Order of Man - JOHN ELDREDGE ｜ Embrace Your Battle Like a Man

00:00:00.000 Deep in his heart, every man longs for a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to

00:00:05.460 rescue. Now that's a quote you've heard me recite a hundred or more times. And it's from one of my

00:00:11.260 favorite authors and a book that quite literally changed my life called wild at heart. So to be

00:00:16.260 able to sit down with the author, John Eldridge for a second time is a real honor. And one of

00:00:21.580 the many highlights I've enjoyed while doing this podcast today, we talk about developing

00:00:25.940 a healthy rhythm of life, deciding to be courageous, answering the question, every man asks

00:00:32.100 himself, do I have what it takes? And ultimately embracing your personal battle. You're a man of

00:00:38.220 action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life

00:00:43.680 knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you are not easily deterred, defeated,

00:00:49.620 rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become

00:00:56.700 at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:02.320 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler and I am the host and founder of the

00:01:07.100 Order of Man podcast and movement. Welcome here and welcome back. You know that this is a mission to

00:01:14.620 reclaim masculinity. It's not about redefining masculinity in this new age and talking about

00:01:21.900 how masculinity has changed and how we can adapt to the evolving world. It's about reestablishing

00:01:29.280 traditional masculinity in a society that is not only increasingly dismissive of it,

00:01:34.380 but is downright hostile towards it. And my job is to bring the conversations we're having about

00:01:42.900 masculinity into the mainstream, give you the tools, give you the resources, give you the

00:01:50.320 conversations that you need to thrive as a man. So you can feel good and honorable about being a man

00:01:56.280 and you should. Pop culture doesn't want you to feel good about being a man. The media doesn't want

00:02:03.740 you to feel good about being a man. The entertainment industry portrays you as a bumbling fool, an idiot 1.00

00:02:09.600 who can't lead yourself, let alone other people. And you know, as well as I do, that that is not 1.00

00:02:16.600 indicative of what real masculinity is. And it's not indicative of you. And it's not indicative of the

00:02:23.280 hundreds of men that we've had join me on this podcast, including my guest today, John Eldridge.

00:02:28.940 So we're going to get into that conversation in just a minute. Before I do, let me make sure I make

00:02:34.600 a mention of my friends and show sponsors origin, Maine. These guys have been supporting me for years.

00:02:40.920 Now I've been attempting to support them. I feel like often they do more for me than I do for them.

00:02:46.920 But if you're interested in American made apparel, then you need to check out origin, Maine. These are,

00:02:53.760 these are people in my backyard, quite literally, these are neighbors. These are friends. These are

00:02:57.760 people I train jujitsu with. We have conversations on the daily about not only this mission, but

00:03:04.060 restoring American manufacturing, which is something that we need to do. And that's becoming and will

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00:03:34.500 out their denim, specifically their Delta, Delta jeans, which are a great fit. They're, they've got a

00:03:40.460 little stretch in the denim themselves, which allows you to be as active as you are as a man. So check it

00:03:46.100 out origin, main.com origin, main.com and use the code order O-R-D-E-R at checkout, because you're

00:03:53.140 going to save some money. And if you're going to buy some American made manufactured items,

00:03:57.140 you might as well save some money while you're at it. So do that again, origin, main.com use the

00:04:03.140 code order at checkout. Now guys, let me introduce you to my guest. Once again, he's back. His name is

00:04:08.340 John Eldridge. He's the author, not the wather. He's the author of wild at heart. And he's, he's,

00:04:16.100 truly an incredible human being. And if you don't already know his book and his work have had a huge,

00:04:22.020 huge impact and influence on the work we've been doing here with order of man over the past six

00:04:27.040 years. But not only is John an author, he's a mentor, he's a counselor, he's an advocate to

00:04:33.880 millions of men across the planet. And I could not be more honored to have a conversation again with

00:04:38.600 someone who has been so impactful, not only in my life, but I'd be willing to bet your life as well.

00:04:45.060 So please enjoy this conversation. John, thanks for joining us on the order of man podcast. It's

00:04:51.420 good to see you again. Oh yeah. Ryan, thanks for having me back. I think we're talking under

00:04:56.820 different circumstances and although external circumstances change, I don't think much

00:05:02.140 changes or has changed. Maybe it's only exacerbated with the, the cause of masculinity and the fight for

00:05:08.040 men. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Yeah. It, although the world does seem to be collapsing

00:05:14.080 into serious gender confusion, it's really heartbreaking. Um, what's your take on you use

00:05:21.820 that term gender. What's your take on the distinction or the differentiation that we've seen

00:05:26.300 increasing, uh, between gender and sex? What's your thoughts on that?

00:05:30.780 Yeah. Right. Um, well, if, if sex, you mean, you know, male and female or sexuality, uh, yeah,

00:05:40.780 it's, it's a beautiful broken mess. We work with a lot of guys. We hear from a lot of guys around the

00:05:46.640 world and, um, gender now, like it's, I would say is masculinity a real thing is femininity a real

00:05:55.580 thing is gender, something fluid that you move back and forth. This is the current condition of 1.00

00:06:01.260 the world. Right. And the, the accepted social norm now is that your gender, although you may 0.98

00:06:08.980 have a female body, you may have a masculine body. In other words, you, you have the apparatus, but

00:06:15.160 you actually can change that. If internally you feel more like a woman as a man, or you feel more

00:06:21.860 like a man as a woman, or you're not sure, you know, it's, uh, um, and it's, I know it's pissing 0.90

00:06:29.140 a lot of people off, but bottom line, it's really heartbreaking because people, when you're confused

00:06:34.780 at that level, you're really confused. No doubt. You know, that's that your, your masculinity is so

00:06:42.220 core to your being and to who you were created to be that if, if, if that is been called into

00:06:50.540 question, if that's come under a lot of doubt or assault, man, that that's a hard place to find

00:06:57.440 yourself in. Yeah. I also think, I mean, not only that, obviously those individuals who are at that

00:07:03.460 point are very confused. It's got to be very frustrating and very heart wrenching. Uh, but

00:07:08.180 then there's also the popularity of it. Right. And we know that, right. We've seen that is that it's

00:07:12.420 popular or it's cool or it's in vogue. Right. And then we end up, uh, injecting these children with

00:07:19.640 puberty blockers and things like this that, uh, do irreversible damage to their, their growth and

00:07:25.880 who they are as potentially men in the future. Right. And their health, by the way, I mean,

00:07:30.780 you can't, yeah, you start jacking around with, with your body and your hormones and your chemistry

00:07:37.080 and stuff. And that's, that also is, is super damaging, but, but there's two stories going on

00:07:42.580 in the world right now. And one story is not getting told. Everybody knows that story that we just

00:07:47.720 talked about, right. Just crazy making sure. The really cool story, Ryan, because of where we sit,

00:07:53.980 you know, kind of a wild at heart, we're not, we're in contact with a lot of guys like you,

00:07:58.640 a lot of guys around the world. And we're getting a pulse of what's going on in the masculinity movement.

00:08:05.440 And there is good news. Yes. Like the guys, yeah. The guys who follow you, the guys who are doing

00:08:11.700 father, son things, you know, that there's all kinds of grassroots, organic, real deal stuff

00:08:20.200 for men going on, not just in the U S but all over the world. And it, it's this great untold story.

00:08:27.920 I'm, I'm loving it because there, there is a recovery of genuine masculinity going on. It's just

00:08:34.740 not taking place in the media. I'm glad that you talk about that. It's funny because we started this

00:08:40.160 podcast and movement six years ago, as of what's today is today, the 25th as of yesterday was our

00:08:45.920 six year anniversary. Yeah. Happy birthday. Thank you. Thank you very much. And, uh, I never in a,

00:08:53.620 in a million years would have imagined that the conversations we'd be having would be so impactful

00:08:58.460 and powerful, but I think it's a testament to what you're saying is that men recognize that there's

00:09:04.140 something wrong. Men want to improve themselves. They want to get better. They want to step more fully

00:09:09.720 into masculinity, but it isn't a topic that is mainstream. Although we see that conversation

00:09:15.580 swelling and I'm glad to be part of it and honored to be able to, to be in the battle with you actually.

00:09:20.220 Yeah. Yeah. You guys are killing it. And there's guys like you out there that are,

00:09:25.100 that are trying to follow suit. It's it, there's a good story going on. And I think guys would be

00:09:32.400 encouraged just to know that. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. You know, one of the things that you've

00:09:37.340 talked quite a bit about recently is how, uh, the, the fallout and the reaction to COVID I'm very

00:09:43.260 hesitant to say COVID itself is the problem as much as the, the reaction to COVID is the problem.

00:09:49.980 So, I mean, we can discuss that, but it seems to me that the fallout and reaction to COVID has

00:09:54.100 created some real problems for men. And I, I think you would attest and agree to that. Can you explain 1.00

00:09:58.060 that? Yeah, it's been pretty bad. If you watched like literally one month after lockdown a year ago,

00:10:05.520 domestic violence went through the roof, they had to build shelters in Paris for women and children.

00:10:13.600 And, and, you know, and in China, which had the first wave of lockdown and all that the day they

00:10:19.500 released quarantine, they let, they let people back out of their apartments, the divorce offices

00:10:25.080 were overwhelmed. So guys locked at home, like that's brutal on a man. It's it's, you take a wild

00:10:32.360 horse and you put them in a styrofoam box, you know, he just, he's going to go nuts. And so, yeah,

00:10:38.160 drug use was up and depression and anxiety and domestic violence, that kind of thing. I, I think

00:10:44.320 I call it the pandemic. It's not, you know, as a generic term for the economy, the lockdowns,

00:10:50.580 the quarantines, the politics, all of it, all that's happened to the world, um, in the last year,

00:10:56.360 I think has been tougher on men than on women. Why do you say that is because women are, 0.99

00:11:03.020 are, uh, relational women want to be around other women. In fact, I think, well, I don't know,

00:11:09.560 maybe I'm wrong. You can correct me if I am, I am, but generally speaking, I think women are, 1.00

00:11:14.120 are more relational than men, or at least we know it differently. No, no, no, no question.

00:11:21.120 They are wired for it. They are relationally, you know, they need a, they need a larger relation,

00:11:27.480 relational snowshoe than guys need. You know, guy has one or two friends. He's, he's good. He's good.

00:11:33.500 Sure. Yeah. But a woman has an entire relational network going on, but here's, here's what happened. 1.00

00:11:39.780 Um, I think several things. One is guys love to fix things. I seriously, man, you, you fix your car,

00:11:50.500 you fix the dishwasher, man, you feel like a hero and you feel good. You feel proud and excited about

00:11:55.980 what you accomplished. Okay. So funny story. My kids are having their kitchen remodeled and,

00:12:00.700 and, uh, the, you know, and they had, they had the crew over there and they're doing the countertops

00:12:06.000 and that kind of thing. And, um, I was over just sort of help wherever I could vacuum cleaners

00:12:11.420 broken. I'm watching all these guys working with tools and being real men. You know, I'm like, Hey,

00:12:16.820 I'll fix the vacuum cleaner, uh, which I did. And I felt like a million bucks. I'm like, I am the guy

00:12:23.840 who fixed the vacuum cleaner. Thank you very much. Like, okay. I made all of this happen.

00:12:29.700 Come on. This is it. Guys love to fix stuff. We love to make a difference. We love to set things

00:12:36.960 right. When things are jacked up, if we can step in and make it right, we feel like the man. Okay.

00:12:43.960 This is really, really, really, which is why failure, by the way, we can get off on the rabbit

00:12:48.140 trails, but failure for men is the worst fear ever. You're a failure. So when we kill it, when we win, 0.98

00:12:55.640 when we fix it, when we make a difference, okay, here's what happened to men. You take that, 0.86

00:13:00.740 that deep need. And we told men go home and do nothing. Right. Right. It was emasculating.

00:13:08.780 You're not an essential worker. You're not really needed for this. And you saw all this anger. I felt

00:13:15.860 it in myself because nobody liked what was happening to the world. We're like, this is messed up,

00:13:21.740 but we didn't know what to do about it. And it, it, you know, it didn't feel like the kind of thing

00:13:27.400 you could just go out and fix. Right. It's like, you're going to go change your oil filter. You

00:13:31.080 know, it's like, and so this anger welled up and thus the, you know, domestic violence and the

00:13:36.980 drinking and all that kind of stuff. That's why I think it was harder on men is that you, you take,

00:13:42.880 you take this warrior who's made to like intervene and you tell him, sorry, there's nothing you can do.

00:13:50.900 Just go home. Yeah. I mean, I see what you're saying, but my question about that is warriors

00:13:57.440 don't ask for permission. You know, we don't, we don't sit on the sidelines and, and, oh, I guess,

00:14:04.860 I guess I'm not in the battle anymore. I guess, uh, you know, there's nothing for me to do. Like,

00:14:08.680 wouldn't we find something to do? I feel like I've done that. I feel like millions of men who I

00:14:14.560 interact with throughout the past six years would say, yeah, I just, I just went out there and asserted

00:14:20.040 myself, but I've seen a lot of guys retreat voluntarily, or they're told you can do this.

00:14:25.680 You can't do this. You got to behave this way. You got to behave that way. And then actually

00:14:29.000 acquiesce to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So now we're talking about different profiles of guys

00:14:37.160 and also different situations. I mean, when you, when you literally lost your job and, and you

00:14:43.440 couldn't go out and look for work and you're sitting at home in your kitchen, on your laptop,

00:14:48.000 trying to get something done, you know, that is really crushing. Sure. That that's brutal.

00:14:53.360 And then you've got guys like you who are like, I don't care what the world says. I'm going to go

00:14:58.180 make a difference somehow. I'm going to go engage something. Those guys are doing pretty well.

00:15:04.140 And those are the guys that went out and ran every day or, or got in the woods. Those are the guys that

00:15:08.880 kept a healthy rhythm to their life. Right. Yeah. And, and there's a spectrum of guys, you know,

00:15:15.220 who were able to, or not able to, and who it, you know, it worked great for the first

00:15:20.460 six months, but it's not going so good now. Yeah. It's just hard to maintain that. Right.

00:15:25.920 It is. If you don't have a support unit, and I know you're huge on this is making sure that you

00:15:30.200 have other guys in your corner. And I'll give you an anecdote from my own personal life.

00:15:34.580 I go to jujitsu every single, well, just about every day. I go five days a week.

00:15:41.100 That's a support structure that has accountability built into it. Like I don't, yes, I get to decide

00:15:48.080 sure, but not really because if I don't go, somebody is going to message me and say, Hey,

00:15:52.140 where were you tonight? Yeah. And so I go, and that's a minor accountability structure built into

00:15:57.920 it that allows me to continue the repetition that I've been on. Yep. Yep. I think that's huge. Okay.

00:16:03.460 So now we're back to why was it rough for on men than on women? I think it has been. And it's

00:16:09.060 because the natural places, most of the gyms closed, right? Most of the, most of the bars closed

00:16:15.620 and guys didn't, you know, weren't able to connect with their pals. Their travel was cut off. You know,

00:16:22.200 some of my best friends are literally out of the country, you know, and we weren't able to get

00:16:26.820 together this year and go fishing or hunting or the kind of the things that we do. So I think that

00:16:32.480 whereas women, when their relational networks got messed up, they, they just got online. They, 1.00

00:16:39.200 they got on zoom groups and they got on FaceTime and right. And, and WhatsApp and they kind of kept

00:16:45.360 it going. But guys, I think really did get isolated because, you know, they normally hung out at the

00:16:51.940 gym or maybe it was backyard barbecues on the game on Sunday. Well, the games were all canceled.

00:16:56.860 Right. Leagues shut down. Right. Right. Yeah. And that's ramping back up,

00:17:03.840 you know, and things are healing on that, but guys do need to get out of the isolation.

00:17:08.860 Yeah, I agree. And it, you know, you talk about women getting on zoom and connecting that way. 0.93

00:17:13.280 And I think I'm speaking in generalities here, but I think women are better at 1.00

00:17:17.240 not necessarily needing direction to converse. It's circular, it's back and forth. And I think

00:17:24.260 men are more directional. So, uh, take jujitsu for example. Well, we're, we're fighting each other.

00:17:30.380 There's an objective, right? Or you take hunting. I think I see some elk sheds up there over your,

00:17:35.920 your right shoulder. Maybe, you know, there you go. There you go. There's a purpose. You go with

00:17:42.920 your buddies and it's not, you're not just talking like that sounds weird to me. Actually. I don't

00:17:48.080 want to sit and talk. I want to go figure out how we can communicate to go kill that caribou or that 0.99

00:17:52.640 elk. And it's very directional as opposed to circular congregational. I don't know the right term

00:17:58.920 to use. Yeah. Well, you've just tapped on why the church has not seen a large number of men

00:18:06.300 increase in their congregations. Men are dropping off, you know, in large numbers because

00:18:12.660 guys don't want to just sit around in a circle and talk. They want to go do something together,

00:18:19.280 right? Let's, you know, let's go fix cars. Let's go ride mountain bikes. Let's, let's go on an epic

00:18:25.400 trip. And if you'll do that, guys will talk. Absolutely. We get, yeah, man, you get killer

00:18:31.460 conversations on a road trip. So how do you suggest that a man who feels isolated, who feels remote

00:18:41.160 begin to work this in, in the wake of still some, some lockdowns and some restrictions. Again,

00:18:48.000 I'm of the mindset, you know what, just go do it. If you want to go to jujitsu, I guarantee there's

00:18:52.080 an underground jujitsu somewhere despite the lockdowns and I guarantee there is. Yeah. But

00:18:58.020 what is the guy who feels isolated do for himself? Yeah. You don't need a gang right now. You need one

00:19:05.780 dude. Find one dude is willing to go do something, right? Go bike every week, right? I mean, the gyms

00:19:13.320 are opening back up, things like that. Go to the batting cages, just something, right? One guy is

00:19:18.580 all you need right now to break the isolation. Have you found that men, I agree with that. Have you

00:19:24.740 found that men struggle because, well, let me give you an example. Let's say that John, you and I were in

00:19:31.300 the same area. And I thought, you know, I'd really like to connect with John, but I think a lot of men

00:19:36.200 have a little bit of awkwardness. Like I call you up. I'm like, Hey, let's go to the, to the driving

00:19:40.580 range and let's go hit some balls. And like, I'm asking you on a date almost. Yeah. So I think guys

00:19:45.620 have some struggle with that. Have you found that to be true? Oh, totally bad. Totally. Yeah. This is why

00:19:52.140 I think one of the most helpful categories for men is the category of courage. Like, because while at heart,

00:20:01.300 and the whole movement around that, you know, guys, we get a lot of feedback from guys and guys who come

00:20:07.000 to our events and go, Oh, I actually connect with this. I thought you had to be a lumberjack to dig

00:20:12.000 this stuff, you know? Right. Right. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The, you know, the, the core

00:20:17.300 issues are issues of courage and strength and intentionality. It takes a lot of courage to have a

00:20:27.640 child. Like you want to jump off the deep end in your life. Like you choose to have a child that

00:20:33.540 is, you know, it takes a lot of courage to change jobs, change careers. It takes a lot of courage to

00:20:39.700 do what you did, which is, Hey, I'm just going to go chase this dream. I want to do this. I'm

00:20:43.860 going to make it happen. Like that takes courage. So it takes courage to reach out to another guy

00:20:50.880 and say, Hey man, you want to do something? You want to hang out? You want to just come to my,

00:20:55.620 come to my back deck and we'll just have beers. Like it doesn't need to be big. Right. Some of

00:21:01.420 the adventures are not going to open up for us yet. Right. But, but some of the smaller stuff can.

00:21:08.120 Yeah. It's a good point. I think we, we make it grander than it needs to be. And we place too much

00:21:12.800 emphasis. I had a friend of mine who I train with a jujitsu with, and he called me up. This was about

00:21:17.680 a month ago, maybe a little longer. And he said, Hey man, I just got a new bow and I know you have

00:21:21.520 some targets at your house. Do you mind if I come over this weekend and shoot? Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:26.000 Come shoot. And in the meantime, we developed and we nurtured and fostered our relationship by having

00:21:30.920 conversations in between shots, but it, but it wasn't this big, imposing, awkward, intimidating

00:21:39.060 thing. It was like, let's just shoot some bows and arrows. And, and that's all it was. And it was

00:21:44.660 a great opportunity for us to connect at a deeper level. Yeah, that's really good. And, and,

00:21:49.700 and notice the difference. He didn't say, Hey, can I come over and talk? Right. Right. Yeah. It's

00:21:56.020 do something. It helps to suggest, let's go do something. Let's go ride. You know, let's go try

00:22:02.100 these new mountain e-bikes. I want to try one of those. Let's go do some, do something together.

00:22:07.820 Right. And if you can, like the guys listening to you, if you want a killer mission, start something

00:22:14.360 for dudes right now, right? Start a regular Saturday afternoon. Hey, we're shooting bows

00:22:20.600 at my house. And even if you'd never shot, come on over and we'll teach you. We'll teach you how to

00:22:24.240 shoot a bow. Like, seriously, you will be throwing a lifeline to guys. If you start something like that.

00:22:31.800 Well, and not only throwing a lifeline to other men, which is valuable, but a lifeline to yourself,

00:22:36.300 like start fixing yourself, start, start. You want to fix, like you talked about earlier,

00:22:40.820 get yourself in the position where you can be around other guys. So you can fix your own life

00:22:44.680 because these guys are going to share things with you that you would not have learned otherwise.

00:22:48.640 Yep. Big time. One of the things that you also talk about is the uniqueness of the masculine soul

00:22:56.240 and how this, you use the term pandemic, which I, if I understand you correctly is all encompassing

00:23:03.620 between the politics and the virus and the global jackup. Right. Right. So what

00:23:10.740 is it about the uniqueness of our soul that makes this challenging for us?

00:23:17.800 Um, okay. A couple of things. One, the warrior within men, men know there's some kind of battle

00:23:25.000 going on. We're just not quite sure which battle it is and, and how to fight it. So you saw all the

00:23:32.640 anger in American politics, you know, in, in the fall, right? I mean, it was, I think it was the

00:23:37.700 most angry presidential race I've ever seen. I agree. Sure. Yeah. People on both sides were just

00:23:43.740 pissed off. I think that that's a symptom of I'm a warrior. I'm made to fight something. I just don't

00:23:51.160 know what it is. So that's really hard on a guy when his, when his mission isn't clear,

00:23:58.760 his battle isn't clear. But the other thing is we've been talking about adventure. Adventure is not just

00:24:06.440 having fun. Adventure is literally food for the masculine soul. And adventure has got a lot of

00:24:14.080 different scales to it. You know, you talked about going down to the driving range, you know, that

00:24:17.720 you've got that daily, weekly stuff that just nourishes you. Right. But, but there are higher

00:24:22.540 level levels of adventure. It's the changing the career. It's the, you know, moving towns, that kind of

00:24:30.560 thing. Chasing a dream. Right. There are higher levels of adventure for your life. So much of that

00:24:36.620 got shut down as well. So we, so he didn't know what battle to fight. Most of his adventure got taken

00:24:42.380 away. That's like, it's like a famine for the masculine soul. Right. And then, and then the third 0.92

00:24:50.600 core desire is, is the beauty, the woman, the beauty, love, romance, intimacy, and, you know,

00:25:00.160 marriages that were actually fairly okay. While both of them were not with each other all day.

00:25:05.560 Yeah. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Right. Oh man. You got tossed into the same apartment

00:25:10.500 for all those months. Like that was rough. That was rough. And, and, and if you made it through it,

00:25:17.120 like kudos guys, way to go. Cause we're not designed for that. We're actually not designed to live in a

00:25:25.060 single apartment with a woman for 24 seven. It's just guys meant to get out. They're meant to do 1.00

00:25:31.300 stuff. They're meant to be with other guys, you know? So those, isn't that funny? What, one of the

00:25:37.240 things I think about is you're talking about living with women. One of the first things to go when a man 1.00

00:25:42.800 gets into a deeply committed relationship is his friendships. He turns all of his heart and

00:25:49.380 attention towards his wife, which is actually, and I know you're, I know you're a Christian is,

00:25:55.500 is actually a biblical principle, right? You, you, you cling to her and no other.

00:25:59.800 Uh, but then we let our friendships and our hobbies go. Those are the first things to go.

00:26:04.540 And we think, well, this is right. This is what we should be doing. And it actually isn't,

00:26:09.640 it's detrimental to the relationship. It's kind of ironic, but it is detrimental to the relationship.

00:26:14.720 That's actually where I got into a lot of trouble early on in my relationship is I ditched my

00:26:19.320 friends. I ditched my hobbies. I gave it all to her. I burned out. I burned her out. And then we

00:26:24.340 went through a separation and near divorce. Fortunately, we, we reconciled and fixed things,

00:26:28.280 but it was a recipe for disaster for us. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, you can't be her everything

00:26:37.540 and she can't be your everything. And let me tell you guys, you do not want to be her best friend.

00:26:42.960 She needs a best friend. You need to be her man. You need to be her husband. You need to be her

00:26:50.080 lover, but you don't want to be her best friend. You don't want to be her counselor. Okay. Like she's

00:26:55.540 got to have other relational supports in her life. And so do you. And, and yeah, that's huge. A lot

00:27:01.560 of guys make that mistake or they make the mistake that, um, I'm going to, I'm going to veer off and

00:27:09.020 pick up a whole bunch of our conversation right now in one like net. So a man's search for validation

00:27:16.580 is probably the fundamental search of his life. Every single day, we're looking for an answer to

00:27:24.340 the question, do I have what it takes and it, in our work, in our hobbies, in our finances,

00:27:32.680 in our health, in our body, right? We're constantly looking for that sense of I'm killing it. I'm the

00:27:40.280 man. I have what it takes. Right. And so when you take away validation from a man in a lot of areas of

00:27:47.240 his life, he's not going to thrive. Right. So he loses his job or it gets weird and he's on zoom

00:27:53.520 meetings. My poor pals, I got pals who are working eight hours a day on mine. Oh yeah. I cannot

00:28:00.780 imagine what that would be like miserable. Oh, it's going to, it's going to mess you up. Like

00:28:04.880 you, the human brain can't take that. And, and we, you know, golf on that rabbit trail, but that's

00:28:09.520 just really harmful. Okay. So you, you take away all that validation and then he turns to his wife

00:28:14.560 and he's looking for her to validate him. That is not going to go well. Right. You do not

00:28:20.260 look to the woman for your validation. Okay. You bring to her strength. You don't try and get

00:28:27.260 your strength from her. Does that make sense? Yes. Where does, where does your strength

00:28:32.560 derive from? When I hear validation, I think what I would immediately jump towards is external

00:28:38.640 validation, not necessarily internal. So can you walk me through where that validation

00:28:43.540 ought to be coming from if it isn't coming from your woman? 0.95

00:28:46.380 Yeah. It's both. It is both. Of course it comes externally. Of course it does. We're

00:28:51.000 not entirely like spiritual creatures. Um, but there is an internal world that every man

00:28:56.040 has as well. And the internal world is always the deepest action. Right. So let, let's look

00:29:02.340 at boys for, for a moment. So the journey from boy to man is a journey that was meant to be

00:29:09.140 a journey of initiation. How did you get into jujitsu? Uh, I had a friend reach out to me.

00:29:19.160 And in fact, he was a business partner. We we've done a lot of events and things like that together.

00:29:22.740 And I've been interested in it. He said, why don't you come? And we went and I went to my first

00:29:26.620 class and second class and here I am three years deep into this thing. Yeah. And what would you say

00:29:31.260 it's done for you? Well, it's making me more capable. I think that's the lowest hanging fruit,

00:29:37.480 but also if I were to think about a deeper, it's definitely given me a level of confidence.

00:29:42.700 It's established a brotherhood that I don't think I would have had any other way.

00:29:48.040 It's given me discipline, accountability. These are some of the things besides the fighting

00:29:54.820 capabilities of it. Oh yeah. Right. Right. Sure. It's just fun. You know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,

00:29:59.720 for sure. Oh yeah. Okay. So that experience that you just described, physical engagement that

00:30:07.460 was building confidence, that was building a deeper sense of self, that was building a sense

00:30:12.800 of connection with other men. Right. Didn't talk about doing it with other women. This isn't a 0.59

00:30:17.900 ladies group, right? It's a, okay. All right. So from boyhood to man, the boy is meant to be 0.97

00:30:24.400 initiated like that through a series of experiences in the masculine community. Okay. Definitely dad, 0.66

00:30:33.740 but not just dad, because dad can't handle all that. It's his baseball coach. It's his math teacher,

00:30:40.020 right? It's his uncle that takes him snowboarding. It's, it's the masculine community. The boy learns 0.97

00:30:47.460 over time that he has what it takes. Is it, he has a series of experiences and affirmations,

00:30:55.080 setbacks, failures, you bet. But, but if someone's there to help him interpret those failures, he gets

00:31:01.720 back up, he tries again, he recalibrates, right? And he develops a kind of internal settledness.

00:31:10.540 I know who I am. I know who I am. And I, and I know that I can handle what life throws at me.

00:31:16.860 Okay. Most men do not get that. Most boys did not have that growing up. And so they are still

00:31:24.800 searching for that. And, and so if they're killing it at work, they become the workaholic because

00:31:31.100 that's the one place that that sense of, I know who I am is coming, right? Yeah. Yeah. So this is

00:31:39.800 the journey for every guy. If he's good at sports, he gravitates towards sports. If he's a long distance

00:31:44.300 runner, he's looking for that deep sense of he's solid inside, right? He's, he's good. And he doesn't

00:31:54.240 need the woman to affirm him as a man. And this is the, this is the fascinating key to pornography. 0.57

00:32:02.360 Pornography is not primarily about sex. It isn't that beauty when she is quote, offering herself to 0.75

00:32:11.160 you, although it's kind of bizarre because she's offering herself to a million other men.

00:32:14.300 Yeah. Not to, not to you. Right. Sure. Somebody else. Yeah. But your brain doesn't get that. Like

00:32:18.660 in that moment, you feel like I'm the man because you feel alive as a man. Right. There's so many

00:32:26.940 deep issues of validation in it, but when you know who you are as a man, you look at that stuff and

00:32:32.000 just go, man, that's artificial. It's not even real. Like, give me a real woman for heaven's sakes and 0.99

00:32:36.880 a real woman that I'm in relationship with. Not just, you know, you see how that goes. The less validated 0.99

00:32:42.660 you are, the more taken out you are by the substitute.

00:32:47.020 Man, I know you're riveted by the conversation we're having. I just got to pause it real quick,

00:32:51.920 quick time out. One of the types of questions that I'm asked all the time is what I've called

00:32:58.360 the one thing question. If you could have one conversation, if there was one skill to develop,

00:33:04.220 if there was one thing you wish you'd known. Now, normally, not only do I not like answering this

00:33:10.140 question, I hate answering this question because it's never just one thing. If it was, everybody

00:33:16.800 would be successful and all their wildest dreams would come true. It's never just one thing. It's

00:33:22.820 a combination of things, but inside our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council this month, we're

00:33:29.720 talking about designing your mind. And if there ever was in the history of man, just one thing

00:33:35.480 required for your success, it would be getting your mind, right? So this month for the month of May,

00:33:41.820 we're going to be covering everything from our own cognitive biases, defining our values and what's

00:33:48.860 important to us, exploring the concept of wisdom, which is ultimately applied knowledge and developing

00:33:55.960 self mastery and control, also known as discipline. So if you're ready to get your mind, right.

00:34:02.880 And you want to enjoy all the blessings and abundance that come with the right mindset,

00:34:07.080 then join us inside the iron council for good conversations, powerful camaraderie,

00:34:13.620 and ultimately the systematic accountability that you need to achieving the results that you desire.

00:34:21.420 You can learn more and you can join us at order of man.com slash iron council. Again,

00:34:26.540 that's order of man.com slash iron council. Do that right after the conversation,

00:34:30.820 because right now we're getting back to it with John.

00:34:35.320 Hmm. And I also think it's very easy. You know, I talk about pornography, for example,

00:34:39.860 it's easier to, to turn on your computer than it is to woo a woman. Yeah. No, like, 1.00

00:34:45.820 so sometimes we're always going to take those paths of least resistance.

00:34:50.020 Totally. Yeah, exactly.

00:34:52.240 So how does a man who's let's say 40 years old, and these are the types of messages I get,

00:34:57.640 I'm sure you get these messages as well. I didn't have a dad growing up. I never learned

00:35:03.280 these things. I'm trying to figure this out now. And he's four decades into this thing we call life.

00:35:07.660 And he's never had this quote unquote initiation. Is this something that he has to create for himself

00:35:13.840 that he has to, I don't want to say manufacturer, but I think you understand the point that he has

00:35:18.200 to, he has to build up himself. No, he, he does need to engage men and passivity never go together.

00:35:30.940 The, the, the, the, the take no action never works with a guy. You do have to engage. Like your friend

00:35:38.300 said, can I come shoot bows? Yes, you can. And then something cool happened. He took a step.

00:35:43.060 He engaged, right? Sure. Right. Right. Uh, you know, you got the invitation to go to jujitsu

00:35:47.900 that first time, but you had to engage, but I had to choose. I'm going. Okay. So you do need to

00:35:53.300 engage, but I, we got to put this in a context for a minute. Um, because I am a Christian, I believe

00:36:02.860 that you have a father, that there is a father who loves you deeply and was actually always meant

00:36:12.020 to be your father. You know, some of us got good dads. Some of us got bad dads. Some of us got just

00:36:18.660 okay dads. My dad was an alcoholic. He totally blew the family up and I was not that initiated young

00:36:24.820 man. I began with a process of initiation, but then it got totally stolen from me when my dad blew up

00:36:30.960 the family. So the process of initiation was some element of relationship with him. Got it. Okay.

00:36:37.980 Yeah. Cause it starts with the dad, right? Boy looks to his father for two things,

00:36:42.620 love and validation. Do you love me, dad? And do I have what it takes? And depending on how that got

00:36:49.900 answered in your life has really shaped you into who you are today. Okay. So I interrupt right here

00:36:57.540 real quick because I've got my own children. We could talk. I could go on so many different

00:37:01.780 tangents. I've got my own children. I've got three boys and a little girl. Is it appropriate

00:37:06.620 if the boy, I've got a son, he's turning 13 tomorrow. Is it appropriate if the boy is trying

00:37:13.800 to answer the question, uh, do I have what it takes for the father to either verbally or non-verbally

00:37:20.400 communicate? No, you don't, but you can, you see what I'm saying? Like, does that crush a boy's

00:37:28.640 spirit to say, no, you actually don't have what it takes, but let me show you how.

00:37:33.940 Well, um, I would say only in the context of love because discipline and correction that takes place

00:37:48.240 in the context of love strengthens and guides a boy discipline and correction that takes place

00:37:56.160 without love, like just in the context of anger or irritation or, Hey, come on, man, get your act

00:38:02.500 together. You're effing it up, dude. What are you doing? You know, that kind of thing, right? No,

00:38:08.120 that, that, that does not help, man. That stuff is, that's crushing stuff.

00:38:12.480 Phil, turn through the con, the context of love that I'm here to serve you. I care about you.

00:38:18.240 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you got the young guy wants to do flips on the trampoline. Right. And you're

00:38:22.320 like, Whoa, Whoa, timeout pal. Like we're not jumping off the balcony yet. Right. We're going

00:38:27.240 to start with, we're going to start with flips that I help you with. Right. And then you'll do flips on

00:38:32.760 your own and then you can jump off the balcony. Right. Got it. Yeah. But the little guy's a wild guy.

00:38:37.860 And if he's an adolescent, he's a really wild guy. And so, yeah, of course that needs to be shaped,

00:38:42.960 guided, directed, but it's in the context of, I am here for you. Right. So you asked me guy,

00:38:51.860 40 years old, writes into you, calls in and says, Hey, you know, I'm, I'm sideways. I didn't get any

00:38:57.240 of this stuff. What do I do? I would say there's two things that you have to deal with. You have to

00:39:02.240 deal with your relationship with your father. You have to, what was that like? And, and, and what was

00:39:10.860 his message to you growing up? You have to deal with that stuff. You can't just ignore that. That'll

00:39:16.940 haunt you the rest of your life. And you need to pick up the journey. And now we're back to the

00:39:23.560 engagement piece about not with everything, not all at once. One thing, just pick one thing. What's

00:39:31.200 your frontier? Wow. I've never, I always wanted to be a runner. I'm not a runner that will then start

00:39:37.320 there. Okay. There's running clubs in every single town. You can find that. Right. Or, or you're like,

00:39:43.220 gosh, I've always wanted to start my own company. Like, well, you know, look into that, start chasing

00:39:49.180 that dream, make a business plan, make a model, talk to some friends, talk to some entrepreneurs,

00:39:54.100 pick one thing. Don't try and fix your entire life. Okay. Right. Your initiation journey takes place

00:40:01.380 one step at a time. Right. And, and, and this, you know, just let me give a shameless shout out what

00:40:07.820 you should do. You should read wild at heart. That's what you should do. It'll change your life,

00:40:12.600 man. It'll provide so much guidance for you. I will, I will attest to that. And it isn't

00:40:18.800 hyperbole. Yeah. We hear that a lot. Oh, this thing will change your life. I saw an ad on Instagram

00:40:23.440 today. This app will change your life. And my knee jerk reaction is, I mean, really like how much could an

00:40:29.240 app change my life, you know, but we say that, right. And we say it in hyperbole and we try to

00:40:35.620 make it bigger than it is. But I remember reading wild at heart for the very first time. And one of

00:40:40.260 the most frustrating things, I remember this specifically, I was reading it on an airplane

00:40:44.540 and I left the dang thing. I got about a third of the way through on the airport or on the airplane.

00:40:50.440 And I left the dang thing in the seat cushion or the seat pouch or whatever right there. And I walked

00:40:55.600 off and I was so frustrated because I was really digging the book and I left it there. So I hope

00:41:00.500 somebody else picked it up and got some value from it, but I had to wait for my next copy to come to

00:41:05.260 me, but it quite literally transformed my life. That is not hyperbole. Yeah. Yeah. And now there's

00:41:11.200 this cool thing. I do want to tell guys about it. Um, so last year during the pandemic, we were able to

00:41:16.980 pull off this film series. We made this six part film series for guys. It's free. It's online and it's

00:41:24.940 called the wild at heart experience. And it will walk you through the core categories

00:41:29.660 of validation, initiation, beauty, love women, all that stuff. Uh, it's called the wild at heart

00:41:36.960 experience. It's on our website at wildatheart.org. You can sign up for that. It's free. And these kinds

00:41:43.760 of resources are the sorts of things you should reach out to. Like, don't just try and pull yourself

00:41:49.600 up by, by your own. That doesn't work, man. Like find some resources in your life that can

00:41:56.240 give you that internal guidance that you need and can give you a context, you know, like a running

00:42:01.300 club or a jujitsu gym or, you know, a dojo or whatever you need, like find a context to live

00:42:07.180 that stuff out. I think the, I think one of the reasons men struggle with this so much is because

00:42:13.360 they interpret reaching out, whether it's one of these organizations or activities, or even

00:42:19.480 some sort of therapy or coaching session or conference or event that they can attend is that

00:42:26.220 they interpret it as weakness, not as strength. And they want themselves to be strong. Of course,

00:42:32.000 to answer the question, do I have what it takes? And if they're thinking they have to go out and reach

00:42:36.240 out to somebody, then the answer is no, I don't have what it takes. I need help.

00:42:39.140 Exactly. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Yes. That's why I raised the issue of courage, because taking

00:42:49.660 choices to engage your healing journey requires enormous courage. And therefore you are, you are

00:43:02.080 a man. If you make a phone call to see a counselor, holy cow, man, I take my shoes off. That is so

00:43:08.660 freaking courageous. That's amazing. Like, yeah, you're, you're acknowledging a need, but look at

00:43:14.420 the courage that it took to take that stuff. That's huge. Or go to that conference, read that book,

00:43:20.220 hook up with those guys, you know, and go to the batting cages or whatever. Like that is courage guys.

00:43:26.460 That's courage. And the weakness piece. Look, fellas, we just got to all admit right now,

00:43:33.740 we are partial men. We are men on our way. There is a lot of undeveloped man in us. There are a lot of

00:43:46.840 uninitiated places, unhealed places in us. That is true for every single guy on the planet. So you're

00:43:55.280 not alone in that. Every guy is broken. Everybody, every guy has got a journey to take. And the guy

00:44:03.440 who won't admit that is the guy, his life is not going to go well.

00:44:10.380 Yeah. I used to believe, especially one of the darkest times of my life is when what I alluded

00:44:14.720 to earlier, my wife and I went through a separation and I used to believe to a degree in my own mind,

00:44:19.740 that I had made this thing up, that I was, you know, the only person that had ever experienced

00:44:23.740 this, that my situation was unique and nobody else understood what I was going through.

00:44:30.040 And I think part of the reason that you've had so much success and we've had a relative amount of

00:44:34.740 success as well is because we're, we're drawing light to the fact that no man is an Island that

00:44:41.540 whatever you've experienced, whether it's a physical abuse, sexual abuse, a separation with your

00:44:47.900 wife, addiction, bankruptcies, medical conditions, whatever it could be. There are millions and

00:44:55.060 millions of other men who have experienced what you're experiencing and are either on the same

00:45:02.600 part of the path or maybe further down the path, but we don't have to be an Island. We can do it

00:45:06.600 together. And I think that's why we're seeing so much success with what we're doing.

00:45:11.280 Yeah. Yeah. Right on. That's just such, that's so good. I love that.

00:45:15.660 So one of my favorite quotes that you, that you've ever said, I say this all the time. The guys hear

00:45:23.360 me say it and they're probably rolling their eyes. Cause they're like, okay, he's going to say this

00:45:25.580 again, deep in his heart, deep, here it is deep in his heart. Every man longs for battle to fight

00:45:30.000 and adventure to live in a beauty to rescue. You had talked about that a second ago.

00:45:34.700 So the battle component, I I've come to the, to the realization that people aren't selecting the

00:45:42.240 right battles. And so we're making up dumb things, trivial things to worry about. We're arguing about

00:45:48.160 non-issues because we don't actually have a meaningful battle. I felt that way until I

00:45:54.080 started doing this work. And I feel like I've found my battle in the Hill that I'm willing to

00:45:58.060 die on. I've planted my flag, but how does a man begin to explore and identify what his particular

00:46:04.240 battle is? Well, some of that stuff's already coming at you guys. Like some of those battles,

00:46:10.620 you don't get to pick, you know, the wife, the wife just said she's done with you or your 16 year 1.00

00:46:16.780 old daughter's dating an idiot or, you know, uh, they're all idiots, right? I mean, that's gotta be 1.00

00:46:22.480 the case. Yeah. Right. So guys, some of the battles are just coming at you and, and those require

00:46:32.760 humility, courage, cunning, and somebody to help you process it. Right. You got your sideways with

00:46:42.020 your 16 year old daughter. Go talk to another dude. Who's got a daughter. Go. How'd you do it,

00:46:47.940 man? Well, this is what I'm facing. She didn't even want to talk to me. How'd you do it? Right.

00:46:53.100 Okay. So you got battles who are just, just coming at you. Sure. Right. Let's talk. Let's talk about

00:46:57.680 the higher thing. Okay. You also need some sort of purpose to your life, which is what you were

00:47:03.800 talking about with the show here and what you guys are doing. Here's a helpful category. Is it a big

00:47:11.360 story or a small story? I use that a lot when I'm looking at people's lives and

00:47:17.920 the things to just get people so wound up. I'm like, man, that is a really small story.

00:47:23.440 Yeah. Yeah. Right. You're like, I had a friend that used to say to me, is this going to matter

00:47:28.960 in the next, uh, you know, two hours and 99% of, of the time the answer was no. Then, and then

00:47:37.400 10 years. Yeah. And then she said, then don't worry about it. Just drop it, move on, drive on.

00:47:44.060 It's okay. Exactly. Get in a bigger story, guys, get in a bigger story. You are a warrior

00:47:49.580 for a reason. And the reason is on behalf of others. Again, this is one of the core lessons

00:47:56.200 of the masculine journey. You have a strength, but your strength is not for your happy little

00:48:03.460 life. It's not so you can get a bigger hot tub. Okay. Your, your strength, your masculinity,

00:48:10.160 your soul, everything that makes you, you, your passions, dreams, your ingenuity, who

00:48:14.980 you are is on behalf of other people. So who are you helping? Who are you fighting for?

00:48:21.880 What getting a bigger story?

00:48:26.000 What is, so when you talk about this warrior and finding this bigger story, I think warrior

00:48:33.500 is an interesting term because it's so often used and misconstrued and, and, and, and

00:48:38.620 manipulated and massaged and marketed. So everybody says, you're a warrior. Well, is every man a

00:48:45.200 warrior? You know, is that an archetype? Is that just an overused word? It helped me understand that

00:48:51.800 this warrior spirit or archetyper, or, or element of masculinity that you're talking about here.

00:48:57.440 Yeah. Cause not everybody feels like a warrior. You know, I've talked with plenty of men who are,

00:49:01.620 who would consider themselves maybe more artistic, for example, and I'm like, I'm not a warrior. I'm an

00:49:07.240 artist. And I think that's great. Yeah. Help me understand that.

00:49:10.960 My son. Yeah. My son is finishing his MFA in poetry. Okay. Right. Right. He also, he also has

00:49:17.480 his black belt, but he's a really, really sensitive kid and he's a poet and that's what he wants to

00:49:24.140 do and be and teach and bring to the world. I'm telling you, finishing grad school is going to take

00:49:29.700 every bit of warrior in him. Right. Finish a book. That's going to take a warrior. Right. Stand up to

00:49:37.640 your boss about some moral things going on in your company. That's going to take the warrior. Like,

00:49:43.140 and let me get this really practical. Every day you face a battle of the thoughts going through your

00:49:52.440 head every day, every guy. Right. And some guys, it's fear and anxiety. Other guys is depression

00:50:00.940 and discouragement. You suck at this. You suck at life. Right. Nobody wants what you got to offer. 1.00

00:50:06.960 You're not all that stuff. Right. Right. That's your first battle. That is your first battle. And you are

00:50:14.500 a warrior because you are going to have to fight that stuff. You are going to have to fight it off.

00:50:21.840 So our first battle every day is, what are you believing? What are you believing about yourself?

00:50:27.640 What are you believing about God and his love and care for you? What are you believing about the world?

00:50:35.380 Like, guys, you were born into a world at war. Nobody gets out of this. Nobody gets to escape it.

00:50:42.520 There is no Switzerland in this world. There's no neutral ground. You were in a full on war.

00:50:51.840 You got born into it. It's been going on for millennia. What you have is your first daily

00:50:57.600 fight is for your own heart. I like this. It's interesting. A lot of people, not a lot. I used

00:51:04.360 to get this when I started more than I do now, but people would say, you know, you're using these

00:51:09.500 terms warrior and battle and you're just trying to make it seem larger than it is or fear mongering.

00:51:15.540 That's when I get occasionally you're fear mongering. I look, I don't care what you interpret

00:51:20.520 that to be. I like the term battle because it, for whatever reason, it helps me realize the,

00:51:29.360 the, the ramifications of the choices that I'm making. It helps me come to the realization that I

00:51:35.900 need to put on armor and that I need to make myself capable. You know, there's a battle with

00:51:41.040 the alarm clock. There's a battle with, you know, before I get on a conversation with you,

00:51:45.900 do I spend some time and actually get prepared or do I, do I just wing it? You know, like everything

00:51:50.020 is a battle. And if I look at it and frame it in that context, it better equips me to do the things

00:51:55.600 that I know I ought to be doing. And frankly, the things I want to be doing, I want to be prepared.

00:52:00.800 I don't want to hit the snooze. I want to go into the gym. Those are the things I want to do.

00:52:05.060 Yeah. Yeah. Right on Ryan. That's good stuff. And let me tell you how the battle really helps.

00:52:13.220 When you realize that you are in a world at war and that the, the ancient fight of good and evil

00:52:19.760 is very, very real. And it's taking place against your head and your heart every day. It helps you

00:52:25.060 realize this isn't just you guys. You're not just a screw up. You know, you, the guy get, 0.99

00:52:30.800 the guy gets a dream. He's like, man, I'm going to, I'm going to open a running store. I love

00:52:35.580 running. I want to help other people run. I'm going to open a running, you know, a shoe store

00:52:38.880 and running shop kind of thing. And it doesn't go well. And he's like, well, I guess I just suck

00:52:42.920 at life. You go, no, no, no, man. It was opposed. Your dreams are opposed. Your friendships are opposed. 0.99

00:52:49.640 Your marriage is opposed. Guys, the good news about this is it's not just you, your setbacks,

00:52:58.040 your struggles, your addictions. It's not just you. You're in a war. It really helps take some

00:53:04.760 of the shame off of it. When you begin to realize, whoa, hang on a second, man. Like this isn't just

00:53:11.220 me not being able to get up and exercise today. Like there is, there are forces set against my life.

00:53:18.160 Hmm. And, and that, that calls a man out. It calls him up. It really does.

00:53:25.720 Well, and I think it also equips them with, with the, a realistic picture that it isn't going to go

00:53:30.780 easy. You know, one of the things that's such a pet peeve of mine as a Christian myself, when I hear

00:53:35.540 people say, well, you know, it'll work if it's God's will. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:53:42.120 No. He, God wants you to be happy. He wants you to be successful. He wants you to thrive. Yes, of

00:53:47.740 course. I'm not doubting that. It isn't, it isn't entirely up to him. Just like me as a father who

00:53:55.680 wants my children to succeed. It doesn't mean that they're going to succeed because it's my will that

00:54:01.220 they do. They have a part to play in this thing. And yes, maybe it's God's will to see you thrive,

00:54:07.360 but that doesn't guarantee success. You are a, you are an actor in this thing. You are a player.

00:54:13.260 So act like it. Yeah, exactly. That's right. Let's shift, uh, let's shift topics here a little

00:54:21.100 bit and talk about boys because you've mentioned the boy crisis and, and, and I've had Dr. Leonard

00:54:26.300 Sachs, who I'm sure you're familiar with his work and Dr. Warren Farrell talk about, uh, these concepts

00:54:32.440 of, of, of how difficult I actually think it's going to be from, for, for our, for our children.

00:54:38.940 You know, I I'm, I'm almost 40 years old. I've been a father for nearly 13 years now. And I think

00:54:45.720 over the last 12 to 18 months is the first time that I've really feared for my children and their

00:54:54.220 ability to thrive in their own lives, the way that my wife and I have been able to in ours.

00:54:58.320 Yeah. Yeah. Tough times. Um, the boy crisis, so to speak, is largely centered around a couple of

00:55:10.160 things. It's the fatherlessness boys who don't have fathers or boys who have fathers who are checked

00:55:16.640 out, which is why the greatest gift that you give to the world. Carl Young had a fascinating line. He

00:55:22.820 said the greatest psychological impact of a parent on a child is the unlived life of the parent.

00:55:31.360 Hmm. You're, you're checked out, you're shut down. You're not alive. You're not caring for your own

00:55:38.320 heart. You are not living intentionally, joyfully, purposefully. That's going to have a huge impact

00:55:46.660 on your kids. So that's a challenge because I think what a lot of guys believe themselves to

00:55:52.260 believe, and I call these noble obstacles, which isn't my term. I've heard that somewhere

00:55:55.740 that they'll, they'll excuse taking care of themselves because they love their kids and they

00:56:04.020 want to be with their kids or they want to serve their families. And so, you know, I can't go,

00:56:07.800 I've heard people say this verbatim. Well, I would really like to go to the gym, but you know,

00:56:11.720 I'm just too busy with my kids. And so they come first as if it's some sort of dichotomy you have

00:56:16.740 to choose between your kids or yourself. Yeah. And life is crazy busy. So I get it.

00:56:22.880 No doubt. I mean, it's crazy busy, but you just got to consider that they are watching you

00:56:29.620 and they are learning what it means to be a mature human being and mature human beings do not neglect

00:56:37.760 affect their wellbeing. Right? So what are you modeling to your kids? I told a gal the other 1.00

00:56:43.800 day, I said, the greatest gift you can give to your daughter right now, who's really struggling.

00:56:47.360 I said, is that you go to counseling as her mom, not with her, you go because she needs to see

00:56:54.400 you set an example that caring for your inner life is a really high priority for human beings,

00:57:03.080 right? Show her the way, show her the way. And yeah. The other thing that's going on though,

00:57:10.420 is technology is, um, the amount of screen time, all of that. I'm, you know, you've had guests on

00:57:17.680 your show talking about that. Of course, in terms of parenting, healthy kids going forward. Um,

00:57:23.740 if I could give a couple of things, it is give them a love for real things.

00:57:31.560 Hmm. So that water balloon fights are much more fun than their apps so that the family ski trip is

00:57:40.220 way more fun than their shows. Right? So that blowing stuff up in the backyard as boys is way more fun

00:57:49.200 than watching stuff blowing up on YouTube. Right. At this point, the fight, the fight is,

00:57:55.860 is the real versus the artificial. That's the fight. It, because they are being sucked into

00:58:01.540 an artificial world. That's pretty intoxicating, right? It's really cool, man. They're,

00:58:06.300 they got all kinds of stuff. Well, it comes back to that ease,

00:58:08.280 right? Is I can just, you know, punch in whatever search term I want on YouTube and I can find it

00:58:12.740 right there, but actually blowing something up in the backyard in a relatively safe manner

00:58:17.640 takes a little bit more effort, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Right. But, but give them a love for it.

00:58:24.000 Give them a love for the, the thing is it's a much bigger gas. I would much rather go fishing

00:58:28.320 than watch people fish on YouTube. Of course. A hundred percent. Right? Yes. It's a no brainer,

00:58:32.580 but show your kids that like take them into the real world, give them fun stuff to do,

00:58:39.280 make the real more interesting than the artificial or the digital or the technology.

00:58:44.880 That is the big fight ahead of us as parents. I think sometimes we don't do that out of selfishness,

00:58:51.220 right? Because it is, I talk about it being harder for the kids, but it's also harder for you. It means

00:58:56.320 that you'll need to invest and you'll need to turn off your phone and you will need to do some

00:59:01.440 planning and you will need to get out of the digital world yourself. A lot of the times we,

00:59:07.320 we say things for our, our, for our kid, we're doing the best by our children. And in all reality,

00:59:12.940 you're really trying to do the best by you, but you're saying it's for your kids.

00:59:18.700 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what guys, here's the deal. You love to play.

00:59:24.020 Yes. Every, every guy loves to play. It's wired in us, right? So go play and bring your kids into

00:59:32.400 it. Go play with the things they want to do. Like just go do fun stuff together. Your house should

00:59:38.200 be, your house should be a very playful place, by the way, like spontaneous nerf gun wars,

00:59:45.260 spontaneous, you know, jumping off the roof onto the trampoline, just crazy stuff. Like your house

00:59:51.060 gang should be a playful place that the kids go, wow, like there's life here.

00:59:59.260 Right. You know, I think the other thing that we like to do is compete. And it's funny because

01:00:04.100 we'll find anything to compete over, you know, we'll go outside and the kids will be on their

01:00:08.900 bike. And I'm like, well, let's see who can do it the fastest, who can get from one end of the

01:00:12.120 driveway or the next, the fastest, or, or we go down the sledding Hill and you know, who, who can

01:00:17.700 stay, who can stand on their sled instead of sit on it, who can stand on it and make it the furthest

01:00:22.360 down the Hill. You know, this, this, these are the kinds of things that are just so fun to do with

01:00:26.600 your kids. Yeah. And that's the warrior, by the way, that competitive view that's that turns

01:00:32.480 everything into competition. That's the warrior. It's interesting though, because society has painted

01:00:38.580 it as so negative, right? I'm sure you're familiar with this American psychological association

01:00:42.840 study they did several years ago about how the, the characteristics, and I'm paraphrasing here,

01:00:48.080 the characteristics that we would traditionally assign to, to masculinity and men, stoicism,

01:00:55.520 aggression, dominance, and competitiveness are somehow inherently dangerous or destructive to

01:01:02.040 our young men, which is the furthest thing from the truth. It's got to be harnessed. It's got to be

01:01:06.600 utilized for productive outcomes for them and other people. Right. It all depends on what,

01:01:11.540 what is it in the service of? Because the other thing that that study, there were actually some

01:01:16.960 things that were totally right about that because what they were saying is men neglect their emotional

01:01:23.940 life to their harm. And I would say, yep, they sure do. So what's your take then on toxic masculinity?

01:01:33.500 Well, some masculinity is toxic, right? The hard ass dude who's always rough on his kids, 0.95

01:01:39.620 who disciplines not out of love, but out of anger and frustration, that's full on toxic. Yes, 0.97

01:01:46.360 man, he's doing damage, right? Yeah. Like there, is it in the context of love? What is it in the service

01:01:54.200 of? Is it in the service of your ego, the service of your own agenda? Like that's jacked guys,

01:02:01.840 like strength, warrior, intentionality, courage, combat, absolutely in the service of what?

01:02:09.620 Hmm. I also like that you're using the word love, but it's an interesting word because it's very

01:02:15.140 uncomfortable for men because I think primarily, I don't know if it's primarily, but definitely in

01:02:19.500 the English language, when we think of love, we think of romance, romantic interest. And there's

01:02:27.640 so many different types of love. Obviously, I don't think of love in the context of loving my children

01:02:33.080 as romantic. Obviously, I don't think of the love that I have for my friends and my brothers and my

01:02:40.160 training partners as romantic. I just wish we could in a way expand that word out to mean something more

01:02:46.920 than just intimacy and romance. Yeah, we really do. We need to take that word back. But bottom line,

01:02:53.780 guys, it's, this is for your good. Just think of it that way. This is on your behalf.

01:03:01.720 That's love. John, I know that you've got obviously Wild at Heart, which is a book that

01:03:07.300 every time I talk about a book a man should read, that is always on the list. You've got this new

01:03:12.920 expanded edition. Can you tell me a little bit about what's included in the expanded edition?

01:03:16.680 Yeah, yeah, we went back just to make sure that it was speaking to the times. It's 20 years old.

01:03:23.640 But it's still the leading, it's still one of the leading books out there on the list. And the reason

01:03:28.680 why is because it works. It works. It heals. It heals the masculine soul. Went back through updated 0.94

01:03:35.360 stories, analogies, language to make sure it could speak if a 20, 20 year old guy picked it up. Would it

01:03:42.660 still speak? Right? Because I wrote it, you know, when, before he was even born, if he's 20. And,

01:03:48.620 and, and then we added some sections in there to just kind of make it a little more relevant to the

01:03:53.500 current, like the technology issue for boys in the masculine journey, some of the gender questions

01:04:00.200 woven in there, I think with some grace, you know, we're not trying to pick a fight.

01:04:05.200 We're trying to help people towards wholeheartedness. That's what we're after. And then,

01:04:09.500 and then with that, we launched the wild at heart experience, which is this six week program

01:04:13.820 that's available for free. Uh, you can walk through these film series and some of the readings from

01:04:19.780 the book, some questions for reflection at wild at heart.org. I'm glad that you talked about with,

01:04:26.960 with some level of, of humility and grace and the way you're, you're explaining these concepts is not

01:04:31.840 to pick fights or pick on anybody. I think it's so prevalent to be contentious because I mean,

01:04:37.660 let's be honest on social media contention is what scores the social media cloud.

01:04:41.980 We got to be, we got to be really honest about that. That's what gets eyeballs. And so I, one of

01:04:47.260 the things that I really appreciate among others that you do is it's not this contentious spirit.

01:04:52.260 It's not poking. It's not trying to make other people feel wrong or bad. It's just illustrating

01:04:58.300 and highlighting a path that I would attest serves people more effectively. But as you've said,

01:05:03.880 I think this is the theme that's run through this conversation. It comes from a place of love and

01:05:08.260 care, not spite and contention and animosity. Yeah. I used to be that guy. Well, that's an

01:05:16.420 immaturity, right? He didn't win a lot of friends. Definitely. Definitely. That wasn't good on my

01:05:23.700 marriage. That wasn't good for my sons. Yeah. Yeah. It's part of our transformation.

01:05:29.820 It is. And isn't it a great place to be? It feels good. Cause I used to be that guy too. And I am

01:05:34.660 still that guy in a lot of ways. Like, let's be truthful about that. You know, there's days where

01:05:38.700 I want to get somebody back and say the thing and I'm good at stinging people in the right place if I

01:05:43.840 need to with, with my words and my actions. Uh, but isn't it nice to know that we can elevate

01:05:50.440 ourselves and step into this mature masculinity, which serves ourselves and everybody else better.

01:05:55.900 Yeah, totally. You're going to love your life more. It's the bottom line. You really are.

01:06:01.560 Yeah. Well, John, I appreciate you. Your, your work has quite literally transformed my life from

01:06:07.620 the day that I started reading that book on that airplane and left that dang book in that seat

01:06:11.800 pocket, uh, to now and being able to have a couple of conversations with you. Uh, where would you direct

01:06:17.560 the guys if they want to learn more about what you're doing and what you're up to, where would you

01:06:20.860 direct them? Yeah. Thanks. That's generous. Uh, wild at heart.org is our website. You can find

01:06:27.820 some really cool stuff there. Film series, podcasts, groups for guys. You can connect with other guys.

01:06:34.240 Yeah. Perfect. We'll sync it all up. So the guys know where to go again. I appreciate you. I'm so

01:06:39.240 honored to be able to have these types of conversations with you. And I, I thank you for

01:06:42.520 joining us today. Yeah. Cheering you on Ryan. Way to go. You've, you've made a series of really

01:06:48.480 good choices. And I am super proud of you. Well done. Gentlemen, I hope you enjoyed that

01:06:55.020 conversation with the one and only John Eldridge. He's been a long time mentor indirectly, uh, for me.

01:07:02.520 I think I mentioned in the podcast that, uh, I actually left his book wild at heart on the plane

01:07:09.860 in the back cushion of the seat. And I was so disappointed. I do that, that I did that,

01:07:14.540 that I had to go out and buy another one. And then of course he's got his new expanded edition

01:07:18.720 of wild at heart, which I want you to check out, connect with him on the instas at ransomed heart

01:07:25.940 connect with me, take a screenshot real quick before this podcast ends, take a screenshot,

01:07:31.080 write a little note, post it on Instagram, post it on Facebook, post it on Twitter, post it on

01:07:35.300 wherever you're doing the social media thing. Guys, we need to get this message out. I told you to

01:07:39.140 begin this podcast. I want to get this message of restoring, reclaiming masculinity, not redefining

01:07:46.100 it. That's bullshit, but reclaiming and restoring masculinity. And I need your help to do it. 0.93

01:07:51.260 We've got thousands and thousands, millions of men, frankly, at this point with the growth that

01:07:56.940 we've seen who are tuned in. So share, right? If you've got information or tools or resource or

01:08:03.460 whatever it may be, that's going to help other people. Then yeah, we've got an obligation to share.

01:08:07.280 Take a quick screenshot, make a post, send somebody a text message. Let them know what

01:08:13.380 you're listening to. This is how we spread the mission. And I'm going to make this a household

01:08:16.960 name and you're going to help me do that. So connect with John, connect with me. Let me know

01:08:21.720 what you thought about the show. Check out the iron council, check out origin main. You've got your

01:08:26.240 marching orders. You know what to do. Get it done. We'll be back tomorrow for the ask me anything I do

01:08:32.300 with my friend and co-host Kip Sorensen. But guys, until then, go out there, take action and

01:08:37.240 become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:08:42.060 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:08:45.700 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - May 04, 2021

JOHN ELDREDGE ｜ Embrace Your Battle Like a Man

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