Order of Man - JOE DE SENA ｜ Rules for Resilience

00:00:00.020 Guys, life is hard. We're all dealt with hands we don't particularly appreciate, but that's really

00:00:04.940 no reason at all and no excuse to crumble and shirk our responsibilities. In the wake of

00:00:10.380 difficulty, however, I know it can be challenging to drive on and power through. My guest today,

00:00:15.060 Joe DeSena, the founder of Spartan, has made a life of doing just that and helping millions

00:00:20.280 of people do the same for themselves. Today, Joe and I talk about what true resilience looks like,

00:00:25.240 how discipline breeds responsibility, when it's actually okay to quit based on your priorities,

00:00:31.220 why you should consider making things harder in life for yourself and those you care about,

00:00:36.180 and also the rules for resilience for yourself and your family.

00:00:40.520 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your

00:00:45.600 own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you are not easily

00:00:51.580 deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is

00:00:58.900 who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself

00:01:04.280 a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler. I'm the host and the founder of the

00:01:10.100 Order of Men podcast and movement. If you are new today, know that we are having conversations with

00:01:15.000 absolutely incredible men. I think we've done at this point, 360 plus interviews and nearly 900

00:01:23.600 total podcasts on this journey over the past six and a half years now. So we've got some great

00:01:30.280 information out there. It's going to be hard, a little hard to catch up at this point, knowing

00:01:34.380 we've been going for six and a half years, but we've had guys like Jocko Willink and David Goggins,

00:01:40.260 Tim Kennedy, John Eldridge, Ben Shapiro, Dan Crenshaw, man, you name it. We've had some

00:01:49.020 incredible, incredible men on the podcast. And my guest today, Joe DeSena is not only a repeat

00:01:54.000 guest, but an incredible man himself. And you guys are going to hear a little bit about that

00:01:57.800 as we have our discussion today. Before we get into it, let me just share and introduce you

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00:03:37.660 All right, guys, let me introduce you to Mr. Joe DeSena. As I mentioned earlier, he is the founder

00:03:43.980 of Spartan. He's also a former Wall Street broker, but he really turned his passion for physical fitness

00:03:49.000 into, I think, what can only be described as a globally recognized movement, Spartan races.

00:03:54.760 Uh, in fact, as I started my journey to improve my physical health, I actually started with Spartan

00:03:59.680 races myself. I've completed, uh, two trifectas. That's all three Spartan races in a, in a single

00:04:05.180 year. And then I capped that off with the Spartan-a-gogi, which is a 60 hour grueling, painstaking

00:04:11.560 endurance event. So I am very, very familiar with what these guys do, but Joe is a New York

00:04:17.280 Times bestselling author. And admittedly by him, he's a bit of a freak. Uh, at one point,

00:04:23.120 I think he was known for carrying kettlebells around in the airport on trips. I'm not sure

00:04:26.560 if he still does that or not. Uh, but his books, his work, his movement, they've all

00:04:30.880 been instrumental on my own journey. And I know if you're not familiar with him, or even

00:04:35.020 if you are, uh, what he teaches and what he preaches is going to be instrumental on

00:04:39.240 yours as well. Enjoy guys.

00:04:42.400 Joe, what's up, man? It's been a couple of years, man. We did a podcast. Gosh, I want to

00:04:46.440 say I should have looked. It's been probably four years or more. So, um, but it's good

00:04:53.360 to finally connect again.

00:04:54.780 It's awesome to connect. I'm, I'm always excited when there's somebody willing to talk

00:04:58.840 to me because nobody in my house wants to talk to me. My kids think I'm an idiot at 0.99

00:05:03.280 times. Like my boys wrestle, my, my daughters play soccer. I did neither. So when I'm pushing 1.00

00:05:08.660 them, uh, even this morning and now my boys, now they beat me up. How old are they? 16 and

00:05:17.460 14. And I can't, I'm no longer able to muscle through. I just can't win. So, um, and then

00:05:24.580 my wife's tougher than me. I'm my dog's even tougher than I am. So I've got a, uh, so I've

00:05:31.640 got four kids. My oldest is 13 and he's hit puberty or starting to, and he's almost as tall

00:05:37.980 as I am. He's already wearing my shoes and he's always, you know, I'm going to be able

00:05:41.560 to take you dad. I'm like, nah, you'll never be able to take me. But the only thing I've

00:05:44.940 been able to do to make sure I stay out ahead of it is, uh, is train jujitsu, which realize,

00:05:50.000 you know, of course, less on strength and more of just cunning that old man strength. I'm going

00:05:53.760 to need to acquire in order to keep up with the kid. I love it. I love it. Yeah, man.

00:05:58.720 So, well, it, you know, you actually hit on something I wanted to talk with you about today.

00:06:02.360 So let's just jump right into it. Um, I'm, I'm, I know a little bit about your, uh,

00:06:07.860 your interaction with your kids, the way that you push and motivate and inspire them

00:06:11.820 and lead as a father to some degree. Um, I did, I've done Spartan races. I did the Spartan

00:06:16.580 and I know a little bit about that, you know, with, with the way that you push your kids,

00:06:22.300 have you ever received any sort of bumping up against or frustrations where, you know,

00:06:29.440 they, they, they get discouraged or they get rebellious in nature because of how hard you

00:06:35.020 push. Well, you know, it's funny. I don't even know if you know this or not, but, um,

00:06:40.540 but the rebellion that we're going to talk about here, not only from my kids, but from the outside

00:06:45.180 world was the impetus. I wrote a book that came out probably three months ago, two, three months ago

00:06:50.380 called, um, I don't know if you know it or not called the 10 rules of resilience. Um, you got it.

00:06:55.960 Cool. Yep. Got it right here. Yeah. So, so, uh, the reason that book came about was for

00:07:00.780 the exact question you asked, um, folks in the neighborhood were driving by while I was having

00:07:08.100 the kids carry kettlebells, I don't know, mile, mile and a half. And, and this woman stopped and 0.99

00:07:13.300 she got out and started yelling and wanted to know if the kids were okay. And I didn't, I wasn't going

00:07:19.100 to get in a fight, right. Cause that would have been disrespectful, but I was trying to be as nice

00:07:22.560 as I could. And, you know, ma'am, uh, they're my kids. Um, is he, is he hurting you in any way?

00:07:29.240 Do you need water? And I realized, you know, it's not really her fault because she hasn't seen

00:07:35.240 a child on a sidewalk in probably a decade. She hasn't seen a child on a sidewalk carrying a

00:07:41.460 kettlebell ever. Right. And so like, we just don't see kids outside anymore. Um, and so this was,

00:07:47.260 this was, this was like a foreign animal walking around and, and then internally that's external

00:07:54.000 and that happens everywhere. And I, I got people giving my kids cookies and I'm scratching my head.

00:07:58.480 Why did you just offer my kid a cookie? I'm, I'm in the middle of skiing with my, we don't need

00:08:03.160 cookies. I don't understand. So lots of outside influence. That's, uh, bizarre to say the least.

00:08:09.500 And then, um, internally, you know, I was pushing my oldest son really hard during COVID. I, I use the

00:08:17.300 opportunity. We did a couple of things. I know, I know folks are going to be jealous of this because

00:08:22.060 when I reflect back, it was awesome. But during COVID, we went to the farm for the first 100 days when the

00:08:27.560 country got shut down and, um, we hiked the mountain in the backyard on the farm every day

00:08:32.700 for a hundred days straight. Um, which was awesome. I can't even, I can't even imagine another time in,

00:08:38.360 in our lives where we would get to do that. So, so that was awesome. We worked out every single day

00:08:44.340 and my kids did live workouts. My little daughter got literally millions of views doing live workouts 0.98

00:08:50.340 where she got to lead classes. Um, so yeah, so that was, um, amazing. And then from there I said,

00:08:59.860 you know what, we're going to go on a tear with wrestling. My wife did it with soccer with the 1.00

00:09:05.020 girls. I did it with wrestling with the boys. And, uh, because wrestlers are pretty right wing 1.00

00:09:10.800 conservative folks, um, all the clubs were still open, no masks. I know people listening are going to

00:09:17.360 say, Oh, Joe, you're so irresponsible. But my feeling, whether it was too many people listening

00:09:21.760 to this, you'll be right on this one. Yeah. So I, my feeling with it was, um,

00:09:27.720 this, and I said it very early on and I got slaughtered on social media. This is a, um,

00:09:34.560 virus that you're not going to be able to run from. Like, I don't understand. Like my feeling was,

00:09:39.920 let's just get it over with. And now that we know what we know, certainly if you were over 65 years old,

00:09:45.060 whatever, or you had preexisting conditions, you should protect the hell out of those people.

00:09:49.260 But otherwise let's just let it rip through the country as quick, as quickly as we can.

00:09:54.500 That was my feeling, whether right or wrong, that was what I, and so when I found out all these

00:09:58.600 wrestling rooms were open and there were still tournaments going on, oh my God, we jumped in

00:10:02.740 our van and we worked, we wrestled twice a night. We, we went to every single tournament in the

00:10:09.200 country. I zipzagged through the country. And, um, and so it was awesome. Right. Again, spending all

00:10:15.900 that time with my family, but then it was, um, it was hard on my oldest son reflecting back. And

00:10:22.120 there was a moment, there was one night where he was just like out of it. And he was like, I don't,

00:10:28.300 I don't feel like wrestling. It was like our third practice that day or something. And I,

00:10:31.620 and I realized looking back that I just became a psycho, like give the kid a break. Like,

00:10:38.700 but I didn't, I was like, what, what the hell? We're already here. We drove an hour. Your brother's

00:10:43.080 out there. And, you know, it was, it was stupid on my part. And, um, and I pushed them pretty hard 1.00

00:10:50.700 only later that night to finally just have a talk with them, which was awesome. That said like,

00:10:56.040 Hey man, you know, I love, you know, we had just a real emotional moment together.

00:11:01.620 And I still, I just have to check myself because not that I'm living vicariously

00:11:07.540 through them. I want like, we all parents do. I want the best for them. And, and I'm a psycho.

00:11:14.040 I'm, I'm, everybody knows I'm a maniac. And do you know that firsthand actually? 0.93

00:11:19.340 Yeah. If we, and you know, if, if there's a moment where we're doing nothing,

00:11:23.000 like we should be doing something like, what are you guys doing right now? Let's like,

00:11:27.100 let's go wrestle. Let's do this. Let's, let's right. Let's, let's, let's learn something.

00:11:31.620 How come you're not doing Mandarin? So there was that day where it highlighted my insanity 0.99

00:11:37.260 and I pushed a little too hard. Um, and I've had to just keep it in check.

00:11:43.820 It doesn't appear that I've done it again or could do it again because now school is back.

00:11:53.240 Life is back. That was a moment in time where I had like unfettered access 24 hours a day to the kid.

00:12:01.460 And we were just like on it. So I don't know if I answered the question well or not, but it,

00:12:06.420 it was a good chance for me to look in the mirror and say, I definitely went, I went too far that day

00:12:12.600 and, and probably for a whole part of the year. I, you know, I, I'm glad you said that, but even

00:12:18.140 still, and I think you'd agree that the greater risk is we don't go far enough. That that's the

00:12:22.260 greater risk is not that we go too far. It's that we don't push hard enough. We have helicopter

00:12:26.740 parenting. You talk about quite about in the book about bubble wrapping our kids and, and,

00:12:31.960 and you see it. We just got back from a vacation and it was like this all inclusive,

00:12:36.560 amazing trip in Mexico. And I just thought, man, we've gotten fat and lazy and pathetic over these 0.99

00:12:43.280 past seven days. But that seems to be what I think most of society does, you know, 365 days a year, 0.98

00:12:52.260 not seven days a year. Well, you just gave me a great idea. You and I have just invented a term

00:12:57.360 on this podcast right here. We're going to call it B one bombing parenting, B one parenting,

00:13:03.080 right? Where, where you, where you purposely drop bombs in their way and obstacles and just

00:13:09.100 make their life much harder than it otherwise would be. And, and that's, you know, that's what

00:13:15.480 I'm a believer in because, because my feeling is, um, they're going to have to get up early when we're

00:13:22.860 not around, they're going to have to face like anytime my kids are complaining about something,

00:13:26.740 I'm like, come to the office. Like, you know what I'm dealing with? I got to make payroll.

00:13:30.740 I got shit going on in the middle of a desert in Abu Dhabi. It's all like, 0.99

00:13:34.300 I got so much stuff I'm dealing with. You're complaining about what, you know, you know what

00:13:40.240 I mean? So like, so we, we need to get them to, like, I walk around this office sometimes I'm

00:13:45.820 thinking, gee, am I preparing them enough for what they would have to do when I'm not around?

00:13:50.840 Um, my dad pushed me really hard and my mom pushed me hard in a different direction with

00:13:57.380 health and wellness. And, and at the time they weren't making any friends with me, but later in

00:14:03.280 life, they're both gone. I look back and I'm like, thank God, you know what? They could even

00:14:07.720 pushed harder. Hmm. Right. Like how come they didn't make me learn another language? How come

00:14:12.620 they didn't, you don't want to hear it at the time when you're 14 or 15 or sit like, but when you're

00:14:18.400 30 something years old, you're like, oh, I get it now. And then when you have kids, you're like,

00:14:23.200 oh, I really get it. Yeah, absolutely. That that's where I'm at. You know, with my kids,

00:14:28.060 I've got four. And if we take the path of least resistance, the path that everybody else wants us

00:14:33.580 to take, like you said, they'll be handing out cookies and everything else. Um, but I think you

00:14:38.200 did a really good job in this, in this book about outlining just 10, well, you call them rules,

00:14:43.980 factors, whatever you want to call them that are going to help you lead your children more

00:14:48.220 effectively in this weak culture that we live in today. Do you see, I, the other day I posted, um,

00:14:54.200 somebody tipped me off that the progressives had come up with this idea of a four day work week.

00:15:00.180 And I, and I tried to be as, you know, um, politically correct as I could be. And I said,

00:15:06.280 look, I don't care what political affiliation you have. I don't care what religious beliefs you have.

00:15:09.820 Like, as long as you're a good person, but like, just think about this guys. Um,

00:15:13.820 the number one motivator for our species is the avoidance of discomfort. We will avoid discomfort

00:15:20.160 at all costs, subconsciously, consciously, we wake up in the morning to work out. All of a sudden,

00:15:25.200 we're making coffee and trying to read news. The only reason we're making coffee and trying to read

00:15:29.160 news is because our bodies and minds are saying, don't do it. Don't go work out. It's too hard.

00:15:33.780 Right. And so we, we just take the easy route, any chance we get. And if you don't believe me,

00:15:42.540 wake up at 5am in New York city, a city of 8 million people go to central park, a beautiful park

00:15:48.120 on a sunny day, sunny morning, that's, you know, a warm day. And tell me how many people are out there.

00:15:54.020 They are 8 million people out there working out. No, there's about eight if you're lucky.

00:15:58.580 And so the point is we all look to avoid, um, discomfort. So I said, these progressives are

00:16:05.680 coming out with this idea of a four day work week. Why not three day? Why, why don't we just

00:16:12.000 work one day or none or none? Why do we have to work at all? I mean, we think about all the time

00:16:17.360 we could spend with our families. I would love it. You would love it. Right. We could exercise more.

00:16:21.340 We could do more Spartan races. But the reality is when I, I lived all over the world. I've lived in

00:16:27.120 Japan. I've lived in China. I've lived in Vancouver, Singapore, everywhere. I were in 45

00:16:31.620 countries. And when I, when I'm, I'm just thinking about my trip in China, for example,

00:16:37.560 when I was there and I'm going to see these big companies with thousands of employees

00:16:40.860 and I'm seeing people sleep at their desks. And I'm like, Oh, that's, that's weird. And you know,

00:16:46.680 I go to the manager, what's going on here? Oh, those are the folks that work 20 hours straight.

00:16:50.920 We let them nap for 15 minutes. Oh, what are those, what I'm not even kidding. What are those

00:16:55.680 tents in the corner over there? Oh, those are the folks that stay three days in a row. We let them 0.53

00:17:00.200 sleep in tents in like, and so on. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but what I'm saying is,

00:17:05.740 um, how do you expect this country? Check this out. How do you expect this country to compete with that?

00:17:13.340 Last week, I'm leaving this office and there's a 13 year old Chinese kid trying to come in the 0.97

00:17:21.580 office. And I say, hi, could I help you? And he says, yeah, I'm looking for, um, Spartan. This is

00:17:27.260 Joe. I'm, Oh, Mr. DeSena. I got my book. I got your book. I would love to get it signed. I came here

00:17:33.120 from China. I did, I did a race in China and it changed my life. And so my mom was willing,

00:17:40.320 we saved up money and we flew here to Boston. Whoa. And so I'm, and the kid is articulate.

00:17:47.820 The kid was unbelievable. He's, he's going to go to a private school here in Boston to the mother

00:17:53.500 basically sacrificed her whole life to get this to happen. And I'm like, my kids don't have a chance

00:18:01.140 competing with this kid. Yeah. So you want to, you want a four day work week or a three day work week.

00:18:09.220 Um, good luck. I mean, let me know how it goes 50 years from now. Let's look back and, and, and see

00:18:15.560 what we look like. Well, you know, not even, I mean, yes, of course, but not to mention just the

00:18:21.080 level of, I don't know if it's dissatisfaction, but I, you know, I find the most value in my life

00:18:26.960 when I am working and that doesn't mean I'm here slaving away in front of a computer. That might be

00:18:31.740 part of it. Maybe I'm cranking out words to write a book or doing a podcast like this, but even when I'm

00:18:37.600 with my kids and we're at the gym or walking around the property and I'm working hard toward,

00:18:43.600 towards a meaningful pursuit. But I think much of culture today is trying to drive us into a place

00:18:49.060 of comfort. And it sounds really enticing, man. I can't go to the beach for an hour without being

00:18:55.500 bored. I bring a shovel to the beach because if I don't have a shovel and I don't dig a hole and play

00:18:59.600 king of the hole with my kids, I'll lose my damn mind. I don't know how these people do it. 0.99

00:19:03.680 Well, you and I would be one of the five in Central Park at 5am, right? There's a few of us

00:19:09.740 and that doesn't make us right or wrong. People say, Joe, you got to stop and smell the roses. I

00:19:15.540 say, that's cool, but who's going to fertilize them, trim them, take care of them? Because of

00:19:19.920 everybody smelling them, there would be no roses. So, you know, and then I see the comments when I

00:19:26.020 posted this thing about the four-day work week. Funny enough, because I didn't expect it from the

00:19:31.640 Spartan, you know, user base. But funny enough, 99% of the responses are like, Joe, you're out of

00:19:41.620 touch with reality. Think about if it was a four-day work week, people would have more time to do Spartan

00:19:46.400 races. They'd have more time with their kids. What are you like expecting to put 13-year-olds in coal

00:19:52.200 mines? My response was, I've been working like 100 hours a week since I'm 13 years old. And then you get,

00:19:59.460 oh, I'd like to see that. That means you're only sleeping a few hours a night. Well, clearly you

00:20:04.740 don't know me because like you, I don't go to the beach without a shovel. I really don't. So I'm with

00:20:11.260 you. But we're not going to get the rest of the world to live that way. They're just not going to

00:20:18.500 do it. By the way, I got a question for you before then. Keep that thought.

00:20:24.120 So on the fifth day, when we're supposedly going to spend all this time with our families,

00:20:30.540 are our kids in school or are they going to four-day school week also? How's that work?

00:20:38.380 Yeah, I think, I think actually what I think is they'd love to have our kids 24-7. So the kids are

00:20:43.880 going to be at school. We're going to be out doing our thing, hoping big daddy government takes care of

00:20:48.500 our kids in a way that's going to be best and most effective for them. And we know it isn't, obviously.

00:20:52.560 I'm, I'm distraught over the, over the whole thing. I, I, I'm, we're moving to Florida. We're

00:21:01.640 going down to Florida. January 2nd, we're moving to Florida and I'm hoping, you know, and then when

00:21:09.160 I saw this news, I was like, man, I got to move to another country again. Because I just, I just,

00:21:15.160 for me, selfishly, and probably for you, I want to be around. I just like being around people that

00:21:20.020 are getting after it. Mm-hmm. It makes me drive even harder, you know? Yeah, I do know. And I was

00:21:27.380 thinking about that. My son and I were actually talking about peer pressure. We were driving down

00:21:30.980 the road the other day and, and his, he does some powerlifting. His coach, Sean Moore, it opened the

00:21:39.100 gym for, for these young men. And I said, hey, this is going to be awesome. You get to go. Coach

00:21:44.240 wasn't going to be there, but I'm like, open gym. You get to go. I'm like, do you have your workout?

00:21:47.700 What are you doing? He's like, oh, he programmed a workout for me. So I just do that. I'm like,

00:21:51.000 awesome. We get there. And I'm like, what time did he say? He's like, he told me to be here at nine.

00:21:55.380 I'm like, well, okay. It's a little after nine. Like, where's everybody at? He's like, I don't

00:21:59.100 know. Just drop me off, dad. I'll go work out. I'm like, nobody's here. He's like, I'll go work out.

00:22:03.420 So I dropped him off and I had to run some, run some other errands. I drove by cause he's 13. You know,

00:22:08.080 I'm going to check on him. He's by himself. I'm going to check on him. So I drove by. I'm not

00:22:11.820 going to bother him. He's with his friends working out, not another car there. And I'm like, man,

00:22:15.500 this is strange. I go pick them up and I'm like, Hey, how was the workout? He's like, oh, it was

00:22:19.380 awesome. I got a good workout in. I did this and this and this and this. I'm like, oh, who'd you work

00:22:22.680 with? He's like, nobody. I'm like, are you kidding me? Nobody came. He's like, yeah. I'm like, well,

00:22:27.560 didn't he tell the other boys? He's like, yeah, he told the other, he told us all together. I'm like, you were the

00:22:31.280 only one there. He says, yes, I was. And this goes to what you were saying about like, we're not going to convince

00:22:37.420 the world, but it also creates some amazing opportunities. If we can develop this in our

00:22:42.580 children, because they're going to be Kings and Queens in this universe. Oh my God. Think about 0.98

00:22:47.080 the competition is so easy to beat these days. My, my, my 14 year old just turned 14. He won the mile

00:22:58.980 at school. And I'm thinking he's not really that fast, but it's because everybody else is so slow.

00:23:07.420 Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's, it's, it's hard, you know, it's, it's frustrating, but again,

00:23:13.500 I think that just gives, gives us the opportunity to really instill this. But the challenge I have is

00:23:19.900 they're just bombarded with school and with teachers and with social media and all sorts of,

00:23:26.420 you know, entertainers and musicians that are promoting this mediocrity. How do you make sure

00:23:32.800 that yours is the loudest voice with regards to everything else you have to contend with?

00:23:39.720 Well, actually I want your help on this. I don't even know what it's called, but we came up

00:23:43.560 with an anti-Spartan handle on social media because, um, we figured if you can't beat them,

00:23:50.460 join them. So you should help me do this. We're going to push mediocrity, uh, because I'm hoping that

00:23:56.820 by pushing mediocrity and just being so black today, we should all eat 12 donuts. No one should 1.00

00:24:03.780 exercise, no exercise. We're on strike from exercise. Maybe it would be so ridiculous that

00:24:09.580 it'll wake people up. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, sure. So, so the anti, um, Spartan channel and, and, um, 0.87

00:24:18.440 you know, listen, in the 1970s, my mother found yoga meditation. She became a vegan and she basically

00:24:28.500 got thrown out of our house. I mean, my parents got divorced. I didn't want any part of that nonsense

00:24:32.880 and branch sandwiches. And I wanted eggplant parm. My sister didn't want any part of it. My dad got us

00:24:38.660 an account at a Chinese restaurant so we could eat normal food. But I watched her from the seventies 0.53

00:24:46.240 through the nineties, I watched her fight the whole world, including her own family,

00:24:52.820 because she believed that this was the right way. This would help you live longer, healthier life.

00:24:57.360 And, and so I recognize that I'm just going to face this resistance. Like I'll tell you what this

00:25:05.660 morning, I'll show you this video. I had to go to the doctor this morning. My ears have been ringing

00:25:11.840 for 18 months. I had a cold 18 months ago. It was probably COVID the first time I think I got COVID

00:25:18.360 like two or three times. And, um, my ears have been ringing. And so I went to the doctor and I'm

00:25:23.800 trying to get, um, this, get the, my frigging ears to stop ringing. So he's basically in his lab 0.81

00:25:29.700 coat for those watching or listening, he's in his lab coat. He's got a stethoscope on and, and we're

00:25:36.140 talking and he doesn't know what Spartan is. He doesn't know Tough Mudder or anything. And all my vitals

00:25:40.500 knock on wood, everything's perfect. And he's like, Hey, I got a question for you. Um, I want

00:25:47.520 to be able to run two miles. So here's this doctor asking me, I got this whole list of questions from

00:25:54.300 a doctor and I'm like, Oh my God, what is the world come to when doctors are asking me how to get

00:26:01.660 healthy? All right, guys, let me take a break from the conversation very quickly. Um, in January of 2018,

00:26:08.300 I wrote a book called sovereignty and that has now been read hundreds of thousands of times by men all

00:26:15.320 across the planet. And I'm actually in the process right now of writing another book. Uh, I'm going to

00:26:19.820 be writing for a couple hours after the recording of this podcast. So I've been listening to sovereignty

00:26:24.640 to ensure that I touch on new subjects that I haven't previously covered in this next book. And as I was

00:26:30.060 listening, um, I was amazed at how relevant all the information is maybe even more so almost four years

00:26:35.720 later. So I'm not going to say that I, you know, predicted the future, but I'm also not going to

00:26:41.500 say I didn't either. So regardless, if you're looking for something to read this Christmas and

00:26:47.960 new year season, uh, I have 200 signed copies of sovereignty sitting on my desk right now.

00:26:54.420 So if you're interested for yourself or someone you love head to store.orderaman.com and pick one up

00:27:00.580 again, that's store.orderaman.com paperback signed copies. I'll ship it out as quickly as possible.

00:27:06.900 Can't guarantee at this point, I'll get there by Christmas, but I'll do everything I can as well

00:27:10.580 as my son who fulfills orders in our merchandise store. So again, that's store.orderaman.com pick

00:27:17.560 up a copy of sovereignty. And also if you're interested in my upcoming book to be released

00:27:21.800 in the fall of 2022, head to orderaman.com and make sure to be signed up, uh, to be notified by email.

00:27:29.360 So that, that book is going to be out in fall of 2022. All right, guys, those are your marching

00:27:34.360 orders for now. Let's get back to it with Joe. Yeah. It's a, it's a wild time, man. It really,

00:27:40.220 you will that, but that goes back to what you were saying and what we were talking about with,

00:27:43.600 you know, the school wanting, wanting our kids 24 seven, you know, they want to give out these

00:27:47.720 degrees and these credentials, which are basically appeals to authority that I don't recognize.

00:27:52.620 You know, like I don't, if a doctor can't run two miles and he's asking you, I can't acknowledge

00:27:57.920 him as a health expert. You know, you see some of these health ministers in foreign countries

00:28:01.840 and there's some of the most disgusting, uh, unhealthy people that you'd ever seen. It's 0.55

00:28:06.620 like, this is the person that we want to have us giving health advice.

00:28:10.920 Well, I'll even go one further. I don't know if you remember this or not, but I was saying

00:28:14.100 this earlier today. I was saying, um, if you're on social media and you're taking a stand on

00:28:21.260 something, even you or I, you're taking a stand on something you really need to look at. We all

00:28:26.240 need to look in the mirror and say, do we really know what we're talking about? Because our species

00:28:31.100 just like you and I in the 1960s and seventies was recommending baby, baby oil and mirrors and laying

00:28:40.360 in sun. It was recommending Marlboro cigarettes. It was recommending powdered baby food over breast 0.59

00:28:47.460 milk. Like we are a bunch of idiots, you know? Like, so, so to your point, um, doctors overweight, 1.00

00:28:58.920 smoking, giving it like, we got to get our shit together. 0.99

00:29:04.020 Well, one, so one of the things that you talk about in the book is this concept that discipline 0.99

00:29:08.520 breeds responsibility. And I think there's a direct correlation, but I'd love for you to talk

00:29:13.840 about that because I think when generally when people look at discipline, they think of, Oh,

00:29:18.120 I have to get up at five. I have to do this thing. I don't want to do. And also they don't look at

00:29:23.820 responsibility as something all that significant either. But I look at it and think, well,

00:29:28.000 responsibility gives you meaning, right? As a father, I'm responsible for my four children.

00:29:32.600 That gives me meaning and purpose as a business owner. I'm responsible for running this efficiently

00:29:38.300 and effectively. So I can continue to serve my clients and those people who are tuned into what

00:29:41.820 we're doing. I find meaning in that, but I think generally people have some negative connotation

00:29:46.600 about both discipline and responsibility. You know why? Because of what I said earlier,

00:29:52.800 we, we like to avoid, um, anything uncomfortable at all costs. Discipline is uncomfortable.

00:29:59.280 Responsibility is uncomfortable. You're in charge of something or someone when you're responsible,

00:30:03.940 right? If you're disciplined, you're getting up every, whatever those things are you're disciplined

00:30:09.000 about, you're on it. You're not taking the cookie. You're not taking the easy way. And, um,

00:30:16.280 I don't know. I found that when I got more organized and more disciplined, I became a lot

00:30:21.840 more responsible, not only, um, for myself, not only being more responsible as you, me, but,

00:30:27.760 but for those around me, for my business, like you suggested. And, um, well, how do I get more

00:30:33.640 disciplined, Joe? How do I, how do I get more? Well, it starts just what's starting. Just take

00:30:38.980 that first step. Like, and you don't have to, you don't have to, um, take on the whole world

00:30:43.880 at once. If we're talking about fitness or early mornings, it could just be like, Hey,

00:30:48.600 I'm going to walk a quarter mile every morning at five, whatever the thing is. And then tell

00:30:54.100 everybody, you know, that you're going to do it and make sure you post that picture every day that

00:31:00.200 you did it. Because if you tell everybody and you're held accountable just by, just because

00:31:06.500 you'd be embarrassed if you don't do it right, you've told everybody. Um, and then you start

00:31:11.100 narrating that that's who you are rather than how many people, um, do you know that? Well,

00:31:17.920 I'm not like that. I don't wake up early. Again, that's just a cop-out. That's just, well,

00:31:23.980 stop saying that. Start saying that this is who you are instead of that is who you are.

00:31:28.700 And if you do that and you start to become more disciplined, well, you gain momentum.

00:31:33.520 And then before you know it, you're disciplined in many areas of your life. And before you know

00:31:37.140 it, people are looking up to you and they're following you. And then you're feeling responsible

00:31:41.120 for them. I feel responsible for the Spartan community around the globe. I feel responsible 1.00

00:31:47.540 to motivate them, to get them going. Like, and then I really have to be disciplined about who I am

00:31:54.260 and what I do because that's the persona. That's the job I took on. I mean, I think about Shackleton,

00:32:00.060 right? That great story that Explorer who goes out and gets stuck in the ice in his boat for two

00:32:08.420 years with his men, two years, they're stuck in the ice. He does not lose a man. Talk about discipline.

00:32:16.140 Talk about being responsible. He then throws on his pack with one of the guys and they fight their

00:32:23.580 way out. They hike out. They don't know if they're going to make it or not so that they can go get

00:32:27.800 help after two years of being stuck. And they go and they bring somebody back and they rescue the

00:32:32.840 whole crew. Again, they don't lose a man. Still to today, still to today, no one has been able to do

00:32:39.900 what he did, that route. Even with the most advanced gear, even with the most advanced radio

00:32:45.620 equipment, no one has been able to recreate that, what he did. That's such, man, that book is so

00:32:52.260 great. So, I read that. Well, I read your recommendation before I did the Agogi. I read

00:32:56.860 the book and I was blown away with it. And then to your point, when I went and did that Agogi, I had,

00:33:01.900 if I remember correctly, I had, I told, or 15 guys said, yes, they were going to do it with me.

00:33:11.960 10 of them showed up, which I thought was actually pretty good numbers. I was like,

00:33:16.100 if two thirds, I thought it was going to be less than that. And then I think four of us finished it.

00:33:22.660 And I, but I told everybody, and I think I had like 10,000 people in our Facebook group. And I told

00:33:28.400 them I'm going to do this thing. And there are moments I'm like, I'm, I'm done. I'm going to,

00:33:32.760 I'm done. I'm not doing this. And then I remembered, Oh shit. I'm going to have to tell

00:33:37.200 those 10,000 people. I just told I was going to do this, that I came back and didn't do it.

00:33:41.480 But even more than that, it was my kids that I'd have to look my kids in the eye and say, Hey,

00:33:46.300 sorry, guys, dad told you he was going to get 60 hours. And I only did, you know, 43. Sorry.

00:33:52.580 No way was that happening. None at all.

00:33:54.780 But, and there's nothing embarrassing about admitting that that's the reason you hung in

00:33:59.840 there because that's, that's the reason I hang, we all hang in when, look, we're not all out there

00:34:06.720 on Shackleton ship where if you give up, you die. Right. It's pretty easy to give up on the stuff

00:34:12.400 we're talking about. There's no real consequence, but, but if the consequence is embarrassing,

00:34:18.660 if the consequence is to your point that the kids look up to their dad in a different way,

00:34:22.980 then it, then it keeps you on track. It keeps you from, from tapping out. I am. I would love it.

00:34:30.060 If you'd be willing, I would love it to round up a big crew, even though we might not have room,

00:34:37.220 I'll figure it out. A big crew for death race this year. Why don't you round, why don't you become the

00:34:42.800 leader? I'm going to throw this on your lap. I apologize. You did this to me last time. So I

00:34:47.540 figured it was coming. You become the leader. You're coming to death race on the farm this summer.

00:34:55.720 It's all, it's no charge. It's all on me. I'll give you, I'll give you 20 spots.

00:35:01.400 And just see, it'll be an interesting experiment. Just see if you can get 20 people to commit to

00:35:09.120 something like they've got enough time to train. You could even tell them by the way,

00:35:13.480 they only have to do a third of it. They don't even have to finish the whole thing. Just a third.

00:35:18.760 And see, and see if I can get those 20 guys. I'll see what I can do on that.

00:35:22.020 Yeah. See what you can do. 20 guys. It's on me. I'll feed you. I'll take care of you. I'll even

00:35:27.420 help them get through a third. All they got to do is a third. And, and, and we could make a big

00:35:31.800 announcement. They got through a third of it. All right. I'll see what we can do on that.

00:35:36.840 Yeah. But it, you know, it leads me to think about the other thing is, um, this concept of

00:35:43.180 resilience. Cause I know you've talked about that. And, um, it's interesting as I think about like

00:35:48.500 the death race or the Agogi or even just, you know, a Spartan race, a sprint, let's say, for example,

00:35:53.000 we've, we've bastardized, I think is the word you use the, the term resilience and, you know,

00:35:59.100 everything is resilience. Now every, everything is tough. Like, Oh, you went and, you know, did this,

00:36:03.900 uh, this workout, Oh, you're resilient. You're tough. Well, are you, I don't know if that's the

00:36:08.120 measurement of it. And so you say true resilience. So what do you mean by that? When you say that?

00:36:12.980 Well, I, when I think about resilience, it's more than just standing there and taking a pounding

00:36:17.220 and, you know, Shackleton was truly resilient. Uh, Sir Edmund Hillary's truly resilient. If you

00:36:24.420 haven't watched yet, there's a show called 14 peaks that documents, um, uh, a Gurkha, a Gurkha that

00:36:32.540 became part of the SAS is my understanding. And then went out to attack the 14 highest peaks,

00:36:38.200 um, in the world and did it in seven months. The previous record was 16 years. So it's pretty

00:36:45.860 unbelievable. True resilience. This guy is tough as nails. It's, it's pretty, pretty epic. I made my

00:36:51.360 kids watch it actually this weekend. So, so it's the ability to take the pounding, right. And, and

00:36:57.160 not quit when the easy way out is to quit, but it's also, and this is really important. It's also

00:37:02.520 this ability to pivot and to bend, uh, which is hard to do. And, and, and by the way, there's even

00:37:08.480 times when you should quit and people say, Oh, come on, Joe, I can't believe you're using the word

00:37:14.020 quit. Well, in the example of climbing a mountain, right? Like let's talk about Everest. Um, you,

00:37:21.160 you and I are, let's just say, um, you let's say I have no children and you have children.

00:37:26.560 And let's say your goal in life is to be the greatest family, man, greatest dad that ever

00:37:30.420 lived. My goal in life is to be the greatest mountain climber that ever lived. And you and

00:37:34.440 I are both climbing Everest and we're a hundred feet. We're a hundred feet from the top and bad

00:37:39.620 weather rolls in. And so it's risky. It's 50, 50. We're going to make it back. Well, I would argue

00:37:45.240 since your, your core values are to be the greatest dad and greatest family, man, you should

00:37:51.180 not take that risk. Right. Me, on the other hand, I got my one window to set the world record

00:37:57.380 mountain climbing. That's my lifelong dream. I probably go for it. So, so now the, now the trick

00:38:04.780 here, the trick here is, uh, because I've done this, I've had 10 million people do some Spartan

00:38:11.220 race or Tough Mudder around the world, right? 10, 10 million people. I've talked to 10,000

00:38:15.300 myself one-on-one. The trick is your mind going back to what we said earlier, where the, our

00:38:22.840 species avoids discomfort. Your mind is going to come up with bullshit excuses at that moment 0.99

00:38:30.000 as to why we should quit. And you really have to pressure, uh, pressure test it because I've 0.99

00:38:36.020 had people say, Oh, you know what? It's just not important to me anymore. The fuck?

00:38:41.200 Are you talking about? It's not important to you anymore. You trained for eight months to come 1.00

00:38:46.020 here and do this thing. All you're feeling is a little difficult. You're cold, tired, and hungry

00:38:51.440 right now. What are you talking about? If your mind says, look, it's, it's risky. The bad weather

00:38:57.560 is rolling in. I, I, I promised my wife, okay, that makes sense. But all the other excuses I've heard

00:39:03.480 over the last 22 years of doing this, 99% of them are BS. And that's the true resilience test is,

00:39:10.800 is, is, is, can you fight those crickets in your head when they're giving you a BS excuse

00:39:17.800 as to why you should, you should quit wrestling? You should give up, right. You haven't won

00:39:23.240 a match in two years. And so what, so what you got to lose a lot in life before. I mean,

00:39:29.200 Thomas Edison couldn't figure out how to make a light bulb for 992 times.

00:39:35.460 How do you, how do you filter that though? Because in the moment it does feel really,

00:39:40.100 it's feels very real, obviously. Right. So, you know, I'm thinking about this ago. He is like,

00:39:45.180 okay, there was time. I remember. And even since things that I've done where I'm like,

00:39:49.080 why the hell am I doing this? And I can't really come up with any good reason.

00:39:52.600 Well, well, you got to write it down. You got to write it down and you got to laminate it again.

00:39:56.800 I'm doing this for 20. I'm doing this for other people for 22 years, go back 30 years. I've been

00:40:02.420 doing this stuff myself too. Right. So you got to write it down. It's got to be almost laminated

00:40:07.340 somewhere on your person, somewhere in your body that you've got. What's the reason I'm doing this?

00:40:13.420 Right. What are my true values in life? Like you've got these three statements there under what

00:40:19.940 circumstances would I ever quit? And, and if there's a moment, and by the way, there's going

00:40:25.860 to be like 11,000 moments in a death race or something hard, right? You just have to pull

00:40:31.700 out that laminated piece of paper when your mind is not working clearly and just read it and get back

00:40:37.880 and put your head down. Now I tell all these knuckleheads, I say, do you trust me? Just listen 0.87

00:40:44.380 to what, like I have, I've been sleeping. I've been fed. My mind is clear. I don't have a dog

00:40:51.220 in the fight. What I say right now will help you get through this. And, and eight out of 10 times

00:40:56.780 people will listen to me and put one foot in front of the other and continue on. But two out of 10 times

00:41:01.120 they, they turn around, they quit and they regret it. I've, I've never had one instance. I've never had

00:41:08.460 one instance where somebody didn't quit and then reach out to me, whether it's a day, a month,

00:41:14.260 a year later and say, Oh my God, I'm so pissed. I should have listened to you. Right. Yeah. Because

00:41:18.600 again, by the way, in the stuff you and I are talking about, it's never life and death. It's not

00:41:23.820 like the example I gave on Mount Everest where there's a chance you don't come back. Right. This is,

00:41:28.740 this is, this is just hard. And, and, and by the way, if we didn't get to a point in doing these

00:41:36.460 hard things that we manufacture, these, these races, this crazy stuff, if we didn't get to hard 1.00

00:41:41.160 where we, where we want to quit, then, then we're doing something wrong. That's the whole reason we

00:41:45.760 signed. We want to go to that place. Well, it changes you, right? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's,

00:41:50.640 it's hard to know in this relative ease of modernity, how tough you actually are. Like everybody

00:41:57.640 talks a big game, like, Oh, you know, if I got into this altercation here, here's what I would do.

00:42:03.180 Or if I ever ran a marathon, here's how fast I would do it. Or if I've ever went and did this

00:42:07.340 thing, here's how I would deal with it. Would you, that sounds really good when you're an air

00:42:11.680 conditioned house with all your creature comforts and your amenities and you're full and slept and

00:42:17.400 everything else, but you don't actually really know until you're 60% into the thing. You're cold,

00:42:24.360 tired, hungry, miserable, and your mind is playing tricks on you.

00:42:28.360 There's no, there's no doubt about it. You've got, let's use the term. Let's agree on the term.

00:42:31.520 You've got to pressure test. Um, we all need, we all need, and by the way, pressure testing

00:42:37.080 yourself once is not enough. I do it on a, on a micro scale every morning when I get in that damn 0.99

00:42:43.120 cold shower. Um, it sucks, man. It never, it never gets better, you know? 1.00

00:42:50.160 Yeah, I do. I do know. But I also like what you're talking about with this one foot in front of the

00:42:54.420 other and the whole concept that it's been helpful to me anyways is, you know, you can make that decision

00:42:59.300 to quit after 10 more steps and you, or after two more minutes, like anybody can do anything for

00:43:05.020 two minutes, do it for two minutes and then make another determination as to whether or not you want

00:43:08.620 to quit. Yeah. I remember I had, um, I, we, you know, we have a lot of people that come up to the

00:43:13.780 farm. They want to change their life. And so the first few days we just torture them just to get rid

00:43:18.300 of them because most people, it's just a waste of our time. Um, but there was this one guy who had a

00:43:23.020 drinking issue and he just, he just wanted to clean up his life and he stayed and he stayed and

00:43:28.140 he stayed. And then I put him through the death race. And, um, it was the year that I put together

00:43:32.760 that barbed wire crawl that was 26.2 miles. And he was probably, I don't know, six or seven miles in.

00:43:38.720 It was a hot day. It was hard. It would have been hard for you or I to stick it out. And it was,

00:43:42.960 it was a tough day. And, um, and he was just broken. He wasn't going to continue. And I tried to talk

00:43:48.420 to him and I said, listen, I just need you to do another loop. Just do one more loop.

00:43:53.340 And he did one more loop. Now I need you to do one more. And I eventually, eventually tapped out

00:43:59.400 only a year later to come back and say, Hey, listen, I should have, because you could always

00:44:03.500 do it. You could always do the extra two minutes. You could always go more. And, and I've had so many

00:44:08.620 examples where, you know, a girlfriend or a parent or somebody, Oh my God, Joe, you're putting that

00:44:13.860 person in danger. And it's like, are they pissing blood? Hmm. They're not pissing blood. They keep

00:44:20.560 going. What are you talking about? Well, but, but there's another side of this, you know, you're

00:44:25.980 putting these people in danger. Okay. Well consider the alternative. I would suggest that the alternative

00:44:31.220 doing nothing, getting fat, being lazy, being mediocre, not getting the promotion, not leading

00:44:36.140 your family is significantly more dangerous than these other things that you're talking about.

00:44:40.440 Choose your hard. Right. I love that sentence. Yes. Right.

00:44:42.980 Choose your hard. Right. You want the hard right now, or do you want that hard to drag out for 80

00:44:48.120 years? Right. So I'm, I'm, listen, obviously I'm with you. I live this all day, every day. I'm,

00:44:56.160 I fight, I fight everybody in my family on it. I fight everybody, my in-law, everybody,

00:45:01.640 my company, everybody, like, yeah, I get it. Well, Joe, I want to be respectful of your time. I know

00:45:07.120 you got a hard stop, but guys like go pick up a copy of the book. It's called 10 rules for

00:45:11.200 resilience, mental toughness for families. I got a copy right here. Some of the other things that

00:45:15.580 he goes through is, uh, you can't until you can earn, not given into the wild, raw courage. We

00:45:21.240 talked about things like discipline breeds responsibility and living your values, but

00:45:25.240 such a tremendous book, a lot of great information here, Joe. I appreciate all that you do. Sometimes

00:45:30.260 when I'm in the midst of it, I don't appreciate it, but afterwards I sure as hell do. And, uh, glad we

00:45:34.700 could have this conversation. Yeah. Anybody, by the way, thanks for having me. Anybody want,

00:45:39.000 doesn't want to read the book, just get it and hold it over your head with your family for like

00:45:42.680 one hour, just straight arms over there. There you go. I like that. I like it. All right,

00:45:50.320 brother. Well, thanks a lot. I appreciate you keep fighting the good fight and, uh, we got your back

00:45:54.480 over here. Thank you. Thanks for having me. All right, gentlemen, there you go. My conversation

00:46:00.040 with the one and only Joe DeSena. I hope you enjoyed that one. Joe and I always have some great

00:46:03.700 conversations and he always challenges me. I knew that was coming. So we're going to see if, uh,

00:46:08.120 I can step up to the challenge depending on the schedule and work some of that out. Uh,

00:46:12.000 so stay tuned on that with the death race. Um, outside of that, make sure you pick up a copy of

00:46:17.220 his book, 10 rules for resilience. Uh, he talks a lot about how to build resilience in yourself,

00:46:22.340 of course, but also, uh, with your family, with your kids, your wife, and you are the leader of

00:46:28.220 your family. You're the patriarch. And so building in resilience and teaching your family how to be more

00:46:32.540 resilient is obviously going to be something that is going to serve them throughout the rest of their

00:46:36.880 lives. So follow him on the socials, follow me on the socials, pick up a copy of 10 rules for

00:46:41.300 resilience, pick up a copy of sovereignty, sign copies there. Uh, and then take a screenshot right

00:46:46.600 now before you move on to the next podcast or book or whatever it is you're going to be doing,

00:46:51.140 take a screenshot, post it up, share it up. That goes a long way. We get shadow banned and I'm not

00:46:55.460 going to complain too bad about that. It's just part of the deal. Uh, but we do get throttled on our

00:46:59.500 accounts. And so the best way to overcome some of that is to have this grassroots movement of you

00:47:05.600 guys sharing what we're doing. And the reason is, is because when more and more men step up to the

00:47:10.720 plate and do what they're supposed to be doing as men, then everybody's life is better. Your

00:47:15.760 families, your communities, your employees, your employer, everybody's life is better. As, as it said,

00:47:22.020 the rising tide lifts all boats. So if you have something to share, share it. And I ask that you, uh,

00:47:28.100 do your part in sharing this. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for the, ask me anything with

00:47:32.440 my cohost, Kip Sorensen until then go out there, take action and become a man. You are meant to be.

00:47:38.760 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

00:47:43.300 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - December 21, 2021

JOE DE SENA ｜ Rules for Resilience

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