Order of Man - JOHN KIM ｜ Solid Self vs. Pseudo Self

00:00:00.000 I've spent a lot of time over the past several weeks really contemplating my performance and

00:00:05.040 how I'm showing up both personally and professionally for my family and friends and

00:00:10.520 for those of you who tune into what we're doing here with Order of Man. It's been a lot of time

00:00:15.260 of self-reflection and as challenging as it can be and has been in the past, it's been very

00:00:20.700 therapeutic and helped me get back on the path I really want to travel. And speaking of therapeutic,

00:00:26.580 my guest today is John Kim, AKA the angry therapist. Today we talk about the differences

00:00:32.620 between liking and loving yourself and which is better to strive for, why we have to be careful

00:00:38.640 of stamping ourselves as failures, how to uncover false beliefs burned into our subconscious,

00:00:44.860 the power of identifying our value systems and how to move away from the quote pseudo self to the

00:00:51.000 solid self. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly

00:00:56.740 chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You

00:01:02.560 are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:10.000 This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself

00:01:15.780 a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler. I'm your host and the founder of

00:01:21.160 the order man podcast and movement. Welcome here. And welcome back. I want to give you some great

00:01:26.300 conversations with incredible men. These are guys who are successful in their respective fields.

00:01:32.180 Therapists like we have today with John Kim, athletes, scholars, New York times, bestselling authors,

00:01:37.820 entrepreneurs, you name it. If these guys have something of value to share, we're bringing in them

00:01:42.460 on the podcast, extracting their wisdom and information, and then trying to give that to you

00:01:49.260 so that you and I and everybody else tuned in can become better men. Isn't that what we want? We all

00:01:54.640 want to become better men. And, uh, all of us fall short from time to time. Uh, this is a podcast that

00:02:01.220 has helped not only a lot of guys who reach out and message me every day. It also helps me. I feel

00:02:06.680 like I'm the biggest beneficiary and recipient of what we're doing. And Lord knows I have a long

00:02:11.920 way to go as well. So that's what we're all about here. So if you're just tuning in for the first

00:02:16.220 time, welcome, like I said, very glad you're here. We're going to get into it in just a minute.

00:02:20.640 Before I do want to let you know that we've got our merchandise store over at store.orderofman.com

00:02:27.200 store.orderofman.com. And we've got hats, shirts, wallets, our bestselling battle planners,

00:02:35.600 uh, decals. We've got a lot over there and it's a great way to support the movement.

00:02:40.260 And I don't have to advertise a bunch of other people or other products that I don't like or

00:02:46.040 don't use like a lot of these podcasts will do, but that I can just share with you something that

00:02:51.260 we wholeheartedly believe in. And I'm seeing more and more decals on vehicles and shirts and hats

00:02:58.000 around just as I'm out and about. And, uh, it's very cool. It's very cool. Great way to support what

00:03:02.300 we're doing. And it is greatly appreciated store.orderofman.com. Uh, with that said, guys,

00:03:07.320 let me introduce you to my guest, John Kim. Uh, he's been somebody I've been following for quite

00:03:11.960 some time. And I can tell you that his messages and his podcast have been instrumental in helping

00:03:17.840 me on my own self-development journey. As I said, his name is John Kim. A lot of you guys may know

00:03:22.340 him as the angry therapist online. Uh, he's a licensed therapist. He's a life coach. He's

00:03:27.420 the co-founder of tat lab and Lumia coaching training. Uh, he's also the bestselling author of

00:03:32.580 several books, including his latest book. That's coming out very soon titled. It's not me. It's

00:03:37.040 you break the blame cycle relationship better. Uh, John's personal path has led him to become

00:03:43.360 frankly, a pioneer. We talk about it, a pioneer in the field of self-help and helping others cut

00:03:48.600 through all the BS. You're going to hear a lot about that today. Uh, this one kind of felt like

00:03:53.440 a bit of my own personal therapy session. And I know you're going to get a ton out of this one

00:03:58.540 to a little bit different tempo and pace than we've done in the past, but I know, I know you're

00:04:02.800 going to get a lot out of this. Enjoy. John, what's up, man? Great to see you. And thanks for

00:04:07.560 joining me on the podcast. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Hey, look, look, look how bland my

00:04:12.220 background is and look out. I know you got to do something about that. I don't know. I think it's

00:04:16.380 personalities. You know, you got maybe you, you don't want to be cluttered on purpose and you,

00:04:21.100 you, you want to have it, you know, organized. I don't, I don't mind a little structured chaos

00:04:25.680 here and there. So it might, it might just be a personality thing. I don't know.

00:04:29.400 Yeah. I'll take that, man. This is, I want to be like water as Bruce Lee says,

00:04:32.860 just be exactly a blank canvas. That's right. See, we can paint it however we want. So we'll

00:04:39.080 paint it in a positive light. Hey, I do have to ask one of the first questions I wanted to lead off

00:04:43.380 today is, is you're the self-proclaimed angry therapist. And I got it. I mean, it's a bit of

00:04:47.680 an oxymoron, right? That you're angry, but also a licensed therapist. And I'm very curious about the,

00:04:53.480 the spin on that and what your thoughts are there. Yeah. You know, I used to be angry. And

00:04:59.140 after my divorce, when I was 35, had no money, no friends, had nothing, no sense of self.

00:05:06.780 And so I started a blog on Tumblr back in the Tumblr days. And I called it the angry therapist.

00:05:13.060 I just thought it was funny that a therapist was angry. I was in therapy school. And later I realized

00:05:18.440 it was my way of saying that I'm human because I started to work in a more casual over clinical

00:05:24.480 ways. I started to work in unconventional ways. I would meet my clients at the CrossFit box. I'd

00:05:29.520 take my motorcycle and meet them at the coffee shop. And so I'm not angry anymore, but yeah,

00:05:35.400 I was unhappy. And so that led to a lot of anger. And now I look at it as the angry therapist.

00:05:43.960 Just, it's okay to have feelings as a therapist. Yeah. That's interesting. I was curious,

00:05:51.500 you know, you talk about your divorce and I'm sure you've had ups and downs throughout your life,

00:05:55.400 personal, professional. Did you feel, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll ask it this way.

00:06:01.420 How did you feel about becoming a therapist, but struggling in your personal relationship?

00:06:09.120 For example, it sounded like those, that those times overlapped. Is that right?

00:06:12.880 Yeah. Yeah. Going to therapy school was my therapy and it was all, it was the beginning of my hero's

00:06:22.940 journey of finally looking inward, you know, working on tools and having any kind of self-awareness.

00:06:29.860 I was mostly a walking reaction in my twenties and half of my thirties.

00:06:34.240 Hmm. What, what, what is it that you were reacting to?

00:06:40.300 Um, any kind of resistance. So, uh, I, I, I think that, um, one of the things that divides,

00:06:48.660 uh, uh, men from boys is, uh, men have the ability to respond and, and, and I think boys react.

00:06:55.740 And so for most of my life, I just reacted and our reactions come from, um, you know, uh, things

00:07:02.740 that activate us and, uh, not having the ability to put that emotional speed bump there and think

00:07:08.340 about how, what you say, what you do, your energy is going to affect the other person. Uh, so, so in a

00:07:14.780 way, just, uh, going through the world, you know, throwing chairs, steamrolling, that was me.

00:07:20.220 Yeah. I mean, that sounds familiar. I'm very much the same way in my life. And even now,

00:07:25.960 you know, there's things that I get upset about things that don't go quote unquote my way or

00:07:31.580 things that I've realized are beyond my control that I really try to wrestle and struggle with

00:07:37.840 and try to control at the expense, frankly, of other people, the people that are closest to me.

00:07:42.860 Yeah. And I think that people mistake growth for like this permanent thing. And when you get to a

00:07:48.040 certain place or you acquire tools, as they say, or quote unquote, do the work that you don't snap

00:07:52.880 back and that's not true, man, as humans, we always snap back, you know, uh, just that snapping

00:07:58.720 that snapping, um, it, that it's less or, you know, or it's less powerful. So yeah, I struggle with

00:08:04.420 the same these days. I, you know, can be impatient and, um, fast to anger and, and all that stuff.

00:08:12.140 When you were going to therapy school and then also dealing with relational and personal

00:08:17.340 issues, did you have any sense or, or thought of, you know, maybe this isn't the route I'm supposed

00:08:24.520 to be, I, I, or, or imposter syndrome or anything like that, or were you completely open to the idea

00:08:32.580 that you could learn and grow and develop? And there wasn't that, that sense of faking it, if you

00:08:38.580 will. Yeah. I mean, I still have an imposter syndrome. I've written, you know, five or six books

00:08:45.540 and probably have done North of, uh, 10,000 sessions. And I still wonder if I'm making

00:08:51.680 a dent. Um, but, uh, yes, I, um, it took me six years. It took me six years to, um, pedal

00:09:04.500 the bike to have, uh, some kind of confidence and to really feel like I'm getting out of my

00:09:10.380 own way. And I'm now a catalyst to other people. And, uh, those six years were, man,

00:09:15.860 they were lonely. A lot of me by myself journaling, um, taking in content, writing, writing, I've

00:09:24.100 written, you know, maybe 5,000 plus blog posts, uh, documenting my story, uh, spending, you

00:09:29.800 know, time taking myself out to dinners and, uh, um, on my motorcycle, hugging canyons in

00:09:35.760 Malibu. And then also, uh, fitness was a big part of my life. You know, I got into CrossFit

00:09:40.500 like 12 years ago when they were flipping, um, heavy tires and back alleyways and it felt

00:09:45.120 kind of like fight club. So, um, but, but, but just, just having smart feet and going to

00:09:50.140 class and sweating, uh, leaving, you know, sweat angel on the floor and really pushing

00:09:55.580 myself probably more, uh, harder than I ever have in my life. That was a new experience.

00:09:59.760 And that I was very curious about that. So that was a really good structure for me. Um, so,

00:10:05.400 yeah, I mean, uh, it was a long, uh, journey of, um, asking myself a lot of hard questions

00:10:12.720 and, um, probably the beginning of, of, uh, liking me. I always, I always say that, you

00:10:20.940 know, this whole thing is self-love I think can be a bumper sticker. Um, it's easy to choose

00:10:26.440 to love someone. Well, it's not, I wouldn't say it's easy, but you know, there are people

00:10:30.080 that we love by choice, but don't really like maybe some family members, you know,

00:10:36.680 but, uh, like has to be earned. You, you, you, you can't fake liking someone. Right. And

00:10:43.640 so instead of, um, going through the door of self love, I went through the, in through

00:10:50.180 the door of self, like, do I like myself? Right. And so I kind of building a new relationship

00:10:55.080 with self, man, that was, uh, six years. What, what didn't you like about yourself?

00:11:02.560 And then I actually want to talk about the six years because for myself, not only for

00:11:06.960 the guys who are listening, but for myself, I'm hearing this, I'm like, oh man, this is

00:11:10.120 therapeutic even for me. And these are things that's, that's the beauty of this podcast is

00:11:14.540 I talk with guys like yourself and I'm taking notes. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. Because

00:11:20.220 I'm learning. So I feel a little bit selfish because I'm learning the most from this stuff.

00:11:27.140 Uh, so I want to get into your journey. Cause I know a lot of us are asking, okay, well,

00:11:31.060 how do we get on this path to liking ourself versus loving ourself? But let's start from

00:11:35.960 the beginning. What didn't you like about yourself before you went on this path?

00:11:41.680 Um, I stamped myself as a failed screenwriter, uh, cause I went to film school and I started,

00:11:46.940 uh, a career in screenwriting in my early twenties got represented, you know, sold, sold one or two

00:11:52.740 things, but I never w I never, uh, was able to make it into a career. So I thought I was a failed

00:11:58.180 writer. So I didn't like that about myself that I failed at something. Um, my penis size growing up

00:12:05.340 in locker. Are you serious? That was a big issue for sure. For sure. Yeah. I mean, um, growing up in

00:12:11.100 locker rooms, being exposed to, um, you know, images at like age 12, right. My, my parents came

00:12:17.860 to this country with very little money, so they were always working. And, uh, I was just kind of

00:12:23.240 left to, I was just, you know, pop culture is what raised me. So, um, and back in those days,

00:12:29.500 in the eighties, you had to know someone to get porn. It wasn't like now and, uh, you know,

00:12:36.140 magazines and stuff. Uh, and then, so that, or steal them from the gas station, which is what we did

00:12:40.700 when we were kids. Right. Or like someone's, someone's, someone's a parent, dad's, you know,

00:12:45.240 dad's collection. Yeah. This family stash. Right. And then that, that one image that you are able

00:12:50.580 to rip out of the mag, uh, the magazine you carry in your back pocket until it's so faded that you

00:12:54.600 doesn't even look like an image. But anyway, um, yeah. So like from that to, you know, locker rooms

00:13:00.200 and then having kind of a, um, um, distortion and, you know, um, comparing yourself to men with baby

00:13:05.520 arms and stuff like that, you know, defining my value as a man based, um, on, on my, um, penis size.

00:13:15.140 Right. So didn't, didn't like that. I didn't like the fact that I was broke, you know, um, starting

00:13:21.420 all over at 35. Uh, I also had never done a squat. So I was the, the dude with the skinny, I look like

00:13:28.160 a pigeon. Okay. Skinny legs. And then just like, I just would big arms and chest. Okay. Right. Um,

00:13:36.140 so yeah, didn't like body. Didn't like, uh, the fact that I was broke. Didn't like the fact that I

00:13:41.440 was a failed writer. Interesting. Yeah. Started there. Did you, when, could you six years ago when

00:13:48.560 you were doing that, could you articulate what it was or has it taken a lot of time to figure out

00:13:53.320 what you didn't like about yourself? Or did you already know, like, this is what I don't like about

00:13:57.040 myself. This is what I, not much we can do about penis size necessarily, but legs. Sure. We can

00:14:01.400 work on that wealth. Sure. We can work on that. Did you know that? Or did you have to discover

00:14:05.920 that through a process? No, it was discovery. Okay. Yeah. It was, um, um, sitting, I mean discovery,

00:14:13.280 but also, you know, honest conversations, you know, what, what is it? Uh, it was looking in the mirror.

00:14:17.220 I mean, literally, but also, you know, kind of figuratively looking at oneself, um, inner journey,

00:14:24.000 behavior patterns, you know, um, who are you? What do you bring to the table in any relationship?

00:14:31.560 Like these kinds of hard questions. Right. And really trying to be honest with myself and, um,

00:14:37.040 thought, fuck, I'm lacking, I'm lacking and I want to be better. I want to be different.

00:14:41.360 And that was my, uh, fuel. Yeah. Taking ownership, you know?

00:14:47.880 Right. Right. I think it could have very easily gone the other route in that you could have been

00:14:53.400 destructive with it maybe. Oh yeah. Or you could have, you could have said, well, you know, I don't

00:14:57.960 have the wealth and that's because all the other guys have the money and the rich get richer and the

00:15:02.160 poor get poorer that are taking advantage. Like you could turn those into negative thoughts. So was it

00:15:07.120 going to therapy school that made you have a positive framework or reference for it? Or what was it

00:15:12.680 that spun you in the right direction? And I gotta be honest, cause I have addiction in my blood.

00:15:16.500 Um, if I actually had money, I wouldn't have been able to handle it. I would have been, you know,

00:15:21.840 the douchebag in the Ferrari and, uh, you know, I would have been self-destructive for sure. I, um,

00:15:28.440 am, uh, impulsive and, you know, uh, I, I fall into the extremes category. I could have a lot of

00:15:35.320 addictive behavior. Um, so it's glad it was, it was, uh, the universe stripping me of, um,

00:15:42.260 relationships and money was my treatment. It was what was prescribed for me. And if that,

00:15:48.540 if that didn't happen, meaning if I had money and, you know, a crazy social life and lots of women and

00:15:55.260 all that, I would have definitely, uh, I wouldn't have went on this kind of character arc. I would

00:15:59.860 have went the other way for sure. Right. So if you had that baby arm, it could have very easily,

00:16:04.760 went very easily, went the other way is what you're saying. I would be in a gutter in Vegas

00:16:09.600 somewhere half alive. Oh man. Well, also I fought, you know, at 49 after being with, um, in, uh, in a

00:16:18.380 lot of, uh, or, you know, uh, many relationships and learning that, uh, women actually don't like

00:16:23.100 baby arms is, uh, has been good, good information. Uh, you, you use the phrase, uh, it was what was

00:16:31.360 prescribed for me. I can't remember what, what term you used, whether it was, oh, you said the

00:16:37.100 universe, I believe is what you said. Yes. The universe is, uh, do you believe in God or a higher

00:16:42.520 power or what does that look like? Uh, yeah, I believe in, uh, something greater for sure. Um,

00:16:48.140 I believe in God. Um, I don't have a religion. Um, when I was married, I was Christian, but I think

00:16:54.720 for her, not for me. So there was a falseness to it. Um, you know, we, we went to church and stuff,

00:17:00.820 but, uh, and I, uh, tried to be present and, um, at moments felt connected, but, um, I was doing it

00:17:07.960 more. If I was to be honest, I was doing it more for her, right. To, um, be a quote unquote good

00:17:12.860 husband. Um, so today I definitely believe in things is greater than self. I just don't,

00:17:19.560 don't know what that is as far as like, you know, if it's Jesus or someone specific, specific.

00:17:25.520 Right. Yeah, that's fair. I'm, I'm always very curious. It's interesting. I haven't talked with

00:17:30.920 a whole lot of people who don't believe there's something higher, whether that's the universe,

00:17:35.740 which is the term you just used or, or mother earth or who knows? I mean, there's so many

00:17:43.540 different names for it, but I, I see it as God personally. And it's always interesting to me

00:17:51.020 that we're taught even, even in a lot of ways, atheists that I've talked with believe in something

00:17:55.340 higher than themselves. And we're all talking about the same kind of thing. We've, we're just

00:18:00.140 putting a different label on it. Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. How has that helped you

00:18:04.800 thinking of, or believing in something greater than, than self? I'm assuming that has been

00:18:10.040 a game changer. No, no, it has. Absolutely. You know, I'll be frank over the last couple of years,

00:18:17.300 uh, we I I've lost my way spiritually a little bit. Uh, and part of that is because of the reaction

00:18:25.540 to COVID and how that affected church attendance and, you know, not to make excuses. I certainly

00:18:30.360 could have been more spiritual throughout that time regardless, but over the past several weeks

00:18:37.700 and months, I've really tried to get back in touch with this. And for me, knowing that I'm not alone

00:18:44.520 is helpful. Uh, also knowing that there is some author of this experience. Yeah. That,

00:18:54.180 that actually is deeply vested in making sure that we are fulfilled. And, and I see that through growth,

00:19:02.460 not through just ignorance and bliss, but through growth, which is painful, which I've,

00:19:08.120 I've experienced and I continue to experience. Uh, and then knowing that I have a reason for being

00:19:14.340 here, which is to serve people. And it's not about, I'm an aunt. Like I, I believe that I'm divine

00:19:21.260 and that people are you, me, everybody listening are divine, but also I'm just, I'm an aunt in the

00:19:27.680 grand scheme of things. And I'm not as important as I tend to believe I am, but I can be a tool or

00:19:34.560 an instrument to help serve other people who might be experiencing hardship. Yeah. And I think that's

00:19:40.040 where we get our superpower. You know, that's where for me, I tell people that I was able to turn my,

00:19:45.260 my bib into a cape by, by flipping it around a small cape, but, um, the, the bib was, you know,

00:19:52.760 um, before therapy and, you know, the walking reaction, the, um, the child. And then, um, once I

00:20:00.600 started to, to go on the self-development journey, being able to turn that bib around by getting out of

00:20:06.860 my own way, by believing in something greater, by being a catalyst, a conduit. Um, I believe in the

00:20:14.020 power of the collision. And then once you do that, suddenly, um, you have 92 octane fuel, man,

00:20:21.780 suddenly you have passion because it's no longer about you, you know? And I think that's kind of

00:20:26.840 the tipping point when we make things about us, we can easily default to the victim mode and, uh,

00:20:32.980 have that cape, you know, throwing peas at the wall, complaining. Um, but when we're able to get out

00:20:38.020 of that and start to believe, um, it's not about us and that we need to own our own shit and we're

00:20:43.780 here to, like you said, serve and be a catalyst to other people, man, now you're, now, now you're

00:20:49.980 fearless, you know? Right. Right. Do you mind if I ask you talked about, is it six years ago that you

00:20:57.880 went through your, your divorce or, or what was the timeline? It's like, it was like 12, 12,

00:21:02.420 you're like 2010 ish. It's like 12 years ago. So what, what were the issues that you were

00:21:07.240 experiencing? I bring that up because so many people are struggling with that currently separations,

00:21:12.120 looming divorces. What, what was it that was going on within the relationship that maybe you've learned

00:21:17.000 now to improve upon? Yeah, it wasn't, uh, people doing anything wrong. Uh, it was, uh, met her at an

00:21:24.080 early age and it was, um, when I first met her, it was, you know, two kids in LA and it was very

00:21:30.880 kind of, uh, romantic and enmeshed. And, you know, I didn't know that it was, that it was very

00:21:34.900 codependent. Um, and then, uh, the dynamics changed. I became the husband who was, uh, you know,

00:21:43.660 cleaning up dog poop and washing the dishes and down on myself because I couldn't sell a screenplay

00:21:48.780 and, uh, she was thriving. And I think, um, instead of, uh, supporting and championing that I became

00:21:57.200 kind of controlling and jealous and, um, felt like the kid that got held back. And I went from her

00:22:04.260 mouth to her nipple. I think, uh, the dynamic change where I became more like her son than her

00:22:10.900 partner. Interesting. Over time. Right. So over, over the five years. And, um, of course that's not

00:22:17.300 attractive. And, and yeah, we're just two young kids who got married too fast, uh, like many people,

00:22:22.520 uh, with no tools. And, uh, but, but, but that divorce was the biggest catalyst in my life.

00:22:31.100 That was what, um, was my call to adventure. If you want to play the hero's journey, that was the

00:22:36.020 beginning. You, I read something earlier today, as I was thinking about what I wanted to talk with you

00:22:42.440 about, and I can't exactly remember what it was, but you said that relationships end when they're

00:22:49.680 supposed to, I think you said, I, I may have. Yeah. I, um, I, uh, uh, I used the word expired and

00:22:57.360 I, and I, and I, yeah, some people have a problem with this. Um, I was on a Dax Shepard's podcast and

00:23:03.380 I knew he had a problem with this. Uh, we didn't get into it, but, uh, I understand that if you use

00:23:09.260 the word expired, uh, you're minimizing the relationship because it's not milk. Right. Um, but I

00:23:15.320 choose to, to see it that way because it's so much easier to let go. If you believe that a

00:23:21.260 relationship, a marriage, of course, after you've done as much work as you can, uh, to repair it,

00:23:26.960 that, um, it maybe it wasn't meant to go any further, you know? And again, this idea that

00:23:31.300 there's something greater happening, um, because the word breakup or divorce sounds so traumatic and

00:23:37.900 devastating. I just, for me, for me, it was so much easier to accept the fact that something has

00:23:44.880 expired and it wasn't meant to go a day more or, or a day less. Um, but again, you don't want to use

00:23:51.400 that as an excuse to not do any work. That's not what I'm saying, you know? But I think, yeah,

00:23:55.140 that would be my concern is that, is that guys would hear that and think, oh, well, you know,

00:23:59.320 it's hard. So like, I guess it's expired. Well, you know, and it's like the fifth time that you've

00:24:04.860 said that, um, or it's going sour, which relationships do right. Because of life or because

00:24:10.760 of one partner's behavior. And so it goes sour, if we're going to use that metaphor,

00:24:15.800 well, that doesn't mean that it can't be unsoured either, or you can't rebuild either.

00:24:23.000 Right. I mean, as much as I say that, uh, relationships do expire, I also say,

00:24:27.460 uh, love starts when it gets hard.

00:24:30.400 Hmm. How do you mean?

00:24:31.400 You know, um, when you get a wreck, no, I'm just kidding. Uh, when it, when it gets hard,

00:24:35.940 when, when things get hard, like, like, you know, the whole fairy tale, and this is in our,

00:24:40.380 our book, it's not me, it's you. Um, the happily ever ending bullshit, like the happily ever after

00:24:45.420 bullshit or the, the, the, the programming from a lot of, um, you know, uh, Disney cartoons and

00:24:51.880 fairy tales that once you find your quote unquote, the one, then it's, you know, it's, it's, it's two

00:24:56.940 people, um, now that have swam to the Island and it's going to be easy and they're going to watch the

00:25:01.980 sunset. Uh, no, it's like when you actually choose to love someone and you, you know, move in,

00:25:09.400 that's, that's when things get hard. That's when the movie should start. When you see the dirty socks

00:25:13.160 on the floor and the mismatch in, you know, love languages and attachment styles and the conflict.

00:25:18.060 And, you know, that's when shit gets hard. And that's, I think when love starts, uh, not when

00:25:25.200 love should end. So although I'd use the word expired, I also know that, uh, um, this kind of

00:25:32.140 fairytale image of love that we have, uh, is not realistic and that relationships require a shit ton

00:25:38.800 of work. Yeah, no doubt. And, and look, I, we're all smart enough to know what you're talking about.

00:25:44.580 I, it's interesting. There are a lot of people on social media mostly, and they're not dumb people,

00:25:49.840 but I don't know when we log into social media, it's like we, we turn into ignorant fools

00:25:54.040 and, and then we, we actually play dumb to try to get gotcha moments. Like, what do you mean

00:26:00.940 expired? I don't know. That's a bad word. And we all know what you mean. We all know what you're

00:26:05.400 talking about. Maybe I would choose to use a different word, but we all get it. Even if we

00:26:10.140 pretend like we don't. Also, it just helped for me. I'm not saying that you should use it or that

00:26:14.820 is truth. It's just my truth. It's what, what's helped me through the, through the years.

00:26:19.020 What, so you used a phrase that I cringe at a little bit. You said my truth. I personally

00:26:25.000 don't like that phrase because it's just not, it doesn't exist. Like there is no subjective

00:26:32.800 truth. There is only objective truth. Now I will say it's my opinion or it's my perception

00:26:38.380 or it's what I believe, but I don't believe there is a truth that is uniquely mine.

00:26:46.000 Like, like, like you don't own it, like thing. So I see what you're saying. So yeah,

00:26:50.520 it's through my lens. Right. Um, yeah, there's a lot of words these days that, uh, because of

00:26:57.860 the explosion of wellness and of course, yeah, with social media, everyone has a megaphone.

00:27:01.240 So they're, they're all talking, um, that are, that, that are overused and that can rub people

00:27:06.340 the wrong way. And so, yeah, that's, that's totally fair. I never saw it that way.

00:27:11.360 Well, I guess, I guess we're probably not in a disagreement. Then you understand that

00:27:17.000 it's through your lens is what you said, which is, which is what I would agree with that.

00:27:20.360 Yes. This is the way I see it through my lens, my lens, my story. Yes.

00:27:25.940 I just tend to believe, or at least have seen so many people. And I think this is a growing

00:27:30.620 pop culture sentiment that if I feel it, it must be unequivocally true. If I feel victimized

00:27:39.300 or I feel offended, or I feel like somebody has gained at my expense, then that is what happened.

00:27:47.900 That is the truth. That is the reality. And there's no questioning it.

00:27:51.680 So you're saying when someone says my truth, it's dried cement, right? There's no room for

00:27:57.740 conversation. Um, so there's also maybe possibly a lot of judgment. And so that's why that doesn't

00:28:03.740 work for you. So, um, my opinion works better for you. Um, what, what about what is true to me?

00:28:11.020 Is that kind of the same?

00:28:12.500 I think it's the same. What, like, so I'm thinking about this conversation and John,

00:28:17.460 I'm actually really enjoying this conversation, but I love the, I love the, the, the, the,

00:28:22.480 the challenging of it. You know, that's the,

00:28:24.820 yeah, sure.

00:28:26.380 Like you challenging my truth. I love that. That's great.

00:28:29.000 I mean, I'm curious and look, I used to shy away from the, I'm not asking to contend or

00:28:34.040 anything. I'm just curious, you know, I really want to find out.

00:28:37.380 Yeah.

00:28:37.920 And, but someone else could be doing this and they could actually not enjoy this experience with you

00:28:44.600 or me.

00:28:47.220 Right.

00:28:48.020 And so what is, which one is true? Well, well, neither are true. Like there is no true.

00:28:53.240 I guess it's true that I'm enjoying it. That is true.

00:28:56.680 And I guess it might be true that somebody else is not enjoying it, but it's not.

00:29:03.460 Well, here's, here's what, here's what I agree with. Here's what I agree with. And I think what's

00:29:07.140 happening in the world when you said, um, when people start saying it's my truth, there is

00:29:13.820 something about that, especially when it comes to things like, you know, politics or things that

00:29:18.760 are controversial where, um, there's no movement. It's, it's someone holding something with two

00:29:24.640 hands and saying, this is truth. You should believe in this, you know, or there's like a

00:29:29.480 giant shoot or there's something about my truth that doesn't leave a lot of room for, um, let me

00:29:36.580 see it your way or let me, you know, um, flip it on its head or let me be open and let me be curious.

00:29:42.740 So that I agree with, I actually, I've never, until today, I've never really looked at it that

00:29:47.440 way. Um, but I definitely have less problem with my truth or this is my truth, uh, than you do,

00:29:54.980 but it's because I never looked at it that way, but I could see that for sure.

00:29:58.780 Do, do you run into this? Cause you're still, you're still practicing your therapy, correct?

00:30:04.300 Yes. Uh, I, I definitely, um, I, I don't have time to see, uh, I don't have a full practice

00:30:09.420 anymore. I'm doing a lot of books and immediate stuff, but, um, I've got a handful of clients

00:30:15.320 and, uh, yeah, I still see people. I, the reason I ask is I'm wondering if you see a lot of people,

00:30:22.260 men predominantly, because I, I, you know, we work with men who are so stuck in their perception,

00:30:31.120 their current reality that they do refuse. I don't care about the semantics of my truth or my,

00:30:37.420 I don't care about that. Right. Right. Right. What I, what I do, what's underneath that's the,

00:30:41.540 that's the point, right? It's like, do, do you see people who are so stuck and stubborn in their

00:30:46.660 ways or, or what somebody else might be doing to them that they just refuse to get better? And then

00:30:53.560 how does somebody who might be trapped in that concrete, like you said earlier, begin to break

00:30:58.940 themselves free from it. So they can actually move forward, maybe make amends for some things

00:31:03.300 they've done and improve their situation. Yeah. Usually it takes them losing something

00:31:08.920 that is very valuable to them, like a marriage or custody or, you know, you, and this is why,

00:31:15.280 you know, addiction is so hard. Um, you, I feel like a lot of people, um, who are quote unquote,

00:31:21.760 set in their ways have to break, you know, um, because if they don't, then what, what would force

00:31:30.540 them to change? If they're setting their ways and life is good, what would force them to change?

00:31:35.800 Um, for me, it was a divorce for someone. It may be something else, but it's that, uh, hitting rock

00:31:41.660 bottom as they say, where they're like, okay, I need really need to look at, I've looked at everyone

00:31:46.700 else. And now it's time to look at me. I agree with that. Most people don't get there until

00:31:51.740 they're, they're hitting rock bottom or close to. So I a hundred percent agree with that. I don't

00:31:57.320 like it. I don't like the answer because I don't want to hit rock bottom. I've hit rock bottom.

00:32:02.400 I will. I'm sure in my life hit rock bottom again. Yeah. And there's other people that I deal with

00:32:07.600 every day who are either there or very close. So I don't like the answer. I agree with it.

00:32:12.540 So what, what can we do in our lives, whether that's look for some red flags or

00:32:19.960 be aware of some trends or practices that we can implement that will keep us from eventually

00:32:26.540 hitting rock bottom. Cause we're all smart enough to know that something is always going to be looming

00:32:31.480 in the shadows, just waiting to pounce on you. How do we keep it there and not allow it to attack

00:32:37.620 our lives? I always bring it back to self connection to self or disconnection. So I use

00:32:45.480 tattoos as a dog-eared pages of my stories and reminders. And after my divorce, I got obsessed with

00:32:53.620 this concept of pseudo for solid. So I got pseudo on one arm, solid on the other. And your solid self

00:32:59.380 is what they call your authentic self. Your pseudo self is what I was living in. Someone that exchanges

00:33:07.320 his truth from membership, right? Especially growing up in LA, chasing shiny things. I had no sense of

00:33:13.160 self. I just wanted approval, validation, attention. And I also paused my life hoping that if I got the,

00:33:23.420 you know, three picture deal and the fast cars and the beautiful women, then I would be happy.

00:33:29.180 But because those things never came, um, I was miserable. One of my books is called I used to be

00:33:34.940 a miserable fuck. And it's a true story because I was miserable. And, uh, and, uh, and so I started

00:33:40.460 with, okay, if I pull from my solid self across the board in, in all areas of my life, what would that

00:33:47.340 look like? Or I would ask myself in my pseudo, like in this moon, like just sitting with you, Ryan,

00:33:53.020 am I pseudo, am I, um, seeking some kind of validation approval? Um, am I pulling from a

00:33:58.940 place that is false or am I being honest and truthful? So when, when I said, um, something

00:34:04.780 about my, Oh, uh, it's my truth. And you're like, you know what? I don't like that. That was your

00:34:09.100 solid self, right? Cause if you were pseudo, you would be, you would have just let, let that go.

00:34:13.820 And right. But you're like, Hey, you know, that's something that I kind of, I question and I don't,

00:34:17.500 don't like. And so that's your solid self, right? That is the potent version of, of you.

00:34:23.420 Uh, so after my divorce, I started to pull from my solid self. And a lot of people don't like that

00:34:27.820 side of you cause they're not used to it. You know, that's the side that's gonna, um, speak

00:34:31.900 up. That's gonna challenge them, challenge them. Uh, a lot of times we're in lopsided friendships

00:34:38.060 where our pseudo side is what holds that friendship together, right? At the family dinner table,

00:34:43.580 we, we don't want to rock the boat or, you know, if mom has a problem with dad, they come to us and

00:34:47.820 we become the, uh, kickstand I call ice day or the emotional punching bag. Um, so being solid means

00:34:53.500 to maybe send someone the voicemail or maybe tell someone, Hey, you know what? I'm always early and

00:34:59.180 you're not, can you be there on time this time or let's not meet or, you know, whatever it is,

00:35:04.060 right. Or it could be like, right. I'm saying, Hey, this is, I want to be touched or whatever.

00:35:08.220 Um, that's a practice. And I think that is hard to do. Uh, so I started there. So when you asked me,

00:35:14.700 um, how can we prevent us hitting rock bottom, going back to your relationship with yourself,

00:35:20.220 the question is what areas of your life are you pulling from your suit of self? You know,

00:35:24.780 uh, maybe at work because your boss has an iron fist or maybe in your relationship,

00:35:29.740 or, you know, are you doing life around people or add people instead of with people?

00:35:35.020 How can you pull more from your solid, maybe in your podcast, right? If you create content,

00:35:40.220 are you being an authentic, um, honest person, or are you doing things for likes,

00:35:47.340 views, listens, you know, all of that. So listen, we're all human. I was more pseudo than solid.

00:35:53.580 And I know that I was at a lower frequency because of that. And then after my divorce,

00:35:58.140 because I had nothing, I had nothing to lose. I started to pull from my solid self. And when you

00:36:03.020 do that for a long time, that's the road to start liking you. You know, that's where you're like,

00:36:08.700 Oh, I accept that. Um, I'm a grower or I accept that I got a perm or I accept, you know, and I like

00:36:16.700 that about myself and I'm okay with it. You sit with yourself and you're, Hey, these are my opinions.

00:36:21.020 This is who I am. And if you don't like it, it's okay. It probably has more to do with your story than

00:36:24.860 mine. Um, but yeah, it took a, I mean, I'm still on that journey. Right. So

00:36:29.660 man, just a quick pause here on the conversation. We'll get right back to it in a minute. You've

00:36:35.180 heard me talk quite a bit about, uh, that we're really working to build out a series of emails

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00:37:40.940 order a man.com get signed up, do that right after the show for now. We'll get back to it with John.

00:37:46.940 I think a lot of us are, and obviously there's, I'm sure you're well aware of the concept of the nice

00:37:52.340 guy, right? Yes. Yes. And I, I think you're touching on that a little bit. A lot of people

00:37:57.420 will be approval seeker. That's right. Yeah. The, the, the, the guy that gives you the dead

00:38:02.420 fish handshake doesn't look you in the eye. Huge pet peeve of mine. Yeah. Yeah. That has no opinion.

00:38:09.180 Where do you want to go for lunch? Oh, wherever you want to go for lunch. No, no. What do you,

00:38:11.660 what do you feel like? Whatever you feel like. Yeah. It's a, it's, it's, you don't, you don't like

00:38:16.920 to be around those kinds of people, but it is very easy, I think. And I've been there

00:38:21.940 for a lot of men to fall into that trap. I mean, again, to go back to what I said earlier,

00:38:26.300 when I was questioning some of the terminology we're using, you know, five years ago, I may

00:38:31.540 have said, Oh, cool. And just kind of let it blown over because I didn't want to ruffle

00:38:36.480 those feathers. And I'll tell you actually sharing it in a respectful way. You don't have to be a jerk

00:38:42.920 about it. Right. Right. You should definitely pull from kindness. I'm, I'm just wondering how

00:38:48.560 often you see guys who are these pseudo self kind of people who want to be solid self, how often they

00:38:56.700 go to the other end of the extreme and turn into jerks or become arrogant or selfish. And that becomes

00:39:05.120 a problem. Yeah. Uh, proving something, uh, posturing, right. That kind of stuff. Right. Correct. Yeah.

00:39:12.220 Yeah. Is that something that you see or deal with or, or have seen men step into

00:39:18.060 people, uh, men who go from, Oh, you mean men trying thinking that they're in their solid self,

00:39:24.180 but they're actually pseudo that kind of thing. Uh, thinking that they want to be solid. Like

00:39:30.660 they want even that terminology, like they want to be the fixture. They want to be tough. They want to

00:39:35.540 be, but yet taking it so far that they're actually alienating other people or dominating

00:39:42.020 other people or, or saying, you know, if, if they don't care what I think, I don't give an F about

00:39:48.560 any of that kind of stuff. And it just becomes so extreme that it's harmful to them as well.

00:39:54.360 Yeah. That reminds me of the, my truth thing.

00:39:57.380 Yeah, no, for sure. If they don't like it, that's their problem.

00:40:00.860 Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. So, um, your solid self requires an inward journey. It requires

00:40:07.580 vulnerability. It requires, uh, a transparency. And so if someone is, is, is, is saying, um,

00:40:14.700 um, pulling from judgment or saying it's my way and I'm right, you're wrong. Uh, to me,

00:40:19.720 that's a shield to me. That's the opposite, right? To me, that's in a way, a hiding,

00:40:24.200 not truly showing yourself or being open. It's just being narrow.

00:40:27.960 Got it. Yeah. One of the things I've started to do over the past two and a half weeks is I've done

00:40:34.800 a lot more reflection over the past several weeks and I've carved out time daily to do that. I was

00:40:42.440 looking at my watch that tracks my steps, like most gadgets do these days. And I'm looking at my step

00:40:48.800 count. It's, it's through the roof, you know, and, and that's because I'll go walk and I'll just

00:40:52.760 think and contemplate and, and, and go through my thoughts. Uh, and then the other thing I've

00:40:58.400 started to do is I write a lot more. I write in my journal. I write down those thoughts. I've been

00:41:05.560 taking a lot more notes. I mean, you can see I'm taking notes here. I'm trying to process everything

00:41:11.200 that's coming into me, good, bad, and different. Yeah. Uh, and even writing letters that may or may

00:41:17.160 not get sent letters to people that I love letters even to myself. Um, that's like, um,

00:41:24.840 that's straight up therapy exercises. Your therapist probably, uh, I mean, a lot of therapists

00:41:29.680 recommend that those kinds of exercises. That's great. One, um, one, one person did recommend to

00:41:35.320 me to write a life story about where, what my, what my past was, what my, and the challenges and why I am

00:41:42.460 the way I am based on my past, good and good and bad. Um, where I am today and what I like and don't

00:41:48.960 like about myself. And then into the future, what kind of person would I like to be? And what does

00:41:53.600 that look like? Those, those exercises have been amazing. Amazing. Very cathartic for me.

00:41:59.300 Also, there's something about writing. What, what do you get out of? Cause a lot of people would say,

00:42:03.220 well, why are you writing it? Why don't you just think about it? But what, what, what is the value

00:42:06.800 for you in actually writing this stuff down? Well, I think what happens to me is I get into this

00:42:13.300 circular logic where I might think something and then I'll try to rationalize it or justify it or

00:42:21.880 excuse it away. And then I do it. And then I, maybe I feel guilty about not following through

00:42:27.260 on something. And then, then I, I'm, I have more that I need to deal with, but then I rationalize that

00:42:32.480 like, I'm busy, you know? So it's like this circular logic in my head and writing for me

00:42:37.440 is more linear. So I actually have to take it through to resolution. Here's, here's what I'm

00:42:43.740 dealing with. Uh, here's my part to play in what's going on. And then here's what I'm going to do

00:42:52.760 in order to resolve this. And if I do, here's how I'm going to feel about it. And so for me,

00:43:00.060 it's very linear, it sorts it out for you. All the, it does all the crazy thoughts and distorted

00:43:06.240 thinking. Uh, yeah, that's exactly. It creates distance and by creating distance, it creates

00:43:13.400 clarity. That's what writing is for me. And I didn't know this at the time, but when I started

00:43:17.960 a blog on Tumblr, I just did it because I had a lot of time on my hands and I had a broken heart and

00:43:22.780 no friends. Like what else am I going to do? But I realized that was my treatment, uh, every day

00:43:28.340 writing journal. I just hit post after my, my writing, but, um, I was doing a lot of what you

00:43:33.560 were doing, uh, walking the streets of, uh, Cape town, uh, listening to like Wayne Dyer with

00:43:39.460 a styrofoam coffee and doing a lot of reflecting and a shit ton of blogging, uh, journaling. And

00:43:46.080 then just, you know, I would hit post, but I also thought no one would read it. Um, but then

00:43:49.920 people started reading it and then that was, that was my trajectory started from there.

00:43:55.200 Yeah. One other thing that writing has done for me, as you were saying that is I'll write

00:44:01.100 something that in my head, I think, well, that sounds good. You know, here, here's my

00:44:06.260 behavior, but here's why I did it. Or here's what I'm thinking about it. And like, that sounds

00:44:11.380 pretty good in my head. And then I write it down and it's like, you're an idiot. I don't

00:44:18.840 know what it is about taking it from your mind and putting it onto paper, but maybe it makes

00:44:23.120 it more true or makes it more objective where you read it and you're like, Whoa, that's

00:44:28.040 what I think that sounds stupid. Right. You know, I think, um, but I could also go the

00:44:33.860 other way where you, you, you have something in your head and you might think it's a dumb

00:44:37.100 idea. Then you write it down. You're like, Oh, there's actually something there.

00:44:40.780 I don't know if I've ever, I don't know if I've ever experienced that. Usually, usually

00:44:45.340 I, I have ideas. I'm like, that's dumb. And then I write it down or I think it's a great

00:44:49.740 idea. And then I write it down or try to put pen to paper. I'm like, no, that's, that's

00:44:53.180 actually not a good idea. I don't know if I've ever experienced the other way around.

00:44:57.280 Well, I mean, that process is good too, because it acts as a safety net or it acts as a checks

00:45:02.960 and balances. So you don't spend a lot of wasted energy trying to execute something that you have

00:45:07.120 in your head. Well, the problem is I usually don't do that. And if I have an idea, I'm like,

00:45:11.600 just go, just go, just figure it out along the way. Yeah. Hey, no, no, but I got to say,

00:45:15.940 you know, there's value in that. So I, I actually do that. I drive the, I build the bus while I'm

00:45:20.800 driving it. And I used to think that was a defect of mine. I used to think like, you know, you don't

00:45:25.400 think things out, you, you, you get all excited about some stupid idea and then you just try to

00:45:30.280 execute. And now I'm realizing, especially today where there's no wall and you could kind of create

00:45:35.740 wherever you want. Now that I realize it's a superpower, most people have a lot of ideas and they do

00:45:41.280 nothing. And so true, just that's the greater risk to me. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I think that's

00:45:47.380 what more people deal with. Yeah. At least if you're executing, you're, you're, you're trying

00:45:52.240 to conceive, you know, you're trying to give birth to your ideas and there's tremendous value in that,

00:45:56.600 whether that idea is successful or not, or, you know, that's a whole different thing. But,

00:46:00.140 and then, you know, who's to say what success means? What does it mean to you when you think

00:46:05.660 about being successful? Yeah. In my twenties success meant, um, uh, you know, uh, the predictable

00:46:11.280 so, uh, being a gearhead, uh, fast cars and lots of money and, you know, fancy, fancy houses,

00:46:17.440 uh, today success, uh, to me is, um, freedom. So freedom in, uh, building a life that's honest

00:46:27.920 to you, working in a way that's honest to you. Um, and also, uh, helping as many people, uh, as you

00:46:35.680 can, like you said, being, uh, of service, um, but doing it in a way that is authentic and in your

00:46:42.080 solid self. Right. So, um, not tap dancing, not living outside in, but inside out. Um, so doing it

00:46:52.780 in a way that is uniquely you, uh, to me, that is successful, man. When I see people out there just

00:46:58.040 really themselves, uh, and, uh, truly themselves and also helping, you know, millions it's, it's a,

00:47:05.920 it's such a beautiful thing, you know? And I feel like, wow, that's that like, it's rare and

00:47:10.840 beautiful. And I feel like that person is successful. Yeah. I think I, I know I certainly

00:47:16.620 have in the past tended to look at those individuals as some sort of mysterious X factor,

00:47:21.120 where I look at a guy like yourself, like, man, that guy's got something figured out. There's

00:47:25.460 something special about him. I don't know what it is. And now I, I tend to believe that I,

00:47:32.280 that it's not mysterious. It's that what you just said, they know what success is.

00:47:38.660 They're stepping into that success for themselves and they're living truly to who they are. And they

00:47:44.040 found something that is more important than themselves. And that, that exudes as confidence,

00:47:48.180 I think, which is what we see and determine as the X factor. It's confidence. It's a fearlessness.

00:47:53.280 It's, uh, uh, purpose driven. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, it's this idea of kind of getting out of

00:48:00.500 your own way. Um, some, there's things happening that we can see there's things happening that are

00:48:06.380 greater than, than ourselves. Uh, yeah, all of that. And, you know, um, I think that's what we're

00:48:11.500 meant to do. A lot of us, most of us just don't get there because of our own, you know, false beliefs

00:48:16.360 and distorted thinking and all that and being, um, you know, in victim mode and all that.

00:48:21.140 Are there, are there some common, um, you said false beliefs. Are there some common false beliefs

00:48:27.040 that you see that people step into that we should be aware of that, that are, that are common,

00:48:32.100 right? That a lot of people fall into. Yes. Uh, I'm not good enough. I'm not lovable. Um,

00:48:38.160 you know, the, the, the, the stuff we started this, uh, podcast with, um, the kind of half joking,

00:48:43.820 but the whole, um, baby arm penis size, if you tie that, if you tie that to your worth,

00:48:48.680 you're going to feel that you are lacking, right? Um, I'm not smart enough. I'm not tall enough.

00:48:55.020 I'm not pretty enough. I'm not, you know, all of that, that the whole, I'm not enough is huge.

00:48:59.340 And that ripples into, uh, relationships because, um, if we feel that we're not enough, then we may

00:49:07.180 overextend or try to compensate to be enough. Or if we feel that we're not lovable, we may sabotage

00:49:13.280 relationships. We may, you know, hide, run, you know, whatever, whatever it's all unique to, uh,

00:49:18.840 to, to every individual in their story. What, what is a healthy way to look at that? Because

00:49:22.980 so I'll take, uh, I I'm not good enough, for example, and they're actually, that actually might

00:49:27.780 be true if you're trying to do something. Uh, so maybe it's to start a successful podcast or

00:49:33.560 another type of business or become a professional athlete. It actually might be true that you are not

00:49:39.680 good enough. So what is it? Is there a healthy way? Yeah. Right. Like, is there a healthy way

00:49:45.980 to look at that and not tie it to your self-worth, but at the same time, use it as fuel to actually

00:49:55.560 try to become good enough at something that's important to you?

00:49:59.140 Yeah. So what's interesting about false beliefs, uh, the buried in our subconscious and we pull

00:50:02.900 from them usually without even knowing it. So if you believe that you are not, let's say you believe

00:50:07.960 you're not lovable, um, you, you're going to, it's going to manifest without you even being aware of

00:50:15.700 it until you make that conscious. And then you are aware that, oh, this is why I'm sabotaging or I'm,

00:50:22.320 you know, um, not being intimate or whatever it is that you're doing. Um, one of my false beliefs,

00:50:26.680 uh, was so in high school, I played football, but I didn't play. I was the bench warmer,

00:50:32.140 the kid with the white uniform and I skated and I breakdanced in the eighties. So I knew I was

00:50:37.020 athletic, but because I was a bench warmer for four years, the false belief that was ingrained in me

00:50:43.100 was I'm not an athlete. Uh, and it's helpful if you take whatever that is kind of like a murky

00:50:48.860 false belief and boil it down to one sentence, right? So I'm not an athlete. That's where I'm

00:50:53.200 pulling from. So when I found CrossFit, uh, many years later and I would go up against athletes

00:50:59.200 because it attracted a lot of athletes. Um, I would stutter, I would be afraid. Um, and it wasn't

00:51:05.360 until I gave myself a new experience because there's nothing more convincing than an experience

00:51:11.240 where I actually tied or beat an athlete. Then I wondered, oh, what else could I do? And then

00:51:17.040 my performance shot up, although nothing changed physically. So it was like a mental block,

00:51:21.980 right? So if you believe that you are unlovable, I think you have to set yourself up for an

00:51:28.960 experience where you drop into your body and you feel loved without condition. Now you don't have

00:51:34.900 to do that with a romantic. You could do that with a friend. You could do that with, you know,

00:51:37.760 any human. Um, but as you give yourself those, those new experiences, you start to dissolve that

00:51:43.560 false belief and believe something different. So what is the trap? Let me interject just real

00:51:49.160 quick because is, is the trap of that. So let's say loving unconditionally, being loved unconditionally

00:51:56.700 because you don't think you're, you're, you're able to be loved, but won't you fall into the trap

00:52:02.480 of seeking other people's approval and love and doing things purely to test if you are lovable

00:52:11.100 or same thing with athletics is, you know, now you're chasing around all these things and you're

00:52:16.540 placing your sense of worth on, no, actually I am athletic because I beat this, this guy over here.

00:52:25.020 Right. I think, um, it's important to untie worth from ability. I know it's really hard to do in our

00:52:30.540 society. Um, but I know for me, so once I start to dissolve, um, me, me not being an athlete,

00:52:39.020 that belief, uh, I, one of the things that did, I start to reframe what it means to be an athlete

00:52:43.660 and maybe it's not about the scoreboard. Maybe being an athlete just means you don't, you know,

00:52:49.440 shave reps or you do it or you go as hard as you can. And that's enough for you. So you start to

00:52:54.780 wrestle with different definitions, you know? And so as far as you being lovable, what does that look

00:52:59.820 like? What is your definition of being lovable? You know, and then you start to, uh, wrestle with it

00:53:04.580 until you come up with a healthier definition, because maybe what you thought being lovable meant

00:53:09.420 someone, um, just giving you a lot of things, or maybe it means being intimate only or, you know,

00:53:16.300 whatever. Right. And so I, I would challenge my definition. Um, I would challenge my definitions

00:53:24.160 on, on any kind of false belief. What, what that means, you know, what success means, what, uh,

00:53:28.680 I've never really, I've never really done that before. Um, I'm, and I just wrote this down here.

00:53:33.880 What, what is lovable for my, for myself, just speaking for myself, like what, what, what do I

00:53:38.660 believe makes me lovable? And I wrote here that I'm capable, which I think is good. I want to be

00:53:45.260 capable. I want to serve other people. Yeah. But what if I come across something that I'm incapable

00:53:50.060 in the current moment of doing, that means I'm not lovable. Right. So that could be a false belief.

00:53:55.600 Well, uh, capable is, um, it's interesting because it's a, it's kind of a dangerous word

00:54:01.920 because, well, it's vague. What does that mean? When you say that I'm capable, what are you capable

00:54:05.660 of? You're capable of what loving someone else, but what else, what, what do you define as capable?

00:54:11.900 Uh, I guess I would say without thinking about it too much capable of, of giving or assisting

00:54:18.840 somebody with what they may need in the moment. So if it's my wife, then it might be financial

00:54:23.440 provision. Uh, if it's my children, it might be my time and attention. Uh, if it's this podcast,

00:54:29.680 it might be securing great guests like yourself and others that actually have something valuable

00:54:35.320 to share with other people. It's, it's for me, capability is defined as giving people something

00:54:41.640 they need that will serve them. Right. So it is also, it feels like an ability.

00:54:46.940 Yeah, for sure. Right. Um, my definition of lovable is someone loving you, uh, whether you are, um,

00:54:57.820 whether you, whether you have that ability or not someone loving Ryan, because, uh, you are Ryan,

00:55:03.660 not because you can give them something or help them with their life or, you know, reach an audience.

00:55:10.020 Um, that's hard for me to wrap my head around because I'm, and I, and I'm trying to be like

00:55:15.420 really frank here. Cause it's good for you. It's good for me. It's good for the guys listening.

00:55:19.480 That's a hard one. We're both trying to be solid. I mean, I'm trying. Yeah, absolutely. I don't want

00:55:25.080 to posture. I appreciate it. It's, it's so hard because I think in my head and again, I'm going

00:55:31.540 back to these beliefs. And so I need to, I need to really flesh this out. Maybe I need to write on this,

00:55:35.060 this particular thing, but if I don't, why would anybody love somebody that doesn't have anything

00:55:42.520 to offer? Yeah. That's so that question, I think many people ask themselves, including myself.

00:55:49.920 And, uh, I think you have more to offer than your capabilities, um, who you are, who you've become

00:55:59.900 yours. So this is the, the self-talk that I, I was engaged in with myself when I had nothing,

00:56:06.220 because I thought, fuck, what am I going to offer? I don't have, um, money. I don't have a lot. What,

00:56:12.180 what can I offer? You know, it was just, I didn't have anything. And so, um, once you start to

00:56:19.900 establish a relationship with yourself, where you actually start to like yourself, not in an arrogant

00:56:24.640 way, but in a kind of a connection way, because, you know, there, there are parts of, of when we're

00:56:30.540 younger that we did really like ourselves, you know? Um, and it may be just little chapters here

00:56:36.020 and there, but, uh, uh, having that connection back to self and your spirit, what can you offer?

00:56:42.440 Then I started thinking, well, you know, I've, um, sat down with people and have really helped them

00:56:47.280 through conversation or through humor or through just being there or having, and I can offer that.

00:56:52.740 I could offer other things. I can offer my story because I've been somewhere and came back.

00:56:57.480 I could offer, you know, opinion I could offer. So there's other things that I could offer

00:57:02.100 that wasn't like, here, I could give you, you know, some kind of service or money or security or,

00:57:10.420 you know, um, those things. And so I just started to stretch definitions like that.

00:57:14.800 And that would be my challenge to you is if you default to, well, what, what value do I have if I

00:57:21.240 can't offer someone anything? Um, I, I would say, well, who are you and what can you offer that

00:57:27.180 isn't, um, tied to an ability, a capability? Yeah. And I thought about someone to love you.

00:57:34.020 Yeah. Yeah. I actually have thought about that. And one of the things that I actually feel like

00:57:40.940 I can offer to other people, whether that's, you know, my wife or my children, friends, colleagues,

00:57:47.160 co-workers, whatever is two things predominantly stick out to me. Number one is dedication.

00:57:53.820 I'm, I am extremely, extremely dedicated to whatever I focus my attention on. And that thing

00:58:00.700 will, it's, it's like written in stone. It just hasn't happened yet. So that's one.

00:58:05.080 Mm-hmm. And the other thing is loyalty. I, I, I believe that I'm one of the most loyal people

00:58:13.220 out there that it would take an act of God and I'm not trying to be blasphemous or, or tempt God at

00:58:19.580 all by any means, but an act of God to break my loyalty to somebody else or something I've committed

00:58:26.500 to. And I can offer that outside of abilities that I have. Right. Those, that's great. Those are

00:58:31.800 great examples. So, and I believe that, cause you're seeing it with such certainty. Those are

00:58:37.000 qualities of Ryan. Those are, that's in your makeup. It's in your, you know, it's, it's also

00:58:41.920 probably part of your value system, what's important to you. So yeah, those are definitely

00:58:45.800 things that you can offer. And so anyone listening, I would actually, I love what you're doing. You're

00:58:50.760 writing this down. I would write down things that you can offer that isn't necessarily attached to

00:58:55.760 an ability or a performance or, you know, or because you know someone or you have money or

00:59:01.380 whatever it is. Um, but what can you offer that is already baked into you because it's who you are,

00:59:07.580 you know, it's a sort of related to your spirit and your soul. Um, and there's only one of you,

00:59:14.100 right? So that offering is valuable. Yeah. There's only one of me in the way that,

00:59:19.700 that each of us can do it right. Other people can be loyal. Other people can be dedicated. Sure. But

00:59:23.720 there's only one way to, for me to do it or one way for you or anybody else to do it. That's a

00:59:28.620 really valuable exercise. I don't, I don't know that I've ever done that because I have wrapped

00:59:32.760 up my sense of worth and pride in providing. And when I say providing, I'm talking about mostly

00:59:41.620 financial, mostly temporal provision. Right. I think a lot of men do. Well, it's easier. A lot

00:59:47.240 of me. Yeah. It's easier. Well, it's tangible. Yeah. It's tangible. I can see it. Right. I can see

00:59:52.260 it. I'm like, okay, I got a hundred thousand, my bank account. And, uh, tomorrow now I have 120,000,

00:59:57.100 my bank account. So I'm better. I'm providing value. Right. Right. Because I have $20,000 more

01:00:02.220 in my account than I did yesterday. I'm better today. Yeah. So I think that's dangerous because

01:00:06.320 what if that 120 goes to 15,000 or minus 10, then what? You're, you're not, then your value has gone

01:00:14.280 down. Then you, then you're less of a person or less valuable or should you be loved less because of

01:00:19.040 that? Uh, yeah. I, yeah. I, I'm not saying yes. I'm answering yes. I'm saying, yeah, that's,

01:00:24.700 that's an interesting thought. Like that's, that's a really interesting thought. I guess I

01:00:29.080 would, I would say that if it did go down, then I, then I would be resolved to say, okay, well,

01:00:34.460 I need to get back up to 120 or, or 200 now. And, and that would set me on the path to taking action,

01:00:40.920 but then I'm just chasing things around. Right. Yeah. And I think that, uh, tying your value and

01:00:47.080 your worth to something external, like your bank account or a fancy car or anything, um, that fluctuates

01:00:54.300 is dangerous because then some days you're going to like yourself or love yourself more, like

01:00:59.240 yourself more, believe that you have more value. And in other days, you're going to feel like you

01:01:02.780 don't, I don't think that's true. You know, I think, uh, that you as a person, as a being, um,

01:01:10.500 your value is consistent and always going up based on your wisdom and, you know, your, how long you are

01:01:17.960 in yourself itself, you know, uh, the by-product of that is, you know, um, the ripple of that is

01:01:24.100 making money or, you know, the other things that you can provide, but I don't, you know,

01:01:28.640 I don't think that's who makes you, you, I don't think that's the, the, like when you were saying

01:01:33.200 that you're loyal and, uh, um, and the other, I forgot the other quality dedicated, dedicated and

01:01:39.340 loyal. Those are very admirable, valuable qualities. Uh, so that I can see, but, um, not the 120K

01:01:46.780 of your bank. I mean, that's great. That's a great ability, but, um, that's not what I would

01:01:51.880 place your value on. Yeah, that makes sense. I like that. I think this exercise is really

01:01:57.260 important. And I, and I would actually just to reiterate, challenge the guys to do this.

01:02:01.100 Like, how do you, how do you define your sense of worth? This is, this actually ties into Victor

01:02:08.520 Frankel's man search for meetings or for me. Yeah. Yeah. Where, you know, everything was

01:02:13.880 take, literally everything except for his life was taken from him. Right. And yet he found a way

01:02:20.940 to have meaning and purpose in what was the most horrific imaginable scenario.

01:02:31.980 Well, and then if you think about Victor Frankel, or if you, you know, knew him, loved him, whatever,

01:02:37.740 what, what did he bring to the table? Because he didn't bring money to the table. He didn't bring,

01:02:42.780 what was his value, but he's of tremendous value because look at his impact, you know,

01:02:49.240 um, his words, his ability to find meaning in, um, what concentration camps and, and just,

01:02:57.280 you know, basically people being tortured, right. He was tortured and, and yet he still found meaning

01:03:02.220 and was able to find joy that being, uh, having that capacity to me is what, what, what's valuable.

01:03:11.560 He just put it on paper and then it, you know, spread that message. Um, because what else did he

01:03:16.640 have to give? It was his story and his opinions and his lenses and his, yeah, his way to reframe.

01:03:23.040 Very interesting stuff, man. I look, I'm looking at the clock. We're already at an hour.

01:03:29.180 Um, it went so fast because we're having a really good conversation. We didn't really talk about

01:03:35.400 your book. I was like, wait, I want to talk about the book too. I've got so many different things to

01:03:41.360 talk about. Yeah. But you know what, if you, if you felt forced to talk about the book, um, again,

01:03:46.040 um, and I, I understand, you know, there, there's, there's, uh, of course that would help book sales

01:03:51.040 and stuff for me, but yeah, I don't want to be of service to you. Of course. Yeah. But then I also

01:03:55.220 wonder if you would be more pseudo, you know what I'm saying? And I also wonder if time would go

01:03:59.720 slower because you know, that this is, yeah, man, I might. Sure. Right. Like, I don't want to talk

01:04:04.660 about that, but I feel obliged to do it. Right. And, um, and so I, I think that this episode would be,

01:04:12.280 it's, it would be more potent if the, if we were both solid and if that included the book,

01:04:18.720 fine. And if it doesn't, that's okay. I mean, we are, um, creating a conversation that is

01:04:25.160 real and meaningful and authentic to each other. And it starts there, right? So if that's not the

01:04:31.460 soil, we could talk about the book for days, but it might just sound like a big commercial.

01:04:36.420 Yeah. That's a good. And I, and frankly, I've done some of those that did sound like a commercial

01:04:41.220 and not just, you know, you know exactly how it goes. Yeah, of course. And to be able to have a

01:04:46.420 connected conversation like this is just, it doesn't happen all the time. So it's really cool

01:04:51.700 to be able to have this type of connection on the conversation, but even still, why don't you tell

01:04:55.800 me about the book? Let the guys know where they can go. Cause a lot of the things that we talked

01:05:00.140 about men are going to want to know more about, and you've been a great resource in my life. So I would

01:05:05.640 love for these guys to know where to go. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Uh, the book is called

01:05:09.900 It's Not Me, It's You. And it's a relationship book. Uh, I'm also, my partner's a therapist. So

01:05:14.440 I decided, uh, if I'm going to write a relationship book, let me write it with someone who could check

01:05:19.800 me on my shit. That would be interesting. So we pull the curtain back and we talk about our

01:05:24.720 struggles. Uh, we have a two-year-old, um, how hard it is to build a relationship. And, um, so we

01:05:30.380 talk about that. And then of course, a lot of client stories. So it's a hybrid of a memoir

01:05:33.840 and, uh, self-help and, uh, comes out, uh, in a couple of weeks. So super awesome.

01:05:40.140 Yeah. How is it, how is it being now you guys aren't married, right? You said partner. So

01:05:45.200 you're not married. Yeah, we're not married. Um, everyone assumes we're married, which is,

01:05:48.780 which is hilarious because we're all, you know, uh, kind of program for, Oh, you guys are

01:05:52.540 together. You're living together. You have a child. You're married. Right. And we're like,

01:05:55.080 no, yeah. Maybe one day, but no, no. How is it? And yeah, that's fine. Whatever that,

01:06:00.640 but how is it being with somebody who's a therapist? You guys are both therapists. Are

01:06:05.360 you guys always like, what is that? What is that dynamic? Like, and is it frustrating at times?

01:06:10.380 You're like, I don't want you to analyze or, or break down my emotions tonight. Like I just want

01:06:15.140 to watch a movie. It was, uh, easier to be with someone who didn't have the clinical background

01:06:20.720 because then you kind of have the upper hand. You could say, you would use it. You would use it

01:06:26.640 against, would you say against somebody else? Sure. Sure. I don't, I mean,

01:06:30.420 uh, I don't know if I would, uh, I don't know if I would like sit down and craft a plan, but,

01:06:35.460 um, yeah, you know, you could get into an argument where you can defend yourself because

01:06:40.420 you have a clinical background and this is what, you know, I've learned. I have emotional

01:06:45.280 intelligence training, that kind of stuff. Um, uh, and, and, and the person, you know,

01:06:50.580 who isn't a therapist, like, what could they say to that? Uh, now that I'm with a therapist,

01:06:54.600 uh, she could say, Oh, that's bullshit. I also have, yeah. She can hold her own for

01:06:59.640 sure. Right. Which is actually good because of course you want that. Yeah. We're meant

01:07:04.840 to challenge each other. That's how we sharpen. Right. So in, um, in our relationship, uh, it's

01:07:09.880 good. It's good that two people are challenging each other, uh, coming from kindness, but, but,

01:07:14.760 but yeah, I mean, no one should be the, uh, the dominant or the, um, you know, the one that says

01:07:21.040 this is how it is. Yeah. I agree. I, that would be very unhealthy. Well, good. We're also not getting

01:07:27.620 anything out of it anyway. Yeah. You're not improving because there's nothing to push on you.

01:07:31.860 Right. Right. Yeah. Well, how do we connect with you and learn more about what you're doing? Let the

01:07:36.020 guys know. Uh, yeah. Uh, at, uh, the angry therapists on social. And, uh, my big thing now I'm

01:07:40.900 obsessed about is, uh, using SMS texting as a way to a program. So like, uh, shooting daily texts and

01:07:47.820 links and stuff, uh, me being in your back pocket. So I'm doing a lot of that and, uh, and then doing

01:07:52.760 what you're doing. I have my own podcast and creating conversations and trying to, um, live on a higher

01:07:58.220 frequency. It's hard. It is hard. It is hard, but worth it and fulfilling as well. Yeah. And Ryan,

01:08:05.920 thank you for, for everything that you do. And, uh, these honest conversations, man,

01:08:10.360 they're just time capsules. And I think so many people are going to get, gets, you know,

01:08:14.240 stuff out of your whole catalog. So thank you for everything. Right on. Thank you, brother.

01:08:17.920 Appreciate you. All right, man. Be well. All right, you guys, there you go. My conversation

01:08:23.400 with the angry therapist, Mr. John Kim. Again, he's got his new book coming out. It's not me.

01:08:28.020 It's you break the blame cycle relationship better. I hope you enjoyed that. Like I said,

01:08:32.840 when we started a little bit different pace and tempo than we've done in the past. And I felt like it was

01:08:36.500 a bit of my own personal therapy session, which I've needed. So it was good. It was therapeutic

01:08:41.440 for me. Uh, and, and I hope it is for you too. I would definitely follow John online, connect with

01:08:48.360 him on the socials, uh, sign up for his texts that he talked about, pick up a copy of his newest book

01:08:53.260 and other books that he has available and really tune into what this guy is saying. Cause I think he's

01:08:57.620 going to help a lot of us on our path to self-improvement and development. Uh, outside of that,

01:09:02.740 just make sure to take a screenshot right now of you listening to the show, take a screenshot,

01:09:07.320 tag, tag, not tag, tag the angry therapist, tag me at Ryan Mickler, share it on Facebook,

01:09:13.840 Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, wherever, and let other men know what you're listening to because

01:09:19.520 they can be served by this information. All right, guys, you have your marching orders.

01:09:23.460 We'll be back tomorrow for our, ask me anything until then go out there, take action and become a

01:09:29.500 man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take

01:09:34.740 charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order

01:09:39.360 at order of man.com.

Order of Man - August 23, 2022

JOHN KIM ｜ Solid Self vs. Pseudo Self

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