Order of Man - JEFF KARP ｜ Energize Your Brain

00:00:00.000 You may feel like you're not reaching your full potential. So many men know there's more to life

00:00:04.640 and more to what they're capable of doing. But at times we all fail to realize what we know

00:00:10.040 deep down within us that we can accomplish. So what then do we lack if we know what we want,

00:00:16.920 but fail to obtain it? I believe the answer is systems to ensure that we're on the path to

00:00:22.160 success. And my guest believes that as well. His name is Jeff Karp. He is a biomedical engineer at

00:00:28.500 Harvard Medical School and MIT and the author of his latest book, Lit Life Ignition Tools. Today,

00:00:35.180 we talk about the power of questions and curiosity, what true diversity looks like and how only it can

00:00:41.900 lead to strength, how neurodiversity and plasticity will change the way we look at problems and

00:00:47.820 solutions, the power of pressing pause and finding new ways to develop conscious thinking. You're a

00:00:54.220 man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When

00:00:59.760 life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or

00:01:05.520 defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become

00:01:13.000 at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:18.540 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler. I'm your host and the founder of the

00:01:22.940 Order of Man podcast and movement. Welcome here today and welcome back. If you're brand new,

00:01:28.340 I want you to know that you're in the right place. This is a show dedicated to you as a father,

00:01:34.180 husband, business owner, community leader, and just man in general. So I interview interesting

00:01:40.960 people, unique people, fascinating people, guys that have incredible stories of success and failure

00:01:46.580 and setback and overcoming hardships and trials and athletes and scholars and warriors and

00:01:52.340 anywhere in between. We've had guys like Jocko Willink and David Goggins and Grant Cardone and

00:01:58.160 Andy Frisilla and Chris Williamson and John Eldridge and Tim Tebow and Tim Kennedy and Terry

00:02:03.820 Cruz and Ben Shapiro on the podcast. Of course, our lineup of men have joined us and banded with

00:02:09.120 us continues to grow. And I'm glad you're here as well. Guys, before I get into the conversation

00:02:14.140 today, I want to let you know, and I'm going to talk a little bit more about this a little

00:02:17.600 bit later, but we are closing down the iron council this week. This is our exclusive brotherhood.

00:02:23.620 And if you're interested in connecting with other men who are on the same path, who are part of this

00:02:29.160 movement, who believe in what we're doing here, and they want some systems and resources and tools

00:02:34.140 that are going to help them excel on the business front, on the personal front and take their lives

00:02:39.600 to the next level, then make sure you join us this week at order of man.com slash iron council.

00:02:45.120 That's order of man.com slash iron council. All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest

00:02:51.680 again. His name is Jeff Karp. He's a mentor. He's a biomedical engineer professor at Harvard

00:02:57.580 medical school and also MIT. He's a distinguished chair at Brigham and women's hospital and a fellow

00:03:04.760 of the national Academy of inventors. He's dedicated his research to medical problem solving and his labs

00:03:11.840 technology have led to the formation of 12 different companies. I was going through some of

00:03:16.380 the inventions that him and his lab have created as technologies that include a tissue glue that

00:03:22.460 can seal holes inside of a beating heart, what he calls smart needles that automatically stop when

00:03:28.440 they reach their target, a nasal spray that neutralizes pathogens. It's pretty incredible.

00:03:34.480 He's also the head of innovation at Geoversity Nature's University, a rainforest conservancy located

00:03:40.080 in one of the top biodiversity hotspots in the world. And he was selected as the outstanding

00:03:45.180 faculty undergraduate mentor among all facility and faculty at MIT and Harvard, MIT students.

00:03:53.300 And again, his latest book is called lit life ignition tools, use nature's playbook to energize

00:03:58.780 your brain, spark ideas and ignite action. Jeff, great to see you today. Thanks for joining me on the

00:04:06.920 order of an podcast. Yeah. Great to meet you. Thank you. I've, I get a lot of books in the mail.

00:04:12.260 I get a lot of requests to come on the podcast, but when your team reached out and I saw a little bit

00:04:16.480 about what you're up to. And of course I've read your book now I've got two copies, uh, the paperback

00:04:22.080 and the hardcover. I got both. They, they were pretty good about that. Uh, I was really excited

00:04:27.180 because I, I, I think there's a real need to tap into nature, tap into our brains, but also it's

00:04:34.460 just, we live in this incredible time in society, but it's also very overwhelming. At least it is for

00:04:40.220 me. You know, we're inundated with so much stuff on a daily basis that it's hard to cut through all

00:04:45.020 the nonsense and really get to what matters in your life. Yeah. Um, I think, uh, it's very well

00:04:51.260 said, um, you know, we, we have, we're being pinged left, right, and center. Um, and, uh, as wonderful

00:04:58.400 as, as all the technology is, uh, you know, we really need, um, we really need a strategy. We

00:05:03.800 really need tools and things that we can look to every day to help, to help us remain intentional

00:05:09.600 and, you know, make deliberate decisions. And, you know, I've certainly gotten caught up in,

00:05:14.420 in technology in various ways. I mean, one extreme case is that I got so far, you know, sidetracked

00:05:20.320 that I'd be walking my dogs outside and watching Netflix at the same time. You know, I'd be happy

00:05:25.860 to go on like an hour walk just so I could watch a full show, not even paying attention to them,

00:05:30.520 not even knowing like what they did or, you know, where I went. I couldn't even remember the route

00:05:34.980 I took. I mean, that, that's how far I got. Yeah. I remember there was an instance in my life where

00:05:40.340 I remember vividly thinking I'm going to drive home from work. Now I don't drive home from work

00:05:45.400 anymore. I work at my house, but when I was drive home from work and I'm not

00:05:50.300 going to listen to anything, no podcast, no radio, no nothing, no books on tape, no CDs when that was

00:05:57.000 a thing. And I'll tell you what, just that 20, 25 minute commute time of pure silence helped me

00:06:04.320 transition into family man, as opposed to businessman. That was a huge little small shift

00:06:11.340 that I made in my life that really helped cut out some of the nonsense and clutter.

00:06:14.360 Yeah. You know, um, what really, what really did it for me was during COVID, um, you know,

00:06:20.120 this unintentional pause that we all experienced and, um, you know, it, uh, it really sent me into

00:06:27.600 self-reflection mode. Um, I had become a workaholic, um, and become so productive and, you know, there's a

00:06:34.680 lot of reasons for it actually, because, um, back when I, uh, when, when I was, um, in elementary school

00:06:41.760 and high school, I mean, pretty much all the school, I just, I really struggled a lot and, uh, I had

00:06:46.460 undiagnosed ADHD and learning differences. I didn't know it. Um, my parents didn't know it. My teacher

00:06:51.880 certainly didn't know it. And, um, when I finally got identified in the seventh grade, um, uh, you know,

00:06:59.800 it was this like window of opportunity open for me and, you know, I'd been struggling so much in developing

00:07:05.760 all these tools. Um, but my tools really focused on productivity and efficiency. Um, you know, there

00:07:12.640 was never enough time in the day and things always kind of came slow to me. Um, and then fast forward

00:07:17.520 to COVID, you know, I kind of looked up and my son was, you know, all of a sudden a teenager, you know,

00:07:23.460 quarterback of the football team. Um, and, but my kids weren't really coming to me anymore. I was just so

00:07:29.260 heads down, you know, things were going amazing at my lab and, and, and, but at home, it was a

00:07:34.760 completely different story. And I really had to sort of hone in on some key tools to help me,

00:07:42.300 you know, change my life around, prioritize and really find ways to connect more deeply with my

00:07:47.980 family and what's really most important. Yeah. I'm sure it's powerful to have a litmus test. Uh,

00:07:52.900 you know, I, I work best under frameworks. If I have a framework for something, whether it's working

00:07:57.240 out of the gym or, uh, ways that I might test business ideas or funnel them through so I can

00:08:03.200 prioritize on what is the most important that seems to be extremely productive for me, but I'm

00:08:08.340 wondering, I don't know if everybody's like that. You seem to be a systems guy. I know a little bit

00:08:13.300 about your story and your history and the technology and the biotech that you've been involved with

00:08:17.640 innovation wise. I don't know that everybody's like that though. What do you think about that?

00:08:23.460 Some of these guys don't seem to operate the same way that somebody like yourself might

00:08:27.940 operate. Yeah. I think, I think, you know, what you're describing really is this just spectrum of

00:08:33.660 neurodiversity, you know, and it impacts kind of every area of life. Like even, um, you know,

00:08:40.220 I'm a, I'm a scientist. Um, we develop new medical therapies and, you know, when you even think about

00:08:45.400 drugs, um, that are being designed by pharmaceutical companies, you know, often they only work for 30% of the

00:08:51.720 population or 40% of the population. Um, and so that's why we need multiple shots on goal. We need

00:08:58.080 multiple tools and strategies and, you know, but one thing I think that really kind of, um, brings

00:09:04.360 people together. I mean, there's many things, um, but one thing in particular, I think relevant to our

00:09:08.920 conversation is neuroplasticity, um, you know, this ability to rewire our brains, um, this ability to,

00:09:16.660 you know, we're, we're born with this really large prefrontal cortex, um, you know, relative to

00:09:22.640 overall brain size. And that gives us remarkable capabilities as humans to problem solve and to,

00:09:30.340 you know, to think critically and to plan and to, um, you know, make decisions. And, um, and we all have

00:09:38.440 this capacity to, through practice, um, you know, bolster connections in our brains to create new

00:09:45.500 connections, um, and to even, you know, sort of remove old connections, you know, prune, prune them

00:09:51.560 away. And I think that to me, you know, our, our own individual processes in life kind of mimic

00:09:58.660 evolution, you know, on a, on a broad scale in the sense that our environments are constantly changing

00:10:03.880 and we have all these capabilities to adapt to those environments. It's just a matter of, do we,

00:10:10.740 do we consciously kind of step into the moment to take advantage of our evolutionary inheritance

00:10:17.660 and start to, you know, experiment with tools and strategies that can really help us to, um,

00:10:25.100 to, to, to be what we want to be, to do what we want to do.

00:10:28.840 I really like that you're talking about this idea of consciousness because something that's been

00:10:32.880 playing in my mind for years at this point is humans are incredible in that I can wake up today

00:10:38.120 and I can decide to do something different or even to think something different purely because I want

00:10:45.380 to. I spent the last couple of weeks hunting. I'm a pretty avid hunter. The last couple of weeks

00:10:50.680 hunting, I hunt pig and deer and moose and everything else. These, these animals, as far as I know,

00:10:56.560 they don't get to decide if they're going to wake up and do something different than what they did

00:11:01.080 yesterday. They're, they're operating off intuition, you know, mother nature, the, the way that they've,

00:11:08.660 you know, been, been evolved there, but they're not consciously thinking about, you know, I'm going

00:11:14.060 to wake up today. And I think instead of being angry, I'm going to be happy today, or I'm going

00:11:19.620 to wake up today. And instead of eating that bag of chips, I'm not going to eat the bag of chips and

00:11:23.480 I'm going to eat something healthier and go to the gym. It gets pretty powerful. If you think about

00:11:28.580 what we're capable of as humans relative to other animals in the animal kingdom.

00:11:33.100 Yeah. Yeah. No, I think about this a lot. And, um, I was actually, I just got back from a trip to,

00:11:38.120 to Panama. I was in the jungles of Panama. Um, uh, it was pretty, pretty incredible. And, you know,

00:11:44.320 when, when you're there, I mean, these are exactly the things that you think about, um, you know,

00:11:48.060 when on this night hike and someone had a black light and we found a scorpion under a rock and,

00:11:53.280 you know, there was like this red snake we couldn't identify and frogs and, you know,

00:11:57.820 all kinds of birds and, and just seeing, you know, life, um, with, you know, the various threads and

00:12:04.660 interconnections and, and, and things, I think, you know, just, you can't help it, it be curious,

00:12:11.060 you know, about what other animals think and how do they decide what they do. And, and, um, you know,

00:12:17.100 I, I feel like there's, there's a lot more there than we probably know, you know, just in terms of,

00:12:22.120 of what they feel and what they think. And, but I think what's clear from, from the science,

00:12:27.200 you know, um, there's been a lot of research done to try to understand cognition and things like

00:12:32.720 that in other creatures that, you know, what we have exactly, as you said, is, is quite special.

00:12:37.760 And I think that, um, you know, it's, it's amazing to kind of think that as special as it is,

00:12:44.520 often we're only using a very small fraction of our human machinery, you know, like our capabilities.

00:12:49.840 And so, you know, as you said, you could get up in the morning and if you really are deliberate,

00:12:55.180 um, you can accomplish amazing things and it may not happen that day, but over time, you know,

00:13:01.500 just wanting something to happen and you start bringing your awareness to it, you start thinking

00:13:06.000 about it, you start noticing patterns in your conversations and in what you're seeing and

00:13:10.440 observing in the world and the content that you're sort of consuming, you start to bring about

00:13:15.700 those changes. And it's just, just amazing. Like what we truly are capable of.

00:13:20.200 Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm fascinated with this, you know, again, to go back to the hunting thing where,

00:13:24.940 you know, I might be sitting in a blind or, or, or stalking an animal and all I needed to do is take

00:13:30.100 two steps to the left. That's all I need. Take two steps to the left and this is done. And they'll

00:13:35.180 take one step and then they'll take the exact opposite step that I need them to take. And I think

00:13:40.560 that speaks to the intuition, the senses they tap into. And then what I can't help but think in

00:13:47.100 those moments is what am I not tapping into? You know, I'm, I'm operating under these systems.

00:13:52.740 You know, we think that animals, for example, are inferior species, but we, we have access to your

00:13:58.000 point. We're only using a, a, a very small fraction of what is available to us. So I'd like to talk about,

00:14:05.040 and I'm going to back up a little bit here because the name of your book is lit.

00:14:07.720 And I'd like to talk about what that means because as I initially read it, I'm thinking,

00:14:13.360 oh, this is flow, like getting into a flow state, but you call it flow 2.0. So I'd love to hear more

00:14:19.060 about the lit theory, the lit system, whatever you want to call it. And then we can work backwards

00:14:23.640 into how to apply some of these tools in our lives. Absolutely. Yeah. One thing that you said,

00:14:29.440 just, just to mention it, um, you know, it's the type of thing that, um, you know, sometimes I work up,

00:14:33.840 up on a second level of our house and, you know, I've said, I put the blinder up and I look, look

00:14:38.300 outside the window sometimes. And if I look at someone walking, sometimes they'll look at me

00:14:42.040 right in the window. Like they know, right. Like there, there is that, you know, yet to be defined,

00:14:46.500 you know, sort of sixth sense or whatever you want to call it. Right. Like there is something there,

00:14:51.680 like you're describing with the animals. And, you know, there's, there's, you know, science is one

00:14:55.860 of these kinds of funny things where it's like, you know, unless you have, unless you have

00:15:00.260 evidence for it, unless you have a lot of support for it, it's, it's, it's, you know,

00:15:04.220 generally considered to not be true, you know? And, and so, but there's so many things out there

00:15:08.620 that, um, we haven't discovered yet that, you know, so any, anything that is now true is because

00:15:13.740 we have scientific support, but if it's not sort of, you know, if we, we don't have the support for

00:15:18.900 it, we tend to discount it in science, um, until the support is there. And so it's just a matter of

00:15:23.520 time before we figure out what you are experiencing there with the animals. And, you know,

00:15:27.060 you're kind of interacting with them and they're sensing you're sensing. And, you know, we, we

00:15:31.120 haven't just scientifically explored that enough. And, you know, I just wanted to sort of, you know,

00:15:35.740 just, just, just sort of highlight some thoughts on that before we move on. But, um, yeah, no,

00:15:40.340 getting, getting to lit. Um, so, you know, lit, lit has really been seven years in the making and, um,

00:15:48.280 and, uh, you know, actually when, when COVID hit, I had been focusing the book on productivity

00:15:54.020 and, um, a series of events happened. Um, you know, I think we were all pretty substantially

00:16:00.180 affected. I, I decided to, to transition it to intention and purpose, um, you know, rather than

00:16:06.100 just focus on, on productivity. There are a lot of tools I think that can help with productivity,

00:16:09.760 but lit to me, um, is really, it's, it's like that flash of inspiration that, that spark that we all

00:16:17.280 have access to at, at any potential moment. Um, you know, really the ability to light up our brains,

00:16:22.680 um, with intention. And I think that's what really separates it from, from flow 1.0. So I'm very

00:16:28.940 familiar with flow because, um, I've used it as a survival tool for my whole life, pretty much be

00:16:34.200 having ADHD. Um, people who have ADHD typically can get into a hyper-focused state for things that

00:16:40.720 they're interested in. Um, and what I realized is that I can actually get into a flow state almost on

00:16:47.580 demand, um, by procrastinating. So when I leave things to the last minute, um, and the pressure

00:16:53.700 builds up, um, then I'm actually able to really just, you know, get into, you know, get it, get in

00:16:59.540 the saddle and just go, you know, for long periods of time. The thing though, about flow as helpful as

00:17:05.500 it's been for productivity for me, and, you know, people can experience it in gaming and, and hunting and,

00:17:11.560 and in sports and, you know, in all kinds of things. The issue, I think we're one of the,

00:17:16.340 the sort of like considerations about flow is that you could be engaged in something that you're not

00:17:20.780 being deliberate about or something you're not truly intentional about, you know, like it could

00:17:26.080 be something like you recognize that you want to focus more on something else in your life, but here

00:17:31.200 you are like, for me, that's a big part of the workaholic nature was I was just always getting

00:17:36.760 into flow state, just working hard. And I wasn't sort of stepping back and thinking like, am I really

00:17:41.700 balancing out my life? Am I really prioritizing things the right way? Am I spending enough time

00:17:46.940 with my family? Am I there for my children and my wife, you know, like I really want to be.

00:17:51.520 And so that's where I think lit comes in is that, you know, one way to look at it is, is kind of a flow

00:17:57.160 2.0, um, where it's tapping into this heightened state of awareness, bringing that to everything.

00:18:04.180 Um, but with this underlying really sort of deep sense of, of intention. And to me, intention is

00:18:11.720 something that, you know, almost kind of look at intention. Like I like to think of it as like,

00:18:15.600 there's this velocity of intention. Um, so it's like the more you, and I think that kind of speaks

00:18:22.240 to the process. It's not just like a switch, like, you know, just sort of, it's like on or off. But to me,

00:18:27.520 it's like, as I start to think about what I really want to do, what really drives me,

00:18:32.340 what really is I'm most curious about what, what are really my priorities? I start walking in those

00:18:39.020 directions, you know, taking steps and it starts to build and build and build. And, you know, it's

00:18:43.340 like a ball rolling down a hill. It starts to gain more and more momentum. And so that's how I kind

00:18:47.580 of look at, at, uh, at lit. Yeah. Well, I like that you're talking about the intentionality behind

00:18:52.860 it. Cause when you were talking about the, well, productivity, it's easy to be productive. I mean,

00:18:58.380 every single guy here today can just go be productive. But the question really is,

00:19:02.840 is it towards something that you really want to do? You know, if you were to go ask, for example,

00:19:07.620 a hundred people, you know, Hey, how you doing? I would bet that 80 plus percent of them are going

00:19:11.960 to say, Oh, it's good. I'm busy. As if busy is the metric that we should all be striving for.

00:19:17.520 I don't want to be busy. I do want to be productive. I do want to have fun. I do want to

00:19:23.040 be joyful. I want to experience new things. I want to be challenged in a meaningful and significant

00:19:28.360 way. But busy is the lowest benchmark I could possibly think of for success in my life. But

00:19:36.280 it seems like we've been conditioned as a society to be busy. And I can't help, but think about the

00:19:42.100 ant farm that I had when I was, you know, seven, eight years old. And I would watch as this godlike

00:19:47.160 figure over these ants scurrying around and mocking them for just being busy and scurrying

00:19:53.720 around. And then I, there's a mountain right out here outside of my window. And I hike this mountain.

00:19:58.100 It's a mile up and I hike every once in a while. And I stand up there and I look down and I see all

00:20:02.660 these little ants scurrying around cars, driving to and from work and other places and running errands.

00:20:08.140 And that's me too. I'm not interested in that lifestyle. I mean, we have to do it to some degree,

00:20:12.900 but I love the concept of intention versus just busy worker productivity.

00:20:18.380 Yeah. Actually, you know, you mentioned something about ants and, um, uh, one of the, uh, that there

00:20:23.680 was a, um, uh, a researcher that, that I talk about in the book who, uh, actually many years ago,

00:20:29.820 like, uh, maybe it was like 60, 70 years ago was studying ants and realized that, um, you know,

00:20:37.280 we like to think of ants as, as really just kind of following orders and not going off the track,

00:20:42.060 but he started putting obstacles in front of ants and started to realize that they were actually

00:20:46.720 problem solving in different ways where there was this like neurodiversity that applied to ants,

00:20:51.520 just like humans. And not all of them went the same way. You know, some tried to go around the,

00:20:55.600 go over the obstacle. Some tried to go around it one way or another way. Like, you know,

00:20:59.380 they were all kind of experimenting a little bit, um, in, uh, in their approach. And, um, and to me,

00:21:05.700 I think that that really, I don't know, it's almost like they have some intentionality. I mean,

00:21:10.880 it's, it's hard to say, but like, you know, to, to me, I like to think of it that way,

00:21:14.740 that there's this intentionality and experimentation to really find the best path,

00:21:19.480 because when they found the shortest path, then they all went that, that way, you know,

00:21:23.300 like they were all able to, um, which is pretty amazing. Um, and you know, the other thing that

00:21:27.800 really jumps into my mind is this sense, what I've really noticed is, and this is one of the,

00:21:32.820 one of the tools, um, in the book is called, is called press pause. And, um, you know,

00:21:37.960 I used to be that one of those 80% as you defined it, where I would just say, yeah,

00:21:42.620 how you doing? I'm really busy, you know? And it's kind of like, yeah, I'm busy. Like,

00:21:45.900 that's a good thing. Um, but what I realized is that here I am booking back to back meetings

00:21:51.920 and I get to the end of the day and I'm like, wow, I met with a lot of people. I feel like I've

00:21:56.460 been productive and got a lot of things done. Um, but then I started to notice something else,

00:22:01.100 which is when I rarely, you know, I'd have like a pause in between a meeting, you know,

00:22:05.980 like 20 minutes, half an hour, an hour, whatever it was. I started to recognize it was like this

00:22:11.280 pattern recognition that kind of opened up to me where it was like, wait a moment when there's a

00:22:16.740 break and I'm not really just, I'm not just jumping to email or doing something else, but I'm just,

00:22:21.500 maybe I go for a walk or something. I started to think like, wow, like I'm starting to connect with

00:22:27.120 the, what the person just said to me. And I'm starting to connect it to other thoughts I have or

00:22:32.400 other pieces of information in my mind or other people that I know. And I'm like, wait, I should

00:22:36.720 introduce that person to X and maybe we should all get together. And you know, that would help us

00:22:42.640 advance this project that we're working on. So like, in other words, it's like, if we book,

00:22:47.920 if we're so busy, we actually miss these opportunities for extremely valuable insights and,

00:22:55.500 and, and, and sort of pieces of information or ways to connect thing, ways to do lateral thinking

00:23:00.920 and to, to really connect dots that we, that are right there, but we don't have, we don't make

00:23:06.800 the time to connect them. Well, and I think the real problems of the world are solved when it's

00:23:11.360 not as the adage goes a mile wide and an inch deep, like we need to get deeper. And, and also we've

00:23:18.120 heard things like how many problems and solutions have been created on a walk. And that's certainly

00:23:24.000 been true anecdotally of my life. I could be frustrated about something or be stuck on something.

00:23:29.560 And I could go for a 30 minute walk around the neighborhood without any earbuds in, without

00:23:34.140 any podcasts or anything else, just go walk, not even any expectation of anything, just go walk

00:23:40.420 and be quiet. And the solution is there within, you know, 10 minutes of, of going on my walk.

00:23:46.120 It's pretty phenomenal. I think the challenge though, if you're a guy like me and I imagine for you as

00:23:50.300 well, sitting in silence or pausing, as you call it, doesn't seem productive. So we take those pauses,

00:23:59.280 at least I do. And we try to fill it with nonsense. So how does a guy who is highly productive,

00:24:06.660 high achieving, ambitious, driven, motivated, convince himself, or maybe there's a better word

00:24:12.100 for that to pause margin, take a step back and do nothing in between those busy periods.

00:24:20.160 Yeah, no, it can be, it can be tough to, to do that initially. And, um, you know, certainly talk

00:24:25.760 with people who, um, you know, they, they, they have a system that works and that they like, and,

00:24:31.620 and they're just, you know, fine kind of going about it. I think, you know, on the other hand,

00:24:35.460 you have people who sort of notice there's this kind of inner desire for possibility. There's this

00:24:40.680 sort of sense that like, maybe if I did things differently, it could be better, or I could sort

00:24:45.800 of take more advantage of the time that I have, or I, you know, if I was to go a bit deeper, if I

00:24:51.080 was to meet with a few less people or, or sort of strategize in a different way that maybe I could do

00:24:57.760 even better, maybe even be, have a better sense of wellbeing or a better sense of health or, you know,

00:25:04.860 these kinds of things. And I, I, I think that there are these tiny steps that we can take. Um,

00:25:10.160 and, and there's experimentation that we can do as well. Like you could just, you know, one week,

00:25:14.760 you just sort of plan for a 20 minute break or 15 minute break in between and don't do anything

00:25:19.200 and just sort of see what happens, you know, just let your mind go for a walk, like you said. So,

00:25:23.860 I mean, I think there are ways that we can just sort of experiment and not commit. And by the way,

00:25:28.700 I'm kind of like of the mindset that practices are really important. It's very important to practice

00:25:35.380 things, but also that it, you don't necessarily have to do that your whole life and practices can

00:25:41.000 actually get in the way of life. Um, if you sort of make them too regimented, right? Because what

00:25:47.220 happens is, is there may be other practices that you're curious about that you might miss if you

00:25:53.780 just focus on that one practice, even though it's getting monotonous and you're still, you know,

00:25:57.780 you're sort of just, you know, kind of sluggish and bringing yourself to that practice every day.

00:26:02.080 So I think, I think there, there, there can be these, like when we sort of start paying attention

00:26:06.460 to the cues, you know, cues from our minds, our bodies are very intelligent, the cues that we're

00:26:11.860 getting from other people around us, you know, we might sort of start to think like, maybe there

00:26:16.260 are these other possibilities of ways of doing things. And maybe there's a tiny step that we can

00:26:21.200 just take and just see, see what happens. And, you know, we might find completely new practices

00:26:26.040 that even serve us better. Well, so when you're talking about these cues, what might that look like?

00:26:31.160 I mean, I know, for example, today, I'm not feeling awesome today. I'm a little under the

00:26:35.460 weather, you know, nursing a little bit of a minor, you know, cold or some congestion or something,

00:26:41.260 you know, no big deal, but I, I recognize that. And so I don't have a very busy day. I've got this

00:26:47.440 conversation with you. I've got a couple of emails and things I need to send out, but I did that

00:26:51.460 deliberately and intentionally because I see that cue, but it hasn't always been like that. So how do you

00:26:57.360 begin to identify what those cues are? Cause I, I think you're right. I think the body and the mind

00:27:02.220 are, are, are intelligent and we'll give you signals and clues. Sometimes we overlook them.

00:27:09.560 All right, guys, let's pause that conversation very quickly. Guys, this is the last week. The

00:27:14.080 iron council will be open. Now I've talked with a lot of men over the last week or so, since we've

00:27:19.320 been open, uh, who want to join, but they're hesitant for a variety of reasons. They're dragging their

00:27:24.240 feet. They're stalling. And if that's you, and sometimes it is, there's something that I want

00:27:29.160 to share with you. One of my primary factors of success is the ability that I have to take action.

00:27:35.660 That's it. I don't sit the sidelines. I don't unnecessarily ponder at the expense of movement.

00:27:41.860 I don't look for all the reasons something won't work. Now, look, I won't lie to you and tell you that

00:27:47.320 it's always paid off, but there is one absolute that I'm very familiar with. And that's this.

00:27:54.240 If you do nothing new, you're doomed to live the same life you're living right now. Now, look,

00:28:01.140 if you're satisfied, good for you. I'm happy for you. But if you're not, and you know, there's

00:28:06.560 something more, it's time to stop waffling. And it's time to start doing something that has proven

00:28:11.960 to be transformative for tens of thousands of men. And guys, you can do that right now for a very

00:28:17.440 limited time. Cause we're shutting it down this week at order man.com slash iron council. Go check out a

00:28:22.920 quick video, get signed up, stop dragging your feet, especially if you've been thinking about

00:28:27.220 doing it for a long time, it's time to do it. And if it doesn't work out, no harm, no foul. You

00:28:31.580 leave, you realize it wasn't for you, but if it does, it could potentially transform your life.

00:28:36.740 Order man.com slash iron council. Do that right after the show for now. Let's get back to it with Jeff.

00:28:41.880 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there are a lot, there are a lot of ways, um, to kind of tap into

00:28:48.880 it. Um, and I, I use a variety of strategies. Um, one is for example, let's say you mentioned going

00:28:55.860 on a walk and kind of being able to problem solve. Um, you know, if you go on a walk and you don't have

00:29:01.060 your devices with you. And I find that's actually easiest to not have, or go on my devices. If I set an

00:29:05.880 intention, like if I go on a walk and I say, okay, I just want to be open to what are the thoughts

00:29:11.040 that are going to run through my mind during this walk? You know, I'm just cute, like sort

00:29:14.400 of kind of look at it from that perspective to say, okay, I know there are going to be

00:29:17.660 a bunch of thoughts. I'll think about some of the things I see, but what are the sort

00:29:20.600 of, what am I going to ruminate on during this, during this walk and sort of just go into

00:29:24.780 it like that to get a sense for, you know, where's my mind drifting? So it's almost like

00:29:29.260 a meditation, but you know, you're just walking around, but you kind of have this, this,

00:29:33.660 you're focusing your attention on what is your mind gravitating towards? What's it

00:29:39.140 hooking onto, you know, what's, what's it looping on? What's what, you know, so I think that's

00:29:44.020 one of the ways I think that we can tap into the cues, you know, what are the things that

00:29:48.480 are bothering us? What are the things that are on the top of our mind? What's repetitive,

00:29:53.420 what's cycling through? I think another way to do it as well is a, I got this app on my phone.

00:30:00.500 It's really simple app called mind jogger. It's a free app. And what it does is you can write

00:30:07.200 into it a sentence and then, um, you pick like, okay, from 8am to 8pm, it's going to ping you 10

00:30:14.200 random times and just say, it's going to ping you with an alert and give you that sentence.

00:30:18.400 So sometimes what I'll do is let's say I'm maybe not in a great mental state. I'm trying to figure

00:30:23.700 out what's going on. Is this, am I really in a bad mental state? Am I in a good state? I don't really

00:30:27.500 know. So I put in this line, like, you know, how you doing? Or, um, there was a lot, I was listening

00:30:33.560 to another podcast and they put like, are you above or below the line? Right? Like, and the

00:30:37.500 line is just like, you know, the line of, of kind of being in a good state above and a bad state below.

00:30:43.800 And I just had it ping me like, you know, 10 times throughout the day, you know, two, three days.

00:30:48.880 And it was like 99% of the time I was in a good place, you know? And it was just like, but, but I

00:30:54.620 felt like sometimes you get a cue and it, I feel like a negative cue and I'm like, okay, this is me.

00:31:00.660 I'm in this negative state, but using this app, like there's just this random pings.

00:31:04.800 It gave me a sense of like, no, things are good. Like everything is actually going okay. There's

00:31:09.300 just, there are some things I need to work on and do. But so, so, so that was a way for me to sort

00:31:14.480 of cue in or clue into these, you know, the, the sort of state that my mind was in. And, and, um,

00:31:22.100 I use it actually. The other thing I do is I, I put in there, sometimes I'm like, I put, you can do

00:31:26.840 it. Right. I put that in. So like, you know, five times throughout the day, it just pings me and

00:31:30.880 says, you can do it, whatever I'm doing in that moment. And I can't tell you how much of like,

00:31:36.720 there's like this little rush of like positive energy that just fills me when I see that, you

00:31:41.140 know, even though I know it's me doing it to me, um, you know, it's not, not, not even anybody else

00:31:45.940 I kind of involve, but, uh, I just feel there's all these little things that we can do throughout

00:31:49.780 our day to just, you know, kind of bring in fresh energy and, and, and help us to achieve

00:31:55.180 what we want to achieve. Yeah. I'm glad you can customize that. Cause if I kept getting pinged

00:31:59.520 throughout the day, even if it was for myself, I'd probably pick up my damn phone and throw it 0.99

00:32:03.420 across the room. So I'd have to set the schedule. I'm like, leave me alone. I'm working right now. 0.99

00:32:08.300 I can't hear from you. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, um, one of the things that you said you were talking about,

00:32:15.340 uh, what, what bothers you, I think is the term that you use. And that's actually a section of

00:32:20.580 the book. You talk about get bothered, right? And I'd love for you to expand on that. Uh, and this

00:32:26.480 is something that we often talk about is there's some things in this, in this life that you're

00:32:30.560 bothered by. Uh, maybe it's some sort of injustice or some sort of problem that you've dealt with.

00:32:35.880 Maybe it's minor, maybe it's major. Uh, and you maybe have experienced that personally,

00:32:40.260 and you're in a unique position to be able to solve those problems. Uh, that has been invaluable

00:32:44.980 in my life because I don't need to solve all the problems, just the ones I'm personally bothered

00:32:50.420 by. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So this, this is a, uh, such a powerful, such a powerful tool to

00:32:58.220 really get in touch with what truly bothers you. And I think, you know, there's different kinds of

00:33:02.900 ways of looking at it, different sort of levels of being bothered. But I mean, in, in, let's say

00:33:07.700 just for now, sort of whether to think about this in the context of like your skillset or, you know,

00:33:12.680 something that you can actually do something about, like, like how you framed it. And I like

00:33:17.100 to think of it as like a pain point when you have a pain, um, you know, it, it really captivates your

00:33:22.780 attention. And when your attention is captivated, you try to lessen that pain, you know, you do

00:33:28.440 whatever you can. And so it's almost like, how do we use that then as a tool? How do we create a pain

00:33:33.640 point for a problem that we want to solve? Because as a way it's really tapping into motivation. Um,

00:33:40.280 so I'll give you an example. Um, so my laboratory was based for several years near MIT in Cambridge,

00:33:47.100 and, um, I had this opportunity to move it to the Longwood medical area, which is right in,

00:33:54.040 in Boston, right near, um, so to be right in the hospital, really in Brigham Women's Hospital,

00:33:58.620 it's like this hotbed for, for, you know, medical, new medical therapies, but also lots of, lots of

00:34:04.080 hospitals and things, you know, so we have Boston Children's Hospital is there, there's Dana Farber,

00:34:09.000 there's Beth Israel and, but, but to be in the hospital. So I, I made the move and it was

00:34:14.440 incredible because now when I go to, into my lab, I walk past many patients, like I'm seeing them

00:34:21.620 every day. Like these are the people that we're designing the therapies to treat. And that adds

00:34:26.940 an extra layer of motivation. I'm bothered by it. I'm bothered to see people, um, you know,

00:34:32.560 struggling and, you know, coming in and ambulances and, you know, having all kinds of different

00:34:37.760 ailments. And I, I see that every single day and that, you know, is sort of like tapping into this

00:34:44.200 ability to be bothered, but use that energy to then fuel me to, you know, work even harder and

00:34:51.480 smarter and really try to focus on what truly is most important in our work.

00:34:56.380 I like that. Yeah. You're intimately familiar with how your work, you're, I maybe say it this way is

00:35:01.440 that you're deeply connected to the solutions that you're providing, right? You can see them in real

00:35:07.780 time and how they're actually impacting people, which is, that's one thing I envy about people

00:35:12.040 who work with their hands. You know, you see a builder, a contractor, he can drive down the road

00:35:16.360 and say, I built that house. I built that house. I did the heating and air on that house. I did that

00:35:20.580 landscaping. I, you know, fixed that car. I love that about blue collar work and those guys who

00:35:26.680 actually work with their hands. Cause it's very tangible what they do. And there's some immense value in

00:35:31.300 that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, the, the other side of it, yeah, exactly. In the

00:35:36.040 beginning is like, they see the problem. They probably feel, you know, whatever they're, they're,

00:35:40.560 they're working on. They can feel the pain from the person who's dealing with it. And, you know,

00:35:45.700 I think, you know, as humans, we can feel each other's pain. I mean, we can feel animals pain as

00:35:50.140 well. Right. I mean, if we're sort of open to it and, and aware, but like to be able to sort of

00:35:55.080 connect on the pain and then be able to, to solve that pain. Yeah. I mean, on a daily basis as you know,

00:36:01.020 it's a pretty incredible way to live, live your life. And, and, and I think that, yeah, I mean,

00:36:07.520 to me, you know, there's, there's this social justice leader, Brian Stevenson, and I think he

00:36:12.100 just frames it really well. And he says, stay proximate, stay proximate to the problem. So

00:36:17.920 essentially, you know, if you're trying to solve a problem or if, you know, you feel a pain point to

00:36:24.000 help people who, you know, are, are there's injustice being done to them or, you know,

00:36:30.460 people who are going hungry and, you know, you want to do something about it. Like you, you want

00:36:34.200 to go into those communities and you want to feel that, that pain, because that's really going to

00:36:38.500 allow you to tap into the motivation to a maximal level so that you can, you know, really keep on track

00:36:45.020 and really do your best work. You know, conversely, there's, there's a segment of your book where

00:36:49.920 you talk about this concept of activation energy. And it was really interesting as, as you're going

00:36:55.140 through that, because you were really talking about what I, what I would say maybe synonymously

00:36:59.780 is greasing the grooves, right? Making something really, really easy because it takes an immense

00:37:05.620 amount of energy to start a new task, a new project, a new assignment. And you're talking about

00:37:12.860 cutting out all the things that would keep you from doing that by making it easy. You know, one,

00:37:17.540 one simple example of that might be, if I'm going to go work out in the morning,

00:37:21.660 I need to lay my clothes out the night before. Uh, I need to have my workout scheduled. I already

00:37:27.400 know what I'm going to do. And then I'm going to have my food and or pre-workout already ready to go.

00:37:32.740 So there's not a whole lot of extra energy that goes into me doing the thing that I'm really

00:37:37.320 committed to doing tonight. Cause tomorrow when it's 5am, it might be a different story.

00:37:42.440 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, there's so many examples like that. I mean, the example for me last summer

00:37:49.560 was, um, a friend of mine called me while he was on his bike and he's like, Jeff being on my bike is

00:37:55.460 my happy place. And I immediately was like, I have a bike. Why am I not biking? Cause it's my happy

00:38:00.660 place too. You know, like I love biking. I mean, I just feel like in some ways, sometimes just, just,

00:38:05.420 you know, exploring, you know, having no particular route, but just like on the weekend going around in

00:38:09.920 the neighborhood or, you know, doing like a 40 mile bike ride somewhere I've never gone before.

00:38:14.340 And I mean, it's just so exhilarating. And I was like, but I'm not doing it. And I was like, okay,

00:38:19.040 well, I probably, if I go home and say, I want to go for a bike ride, it's just not going to happen

00:38:23.780 because I think we get in this habit of, of, of actually practicing, not achieving our goals.

00:38:28.240 We set the goals to be too big, too grandiose. And so I think we can flip that by really breaking

00:38:35.100 things down into these tiny steps that reduce the activation energy. So just, I'll come back to

00:38:41.160 the bike in a moment, but the concept of activation energy is something that really struck me. And I

00:38:46.100 think it was like in high school where in a chemistry class, a teacher, you know, brought it to everyone's

00:38:51.680 attention when they were talking about a chemical reaction. They said, okay, put two, two chemicals in

00:38:56.240 water and they don't react. And then you add a little bit of heat and they don't react. And then you add

00:39:00.400 more heat and they start moving and a little more heat. And then they bombard together

00:39:04.200 and a reaction occurs. And that's the activation energy, how much heat you had to put or energy

00:39:09.320 into the system. And being someone who was just struggling and things. And I was like, wow,

00:39:13.900 I bet I could bring that to everything in my life, this idea of activation energy. And I started

00:39:18.760 thinking like everything I do, there's a certain amount of energy or effort I need to put into it,

00:39:23.620 but wait a moment. I could probably make it easy by lowering the activation energy. There's ways to do

00:39:29.540 that. And actually in chemistry class, you can actually do that, you know, by adding like,

00:39:32.960 you know, a catalyst or an enzyme or, you know, there's ways to actually reduce the amount of

00:39:36.700 heat you need to put in. And so in the case, you know, kind of going back to the bike,

00:39:41.220 I thought, okay, well, what can I do to make this easy? And exactly as you just said,

00:39:45.920 I got my bike, I put some air on the tires one day, next day, you know, I cleaned it up,

00:39:51.080 wiped it down. Next day, I hung my helmet on the handlebar and I put the bike right where I would

00:39:56.140 walk by it every single day. So all I needed was like 15 minutes, you know, to a free time to get

00:40:04.520 on the bike and just go for a couple of loops around the neighborhood. And this past summer,

00:40:08.480 I rode over a thousand miles.

00:40:10.360 Wow. Yeah, that's very cool. But I guess my question then is, you know, at one point,

00:40:15.400 does that become a hindrance? Because I think a lot of the times we can say we're doing the thing when

00:40:20.360 we're not actually, we're just preparing to do the thing. So, you know, for example, you might

00:40:25.560 really have a goal to call a certain amount of clients today to set up sales conversations.

00:40:32.060 And you can convince yourself, and I've done this, that studying up on how to talk with

00:40:37.840 prospects or how to cold call or go to the events or read a bunch of books on it,

00:40:43.020 you can convince yourself that you're actually doing the thing that you said you were going to do,

00:40:46.760 but you're not. You're just procrastinating in a very creative, confusing way that's not actually

00:40:54.600 moving you towards your goals.

00:40:55.780 Yeah, yeah. No, I definitely have been there before many times. And I think that, yeah, I mean,

00:41:04.080 I think that it's really about framing the steps in a particular way, you know, and sometimes you

00:41:09.780 need to create some accountability in the process. And, you know, people can do that in different ways.

00:41:16.760 You know, one way is maybe that you have a partner that you're working with or someone else,

00:41:23.540 you know, that you're friendly with, and you kind of decide, hey, we're both going to try to achieve

00:41:27.600 X this day or make it like a friendly competition or you know what I mean? Like, I feel like there's

00:41:32.000 other ways to when you sort of start to be open to those cues that you're really just stuck in the

00:41:37.100 drum rolls, and you're not like, you know, kind of moving out of them. You know, I think that's,

00:41:42.420 that's exactly an opportunity where we can say to ourselves, okay, what what are other strategies,

00:41:47.060 because I think that's another key thing that that, you know, we can all tune into is that

00:41:51.540 often, we only see a narrow range of possibilities for anything that we're doing. But, but there's

00:41:58.500 many, many, many more possibilities out there. So, you know, if you're kind of stuck in that,

00:42:04.200 you know, sort of preparation, never get to the final thing, you can start to think, all right,

00:42:08.440 well, what if I chatted with some of my colleagues and see what are their strategies, or, you know,

00:42:13.120 team up with them and sort of make a little bit of a challenge. You know, I think there's all kinds of

00:42:18.520 little techniques and things that you can do. And even just bringing your awareness to it,

00:42:22.620 like sort of thinking like, okay, I know I'm not doing what I want. I'm going to observe other

00:42:27.160 people, I'm just going to see what their strategies are. And I'm, you know, going to start to engage them.

00:42:31.500 And, you know, maybe there's certain books or things, or maybe there's other, maybe there's

00:42:36.540 even other things. Maybe, maybe it's that what you need to do is change something else in your life.

00:42:40.600 Like maybe, maybe you need to flood your brain with more positive neurotransmitters by having

00:42:44.940 more of a exercise regimen in the morning, you know, and then that will fuel you, make you feel

00:42:50.040 better. And through the day, it'll lower the activation energy to, to, to execute on, you know,

00:42:56.060 making those phone calls. Yeah. I mean, one thing I've been trying to be very conscious of lately

00:43:00.480 is tying my results that I used to just chalk up to maybe just happenstance or circumstances,

00:43:09.060 very passive to actual ways that I'm doing things, not just how I'm showing up, but things that I

00:43:16.260 might be doing with exercise, for example, or one that comes to mind is diet. Like I could, I would

00:43:22.860 love to eat a certain kind of food all day, every day, but I know, I know how that bag of chips and

00:43:30.180 salsa is going to make me feel. And I've been a lot more aware of tying the result or how I feel

00:43:35.180 physically, mentally, emotionally, to little small behaviors that I didn't use to correlate.

00:43:42.920 Yeah. Yeah. No, I've been there too. Yeah. I mean, and you mentioned the chips and the salsa,

00:43:47.760 you know, I just went for my physical and that's something that I need to cut back on exactly because,

00:43:53.760 you know, my cholesterol is going up a bit and, you know, the saturated fats that you get in the,

00:43:57.920 in these like kind of fried chips and things like that. So, and, but I think, I think there's a lot

00:44:03.580 of things like, you know, when we start to like, for me, it's like having the doctor tell me like

00:44:07.940 that sort of motivate, you know, that reduces the activation energy to be like, you know,

00:44:11.940 to see the actual data. And it's what you said, like, I think when we start to clue into how we

00:44:18.020 feel, like if there's certain foods, like I, I started drinking, for example, a friend of mine has

00:44:22.760 cacao and I started drinking it because I was like, wow, this is like a full body coffee experience.

00:44:27.520 Like it totally was like, I just felt like fully alive and I loved it. But then I was like, wait,

00:44:32.460 why is my stomach bothering me? And you know, why am I having like bloating and this isn't good.

00:44:37.500 And I was like, I didn't want it to be the cacao. So I started, you know, kind of moving other things

00:44:41.720 out and, you know, and then eventually I just, you know, it just sort of built up and I put,

00:44:47.880 I put it in a different, I basically moved it to a location like high up on the shelf where I

00:44:52.460 wouldn't see it every day when I open the drawer to, you know, make my breakfast. And, um, and sure

00:44:57.420 enough, like it, my, my stomach normalized, you know? So it's kind of like, how do we, how do we

00:45:02.860 sort of lower the activation energy by, you know, sometimes we need to move things out of our sight

00:45:08.380 because, you know, with the case of the bike, you know, seeing the bike is helpful to get on it.

00:45:12.880 But for me, seeing the cacao is not helpful to avoid it. Yeah. Are you familiar with James

00:45:18.320 clear and his work, uh, specifically atomic habits? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a fantastic book.

00:45:23.260 Yeah. I think we're talking about very similar things right here. Cause he talks about making

00:45:26.960 it more difficult to do the things that you don't want to do like drinking, for example,

00:45:31.480 just don't buy alcohol. I mean, that's not going to keep you from drinking if you really want to,

00:45:36.160 but it, it reduces your opportunity and creates a larger barrier to drinking than have you,

00:45:42.360 than if it was, you know, above, above the fridge and you can grab it on a moment's notice.

00:45:46.440 So I think creating those barriers for the things that you don't want to do, but then

00:45:49.760 greasing the grooves or looking for reducing activation energy for the things that you want

00:45:54.740 to do is going to be invaluable. But, you know, to go back to what we were saying about, um,

00:46:01.000 about taking action versus planning on taking action, right? Those are two different things.

00:46:05.360 And I think both are necessary. I also think there might be a case to be made and you correct me if I'm

00:46:10.180 wrong, uh, for the, uh, it's more of a value space decision. So a value might be, uh, one that I have,

00:46:20.380 and this one is very important for me is I value taking action, taking action towards my goals,

00:46:26.700 dreams, desires, et cetera, is something I place as a high priority. Uh, another value that might

00:46:32.840 actually conflict with that value at times is making sure that I, what I put out in the world is the best,

00:46:38.640 right? And so you have this idea of perfection. I have to put out something that's going to solve

00:46:42.840 the problems. It's going to look good. That has all of the little kinks worked out before I ever

00:46:47.060 introduce it. So I think if, if you're somebody who, and this I think is a mindset thing, but if

00:46:52.120 you're somebody who is maybe more of that analytical thinking planning type, maybe you ought to think

00:46:58.420 more about the values towards action. And if you're more like me who places a higher emphasis on

00:47:04.600 taking action, maybe it would be better for me to place a little bit higher priority on making sure

00:47:10.660 that I strategically think about what I'm offering and presenting to the world. What do you think about

00:47:16.400 that? Yeah, no, I think it's great. And, and to me, you know, one of the ways that, um, that I've,

00:47:22.280 I've, I've, um, embraced that, let's say in my laboratory, um, because I think really what you're

00:47:27.560 getting at is, is, is also this neurodiversity in terms of how we really think differently and how we

00:47:33.140 operate differently and how we define importance differently and, you know, how we structure our

00:47:38.120 days differently. And to me, um, there's this strength of being in a room with people who do

00:47:44.600 things differently and sort of observing and sort of, instead of saying like, this is my way and

00:47:49.640 that's your way, I kind of look at it and say, like, I'm curious about your way. Like, you know,

00:47:54.560 maybe I could try this and see how it works and, and, and we can find ways to be more productive,

00:48:00.200 be more purposeful. Um, you know, in my lab, just to give you an example, um, you know,

00:48:05.100 most scientific labs are populated with sort of somebody like the same discipline, you know,

00:48:09.720 like they're all biologists or immunologists or engineers. Um, but what I've tried to do is

00:48:14.420 actually populate my lab with where there's minimal overlap in the expertise of the people.

00:48:18.460 So we have chemical engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, biologists,

00:48:23.000 immunologists, we've had a gastrointestinal surgeon, we've had a cardiac surgeon, we've had a dentist

00:48:27.180 in the lab constantly changing. And so when we're sitting around a table, brainstorming,

00:48:32.460 trying to come up with ideas to solve medical problems, everybody can provide a unique perspective.

00:48:37.640 Everybody has access to information and tools and skills that others don't have. And so everyone

00:48:44.880 immediately feels validated because no one else can bring what they're bringing. And, you know,

00:48:50.100 it also maximizes the potential for us to have multiple shots on goal in terms of just all these

00:48:58.380 different ideas of technologies and how we might build them. So, so I think, I think, you know,

00:49:03.320 there, there's this, there's, there's this, um, incredible, and we can do this in our personal

00:49:08.660 lives as well. You know, like we can surround ourselves with people who do things differently

00:49:13.340 and who are maybe equally as productive or impactful, um, and start to think like, okay, maybe,

00:49:20.660 you know, maybe there's little steps that I could take to try some of the things that people around

00:49:24.920 me have been doing. And by the way, this is like the story of my life because I struggled so much

00:49:29.200 when I was a kid. I, I had to observe other people. I had to learn tools and strategies and sort

00:49:35.680 of mimic what other people were doing and experiment just, you know, to survive. And so to me, I like what

00:49:41.740 you're saying. Cause it's, it's, it's really about, um, you know, sounds like, you know, you're, you're

00:49:47.060 open to different ways of doing things and sort of this idea that if you combine something that

00:49:53.300 someone else is doing with what you're doing, you may get to a place where you're even more efficient

00:49:57.920 or more impactful in, in your work. Well, and I think it's important you're talking,

00:50:02.420 because what you're talking about is actually, you know, you hear this phrase all the time,

00:50:05.720 diversity is our strength. Well, if our diversity is based on immutable characteristics, then no,

00:50:11.460 I don't agree with that possibly, but that's not correlated. It's, it just happens to be,

00:50:18.300 you know, if you're, if you're basing diversity on the color of your skin or your sex, for example,

00:50:23.000 that doesn't necessarily give you any other advantage than if you all look the same.

00:50:28.300 But I think what you're talking about is actual diversity, diversity and experience, thoughts,

00:50:33.400 beliefs, value systems, cultural beliefs, upbringing backgrounds. And that's where it can actually

00:50:40.400 be a strength because we're coming at it with, with a different perspective. I heard a, I heard a

00:50:45.920 little anecdote one time and there was a bunch of engineers that had built this bridge and they

00:50:52.580 built this bridge around this crane. But after the fact, they realized they couldn't lower the crane

00:50:57.640 low enough to get under the beam, to get the actual crane out from underneath the bridge they built

00:51:02.480 around it. And so these engineers came in and they tried to figure out, you know, like how,

00:51:08.000 how do we lower it? What can we move? Can we bend something? Can we do this? Can we disassemble

00:51:12.480 the crane? Like, what can we do? And again, it's just an anecdote, but a little kid came by

00:51:16.940 and he walked by and he's like, well, why don't you just lower the tires, lower the air pressure on

00:51:21.520 the tires and then back it out, you know? And sure enough, lower the air pressure on the tires,

00:51:27.380 back the crane out, no problem. And I think that speaks to the diversity that you're talking about.

00:51:31.980 That's a different thing than just immutable characteristics, which is what so many people,

00:51:37.360 I think are caught up on these days. It's like, let's just look different. No, I want people who

00:51:40.960 think different. That's what I'm more interested in. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we, we've had people from

00:51:45.500 30 different countries in my laboratory. And to me, it's like every country, you know,

00:51:50.320 has a different education system, but different people are, or sort of have different ways of

00:51:54.380 thinking. And, um, you know, we're working on some really hard problems and we need all sorts of

00:51:59.120 different ways of thinking and, and different, you know, skill sets and things like that. So I think

00:52:03.380 diversity can really be enormously powerful. Um, you know, um, you know, when, when, when we sort

00:52:11.340 of, you know, when we have these teams of people who just, as you said, you know, like think

00:52:15.940 differently, uh, have different skills, different knowledge. Um, and, um, and I thrive. I mean,

00:52:21.460 the other thing that I like about that is it creates a bit of friction too, you know, like,

00:52:25.580 let's say if I have like, um, I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I'm working beside a mechanical

00:52:29.660 engineer. And now we have to, you know, we're talking to each other. There's some, some barriers

00:52:34.060 in terms of, you know, what I know and how I say things and how, what they say and what they know,

00:52:38.540 but there's also this incredible opportunity to learn from them. And I think, you know, when we

00:52:44.760 sort of embrace new things in our lives every day, um, our brains love novelty. And so, you know,

00:52:51.760 you can get that by surrounding yourself with people who think differently. Um, because then that

00:52:56.320 gets you curious and it, you know, when your curiosity starts flowing, you know, your brain

00:53:00.800 just totally lights up. Yeah, no, I, I think what you're saying is absolutely true. Diversity is not 0.99

00:53:08.340 easy. Like it's easier to find people who are exactly like you because y'all agree that's way

00:53:13.920 easier than having somebody come in who's clearly an expert in the field or knows what they're talking

00:53:18.920 about, educated, smart, intelligent, but fighting you, you know, pushing back on you. And it's,

00:53:25.460 it's really hard and that's where the humility comes in. And you talk about humility in your

00:53:29.260 book as well, but I do want to hit on something that you just mentioned. You talked about curiosity

00:53:34.640 and that is such a huge thing. Also, I think I read in the book and I can't remember if I'm

00:53:40.200 conflating this with another book I read, but the, the process of experimentation and allowing yourself

00:53:46.240 permission to play is what I call it. Like just play. We, we put such a heavy emphasis on

00:53:53.220 everything. Like if I do this and it goes wrong, the world is going to end. No, it's not going to

00:53:57.940 end. Even in a business environment, maybe you'll be out a little bit money. You'll be out a little

00:54:03.060 bit of time, but you learn something from that and giving myself permission to play, even just in

00:54:08.680 enjoyment in life, trying new things, um, has been invaluable specifically over the past six months

00:54:14.260 for me. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, um, you know, I was just in, just in Panama, I was saying, and, um,

00:54:21.540 my wife and I brought our daughter with who's 15 and, um, it's amazing like how the bonding,

00:54:27.620 let's say between me and my daughter different, you know, at home versus like on a, on a trip.

00:54:32.040 And, um, one of the things I noticed is that exactly to that point that there was just a lot more

00:54:36.260 kind of playful interaction. And, um, you know, for example, I mean, these are just kind of

00:54:41.300 perhaps ridiculous things, but like, um, you know, like, like, like at night, you know,

00:54:45.940 I was just, I like to try to come, I just randomly come up with songs in my head, you know, like,

00:54:50.220 and sometimes I don't really, you know, kind of, I mean, I, I say them in the house or whatever,

00:54:55.120 but, you know, I was just kind of coming up with raps. And so we were like rapping together,

00:54:58.740 you know, like we were coming up with raps about things we saw that day and, you know,

00:55:02.620 and it wasn't really working perfectly, but some, every once in a while, there'd be a good line,

00:55:06.740 you know? And it was just, it was this incredible, like feeling,

00:55:11.060 right. Of, of, and then bonding feeling at the same time. And I just think that there's so many,

00:55:15.660 like our culture is, is sort of, it, it sort of constrains us, you know, like it, it really like

00:55:22.260 it, the culture, like atomizes our attention. It really kind of cubes our time. And I think it like

00:55:28.500 flattens our imagination and, and, and we don't play as much as like, you know, and, and it's kind

00:55:33.200 of like, you look at kids and, and, and you just see this free flowing mist to the whole situation,

00:55:39.200 you know, it's, and so with, uh, I just find there's these, these, and even with my son too,

00:55:44.160 you know, he's 18. Um, I was thinking about the last, I mean, I feel like the play happens mostly

00:55:48.280 on the trips, you know, like when you're sort of, you have your guard down, you're not like

00:55:52.220 with the back-to-back meetings, you don't come home and you sort of have this heavy heaviness to you

00:55:56.500 because you've been through the ringer, you know, all day. Um, and I feel like, yeah, there,

00:56:00.800 there's ways that, that we can really build that more into our lives because I mean, it feels,

00:56:05.060 you know, the other thing it does, it regenerates us. Like it really rejuvenates our minds and sort

00:56:10.180 of refreshes, um, and, and, you know, lights up our brains in ways that allow us to then when we

00:56:16.420 get back to work, you know, we can think with more fresh perspectives and we have more sort of

00:56:21.180 cognitive capability and endurance, you know? Um, so I, I really think it's a, it's a great thing.

00:56:26.940 Yeah. I think that one of the biggest barriers to that play or that experimentation is just the,

00:56:31.660 the, the amount of expectations that we put on ourselves, right? I've, I've got to show up,

00:56:37.020 I've got to perform, I've got to do this, this has to play out this way. And then it becomes very

00:56:42.000 controlling and maybe even manipulative, uh, because you, you've already determined what the

00:56:47.360 outcome has to be. So anything that deviates from that in the process is a barrier to what you've

00:56:53.840 already identified in your mind. Yeah. You know, I always wonder about that with the scientific method

00:56:58.920 a little bit, you know, you, you guys as scientists, you come to the table with a hypothesis,

00:57:02.780 but you're willing, if you're an actual scientist and, and, and that's to be determined,

00:57:08.460 because I think this is permeating throughout society is that a scientist using this term loosely

00:57:13.420 will have a predetermined outcome and then they'll create a scenario or an experimentation

00:57:17.660 to prove what they've already decided is going to be. Uh, but I think the real scientific process

00:57:25.020 is this is what I think will have happened, but I'm open to something else happening.

00:57:29.540 Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, no, I like that you said that because I think that, um, I mean,

00:57:35.720 well, there's a lot there, let's just say what you've just said. I mean, I feel like we could talk

00:57:39.440 on about that for, for a long time. And, uh, and the scientific process to me is, is, is curious.

00:57:45.860 And I, I have seen that where, you know, people say, here's what I think. And then they conduct

00:57:50.720 the experiment to prove what they thought versus to determine whether, you know, are they really

00:57:56.040 trying to answer a question? Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, just, just, just sort of, um,

00:58:02.880 on your, your earlier point, I just wanted to bring up a, bring up something that, um, I think is,

00:58:07.440 you know, was relevant, um, something that I started in my lab many years ago, which is, um,

00:58:11.360 I call it the three minute presentations. And so a couple of times a year, what we do is everybody

00:58:16.620 in the lab, uh, presents on something they're curious about. Um, and we encourage people not

00:58:22.920 to present on science. Uh, they can do anything. Um, and it's a competition. And so people come in

00:58:28.300 and they present for three minutes and then there's, um, a few minutes of critiques and people

00:58:33.700 rather than ask questions about what was presented, they say, what did they like or dislike about the

00:58:38.680 presentation, the actual process of presenting. And then at the end I give like, you know, 40,

00:58:44.140 $50, like gifts, like, you know, things, things that people really want, you know, as prizes and,

00:58:49.480 you know, everybody votes on the best presenter and the best critiquer. And so we've had people

00:58:53.820 who come in and actually we were talking about rapping. Um, there was a guy who was a rapper in

00:58:58.340 my lab and, uh, he wrote a rap on all the burger restaurants in and around Boston. Um, and so that

00:59:04.720 was one thing, you know, and, and people loved it. Someone came in and break danced. Um, they were

00:59:09.620 a break dancer and they explained what break dancing was all about. Um, someone was a

00:59:13.980 surfer. They came in in a wetsuit and they talked about surfing. Um, you know, so it was like all

00:59:18.780 of these. And to me, that was like, it was, it was incredible because yeah, it was like cultivating

00:59:23.100 play. Like people were talking about what they loved, like often, you know, something they were

00:59:29.340 like, uh, um, a hobby or just something that they're really excited about. And it kind of created

00:59:34.880 this environment where people got to know each other. It just serves so many, so many goals at the

00:59:39.080 same time. Um, but it encouraged play, you know, in the, in the group, it encouraged it really,

00:59:44.940 I think, and it also instilled this like curiosity and help people to be more creative because they

00:59:51.880 get ideas from other people's presentations to try the next time, you know, and it just like, uh,

00:59:57.280 yeah, it was, it's been just, just a blast to do it. I wrote that down. I'm actually going to

01:00:01.880 incorporate that. We've got a brotherhood is what I call it, but we've got a thousand plus men that we

01:00:06.480 all work together in small teams. And I'm going to encourage our team leaders to incorporate that.

01:00:11.520 So these guys can do their three minute presentations. It's almost, it reminds me a

01:00:15.600 little bit of like show and tell when we were in elementary school and you were so excited to

01:00:20.320 present whatever your thing was. And everybody else was curious about what your thing was going to be.

01:00:24.520 That's a really cool idea. I like that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel again, it's like, um,

01:00:30.500 you know, one of the most watched Ted talks of all time, Ken Robinson,

01:00:34.600 he spoke about, he spoke about how, uh, Ken Robinson spoke about how the education system

01:00:41.500 educates us out of being creative. Um, and I think, you know, um, beyond that it educates us out

01:00:48.160 of being curious and, and it educates us even out of, uh, asking questions, you know, like all of us 0.97

01:00:53.820 have been shamed at some point in our life for asking a question and been like, Hey, that's a stupid 0.99

01:00:58.180 question. And so not only do we not ask questions as often as we, you know, could, could be productive, 0.99

01:01:04.580 and useful for us. But we, because of that, we haven't honed our skill of asking questions and

01:01:10.680 asking questions is a gateway to our curiosity and our creativity. Um, because when we ask questions,

01:01:17.660 we focus on the answers. We start to take the information that's given to us. It more easily

01:01:23.340 imprints in our minds. And then we can also connect it to what else we know. So we can do more lateral

01:01:28.540 thinking. And then when we do that, we start to think about, you know, next steps and, you know,

01:01:33.640 we start to be creative about it. Um, and, uh, and I think that to me, you know, one of the greatest

01:01:40.000 tools of all that I just use every day is, is intentional questions and, and, and it can, can

01:01:45.420 help people connect with each other as well. Um, to, you know, and then when, when you connect,

01:01:50.420 you know, listening just deepens that connection. Well, it also helps people flesh out their ideas.

01:01:55.120 You know, I've, I've presented an idea, for example, in this brotherhood I'm talking about,

01:01:58.840 and I've had guys ask me questions. I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I really hadn't thought about

01:02:04.420 that. I probably ought to think about that so that I can make sure that either I articulate this a

01:02:10.080 little bit more effectively or reconsider what it is I'm considering implementing right now. So

01:02:16.100 those questions are powerful in so many ways. Yeah, actually, if, if it's okay, I'll, I'll read you

01:02:22.240 like five sentences from the book about questions. Um, okay. Uh, so this is from lit, uh, questions

01:02:29.960 are like excavation equipment, versatile tools for action. Questions can cut like a backhoe through

01:02:36.500 old assumptions or like an archeologist trowel and brush that uncover buried artifacts or gems,

01:02:42.800 or like the sculpture's chisel that releases a masterpiece from a slab of marble, or think of

01:02:48.620 a Swiss army knife, the everything tool, a sharp question can pry the lid open on a conversation

01:02:54.200 cut to the core of a matter, tighten the screws of a loose concept. You can use a question to

01:03:00.020 accelerate a conversation or slow it down to allow time for reflection.

01:03:04.700 Hmm. Good stuff. I like that. And the book is filled with all sorts of stuff like that.

01:03:09.800 Well, Jeff, if you would let the guys know where to connect with you, obviously, you know,

01:03:13.940 we've been talking about it. Life Ignition Tools Lit is the name of the book. Uh, and I've read it.

01:03:18.740 It's a great book. I'm implementing some of these things in my own life personally. So where should

01:03:22.840 the guys go to connect with you, learn more about what you're up to and pick up their copy of Lit as

01:03:27.440 well? Absolutely. Um, yeah. So I just set up a website, just went live a couple of days ago.

01:03:33.600 It's a Jeff Karp, K-A-R-P. Um, uh, um, you know, it could be a C, but it's, it's K. 1.00

01:03:39.900 Okay. So jeffkarp.com, uh, it has all the information about the book and, and actually

01:03:45.020 a link to my lab as well. Um, we've developed all kinds of technologies like glues that can

01:03:49.300 seal holes inside a beating heart. Um, we've developed needles that stop in between the

01:03:53.640 layers of the eye to deliver gene therapy to the back of the eye. That's wild. You know,

01:03:57.880 nasal sprays that can prevent, uh, you know, that, uh, we're, we're working on to try to prevent

01:04:02.760 the transmission of airborne diseases and nanoparticles that target the brain to treat

01:04:07.100 neurological disorders and things like that. So, so many fascinating things, man. I'm excited

01:04:12.260 about the work that you're doing and I appreciate you sharing some of that in this book, but also

01:04:15.780 coming on the podcast. Thanks for joining me today. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I've really

01:04:19.600 enjoyed this conversation. Thank you. Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with Jeff Karp,

01:04:25.260 absolutely incredible man, brilliant man. Um, very intelligent, but also has a unique ability

01:04:30.860 for somebody who's as intelligent and bright as he is to articulate his ideas and concepts into

01:04:38.220 useful information, information that we is the layman, if you will, can, can implement in his life,

01:04:46.000 apply in his life and see results. So I've been using systems and elements of his system lit life

01:04:53.720 ignition tools unknowingly before I even met Jeff. And after I got to tell you reading his book,

01:04:59.180 I've implemented a lot more and I'm seeing results very, very quickly because I have these

01:05:03.700 foundations and frameworks in place. So I'd encourage you to pick up a copy of his book,

01:05:08.220 lit life ignition tools, connect with him and me on the gram, Facebook, Twitter,

01:05:12.960 wherever you're doing your social media thing, take a screenshot. As I always ask a screenshot real

01:05:17.700 quick and tag him, tag myself, let other men know what you're listening to. And then the last thing,

01:05:22.600 no more dragging our feet guys on the iron council. We're shutting down this week and I'd love to see you

01:05:26.780 inside. So you can do that at order of man.com slash iron council. All right, guys, we'll be

01:05:32.680 back tomorrow until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:05:38.340 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:05:42.920 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - March 26, 2024

JEFF KARP ｜ Energize Your Brain

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