Order of Man - JAMIE KILSTEIN ｜ Allow Yourself to Evolve

00:00:00.000 So many of us are trapped in our current ways of thinking that we do not allow ourselves to take in new information and apply it in a way that may threaten our current reality or identity.

00:00:11.840 Combine that need we have to be congruent in our own lives with the desire others have for us to remain in the status quo and it becomes extremely difficult for us to evolve into new ways of thinking and behaving.

00:00:25.280 My guest today is a man who has had to continually look at the way he is showing up and incorporate a new set of beliefs and values to drive his life forward.

00:00:35.920 His name is Jamie Kilstein and today we talk about individual sovereignty, spirituality versus the institution of religion, why quote unquote grifting is a concept designed to keep the status quo, caution in becoming overly apathetic,

00:00:50.960 why you should get comfortable with changing your mind and ultimately how to allow yourself to evolve.

00:00:57.300 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:01:02.820 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:12.540 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:01:17.580 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:22.060 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler.

00:01:24.740 I'm your host and the founder of this podcast and the Order of Man movement.

00:01:29.420 Welcome here today, gentlemen.

00:01:31.080 This is a podcast designed to give you all of the tools and resources and conversations that you and I need to thrive as husbands, business owners, community leaders, fathers, men in general.

00:01:42.700 So welcome here and welcome back. I do that primarily by interviewing incredible men like my guest today, Jamie Kilstein.

00:01:49.880 I've had David Goggins on the podcast, Jocko Willink, Matthew McConaughey, Terry Cruz, Tim Tebow, Ben Shapiro.

00:01:56.560 So the lineup, the list of men who I have been honored to share this podcast with is pretty impressive.

00:02:04.100 And that's a testament to you guys tuning in, number one.

00:02:06.980 And number two, applying the information in your life to better yourself, better your family, better your community, better your employees and your businesses.

00:02:14.960 And I just want to say thank you for that.

00:02:16.600 Before I get any further today, just want to mention that we've got a couple of show sponsors.

00:02:21.060 Number one, we've got Origin USA.

00:02:23.100 I'm feeling a little bit of missing out today as they are currently hosting their Origin Immersion Camp in Maine.

00:02:30.740 I couldn't go this year, unfortunately.

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00:03:19.000 All right, guys.

00:03:19.880 Those are my friends and show sponsors.

00:03:21.800 Let me introduce you to my guest.

00:03:23.080 His name is Jamie Kilstein.

00:03:24.700 He's an author.

00:03:25.720 He's a podcaster.

00:03:26.840 He's a stand-up comedian.

00:03:28.400 He is also the host of the Back Row Podcast.

00:03:30.720 And he talks openly about many of his failures on his path to becoming a better human as we all are striving to do.

00:03:40.120 Now, I like Jamie because he's willing to tell it like it is.

00:03:42.740 And he never shies away from sharing his own setbacks as well as his successes.

00:03:47.300 He's been featured on the Joe Rogan Podcast multiple times, Dr. Drew, Glenn Beck, Fox News, and now, of course, you know, the best of all on his resume, The Order of Man Podcast.

00:03:58.960 Gentlemen, enjoy Jamie's honest take on the struggles of his life and how to overcome them.

00:04:05.620 Jamie, what's up, man?

00:04:06.580 So great to finally have you on the podcast after years and years and years and years of talking about it.

00:04:12.320 We're making it work.

00:04:13.560 Dude, I think I kind of said this to you before.

00:04:16.340 I think that I wrote you when you were just starting.

00:04:19.860 The podcast didn't even happen.

00:04:21.460 You, like, sent me some PDF about how to be a man because I needed it.

00:04:25.860 And then your life got really good.

00:04:28.340 And I think mine got really bad.

00:04:30.060 And now mine's good.

00:04:31.700 And yours is good.

00:04:33.140 And now we're hooking up.

00:04:34.400 So this, it all worked out.

00:04:36.580 Yeah, man.

00:04:37.140 It's weird because if you would have, if we would have been talking a year ago, I would have said my life is really bad.

00:04:41.940 So it's like.

00:04:44.220 It's so crazy.

00:04:45.540 This is what I meditated on this morning because I'm going through a breakup and it was a loving breakup, which makes it harder and sadder.

00:04:54.800 And it's, it's good.

00:04:57.200 It means I have to prioritize the things I wasn't prioritizing.

00:05:00.920 My tendency, this is still where I get kind of stuck with the masculinity.

00:05:05.800 I think it's because of the, the, how I grew up.

00:05:09.440 I tend to be attracted to fix them uppers. 0.79

00:05:14.120 And I start to kind of mother and caretake and be like, I can fix you because I couldn't fix my mom or whatever.

00:05:22.340 I really started in hard, sorry.

00:05:24.120 Uh, and, uh, the last, so this relationship, it just wasn't working.

00:05:29.960 And the, the, what I came to the conclusion was the last month of the relationship, when I finally had the guts to break it off.

00:05:38.520 Cause I never have stayed in so many relationships.

00:05:41.200 I should have gotten out of, because I was so like, I'm defined by having a girlfriend or a wife or whatever.

00:05:47.420 Um, this last month, I was like, you know what, man, all of those times that I stay home to try to fix it.

00:05:56.100 And I skipped the gym or all of these things I've slowly been giving up.

00:06:00.660 I need to focus on super hard because that means that if the relationship works and the best version of myself, I can be the best husband I can be.

00:06:09.640 If the relationship doesn't work, I'm going to be the best version of myself that I can be.

00:06:14.960 And that's why I think the breakup is, I mean, there's literally, she moved out yesterday.

00:06:19.520 Um, that's why these bookshelves are the only thing I have.

00:06:23.340 Uh, but that's why I think I'm handling it way better because, and you, and you can tell me if this is what, where you landed, where it's like, if I can make myself constantly, if I'm constantly trying to make myself the best version of myself, then these outside circumstances, job, girlfriend, um, whatever, they don't affect me.

00:06:46.340 They're not going to cripple me. They're still going to hurt. They're still going to suck.

00:06:50.420 But back in the old day, if I lost a girlfriend, that was all that, that was my identity. So I would just crumble. 0.98

00:06:57.680 Yeah. I tend to look at it that way. I wrote a book in 2016 or 17. I can't remember called, uh, sovereignty, the battle for the hearts and minds of men.

00:07:06.040 And I still ascribed all that. I'm not saying that I've got it a hundred percent. Perfect. I went through a divorce earlier in the year.

00:07:12.220 And, and so like that took its toll on me. And then I was in this position of telling guys about the same sanctity of marriage and why, why, you know, how to be a good husband, how to be a good father.

00:07:24.140 And I was failing on those fronts. Some of it I knew about, and some of that I didn't. There's a lot of reasons for that. I've been pretty open about, but the, the point remains that, that sovereignty, this idea of being okay.

00:07:37.380 And in fact, not just being okay, but thriving outside of any external circumstances, uh, whether it's a woman or a job loss or a medical issue or a bankruptcy, uh, there, there's so many different things that could happen.

00:07:53.340 If you can stand on your own two feet, regardless of if you're in a relationship or not, regardless if you have a job or not, then I feel like you're a sovereign man because you've done everything that you need to do on this side internally, your value system, but also your, uh, external circumstances, uh, your, your, your financial wellbeing, your spiritual wellbeing, that all of that stuff.

00:08:14.900 Although I saw that you went on a bike ride this morning and you said, you don't even like bike ride.

00:08:18.560 Like it just shows you like all of this external stuff of having a girlfriend or a marriage or being a father or having a job.

00:08:27.140 Not that it's not important. It is, but that if that were all to go away like that, you would still be okay.

00:08:34.840 Yep. That's so good, man. And this word sovereign, I mean, if this tells you like, when I was like super liberal in my old world, like,

00:08:44.900 if this tells you, uh, about where my mental space was, I never knew what the word sovereign meant. I'm 41 years old.

00:08:50.840 Um, that word has just been getting like, it's just been dropped all over these lot, this last month I'm hearing sovereign the most I've ever heard.

00:08:57.820 And then I had to ask my pastor what the word, uh, uh, uh, not grace. Uh, yeah. What grace meant? Like I, I knew what, um, like forgiveness and love, but even grace, I didn't know what grace was.

00:09:13.660 Uh, and yeah, but that word sovereign has been coming up so much and I think you nailed it.

00:09:19.980 And man, with what you were going through, I can relate to that so hard because, you know, the first couple episodes of this new podcast where I'm talking about trying to figure out how to be a Christian, what I'm all like messed up.

00:09:33.240 Still I'm talking about, I found the girl I'm going to marry. I think I can be a father, all this stuff. And we pre-taped, which, which means like, you know, six episodes from now, it's going to be me being like, Oh, the breakup happened.

00:09:47.320 And it all came crumbling down. And this, because this was the first, you know, relationship where my faith was at the center, I kind of assumed that that would fix everything.

00:10:02.840 And the problem was as this relationship was, as we were struggling, I think when people hear the words faith crisis, they think that means you just stop believing in God.

00:10:17.440 And it's not that I stopped believing in God. It's that I just believed God didn't want to have anything to do with me. And it was that foster syndrome. It was just like, no, no, no. I believe he's still there. I just think I'm such garbage that there's no way that this God loves me. Like that was my faith crisis.

00:10:35.320 So the relationship was even pulling me away from faith and suddenly I have a podcast where I'm supposed to talk about this stuff. And so I felt exactly how you felt.

00:10:46.640 I'm like, man, I finally get this awesome gig. And I finally have a purpose behind my podcast and I'm screwing it up over a girl again. How am I supposed to deliver this message? But what I truly think, man, and I'm sure you found this. I hope you have so far. If not, I'll tell you.

00:11:02.580 Which is still being honest with your audience about that imposter syndrome about, you know, it's just going to give you more credibility because most people would hide it.

00:11:14.700 Most people would try to bury it or, you know, what I used to do is I used to judge other people on Twitter. So I was so busy lashing out at strangers on Twitter. I wasn't dealing with my own problems.

00:11:27.660 And so I think that even though it feels just horrible, like how am I supposed to talk about faith? How am I supposed to help people when I can't even keep my relationship or whatever? It's probably going to help more people than you think because of that.

00:11:42.600 Yeah. I mean, I think the key with that is just having a humble heart. Right. So for me, you know, as I was talking with so many guys who would listen, you know, hundreds of thousands to not millions of men who listen to what we're doing and I'm telling them, Hey, be a, be a good father, be a good husband. And I was pretty delusional during that time. I, I, I got into alcohol abuse and it was really bad.

00:12:05.760 Yeah. Uh, and, and that, that caused some delusion for me, but I think the biggest thing that we can do, not only if you're in my situation or yours, but if you're somebody who doesn't have a podcast necessarily just leading your family or trying to grow your business or be a good employee or serve in your church or whatever on a, on a different level is just be humble. You know, people talk about it as vulnerability. I don't really like that concept.

00:12:33.180 I think it's misconstrued and it's misused, but this idea of humility of just, Hey, you know, guys, like I don't have it all figured out. I, the guys will call me a hypocrite, which I think is, I think there's some, some truth to that if I'm being honest about it, but the reality is that the message is still pure.

00:12:52.220 The message is still good. And had I followed the message, I would be in a different boat. So, so this is, what's crazy is that even though we know unequivocally, we know what we should be doing as men, it's still really hard to follow at times with all that life has to throw at us.

00:13:11.260 Oh, it's so funny. Whenever people feed your own advice back to you and you're like, fuck you, man. But like, it's, it's true. Like the message is still pure. And in fact, if we listened to ourself, it's so easy to tell someone else what to do. It's like, no, no, no. My advice is still great. I'm just the idiot who didn't listen to my own advice. Essentially. 1.00

00:13:33.000 Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I know last year, it seems like the beginning maybe of 2022, you had, you'd been open about it, which I appreciate because a lot of men are dealing with this. You talked about being suicidal. And I think you even talked about being homeless to all of a sudden you have these great things happening. And you messaged me the other day about, Hey, I can't meet with you at that time. Cause I'm going on Dr. Drew. And it's like, all right, well, here's a guy who's moving. I just pulled up a clip of you on Fox news.

00:14:00.900 Cause I'm like, man, from, from a year and a half ago, no one would have imagined that you'd be where you are today. And I'm really curious about that journey for you over the past year and a half.

00:14:10.920 Yeah. I mean, it was a con, uh, it was a combination of maybe unearned confidence, total humility, like you were just talking about, um, and faith for the first time.

00:14:27.660 And I feel like, you know, I don't know how your listeners feel about religion or spirituality, but the way I came to it was sort of like, I don't know about these religious people, but Jesus seems cool.

00:14:42.080 So I'm going to start reading about Jesus because I've always judged religion. Um, and so I started reading about Jesus and I was like, okay, well, it's kind of a no lose situation if I'm just like going to try to be like this guy.

00:14:58.640 Cause whether it was real or not, uh, uh, pretty, pretty decent role model that Jesus fell. Right.

00:15:04.640 And so instead of the usual kind of, Oh my God, I'm screwed. I have to hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle. 0.92

00:15:13.640 I have to like write everybody. I have to find money. I have to, you know, whatever. I started just focusing on being a better person every day and not because I saw some video about like manifesting where it's like, you know, if you give to others, you'll be rewarded or your energy attracts.

00:15:33.880 Just cause I was like, man, I'm just, I'm sick of being so self-involved. It's not working. You know, I've always considered myself nice, but I was always just in such a desperation mode that I wasn't focused on other people as much as I like to think I was.

00:15:50.620 And so I really just kind of left room for the first time for God to do his thing. If you don't believe in God, I think I started becoming happier with who I was as a person. So that happiness sort of ended up just putting me in rooms and giving me opportunities.

00:16:13.640 And I just didn't quit. I took suicide off the table for the first time. It was always just like a comforting option as weird as that might sound. I think that when a lot of people who have never been suicidal, when they hear about someone's death or they hear about people being suicidal,

00:16:41.560 they always assume that, and this is true sometimes by the way, but they always kind of have the image of the person who's just drunk and floundering for their gun and at the rock bottom and they're screaming and they're broken and all this stuff.

00:16:55.900 And for me, it's always been, and I think what doesn't get talked about a lot, it's always sort of been calming in the sense that I don't want to do it, but the times where I've come very, very close, it's just felt like this is kind of the natural next step.

00:17:17.400 It felt like, it felt like I've tried everything. I've exhausted all options.

00:17:27.280 You know, when I thought about it, even after coming to faith was really difficult because I'm just like, dude, I'm doing all the right things.

00:17:37.960 I know, like I can't, I know I'm doing all the right things and my life still sucks and I'm still homeless.

00:17:44.660 I guess just this makes sense, you know?

00:17:48.440 And it's that almost calming wave of like, I'm just done, man.

00:17:54.480 I'm just, I'm done being hurt.

00:17:56.920 I'm done letting myself down.

00:17:58.680 I'm done being let down.

00:18:00.120 I'm done almost getting a gig and then having to take it away from me.

00:18:04.400 I'm done still paying for, you know, an affair I had 10 years ago, even though I've, you know, haven't come close to anything like that in the last decade, but some random person on Twitter will still remind me when I'm in a healthy relationship.

00:18:21.640 Like it just felt like, yeah, this, this makes sense.

00:18:26.940 And so if you're, if you're feeling that way, I would tell you, and this sounds very cliche, but you never know when the good thing's going to happen.

00:18:38.140 You never know when, if you just make it to the next day, suddenly you have this opportunity, you meet the right person.

00:18:46.940 And you, yeah, just like, you know, what Ryan was saying earlier, I went to the gym and I biked 10 miles and I've never biked 10 miles this morning.

00:18:55.300 And that doesn't seem like a big deal, but I'll, but the old version of myself wouldn't have even gone to the gym after a breakup, let alone go to the gym at 7.

00:19:04.940 I am, let alone, you know, personal best myself.

00:19:09.360 And that victory was enough to get me to this interview.

00:19:12.620 And this interview will be enough to get me to, and it's just, you just start compounding the wins and the good things.

00:19:20.780 And that was at least like the mental part of it.

00:19:23.920 Obviously other stuff happened, but that was my mental game going into sort of this resurgence.

00:19:29.280 Yeah. I think to your point, just doing the good work and maybe not even good, maybe not even good work.

00:19:36.500 I'm just trying to think about the terminology we're using.

00:19:38.660 Just do the right work.

00:19:41.200 And I think we all know what the right work is.

00:19:43.920 You will, we'll talk ourselves out of it.

00:19:46.040 We'll justify, you know, when I was drinking, my justification is like, I deserve a drink.

00:19:51.220 I can take off.

00:19:52.060 Or even at the height of my drinking, it was like, I'm still providing an income for my family.

00:19:56.740 We're still killing it.

00:19:58.240 I'm still helping all these guys.

00:20:00.860 But I know, and I knew even in the height, like the height of a, of a, one of my drunken, you know, stumbles and stutters.

00:20:09.220 Like I, I even said to myself, man, I got to stop drinking.

00:20:12.080 Cause I knew inherently, I knew this is something that I need to do, but just doing that work, despite what's happening around you, I think is going to be crucial.

00:20:20.400 Now to your point earlier, you talked about, I don't know what the guys here are regarding spirituality and religion.

00:20:27.360 I would say that the overwhelming majority of people that listen to this podcast, not everybody are, are spiritual, meaning they believe in God to varying degrees to varying the, the way that they're involved with it.

00:20:41.160 But the, the institution of religion is something that seems to be a challenge for a lot of people.

00:20:47.340 And I think that sentiment is actually growing.

00:20:49.660 I'm of the impression that the institution of religion is helpful the same way that an athlete who plays for a professional football team believes in the institution of the program.

00:21:02.820 Meaning the program will help people unite around a common good.

00:21:06.920 The program will help people get on the same page.

00:21:09.780 The program will help push people further than they would have gone on their own.

00:21:14.240 But if you're with a faulty program, that's an issue.

00:21:17.300 If you're with a good program, it's going to help the overall objective in our scenario to win football games.

00:21:23.560 Yeah. Well, and, and, and not only that, but imagine that the bad football program was also shoveling pedophiles from different program to different program.

00:21:33.080 If the bad football team was starting wars, well, you know, there were so many things.

00:21:38.660 If you want to be anti-religion, anti-God, it's easy.

00:21:43.800 It's cake, right?

00:21:44.700 Like, um, and what the other side of that.

00:21:48.280 So let me just, let me share one other side of that because you're right.

00:21:51.160 I know about, you know, we hear about wars and the crusades and we hear about, uh, the Catholic church with their problem with pedophiles and, and bishops getting into, you know, sexual sin and all this sort of thing.

00:22:02.840 And I'm not dismissing that by any means, right?

00:22:05.640 But there's a lot of congregations, many of which I belong to that have went and built churches, went and built schools, uh, provided clean drinking water for hundreds.

00:22:17.940 If not thousands of people have paid for people's mortgages in their time of need.

00:22:23.640 Like there's a lot of good that goes on.

00:22:25.660 I think a lot of that happens at the micro level, not as much maybe on the macro level.

00:22:30.900 Yeah, no, no, no.

00:22:31.540 Well, and, and, and I agree.

00:22:33.000 And that's what I was going to say.

00:22:34.200 I got so lucky or God put me at this church, but the church I walked into dispelled so much of that stuff for me.

00:22:44.200 Um, you know, those were the things that kept me away from God.

00:22:48.100 Because I didn't think about God.

00:22:49.540 I was just like, they're being represented by these people.

00:22:52.100 But what you realize, you know, if you're a Christian is that like, no, no, no, we're broken people, which is why we needed God.

00:22:58.220 Right.

00:22:59.040 Um, which is so wild to me when you get self-righteous Christians, because it's like, we should be the least self-righteous because we're the ones saying we need Jesus because we're broken.

00:23:08.620 So the crusades, you know, that wasn't Jesus launching the war.

00:23:13.280 That was broken people.

00:23:14.820 The pedophile, that was broken people.

00:23:16.760 And what I loved about my church, because the first time I walked in, I was like so nervous and suspect and felt like I was going to be outed for everything bad I've ever done.

00:23:26.480 Um, they open up every sermon by saying, hey, if you're new here, just know that we're a bunch of broken people pursuing a perfect God.

00:23:36.040 Um, if you go to a church, you know, other churches, it's the same way.

00:23:40.140 We just brag about it is what they say.

00:23:42.100 And so they include themselves.

00:23:44.020 You know, my pastor has talked about having sex before marriage.

00:23:47.000 And that right away, just, I put my guard down and I was like, oh, right.

00:23:52.880 I don't need to blame God for all of these things that happen in God's name.

00:23:58.180 Just like I'll be a broken Christian when I was a broken atheist.

00:24:01.800 Just, you know, it's, it's people, which is why, um, you know, we lean to God and, and yeah, hearing all the things that my church has done in the community in Austin, when it comes to like, you know, homeless people, when it comes to educating kids, like they've done so much.

00:24:18.720 And there are some days when I sit there thinking about what my church does. 0.96

00:24:22.020 And I was like, man, I was such a judgmental asshole towards all churches and people of faith. 0.98

00:24:28.680 Um, and what was I doing as a self-righteous atheist, but besides like yelling at people on Twitter, you know? 0.99

00:24:37.080 Yeah.

00:24:37.800 I look, and I don't want this to come across as a recruitment to Christianity or a recruitment to some sort of, you know, congregation.

00:24:46.380 But if you don't want to go to hell, I'm just saying one thing I think we need to do better at is exercising discernment, you know, and specifically regarding this religious or spiritual con conversation is, you know, so many people are like, oh, all religion is horrible.

00:25:04.000 I'm like, really?

00:25:04.700 Like all of it?

00:25:06.460 A hundred percent of it.

00:25:07.320 And, and I think we need to be really, really careful of dealing in these extremes, which I have done in the past. 0.97

00:25:13.020 You know, you, you see it with, uh, feminist extreme, feminist extreme ism where they're like, all men are horrible.

00:25:20.300 Really? 0.98

00:25:21.100 All of them.

00:25:21.900 What about, what about your dad?

00:25:23.920 You know, what, what, what about the, the coach that you had when you were in seventh grade, your soccer coach, and he helped you learn how to play soccer, uh, and he learned some lessons about life.

00:25:33.440 Like, is he bad too?

00:25:34.800 Right.

00:25:34.960 Like, we need to be very, very careful of operating in these extremes.

00:25:39.940 I know it works on social media because I've used the tactic.

00:25:43.540 It's us versus them tribalism.

00:25:46.560 When in all reality, we just need to be a little bit more discerning.

00:25:50.480 It's not that all men are bad.

00:25:52.340 For example, it's that there's some bad men and they do some horrible things.

00:25:57.240 And also there's some good men that rail and fight against it.

00:26:01.740 Yeah.

00:26:02.240 That's the reality.

00:26:03.400 Yeah.

00:26:03.840 And then talking like that drives people away from anything that is labeled feminism because that feminism is so extreme and saying all men are bad that.

00:26:15.780 You know, someone, let's say my mom's age, who considers herself a feminist, she doesn't agree with modern day feminists. 1.00

00:26:21.840 She just wants women to have equal rights. 1.00

00:26:24.080 But because the extreme feminists are so ridiculous, people start going, you know what, I'm out. 1.00

00:26:30.380 Anything that's called feminism or whatever. 1.00

00:26:32.440 And if you meet in the middle, it's like, no, we want good men want women to be treated fairly that, you know, but if you go on social media, it's just either you hate women or you hate men.

00:26:48.000 And, you know, it is so hard before this new podcast and I've started to talk about politics in this new podcast.

00:26:56.660 I was trying to pitch, you know, a show just about moderation, which I believe, which is not a sexy pitch, by the way, which I want to talk about nuance.

00:27:08.420 Everyone's like, but like, I think the majority of people are sick of extremes on all sides.

00:27:16.180 And I think that you can talk about Christianity in a way that's not going to drive away people who are skeptical of it because you're showing compassion and discernment and you're willing to criticize your own people.

00:27:28.520 I think that you can have you can be a liberal who has a gun. 0.56

00:27:32.880 I think you can be a conservative who doesn't care if gay people marry.

00:27:36.280 I think there are so many more people like this who have just given up and don't feel like their voice is being heard that, you know, conversations like this are so important.

00:27:46.600 And what I'm trying to do on my show where it's like, man, it's wild that the majority of people are sick of these extremes, but also they're not being represented in the media.

00:27:59.360 You just kind of pick a side.

00:28:01.640 I'm actually going to disagree with you a little bit on that.

00:28:03.720 Like, I don't know that people are sick of the extremes and they'll say they are like people say that all the time.

00:28:11.320 Like, I'm sick of, uh, you know, the two parties, political system.

00:28:14.940 I'm sick of this.

00:28:15.920 I'm sick of that.

00:28:16.540 And then you go in and you look at their behavior, including mine.

00:28:19.300 I'm not absolving myself from this behavior, but what do we do?

00:28:23.060 We get wrapped up in politics.

00:28:25.040 We get wrapped up in the extremes on social media.

00:28:28.980 We get pulled and sucked into pop culture, uh, you know, feuds that are taking place or what happens with Taylor Swift or who?

00:28:38.060 Exactly.

00:28:38.760 And so we say like, I'm above, I'm above that.

00:28:42.180 I'm, I'm distinguished.

00:28:43.380 I'm, I can exercise discernment.

00:28:45.140 And then at the same time, us magazine is still a thing, Jamie.

00:28:49.940 Right.

00:28:50.420 Right.

00:28:50.720 Like people magazine is still a thing.

00:28:53.400 Like, yeah, we can't say that we don't like the extremes, but then get sucked into what indictment Trump is dealing with today and how everything's about Trump and Biden's horrible.

00:29:06.800 And Trump's like, we say we don't like extremes, but our behavior says otherwise.

00:29:12.420 Okay.

00:29:13.240 So two things on that.

00:29:14.040 That's a really good point.

00:29:15.160 So the first one is, I think that what the people that I meet, I'm talking about the people I meet at jujitsu who aren't on social media, who are just like, or the, the moms whose kids I teach who are just like raising four kids.

00:29:31.560 They don't have time to, you know, whatever.

00:29:34.640 Um, I think there are a lot more of those people out there than we think.

00:29:38.820 But to your point, I think the way we squash that is one showing people that there are options out there that, because I think if people feel like they have to pick a side, they do pick a side.

00:29:53.400 And then that side kind of riles them up and none of us are above getting sucked into that.

00:29:59.160 Right.

00:29:59.460 That's why I'm even telling my team when we talk about politics, like I don't want to go back on Twitter.

00:30:05.160 You tell me what the story is and I'll react to it.

00:30:08.260 But I don't want those old habits of being like, well, what do my followers think about it before?

00:30:12.960 If you want my honest opinion, give it to me before I know what my quote unquote tribe says about it.

00:30:18.680 But I think that if you want to squash that instinct, it's what we were talking about before, which is the more confident I've become about myself as a man, the less I need that drama.

00:30:34.880 I don't know why Trump was indicted this time.

00:30:37.520 I saw he was indicted on my feed.

00:30:39.880 I don't know why.

00:30:41.460 Does that mean I'm apathetic about politics?

00:30:43.440 Maybe, but I also know that I'm a very good person in my community, which I never have been before.

00:30:51.560 And I think community is the other thing.

00:30:54.840 It's like, who are you hanging around with?

00:30:56.820 If you go out with your friends and all they're talking about is Trump this, Trump that, I can never date someone who voted like this, of course it's going to rub off on you.

00:31:07.220 But if you're hanging out with and reading or listening to people who are just trying to make you better, it's going to be a lot harder to fall into those traps.

00:31:19.500 This is coming from someone who made a living falling into those traps and, again, doesn't know why Trump was indicted this time.

00:31:27.980 So I can be a testament to that.

00:31:33.020 And, you know, I think for me what was really helpful is when I went through all of my affair drama, I didn't, like, make a heel turn and suddenly become the conservative version of who I was on the left.

00:31:51.660 The only offers I got were to, like, write an anti-feminism book or whatever.

00:31:58.800 And I said no to that when I had nothing.

00:32:01.200 I've joked before.

00:32:02.560 I think I said this on, like, Glenn Beck's show where I'm like, if I wrote a book called, like, From Feminist to Freedom Fighter and it was just me with, like, a red pill, I'd be a billionaire.

00:32:13.560 But I didn't do that. 0.82

00:32:14.680 Instead, I was homeless and it sucked.

00:32:16.440 And, you know, I kept going back and forth.

00:32:18.780 The reason I've become more conservative is just because I met really cool conservative guys.

00:32:26.320 No one tried to convince me.

00:32:28.500 You know, Tim Kennedy and I, besides on the podcast, in real life, we've only had one political conversation.

00:32:36.440 And, you know, you go to that guy's Instagram and it's pretty political.

00:32:39.780 But I don't think it is.

00:32:41.960 I think he's just like, I think it's pretty common sense stuff that people make political.

00:32:46.780 But I would see it as, like, the old me would be like, oh, he's a super, I told him, I said this on the podcast, even after we became friends, I was like, oh, this looks a little too right wing for me.

00:32:58.200 And I had to unfollow him and then I had to follow him again.

00:33:00.060 The reason that I've become more moderate or conservative is I see the way that guy treats his kids.

00:33:07.560 I see the way that guy treats strangers.

00:33:09.820 I see the way that guy talks about his wife.

00:33:12.400 I see it every day.

00:33:14.740 And so that made me go, well, if that's who he is as a man.

00:33:20.680 And I think about a lot of my old, like, super liberal friends and how they acted.

00:33:26.200 And I go, like, maybe I should ask him questions or maybe I should start investigating my beliefs.

00:33:33.780 Because if the old version of me thought of all of his beliefs weren't common sense and were evil or racist or outright or whatever you want to call it.

00:33:42.540 But he is more of a man that I would want to emulate than a lot of my old friends that I have to do some investigating.

00:33:52.420 So I think just getting around people who are outside of your echo chamber or just getting around good people, not caring how they vote, and then take the best from, you know, all these people.

00:34:06.520 And you'll start to find yourself more in the center than you thought.

00:34:12.540 All right, man, let me step away from the conversation very briefly.

00:34:15.660 By now, you've been hearing about the Iron Council, and I have very good news for you.

00:34:20.360 We're finally opening back up on September 15th.

00:34:23.060 I'm starting to get a lot of emails from guys wondering when we're opening up next.

00:34:26.720 September 15th.

00:34:28.360 That may seem a little far away, about three weeks, but it will come quickly.

00:34:32.880 And I want you to be ready.

00:34:34.360 It's all about being ready to join the premier men's brotherhoods when we do open up.

00:34:39.200 Now, you can head to orderaman.com slash Iron Council.

00:34:42.540 Or if you want to be prepared by starting the work right now, today, then head to orderaman.com slash battle ready.

00:34:50.780 Now, when you join with us, keep in mind that this is the last opening of the year.

00:34:56.160 You're going to tap into a brotherhood with over 1,000 high caliber men that aren't talking about the latest bull crap on social media, but the real issues that might be holding you back.

00:35:07.980 And most importantly, how to overcome them, a track record of success.

00:35:12.560 So if you want to band with us, head to orderaman.com slash Iron Council to be put on the wait list.

00:35:18.000 We're opening up September 15th or go to orderaman.com slash battle ready.

00:35:22.680 And you can start working on your vision, your objectives, your tactics, and hit the ground running when we open up on September 15th.

00:35:31.020 Again, orderaman.com slash Iron Council or orderaman.com slash battle ready.

00:35:37.000 Let's get back to it with Jamie.

00:35:38.260 Yeah, because I've had friends who are more liberal leaning and we're friends.

00:35:44.420 We do things together.

00:35:45.200 We spend time together.

00:35:46.060 We hunt together.

00:35:46.560 We do things together.

00:35:47.980 Yeah, they're great people.

00:35:48.860 And then they tell me about some, you know, belief they hold. 1.00

00:35:51.980 I'm like, you're an idiot. 1.00

00:35:52.920 And I'm like, wait, hold on. 1.00

00:35:54.280 Like, actually, he's not an idiot. 0.99

00:35:56.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0.99

00:35:58.000 Because I kind of like spending time with him.

00:36:00.380 I kind of like hunting with him.

00:36:01.440 I kind of like training jujitsu with him.

00:36:02.920 I think one of the most powerful things you said right there, probably throughout the entire podcast so far.

00:36:08.260 Is this concept of investigating your beliefs.

00:36:12.240 Yeah.

00:36:12.360 Man, we get so locked into our beliefs.

00:36:14.880 And it's hard to budge.

00:36:16.480 I think that goes against what we were talking about earlier with humility.

00:36:19.400 That's a prideful thing.

00:36:20.760 It's like once you lock in, you don't want to be wrong.

00:36:24.300 And that's one of the things that I've been concerned with with the podcast over the past eight years.

00:36:28.140 Is that all of my information and all of the ways that I think is there.

00:36:34.320 It's available.

00:36:35.160 You can go back and see what I thought eight years ago.

00:36:38.200 And people will often bring that up.

00:36:39.540 And they're like, well, you know, Ryan, you're saying that now.

00:36:41.980 But, you know, five years ago, you said this.

00:36:44.340 I'm like, bro, that was five years ago.

00:36:46.280 If I'm not changing my perspective in five years, what the hell have I been doing with my life?

00:36:51.680 Dude, one of the most sinister terms online is the term grifter.

00:36:56.660 Which is, you know, it's what people would say if they're like, Kielstein's a Christian now.

00:37:04.180 Oh, he's just trying to get that Christian buck or whatever. 0.99

00:37:07.540 I've seen that.

00:37:08.300 Yeah, I've seen that.

00:37:09.440 You know what I mean?

00:37:10.020 Or like this guy's a little more moderate.

00:37:12.240 Or this guy's can or Tulsi Gabbard gets it a lot.

00:37:14.940 Right.

00:37:15.340 And like, I know Tulsi.

00:37:16.500 She's one of the most authentic people I've ever met.

00:37:19.180 I don't believe Tulsi.

00:37:20.440 I got to be honest.

00:37:21.180 I don't believe you know.

00:37:21.900 I don't know her.

00:37:22.780 I don't believe her.

00:37:24.240 With what?

00:37:25.020 Her like switches? 1.00

00:37:27.240 Yeah, I just, I don't, I don't think she's conservative.

00:37:29.900 I don't think she has conservative perspectives.

00:37:32.700 I don't think, I don't, I don't know that she's risking necessarily.

00:37:37.040 That's why I believe her.

00:37:37.780 Remember, she was a Democrat before.

00:37:40.120 Yeah, right.

00:37:41.300 The, the, she got pushed into, into this place for questioning the Democrats.

00:37:47.080 Look, here's what I think.

00:37:48.320 I think we need more people like that.

00:37:52.780 I think that if you get pushed from the left for being too conservative, it's almost more

00:37:58.860 suspect to me because this is what happened to me.

00:38:01.740 It's almost more suspect to me if suddenly you're just like, now I'm this like super right

00:38:06.280 wing person.

00:38:07.260 Like she's still going to have liberal beliefs.

00:38:10.060 She was a Democrat her whole life.

00:38:12.220 Like I'm always going to have, when I see a news article, when I see a Black Lives Matter 0.77

00:38:18.400 protest, when I see something, my instinct is always going to be the side to the left.

00:38:23.460 And then I have to do the work to be like, wait a second, is this my old point of view?

00:38:30.000 How do I really feel about this?

00:38:31.600 Let's actually like read about it.

00:38:33.260 Um, I think it's good to have more people who piss off both sides.

00:38:40.680 And like I said, it's unpopular, even though we just talked about these boxes, we want to

00:38:45.980 put people in.

00:38:46.920 So is Jamie conservative now?

00:38:48.500 Like is Tulsi conservative?

00:38:50.020 Cause she did this. 0.96

00:38:51.040 I don't know what I am.

00:38:53.880 You know what I mean?

00:38:54.580 And I think that, that to me is more trustworthy, um, than someone who just makes a full switch

00:39:01.080 and suddenly everything they believe.

00:39:03.340 Yeah.

00:39:03.440 That's a good point.

00:39:04.480 I think I just have a, I think, uh, yeah, I think that's well said.

00:39:07.640 I, I just, I think where that comes from is I just have a general disdain towards all

00:39:12.820 politicians.

00:39:13.940 Yeah.

00:39:14.340 And you should, I mean, to, to, to, to get, to get far in politics at all tells me you're

00:39:21.460 kind of a socio, you know what I mean?

00:39:23.500 Like, how did you, how did you even decide that you should be the ruler?

00:39:28.520 Like what, there's no healthy thought process, uh, that leads to that.

00:39:32.640 I mean, you know, you have people at the local level who are just like, I want to enact change. 0.98

00:39:36.820 And most of the time that's in rebellion to these like shitty politicians. 0.65

00:39:42.640 Um, but yeah, I mean, I don't try and trust me, I've seen like, I've seen Tulsi post some 0.94

00:39:47.060 stuff that I'm like, ah, um, but, but it's political stuff.

00:39:51.480 And look right now she's on the ground in Hawaii, um, putting her, her, her money where 1.00

00:39:56.460 her mouth is.

00:39:57.080 And, and that to me, I think is really cool.

00:39:59.680 Um, but yeah, man, I mean, I, the, all politicians, it's like, you get involved in that system and

00:40:05.320 it's like, how moral can you stay?

00:40:07.000 Well, but it's hard though, like with politics, because I, and I can't remember the quote,

00:40:12.400 I'm not even going to attempt, but like at some point we all need to get political.

00:40:17.060 Yeah.

00:40:17.840 Because if we don't, then we'll allow others to rule and reign and dictate much of our

00:40:22.680 lives.

00:40:23.020 Like our, our, our current way of living is a political system.

00:40:26.600 And if you look at this from the local to federal level, like I've had local people,

00:40:32.420 I remember years ago, um, I wanted to buy a, a little parcel of land from my ex father

00:40:39.340 and mother-in-law and we wanted to build a house on it, man.

00:40:42.920 I had to go to the city council and I had to talk with them.

00:40:46.800 Like, you know, please, sir, can I have some more?

00:40:49.440 You know what I mean?

00:40:49.880 It's like, wow. 1.00

00:40:50.940 Bullshit. 1.00

00:40:51.480 That's their, that's their property. 1.00

00:40:53.280 I'm entering into a mutually agreeable contract with them.

00:40:58.060 Like, I don't need your approval all the way to the federal level.

00:41:01.620 And you've got the Supreme court, you know, dictating whether you agree with it or not,

00:41:06.100 they're dictated.

00:41:06.800 They become a weaponized political tool based on who's ever in power to, to, to wield against

00:41:14.480 half the population.

00:41:16.820 Yeah.

00:41:17.020 And this is where, this is kind of something I'm struggling with right now.

00:41:21.880 So, I mean, your listeners can weigh in cause I don't have an answer, but you know, when

00:41:26.920 I said, I don't even know why Trump was indicted.

00:41:29.340 And I said, that was some sort of like pat on the back, self-righteousness.

00:41:33.780 Um, my fear is that I'm going to let the pendulum swing too far in the other direction.

00:41:38.920 So I used to be news obsessed, would ignore the problems in my real life, angrily tweeting,

00:41:45.480 um, you know, consumed by outrage culture all day, every day.

00:41:50.580 Um, I've joked around before that, like, you know, I'd be sitting there and someone will

00:41:55.240 be like, Jamie, your mom's on the phone.

00:41:56.880 And I'd be like, tell her I can't talk.

00:41:58.620 I'm tweeting about feminism. 0.99

00:42:00.380 Like I was just a shitty person in my real life in order to, and I didn't know I was doing

00:42:06.880 this, but be politically political and real, uh, uh, in the social media world.

00:42:12.400 And so now, especially ever since like coming to Jesus and all this stuff, I've gone in the

00:42:18.620 opposite direction, which is I've told myself, look, if I can make people feel less alone

00:42:25.840 on Instagram and use it to either make comedy sketches or talk about mental health, or, you

00:42:32.820 know, if I'm nice to the barista, instead of looking at my phone, if I, you know, go down

00:42:38.820 to feed homeless people down on sixth street, instead of doing another show at Vulcan, um,

00:42:45.140 this is, I'm like, I don't need to be political.

00:42:47.380 Those are more, those are political statements, trying to bring people together, being nice

00:42:51.520 to your neighbor.

00:42:52.640 This is my political statement. 0.97

00:42:54.540 But to your point, at what point am I just becoming willfully ignorant?

00:43:01.220 And am letting the government run rampant, but also like, is it going to help people if

00:43:10.180 I'm just another person on Instagram shouting about Hunter Biden, or maybe it is better if

00:43:15.840 I talk about, you know, my Instagram post this morning, we're talking about the breakup

00:43:20.120 I'm going through and I made a comedy video that I'm going to post later.

00:43:24.720 And maybe that is more helpful.

00:43:26.360 Is my voice going to be the one who gets Hunter Biden put in jail, or am I just going

00:43:31.680 to go back to adding to the echo chamber?

00:43:35.140 And so I think it's finding that balance of like, what are my gifts?

00:43:40.920 What does God want me to do to make the planet better?

00:43:45.080 Is it being super political or is it being super, I don't know, focusing on mental health?

00:43:50.380 I don't know, because I don't want to get to the point where I'm just bragging about 0.92

00:43:54.280 not knowing shit as the government is just like trampling on our rights.

00:43:59.400 And I'm like, but I'm talking about riding my bicycle after a breakup. 0.96

00:44:02.660 Like, I don't want to be that either.

00:44:04.980 Yeah.

00:44:05.200 And you're right.

00:44:05.820 That's a really good point because people do that all the time.

00:44:07.960 Like, I'm not wrapped up in that.

00:44:09.260 I'm like, well, really?

00:44:10.280 You probably ought to be.

00:44:11.580 Because you're going to pay $10,000 or more and more in taxes this year.

00:44:16.080 And that's $10,000.

00:44:17.940 That's not going to go to your kids.

00:44:19.340 It's not going to go to your community.

00:44:20.960 That's not going to go to charity.

00:44:22.800 And so like, you're okay with that?

00:44:24.660 Awesome.

00:44:25.900 Yeah.

00:44:26.040 I think the risk is just becoming completely apathetic to what is happening around us.

00:44:30.440 And I guess, you know, just talking about this, I think the solution is operate by your

00:44:36.560 principles.

00:44:37.560 Yeah.

00:44:37.860 You don't want to be apathetic.

00:44:38.960 You don't want to be obsessed.

00:44:40.160 You don't want to make it your identity.

00:44:42.140 That's what I did.

00:44:43.200 And I think other people, they make it their identity.

00:44:45.380 You look on their social media and every post.

00:44:49.400 And again, I can tell you from personal experience, when I was posting, you know how many times

00:44:54.420 when I was literally making my living off of being an outraged liberal, the amount of times

00:44:58.920 I like called my congressman, none.

00:45:02.400 The amount of like, I mean, dude, I was posting so much about like Black Lives Matter and stuff

00:45:10.020 like that.

00:45:10.720 When I was hanging out with white liberals, I didn't have any Black friends.

00:45:14.100 Like it was just like angry trust fund white kids in Park Slope. 0.57

00:45:19.260 It wasn't until I became more conservative or started just going to the gym more that I actually

00:45:24.620 had more minority friends.

00:45:26.660 Like it was wild.

00:45:28.760 So I think it's just, you don't want to make it your identity.

00:45:31.920 You don't want to be like, I'm just an angry person on Twitter because that's a bummer of a life.

00:45:36.200 You need to be pursuing happiness and joy and wonderment and being kind and pursuing peace 0.99

00:45:44.880 while still being able to call people out on their bullshit. 0.99

00:45:48.200 Yeah, I think it just comes down to print, like take Trump, for example. 1.00

00:45:52.380 You know, last two times he ran, I voted for Trump.

00:45:55.200 I don't think Trump should run.

00:45:56.860 Like, I really don't.

00:45:57.700 I think he's, I think he's too compromised, whether you agree with it or not.

00:46:01.000 I think he's too compromised.

00:46:02.600 I think he can win a primary.

00:46:04.160 I don't think he can win a general election.

00:46:06.000 There's too many people like whether you agree with it or not.

00:46:09.120 That's beside the point.

00:46:10.580 I'm from a principled perspective.

00:46:12.760 I don't want Joe Biden in office. 0.98

00:46:14.760 He's a horrible president. 0.73

00:46:15.800 He's done horrible things for this country and the world globally. 0.92

00:46:19.100 And I'm not interested in having him as a president.

00:46:21.580 Does that mean that Trump runs?

00:46:23.740 No, I don't think he can beat him.

00:46:25.480 Like, I mean, somebody who could actually beat Joe Biden, because my primary objective or desire 0.99

00:46:30.780 is not to have that fool in office. 0.99

00:46:33.760 Yeah. 0.99

00:46:33.900 The reason people shouldn't be upset with you for saying that is because like,

00:46:39.740 Joe Biden should never have won.

00:46:41.620 Joe Biden, Trump was so bad that Joe Biden, if Joe Biden beats you at anything, swap players,

00:46:49.720 dude.

00:46:50.360 Totally.

00:46:51.480 Yeah.

00:46:51.780 That's not even like a, like a pro-liber.

00:46:54.020 Like I would say like, I don't like Joe Biden.

00:46:56.380 I was shocked he won.

00:46:58.080 I think we needed Trump to call out the system.

00:47:00.880 And then I think Trump kind of became part of that system.

00:47:03.600 I think he served his purpose, but that purpose is over.

00:47:06.760 It's over.

00:47:07.380 And, and this is when, you know, a lot of the people I know that voted for Trump voted

00:47:13.500 for him for good reasons, not because they were racist.

00:47:16.320 They voted for him because he called out the media.

00:47:19.860 He called out the institutions.

00:47:21.560 He called out the quote unquote swamp.

00:47:23.940 These were all true things.

00:47:25.540 I didn't vote for Trump, but like, these are true things.

00:47:28.240 The Clintons have been embedded in this swamp forever.

00:47:32.260 You know, the media is compromised.

00:47:34.060 All that stuff is true.

00:47:35.080 If he runs again, especially when the odds of him losing are so high, that's just proof

00:47:43.420 you have become part of the narcissistic system where you care more about yourself and your

00:47:48.080 quote unquote legacy than actually making the world better.

00:47:51.920 You know, I want a conservative who's going to call out the system, but like, yeah, Trump's

00:47:56.880 just become a joke at this point.

00:47:58.500 And the people who are pushing him in the media, not like your listeners, but in the media, 0.98

00:48:03.840 they just want a circus that they don't give a shit about making the country better either. 0.96

00:48:09.520 Well, he made Trump made a really interesting point and he's right. 0.96

00:48:12.660 He said that people need to drop out of the Republican primary to clear the path for a

00:48:17.120 clear winner.

00:48:17.640 And he was referring to himself.

00:48:18.820 That's what he got wrong.

00:48:19.920 What he was right about is that he needs to drop out of the race and allow somebody to 1.00

00:48:24.600 come in who could potentially win and stop fragmenting.

00:48:27.180 Uh, the Republican party, bro.

00:48:30.820 I've never said this, but this is my idea.

00:48:32.780 Quote me on it.

00:48:34.160 Give Trump a podcast.

00:48:36.320 Trump is so funny.

00:48:38.720 Even when I was hilarious.

00:48:40.620 He's a comedian, bro.

00:48:42.380 When I was so on the left and all my friends were crying when Trump won, there were so many

00:48:47.060 times that I had to be like, and just pretend I didn't think he was.

00:48:51.020 I remember, this is so simple, but it was during a Democratic primary, everyone was yelling

00:48:58.020 at each other and Trump, his only tweet, he just wrote boring.

00:49:02.540 And it was just such a perfect dig.

00:49:05.860 Um, if you give that guy a podcast and he has zero political power, it will be one, the

00:49:13.600 funniest podcast that's ever existed.

00:49:15.520 Um, any comedy podcast.

00:49:17.560 But also if you really liked him for calling out the system, let him call out the system.

00:49:23.340 You know, Rogan's podcast got so big that what he says affects political discourse.

00:49:28.840 You don't think that'll happen with Trump with pushing the right way.

00:49:32.340 Tucker, Tucker's another great example of that.

00:49:34.500 Dude, I just saw a clip of his new podcast that I haven't listened to.

00:49:38.760 And yeah, it looks like he's just like happy in the middle of the woods.

00:49:41.520 Great.

00:49:42.320 Let him do it.

00:49:43.340 Let it, there'll be, I love it.

00:49:45.500 Like put Trump on the same network as Tucker.

00:49:47.360 I don't, I don't care.

00:49:48.660 I think that's, that's the move.

00:49:50.600 No, I don't even think, I don't even think put him on the same.

00:49:53.060 Well, I think Tucker's doing his own thing, but like everybody needs to do their own thing.

00:49:56.700 The technology is there.

00:49:57.920 Like forget about the networks, forget about the, the, the tribalism and the two-party

00:50:02.220 system.

00:50:02.600 Like let us all just have our own thing, order a man, Tucker, whatever his thing is called 0.72

00:50:07.620 Trump, whatever his thing is called.

00:50:09.120 And then we can all just compete and share ideas and discuss and debate.

00:50:12.900 And there's no tribalism around that.

00:50:14.440 No, I'm so glad you said that because politically, obviously that makes sense.

00:50:19.040 But I also think for creatives, like I have had, I've struggled so much with identity crisis,

00:50:26.380 with, um, imposter syndrome.

00:50:29.100 Anytime I think I find a tribe, I, someone does something shitty or I go, Oh, but I don't

00:50:35.700 believe in that.

00:50:36.540 And people are so afraid to go out and make a podcast that doesn't fit inside a box, but

00:50:45.180 they're forgetting that anyone who has been successful is because they don't fit inside 0.97

00:50:51.140 a box.

00:50:52.240 You know, maybe these generic rip-offs of certain podcasts will be successful for a minute, but

00:50:57.060 they'll burn out.

00:50:57.820 Um, you want to listen to someone who is nuanced, who has different beliefs, who going back to

00:51:06.980 your original point, changes their mind.

00:51:09.040 That's right.

00:51:09.460 The original point, uh, grifter.

00:51:12.560 The reason grifter is such an insidious term is because you are essentially saying that

00:51:19.340 evolving your belief system is a negative thing.

00:51:24.980 Um, with everything we do in life, going to the gym, um, you know, whatever it is, the

00:51:33.000 goal is to evolve.

00:51:34.180 The goal is to get better.

00:51:35.740 Um, if you're a writer, the goal is to become more creative, to find new angles.

00:51:40.220 Um, maybe you're a nonfiction writer and you write fiction.

00:51:42.900 No one's going to be like, Oh, he's a grifter.

00:51:44.660 But when it comes to thoughts or beliefs, the fact that we automatically assume it's for

00:51:52.260 nefarious purposes and that someone, as they get older, can't become a little more conservative.

00:51:57.860 That it has to be a grift or someone coming to God or someone becoming more liberal.

00:52:03.100 Um, and I think the problem is we've seen politicians use it as a grift.

00:52:08.380 Um, we've seen people get fired or canceled and suddenly they're like, okay, I guess I'm

00:52:13.580 going to go to the other side, but the majority of people should be encouraged to constantly

00:52:22.320 be stress testing their beliefs and being able to change your mind and not have someone

00:52:29.240 hold it over you.

00:52:30.840 Like, Oh, but you thought this five years ago, Ryan, I have the podcast.

00:52:34.300 It's like, yeah, good.

00:52:35.740 Not only did I believe that five years ago, but how much more weak willed would I be if 0.98

00:52:40.520 I was like, Oh fuck, I got a podcast out there saying that I believe this. 0.98

00:52:44.700 So I could never go back on it. 0.98

00:52:46.060 No, like people should be able to proudly own changing their mind and look at the old

00:52:51.820 version of themselves with compassion and be like, yeah, man, I believe that.

00:52:55.900 Cause I was going through this.

00:52:57.560 Um, and now I believe this because I'm going through that.

00:53:00.300 And maybe one day I'll change my mind.

00:53:02.220 Maybe one day I'll circle all the way back.

00:53:04.280 But me being honest with you about that evolution is so much better than what I actually think

00:53:12.000 would be being a grifter, which is, well, I'm a liberal.

00:53:14.660 So I have to say everything that the current liberal system agrees with, because I don't

00:53:18.740 want to get canceled.

00:53:20.100 That to me is like a true grift.

00:53:22.880 Yeah, I agree.

00:53:23.500 It's, it's very egotistical.

00:53:25.000 It's very arrogant.

00:53:25.620 I think about my kids.

00:53:26.660 I've got four kids from 15 down to seven years old and you know, my seven year old, he'll

00:53:31.420 change every 30 seconds.

00:53:32.880 He's not ashamed of it.

00:53:34.700 Like he never wants, have I heard him say, oh, you know, dad, I really wanted to build

00:53:38.540 this one Lego, but now I want to do this thing.

00:53:40.980 And I don't know.

00:53:41.580 I'm conflicted about that.

00:53:44.080 Yeah.

00:53:44.400 He just knocks over the old Lego.

00:53:46.400 Totally.

00:53:46.760 And he's like, yeah, this is what I'm doing now.

00:53:48.460 And I'm like, Brad, let's do that.

00:53:49.880 Right.

00:53:50.180 And I think it changes when there's, you know, financial interests involved.

00:53:57.240 Of course, there's our, the perception or the way that we think other people might view

00:54:02.480 us and kids don't have that.

00:54:04.660 Yeah.

00:54:04.860 And I think it'd be better if we, even, even like I said, going through this divorce, I

00:54:10.820 mean, that's changed the way, the way that I've looked at a lot of things.

00:54:13.740 And I looked at myself and the way I was showing up prior to that situation. 0.99

00:54:17.080 I'm like, man, I was a real asshole. 0.99

00:54:18.720 Like the way that I was communicating, not just with, with her or the kids, but even 0.99

00:54:23.300 online, like I was irritable.

00:54:26.680 I was pissed off a lot.

00:54:27.740 Like what you're saying, where I got to fight people online over nothing.

00:54:31.360 And like, what are you doing?

00:54:33.040 Like, why are you living this existence?

00:54:35.520 Yeah.

00:54:36.060 Well, it's projection, right?

00:54:37.460 Like, um, it's projection.

00:54:40.120 And, and yeah, that's totally what I was going through.

00:54:43.060 And, you know, to, to really circle all the way back, um, when I, and I think, I, I think

00:54:52.000 there's an answer here for a lot of people when it comes to mental health, when it comes

00:54:55.840 to what we were going through, um, when I, so the reason I got this new gig and this new

00:55:03.800 podcast is what's paying the bills.

00:55:05.980 It's paying so many of the bills that I went from homelessness to like, I'm in my first house

00:55:10.700 right now.

00:55:11.120 This is the first time I've had stairs and like a back porch.

00:55:14.220 Uh, it's like a big deal.

00:55:15.840 Good for you.

00:55:16.580 Stoked for you.

00:55:17.680 Thank you.

00:55:18.580 And, uh, it happened not because I almost wasn't going to, I was like barely going to

00:55:26.300 talk about being a Christian because what I didn't want to be is, you know, like the 1.00

00:55:31.200 politician who has an affair.

00:55:33.200 And then 20 years later, he comes out with like his book.

00:55:36.580 That's like my affair with Christ.

00:55:39.280 And it's like him, like holding hands with Jesus.

00:55:41.120 And you're like, uh, so like, you don't want to be that.

00:55:44.180 Right.

00:55:46.420 That's actually a good book title.

00:55:48.520 No, I want to write that down.

00:55:49.640 I at least want to use that as a joke on a future podcast.

00:55:52.180 Um, and, and so the, uh, what happened was I was doing, you know, ever since that happened,

00:56:00.840 um, the, the affair I've kind of just been, I'm literally writing that down.

00:56:06.240 Um, I, before anybody else gets it, cause somebody else is going to hear that and be 0.97

00:56:11.060 like, damn, that's a good idea. 0.96

00:56:12.340 I'm doing it. 0.97

00:56:13.000 Um, the, all the podcasts I had were just kind of phoned in.

00:56:18.180 It was like, I made a money, money with the podcast before.

00:56:21.160 So I guess I got to have a podcast now.

00:56:22.740 I had a Patreon.

00:56:23.640 I didn't really care about, um, I tried to talk about mental health, but I was such a

00:56:29.780 mess.

00:56:30.120 I was like, I, I don't know if I was actually owning half the stuff I was saying.

00:56:35.380 Um, when I was around comedians, I would just be like, just so vulgar.

00:56:40.420 Cause I was just trying to get laughs and, and none of it felt like it was authentically

00:56:44.100 me and I wasn't even paying a lot of money, but it was enough for me to have like a shitty 0.73

00:56:48.800 apartment in Austin.

00:56:50.900 And so there's this guy named Tim Ross who used to be a podcast and he had a massive,

00:56:55.440 um, uh, podcast about spirituality and mental health, uh, is called, uh, uh, the basement.

00:57:04.260 And the week before I got invited to do that, I go, you know what, man, this comedy

00:57:10.360 podcast I'm doing, like, it's not, it's not for me.

00:57:14.180 It's not authentic.

00:57:16.140 Um, you know, I was like, I think I should walk away from it.

00:57:20.480 And that was a thousand bucks a month that I needed.

00:57:23.460 And then I was like the Patreon.

00:57:25.160 I don't feel like I'm doing anything with that.

00:57:26.960 And it just reminds me of my old desperate life after my divorce, that that was all I

00:57:31.060 had.

00:57:31.360 I would get nervous every month before switching the funds.

00:57:34.300 Cause I was like, if one person leaves, I'm screwed.

00:57:36.900 So I'm like, I'll get rid of that.

00:57:38.500 And that was another thousand dollars.

00:57:39.720 And now I have zero dollars.

00:57:41.080 There was no plan.

00:57:43.180 And, uh, so I go do Tim Ross's podcast and it's great.

00:57:47.480 We go hours.

00:57:48.820 And at the end he goes, Hey, promote your podcast.

00:57:51.600 And I go, I'm going to be honest, man.

00:57:52.940 By the time this airs, I think I would have quit my other podcast.

00:57:56.460 I shut down my Patreon yesterday at the hotel bar.

00:58:00.160 Um, and, uh, so I don't really have anything.

00:58:02.940 So I was like, follow me on Instagram, I guess.

00:58:04.920 And Tim goes, we have to talk off air.

00:58:07.960 Like we got to cut the episode.

00:58:09.540 So we cut the episode and I haven't told this story yet because some other big things he's

00:58:14.920 working on that haven't been announced, but essentially he was like, dude, uh, I have an

00:58:20.920 opportunity to fund a podcast.

00:58:22.780 This opportunity happened around the time you told me you quit your other podcast.

00:58:28.300 Um, I think this is a God thing.

00:58:31.500 I think it's supposed to happen.

00:58:32.760 I literally just have like a spot.

00:58:36.100 Um, do you want it?

00:58:37.920 And I go, yep.

00:58:40.460 And then he goes, I've never paid a podcast guest before, but, and then he sends me the

00:58:46.720 exact amount of money.

00:58:47.860 He doesn't know how much trouble I'm in, by the way, this wasn't like, Hey, I need, I

00:58:51.400 need 3000 bucks to pay rent.

00:58:52.980 He just gave me the exact amount of money I needed for all my bills.

00:58:55.900 Um, I talked to the funders the next week and then I got this show.

00:59:00.740 And so what he said to me was, he goes, you did things authentically and you may, you quitting

00:59:08.460 all that stuff that wasn't good for you, even though you felt like you needed it.

00:59:12.040 Cause you were desperate.

00:59:13.580 You made room for what God wanted you to do.

00:59:17.060 Um, and I think that for a lot of us, we were so used to fixing it ourself, forgetting that

00:59:26.960 we usually make the same mistakes.

00:59:29.720 You know, I, Saturday night I'm watching the O'Malley fight and I'm instantly like, should

00:59:36.300 I get back on Tinder?

00:59:37.620 Should I like text my ex?

00:59:39.080 Like, yeah, I want to use this breakup to become closer to God, but also like, well, what if

00:59:43.560 I just get laid like once just to like finalize the breakup? 1.00

00:59:47.580 And I'm like, this was the old shit. 1.00

00:59:50.040 This wasn't good. 0.99

00:59:51.100 This isn't leaving room for God to do what God wants.

00:59:54.600 And when I actually did that for the first and only time I get rewarded with this beautiful

01:00:00.900 gig where I get to help people who are struggling with their mental health or struggling with

01:00:05.400 their faith and, and I make the most money I've made in, you know, 10 years.

01:00:11.420 Um, what if I do the same thing with the relationship, which is so much harder because after every breakup

01:00:17.340 I do it the same way.

01:00:18.960 Um, so that's the struggle I'm in right now.

01:00:21.860 But, you know, the reason I want to say that is like one, you don't have to be a grifter.

01:00:27.700 You don't have to switch sides.

01:00:29.720 You can just authentically come to wherever you're supposed, you're supposed to get to

01:00:36.500 wherever you're supposed to get to, um, and then talk about it.

01:00:39.680 And I think that's really cool.

01:00:41.200 And then the other reason is for a lot of your listeners who are like, I'm listening to

01:00:47.240 all the motivational podcasts.

01:00:48.500 I'm reading all the Jocko books, but like, like you said, you're still drinking because

01:00:54.220 like, dude, I'm doing so much work on myself.

01:00:55.900 I just need to take a break every night or you're still hooking up, um, because you're 1.00

01:01:01.220 just like, Hey, I'm doing all the other right stuff.

01:01:03.420 Just let me like, at least like feel love from somewhere instead of feeling love from

01:01:08.280 the work I'm doing or the work I'm putting out there from God.

01:01:11.540 And so like, I am telling this to myself because I literally got rewarded for it three months

01:01:18.020 ago with this new podcast.

01:01:20.900 And I'm about to make the exact same mistake with girls.

01:01:24.620 When, when I know that little voice inside me knows I need to be alone.

01:01:28.860 I need to focus on God.

01:01:30.200 I need to focus on the work.

01:01:31.220 I need to focus on my health period.

01:01:33.100 And I just have to listen to myself.

01:01:35.240 I mean, well said, well stated.

01:01:37.180 That's the, that's the challenge and the way forward, right?

01:01:39.800 Like that's, yeah, geez.

01:01:42.920 Well, Jamie, I appreciate you, man.

01:01:44.480 You're doing some good work.

01:01:45.480 I'm excited to see where you go from here and what you continue to do and our continued

01:01:48.640 conversations, which I'd like to do as well.

01:01:51.020 Um, love to have you on my show as well.

01:01:53.520 Yeah.

01:01:53.660 Let me know.

01:01:54.140 I'd join you anytime.

01:01:55.000 So you just let me know, uh, do me a favor and let the guys know where to connect with

01:01:58.920 you.

01:01:59.220 What's the best resource in place to figure out more about what you're doing in your current

01:02:02.740 grifting journey.

01:02:06.780 That's a great time.

01:02:07.620 I don't want to say this, but it is a great title for the podcast.

01:02:11.220 Uh, Jamie, he'll see the grifting journey.

01:02:13.160 Just call it the grift.

01:02:14.460 That's so good.

01:02:15.860 Um, yeah.

01:02:16.860 So, uh, even though I have more followers on Twitter, the social media I'm focused on 0.97

01:02:21.640 the most, cause I feel like I can be the most authentic and make the shit I'm the most 0.91

01:02:25.140 proud of, um, is Instagram. 0.97

01:02:27.900 Um, dude, I've actually been doing sketches on Christianity and not making fun of Christianity, 0.86

01:02:32.620 but about being new and like not knowing what I'm doing, like when it comes to sex or porn, 0.89

01:02:37.800 um, and they're blowing up.

01:02:39.220 Like some of them have gotten millions of views.

01:02:41.200 Um, so the Instagram is at the Jamie Kilstein.

01:02:44.260 And then if you want to, uh, check out the podcast, um, which I'll have pastors on to 0.70

01:02:50.940 talk about, yeah, porn and sex and drugs. 0.93

01:02:53.460 And, you know, look, I can't quote a Bible verse confidently. 0.55

01:02:57.300 Um, but I know I'm trying to be a better person.

01:02:59.340 That's kind of the premise of it.

01:03:00.860 Um, it's called the back row with Jamie Kilstein.

01:03:03.500 You can go to back row pod.com and we have a YouTube it's on Spotify, iTunes, and then

01:03:08.840 a free newsletter where I write about this stuff as well.

01:03:11.620 And it'll have like podcast clips, but all of that can be found at a back row pod.com.

01:03:17.220 Awesome, man.

01:03:17.880 We'll sync it all up.

01:03:19.100 Jamie, I appreciate you, man.

01:03:20.000 Thanks for joining me.

01:03:20.720 I'm glad we were able to finally make this happen after years of trying and a very good

01:03:24.320 conversation.

01:03:25.300 And Hey man, I'm proud of you too. 0.98

01:03:26.560 Like it is so rare for someone to go through so much shit that affects their quote unquote 0.93

01:03:32.220 brand and be able to like fess up about it and learn from it. 0.97

01:03:36.640 And I, I think when you're doubting yourself, that's, what's going to get your listeners

01:03:40.540 to a better place than if you just plowed through it and pretended to be okay.

01:03:45.100 Cause remember that's what I did.

01:03:46.140 And then when it came out that I was like cheating, uh, everyone, literally everyone was 1.00

01:03:51.340 like, fuck you. 1.00

01:03:52.060 I'm gone. 1.00

01:03:53.000 You're a piece of shit, whatever. 1.00

01:03:54.040 So like owning up to it, I think it's a really big deal. 1.00

01:03:57.080 And I'm going to text you every time I want to download Tinder.

01:04:00.680 So get ready for that.

01:04:01.620 There you go.

01:04:02.080 Yeah.

01:04:02.340 I'm all about it, man.

01:04:03.360 All right, brother.

01:04:03.880 Appreciate you.

01:04:05.000 See ya.

01:04:07.120 All right, you guys, there is my conversation with the one only Jamie Kilstein.

01:04:10.840 I hope you enjoyed it.

01:04:11.720 I really enjoyed the conversation.

01:04:12.980 To me, that was one that was kind of like two buddies talking, catching up, jacking jaw,

01:04:19.620 talking about things that are important and relevant, but doing it in a way that's very,

01:04:23.620 very natural.

01:04:25.140 It's a way to talking between two friends almost.

01:04:31.060 So I really enjoyed the format of the conversation.

01:04:33.300 I hope you did too.

01:04:34.200 I would encourage you to check out, uh, Jamie's podcast, back row podcast, check out what he's

01:04:39.400 up to.

01:04:39.860 Of course, you can check out the things that we have going on at order of man.com slash

01:04:44.540 iron council and order of man.com slash battle ready.

01:04:47.260 Make sure again, to support our sponsors, originusa.com use the code order at checkout

01:04:52.300 and Montana knife company.com and pick up your newest hunting knife for the hunting season.

01:04:58.120 All right, guys, that's all we've got for today.

01:05:00.780 Uh, please, if you would just continue to subscribe, leave ratings and reviews, share the word,

01:05:06.120 take a screenshot, let people know what you're listening to, but most important, go out there,

01:05:09.780 take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:05:13.260 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:05:16.120 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:05:20.080 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - August 22, 2023

JAMIE KILSTEIN ｜ Allow Yourself to Evolve

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