
Clarity, focus, energy, connected relationship, good health.
00:57:32.980
Doesn't mean that I don't experience troubles and stress and anxiety, but when you're alcohol
00:57:37.200
free, you now have the tools to handle that stress and anxiety and those troubles much better.
00:57:43.000
So, and, uh, yeah, anyone who decides to embark upon the hero's journey, I salute you and
00:57:55.340
So, um, I'm actually interested for myself as well, just to kind of get refreshers and
00:58:08.820
My conversation with James Swanick, um, he's been on in the past, but that was a long time
00:58:15.960
And obviously, uh, he's doing some incredible work with overcoming alcohol addiction and working
00:58:22.020
with tons of men, uh, who have struggled and continue to struggle with their, uh, their
00:58:29.420
So if you're in that boat or you want to adopt and embrace this alcohol-free lifestyle, then
00:58:34.380
make sure to check out James's work and, uh, let them know that you found him here.
00:58:39.280
Connect with him on Instagram, uh, connect with me on Instagram if you're not over there
00:58:43.560
And then just go ahead and share this show with a man who you might think is struggling.
00:58:48.020
I know sometimes it can be hard to broach these conversations with other people.
00:58:52.480
This might be a really non-threatening way to introduce some ideas to a man in your life
00:58:58.020
who would need to hear about some of what James is teaching and sharing and, and helping
00:59:06.880
That's May 1st through the 4th, just outside of St. Louis, Missouri.
00:59:12.480
Everything is completely covered from the activities, the speakers, uh, the challenges
00:59:17.920
that we're going to be doing, the resources that you're going to have and, uh, available
00:59:28.340
Until then, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.
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Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.
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You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
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We invite you to join the Order at quarterofman.com.