Order of Man - JOHN KIM ｜ How a Man Leads in Relationships

00:00:00.000 Around this time of year, people begin to evaluate their life choices and circumstances.

00:00:06.440 Relationships, guys, are no different.

00:00:08.240 It's a great time to reflect on what is working well, what isn't, and maybe even what is no

00:00:14.960 longer worth pursuing.

00:00:16.720 In fact, many people find themselves in breakups, separation, and divorce on the tail end of

00:00:22.640 the holidays.

00:00:23.600 My guest today, licensed therapist John Kim, joins me to talk about the different types

00:00:28.040 of breakups and breakdowns that occur in romantic relationships, but we also talk about common

00:00:33.980 themes you see in ending relationships and how to avoid them, the differences between

00:00:39.400 healthy and unhealthy love, how what John calls ruptures in a relationship can lead to some

00:00:46.320 of the biggest relational breakthroughs, how to communicate what you need without coming

00:00:51.060 across needy, obnoxious, or overbearing, and so much more.

00:00:55.800 You're a man of action.

00:00:56.780 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:01:01.580 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:06.000 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:11.060 This is your life.

00:01:12.180 This is who you are.

00:01:13.600 This is who you will become.

00:01:15.320 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:22.980 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:25.400 This will be the very last podcast for 2024.

00:01:29.920 If you are like me, you also believe that this year went by way too quickly.

00:01:35.500 I cannot believe how fast it went.

00:01:37.780 A lot of good things, a lot of ups and downs, new relationship for me personally, growth in

00:01:43.160 the business, connecting with my kids, watching them grow, seeing one of my kids turn 16, so

00:01:49.540 he's driving now, and dance recitals, and basketball games, and all the things that come with kids,

00:01:55.500 and of course, the growth of our Brotherhood, the Iron Council, which is actually open for

00:02:00.180 enrollment as we speak right now.

00:02:02.680 So if you're interested in that, make sure you check that out.

00:02:04.740 I'll talk a little bit more about that later in the podcast.

00:02:08.500 For now, I just want to welcome you here, whether you're new or this is the 1500th episode that you've

00:02:15.220 listened to.

00:02:16.040 I do want to give you just a quick recap on four interviews that I did this year that have seemed

00:02:22.340 to have done really well, resonated with you guys, and if you're looking for more content and haven't

00:02:26.760 gone through our vast library of episodes, I would check out these four.

00:02:31.640 Number one, Jefferson Fisher, that one's called How to Communicate Like a Man.

00:02:36.020 The next one that did really well was Sathya Sam, How Porn Destroys Masculinity.

00:02:41.320 Next is Victor Marks, The Burden and Blessing of Masculinity, and Mark Driscoll, Act Like a Man.

00:02:48.240 Now, we did 52, because we do one interview every week.

00:02:52.500 We did 52, or 50, yeah, I guess it's 52 as of today, episodes this year.

00:02:59.460 Those are four of 52, so go back.

00:03:02.340 There's a lot of information to listen to, to consume, and then hopefully, ideally, to apply.

00:03:08.680 Speaking of masculinity and being a man, I want to just mention before we get into the show

00:03:13.120 that our show sponsors are over at Montana Knife Company.

00:03:17.620 I say speaking of being a man, because every man needs a good knife.

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00:03:36.360 you're walking around to keep yourself not only safe, but it's a great utility as well

00:03:40.900 to have a knife.

00:03:42.260 In fact, one of the greatest compliments I ever received, I was at a football game, and

00:03:47.180 another dad asked, hey, Ryan, do you have a knife?

00:03:50.220 And I had a knife, and he said, I asked you because I knew you would.

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00:04:18.200 All right, let me introduce you to my guest.

00:04:20.140 His name is John Kim.

00:04:21.480 He is a licensed therapist.

00:04:23.480 He is a repeat guest as well, because I and you listening appreciate his unique and interesting

00:04:29.580 perspectives into romantic relationships.

00:04:32.820 John goes by The Angry Therapist on the socials and is the host of the popular podcast, The

00:04:38.920 Angry Therapist Podcast.

00:04:40.740 He's also the author of I Used to Be a Miserable F, the F word.

00:04:45.420 I'm trying not to swear, so I'm going to stick to that.

00:04:48.240 Another one, Single on Purpose, and also his latest book, Breakup on Purpose, A Catalyst

00:04:55.020 for Growth.

00:04:56.440 John has been documenting his post-divorce journey and helping thousands of people all

00:05:01.980 over the world navigate their own relationship challenges and struggles through his writing,

00:05:07.340 his books, his podcast, and through his events.

00:05:10.480 John, let's talk about breakups.

00:05:14.640 I know that this is not a conversation a lot of men want to have or discuss or think about,

00:05:21.520 but it's the reality.

00:05:22.580 So I think this is going to be a very powerful conversation today.

00:05:25.760 Yes.

00:05:26.040 Thank you for having me.

00:05:27.100 And first, let's talk about how you can rock a hat and a beard.

00:05:32.500 And in growing up, I always wanted to do that and I couldn't do, I can't grow facial hair

00:05:37.120 and I look horrible in hats, but you got the, you got the combo going.

00:05:40.340 It reminds me of college and all the, all the good looking dudes that I tried to emulate,

00:05:44.960 but could it?

00:05:47.000 Well, you know, we have to embrace who we are.

00:05:49.220 You're Asian.

00:05:50.160 Facial hair is not a thing for you.

00:05:51.600 I get it.

00:05:52.160 No.

00:05:52.480 The hat.

00:05:52.940 I've seen a lot of Asian guys pull off the hat and look good.

00:05:55.280 So that's on you, brother.

00:05:56.220 Yeah.

00:05:56.520 That's on, I just can't, I don't know.

00:05:57.580 I just can't do the hat, but yeah, I could grow one long hair and I could just wrap it

00:06:01.200 around my, you know, but that's not the same anyway.

00:06:04.120 It's the equivalent of the comb over, you know, the 70 year old comb over.

00:06:08.240 I could do a comb over beard.

00:06:09.460 Yes.

00:06:10.100 Yes.

00:06:11.900 But yeah, let's talk about breakups.

00:06:13.220 It's good to see you again.

00:06:13.800 Good to see you too.

00:06:14.440 It's been a while.

00:06:14.960 Yeah, let's do it.

00:06:15.960 It's really interesting when I heard from your team and heard from you about coming on the

00:06:20.880 podcast again, of course I said yes immediately.

00:06:22.980 Uh, but I was intrigued about the title of the book breakup on purpose.

00:06:28.960 And as I went through the book and know a little bit about your, your situation and your

00:06:34.060 message to me, what I hear is being, having intent, being deliberate about the relationships

00:06:41.040 that not only you're in, but the relationships that you're not in.

00:06:44.760 Yes.

00:06:45.420 Yes.

00:06:45.840 Uh, intention is, is, is the on purpose, um, doing things with intention.

00:06:50.960 Um, and also, uh, you know, when it comes to breakups, no one talks about all the different

00:06:55.860 types of breakups.

00:06:56.740 We kind of throw a blanket prescription for breakups and, you know, a divorce, you know,

00:07:01.980 for example, is very different than say, uh, what I call a flat soda breakup or a mutual

00:07:06.600 uncoupling.

00:07:07.880 And, uh, and, and those are different than say a blindsided breakup, you know, or that's

00:07:11.320 different than a breakup where someone cheated on you.

00:07:12.880 Like there's so many different types of breakups.

00:07:15.040 Um, no one's really talked about, uh, different types of breakups.

00:07:18.200 We just see breakups as, as one, one experience.

00:07:21.520 And that's not true.

00:07:22.220 You know, how much, and I agree with what you're saying, but how much does a man's response

00:07:28.480 to a breakup change based on the circumstances?

00:07:31.160 I know a divorce is different than a fling, you know, a fling lasts for a couple of months,

00:07:37.480 a divorce, you know, a marriage might potentially last for five, 10, 15, 20 years.

00:07:41.460 So clearly there's more of a, a vesting, there's financial division, but from an emotional

00:07:48.500 perspective, is there a real difference from breakup to breakup?

00:07:52.080 I think it depends on the, uh, the relationship, the intensity.

00:07:55.680 I think it depends on, um, um, you know, if it was, if it was young love or unhealthy love

00:08:01.760 versus healthy love, uh, there, there are so many factors.

00:08:05.080 Um, I know for me, uh, this whole thing started, my whole journey started with divorce.

00:08:10.200 So my whole journey started, my first domino was a breakup.

00:08:14.080 And, um, because in the relationship, I put her on a pedestal and I had no life.

00:08:19.800 I thought that, uh, uh, especially guy friends were extra travel was extra.

00:08:24.580 I, you know, it's, it's, it's just me and my wife and I don't care about anything else.

00:08:29.220 And so after the divorce, man, I had nothing.

00:08:32.900 So it forced me to, uh, start all over and build from scratch, uh, which at the time was

00:08:39.720 a painful, discouraging, extremely difficult.

00:08:42.360 But now looking back, uh, what a blessing because it, it, it allowed me to actually build

00:08:47.720 a life, um, you know, with my hands for myself.

00:08:51.300 Yeah.

00:08:51.840 Yeah.

00:08:52.320 Yeah.

00:08:52.640 And I think that's a, I mean, every single man on the planet is going to go through a breakup

00:08:56.680 at some point.

00:08:57.380 Yeah, of course, this is an inevitable part of life.

00:09:00.300 You know, whether it's that first girlfriend you had when you were a freshman in high school

00:09:05.620 to the, you know, 60 year old man who found himself in the midst of a divorce and being

00:09:10.220 blindsided potentially by it.

00:09:11.820 There's so many different ways.

00:09:13.760 You did say something interesting though.

00:09:15.880 You said it's a difference.

00:09:17.960 At least one of the factors is difference between healthy and unhealthy love.

00:09:22.820 What, what is unhealthy love?

00:09:25.440 What does that look like?

00:09:26.620 Oh, it could, it could look, um, like, um, like a lot of things, but, um, spaces that

00:09:32.300 are not safe.

00:09:33.240 Uh, so people who are reactive, unhealthy love is, um, toxic love.

00:09:37.740 It's, uh, um, people who are not loving with each other, but at each other or around each

00:09:43.540 other.

00:09:44.080 Unhealthy love is, um, two people loving each other without looking inward, without expanding

00:09:51.040 and growing.

00:09:51.580 Um, you know, it's a lot of young love.

00:09:54.220 I mean, when I was in my twenties, love was just how I felt.

00:09:57.340 And then, um, fights were reactive, you know, chairs were thrown, uh, characters were assassinated,

00:10:03.940 all of these things.

00:10:05.100 Um, and it wasn't until I learned like, oh, uh, love isn't just about how we feel.

00:10:10.040 Um, but there's a responsibility to love and love can be healthy and unhealthy.

00:10:14.120 And holy shit, my parents, they were, they were unhealthy.

00:10:17.460 And then you start putting, you know, connecting dots and you're like, oh, wow.

00:10:21.660 Relationships aren't just about feelings.

00:10:23.280 They're actually built.

00:10:24.860 Um, they're about a lot more, you know?

00:10:28.120 Well, and I, I also think as I get older and have experienced love and in a lot of different

00:10:32.880 ways, it's a lot of it is actually a decision.

00:10:35.640 Sure.

00:10:36.000 It's a feeling.

00:10:36.760 Yes.

00:10:37.200 Of course it's chemicals and it's our human hardwiring to be attracted to certain people

00:10:44.520 and to embrace them and fall in love with them emotionally.

00:10:47.680 But also, you know, it's hard when you have two people with conflicting ideas and stubbornness

00:10:56.060 and ego and their own dreams and vision.

00:10:58.900 And then you're saying we have to do this together.

00:11:01.360 I think in a lot of ways, deciding is just as important as feeling love.

00:11:07.160 Yes.

00:11:07.760 Uh, Keanu Reeves once said there's a difference between falling in love and building a relationship.

00:11:12.380 Um, I didn't know there was a difference in my twenties.

00:11:14.520 Now at 51, uh, there definitely is a difference, uh, falling in love.

00:11:18.720 Like you said, is, uh, chemicals and dopamine, lots of fantasy and filling in blanks, tracing

00:11:23.100 posters, building a relationship.

00:11:25.160 That's a whole different animal that is, um, working through activation that comes up because

00:11:30.980 of our stories.

00:11:31.760 Um, you know, nothing's going to challenge you more or hold up a mirror, uh, more than

00:11:37.240 your, your, your relationship.

00:11:38.600 And then also if you have a child, children do that as well.

00:11:42.800 Yeah.

00:11:43.320 Yeah.

00:11:43.680 Yeah.

00:11:44.040 So they expose women and children expose all of the weaknesses and vulnerabilities in you

00:11:50.080 as a man.

00:11:50.700 Yeah.

00:11:50.900 And I think with children, it's easier because like my child could stab me in the eye with

00:11:55.100 a pen and I'm going to forgive my daughter like pretty fast.

00:11:59.140 You know, uh, my wife does that to me.

00:12:01.080 Shit's going to go down.

00:12:02.240 Like we were going to have to talk about a few things, you know?

00:12:04.600 And so, um, yeah, with our children, I do think it's a little easier in that.

00:12:08.140 Um, we're so much, uh, we're able to be so much more compassionate, empathetic, forgiving.

00:12:13.520 When it comes to our partners, uh, we definitely, um, struggle more, you know, pulling on the

00:12:18.060 tug of war rope and pointing fingers and all that for sure.

00:12:21.040 I mean, I think intuitively I might understand why that is, but I mean, you, in most cases

00:12:29.440 you've been with your child.

00:12:30.700 That's not true.

00:12:31.980 What, what, what's the difference?

00:12:33.340 Why don't we have the same sort of unconditional love?

00:12:35.740 I think, I think we don't, as we do with our children.

00:12:39.080 Well, because with our partner, we expect more.

00:12:40.960 Um, I think with our partners, um, because they are, uh, someone that we chose, not someone

00:12:46.420 that we made, we made, I mean, I guess, I guess you could adopt a child.

00:12:49.360 It's not someone you made, but there's something about a child that is, um, it's a different

00:12:53.460 kind of love, man.

00:12:54.600 The, uh, the, the love from a child for a child is, is, is really unconditional.

00:12:59.240 Um, and I know there's toxic parents and I know there's abusive parents and all that,

00:13:02.700 but, um, it's instinctual.

00:13:04.720 It's, uh, it's forgiving.

00:13:06.680 It's unconditional.

00:13:07.840 Um, when it comes to our partner, um, there's ego, there's history, there's, you know, all

00:13:13.340 these things that come up that, uh, that don't with, with our children.

00:13:17.680 Yeah, man, that's tough.

00:13:19.500 Well, and then I think there's also, uh, the threat that always looms over relationship,

00:13:26.320 whether you acknowledge it or not, whether it's there or not to varying degrees that this

00:13:31.760 thing could potentially end like that.

00:13:34.720 It's fragile in a lot of ways.

00:13:36.380 Yeah.

00:13:36.680 And then if you grew up with a lot of abandonment wounds, um, or fears of intimacy or all, all

00:13:42.380 these, you know, all the quote unquote baggage or issues as they call it, um, relationships

00:13:46.340 can be very activating.

00:13:48.040 Um, how someone loves you, um, can, can, can trigger you because it's not the way that,

00:13:54.380 um, maybe you want to be loved or the way that you define love.

00:13:57.500 So, uh, relationships are hard, man.

00:14:00.820 I mean, everyone knows this.

00:14:01.740 No doubt.

00:14:02.320 Yeah.

00:14:03.040 Are we, are you, are you, uh, married in a relationship?

00:14:06.460 I was married for 18 years.

00:14:08.140 I went through a divorce a couple of years ago, uh, and I've been in a relationship now

00:14:12.820 for about a year.

00:14:14.280 So, you know, it's a lot to go through in a couple of years to see all the dynamics.

00:14:19.820 And I'm a realist, you know, I, I admittedly, I'm a bit of a romantic as well, but I'm also

00:14:26.500 a realist.

00:14:27.340 You know, I see the, the love story, Disney side of things.

00:14:31.880 And I also see the reality of life and hardship and two competing ideas and desires.

00:14:38.140 So it's, it's an interesting thing to experience.

00:14:41.020 Wait a minute.

00:14:41.400 If, um, if you were in a marriage for 18 years, wow, that, I feel like that's, that

00:14:46.440 was, uh, pretty much your entire love.

00:14:48.640 I mean, you look, you look fairly young, so that was probably like half of your adult

00:14:52.440 life.

00:14:52.920 Yeah.

00:14:53.560 And then I was, I think I was 20, I was 23 when I got married.

00:14:57.340 Oh yeah.

00:14:58.000 I mean, that's like college.

00:15:00.020 Um, and then you got divorced, uh, going through a rebirth and then now in a, in a one year,

00:15:06.220 uh, relationship.

00:15:07.760 So this is all still kind of fresh.

00:15:09.740 I mean, it's only been what, two to three years, three years.

00:15:12.760 Yeah.

00:15:13.060 Yeah.

00:15:13.620 Yeah.

00:15:13.880 A couple of years.

00:15:14.920 Um, yeah, it is pretty fresh and it's exciting.

00:15:18.640 And interesting and scary and yeah, all the things, you know, and I try to take it for

00:15:24.660 what it's worth and yeah, that's it.

00:15:28.360 I'm, I'm here for the ride, you know, how are you not to have expectations?

00:15:31.920 How are you, um, healing through, through, um, your breakup?

00:15:35.060 How are you, how are you able to, uh, or how have you been able to turn your breakup into

00:15:38.880 a breakthrough?

00:15:39.700 Your divorce?

00:15:40.680 Well, part of it is just as again, to say what I said before is I'm a realist, you know,

00:15:45.980 and, uh, the other part of it is that I acknowledge and own my deficiencies, but I also acknowledge

00:15:54.040 a person's autonomy to make their own choices.

00:15:58.880 You know, I don't, I used to have questions about why, like why?

00:16:03.240 And, and I've just come to the consensus that some questions will just never be answered

00:16:10.040 and I can either stew and dwell on it or I can just accept what I can control and move

00:16:17.500 forward.

00:16:18.080 And I feel like I've done that somewhat successfully.

00:16:21.720 You know, those things come up still and of course they will, it's part of life, but

00:16:24.740 I feel good about where I am now.

00:16:27.280 Nice.

00:16:27.780 Um, you know, after my divorce, uh, I, I had nothing, I had no friends, I was broke.

00:16:32.140 I was just kind of a therapist in training and I tell myself, I found, I found myself

00:16:36.420 through, um, barbells, motorcycles, and donuts.

00:16:39.180 And what I mean by that, and I say that, I say that on purpose because I, I, uh, especially

00:16:43.900 for men, you know, um, self-help doesn't have to look like going to Bali or, you know, wearing

00:16:49.180 beads or, you know, um, therapy every day.

00:16:52.480 Um, I bought a Harley because, uh, most of my life, everyone I've dated and, and of

00:16:58.980 course my parents said no.

00:17:00.440 And so with my Harley connected to a part of me that I disconnected with, um, I found

00:17:05.540 fitness and CrossFit and, uh, gave me community and a place where I could be social, took me

00:17:10.920 out of my house and out of my head.

00:17:12.260 And then the, the donut thing was just, um, um, giving myself a treat, allowing myself

00:17:17.060 to have things like a donut.

00:17:18.860 I took myself out to dinner.

00:17:20.360 Um, and so all, a lot of me, uh, going through a rebirth, um, was very street level.

00:17:26.820 It wasn't anything fancy.

00:17:30.400 I, I think that's interesting cause you and I, I think a lot of ways we agree, but our

00:17:35.920 personalities are so different.

00:17:37.300 I, I went more of the disciplined route than I think you did based on what I'm hearing

00:17:43.140 you say, you know, like I let loose, I, I got a motorcycle, I treated myself.

00:17:47.880 I was like, that's cool.

00:17:48.780 I'm not, I'm not saying that's wrong.

00:17:50.440 Yeah.

00:17:50.780 What was your discipline for me?

00:17:52.140 Did you like, uh, well, you were disciplined with CrossFit.

00:17:54.480 I will say that you still look great, by the way, I was going to tell you, in fact, I was

00:17:58.740 watching some videos over the past couple of weeks and I'm like, man, he's looking better

00:18:02.980 than he was before.

00:18:03.820 So whatever you're doing seems to be working well physique wise.

00:18:06.560 I wanted to tell you that.

00:18:07.420 Thank you.

00:18:07.600 I appreciate it.

00:18:08.140 Um, yeah, I went back to the gym, you know, and, and even now, like when I struggle with

00:18:15.600 life, not just the romantic side of life, but just life in general, I find a lot of,

00:18:20.820 uh, therapy through being disciplined through the gym.

00:18:24.680 Um, I've locked in my, my nutrition and my diet.

00:18:29.020 Yeah.

00:18:29.240 That's where, that's where I, some of the systems, that's where I'm jealous, man.

00:18:32.200 That's a, uh, so, so, so, cause my thing with discipline is of course it could be a superpower,

00:18:37.100 but, um, some people can use discipline structure in a way that's so rigid that if they, you know,

00:18:45.200 have a treat or miss a leg day or whatever, um, they internalize and they start, you know,

00:18:50.380 calling themselves a piece of shit or like discipline becomes so, um, hard that, uh,

00:18:56.220 It's an idol.

00:18:57.680 Yeah.

00:18:58.180 It defines their worth.

00:18:59.140 And I think that could also be dangerous.

00:19:00.380 You know, how do you balance that?

00:19:05.420 You know, I, it's, it is hard.

00:19:07.340 Admittedly, I'm an obsessive personality.

00:19:09.580 So if I do something, I don't dabble in things.

00:19:14.220 Oh, you go all in.

00:19:15.580 I don't dabble in relationships.

00:19:17.120 I don't dabble in training.

00:19:18.480 I don't dabble in nutrition.

00:19:19.540 I don't dabble in business.

00:19:20.800 There isn't a part of my life that I dabble.

00:19:22.440 I go all the way in.

00:19:23.800 So are you also very hard on yourself though?

00:19:26.520 Um, I'm learning to not be so hard on myself.

00:19:29.760 Yeah.

00:19:30.560 I, I'm not hard on myself, but I expect a lot of myself because I know what I'm capable

00:19:36.460 of.

00:19:36.900 Right.

00:19:38.020 But, um, if I do fall short, I am also fairly willing and able to acknowledge and chalk it

00:19:45.540 up and say, that's okay.

00:19:46.480 Just do better tomorrow.

00:19:47.400 Yeah.

00:19:47.600 Tomorrow's okay.

00:19:48.220 Yeah.

00:19:48.460 Yeah.

00:19:48.740 Um, I think a lot of men, uh, struggle with, um, the whole being too hard on themselves.

00:19:54.760 You know, um, I, I love what you said.

00:19:58.520 It's really powerful.

00:20:00.060 Uh, it just landed with me when you said, I know what I'm capable of.

00:20:04.280 Um, and you said it in a way that wasn't arrogant.

00:20:06.680 You just said it with certainty.

00:20:08.600 Uh, also when you say, I know what I'm capable of, uh, it also implies that I'm not going

00:20:13.460 to give myself excuses.

00:20:14.360 You know, um, you know, um, there's, there's a self-worth in that when you said, I know what

00:20:18.460 I'm capable of.

00:20:19.220 Um, and so that's really powerful.

00:20:21.840 That's, that's, uh, and, and I, and of course, you know, like obviously your podcast and other

00:20:26.240 things you do, um, you could feel the energy of your discipline, you know, um, which I,

00:20:32.520 yeah, I mean, I, I think it's a, I think it's a balance between, um, having discipline, knowing

00:20:36.820 what you're capable of, um, not having excuses, you know, all that building what you want to

00:20:41.100 build.

00:20:41.600 Um, but also if you fail, cause you will, or if you fall, or if you don't make something

00:20:46.340 happen, um, to not internalize that, I think that's a piece that can be dangerous, right?

00:20:51.480 You're not a piece of shit or less of a man or whatever, because you couldn't do this

00:20:55.760 one thing.

00:20:56.200 And then I think that's where men struggle, you know?

00:20:59.100 Well, and I've heard it and I can't remember.

00:21:01.200 Maybe you, maybe, you know, the difference between guilt and shame is I failed versus

00:21:07.220 I am a failure.

00:21:09.180 Yes.

00:21:09.720 Acknowledging you failed is fine, but saying that you're predetermined or destined to be

00:21:14.180 a failure is not okay.

00:21:15.880 It's not true.

00:21:16.420 Yeah.

00:21:16.600 It's, uh, I did something bad as opposed to I am bad.

00:21:20.640 It's the internalization piece that is, um, shame.

00:21:24.400 Yeah.

00:21:25.000 Yeah.

00:21:25.380 Well, I also think a lot of men, they live, I don't think there's anything wrong with living

00:21:30.960 in the moment if it means you're being present to what you're doing.

00:21:33.660 So for example, you and I are living in this moment right now and you're, you're present

00:21:37.680 and attentive.

00:21:38.820 I'm present and attentive.

00:21:40.420 I'm not distracted.

00:21:41.320 You're not distracted, but there's also a, there's also a threat with that.

00:21:47.720 If you're so, if you're living in the moment, but you don't think about the eternal perspective,

00:21:53.900 I think it's easier to just, Oh, I know what you're saying.

00:21:57.560 Wallow in your own self pity and cry and whine and complain because this is all you're

00:22:03.880 thinking about.

00:22:04.540 But if you broaden your, your horizon a little bit, you can see, okay, yeah, I feel like crap

00:22:09.940 right now, but in a month or tomorrow or in a year, I'm going to be fine.

00:22:15.840 And that long-term perspective, have you found that to be helpful with the people that you

00:22:20.440 work with and talk with?

00:22:21.800 Yeah.

00:22:21.940 You're talking about pulling back and seeing, um, the, the bigger picture.

00:22:25.980 Uh, um, you're talking about, um, when people say living in the moment, um, actually not

00:22:32.500 living in the moment, noticing the moment being present, but not living there because you got

00:22:37.680 shit to do because there's other things to do.

00:22:39.860 You have stuff on the calendar, right?

00:22:41.600 You got to go chase, uh, whatever lights you up.

00:22:43.460 Um, yeah, it's really interesting.

00:22:45.720 I've never heard it in that sense because I think we give living in the moment.

00:22:50.440 Um, such high praise, right?

00:22:53.380 And, um, I think what we really mean is to be grounded and present.

00:22:57.260 Um, but it is also important to live, uh, not in the moment, but also in the future and

00:23:03.420 in the past.

00:23:04.060 It's, it's okay to visit what you failed, just don't live there.

00:23:07.220 And it's okay to, um, have goals and dreams and want to build your empire.

00:23:12.460 Uh, and if you're just living in the moment, then of course you're not doing that.

00:23:15.560 So, um, swimming toward your true North requires a pulling back and living at other places,

00:23:21.400 uh, besides the here and now.

00:23:24.440 I, um, one of my favorite movies is gladiator.

00:23:27.480 And I went to the movies and watched the second one.

00:23:30.800 And I went to the movie by myself for the first time in my entire life to go see that

00:23:36.020 movie, which is actually something I wanted to talk with you about.

00:23:38.260 I've never gone to a movie by myself.

00:23:40.080 How old were you?

00:23:41.520 When I went?

00:23:42.240 Yeah.

00:23:43.300 Oh no, I'm saying this new gladiator movie that just came out.

00:23:46.600 So like two days ago, I went to the movie by myself.

00:23:48.360 Oh my God.

00:23:49.400 So I was 43.

00:23:51.240 Oh my God.

00:23:52.000 Wow.

00:23:53.180 Yeah.

00:23:53.660 Yeah.

00:23:54.200 Um, but one of the, my favorite lines from gladiator and then now gladiator too, is what

00:23:59.920 we do in life echoes in eternity.

00:24:03.280 Hmm.

00:24:03.680 And I think even in hardship or breakups or whatever life throws at us, if you say to

00:24:11.620 yourself, well, okay, that sucked, whether it was self-inflicted or not, but now, okay,

00:24:16.560 the way I handle myself in this moment echoes in eternity.

00:24:20.700 I can either be a bitch and I can cry and complain and I can be an asshole to the people

00:24:25.740 around me, or I can pick myself up, dust myself off and do what I maybe should have done all

00:24:32.620 along.

00:24:34.580 Yeah.

00:24:35.500 Um, when you said I could be a bitch, I have, I have some feelings about that.

00:24:41.220 Um, it's a, uh, uh, growing up in locker rooms.

00:24:44.960 Um, the word little bitch was thrown around a lot, um, you know, around men, like stopping

00:24:49.860 a little bitch.

00:24:50.940 Um, and I still find myself using it sometimes, but you know, I, I feel like, um, there are

00:24:57.180 some days that I feel like, uh, here's an example.

00:25:00.000 So yesterday, um, instead of, uh, doing my program, I was like, I just, I don't, I don't

00:25:06.180 feel this today.

00:25:07.120 I'm just going to go in the gym.

00:25:08.220 I'm just going to run for a little bit.

00:25:10.080 I'm just going to do a little bit of, of, um, some squats and come home.

00:25:14.480 Um, and usually on the ride home, I'd be really mad at myself, but, uh, I don't know,

00:25:19.200 maybe it's cause I'm 51.

00:25:20.220 I'm, I, I, I'm okay with things like that more now than ever before.

00:25:24.400 So I, I wouldn't call myself a little bitch for not following the program, um, because

00:25:30.820 yesterday I just felt like I needed that.

00:25:33.220 Do you know what I'm saying?

00:25:33.700 And so I think there needs to be, um, discipline.

00:25:36.760 There needs to be, here are some things that are prescribed and what I know is good for

00:25:39.600 me.

00:25:40.120 And then there, there needs to be some days where you're okay.

00:25:42.560 Uh, if you don't execute on those things, you know, I would agree with that.

00:25:47.900 And I think that's your, you said you're 51.

00:25:49.860 Um, yeah, yeah, I'm 43.

00:25:52.260 I, I feel that with age too, where I'm a little bit more graceful with other people and myself.

00:25:58.400 Um, I, but it's a spectrum, you know, like the guys who are overly what you're talking

00:26:03.580 about, like, Oh, it's okay.

00:26:05.080 Like it'll happen someday.

00:26:06.700 And like, whatever, like those people probably need more of that attitude.

00:26:11.260 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:11.740 Of course.

00:26:12.020 And the guys who are, where I tend to fall more on that line is do your work, put your

00:26:17.480 head down, nose of the grindstone.

00:26:18.980 Don't complain.

00:26:19.840 Don't whine.

00:26:20.800 I could probably use a little bit more of what you're talking about.

00:26:23.920 So I think it's important to know.

00:26:25.240 That's why I don't call other people, little bitches.

00:26:28.580 You just, that's not my place.

00:26:30.180 They need to do that for themselves.

00:26:31.820 I can do, I can call myself whatever I want.

00:26:34.280 I don't want to call other people names or assume that I know about what they're going

00:26:37.960 through or how they've dealt with life.

00:26:39.440 Yeah.

00:26:39.800 Maybe instead of a little bitch, you're just a big bitch.

00:26:41.780 Maybe if I call myself a big bitch, it's a little more compassionate.

00:26:44.600 Something about little bearded, bearded, bearded bitch and beardless bitch.

00:26:47.840 Yeah.

00:26:48.980 Um, uh, yes, you're absolutely right.

00:26:51.500 And if I, if I, if I then today in the next few other days, I'm like, yeah, I'm not going

00:26:55.640 to do the program.

00:26:56.320 I'm just going to do my own thing.

00:26:57.600 Then now I'm making excuses.

00:26:58.920 So I think at the end of the day, you just gotta be honest with yourself.

00:27:01.460 You know, you just gotta be honest with yourself.

00:27:03.220 Yes.

00:27:03.460 Um, are you giving yourself corrective experiences or are you making excuses?

00:27:07.140 I do agree with that.

00:27:08.180 Uh, but going, going back to you, going to the movies by yourself, what, what made you

00:27:12.000 say that, um, or, or actually what was that like for you for the first time in your life

00:27:16.160 at, you know, age, uh, in your forties to go sit at a movie theater by yourself?

00:27:20.020 It was awesome.

00:27:20.660 Oh, I love it.

00:27:21.260 It was awesome.

00:27:21.720 I love it.

00:27:22.100 I think more because I didn't have to worry about anybody else or anybody else having a

00:27:25.500 good time.

00:27:25.920 Like, I just wanted to go see a movie.

00:27:27.560 I pulled it up on prime.

00:27:28.940 It wasn't available.

00:27:29.640 I'm like, let me see if it's available in the theater.

00:27:31.880 It was awesome.

00:27:32.740 It was fun.

00:27:33.000 I, I love that.

00:27:34.200 I think more people should do that.

00:27:35.200 I remember after my divorce, um, I read somewhere that Ryan Reynolds, um, before he became famous,

00:27:41.180 he just wrote his little triumph motorcycle all over Hollywood.

00:27:44.700 It said it kind of saved his life.

00:27:46.480 Um, and then I was like, oh, that's so weird.

00:27:48.640 I don't even understand what that means.

00:27:49.700 Um, but when I first bought my motorcycle, that's kind of what I did.

00:27:52.800 I did a lot of things alone.

00:27:53.920 Like you going to the movies, I would sit in cafes.

00:27:57.080 Uh, I would go to the movies.

00:27:58.360 I would sit in diners with just a notebook and, you know, Wayne Dyer in my ear.

00:28:01.560 And I would just, uh, just be alone, go to the beach by myself and like run.

00:28:05.520 Um, and I was like, oh, there's something, um, about this.

00:28:08.920 There's a, there's a solitude in this.

00:28:10.640 And there's a, also a discomfort, uh, and feeling weird because people are going to judge

00:28:15.800 me that I purposely sat in for me to connect to myself and be more comfortable with self.

00:28:20.580 So that was treatment.

00:28:22.280 Oh, I had that for sure.

00:28:23.480 I remember cause I walked through the front and I looked up and I saw some couples and I

00:28:28.980 saw a dad with his two boys that look like, and some other people.

00:28:33.260 And I'm like, oh man, am I a loser?

00:28:35.120 That's what, that was what was going through my mind.

00:28:36.820 I'm a loser by myself.

00:28:38.060 Right.

00:28:38.440 But I, I'm not a loser.

00:28:39.940 I chose to just go to the movie.

00:28:41.560 I didn't have anything to do that afternoon.

00:28:43.220 I wanted to go see it.

00:28:44.040 And it's amazing how much the perception of other people we take on as our own weight

00:28:50.020 or our own baggage to use the term that you mentioned earlier.

00:28:52.700 Yeah.

00:28:52.840 And also none of those people are even looking at you.

00:28:54.680 They don't care.

00:28:55.660 They don't care.

00:28:56.400 They don't care.

00:28:57.240 Or, or if they do, they're making up their own story.

00:28:59.480 Like that guy must just want to see this movie and nobody else wanted to go with him.

00:29:02.660 Like they're not thinking ill of you the way you think they're thinking of you.

00:29:06.020 The parents, especially other dads are like, fuck, look at that guy.

00:29:09.020 How lucky he is.

00:29:09.760 I wish I could do that.

00:29:10.580 I wish I could do that.

00:29:11.640 I wish I could leave the house and just go see a movie.

00:29:13.880 Totally.

00:29:15.680 No, I think that actually.

00:29:17.400 Oh, sorry.

00:29:17.740 You remind me of something that was a mantra at 35 when I got my divorce.

00:29:25.220 And it was, I made a promise to myself.

00:29:28.340 I said, I will never exchange my truth for membership.

00:29:31.240 And I kept saying that to myself.

00:29:32.760 I would never exchange my truth for membership.

00:29:35.080 And that's because in Hollywood as a screenwriter in my 30s, 20s, that's all I did is I lived

00:29:40.940 very outside in instead of inside out.

00:29:43.240 And I exchanged truth for membership to fit in.

00:29:45.280 And, and, and, and maybe that membership was, you know, dating someone or maybe that membership

00:29:49.300 was a business deal or whatever that was.

00:29:51.300 I was always trying to be a part of something else in exchange, abandoning myself.

00:29:57.460 And, uh, when I had nothing at 35, I started there and I said, I'm not doing that anymore.

00:30:01.840 Um, and that was a, that was a pretty big game changer for me.

00:30:05.500 Do you find that a lot of men do that in their relationships and, and, and what type of

00:30:10.860 problems I've done it where it's like, I don't think she'll respond well to this.

00:30:15.860 Wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on a second.

00:30:17.940 Like that is not the right thought to be having.

00:30:20.880 I think a lot of people do what, what you do is you, um, start to break up with you.

00:30:24.920 You start to carry resent, resentment.

00:30:27.760 Um, I, I gave up a lot because I thought love looked like you should only be with your

00:30:32.620 partner and that's where all the time should be spent.

00:30:35.260 Um, so, you know, I, my, my truth, which was, you know, having friends, going to the gym,

00:30:41.720 having a motorcycle, having a life, I, um, exchanged that for membership.

00:30:45.960 And in this case, um, to be a husband, uh, what I thought was a good husband.

00:30:49.940 Um, and then I realized later that that actually was part of why the marriage failed, you know?

00:30:56.380 How do you strike the balance though, between being honest and true to yourself, maybe even

00:31:02.040 self-care and fulfilling your, I don't want to say duty that makes it sound obligatory,

00:31:09.620 but your responsibility, your commitments that you have to serve and, and sacrifice in

00:31:16.520 some ways for your wife or your girlfriend and your kids.

00:31:19.920 So how do you strike that balance?

00:31:21.540 Yeah, I think it's a, it's a conversation.

00:31:23.180 And I think, uh, every relationships require compromise, um, but not compromise of self,

00:31:29.240 right?

00:31:29.840 So if there's any kind of self abandoning and you know what, listen, realistically, yeah,

00:31:34.700 maybe once or twice there will be right.

00:31:36.880 And that's, that's not bad, but if it's continual, right?

00:31:40.320 If you're constantly, um, so for example, let's say that, um, um, in, in my, uh, my marriage,

00:31:46.900 uh, uh, my, my partner won't let me have a motorcycle.

00:31:49.880 Right.

00:31:50.900 Um, and, and, uh, I decide, okay, I'm never going to have a motorcycle again because she doesn't

00:31:55.140 want me to, um, she will leave.

00:31:57.180 So I'm going to abandon that part of me.

00:31:59.480 Well, it's not just about the motorcycle, but it's also what it represents.

00:32:02.040 It's my connection to it.

00:32:03.320 It's a part of who I am.

00:32:04.340 I also had the motorcycle before I met her.

00:32:07.360 And so I have to ask myself, am I abandoning myself?

00:32:10.680 You know, and, and, and, and listen, it's not about ultimatums, but there's, now there's

00:32:14.080 a conversation, you know, um, what is it about the motorcycle that scares you?

00:32:17.100 I know they're dangerous.

00:32:17.960 Let's talk about it.

00:32:18.620 And then there can be a compromise where people are not being abandoned, uh, abandoning themselves.

00:32:23.480 Um, so that, that's, if not, then I sell the bike.

00:32:29.640 Now I have resentment and that resentment is like a stone, a pebble in your shoe.

00:32:33.740 And, uh, then I'm going to try to do tit for tat.

00:32:36.780 I'm going to be like, oh, well, you know, well, if I get rid of the more, you, you made

00:32:39.840 me get rid of the motorcycle.

00:32:40.540 Um, I want you to stop, you know, buying those dresses, or I want you to, I want to stop

00:32:45.160 traveling or, you know, doing something to get at back at that person.

00:32:49.120 And now it's tug of war.

00:32:50.500 Now it's, you know, and so, um, not abandoning self, not having resentment, having conversations,

00:32:56.900 um, but, but relationships do require compromise for sure.

00:33:01.780 Gentlemen, just take a pause on that conversation.

00:33:03.740 We'll get right back to it.

00:33:04.800 I want to ask you a question.

00:33:06.660 What do you want this year?

00:33:09.260 And I should say 2025.

00:33:11.160 Really, what do you want?

00:33:12.720 If you're like most men, you'll probably say something like make more money, have more fun,

00:33:18.420 uh, be a better dad and a husband.

00:33:20.760 And there's nothing wrong with wanting those things.

00:33:23.040 But if that's the extent of your effort in mapping out exactly what you want, you're not

00:33:28.840 likely to achieve it or were anything for that matter.

00:33:31.500 And that's where our brotherhood, the iron council comes into play.

00:33:35.120 Now, when you band with us, the first thing that we're going to do is teach you how to

00:33:39.180 clearly define your objectives, ones that you can actually achieve.

00:33:42.960 And then from there, we're going to teach you how to map out and execute very precise laser

00:33:48.960 like precision activities.

00:33:51.820 So you can see results fast.

00:33:54.260 And then last, we're going to connect you with 1000 plus other men who are all doing the

00:33:58.640 same work.

00:33:59.080 These are men who will have your back.

00:34:02.100 Uh, they're going to give you a kick in the pants if you need it.

00:34:04.280 And they'll be there when you need them.

00:34:06.120 In fact, I've had men that I've relied on and called as well in my own personal struggles

00:34:11.260 throughout the past 10 years.

00:34:13.500 Uh, we are hosting a preview call on Monday, January 6th at 8 PM Eastern.

00:34:18.780 Again, that's Monday, January 6th at 8 PM Eastern.

00:34:21.820 And I want you on that call with me and the other guys.

00:34:24.740 So if you had to the iron council.com slash preview, that's the iron council.com slash

00:34:31.160 preview.

00:34:31.880 You can get registered to join us on January 6th at 8 PM Eastern for a preview call of the

00:34:38.400 iron council.

00:34:39.160 Again, the iron council.com slash preview for now.

00:34:42.160 Let's get back to it with John.

00:34:43.120 Um, yeah, I mean, in that case, what you, you could always say, you know, Hey babe, I'm

00:34:49.700 going to keep the motorcycle, but I'll take out a large life insurance policy on myself.

00:34:53.480 Or she might actually encourage you to go ride.

00:34:56.020 Yeah.

00:34:56.200 Oh yeah.

00:34:57.040 Or, uh, I won't drive it when it rains or I'll ride it, you know, once a week.

00:35:00.980 Yeah.

00:35:01.540 That's where the compromise happens.

00:35:03.760 And also, um, if you guys can, uh, repair that rupture, there's, there's, uh, there's

00:35:08.600 relationship glue in that, right?

00:35:10.260 So if there's something that you guys used to fight about, but then through conversation

00:35:14.180 and some compromise without people abandoning themselves, you come to a conclusion, uh, then

00:35:19.700 the fact that you guys were able to do that produces trust, right?

00:35:23.840 That in itself can be a corrective experience because most of us, uh, we, we don't repair

00:35:29.300 ruptures well.

00:35:30.160 And so that's why eventually the plane goes down.

00:35:33.020 That's actually, I've never heard of it put that way, but that's really interesting because

00:35:39.160 we, we think just intuitively that if we fight or debate or even just hold the line on something

00:35:48.300 in a reasonable way that it's going to create friction in the relationship and it might, it

00:35:52.620 probably will, but if you can repair the friction, the relationship is stronger.

00:35:58.660 The trust is greater is what you're saying.

00:36:00.940 Yeah.

00:36:01.160 And my whole thing is, uh, if we can give ourselves corrective love experiences.

00:36:05.800 So what I mean by that is a lot of times, um, in previous relationships, uh, we weren't

00:36:10.280 able to, to repair ruptures.

00:36:12.480 And so our body feels like, Oh, here we go again.

00:36:15.360 The sky is falling.

00:36:16.340 There's panic.

00:36:17.100 Like, you know, there's, we start protecting ourselves by pushing people away.

00:36:20.840 Um, but once we convince our bodies, not our minds that, Oh, we can have a fight and then

00:36:26.600 we can work through it.

00:36:27.780 We can have a fight and then have makeup sex.

00:36:30.820 We can have a fight and then tomorrow morning and still have pancakes and everything's good.

00:36:34.720 This is, wow, this is different.

00:36:36.440 It's convincing your body that you can, um, it's okay to disagree and to, and to have

00:36:42.560 fights and is, and you trust that the relationship is greater than that.

00:36:45.680 Um, and then you guys can repair, uh, that kind of safety is actually kind of rare.

00:36:50.180 We're not used to that.

00:36:51.180 And so, um, that to me is the goal.

00:36:54.080 That's, that's the island to swim towards, you know, as far as building a relationship.

00:36:59.080 What did you call it?

00:37:00.080 Corrective something experiences?

00:37:01.760 Corrective love experience.

00:37:03.440 Love experiences.

00:37:04.700 Yeah.

00:37:04.900 That's interesting.

00:37:06.560 Most of us have not had those.

00:37:08.300 Most of us have had, um, toxic or, um, unhealthy love experiences.

00:37:13.040 You know, do you find that if a partner in this case, let's say a man, cause this is a

00:37:18.060 show for men that if a man decides to go first in that, let's say him and his wife, uh, got

00:37:23.880 into a heated exchange or debate last night.

00:37:27.000 And if the man can initiate playfulness or, um, some sort of, you know, apology, like a

00:37:34.880 genuine, sincere apology, do you, have you seen that women will dig in or are they receptive

00:37:41.820 to that?

00:37:42.520 And does that leadership in a man by him going first foster that in her?

00:37:47.660 Yeah.

00:37:48.420 This reminds me of, um, uh, another mantra, um, that was a game changer for me.

00:37:53.280 And it was, uh, try to understand before trying to be understood.

00:37:57.700 And, uh, most of my life I try to be understood first.

00:38:01.700 Like, here's my point.

00:38:03.060 Here's what you need to know.

00:38:04.260 Here's my stance.

00:38:05.320 And then I'll understand you.

00:38:06.880 But when you flip it and if two people are doing it, then it creates the safe space.

00:38:10.900 Right?

00:38:11.220 So I always try to understand first and you don't have to agree.

00:38:14.820 Just try to understand, you know, based on, uh, her story, you know, her really well.

00:38:20.660 So what activates her, why she's holding this position, just try to understand, put yourself

00:38:24.900 in her shoes.

00:38:25.720 You don't have to agree.

00:38:26.880 And then after you try to understand, um, there's such power in someone feeling seen

00:38:32.020 and heard.

00:38:32.400 So to validate, I get how you're feeling.

00:38:34.980 I get why, I get why me riding my motorcycle is scary for you, especially now because we

00:38:41.000 have a daughter and your dad died on a motorcycle or whatever, right?

00:38:44.460 Like you have to first understand and then you can then try to be understood and say,

00:38:49.760 Hey, this is what this means to me.

00:38:51.580 Um, here's why I do it.

00:38:52.980 Here's where we compromise.

00:38:53.920 Um, but I think, I think, um, putting in the reps to learn how to repair ruptures, um,

00:39:01.760 is foundational.

00:39:02.800 I think if, if, if as a couple, you don't have that tool and, and ruptures are never

00:39:08.320 repaired, it could, it could appear like everything's okay, but people are holding resentment.

00:39:13.180 There is drift, there is fear, there's disconnect.

00:39:16.180 Um, and eventually it's all, you know, there's someone's gonna either cheat on, you know, each

00:39:20.680 someone or, um, it might be a blindsided breakup or, you know, uh, the relationship will

00:39:25.840 probably expire, you know?

00:39:27.000 Um, yeah, I mean, it's a, it's just a volcano, like a sedated volcano, just waiting to explode.

00:39:35.180 Yeah.

00:39:35.640 And I would also say that no one teaches us how to repair ruptures.

00:39:38.660 Um, when, when do we ever learn how to repair fights?

00:39:41.520 Never.

00:39:43.460 Yeah.

00:39:43.860 I think most people just naturally dig in their heels or as you said earlier, assassinate

00:39:48.840 characters and, um, double down on the bull crap instead of like, Hey, you know, I could

00:39:56.540 have done that differently.

00:39:57.700 Yeah.

00:39:58.200 Yeah.

00:39:58.420 And I think especially men, um, can be very defensive.

00:40:02.240 Uh, this is a generalization because men can be very, um, logical, uh, more so than, than

00:40:07.280 women.

00:40:07.940 Um, women tend to feel more, um, because men are logical.

00:40:11.780 We turn into lawyers when it comes to fighting.

00:40:13.800 Uh, you know, now we're in a courtroom and trying to prove our case.

00:40:16.780 And then, so the other party is, doesn't feel heard.

00:40:19.980 They feel like we're, we're just, um, being super logical, you know, trying to win.

00:40:24.920 Do you, do you think, I don't know if I agree with that.

00:40:29.760 I used to, I used to maybe agree with that, but I think men are just as emotional as women

00:40:35.920 are.

00:40:36.220 We just deal with it differently.

00:40:37.900 You know, and I think Jordan Peterson was talking about it when, when a man is upset at

00:40:43.380 another man, for example, he'll go do something physical, you know, maybe he goes and gets

00:40:49.100 in a fist fight.

00:40:49.880 Maybe he, you know, steals something.

00:40:52.140 I don't know.

00:40:52.380 He does something physical.

00:40:53.680 A woman will get just as mad, but she'll do something conniving.

00:40:56.800 So she'll spread rumors and she'll gossip behind the woman behind her back.

00:41:01.560 And she'll try to undermine or sabotage her all based on the same level of anger or frustration.

00:41:08.160 It's just the way that we deal with it.

00:41:09.560 It's the way we deal with it.

00:41:10.780 Um, so I'm very sensitive.

00:41:11.880 I would say, you know, I'm more emotional than, than my, than my wife, uh, hands down for

00:41:17.000 sure.

00:41:17.820 Um, but before the way that I used to deal with it was very reactive.

00:41:22.560 Um, so I think, and again, generalization, but I think the way that men deal with their

00:41:28.020 feelings, uh, being hurt, uh, anger, whatever is kind of, um, it's either explosive or it's,

00:41:35.240 uh, pushing down, you know?

00:41:37.440 Um, I think women allow themselves to feel more.

00:41:40.280 Uh, and, and I also think women have more space to, uh, express those feelings, uh, with

00:41:45.900 girlfriends, et cetera, where men, um, I don't know, you, you're not going to go golfing

00:41:50.120 with your dudes and talk about how you're, I mean, maybe, but usually those spaces aren't

00:41:54.280 created.

00:41:54.740 There's a locker room, there's a boardroom.

00:41:56.680 Um, but there isn't like a, um, safe space for men to talk about, um, their struggles,

00:42:01.020 you know?

00:42:01.500 And so, uh, we don't get to let it out.

00:42:04.260 It's just suppressed.

00:42:05.060 And then we blow up, you know, generally.

00:42:06.420 I would agree with that.

00:42:08.600 I think if a man needs that and he does need that quite honestly, I safe space has some

00:42:14.200 connotations, you know, so I use different verbiage, but, uh, I know what you're saying.

00:42:19.200 And I think that every man needs that, but it's going to be on him to create it because

00:42:26.100 culturally it's not acceptable.

00:42:28.200 It's not acceptable.

00:42:29.480 It's not baked in.

00:42:30.600 Um, what's a, what's a, a different, um, word we could use or a term instead of safe space.

00:42:36.420 Is it something more, more creative or something that works for you?

00:42:40.100 No, I actually don't really have that.

00:42:42.260 I, the only re I have said one thing and it's just kind of a play and I don't want to debate

00:42:47.200 semantics necessarily, but the reason that I struggle with safe space is because to me,

00:42:52.120 there's a connotation of free from conflict.

00:42:55.080 And I don't, I don't think there needs to be a space free of conflict, free of judgment,

00:43:00.060 maybe free of persecution.

00:43:03.000 But I think, um, in a relationship, if you want it to be safe or free of conflict, that

00:43:10.080 just, that place just does not exist in any fabric of society.

00:43:15.340 I see what you're saying.

00:43:15.780 So you're interpreting safe as in, yeah, there's, there's no conflict.

00:43:18.960 Like it sounds a little like, uh, in the clouds, a little soft.

00:43:22.680 A little bit.

00:43:23.520 Yeah.

00:43:23.860 I don't think, by the way, I don't think you mean it that way.

00:43:26.460 No, no, no, no.

00:43:27.020 As you explained it.

00:43:27.480 Right.

00:43:27.720 But I think it's taken that way.

00:43:29.160 Like you hear these university places where these kids can come in and cry and skip out

00:43:34.380 on their exams because somebody got elected president, uh, or there was some, you know,

00:43:40.040 social injustice happening.

00:43:41.680 It's like, welcome to life.

00:43:44.400 Like that's, you got to figure out a way to, the term that I've used in the past, again,

00:43:49.300 it's just a play on words.

00:43:50.520 It might mean the same thing or something different to somebody else, but a secure place.

00:43:55.280 It's secure.

00:43:56.240 It's a place where there might still be conflict.

00:43:58.940 There might still be friction, but we're, we're, we're secure here.

00:44:02.940 We're protected here.

00:44:05.060 It's subtle, but I hear what you're saying.

00:44:07.040 I hear what you're saying.

00:44:08.120 Uh, safe is misleading.

00:44:10.120 Safe is not accurate because the world is not safe.

00:44:12.120 Um, secure seems protective, seems intentional.

00:44:16.140 Like I, I, I, I can see that.

00:44:17.900 Yeah.

00:44:18.280 And some vigilance behind it.

00:44:19.700 Like we're deliberately doing this.

00:44:21.560 We're, we're secured in this place because we've decided that this is the place we're

00:44:25.380 going to do whatever it is we're going to do.

00:44:28.240 And so we're deliberate about making sure that this is a protected environment for us

00:44:32.080 to do and say what needs to be done and said.

00:44:34.440 Safe space seems kind of like a bubble fantasy.

00:44:37.180 Secure space feels like here's our tree house, our fort.

00:44:39.980 Yeah.

00:44:41.580 And I really don't care what anybody else thinks.

00:44:43.780 I just use it because of the connotation that it, it, it drums up in my mind and it

00:44:48.060 works for me.

00:44:48.720 Yeah.

00:44:48.900 I think also being a male therapist and, uh, you know, my whole thing is kind of street

00:44:52.880 level, um, safe space has been used so much.

00:44:56.960 It's a little woo woo.

00:44:57.800 Um, and then the, the, the word then kind of, um, has puts a bad taste in your mouth.

00:45:02.540 Like, you know, other words to like, um, like a narcissist and other words that are played

00:45:06.840 out.

00:45:07.140 Um, it, it just, it, they don't have the same, um, stick because they're so overused, you

00:45:12.300 know?

00:45:13.020 Yeah.

00:45:13.460 Uh, to go back to the, uh, example of a motorcycle and you start talking with your partner about,

00:45:19.180 um, what she might be concerned with and you start addressing those things and maybe she

00:45:24.940 sees you handling it in a different way than her dad who died on a motorcycle, right?

00:45:29.480 As an example.

00:45:30.180 I think what you're doing is you're helping her rewrite the story or the narrative around

00:45:36.980 it.

00:45:37.240 But how do you rewrite your own narrative about past breakups, uh, trauma, the way people

00:45:46.200 treat you?

00:45:47.420 How do you rewrite that for yourself?

00:45:49.460 Sometimes it's easier for men to focus on other people than it is to focus on themselves.

00:45:54.580 Um, man, that's a long conversation.

00:45:56.400 I think, uh, you know, for me, it's not a logical process.

00:46:01.120 It's, uh, dropping into my body and, uh, and giving myself an experience that, uh, contradicts

00:46:08.140 what I went through.

00:46:09.180 Um, it's this idea of reparenting, reconditioning, rewiring, you know, and, uh, it's very easy

00:46:16.000 to know what it takes to transform your body, right?

00:46:19.680 So like the amount of work, sweat, um, the discipline and diet.

00:46:24.020 And when you think about what it takes to, whether it's build muscle, lose fat, get stronger,

00:46:28.980 um, you, everyone knows what that takes.

00:46:31.680 It's a tremendous amount of work.

00:46:33.620 Um, but it's through those experiences where you see that transformation.

00:46:37.000 And I, I, I tried to look at relationships and love the same way where it's going to require

00:46:42.280 that much work.

00:46:43.460 It's going to require a sitting with a lot of uncomfortable feelings, um, going back to what

00:46:49.200 happen and, uh, seeing it through a new lens, um, you know, giving, um, your, your, your

00:46:54.980 body, um, somatic experiences with your partner where, uh, you can, your body can be convinced

00:47:03.900 that there's something different, something healthy.

00:47:05.720 Um, most of us grew up in very chaotic, toxic, unsafe containers, uh, very insecure containers.

00:47:12.140 We grew up in.

00:47:12.820 Unsecure.

00:47:13.180 Yeah.

00:47:13.640 Insecure.

00:47:14.200 Yeah.

00:47:14.820 That's right.

00:47:15.240 And so our, our body knows, uh, that's homeostasis.

00:47:18.280 That's what our body knows.

00:47:19.060 That's why a lot of times we get into something healthy and it feels boring.

00:47:21.920 I'm like, I don't even want this.

00:47:23.560 There's not, there's not enough drama.

00:47:25.000 This feels weird.

00:47:25.900 My body's not used to it.

00:47:26.660 Oh, like a healthy relationship.

00:47:27.660 Yeah.

00:47:27.920 You mean?

00:47:28.240 Yeah.

00:47:28.820 Yeah.

00:47:29.140 Um, a lot of times people mistake chemistry for, uh, drama and toxicity just because it's

00:47:34.900 what smells familiar, you know?

00:47:37.180 And so, um, you got to swim past the breakers.

00:47:39.440 You got to recondition your body like you're reconditioning body in the gym.

00:47:43.620 Um, it, it, it requires that many reps.

00:47:47.140 It requires, uh, uh, threading into your daily life where you're telling your body, um, this

00:47:54.240 is what love can be like and fights aren't going to, um, you know, get people to leave

00:48:00.020 and I can trust my partner or, you know, all those things, you know?

00:48:05.040 Um, yeah, it's a daily thing.

00:48:06.780 And I, you know, I, I think, I don't think it's easy.

00:48:08.840 I think, you know, people snap back often, but, um, I've been with my partner for seven

00:48:12.660 years and I'm 51 and, uh, yeah, we're still, we're still working through stuff.

00:48:17.680 Um, but, uh, this is the longest I've been in a relationship and has, have stayed and

00:48:22.560 sat with.

00:48:23.760 And, uh, this is the first relationship where I'm hitting higher notes, you know?

00:48:29.080 Hmm.

00:48:29.800 Uh, what do you attribute that to?

00:48:31.320 I mean, there's a lot of things I'm sure, but if there were a few things that you would

00:48:34.940 attribute that to, what would it be?

00:48:36.160 Uh, like I said, swimming past the breakers.

00:48:38.720 Um, a lot of times, uh, we, we bounce because, uh, and usually it's around three years, uh,

00:48:45.260 you're, you're safe because you're only year one right now for you.

00:48:48.560 Yeah.

00:48:50.940 Um, not to judge you, but, uh, I, I, I find that around three years is like the make or

00:48:55.320 break, um, when you move in with someone and, you know, now you're seeing, uh, the dirty

00:49:00.620 socks on the floor, you're seeing the three 60 of the person, not just the poster.

00:49:03.800 And, uh, uh, then you start getting activated, um, all the wounds in you, um, depending on

00:49:09.540 your story, uh, father wounds, mother wounds, or however you're brought up, it all gets

00:49:14.220 fucking activated and to, and that's the breakers to, that's what I think the breakers

00:49:18.580 are.

00:49:18.880 So, uh, to sit with that, to process, whether with the therapist or, um, with your partner,

00:49:23.760 work through it, follow the thread down.

00:49:26.760 Um, you start healing some of these wounds on the other side of that is calm, you know,

00:49:31.020 uh, in the ocean where the surfers are, the waves are, you know, kind of crazy, but then

00:49:36.300 past that the ocean's calm.

00:49:38.640 And so, um, I do think it takes years and lots of work, but once you can swim past that,

00:49:43.500 uh, then you're giving your body a new experience, you know, that's, that's different.

00:49:48.180 I like, yeah.

00:49:49.260 And I do like what you said about being deliberately contradictory, uh, contradictory, you know,

00:49:54.220 towards what you maybe naturally think a small example that comes to mind might be, maybe

00:50:00.380 you call your wife in the morning and she doesn't answer, but she doesn't get back to

00:50:05.420 you until the afternoon.

00:50:06.780 Oh, great example.

00:50:08.000 And you might, you might think, well, she's mad at me.

00:50:11.660 She like something that I said last night was wrong.

00:50:14.620 Like whatever you come up, that's what I do personally.

00:50:16.840 Yeah.

00:50:17.060 Or, or you might think like, or, or you might think like the fuck she hasn't, why is she,

00:50:21.360 am I not a priority?

00:50:22.380 I know she's selling my message, you know, that kind of thing.

00:50:25.020 Yeah.

00:50:25.200 Yeah.

00:50:25.560 Yeah.

00:50:25.760 So we have all the, these stories that we conjure up and I do certainly.

00:50:28.880 Yeah.

00:50:29.640 Or instead I've just forced myself to say, you know what?

00:50:33.840 Like maybe she's busy.

00:50:35.500 Maybe the kid just poop, pooped their pants or she had to go pick up another kid from,

00:50:41.300 from the school because he broke his arm or she's got a busy day with briefings at work.

00:50:48.380 I don't know.

00:50:49.100 But the point is, if you're going to make up a story, both you're making up, you might

00:50:55.800 as well make one up that serves you is kind of how I look at it.

00:50:58.540 Yes.

00:50:58.720 And so that's just the beginning to me.

00:51:00.320 That's not the corrective experience.

00:51:01.660 That's you actually taking responsibility and asking yourself what else could be true,

00:51:05.120 which is great.

00:51:05.760 That's the speed bump.

00:51:06.720 The corrective experience is when she gets home, you saying, hey, listen, I noticed,

00:51:13.700 I texted you this morning.

00:51:14.460 You didn't respond.

00:51:15.120 I noticed I start to feel abandoned.

00:51:17.060 I start to, and this is being vulnerable, of course, right?

00:51:19.980 Something happened in me.

00:51:21.460 I had to look at it, giving her a chance to kind of hold that space.

00:51:25.300 And she says, oh, I'm sorry.

00:51:27.200 Yes.

00:51:27.380 I was in a meeting.

00:51:28.260 I saw that text.

00:51:29.280 I was going to get back to you.

00:51:29.920 And I totally forgot.

00:51:31.480 I love you.

00:51:32.320 And I was thinking about you all day.

00:51:34.060 And it's in that kind of somatic experience, that connection you have with your partner

00:51:39.520 where you're like, that's the corrective experience.

00:51:41.700 So it's not just convincing yourself that you're overthinking, but actually having a conversation

00:51:47.500 and then an exchange of energy.

00:51:50.280 And then maybe she holds you.

00:51:51.440 Maybe you guys make love or maybe you guys hold hands, whatever it is, some kind of somatic

00:51:54.900 experience where like, oh, what?

00:51:57.200 Yeah, that was because the old would have been like.

00:51:59.920 Like, you haven't texted me back.

00:52:01.800 It's been three hours.

00:52:02.580 What the fuck's wrong with you?

00:52:03.460 Where are you?

00:52:03.940 Who are you with?

00:52:04.800 And then she reacts like, who are you?

00:52:06.780 You don't know me, you know, whatever.

00:52:08.140 So self-fulfilling prophecy at that point.

00:52:10.200 Yeah.

00:52:10.740 So and what a great example you just gave, because I can relate to that.

00:52:16.020 It's just so subtle.

00:52:17.000 Little things like that that are every day, you know?

00:52:19.820 Right.

00:52:20.640 How do you when you said that in my mind, and I think for a lot of guys that may be listening

00:52:26.200 to this podcast, they might be wondering, how do you do that?

00:52:31.020 Like, go to your wife and say, hey, I sent you a text earlier and I didn't hear back from

00:52:34.880 you.

00:52:35.300 Like, normally you would.

00:52:36.300 Everything okay?

00:52:37.040 Or what's going on?

00:52:38.020 Yeah.

00:52:38.120 How do you do that without being obnoxious or at least feeling like you're being obnoxious

00:52:45.200 or weak or overbearing or needy?

00:52:48.860 So the way that I do it is what the dangling carrot for me isn't to get an explanation.

00:52:53.660 The dangling carrot for me, and this is not just with love, but in business, anything is

00:52:58.100 I want to give myself a new experience.

00:52:59.360 I want to convince myself.

00:53:01.040 I want to be wired myself.

00:53:02.400 I don't want to think logically that, oh, I'm an overthinker.

00:53:05.420 Okay, great, but what's the experience I want from this?

00:53:08.540 And so once that's the dangling carrot, then I'm going after that.

00:53:11.700 I'm going after that like I'm going after, you know, the leaderboard at a CrossFit workout.

00:53:17.160 And so I say, well, I'm not going to attack her.

00:53:20.200 I'm going to actually tell her my experience and then take some ownership.

00:53:23.720 So it's going to require vulnerability.

00:53:25.460 And I'm going to say to her, hey, listen, when you didn't text me back, it kind of hurt

00:53:28.720 me.

00:53:29.280 It's not yours to own.

00:53:30.280 It's mine.

00:53:31.060 I've got abandonment issues or I've got insecurities or, you know, I'm jealous of that.

00:53:35.320 You know, hot, hot friend that you have or whatever.

00:53:37.680 So it's my thing, but I was hurt by that.

00:53:40.860 And I just want to let you know that, you know, I'm working through it, but that's why

00:53:43.280 I'm kind of feeling distance.

00:53:44.960 And then if she comes with you instead of at you, right, if she doesn't point fingers

00:53:50.400 and say, hey, you're weak or whatever, but if she then holds that space and say, listen,

00:53:54.800 I'm sorry I didn't text you back.

00:53:56.480 I was just busy, but I love you and I'm not going anywhere or whatever.

00:53:59.560 That experience is what I'm after.

00:54:01.380 And since I'm after that experience, it helps me want to get vulnerable and have this conversation

00:54:06.620 because of that experience isn't going to come, you know?

00:54:09.460 I think the hard part for me in the past, and I think men as a lot of men as well is, okay,

00:54:17.880 you gave me the answer that I wanted.

00:54:19.980 I feel better about myself.

00:54:21.040 And so that was, I just needed that for my own validation, which I don't think is a great

00:54:25.040 way to live.

00:54:25.720 And it seems like if you do that often enough, it actually is needy.

00:54:32.520 It actually is overbearing and dominant.

00:54:34.860 And so I, man, it's, it's hard to accept what somebody gives you as an answer and just

00:54:39.740 say, okay, I accept that.

00:54:42.140 Thank you.

00:54:42.600 Yeah.

00:54:42.880 And I think you have to be honest with yourself.

00:54:44.900 Yeah.

00:54:45.000 Yeah.

00:54:45.160 You're, you're absolutely right.

00:54:46.000 If you are someone who tends to be needy, then, then maybe that is not what's prescribed.

00:54:51.140 Um, but I, I think the, I think most, most, and I'm, I don't know, I shouldn't say most,

00:54:55.360 but there's a lot of people who aren't needy, who actually, um, will just push it away.

00:55:00.060 Won't even bring it up, you know?

00:55:01.420 And then like that moment's gone, um, that, that, um, opportunity to, to connect or to

00:55:08.440 understand each other better is gone.

00:55:10.420 Uh, because if they tell their wife that they were hurt because she didn't text him, then

00:55:14.780 he may, um, feel like he's being needy or weak or, or a quote unquote little bitch.

00:55:20.260 And so he doesn't say anything, but in a way, if he doesn't, he's also abandoning himself.

00:55:24.880 He's not actually being honest.

00:55:26.300 He's just pushing shit down, you know?

00:55:28.100 Hmm.

00:55:29.600 But yes, you're right.

00:55:30.640 If every day you're like, Oh, I got, I was hurt by this.

00:55:33.620 Hey, the way that you walked and you didn't, you didn't kiss me.

00:55:36.260 I was hurt.

00:55:36.980 Yeah.

00:55:37.300 I mean, that's, that's kind of exaggerated.

00:55:39.280 That's it.

00:55:40.540 I don't think it's exaggerated.

00:55:41.940 I think there's a lot of guys that do that, you know?

00:55:44.440 Yeah.

00:55:44.620 Yeah.

00:55:45.000 Um, but I think it goes back to what we were saying earlier about that spectrum.

00:55:49.080 If you're a guy who's maybe more of an avoidant and you push it away, maybe you ought to

00:55:53.200 address it a little bit more.

00:55:54.200 And if you're a guy who's always clingy and needy and need all the answers and validation,

00:55:58.060 maybe you ought to just take what she said to heart and figure out why you're so insecure

00:56:02.200 about everything.

00:56:03.000 So, so what you just said, that's my prescription.

00:56:04.700 I'm the guy holding onto her leg.

00:56:06.180 And so I need to not say anything and be okay.

00:56:10.280 I gravitate that way too, by the way.

00:56:11.720 I need to take a walk or self-soothe and not, not talk about it.

00:56:15.820 Um, but yeah, if you're a guy who is more stonewalling, avoidant, you know, uh, never

00:56:20.980 says anything about how he feels, then yes, you should lean into it and actually have some

00:56:24.420 of those conversations.

00:56:26.000 Yeah.

00:56:27.640 I want to go back.

00:56:28.660 We haven't really talked about the book very much.

00:56:30.600 Yeah, it's okay.

00:56:31.460 I wrote a book.

00:56:32.480 And I deliberately, I don't usually do that, like talk about the book that much because

00:56:36.280 I figure, yeah, go read the book.

00:56:37.980 Let's talk about something else that relates to the book.

00:56:40.100 But if you want what's in the book, go read it.

00:56:41.660 Yeah.

00:56:41.840 I also, I don't want this to be a commercial, you know, um, yeah, I, I, I, I think that's

00:56:47.240 a better conversation, a better podcast for sure.

00:56:51.080 But I do, I do want to hit on a couple of things cause you've identified and I can't

00:56:54.440 remember the number.

00:56:55.080 It's seven or eight different types of breakups.

00:56:56.880 Yeah.

00:56:57.080 Eight different types, eight different types.

00:56:59.400 And, and you had said that, you know, each, when we started the conversation, each breakup,

00:57:04.560 depending on the level of intimacy and the length and the duration and the feelings

00:57:08.620 and all these things, um, are there some common mistakes that people, that men make in going

00:57:15.160 through these breakups and divorce that run through and tie all of these things together?

00:57:21.620 Oh, what a great place to end.

00:57:22.940 I love this.

00:57:23.520 Uh, there is, and this is kind of the theme of my whole book is, um, after any breakup,

00:57:28.580 any, I call it, uh, uh, an expired relationship.

00:57:31.220 That really helps for me.

00:57:32.480 Some people get offended when I say that cause you know, comparing your relationship to milk,

00:57:36.140 but, um, I, we talked about that on the last podcast we did a couple of years ago, but

00:57:40.540 again, it goes back to the verbiage, whatever works for you, use what works for you.

00:57:44.380 That's really interesting.

00:57:45.280 Cause I've been saying it for that long.

00:57:46.960 And, but that's, I, that's the way I refer my divorce is that it's expired.

00:57:50.660 There's an acceptance there that cause breakup sounds so like ruptury, like, uh, this big tragedy

00:57:56.920 happened in my life.

00:57:57.700 But if I say that a relationship has expired, it wasn't meant to go a day later or end a day

00:58:02.980 sooner.

00:58:03.300 There's, there's so much acceptance in that, but anyway, um, um, it, by the way, it reminds

00:58:08.460 me, I was, uh, I was on Dax Shepard's podcast and he had a huge problem with expired relationship,

00:58:12.380 but we never got to it because we were talking about how I had sex with a plum at age 12.

00:58:16.560 Cause I was curious.

00:58:17.200 And then he went, we went down that road.

00:58:18.520 Well, I think that's, that's a conversation that I would be more interested in and not

00:58:23.560 interested in it at the same time.

00:58:24.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:25.420 Um, but, uh, so here's my thing.

00:58:28.080 And, um, after every breakup, the growth soil is the richest, uh, the big mistake I think

00:58:35.320 generally speaking men make is, um, instead of sitting with what happened, instead of processing

00:58:40.500 it, instead of looking at, uh, what your contribution was to the expiration, um, you go find someone

00:58:46.460 else, you know, or, or, or you go, you know, buy your Corvette, do your thing.

00:58:51.240 Um, not because it's honest to you, but because it's a distraction, right?

00:58:55.040 Um, so I think a lot of people miss out on the opportunity to grow, become better, to learn

00:59:01.460 more about relationships and love because it calcifies if you don't, right?

00:59:05.480 Because by the time you find someone new, that chance is all like the, the growth soil

00:59:10.240 is calcified.

00:59:10.980 You're now in something new and now you got new problems and you're, you know, so, um, before

00:59:16.040 jumping into something else, sitting with what happened, examining the black box and

00:59:21.500 why the plane went down, um, just, just take a beat, man.

00:59:24.740 Just take, you know, take a year, like what's the rush, take a year and, um, go learn more

00:59:29.300 about yourself, you know, before you find love again.

00:59:32.740 Yeah.

00:59:33.260 I don't, you, don't you do a program like 30 days to 31 days or something like that?

00:59:39.180 Yeah.

00:59:39.360 31 days.

00:59:40.120 I mean, it's one month, like get off the apps, take 31.

00:59:44.120 Speaking of discipline, 31 days to work on yourself, build a better relationship with

00:59:48.980 you.

00:59:49.200 That's what I say.

00:59:49.920 Um, um, before like, you know, before getting on apps or trying to have sex or whatever,

00:59:55.180 whatever that you're doing as a way of numbing, you know, what, what are some of the things

01:00:00.140 in that program, um, from a tactical level that you would encourage men to do?

01:00:04.540 Oh, they're daily.

01:00:05.480 There's so much.

01:00:06.140 Um, but a lot of it, um, parallels, um, what I did to, um, rebuild myself.

01:00:12.560 And a lot of, a lot of it's just kind of like, uh, simple, like, like today we're going

01:00:15.980 to get out of our house and out of our head.

01:00:17.420 That's it.

01:00:18.280 Out of your house, out of your head.

01:00:19.320 How you do it is on you.

01:00:20.600 I'm getting on my bike.

01:00:21.580 I'm going to the gym.

01:00:22.440 I'm going for a run.

01:00:23.320 Um, but, but whatever it is to get out of your head, out of your house.

01:00:26.440 So every day there's a different, um, you know, homework assignment, if you will.

01:00:31.440 I like that.

01:00:32.240 Cause I, I mean, I work best under systems.

01:00:34.360 If I have a system or a process that I can follow.

01:00:36.900 Yeah.

01:00:37.300 Uh, it's when I don't, and I'm having to like make things up or wonder if it works or not

01:00:41.900 work where, but again, that goes back to the discipline thing of having like, do this.

01:00:46.340 Did you do it?

01:00:46.840 Yes or no.

01:00:47.320 No, no, no, go or no, go exercise.

01:00:49.580 You either did it or you didn't.

01:00:50.980 Yeah.

01:00:51.540 That's it.

01:00:52.080 I think, uh, I mean, obviously a lot of men listen to your podcast because they probably

01:00:56.440 think the way that you do, and that's what works for them is give me a prescription.

01:01:00.380 Give me something that I can actually follow and do, uh, which is super helpful.

01:01:05.020 Do you find that that's, um, accurate with just in broad generalities, the way that men

01:01:11.160 view therapy?

01:01:12.140 Because I think generally when we look at therapy, we think, well, why did I want to just go like

01:01:18.160 talk about my shit?

01:01:19.320 Yeah.

01:01:19.440 It's too abstract.

01:01:19.940 I want to fix it.

01:01:20.760 Yeah.

01:01:21.340 Yeah.

01:01:21.620 Um, I think men, um, swing more toward men's coaching than therapy, uh, because therapy

01:01:28.900 feels abstract.

01:01:29.640 It's like, if I don't have a problem, why am I paying this guy just to talk about my

01:01:33.800 feelings?

01:01:34.100 It's not going to be helpful.

01:01:35.380 Um, and I, I get that.

01:01:36.560 I understand that.

01:01:37.140 But a lot of therapy, uh, speaking of corrective experiences, isn't even about what you talk

01:01:41.500 about, but it's the relationship you have with your therapist, right?

01:01:44.020 So like, if you grew up with a lot of dudes you didn't trust starting with dad, um, having

01:01:49.460 say a guy that is authentic and neutral and you establish a healthy relationship, um, and

01:01:55.140 this is your therapist that in itself can be a corrective experience for you.

01:01:58.300 You could trust men more, um, by being in that room.

01:02:01.280 Right.

01:02:01.680 So that has nothing to do with what's said.

01:02:04.160 It has to do with the authenticity and the relationship that's, that's built.

01:02:09.160 Um, but yes, you're right.

01:02:10.860 Most, I would say most men therapy is a waste because it's like, Oh, you just go in there

01:02:14.820 and talk about your feelings.

01:02:15.660 Like, what is it?

01:02:16.640 It's not a program.

01:02:17.900 It's not, I want to see results.

01:02:19.040 I want to see numbers.

01:02:19.720 I want to see, you know, um, so then I don't know, maybe coaching might be better for you.

01:02:22.980 Yeah.

01:02:24.440 I mean, I, I, I naturally gravitate more towards coaching, but I've sat down with therapists

01:02:29.080 that I really care about.

01:02:31.160 I, I respect, I admire, I appreciate our relationship.

01:02:34.020 And one of the things that I found most helpful that I did not expect was walking out of a meeting

01:02:41.760 that I had one time and thinking, man, he really didn't tell me anything.

01:02:45.960 But I feel pretty good.

01:02:47.940 And it was because I talked and I said things in a way that helped me close the gap a little

01:02:56.720 bit, not because of what he said, but because of the way I expressed it.

01:03:00.140 I'm like, Oh, I kind of answered my own question in that a little bit.

01:03:02.740 Yeah.

01:03:03.400 Um, uh, thank you for saying that therapists aren't really supposed to give answers.

01:03:06.940 We're supposed to, to hold space for you to come up with your own.

01:03:09.780 And there's something about being witnessed.

01:03:11.340 There's something about, uh, instead of, you know, saying it to yourself or in your car,

01:03:14.740 um, to say it in front of another human that's safe.

01:03:18.240 Um, that, that, that's very therapeutic.

01:03:21.240 Um, like you said, the experience that you had where you're like, just to say something

01:03:24.860 and figuring things out by myself or, or, or, uh, figuring things out, um, without the

01:03:30.740 help of someone else.

01:03:31.500 But that person being in the room was all I needed for me to, you know, go through that

01:03:35.400 process.

01:03:35.820 Yeah.

01:03:37.260 Yeah.

01:03:37.720 Well, John, I appreciate you, man.

01:03:38.900 Our conversation, the last one we had in this one just flew by.

01:03:42.180 It goes so quick.

01:03:42.920 Yeah.

01:03:43.300 Always does.

01:03:43.960 The book is called, uh, breakup on purpose, a catalyst for growth.

01:03:47.540 Uh, I'm very excited to get this book into the hands of the guys who listen, because this

01:03:52.660 is something that impacts every single man on the planet.

01:03:55.420 And if he can handle himself a little bit more grace, a little bit more class, I think he

01:03:59.340 comes out on top regardless of where his relationship lands.

01:04:03.260 Yeah, thank you so much.

01:04:04.600 And I created a space called singleonpurpose.life.

01:04:08.740 If you go there, um, it's a community, um, to, to, to do my book club and just, uh, there's

01:04:14.220 zoom groups and other things.

01:04:15.600 Uh, if you're a man who, um, lacks, um, a secure space in your life, uh, you may have

01:04:21.840 the locker room and the boardroom, but you don't have a lot of spaces to create some authentic

01:04:25.600 conversations with other men.

01:04:27.220 Um, check that out.

01:04:29.460 Uh, singleonpurpose.life.

01:04:31.560 Is that what you said?

01:04:32.080 Yep.

01:04:32.720 Awesome.

01:04:33.060 We'll sync that up anywhere else you want the guys to go to connect with you, whether

01:04:36.480 it's social media, obviously pick up a copy of the book, but anything you'd like to share

01:04:39.680 there?

01:04:40.260 No, that's, uh, that's it.

01:04:41.300 Angry, the angry therapist across the board on social.

01:04:43.500 And, uh, thank you for having me in, um, this conversation.

01:04:47.480 Awesome.

01:04:47.960 Thanks, John.

01:04:48.380 I appreciate our conversations.

01:04:49.420 You get me thinking about things differently and I appreciate that.

01:04:51.820 That's valuable to me.

01:04:52.620 Oh, thanks brother.

01:04:53.240 I appreciate it.

01:04:55.700 Gentlemen, Mr.

01:04:56.440 John Kim, uh, his book is called breakup on purpose, a catalyst for growth.

01:05:01.480 I like the book because in it, he goes through a broad array of different types of breakups.

01:05:07.120 And he talks a little bit about the common themes and we address that on the podcast today.

01:05:11.140 So make sure you pick up a copy of his book, especially if you're going through a breakup,

01:05:16.040 separation, uh, or, or a divorce.

01:05:19.040 Unfortunately, I know that happens this time of year.

01:05:20.920 It's pretty common.

01:05:21.700 So, uh, this might be helpful.

01:05:23.620 And even if you're not, it would be a helpful book because you certainly don't want to get there.

01:05:27.100 And there's a lot of insight that will help you, uh, lead your relationship well as a man to keep it from crumbling and eroding and deteriorating.

01:05:35.680 So check it out.

01:05:36.700 Breakup on purpose, a catalyst for growth.

01:05:39.100 And then last thing, make sure that you join us on our iron council preview call.

01:05:44.440 That is Monday, January 6th at 8 PM Eastern, the iron council.com slash preview will allow you to, uh, get registered and join us on that call.

01:05:56.520 So hopefully we'll have as many of you there as possible.

01:05:58.980 And we'll get a large group of you guys banding with us.

01:06:02.040 Again, there's a thousand men in there plus now, and, uh, we would love to have more of you there.

01:06:06.860 So that's the iron council.com slash preview men.

01:06:09.880 Those are your marching orders.

01:06:11.120 I will be back tomorrow for our very first show of 2025.

01:06:16.240 We're doing an ask me anything with my good friend and fellow co-host Kip Sorensen, where I grill him.

01:06:23.140 It's exclusively me asking him questions.

01:06:26.280 So I'm very excited to share the insights that he shared with me with you.

01:06:30.960 All right, guys, that's all I've got.

01:06:32.580 See you tomorrow until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:06:36.920 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:06:42.900 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:06:47.020 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:06:50.160 Thank you.

Order of Man - December 31, 2024

JOHN KIM ｜ How a Man Leads in Relationships

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