Order of Man - JOHN DAILEY ｜ Becoming a Tough, Rugged B＊stard

00:00:00.000 What does it take to be a tough, rugged bastard, and is it something a man should strive to become? 0.98

00:00:06.040 My guest today is a retired Marine, and after spending 20 plus years in special operations in 0.97

00:00:11.860 the Marine Corps, has gone on to lead training for all Marine Raiders after being disbanded after

00:00:17.600 World War II, and developing many of the systems and leadership protocols for some of the most

00:00:22.900 elite fighting members of our modern-day military. His name is John Daly, and today we talk about the

00:00:30.880 future of combat, modern-day enlistment challenges for the U.S. military, where mental toughness comes

00:00:37.240 from and how to develop it, the issues with what he calls moral injury as it relates to PTSD, the rules

00:00:43.700 of combat, standard operating procedures, and rules of engagement that hinder our efficacy, and how and 0.98

00:00:50.340 why every man needs to become a tough, rugged bastard. 0.91

00:00:54.580 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your 0.99

00:00:59.640 own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily

00:01:05.620 deterred or defeated. Rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who

00:01:13.060 you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:20.340 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order Man podcast. My name is Ryan Michler. I'm your host and the

00:01:26.580 founder of this movement. Welcome here. Welcome back. It is apparent that we need more men to step

00:01:32.880 up in the walls of their home and the boundaries of their cities and communities. We are with a

00:01:39.780 complete void of manliness and masculinity, and it's up to each and every one of us to step up,

00:01:46.600 to train, to educate, to lead, to inspire more men to become more manly so that we can push this

00:01:53.500 nation and this country in the right direction. I've got a very, very powerful conversation with

00:01:58.560 a very qualified man. His name is John Daly. He spent a lot of years in the special operations

00:02:04.720 community. But before that, I want to get to another aspect, I think, of not only being a man,

00:02:11.420 but helping this country get back up on its feet. And part of that is American manufacturing.

00:02:18.060 There's a lot of great companies that are doing things in American manufacturing, but one of the

00:02:23.580 companies that I've partnered with and are good friends of mine is Montana Knife Company. Guys,

00:02:29.740 if you're looking for a great knife, and I believe every man needs a good, high-quality knife,

00:02:33.780 whether it's in the kitchen, out in the field when he's hunting, or just an everyday carry,

00:02:40.860 I want you to look no further than Montana Knife Company. They've got great American-made knives

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00:02:50.840 So if you're interested in picking up a knife from my good friends and American manufacturers,

00:02:55.420 Montana Knife Company, look no further, excuse me, than, again, montananifecompany.com,

00:03:00.280 and use the code ORDEROMAN, ORDEROMAN, all one word at checkout, to save some money when you do.

00:03:07.180 Again, montananifecompany.com, use the code ORDEROMAN. All right, let me introduce you to

00:03:13.420 my guest. His name is John Daly. He is a retired Marine, but not only that, he's the author of

00:03:19.500 Tough, Rugged Bastards, and also the training and education director of the Marine Raider Training

00:03:25.680 Center. After 20 years in the Marine Corps, John is taking his training,

00:03:30.280 and expertise with the elite special forces, marine recons, and teaching everyday civilians like

00:03:37.120 you, like me, what it takes to be tough, rugged, and capable of what most men can't even comprehend.

00:03:46.000 After 9-11, John was tapped to resurrect the Marine Raider team after being decommissioned at

00:03:51.400 the end of World War II. He's since helped turn this unit into one of the predominant elite

00:03:57.140 fighting forces in the world today. Enjoy this one, guys.

00:04:02.560 John, welcome to the ORDEROMAN podcast. Good to see you today.

00:04:05.900 Thanks, Ryan. Happy to be here.

00:04:08.140 Yeah, I was actually really intrigued. I don't think we had connected before,

00:04:11.940 but your team reached out to me, and I was really intrigued, frankly, with the title of the book,

00:04:15.980 Tough, Rugged Bastards. And then also, I saw a quote about not only being tough, rugged bastards, 0.98

00:04:22.520 but having strong backs and hard feet. I'm like, man, if there's somebody that needs to be on this 0.94

00:04:27.660 podcast, it's a person who speaks with that kind of verbiage.

00:04:31.520 Yeah, that was spoken to me by our boss, but it was a, you know, kind of a mantra that I took on

00:04:41.460 after that, that that's really what sets, you know, a man apart, you know, somebody that can 0.96

00:04:46.760 be counted on to be a tough, rugged bastard when necessary. But, and a large part of that is less, 0.86

00:04:53.940 I think, that having, you know, strong back and hard feet and the willingness to earn the strong back

00:04:59.540 and hard feet. Yeah. I think everybody probably has a pretty good understanding of what you mean,

00:05:05.200 or what, what your command meant by strong back, but what do you mean by hard feet? What does that,

00:05:10.380 what does that mean? Gotcha. You know, most of what forced reconnaissance does is long range

00:05:18.940 reconnaissance behind enemy lines, or at least pre 9-11, you know, it, it turned into a lot of

00:05:26.100 the, the special operations knock down doors and, and grab bad guys out of bed. But, uh, you know,

00:05:33.240 the ability to move for, for long times over rugged terrain on your feet, you know, was really the,

00:05:38.560 the mark. Uh, so we did a lot of rucking. Um, and, you know, I'm still in my, you know, now in my 50s,

00:05:45.880 you know, I think that's one of the best ways for, you know, to gain and maintain overall,

00:05:49.500 you know, strength and, and durability is, uh, is rucking. But that was something we, we just,

00:05:56.240 we did a lot of by nature of the job. Yeah. So how did that change? You said pre 9-11 and

00:06:01.520 obviously I think a lot of what your work and, and even your current work today, uh, it was a

00:06:07.020 pivotal moment during 9-11. So what changed specifically for the way that, uh, uh, Marine

00:06:13.340 Recons, uh, approached their line of work? Well, I think there was, uh, there's always two 1.00

00:06:19.900 missions that, that Force Recon participated in. Behind enemy lines, usually, uh, foot patrolling,

00:06:28.600 gathering information, um, which, you know, meant infiltration by parachute or by, uh, subsurface,

00:06:35.600 uh, infiltration, and then kind of moving to remain unseen and gather information. And then, uh,

00:06:41.840 the other side of that was direct action. So, you know, showing up at a bad guy's house,

00:06:47.540 blowing the door off and, and coming in and grabbing them. Uh, after 9-11, it, it seemed

00:06:53.220 there was a lot more of the latter across the special operations community. There was, uh,

00:06:57.920 there was still some reconnaissance and, uh, behind enemy lines, you know, foot movement. It became,

00:07:03.180 you know, operating in the Middle East, more challenging, obviously to, you know, Afghanistan

00:07:07.840 was a great example. It was just really, really hard to, uh, operate it in an area for an extended

00:07:13.900 duration without being compromised as, you know, we saw numerous occasions, uh, you know, and the,

00:07:20.300 the SEALs, you know, found out and, uh, and numerous, you know, special operations units found it's,

00:07:27.040 you know, in the, a close knit tribal area, you know, where people know, you know, have lived for

00:07:31.760 centuries. They know every rock, they know, you know, which way the wind blows. So your ability to,

00:07:36.720 to get in close, uh, is, is limited in duration. So there was a lot of those missions and the,

00:07:42.480 the, the advent of much better UAS, you know, took a lot of that, that role, you know, loitering

00:07:49.260 UAS, the ability for, uh, aerial surveillance to, to answer some of those questions. There will

00:07:55.660 always be a necessity for guys on the ground to get eyes on objectives and, and, and do things. But,

00:08:01.260 uh, it certainly became more challenging. And we found that the role across special operations

00:08:06.300 turn more to, to direct action. So UAS, is that, I'm assuming that's, what is it? Unmanned aerial

00:08:13.000 surveillance? Is that, is that? Yeah. UAV, uh, unmanned aerial vehicles. Yeah. Just, uh, got it.

00:08:18.200 So those could, you know, loiter over an area for extended periods and, and report on, on what was,

00:08:23.820 what was happening. And that, like I said, didn't eliminate the need for people with eyes on the,

00:08:28.640 the target, but it certainly reduced the requirement for that. Yeah. I mean,

00:08:34.440 that makes sense. I think it probably keeps our, our, uh, warriors a little bit safer unless

00:08:39.100 they're now doing a new mission, which might even be more dangerous, which is kicking in doors. And

00:08:44.560 you know, these, uh, these combat type roles, as opposed to reconnaissance or surveillance and

00:08:50.260 intel missions. Yeah. I think one of the things you mentioned is with seals. I think the one that

00:08:55.780 comes to mind for everybody would be probably the, uh, lone survivor, uh, Marcus Luttrell story is,

00:09:02.040 is that, is that what you're referring to? Yeah. Yeah. And that was a perfect example of, uh, and

00:09:08.860 that happened, you know, multiple times that was obviously kind of the most famous, but, uh, you

00:09:15.180 know, uh, and it was, it was really when I first got into reconnaissance, we did a very challenging

00:09:23.640 physical selection, but at the end of it, there was, uh, they ask you questions. And the question that

00:09:28.760 they ended with was you're leading a team, you're in the middle of the desert and a shepherd walks up

00:09:34.400 on you, you know, what do you do? You know, you kill them and, and continue the mission. Do you, 0.96

00:09:39.760 uh, you know, tie them up and, and try to take them with you? Do you let them go? And, uh, and that's

00:09:46.060 always, uh, uh, you know, challenging moral and ethical question, you know, what do you do? Um,

00:09:50.800 and in, in this case, that's exactly what happened, you know, to, to those guys and the decision to,

00:09:56.720 and it's, uh, you know, it's not an easy decision to decide to, to just kill a guy who's, who's trying

00:10:03.600 to, you know, make a living, raise his, uh, sheep and feed his family. Um, and, you know, so I don't

00:10:09.240 fault them for that decision, but it's, it's obviously one that in that situation had, you know,

00:10:13.840 pretty significant consequences. Yeah. I mean, we, we tend to, uh, as civilians look at it and, uh,

00:10:19.820 make light of a scenario like that. It's easy to say, Oh, you should have just killed the guy, 0.87

00:10:24.100 but that's, that's a human being, you know, that's, that's an individual, like you said, 0.92

00:10:28.060 trying to make a living. He's not involved in, um, in, in, in any of these nefarious actions

00:10:33.260 necessarily, but also, you know, from the outside. And I think obviously I, I think you would agree.

00:10:38.820 I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it's gotta be mission first. And unfortunately there is

00:10:43.660 some civilian collateral damage when it comes to war and combat.

00:10:47.220 Yeah, there is. That's a, I mean, that's a tough one. And that's why they asked that question.

00:10:53.080 And there was not really a right answer or wrong answer, but the, you know, they wanted to see how

00:10:57.000 you, you know, your thought process, how you, you made decisions. And I, what would you say to that,

00:11:03.820 John? Yeah. Well, what I did say to that, and apparently it was, it was good enough of an answer

00:11:08.440 was, you know, I don't know, you know, I don't have enough information, you know, I'd have to,

00:11:12.100 you know, how critical was the mission, how, uh, you know, how likely was he to be able to get

00:11:19.100 back and notify? Cause you have to assume that, you know, if somebody gets back, they're going to

00:11:23.360 tell the story. Hey, I, uh, of course, of course, a bunch of, a bunch of foreigners just snatched me 1.00

00:11:28.960 up. Um, you know, how readily would we be able to get out of the area? You know, there's just,

00:11:36.320 you know, there were so many things that are unknown in that situation and then the situation

00:11:41.020 they were in, you know, their ability to get away quickly was, uh, was obviously not, you know,

00:11:47.920 to get extracted, wasn't, uh, obviously didn't enable them to make that decision and get out of

00:11:54.700 the area. So it's, you know, not critiquing, you know, the decisions made on the ground cause

00:12:00.120 that's always a bad idea, but it's, uh, it's a, uh, it's always a very challenging,

00:12:05.840 uh, you know, endeavor, all right. Uh, to, to weigh, you know, because, you know, one of the,

00:12:13.980 the things I think the U S military that, that hopefully sets us apart is that we do operate

00:12:18.840 with a, a code of, of moral ethics, you know, that we, we still need to, we need to do what's

00:12:24.940 right. You know, we can't stoop to the enemy's level. If we do, then we're really not, you know,

00:12:29.820 upholding the values that we profess to be fighting for in the first place. So it's, uh, it's tough.

00:12:35.840 Uh, you know, tough situation. It is tough because there's, uh, rules of engagement.

00:12:41.520 There's standard operating procedures that quite, quite literally, um, hamper our ability to be an

00:12:47.840 effective fighting force. I was in the military too. And, uh, some of the rules of engagement that

00:12:52.660 we were to adhere to limited our ability to neutralize very real and serious threats to

00:12:59.320 our own troops. Uh, and I was in Iraq in 2005 and 2006, and it was very frustrating to watch

00:13:05.640 that we had to fight with one hand tied behind our back when we could have unleashed the full,

00:13:11.860 uh, the might of the, the United States military. We just weren't able to because of what you're

00:13:18.520 talking about right now. Yeah. And there's, there's definitely, um, you know, a lot of times

00:13:24.960 they go too far rules of engagement and, uh, restrictions that, uh, you know, made by

00:13:31.400 people who are, you know, well away from, from anything like combat. I do think that, uh, and

00:13:37.300 I've thought a lot about this over time that, you know, the, the law of war, the things that

00:13:42.680 we're supposed to uphold, you know, are partially there to make sure that we return, you know, or,

00:13:51.240 or fighting men and women return with, uh, with honor, you know, having fought honorably and are

00:13:56.500 not, uh, one of the big things I think we're, we're seeing now with, with some veterans is it's,

00:14:02.540 uh, I don't know how long the term's been around, but, uh, moral injury, you know, they did things

00:14:08.500 in combat that, that now they're, they're having to pay the price for. And that's, uh,

00:14:12.660 uh, mentally and emotionally. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, when you, uh,

00:14:18.620 so, so a lot of, you know, what the law of war is intended to do is to make sure that you're,

00:14:23.980 yeah, you're going to go out and kill people, but, uh, you know, let's do it in a way that's

00:14:28.860 consistent with, with what we believe is, uh, as Americans. Um, and, uh, uh, you know, 0.96

00:14:36.400 if you do that, we're following the rules, then, you know, later on, you know, we're not going to

00:14:41.100 be bothered by, or, or bothered less at least by the idea that you did something wrong, right? That,

00:14:47.600 that, uh, you know, you killed somebody that wasn't supposed to be killed or didn't need to be killed.

00:14:51.480 Um, so I think it's, and I, I think there are, you know, there's, there's obviously a huge uptick in,

00:14:59.240 you know, veteran suicides and veteran, uh, you know, PTSD and coping issues. A lot of things that,

00:15:06.040 uh, maybe didn't exist to a greatest extent, um, you know, in other wars, uh, or, or certainly

00:15:13.380 Warren has talked about in other wars, but, uh, you know, it certainly seems, I think there's a lot

00:15:18.420 of contributing factors, but, you know, one of the things I always tried to instill as a leader 0.97

00:15:22.820 in my guys was, you know, we'll, you know, we'll fight hard as fuck, right? You know, no, 0.96

00:15:28.560 we're not pulling any punches, but we're, we're going to, we're not going to break rules and break the

00:15:33.860 law, uh, to do it because, uh, I don't want somebody that, you know, worked for me, you know,

00:15:40.360 10 years from now, you know, realizing that, Hey, I can't live with, with whatever it was that I did,

00:15:46.980 or, you know, if that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, of course you, you said that maybe it's more

00:15:52.000 prevalent than it has been in past com, uh, conflict and combat. I, but you also said maybe

00:15:57.120 it's just more reported. I, I think, I think that's probably more of the answer is that we're just

00:16:02.400 more aware of it now and more willing to talk about PTSD, for example, and some of these moral

00:16:07.480 dilemmas and moral injury, which I hadn't heard that term before you said it. Um, I don't think

00:16:12.280 it wasn't there before. I think it just wasn't appropriate maybe in the, in the time to talk

00:16:18.840 about it. We're, we're, we're different than we were, you know, 50, 60, 70 years ago.

00:16:23.060 Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, in World War I, like the, the disease or whatever was shell

00:16:29.700 shock, right? You got, uh, and, but that was really more of, uh, uh, just, uh, on an ability

00:16:37.440 to deal with the relentless shelling. Right. And most of those, those people were, you know,

00:16:43.200 if they were taken away from combat, like far away, they would never quite fully recover

00:16:49.960 and they would have like nervous issues. One of the interesting studies was those that were

00:16:54.200 pulled just far enough back off the front line to, to kind of recover a little bit, were able to go

00:17:00.520 back and, and were better off in the long run. Right. Because they didn't feel like they were

00:17:04.960 a coward. Right. They weren't being, you know, they weren't leaving the fight. Um, you know,

00:17:09.240 in Vietnam, um, you know, the, like the, the terms of, uh, uh, PTSD, that's kind of when that

00:17:17.980 first started, uh, really appearing the idea that, you know, guys were, people were living

00:17:25.300 with something after the fact. So I definitely think it's, it's a product of the times. I think

00:17:29.980 we're potentially more susceptible to it now for a, probably a myriad of, of reasons. Um, you know,

00:17:37.580 the, the suicide thing has gotten out of control. I mean, it, uh, you know, it's, you know, veterans

00:17:42.040 from, from other wars weren't killing themselves at the same rate. You know, there's, there's probably,

00:17:46.800 you know, I'm certainly not the, the guy to understand that, but, uh, uh, you know, I think

00:17:54.480 some of it was, nobody else has been in a war for 20 years. I mean, 20 years is a long, a long time

00:17:59.920 for a nation to be at war. Um, that's certainly a part of it. It's interesting to me though, because

00:18:04.520 I don't want to discount any, any of the, the combat, uh, or, or the, the horrors that our veterans

00:18:14.340 have seen, but I think our wars just from a factual perspective, if you look at the data

00:18:19.340 are less bloody, less catastrophic than they historically have been. I'm wondering why

00:18:26.280 we're committing suicide at rates that we weren't committing after world war one or world war two,

00:18:32.620 or some of these other engagements, uh, like we are modern wars. Do you think it's just the fact

00:18:36.920 that it's been going on for, you know, 20 years, uh, or, or is there something else at play?

00:18:42.620 Maybe some societal factors. Yeah, definitely. I think there's some societal factors. I think,

00:18:47.900 I mean, for like world war two, you know, yeah, it wasn't nearly as long, but you joined, you joined

00:18:54.400 for the duration, you know, world war one was that way. You know, you were, uh, you know, in the

00:18:59.060 Pacific cause, uh, uh, you know, a Marine in the Pacific or, uh, you know, a soldier in Europe,

00:19:04.060 you were in battle after battle after battle. So, yeah, you know, I think certainly the amount

00:19:10.000 of combat, uh, the, the, the, the amount of casualties, um, they have the inability to save

00:19:18.720 casualties. I mean, you know, we had it, you know, good, all things considered, you know,

00:19:24.540 when, when, you know, you were able to be in a, uh, level one trauma center, you know, within an hour,

00:19:31.200 right. That was kind of the standard in Iraq and Afghanistan. You could have top surgeons working on

00:19:36.020 you, you know, within an hour, the golden hour, they called it and they could save almost everybody.

00:19:40.360 Uh, you might lose a limb or whatever, but, uh, you know, world war two that I've, you know,

00:19:45.620 wasn't the case. Um, you know, even Vietnam wasn't, uh, the case. So I think, uh, I think a lot of it 1.00

00:19:52.880 societal, like that kind of had to do with, you know, world war two was recognized that kind of the

00:19:58.420 fate of the world is at stake. You know, I think, you know, Vietnam was, was obviously less of a

00:20:03.900 popular war and there was, there was less understanding of why we were fighting it. Um,

00:20:08.600 you know, and as it went on, there was obviously a lot of, uh, probably the sentiment among some

00:20:14.540 soldiers that were fighting it that, Hey, um, if we were dying for nothing, you know, what are we

00:20:20.080 even doing here? You know, I certainly think the, the G watch started, you know, with, uh, a really

00:20:26.660 solid purpose, right. Kind of retribution for the world trade center attacks. And, and, uh,

00:20:33.600 then, you know, over time, you know, people kind of had to start questioning, you know,

00:20:38.140 why is this continuing to go on? What are we doing? Um, and, you know, one of the absolutely

00:20:44.820 a lesson that was should have been learned in from Vietnam was that, you know, if you don't have a,

00:20:50.000 you know, the, the people will support a word with, it has a purpose, an end point, you know,

00:20:56.120 an end state, uh, our job is to do this, right. World War II. Yeah. What does winning a war actually

00:21:00.780 mean? Right. Yeah. What's the strategic aim of it? Right. Then World War II, we're going to stop

00:21:06.760 the Nazis. We're going to stop Japan. All right. That was, you know, once we had done that, it 0.95

00:21:10.100 became pretty clear, right. They said, Hey, all right, we'll, we'll surrender. We're not fighting

00:21:14.520 anymore. Um, you know, it's a, uh, a war on terror is, you know, kind of by definition, you know,

00:21:21.440 it's really never going to end because every, every day, every day it goes on, you're creating

00:21:27.220 more, you know, insurgents. All right. You know, you know, every, uh, sometimes I would think that

00:21:33.280 every, you know, we'd go into a house, grab a really shit, you know, a big shithead, uh, bomb 1.00

00:21:38.900 maker out of his bed. But, you know, his kids sitting there looking on like, yeah, well, we probably 1.00

00:21:43.820 made two more terrors today, you know, taking this one off the playing field. So it's, uh, it's tough.

00:21:50.220 I mean, it's big, hard problem, right. It's, uh, and I, not to, um, you know, I think it

00:21:56.880 was, it was absolutely a worthwhile cause, um, you know, and, and the, the Marine sailor

00:22:01.920 soldiers, airmen that, that, that fought, you know, for 20 years, uh, over that time

00:22:07.040 did, uh, a phenomenal job against, you know, almost, uh, unbeatable odds. Um, but it, uh,

00:22:15.580 yeah, you gotta, I certainly think that there are some people and that, that's,

00:22:20.220 leading to people having, you know, uh, kind of post-traumatic, uh, issues.

00:22:29.260 I, I, I'd never actually considered that. I, that is an interesting perspective is that,

00:22:34.260 you know, maybe the more purpose-driven, the more that a, that a soldier or warrior can connect,

00:22:40.040 uh, their assignment and their mission to something that's, you know, morally

00:22:45.780 sustainable or morally righteous that maybe they're able to cope better with the decisions

00:22:53.520 they've had to make. I, I do take a little bit of issue and I, and this is something I've had to

00:22:58.260 work through just as, as a veteran myself with, you know, what was it a worthy cause? And sometimes

00:23:03.140 when I say things like that, people get mad at me because they think that I'm also knocking

00:23:09.140 veterans who, to your point, and I agree, did a wonderful job with the mission, with the assignment

00:23:15.120 and with the, the, the assets they had at their disposal. I think those are two separate things.

00:23:21.180 And so I even, I questioned, like, was it, and they should be like, was that a righteous thing?

00:23:27.400 And also, yes, our warriors did a phenomenal job with what they were assigned to do.

00:23:33.380 So, yeah. And I, I think you, you, you know, if veterans won't make that statement, then it,

00:23:41.320 it makes it hard for, for anybody else, you know, civilian to make that statement. And, and,

00:23:46.620 you know, they, you know, one of the things that just frustrates me to no end is particularly

00:23:52.200 veterans who, you know, uh, you know, our, our job was to fight for the people's freedom,

00:23:58.440 right? The Americans freedom to do what the fuck they want, largely. And as long as it's not 0.96

00:24:02.460 hurting anybody else. And that freedom should absolutely include the freedom to, to say,

00:24:06.780 hey man, this war was, was stupid, right? Why are we doing this? Why are we wasting blood 1.00

00:24:11.220 and treasure on, uh, on something with, without a clear end state? So I think, you know, veterans,

00:24:17.060 we've got to, uh, you know, certainly have the obligation to, you know, speak our mind on,

00:24:25.700 on things like that. And absolutely, you know, one of the reasons that we were there allegedly was

00:24:30.840 to make sure that our fellow citizens, you know, regardless of what they were, were doing,

00:24:35.200 you know, the, uh, the milk still had to get delivered, you know, teach children still had

00:24:41.100 to get taught, you know, um, toilets had to get plumbed while we were fighting. So, you know,

00:24:48.300 I certainly don't fault anybody who is, who is, you know, doing the job of keeping America running

00:24:53.000 while we were, you know, off, off fighting. And I, I mean, I enjoyed myself most of the time,

00:24:58.680 you know, I, I had a, you know, there's one of the things that some, some people look at you weird

00:25:04.160 when you say, but there's, I mean, there's a lot about combat. That's fun. You know, there's, uh,

00:25:09.320 there's, it's, and it's, uh, the ability to test yourself kind of on the ultimate stage that,

00:25:15.380 that, uh, you know, it's, it can be addictive. All right. I mean, I think for a lot of people,

00:25:19.760 it, it became addictive. So what was your role prior to 9-11? Because it sounds like post 9-11,

00:25:28.260 you were handpicked and hand selected for some, some different duties and responsibilities in

00:25:34.500 creating a team that would address some of these modern, uh, conflicts that we were getting

00:25:40.580 ourselves involved with. What did that look like in that transition? What were you doing before? And

00:25:44.940 then what were you tasked with doing after the fact? Right. So I had been at all by 9-11,

00:25:52.900 I'd been in the Marine Corps for about 14 years. So I'd, you know, been around, uh, had missed out on

00:25:59.660 the, the Gulf War, uh, Somalia, you know, I hadn't, hadn't been involved in that. So really hadn't, uh,

00:26:05.920 yeah, that experienced combat. I had been in force reconnaissance for at that point,

00:26:13.880 probably close to 10 years, most of my career. Um, and that's, you know, kind of the pinnacle of,

00:26:20.260 of at the time, what there was to do in the Marine Corps and in my eyes anyway, as a, as an infantryman.

00:26:27.060 Is that something different than a, than a raider, a Marine raider? Is that something different?

00:26:30.480 It is. So the, the raiders didn't exist yet. Um, so it's. Got it. Okay. So in, in 1987,

00:26:39.560 the SOCOM was formed, the U.S. Special Operations Command, and it was an output or an outcome from the

00:26:47.560 failed attempt to rescue hostages in Iran. So the, there was a host, we had hostages in Iran,

00:26:54.500 you know, we launched an operation to get them out. A bunch of special operations troops died,

00:26:59.280 uh, in, not through contact, but through like poor planning and communication. Um, so the,

00:27:05.920 the decision was made that we're going to make a unit that will kind of house all of the special

00:27:11.300 operations forces. So in 1987, that unit stood up and the SEALs, you know, were kind of given over by

00:27:17.360 the Navy, the Green Berets and the Rangers by the army, the pararescue and, uh, uh, combat controllers

00:27:23.940 from the air force. And the Marine Corps was invited, Hey, you know, give us your force recon

00:27:28.720 guys. And the Marine Corps said, no, no, thanks. Um, which was always the Marine Corps.

00:27:34.980 Sounds about par for the course.

00:27:36.800 Yeah. I love the Marine Corps, but the Marine Corps has always had a, uh, reluctance to identify

00:27:42.720 anybody as special. All right. So, and before this, you know, Vietnam, uh, the SEALs,

00:27:49.520 the Green Berets and the force recon were, you know, pretty much kind of considered,

00:27:53.940 you know, equal, uh, uh, partners. Right. Um, so it wasn't until 2001 that the recognition

00:28:05.540 of the secretary of defense was that this war is going to require a lot bigger special operations

00:28:12.040 footprint. So he directed the SEALs to make more SEAL teams, the army to make more, uh,

00:28:17.740 green berets and told the Marine Corps, Hey, this time you guys are going to participate.

00:28:22.720 So I had been, I was actually in setting in a Irish pub in Darwin, Australia, you know,

00:28:29.340 um, drinking a beer and, you know, the soccer game that was on the television screen switch

00:28:35.780 to the tower first tower. Um, and we were on deployment, right. We had just left on ships,

00:28:41.940 sailed from the States to Australia, stopped to train for a couple of days, uh, with the Australians

00:28:47.100 and, uh, so we knew we were jumping right back on ships and going straight across the ocean. So we

00:28:53.380 were in Afghanistan in November of 2001. And, uh, so you were there fat, just a matter of months,

00:29:01.400 you were already in Afghanistan. Yeah. Yeah. And the, the, there were some, the horse soldiers, 0.85

00:29:06.940 the army green berets up in the mountains were, you know, they were already there, but other than that,

00:29:11.400 we were really the kind of the first boots on the ground in any number. So that, uh, so we were kind

00:29:17.460 of unaware of it at the time, but back, back home, the, the secretary of defense had told the Marine

00:29:22.360 Corps, Hey, you're going to, to, to do this. Um, and the Marine Corps fought back as much as it could.

00:29:27.920 And eventually, and it took two years before the, the decision was, was officially slapped, you know,

00:29:37.740 the table slapped that we're going to create a, a two-year proof of concept unit, a small unit of 86 men

00:29:44.240 that will, uh, deploy, you know, under US SOCOM and, uh, then we'll evaluate how well they do and decide

00:29:54.260 whether it makes sense to have a larger, uh, component that became the Marine Raiders. So.

00:30:01.000 Got it. So your, so your 86 guys were the first iteration of Marine Raiders, it sounds like.

00:30:08.200 Yes. Yeah. Got it. Okay.

00:30:10.220 So when we, when we started, we had, uh, you know, these guys from World War II, World War II Raiders,

00:30:15.540 because the Marine Corps had started the Raiders in World War II. They existed for two years and then,

00:30:21.720 they disbanded them. So, you know, we had these, these guys who were in their 80s who were coming

00:30:26.160 out and like, Hey man, you know, we want you to like carry on our legacy. And, and they really are

00:30:31.060 the ones that pushed ultimately for the name Marine Raiders to be awarded to, to Marine Special

00:30:36.400 Operations. Um, which is really cool. I mean, that was, that was awesome to talk to them and listen to

00:30:42.320 their stories. But, uh, so in 2003, I was pulled in by my, my boss and he was like, Hey, have you heard

00:30:50.420 the rumors about this, this unit? And I was like, yeah, I've heard it, but you know, I don't know

00:30:55.180 anything about it. And he was like, well, you know, I'm, I'm in charge of it. So, so do you want

00:31:00.000 in? And I'm like, yeah, of course I do. Right. So he was, uh, like, he'll be at one of four team

00:31:05.260 leaders and, um, you know, you can pick your guys from across, you know, Marine recon. So he was,

00:31:13.280 and we mostly picked guys that we knew. So it was, you know, Hey, here's, of course,

00:31:16.700 these guys are, are long ball hitters that I know. I want them on my team. Um, and so we

00:31:22.620 stood up, you know, trained and prepared and thought that we were going to be going to Afghanistan,

00:31:30.260 um, for the, about the first half of our, our training, uh, cycle, we had a year. We thought

00:31:36.880 that we were going to go to Afghanistan, focusing on long range reconnaissance, which was, like

00:31:41.700 said, it was, uh, a problem. Um, about halfway through, we were told, no, you're going to go

00:31:47.800 to Iraq and you're, uh, work underneath a Navy SEAL, uh, task group. And so we, that's, and our role

00:31:56.480 was going to be more, more of a door kicking than anything else. So, um, that's, that's what we did

00:32:03.140 in 2000 and early 2004, we went, uh, went to Iraq and we're kind of operating in around Baghdad

00:32:11.760 area and we're there through the year. Yeah. That's why I was in, I was in Ramadi in, uh, 2005

00:32:18.320 through 2006. So a little, not, not too long after you were there. What, what was that experience

00:32:25.260 like for you? We, when I was there, we had our, our unit, I was in the national guard, but we got

00:32:30.440 activated under a regular army. And, uh, we had three missions. We had a base defense mission

00:32:35.560 for our base there in Ramadi. Uh, we had a small counterfire mission, but again, some of our, uh,

00:32:42.400 rules of engagement limitations prohibited us from doing the work that we were capable of doing.

00:32:48.000 Uh, and then we had a patrol mission, which is the kicking doors, that sort of thing. But what was

00:32:52.640 your role, uh, while you were there? What, what were the types of things that you were doing? It sounds

00:32:57.820 like you were door to door in the towns, in the cities, like getting it done.

00:33:02.740 Yeah, we were, uh, it was interesting. We got in country and there had not been normally,

00:33:08.620 you know, there's, uh, another unit that you turn over with, right? You show up and call it a rip toe,

00:33:15.340 a release place and turnover of authority. Yeah. Um, and in special operations say like, Hey,

00:33:21.200 here's all the targets that we were tracking, you know, that we haven't had the opportunity to get to

00:33:25.900 that we didn't have anybody. So we showed up, um, and in our turnover was with Jaco. So Jaco was,

00:33:34.700 uh, I had deployed with him a couple of times before, you know, before in years before. So we

00:33:39.420 knew him a little bit and he was working on the staff. So this was before he showed back up in

00:33:44.440 Ramadi, um, with, with his, uh, task unit. He was like a bruiser, I believe. Yeah. Bruiser. Yeah.

00:33:52.220 So he was on the staff. So he was just like our liaison that, uh, was like, Hey, we really don't,

00:33:57.560 we have two targets, um, that they're high value targets that everybody had been trying to get

00:34:05.260 after, but had been unable to. So they like, really, this is all the info we have, you know,

00:34:11.220 you've kind of got to figure things out on your own. And so it really came down to just a lot of work

00:34:16.300 by our, um, I said, we had eight, we started with 87. I think we actually deployed with about a hundred

00:34:22.660 people. Um, about 30 of it were, were the shooters, the door kickers. We had about another 30 were our

00:34:30.560 Intel folks. And we had, uh, which was unusual, uh, for a unit of that size. We had just amazing.

00:34:37.680 That much Intel or what was unusual? Yeah. To have that, that big of a, of an Intel section.

00:34:43.900 Got it. And the, that talented, right. So they were, the Marine Corps was, we were pulling people

00:34:49.320 from the NSA, from all these different places. So, so like human intelligence, signals, intelligence,

00:34:54.640 geospatial intelligence, we had people that were phenomenal. Um, so they just started like digging

00:35:00.440 into things and, and finding, uh, you know, gathering information and making assessments and,

00:35:07.040 you know, handing us missions. So, and then once you, so we were, we were kind of chartered with

00:35:12.900 targeting relatively high value targets. So we weren't like kind of the door to door thing. We

00:35:18.940 were the 2 AM, you know, we show up at a particular house, blow the door off, grab a guy, you know,

00:35:24.760 we know, hopefully know who we're looking for, you know, we're in and out and, um, you know,

00:35:29.320 30 minutes or less, um, you know, with all of the, the computers and paperwork and things like that.

00:35:36.280 So, you know, once we started figuring out who is kind of, who is who in the, in the zoo,

00:35:41.240 you know, then we were able to, you know, identify other targets and target, you know,

00:35:46.240 bomb makers specifically or financiers and cell leaders and things of that nature. So a lot of the,

00:35:52.800 or at least some of the guys from the deck of cards that was kind of the 52 most wanted,

00:35:57.780 you know, we got a couple of those, a couple of those guys. Um, so we were, but that was a mission

00:36:02.980 that everybody knew we were good at. So they, they were like, Hey, this is supposed to be a test.

00:36:08.740 So we also need you to see, to see you do some other things. So we, uh, we spent a while as providing

00:36:15.740 a bodyguard detail for the, the government, the Iraqi government. So we had a primary responsibility

00:36:22.240 for the vice president of Iraq, um, which was really cool. I mean, uh, he was a Kurd and,

00:36:28.800 and, and, you know, both, you know, everybody in Iraq hates the Kurds, you know, except the Kurds. 0.62

00:36:34.120 Saddam had killed millions of them. So, uh, there were a lot of people that, that weren't too excited

00:36:39.220 about having a Kurdish vice president. So, you know, protecting him.

00:36:43.100 If I remember correctly, the Kurds were very skeptical of us being there because in the Gulf

00:36:47.420 War, we had came in, basically stirred up the hornet's nest, left, left, and then allowed 0.93

00:36:51.460 them to get massacred. And when we left in our absence, is that correct? 0.61

00:36:55.700 Yeah. Yeah. And they've, uh, the whole, and I, I didn't know this, I don't think until I was,

00:37:01.100 I got over there, but in pre-World War I, I mean, Kurds had, uh, had their own country,

00:37:08.700 right. And, uh, post-World War I, the Brits, you know, it was called the Sykes-Picot-Pittot

00:37:15.440 agreement. They, they decided they were going to draw new country borders and they essentially

00:37:21.920 eliminated Kurdistan. So the Kurds, you know, are kind of unwanted, you know, guests in Iraq, 1.00

00:37:29.500 Iran, um, you know, kind of what was their country is, is now.

00:37:34.220 Yeah. It was like, it's Northern Iraq. Is that right?

00:37:37.040 Yeah. A lot of Northern Iraq and to Iran, um, you know, uh, across, uh, into Pakistan,

00:37:44.840 I think in some cases they had a, like a big kind of, you know, country that was theirs

00:37:50.380 and we kind of took it away or not us, but, uh, the, the Brits.

00:37:54.680 It was taken away. Yeah.

00:37:56.160 Yeah. So, so they're, you know, kind of unwanted people in a bunch of countries. So they have,

00:38:01.520 uh, you know, been, you know, they can be a great ally, but, you know, like as we've done,

00:38:07.640 you know, a number of times through our country's history is, is not, uh, treat people that, you

00:38:13.000 know, support us really well, you know, when they, they cease to become, you know, we saw

00:38:16.880 when we pulled out of Afghanistan, the way that we did or with, uh, you know, the Nungs 1.00

00:38:22.040 and the Montagnards and, and Vietnam in some cases. So at any rate, the, uh, you know, we protected

00:38:29.580 him for a while. Uh, we provided sniper, uh, support to some, the fights in the Joff and,

00:38:36.840 and some different, uh, areas in Iraq and overall, you know, ultimately the, at the end of the day,

00:38:44.840 the decision was that, you know, we had performed well. And, uh, even though the Marine Corps was

00:38:51.080 still, still didn't want, didn't want it. And, uh, SOCOM really still didn't want it. The

00:38:55.840 Secretary of Defense was like, Hey, you guys are going to, you know, create an entire organization.

00:39:01.420 Um, so we went from being led by a Colonel to a two-star general and went from, you know,

00:39:07.300 a hundred people to several thousand.

00:39:09.540 That's wild. What, what is your take? And I know you can't speak for the community. You can only speak

00:39:14.120 for yourself, but what is your take on, uh, just a couple of days ago? Uh, there's a lot of reports

00:39:20.700 of the Taliban parading and, and, uh, uh, showing off our $7 billion worth of, uh, military helicopters

00:39:28.380 and vehicles and equipment. Uh, what, what is your take on that? Yeah, that's, uh, I mean,

00:39:36.160 it's unfortunate. Absolutely. The, uh, I mean, to put it mildly, right? Yeah. I mean, I do,

00:39:43.340 I should have said before my opinions, you know, don't represent SOCOM or I still work for them,

00:39:47.740 uh, but, uh, or anybody else, but, uh, you know, there's, there's always going to be,

00:39:53.420 you know, whatever waste, you know, when, in, in combat, you know, in Vietnam, they were landing,

00:40:00.560 uh, helicopters on ships and just pushing them over. Cause there, there wasn't into the ocean

00:40:06.640 because there wasn't room to take them back. Um, you know, we always leave stuff and, you know,

00:40:12.400 all of that stuff that's left will probably last them, you know, another year before they are

00:40:17.620 unable to, to maintain them or get parts for them, hopefully. But, uh, yeah, I mean, we, it was,

00:40:24.320 it was poorly executed, right? Uh, the, the withdrawal was, uh, was, was really poorly executed.

00:40:31.900 And, you know, we left behind a lot of, um, I mean, even more important than the, the equipment

00:40:37.920 and things like that were, you know, Afghanis who were fighting, you know, with us, for us, um,

00:40:44.720 you know, interpreters that were working with us, a lot of people that, that got left,

00:40:49.920 you know, as, you know, kind of in the quick pullout. And there were a lot of, uh, I was kind

00:40:54.940 of on the periphery of it, but I have a lot of friends who were very heavily involved in,

00:40:59.220 uh, those different operations, but one was called Operation Dunkirk, which was like a lot of former

00:41:04.780 special operations guys who were just kind of working phones and finding ways to get their

00:41:09.560 interpreter, you know, or their, uh, their Afghan commandos, you know, back, you know,

00:41:15.040 out of the country, uh, at the, because they, you know, had a huge target painted on their,

00:41:19.100 their forehead, you know, the minute that, that, that we started leaving. So that was

00:41:23.220 poorly, poorly executed, uh, to put it mildly.

00:41:29.760 Men, let me step away from the conversation very briefly. We'll get right back to it in a minute.

00:41:34.080 Uh, I want to talk about divorce. Obviously that's a little bit of a shift of gears from what we've

00:41:39.980 been talking about, but as you know, if you've gone through a divorce or separation or even

00:41:45.120 considering one, it is a battle. It is a challenge. And it's going to take all that you have to be

00:41:51.020 able to navigate this successfully. Unfortunately, I found myself in the same boat roughly two years

00:41:56.340 ago, and I've been working hard at improving myself and proving my ability to lead my children,

00:42:02.960 growing the business again, and just getting back on my feet. And, uh, I know a lot of guys are not

00:42:08.860 able to do that after the news of, uh, pending divorce, but I can tell you that life is not over

00:42:14.320 life can get better and you can get on top of this. Uh, so we put together a course. It's not

00:42:19.980 available until next month, mid middle of the month, next month. But in the meantime, you can go

00:42:25.260 ahead and get signed up. I'm going to send you resources and some information leading up to next

00:42:29.180 month, but we're bringing in guest experts on the subject of finances and the legal ramifications

00:42:35.560 of a divorce. We're also going to be talking about how to be a great co-parent, how to lead your

00:42:41.380 children effectively, um, how to fight for your rights as a father. And then also at some point,

00:42:47.260 potentially even getting back into the dating pool. So we've got it covered from A to Z. If you're

00:42:52.340 interested, go to divorce, not death.com, get signed up. We'll send you some emails and we'll let you

00:42:58.280 know when the course is available, uh, the middle of next month. Again, divorce, not death.com do that

00:43:04.260 right after the show for now. Let me get back to it with John. You brought up an interesting point

00:43:10.160 with their ability to even use this equipment for hopefully, hopefully not much longer than a year.

00:43:16.060 Like you said, I, I almost wonder, you know, obviously, uh, you know, it, it doesn't take a rocket

00:43:22.580 science, a scientist to be able to drive a Humvee down the road, but I also wonder how are they flying our

00:43:28.120 helicopters? Do they have like, how does that work? I mean, there's so much, there's the military

00:43:34.760 significance or, or, or how complex those machines are. It's hard for me to understand and wrap my

00:43:41.000 head around that they're able to use these and I'm sure they're not using them to their full capability,

00:43:45.120 but the fact that they can't even fly the thing is kind of a interesting fact to me.

00:43:49.240 Yeah. I mean, and they're not, uh, you know, because they live in the desert doesn't, you know,

00:43:53.460 it doesn't make them dumb, obviously. No way. And they, they've got, you know, pilots and, 0.93

00:43:58.940 and, you know, some people that we trained that, that, you know, depending on their, you know,

00:44:03.780 uh, their, whatever they're doing now, um, you know, and then it absolutely likely, I mean,

00:44:10.600 the Hueys or Blackhawks have been around for a long time. So there's, there's parts, you know, 0.96

00:44:15.940 people that they can, they can hire, um, or, or bring in or, or train to, to maintain them. So,

00:44:23.240 but I have a feeling that, uh, you know, a lot of them, it's really, really hard to maintain

00:44:28.380 equipment in Afghanistan as it is. I mean, the, you know, depending, depending on where you are,

00:44:33.180 but that sand is like talcum powder, right. And it just gets in and destroys, destroys things

00:44:39.280 really, really quickly. So there's, uh, hopefully, you know, I'm just, I'll kind of wishful thinking

00:44:44.220 it may be, but, uh, between those couple of, uh, challenges, you know, hopefully most of that

00:44:50.640 equipment won't live to be used against us, you know, at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

00:44:56.960 we'll keep our fingers crossed on that, but that's not a, not a great strategy, but what is your role

00:45:01.520 now? Because I, you're still part of the community. And if I understand correctly, uh, you're, you're

00:45:06.880 responsible or a director for, uh, training for, is it for Marine recons is, I mean, um, Raiders,

00:45:14.120 is that correct? Yes. Yes. I, um, after that, that unit debt one was stood down in 2006 and

00:45:22.860 MARSOC, the Raiders was activated. Uh, I came out and I had spent most of my career in the Marine

00:45:28.520 Corps on the West coast of California. Um, although I'm born and raised in Virginia. So I, I came out,

00:45:34.480 uh, to North Carolina to where the headquarters was going to be and was kind of tasked with helping to,

00:45:42.540 uh, start the school. It was, it was going to train Marine Raiders. I worked at that, uh, for a

00:45:49.220 couple of years and then retired, uh, from active duty in 2008. And, uh, after it was 21, 21 years,

00:45:56.560 a little over that I've been in and, uh, it was fortunate that I rolled right into a job,

00:46:02.600 you know, the, the job that I have now I've been doing for over 16 years of, which is, is phenomenal

00:46:09.120 to be able to get to work every day with, you know, young men and women that are, uh, you know,

00:46:14.900 on, on the, either Marine Raiders or on the route to, to becoming Raiders.

00:46:21.480 Well, so what is, why, why have a, uh, you're a civilian then at this point, uh, why,

00:46:27.280 why have a civilian in your role as opposed to somebody actively in the military? I know once a

00:46:34.680 Marine, always a Marine, but I'm just using those terms just so we can get an understanding of it.

00:46:39.540 Yeah, there was, I, you know, what, before I got into SOCOM, I had not,

00:46:43.720 just was not used to seeing civilians in, in the military, you know, uh, it was rare.

00:46:50.840 It's, it was much more prevalent in, in SOCOM. And I think it's become more prevalent. Um,

00:46:56.700 the, one of the downsides with the military is that, you know, every two years you're moving,

00:47:01.700 you know, right. Um, so there are areas, particularly, you know, one of the things that I,

00:47:08.840 I really oversee kind of three main areas, the courses that we teach and the curriculum

00:47:14.300 development and management thereof. Um, and that's, uh, that's full-time job. I mean,

00:47:19.960 I've got a team that does that, but that's, you know, throwing somebody in and expecting them to

00:47:25.000 learn it and be able to do everything they're supposed to do, you know, and then, oh, by the way,

00:47:28.740 you're leaving in two years is, uh, challenging. So there, there are places where having, you know,

00:47:34.700 continuity is valuable and, uh, there's, you know, having, you know, somebody who's, who's seen,

00:47:42.040 you know, seen it come around again and again, the good ideas, uh, that, Hey, what if we do this?

00:47:46.420 Like, well, we, you know, we could try it, but we tried it four years ago and then we tried it four

00:47:50.920 years before that. Um, so that's, that's valuable. Um, and having, you know, somebody with

00:47:57.520 a level of, uh, credibility and special operations experience that can, you know, not bound by the

00:48:06.540 military rank structure. You know, I can, I can talk to our commanding officer, just, you know,

00:48:11.060 kind of man to man about, you know, you know, questions that he might have or, or, you know,

00:48:15.940 offer advice to the senior leaders. So I think that's, that's valuable, but we, uh, the, the

00:48:22.140 curriculum development, um, instructor development, which is a really, you know, the, my favorite part

00:48:27.340 of my job, uh, is, you know, we train our, and the guys come, coming in to be instructors or our

00:48:33.520 ragers, right? They're just long ball hitters. They're really good at what they do. Top, top 0.99

00:48:38.420 much people anyways. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, teaching them how to teach the coach and mentor and,

00:48:43.620 and, uh, you know, it's, it's, I love that part of it. And then probably the part that I might love

00:48:49.800 even more than that is, you know, getting to, there's a lot of, uh, you know, when we get new

00:48:56.100 students in, I get to, you know, talk to them a lot about kind of what will make them successful.

00:49:02.240 Um, some about like ethics and, and, and morality and, um, mental toughness, you know, a lot about that,

00:49:09.440 which is one of my favorite things to talk about, uh, you know, and then some things that, you know,

00:49:14.540 study habits, goal setting, you know, things that'll make them successful as they go through a really

00:49:19.480 hard training course. So it's, it's pretty fun. Yeah. You know, I, I've got a pretty bad ass job.

00:49:25.380 Yeah. I'd say, are you planning on sticking around for, for a while? I mean, you, you probably don't

00:49:32.000 have any plans on leaving anytime soon. Ah, I asked myself that I tell myself that when I,

00:49:38.160 I stop enjoying, you know, going to work every day, you know, and I, I probably enjoy it about

00:49:43.260 four days out of five, you know, I still, there's a lot of, it's pretty good administrative. Yeah.

00:49:47.960 The administrative stuff that I have to deal with, but then, you know, just when I start to get

00:49:51.760 frustrated, I'll, uh, and one of the things I love to do, I go and I, it's, I also have access to,

00:49:57.460 you know, our, our gym and strength and conditioning coaches or dietitians and physical therapists and

00:50:03.800 which I need more and more of. Um, but you know, showing up in the gym, you know, it's six in the

00:50:10.680 morning and there's, you know, 80, you know, hard chargers, uh, in there, you know, just throwing,

00:50:16.400 throwing steel around. And, you know, as you kind of walk through and try to find an open rack,

00:50:20.280 they're, uh, like, Hey, Mr. Daly, how's it going? You know, like that's, that kind of makes my day.

00:50:25.560 So it starts the day off. Right. Hearing, uh, hearing Mr. Daly was probably a trip, uh, when

00:50:32.760 you became a civilian, that was probably a hard thing to wrap your head around. I don't, I feel

00:50:37.320 bad about it now. I, I mean, I don't, I really like, I'm not the kind of guy that would like answer

00:50:41.560 the phone, Mr. Daly, or, you know, I feel very awkward, but, uh, and I used to, you know, stand

00:50:47.440 in front of them, you know, and be like, Hey, my name's John. But they, they start calling me

00:50:52.260 John and then the instructors yell at them, uh, for, for doing that. So I'm like, all right,

00:50:57.120 I guess it's, you know, it's, I'm twice your age at least. So it's, uh, it's now time when,

00:51:02.460 yeah, you, I guess I have to come to terms with it if not for, for my sake, for theirs,

00:51:07.360 you know, so they're not getting yelled at. And I mean, I, there's just a level of decorum

00:51:13.220 and respect with that as well, which I think all of us can appreciate too, especially in the

00:51:17.540 military. I mean, that, that, that command and that respect, I think is something that's value.

00:51:22.000 I wish we had more of it in society in general, so I don't think it's a bad thing.

00:51:26.380 Yeah, no, no, I, I don't. Um, and I've always been, you know, somebody to call, you know,

00:51:32.760 you know, my elders, sir or Mr. Uh, but, uh, I just never really saw that applying to me.

00:51:38.940 You know, it's like the, everybody says, you know, I thought Mr. Daly's my dad.

00:51:42.940 Yeah. Right. Right. How, how much are you able to avoid the political gamesmanship that I,

00:51:50.240 that I know takes place at the higher echelons of military leadership and obviously you're in,

00:51:55.460 and civilian leadership within the military as well.

00:51:58.780 We luckily where, you know, where I work at the school and within the, the MARSOC, the Raiders as a,

00:52:06.240 as a whole, there's probably some of that. I mean, I have absolutely no aspirations of, uh,

00:52:12.080 you know, becoming a higher rank. Um, my job is my job. So it will not like, I can,

00:52:19.580 I basically get, you know, cost of living increases as I go, but you know, it's, it's,

00:52:25.200 I'm not getting promoted. So in order to get, you know, promoted and get a significant raise,

00:52:30.460 I would have to seek out another job and I have no desire to do that. So I'm kind of immune to it,

00:52:36.640 you know, which is also nice. You know, I get, uh, and, and most of the people that I work with

00:52:41.640 are in the same boat. They're like, Hey, I'm doing this because it's not necessarily, you know,

00:52:45.260 I have a military retirement and, uh, not because I, I have to, you know, I could absolutely get by,

00:52:51.180 uh, you know, without it, I could, uh, you know, certainly there, there are some other things I

00:52:58.340 would like, you know, I'd like to be able to write more and, you know, making a living writing books is,

00:53:02.920 is a little more challenging than, uh, some people might think. Um, so that's, you know,

00:53:10.080 that's, we'll kind of remain a sideline, but there's, there are absolutely other things I

00:53:14.480 would like to do. Um, but, uh, you know, I, I just find it hard to step away from something where I get

00:53:20.100 the, the absolute job satisfaction every day of, of having, you know, being able to play a small role

00:53:25.660 in making Raiders. Yeah, no, I, I bet that's very, uh, rewarding. What are some of your biggest

00:53:32.740 frustrations that you have in leading the way that you do, uh, maybe even in the political

00:53:37.760 landscape that you might have to navigate to some degree, not you necessarily, but seeing how it's

00:53:41.800 infused in the culture, um, or just training warriors? What are some frustrations that you deal

00:53:47.640 with? You know, one of the things that I've, I've been thinking about a lot more is, uh, you know,

00:53:54.860 we've, one of the things we've been looking at, we have a not insignificant chunk of people that

00:54:01.120 start the training and then quit, you know, um, and I hate to see that, you know, somebody that's,

00:54:08.460 and this is, they're quitting after they've already gone through a pretty grueling assessment

00:54:12.940 and selection process. So, you know, 75% of the people that started trying out are, didn't make it.

00:54:19.680 So of the 25%, you know, we have people that have proven themselves capable. Um, right. So,

00:54:26.400 so that's, that's absolutely a frustration, especially talking with them after, you know,

00:54:31.200 knowing that, uh, that, man, you're going to have that in the head for the rest of your life,

00:54:36.060 that you probably could have done this thing and you quit on yourself. Um, so I spent a lot of time

00:54:41.420 up front. Do you think that's a cultural issue? I'm really curious about that because I mean,

00:54:45.600 the, the, the general consensus, I think, or at least what I've understand it to be is the candidates

00:54:50.480 that we have eligible for roles and positions like this are fewer and farther between than they may

00:54:56.860 have been even 30 years ago. Do you feel that's the case or is there something else at play here?

00:55:03.740 Yeah, I think so. Well, look, I mean, just, if you talk about your military recruiting, you know, the

00:55:09.040 numbers and I'm not really up on them, but, you know, supposedly like less than 2% of, of American

00:55:15.580 high schoolers are eligible to join because they're fat and, and out of shape and, or have like

00:55:22.840 criminal things or whatever the case is, you know, something that just disqualifies them.

00:55:27.780 So we're drawing from a pool of, you know, 2% of the eligible population. Um, and that's got to fill

00:55:34.240 the, you know, the Marine Corps, the army, the Navy, the air force, uh, space force, coast guard,

00:55:39.180 you know, national guard, uh, reserve, all of these entities fighting for these guys. And the Marine

00:55:44.260 Corps has always done pretty well at meeting recruiting goals. But, uh, I do think absolutely

00:55:50.780 there's, there's some cultural things that have, that have changed, you know, and one of them is, 0.96

00:55:55.880 um, there's a whole lot of like G-Watt vets that spend a lot of time like motherfucking the military, 0.98

00:56:02.160 you know, bad mouth and they're saying, Hey, what is that? A G-Watt, did you say G-Watt? What is that? 0.96

00:56:07.820 The global war on terror, you know, guys who were in the military, um, that, uh, you know,

00:56:13.800 are like, Hey, I wouldn't want my kids serving in the military now and, and are like kind of vocal

00:56:18.420 about, uh, and, and there's, I mean, it's kind of a double-edged sword. The only way to fix something

00:56:24.380 is to get in and fix it. All right. You can't, uh, if you sit on the sidelines criticizing it, you know,

00:56:30.300 you're probably not going to do much to, to, to fix it, but there are still, you know, I'm amazed

00:56:35.580 that there are still, you know, incredibly talented, you know, folks, you know, that,

00:56:42.600 you know, spend some time in the Marine Corps tryout and come to us and they're, I know, hands

00:56:48.360 down, they're smarter, like a hell of a lot smarter than I was. Uh, you know, when I joined

00:56:53.700 there, uh, they have a lot going for them. I mean, obviously tech, more technology, you know,

00:56:59.900 we didn't have a lot of technology, but, uh, more tech savvy and things. But the one thing that I,

00:57:05.740 I think is lacking is, is, uh, in some cases, and I don't want to like broad brush statement

00:57:11.980 anybody, but like mental toughness is a thing that's, that's not as prevalent. Um, and, and has

00:57:18.440 to be built. I mean, we, we work to, to kind of build that, um, commitment. There's like, you know,

00:57:25.200 it's become, I think more fashionable to like, Hey, if you're not enjoying what you're doing,

00:57:31.580 just quit. Right. And, you know, in some cases there's hard, uh, there's, there's probably good,

00:57:39.360 there's some, you know, truth to that, but you know, the, the, there has to be a recognition

00:57:44.900 that if you want to achieve something great, you've got to go through the steps that it takes to get

00:57:49.880 there. And, you know, most of those steps are, you know, if it's something worth having, it's,

00:57:53.380 it's likely that it's going to be a lot of hard work. And, uh, I also think that there's,

00:57:59.300 I, you know, I've been, I've absolutely noticed this. I think that we draw from a pool of, of

00:58:07.720 Marines who were, you know, the big fish in the little pond where they came from, right. They

00:58:13.160 were the fittest, the smartest, the toughest, the, uh, the coolest. And they, they show up and they

00:58:18.600 realize that they're like kind of treading water, barely, you know, trying to keep their head

00:58:21.920 above water because they're in a group, a room full of, of pipe hitters, you know, uh, and it's,

00:58:29.040 it takes, you know, it could take a little bit of time to realize that, man, you know, imagine

00:58:35.200 living life showing up every day in a group of guys like this, you know, they're all badasses,

00:58:41.280 you know, where I've, I've got a, uh, like every day work to make sure that I'm worthy of,

00:58:47.380 of being here. Um, so it's, I think there's a portion early in training where they, if they

00:58:52.660 can't make that connection that they're like, man, it may be, it's better to go back to where

00:58:57.260 I came from and be the, be the, you know, cock of the walk rather than a little, a little 0.53

00:59:02.580 pond. Yeah. Yeah. Rather than sit here and, and, and fight. Uh, so, so a lot of, uh, and 0.97

00:59:08.520 some of it, some of it, I think is another reason why it comes better from a father figure,

00:59:14.580 right. Or a grandfather figure. I'm getting, getting close to that point. Uh, uh, maybe not

00:59:21.220 quite, but, uh, you know, I, I talked to him a lot really early on about, Hey man, this

00:59:25.860 is, this is absolutely worth doing. Right. It's, uh, but, uh, you know, because it's worth

00:59:32.160 doing, you know, we're, you know, we gotta have people that want to do this. And so we make

00:59:37.400 it, it's, it's easy to quit. I mean, you know, and once you quit, there's no taking

00:59:43.260 it back. You know, that's something that I think is pretty, uh, standard around, you

00:59:48.520 know, special operations units and the seals, they have the bell that they ring. Um, and

00:59:53.960 we, we have, uh, which a thing that we took from the World War II Raiders, when they, they 0.69

00:59:58.880 show up, they're given a, a sling rope, right. They have like a 15 foot section of rope that

01:00:03.780 you would use to tie a repel seat or use to, uh, you know, like help make a rope bridge

01:00:10.580 to cross an obstacle or, or whatever the case may be. Um, and they, they wear that kind

01:00:15.820 of looped around their shoulders and tied into a knot kind of like a pack strap, you

01:00:19.780 know, and they wear that throughout training, you know, and all they have to do to quit is

01:00:23.700 take it off and turn it in because it's, it's kind of the recognition that, Hey man, you

01:00:28.420 know, with your 15 foot section of rope, your team can get over bigger obstacles.

01:00:33.440 Right. And if, if you're not willing to, to do that, then, you know, you're degrading

01:00:38.020 your team's ability. And if that doesn't, you know, make you think very, very long and

01:00:42.760 hard about, about quitting, then, you know, we absolutely, you're not somebody that we

01:00:46.820 want on the team to begin with. But the question is, there's also some shame that

01:00:52.700 comes to, and I don't always think shame's a bad thing. I remember I did this, um, this

01:00:57.460 endurance event and you could quit anytime. And the way that you quit is you ring, I

01:01:03.140 think you rang a bell that was in the shape of a Spartan helmet. And there were

01:01:07.520 a couple of moments where I'm like, I don't, what am I doing? I don't need to be

01:01:10.320 doing this, but damn, if I was going to walk up in front of everybody else and 0.99

01:01:14.180 ring that damn bell, I'm not doing that. No way. And I think that a little bit of 0.99

01:01:18.160 peer pressure helps.

01:01:20.120 Yeah. And that's, uh, I went out to, uh, to Bud's, to the Navy SEAL school and, and,

01:01:26.120 uh, you know, talk to them about the, the bell and everything. And, and that's, you

01:01:31.600 know, came back, realized that doing something because before that, you know, all

01:01:36.720 somebody had to do was say, I quit, you know, we were like, Hey, let's make do,

01:01:40.080 make it something that they've got to do in front of their, their peers. And they've

01:01:43.960 got to recognize that by, by quitting, they are, you know, demonstrating that, Hey,

01:01:49.760 I'm giving up on you guys or you are, I'm not, uh, and that's, that reduced our, um,

01:01:55.680 and we did that, I don't know, more than 10 years ago, but that, uh, absolutely cut down

01:02:01.580 on that attrition.

01:02:02.720 I'm sure it makes, makes you stop and think about it. Right. Um, and so that's, uh, you

01:02:10.040 know, it, it's early, it's, it's early in the training and it's that people quit, you

01:02:15.400 know, once you make it through the point that you've, you've done hard things

01:02:19.120 together and you've kind of bonded as a team, then it becomes much harder, you

01:02:23.040 know, to, to, uh, for somebody to quit, but it's, it's, like I said, it's double

01:02:27.640 edge. We don't want somebody that's quitter. Um, you know, if you, you know, you, we

01:02:32.720 can't have that on, on missions when the importance, uh, is, is at the level that,

01:02:37.560 that it is. But, uh, and it's, I also really, really hate to see it. I mean, it, it

01:02:42.820 hurts. I, I've had, you know, grown men coming to my office, you know, in tears.

01:02:47.500 Um, you know, like, can I take it back? Is there something I can do? Can I come

01:02:51.180 back? Can I prove, uh, you know, and like, you know, man, you can't, I'm sorry.

01:02:57.360 But, uh, you know, that's, and I, I do think that there's absolutely some societal,

01:03:02.760 uh, you know, changes that have made quitting more acceptable, you know, make,

01:03:09.460 made, you know, changing your mind, giving up, uh, you know, more acceptable that

01:03:13.820 made mental toughness less of a priority, you know, and, and, and particularly, you

01:03:20.760 know, as young people are growing up.

01:03:24.020 Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, as, as we wind things up today, I am curious if you've

01:03:29.640 seen to the degree, of course, that you can talk about seeing any developments as

01:03:33.500 far as where we might be headed for it in the direction of the future of war, you

01:03:38.520 know, and I know obviously you can't speak for everybody or just war in general,

01:03:43.020 but I'm curious if there's things that you're seeing that we need to be aware

01:03:47.340 of when it comes to how we fight our, our wars and our battles.

01:03:52.500 Yeah. I mean, there's obviously technology has changed so much. Um, you know, like

01:03:58.040 said, there'll never not be a requirement for, for, you know, men with strong

01:04:02.940 backs and, and hard feet, but, uh, there will, you know, I mentioned earlier, the

01:04:10.040 idea of the golden hour of being able to get somebody from being wounded to, you

01:04:14.460 know, a trauma surgeon working on them, you know, that was recognition that if we get

01:04:20.040 into what's called great power conflict, you know, where China, Russia, you know, a war

01:04:25.340 with a country, you know, rather than a war with a bunch of, uh, you know, roving

01:04:30.140 thugs that, uh, you know, that, that goes out the window. All right. So we're going

01:04:35.400 to be back to, to casualties. I mean, a lot more people, um, not being saved that would

01:04:41.740 be able to be saved if, you know, in, in, uh, the global war on terror. Um, you know,

01:04:48.460 it's, it's interesting time figuring out how you equip, you know, boots on the ground

01:04:54.740 with the technology and, uh, maximize both of those things. You know, it's, it's

01:05:00.920 started to become, or it's not even started. It's been kind of known for a while that

01:05:05.480 there's, you know, a lot of our adversaries are much more adept in, in, uh, the cyber

01:05:12.460 realm than more adept, but they've been at it for a longer. So, you know, the simple

01:05:17.940 thing that we're seeing in Ukraine of, of, Hey, I post an Instagram picture and, you

01:05:22.500 know, suddenly, uh, a bomb is landing on me, you know, the, the ability to, to, uh, use

01:05:32.080 social media as a weapon is, is a really big thing. The ability to, uh, uh, you know, we've

01:05:41.680 become conditioned that we, you know, we've got to, and it's less of a, I think we do a

01:05:47.020 better job in special operations of, of, uh, making people understand, but in the

01:05:52.640 conventional army, the bigger army or in, you know, units that are not full-time

01:05:57.300 soldiers, you know, Hey, if you're used to posting on Instagram 20 times a day, you

01:06:01.760 know, it's, you know, it's not uncommon that, Hey, let me take some pictures of

01:06:05.140 these people. And if I've got, you know, I'm sitting in some, you know, headquarters

01:06:09.800 somewhere with facial recognition software, I can not only identify everybody in

01:06:13.680 that picture where they live, you know, their families and, you know, start, uh,

01:06:18.340 there have been cases of, uh, you know, just sending like threatening emails or

01:06:22.600 information or erroneous information to, to families of people deployed. Um, so it's,

01:06:28.660 it's, I mean, there's a certain mind fuck, you know, uh, capability that, that we are

01:06:35.100 probably unwilling to, to totally embrace that our adversaries are less, uh, you know, 0.90

01:06:42.680 concerned with, uh, misinformation. There's, I mean, so much of that, that we're

01:06:46.760 sucking in every day that are, you know, Russian bots and Chinese bots, uh, you 0.98

01:06:51.480 know, telling you things that are either absolutely untrue or at least, you know, 0.97

01:06:55.480 uh, partially untrue that are, and, and we're, as a nation, we're kind of ripe for

01:07:01.000 that, you know, we're willing to be spun up, um, you know, depending on which side

01:07:05.020 you're on, you know, by anything that, that, uh, that, uh, uh, you know, fits the,

01:07:12.560 the stereotype of information that you're, you're, or, you know, you're used to hearing

01:07:17.500 or you want to hear. So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, all of us would do a lot

01:07:22.280 better to just kind of be more critical of, uh, of everything, the information that we

01:07:26.040 consume. One consuming less of it is, uh, you know, I've found is, uh, uh, you know,

01:07:31.960 I'm a huge fan of, of, of study. All right. But I've become a, you know, so I, I read,

01:07:38.440 you know, voraciously, you know, I read a lot on the internet, read, but you know, news

01:07:43.860 I've, I've largely learned that, Hey, I'm going to pick and choose, uh, you know, what

01:07:48.200 I listened to and, and listen broadly, you know, don't, you know, not getting tied into

01:07:54.100 one network or one, uh, uh, channel. Um, because I think many times where our own

01:08:01.760 worst enemies, you know, we're, uh, have been a great, the greatest nation in the

01:08:07.380 world for a long time. Right. And we certainly need to, to remain that way.

01:08:12.980 And, and we, it's hard to do when we've got, you know, one half of the country

01:08:17.140 wanted to kill the other half. 0.99

01:08:19.640 That's true. 0.99

01:08:20.600 And vice versa.

01:08:21.060 Well, John, this has been a great discussion. Um, I'd love to hear how the guys can

01:08:24.880 connect with you so they know where to go. And then obviously the book is out right

01:08:28.340 now. So where they can pick up a copy of the book.

01:08:30.120 Absolutely. So the one kind of one-stop shop is, uh, jadaily.com, D-A-I-L-E-Y there.

01:08:38.520 That's my website, obviously, but there's links to, uh, all of the places, uh, you can 0.97

01:08:44.140 get the book, tough, rugged bastards. It's, uh, Amazon, uh, Barnes and Noble books, a 0.53

01:08:50.520 million. Um, the physical store may not have it yet. You may have to ask for it, but,

01:08:55.020 uh, you can order it online and get it. It's available in the,

01:09:00.100 uh, e-reader version, uh, hardback paperback. And the audio book is coming. I think next

01:09:08.480 month it'll be available. Uh, but also on there, there's two sub stacks that I write

01:09:13.320 and there's links to those one called walking point. That's just a weekly kind of things

01:09:19.180 that I think about, about kind of getting better, getting better. And the other is called ruck

01:09:23.660 the fuck up. And that's largely mental toughness and rucking is, is conditioning. And then, uh, 0.77

01:09:29.940 there's below that pod, you know, this will be on there when it comes out podcasts that

01:09:34.140 I've been on and, and things of that nature and down at the bottom. So all the social media,

01:09:38.880 I'm like, I try to, uh, stay off of that as much as I can, but it's, it's kind of a necessary

01:09:43.840 evil. So, uh, LinkedIn, I'm, I'm relatively active on and Instagram. I post, uh, a good day.

01:09:51.020 Other than that, it's, it's pictures of my food or whatever, you know, or my post post

01:09:56.000 workout pictures. There you go. Well, good. Well, I appreciate your time. I'll sync everything

01:10:01.720 up. So the guys know where to go and thank you for your service. You've, uh, you've got

01:10:05.380 decades and decades of service to this country and to us. And, um, I, it probably doesn't

01:10:09.640 get told to you enough, but we are grateful. I appreciate you and your work and you taking

01:10:13.340 some time to join me today. Awesome. Well, I had a great time. Thank you for yours. And, uh,

01:10:18.000 yeah, I had a, I had a blast. Um, thanks for having me on.

01:10:23.300 And there you go. My conversation with John Daly. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. A lot of great

01:10:29.080 information that I wasn't aware of. Uh, that's one thing I try to do, but if you have additional

01:10:32.900 questions and thoughts and things like that, that you'd like me to answer or some feedback for me,

01:10:36.820 please let me know. But I am trying to be a good interviewer and think about and be mindful of the

01:10:42.720 questions that you might want to ask if you had John on the call. So please, if you would make

01:10:48.360 sure you subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcast or Spotify, wherever you're listening. And then

01:10:55.300 also make sure that you're sharing this. We don't do a whole lot of advertising, any in fact. So our

01:11:02.120 grassroots movement, you sharing with a brother, cousin, colleague, coworker, friend, dad, father,

01:11:06.920 et cetera, is how we get the word out. So please do that and connect with me and John over on

01:11:13.120 Instagram. Also pick up with a copy of the book, tough, rugged bastards. And guys, let's get out 0.99

01:11:19.560 there and do the work. You have your marching orders. We'll be back tomorrow for our ask me

01:11:24.720 anything until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:11:29.460 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:11:36.800 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - August 20, 2024

JOHN DAILEY ｜ Becoming a Tough, Rugged B＊stard

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