Order of Man - JOCKO WILLINK ｜ Leading in Challenging and Uncertain Times

00:00:00.000 It's easy to lead in comfortable times. In fact, I'm not even sure we would call that

00:00:04.740 leadership. It's the times that are challenging that your true measurement as a leader comes

00:00:09.200 into question. And regardless of how you feel about the political landscape, COVID-19, the

00:00:16.000 civil unrest, everything that's going on in society today, I think we'd all agree that

00:00:20.540 these are uncertain and challenging times. Now, today I'm joined by my friend and four-time

00:00:26.380 guest, Jocko Willink, to talk about how to pivot effectively, overcoming the resistance

00:00:32.360 to change in yourself and others, the differences between being reactive and proactive, how to

00:00:38.720 take and inspire initiative, the dichotomy of caring for other people. And of course we

00:00:44.660 get into so much more.

00:00:45.860 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly chart

00:00:50.560 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you

00:00:56.140 are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This

00:01:02.420 is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said

00:01:07.480 and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:10.620 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder

00:01:15.180 of the Order of Man movement. Guys, we are on a roll, and I want to just tell you thank

00:01:19.840 you. This wouldn't happen without you. And that's what this podcast and this movement are

00:01:25.080 all about. It's about giving you what you need to become a better, more capable, more

00:01:29.300 effective, profitable, profitable. I can say that a productive man. And so we're giving

00:01:35.160 you the conversations, the tools, the resources, the guidance, the direction. And of course

00:01:38.840 this podcast today is no exception with a man who is uniquely qualified to impart some wisdom

00:01:45.020 upon us. I'm going to get into that introduction in just a minute with Jocko. But for now, I do

00:01:50.600 want to introduce you to my friends and Jocko's company along with Pete Roberts. And that company

00:01:57.860 is called Origin Maine. Now you guys have heard me talk about them for probably a year, maybe

00:02:03.940 over a year at this point. And in light of the conversation I'm having with Jocko today,

00:02:09.700 one of the owners of Origin, I figured I would talk about their joint warfare, their mulch,

00:02:15.320 their discipline, basically their supplemental lineup. That's going to help you maintain your

00:02:20.320 body and get strong and supplement everything that you might need to make yourself more capable,

00:02:26.260 physically capable and strong. And yeah, check it out at Origin Maine. I use specifically their

00:02:32.360 discipline, which is their pre-workout, their mulch, which is their protein supplement. And then

00:02:37.220 also the joint warfare, which I mentioned quite often as I continued down my jujitsu path and my

00:02:43.500 joints are hurting, my fingers hurt and they get stiff. And this is a great way for me to recover.

00:02:47.800 So if you're interested in some supplements and the lineup with Jocko, then check it out at

00:02:52.420 Origin Maine is in the state, main origin, main.com and make sure you use the code order. I mean,

00:02:58.400 quite frankly, supplements can tend to get a little bit more expensive. So if you use the code order,

00:03:03.140 O-R-D-E-R at checkout, you're going to get a discount on your purchases. All right, again,

00:03:09.500 origin, main.com use the code order guys for now, let me get into my introduction to Jocko.

00:03:15.440 So again, he's been on the podcast. This is his fourth time. He's a former Navy SEAL commander.

00:03:21.100 He's the New York times bestselling author of multiple books, including extreme ownership

00:03:26.580 and the dichotomy of leadership. He's the founder of echelon front. His name of course is Jocko

00:03:31.120 Willink. I can honestly say, I think you guys would attest that after having multiple conversations

00:03:36.040 with and getting to know Jocko on a personal and professional level, that there really isn't a

00:03:41.660 single person more qualified to talk about leadership than, than him. And these are certainly

00:03:47.020 times that, that call for leadership. As you're all aware, Jocko is the founder of the leadership

00:03:51.420 organization echelon front. He's written multiple New York times, bestselling books. And in case you've

00:03:57.120 been living under a rock, he's the host of the extremely popular podcast, Jocko podcast.

00:04:02.700 Our conversations guys get better each time. And of course this one is no exception.

00:04:07.080 Good to see you, man. Everything going good?

00:04:11.060 Yeah. Yeah.

00:04:12.940 A little bit has changed over the past, well, it's been about 10 or 11 months since we did

00:04:17.980 a podcast last, but a little bit has changed over that, over that time, I would say. What

00:04:21.840 do you think?

00:04:23.320 Yeah, definitely.

00:04:25.500 How's, how's the business been for you? I mean, what I wanted to really address and talk

00:04:29.920 with you about today is like pivoting. Cause I know a lot of guys are dealing with pivoting

00:04:33.060 and changing and there's a lot of uncertainty and variables. So I'm really curious to see

00:04:37.860 how you guys at echelon front have pivoted, because I think that'll help give some insight

00:04:42.720 into how other guys might be able to pivot in their own lives.

00:04:46.560 Yeah. So, um, I think we had 37 events and by events, I mean, you know, us meeting with

00:04:54.100 clients, we, we, we have a leadership consulting business. We took, we go and teach companies

00:04:58.740 leadership. We had a 99.9% of the work that we did is, or was live. Meaning I get in on

00:05:08.980 an airplane. I fly to New York. I fly to Chicago. I fly to San Francisco. I go into buildings.

00:05:14.360 I meet with leaders. I talk to them about leadership and that's what everyone on the

00:05:18.260 echelon front team is doing. We're doing it all the time. You know, we're, we're doing,

00:05:22.640 you know, whatever a hundred events a month, a hundred of these evolutions a month. So whenever

00:05:31.020 it hit, I forget the date, um, in four days we canceled or in four days, clients canceled 37,

00:05:41.200 I think it was 37 events of us going lofty places. And I just, you know, okay. And we got on a call

00:05:49.260 with the team and I said, Hey everybody, here's what's going on. We can't travel. And we could

00:05:55.220 hold our breath until this is over. We've got echelon fronts made some good money. We're smart

00:06:02.900 how we spend it. We've got a lot of money in the bank. And, um, I said, we could just go on a breath

00:06:09.060 hold until we get through this or we can go on the attack and we can start making things happen.

00:06:15.900 And that's exactly what we did. We immediately re-engaged. We started doing everything over

00:06:21.040 the internet. We double or tripled down on our online training platform EF online. Uh, we rebooted

00:06:29.520 that entire system and we, we just launched and came out of the gate and started, started going

00:06:36.100 after it. And it's been, it's been awesome. It's been great. There's, there's actually advantages

00:06:41.700 to, there's actually extensive advantages to this new world. One of them, one of them being,

00:06:49.940 I've been, this is the most time, most consecutive nights I've ever spent with my wife. So we've been

00:06:56.500 married for 23 years. This is the most consecutive nights I've ever spent with my wife. And, and that's

00:07:04.260 by a long shot now. Right. Right. So yeah. So that's been awesome. But also just from a client

00:07:10.180 perspective, you know, someone's paying me a lot of money to, to get in a plane, fly to New York,

00:07:18.060 spend the night there, wake up, meet with them, meet with their team, spend some time with them,

00:07:24.160 but then get in the plane and fly back. So instead of, they're basically paying me a lot of money to

00:07:29.700 travel. Right. And now instead of just paying me to travel, they're still paying me the same money,

00:07:35.260 but now I can say, yeah, I'll do it. I'll do two hours with you this way day, two hours this day,

00:07:40.640 and two hours that day. And all of a sudden they're getting four, three, four, five times the amount of

00:07:46.760 time with me for the same price point. And, and I actually am, you know, pretty close to the same

00:07:52.500 amount of time that I have to invest in traveling all over the place. So it's, it's, and then on top of

00:07:58.360 that, you know, if I'm talking to 200 people in a, in a classroom or in a, in a lecture hall,

00:08:06.500 well, then those 200 people, they're, they're what, 23, 20 feet, 40 feet, a hundred feet away

00:08:14.160 from me. They can't see me, you know, they have bad vision, whatever, but on a zoom call, I'm, I'm,

00:08:20.200 I'm eight inches from you, you know, I'm eight inches from you. And so people are seeing me and

00:08:25.520 then they can ask questions and the questions pop up in the chat room and everyone gets to express

00:08:29.920 their opinion. And so there are some serious advantages to how we're doing this and coming

00:08:35.500 out of this, we will end up with a hybrid model where we will be doing a lot of our training online

00:08:41.360 because not because it's easier, but because it's more effective, more cost efficient, and gives a

00:08:46.620 better service to the client. So, I mean, will we still do live things? Yes, we will. You know,

00:08:52.140 as I explained to the echelon front team, I said, just because I listened to, you know, music on MP3

00:08:58.320 doesn't mean I'm not going to a live concert when, you know, when a band comes to town, I can still,

00:09:04.900 you know, there's still a, a reason for that. There's still a live component. And so we will

00:09:10.560 certainly still do this stuff live, but we also will be doing a lot of this stuff virtually because

00:09:17.680 it is an effective training tool. You know, I think a lot of these things to give you another

00:09:22.580 tool in the tool belt, right? And sometimes your hand is forced or in a lot of cases, you don't

00:09:27.200 even know what's available until your back's against the wall. And you're like, Oh shit,

00:09:30.360 I gotta, I gotta pivot here. Like I gotta do something. What are we going to do? And all of a

00:09:34.360 sudden you start seeing these paths and these outlets that it's not that they weren't there.

00:09:39.360 It's just that you didn't see them before because your back wasn't against the wall.

00:09:42.860 And I think what a lot of guys do when they get in these difficult situations is they focus on all

00:09:47.880 of the negative, like, Oh, this isn't going to happen. And this is going to change. And this is

00:09:51.120 going to suck. And this is just going to take my time. And what I'm hearing you say is no, wait,

00:09:56.180 there's, there's actually some, some positive benefits and, and you specifically individually

00:10:03.060 will be better served. Your clients will be better served. Your team will be better served

00:10:07.840 because of everything else that's going on. And people tend to look at that in a negative way.

00:10:11.780 Yeah. And the other nice thing about it, it has forced people to jump over the hurdle of online

00:10:19.480 video teleconferencing. So for instance, I had Easter dinner with my mom and dad and my family,

00:10:28.680 even though my, my parents were in Montana because we did it via zoom because now everybody is doing

00:10:35.140 all these meetings on zoom. So whereas before, if I was to say to a client in New York, Hey, how about

00:10:41.620 we do a zoom meeting? They'd kind of, Oh, well, I don't know. You know, what is that? How does it

00:10:45.800 work? Is it really effective? You know, now everyone's doing it. And so people are like, Hey,

00:10:50.740 don't even come out here. Let's do a zoom meeting. They know it's, they know the power is there.

00:10:55.160 So it's, it's been educational to the entire world in, in a very short period of time,

00:11:03.040 the whole world has been educated in the power and the effectiveness of these tools. So yeah,

00:11:09.340 it's, it's awesome. And you can definitely look at it in a negative way, or you can look at it and

00:11:13.280 say, good, let's rock and roll. Why do you think people resist the change? Cause I know they do.

00:11:17.980 Like I've been there, I've been stubborn or I've, you know, look at change. You've got to invest some

00:11:23.140 time and some resources and energy into pivoting and changing. Is it more than that? Or is it simply

00:11:28.160 just, I don't know, laziness? What is it? It's path to least resistance. I'm just going to keep

00:11:33.180 doing what I'm doing until, I mean, no one likes change. We have to overcome change all the time.

00:11:38.280 Well, I'm, I'm speaking from a leadership perspective, working with companies at echelon

00:11:41.620 front, but they go through situations where they have to change and, and they don't, they need to

00:11:46.820 lead through change. And so, yeah, it's hard to lead through change because human nature is, I just

00:11:51.520 want to stay the same. I want to say status quo. I want to keep on the same course I've always been on.

00:11:56.740 One of the things that I appreciate about what you do. And then of course, having a friendship

00:12:02.340 with your business partner, who's literally right down the road from me at this point,

00:12:06.400 Pete is you guys aren't waiting for things to happen to you, right? There's like reaction,

00:12:13.420 which is what a lot of people are in right now, reaction mode, or you're in responsive mode. I don't

00:12:18.800 know if that's necessarily the right term, but where it's like, all right, let's get out ahead of this

00:12:23.760 thing. Instead of waiting back and thinking, okay, you know, this happened. So I got to pivot. It's

00:12:27.740 like, what can we do to stay out ahead of it? Uh, and, and I think that's one thing both you guys do

00:12:33.700 extremely, extremely well, especially having a personal interaction with Pete almost on a daily

00:12:38.980 basis. Yeah. I mean, the, you, you talked about being reactive. The opposite of reactive is proactive,

00:12:44.860 right? So there's some interesting terms, you know, what we always say and what I've written about

00:12:50.320 is default aggressive, meaning my default mode is going to be to get aggressive and make things

00:12:54.440 happen. The Marine Corps, I just talked about this on my podcast, the Marine Corps released a new,

00:12:59.480 uh, a new document, a new field manual called learning. And one of the things that they say that they

00:13:07.560 are trying to teach Marines is a bias for action, which is the same thing as being proactive or default

00:13:13.420 aggressive. A bias for action means I'm leaning towards taking action. Default aggressive means

00:13:19.640 I'm leaning towards taking action. I I'm not necessarily going to do it. I mean, you can

00:13:24.920 override your default mode, right? If you've got your default mode, default mode on your computer and

00:13:30.580 you want to override it, you do you sometimes you don't want to go the default mode. And sometimes

00:13:35.700 it's not the best thing to take action, but most likely it is the majority of the time it's better

00:13:43.260 to take action. And the more you sit around and wait for things to unfold, the more reactive you

00:13:48.780 become, the more problems you're going to have. Yeah. And I think when we get into reactive

00:13:53.860 situations, whether it's, Hey, I lost my job or COVID-19 has got me down or my wife's considering

00:13:59.800 leaving. That's when we tend to get overly emotional. And I, and I say overly emotional

00:14:07.000 because I don't think emotions are bad. I think they're there as a metric and indicator. You ought

00:14:11.000 to take them into consideration. Uh, but it's when we rely solely upon emotion that we end up making

00:14:17.620 decisions that aren't in our best interest because we're not taking other factors into consideration as

00:14:23.400 we press forward. Yes. It is not a good idea to make emotional decisions, but your emotions in

00:14:30.820 check, calm down, take a step back, breathe, be logical. Don't make emotional decisions. We don't

00:14:36.740 make good emotions when we're emotional. We, we, we don't make good decisions when we're emotional.

00:14:41.300 You know, the other thing you talked about with, uh, the Marine Corps, and I haven't seen this,

00:14:45.400 their new manual manual called learning. You said it was, is that right? Uh, is there requires a

00:14:51.700 certain element of, and I can't remember exactly where this falls into your, what you could talk

00:14:57.200 about, but your decentralized command, maybe it's your four laws of combat. I don't know exactly

00:15:01.320 again where it falls into, but your decentralized command. Cause I think what a lot of men are looking

00:15:06.400 for is to be led and unfortunately be told what to do. And if, and if you buy into that, like waiting

00:15:13.660 for somebody to give you permission and not having some element of decentralized command, then your

00:15:19.620 default mode might be passive waiting for Jocko or waiting for your boss or waiting for somebody

00:15:24.700 to give you a command before you start taking action. Yeah. It's, it's just initiative and

00:15:30.120 initiative is a key part of decentralized command. Yes. Decentralized command is the fourth law of

00:15:33.840 combat. It's really of the four. It's the most powerful. It doesn't fall in the line unless you

00:15:39.740 have the other three, you know, dialed in, but that what you're talking about is initiative and you

00:15:45.700 are correct. There are some people that have been trained, conditioned, or they have a natural

00:15:52.340 instinct that lends them towards, I'm going to wait to be told what to do. There's also situations

00:15:59.520 that unfold that create that attitude with people. They get overwhelmed. They're not sure what's

00:16:05.280 happening. You know, you can walk into a bad situation and everyone can kind of be shocked.

00:16:10.700 And if you say, Hey, you two get over on that wall, you two hold security over there. You three

00:16:17.740 start handling these prisoners. Everyone's going to do it. And, and these could be people that have

00:16:21.920 a lot of initiative normally, but they get overwhelmed. So we got to train people so that

00:16:28.320 they have initiative so that their instinct is to take action. That's why we talk about it all the

00:16:33.160 time. That's why the Marine Corps put it in that document is, is, and that's the thing that you are

00:16:39.440 wanting for subordinate members of your team, for superior members of your team, for your peers.

00:16:45.900 You want everyone saying, okay, what can I do? How can I take action? How can we move forward?

00:16:50.220 What the trap that I fall into, especially as a father, I think about it in my organization too,

00:16:55.540 but as a father, I noticed that I get really good at like barking commands, like do this, do this,

00:17:01.180 do it this way, do it that way. And what I have failed in the past to realize is that although I

00:17:07.040 might get some compliance by barking those commands, I'm missing an opportunity to let my

00:17:14.920 kids flounder through it a little bit, but also figure it out on their own and let them exhibit

00:17:20.880 and develop some leadership characteristics because they're not worried about dad barking orders at

00:17:25.520 them. Does that make sense?

00:17:26.560 Well, it absolutely makes sense. And you're just hitting the kind of tip of the iceberg when it

00:17:31.680 comes to barking orders. When you bark orders, you bark orders at your kid or your employee or

00:17:36.420 whoever, does that improve your relationship with them or, or does it deteriorate the relationship?

00:17:43.720 It deteriorates. I think that, I think the trap that we fall into those, we think that,

00:17:48.120 oh, because they did it, it worked, but it doesn't mean that actually worked in the long haul.

00:17:54.540 Yeah. It's a short-term solution. And the long-term outcome is you have people that don't like you,

00:18:00.120 don't respect you, don't trust you. And they, they're looking for the first opportunity to

00:18:05.480 rebel against you or, you know, sabotage what you're doing. So barking orders is never good.

00:18:14.780 Although as you heard me say earlier, there are scenarios that unfold sometimes where people

00:18:22.220 broadly are overwhelmed. And what you need to do is step up and make things happen. And yes,

00:18:27.640 that might include barking some orders to get things to happen immediately in a dynamic situation.

00:18:33.000 And, you know, I talked about this in leadership strategy and tactics,

00:18:36.240 when to step up and lead and when to step up and lead as a leader is something that's,

00:18:42.140 people don't pay attention to it, but you want to pay attention to it because

00:18:45.380 if you come home and the, you know, everyone in your family is doing what they're supposed to be

00:18:50.980 doing and everyone's, you know, dinner's getting made and, you know, the kids' rooms are clean and,

00:18:56.860 you know, the yard work is done and, and things are going the way they're supposed to be going.

00:19:00.940 Well, and then you, you come in there and start to impose on that situation. That's not good.

00:19:07.360 There's no reason for you to step up and lead. The team is handling it. So oftentimes we try and,

00:19:14.840 we try and impose our leadership when it's not necessary. And so you have to learn to pay

00:19:20.120 attention and look for when there's an actual leadership vacuum, where there's no leadership

00:19:25.320 happening. And that's when you can step in and you can start making decisions and at least start

00:19:30.200 pointing in the right direction. You don't necessarily have to start barking orders again,

00:19:34.060 unless it's a dynamic emergency situation or a critical situation, then you might have to bark

00:19:39.440 a couple of orders. But other than that, much of the time, if you're doing a good job broadly as a

00:19:45.060 leader, your troops are going to lead themselves and you don't have to say a damn thing.

00:19:49.680 Yeah. I think, uh, I think the power in this comes when you don't unnecessarily use tools,

00:19:56.620 because if you continue to use the tool, the same tool over and over again, you diminish some of its

00:20:01.200 power. And if you're leading effectively in other areas of your life, when you actually bark orders,

00:20:06.760 I think people are going to say, Oh, like something's different. I better listen this time

00:20:11.520 because you've built up credibility and authority, authority and trust through your other actions

00:20:16.640 that when you do on the rare occasion have to bark some orders, people actually tell the line and

00:20:21.620 listen because of what you've done to build the authority and credibility.

00:20:25.100 Yeah. This is, uh, I, I often talk about leading with the minimum force required and that's what

00:20:31.460 you want to do. I also always say, the less you talk, the more people listen. And I give the example

00:20:36.740 that, you know, when I was a task unit commander and tasking a bruiser, I would rarely talk on the

00:20:42.820 radio because there's activities happening. But when I did talk on the radio, it was like instant

00:20:49.780 compliance from everybody because everybody knew that if I was talking, it needed to happen now.

00:20:55.100 So yes, this is, this is an accurate assessment.

00:20:59.100 I think you've also done just in hearing you say that and hadn't considered this before, you've

00:21:03.000 actually done this on social media pretty well also, uh, in that it doesn't seem like you feel

00:21:09.280 the need to like continue to post and post and post and post things that, you know, aren't relevant

00:21:14.200 or don't matter. And that way, when you actually post something, people are like, Oh, okay. I better

00:21:19.520 tune in. I better watch this Monday morning video that Jocko has because he's not posting every

00:21:23.520 two minutes. He's only posting when necessary, or he actually has something to share.

00:21:29.740 Yeah, I guess so. I, I, I, I'm not sure I'm the best person to talk about social media because I

00:21:34.520 don't think I really have the best, um, you know, I don't focus on a lot. I kind of do what I do

00:21:42.460 and I'm not super, um, engaged in any way, you know, saying like, Oh, how does this post work or

00:21:51.860 whatever? I just kind of do what I do and it is what it is. So, I mean, let, let, let's take that

00:21:58.360 example. Cause you talk about it in a passive way. Like, yeah, I just do it when I feel like it or,

00:22:02.740 but at the same time, like you've got to have a reason for doing it, right? Like, like there is

00:22:07.900 some strategy behind it or some thought process about, Hey, let me post this Monday morning video.

00:22:15.700 I originally got on social media because Tim Ferriss said I should get on social media.

00:22:21.240 He seemed like he was a, and he, and he is a smart guy that was like, Hey, no, you, you should do this.

00:22:25.700 It's a good way to interact with people. You will have, you can learn things. You will get,

00:22:30.620 you'll get connected to people that you wouldn't otherwise be connected to. And you know, this was,

00:22:35.300 I had no, I was, you know, institutionalized my whole life in the military. So I have no

00:22:40.320 comprehension of the business world or anything else. And so here's this guy, Tim, who's,

00:22:45.960 you know, a successful guy, a smart guy. And he's telling me, Hey, you should go on Twitter.

00:22:51.680 And I said, okay. Okay. And so I went on Twitter and, and the very, you know, the, the day that I had

00:22:58.920 it, the day that I started it or whatever, I woke up in the morning and I just, you know, I was thinking

00:23:04.420 the day before I'm thinking, well, what would I even put on this? And I just woke up in the morning.

00:23:08.300 I took a picture of my watch. I posted that people like, Oh, that's cool. Whatever. And then I just

00:23:12.360 kept doing it. Um, and it's, it's, you know, people kind of respond, Hey, cool, right on. I'm up to

00:23:20.460 get after it, whatever. So that's how that started. There was no strategy behind that. Um, I don't even

00:23:28.280 really remember the Monday thing. And it's weird too. Cause I think Monday is a common,

00:23:35.900 like people do stuff Monday, Monday morning, start the week. Right. Yeah. And so I, I didn't really,

00:23:43.420 I wasn't even aware of that. Um, um, otherwise I probably wouldn't done it. Cause I would have

00:23:48.180 thought, Oh, people got this covered down, but I just started making some videos on, on Mondays

00:23:53.840 and yeah. So now I just do it, I guess, I guess more than anything else. And I guess the root of,

00:23:59.740 of my answer is that I am a creature of habits. I do what I do. I follow my specific patterns in life.

00:24:10.260 When I establish a new pattern, I stick with it. And that's probably as stupid as that is. That's

00:24:17.560 probably the reason why you see the consistent, normal, um, uh, sort of repetitive posts that I

00:24:27.100 post on social media. I mean, you say as stupid that as that is, but really it's only stupid if

00:24:33.360 it doesn't work. Right. And, and from my perspective, your habits have seemed to have worked to some

00:24:40.140 degree. Yeah. I mean, I think I'm always trying to improve my habits of course. Um, and, and when I

00:24:48.560 find habits that are negative, then I try and correct them and get them to be a, you know, pick up or add

00:24:55.420 a positive habit for sure. When you, uh, when, cause I know Tim Ferriss, uh, Rogan, those guys were

00:25:03.080 early influences you on you and starting the podcast, uh, was, what was your intention? What, you know,

00:25:10.040 they came to you and said, Hey, you should start a podcast. You should do this. What was your

00:25:13.860 intention behind? Yeah. I think that is something I would like to do. And then, and then launching

00:25:18.340 into that space. I, when I was a kid growing up, I listened to radio shows and I don't know if you

00:25:29.360 listen to any radio shows growing up, but I, I always had a, an ear for, and I enjoyed listening to

00:25:35.180 radio shows. I mean, this is in the, in the late seventies, early eighties when, or I'd say through

00:25:41.720 the eighties before I joined the Navy, you know, there was no internet, there was no, there was no

00:25:45.780 podcast, obviously there was, but there was radio shows where you could follow stories. You could

00:25:50.960 listen to stories. And I always had an ear for that. And so that's what, what, as soon as I started

00:25:56.440 listening to podcasts, that's what it reminded me of. And the other thing that was nice about it

00:26:01.920 from the get go was there was no time limit. There's no restrictions. You can do whatever

00:26:06.560 you want. It's pure freedom, to be honest with you. And so I like to do what I like to do.

00:26:13.100 And when, when I, as soon as, you know, I was talking about this with the echo the other day,

00:26:18.620 he wasn't really sure what the podcast was going to be like. He kind of had an idea,

00:26:23.020 but I knew from day one, what I was going to do. And, you know, like that's, that's what we've done

00:26:29.040 ever since, you know, answer questions and talk about things from history, talk about human nature

00:26:37.500 through the lens of leadership in very stressful situations, which usually means some time of war

00:26:44.580 or some sort of, you know, catastrophic human suffering. And that's what the podcast is.

00:26:53.680 So I, I just keep doing it. I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of books stacked up that

00:27:03.240 I need to do on the podcast. I've got hundreds and hundreds of people that I need to interview.

00:27:09.820 And it's, yeah, it's, it's just an exploration into things that I'm interested in more than anything

00:27:16.440 else. And I think that surprisingly there was people, other people that have similar interests

00:27:25.380 because, you know, the making a podcast, probably the worst intention you could go into a podcast

00:27:32.560 with is I'm going to talk about dark and horrible things for extended periods of time by myself in a

00:27:40.860 dark room. Yeah. That, that doesn't appeal to just about, you would think on the, you wouldn't think

00:27:45.720 right. Exactly. You wouldn't think that that would appeal to anybody. And yet everybody knows that the

00:27:51.900 world is a complicated and oftentimes very evil place and people want to understand those things.

00:27:57.840 And so that's what the podcast allows people to do is experience things that they

00:28:01.960 hopefully would not otherwise experience. Yeah. I think there's a lesson in there, you know,

00:28:09.840 you wanting to be able to explore some of these ideas and talk about some of these ideas without

00:28:14.320 any restraints and have the freedom and flexibility to do it in your way. But you also listen to people

00:28:20.560 who know it better than you, right? You listen to Ferris, who obviously is, is a monster in the game.

00:28:26.040 You listen to Rogan, who's a monster in the game. Like these are very reputable sources where you're

00:28:30.880 getting information from. It's funny. I had somebody, I don't know, comment on Instagram or Twitter,

00:28:36.240 wherever it was. And, and, and they were criticizing the idea that I had mentors.

00:28:42.380 And I thought, man, how ridiculous is that thought that there's somebody who actually

00:28:47.260 believes that it's weak to find somebody who knows more than you in an avenue, in an area that

00:28:52.980 you want to excel in. And then you solicit them, whether it's payment or just information, just for

00:28:57.980 advice. It's fascinating to me that there's people who think that seeking out a mentor and doing what

00:29:03.820 they say is weakness. Yeah, that's pretty, that's a pretty silly idea. Um, uh, yeah. And, and Tim

00:29:12.060 and Joe, I mean, they, they recommended I start my own podcast and Tim did it, you know, right after

00:29:17.840 we got done recording, I was the first interview I ever did in my life. And he, when he pressed stop,

00:29:22.020 he said, you should start your own podcast. And Joe said it during the middle of the podcast. And

00:29:25.760 when those two guys tell you to start a podcast, it's probably a good thing to listen to.

00:29:30.000 It's actually been pretty cool to watch you, watch you evolve. Cause I haven't disclosed this

00:29:36.080 to you, but the hardest interview I've ever done was the first interview I did with you

00:29:41.840 because not only was I nervous, cause I was fairly new in the game. I was nervous. I'd really

00:29:46.940 appreciated and respected what you brought to the table, but you were just getting started. So I

00:29:51.040 remember asking questions like, you know, how do you do X, Y, and Z? And your answer was, you just

00:29:55.940 do it. And in my mind, I'm like, do you care to elaborate? You're like, no, you just do it.

00:30:02.880 I'm like, how, how do I, how do I hold this conversation with this guy? I don't know how

00:30:06.640 to do this. But, uh, one of the things I've really appreciated about you and seeing over the

00:30:10.960 past four to five years is your evolution and the way that you've evolved, the way that you

00:30:16.080 communicate, the way that you share a message, inspire people. It's actually really cool to see

00:30:20.280 that happen, uh, in real time over the past five years. Hmm. Yeah. I've, I've gotten that feedback

00:30:26.880 a couple of times. Um, I know I did one pretty high level interview one time and someone else,

00:30:33.860 another friend of mine that's, uh, got also got interviewed by that same person, like a short

00:30:40.280 period after and contacted me and S and they said that this was that the person that interviewed them

00:30:46.160 said that I was the hardest interview they've ever done. So I don't know. I guess, uh, I apologize

00:30:52.060 for being hard to interview. No, I don't think you have to apologize. I think, I think you learn

00:30:56.940 from it, man. I think you grow from it. I think you, uh, you, and of course I do too, right? I'm

00:31:01.360 like, okay, I got to get better as an interviewer, right? Like these are things that I need to improve

00:31:05.040 upon as well. Um, yeah. Do, do you feel like, uh, you're, you're, let me back up and say it this way.

00:31:15.500 Do you take into consideration how other people perceive you? Because I know that there's a common

00:31:20.940 trend in society. We hear this all the time of like the zero Fs mentality and like, I don't care

00:31:26.720 what other people think. And yet from my perspective, I look at it as a leader, like

00:31:31.500 to some degree, I've got to care about what certain people think. You know, I care about what you think.

00:31:35.980 Cause I, I respect you. Uh, I care about what my wife, certainly what she thinks and what my

00:31:41.500 children think of me because I, I need to be aware of that in order for me to lead them more

00:31:46.020 effectively. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. I've talked about that before. And yes,

00:31:50.380 it's a dichotomy because as you said, you know, it's, you don't want to care about what people

00:31:55.660 think. And then you're scrambling around, afraid to do anything, or you don't stand up for what you

00:32:00.400 actually believe in. Cause you don't, you're afraid that people will think something less of you.

00:32:04.520 Uh, so you don't want to care what people think from that perspective, but the same way, the same,

00:32:11.600 the, the, I, it's not the same way. The opposite perspective is if you've got people that you

00:32:15.900 respect and you care about, then you should care about how they feel about you. And as a leader,

00:32:22.620 you know, that idea, the, which you can still, you can still find people saying this all the time

00:32:27.440 today, you know, as a leader, you're not looking to be liked. It doesn't matter if you're liked it just,

00:32:32.080 you know, the leaders aren't meant to be liked and like, no, no, actually not true. Um, I would

00:32:37.440 try, I would take, I would much rather have 10 people on my team that like me and respect me

00:32:43.920 than 10 people on my team that don't like me. They might respect me, but they don't like me.

00:32:48.560 Who's going to win? Are you kidding me? It's not even close. It's not even close. It's a, it's a,

00:32:53.380 it's a, it's a complete landslide victory for me and my team that we all like each other versus the

00:33:00.540 team that don't like each other. So yes, you have to pay attention and, and care about what people

00:33:06.280 think. And at the same time, the dichotomy is if you run your life based on what other people think,

00:33:12.840 you probably dig yourself a pretty deep hole pretty quick. Well, I think people like to set

00:33:17.220 up these, these false dichotomies, these black and white scenarios where it's like, well, you can

00:33:21.300 either have people like you or respect you. Like, nah, you, you, you can actually have both. Like it

00:33:27.260 isn't so black and white. There's some gray area there. There's some middle ground that you ought

00:33:31.120 to probably operate and work in. And that's going to help you get things done more effectively than

00:33:35.060 operating to the extremes where they either respect you, but don't like you. I don't even

00:33:39.780 know if that would work or, or the opposite of that. Yeah. That's the dichotomy of leadership.

00:33:46.060 And you gotta, you gotta stay somewhere in the middle, stay somewhere balanced a vast majority of

00:33:51.400 the time. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing that I've noticed about just popular culture,

00:33:56.640 even social media is there's not much more room for nuance. And that goes back to the conversation

00:34:01.020 we were having about podcasting earlier, the freedom, the flexibility, the, the, the, the

00:34:05.220 lack of time constraints is that we can talk about anything and everything without it being so black

00:34:12.520 and white. And we can get into the crevices and the nuances of some of these discussions and these

00:34:17.100 topics. And I think that's why this, this format, this medium of podcasting is so powerful.

00:34:22.460 Cool. Yeah. And I don't know if you've ever done, have you ever done any TV interviews?

00:34:28.500 Uh, no, never have. They, you don't really perceive this when you watch them.

00:34:35.580 And maybe even if you don't do any other kinds of interviews, you wouldn't really perceive it.

00:34:40.500 But when you do a television interview, it is, it is a micro second of thought that that TV interview

00:34:48.540 consists of. There's no time to assemble your thoughts. There's no time to actually think about

00:34:54.120 what you're going to say. There's no time to articulate your way around a point to describe

00:34:58.580 something in the most accurate possible way. None of that exists. You're on to spew out three or

00:35:05.120 four sentences. They're pretty much going to be pre-planned. And then the, the, the bit is over.

00:35:11.040 I mean, the bits are, they're like four minutes. They're four minutes. You get an introduction,

00:35:16.080 you get, you know, your biography, and then they ask you a question, you answer, they talk about it.

00:35:21.740 They ask you one more question, you answer, and then it's over. It's actually crazy. It's actually

00:35:26.520 crazy. And you know, um, I don't think I've, I haven't like, uh, fallen apart during one of those

00:35:33.560 interviews or anything, but it's, it's, it's just, they're just, they're just kind of not very cool.

00:35:42.000 And unfortunately, I think they cater to a short attention span kind of lowest common denominator

00:35:47.620 that you, they just want to, they figure, Hey, if, if we bring someone on this broadcast, that's

00:35:53.260 boring or not popular, or someone doesn't like, as long as we switch them out, there's like an

00:35:57.640 anticipation that some, someone else is coming and I'll just stick with it. And I think that's what,

00:36:03.060 that's what drives it. But it's very strange. It's a very strange medium. And it's a very shallow

00:36:08.340 medium. It's a very shallow medium. And so the, to have the ability to do, you know,

00:36:15.200 to do a format like this is it's amazing. And, you know, I would go, you know, I mean, I, you know,

00:36:22.940 my podcast, there's like millions of people listen to each episode. And so it's echoing me sitting in a

00:36:31.840 converted closet in my gym with a thousand dollars worth of gear. And I'll go out and do interviews

00:36:37.500 where there's an entire production crew and a team and a back room and all these things, stage lights.

00:36:43.720 And, and their, their viewership of a TV program will be 500,000 people. So the fact that anyone

00:36:51.780 can get there on these little platforms and yet they reach so many people, it's,

00:36:57.840 it's a pretty amazing time to be alive. It is amazing. We don't have quite the reach that you

00:37:03.260 do, but even seeing the downloads and the people that connect with us and, and people who reach out,

00:37:08.240 I'm like, man, I'm still blown away. I was, I was walking around in, in another town on vacation with

00:37:12.900 my family the other day and somebody walked up and stopped me and said, Hey man, I listened to your

00:37:17.760 show. And I'm like, my, my knee jerk reaction is why like, you listen to me, you know what I mean?

00:37:22.620 But he came up and introduced himself and said he was inspired by what we're doing. And like the

00:37:28.120 ability that we have to reach and connect with people, unlike every, ever before is just, it's

00:37:33.140 absolutely phenomenal. It's such a powerful medium. It's something that people I think are really,

00:37:38.040 really craving is these deep conversations. I want people to feel like they're in the,

00:37:43.540 like literally, and we, you and I have interviews where there are people literally in the room.

00:37:47.400 That's how I want people to feel like they're part of this conversation. I think it's a very

00:37:51.060 powerful medium for that. Yeah. And I bet even with whatever your, whatever, however many people

00:37:57.400 are listening to this, I bet you it's more than a lot of TV shows and news programs that are out there

00:38:02.120 and you know, it's just, it's just, it's a cool thing. Yeah. I also think it's actually part of this

00:38:09.260 solution to the problems that we find ourselves in society. You know, we, I think for the past 10

00:38:14.620 years or so, maybe slightly longer, we have been conditioned to look for quick snippets and quick

00:38:22.960 soundbites and 40 characters and four minute Fox news segments. And we've lost a lot of the nuance

00:38:31.100 and it's become so polarizing. And what I've realized is that as we have conversations like this,

00:38:37.020 I think this is the solution or at least part of the solution to the polarization that we see in

00:38:42.680 society. I don't think all of that many people are so far apart, but we've been polarized that way

00:38:48.200 through, through social media and through these quick soundbites. Do you agree with that?

00:38:53.240 Absolutely. And I've been saying that if you want to resolve a conflict with somebody,

00:38:58.440 you know, you got to talk to them. You got to hear what their side is. You got to listen. You got

00:39:01.640 to actually listen to see where they're right. And that's the, that's the biggest part is how much

00:39:05.900 ego plays into all these, all this polarization that we're dealing with. So much of it comes from

00:39:12.620 ego, because if you say something, well, I just think you're wrong. And I think I'm right. And

00:39:18.980 I don't listen to anything else that you say. So how can we connect? How can we make any progress?

00:39:22.940 How can we find any common ground? If I just think I'm smarter and better than you and you're just too

00:39:27.100 dumb to get it. Well, I'm never going to listen to you. So you have to put your ego in check and

00:39:32.620 actually listen to what other people have to say. And even if you don't agree with it, you have to

00:39:36.680 actually say to yourself, well, okay, why do they think that? Why, why do they think that? Why do they have

00:39:41.960 that idea in their head? If I don't, you know, if I don't listen to what you're saying,

00:39:47.940 then every thought that I have about you is basically invalid. Unless I listen to what you

00:39:54.440 say, I understand what your perspective is. I say, Oh, Ryan's been through this and Ryan experienced

00:40:00.580 that. And Ryan has this thought because of this situation. How can I even address you? How can I even

00:40:06.960 negate anything that you say if I'm not listening to what you said? And yet, you know, that's what

00:40:13.140 we do most of the time. We hear someone that's, you know, that we don't, that's on the other side

00:40:17.320 of the spectrum. We listen to two, two words come out of their mouth. We know where they're coming

00:40:21.520 from. We shut them out. They're wrong. They're stupid. They're idiots. And we don't listen to

00:40:25.200 another word. They say that's what America is doing right now. Yeah. It's I, I agree. I think

00:40:31.260 it's the, just the dehumanization of it. You know, like I, for example, I probably have neighbors who

00:40:36.780 I would disagree with on just about every front politically, but I have no idea because we don't

00:40:43.260 talk about that stuff. We talk about their kids and we have barbecues together. And my friend comes

00:40:47.780 over and helps me with a project because I need some help. And I might go over and lend a resource or

00:40:52.000 lend my hand because he needs some help. And it's, it's the humanity of it. You know, I see

00:40:57.040 somebody, a friend, for example, who, who has a child that goes through cancer, man, I don't care

00:41:02.580 what political affiliation it's about. I'm like, dude, this guy has a daughter that has cancer right

00:41:07.000 now. Like, what can I do to help? How can I help this individual? Like, forget about the politics,

00:41:12.360 all politics aside, like this is what needs to be addressed. And Twitter and Facebook and Instagram

00:41:17.020 do a phenomenal job at stripping away the humanity as, and look, I don't want to discount how

00:41:21.380 powerful they are. Cause I don't think you and I would be having this conversation if those

00:41:24.880 platforms weren't there. But I think we need to like disengage occasionally from the technological

00:41:31.600 world and just like, go have a barbecue with your neighbor or go to, go to jujitsu with your friend

00:41:36.620 or whatever, just get face to face, which is a little difficult amid COVID-19 restrictions, but

00:41:43.260 I think people can still get there.

00:41:45.400 Yeah, no doubt. You got to listen to what other people have to say and

00:41:49.980 don't wrap yourself around. So even what, even the things that you just talked about,

00:41:54.340 each one of those things, whether your neighbor needs help with something, whether you, you need

00:42:00.680 something from your neighbor, whether you're doing jujitsu, whether you're having a barbecue,

00:42:04.560 all those things are common ground. And so when you build up all this common ground, if you find out

00:42:09.200 that this guy doesn't believe some political belief that you believe, well, it's okay. Cause you've got

00:42:14.060 everything else in common. So it's not that big of a deal. But if you, if you come out of the gate

00:42:18.440 with what are your political beliefs and, and by the way, I think you're wrong. And therefore,

00:42:22.400 everything that you do is wrong. And therefore I don't, I'm not going to have a barbecue with you

00:42:25.500 cause I don't want you near my chicken. And that's that game over. We're not talking to you.

00:42:31.600 So what are your, uh, yeah. What are you, what are your thoughts on, uh, on politics in general,

00:42:37.960 as far as like, I know people have asked you and talked to you about getting into politics.

00:42:41.440 Like what, what's your take on that? As far as you getting involved, you not getting involved,

00:42:45.640 you and you getting involved at some point, where are you at with that?

00:42:51.280 You know, I don't want to be a politician. I just, I have no desire to do that job

00:42:58.480 just from the mechanics of the job. I don't want to do the job. I don't want to be sitting around

00:43:02.860 in an office. I don't want to be, you know, um, out shaking people's hands all day long. And,

00:43:07.840 and you know, I was thinking about this as, as you were telling me how hard it was to interview me

00:43:11.980 when you first met me. And it's like, I'm thinking to myself, Oh yeah, that's because I don't really

00:43:16.460 like to talk to people, which is a really strange thing for me to say since I literally talk to

00:43:20.800 people for a living, but I don't talk to people. I don't, it's not, you know, if I'm in, if I'm in a

00:43:27.620 room and there's a bunch of people in there, they're all talking. It's not, I don't feel the need to

00:43:31.540 step up and talk to people all the time. So I also don't feel that need from, you know,

00:43:36.520 like a political perspective of, Hey, I'm going to go out and meet people and constantly try and

00:43:41.920 win people support over all day long, shaking hands and kissing babies. That's just not really

00:43:47.840 my personality. So I hope I never have to do it. You know, the only thing that I think would ever

00:43:53.660 come into play, and this is like a straight doomsday scenario. Like if there was some kind of

00:43:58.220 just epic disaster that unfolded, I would probably not by choice, but through instinct and, and natural

00:44:08.780 reaction would move into a leadership position of trying to get a situation under control and moving

00:44:14.960 forward. But I mean, I'm talking like doomsday scenario, then it probably would just be what I

00:44:21.440 would do. Cause that's the way my mind works in situations like that. I really hope it doesn't come

00:44:26.780 to that. And there's people who've heard me say that before. And they're like, what about right now?

00:44:30.760 And I'm like, are you kidding me? We aren't even close. You got your iPhone, you know, you've, you,

00:44:36.280 you've got, um, the internet, we've got wifi, we got the, the things that people are complaining about

00:44:42.640 right now are not major, the kind of major issues that I'm talking about.

00:44:50.000 Man, I don't want to interrupt, but I do want to mention something that you're going to be,

00:44:53.340 want to want to be aware of. Uh, if you haven't already heard the free battle ready course is now

00:44:59.380 available and in it, I'm going to send you a series of emails over 30 days. They're all designed

00:45:04.460 to give you the tools and resources and information that you need to make the next 90 days, uh, the

00:45:09.980 most productive, profitable, and prosperous time in your life. Now I can say that with certainty

00:45:16.180 because thousands of men have gone through the program that I teach. Uh, they're making more money.

00:45:21.020 They're securing promotions. They're getting the girl, they're losing weight. They're getting

00:45:24.340 strong. They're connecting with their kids. They're finding meaning. And I guess like Pedro

00:45:29.560 would say, they're making all of their wildest dreams come true. Of course, I can't guarantee

00:45:34.160 that you guys, but I can guarantee that if you implement the exact strategies that I'll teach you,

00:45:40.280 you are going to accomplish more out of your life than you ever have in the past. So if you want

00:45:45.300 to learn more, you want to get signed up and you want to make your wildest dreams come true,

00:45:49.540 then head to order a man.com slash battle ready. Again, that's order a man.com slash battle ready.

00:45:55.540 You can do that after the podcast for now. I'll get back to it with Jocko.

00:46:00.940 Well, and this goes back to our earlier conversation is I think your level of reach is just as large as

00:46:07.100 if you were some sort of politician, like you, you, you have just as much influence,

00:46:11.500 if not more over the way people think and respond and react through your podcast and other platforms

00:46:16.460 than any other politician out there. I mean, I wouldn't say you're political necessarily,

00:46:21.400 but the reach is certainly there and you're influencing people's behaviors for the,

00:46:25.540 for the positive. You know, you're there.

00:46:28.660 Yeah. You know, I've, I've made some videos and I was just on Rogan and we obviously talked about

00:46:34.500 some of this kind of stuff and you know, the feedbacks generally positive, you know, um,

00:46:41.120 because I talk about stuff sort of from a emotionally detached perspective. Don't get

00:46:47.340 super hype about stuff. I understand that there's two sides to every story. And even when I don't

00:46:52.140 agree with the other side, I at least understand that they have a perspective that I might not

00:46:56.540 understand. So I have to say, okay, well, what is it that's, I don't just, I don't just, um,

00:47:03.220 cancel out anybody that doesn't align with what I'm thinking. In fact, I try and learn from them.

00:47:09.340 So I think when you combine those things together, it comes across as a reasonable human being, which is,

00:47:15.040 I think, rare in a lot of situations today, you know, people are more apt to just get crazy

00:47:21.800 about things. And I, I try not to do that. Why do you think people get that way? I mean,

00:47:27.840 obviously they're, they're emotional responses and reactions, but, but why, like, why do people get

00:47:33.800 there? Yeah. I mean, well, I think a lot of it does have to do with ego and, and insecurities,

00:47:40.900 you know, it's sort of like, you know, when someone's truly deeply insecure and then that makes

00:47:45.180 them hyper, you know, overconfident, egotistical, and you know, that it's rooted in security.

00:47:51.460 I think some of it has to do with that. I think people, um, you know, everything that you talked

00:47:56.820 about with the social media and you'll, you know, I talked about this with Rogan, when somebody posts

00:48:02.220 a video, every video that gets posted, you know, nine out of 10 of them are to trigger reactions.

00:48:08.200 And so when you go on social media and by the way, you, you are, your algorithm on social media

00:48:16.400 is an echo chamber. The algorithm isn't set up to make you see the other side's views. It's only

00:48:22.940 set up to make you see your own views. So when, when I look at, you know, my feed on social media,

00:48:30.480 it looks, the world looks one way. When I, if you go and look at some other person's feed on social

00:48:36.820 media, the world will look completely different. And so when you get caught up inside your own

00:48:42.960 social media echo chamber and every video you see reflects what your thoughts already are,

00:48:51.840 man, it's hard not to get spun up. The other thing is social media brings an immediacy

00:48:57.880 to everything that's happening in the world. And it's a, it's an immediacy that exponentially

00:49:07.140 increases the visibility and the threat of whatever it is that's unfolding. So, you know,

00:49:14.020 you can look at COVID-19 COVID-19. I know it's really bad. And if you watch the news or you watch

00:49:21.440 social media, you'll see all this mayhem. You read the headlines. It's mayhem. I'll tell you,

00:49:27.260 I mean, I live in San Diego, bro. It's not that big of a deal here. I know. I talked to Pete Pete's

00:49:34.640 like, yeah, it's not that big of a deal here. It's not. I get that it's a big deal in New York

00:49:40.000 City. I get that it's a big deal in some major metropolitan areas, but it's, we live in a massive

00:49:49.000 country. You know, there's 350 million people that live here. 350 million people. That's a lot of

00:49:56.700 people. You know, there's my house up in Montana. You go up there, you're flying over millions of

00:50:03.360 square miles of just country where there's no people. And yet if we have X amount of, you know,

00:50:13.320 sicknesses, and that's what you see on the news every day, you are going to think that that's

00:50:18.140 what's happening. And that's the most important thing in the world. And look, I'm not trying to

00:50:22.940 denigrate or dismiss the fact that some people in some families have been hit in a horrendous way

00:50:29.980 by this disease, especially people that have compromised immune systems or they're elderly.

00:50:37.080 I mean, it's awful. And if you live in a family like that and COVID comes into your family,

00:50:41.940 you could lose two, three, four, five family members. And that's awful. But if you live in

00:50:47.780 Southern California, like I do, and you, my, my parents and my in-laws don't even live anywhere

00:50:53.140 close to us. We have no friends over the age of, you know, 50, which is what I'm 48 and my kids are

00:51:00.160 all healthy kids. We're very blessed in that way. Well, then guess what? COVID doesn't have a huge

00:51:06.360 impact on my personal life on our business. It has an impact and we adapt to those, those situations.

00:51:12.980 But to answer your question, why do people become so emotional and polarized? It's because

00:51:20.820 of what they are eating. It's what they are eating and what they are eating is social media,

00:51:27.960 crazy headlines. The headlines are all made. What do I need to write in this headline to get you to

00:51:32.980 click on this headline? And, and by the way, when you click the headline, you're only going to read

00:51:37.120 the first paragraph anyways. So what does that mean? The headline that says Corona spikes all time high

00:51:43.960 and you click on it and you read the first paragraph that says more people have Corona today than they

00:51:50.100 ever have. And you're like, well, yeah, I guess what, you know, if you think through it, you say,

00:51:54.940 well, the disease is spreading. It's the virus. It's going to move throughout the population.

00:51:58.280 Makes sense.

00:51:59.200 Okay. I get it. That makes sense. But if you just see the headline, you think the world is coming to

00:52:03.940 an end. And that is why that is one of the reasons why people get super emotional and, and go crazy

00:52:11.240 about things.

00:52:12.800 Yeah. I've, I've even caught myself this morning. I was reading some headlines or something on Instagram.

00:52:16.900 Then you click on this and click on that. And before half an hour into the thing, you realize

00:52:20.440 you're like, what the hell am I doing here? You know, like I'm, I'm wasting all this time.

00:52:23.980 Like, how does this help me lead the people who are listening to my podcast? How does this help me

00:52:28.500 with the people who are banded with us in some way? How does this help me leave my family? And more

00:52:32.380 often than not, the solution or the answer to that question is it doesn't help in any way. In fact,

00:52:37.800 it undermines my ability to perform and to be effective the way I want to be effective

00:52:42.740 when I wake up first thing in the morning. Yeah. And you can read, you can read anything you,

00:52:50.060 any position you want to support for yourself or any, let me, let me rephrase that.

00:52:54.420 Anything that you want to believe you can find support for on the internet. So if you want to

00:52:59.180 believe that COVID is no threat and it's not that big of a deal, you can find that. And if you want

00:53:03.860 to believe that the world is going to come to an end because of COVID, you can find that too. You can,

00:53:07.860 you can support the absolute extremes on opposing sides of just about any argument there is.

00:53:17.800 That's not going to be good.

00:53:20.600 No, like you said, that's the, that's the echo chamber, right? Is like, Hey, I'm going to,

00:53:24.400 here's my thought. I'm rooted in this belief. I'm not going to change my perspective. And so I have

00:53:29.140 to find all the data that supports what I already believe. And what I find fascinating, look, I fall in

00:53:34.500 this trap. I'm not saying I don't, but what I find fascinating is I try and I've learned this over

00:53:40.000 having, you know, over, I don't know, close to 600 podcasts at this point and having conversations

00:53:45.220 with men like you and other people who have joined us is like, I just have to be open-minded. That's

00:53:50.700 it. Like, that's my job is to be open-minded and to be curious about what you have to say and how it

00:53:56.540 might benefit me, how it might impact me, how it might benefit the people who are listening in.

00:54:00.480 And that level of curiosity, I think has really served me well. And I think it would serve a lot

00:54:04.880 of other people well also because they aren't curious. They're just trying to like solidify what

00:54:09.800 they already believe. It's like, no, go into a conversation curious about why, even if you don't

00:54:14.900 agree with them, why that person thinks what they're thinking. And ultimately you may walk away with the

00:54:20.360 same perspective you had before, but at least you're considering something you haven't considered

00:54:25.040 before. And that's very, very powerful. That rounds you out. Yeah. I always talk about this

00:54:30.780 from a leadership perspective that if you work for me and you come to me with an idea,

00:54:36.680 my goal, when you start talking to me is to see that your idea is correct. And my idea is wrong.

00:54:43.260 Like if I, if I have a plan on how we're going to do something and you object to my plan,

00:54:46.560 when you object to my plan, my goal from that point forward is to say, why is,

00:54:51.420 why is his plan better than mine? That's what I want to figure out. Not, no, he's wrong. And my,

00:54:56.920 my, my plan is better than his. It's, it's why, why does he have that plan? Why is it better than

00:55:01.780 mine? How can we use his plan instead of my plan? That's what my goal is. So yes, if I go into it,

00:55:08.040 into a discussion with someone and I'm thinking, okay, well, I'm going to this, you have a certain

00:55:13.600 belief and I know what your belief is. And I enter the conversation saying, how can you be right? And I'd be

00:55:18.620 wrong. That's going to, that's going to allow me to open my mind up a lot more and understand the

00:55:23.120 situation a lot better. And maybe I don't change my mind completely, but at a minimum, maybe I can

00:55:30.060 understand someone else's perspective. And then I can start to address the root of their belief

00:55:35.780 instead of just attacking them, which is what most people end up doing nowadays.

00:55:40.900 That's actually, I've never heard that before. Like that's taking it not from, Hey, let me try to

00:55:45.380 understand this person to the extreme of, let me see if I can prove this person, right?

00:55:50.440 That's actually a really interesting perspective. I've never considered that before. And again,

00:55:55.160 that goes back to what you were saying earlier is ego, right? Like I got to be right. I got to be

00:55:59.880 right. No, you have to win. Like you have to make more money. You have to serve more people. You have

00:56:05.780 to lose more weight. You have to, whatever your goal is, that is the objective. And somebody else might

00:56:10.460 have that one little insight that you've never heard of. Like you just shared with me,

00:56:13.920 that might actually help you achieve your objective. And that is the bottom line, not

00:56:18.580 how can I be right as often as possible? Yeah. And I just have to throw a little caution. I

00:56:24.140 understood what you were saying, but you know, when you go into a discussion with somebody,

00:56:27.760 you said, I want to win. And you meant win in the broad sense of the term. Correct. Correct.

00:56:33.660 Meaning, meaning I don't want to win. When you come to me with a plan, I don't want to win

00:56:37.700 the objective, not the debate. I want to win as a team that we come up with the best plan. And if

00:56:45.620 that plan happens to be yours, that's the plan I want to use because I want us to win. Yes,

00:56:51.260 absolutely. Right. Yeah. No, I'm glad you clarified that. What do you see going from here? I mean,

00:56:57.040 obviously you've made big pivots. You're doing a lot more online, which is greatly enhanced. I

00:57:02.420 imagine your business and your efficiency, like you talked about earlier, you know, where do you see you

00:57:07.080 going and how do you decide that? That's, that's the important question. Cause guys are thinking to

00:57:11.420 themselves, you know, my, my job isn't as secure as I once thought it was, uh, income isn't coming

00:57:17.460 in. Like, how do I know where to go and what am I looking for when it comes to pivoting?

00:57:23.560 So there's, there's a term that gets used in the military and, and I hate to use this term because

00:57:29.660 it has some super negative connotations to it clearly, but the term that you use in the military

00:57:35.500 military is exploit. And, and what happens is, you know, you have an opportunity and because you're

00:57:42.280 talking about an enemy, then it doesn't really matter that you're trying to exploit opportunities

00:57:47.260 where the enemy is weak, but it sounds bad when you say it in, in the civilian sector that you're

00:57:53.820 looking to exploit something. Fortunately, we've with our, with our audience, fortunately we've got,

00:57:59.640 we've got a smart audience. They understand nuance and they know what the hell we're talking about.

00:58:04.140 We're not talking about taking advantage or at the expense of somebody else. They know that.

00:58:10.520 So when you are in the military, what you are constantly doing is you're constantly,

00:58:15.640 you know, doing reconnaissance and, and listening and paying attention and probing to find out

00:58:22.340 where enemy weaknesses are so that you can exploit those weaknesses. And sometimes you send a

00:58:28.860 reconnaissance team out and they, they think they find something and they start to go down it.

00:58:33.220 And maybe you send an assault team there to start giving them some backup and maybe they're able

00:58:38.020 to penetrate and exploit that weakness, or maybe they get there and they meet some harder resistance

00:58:42.820 than they expected. And you back out, you try something else. That's basically how I operate.

00:58:48.660 My life is I am very open-minded. I'm constantly probing and paying attention. I have an open mind

00:58:56.560 listening, doing reconnaissance, sending reconnaissance teams out, getting feedback, running feedback loops

00:59:03.620 and paying attention to what the feedback that I get is. And if I find a weakness or I find an opening

00:59:10.840 or I find an opportunity, I guess that's the word we could use for the civilian sector. If I find an

00:59:16.320 opportunity, it presents itself, then I will start to concentrate forces and resources into that

00:59:23.540 opportunity. If that opportunity continues to develop, I'll continue to put resources into that

00:59:29.000 opportunity. If it continues to develop, I'll put more resources in there. If at some point I say,

00:59:34.940 hmm, opportunity is not what I thought it was, I have no problem at all saying I was wrong,

00:59:40.820 bad opportunity. I'm going to take those resources out and I'm going to put them somewhere else.

00:59:45.580 So that is how I operate. I do the same thing that I did in the military, which is pay constant

00:59:52.800 attention to what is going on around me, put reconnaissance out there, pay attention, put resources

00:59:59.180 into things, not expect anything in return. If I do get something in return, maybe I put some more

01:00:05.660 resources there. If it turns out to be good, I'll continue to press that opportunity until it either

01:00:12.220 comes to a greater fruition or it comes to a point where I say, okay, this isn't what I thought it was

01:00:17.880 and no problem. I'm going to retract my resources and apply them somewhere else.

01:00:23.160 Yeah, that's good because I think a lot of guys, what they believe is that if they take a step

01:00:26.960 towards some path, you know, A, B, or C that they're fully vested, it's like, no, you're just

01:00:31.980 taking one step. And if it presents itself even more, another, then another, then another. And then

01:00:37.380 you can always backtrack or take another path if that opens up and that opportunity opens up.

01:00:42.460 You know, I have the luxury, I will say, of seeing like the dynamic duo that is Jocko and Pete. And I see

01:00:48.860 this every day. And even though Pete and I talk about every other day, he'll post something on

01:00:53.960 Instagram. I'm like, dude, we were talking like 24 hours ago and you like, now you have this thing

01:00:58.640 built. Like you didn't even like slightly allude to that. And he's like, yeah, I wasn't thinking

01:01:03.240 about it then. I'm like, that was 24 hours ago. And so it's actually really powerful to see you guys

01:01:07.900 operate and how quickly you guys put this stuff into action. And I like that you talked about

01:01:13.160 exploiting opportunities, right? You're not exploiting people, you're exploiting opportunities and seeing what

01:01:19.500 presents itself. I actually had a similar experience. We've got this battle planner for men that men are

01:01:26.280 using. It's been very successful. They've had a lot of success with it. And my son came to me several

01:01:31.200 months ago and he's like, Hey dad, can I use one of those? And I'm like, I don't know. Like, I don't

01:01:35.520 think this is for you, but like, why don't we create something for you? And so him and I sat down and we

01:01:40.740 actually created something for him and we're making it available in 30 days. I know it's going to do very,

01:01:46.040 very well, but that's a perfect example of an opportunities that that's there. I didn't

01:01:51.380 recognize it for whatever reason before my son is the one who presented it to me. And, and here we

01:01:56.340 are stepping into something. Maybe it pans out, maybe it doesn't, but we're going to try it and

01:02:00.440 we're going to see how it does. You print some copies. You see how those do. If they do, then you

01:02:06.480 get some more copies made. Maybe you put a little bit more behind them. And that's exactly what I'm

01:02:10.980 talking about. Yeah, man. It's good. It's exciting. It's exciting times. That's what

01:02:15.900 I look at now is like, I think a lot of people are, are worried and frustrated and concerned.

01:02:20.000 And certainly there's things to be upset and concerned about, uh, but not to the point of

01:02:24.400 inaction and not to the point of retreat, but to the point of, all right, well, where do we pivot?

01:02:29.180 Where do we change? How do we evolve? How do we get better because of it?

01:02:32.780 Yeah. And you know, you've got to take your ego out of the, out of the, out of the equation.

01:02:37.240 And I know that's one of the interesting things about working with Pete is we make big decisions

01:02:44.160 with no ego whatsoever. And I think one of the funniest things to, to talk about is, you know,

01:02:52.300 Pete is a designer, right? He's an artistic designer guy. And he had some, he has some personal

01:03:00.080 pride around that. Like he likes to do that. He went to college for it. You know, he went to college

01:03:06.460 for art design. That's his thing. He, he, and he's great at a bunch of other things too, but that's

01:03:12.420 like, he likes doing that stuff and he's proud of it. And when we're, let's say designing a package,

01:03:18.340 let's say we're designing a package for something, a can or a, or a bottle or a label or whatever.

01:03:24.120 And he'll send me, you know, Hey, what do you think of this? And I'll be like, uh, too much color here,

01:03:28.880 whatever. And he doesn't take any offense to it whatsoever. And maybe he'll come back and say,

01:03:35.380 I don't know, here's why I did that. And I'll say, Oh, I didn't know that you did it for that

01:03:39.920 reason. I didn't understand that now that I understand it, but we will, we will come up with

01:03:44.660 whole battle plans in a matter of, you know, seven text messages. We won't even talk to each other.

01:03:52.900 It'll be text messages where, you know, he sends me an image of something. I say, do a little bit of

01:03:58.240 that to it, this to it, or that to it. He sends it back with those adjustments. I say, you know what?

01:04:02.900 I was wrong. It doesn't look as good as I thought it would change it back to what you had. And, and

01:04:07.800 this has, when you talk about the, the, the, the speed with which we move, a lot of that is because

01:04:17.420 we are only looking for solutions. We don't have any agenda. We're able to communicate to each other

01:04:23.640 very quickly, very bluntly with no emotions and no ego whatsoever. And it makes everything very,

01:04:30.960 very, very powerful. And it's the same thing with Brian over in fuels, because you know,

01:04:36.820 I'll say, Hey, Brian, I like the way this tastes or Hey, Brian, this consistency is wrong or Hey,

01:04:40.540 Brian. And he's like, cool, working it. Cool. I'm working it. And that's just the way it is.

01:04:44.380 He's not saying, well, you don't understand this. Or I think that now it's not saying he won't give

01:04:50.100 me his opinion. And both those guys, they'll give me their opinion all day long. And the reason

01:04:54.820 they'll give me their opinion all day long is they know that I actually respect and, and yearn

01:05:01.620 to hear their opinion because I don't think I'm right all the time. I think, you know what,

01:05:06.440 here's what I think, but I know I can be wrong. I know I can absolutely have the wrong idea in my

01:05:12.440 head. And so I want to get pushback from people. I don't want people that are just yes, men talking to

01:05:19.900 me. I don't want followers following me. I want people working with me. And that's what,

01:05:27.420 you know, that's what I end up with. So I think, you know, obviously with Pete

01:05:32.000 and Brian as well, you, you, you built that relationship to the, to the point where you've

01:05:36.180 earned for lack of a better term, the capital to be able to say, no, I like this. No, I don't like

01:05:40.860 this. Change this, tweak this because you've proven to them that it's not an ego thing. It's like,

01:05:47.280 let's, let's win this thing collectively, right? Let's win this objective. But how do you approach

01:05:52.660 people that maybe you haven't had the opportunity to build that relationship with? And how do you

01:05:58.880 strike the balance between offering encouragement versus giving constructive criticism and feedback

01:06:06.060 that will help the team move forward? Because I think a lot of people might initially interpret that

01:06:10.820 differently than you intended. Which part do you think they would interpret differently than I

01:06:16.500 intended? Not you specifically, but I think that if somebody offers any sort of criticism,

01:06:25.500 I think they may have a tendency in a lot of cases to take it personally rather than believe that will

01:06:31.720 help the team. And that's why we're giving the feedback we're giving. So you're saying people

01:06:37.280 might give too harsh of criticism because of, or just, well, I'm saying, let me give you an example.

01:06:46.140 I'll back up and give you an example. Let's say we've got a new leader, brand new leader in an

01:06:51.060 organization and he's got a project that he's working on and the project isn't going as well as

01:06:58.960 it should, or hopefully it will go or trying to meet deadlines or whatever it is. And that leader

01:07:03.340 comes and offers criticism that will actually propel the project forward. But the people he's

01:07:08.220 criticizing are, are interpreting that incorrectly or maybe interpreting correctly. And it's just

01:07:14.960 coming across too harsh. Like how do you know what the right amount of criticism is to give and how

01:07:20.100 do you approach that criticism? Yeah. So when you're in a situation like that, um, first of all,

01:07:26.540 we have to assume that everybody that we talk to are going to be offended by what we say to them

01:07:30.720 when it comes to giving them criticism. That's, that's the, that's the standard that we have to

01:07:35.700 go with because that's what is most common. What is most common? If I say, Hey Ryan, you know,

01:07:42.520 your podcast, you can get real verbose during it. Now, look, I might mean that like, Hey, I'm just

01:07:50.620 trying to help you out. It doesn't matter, man. You've done 600 episodes. You've got whatever

01:07:55.700 following you've got. You've put your heart and soul into this thing. You're going to be mad that

01:08:00.580 I said that you're going to be offended by the fact that I said that if I say, Hey, you know,

01:08:07.440 your podcast, you talk about the same things over and over again. If that's what, if that,

01:08:13.240 and by the way, I'm just giving critiques that anyone could give to my podcast as well. I talk

01:08:16.660 about the same thing. I'm actually, I'm actually wondering like, Oh shit. Like, is this criticism?

01:08:19.820 Like he's really good. Should I be writing this stuff down? Well, it's, it's, it's what anyone

01:08:24.620 could say about my podcast as well, which is your podcast is too long. You talk too much and you talk

01:08:29.380 about the, you know, war all the time. No one wants to hear that. Or so, so these are all,

01:08:33.840 but, but guess what? When I hear that. So, so like you said, what's your natural reaction? Your

01:08:39.160 natural natural reaction is that you bristle up and you say, Oh, you don't know what you're talking

01:08:42.840 about. You, you know, you're just new here, you know, going back to your example, you're just new

01:08:47.940 here. You don't know how it works. You don't understand this project. You don't have the knowledge

01:08:51.040 that we have. Shut up. We're going to keep doing it this way. So what you have to do is approach

01:08:55.940 people like you are approach approaching a worst case scenario, which is their ego is going to take

01:09:00.860 offense to what you're going to say. So now what you have to do is communicate with them in a way

01:09:05.520 that disarms their ego. How do you do that? Number one, easiest lesson to do is take ownership of what

01:09:12.420 you're about to say. So instead of me saying, Hey, um, you know, Hey Ryan, the way you're running this

01:09:19.020 project, uh, what would be a good thing? The way you're running this project, you're not ordering

01:09:24.940 supplies early enough. And that's why you're behind schedule. So that's what am I doing when

01:09:32.760 I say that to you, I'm attacking you. Instead, if I come to you and say, Hey Ryan, I noticed that the

01:09:37.880 supplies that you need for the project, they're not getting there in time. Is there anything I could

01:09:42.940 do that would help facilitate you getting what you need since you're the point person on this project?

01:09:48.740 Totally different conversation, right? And now instead of being, I took ownership of it. And

01:09:55.460 by the way, I mean, I talk about all this stuff in, in leadership strategy and tactics. The reason I

01:10:00.580 wrote leadership strategy and tactics is because I realized that when I talk about the principles of

01:10:04.840 leadership and extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership, the principles are very clear. And I

01:10:09.160 work with people all the time that understand the principles, but they don't actually understand how

01:10:13.940 to put those principles, how to apply into action. And so leadership strategy and tactics, I actually

01:10:20.080 have, you know, examples of what to say in situations like what you're talking about. How do you, how do

01:10:28.060 you soften the approach? How do you use an indirect approach instead of a direct approach? Because just

01:10:33.140 like combat, the direct approach, the frontal assault is the worst option you can take. Even though it

01:10:40.740 takes the most courage, and even though it's the boldest, it is the worst option that you can take

01:10:45.360 99% of the time. So what does that mean? You want to take an indirect approach. How do you do that?

01:10:52.080 You need to think about what you're going to say. You need to think about how you communicate with

01:10:54.720 people. So to this example, that's what you do. You take an indirect approach. You figure out how you

01:10:59.960 can communicate with someone in a way that it doesn't offend them. It opens their mind. It allows them to

01:11:04.300 be open for suggestion. You can even plant seeds into their brain where they think that the idea that

01:11:08.940 you put in their brain is their own. That's what you want to do.

01:11:14.120 And, and, and when they take credit for them, say good, good job type thing. Like right on, let's get

01:11:19.020 this done.

01:11:19.720 When they take credit, you cheer them on and you say, yes, absolutely. Great job.

01:11:26.940 It's powerful, man. I think I got it up there somewhere. I know it's up there somewhere. The

01:11:30.860 leadership strategy and tactics is up there somewhere in those books. So I've got them all, man. I've got

01:11:35.780 them all. Jocko, I appreciate you. Hey, I was going to ask, as we wind things down,

01:11:42.120 we're going to shoot some more arrows, come fall for a immersion camp.

01:11:47.260 Well, I don't know if you've heard yet, but immersion camp is canceled.

01:11:50.360 Apparently I have not heard yet. See, you see how quickly things change with Pete.

01:11:56.240 Immersion camp is canceled.

01:11:58.320 Bummer. We, we just, we held on as long as we could. We tried to figure out if there was a

01:12:04.600 feasible way to do this. And the bottom line, the rules that are in place, it's just not possible.

01:12:13.160 It's not possible.

01:12:14.020 Main's rough.

01:12:14.800 It is not possible to do a jujitsu camp within the rules. And it's also impossible to take four or 500

01:12:24.940 people from around the country to travel to a location in airplanes and all get together and

01:12:31.820 sweat and spit and slobber on each other over and over again and think that we're going to get out of

01:12:37.780 that without spreading this virus. So, you know, we had to make the call. And so there'll be no

01:12:44.840 immersion camp. That being said, I may be coming to Maine anyways. Pete and I have some, Pete and Brian

01:12:51.920 and I have some, some business to handle in the coming months. And so if I do come, yeah, I'll bring

01:12:58.260 my bow and, and we can, we can shoot some, uh, shoot some, shoot some bow and arrow.

01:13:03.440 I gotta, I gotta see that new, uh, custom build by the one and only John Dudley. It looks pretty solid.

01:13:08.020 You've been practicing quite a bit with that thing.

01:13:10.180 Yeah. You know, I've got a nice little spot at my house here in California where I can get, uh, out to

01:13:15.860 about 42 yards, nothing crazy, but it's enough to hit your reps every day. And, and yeah, that's what I do.

01:13:21.580 I go out, you know, I, I shoot a bunch of arrows every day, just trying to keep it dialed,

01:13:26.080 relax my brain a little bit, relax my eyesight a little bit from staring at screens from my job

01:13:31.780 and, and let it go. That's one of the things that's a pretty powerful in just watching you,

01:13:38.660 you know, casually observing from on social media. And of course our, our conversations is seeing,

01:13:43.300 okay, jujitsu every day, working out every day, shooting the arrows every day. Like these are

01:13:48.000 things that are non-negotiables. And I think if it's important, you'll do it

01:13:51.520 every single day. And you, uh, you exhibit that very well. I think it's very influential

01:13:56.280 and inspirational to other people who want to, uh, embed these things into their routines.

01:14:01.640 Yeah. You got to make time. You got to make time. Time's not going to times. Time doesn't

01:14:06.660 put itself on your calendar to do things like, uh, take care of yourself and you got to take,

01:14:13.000 you got to put some time on there because if you lose that, you can't take care of anyone else.

01:14:17.260 Well, I, you know, it's interesting when you say that, I think this is where language is very

01:14:21.720 important because what I hear a lot of people say is I just don't have the time. No, you,

01:14:26.200 you have the time because I have the time. Jocko, you have the time. So it's there. It's just not a

01:14:32.540 priority. And that's fine. If it's not a priority, at least say that, but don't say you don't have the

01:14:37.320 time. Just prioritize it the right way. No doubt. No doubt. You can, you can figure out

01:14:43.980 time. 90. There's a, I won't say I won't put a percentage on it. The vast majority of people in

01:14:49.160 the world can find a little bit more time in their day. And if that means 20 minutes to go shoot 20

01:14:55.080 arrows or 15 arrows. Cool. If that means 15 minutes to go do some burpees or some pull-ups,

01:15:01.980 you can find that time if you want it. Yes, sir. All right, Jocko, we'll let you go on,

01:15:09.200 let you get going. I do appreciate you as always. I've always appreciated our conversations and they

01:15:14.280 get easier every time. It's not, it's not as challenging as that first one was. So I'll put

01:15:18.640 that on both of us. We've both, uh, we've both improved, but, uh, just want to let you know,

01:15:22.920 Jocko, that I appreciate you and everything you stand for and how you've inspired me. Thanks a lot,

01:15:26.480 man. Right on, man. Appreciate it. Good talking to you. And hopefully I'll see you up in Maine.

01:15:30.700 Yep. We'll get some arrows down range. Right on gentlemen. There you go. My conversation with

01:15:37.340 Jocko Willink. I hope you enjoyed the fourth installment, the fourth round. Uh, they get

01:15:42.020 better every time. I told you that a minute ago. And, uh, obviously this is no exception.

01:15:46.160 He continues to improve his game. I hopefully continue to improve mine. Uh, and then ultimately

01:15:52.040 it's to give you everything that you need to thrive and succeed and lead. And regardless of what

01:15:56.880 capacity you serve, you are a leader. People are looking at you, your wife, your kids, colleagues,

01:16:02.560 coworkers, neighbors, boys that you coach on the baseball team. Like people are looking at you

01:16:06.900 and your ability to lead not easy times, but in difficult, uncertain, scary times is your true

01:16:15.200 measure as a leader. And what we shared today, I think will help you do just that. So connect with me

01:16:20.920 on the socials, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, connect with Jocko, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter.

01:16:26.340 You guys can find us YouTube. We're everywhere. All right. Jocko is a little bit, obviously more

01:16:30.040 prevalent than I am, but let us know what you thought about the show. Let us know if there was

01:16:34.100 a takeaway, something that stood out to you, uh, message Jocko message me, tell me what you like.

01:16:39.300 Please also share. You guys shared thousands, literally thousands of times. Uh, the podcast that I did

01:16:46.720 with Andy Frisilla last week. I really, really appreciate that. And more than just doing it for

01:16:52.540 me, there's other men who will be positively impacted because you took a couple of minutes,

01:16:58.940 you left a rating review or you shared it, or you re-shared it on Instagram or you retweeted on,

01:17:05.700 on Twitter, whatever it is you're doing. Just let's get the word out. Let's get the word out.

01:17:09.300 There's no reason that this shouldn't continue to grow. Shouldn't continue to reach the masses.

01:17:14.080 If you've been with us for any amount of time, you know how valuable the information is that we're

01:17:18.100 sharing. And I would just ask that you do your part by making it available to the people in your

01:17:23.880 life. That's it. Simple. All right, guys, we're going to let you get going. I'll be back tomorrow

01:17:28.940 with another. Ask me anything. I hope you guys are enjoying those installments as well, but until

01:17:33.240 then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to. Thank you for listening to the

01:17:38.440 order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to

01:17:43.620 be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - July 21, 2020

JOCKO WILLINK ｜ Leading in Challenging and Uncertain Times

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