Order of Man - JEFFREY SANOW ｜ What a CIA Officer Can Teach Us about Communication, Influence, and Deception

00:00:00.000 We're all somewhat familiar with our three-letter agencies, but rarely, if ever, do we consider

00:00:04.680 what some of the most intelligent people on the planet can teach us about communication,

00:00:09.740 influence, and deception.

00:00:11.420 My guest today is keenly aware of all three and how to implement powerful strategies to

00:00:16.560 build trust, develop credibility, and ultimately to get people to do what you want.

00:00:21.760 His name is Jeffrey Sano, and he spent years as a senior intelligence officer with the

00:00:26.420 CIA, and today we talk about what the CIA looks for in its officers and assets, how

00:00:32.320 to empower people to fail the right way, removing barriers to communication, the balance between

00:00:38.240 compliance and rebelliousness, and the hard and soft skills of getting people to follow

00:00:43.120 you.

00:00:43.940 You're a man of action.

00:00:45.340 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:49.780 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:53.960 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, or strong.

00:00:59.400 This is your life.

00:01:00.480 This is who you are.

00:01:01.880 This is who you will become.

00:01:03.600 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:12.560 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:14.640 As you probably know by now, if you've been around for any amount of time, I'm Ryan Michler.

00:01:18.360 I'm your host, and it's my job to give you great conversations.

00:01:22.260 We're going to get into this one very shortly.

00:01:24.640 Just want to mention very briefly that part of the reason this show is possible is because

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00:02:14.060 All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest.

00:02:16.720 He is Jeffrey Sano.

00:02:17.960 He's a former CIA intelligence officer.

00:02:21.020 He's also a global security expert and strategic leadership speaker.

00:02:25.680 And he shares insights around dedication and fortitude and the imperative need for leaders

00:02:32.280 and individuals to hold themselves to very high calling.

00:02:35.480 So very much in alignment with what we do here.

00:02:37.720 And in the CIA, he was a security expert, a very decorated career in critical global operations.

00:02:44.060 He was a social skills instructor.

00:02:46.960 He's a highly effective communicator.

00:02:49.460 And his ability to weave together real-world insights with practical strategies for managing

00:02:55.300 risk and making decisions under pressure is unmatched.

00:03:00.020 He's got a very analytical idea and mindset around what it means to perform and communicate,

00:03:09.120 and especially staying calm under pressure.

00:03:12.340 He's contributed to key missions that have shaped U.S. foreign policy and safeguarded national

00:03:17.560 interest.

00:03:18.860 And today, he brings insight and leadership into the ever-changing landscape of intelligence

00:03:23.900 and security.

00:03:24.520 You know, one thing I was thinking about as we were planning and I was prepping for this

00:03:30.940 podcast is that it's amazing to me that something we do so often, which is communicate

00:03:36.440 with other people on a daily basis, is something we don't really learn how to do.

00:03:41.060 We don't train.

00:03:41.980 We don't practice.

00:03:42.940 I find that really, really fascinating.

00:03:46.340 And we're generally not very good at it.

00:03:49.020 We are particularly not very good at the listening side because that's never a skill that's taught

00:03:54.100 to us unless it's our mother yelling at us that we better listen to her or we're going

00:03:57.940 to get beat.

00:03:59.140 Short of that, we don't spend any time developing listening skills except for sometimes you can.

00:04:07.400 And some people may.

00:04:09.220 I have just because they made us do that when I was in the agency because we have to learn

00:04:17.080 that.

00:04:17.980 The biggest reason, in my opinion, that we're not good listeners is that in order to listen

00:04:24.280 to you, I have to treat you as at least as important or knowledgeable as I am.

00:04:30.740 In other words, I need to put my ego in check.

00:04:33.940 And generally speaking, we're not very good at that because ego is what drives us.

00:04:37.400 Yeah, you know, when you were talking about listening to your mother, even that is, in

00:04:45.820 a lot of cases, more compliance, it seems like, than it would be what you would call active

00:04:50.660 listening.

00:04:51.480 I think active listening is actually an engagement with a dialogue and a conversation like we're

00:04:56.700 having now, not do the dishes or you're grounded.

00:04:59.900 I would have to agree with that.

00:05:01.440 Yeah, so why, I guess, why, well, you talked a little bit about why we're not good at it,

00:05:09.500 but it seems like it would be something that doesn't come natural necessarily, but that

00:05:15.460 we just pick up over time because of a, I guess, at the base level is a survival mechanism.

00:05:21.500 I think that's very true.

00:05:23.360 We don't listen unless it's in our best interest.

00:05:26.260 We don't do anything that's not in our best interest.

00:05:29.320 And we have to understand that listening is in our best interest.

00:05:34.780 And that's why you listen to your mom, because it's in your best interest.

00:05:38.140 That's why you obey traffic signs and listen to the police officer, because it's in your

00:05:42.700 best interest.

00:05:43.720 So what we have to learn to do, and this is where it goes back to ego, we have to put

00:05:48.260 our best interest to the side and listen to what that person's best interest is, or focus

00:05:54.480 on what Ryan's best interest is, not just on what Jeffrey's best interest is.

00:06:00.480 Well, and I imagine also that in the agency, and you spent a lot of time in the military

00:06:04.900 with the CIA as well, that when you were listening in that role, depending on who it was, you were

00:06:11.520 trying to read between the lines and try to gather intel and information about potential

00:06:18.680 threats.

00:06:19.520 But when we're operating on a daily basis with our significant other or our colleagues,

00:06:25.620 when we're listening, what is it that we would be listening for?

00:06:28.760 And what lines are we trying to read between?

00:06:31.600 Well, that's very true.

00:06:33.200 And what you have to do when you're listening is don't try to do that.

00:06:39.700 Don't try and read between the lines, but actually just try and listen to what you're

00:06:44.160 being told.

00:06:45.380 Frequently, we spend so much time looking for the message between the lines that we miss

00:06:49.940 the message entirely.

00:06:51.580 So that's why sometimes you just have to simply listen to what they're saying and focus on

00:06:57.180 what you're being told.

00:06:58.640 And then that becomes an active listening.

00:07:01.100 I mean, active listening is an exercise.

00:07:04.080 So how do you active listen?

00:07:05.600 Well, you make eye contact.

00:07:06.940 You nod your head or make some kind of confirming reaction that, yes, I understand what you're

00:07:13.360 telling me.

00:07:14.080 So that begins to engage the listener with the speaker.

00:07:18.240 And that's what we have to continue to do.

00:07:20.760 And that's something that we're not generally taught.

00:07:22.520 I think one of the challenges that I've run into is that when you are listening to what

00:07:28.940 they're saying, a lot of people aren't actually communicating what they're genuinely feeling

00:07:35.360 or what they're experiencing because they're running it through filters and they're trying

00:07:38.960 to keep themselves protected.

00:07:41.280 So if you're not reading between the lines, how do you get then to the root of issues that

00:07:45.960 people might just be scratching the surface on?

00:07:48.120 Well, you brought a couple of good topics up, and this is one of the challenges we face

00:07:54.760 when we're listening to somebody.

00:07:57.900 One of the type of listeners that we ran into in the agency are what you call reloaders.

00:08:03.580 They are not talking while I'm talking, but at the same time, they're not listening because

00:08:09.840 they're busy reloading their response that they're going to shoot me when I stop talking.

00:08:14.520 So that's not even being a good listener to start with, although they're being quiet

00:08:18.460 and maybe they're nodding their head, but their thought process is not, what am I saying

00:08:23.240 to them?

00:08:24.160 So that's one of the first things we need to overcome.

00:08:27.820 And after that, we do need to understand how to simply stop talking, stop reloading, and just

00:08:37.180 listen to what we're being told.

00:08:39.600 With reloading, that's always been an interesting dynamic.

00:08:43.720 I've never heard that term.

00:08:45.160 I'm familiar with the concept.

00:08:47.200 It just seems like if you're not thinking about your next question or your next point

00:08:52.700 or your next idea, when somebody's done talking, then you just have this awkward silence of

00:09:02.160 processing or...

00:09:04.060 Yes.

00:09:04.240 Like, it seems like there's a balance between, let me think about how I'm going to respond

00:09:10.100 to this person while I'm actively listening to them.

00:09:12.760 We're very impatient.

00:09:14.720 We want an immediate response and we want to respond immediately.

00:09:18.020 Instead of letting the gentleman or the lady or your colleague, boss, whatever, whatever,

00:09:23.720 complete their thought, we're so busy thinking about the response that we're going to miss

00:09:28.880 what they're saying.

00:09:30.460 And at the same time, the speaker, who also has to be an active listener, has to allow

00:09:36.820 the listener time to process.

00:09:40.220 Sometimes that means the listener has to say, wait a second.

00:09:44.480 Hold on a second here.

00:09:46.620 Let me think about this for a minute.

00:09:48.320 So, what you're saying is, and that's the active listening, is repeating back what you

00:09:54.260 heard in your own words.

00:09:56.840 So, what you're saying is that some people don't listen very well.

00:10:01.760 Is that correct?

00:10:02.800 And that's how you get the going back and forth and the dialogue, where you have an active

00:10:12.380 dialogue.

00:10:12.860 That's what we have to do, that's what we have to participate in, is an active dialogue

00:10:18.140 where the person is listening, waiting for a response.

00:10:25.040 I mean, I'm sure that you've been in meetings with your boss, whatever he was called, and

00:10:32.580 when you're done talking to him, you stop talking.

00:10:38.440 And the boss has all the time to process it, he wants.

00:10:43.400 He can sit there and go, hmm, and you're not going to talk anymore because that's not

00:10:48.200 the nature of that relationship.

00:10:50.000 And we have to apply that same submissiveness, if I can use that word, and I use that word

00:10:56.380 very carefully, to the other relationships that we're having.

00:11:01.340 And again, to be submissive or passive requires you to check your ego.

00:11:06.080 So when I'm talking to my wife, I have to let her talk, let her get everything out, and

00:11:13.900 boy, does she like to talk.

00:11:15.680 But anyway, get everything out, and then when I'm sure she's done, I repeat the point back

00:11:21.720 to her to make sure I understood.

00:11:23.420 And that's an active dialogue.

00:11:25.100 That's an active engagement.

00:11:26.500 And the longer you're married, the better you get at it, the less dialogue time you actually

00:11:32.020 need because you can read body language and you know each other, et cetera, et cetera.

00:11:35.100 But if you're not in that kind of relationship, you have to let that person finish speaking.

00:11:41.560 And then when you're done speaking, they have to allow you time to process as well.

00:11:46.620 We need to give each other time to process.

00:11:48.660 We're not supercomputers that go at whatever speed.

00:11:51.720 We have to think, well, how's that going to impact me?

00:11:55.780 How's that going to impact my family or my kids?

00:12:00.280 Okay, but what about this?

00:12:02.040 Then again, that's where you get into the active dialogue.

00:12:04.160 Right, yeah, that makes sense.

00:12:05.740 And you know, one thing I've often thought about too is that I've had to practice myself

00:12:10.260 is not interrupting people, like letting them finish.

00:12:14.120 But also, tell me what you think about this.

00:12:16.920 There's a point at which somebody is just droning on and on and on and on and belaboring

00:12:23.700 points that don't need to be belabored.

00:12:26.320 Is that appropriate in those contexts to say, hold on, let's talk about what you just said

00:12:33.180 before we move on to the next point?

00:12:34.580 Or hold on, let me interrupt you to make sure I'm understanding.

00:12:37.260 There's nothing wrong or inappropriate with interrupting someone, politely, of course.

00:12:45.720 Interrupting someone and saying, wait, wait, wait, let me make, I did that to my wife.

00:12:50.140 I think I did it not that long ago this morning.

00:12:53.160 She made a point and she was well under her second point.

00:12:55.480 And it's like, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

00:12:57.640 You said this and what?

00:12:59.420 And then we go on with the conversation.

00:13:02.860 So there's nothing wrong with that.

00:13:04.440 And that's why sometimes people talking tend to get so far ahead of themselves that they

00:13:11.920 don't give the listener a chance to respond.

00:13:14.220 This is where, again, you get down into your basic communications where you're listening

00:13:18.680 and then you're talking and then you're being able to have a responsive dialogue as opposed

00:13:25.120 to sometimes, you know, spouses don't have a responsive dialogue.

00:13:30.600 They have the wife telling you what to do or the husband yelling back or whatever.

00:13:34.580 So a good dialogue gives people time to respond.

00:13:38.420 At the same time, a response doesn't need to beat the horse to death.

00:13:46.220 And, you know, this is sometimes where we have problems because we tend to, depending on

00:13:52.380 who it is, we tend to tune it out and go back to watching the TV show or reading a book or

00:13:57.060 driving a car or whatever.

00:13:58.960 So we just have to keep that in mind when we're the person that's delivering a point.

00:14:03.920 Once you've delivered your point, chances are you can stop because if they're not going

00:14:10.960 to change what they're doing after the point, the first, you know, two or three times, you

00:14:15.740 need to have a different discussion.

00:14:17.200 Well, it seems like if you, and I've, I'm guilty of this, but it seems like if you continue

00:14:23.560 to belabor that point, not only are you not going to get the required, uh, the, the desired

00:14:29.100 result, you're actually probably going to build additional barriers, barriers and walls between

00:14:33.820 you and who you're trying to communicate with.

00:14:35.520 They'll shut down completely.

00:14:37.480 Yes, that's absolutely correct.

00:14:38.820 So if you're going to keep telling me that, you know, I shouldn't be going so fast if I'm

00:14:43.540 driving, it's like, I'm driving, leave me alone, um, or something to that effect.

00:14:49.420 And yeah, it will shut down.

00:14:50.540 And it doesn't, it doesn't enhance communication, especially in relationships that require

00:14:55.740 communication, like a marriage or any kind of partnership.

00:14:59.340 Right.

00:15:00.460 When you were talking earlier about this, uh, this submissive term is what you used.

00:15:05.400 And I know it was kind of a, maybe it's not the best term, the immediate thoughts.

00:15:08.800 And I'd like to hear what you have to say about this that came to mind is number one,

00:15:13.320 just a level of humility.

00:15:14.440 And that's letting go of the ego, like you talked about earlier.

00:15:17.860 But the other term that came to mind for me was assertiveness.

00:15:21.500 I think a lot of the times we think that assertiveness is pressing forward in a respectful

00:15:26.220 way.

00:15:26.600 But I think being assertive is allowing people in this context, the space they need to say

00:15:32.340 what they want to say, or if it's the case of an employer to respect the authority or

00:15:38.620 the position that you are both in.

00:15:41.100 Right.

00:15:41.720 And, and that can be respect the position of an employee and my belief that this job won't

00:15:47.920 work or the, why is it this, whatever it may, whatever the problem may be that you're

00:15:51.040 discussing.

00:15:51.780 So yes, you do have to do that actively.

00:15:55.300 You have to be an active listener and give people the opportunity.

00:15:58.800 And that's something that we're, we're not really great at because we don't practice

00:16:03.440 those skills.

00:16:04.420 Again, we go back to your mother, you listen to me or else.

00:16:08.180 That's not really teaching listening or communication.

00:16:11.380 That's why college level courses, you have communication courses.

00:16:15.780 Yeah.

00:16:16.480 Yeah.

00:16:16.800 Well, it's, it's funny that it would take that long.

00:16:19.220 You know, you get to 18, 19, 20 years old before you start having these lessons and

00:16:23.280 instruction on how to communicate properly.

00:16:25.620 But again, it's something that we do every single day, day in and day out all the time.

00:16:31.300 Absolutely.

00:16:32.140 And that was one of the things that in our training for the agency to be, to be an intelligence

00:16:37.100 officer, you, you have to learn to listen and you know, it's frequently challenging.

00:16:44.700 Um, but they expect you to do it anyway, because that's your job.

00:16:48.900 And if you can't check your ego and that's what the training at the farm that we went

00:16:54.500 through to become, uh, operations officers, um, frankly speaking, the first thing that

00:16:59.620 they do is they, they pound your ego into submission and then they slowly build it back

00:17:04.660 up through the training process.

00:17:06.620 Um, because you have to have a pretty good ego if you're going to go out and do what we

00:17:09.880 were doing.

00:17:10.280 Um, but you, you get that ego beat out of you first so that they can shape the ego the

00:17:16.540 way they want it.

00:17:17.520 But if you can't stand to have your ego beat, then that's not the path for you.

00:17:21.960 And I knew people, there was one lawyer who was so impressed with himself as a lawyer that

00:17:27.840 when it came to trying to get trained as a case officer, he was not able to, to be successful

00:17:32.280 because he had this, I'm a lawyer mindset and that didn't work.

00:17:38.200 Do you find that highly educated people tend to be more ego driven or is that just, um,

00:17:45.400 a stereotype that isn't, doesn't really hold weight?

00:17:49.340 No, I haven't really seen that.

00:17:51.280 In fact, I think the opposite may be true in order to become highly educated.

00:17:56.300 They have to go through a somewhat rigorous vetting process.

00:18:00.700 Um, I, I have my master's degree and trust me, the process of writing and submitting a

00:18:06.820 master's thesis, um, is a lot of work and, uh, you get asked a lot of hard questions.

00:18:13.640 So I don't really think advanced education is an impact.

00:18:17.320 And I would almost say that people with advanced educations are accustomed.

00:18:22.400 They have to learn to listen to different viewpoints or they're not going to be able to,

00:18:26.060 to get the advanced education.

00:18:27.380 Now that's not to say that you don't have PhD holders out there who for one reason or

00:18:33.480 another are difficult to communicate with.

00:18:36.000 It could be that their, their focus is just so narrow that they can't communicate.

00:18:42.880 Um, university professors by and large have to be able to communicate.

00:18:47.980 And so they learn that one way or the other, generally speaking, and I'm, I'm speaking

00:18:52.900 somewhat broadly.

00:18:54.520 Sure.

00:18:55.060 I mean, that makes sense though.

00:18:56.020 I, you know, I think about it in the context of experts in other fields, take somebody who's

00:19:00.700 an expert at jujitsu, for example, most of the people who I know who are extremely proficient

00:19:05.560 in martial arts are the most humble people I've ever met because of the requirement in order

00:19:12.180 to get to that level of expertise required to your point earlier, a beating down of the

00:19:17.140 ego over decades and decades.

00:19:21.020 Absolutely.

00:19:21.660 And I think the same applies in education as well.

00:19:24.220 So yeah, you have someone who's got a PhD, but he's had to have his papers, assuming went

00:19:29.700 to a good university, his, everything he's written has been shredded and returned.

00:19:33.320 And that's the other thing they did at the, that's the other one, the other one of the

00:19:36.860 two ways they beat our ego out of us was everything that was written and we just came

00:19:41.200 back completely lined out with red ink because they wanted it done a certain way.

00:19:46.440 And if you weren't even, no one ever knows how to do that.

00:19:48.700 It's, it's a skill we have to learn.

00:19:50.180 But again, if you're going to be offended by having your written word taken away from

00:19:53.800 you, then you're in the wrong career field because any report that is submitted, I can

00:20:00.420 write it.

00:20:00.680 I do my job and collect an intelligence report and I submit it.

00:20:03.980 It's going to go through a dozen hands before it gets into the hands of the senior policy

00:20:11.120 maker.

00:20:11.840 It's going to go through reports officers.

00:20:13.760 It's going to go through senior operations officers.

00:20:16.020 It's going to go through analysts and it's all going to be probably not what you originally

00:20:21.640 wrote, but that's okay.

00:20:23.740 That's the process of making a better product.

00:20:27.820 And this again, again, goes back to ego.

00:20:29.980 What do you mean a better product?

00:20:31.460 It was my best writing ever.

00:20:33.060 Well, yes and no.

00:20:35.260 It might've been your best writing, but it didn't fit into the particular box we wanted

00:20:39.640 it to fit in.

00:20:40.440 So yes, of course we changed it.

00:20:42.300 So you do have to become accustomed to that.

00:20:45.920 You do have to let your ego go.

00:20:48.260 And I think that that is important in almost any relationship is being able to let your

00:20:55.380 ego go and take criticism.

00:20:58.420 Nobody likes to be criticized, but we all up until the day we die can learn something from

00:21:04.780 somebody else.

00:21:05.580 And we have to learn that.

00:21:07.280 And that can be a challenge as well.

00:21:09.640 It's just something that comes with life.

00:21:11.400 And if we are so, as an officer, agency officer, if we're so wedded to our written word, we're

00:21:19.120 going to be disappointed.

00:21:19.900 Or just wedded to our own way of doing it.

00:21:23.840 You know, it's amazing to me, you enter into an organization and sure you bring a set of

00:21:28.000 skills and characteristics that might be unique and that might be a value add to the organization.

00:21:33.160 But at the end of the day, it's that organization.

00:21:36.720 You know, I see this in church.

00:21:37.740 People come to church, a particular faith or denomination, and they say, well, I like everything

00:21:43.580 but this.

00:21:44.880 It's like, well, then go somewhere else because this is how we do it here.

00:21:48.480 And I imagine it's the same thing with the agency or the same thing with a Fortune 500

00:21:54.480 company that somebody might work with.

00:21:56.800 Bring your skills, but also, what's that?

00:21:59.600 Or the church that I go to.

00:22:01.180 I'm president of church council.

00:22:02.480 So it's like, well, we can't really fix that.

00:22:06.300 Yeah.

00:22:06.640 Well, there's, you have a way of doing it.

00:22:10.180 And sure, there's probably some areas where you're open to new insight.

00:22:14.260 But when it comes to the gospel, for example, I would hope that it's a church that feels

00:22:20.080 like they're pretty principled in their approach, at least on an ideological level.

00:22:24.200 Yep.

00:22:25.240 And it should be well known what that level is, or at least no surprise.

00:22:28.680 Once you've gone there two or three times, you should know what's coming at you.

00:22:32.560 Right.

00:22:33.400 Well, I also think there's this growth mindset that people need to have as well.

00:22:37.160 And I think that comes with the tearing down of your ego is, yeah, sure, it's not fun to

00:22:42.560 be criticized or picked apart, but do you want to grow or do you want to be stagnant where

00:22:46.560 you are?

00:22:48.220 And I mean, this is true in everything that we do.

00:22:52.620 And, you know, anybody that thinks that they can't improve themselves, even in a skill that

00:22:58.220 they already have, is just, they're just kidding themselves.

00:23:02.060 I mean, I'm a firearms instructor, actually took a good friend of mine to the gun range

00:23:06.720 yesterday to, to, so he could get certified for his concealed carry permit in the state

00:23:13.360 of Florida.

00:23:14.280 And, you know, no, no one's going to be perfect at the gun range.

00:23:18.720 Someone's going to have better days.

00:23:20.020 Someone's going to have, I go to the gun range frequently.

00:23:22.500 Some days I have good days, some days I don't have good days.

00:23:25.820 And, and I can't get so wrapped around perfection.

00:23:30.320 We, which we try to do, there was only one perfect man and he was around about what, 2000

00:23:37.160 years ago.

00:23:38.420 So we have to recognize we have shortcomings.

00:23:41.580 We have, I don't have as much hair as you do.

00:23:44.480 And, you know, that's just who I am.

00:23:47.540 And we have to be willing to accept our shortcomings, work on them, of course.

00:23:52.020 Um, that doesn't mean we, we don't try and improve, but we need to recognize that we

00:23:57.260 can always improve.

00:23:58.120 We can always get better.

00:23:59.180 We can always do something better.

00:24:00.640 So, and that's, that's, again, that hard ego lesson.

00:24:04.720 What, what was your role within, in the agency?

00:24:07.480 I mean, you spent time in the military and then you started working with the agency.

00:24:10.640 What was it that you were doing there?

00:24:12.220 I was not in the military.

00:24:13.660 Let me clarify that.

00:24:14.760 I was never in the military.

00:24:15.420 Oh, I'm sorry.

00:24:15.820 I thought, I thought that you were for some reason.

00:24:17.400 Um, I was in the Peace Corps and then I was in the private sector and then I, uh, went

00:24:23.660 into the agency.

00:24:25.500 Um, my role in the agency, I was an operations officer.

00:24:28.440 It was my job to steal secrets and recruit spies.

00:24:31.360 Um, it was lots of fun.

00:24:32.740 And I want to thank you and your listeners for paying their taxes because it let me and

00:24:36.700 my family have a good life.

00:24:38.560 And, uh, uh, it's quite interesting.

00:24:42.020 It was very interesting work.

00:24:43.840 Um, I focused largely on, uh, the weapons of mass destruction, mass destruction, the WMDs

00:24:51.460 of the world and in preventing their transfer and movements, uh, to countries that we don't

00:24:56.720 want to have them.

00:24:57.880 And, uh, it was fascinating work.

00:25:00.800 And I can tell you, and I would like your audience to know that the rank and file people

00:25:06.260 that are in the, uh, agency are the best Americans we could ever want there.

00:25:12.740 Uh, in fact, a colleague of mine and I are working on writing a book and it's not going

00:25:18.560 to be about anything operational.

00:25:21.300 It's going to be about the personalities of the people that we engaged with when we were

00:25:26.120 both in the agency.

00:25:27.720 And some of them are just awesome, fascinating.

00:25:31.420 These are third generation folks that worked in the agency.

00:25:35.040 Wonderful people.

00:25:36.500 Is everybody there wonderful?

00:25:38.220 No, goodness.

00:25:38.960 No, um, they have more than their fair share of wankers and egos and everything else.

00:25:45.380 But by and large, um, it is the best of the best because they screen for education.

00:25:52.300 They screen for personality.

00:25:54.060 They screen for many things that allows them to have the best of the best, uh, people come

00:26:02.400 in there and then the same goes with the promotion process, the retention and promotion process.

00:26:08.180 Um, so there are some fascinating people.

00:26:10.900 I mean, I knew one third generation, uh, lady who was ethnic Lebanese and like all Lebanese

00:26:17.960 women, she was a stunning beauty.

00:26:20.540 Um, but sweet as the day is long.

00:26:23.600 And she became good friends with me and she was actually, she actually worked for me.

00:26:28.260 Um, so, you know, we, we had some engaging conversations because she wanted to become an

00:26:33.840 operations officer.

00:26:35.060 She wanted to get into training.

00:26:36.580 And so I took her into my office and closed the door very carefully, knowing that I was

00:26:42.360 going to step onto a landmine if I wasn't careful.

00:26:44.700 And I said, when you go for the interview button, one more button.

00:26:50.920 And she, she, I was just being friendly.

00:26:53.540 I was, you know, it's like, please don't tell anybody I said that because it cost me my job.

00:26:58.140 Um, but she knew the point I was making again, she was very attractive, but she needed to

00:27:02.780 sideline that just a little bit because she, she, if she wanted to get into the program and I don't

00:27:08.740 know if she ever did or not because you know, the agency people move on all the time.

00:27:12.120 Um, but there were other fascinating people that, uh, that I worked with.

00:27:17.240 Um, as I said, the gentleman I had actually had lunch with him yesterday, he and I have known

00:27:21.360 each other for more years than I'm actually allowed to say.

00:27:25.040 So, uh, it's, it's one of those longstanding friendships and it's a longstanding friendship

00:27:31.680 because of shared experiences and shared outlooks and perspectives.

00:27:34.720 I'm sure you have the same kind.

00:27:36.320 Uh, so we're going to work on a book that's just going to be, I think the title,

00:27:42.120 of it's going to be two old spies walk into a bar and two old spies meet in a bar, I should

00:27:49.620 say.

00:27:50.060 And then we just start talking and we just talk about, well, you remember that I just

00:27:54.320 told you about one young lady, remember this young lady, or do you remember that young

00:27:57.400 person or this guy and how much fun he was and how this guy wasn't the sharpest pencil

00:28:01.980 in the drawer.

00:28:02.440 We can never figure out what he, that's what the book's going to be about.

00:28:05.620 Is it going to be about personalities?

00:28:07.280 And that's not to say there's any right or wrong answer because there isn't personalities.

00:28:12.540 I'm sure you've engaged all types, particularly in what you do now.

00:28:16.420 And we're just going to talk about some of the many different personalities that we ran

00:28:20.480 into and how much fun it was.

00:28:22.040 It was a great career.

00:28:23.560 It was lots of fun, lots of entertaining people.

00:28:27.340 We're all of them.

00:28:28.200 Perfect.

00:28:28.720 No, did I want to take a couple out back and have a discussion with them?

00:28:33.040 Yeah, but by and large, outstanding people.

00:28:37.100 And again, that's the message I'd like to deliver is by and large, you have an outstanding

00:28:42.640 cadre of people that work at the agency, that are working on behalf of the American people,

00:28:49.220 that work long hours.

00:28:51.860 I just wrote a paper for a presentation I'm going to give in San Diego at the end of this

00:28:58.360 month, and I talk about the fact that I had had my team in for seven days a week for a

00:29:06.140 month because of what we were working on.

00:29:08.920 We were monitoring some shipping.

00:29:10.820 And then the problem resolved itself.

00:29:13.260 The operation ended.

00:29:14.620 And the next day or two days later, my boss said, you have to bring your team in this weekend

00:29:19.280 again.

00:29:20.580 And I said, no, sir, I'm not going to do that.

00:29:24.780 I'll come in, but not my team.

00:29:27.280 And, you know, I would have to take care of whatever problem there was.

00:29:30.240 And he had enough confidence in me that he accepted that response because he knew I'd

00:29:34.420 take care of the problem.

00:29:36.020 Sure.

00:29:36.600 But it also bordered on insubordination.

00:29:38.580 But again, sometimes that's what you have to do to take care of your people.

00:29:43.260 Man, there's a part of you that knows you were made for more, at least if you're like

00:29:47.320 me, more strength or more purpose, bigger brotherhood, deeper brotherhood, deeper connections.

00:29:52.980 But life, unfortunately, has a way of numbing that fire between work and obligations and

00:29:59.520 the quiet weight of isolation.

00:30:02.240 It's really easy to forget what it means to be a man forged in challenge and discipline

00:30:07.180 and grit.

00:30:08.340 That's why we opened up and decided to run the Men's Forge.

00:30:12.620 It's not just an event.

00:30:14.180 It's a battleground where you can reclaim your edge and strip away excuses, stand shoulder

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00:30:24.100 complacency in their lives.

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00:30:27.400 But on the other side, you're going to find something that very few men actually find,

00:30:30.600 and that's clarity.

00:30:32.040 That's courage.

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00:30:34.460 So this is an event for the man who's tired of drifting.

00:30:38.020 He's ready to lead.

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00:30:46.980 and die with all the potential still inside of him.

00:30:49.380 So check it out.

00:30:50.280 It's called the Men's Forge.

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00:31:07.960 yourself.

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00:31:09.560 Go to themensforge.com.

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00:31:22.060 Well, I mean, I'm sure there's two ways to look at that with your boss.

00:31:27.060 In order for him to accept that response, there had to have been experience knowing that,

00:31:32.280 okay, well, I know he'll get it done.

00:31:33.800 So that's on one hand, and that's a level of trust that you built up over years.

00:31:39.540 If not decades, I imagine.

00:31:41.320 And then on the other hand, with your team, that's also a trust-building opportunity because

00:31:46.120 they know that you're not going to throw them under the bus or make them do things that

00:31:50.300 aren't in their best interest and that you are going to lead from the front.

00:31:53.700 That's an impressive story.

00:31:55.100 The good leaders lead from the front.

00:31:58.440 I hate to say it.

00:31:59.920 This lead from behind is a myth, and it never really works.

00:32:04.800 Yeah.

00:32:05.760 When you talk about personalities, hiring for personalities within the agency, were there

00:32:09.880 certain, you know, of course, there's a lot of different personalities and a lot of different

00:32:13.080 roles within the agency as well that I imagine require a different set of personalities and

00:32:17.680 characteristics, but generally speaking, are there some common threads that the agency

00:32:23.600 is looking for when it comes to the type of people they hire?

00:32:27.600 Well, I can only really address operations officers.

00:32:31.900 And we're actually, I think, the smallest group of employees.

00:32:37.180 They have literally tens of thousands of analysts.

00:32:42.340 But the collectors that are out in the field tend to be a relatively small number.

00:32:49.420 And yes, there are certain characteristics that they hire for.

00:32:55.440 Minimum college degree is one thing.

00:32:58.360 You have to have at least a bachelor's, and they really prefer a master's.

00:33:01.300 Um, so you have to be well-educated and being well-educated doesn't mean that you know a

00:33:08.700 lot of facts.

00:33:09.640 What that means is you know how to think and apply processes to getting jobs done, because

00:33:15.700 um, I'm going to guess that you are familiar with the story of Rahab and Phineas and Caleb

00:33:23.180 and Jericho.

00:33:24.880 And when the walls came tumbling down, Rahab was the harlot.

00:33:28.940 Phineas and Caleb were the two spies that Joshua sent in to Jericho.

00:33:34.420 They did that 3,500 years ago.

00:33:36.720 So how long has espionage been around?

00:33:39.020 Which is the world's oldest question?

00:33:40.100 Very long time.

00:33:40.820 Is it prostitution or is it espionage?

00:33:42.900 And, you know, we've been working together for 3,500 years.

00:33:45.460 So there are some characteristics like that, that they, they have to appeal to.

00:33:53.880 So again, education is one of them.

00:33:56.260 Personality ability.

00:33:57.780 You, you have to be able to talk to people.

00:34:00.100 If you can't talk to people, you're not going to really be able to get the job done.

00:34:05.240 You have to have the ability to write and to understand the, the questions that you're

00:34:15.900 being asked.

00:34:16.540 Keep in mind, as an operations officer, I didn't come up with the questions that I was going

00:34:20.460 to ask the assets that I was handling.

00:34:23.080 That was done by the analysts or the congressional staff or whatever, whatever, who said, gosh,

00:34:30.020 I wonder about this.

00:34:31.080 And then that question filtered its way down to me and I had to put that question into terms

00:34:38.720 that the source was going to be able to respond to.

00:34:42.140 So again, you have to be able to think through, you have to be able to understand and simplify

00:34:47.140 complex topics, whether it's, uh, weapons of mass destruction, uh, research programs or

00:34:55.360 telecommunications networks or, or, or military planning.

00:35:00.040 You have to be able to break those down into individual questions that an asset can respond

00:35:07.620 to.

00:35:08.600 So does that mean you need to have a PhD in nuclear physics?

00:35:12.340 No, but you have to be able to think about, okay, how do I break this, this, this topic

00:35:18.540 down into questions that the asset can respond to?

00:35:22.380 Then you have to be able to ask those questions and write the response.

00:35:26.200 The biggest skill for an intelligence officer.

00:35:28.840 And they told me this when I first interviewed was writing.

00:35:32.620 This was, I'm not going to tell you how long ago, long time ago, but I was also told, learn

00:35:38.560 how to type.

00:35:40.060 Ah, there's a reason for that.

00:35:42.980 Everything's done on a computer these days.

00:35:44.940 You have to be able to type if you're going to hunt and peck like this.

00:35:47.780 And I knew guys like that.

00:35:49.080 It's too long.

00:35:49.880 They were all night at the farm through training because they're doing this.

00:35:54.460 So again, fundamental skills like being able to write is just so important.

00:35:59.860 And we don't do a good job of teaching it on a general level.

00:36:05.040 Of course, there are English programs and such that do a good job, but by and large, to get

00:36:10.580 a bachelor's degree, we take one English class, maybe an English literature class.

00:36:16.340 It's got nothing to do with writing.

00:36:18.620 So you have to be a good writer and be able to develop that skill if you don't have it.

00:36:25.820 Because everything is done in the written word.

00:36:28.300 It doesn't matter.

00:36:29.800 You can, you know, have an asteroid land in your backyard, but if it's not in an intelligence

00:36:35.340 report in the proper written format, no one's going to know about it because no one cares.

00:36:39.620 It didn't happen.

00:36:40.140 It's not going to read it.

00:36:40.660 Well, and I imagine too, there's a heavy emphasis on, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but more

00:36:48.480 of the softer skills than the harder skills.

00:36:50.300 I mean, anybody can learn to type.

00:36:51.820 You can learn that.

00:36:52.580 And I'm not saying that you shouldn't come with some of those hard skills already well

00:36:57.400 established, but I imagine it's infinitely harder to come up with a intelligent list of

00:37:04.120 questions to ask your assets, for example.

00:37:06.140 And then there's language and cultural barriers and walls that a person has to adapt and overcome.

00:37:13.220 So I imagine that's infinitely harder to train than teaching somebody to write or type, you

00:37:19.000 know, 70 words a minute or whatever it is.

00:37:21.020 I don't disagree with anything that you're saying.

00:37:23.580 Yes, that is the skill.

00:37:26.520 The interpersonal skills that you're describing are critical.

00:37:30.160 And then if you don't have them, you're not going to be successful.

00:37:33.980 And, but the same applies to communication skills.

00:37:37.060 If you can't communicate what the intelligence that you've obtained, then you're not going

00:37:41.800 to be successful either.

00:37:42.980 And there are, there are certain formats that are required when you're submitting your emails

00:37:52.020 and your intelligence reports.

00:37:53.360 And it's that way because you have people in the agency that read up to 200 reports a day.

00:38:03.500 So, um, I had a guy work for me.

00:38:07.340 He just got his master's degree and his very first report that he wanted me to send out,

00:38:13.300 um, his first email that I had to approve sending out was like, are you kidding me?

00:38:19.040 Try again, take out all these $10 words and let's use simple sentences.

00:38:22.700 When I was, became a supervisor, I learned a difference between compound, complex, and

00:38:27.680 whatever the other one is, sentences.

00:38:29.760 I mean, we had to write simple sentences so people could read them.

00:38:33.360 And when I had people working for me, if I counted more than four lines in one sentence,

00:38:37.180 I kicked it back because it's, they're not going to be able to read it.

00:38:40.100 I, I remember getting a report about someone in Europe that had gone to a meeting.

00:38:48.500 It's officer submitted a report.

00:38:50.060 He'd gone to a meeting and the first two paragraphs were all about the traffic getting

00:38:54.460 to the meeting.

00:38:55.760 I had no idea what the third paragraph said because I quit reading it.

00:38:59.440 I didn't have time.

00:39:00.640 If he was going to waste my time reading about traffic, he's not a serious officer and he

00:39:06.140 needs to, he needs to go back to school and figure out how to submit those kinds of reports.

00:39:10.500 There's a place for it.

00:39:11.460 Absolutely.

00:39:12.580 But by and large, they need to learn.

00:39:14.600 I mean, we, we call it PT buff, which stands for put the benefits up front.

00:39:20.840 So if I'm reading something, I need to see, it needs to say, so this, this, this happened

00:39:26.100 on this day and this is the problem.

00:39:28.080 Okay.

00:39:28.600 Then I'll keep reading.

00:39:29.580 But to say traffic was oh so bad on the highway, uh, I just quit reading.

00:39:35.360 Well, I imagine that's pretty, but not, I imagine it is actually applicable to ordinary

00:39:40.940 everyday civilians as well.

00:39:42.340 If you're sending an email to a, even a text to a friend about a get together you're having

00:39:48.480 or an email to your boss about the new project and how that's working, like PT buff, like

00:39:53.700 you said, put the benefits up front.

00:39:55.140 And if you make it easy for them to get the benefits, then they will appreciate your communication

00:40:00.440 skill.

00:40:01.220 And at the end of the day, when it comes promotion time, that will make a difference.

00:40:05.900 You know, how well does this colleague communicate with his superiors, his supportants and his

00:40:12.220 colleagues?

00:40:13.080 And if everybody said, yeah, this guy is a good communicator, then that's going to make

00:40:16.660 a difference.

00:40:17.540 And when they see people like that being promoted, that's going to make a difference.

00:40:21.480 Was there, or, or I should say, how much consideration was given to the line between a person's ability

00:40:30.000 to comply and their ability to, for lack of a better term, to rebel or to deviate when

00:40:38.360 appropriate?

00:40:40.200 So let's go back to the story of Phineas and Caleb.

00:40:44.880 They were vegetable salesmen in Jericho.

00:40:47.560 That was their cover and the thing you have with intelligence officers, and this is something

00:40:55.140 that the CIA is exceptionally good at, is they give the officer in the field a hundred percent

00:41:02.880 latitude.

00:41:04.120 Whatever decision I make in the field is a decision that I made in the field.

00:41:09.120 Now, am I going to explain why I made this decision?

00:41:12.700 Absolutely.

00:41:13.080 And so this happened, and I did this, and I did this, and I did this.

00:41:17.900 This was the outcome.

00:41:19.800 Okay.

00:41:20.360 They accept that.

00:41:21.820 I want to say at face value, but that seems to diminish it when you say that.

00:41:26.100 They accept that as the written truth, because one thing that they require as much as anything

00:41:32.660 else is integrity.

00:41:33.740 So they have to know that I am being completely forthcoming, good news or bad news, in whatever

00:41:42.440 emails or report I'm submitting.

00:41:45.440 And we all have bad news.

00:41:49.660 Bad things happen to us in work all the time, particularly when you're in a field that is

00:41:54.940 as rife with landmines as intelligence.

00:41:58.420 You know, I tell people this, I tell this in writing, in my reports on leadership, my

00:42:03.340 presentations on leadership.

00:42:05.900 If you're not making a mistake once in a while, you're not really trying your best.

00:42:12.360 And that was the lesson that I taught people.

00:42:15.080 And, you know, let me just give you a quick example.

00:42:18.500 I had a lady come to me one day and say that we're tracking a shipment of WMD related goods,

00:42:23.860 and it was coming from Asia, going to someplace in the Middle East where we didn't want it.

00:42:28.220 She came to me and said, I think it's probably already gone.

00:42:33.060 We're probably not going to be able to interdict it or do anything about it.

00:42:36.340 So I just wanted to let you know.

00:42:37.780 And my response was, no, ma'am, we swing at every pitch.

00:42:42.140 You get the email out all along the route.

00:42:45.120 You think this thing's going.

00:42:46.740 Let's get everybody looking at this, see what we can do about it.

00:42:50.720 I had empowered her to fail.

00:42:52.320 I'd said, we're going to do this anyway.

00:42:55.060 So if it's a failure, it's not her responsibility, it's mine.

00:42:58.680 Because I said, we're going to do this anyway.

00:43:01.320 So by empowering her to fail, she went back.

00:43:05.480 She did what needed to be done.

00:43:07.200 The word got out.

00:43:08.360 And the next morning she came to me and said, chief, we caught it.

00:43:12.500 We caught it.

00:43:13.380 We turned it around and we sent it back home.

00:43:16.040 For which she got a performance award.

00:43:18.580 So you empower your people to fail.

00:43:21.300 Which means they're going to take chances and try harder.

00:43:25.500 And when they succeed, you reward them.

00:43:29.240 This is not PhD level leadership or management.

00:43:34.460 This is common sense.

00:43:36.660 Anybody who's had kids should know, you know, you want your child to try.

00:43:41.760 Oops, he fell.

00:43:42.760 Oh, well, get up.

00:43:43.720 Stop crying.

00:43:44.540 Dust yourself off.

00:43:45.840 Let's try again.

00:43:46.460 And that's how we want to encourage our employees as well.

00:43:50.780 They're going to fall once in a while and we're going to pick them up and dust them off.

00:43:54.600 If they fall all the time, we need to have a different discussion.

00:43:58.400 But if they're not falling once in a while, they're not trying to run fast enough or whatever.

00:44:03.520 You understand my analogy.

00:44:04.580 So that's just a very important.

00:44:06.880 It was important to me.

00:44:08.560 There was never there were only there were two statements that got people kicked out of my office when I first started working at headquarters.

00:44:15.500 We've never done it this way.

00:44:17.120 We've always done it this way.

00:44:19.220 Those are the death now of innovation and creativity.

00:44:23.800 And I only had to kick two people out of my office for saying that.

00:44:29.440 And they never said it in my office again because I want them to come with crazy ideas.

00:44:34.580 When I took over a very large office in Northern Virginia, the next the first thing I did when I had a big staff meeting was I had everybody stand up, move your chairs, pick up the table, put the table against the wall, bring the tables back in the middle.

00:44:49.920 So we just all sat in chairs around nothing.

00:44:52.540 Well, the idea is there's nothing to stop communication.

00:44:57.260 There's nothing between us.

00:44:59.500 A good idea can come from anybody at any level.

00:45:03.040 You can have the newest, most junior graduate from the farm come in and say, what about this idea?

00:45:08.800 Everybody goes, that's a great idea.

00:45:10.820 We never thought of that.

00:45:12.720 But if you have barriers to that, whether they be a physical barrier like a table or an office door or whatever it may be, or the mental barrier.

00:45:21.620 Well, he's the boss and got to be careful.

00:45:24.000 Don't say that to the boss.

00:45:25.720 Right.

00:45:26.420 That style stifles creativity.

00:45:28.180 And back to Phineas and Caleb, 3,500 years ago, you don't think we have to keep reinventing good ways to collect intelligence?

00:45:37.420 Absolutely, we do.

00:45:39.140 The old rules apply, but we still have to become creative and come up with new and better ideas or new ideas.

00:45:47.120 Not necessarily better ideas, but new ideas on how to do our jobs.

00:45:51.480 It is interesting because it seems to me in culture, we generally tend to over-index failure and we put so much emphasis on failure.

00:45:59.940 Now, I know that the stakes that you were playing were probably a little greater than maybe most of us play.

00:46:06.300 I also think maybe a brain surgeon has a greater stake in not making a mistake than I do, for example.

00:46:14.320 But generally speaking, it's really okay to fail and it's not most of the time that big a deal if you can learn some lessons from it.

00:46:24.240 You can be unique or creative in trying ideas that maybe stick or don't.

00:46:29.140 It just seems that goes back to the growth mindset that we were talking about earlier.

00:46:32.880 And in the agency, one of the ways they reduced failure is through the approval process.

00:46:41.800 And I think your brain surgeon is a good example.

00:46:44.820 A brain surgeon is not by himself.

00:46:46.880 He has another doctor there with him.

00:46:48.780 He has an anesthesiologist.

00:46:50.980 He's got a nursing staff.

00:46:52.920 And they're all, they're not quite on equal footing, but they are sort of.

00:46:57.920 So the nurse can say, hey, you know, you left the scalpel inside or whatever the case may be.

00:47:03.500 And as a supervisor, I want someone to say, hey, you left the scalpel inside to protect me from my own mistakes.

00:47:11.140 And that's how we work as a team.

00:47:12.800 We protect each other from our own shortcomings because we all have them.

00:47:16.700 We may say, no, I'm, I don't have any shortcomings.

00:47:19.400 I'm the best thing since sliced bread, but that's a lie.

00:47:22.320 So we have teams to protect ourselves.

00:47:25.100 We have, whether it's a secretary or assistant manager or whatever, you know, however you want to call them.

00:47:32.320 That's protecting us and helping us do a better job.

00:47:35.880 Yeah.

00:47:36.540 Well, to shift gears a little bit, I've always been a little bit curious about how, how you were able to enlist.

00:47:43.520 The term you've used is assets and how you were able to enlist assets or spies,

00:47:48.580 those people with secrets that were willing to give them up to the United States with some of those cultural barriers

00:47:54.200 and with some of loyalty to other countries and upbringings and religious perspectives.

00:48:01.420 That seems like such a tall order.

00:48:03.780 And I've always been curious how, how you enlist and recruit those individuals.

00:48:11.120 You are, you are correct in your assumption that it is not a straightforward, easy daily activity.

00:48:17.800 I bet there is a system it's called spot, assess, develop, recruit, handle, terminate.

00:48:27.500 That's what's known as the asset cycle.

00:48:31.180 First, Congressman Jones says, Hey, I want to know about this, that they're doing in that country.

00:48:36.340 Okay.

00:48:37.160 Requirement goes out to the field.

00:48:39.620 Chief of station goes, okay, can we answer these questions?

00:48:43.360 Well, the reports officers, no, we don't have any assets that can respond to those questions.

00:48:49.140 Okay.

00:48:50.160 Where do we find them?

00:48:51.320 And then the operational process begins.

00:48:53.760 And it is a complex process.

00:48:56.880 It starts with spotting.

00:48:58.680 What does that mean?

00:48:59.460 That means that a whole bunch of smart people, some of the operations officers like myself,

00:49:05.740 we'll sit around and go, Hey, I know we're looking for somebody.

00:49:09.800 I'll make it, I'll use an easy one.

00:49:11.900 We're looking for somebody in the ministry of defense.

00:49:14.400 So there's a ministry of defense reception for the embassy Friday night.

00:49:19.740 So I'm going to go and see what I can find.

00:49:22.600 And so, you know, they go to these receptions and sure enough, there's three people from the ministry of defense.

00:49:30.120 And so they begin a relationship.

00:49:32.900 That's the spotting part.

00:49:34.400 So they've spotted them, they get their name, they get, you know, whatever idea, business card, whatever they have.

00:49:43.500 They exchange business cards.

00:49:45.100 Then they take a look at that person into the files.

00:49:47.780 You know, what, what has this person done in the past?

00:49:50.300 Have they tried to approach this person in the past?

00:49:52.940 And if so, what was the outcome?

00:49:55.120 Was he, did he shrug it off?

00:49:56.900 Non-responsive, not interested.

00:49:58.820 Did he call and complain to the boss?

00:50:00.560 Did he call the ambassador and say, hey, you guys talking to me like this and I don't like that?

00:50:05.440 No.

00:50:05.700 So what is the history with this guy, if any?

00:50:08.980 And then assuming everything comes back, then, you know, the people, the analysts at headquarters are going to take a look and say, okay, it looks like this guy may have access to what we want to know.

00:50:23.460 Okay.

00:50:23.800 Then begins the developmental process, no, spot assess, then begins the assessment process.

00:50:31.940 So you're talking to him, you take him to lunch, take him to dinner, whatever.

00:50:36.700 And again, you're filling this assessment in.

00:50:39.500 If the guy is picture perfect, has a perfect marriage, is financially happy and has no problems in life, then that's going to be tough.

00:50:47.620 Right.

00:50:47.900 There's no reason for an individual like that to flip or anything like that, I imagine.

00:50:51.820 It doesn't always work to his advantage.

00:50:55.660 And believe it or not, everybody does what's to their advantage.

00:50:58.200 You do, I do, everybody does.

00:51:00.120 Of course.

00:51:01.000 Yeah.

00:51:01.320 So then we maybe, or the information comes back after several months, whatever meetings.

00:51:08.760 So I hate using this, but it does clarify the topic.

00:51:13.500 His child's sick.

00:51:15.000 They can't afford the doctor.

00:51:16.920 Well, we're happy to help with that.

00:51:19.360 By the way, there's an embassy doctor that would be more than happy to take a look and make recommendations.

00:51:26.020 And all of a sudden, you know, you're taking this gentleman into a safe house and the doctor comes in and it comes in with the wife and the daughter or whatever the child.

00:51:35.780 And the doc looks at him and says, sure, I got this.

00:51:38.500 I'll take care of it.

00:51:39.240 Let me get the meds back at the embassy and we'll bring them.

00:51:41.500 We'll send them out to you.

00:51:42.280 So all of a sudden, you have a very different level of a relationship.

00:51:47.500 The trick is to move the relationship from a business level meeting.

00:51:53.940 Yes, I'm trying to sell this or this or that to a personal level.

00:51:59.800 How's your son?

00:52:01.100 Is there your daughter?

00:52:01.980 Is he okay?

00:52:03.140 Did the medicine help?

00:52:04.320 And so you begin that personal relationship.

00:52:08.620 And then, you know, again, this takes time.

00:52:10.960 And then, you know, somebody has a birthday coming up.

00:52:14.200 Oh, your daughter's birthday is next month.

00:52:16.300 What can I get her?

00:52:17.940 Get her a nice gift.

00:52:19.140 Your wife's birthday is coming up.

00:52:21.000 What can I get?

00:52:21.660 Get her a nice gift.

00:52:22.940 So you begin an exchange of gifts.

00:52:25.660 It tends to be one way.

00:52:26.920 But again, it helps them develop a sense of their importance to the officer.

00:52:33.360 That's the developmental process.

00:52:35.160 And then while you're going through that, you may say, so, you know, I know you work in

00:52:41.460 the office and if this makes you uncomfortable, we don't have to talk about it.

00:52:44.080 But I was just curious, what about this policy on narcotics since they don't collect on

00:52:51.260 narcotics anymore?

00:52:51.940 They used to.

00:52:52.360 They don't anymore.

00:52:52.940 They put that aside after 9-11.

00:52:54.600 What about your government's policy on narcotics?

00:52:59.200 Do you see that changing anytime soon?

00:53:01.820 Well, you know, and then you begin the discussion on collecting the intelligence.

00:53:06.660 And then you go down that path a couple of times.

00:53:09.920 And then it's like, well, you know, that information that you provided really made a lot of people

00:53:15.180 happy.

00:53:15.900 And so they wanted me to give you this little gift.

00:53:18.080 And it's, you know, $100, $500, $1,000, whatever's appropriate.

00:53:21.600 And then all of a sudden they see dollar signs and you're a friend.

00:53:28.420 They trust you.

00:53:30.400 So you take that trust and you monetize it, if I can use that term.

00:53:36.220 And that's, again, that's a little bit degrading, but it's what we do.

00:53:38.360 So you monetize the trust, you develop a relationship, and then you move to more and more sensitive

00:53:44.160 information.

00:53:45.420 You may transfer him to somebody else, turn him over, and then it goes to a higher and

00:53:51.900 higher level.

00:53:53.000 That's the recruitment process.

00:53:54.760 And again, it's been working since the time of Phineas and Caleb.

00:53:58.940 So, and it still works today.

00:54:00.740 Does it work every time?

00:54:02.220 Absolutely not.

00:54:03.040 Um, that's why it tends to be a slow process so that if you realize you're starting to get

00:54:11.460 on somebody's nerves, that they either redirect or pull back.

00:54:16.660 I had a gentleman I was developing and everything was going great.

00:54:21.780 And he was a military officer going great.

00:54:24.480 And then all of a sudden I asked him about their missile defense system.

00:54:28.660 Wow.

00:54:29.880 He went berserk on me.

00:54:31.980 Why do you want to know that?

00:54:33.680 What?

00:54:34.100 I mean, he let go on me.

00:54:36.240 And of course, then I'm doing the, you know, the famous backup two-step.

00:54:40.320 Sorry, sorry, sorry.

00:54:41.900 So you do the backup two-step, you readjust, and then you continue on.

00:54:47.720 And that's what happened.

00:54:48.500 I readjusted.

00:54:49.380 We continued the discussion.

00:54:50.820 We continued the relationship.

00:54:52.560 But I never asked him that question again.

00:54:55.060 So I found the limit.

00:54:56.840 Again, if you're not, if you're not failing once in a while, you're not testing your limits.

00:55:00.480 How often does it come up where an officer, I think, is that the right term?

00:55:05.360 Like an officer?

00:55:06.360 Yes, or intelligence officers.

00:55:07.660 FBI has agents.

00:55:08.960 We have officers.

00:55:10.320 Got it.

00:55:10.940 So how often would it be the case that an officer would get so close to this person on a personal level that the officer becomes ineffective or compromised?

00:55:20.720 Is that fairly common?

00:55:22.500 No, it's extremely uncommon.

00:55:24.940 Not saying it never happens.

00:55:28.380 Aldrich Ames, I think, was the last one that I can think of who became so enamored with his asset that he married that he began working for the Russians.

00:55:38.820 Oh.

00:55:39.680 Yeah, that was a big mess.

00:55:42.720 When was that?

00:55:43.180 A lot of people.

00:55:43.960 What's that?

00:55:44.540 When was that?

00:55:45.960 Where was I?

00:55:46.860 Was it 95, I think?

00:55:49.200 Okay, yeah.

00:55:50.160 Something like that.

00:55:50.860 So quite a while.

00:55:51.820 Yeah, quite a while.

00:55:52.800 They still have officers that screw up, but he working for the Russians is not screwing up.

00:55:59.980 That's all a different topic.

00:56:01.720 And as you can imagine, it costs millions and millions of dollars to fix the damage that he created.

00:56:06.100 When you're in a personal business, and again, this is why when you're in the organization, you're under a lot of scrutiny, whether it's reporting your financial records.

00:56:18.800 How often?

00:56:19.380 I think every five years we had to provide our financial records.

00:56:24.140 Your personal financial records.

00:56:25.700 Yes.

00:56:26.060 Got it.

00:56:26.480 Okay.

00:56:26.640 Um, and you know, again, you take a polygraph, there's ongoing assessments, your boss is paying attention, everybody's paying attention because we're all looking for the next counterintelligence threat.

00:56:37.420 And that's not to say that we don't trust each other.

00:56:40.080 We do.

00:56:40.800 It's not to say we don't develop close personal relationships with one another.

00:56:44.300 We do.

00:56:45.280 But we also pay attention to, and we can see the signs.

00:56:48.500 If someone's going to slip up, it's like, yeah, we need to take a look at this guy and find out what his deal is because we want to save him.

00:56:54.920 We want to protect him.

00:56:55.700 If this guy suddenly find out, say, he's having real financial issues, why?

00:57:00.120 What caused it?

00:57:01.220 How can we help?

00:57:02.440 That's the first response.

00:57:04.460 And then if it gets out of hand, that's a different story entirely.

00:57:08.180 The financial issues would potentially represent a vulnerability.

00:57:11.900 Is that why you would look at that?

00:57:13.680 Yes.

00:57:14.260 Got it.

00:57:14.780 Okay.

00:57:15.120 See, that's one of the myths.

00:57:16.480 I hate to say it.

00:57:18.160 The myth is it's all about the money.

00:57:20.500 It's not.

00:57:21.460 It's all about the ego.

00:57:22.620 And even when we do paperwork on people we recruited, which they have to do it every year, the question is, it's written, how much money does it take to control him?

00:57:35.060 The truth is, we're never controlled by money.

00:57:38.360 We're influenced, but we're never controlled by it.

00:57:40.960 And it's the personality and the relationship between the officer and the asset that has the greatest influence.

00:57:48.400 And that's, again, it goes back to that's why we have such a strict vetting process, a strict training process, and a strict oversight process so we can make sure that that's all going in the right direction.

00:58:01.460 What are other, you had said that you look for individuals who might be slipping up or falling behind?

00:58:07.760 You talked about financial constraints.

00:58:09.580 Are there other red flags that would notify you, like, oh, this is a person we need to keep our eye on or have a conversation with?

00:58:16.140 We go through regular training, annual training, and, you know, there's a couple indicators.

00:58:24.100 One is finances.

00:58:26.080 A second indicator is working a weird schedule.

00:58:30.200 Why are they always coming in late and leaving late when everybody else is already gone?

00:58:35.240 What are they doing there by themselves?

00:58:36.840 So, again, weird work schedules, one to look at, potential relationship issues, although that's a little bit harder to pin down because not everybody's going to talk about the relationship with their husband or their wife or whatever the case may be.

00:58:51.860 So those are also things that we look at, but those are the big ones.

00:58:55.980 Are they leaving early, coming in late?

00:58:58.660 Do we know of any strain?

00:58:59.780 Are they asking weird questions?

00:59:02.300 Are they asking questions that are inappropriate?

00:59:04.900 That's something else.

00:59:05.760 I mean, why would this officer be asking about this case?

00:59:11.480 It's nothing to do with him or where he is or what he's supposed to be dealing with.

00:59:16.580 Why is he asking these questions?

00:59:18.460 So it's things like that.

00:59:19.720 And 99 times out of 100, there is a perfectly good, legitimate answer to that question.

00:59:25.040 It's, well, he's put in for a transfer to go work in this division.

00:59:29.300 They told him they need to talk to the guys that are doing it.

00:59:31.620 So, again, perfectly legitimate answer.

00:59:34.540 It's that one out of 100 that causes problems.

00:59:37.940 It sounds like basically you're looking for the same qualities and characteristics or circumstances that you're looking at in a potential asset.

00:59:45.740 Yeah, pretty much.

00:59:47.060 Yeah.

00:59:47.780 Interesting.

00:59:48.980 Well, like what an interesting line of work.

00:59:51.400 It's hard for most people to fathom, but it is interesting as we have this conversation at how that is applicable even to somebody like me that has employees.

01:00:01.480 Now, I'm not overly concerned with being taken advantage of financially necessarily.

01:00:08.060 I have checks and balances in place, but also there are things that I want to be aware of in my professional and personal relationships that I might just be able to help somebody with.

01:00:17.720 You know, if one of my kids is acting strange, I should be aware of that so I can confront it.

01:00:22.900 Or if one of my employees is having a hard time, it would be good for me to know so I can help that person.

01:00:29.980 There's two things.

01:00:32.060 First, when I retired and I told my sister what I retired from, her immediate response was, you mean like Jason Bourne?

01:00:42.760 Yes.

01:00:43.740 Just like that.

01:00:44.680 In training, he teaches us to ride motorcycles across rooftops.

01:00:47.560 No, nothing like that whatsoever.

01:00:51.300 Yeah, that was pretty funny.

01:00:54.740 But we have to learn how to pay attention to people.

01:00:59.300 And there's this thing called management by walking around.

01:01:02.180 That became a famous term back when I was in college, so 40, 50 years ago.

01:01:07.600 So as a supervisor, as an employer, I'm hoping that you don't spend all your time in the office with the door closed.

01:01:15.800 Because that's just not going to tell you what you need to tell yourself.

01:01:19.280 And, you know, it goes back to the open door policy.

01:01:21.300 And when I was a manager and a group chief, yeah, I had a door that closed, but it was open all the time.

01:01:29.460 If it was closed, there was a reason for it.

01:01:31.560 And at least twice a day, usually more like five or six times a day, I just take off, walk around, say, hey, how you doing?

01:01:39.340 Because I had, I don't remember, I had about 50 people working for me in that office.

01:01:44.300 So I just walk around and say, how you doing?

01:01:47.100 What's going on?

01:01:48.180 And most of the time, you know, I get grunts and responses because people are busy or whatever.

01:01:54.380 But it's being accessible, which is something that you as an employer, as a supervisor, need to be.

01:02:02.060 The employee needs to know that if their son or daughter is sick, they can come in, close the door and say, chief, my daughter's real.

01:02:10.520 I had my daughter needed, what she had?

01:02:12.500 She had most of the large lobe of her liver removed because she had liver cancer.

01:02:18.640 She had a single tumor.

01:02:19.840 Praise God.

01:02:20.560 She survived and she's fine.

01:02:23.160 But imagine going to your boss and saying, yeah, my daughter's in Johns Hopkins Hospital and she's having surgery tomorrow.

01:02:31.280 We suppose my boss's comment, response was, well, what the heck are you doing here?

01:02:37.220 Get out of here.

01:02:38.260 We don't want to see you for at least two weeks.

01:02:40.620 Go, go.

01:02:41.560 He didn't get out a checklist and say, do you have sick leave?

01:02:44.900 He didn't care.

01:02:46.220 Right.

01:02:46.900 Yeah.

01:02:47.380 Get out of here.

01:02:48.380 Go take care of your family.

01:02:50.580 And obviously, I still remember that to this day, and that's been over two decades.

01:02:54.780 But it's that kind of support when personal issues come up that breed loyalty.

01:03:02.000 And again, I knew this boss.

01:03:03.380 I had worked for him for a while in a couple of different capacities.

01:03:06.740 And so when he heard that, it's like, what are you doing here, Jeff?

01:03:09.680 Go.

01:03:10.620 And that gave me free reign or gave me license to take what I needed to take care of my family.

01:03:17.460 The flip side of that is, it gave my boss license to say, you're good.

01:03:22.640 Family's good.

01:03:23.520 Everybody's happy.

01:03:24.520 Glad to hear it.

01:03:25.440 Come on and work this weekend.

01:03:26.840 Okay.

01:03:27.240 Now get back to work.

01:03:28.460 Yeah.

01:03:28.780 It's the other side of the coin.

01:03:30.320 He wants loyalty.

01:03:31.620 He got loyalty out of me.

01:03:32.800 I can absolutely guarantee that.

01:03:35.340 I bet.

01:03:36.060 I bet.

01:03:36.960 Well, Jeffrey, I appreciate you taking some time to talk with us today.

01:03:39.700 You've got a fascinating career.

01:03:41.340 I'm always interested in these unique angles and perspectives and things that we can learn.

01:03:45.280 And how do we connect more with you?

01:03:47.480 I know you are in the process of, I don't know how far in the process you are of brainstorming

01:03:52.320 or you've been writing your book, but how do guys, oh, you have it right there.

01:03:57.020 So it's Humant for Humanity.

01:03:59.260 And Humant is what I collected.

01:04:01.140 I collected human intelligence because you have SIGINT, which is signals intelligence,

01:04:06.160 OSINT, which is open source intelligence.

01:04:08.400 I collected Humant.

01:04:09.560 And so Humant for Humanity talks almost nothing about what I did for the agency.

01:04:15.740 But what it talks about is what are some of the different places I've been to?

01:04:19.580 I started my adult life as a Peace Corps volunteer in North Africa.

01:04:23.220 So that's where I learned Arabic.

01:04:24.620 And then I didn't want to go back to Ohio.

01:04:26.300 So I went to Central Africa and learned French.

01:04:29.820 And then I finished up my degrees and I went other places.

01:04:32.380 And I've been blessed and I do treat it as a blessing by being able to see the world at

01:04:39.220 a level that most people have not.

01:04:41.260 Now, I haven't seen everything.

01:04:42.300 I don't have all the answers.

01:04:43.080 That's not what I'm trying to say.

01:04:44.300 But I've seen bits and pieces of the world that most people have not.

01:04:49.340 My wife, now my ex-wife, has experienced things in places of the world that most people

01:04:54.500 never have.

01:04:56.240 I'll give you a quick example.

01:04:57.680 So we were in New Delhi and we'd been there about nine months.

01:05:01.880 Her parents sent a Christmas package.

01:05:04.180 And of course, we get the little notice in the mail that says, come pick up your package.

01:05:08.720 And this is a fascinating to us because in Delhi, they carry refrigerators on mopeds.

01:05:14.700 And you're telling me that the post office can't.

01:05:17.080 What did they send us?

01:05:18.200 A container?

01:05:19.920 So she goes down to the post office with her little slip and of course her passport and

01:05:26.240 goes in and shows it to them.

01:05:27.500 And they take one look at it and go, that's not your name.

01:05:31.220 My in-laws had addressed it to our youngest daughter who was 13 months old at the time.

01:05:37.560 And so the guy's like, that's not your name.

01:05:39.840 So that passport isn't going to do you any good.

01:05:42.240 They wouldn't give it to her.

01:05:43.600 She had to go back home, collect my 13-month-old daughter.

01:05:47.880 And you know how happy 13-month-old daughters can be.

01:05:50.660 Go down to the post office and stand in a line, which means a crowd again.

01:05:54.620 And with holding on to the daughter, while she's not very happy being held on to, gets

01:06:00.420 up there, holds the passport up, holds our daughter up.

01:06:04.400 And the guy goes, okay.

01:06:05.760 So they bring out the box.

01:06:06.960 They give her the box.

01:06:08.320 She signs whatever.

01:06:10.180 Takes the box, comes home, opens it up.

01:06:12.940 The box is empty, except for one piece of wrapping paper.

01:06:17.540 They'd stolen everything out of it.

01:06:19.540 Oh, no.

01:06:20.200 My ex-wife and my book is actually dedicated to my ex-wife because of all the stuff she

01:06:26.860 went through so I could play at the job I played at.

01:06:31.400 And, you know, it's just things like that that most people can't even fathom.

01:06:36.580 In India, again, I hate to pick on India because it's a lovely country.

01:06:39.800 But if you put a letter with a stamp on it into a post office box, by the time that gets

01:06:46.240 to the post office, they're going to take that stamp off, throw the letter away, and

01:06:49.800 resell the stamp.

01:06:51.780 So these are just things that you have to learn.

01:06:54.840 Again, I'm not being critical.

01:06:56.120 That's just reality.

01:06:57.080 We saw it happen.

01:06:57.960 And every country has this downside, U.S. included.

01:07:00.340 I mean, we're far from perfect.

01:07:02.060 So what I'm trying to do is give people a feel for the humanity that we live in and that

01:07:09.240 we see.

01:07:09.940 And we've got some fascinating places out there.

01:07:12.540 Did you ever read Sinbad the Sailor?

01:07:15.400 No.

01:07:16.660 You should.

01:07:17.800 Sinbad the Sailor is the story of the 1001 Arabian Nights.

01:07:22.300 He sailed from Oman.

01:07:24.120 And Oman is a fascinating country, a lovely country.

01:07:28.360 It's right on the Saudi Peninsula.

01:07:30.100 It's got an old history.

01:07:31.120 The people are wonderful and friendly, et cetera, et cetera.

01:07:34.880 So that's what I try and address in this book is give people a taste and a flavor for some

01:07:40.100 of the places in the world.

01:07:41.500 Well, we'll sync it all up so guys know where to go because there is a lot.

01:07:44.140 I've traveled abroad just a very little bit over the past couple of years, which is relatively

01:07:48.800 new for me.

01:07:49.400 And I can tell you some of the experiences and cultures that I've seen is absolutely incredible.

01:07:54.080 So I would encourage a lot more guys to do that.

01:07:56.580 Jeffrey, thanks again for joining me.

01:07:57.740 I appreciate you taking some time today.

01:07:59.500 It's my very great pleasure.

01:08:00.780 Thank you very much for the opportunity.

01:08:04.260 There you go, guys.

01:08:05.040 My conversation with Jeffrey Sano.

01:08:06.520 I hope you enjoyed it.

01:08:07.380 It was really insightful, especially as he was talking about what they look for in assets

01:08:11.960 and how they eventually get these individuals to come over to our side for security secrets

01:08:20.760 and keeping the world safe.

01:08:22.680 But I think there's a lot of opportunity to glean information and know-how from people

01:08:27.940 who understand the world of influence and deception and communication.

01:08:32.480 So I hope you're pulling something away from this so that you can implement not the deception

01:08:37.140 part so much in your life, but at least know what to look for and what are some of the

01:08:43.000 mechanisms for building influence in your life.

01:08:45.600 So go connect with Jeffrey Sano.

01:08:46.960 Also, make sure you check out Montana Knife Company and use the code ORDER OF MAN.

01:08:52.740 And the last thing, The Men's Forge coming up.

01:08:54.820 We still have a couple of tickets.

01:08:56.460 If you go to themensforge.com, you can get your ticket there.

01:09:00.560 All right, guys.

01:09:01.500 You've got your marching orders.

01:09:02.760 We'll be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

01:09:04.780 Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

01:09:08.440 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:09:14.800 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

01:09:18.840 we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - March 25, 2025

JEFFREY SANOW ｜ What a CIA Officer Can Teach Us about Communication, Influence, and Deception

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