Order of Man - JOHN ELDREDGE ｜ How a Man Can Truly Experience Jesus

00:00:00.000 Out of the millions of men we've worked with over the past 10 years, I've heard everything

00:00:04.100 from a deep level of disdain and animosity towards God and Jesus to a rich and abiding

00:00:10.040 love for his word.

00:00:12.240 For me, I tend to fall somewhere in the middle as I personally wrestle with my own relationship

00:00:17.100 with him and towards my faith and spirituality.

00:00:20.320 And that's the reason I really wanted to talk with a huge influence in my life.

00:00:23.860 His name is John Eldridge.

00:00:25.340 Today, John and I cover what faith and spirituality really look like, how the distraction era has

00:00:31.680 hampered our ability to draw close to Christ, whether or not church is necessary on the path

00:00:38.060 of spirituality, why finding truth is challenging, but also worth the struggle, how the doctrine

00:00:44.000 of popular culture gets it all wrong, and how maybe for the first time ever, you can experience

00:00:49.460 Jesus.

00:00:50.080 You're a man of action.

00:00:51.180 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:56.000 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:00.420 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:05.460 This is your life.

00:01:06.620 This is who you are.

00:01:08.020 This is who you will become.

00:01:09.740 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:14.680 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:18.900 Exciting news.

00:01:20.340 As of a couple of days ago, we hit our 10-year anniversary, and I'm so grateful for you tuning

00:01:27.660 in over the past 10 years, and most importantly, applying all of the information, or at least

00:01:32.760 some of it, hopefully a lot of it, in your life for the betterment of yourself and your

00:01:38.000 careers and your family members and friends and colleagues and everybody else.

00:01:41.560 So thank you, very grateful, and on the eve of our 10-year anniversary, we just opened

00:01:48.120 up our Iron Council again.

00:01:49.540 This is our brotherhood of men, excuse me, our brotherhood of men, 1,100 men from all

00:01:56.080 over, not only the country, but the world, banding together, and I've got a couple of

00:01:59.520 testimonials that I wanted to share with you because we are officially open for enrollment.

00:02:06.600 So this one comes from Rob Snowden.

00:02:08.380 He says, I joined in December, went through the Forge, and joined Team Edge.

00:02:12.880 Since I've joined, I've already become a better man through accountability from my team, being

00:02:17.520 proactive with many of the channels, and developing connections with a lot of Iron Council members.

00:02:23.060 I learned to finally open up about the things I thought I would never have mentioned to anyone,

00:02:28.360 and the Iron Council has helped understand, excuse me, helped me understand and learn about

00:02:33.160 myself, and you get the help I've needed to be a better man.

00:02:37.120 This one comes from Steven Rager from Battle Team Eagle.

00:02:39.580 He says, I've been a member for more than a year now, and I'm genuinely grateful for the

00:02:43.660 impact it's had.

00:02:45.100 When I joined, I was seeking accountability, and I found that and so much more.

00:02:50.420 By constantly leveraging the resources available, I've achieved tangible results, including weight

00:02:55.080 loss and improved relationships.

00:02:56.540 I like the various channels for specific topics to discuss things from cooking, battle planning,

00:03:02.080 health, and stoicism.

00:03:03.960 So guys, if you're interested in joining, you can join us at orderofman.com slash ironcouncil,

00:03:09.140 or tomorrow night, March 19th at 8 p.m. Eastern, we've got a preview call to pull back the curtain

00:03:14.080 on what we're doing there.

00:03:15.580 You can go to, let's see, that is theironcouncil.com slash preview, theironcouncil.com slash preview.

00:03:24.000 Do that right after the show.

00:03:25.200 Right now, I'm going to introduce my guest.

00:03:27.280 John Eldridge is a best-selling author.

00:03:29.420 He's a counselor.

00:03:30.700 He's also the founder of Wild at Heart, which is a ministry dedicated to helping people experience

00:03:35.420 faith.

00:03:36.480 He's very well known for his groundbreaking book, Wild at Heart, one of my personal favorites,

00:03:40.820 in fact, which redefined Christian masculinity.

00:03:44.160 He spent decades guiding men towards deeper transformations, but he's got a passion for storytelling

00:03:50.280 and adventure.

00:03:51.140 It all shines through with his writing, where he blends biblical truth with real-world wisdom

00:03:57.820 to help believers cultivate a closer relationship with God.

00:04:01.720 Now, he's got a new book coming out.

00:04:02.980 It's called Experience Jesus Really?

00:04:05.140 And he challenges the modern struggle with distraction and disconnecting and invites men

00:04:10.760 to encounter Jesus in their everyday life on a deep and personal level.

00:04:14.520 It's got a lot of insights, practical steps, and a call to reclaim childlike faith.

00:04:19.700 This is a very, very powerful guide to hearing God's voice and feeling his presence when it

00:04:27.120 may be hard at times because of the era in which we live to feel it.

00:04:30.220 I hope you enjoy this one, gents.

00:04:31.260 Well, John, it's good to be here with you.

00:04:34.540 Ryan, great to be with you.

00:04:36.440 Yeah.

00:04:36.880 I told you I was going to tell you some things only after we hit record, though.

00:04:41.180 Yeah?

00:04:41.660 So one of the things I was going to tell you is about 10 years, maybe a little over 10

00:04:46.240 years ago, I was on an airplane reading Wild at Heart.

00:04:51.000 And it was about the time that I made the decision to start this podcast in movement.

00:04:55.140 Come on.

00:04:55.500 And so I was reading the book and really enjoyed it.

00:04:58.280 Then eventually I put it down and was going to take a nap.

00:05:00.400 Not that the book bored me, but ready to take a nap.

00:05:02.720 So I put it in the front seat of the airplane there.

00:05:06.540 And we landed.

00:05:07.860 I got off and realized I forgot the book.

00:05:10.540 I was so frustrated.

00:05:11.620 So I bought another one, read the book, and wanted to tell you it's really interesting.

00:05:15.980 So I started this podcast on March 15th of 2015.

00:05:20.000 And here we are 10 years later, talking with you from a book that was really instrumental

00:05:26.540 in helping me start this movement, almost 10 years to the day, because I think it's

00:05:30.780 the 12th today.

00:05:31.820 Yeah, right.

00:05:32.220 So it's amazing how this all comes around like this.

00:05:34.820 That's super cool.

00:05:35.600 So I'm glad to be in studio with you.

00:05:37.040 Yeah.

00:05:37.380 Yeah.

00:05:37.820 Happy birthday to the movement.

00:05:39.180 Yeah, thank you.

00:05:39.880 It's been a movement of ups and downs.

00:05:43.140 I'm sure it has been for you as well.

00:05:44.960 Yeah, full on.

00:05:45.900 Yeah.

00:05:46.220 Well, I'm excited about this conversation because we were talking a little bit about

00:05:50.120 this beforehand, but it seems to me like there's dwindling numbers of men when it comes

00:05:58.200 to religion, religious participation.

00:06:01.580 But I imagine with spirituality, that seems to be the case as well.

00:06:05.080 Would you agree with that?

00:06:06.000 Yeah.

00:06:06.340 It's always been tough to get men in through waves and seasons.

00:06:13.960 Obviously, the first guys that decided to follow Christ were a pretty rough group of

00:06:21.000 guys.

00:06:21.520 They were hardened men.

00:06:22.900 And they changed the world through their lives and through their death.

00:06:26.900 But there is a fascinating thing going on right now.

00:06:31.740 But before I go there, let me say a big reason why is the Christian church in the West, at

00:06:39.620 least, took on a really feminine soul. 1.00

00:06:42.640 Yeah.

00:06:44.080 And, you know, getting people around in a group to talk and share their feelings, like,

00:06:49.180 that is not a guy kind of a vibe, right?

00:06:53.780 And compassion, empathy, all good things.

00:06:57.380 But it's been very feminine.

00:07:01.440 Even the picture of Jesus that they've presented to the world, you know, gentle Jesus, soft and

00:07:08.860 mild, you know, not super attractive to guys, not a guy that they would follow.

00:07:14.480 Right.

00:07:14.820 Certainly not follow, like, into war.

00:07:17.840 So there's been this collective sort of feminizing, not because of a feminist movement, but just

00:07:24.980 because, you know, women are more eager to serve at church, right? 0.97

00:07:30.600 So they tend to fill all the programs and run the Sunday school classes.

00:07:35.140 So everything's filtered through a female lens is really what it comes down to. 1.00

00:07:38.820 I think it was totally unintentional.

00:07:40.880 I really do.

00:07:41.560 It just happened.

00:07:42.580 And there was a very, very soft view of Jesus that was promoted.

00:07:48.640 And guys are like, yeah, not interested in that.

00:07:53.040 What's fascinating is that there's a shift going on right now.

00:07:57.300 The largest growth movement in the Eastern Orthodox Church is young men.

00:08:05.100 Have you been to an Eastern Orthodox service?

00:08:06.740 I know, I don't know the term, a father, I don't know his official title, but it's pretty

00:08:14.260 intense.

00:08:15.660 Yeah, they're priests.

00:08:16.280 Yeah, priests, yeah.

00:08:17.420 There's no pews.

00:08:18.880 You stand.

00:08:20.180 Oh, really?

00:08:21.040 For three hours.

00:08:23.420 And there's something about the rigor, I think, that young guys are gravitating towards.

00:08:29.340 They're like, yeah, give me the real deal, man.

00:08:31.280 Like, I can take it.

00:08:32.320 Don't soften this for me.

00:08:34.500 I am looking for a genuine spiritual life.

00:08:41.020 Don't give me the cookies, right?

00:08:43.760 Like, show me the hard stuff.

00:08:45.100 I'll sign up.

00:08:45.960 I'll go all in.

00:08:47.120 So of all movements, the Eastern Orthodox, like, that's very rigorous.

00:08:51.840 Yeah.

00:08:52.340 I wonder if, like you said, it is because it is the intensity of it, maybe, that has to

00:08:58.580 do with it.

00:08:59.080 Yes.

00:08:59.360 Do you think there's, what about the distinction between spirituality and religion?

00:09:04.700 Exactly.

00:09:04.920 Because I think that's a thing that, a distinction that a lot of people make.

00:09:09.560 And you hear guys, it's like, I feel closest to God when I'm in the mountains.

00:09:13.100 Yes.

00:09:13.740 I understand the sentiment, but sometimes I feel like that's a bit of an excuse not to maybe

00:09:20.700 participate.

00:09:22.120 Yep.

00:09:22.300 To me, it would be like being on a football team and saying, I feel like I'm the best

00:09:27.220 when I don't go to practice and I just kind of do it on my own.

00:09:30.980 Yeah.

00:09:31.660 Is that off base?

00:09:32.900 Yeah.

00:09:33.100 I mean, where do you come and fall when it comes to spirituality and religion?

00:09:36.140 Yes.

00:09:36.680 Right.

00:09:37.140 Well, okay. 0.89

00:09:38.340 So the evil one tried to stop the revolution that Jesus started by killing him.

00:09:47.460 It backfired badly.

00:09:49.720 Definitely. 0.92

00:09:50.080 Then he tried to stop it by killing all of his closest friends.

00:09:53.920 I mean, all of them, but John, you know, were killed.

00:09:57.980 It didn't work.

00:09:59.580 And so what he came up with, he's like, man, I got to figure out a way to stop this thing.

00:10:04.680 He came up with a brilliant counterfeit called religion.

00:10:09.140 And I can warehouse millions of people in a sort of quasi connection, but they don't actually

00:10:17.800 know God.

00:10:18.520 And they don't experience the profound restoration of the human soul that Christ was all about.

00:10:28.140 They don't experience it.

00:10:29.520 So they get into these religious huge movements and the cults as well, and they just sit there.

00:10:35.320 Right.

00:10:35.760 Right?

00:10:35.980 That's not appealing, man.

00:10:37.600 It's so soul killing.

00:10:39.220 It's just soul killing.

00:10:40.360 So if a guy, if that's all he's seen, or that's all he got a taste of growing up as a boy,

00:10:47.400 he's out of there.

00:10:49.100 Right?

00:10:49.600 It doesn't speak to the masculine soul.

00:10:52.020 It doesn't speak to, give me battle, adventure, and beauty.

00:10:56.100 Right?

00:10:56.300 The core things of a man's heart.

00:10:58.020 Where's the war to fight?

00:10:59.440 Right?

00:10:59.700 Where's the adventure to live?

00:11:01.100 It doesn't speak to that.

00:11:02.320 Religion doesn't speak to that.

00:11:03.780 But there is a massive resurgence of spirituality.

00:11:07.200 So you know that one of the growing podcasts in America is a podcast called Blurry Creatures.

00:11:15.800 Okay.

00:11:16.160 I haven't heard of it.

00:11:16.960 Okay.

00:11:17.360 You will.

00:11:18.220 These guys are great.

00:11:20.260 But what they've opened up is, hey, what about the rest of the spiritual world?

00:11:25.280 What's all this UFO stuff?

00:11:26.860 What's all, you know, these different paranormal?

00:11:29.880 Well, they kind of started it as like a sort of a kick.

00:11:33.600 Right.

00:11:33.760 You know, it's like a Saturday afternoon thing.

00:11:36.580 Young men have gravitated to that show.

00:11:39.100 Because guys are looking, the human soul is made for a spiritual life.

00:11:44.480 Right?

00:11:44.760 And what you do experience in the woods or on a river or in a really phenomenal moment

00:11:50.100 of prayer, they're looking for that.

00:11:53.380 And religion doesn't deliver. 0.76

00:11:55.080 Right?

00:11:55.680 So where can we get a genuine spirituality that allows the thriving and, frankly, the

00:12:02.860 healing of the soul?

00:12:03.760 For me, that's the big test.

00:12:05.100 Right?

00:12:05.380 Because Jesus heals human souls.

00:12:08.620 So is it restoring men?

00:12:11.240 Are they becoming better dads?

00:12:13.580 Right?

00:12:13.880 Are they becoming better husbands?

00:12:15.700 Like, that's the acid test.

00:12:17.300 If it doesn't do that, why are we signing up?

00:12:19.840 Right.

00:12:20.160 What's the point?

00:12:20.840 Yeah.

00:12:21.680 That's interesting.

00:12:22.960 When you are out and you know, you hear guys say, and I felt those, I would say, spiritual

00:12:28.660 moments on, we were talking a little bit about our hunts and things like that.

00:12:32.100 And I felt those moments.

00:12:33.580 And also simultaneously, I question, is this divine?

00:12:38.620 Is this spirituality?

00:12:39.340 Or is this me being a human being and just appreciating, tying back into my roots or something

00:12:48.020 more physical than spiritual?

00:12:51.900 Yes.

00:12:52.360 And why would that be different?

00:12:53.800 The, what do you mean by that?

00:12:58.180 Well, this is what happened is we separated the sacred and the secular, so to speak.

00:13:03.720 The secular, right. 0.61

00:13:04.700 Sure.

00:13:04.860 Yeah.

00:13:05.000 We separated the true world. 0.95

00:13:06.400 We literally like separated nature.

00:13:09.260 But scripture says that the whole world is filled with the glory of God.

00:13:12.800 So when you experience God's presence saturates nature in a way, it does not saturate your

00:13:19.180 iPhone.

00:13:20.080 Right.

00:13:20.620 Okay.

00:13:21.120 Right.

00:13:21.540 Well, guys, yeah, they get out of the digital and they get out of the crazy and frankly,

00:13:26.320 the artificial.

00:13:27.360 So we could start there.

00:13:28.300 Okay.

00:13:28.800 You get out of the artificial world where you don't like the weather.

00:13:32.840 You go.

00:13:33.880 Just change it to 68 instead of 70 or whatever.

00:13:36.640 Exactly.

00:13:37.080 Right.

00:13:37.480 And you want your food?

00:13:38.680 Well, you can just get it delivered to your door.

00:13:40.100 You don't even have to make it.

00:13:41.720 Okay.

00:13:41.920 You get out of the artificial, you get out into the real, something happens.

00:13:46.840 The soul responds to the real.

00:13:49.320 It responds to the presence of God, I think, in creation.

00:13:53.540 Now, creation is not God, so I'm not a pantheist.

00:13:56.780 Right.

00:13:56.900 Okay.

00:13:57.540 But he is out there.

00:13:59.840 And so for us to experience those moments, right, it might be beauty.

00:14:04.240 It might be danger.

00:14:07.020 Right.

00:14:07.740 And awe.

00:14:08.520 Sure.

00:14:08.720 And like, whoa, we barely made it through that.

00:14:12.100 And there's just a sense of, oh, I think we were protected in that.

00:14:16.840 Right.

00:14:17.240 Okay.

00:14:18.120 Of course.

00:14:19.580 That's far more alive and living than most guys get anywhere else in their life.

00:14:24.980 I think the distinction that sometimes is hard personally for me to make is if you were to go to church, for example, you were going to be instructed.

00:14:35.120 But if you go out into nature, there's no instruction.

00:14:39.080 There's no manual.

00:14:39.900 There's no do this, do that, do this.

00:14:42.020 And so what is the purpose?

00:14:43.360 I'm not saying it doesn't have its place.

00:14:44.720 Of course it does.

00:14:46.180 But what is the purpose of experiencing that?

00:14:49.220 Oh.

00:14:49.440 And how does it heal your soul, like you say?

00:14:52.140 I am so glad you're asking these questions.

00:14:54.260 I had no idea this was the direction we would end up going.

00:14:57.160 So I was out in nature the other day.

00:14:58.740 I just thrive in it personally.

00:15:01.900 And I know a lot about like medicinal plants and mushrooms that heal and mushrooms that kill you and that sort of thing.

00:15:09.800 And I'm walking through the woods and I'm looking at it going, Father, you're – first off, the natural world is wild.

00:15:20.280 It's not tame.

00:15:21.880 Not at all.

00:15:22.620 Okay?

00:15:23.120 Yeah.

00:15:23.740 That's a big lesson for the human soul.

00:15:27.680 That is – there is a submission that you have to make.

00:15:31.720 If you're not going to die out there, you got to kind of get your stuff together.

00:15:36.000 Right.

00:15:36.200 I mean, even with mushrooms, you eat that one, you're dead.

00:15:38.700 You eat that one, you're good.

00:15:39.800 Bingo.

00:15:40.260 Right.

00:15:40.600 The kingdom of God is just like that.

00:15:42.960 The kingdom of God is wild and beautiful and it is full of danger and full of healing goodness.

00:15:50.260 And we are meant to learn to navigate our way through that.

00:15:54.760 The natural world was supposed to be our tutor.

00:15:58.040 You learn to navigate through the natural world.

00:16:00.500 Here's a basic lesson every boy needs to learn.

00:16:02.800 Every boy needs to learn there is a way things work.

00:16:06.380 Right.

00:16:06.780 You cannot turn that canoe sideways in the river.

00:16:09.800 Right.

00:16:10.360 You're going – you're going to sink.

00:16:11.800 Right.

00:16:11.920 You're going down.

00:16:12.080 There's a natural order of things.

00:16:13.500 You cannot stalk that whitetail upwind.

00:16:16.760 You just can't.

00:16:18.000 Like, there's a way things – and it's very frustrating for boys because they want the quick.

00:16:22.520 They want the results.

00:16:23.480 That sort of thing.

00:16:24.240 But they're –

00:16:24.440 And they're rebellious in nature too.

00:16:25.940 Yeah.

00:16:26.260 They want to fight against the way to do it.

00:16:27.940 There you go.

00:16:28.720 Sure.

00:16:28.960 So, we learn a humility in nature of – you can't just do things any old way you want to.

00:16:35.980 Right?

00:16:36.300 I mean, you go out there with a 22, you're not going to kill an elk.

00:16:40.060 No.

00:16:40.280 It's not going to happen.

00:16:42.300 So, there is a submission to reality.

00:16:45.160 Right?

00:16:45.860 And there is a – this is so deep in the formation of the masculine soul, which is why I think the best thing you can do for young boys and men is get them in nature because it teaches them reality.

00:16:58.060 Right?

00:16:58.540 It teaches them you have to accommodate yourself to a world that will either bless you or kill you.

00:17:06.700 You can have phenomenal experiences out there.

00:17:09.640 Right?

00:17:10.000 I mean, we've flipped rafts.

00:17:12.500 You know, we've had mountain lion encounters, tons of bear encounters.

00:17:16.720 It's an awesome place to be.

00:17:18.340 It is.

00:17:18.920 Right?

00:17:19.660 But you have to conform to its realities.

00:17:24.860 That's a good tutor.

00:17:26.180 That is interesting because you see the modern world and what we try to do – I've called it the doctrine of popular culture – is that we try as a culture to manipulate and distort and contort all these concepts and principles to fit whatever makes us feel good.

00:17:44.960 Exactly.

00:17:45.320 So you think about the confusion with transgenderism and all these different things that are happening and trying to confuse reality and what unequivocally just is.

00:17:59.300 Yep.

00:18:00.320 Yes, that's right.

00:18:01.180 And the metaverse and the – oh, yeah.

00:18:03.540 Like you can literally just live in a false reality.

00:18:06.820 That is ultimate human delusion.

00:18:10.640 Right?

00:18:10.900 Well, you just go try and pull that off in a weekend in the desert.

00:18:14.700 Yeah.

00:18:15.240 It's not going to go well.

00:18:16.720 Yeah.

00:18:16.940 Try to do it your way.

00:18:17.980 I've had, I mean, experiences.

00:18:19.480 I was thinking about one where my oldest son and I – I'll spare you the story for now.

00:18:24.740 But essentially, I almost died on Father's Day falling off a cliff when I was hunting goats, wild goats with him in Hawaii.

00:18:31.740 Yep.

00:18:31.980 And there was a moment I'm like, this might be over and there's nothing I can do about it right now.

00:18:39.200 Yes.

00:18:39.500 That's right.

00:18:39.960 And that's pretty scary and humbling.

00:18:41.300 That's right.

00:18:41.840 And so as much as you would say, I don't want that to be my reality, it is your reality.

00:18:47.780 Right.

00:18:48.180 Okay.

00:18:48.320 That's why it's such a great tutor.

00:18:49.900 And you're right.

00:18:51.820 The comfort culture and the delusion is we can just create any reality, including changing our biological gender to take some drugs.

00:19:04.300 Right.

00:19:04.760 And grow some facial hair or whatever.

00:19:07.560 Yeah.

00:19:07.660 But that is a fundamental denial of the world God made.

00:19:13.160 So God is in the reality as opposed to the artificial or the self-created reality.

00:19:21.240 That's why it is such a great tutor for the masculine soul.

00:19:24.420 Yeah.

00:19:24.800 Okay.

00:19:25.100 So to come back to – I'm going to come all the way back to the first question.

00:19:29.420 Yeah, why don't men seem to have an interest in spirituality because they haven't made the connection that God is in the things you love.

00:19:40.660 You're a cyclist and you're out there and you're cranking 50 miles this weekend.

00:19:45.660 God is in that.

00:19:47.360 He wired you for that.

00:19:49.180 He will meet you there if you give him your attention.

00:19:53.000 Right?

00:19:53.280 If you like lifting, if you like fishing, like early mornings, calm water.

00:19:59.320 That's like one of my joy, man.

00:20:01.200 I love water.

00:20:02.880 God created that, created me to love that, and he wants to father me there.

00:20:10.320 Men haven't made that connection.

00:20:12.180 They think, oh, no, no, it's – you go to church, you learn the lessons.

00:20:16.940 That's all God's in, and the rest of the reality is just –

00:20:20.740 Something else.

00:20:21.440 Something else.

00:20:22.160 Interesting.

00:20:22.640 Yeah, but he saturates all of his created world, right?

00:20:26.900 And particularly, he pursues our soul through the things that we resonate with because some dudes do not have any interest.

00:20:33.960 I've got two sons who love hunting.

00:20:35.880 My youngest son, who's 30, does not enjoy it.

00:20:40.220 Right.

00:20:40.700 Yeah, that's okay.

00:20:42.180 Find something else.

00:20:43.240 Totally.

00:20:44.280 Exactly.

00:20:45.060 Yeah.

00:20:46.680 And God will meet him in the things that he loves and draw him in.

00:20:52.200 Because the whole thing is the father-son relationship.

00:20:54.320 That's what he's after.

00:20:55.180 Sure.

00:20:55.660 He's after the father-son relationship.

00:20:58.160 Just like we are with our boys and our daughters.

00:21:00.380 Yes.

00:21:00.900 I want the same – I want a relationship with my children.

00:21:04.400 Exactly.

00:21:05.260 Right.

00:21:05.460 I think it has to be done for men primarily in the physical realm.

00:21:09.140 Yep.

00:21:09.320 And I'm not saying it needs to be weight training or fishing.

00:21:13.140 It could even be painting.

00:21:14.840 Yeah.

00:21:14.940 You know, that's done in the physical realm.

00:21:16.320 Yep.

00:21:16.440 It's inspiring.

00:21:17.280 Yep.

00:21:17.540 Cooking.

00:21:18.160 Shirt cooking.

00:21:18.980 Yeah.

00:21:19.160 Right.

00:21:19.580 Because, again, cooking is filled with reality.

00:21:21.700 Mm-hmm.

00:21:22.020 You can't just throw a bunch of stuff in there and hope it's great.

00:21:24.520 Unless you're in, like, Boy Scout camp and, you know, then you just all throw whatever you can in there and whoever eats it wins or something.

00:21:30.560 Right.

00:21:31.100 Right.

00:21:31.940 Yeah.

00:21:32.400 I love that.

00:21:33.100 Father-daughter, father-son.

00:21:34.600 That's what you want.

00:21:35.720 Mm-hmm.

00:21:35.940 You want the relationship.

00:21:37.480 That's what he's after with us.

00:21:39.100 And most guys just haven't made the connection.

00:21:41.900 Why do you think – this is a really deep question, one that's been on my mind for a long time, actually.

00:21:47.380 Why do you think God doesn't need us?

00:21:52.280 We need him, I believe.

00:21:54.520 Yep.

00:21:56.240 What is the purpose for what God has created?

00:22:00.080 Why would he need to?

00:22:01.180 Sometimes I wonder, is he the puppet master up there dangling all these little – like, doing the play and trying to entertain like they – I think they talk about in, like, Greek mythology where the gods need to play things.

00:22:15.580 Yes.

00:22:16.240 But what is the purpose for God creating this and everything?

00:22:19.780 Yes.

00:22:22.300 It is a phenomenal answer.

00:22:27.580 He yearns for relationship.

00:22:30.080 Hmm.

00:22:31.180 Because his heart is very much like yours with your children.

00:22:35.020 You don't necessarily need –

00:22:37.340 Right.

00:22:37.900 – your children.

00:22:38.700 Sure.

00:22:39.040 You could live without them.

00:22:40.820 And plenty of people do.

00:22:42.500 Yeah.

00:22:42.960 And you can earn a living and have a meaningful life, right, to some degree, but not totally and completely out of relationship.

00:22:50.920 It's a fascinating thing.

00:22:52.300 Why is solitary confinement a punishment?

00:22:55.000 The worst punishment.

00:22:56.380 Of all.

00:22:56.960 Yeah.

00:22:57.140 People go mad, right?

00:22:59.000 Why is that?

00:22:59.680 Because we are highly relational beings created in the image of a highly relational God.

00:23:05.840 Okay?

00:23:06.560 He's not a puppet player.

00:23:08.000 He's looking for human partners to join the great story and to be co-creators with him.

00:23:15.480 So, Adam and Eve are given the world.

00:23:18.960 Absolutely.

00:23:19.600 Right?

00:23:20.020 Okay.

00:23:20.380 Human partnership.

00:23:22.260 You see that?

00:23:23.140 And then even like the gospel.

00:23:24.960 This, to me, just blows my mind.

00:23:26.720 God gives the gospel to the church to get out to the world.

00:23:30.620 And I'm like, you could just zap human consciousness.

00:23:33.640 Right.

00:23:33.760 You could just communicate to everybody.

00:23:35.280 Seize the airwaves.

00:23:36.320 Right.

00:23:36.580 And be done.

00:23:37.320 Yes.

00:23:37.720 We got it.

00:23:38.360 He loves human partners.

00:23:40.600 It's the way he rolls.

00:23:42.380 Okay?

00:23:43.040 So, what a man's experience is, is learning first to come into sonship.

00:23:48.060 Mm-hmm.

00:23:48.740 Right?

00:23:49.200 What do you mean by, how would you define sonship?

00:23:51.800 That you have a father.

00:23:52.980 Mm-hmm.

00:23:53.140 No matter what your earthly father experience has been, and mine was not good.

00:23:57.700 I was raised in an alcoholic home.

00:23:59.520 I didn't want anything to do with Father God.

00:24:02.100 Right?

00:24:02.480 And I came in the doorway to spirituality first through Eastern mysticism.

00:24:07.100 We used to eat peyote and go out in the desert and look for God.

00:24:09.980 Oh, really?

00:24:10.340 Oh, yeah.

00:24:10.920 Did you ever find him?

00:24:11.960 Not like that.

00:24:12.900 But actually, I'll tell you what happened was, we opened the door to the kingdom of darkness.

00:24:17.200 And I saw my best friend get totally demon-possessed.

00:24:20.660 He got picked up, thrown around like a rag doll.

00:24:22.540 It was full tilt.

00:24:24.460 You experienced that?

00:24:25.460 Oh, yeah.

00:24:25.960 Whoa.

00:24:26.480 Full tilt.

00:24:27.200 And that night, I knew, we have found the spiritual realm.

00:24:31.820 This is the dark side.

00:24:33.380 I want nothing to do with it. 0.88

00:24:35.520 It's so freaking evil, man.

00:24:37.460 Do you think it, what do you attribute you opening that realm to? 0.90

00:24:42.440 Was it the drug use?

00:24:44.620 Was it, like, what would you attribute it to?

00:24:46.560 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:46.980 So, hallucinogens, which is why as a therapist, I am not on board with the use of hallucinogens

00:24:52.440 to treat trauma because they don't understand.

00:24:54.320 When you mess with human consciousness, you open the door to the kingdom of darkness.

00:24:59.960 They're looking for any door, guys, right?

00:25:02.540 Oh, any way in.

00:25:03.400 Oh, yeah.

00:25:03.780 You rage at your neighbor.

00:25:05.020 They're going to jump on that. 1.00

00:25:06.140 You know, you're such an idiot. 1.00

00:25:07.540 You're, you know, kind of thing. 1.00

00:25:08.480 They'll just jump on anything they can.

00:25:11.220 We opened the door.

00:25:12.260 We found the kingdom of darkness.

00:25:16.000 What we were talking about was sonship.

00:25:18.700 So, because of my brokenness, I didn't want anything to do with Father God.

00:25:24.840 I came in the door through Jesus because I was like, okay, he's cool.

00:25:29.720 I can relate to him.

00:25:31.020 He's truly a good man.

00:25:33.060 I can follow him, want to be like him.

00:25:35.500 Not gentle Jesus, meek and mild with the sheep, you know, and that sort of thing.

00:25:39.760 But the guy who, like, literally descended into hell to rescue us.

00:25:43.620 So, that's a man's man right there.

00:25:45.640 I didn't want anything to do with Father for years until I was able to heal the father wound in me and realize, wait a second, I'm projecting onto God all of my father's stuff.

00:25:58.700 He's not like that.

00:26:00.540 So, the first step of coming home is that a man realizes that you were created.

00:26:10.060 You have a creator.

00:26:11.840 He had you in mind.

00:26:13.180 He's got a story for you.

00:26:14.900 Psalm 139, all the days of mine were written in your book before one of them came to be.

00:26:20.540 I want to be a part of that.

00:26:22.040 I want to come home to my true father, right?

00:26:26.480 Even Jesus is wild.

00:26:28.340 He gets baptized in the Jordan and the father speaks and he says, this is my son.

00:26:33.640 I'm so proud of him.

00:26:34.780 Yeah.

00:26:35.240 Right?

00:26:35.840 I mean, isn't that, you know, every man listening to that wants to hear those words from his dad.

00:26:42.420 Without a doubt.

00:26:43.560 Starving.

00:26:43.880 And I want to be able to share that, those words with my children.

00:26:47.900 Exactly.

00:26:48.780 Exactly.

00:26:49.400 And your creator father, your true father wants to speak that over your life.

00:26:54.600 And that's transformational.

00:26:56.360 When you realize that he really does adore you, he really is proud of you and he has a plan.

00:27:01.860 He's got a role for you to play in the big story.

00:27:04.640 I mean, your mission for the last 10 years, right?

00:27:07.720 It's wild.

00:27:08.880 I believe it's divine too.

00:27:10.320 And unpredictable.

00:27:11.480 But you felt like, no, no, no, I'm made to do this.

00:27:14.880 I need to do this.

00:27:15.780 I'm compelled to do this.

00:27:17.820 Yeah.

00:27:17.980 Yeah.

00:27:18.140 That's, that's the, did you look at when you were talking about Jesus versus God, the father, did you look at God, the father through the lens of, of your own dad?

00:27:28.720 And I know a lot of people have some real animosity towards God, even believers, because why would he allow certain things to happen?

00:27:36.400 Yes.

00:27:36.560 Yes.

00:27:37.600 And then did you look at Jesus, the way you're saying it was almost more brother-like.

00:27:42.480 Exactly.

00:27:43.200 Versus father-like.

00:27:44.360 Exactly.

00:27:44.940 That's right.

00:27:45.600 Yeah.

00:27:45.860 And here's an interesting little tangent.

00:27:47.820 We won't get lost in the weeds on this.

00:27:49.420 Men who have a hard time with the Holy Spirit didn't have a good relationship with their mom.

00:27:55.440 Okay.

00:27:56.500 Is that more of a feminine energy? 1.00

00:27:58.420 Yeah.

00:27:58.680 Well, just because, yeah, well, it's just because the Holy Spirit is described as comforter, counselor, alongside of you.

00:28:06.000 Got it.

00:28:06.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:06.700 Sure.

00:28:07.040 Makes sense.

00:28:07.540 Okay.

00:28:07.900 Yeah.

00:28:08.840 It doesn't resonate because of that, you're saying.

00:28:10.920 Yeah.

00:28:11.300 For guys who have big mother issues, right?

00:28:14.060 And just issues with women in general. 1.00

00:28:15.960 I don't think the Holy Spirit is a feminine spirit.

00:28:18.200 I'm just saying that there's a more tender side.

00:28:19.920 There's a connection there.

00:28:20.820 Yeah.

00:28:22.260 So, yeah, I projected father onto God until I realized, wait a second, they had two totally, completely different people, you know, beings.

00:28:32.000 Mm-hmm.

00:28:33.480 And you asked, because it's related to God loves human partners.

00:28:38.720 We are highly relational beings.

00:28:40.740 Solitary confinement is a horrible punishment.

00:28:43.140 You begin to get a picture of the world.

00:28:45.280 If you want a world in which love is real, you have to allow free will.

00:28:52.960 You can't do puppets.

00:28:55.420 It's not, it's, it's not love.

00:28:58.320 It's not choices.

00:28:59.300 It's not learning.

00:29:00.200 Exactly.

00:29:00.640 You're.

00:29:01.720 Exactly.

00:29:02.320 Obligate.

00:29:02.720 You're forced to.

00:29:03.240 Exactly.

00:29:03.580 It's not camaraderie.

00:29:05.000 Mm-hmm.

00:29:05.240 It's not friendship, right?

00:29:06.780 You don't want your friends to hang out with you because they have to.

00:29:09.300 Right.

00:29:09.920 Right?

00:29:10.100 It's not real.

00:29:10.720 Oh, man.

00:29:11.880 Like, you're free.

00:29:12.800 I don't want that.

00:29:13.900 I want you to, I want you to come with me, whether we're rafting or whatever we're doing.

00:29:19.500 I want you to come with me because you want to be there.

00:29:21.660 Because we're in this together.

00:29:22.880 The stoke is together, right?

00:29:25.520 That's how God is.

00:29:26.940 And so God allowed free will for angels and men. 0.98

00:29:30.840 And angels and men, some of them decided, screw you, man. 0.97

00:29:35.880 Right? 0.99

00:29:36.540 Yeah.

00:29:36.980 Yeah.

00:29:37.360 We're out.

00:29:38.120 That's what led evil into the world.

00:29:39.820 It's not, it's not, why did God cause evil?

00:29:41.980 He didn't cause evil.

00:29:43.140 He allowed agents free will, humans and angels.

00:29:47.540 And we drove the plane into the side of the mountain.

00:29:51.380 I also feel like that's why, that's part of the reason I feel like we have such a responsibility as men to ward that off.

00:30:00.320 You know, you think about horrific things, you know, sexual perversion and sexual violence against women.

00:30:07.580 Yeah. 0.94

00:30:08.020 And atrocities and wars and Christian persecution in Syria going on right now.

00:30:13.100 Yeah.

00:30:13.520 And the Congo.

00:30:14.560 Yeah.

00:30:14.760 And that is part of the reason why it's so crucial that we as fathers and husbands, leaders in our communities, owners of businesses are so vigilant.

00:30:25.060 Yeah.

00:30:25.280 Because we have to fight those things off that just are, to your point earlier.

00:30:29.520 Yes.

00:30:30.040 That's right.

00:30:30.520 Evil is real and we need to be aware of it.

00:30:32.160 Yeah.

00:30:32.380 Yeah.

00:30:32.540 That's right.

00:30:33.100 Teddy Roosevelt's great line.

00:30:34.540 People sleep peacefully at night because rough men stand ready to do harm against those that would be violent.

00:30:41.920 Yes.

00:30:42.520 And you see that.

00:30:43.720 It is so deep in boys.

00:30:45.480 Why does he want to be Spider-Man?

00:30:47.620 Why does he want to be a Jedi Knight?

00:30:49.640 My boys would make guns out of every stick they picked up in the list.

00:30:53.040 I still do that.

00:30:53.640 Yes.

00:30:54.660 Yes.

00:30:55.480 Bazookas and all that.

00:30:56.720 Yeah.

00:30:57.300 Okay.

00:30:57.720 Because the warrior heart, God put into every boy because one day he's going to have to be that for his family and his community.

00:31:08.280 Right?

00:31:08.960 And it was, okay, so this is back to why the church thing wasn't appealing.

00:31:12.640 We didn't appeal to the warrior.

00:31:14.560 Right?

00:31:15.080 We even said the warrior is wrong.

00:31:17.700 Right?

00:31:18.200 Don't be aggressive.

00:31:19.200 Right.

00:31:19.660 Just be nice.

00:31:21.140 Well, that's soul killing.

00:31:22.580 For a boy.

00:31:23.340 Yes.

00:31:23.960 Little boy does not.

00:31:24.980 He doesn't want to, you know, give me that lightsaber.

00:31:27.520 All right.

00:31:28.020 Right?

00:31:28.400 Here's a marshmallow.

00:31:30.040 Or I even think about conflict with young boys.

00:31:32.580 You know, I've got three boys and a girl.

00:31:34.880 And my youngest in particular, he wants to fight physically.

00:31:39.400 Yep.

00:31:39.580 And I actually think it can be a healthy thing.

00:31:43.180 Yep.

00:31:43.580 If you let boys solve a little bit within reason. 0.97

00:31:47.480 Yes.

00:31:47.900 Let them tussle.

00:31:49.380 Yes.

00:31:49.680 Like, let them roughhouse. 0.90

00:31:51.240 Yes.

00:31:51.380 Let them, if they need to fight it out, let them fight it out.

00:31:54.380 Because at some point, and you know the interesting thing about, that I've seen with boys fighting, probably more so than women who, young girls, I'm talking primarily, who fight, is they'll, with women, they'll remain mortal enemies forever. 0.81

00:32:10.080 Yes.

00:32:10.820 And with boys, you see two boys get in a fight, and they're punching each other and hitting each other and biting, doing whatever they can do to win.

00:32:18.040 And then an hour later, they're like, all right, we're square.

00:32:20.560 You want to go fishing?

00:32:21.460 Yeah, exactly.

00:32:22.180 Yes.

00:32:22.600 It's such an interesting phenomenon to me.

00:32:24.200 Isn't that?

00:32:24.680 Yeah.

00:32:25.020 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:25.400 Because we're wired so differently.

00:32:27.780 Wired so differently.

00:32:29.940 If we can affirm the warrior heart in the boy and hook it up to a good cause, right?

00:32:36.820 And so when Sam, our oldest, used to wail on his younger brothers, I would not punish him for being strong.

00:32:44.080 Say, Sam, you are strong.

00:32:46.420 God made you strong to protect your brothers.

00:32:49.700 Okay?

00:32:50.440 Channeling it.

00:32:51.120 Exactly.

00:32:52.020 Hook it up to something good.

00:32:54.080 Yeah, that's huge.

00:32:55.080 And then, therefore, that's Jesus, right?

00:32:57.920 He wants warriors to join him in his fight against evil.

00:33:05.660 I agree.

00:33:06.540 And you need to be hardened to be able to do that.

00:33:08.520 You do.

00:33:09.260 You can't be soft.

00:33:10.280 That's right.

00:33:11.240 Yeah, that is an interesting take.

00:33:13.680 And what's so fascinating right now, Ryan, is look at all the cold plunging and the ultra running and the heavy lifting and all these programs, the meat diet.

00:33:26.420 Like, men are looking for rigor.

00:33:29.460 Train me.

00:33:30.920 Doggone it.

00:33:31.780 Show me. 0.59

00:33:32.560 Show me how.

00:33:33.760 Show me the way, right?

00:33:35.220 Yeah.

00:33:35.620 So you get guys like Jordan Peterson that get these huge followings.

00:33:39.440 Men are looking for fathering. 0.95

00:33:42.040 Show me the way.

00:33:43.800 And Jordan Peterson shoots straights with guys.

00:33:45.940 He's like, stop being Peter Pan.

00:33:47.460 Yeah. 1.00

00:33:47.660 Suck it up, man. 0.99

00:33:48.420 He is an interesting phenomenon because he's not somebody I would generally consider to be in the physical warrior realm. 0.99

00:33:55.560 Right.

00:33:56.120 But from an intellectual perspective and the way that he communicates, he has that presence about him.

00:34:01.300 Exactly.

00:34:01.800 He's a different kind of warrior.

00:34:03.180 Definitely.

00:34:03.740 Yeah.

00:34:03.920 Because then you take somebody like Jocko Willink.

00:34:08.180 Yeah.

00:34:08.380 And he is more, he's also an intellect, but that's often overshadowed by his physical presence.

00:34:17.300 Yes.

00:34:17.720 His military career.

00:34:19.640 Yes.

00:34:20.000 And both are attractive to you.

00:34:21.940 Yeah.

00:34:21.960 Or Joe Rogan.

00:34:22.980 Right.

00:34:23.440 Same fighter.

00:34:24.340 Come on.

00:34:24.840 Yeah. 0.97

00:34:25.200 Shoot straight. 0.94

00:34:26.480 Man up. 0.99

00:34:27.400 Let's go.

00:34:28.040 And, oh, man, guys, like, if you will look at the wilderness, you will learn so much about the nature of God.

00:34:36.000 He is wild.

00:34:37.560 He is dangerous.

00:34:39.700 He is immensely good and full of life.

00:34:44.240 Right?

00:34:44.600 The world is just teeming with life.

00:34:47.540 Okay?

00:34:48.500 That's who you want to follow.

00:34:49.720 Yeah.

00:34:51.320 Man, I'm just going to step away from my conversation with John briefly.

00:34:54.520 Men today are lost.

00:34:55.920 We really are.

00:34:56.400 We're isolated.

00:34:58.020 Many, many men are drifting without a clear mission, without a brotherhood to push them forward.

00:35:02.880 And the world has fed us a lie that we should figure out all on our own, that asking for guidance is weakness, that mediocrity is acceptable.

00:35:11.800 But deep inside, you know that's not the life that you were meant to live.

00:35:15.360 You were made for more.

00:35:16.600 More strength, more purpose, more discipline, even more impact.

00:35:21.960 And the Iron Council is not just another group.

00:35:23.920 It's a battle-tested brotherhood of men who refuse to settle.

00:35:28.020 They demand excellence from themselves, and also they demand it from each other.

00:35:31.600 So this is your call to action today, guys.

00:35:33.540 You need a tribe that sharpens you, that challenges you, and holds you accountable to the man that you're destined to become.

00:35:38.960 The Iron Council gives you the structure and the tools and support to reclaim control over your life, your fitness, your mindset, your relationships, and ultimately your mission in life.

00:35:49.660 So no more excuses, no more waiting, step up, and stand shoulder to shoulder with driven men, and really at the end of the day, forge yourself into the leader that you were born to be.

00:35:59.700 We're open right now.

00:36:01.100 Check it out at orderofman.com slash Iron Council.

00:36:05.180 Again, that's orderofman.com slash Iron Council.

00:36:08.080 Well, you know, as we were talking about people that we naturally gravitate towards as men, there's another one that comes to mind, but doesn't harness it and channel it through, I think, real virtuous living, and that's somebody like Andrew Tate.

00:36:23.740 Exactly.

00:36:24.140 But he has that warrior communication style.

00:36:28.480 Right.

00:36:29.220 We're in the matrix.

00:36:30.680 We're fighting against everything.

00:36:33.240 He hasn't channeled that towards something virtuous.

00:36:35.860 Exactly.

00:36:36.460 But it is still attractive to a lot of men who aren't able to differentiate what is righteous and what isn't.

00:36:41.580 Yeah, yeah, that's right.

00:36:43.280 How do you do that?

00:36:44.220 Yeah.

00:36:45.020 How do you?

00:36:45.820 How do you know who to follow?

00:36:48.060 I mean, obviously, follow Christ, follow God, sure, but there's other people that we should be looking to for guidance and inspiration, I think.

00:36:55.240 Yes.

00:36:56.920 Jesus gave us this really easy tool.

00:37:00.000 He said, you'll know them by their fruit.

00:37:02.620 You'll know it by—you can test a school, a government, an idea, a company by that basic idea.

00:37:08.820 Well, what's the fruit of it?

00:37:09.720 What does it accomplish?

00:37:10.580 What does it do to people, right?

00:37:12.460 Does this make men better men?

00:37:15.540 Does it make them better dads?

00:37:17.680 That's good fruit.

00:37:18.900 Follow that.

00:37:20.420 Yeah.

00:37:21.060 It's as easy as that.

00:37:22.120 It is.

00:37:22.760 Simple.

00:37:23.100 Yeah.

00:37:23.340 And if it doesn't do that, no matter how much hoorah is there, guys, it's narcissistic.

00:37:29.600 It's selfish.

00:37:30.660 I mean, let's just be honest.

00:37:31.820 A lot of that stuff is turned inward to, I just want to feel better.

00:37:36.480 Right.

00:37:37.160 Right?

00:37:37.920 And I want to feel strong.

00:37:40.120 You go, okay, in order to serve what?

00:37:42.860 That one of the—this is, again, the nature lesson for boys.

00:37:48.320 The big lesson is you're invited into a wonderful world, a world full of adventure.

00:37:54.380 Okay?

00:37:55.340 It's not about you.

00:37:56.720 Right.

00:37:57.740 It's not about you.

00:37:59.200 Okay?

00:38:00.320 That lesson, many men have not still learned.

00:38:05.320 It's not about you, pal.

00:38:07.460 Right?

00:38:07.700 This isn't about the next car, the next motorcycle, the next, you know, stoke.

00:38:12.160 Like, there's a narcissistic version of the warrior life.

00:38:16.200 It's not about you, pal.

00:38:17.780 Who are you living for?

00:38:20.040 Who are you laying your life down for?

00:38:23.380 Right?

00:38:24.020 That's the gold.

00:38:25.540 Yeah.

00:38:26.200 Well, I think there's this big thing in society.

00:38:28.380 It's just like this happiness movement, maybe, where it's, you know, I just want to be happy.

00:38:33.960 Well, that's easy.

00:38:36.100 You know, go—like you were saying, go change the thermostat.

00:38:39.020 Exactly.

00:38:39.300 Go watch something on your computer.

00:38:41.540 Absolutely.

00:38:42.220 Go partake in your drug of choice.

00:38:45.900 Yep.

00:38:46.360 I mean, there's all sorts of ways to be happy in the moment.

00:38:49.080 That's right.

00:38:49.360 That's right.

00:38:49.760 And here's the fascinating thing.

00:38:51.100 You shall know them by their fruit.

00:38:53.320 Those people aren't very happy.

00:38:55.880 Interestingly enough.

00:38:56.820 Isn't that fascinating?

00:38:57.820 Yeah.

00:38:57.960 No matter how much they buy, no matter how much they eat, no matter how many vacations

00:39:03.840 they take, how many women they sleep with, they're like, why am I not happy?

00:39:09.080 Right.

00:39:09.560 Because that chasing happiness is the big lie.

00:39:12.380 So you're saying that the better pursuit—or what are you saying?

00:39:16.900 Is it chasing service to others?

00:39:18.720 Or what is it that you suggest men pursue?

00:39:22.280 You first need a life with God.

00:39:25.500 God is the great reality.

00:39:28.880 And when you deny reality, you begin to move into really bad human behavior.

00:39:34.680 Okay?

00:39:35.000 Sure.

00:39:35.480 Yeah, yeah.

00:39:35.800 I mean, this is Scott Peck.

00:39:36.860 Years and years ago, The Road Less Traveled.

00:39:38.940 It's one of the first big sort of wake up, hey people books.

00:39:42.360 And Scott Peck says, emotional health is accepting reality at all cost.

00:39:48.380 Yeah.

00:39:49.100 Well, that's interesting.

00:39:49.900 You know, I thought about this with all the transgender issues.

00:39:52.180 I just saw a study the other day, because the big talking point is you're doing this

00:39:56.820 for their health, to reaffirm their gender.

00:39:59.380 Right.

00:39:59.580 And they're less depressed, anxious, suicidal, et cetera.

00:40:02.560 I just saw a study the other day that they had reviewed these individuals over, I think

00:40:08.020 it was two to three years.

00:40:08.940 And lo and behold, people that have assumed they're another gender or even taking steps

00:40:16.240 in surgery towards being another gender are less happy, more anxious, more depressed, 0.63

00:40:24.040 and more suicidal.

00:40:24.900 That's right.

00:40:25.360 Because they're not accepting reality.

00:40:26.600 Exactly.

00:40:27.260 Yeah.

00:40:27.520 So Peck's thing was emotional health is accepting reality at any cost.

00:40:31.800 And emotional disease or mental disease, mental unwellness is denying reality at any cost.

00:40:39.260 Well, God is the great reality.

00:40:42.460 So the first thing we have to do is come in alignment with him.

00:40:46.180 Go, you are my father.

00:40:47.760 I am your son.

00:40:49.440 I'm sorry for living such a self-centered life.

00:40:53.440 I'm sorry.

00:40:53.960 It's been all about me.

00:40:55.420 I don't want it to be all about me.

00:40:57.660 What is the story you have for me?

00:41:00.540 What is the story you have for me?

00:41:02.420 And guys, like that life, that life is phenomenal.

00:41:06.340 And I'll give you two stories on two levels.

00:41:10.880 So we're elk hunting several years ago.

00:41:13.880 And we're on the edge of this canyon.

00:41:16.100 We can hear the bull bugling down in there.

00:41:18.080 He's got a huge group of cows with him, some satellites.

00:41:21.900 And I'm standing on the edge of the canyon waiting because normally what they do is in

00:41:27.680 the evening, they feed up into the meadow that's behind me.

00:41:30.500 So I'm in like the perfect ambush spot.

00:41:32.220 Right when they come in.

00:41:33.100 Totally.

00:41:33.420 Sure.

00:41:34.120 Well, they don't.

00:41:35.500 Of course.

00:41:36.160 Of course.

00:41:36.660 And they wander off down the canyon.

00:41:38.800 And I'm just like, dang, man, I've been here all day waiting for them to come up.

00:41:42.580 Yeah.

00:41:42.720 Right?

00:41:43.300 And so God, my father says, get in the woods.

00:41:47.500 In other words, bomb down in there.

00:41:49.020 And I'm like, Papa, I love you.

00:41:50.900 But the elk are gone if you didn't notice.

00:41:53.520 Okay?

00:41:54.200 He's like, trust me, get in the woods.

00:41:55.920 I want to clarify.

00:41:57.000 You're saying God or you're saying your father?

00:41:58.760 No, God.

00:41:59.360 Okay.

00:41:59.720 I just wanted to clarify.

00:42:00.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:42:00.880 God.

00:42:01.440 Yeah.

00:42:01.740 My earthly father is now with him in heaven.

00:42:05.260 Got it.

00:42:06.800 I'm like, Father, I'll obey because you are in charge, but they're gone.

00:42:14.940 So I go down in the woods.

00:42:16.580 I get against a tree.

00:42:17.880 I get in a fairly decent ambush spot.

00:42:20.260 And I just wait.

00:42:21.220 And the entire herd turns around and works their way back into the woods.

00:42:26.620 And pretty soon, I am surrounded by elk.

00:42:29.720 It was such a cool night.

00:42:31.500 I didn't end up killing a bull.

00:42:32.620 I killed a cow that night.

00:42:33.780 But it was awesome.

00:42:34.700 But you had an amazing experience.

00:42:36.060 Oh, it was incredible.

00:42:37.180 Okay.

00:42:37.840 So with that, I want to ask a follow-up question.

00:42:40.360 Is that, how is that relevant to God's design and purpose?

00:42:49.980 You know, it's like sometimes I wonder, like, does it matter?

00:42:53.480 It does matter.

00:42:54.120 I remember when I was, and I'll share one quick story.

00:42:56.700 I want to hear the end of yours.

00:42:57.560 But when I was playing baseball, when I was a kid, we were, I think it was my junior year

00:43:03.360 and we were in the playoffs and it was a very close game.

00:43:06.360 If we would have won that game, we would have went to the state championship.

00:43:10.060 And I remember sitting in the dugout and I said, and I said a prayer, God, please help

00:43:14.760 us play well.

00:43:15.400 Please help us win this game.

00:43:16.620 Yeah.

00:43:17.080 And in a moment, I think of clarity.

00:43:19.760 I thought to myself, well, all the other players on the other team are praying for

00:43:23.260 the same thing for themselves.

00:43:24.660 Yeah.

00:43:25.700 Does this actually matter?

00:43:27.300 Yes.

00:43:28.060 And so I would like to hear why it matters.

00:43:30.200 Well, first off, the relationship matters.

00:43:32.240 The relationship is everything.

00:43:33.860 Just like the last thing you want to lose is relationship with your daughter and relationship

00:43:38.500 with your son.

00:43:39.320 Sure.

00:43:39.740 I mean, that's the worst, right?

00:43:41.280 To lose relationship.

00:43:42.420 Okay.

00:43:42.720 Well, God feels the same way.

00:43:44.320 Okay.

00:43:44.500 So the relationship is what matters.

00:43:46.660 And what those smaller lessons teach us, because yours wasn't a question of obedience.

00:43:53.580 Yours was a question of, we'd really love to have your blessing here.

00:43:56.140 Yeah, please bless us with this.

00:43:56.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:43:57.080 And who knows why those things do and don't work out.

00:43:58.940 That's a good point.

00:43:59.860 Obedience versus, that's a good point.

00:44:01.780 Okay.

00:44:02.440 So then a bigger scale obedience.

00:44:04.540 So I'm a young therapist.

00:44:05.940 I'm sitting in my office one night and I'm in a marriage session.

00:44:11.540 And after the session, I just lingered there because I just felt like God wanted to say

00:44:17.520 something to me.

00:44:18.520 And he said, you're only talking to two people.

00:44:23.320 I want you to talk to a lot more than that.

00:44:26.160 That's all he said.

00:44:27.180 I'm like, what?

00:44:29.000 What?

00:44:29.820 What?

00:44:30.640 You know, so then I kind of pursue it, which is the relationship.

00:44:33.820 And over the course of a week, I'm like, what do you want me to do?

00:44:36.280 And he said, quit your job.

00:44:38.460 I have bigger things for you.

00:44:39.920 And so I go on the obedience, right?

00:44:45.100 Massive obedience required.

00:44:46.980 Massive obedience and trust.

00:44:48.960 Same week, my publisher calls.

00:44:50.940 I'd written an initial book with my colleague called The Sacred Romance.

00:44:55.220 They called and they said, hey, we'd really like you to write again.

00:44:58.080 What do you have?

00:44:58.980 And I said, well, one of the books I want to write is a book for men called Wild at Heart.

00:45:02.500 And that launched what has now been a 25-year wild story of adventure.

00:45:11.240 I mean, they're using Wild at Heart in the Medellin cartel drug prisons.

00:45:16.500 Dudes are coming to Christ.

00:45:17.740 Yes, they do Wild at Heart Bible studies down there all over the world.

00:45:22.080 They use it in monasteries in Slovakia, right?

00:45:26.000 I mean, just wildness, wildness.

00:45:28.740 Well, because you hook up in obedience to the wild one, right?

00:45:32.900 And follow him.

00:45:34.580 So I would say that the idea is, what's the first move you said?

00:45:38.100 The first move is the relationship.

00:45:39.720 You're my father.

00:45:40.500 I'm your son.

00:45:41.480 I want to do this together.

00:45:42.820 Yeah.

00:45:43.260 Right?

00:45:43.760 Yeah.

00:45:44.080 Yeah, it's huge.

00:45:45.060 Well, I also think as you were saying, I didn't consider that.

00:45:47.660 The obedience part versus, hey, bless me with what I think I need or want versus, I'll follow you.

00:45:54.260 Yes.

00:45:54.780 That's interesting.

00:45:55.700 I also, as you were saying that, I was thinking, he's not going to give you something grand like leading millions of men across the planet if you can't walk down the canyon and go sit by a tree that he told you to.

00:46:08.580 Exactly.

00:46:09.520 That's exactly right.

00:46:10.680 And see, oh, this is what happens.

00:46:12.300 So there are stages to the masculine journey.

00:46:14.680 Okay.

00:46:15.700 You go from beloved son to the cowboy stage to the warrior, the lover, the king, the sage.

00:46:21.400 We can unpack that another time.

00:46:22.960 Yeah, it's a lot.

00:46:23.760 Okay.

00:46:24.420 But there are stages of development and you see it in every boy's life.

00:46:27.820 Every boy's life.

00:46:28.840 He gets around 12, 13 years old.

00:46:30.680 Something shifts in him.

00:46:32.820 He wants a bigger adventure.

00:46:34.780 He wants more challenge, more training, right?

00:46:38.080 Wants independence.

00:46:39.020 I've seen that in my boys.

00:46:40.440 Yes, absolutely.

00:46:41.440 Right?

00:46:41.600 Because something's shifting from the Lego years, right?

00:46:45.380 Into what I call, I call them the cowboy years because he needs hard work and adventure.

00:46:50.540 That's what trains the young man, hard work and adventure.

00:46:53.460 But here's the point.

00:46:55.460 Too many men become kings.

00:46:58.280 Give me a big ministry.

00:46:59.580 Give me a big company.

00:47:00.820 Make me successful.

00:47:02.120 And there's still boys inside.

00:47:04.380 And that's why they blow up their worlds, right?

00:47:06.620 I need a different wife. 1.00

00:47:08.000 I need three different women, right? 1.00

00:47:09.980 I'm going to buy myself a bunch of cars.

00:47:11.880 I'm going to do all this.

00:47:12.800 He's still a boy inside.

00:47:14.340 But he's been given a man's kingdom, right?

00:47:18.660 That's why you don't want that.

00:47:21.040 A lot of times, God will withhold his blessing because you aren't ready to handle it.

00:47:27.840 I've thought about that in hardship is that, you know, whether it's, you know, I went through a divorce.

00:47:33.120 I went through alcohol abuse and addiction.

00:47:35.280 And, you know, everybody has things they've gone through.

00:47:38.780 We all have things.

00:47:39.580 And one of the thoughts that has helped me get through those challenging times is if you can get through this, then something better, greater, grander is on the others.

00:47:51.940 If you can't get through it, you're just going to have to repeat it.

00:47:55.240 Yeah.

00:47:55.660 And I don't want to repeat what I'm experiencing right now.

00:47:58.200 That's right.

00:47:58.940 Yeah, that's good.

00:47:59.800 Yeah, my friend Dan says, don't waste your pain.

00:48:02.820 Don't waste your pain, man.

00:48:04.420 Learn the lessons so that you don't have to repeat them.

00:48:07.560 How do we introduce this?

00:48:09.700 Let's say we move from the Lego stage, like you're saying, to this King stage, without that Cowboy stage.

00:48:18.060 How do we infuse that into our lives?

00:48:21.600 How do we recognize it and infuse it into our lives?

00:48:23.880 And conversely, how do we do that for our boys?

00:48:27.080 Yeah, it's beautiful.

00:48:28.240 First off, among men, all of us are unfinished men.

00:48:31.760 All of us.

00:48:32.640 We're all still, we're houses under renovation.

00:48:34.960 Okay.

00:48:35.780 That's okay.

00:48:36.820 It doesn't disqualify you.

00:48:38.920 It just means, yep, there's work to be done.

00:48:41.220 There's things to be healed, things to be strengthened.

00:48:44.100 So if you are biologically at the age of manhood, but you don't feel very well formed inside.

00:48:52.460 Yeah.

00:48:52.840 Yeah.

00:48:53.260 You're going to want to get yourself in the context of some men who are chasing that.

00:48:57.580 Right?

00:48:58.320 I mean, anything and everything from join the Y, man.

00:49:01.560 Go down there and play hoops every Thursday night with guys.

00:49:04.000 That will form you.

00:49:05.960 Yeah.

00:49:06.500 It will.

00:49:07.600 Right?

00:49:08.040 No doubt.

00:49:08.780 Okay.

00:49:09.200 And you learn a lot about yourself and those types of environments.

00:49:11.500 Oh, it's embarrassing.

00:49:12.040 And other people.

00:49:13.160 Totally.

00:49:13.600 Yeah.

00:49:13.800 Right?

00:49:14.100 Where's that rage from?

00:49:15.260 Yeah, exactly.

00:49:16.060 Where's that shame from?

00:49:17.660 Yeah.

00:49:18.020 Yeah, exactly.

00:49:18.800 Yeah.

00:49:19.040 Get yourself in the context of some men who are chasing that.

00:49:23.480 Right?

00:49:24.820 And so that's why we built, finally, like we've got this thing on our website now.

00:49:28.240 It's the coolest thing in the world.

00:49:29.300 It's called Wild at Heart Local.

00:49:31.040 And you can get on there and it literally shows you the world.

00:49:33.800 You put in your address and it shows you here are men in your area who are chasing this.

00:49:37.900 Oh, that's cool.

00:49:38.540 Join this group.

00:49:39.240 Go to this thing.

00:49:40.020 Join this thing.

00:49:40.820 It's like get into something.

00:49:42.760 Right.

00:49:43.120 Okay.

00:49:43.820 Get into something.

00:49:45.880 For boys, as dads, we turn and we go, oh.

00:49:51.460 So their initiation into manhood is a big part of my job.

00:49:57.700 Absolutely.

00:49:58.380 Okay.

00:49:58.800 He's got two fundamental needs.

00:50:01.040 He needs to know you adore him and he needs to know he has what it takes.

00:50:05.380 Right.

00:50:05.780 Those are his core questions.

00:50:07.080 I've heard the second one.

00:50:08.040 I haven't heard the first.

00:50:08.940 You've talked a lot about do I have what it takes?

00:50:11.140 Yes.

00:50:11.380 But the love is the foundational thing.

00:50:14.800 Right.

00:50:15.260 Because otherwise it's fear and performance then.

00:50:18.160 Okay.

00:50:18.700 But he goes, my dad loves me.

00:50:20.640 Loves to wrestle.

00:50:21.880 Loves to read books.

00:50:23.040 We go for ice cream.

00:50:24.520 We ride bikes.

00:50:25.700 You know, he just likes me.

00:50:27.600 Okay.

00:50:27.740 That's foundational.

00:50:29.500 He's got to have that.

00:50:31.420 And this is something that you communicate over a thousand lessons.

00:50:37.400 Right.

00:50:38.060 Where he says, hey, dad, are you free tonight?

00:50:40.040 And you go, yes.

00:50:41.940 Even though inside you're dying.

00:50:43.060 Every time you're like, oh, I got that book that I got to write or that project or the game.

00:50:48.020 Yeah.

00:50:48.100 Right.

00:50:48.500 Yeah.

00:50:48.680 You go, yes, you are worth my time.

00:50:50.980 I still have to do that with my sons.

00:50:53.240 You are worth my time.

00:50:55.100 Yeah.

00:50:55.380 Okay.

00:50:56.180 And so I will deliberately pursue my adult sons.

00:50:59.020 I will say, you want to go for lunch?

00:51:00.640 You want to go fishing?

00:51:02.020 Right.

00:51:02.500 You want to hang out?

00:51:03.700 You want to take a trip with me?

00:51:05.600 Right.

00:51:06.200 You want to come on this trip I'm going on?

00:51:07.940 Okay.

00:51:09.100 Boys crave that.

00:51:10.540 Men crave that. 0.95

00:51:11.840 Right.

00:51:12.120 You are worth my time.

00:51:13.100 I love you.

00:51:13.880 Okay.

00:51:14.140 And then you both tell him you have what it takes.

00:51:18.300 But the more important thing is that you lead him into experiences where he discovers it for himself.

00:51:23.440 Right.

00:51:23.900 You set him up for success.

00:51:25.620 Does there have to be opportunities of failure in those experiences?

00:51:28.520 There will be.

00:51:29.780 Not even whether you decide or not.

00:51:31.400 Exactly.

00:51:32.720 Guaranteed.

00:51:33.580 Yeah.

00:51:33.900 It will happen.

00:51:35.100 You know, so he takes the training wheels off, you know, and he gets the bike.

00:51:38.160 He's going to crash.

00:51:39.020 Right.

00:51:39.400 Okay.

00:51:39.760 That's all right.

00:51:40.640 If dad's there to pick him up, those don't end up being shameful lessons.

00:51:45.360 If dad's there to pick him up and say, you're all right, son.

00:51:48.380 You're all right.

00:51:48.960 You're okay.

00:51:49.440 I love you.

00:51:50.220 Let's get back on and try it again.

00:51:52.220 Okay.

00:51:52.680 Over the course of the years.

00:51:54.220 And then you don't do the hardcore stuff first.

00:51:57.260 And I think this is why my youngest son doesn't like hunting, was I took him into it too young.

00:52:01.900 Yeah.

00:52:02.800 Yeah.

00:52:03.160 And it's just his tender little heart.

00:52:04.940 Yeah.

00:52:05.260 You know, and killing that first deer and all that.

00:52:07.220 I just think he wasn't ready for it.

00:52:08.540 It was too much in the moment.

00:52:10.380 Big time.

00:52:10.960 Yeah.

00:52:11.240 Yeah.

00:52:11.460 Big time.

00:52:12.100 And so age-appropriate challenges where he discovers, whoa, I do have what it takes.

00:52:20.200 I did do that.

00:52:21.180 Right?

00:52:21.420 I jumped my bike over the jump.

00:52:23.220 I ran in the race.

00:52:25.200 You know, I signed up for speech class and I crushed it.

00:52:29.620 Like it doesn't always have to be outdoor stuff.

00:52:31.500 Sure.

00:52:31.900 Yeah.

00:52:32.160 It shouldn't always be.

00:52:33.220 Right.

00:52:33.780 It's got to be well-rounded.

00:52:34.960 Yeah.

00:52:35.160 And so you're initiating your son into young manhood with the confidence that you are loved

00:52:40.480 and you have what it takes.

00:52:42.100 And then the big lesson we've been talking about today is you have a strength and it's

00:52:46.160 for others.

00:52:47.960 Figure out what it is and who you're supposed to serve.

00:52:50.240 Who you're going to serve.

00:52:51.500 Yeah.

00:52:52.260 Who you're going to follow.

00:52:54.160 Right?

00:52:55.080 Yeah.

00:52:56.220 Is it, it's not the same for women. 0.96

00:52:58.800 I was going to ask if it's the same for daughters.

00:53:00.540 It's not.

00:53:01.240 I imagine there's elements that are similar.

00:53:03.480 Yep.

00:53:03.620 But what would you say is, for lack of a better term, the initiation process for a

00:53:09.380 young daughter into womanhood.

00:53:10.900 Yes.

00:53:11.500 Yes.

00:53:11.660 Absolutely.

00:53:12.240 From a man's perspective.

00:53:13.300 Obviously your mom needs to be involved and do things that you can't do as a man. 1.00

00:53:16.960 But yes.

00:53:18.020 Well, this is a really fascinating thing.

00:53:20.180 So boys and girls learn value from mom.

00:53:27.220 And it goes all the way back to you are worth feeding.

00:53:30.920 Internal, internal value and worth.

00:53:33.220 Yes.

00:53:33.440 Okay.

00:53:33.760 Internal worth comes from mom.

00:53:35.240 You are literally worth taking care of.

00:53:37.380 Right.

00:53:37.760 Okay.

00:53:38.080 I will clothe you.

00:53:38.880 I will feed you.

00:53:39.660 You know, you're worth nurturing.

00:53:40.740 And you can't do absolutely anything for me and you're still worth it.

00:53:44.500 Bingo.

00:53:45.000 Right.

00:53:45.360 Okay.

00:53:46.040 They learn gender identity from dad.

00:53:49.520 Isn't that fascinating?

00:53:50.900 So the little girl, when she puts on her twirling dress, she says, daddy, do you see me?

00:53:56.000 Do you delight in me?

00:53:57.120 Do you think I'm pretty?

00:53:58.580 Right?

00:53:59.020 Yes.

00:53:59.500 Oh, that's huge.

00:54:01.000 And if she, the number one predictor of whether a girl's going to sleep with boys in high school 1.00

00:54:05.220 is if she has a dad who loves her.

00:54:06.940 Yeah.

00:54:08.020 I've heard that because I think Dr. Warren Farrell talks about this and Dr. Leonard Sachs

00:54:13.920 talks about this and he, I'm paraphrasing, but they said that if she can learn to be valuable

00:54:21.460 in a man's eyes outside of her sexual attractiveness, she won't have to use sexual attractiveness 0.90

00:54:27.620 to get the attention of men. 1.00

00:54:29.200 To get love.

00:54:30.020 Yeah.

00:54:30.300 Exactly.

00:54:31.180 Yeah.

00:54:31.360 Interesting.

00:54:31.800 Right.

00:54:32.480 Yeah.

00:54:32.780 So she's asking two similar questions.

00:54:35.200 She's asking, do you love me?

00:54:37.660 Same question.

00:54:38.880 But the question, do I have what it takes?

00:54:40.580 Not so much.

00:54:41.900 The question for her is more, am I worth fighting for?

00:54:45.760 Will anybody fight for me?

00:54:48.160 Okay.

00:54:48.400 And then, yeah, courage lessons because little girls need to learn bravery.

00:54:53.480 Sure.

00:54:53.920 Right?

00:54:54.260 Absolutely.

00:54:55.380 Yes.

00:54:55.820 And that your particular gifting matters.

00:55:00.140 Right?

00:55:00.540 So if you are athletic, let's go into athletics.

00:55:03.300 But if you're not, I'm not going to force you there.

00:55:05.280 Right.

00:55:05.680 I value who you are.

00:55:07.220 I value what your soul is wired to do.

00:55:10.040 And there's an initiation she goes through, but we haven't written that book yet.

00:55:14.380 Not yet.

00:55:15.240 Yet being the key word.

00:55:16.600 Yes.

00:55:16.900 Because that is one of the questions I get a lot.

00:55:19.000 Obviously, this is a men's movement and I speak to men and boys are easier than my daughter.

00:55:25.440 Just naturally, I think that's pretty common.

00:55:27.980 Yes.

00:55:28.400 But I do get a lot of questions about, I've got this girl and I don't know what to do.

00:55:33.900 Yes.

00:55:34.500 And I get it.

00:55:35.200 I can feel that.

00:55:36.200 Yeah.

00:55:36.900 Yeah, exactly.

00:55:38.100 Yeah.

00:55:39.000 What would you say?

00:55:39.900 I want to go back to some-

00:55:40.900 For one thing, I would say, make sure she has women mentors. 1.00

00:55:44.520 Good women in her life.

00:55:45.660 Yep.

00:55:46.200 Yeah.

00:55:46.560 And mature women in her life.

00:55:48.960 Aunts, grandmothers, teachers, coaches.

00:55:53.060 Yeah.

00:55:53.800 One thing I've often thought about too is in those contexts is let them do womanly things that you don't understand. 1.00

00:56:02.320 Exactly.

00:56:02.940 Like go dress up and do a tea party.

00:56:05.780 Exactly.

00:56:06.000 Go do girls night out.

00:56:07.460 Like do your-

00:56:08.860 Like what?

00:56:09.320 I don't know.

00:56:10.040 Yes.

00:56:10.460 It doesn't appeal to me.

00:56:11.660 Yep.

00:56:12.200 But I don't need to understand it.

00:56:13.580 Yes.

00:56:14.040 But conversely, the women need to let the men go do what the men do. 1.00

00:56:19.260 That's right.

00:56:19.400 And you don't need to understand why we like going to wrestle or fight or fish or hunt.

00:56:24.620 Yeah.

00:56:24.720 You don't need to understand it.

00:56:26.040 Yeah.

00:56:26.260 Just honor it.

00:56:27.540 Yep.

00:56:28.120 That's right.

00:56:28.880 Yeah.

00:56:29.600 Yeah.

00:56:29.820 And in that honor culture, right?

00:56:34.160 There's not disrespect.

00:56:35.840 It's not-

00:56:36.140 We're not belittling the women.

00:56:37.460 Because they don't want to go out and ride motocross.

00:56:39.580 Some do.

00:56:40.620 Yeah.

00:56:40.980 Right?

00:56:41.380 We're not belittling them for that.

00:56:43.440 Right?

00:56:43.740 It's like you're different.

00:56:45.420 You're wired differently.

00:56:46.240 I respect that.

00:56:47.980 Right.

00:56:48.320 I respect who you are.

00:56:50.040 Okay?

00:56:50.340 And then same thing back women to the men is I respect who you are. 0.89

00:56:54.860 And the big test is if you come back from that outing, a better husband, she's going to dig 0.80

00:57:03.580 it.

00:57:04.080 Oh, she'll want you to-

00:57:05.780 She will kick you out of the house. 1.00

00:57:07.380 Exactly, guys.

00:57:08.180 This is a no-brainer, man.

00:57:10.600 Yeah.

00:57:10.900 Yeah, but if you come back drunk-

00:57:12.780 Yes. 0.99

00:57:13.140 Or the potential of stepping out on her or a jerk or more distant, of course she doesn't 0.99

00:57:18.760 want you to go hang out with the boys. 0.99

00:57:20.240 Totally.

00:57:20.680 Why would she want you to go do that? 0.93

00:57:22.100 Yeah, exactly.

00:57:23.080 Yeah.

00:57:23.400 You shall know them by their fruit.

00:57:25.000 Yeah.

00:57:25.380 Good point.

00:57:26.160 Yeah.

00:57:26.560 Yeah.

00:57:26.740 Yeah, I think about this idea of athleticism with my daughter.

00:57:30.120 You know, she never really had much desire to play sports or anything.

00:57:34.600 And so we just kept trying different things.

00:57:36.280 And then she got into dance, specifically ballroom dancing.

00:57:39.340 And she had a performance two, three months ago.

00:57:43.920 I was blown away.

00:57:45.640 I was like, I didn't realize you were this good.

00:57:47.520 And it is athletic, man.

00:57:48.800 Super athletic.

00:57:49.780 It's exhausting.

00:57:50.740 Yes.

00:57:51.180 And she had got up there and did her thing and she's tall for her age. 0.85

00:57:54.240 So she really stood out.

00:57:55.180 And I'm like, okay, like, so the traditional sports that I think of weren't her cup of

00:58:01.420 tea, but this is her arena. 0.97

00:58:04.240 That's beautiful.

00:58:04.680 It was pretty cool to see.

00:58:05.660 Yeah.

00:58:05.740 One of the guys on our team has a daughter who, you know, got into the Irish dance thing.

00:58:12.340 Oh, huh?

00:58:12.660 He's like, oh, great.

00:58:14.220 I know.

00:58:14.760 I know.

00:58:15.260 He's a climber.

00:58:16.260 He loves rock climbing.

00:58:17.000 He's like, come on, let's go climbing.

00:58:18.340 You know, and, but he saw delight in what she delights in.

00:58:25.140 Delight in what she delights in.

00:58:26.880 And so he invested a lot of money over the years.

00:58:29.760 Those little dance outfits are expensive. 0.84

00:58:31.140 Oh my gosh.

00:58:31.820 And travel and.

00:58:33.220 Travel and just time.

00:58:35.000 It's crazy.

00:58:35.040 I got to take her to practice tonight.

00:58:36.880 Yeah.

00:58:37.160 Right?

00:58:37.880 But she has flourished as a young woman.

00:58:41.780 So part of, part of the woman's journey is, you know, that one of the fundamental things

00:58:45.880 you're going to fight for the girls is shame.

00:58:48.380 Shame is just pernicious for women and a failure of confidence. 1.00

00:58:52.720 Right?

00:58:53.260 So it's the same kind of thing of you have what it takes.

00:58:55.820 You know, you put her in situations where she's going to succeed and not be shamed, where

00:59:00.880 she builds a self-confidence.

00:59:02.920 And this core idea is women bring life. 1.00

00:59:07.260 It's like literally.

00:59:08.700 Literally bear life.

00:59:10.080 Life.

00:59:10.580 Yes.

00:59:10.800 But you just think about like nurses, right?

00:59:14.940 And teachers.

00:59:16.380 Yeah.

00:59:17.300 They literally bring life to the world.

00:59:19.680 So what you're imbuing in her is you have power to bring life.

00:59:25.260 Where would you like to bring life?

00:59:27.220 You have power to bring life.

00:59:29.640 If she learns that lesson, I do.

00:59:32.640 I have power to bring life.

00:59:34.300 You do, sweetheart.

00:59:35.200 Now, where do you want to invest that?

00:59:36.520 Well, I want to go to grad school.

00:59:38.980 Awesome, hon.

00:59:39.660 Let's do it.

00:59:40.020 Let's figure out a plan.

00:59:41.000 Exactly.

00:59:41.600 Yeah.

00:59:43.420 If women bring life, what do men bring? 1.00

00:59:49.600 They, well, many things.

00:59:52.680 How do I answer that?

00:59:53.500 If women bring life, what do men bring? 1.00

00:59:55.360 Men bring protection and covering, right?

01:00:00.700 What do you mean by covering?

01:00:01.860 Oaks of righteousness.

01:00:02.820 Brokenness, Isaiah 61 talks about, because you and I both came out of brokenness background into healing, right?

01:00:11.800 Sure.

01:00:12.280 Well, that's Isaiah 61.

01:00:13.980 I will heal the brokenhearted.

01:00:15.280 I will set the captive free.

01:00:16.960 They will become oaks of righteousness.

01:00:20.380 So you, like, they're-

01:00:21.580 That's a great visual too.

01:00:22.820 Isn't it?

01:00:23.320 It is.

01:00:23.860 Well, and under that spreading oak tree, things can take refuge and flourish, right?

01:00:29.140 So he's got a small company.

01:00:31.600 The people in his company really flourish.

01:00:34.420 And maybe he intentionally hires single moms and he gives them a safe place, right?

01:00:40.060 To earn a living and to be protected and not be used by men, right? 0.87

01:00:44.540 It's that covering idea.

01:00:47.260 You know who comes to mind?

01:00:48.440 Do you know a gentleman by the name of Jason Wilson?

01:00:51.500 You should know Jason.

01:00:53.180 He's in Detroit.

01:00:54.340 He's an incredible human.

01:00:56.560 He just wrote a book called The Man the Moment Demands.

01:00:59.780 And he talks about the concept of being comprehensive.

01:01:03.340 And he is working with young men in Detroit that come from broken homes, a lot of single families, fathers, mothers in prison.

01:01:12.020 And he's tough on them.

01:01:15.200 It's funny when you're talking about letting your children find their path because I was, you said your youngest doesn't like to hunt?

01:01:21.840 Right.

01:01:22.200 My second doesn't.

01:01:23.620 Yeah.

01:01:23.900 And I invited him on this hunt.

01:01:25.100 This was a couple of years ago.

01:01:26.080 And I said, hey, do you want to hunt?

01:01:27.160 He's like, no.

01:01:28.120 And he said it just like that.

01:01:29.300 Yes.

01:01:29.740 Not like, oh, I'll think about it.

01:01:30.980 No, he's like, no, I don't want to do that.

01:01:33.020 I said, why?

01:01:34.780 And he gave me the best answer I've ever heard.

01:01:36.400 He said, I don't like to be cold.

01:01:39.020 I don't like to be tired.

01:01:40.520 And I don't like to be bored.

01:01:42.540 And I'm like, that's fair.

01:01:44.380 Like that is it.

01:01:45.000 Cause you are going to experience all three of those.

01:01:47.440 Lots of that.

01:01:47.960 And he started to get into sneakers, tennis shoes.

01:01:51.380 And I don't, I don't care about, but he loves them and he loves cars.

01:01:56.960 Yeah.

01:01:57.480 Two things I don't really care a whole lot about.

01:01:59.220 Yeah.

01:01:59.800 And he tells me about this model and that model and how this one is this, and this one has this engine.

01:02:07.000 And, um, we've had a rocky relationship in a lot of ways, but I see as I pour more interest into him and those things that I am personally not interested in, he opens up.

01:02:16.760 Yep.

01:02:16.900 And a couple of weeks ago, he came to me and he's like, dad, can I show you something?

01:02:20.840 Yeah, of course.

01:02:21.660 And he had this book and he opens it up and he's been drawing and I had no idea.

01:02:26.220 And he's amazing.

01:02:27.740 And I had no idea.

01:02:29.420 Wow.

01:02:29.540 But for him to open up that way, I think speaks to what you're saying.

01:02:33.020 When you pour into what their interests are, they become interested in the relationship.

01:02:37.860 Yeah.

01:02:38.360 Yeah.

01:02:38.600 That's really good.

01:02:39.760 Yeah.

01:02:40.360 Interesting.

01:02:41.320 I do want to go back to something you said on the, you were, I think you were talking about a scriptural reference in Isaiah, if I remember correctly.

01:02:49.860 And you were talking about every page, I'm paraphrasing, has been written for you.

01:02:54.760 Oh, Psalm 139.

01:02:56.000 A Psalm.

01:02:56.480 Yeah.

01:02:56.660 Okay.

01:02:56.840 Psalm 139, all the days of mine were written in your book, oh Lord, before one of them came to be.

01:03:03.660 Which is not meaning God micromanages your life, but it means you have a story.

01:03:09.380 Right.

01:03:10.040 You have a place, you have a purpose, a destiny, a calling, you have an identity.

01:03:16.300 And where guys really get off the rails is when someone in their life, influential, gives them identity that's not theirs.

01:03:24.460 Right? 1.00

01:03:24.940 Either through shame, violence, abuse, where it's like, you suck, you're nothing, you'll never be anything. 0.99

01:03:31.060 And that guy was actually supposed to end up, you know, being a president of a multinational corporation. 0.99

01:03:36.140 He just couldn't do it.

01:03:37.300 Right.

01:03:37.580 Because he was under so much shame, right?

01:03:39.960 Or when they reward him for the wrong things, you know, it's like, well, I don't care about your drawing.

01:03:44.980 I want you to come hunting.

01:03:46.020 Right.

01:03:46.320 Exactly.

01:03:46.800 Yeah.

01:03:47.120 Yeah.

01:03:47.420 Yeah.

01:03:47.620 Well, instead you affirm the drawing and you go, oh, maybe part of his destiny is in that, right?

01:03:52.900 Maybe he's an illustrator, a designer, right?

01:03:56.000 You go, that's good.

01:03:57.040 I'm going to affirm that.

01:03:58.400 That's part of God's plan for your life.

01:04:00.500 Right.

01:04:00.820 Yeah.

01:04:01.720 Well, how does that compare?

01:04:03.800 And another thing that you said, what you were talking about, I'm paraphrasing again, but that a man wants his agency.

01:04:11.640 He wants free will.

01:04:12.260 Yes.

01:04:12.440 He wants to be able to make decisions on his own, have that autonomy.

01:04:14.940 Yes.

01:04:15.260 And I know there's a debate whether or not in the concept and conversation of God, where everything has been written and is, and maybe even destiny, compared to free will.

01:04:28.280 Can you have free will if that exists?

01:04:30.660 Or do you see what I'm saying?

01:04:31.520 Yes.

01:04:32.000 I've had some deep thoughts about this personally, but I want to hear what you have to say about it.

01:04:37.100 Meaningful choices in a limited sphere.

01:04:40.960 Meaningful choices in a limited sphere.

01:04:42.840 You don't get to choose whether the sun comes up tomorrow.

01:04:44.980 Sure.

01:04:45.640 Okay.

01:04:46.320 Yeah.

01:04:47.000 But you choose a lot of your life.

01:04:49.460 Just look at obedience, disobedience, right?

01:04:51.820 You choose whether you're going to obey or not.

01:04:54.360 And you pay the consequences for that.

01:04:56.240 So we make absolutely, Pascal called it the dignity of causation.

01:05:01.300 Okay.

01:05:01.800 God gives every man the dignity of choices that matter.

01:05:05.340 You get to cause things to happen, good and bad.

01:05:08.340 And you have to live with whatever the consequences of those decisions are.

01:05:12.060 Exactly.

01:05:12.840 Yeah.

01:05:13.040 That's part of that training of the boy in the woods, right?

01:05:15.700 There's a way things work.

01:05:16.920 Sure.

01:05:17.460 You know, if you choose right, you're going to flourish.

01:05:19.620 You choose wrong, you're going to get hurt or maybe hurt others.

01:05:23.040 Yeah.

01:05:23.440 I thought about this concept of consequences because I think, you know, when we see our

01:05:27.940 children, your children sounds like, oh, everybody's out of the house.

01:05:31.300 My children, I've still got four at home.

01:05:33.240 Yep.

01:05:33.960 And I don't like to see my kids suffer.

01:05:37.180 I don't think there's very many people who enjoy that.

01:05:40.480 And so we oftentimes will rob our children of consequences.

01:05:45.480 And I use rob deliberately because if they don't get to experience the hardship of bad

01:05:51.020 decisions, they'll just keep making bad decisions because there's no consequence.

01:05:55.420 There's no reason not to.

01:05:57.400 Yes.

01:05:57.920 This is the most difficult lesson of parenting because for two reasons.

01:06:02.980 One, because usually their pain is much more painful than your pain.

01:06:06.920 You're like, I'll take it.

01:06:08.520 I'll take it.

01:06:09.300 But to watch your child suffer is horrible.

01:06:12.540 Whether it's rejection or failure or loneliness or, you know, school and maybe a learning disability

01:06:17.720 is horrible, right?

01:06:19.160 You have more angst than they do over it.

01:06:22.440 We also have more reference on, you know, your first broken relationship.

01:06:27.700 I mean, yeah.

01:06:29.720 Okay.

01:06:30.040 Like not even a big deal.

01:06:31.580 But when you're 15, that's a big deal.

01:06:34.100 It's a big deal.

01:06:35.000 Yeah.

01:06:35.260 And we have to treat it like it is for their sake, right?

01:06:39.380 We help them with it.

01:06:41.820 But we also have to be honest about this.

01:06:44.360 The other reason we want to spare our children hard lessons is because we don't want the hassle.

01:06:51.420 Personally.

01:06:52.120 Yeah.

01:06:52.520 Yeah.

01:06:53.200 Right?

01:06:53.740 Yeah.

01:06:54.060 I mean, he gets detention at school.

01:06:56.100 That's a hassle for you, right?

01:06:58.600 Or whatever it is, right?

01:06:59.940 Yeah.

01:07:00.400 He gets fired from another job at the burger place.

01:07:03.360 That's a hassle for you.

01:07:04.520 You're like, oh, man, I thought we had something rolling here.

01:07:07.560 Yeah.

01:07:08.100 I thought things were gone.

01:07:09.600 So we just need to be honest that a lot of that has to do with our own personal comfort.

01:07:14.020 Yeah.

01:07:15.440 Yeah.

01:07:15.800 How does a man become acquainted with some of what we've been talking about, specifically in the realm of the spiritual experiences that you say, you know, we're craving, we desire.

01:07:31.140 Yeah.

01:07:31.260 Like, how does a man, especially those who are very pragmatic.

01:07:34.540 And I tend to be one of those types.

01:07:36.760 Yeah.

01:07:37.080 Where it's like, well, show me.

01:07:38.660 Like, prove to me that that's the way or that's what is.

01:07:43.200 And I'll do it.

01:07:44.040 Yeah.

01:07:44.460 I will do it.

01:07:45.400 Yeah.

01:07:45.600 But I want to know.

01:07:46.500 I want to know first.

01:07:47.780 Yes.

01:07:48.100 What can we do on a practical level?

01:07:49.800 Let me first describe the moment that we're living in.

01:07:54.440 So we've just come through the ashes of the enlightenment and like 400 years of just the worship of the left brain.

01:08:01.780 And it's all critical reason.

01:08:03.960 And if you can't explain it through critical reasoning and the latest science.

01:08:07.840 It doesn't exist.

01:08:08.580 It doesn't exist. 1.00

01:08:09.500 Or shoot it. 0.96

01:08:10.340 You know, we just shut it down. 1.00

01:08:11.580 We just kill it. 1.00

01:08:13.440 But that has left you. 1.00

01:08:15.620 You have a right brain.

01:08:16.860 That's like half a human being.

01:08:18.960 You are critical reasoning.

01:08:20.480 You are not only critical reasoning.

01:08:22.800 Okay.

01:08:23.200 Or why do you like to be outside?

01:08:25.600 It doesn't fit with critical reasoning.

01:08:27.640 That's true.

01:08:28.360 Because there's no good reason to be out there when I can be in here.

01:08:31.360 Climate control.

01:08:32.360 Yes.

01:08:33.020 Tired?

01:08:33.640 Yes.

01:08:34.240 Okay.

01:08:34.620 Good point.

01:08:35.040 Because there's other parts of you that need to come alive.

01:08:38.240 Okay.

01:08:38.740 So let's just start with let the other parts of you show up.

01:08:43.460 This is really important for men.

01:08:45.940 You have a poetic side.

01:08:47.860 Warrior Poet.

01:08:49.120 You do.

01:08:49.920 There are things.

01:08:50.620 There are songs from high school that make you cry when you're driving.

01:08:54.240 Oh, come on, man.

01:08:55.280 Even running down the road today.

01:08:56.760 So I listen to some hair metal mostly when I'm running.

01:08:59.540 Yeah.

01:08:59.920 And I'm like singing as I'm running.

01:09:02.720 Yeah.

01:09:02.900 And I'm like, this is not me at all.

01:09:04.240 And I'm doing it.

01:09:05.100 There it is.

01:09:05.520 Yeah.

01:09:05.780 Okay.

01:09:06.260 Yeah.

01:09:06.520 That's the rest of you.

01:09:08.000 Let the rest of you show up, guys.

01:09:10.000 You're not just critical reasoning.

01:09:13.260 And you're a profoundly spiritual being.

01:09:15.920 You were made that way by a profoundly spiritual being.

01:09:19.400 Okay.

01:09:19.600 So you've got to begin to open up.

01:09:22.420 How might God be relating to me right now?

01:09:25.960 How might he be talking to me?

01:09:28.540 Okay.

01:09:28.960 He's going to talk to you through wise men and women.

01:09:32.000 He's going to talk to you through good podcasts.

01:09:34.660 Right.

01:09:35.380 But he's also going to talk to you.

01:09:37.680 He's going to whisper to you through transcendent moments.

01:09:43.760 Okay.

01:09:44.060 So the cup of coffee in the morning, you're looking out the window, the snow softly falling,

01:09:47.680 and you're like, holy smokes, man.

01:09:49.380 That's really beautiful.

01:09:50.420 That's nice.

01:09:50.700 Yeah.

01:09:51.340 God's in that.

01:09:52.480 He's like, yeah, you like that?

01:09:54.140 I made that.

01:09:55.880 Right?

01:09:56.340 Yeah.

01:09:56.740 Yeah, yeah.

01:09:57.140 So you just start, begin to open up to something that's beyond critical reasoning that I would

01:10:02.060 just call a little bit of the transcendent, right?

01:10:04.860 A little bit of the spiritual.

01:10:06.380 And then you should go try church, guys.

01:10:08.720 You should go check it out and see.

01:10:10.840 Now, some people like the rock and roll.

01:10:13.660 Some people like the Eastern, you know, traditional Orthodox thing, liturgy, right?

01:10:19.020 You have to find the language.

01:10:21.860 God is going to speak to you in your native language.

01:10:24.820 He will speak to you in the tongue that your soul gets.

01:10:29.580 Okay?

01:10:29.940 So he's not going to shove you into a church experience that you're like, this is killing

01:10:33.800 me.

01:10:34.660 Well, then you got to go try something else.

01:10:37.200 That's interesting because most people will say, this is the only church that you should

01:10:41.400 ever go to.

01:10:42.220 I know.

01:10:42.880 And that.

01:10:43.300 I know.

01:10:43.720 And I would say within Christendom.

01:10:45.660 Sure.

01:10:46.320 Right.

01:10:46.620 I would say.

01:10:47.100 What did you say?

01:10:47.780 A few choices in parameters.

01:10:50.600 Meaningful choices in a limited sphere.

01:10:52.380 Yes.

01:10:52.880 Yes.

01:10:53.260 There you go.

01:10:53.720 There you go.

01:10:54.780 Yeah.

01:10:54.960 That's a good catch.

01:10:56.020 Right.

01:10:56.500 I like that.

01:10:57.120 Same thing's true with our spirituality.

01:10:59.120 Meaningful choices in a limited sphere.

01:11:01.720 Right.

01:11:02.160 Don't go eat ayahuasca, you know, and try and do transcendent things.

01:11:07.620 You will have a spiritual experience.

01:11:09.580 I guarantee you what you invite in is a whole pack of demons.

01:11:12.180 Stay within the protective Christendom that, you know, the family of God.

01:11:20.300 And then listen to a few Bible podcasts.

01:11:24.960 Listen to some interesting teachers.

01:11:26.960 Right.

01:11:27.200 The guys out of Portland that have something called the Bible Project.

01:11:30.680 Their podcast is killer.

01:11:32.400 Is it?

01:11:32.900 Okay.

01:11:33.200 Oh, it's fascinating.

01:11:34.640 The Bible Project? 0.92

01:11:35.480 Yeah.

01:11:35.800 Okay.

01:11:36.000 And they're super interesting to listen to.

01:11:38.000 That's what we want.

01:11:38.700 Like, I don't, I can read the scriptures.

01:11:40.880 I want to know about the stories and the lessons and the experiences.

01:11:44.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:11:45.000 Exactly.

01:11:45.540 Start there.

01:11:46.280 Try that.

01:11:46.900 Yeah.

01:11:47.640 Yeah.

01:11:48.180 Well, good.

01:11:48.560 Well, we're going to link people up to your work.

01:11:50.680 You've got a new book.

01:11:51.500 I do.

01:11:52.100 And so talk to me about the book and let the guys know where to go because it's out right

01:11:56.160 now.

01:11:56.520 Yeah.

01:11:56.660 And a lot of what we talked about is woven throughout the book.

01:12:00.880 Yes, it is.

01:12:01.840 Yeah.

01:12:02.180 So the book is called Experience Jesus, period.

01:12:05.300 Really.

01:12:06.260 Period.

01:12:07.020 Because the big bait and switch offer was, hey, if you come to our church, that kind 1.00

01:12:10.380 of thing, you're going to really find God.

01:12:11.720 And people are like, I never found him there.

01:12:13.440 I just got a lot of guilt and shame.

01:12:15.360 You know, you're meant to experience God deeply.

01:12:19.280 And so this is like from a spiritual mentor guiding you through, hey, let me just describe

01:12:25.060 what the internet does to you.

01:12:27.200 You want to detox a little bit from that.

01:12:29.560 Okay.

01:12:29.980 Let me describe how God comes to you and speaks to you.

01:12:34.000 Let's walk a little bit in that direction together.

01:12:36.260 So yeah, the book is called Experience Jesus, Really.

01:12:39.260 Well, we'll sync it up.

01:12:40.220 You talk about some other concepts that we just didn't get the chance to talk about, which

01:12:43.860 is the distraction age that we live in.

01:12:47.200 I can actually feel my phone vibrating at me right now.

01:12:50.180 Doggone it.

01:12:50.700 I know.

01:12:51.100 I should have turned it off and put it over there.

01:12:52.760 I know.

01:12:53.400 I've done pretty well at limiting distractions to the degree that I can, but we're highly

01:12:57.760 distracted.

01:12:58.700 Yeah.

01:12:58.880 And you talk about the concept of the ordinary mystic, I believe, as well.

01:13:03.040 Yes.

01:13:03.400 So there's some interesting concepts that are new to me that I've enjoyed learning more

01:13:07.840 about.

01:13:08.220 Great.

01:13:08.700 Yeah.

01:13:09.000 That's letting, like, you just tell the left brain, just put the gun down for a minute

01:13:13.680 and let the right brain part of you out.

01:13:17.740 Yeah.

01:13:18.040 The part of you that's singing while you're running.

01:13:20.400 I was getting, like, chills.

01:13:21.780 Like, this is so weird.

01:13:23.400 This is not me.

01:13:24.420 It's the rest of you.

01:13:25.600 Yeah.

01:13:26.180 Right?

01:13:26.860 Yeah.

01:13:27.100 And you want to be a wholehearted person.

01:13:29.160 Yeah.

01:13:29.340 So that's the idea of being ordinary mystics is we're letting a little bit of the transcendent

01:13:33.420 in.

01:13:34.300 Right?

01:13:34.760 When I'm in the woods, I realize, oh, my gosh, you are so here.

01:13:39.020 You are so here.

01:13:40.300 You are wild.

01:13:41.720 And you are good.

01:13:43.780 Right?

01:13:44.220 You're letting that in.

01:13:45.980 Yeah.

01:13:46.400 Yeah.

01:13:47.220 Well, good.

01:13:48.020 Well, this has been a real privilege to be here and talk with you.

01:13:50.420 Yeah, it's been a joy.

01:13:51.040 I appreciate all your insights.

01:13:52.700 Obviously, as I started the conversation, your work has been instrumental in my life.

01:13:57.100 So I'm very grateful and, in turn, instrumental in the lives of other millions of men who

01:14:02.400 have listened vicariously to your message through some of what I've been able to share.

01:14:06.700 Yeah.

01:14:07.160 Yeah.

01:14:07.560 So as spiritual father, let me say, well done.

01:14:11.600 Thank you.

01:14:12.280 Well done, Ryan.

01:14:13.300 You're helping people.

01:14:14.420 You're offering your strength on behalf of others.

01:14:16.540 That's good stuff.

01:14:17.340 I appreciate it.

01:14:18.140 It means a lot.

01:14:19.360 Awesome.

01:14:19.720 Thank you.

01:14:20.060 Yep.

01:14:22.420 Man, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.

01:14:24.380 I know that was a little bit different, a lot bit different from

01:14:26.860 the other podcasts that we've done, but I found that the most interesting conversations,

01:14:32.600 the ones where I don't necessarily see eye to eye on every aspect of it are the ones that

01:14:37.360 we need to be having.

01:14:38.520 I don't want to continue to have all the conversations with everybody that I agree with on everything.

01:14:44.260 The real purpose of what we do here with Order of Man is to equip us with new information

01:14:48.520 and new ideas and new insights.

01:14:50.020 And so not all of this may have resonated with you, but I hope you're taking some of

01:14:54.900 it away and that it will apply in your life and will help you become a better man and better

01:15:00.480 serve the people in your life.

01:15:02.920 Make sure to check out a copy of John's book.

01:15:06.120 Again, it's called Experience Jesus Really.

01:15:08.760 Great book.

01:15:09.340 I've read it and I can attest to that.

01:15:11.080 And then also make sure that you check out our Iron Council.

01:15:14.760 We're open.

01:15:15.600 I shared with you a couple of testimonials and what we do, but really this is an opportunity

01:15:19.920 to you to stand shoulder to shoulder with other driven men and make yourself into the

01:15:24.680 type of man and leader that you have a desire to be.

01:15:27.240 You can check that out at orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

01:15:31.840 All right, guys, those are your marching orders.

01:15:34.460 We will be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

01:15:36.400 Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

01:15:42.840 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:15:45.800 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

01:15:49.820 we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - March 18, 2025

JOHN ELDREDGE ｜ How a Man Can Truly Experience Jesus

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