Order of Man - JEFFERSON FISHER ｜ How to Communicate Like a Man

00:00:00.000 I've made it a personal rule that when I'm offended to simply chalk it up to people's inability to communicate effectively.

00:00:06.760 It's proven to be useful and typically correct, but how can the activity we engage in more than anything else, with the exception of sleep, be something so many men are horribly deficient with?

00:00:18.440 That's a question my guest Jefferson Fisher has spent decades understanding and over the last several years teaching over 10 million of his social media followers how to address.

00:00:30.000 Today Jefferson and I talk about avoiding miscommunication, how to be assertive in communication but not necessarily an asshole, when diplomacy and advocacy connect and contradict, why learning not to take the bait of others will serve you, learning the rules of the communication game, and why control, confidence, and connection will set you apart.

00:00:51.400 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong.

00:01:06.860 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:16.580 Men, welcome to the Order of Men podcast. Thank you for joining me. Of course, I've got another incredible, incredible podcast on the activity that we do, probably more than anything else.

00:01:29.780 And as I said in the intro, with the exception of sleep. But this one's crucial. If you are a husband, father, business owner, community leader, just a man in general, you're going to communicate, you're going to talk with people, you're going to want to work with people.

00:01:42.280 And this is a great resource for you. Now, before we get into the conversation, I just want to mention very briefly that we've got some good friends and show sponsors over at Montana Knife Company.

00:01:55.180 I am getting ready to go on a hunt in four days, I believe, as the release of this podcast. And you better believe I'm bringing my Montana Knife Company knives.

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00:02:11.400 They're actually breaking ground on a new facility as we speak. And I don't take any other knife than Montana Knife Company into the field and also in the kitchen when I start breaking down the animals that me and my family kill.

00:02:25.160 So if you're looking for a good knife that's going to work in the kitchen and in the field, look no further than Montana Knife Company. Check it out, montananifecompany.com and use the code ORDEROMAN, all one word, ORDEROMAN at checkout when you do.

00:02:38.980 With that said, let me introduce my guest. His name is Jefferson Fisher. He is a board certified personal injury attorney, but he's also a man who has built a social media juggernaut boasting over 10 million followers solely on the topic of how to communicate more effectively.

00:02:54.860 In fact, he only started publicly sharing his knowledge of effective communication from decades in the courtroom in 2022, where he records videos in his car between hearings or after work.

00:03:06.760 I've personally been a follower for years and have effectively used many of his quick hit strategies for getting people to hear you, learning how to overcome conflict, and very important, upholding personal boundaries.

00:03:19.900 That's why I'm also excited to announce that in addition to his other notable achievements, Jefferson also has a new book available for pre-order called The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More. Enjoy this one, guys.

00:03:37.060 Jefferson, so good to see you, man. Thank you for joining me on the podcast.

00:03:40.460 Great to be here, Ron. I appreciate it, brother.

00:03:43.540 Yeah, I've been a longtime follower because I'm an advocate of communication.

00:03:48.020 I'm surprised more people aren't since it's probably the one thing that we do more than anything else in our day-to-day lives, I imagine.

00:03:56.000 Yeah, it's the thing that connects all of us.

00:03:58.700 Even when you say something, you're communicating.

00:04:01.600 When you don't say something, you're communicating, too.

00:04:03.840 I think it's one of those things that it is impossible not to do.

00:04:08.300 Do you feel like the reason that maybe we struggle so much with communication is because it's such an integral part of our life

00:04:14.860 that we actually don't spend time focusing on it because it's so woven into absolutely everything that we do?

00:04:24.280 I absolutely think that's part of it.

00:04:28.160 We're so submerged in it, you don't ever feel like you have to learn it.

00:04:32.380 You learn basics of how to communicate from whoever taught you to say words as a kid,

00:04:37.560 and then you modeled their behavior.

00:04:40.740 So however you grew up hearing how arguments happen, that's pretty much how you think arguments happen.

00:04:47.160 I mean, I grew up in a household where my parents didn't really argue in front of us.

00:04:50.900 They went to their bedroom.

00:04:52.260 We knew if the bedroom door was closed and there were voices, that was off limits.

00:04:58.140 But I've also been with friends at their houses where their parents just argued right in front of us,

00:05:03.540 and that was just normal for them.

00:05:06.420 So it's definitely part of just your upbringing in that way,

00:05:10.900 but also what people get so wrong is we just never take the time to invest into it for ourselves.

00:05:18.220 We'll do cold plunges.

00:05:19.840 We're good with taking supplements,

00:05:21.120 but we just don't ever take the time to identify how we communicate and how we can improve on it.

00:05:28.280 I kind of tend to believe that outside of maybe some college education,

00:05:33.920 there probably really isn't a whole lot of, well, I'll take a step back.

00:05:38.880 College education and I would say professional presentation are probably the two realms

00:05:44.740 where most people would turn if they're looking for how to improve their communication.

00:05:50.460 But it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of other information out there other than those two resources.

00:05:54.620 Yeah, I agree.

00:05:56.440 There's just not, in terms of true resources, you're not going to find that many.

00:06:01.620 There's some books out there, but not too many heavy hitters compared to how many money books there are

00:06:08.980 or how many other mental health books there are or whatever it is.

00:06:12.540 But yeah, I would agree that until you kind of hit that professional development range in your life

00:06:18.920 that you start to go, okay, I'm interested in career advancement or now I'm a manager of X amount of people

00:06:24.900 or I'm some kind of supervisory role that now I need to take my communication more seriously

00:06:29.560 and you learn a little bit more about yourself.

00:06:33.280 Yeah.

00:06:33.480 I imagine that when you started, did you start your Instagram channel first

00:06:39.660 or are there other, before other platforms specifically regarding communication

00:06:43.800 because you're an attorney in your everyday life, but is, is your stuff primarily on Instagram,

00:06:49.880 social media, that sort of thing?

00:06:50.940 Or did you have like a podcast and a website or anything like YouTube channel, anything like that?

00:06:56.120 No, I, I, my first videos I ever did were about two years ago on Instagram and I started to make a video.

00:07:04.620 I mean, I had to Google, how do you make a reel?

00:07:06.500 And so I figured out how to do that.

00:07:10.040 And, and then I Googled, why do my videos have zero views?

00:07:13.940 So I did that for a while too.

00:07:15.860 But yeah, until I started making the communication videos of sharing what I have a passion for.

00:07:21.160 And I like that that was really the first time I had pushed a lot of these resources out.

00:07:26.600 And there's a lot of things that I teach that I believe people are hearing for the first time.

00:07:30.700 I didn't think about it that way because they, they're not seeing it in a book.

00:07:34.480 There's not a blog or other kind of podcast that's being that explicit with it.

00:07:39.700 Most of the communication advice people get, unfortunately, is just be a active listener

00:07:44.980 or be more empathetic.

00:07:46.740 And you're just like, well, what does that, what does that mean?

00:07:49.020 Be confident.

00:07:50.100 Okay.

00:07:51.160 So finding ways to actually give the more nuanced prototype blueprint of how to do it

00:07:58.760 is, helps a lot more people in my opinion.

00:08:01.800 It does for me personally.

00:08:03.340 I know I work best under frameworks and you always present a really polished framework

00:08:08.780 for the way to communicate effectively rather than just be nice or be empathetic

00:08:12.780 or listen twice as much as you talk, that sort of thing.

00:08:16.200 It's like, here's the three things that you can do.

00:08:18.300 Like for example, I just saw one about assertive communication where what stood out to me is start with the result.

00:08:26.780 So at the end of this discussion, I would like to have accomplished X, Y, or Z.

00:08:32.380 And those frameworks really help take these loose concepts and distill them down into practical steps that people can take.

00:08:42.460 I appreciate that, man.

00:08:43.920 I agree with you that a lot of communication tips are like that concept of, oh, you need to be mindful.

00:08:50.360 What does that mean?

00:08:52.120 It sounds good.

00:08:52.780 But what is, what do I do with it?

00:08:55.260 And so when I started making these videos, I wanted to make sure that I'm giving them very practical.

00:09:01.520 They can use it right away.

00:09:02.920 I always think of one person that I'm talking to when I'm making these.

00:09:06.000 And it's like part of being assertive.

00:09:09.420 I have lots of videos on being assertive because there's lots of ways to do it.

00:09:12.400 But if I say you want to be upfront, then you need to start with the back.

00:09:16.520 Tell people how you want the conversation to end.

00:09:18.780 That's about as upfront as you can be rather than, it's like what my old trial professor used to say.

00:09:26.780 There's the front door.

00:09:27.800 That's what it's there for.

00:09:28.680 Just go through the front door rather than trying to sneak around the house and go, oh, are you good?

00:09:33.800 Everything all right?

00:09:34.460 Before you're actually saying what you want to say.

00:09:37.100 Well, I think it's refreshing when you can get to that point of being able to effectively communicate your thoughts, needs, and desires.

00:09:45.540 And I also think it's very refreshing when you're with someone, whether it's a romantic relationship or a platonic friendship,

00:09:52.040 where they're just willing to be direct with you and you don't have to guess what the person is thinking.

00:09:57.920 I mean, that is such a comforting, great place to be that I think few people have actually ever been there.

00:10:07.000 Yeah.

00:10:07.400 I mean, anytime – I think most guys have – maybe you're in a dating scene, guys and girls.

00:10:13.920 You're in dating and you run across that one person who just tells you what they're thinking right out of the gate

00:10:19.060 or they're very upfront of this is how I'm feeling or this is what I want.

00:10:22.660 You're going, thank you.

00:10:23.600 God, I mean, I know that there's definitely that – it's that fear of the unknown.

00:10:29.920 I mean, it's like getting that text, we need to talk, period.

00:10:35.820 Nobody – it's just – it's automatically you go to the worst possible thing it could be.

00:10:40.960 Oh, no, what did I do wrong?

00:10:42.560 I mean, it's just – it's the worst.

00:10:44.260 It's just – so when you can be very direct and upfront in a way that you're communicating your wants and your needs

00:10:50.480 and you can – I mean, I believe there are ways to have healthy masculine conversation.

00:10:55.640 That does not mean you're being disrespectful.

00:10:57.640 That does not mean that you're trying to be superior in every aspect of the world

00:11:01.880 to where you can be just as respectful as you can be but yet be just as upfront as you have to be to get your point across.

00:11:13.800 Right.

00:11:14.640 Yeah, I mean, I'm in a relationship right now.

00:11:16.560 We've been dating for a little over 10 months and I remember the day that I asked her that I wanted to be exclusive.

00:11:21.320 We were sitting in a restaurant and I said, hey, you know, here's where I'm coming from.

00:11:25.760 Here's how I'm feeling.

00:11:27.840 I've been dating other people but I don't want to do that in fairness to them and in fairness to you.

00:11:33.120 I want to spend time with you.

00:11:34.400 And she was like, what?

00:11:37.020 Yeah.

00:11:37.600 I said, what do you mean what?

00:11:39.780 And she's like, well, first of all, she said, you're dating others?

00:11:42.440 I said, yeah, we never talked about being exclusive so I am dating other people.

00:11:46.080 And she said, well, thank you for telling me nobody's ever been that upfront with me.

00:11:50.620 That's weird to hear.

00:11:52.760 It's refreshing.

00:11:54.200 And let me tell you what, it's attractive.

00:11:56.100 It really is.

00:11:57.020 It's an asset in your tool belt because it's attractive for any quality of a human that you just like to be around is somebody who's going to be that direct with you in a way that is not off-putting but is actually a, God, thank you for telling me, finally, somebody who's going to communicate with me in a way of how it should go.

00:12:19.380 So, right.

00:12:20.680 I also think it takes a level of maturity on both parties' part, which is kind of hard to find sometimes.

00:12:26.540 You know, I think about, again, with her, I sent her a message this morning.

00:12:29.840 I said, hey, would you like to do something tonight?

00:12:31.380 And she came back and said, no, I'm going to spend some time with my daughter and I'm going to do some things around the house that I've been putting off.

00:12:38.540 And I just need some quiet and alone time.

00:12:41.000 Cool.

00:12:41.760 That's perfect.

00:12:42.420 I have no problem with that.

00:12:43.500 Yeah, it's perfect.

00:12:44.080 It's fine.

00:12:44.540 I'm like, I don't have to guess about how she feels.

00:12:47.600 I don't worry.

00:12:48.300 Does she like me, love me, care about me?

00:12:50.440 It's, no, she just wants some alone time because she has a track record of just speaking what's on her mind in a respectful way.

00:12:57.840 And it's really refreshing.

00:12:59.660 It is.

00:13:00.360 It is.

00:13:00.900 That's a great word to use, refreshing.

00:13:03.000 Anytime you're communicating with somebody who's on the other side of the table and you're in the same rhythm, you're in the same frequency, you're able to communicate with this person and get it.

00:13:14.520 It is refreshing when you feel that way.

00:13:17.420 Some of the best relationships and friendships that I have are the ones that we're able to communicate the best, period.

00:13:25.920 I mean, you can like somebody and not like somebody solely on how you communicate.

00:13:30.620 Now, I've had it where, you know, I'm talking to an opposing counsel by email and, God, this guy's just a jerk by email.

00:13:37.740 I pick up the phone and he's as happy and cool as we're talking right now.

00:13:42.380 And so he's just like, okay, I know I'm going to cut off that communication line.

00:13:46.340 We're not going to communicate that way.

00:13:47.960 We're going to go through a phone call.

00:13:49.720 That's how we're going to communicate.

00:13:51.000 So sometimes you have to find that rhythm with people of what's going to be the best way to communicate.

00:13:56.040 And also being very quick to address and quick to forgive.

00:14:01.200 Those are the top two in my mind.

00:14:03.380 If you want to improve any communication, it's quick to address, quick to forgive.

00:14:08.140 Because the longer – if you delay addressing it, that causes problems.

00:14:12.760 If you delay forgiveness and having that conversation, it causes problems.

00:14:18.540 Because there's nothing more draining and unrefreshing as when you just feel like you're in that cyclone of, God, can we just get over this hump?

00:14:26.920 I've said – I've communicated.

00:14:28.680 What do you want?

00:14:29.420 And the other person is like, well, I just can't understand how you – they just want to continue to sit in the pit.

00:14:37.140 And that brings a whole lot of problems.

00:14:39.080 But it sounds like you're doing it the right way, my man.

00:14:40.480 Sometimes.

00:14:43.720 I just – I gave you one example of it going well, but I have a thousand examples of it not going well.

00:14:50.020 So the other thing, too, I've noticed is that for a lot of guys that I work with and talk with on a daily basis, it just – when they have this conversation that needs to be had, whether it's something as minor as, hey, hon, I don't like the way that you addressed me earlier this morning.

00:15:04.860 It's something major like, hey, we've got to talk about my infidelity.

00:15:11.700 I mean there's a broad range of things that would need to take place, those types of conversations.

00:15:16.420 But the amount of figurative weight that is lifted from your shoulders when you finally say what needs to be said.

00:15:22.660 And what I've realized is that more often than not, when you do share openly, you walk away thinking, why didn't I just do that earlier?

00:15:33.500 It wasn't as bad as I made it out to be in my mind.

00:15:36.680 Yeah.

00:15:37.980 I see this a lot with people not wanting to deliver bad news, really with anything.

00:15:43.640 It was something sensitive, something they're hesitant about to share.

00:15:48.320 It's that pit of dread.

00:15:49.640 Like, let's say, Ryan, you're going to have to fire somebody today.

00:15:53.880 You knew you were going to have to do it a week ago, and you've just been putting it off.

00:15:58.320 And you think about it when you shower in the morning.

00:16:00.680 Today is going to be the day, and you're going to get something to eat, and, God, I can't do it today.

00:16:04.200 And you find some reason not to do it.

00:16:06.180 And then when you actually have that conversation with somebody, when you do it the right way, you realize, oh, that wasn't that bad.

00:16:12.060 Instead, when you carry those problems, they're just living in your head rent-free.

00:16:15.560 And I think guys have a very hard time sometimes explaining things the right way when they want to address, because they don't want to seem too aggressive.

00:16:25.960 They don't want to seem too overbearing in that way.

00:16:29.500 At the same time, they don't want to sound too weak.

00:16:31.740 So it is a – you can get yourself in a trap in a hurry when you're just continually thinking to yourself, I've got to say this.

00:16:41.020 But then you realize once you do, it wasn't that bad at all.

00:16:43.660 So, yeah.

00:16:45.120 Do you have some heuristics or methods of approaching those difficult conversations where a guy needs to have that conversation?

00:16:55.240 You know, you hear things like, you know, bring up the positive first and then, like, throw it down easy.

00:17:00.640 I mean, you hear these types of things, but, yeah.

00:17:03.700 Yeah, I've always thought the sandwich didn't taste very good.

00:17:06.860 I like to communicate things in terms of a frame.

00:17:13.340 And this is probably one of the most powerful tools you can have when it comes to having a difficult conversation.

00:17:20.260 And that is you tell them what you want to talk about, you tell them how you want it to end, and then you get your buy-in into it.

00:17:29.620 So let's say, Ryan, you and I are working on a team.

00:17:36.540 I have some kind of a little bit more supervisory role in this, and I need to address something serious with you.

00:17:41.280 I could come to you and say, Ryan, I need to talk about the comments you made at last Thursday's meeting.

00:17:47.320 And at the end of this conversation, I need to know that's not going to happen again.

00:17:51.380 Sound good?

00:17:53.120 You're going to go, sounds good.

00:17:54.520 And then we get to actually talk about it.

00:17:56.380 Now I got your buy-in.

00:17:57.980 Now, in a weird way, it's like a verbal contract to where you feel like you're – we don't have to worry about any other issue.

00:18:03.840 We know that this is solely the frame.

00:18:05.820 This is what we're going to talk about.

00:18:06.880 Now, you compare that with what I just like to call a very upfront sentence, meaning any difficult conversation you need to have – and you're going to – I use these all the time.

00:18:19.560 You just tell them – you label the conversation itself.

00:18:23.220 So I might start with, Ryan, this is going to be a difficult conversation.

00:18:27.780 As easy as that.

00:18:29.360 This isn't going to be fun to talk about.

00:18:31.980 This may come as a shock to you.

00:18:34.140 This is going to be hard for us to discuss.

00:18:36.920 Whenever you say those things and kind of give them a little bit of a pause, they kind of gather themselves up and ready themselves rather than this wandering, hey, so you know how we've been dating for like six months?

00:18:51.940 And it's been great.

00:18:52.660 Really, it has.

00:18:53.760 And all of a sudden, they're just like – they start losing their mind.

00:18:56.380 They start spinning in circles.

00:18:57.740 You're not going fast enough.

00:18:59.120 But you're trying to be kind.

00:19:00.640 You're trying to let them down easy.

00:19:03.040 No, it's a terrible, painful thing for them to go through.

00:19:07.280 Instead, you just need to be very upfront right out of the gate.

00:19:10.240 This isn't going to be fun for us to talk about or you're not going to like this or this is going to be hard to discuss.

00:19:14.820 That's going to go way better than trying to hem and haul, as they say.

00:19:20.400 Yeah, I think that's a really good point because I think when you do what you call the sandwich thing where it's compliment, critique, compliment type framework, it's really all you're doing.

00:19:31.660 And people aren't dumb.

00:19:33.140 No.

00:19:33.440 You're just teeing people up.

00:19:35.180 So it's like if you came to me and said, hey, Ryan, look, I wanted to talk with you.

00:19:40.800 I think you're a great podcast.

00:19:43.120 And I'm like, oh, cool.

00:19:43.940 I'm all excited.

00:19:44.840 And you're like, but I don't want to be on your show.

00:19:46.920 Yeah, everybody's waiting for the hammer.

00:19:47.940 You got it.

00:19:48.480 It's like, dude, I already knew that was coming.

00:19:50.780 So why don't you just leave with that and not waste anybody's time?

00:19:53.740 Exactly.

00:19:54.140 Or part of that advice is not to start with the small talk.

00:19:59.980 Don't start with the pleasantries of when you sit down and somebody goes, so how are things?

00:20:05.420 You good?

00:20:06.160 Everybody, kids are good?

00:20:07.260 People are healthy?

00:20:08.040 Man, this weather, it's crazy, right?

00:20:09.280 Yeah, what are we doing here?

00:20:10.780 Come on.

00:20:11.260 And then here's what they say.

00:20:13.040 They'll say, oh, this weather's crazy, right?

00:20:15.120 So listen, you know how just that right there, the so listen, it's a little bit more of a tone.

00:20:22.740 And what it's communicating is everything I just asked about, it was just fluff.

00:20:26.520 It doesn't really mean anything.

00:20:28.320 I just didn't want to get right into the conversation, what we needed to discuss.

00:20:32.940 But everybody knows.

00:20:34.540 I mean, everybody has this sixth sense of, that's not why you called me in here.

00:20:39.200 So anytime it's a start with a high positive, people are thinking, what's wrong the entire time?

00:20:46.460 When's it coming?

00:20:47.040 To me, when you say that, and as we talk about this, it just seems like it's just more respectful.

00:20:55.620 You know, sometimes we'll say, and I've caught myself doing this, where I'll say, well, I care so much about this person, I don't want to hurt them.

00:21:02.600 If I'm being honest, though, when I'm doing it that way, the improper way, I would say, is I'm not so much concerned with their feelings as much as I'm concerned about how I feel about their feelings.

00:21:13.420 So it's more about me than it is about them.

00:21:16.140 Oh, man, that's such a good point.

00:21:17.600 Yes.

00:21:17.860 So anytime you are afraid to be direct with that person to deliver that bad news, what you're really saying is that you don't believe they have enough emotional resiliency, where they have to rely upon you and your communication skills to gently put them on a cloud and make them feel better somehow after the conversation.

00:21:41.100 When it's much more, when you're direct, it can be much more kind in a way.

00:21:49.040 It's much more respectful to just say what you need to say right out of the gate rather than try to come at it indirectly.

00:21:54.940 When you're considering having these types of conversations, how much time do you give a person to sit on it?

00:22:04.180 Because this might be a selfish question, but I'm a little bit of an anxious attachment by nature.

00:22:10.380 So if something needs to be addressed, I want to address it now, but I might not be in the position to do it now.

00:22:16.640 So I might send a text or an email or something, and then I realize, ah, read the room, man, bad timing.

00:22:23.680 But I want to address it so quickly.

00:22:26.060 You know, if you want to have a conversation, for example, with your wife, do you call her midday and say, hey, hon, I'd like to talk tonight?

00:22:32.500 Yeah.

00:22:33.100 Because then you're just teeing her up for five hours of misery.

00:22:37.020 Exactly.

00:22:37.380 But also you do want to carve out time to have maybe a serious conversation.

00:22:43.760 Yeah, I am in favor of it.

00:22:45.340 The more serious it is, the farther it needs to go out.

00:22:48.560 Meaning if I need to have a conversation with somebody and it's a serious one, I'm scheduling it out like two to three days from now.

00:22:58.820 Unless there's something immediate that is happening today in my life, in their life, or whatever this decision is, and we need to make it ASAP, that's different.

00:23:08.440 But if it is something serious that I've been chewing on and I want their input on, I'm scheduling it two to three days out.

00:23:15.660 But I'm letting them know right then, hey, I'd like to set aside some talk to talk about the budget.

00:23:21.500 Does that sound good?

00:23:22.240 Can we do that on Friday?

00:23:23.420 Do you have any windows on X day?

00:23:25.260 And it's like two to three days out.

00:23:26.580 If you do it the same day, that just means all you're doing for the next several hours until that happens is that's all you're thinking about.

00:23:34.920 And that's all they're thinking about.

00:23:36.480 And you're setting yourself up to unload on them.

00:23:38.600 But time is a wonderful friend.

00:23:41.520 Often what you're worried about today, you're not worried about tomorrow.

00:23:45.780 And a lot of things that mattered today won't matter tomorrow.

00:23:49.040 So it helps diffuse things.

00:23:52.680 And time is a great sifter to where these things that mattered so much, a week from now, they don't seem that big of a deal at all.

00:24:00.380 How much of a consideration do you give to other people's communication style?

00:24:07.700 So for me, for example, I want to know if you if you said, hey, Ryan, I'd like to talk.

00:24:14.340 Let's say we're business partners.

00:24:16.160 And you said, hey, Ryan, we need to talk about our partnership and the direction and these sorts of things.

00:24:21.740 I have these, you know, cognitive distortions where I jump to conclusions, worst case scenario.

00:24:26.680 That's my anxious attachment coming out.

00:24:29.200 My communication style is, hell no, we're not waiting three days.

00:24:33.420 We're like you had a problem.

00:24:34.840 Let's address it right now.

00:24:36.360 So how much of that consideration goes into your decision making process with how you communicate with other people?

00:24:43.100 Well, if I know what their personality is like, I think you should certainly tweak that.

00:24:48.460 My point is the bigger the issue, the more time you need to let it cook, so to speak, not get worse, but figure out and sift it what's going to be most important.

00:25:01.860 Now, there's nothing wrong, Ryan, if it's like, hey, man, you have any window today in about two hours for us to visit about something?

00:25:08.040 That's not a problem at all.

00:25:09.320 As long as you're working on both people's time frame, the problem is when I am trying to communicate on just my time frame and not yours, or vice versa.

00:25:21.660 If somebody comes by, knocks on the door and says, hey, Ryan, you got five minutes, and really what they mean is you have about 45 minutes for me to waste your time.

00:25:28.560 So there are ways that you can figure out what's going to be the most significant issue.

00:25:33.840 I very much agree to your point of you need to weigh everybody's different personality, or, well, I'm going to say and, I would add a filter into what that communication is.

00:25:48.360 So if I just say, hey, Ryan, I'd like to talk about something really important to me tomorrow.

00:25:54.660 That sounds good.

00:25:55.640 There's that unknown.

00:25:57.240 You create more anxiety, the more unknown, the less you know about it.

00:26:02.440 So if I were to explain, hey, this is what I'd like to talk about, and at the end of this meeting, this is why I'm wanting to visit, that's giving you a lot more framework to take out that fear and that anxiousness of what are we going to talk about?

00:26:16.860 Is this big?

00:26:17.340 Is this not big?

00:26:18.080 Is that going to change our dynamic?

00:26:20.300 Is it going to change the relationship?

00:26:21.580 Is it going to change the future?

00:26:22.940 The more you can give up front of what you're wanting to talk about and give them a preview.

00:26:27.120 And for some people that I know in my life, especially people that, say, have ADHD, I need to be very upfront of, hey, this isn't a big deal.

00:26:36.220 This isn't a groundbreaking thing at all.

00:26:37.920 Nobody's upset.

00:26:38.820 I just want to make sure that we talk about X, Y, and Z.

00:26:41.100 Sound good?

00:26:41.460 They just need to hear that there's no fire, there's no alarms, there's no – you don't need to bring in the fire trucks.

00:26:51.160 Just to communicate with them, this is what this is.

00:26:54.320 Because if I just leave it out to the open of, hey, I need to talk with you tomorrow, period, that fear of, oh, no, where are we going to talk about it?

00:27:01.000 It's going to be the worst thing ever.

00:27:02.460 Give them much more of a preview.

00:27:03.780 It's, again, back to our point, it's respectful and it's kind.

00:27:08.040 Yeah, I know if people did it short with me and my personality, I'd go scorched earth.

00:27:13.700 I would blow things up ahead of time, beforehand, self-fulfilling prophecy because that's something I know about myself and something I'm actively working against, I guess you would say.

00:27:28.020 But I think what you're saying here is just to be respectful, that's – I guess the hard thing is you also have to be respectful of other people and their desires.

00:27:37.960 I'm thinking about a scenario when you said this where I previously dated a woman and things weren't going well and we both knew it wasn't going well.

00:27:48.720 And it kind of came to a head and we didn't talk for a day or two and I sent her a message.

00:27:53.840 I said, hey, I would like to talk with you tonight about the relationship.

00:27:58.020 And she said, is this a breakup?

00:28:02.060 Is this a breakup conversation?

00:28:04.020 And I'm like, well, shit, I can't lie to her.

00:28:07.240 And I mean she's asking me and so I said, yes, it is.

00:28:12.000 That's what I sent back.

00:28:13.860 And she said, no need to have a conversation.

00:28:16.820 We're good.

00:28:17.580 Don't text me again.

00:28:18.800 The hard part of that for me is I actually wanted to have a conversation with her to come to some mutual understanding so it wouldn't be horrible.

00:28:28.480 I would have liked to have done that.

00:28:31.220 The hard part was respecting that she didn't want to do that and I had to respect that.

00:28:37.020 Yeah, it's hard when the other person on the other end of the line doesn't want to engage in that.

00:28:43.920 I mean for her, from her side, it's probably it's hurt, it's pain.

00:28:48.060 She knows it's going to end.

00:28:48.960 Of course.

00:28:49.660 It's like going into a movie you know is going to be terrible.

00:28:52.320 I mean why watch it at all?

00:28:53.900 Well, so those are hard.

00:28:57.440 Anytime it's romantic in that way, it's very, very difficult.

00:29:02.080 But I would say, I mean props to you for answering the question honestly.

00:29:09.260 There's some people who wouldn't be that honest who would just say, well, I'm not sure.

00:29:13.680 I don't know.

00:29:14.480 Maybe.

00:29:15.300 Let's see.

00:29:16.580 But you were very upfront about it and I think that's respectful in the end.

00:29:20.900 You're not having to waste anybody's time.

00:29:22.860 I mean unfortunately, she didn't want to be part of that conversation.

00:29:27.460 To not be part of it takes away from the learning opportunities that are in it.

00:29:34.020 Yeah.

00:29:34.720 No, that's true.

00:29:35.980 But again, it just comes back to like, man, you have to do what you can do to the best that you can

00:29:41.400 and let other people make adult decisions, whether they're good or bad.

00:29:45.200 They're adults and they can make their own decisions.

00:29:47.880 Absolutely.

00:29:48.320 You can only control what you can control.

00:29:51.300 That's it.

00:29:52.320 Whether it's a difficult conversation, a heated argument, it's all about how you control you

00:29:59.040 rather than controlling the other person.

00:30:01.940 You put so much content out on Instagram specifically and that's where I follow you.

00:30:07.460 I imagine you're on other platforms, but that's where I follow you primarily.

00:30:10.900 Does that, do you get, where does that inspiration come from?

00:30:15.740 Is it clients that you're working with?

00:30:17.440 Is it courtroom experience?

00:30:18.620 Is it user questions?

00:30:20.700 Where is all that information coming from?

00:30:22.480 It comes from a lot of different places, mostly just the experience of my life.

00:30:27.860 Ryan, I've had a really unique childhood in the sense that I'm the fifth generation.

00:30:35.740 I'm a fifth generation attorney.

00:30:38.340 So, and I'm the oldest of my generation and I'm the oldest of four.

00:30:42.900 So very early on, a lot of responsibility.

00:30:46.300 I got picked up from school and got put in my dad's deposition so he could finish it.

00:30:50.540 You know, I just grew up hearing that.

00:30:53.500 I grew up in the courtroom.

00:30:54.700 I grew up knowing judges.

00:30:55.960 I just, that was just my world.

00:30:57.920 And so I heard a lot of storytelling, a lot of ways of handling disagreements in a very diplomatic way.

00:31:07.760 And that influenced me heavily.

00:31:11.260 I'm also kind of like this old soul mentality.

00:31:14.120 You know, I just, I, I didn't thrive in the go buck wild type of mentality.

00:31:19.840 I just, I, I never really had that chance.

00:31:22.860 I was always ingrained in me to set the example.

00:31:26.400 Well, as an attorney myself, married with kids, I've always loved communication.

00:31:33.100 And it's just been a gift of many, of many ways.

00:31:37.780 I mean, this is a gift that my parents have prayed for.

00:31:40.300 This is a gift that I feel that it's my job to my responsibility to use and share.

00:31:46.560 Because the stuff that I share, I don't get from anybody.

00:31:49.080 There's not a book I read.

00:31:50.680 There's not a, it's not some kind of class or conference I attended.

00:31:55.140 It's, it's stuff I come up with to share in between leaving the office and going to my car before I head home.

00:32:04.460 Of course, talking with clients and teaching them a lot of these concepts, it does the same thing.

00:32:08.820 I was already doing it.

00:32:09.960 I just decided, hey, why not put some of this out on the internet?

00:32:13.500 Maybe I could help more people.

00:32:14.500 And that's how it slowly just began to, to grow.

00:32:18.000 And I've always stuck with the, the one, two, three, and just kept consistent with it.

00:32:22.640 And hope I've been able to help a lot of people.

00:32:26.180 Man, I'm going to hit pause on the conversation briefly.

00:32:28.600 Obviously, as you might know, I have big goals.

00:32:31.280 I know you do too.

00:32:32.600 And one thing I've realized is that if I personally am going to achieve the goals of growing this movement to reclaim and restore masculinity, then we're going to need to enlist additional help.

00:32:42.960 And one thing you'll see in this men's space is typically a central figurehead driven by pride and ego.

00:32:51.040 Those movements will fall.

00:32:52.720 They're going to fail.

00:32:53.620 They do things alone, don't work well with others.

00:32:56.320 They're scarcity minded people.

00:32:58.300 But this movement is the antithesis of that.

00:33:00.640 And that's why I've decided to band with Larry Hagner, Connor Beaton, and Matt Boudreau to bring you an event unlike any other.

00:33:08.940 May 1st through the 4th, 2025 is our first ever combined event.

00:33:13.680 And when you get signed up, you're going to get the best of four movements in one single event designed to change your life.

00:33:20.780 If you want to know more about this event and the experience and what we're going to be doing and the other participants, get registered or at least go check it out.

00:33:30.560 Spots are filling up quickly.

00:33:31.900 Head to themensforge.com.

00:33:34.660 That's themensforge.com.

00:33:37.860 Do that right after this conversation.

00:33:40.240 For now, let's get back to it, Jefferson.

00:33:43.380 The only correction I'd make to your statement from my point of view is slowly.

00:33:47.780 You're talking two years.

00:33:49.220 You have nearly 6 million followers on Instagram.

00:33:52.820 So it hasn't been real slow in the grand scheme of things.

00:33:56.820 Well, yes, in terms of growing the social media following.

00:34:00.920 Yeah, absolutely.

00:34:02.880 It's been.

00:34:03.880 But in terms of how my framework for how I communicate, how I communicate and what I say, that's been a long experience of just what's been built into my brain.

00:34:16.320 My dad's very diplomatic, and he has an attorney's brain.

00:34:20.020 My mom is a teacher and very kind.

00:34:22.280 And so it's this meld of they poured a lot of themselves into me.

00:34:26.880 And I love being the big brother in my family.

00:34:30.440 I'm very close with my siblings and helping out.

00:34:34.040 I've always been the dad of my friend group.

00:34:36.180 You know what I mean?

00:34:36.740 It's just I'm always the responsible one.

00:34:40.560 Yeah, well, I think that's fair because a lot of the times people will look at your success on social media with the information you put out there and think, oh, this guy's an overnight success.

00:34:52.920 And yet they overlook, and maybe I did in a way, too, the decades of work and schooling and experience and conversations and struggle and all of other things that go into what makes you a success today.

00:35:07.740 Yeah, that's a fair point.

00:35:09.920 There's a lot of – I've been an attorney for over 10 years, so it is – I've had a lot of trials.

00:35:15.720 You don't get board certified without having a whole lot of trials.

00:35:19.500 And I've had a lot of successes, and it's been wonderful.

00:35:23.700 I just didn't start putting it out on social media until I left being a partner at a big firm, went off and started my own firm, and realized, hey, like we're youngish guys.

00:35:36.300 I need to come up with some social media.

00:35:38.880 And I started making stuff about my law firm, realized I didn't like that.

00:35:42.720 I just felt salesy, I felt cheesy, just didn't feel like me.

00:35:46.940 And so I thought, well, what's something that I could share that I'd like to talk about?

00:35:51.720 And I feel like I know more than anybody in my circle that I knew.

00:35:55.560 So I made my first How to Argue Like a Lawyer video, hoping I could help people teach them how to argue and communicate.

00:36:02.620 And I had zero idea.

00:36:04.520 At that point in time, Ryan, I had maybe 800 followers that were all just friends from high school or college and law school.

00:36:10.720 And when I first had my first 1,000 views on a video, I lost my mind.

00:36:16.100 I couldn't even fathom it.

00:36:17.400 When I reached 1,000 followers, I was like, this is crazy.

00:36:21.480 I had no concept of what it would be right now.

00:36:25.500 Yeah, I imagine that's the case.

00:36:27.540 We have similar stories because I was in financial planning, and I started a podcast for financial planning.

00:36:33.180 And I love podcasting, but I realized quickly, I was a lot like you.

00:36:38.760 I'm like, I don't want to talk about that.

00:36:40.520 I want to talk about something different or more meaningful to me.

00:36:44.520 And so that's when we started Order of Man nine and a half years ago.

00:36:48.060 Nine and a half years ago?

00:36:49.500 Dude, that's incredible.

00:36:51.360 That's awesome.

00:36:52.100 Yeah, it's been a good ride.

00:36:52.560 I can relate to that.

00:36:53.600 It's that nobody wants to be sold to, and I definitely don't want to be in a position where I just feel like I'm selling my services the whole time.

00:37:01.380 That's why I don't make anything on my legal services or clients and cases that I have.

00:37:06.340 I've gotten this amount of verdict.

00:37:08.300 Leave that to the billboard attorneys.

00:37:11.920 You can help way more people doing what we're doing right now.

00:37:15.360 Yeah, no, I love it.

00:37:16.500 But you said a word that I'm really interested in.

00:37:19.500 You were talking about diplomacy with your father being a diplomat, and I imagine that's a lot of the work that you do now because there's attorneys that you're not only expected and have a desire to work with, but also at times work against, directly against.

00:37:35.860 So how do you handle that diplomacy and build a reputation with other people in your industry of being a fierce competitor maybe, and maybe you'd use different verbiage, but also a fair, trustworthy individual?

00:37:53.820 Yeah, in the legal world, it is an odd occupation because I'm hired to have beef with people I don't personally have beef with.

00:38:07.780 Yeah, I get hired to handle other people's problems, and then what makes it even more difficult is somebody else hires someone to have problems with me.

00:38:16.580 So it's where the other attorney and I were removed from really the true problems of attorney to attorney.

00:38:24.140 We don't have any problems with each other, and the bad attorneys are the ones that just choose to make everybody the enemy when we're just all doing the same thing.

00:38:32.080 We're just being an advocate.

00:38:33.520 So that's really the key is you are advocating on behalf of somebody else.

00:38:39.020 Maybe they win, maybe they lose, but you're going to do all you can, gather all the facts, all the arguments to advocate their position for a judge or a jury to decide on.

00:38:50.500 That's why I think it's critical as part of that diplomacy mindset is that you have something to learn, not something to prove.

00:38:59.240 And you are continually trying to hone the stone of being able to not see arguments as something to win, but see them as something to unravel.

00:39:11.680 And the attorneys that I work best with, they're friends like you and I, just talking, and then we can talk about these cases.

00:39:19.220 And I can say, well, this is what I got with this one, and here are my bruises.

00:39:22.220 And they're going to say, yeah, well, I kind of got the same thing.

00:39:24.660 Well, I think we can.

00:39:25.680 And you start talking about it.

00:39:26.880 But when people start to draw and have this ego, plenty of guys with ego in, as you can imagine, in the legal space, who just think that a win-loss record is everything or how much money they've won on something is any definition or sign of how good of an attorney they are.

00:39:47.380 I think it's a very important thing to, what is it Teddy Roosevelt said, just to walk quietly with a big stick.

00:39:55.720 Like, it's to have that sense of confidence, but also that sense of humility and quiet about you.

00:40:03.960 I think in many ways it's a very bold move.

00:40:07.660 I think that's one of the things that I've gathered from your videos is you seem like a kind person, but also very bold, very assertive, very courageous, and very sure of yourself.

00:40:17.320 Whereas you can have somebody who I would equate more with being nice, and those are different to me, kind and nice.

00:40:24.980 But then you also have bullies, and those people – on social media, it's funny.

00:40:29.480 You see a video, and it's funny, but it's not real endearing.

00:40:33.180 It's not somebody I'd want to spend a whole lot of time with.

00:40:35.600 Exactly. They do it for the laugh and the like, and that's – and what kind of community are they growing anyway?

00:40:41.560 What kind of following are they really putting out there when they make these videos that are just bullying other people?

00:40:48.580 Yeah, I agree. There's definitely – it reveals some things about the content of one's character, whatever message and legacy you want to leave.

00:40:58.700 I mean, what you're doing right here with this podcast, you're leaving a legacy.

00:41:02.580 Every video that I have, I try to keep in my head that my kids will see these one day.

00:41:08.600 I could roll over and die tomorrow.

00:41:11.940 I still have something that leaves a legacy for my kids and my family.

00:41:17.040 So that depends how – where your true north is and how you run your life.

00:41:23.220 Yeah. So I want to go back to what you were talking about with working with other attorneys.

00:41:27.520 So obviously when you are going to be working or opposing an attorney who you have some level of respect for, that makes the job a little bit easier I imagine.

00:41:37.820 But that's not always going to be the case and you're going to have those ego-driven people.

00:41:42.280 And I think this is very applicable for other people who may not be attorneys, whether it's working with a confrontational boss or a coworker.

00:41:49.180 How do you find it best to begin to maybe tear down some of the ego wall or to cross that barrier a little bit to try to come to some mutual understanding when you're dealing with, frankly, a jerk or an a-hole?

00:42:04.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:42:05.340 It is a power move when you don't take bait.

00:42:13.560 People who have egos and are these terrible personalities that are really insecure personalities when we get down to it, just insecure people who leave bait.

00:42:26.160 Maybe they're going to send – typically in the legal world, they're going to send some email that's snarky.

00:42:31.020 They send something just to jab, just to cut.

00:42:36.260 And it is such a flip, just a dynamic power flip for you to ignore so many things.

00:42:45.020 It brings me back to when I was a kid in high school and I'd be upset about something.

00:42:50.780 I'd come to my dad about it.

00:42:52.500 I'd be complaining.

00:42:53.360 Yeah, I can't believe somebody did this and this and this.

00:42:55.900 And he'd just look at me and go, so?

00:42:59.320 I mean, and that would be his response, probably at least twice.

00:43:04.060 And I'd say, but you got this, this, this.

00:43:06.020 And he'd go, so?

00:43:08.800 I mean, as if – and it just continually broke me down in a great way of what he would always end with was, I think, twice before making that your Alamo.

00:43:19.760 Meaning, is that going to be the hill that you die on?

00:43:22.140 Is that really what you're going to do?

00:43:23.800 Is this really going to be the sticking point for you?

00:43:28.080 And so often, that continues to be a lesson I go to again and again of when you get these snarky responses and somebody's – maybe you're working, maybe it's your foreman, maybe it's somebody else on the shift, and they're just – they're a jerk.

00:43:44.900 It's a power move not to take their bait because what they're wanting is that – they're wanting that response.

00:43:52.240 They're wanting that control from you.

00:43:54.040 They're wanting that hit of dopamine to get that negative reaction out of you to know, I got you.

00:43:58.900 I'm controlling their emotions.

00:44:00.360 I'm getting something out of this.

00:44:01.740 But when you can just be cool as a cucumber, just be back in the pocket and realize nobody's really going to get a rise out of me, people notice that.

00:44:11.000 And I think it's a very – it's a quiet, confident move when you're not going to let things like that rattle you.

00:44:19.240 And they know it too.

00:44:21.360 Yeah.

00:44:21.620 The person who immediately comes to mind as I hear that is Jocko Willink.

00:44:27.880 Oh, yeah.

00:44:28.580 This is –

00:44:29.060 That dude looks like a – just – look like a bullet.

00:44:32.220 Like the guy just – it looks like a piece of ammo.

00:44:34.120 He's amazing.

00:44:34.920 Yeah.

00:44:35.840 But he doesn't project himself that way.

00:44:39.660 Absolutely.

00:44:39.980 He looks that way and he communicates in a very bold, assertive way.

00:44:43.860 Yeah.

00:44:44.040 But he doesn't get caught up in cultural drama and BS.

00:44:49.440 He doesn't respond negatively or snarky.

00:44:53.020 He just does his thing and he's highly respected for it.

00:44:57.380 Yeah.

00:44:57.660 It's so awesome.

00:44:58.660 Yeah.

00:44:58.980 I mean I absolutely agree.

00:45:00.740 He's a great example of that.

00:45:03.040 And that's what I feel so many men especially feel that they have to portray confidence in a way that is cocky and arrogant and talking about myself.

00:45:12.400 When it's almost the exact opposite.

00:45:15.620 Somebody like Jocko says, I don't deal with any of that BS.

00:45:18.700 I don't – there's nothing I need to prove.

00:45:21.600 Like the way I like to say it is insecurities are loud.

00:45:24.680 Confidence is quiet.

00:45:26.400 And so I don't need to be telling you how great I am.

00:45:30.380 I don't need to name drop.

00:45:31.600 I don't need to start saying all these things about myself or being about all the drama.

00:45:37.420 If I know I'm on a mission and I'm all about the business, I'm not worried about that.

00:45:41.860 You see that in meetings all the time.

00:45:43.960 Maybe you're in a big Zoom meeting or something.

00:45:46.200 The person who speaks up the most every time is generally the person who knows the least.

00:45:53.220 It's the person who wants to feel like I need everybody to know that I know something.

00:45:57.960 I'm involved.

00:45:58.740 You hear my voice all the time.

00:46:00.440 When it's the people who know they're on a mission and they know their role and their scope, they're not worried about that.

00:46:06.620 They can have that kind of confidence.

00:46:09.000 Yeah.

00:46:10.040 When you were talking about your dad saying so, I remember a friend of mine.

00:46:14.120 We were business partners in our financial planning practices and I would get heated and upset at things.

00:46:19.360 I tend to be more that way.

00:46:20.420 And he was very calm and had a really just collected demeanor.

00:46:24.020 And I would say things and he would say, therefore what?

00:46:27.380 Yeah.

00:46:27.960 Oh, that's good.

00:46:28.640 And I'm like, what do you mean?

00:46:29.520 Therefore what?

00:46:30.560 I get pissed off or whatever.

00:46:32.740 And he's like, what I mean is, what are you going to do about that?

00:46:36.720 I'm like, it's the exact same.

00:46:38.540 I don't like when you say that, but I'm glad you're telling me that right now.

00:46:42.340 Yeah.

00:46:42.780 Well, that's what, that's what like 14 year old Jefferson was getting every day.

00:46:47.200 So it was, uh, yeah, it's the same exact lesson.

00:46:50.920 It's the, so what are you going to do about it?

00:46:54.240 You know, and it ends up that I'm not going to do anything about it.

00:46:56.960 I'm just, I'm just needing to vent, just needing to say things that really don't matter at the end of the day and realize in perspective, I'm not going to allow this other person to have that kind of control over me.

00:47:08.780 And that's really the key is what kind of, are you operating just on a whim?

00:47:15.040 Are you operating based on a set of manuals that say, no, these are my boundaries.

00:47:18.440 These are the, these are the rules of the game.

00:47:20.580 If this is how you want, if you want to communicate with me, here are my rules.

00:47:24.760 If you don't want to abide by those rules, no problem.

00:47:27.200 We don't have to have this conversation.

00:47:28.700 We don't have to have this game.

00:47:30.860 What are some of your rules that you have for that level of communication with people with you?

00:47:35.540 So, so I like to use, and I know I've said this in probably a recent video is, you know, I am big on how you're going to speak to me.

00:47:48.440 And I want to make sure at the end of the day, I'm going to speak respectfully to you.

00:47:53.160 You're going to speak respectfully to me.

00:47:55.000 So I like to use, I do not allow, or I do not accept.

00:47:58.720 Those are the words of permission, um, words of boundaries.

00:48:03.000 Say, I'm, I'm not going to tolerate the way you're talking to me right now.

00:48:07.100 And I've done that plenty in phone calls with opposing attorneys.

00:48:10.220 They get heated, they get, um, they get emotional because that's really what it is.

00:48:14.660 They're getting heated and emotional about something.

00:48:17.700 And they start talking to me in a, in a very rude tone.

00:48:22.980 I'll check that easily.

00:48:24.440 Hey, I don't accept the way you're talking to me right now.

00:48:26.920 All right.

00:48:27.420 I don't allow that kind of tone.

00:48:28.520 It is such a, like, whoa, they weren't expecting that kind of response.

00:48:34.240 It's very different than saying, if I were to say, you can't talk to me like that, like

00:48:39.100 that's, that's weak.

00:48:41.100 You can't talk to me that way.

00:48:42.720 You think that's going to make them go, oh, I'm so sorry.

00:48:46.320 Or you think they're going to escalate it?

00:48:47.500 Oh yeah, you, I can say whatever I want.

00:48:49.900 Like you're just, you're totally escalating.

00:48:52.740 Instead it's, I do not respond to that type of behavior.

00:48:55.820 I don't respond to that kind of tone.

00:48:58.560 It's, it is solely in my control, how I'm going to respond to it.

00:49:03.380 So instead of, you can't talk to me that way, it's, I don't allow that kind of behavior.

00:49:09.180 I don't allow anybody to speak to me that way.

00:49:12.100 That, that, I've always seen that be like an ice bucket of water on their head where

00:49:17.760 they go, oh, I mean, I'm sorry about that.

00:49:19.840 And they try, they kind of start hedging back.

00:49:22.240 Well, what I mean is, and they slow down their words.

00:49:24.940 But as long as you're letting them know that, listen, you're, you're about to run

00:49:28.920 into a fence here.

00:49:30.780 Um, and if, if you're going to continue to talk to me that way, this is the end of the

00:49:34.140 conversation, period, rather than trying to desperately cling on to who's going to have

00:49:41.220 the most power in the conversation.

00:49:43.960 That's a, that's a lose, lose proposition.

00:49:45.700 I, I've heard you say things like, um, is that, is that what you want to go with?

00:49:52.040 Like a statement like that as well, where it just kind of reminds him like, oh, and I

00:49:56.680 actually think in like a statement like that, it repositions the power or control back into

00:50:04.160 your court.

00:50:04.640 When you say that, because you're not offended by it, you're actually, you're being accusatory

00:50:09.300 in a very polite way, I think is how I would maybe say that.

00:50:13.460 Yeah, absolutely.

00:50:14.640 I've certainly asked the question and questions are very powerful tools to check people that

00:50:20.500 way.

00:50:20.820 If I were just to say, is that what you want to say?

00:50:24.700 Period.

00:50:25.140 I haven't said, I really haven't said anything at all.

00:50:28.340 I'm just asking, is that what you want to say?

00:50:31.120 Most of the time, if what, if what they had just said was something ugly, they will tweak

00:50:37.020 it.

00:50:37.300 They will say something else.

00:50:38.680 They will say it in a less negative way at almost every time.

00:50:43.820 Hmm.

00:50:45.500 Uh, when it comes to the way that you communicate with your wife and your kids, have you ever run

00:50:52.100 into scenarios where, cause I imagine at work, it's going to be a different dynamic, obviously

00:50:57.940 than it is at home.

00:50:58.800 It might be more combative, for example, or a lot more assertive, or even maybe potentially

00:51:03.160 borderline aggressive in the courtroom.

00:51:05.060 And then you get home and have you ever been checked by your wife where she might say, Hey,

00:51:09.580 look, are you talking to your wife?

00:51:11.620 Are you talking to a client right now?

00:51:13.880 Have you ever run across any discrepancy in the way you communicate at work versus the way

00:51:18.000 you do at home?

00:51:19.840 Sure.

00:51:20.040 Uh, I used to, the response she would give, this was several years ago, would be don't

00:51:27.080 cross-examine me.

00:51:28.840 So I would, yes, I would get into these modes if we were in an argument and I would just start

00:51:34.680 to slice and dice into the, the argument to prove my point.

00:51:40.900 That's what really I was doing.

00:51:42.520 And that's what you do in the, in the courtroom.

00:51:45.040 You don't ask the direct question.

00:51:46.900 You take a bunch of other little cuts to where the jury sees the answer and they don't, you

00:51:53.840 don't need to ask the final question that, you know, they're not going to give to you.

00:51:58.580 So it is, uh, you're painting the picture.

00:52:01.540 So that's what I would do out of just pure instinct.

00:52:05.200 And so anytime she would say, don't cross-examine me, it's like, Oh, you're right.

00:52:09.340 Yeah.

00:52:09.560 Let me, sorry, but that's, that's one of the biggest things.

00:52:12.620 And she's, she's also an attorney.

00:52:13.900 So she, she gets it.

00:52:15.440 Oh, she knows.

00:52:16.520 Okay.

00:52:16.820 Yeah.

00:52:16.960 She doesn't do trial.

00:52:17.880 She doesn't do trial law, but she's also an attorney.

00:52:19.940 And, you know, we both went through law school together.

00:52:22.940 So it is a, um, it's, she picks up on it very quickly when I'm acting outside of myself.

00:52:30.800 It, that's just hard because that's, that's bringing work home in many ways.

00:52:35.480 But, but what makes it really good is having both been attorneys, we see the issue very

00:52:44.160 clearly of where the breakdown is.

00:52:45.960 That's, that's, and I find that's hard for some couples, us being attorneys, it comes

00:52:51.880 relatively quickly.

00:52:53.620 Our arguments do not last long because we can pick what the fly in the ointment was, you

00:52:59.940 know, during that, that time.

00:53:02.400 Yeah, no, that is good that she's an attorney.

00:53:05.280 I imagine it would take a special kind of personality without trying to be insulting to

00:53:09.120 you to be married to an attorney like yourself.

00:53:12.860 Yeah, it is.

00:53:14.160 It's, I've had lots of people reach out to say, you know, I'm married to a trial attorney

00:53:17.500 or my dad's a trial attorney or my, my mom's a trial attorney.

00:53:21.660 And yeah, we definitely, especially plaintiff attorneys, we don't have the best reputation

00:53:27.700 in the world.

00:53:28.620 It's pretty, pretty poor as people that are not ethical, people that are selfish in the

00:53:36.040 communication.

00:53:37.120 Maybe they're liars.

00:53:38.300 Maybe they're not saying things the right way.

00:53:40.360 But yeah, it can be very difficult to have that kind of relationship.

00:53:43.500 And part of my platform and mission is really to show people that, you know, the job of

00:53:50.120 an attorney is to advocate for you and to teach you how to advocate for yourself.

00:53:55.980 Hmm.

00:53:56.500 I like that term advocate because I think sometimes, you know, generally or maybe culturally or the

00:54:03.400 general consensus might be like, how do you, you know, for example, defend somebody, you

00:54:09.240 know, is in the wrong.

00:54:10.720 Like that's, that's gotta be a moral dilemma that an attorney in that position, I would

00:54:15.680 think, unless they're a psychopath would have to wrestle with.

00:54:17.980 Yeah.

00:54:18.700 Yeah.

00:54:19.240 Thankfully, I don't, that's mostly in criminal law.

00:54:22.840 You know, I do civil law between a plaintiff and a defense, but in a criminal setting,

00:54:27.780 I mean, you, you are by law afforded a criminal attorney to defend you from any crime.

00:54:34.580 And those people, even though they know without a doubt that that person has committed the

00:54:38.980 crime, it's more of the constitutional right to do it.

00:54:42.960 It's very hard.

00:54:44.180 It wouldn't be my job.

00:54:45.440 I can tell you, I'm not, that's not for me, but I know people that are, um, they love

00:54:51.040 it.

00:54:51.540 They love it.

00:54:52.020 And I mean, there's a place for it, more hats off to them, but that's, that's not my

00:54:56.200 role.

00:54:56.660 But I think the, going back to your key word on advocate makes a very big difference for

00:55:02.640 people in the way they communicate.

00:55:03.960 And, and one path we could go on that for a second is, you know, if you were to say,

00:55:11.080 if I say, Ryan, look, you're an attorney right now, you're an attorney.

00:55:15.440 And you're going to stand up and advocate for a client.

00:55:20.220 And let's say I'm your client.

00:55:22.120 You're standing up in a courtroom and you're going to say, my client deserves this.

00:55:25.340 My client deserves that.

00:55:26.560 My client's not going to accept that.

00:55:28.420 Anything that's been run to the table, you are the first guardian to your client.

00:55:34.200 You're the one protecting them of things.

00:55:35.720 All you need to do in some ways, instead of my client, just change the word to I, I will

00:55:42.680 not accept that.

00:55:43.580 I will not put up with that.

00:55:45.820 Is this many ways you are an advocate of yourself.

00:55:49.000 And I think that gets missed often that you are all you need to speak your truth and communicate

00:55:55.840 in a way that's going to resonate with you.

00:55:58.480 You, you don't have to go to a, read a book.

00:56:01.800 You don't have to attend a conference.

00:56:03.240 You just need a few little tweaks and understand that you have all the tools right there.

00:56:07.480 It's something that you can learn.

00:56:10.460 I think, uh, advocate is also a more of a long-term play.

00:56:15.840 You know, I think about this in the context of, of my kids.

00:56:18.340 I'm obviously an advocate for my children, but at times it means that I need to let them

00:56:23.460 experience the consequences of their poor decision-making.

00:56:26.380 I'm not there to rescue them from the consequences.

00:56:29.580 If I'm truly going to be an advocate on their behalf, I need to teach them how to have a voice,

00:56:34.240 teach them how to make right decisions.

00:56:35.840 And part of that means that you need to pay for the decision that you made.

00:56:40.740 Cause that was a bad one.

00:56:41.700 And you need to learn a lesson from that.

00:56:43.340 And sometimes I need to be the person who administers that discipline.

00:56:46.500 But if you look at it that way, that's a much more effective long-term strategy for parenting

00:56:52.580 great adults.

00:56:53.920 Then let me save you from all your woes and poor decision-making.

00:56:57.940 I agree.

00:56:59.100 It is.

00:57:00.440 And I'd say that's one of the hardest things as a parent is letting your kid make mistakes.

00:57:05.120 You know that they're making, despite your advice.

00:57:09.180 Um, you know, I've put it in very, very simple, basic terms.

00:57:13.060 Like I'll, I'll tell my son, you know, Hey, you need to get down from there.

00:57:16.000 You're going to, you're going to fall.

00:57:17.520 You're going to fall if you keep walking that way.

00:57:20.340 And of course he's going to keep on walking.

00:57:22.160 And what does he do?

00:57:22.660 He falls.

00:57:23.520 And so, I mean, the thing is, I can't, he can't get mad at anybody, but it's a lesson

00:57:29.040 and he doesn't, he doesn't go there again, but it's, it's that, um, yeah, I think if

00:57:34.460 you're going to raise competent, wonderful people, it's, it's part of, there's no greater

00:57:40.180 teacher than experience.

00:57:42.640 No, unfortunately.

00:57:44.260 Right.

00:57:44.520 I wish we could just be smarter people and, or, or wiser people and just learn from the

00:57:49.900 lesson that somebody taught us.

00:57:51.240 But I refuse to do that.

00:57:52.700 I want to do it the hard way.

00:57:54.060 Yeah.

00:57:54.420 I can remember, uh, doing some of my first like hammer and nails and I was just going

00:57:59.540 to town on it.

00:58:00.280 And my dad said, you need to move your thumb.

00:58:01.900 I said, why?

00:58:03.140 I mean, it just took no second at all for I just smash my, my fingernail.

00:58:10.620 Yeah.

00:58:12.320 Uh, what else do you love about your job?

00:58:14.140 Because when you were talking about, there was a couple of things that you said you were

00:58:17.380 talking about painting a picture.

00:58:19.780 Uh, you talked about making all these cuts.

00:58:22.560 I saw a little bit of light in your eyes, like a little bit of excitement when you were

00:58:26.660 talking about that.

00:58:27.980 What, what is it that you love about your job so much?

00:58:31.900 Hmm.

00:58:33.380 The attorney answer is you get to help other people.

00:58:37.600 The Jefferson, the real answer.

00:58:39.660 Yeah.

00:58:39.960 The Jefferson, the Jefferson answer is there's nothing like it in the world and the ability

00:58:45.920 to paint a picture using just your words.

00:58:50.220 It's courtroom is half some amount of theater, a lot of amount of just quickness and wit.

00:58:57.240 You have to be paying attention.

00:58:59.140 There's no rule book for it.

00:59:02.480 If I, if you're just looking down at your paper for the next question, you're going to

00:59:07.360 miss what the witness says.

00:59:08.900 So there's nothing of just like being alive in the moment when it's very high stakes and

00:59:15.260 it all rides upon your communication and style.

00:59:18.280 Because if they don't like you, they're not going to like your client and they're not going

00:59:21.400 to like your case.

00:59:22.640 And so every way that you can craft a question can really make the difference.

00:59:28.340 And I think there's such an art and a beauty to it.

00:59:30.700 How you ask a certain question in the inflection of your voice or how much of a pause do you

00:59:36.740 have before that one hammer of a word.

00:59:40.160 And so anytime I think about cross-examination, which I love, it's just a whole lot of fun.

00:59:46.000 It's for me, which is weird, but it is, it is such a, to me, there's nothing like it.

00:59:52.020 And in many ways, it's just an art form that I, I truly, I truly like.

00:59:57.260 The, the thing that you said that really stood out to me is, uh, you, you alluded to being

01:00:04.140 likable and that's a little bit of a counterintuitive or antithetical thought to what culture says,

01:00:11.660 which I don't care about what other people think of me, what they think of me is not

01:00:15.300 my problem.

01:00:16.240 And what you're saying now, and I happen to side with you on this is you're talking about

01:00:20.540 being a likable person.

01:00:22.840 Otherwise you're not going to hit your agenda.

01:00:26.260 I mean, it's just not possible.

01:00:28.100 Yeah.

01:00:29.180 I, the people that are this, you know, I don't care what anybody has to say, well, that's

01:00:33.800 fine.

01:00:34.120 You just need to be prepared to be pretty lonely.

01:00:36.060 You know, I, it just, it's, it's, um, being with humans as part of the experience, uh, in

01:00:43.420 life.

01:00:43.780 And I, I think having to finding ways to really just the desire to be loved and be liked and

01:00:52.260 have friendship and be thought of, well, is just a natural desire.

01:00:57.420 And if you want people to choose you for things, anywhere you want to go in life, any career

01:01:03.380 you want to have, what friend group you want to have, if you're not likable and nobody likes

01:01:08.860 you, you're not going to, to get it.

01:01:12.160 It's just, it is.

01:01:13.600 I mean, you, if it's like, Hey, this is somebody I want to have a beer with.

01:01:17.160 I mean, I mean, that makes a big difference in somebody's hiring decisions.

01:01:21.500 Oh, I really liked the guy.

01:01:22.460 Or if, you know, how many jurors I've had after a trial and you get to ask some questions

01:01:28.300 and they just go, well, I really liked that witness.

01:01:30.280 They don't know them from anything.

01:01:32.020 It's just, she had a sweet smile.

01:01:34.340 She seemed really kind when she said that these little bitty nuances that we read in

01:01:39.200 people, maybe you find that they have very kind eyes or you just like how they, they,

01:01:43.940 they present themselves.

01:01:45.760 And the key to it is just being authentic, period.

01:01:49.880 Period.

01:01:50.800 It's even people that I have trained in communication before a trial and they're so

01:01:58.120 nervous because they feel like they have to be somebody else.

01:02:00.920 I'm saying, no, no, no, no, you just be you.

01:02:04.020 And that personality will shine because if you act like you're trying to be something you're

01:02:08.300 not, people sniff that out in a hurry.

01:02:11.560 And all of a sudden they just know right away, ah, this person, there's not, there's something

01:02:16.040 else to this person.

01:02:16.940 Like it's just an innate instinct that we can tell if somebody's being fake or disingenuous

01:02:23.620 and we don't like it.

01:02:25.800 We feel like they're hiding something, but it doesn't even matter if, if you're being

01:02:30.400 authentic, people don't care if you're not the best looking or you're not the best, most

01:02:36.220 well-spoken person in the room.

01:02:37.920 They like the mess ups.

01:02:39.280 They like seeing the imperfection because perfection is not relatable.

01:02:43.280 It's struggle is imperfection is.

01:02:46.300 So part of being likable is truly just being authentic to yourself.

01:02:51.160 That doesn't mean everybody has to like you, but if you want to communicate and move forward

01:02:57.660 and have progress in your life, you're going to have to embrace this idea of thinking that

01:03:02.760 your needs don't always come above everybody else's every single time.

01:03:07.040 Yeah.

01:03:08.380 Yeah.

01:03:08.780 That's a good point.

01:03:09.660 I remember listening cause I, I present in public sometimes and I remember the professional,

01:03:14.680 uh, speaking coaches I would hire and the general consensus was, you know, never let people see

01:03:20.800 your insecurities, but that never felt right to me.

01:03:23.120 And so early on I would go on stage and, and say, Hey, look guys, I'm nervous and here's

01:03:27.720 why, but it's important to me.

01:03:28.980 So if I mess up, that's on me, hopefully you can get over it.

01:03:32.980 That was a much more relatable way to connect with people, even from stage than pretending

01:03:38.760 like I wasn't nervous or scared to death about being in front of a thousand people.

01:03:42.800 Yeah.

01:03:43.440 Oh no.

01:03:44.000 I, I, I do not agree with that former advice that you were given the ability to be vulnerable

01:03:51.340 in that way is a strength, meaning, and here's our, I, I know you're liking to relate things

01:03:58.200 in the courtroom sense.

01:03:59.400 So let's say we have, you represent one party.

01:04:03.680 I represent the other party, Ryan, and we're against each other.

01:04:07.900 And let's say I go up in front of the jury and I say, ladies and gentlemen, this is a

01:04:12.120 case about X, Y, and Z.

01:04:13.260 And I'm going to let you know, my client did nothing wrong.

01:04:15.500 Do you understand me?

01:04:16.140 Nothing wrong.

01:04:17.020 And after all the evidence today, you're going to realize we did everything perfect to a T.

01:04:21.180 I'm going to ask that you don't give the clients anything at all, right?

01:04:24.780 Give the total win for our case.

01:04:27.180 Now you go up, Ryan, and you say, ladies and gentlemen, this is a case about X, Y, and Z.

01:04:31.900 And I'm going to be up front.

01:04:33.360 Our clients made some mistakes.

01:04:35.060 We got some bruises here.

01:04:37.500 And though we had some mistakes, our hearts in the right place.

01:04:40.560 And as soon as this happened, they did X, Y, and Z.

01:04:43.440 And we're going to ask at the end of the day, you find a favor of us.

01:04:46.700 Between the two of us, Ryan, who sounds like you already liked them more?

01:04:51.960 Right.

01:04:52.340 It'd be you.

01:04:52.740 Of course, the person that, yeah.

01:04:54.500 If you can admit that you didn't do things 100%, like nobody does things, anything 100%.

01:05:02.340 You always will be more relatable, always more vulnerable.

01:05:05.900 And that's always a strength.

01:05:09.220 Yeah.

01:05:09.840 Well, I didn't know that.

01:05:10.960 So at the end of trial, you have an opportunity to talk with jurors for some feedback and some insight.

01:05:16.780 I didn't know that was – is that standard practice in both civil and criminal court?

01:05:21.960 Yeah.

01:05:22.680 Yeah.

01:05:23.080 As soon as they're done with –

01:05:23.820 Oh, I didn't know that.

01:05:24.200 Yeah.

01:05:24.380 As soon as they're done with service, they're free.

01:05:26.120 They can talk about anything that they want.

01:05:28.640 Right.

01:05:28.840 Now, they don't have to talk to you.

01:05:29.660 So you reach out to the jurors individually?

01:05:31.100 Is that what you do?

01:05:32.380 Well, I mean, I've had it multiple different ways.

01:05:36.080 So you can reach out to them if you want, but usually right after trial, they'll come to you.

01:05:42.400 Now, I've had it plenty of times where they come and give my client a hug or give me a handshake or catch me in the hallway or the parking lot.

01:05:50.480 And they're free to say what evidence they thought was most overwhelming or what they liked or they didn't like.

01:05:56.680 And, I mean, yeah.

01:05:57.980 So it's called polling the jury.

01:05:59.860 You can also do it in a formal proceeding.

01:06:01.420 If we want to say, Judge, we like to poll the jury, then you can – the other attorney and I can actually get the clients out and just talk with them, just person to person.

01:06:10.340 Like, hey, did y'all – when that witness said anything, did you like that?

01:06:13.000 And they go, oh, I don't know what you're talking about.

01:06:14.520 We didn't – nobody caught that.

01:06:16.060 Or like that one piece of evidence you thought was so great.

01:06:18.340 They're like, oh, yeah, we didn't like that at all.

01:06:19.740 That didn't make a difference.

01:06:21.240 So it's always – whatever you thought it was, it's not.

01:06:24.780 So what else goes into your review process even just from a personal evaluation so that you can improve in all facets, not just in the courtroom but at home and other areas of your life?

01:06:40.140 With clients or are you talking about me?

01:06:43.260 You personally.

01:06:44.280 Like how do you review and evaluate your own performance in the way that you showed up?

01:06:49.520 In the courtroom or just anywhere?

01:06:52.800 Anywhere.

01:06:53.280 Let's just say, yeah, a little bit of everything.

01:06:56.840 I like to try and – I have a journal that I keep and it's not a daily journal.

01:07:03.720 It's just a journal for my notes.

01:07:05.720 And I actually have a process that I evaluate conversations that I have, either ones I've had in the past or ones I'm going to have in the future.

01:07:16.400 And so I will line out if I know – let's say I know I'm going to talk to Ryan next week.

01:07:23.280 Or tomorrow.

01:07:24.160 I might write a little note and write to myself what I know briefly about Ryan's personality.

01:07:31.500 If I might say anxious attachment, I might say something of, you know, this is his, tends to be his personality, does not like someone to be long-winded.

01:07:40.380 No, it does not give to kind of emotional applications.

01:07:44.240 Let's do – so it helps me kind of gear my head into thinking, addressing the conversation around them, not specifically around me.

01:07:55.440 And that helps me a whole lot to improve that difficult conversation, what I'm going to have next.

01:08:01.300 And then I also might have a note where I might speak to that opposing attorney or that friend and things went badly.

01:08:10.540 Things didn't go well.

01:08:11.960 And I ran into a dead end and I had to do something else.

01:08:14.680 I make a note of that where I can to say, let me make sure I write it down.

01:08:19.180 Because if I don't write it down, it's probably going to be gone out of my head.

01:08:23.760 So I like to try and keep notes that are solely tailored to improving my communication in the conversations that I'm going to have.

01:08:33.140 I like that.

01:08:33.980 So it's basically documentation, self-evaluation, writing it down, and then reviewing it and going back to it as needed.

01:08:41.280 You got it.

01:08:42.120 And it's something that because of the book and everything, I am actually creating that as a separate journal that will launch two years or so from now.

01:08:53.700 It's just a long publishing process.

01:08:55.080 But to actually have a journal based on the same template that I use for my own communication, that is, it's a way to think ahead of conversations that you've had or that you're going to have and to think about and break down the conversation that you had in the past.

01:09:14.000 Because almost always there's that breakdown moment in the conversation, let's say you had an argument, there's always the tipping point in it between when it escalates and then it goes back down again.

01:09:26.580 So being able to find what that person's trigger was helps you avoid problems in the future.

01:09:36.140 Yeah, yeah, very cool.

01:09:37.700 Well, you brought up the book.

01:09:38.720 I would like to have you talk real briefly.

01:09:41.000 It's funny because when I reached out a month or so ago to you and your team, I didn't know you had the book coming out.

01:09:47.640 So it was just good timing.

01:09:49.920 And so you've got the book coming out, The Next Conversation.

01:09:52.860 I think that's available for pre-order now.

01:09:54.720 When does that book launch and how do you guys pick up a copy of it and find more out about you?

01:10:00.140 Yeah, I appreciate that, Ryan.

01:10:01.440 Yeah, so the book is called The Next Conversation, How to Argue Less, Talk More.

01:10:06.140 And it's officially out on pre-order.

01:10:08.080 Then go to my website, jeffersonfisher.com or thenextconversation.com.

01:10:12.500 Or just go to my Instagram or any social media channel.

01:10:15.600 And it will be out in March.

01:10:17.140 So I think we're, what is that, five months from now or so?

01:10:21.180 Something like that.

01:10:21.900 I can't believe we're already.

01:10:22.380 It seems so far away, but it's going to come quick.

01:10:24.680 I mean, we're already almost on.

01:10:27.180 Yeah, this will be dropping.

01:10:28.820 We're almost already at the end of October.

01:10:30.620 And we'll have November, December.

01:10:32.080 And we're going to be there.

01:10:34.180 It's crazy how time goes.

01:10:37.580 But it's a book that's going to teach people how to say things with control, say things with confidence, and say it to connect, which is part of my three rules.

01:10:48.300 Of course, it's got to be three on how to communicate.

01:10:50.880 I'm writing that down because I like that.

01:10:54.420 And I work in threes, too.

01:10:55.660 I mean, our podcast motto is protect, provide, preside.

01:10:59.020 So you and I have similar mindsets.

01:11:01.660 That's probably why I wanted to reach out and have you on the podcast.

01:11:04.360 Yeah.

01:11:05.240 Well, threes are just so easy to keep.

01:11:08.220 It's simple yet tidy.

01:11:10.200 And it always feels like a very solid base.

01:11:13.760 I mean, when I give opening arguments or closing arguments, I like to do it in threes.

01:11:18.400 So I'm right there with you, man.

01:11:20.880 Yeah.

01:11:21.460 Well, I appreciate this conversation.

01:11:23.180 I know the guys are going to find some help from this and obviously the book coming out.

01:11:26.720 Thank you for the work that you do.

01:11:27.980 I got to say on a personal note that some of the things that you've shared in your videos, I have applied and they work.

01:11:33.540 And that's obviously, you know, the biggest litmus test.

01:11:36.380 Does this stuff actually work?

01:11:38.140 And I can tell you in my own life, it has.

01:11:40.640 So I appreciate you, man.

01:11:41.480 Thanks for joining me today.

01:11:42.740 Thanks, Ryan.

01:11:43.320 I appreciate that, brother.

01:11:44.140 It was my pleasure to be here.

01:11:46.980 Gentlemen, there you go.

01:11:47.740 My conversation with the one and only Jefferson Fisher.

01:11:50.260 Hopefully, you walked away with some actionable steps that you can take into the rest of your work or into a conversation with your wife or kids that you might be having this afternoon.

01:11:59.520 But make sure if you haven't already, follow Jefferson on social media.

01:12:03.560 I primarily follow him on social media over at Instagram.

01:12:07.360 That's typically where I'm most active and he puts out a lot of great content over there.

01:12:13.740 Also, take out your phone right now.

01:12:16.480 Take a screenshot of the radio dashboard or a screenshot of your phone.

01:12:20.920 If you're listening to this, tag Jefferson, tag myself, post it up on social media.

01:12:25.480 Guys, this is primarily the way that we are growing the podcast and the movement is through word of mouth.

01:12:30.960 So just take a screenshot, tag us both, let people know what you're listening to.

01:12:34.580 And then, of course, pick up a copy of Jefferson's book called The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More.

01:12:41.920 This is going to be a New York Times bestseller.

01:12:43.940 Just I'm going to put my money on it right now.

01:12:45.820 You guys can mark this conversation.

01:12:47.520 I'm calling it now.

01:12:48.960 This book, The Next Conversation, is a New York Times bestseller.

01:12:52.020 Check it out.

01:12:52.520 Check out what he's up to.

01:12:54.520 Also, make sure you take a look into our event that's coming up in May of next year, the 1st through the 4th, 2025, called TheMensForge.com.

01:13:04.640 TheMensForge.com.

01:13:06.240 All right, guys, you've got your marching orders.

01:13:08.420 I will be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

01:13:11.240 Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

01:13:15.540 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:13:23.780 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

01:13:27.760 we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - October 29, 2024

JEFFERSON FISHER ｜ How to Communicate Like a Man

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