Order of Man - JOHN LOVELL ｜ Injustice Exists When Men Tolerate It

00:00:00.000 There's no doubt in my mind that we, as a nation, and frankly, across the world, are

00:00:05.200 facing a moral confusion, if not a complete moral crisis.

00:00:10.880 And unless righteous men can step up to the plate, we'll continue to see the moral decay

00:00:16.480 of everything we love, from our favorite institutions, to our families, and our neighborhoods, and

00:00:22.360 even the threat of losing this great nation.

00:00:25.020 And that is not hyperbole.

00:00:26.520 Today, I'm joined by John Lovell, founder of Warrior Poet Society and former Army Ranger,

00:00:31.800 to discuss what we, as men, can do about it.

00:00:34.660 We talk about mercy and justice, and how to satisfy both, why we should hate injustice,

00:00:40.540 the dangers of communism and socialism, why we must unite behind truth with a capital T,

00:00:47.020 why happiness is inferior to joy, and why we should pursue peace, if possible, but truth

00:00:52.760 at all costs.

00:00:53.640 You're a man of action.

00:00:55.000 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:59.800 When life knocks you down, you get back up, one more time, every time.

00:01:04.220 You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:09.320 This is your life.

00:01:10.420 This is who you are.

00:01:11.820 This is who you will become.

00:01:13.540 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:18.500 Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast, back for another great episode.

00:01:23.140 We're going to end 2025 with momentum and the steamrolling, and I can't really think

00:01:27.780 of very many men who I'd much rather have on the podcast than this guy, a good friend

00:01:32.920 of mine, a fellow veteran.

00:01:35.920 Also, we started our movements that are very comparable around the same time, so we've

00:01:41.520 learned and grown together, and it's really cool to see John's success and what he's doing

00:01:45.580 in the men's space.

00:01:47.560 I'll get to that in just a minute.

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00:02:33.720 All right, guys, let me introduce you to John.

00:02:35.480 I don't think a lot of you need an introduction, but I'm going to do it anyways just in case.

00:02:39.180 He is a former army ranger, a combat veteran, pastor.

00:02:43.520 He's also the founder of Warrior Poet Society.

00:02:46.240 This is a global movement devoted to virtuous leadership and self-mastery and responsible

00:02:53.200 masculinity.

00:02:54.500 And after serving in special operations and deploying to some of the world's most volatile

00:02:59.860 environments, John transitioned into a new mission, helping men become protectors and

00:03:06.080 providers and leaders in their homes and communities.

00:03:08.900 Through his books, The Warrior Poet Way and his newest book, The Lions of Mercer, and also

00:03:13.420 his wife's book, Boyhood Resurrected, training programs, his online platform, he takes the warrior

00:03:20.900 virtues and combines that with emotional intelligence.

00:03:25.400 Now, beyond just his military and tactical expertise, which is plentiful, John is a husband, father,

00:03:32.740 author, and mentor who believes that he's often said, strength without love is brutality and

00:03:39.820 love without strength is weakness.

00:03:43.880 It seems like you've always got a lot going on, so I'm glad that you and I could take some

00:03:47.160 time to do this.

00:03:47.880 It's been a little while.

00:03:48.620 I haven't looked at the last time we did a podcast, but it has been a bit for sure.

00:03:53.280 It's been a minute.

00:03:54.120 It's good to see you again, man.

00:03:56.300 Yeah, you too.

00:03:57.180 I am curious about one of your latest books you wrote is The Lions of Mercer, which is

00:04:02.540 a complete, well, I wouldn't say complete deviation, but it's fictional.

00:04:05.960 And I'm very curious about that, why you decided to go into that realm for this last book as

00:04:10.900 opposed to the men's self-development space that you normally operate in.

00:04:16.780 Right.

00:04:17.320 So for a long time, especially as a young man, I was on this self-betterment track, and I'm

00:04:21.960 still on that to some extent, but I really didn't regard fiction as nearly as important.

00:04:26.600 It's like, why would you waste time?

00:04:28.180 I should be reading business books and history and all kinds of nonfiction or philosophy and

00:04:33.440 theology.

00:04:33.880 And I still contend that that is really, really worthy pursuit.

00:04:36.920 However, folks, particularly men and hard-charging, kind of A-type men, completely don't understand

00:04:43.900 why fiction is absolutely crucial and essential.

00:04:46.600 And so warrior and poet, poet, I'm trying to really hone in on what does that element have

00:04:54.200 to bring to bear?

00:04:54.900 And so fiction unleases a whole bunch of creative powers that would otherwise lie dormant or dying

00:05:04.120 in a normal man.

00:05:05.320 And I think a lot of guys, especially business owners and just guys, we need to be able to

00:05:10.740 escape a bit of our just routine and all the chores and all the tasks and all the responsibilities,

00:05:16.840 let our minds rest in a different kind of adventure.

00:05:20.140 And that fiction really wakes up and blossoms so much creativity.

00:05:25.140 I can't even put my finger on how this helps so much.

00:05:29.420 I really just know that it does.

00:05:31.000 And so my heart and my mind are both awakened through reading really good fiction.

00:05:37.240 And so I've really kept that habit up, rereading a lot of the great classics and whatnot, and

00:05:41.980 really wanted my own hand in it as well.

00:05:44.260 And part of the reason for writing this newer book, Lions of Mercer, was to kind of

00:05:50.120 cathartically live out some injustice I was seeing in the public square.

00:05:54.080 Like I'm really still very ticked off about the Afghanistan withdrawal.

00:05:59.680 And the book really starts at that point and then goes into a fictional tirade where it'll

00:06:06.600 end up bringing justice to all the Epstein client kind of stuff that all those guys just

00:06:12.840 got off scot-free, just scot-free.

00:06:14.720 And so, well, not in my book.

00:06:16.740 In my book, we hunt them all down and murk everyone involved.

00:06:21.680 And so it's a really cathartic thriller where we're able to have some heroes and anti-heroes

00:06:27.740 hunt down a bunch of sick, twisted dudes and bring them to justice.

00:06:31.480 And so it's a fun read. 0.90

00:06:32.960 It was really fun to write.

00:06:34.220 And I ferret in all these wonderful themes of redemption.

00:06:38.780 There's a salvation moment.

00:06:40.960 There's themes of fatherhood.

00:06:43.360 There's plenty of warrior.

00:06:44.920 There's plenty of poet stuff there.

00:06:46.600 And so it's really, really fun.

00:06:49.240 Me and my co-author, Harrison Cohn, had a lot of fun writing this.

00:06:54.360 Yeah, it's interesting because I hear you say a lot of the same things that Jack Carr has

00:06:58.880 mentioned on the podcast.

00:07:00.460 I had Lee and Andrew Child on.

00:07:02.720 And obviously, they've written the Reacher series and very much echo the same sentiment

00:07:08.120 that it allows us to explore what we would probably like to do or take upon ourselves.

00:07:16.020 But in a, quote unquote, more civilized society, we aren't necessarily allowed to, which is kind

00:07:21.200 of interesting to be able to explore the fringes of what we would want to do, although we may

00:07:25.360 not be able to do.

00:07:26.740 Yeah.

00:07:26.860 I mean, my heart cries for justice.

00:07:29.220 You know, if you love the innocent, you'll hate the injustice that abuses and kills and

00:07:34.720 takes advantage of them.

00:07:36.360 And so in a world where you're not offered injustice, it can be good for the heart to

00:07:42.540 find it in other ways, even if it's fictitious.

00:07:47.200 But it's better than just bottling it up and not having any way to do it.

00:07:51.320 So part of it was a little bit of a cathartic cope that I do find edifying.

00:07:57.440 It still, it doesn't abdicate us from working for justice in real life in the public spheres.

00:08:02.760 We should do that, but we can rally around stuff like that, stuff that's noble and true

00:08:08.640 so that we can see it working out, feel it working out, and then carry that into the real

00:08:12.600 life to help focus and motivate our mission.

00:08:17.160 So there you go.

00:08:18.820 It is interesting too, is when you talk about if you love the innocent, innocent, you'll

00:08:24.300 hate injustice, you see this in modern times.

00:08:27.140 And I'm sure it has been throughout human history where people seem to be more likely

00:08:35.620 to than they ever have, at least in my opinion, to really be on the side of victimizers than

00:08:45.160 victims and consider the feelings of people who are perpetuating crime and hate and hostility

00:08:51.240 because heaven forbid you ruin those individuals' lives.

00:08:54.580 But they don't take into consideration the victims of that violence.

00:08:58.040 And that's something that is very disheartening to say the least.

00:09:02.520 I've seen, yeah, that's such a good thing to say.

00:09:05.020 I totally agree.

00:09:06.640 There's a place in the book of Romans in the Bible.

00:09:09.180 It says, love what is good and hate what's evil.

00:09:12.300 Romans 12.

00:09:13.640 So love the good and hate the evil.

00:09:16.100 And I think modern world is real good at hating the evil.

00:09:21.660 But if you're not loving the good simultaneously, it's really, it just, you can't build a gas

00:09:27.960 tank off that.

00:09:28.760 That's not real virtue.

00:09:30.080 That's a piece of it, but not the whole.

00:09:33.880 And what we can do is, is we can just get kind of a rage baiting culture where we go from lit

00:09:42.000 torches and drawn pitchforks from one thing that we're upset about to the next.

00:09:47.220 And it ends up being really destructive in general.

00:09:53.060 And like, look at that injustice and that injustice.

00:09:55.180 And all of a sudden, all of our feed and all of our things we're thinking about, it's all

00:10:00.140 about the things that we hate and the things that are going on.

00:10:03.260 And it's a trap.

00:10:04.960 That's a trap.

00:10:06.060 You got to focus your mind on the good, the pure, the noble, the praiseworthy, all that

00:10:12.880 stuff.

00:10:13.500 So that, so that we don't get the toxicity of all the hating all the stuff, which we should

00:10:18.520 hate all that stuff.

00:10:19.500 But if we're not getting a good, healthy amount in, uh, it's not good enough to just hate the

00:10:23.920 bad, you have to love the good.

00:10:25.500 And it's the love of good that helps, uh, uh, keep our hearts from growing sick.

00:10:31.140 As we just see all the bad and hating on that.

00:10:34.440 I've noticed some guys, even in our space in, in like the gun world and masculinity, uh, world

00:10:40.500 where they're kind of walking the straight and narrow, and then they deviate.

00:10:43.840 Maybe they have a moral failing, or maybe they just fall off the handle, or maybe they're

00:10:47.500 just go deep down rabbit trails.

00:10:49.400 So they're saying things that the public doesn't like.

00:10:51.780 And so that they were in grace and then there was a fall from grace and then they all hate

00:10:56.700 them.

00:10:57.200 I've seen a lot of guys that were never really, uh, fans of them in the first place, all

00:11:03.920 gather together to just kind of dog pile them and stuff.

00:11:07.160 And I'm like, oh, it was, it was always about just hating someone.

00:11:12.220 So, or, or they'll come to the defense of someone they never really had any love for,

00:11:16.320 but they're vehemently defending them because they just want to find, uh, uh, a place where

00:11:21.700 they can vent, uh, indignation, but feel like it's righteous indignation.

00:11:26.740 So they're taking up causes that they never really cared about in the first place, but

00:11:31.680 they saw opportunity to get furious about it and point a finger at something that wasn't

00:11:37.760 fair and hate.

00:11:38.700 And so, uh, I see that as a mark of toxicity.

00:11:41.540 It wasn't for love of that person that you're up in arms.

00:11:44.780 It's you saw an opportunity to vent fury and anger and rage.

00:11:49.880 And so again, they hate the bad well enough, but they don't really love the good.

00:11:55.740 I think that's well said.

00:11:57.580 I saw this just the other day I had posted, uh, uh, made a post on Instagram and Facebook

00:12:03.340 about some of the veterans that I've had on the podcast and for veterans day.

00:12:08.400 And you were on that list and the number one on that list, by the way, just want to let

00:12:12.420 you know.

00:12:12.680 Thank you.

00:12:13.140 Thank you.

00:12:13.620 Appreciate that.

00:12:14.420 And another individual that I had on there is Tim Kennedy and I had put them on there and

00:12:21.680 they had a bunch of people.

00:12:22.840 I'll take them off that list.

00:12:23.960 I'm like, you know, he's still a veteran and I don't agree with some of the things that

00:12:27.500 I've seen and heard from what he's done.

00:12:29.420 But I had somebody mention and say something like, you know, what do you think of it?

00:12:33.560 And I said, you know, yeah, stolen valor is an issue.

00:12:36.400 It's a serious, it's a serious issue.

00:12:38.480 It's a problem, but I, I'm anxious.

00:12:42.200 I think he can redeem himself and I'm anxious to see what he does about it.

00:12:46.720 And I got, like you said, dogpiled because I said that.

00:12:50.360 And it's like, you know, how many of us have messed up in our lives, done something dumb, 0.59

00:12:54.360 done something wrong, said something that we shouldn't have taken advantage of somebody

00:12:58.920 else.

00:12:59.380 I believe fully in the power of redemption.

00:13:01.880 And I believe even in spite of our mess ups and mistakes, we can make amends, we can improve,

00:13:07.340 we can drive on and we can get better.

00:13:09.680 Unfortunately, there just seems to be so many people who don't believe that.

00:13:13.180 Yeah, that's a good word.

00:13:15.320 You know, the, the firearms industry, the masculinity space, it's not just something I'm firmly

00:13:19.800 in.

00:13:20.340 It's the actual creators and it are a bit of my, I don't know, they're my mission field.

00:13:24.740 And the Lord's given me a special love for the guys, you know, of like, uh, I, I, I loved

00:13:29.420 him.

00:13:29.900 I loved him.

00:13:31.160 Um, and I understand all the, the negative stuff of like his critics that would be like,

00:13:35.680 what about this and this and this and this?

00:13:37.200 And I'm like, well, one, I haven't investigated all that, but even, even so, even some of the

00:13:41.900 stuff that that's flagrantly obvious and whatnot, I would also just balance it with Tim has served

00:13:50.060 the country as a green beret in multiple combat tours and, uh, embellishment aside, it's not

00:13:58.260 like he has done nothing in that.

00:14:00.340 Well, he, he also competed as a UFC fighter.

00:14:02.520 That's not an easy thing.

00:14:04.220 Uh, he's also a middle-aged man in a better shape than most of your listeners and my listeners

00:14:10.420 ever will be in.

00:14:11.920 Um, so I, I don't know anything about his marriage or, or kids, but I know he's also

00:14:17.460 helped found a school that does good work.

00:14:20.580 And so what I'm not ready to do is completely throw a man out of, uh, you know, just under 0.89

00:14:27.640 the bus in, grab my own pitchfork and torch and just hate the guy.

00:14:32.760 Uh, you know, so, uh, is, is embellishing war stories bad?

00:14:38.200 Yeah.

00:14:38.800 The thing is, is Tim never needed to really embellish it.

00:14:42.760 He could have just here, here it is.

00:14:45.360 And even sandbag and not, and it would have been a hero would have, would have done a lot

00:14:49.680 of worthy stuff.

00:14:50.740 And not all of that is undone all of the sudden it's certainly tarnished.

00:14:57.040 Uh, and, and that that's not good, but I've even seen him come out and express, uh, regret

00:15:03.220 and things that look like repentance to me.

00:15:05.740 Um, but anyway, I guess I'm built and called to be a very forgiving, faithful, and long

00:15:13.880 suffering friend.

00:15:14.900 The viewer that's watching right now, that's ticked off that I, I won't, you know, uh, hate

00:15:21.240 Tim Kennedy.

00:15:22.440 Uh, guys, just as a spoiler alert, I'll even hang out with, uh, tax collectors and centers.

00:15:28.420 You know, I'll even hang out with them.

00:15:30.620 Uh, and if you, who I, I don't, I don't know you, you who are listening or watching, uh, 0.98

00:15:36.760 if you were my friend and you did something stupid and you fell, um, I would stay loyally 0.97

00:15:43.260 by your side too. 0.99

00:15:44.840 Um, and so, uh, um, a brother is born for adversity.

00:15:48.700 And, um, so I don't know, I, I guess I'm just really, really slow to throw stones.

00:15:58.800 So, um, yeah, it doesn't mean of like, no, nobody should embellish war records.

00:16:04.500 No one should lie.

00:16:05.660 No one should, you know, extort.

00:16:07.520 No one should be doing any bad things anywhere in any realm of like, I'm not, I'm not excusing

00:16:13.700 it and that's not okay anywhere.

00:16:16.660 Uh, but I'm just saying that forgiveness and faithfulness is good.

00:16:20.380 That's part of loving the good, uh, which we were just talking about of like, I hate

00:16:24.200 the bad.

00:16:24.620 I'm like, I hate it too, but I love the good more than I hate the bad.

00:16:27.280 Welcome to the club.

00:16:29.320 What, uh, what is the good?

00:16:31.020 You know, sometimes it's not so obvious or it can even be challenging.

00:16:34.500 I know that's pretty broad to ask that question.

00:16:37.000 What is the good?

00:16:38.060 Um, but what would you say that is at its foundational level?

00:16:41.720 What should we be seeking after?

00:16:44.140 Uh, so I'm a content creator.

00:16:45.720 I do warrior poet society.

00:16:47.180 We do trainings and stuff.

00:16:48.780 I write books.

00:16:49.460 I do speaking events, but at my heart, who John level really is, is I'm a Christian and

00:16:54.300 I'm a pastor.

00:16:54.960 I'm a pastor of a church.

00:16:56.420 So I'm in the pulpit every single Sunday.

00:16:58.580 And so you asked me a question like, what is the good?

00:17:01.240 I'm going to immediately flock to my kind of source of, uh, of, of truth.

00:17:05.300 And that's the, uh, Jesus was asked by somebody.

00:17:09.440 Um, uh, he just kind of called out to Jesus and says, good teacher.

00:17:13.700 And then he asked him a question and Jesus ignored the question and instead looked at

00:17:17.560 the man and says, why do you call me good?

00:17:19.840 None is good, but God alone.

00:17:22.520 And it was kind of like a wink, a funny moment where Jesus is like, do you realize I'm God

00:17:27.580 among us?

00:17:28.200 God became flesh.

00:17:29.280 And so it was a real fun moment, like, uh, right there.

00:17:32.520 Uh, but, uh, to the point is, is what's good.

00:17:35.380 Uh, the Lord Jesus is good.

00:17:36.940 Who's forgiven me when I have fallen.

00:17:40.000 Um, when I've sinned over and over again, he has been, um, good to me.

00:17:45.560 And he gave me rich forgiveness when I didn't deserve it.

00:17:48.920 And because I've received incredible amounts of forgiveness, I've got a constantly full

00:17:54.880 tank ready to give forgiveness elsewhere.

00:17:58.180 And so in the eyes of the world that are like, why aren't you picketing this guy?

00:18:02.060 Why don't you hate him?

00:18:03.100 Like I do.

00:18:03.780 I'm like, man, heartful of love and, and loyalty and faithfulness and forgiveness.

00:18:09.980 And it looked like, you know, Tim seemed in my estimation to have, uh, have his hat in

00:18:17.820 his hand with enough repentance that just, if you open the door just this much, I can

00:18:21.880 shove a lot of forgiveness in there.

00:18:23.860 I can overlook a lot of offense, um, where Christians can get this wrong is because Jesus

00:18:29.680 is forgiving, we don't have to punish criminals and we don't have to bring justice.

00:18:34.800 And that's also just a complete lie.

00:18:37.460 That's such a beta weak sauce move of like, no, establish justice in the courts, uh, punish

00:18:43.280 the wrongdoer.

00:18:43.920 Remember I started out this whole, uh, podcast here talking about, I'm a justice guy.

00:18:49.220 I want justice, right?

00:18:51.420 And when Jesus gives us forgiveness, it is, it's not an overlooking of our offenses.

00:18:56.740 It's actually conceding that Jesus already paid a eternal infinite debt on our part.

00:19:04.160 And so, because he died for me, God, the father put justice out on Jesus.

00:19:08.740 So he paid my debt.

00:19:10.040 So it's not like overlooking the wrong it's instead, the wrongdoing is covered by the suffering,

00:19:17.360 uh, of Jesus Christ.

00:19:19.340 And so the, the criminal isn't going free.

00:19:22.760 Jesus took the punishment.

00:19:24.440 Jesus was punished.

00:19:25.320 And so that's where I default from.

00:19:27.420 That's the wellspring of what goodness is and forgiveness and grace and faithfulness

00:19:34.660 and loyalty and patience.

00:19:36.620 All of that stuff flows from it, but it's not soft on the bad.

00:19:42.380 Yeah.

00:19:43.020 I've always been fascinated with this idea of mercy and justice because on the surface level,

00:19:47.340 you might say they're antithetical to one another.

00:19:49.640 But in, in this case, when you're talking about Christ, both justice and mercy were satisfied.

00:19:55.480 Mercy for us, justice for our sins, it was taken on, that was paid for, but he was merciful

00:20:01.720 and deciding that he would pay for it for us so that we would not have to pay for it ourselves.

00:20:07.240 Also, who am I, you know, to, to judge other people?

00:20:10.040 I think I'm not a biblical scholar like you are, but I think, and you can, I'm sure you can reference

00:20:14.980 the scripture where it talks about the way that we will be judged as the way that we judge others.

00:20:19.820 And that's, that's a little scary to me.

00:20:21.880 If I'm being honest, that that's the scarier side of things.

00:20:24.740 Cause I know how judgeful I can be.

00:20:27.300 It's right.

00:20:27.980 And some Christians will take what you just said, which is absolutely true and think, ah,

00:20:33.460 see, you can't judge anyone's actions and you can't make judgments on anything anywhere.

00:20:38.760 And really a lot of folks that are adjacent to Christianity, but not really firmly rooted

00:20:43.900 in it, use this as a shield so that you can't say anything about my conduct or what I'm doing.

00:20:49.460 And this is not true at all.

00:20:51.000 Jesus is not telling us to suspend all judgment on all people and all things.

00:20:55.940 Rather, he's just saying, Hey, don't judge hypocritically.

00:20:59.780 And so a thing that's commonly cited is, is judge not lest you be judged.

00:21:03.620 Why do you judge your brother?

00:21:04.880 Uh, where he, uh, he's got a speck in his eye and you've got a log on your eye, but then

00:21:08.580 the verse goes on and it says, first, remove the log from your own eye.

00:21:12.420 So then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye, which means if your

00:21:16.720 brother's doing wrong, uh, me, I am my brother's keeper.

00:21:20.140 I can go to my brother and be like, Hey bro, this is jacked up.

00:21:23.000 What's happened?

00:21:23.460 Let's, let's chat about that.

00:21:24.720 I'm like, can't be doing that.

00:21:25.720 And he says, judge not.

00:21:26.820 I'm like, Hey man, I'm not doing that.

00:21:28.780 Scripture says this.

00:21:29.740 You say you live by scripture and I'm just here as your brother here helping you out,

00:21:34.880 but you got to knock this stuff out.

00:21:36.580 You know, you got to knock this stuff off.

00:21:38.420 And so, no, I am my brother's keeper.

00:21:40.800 There's a part in first Corinthians five, uh, where Paul is admonishing a church that isn't

00:21:45.920 engaging in good church discipline.

00:21:47.980 And so, uh, basically this is an in-house, uh, in-house conversation where there's some Christians 0.97

00:21:53.540 that are guilty of grievous, super vile sexual immorality and like swindler type greed and, 0.98

00:22:02.320 and, and, and some things like that.

00:22:03.640 It's in the latter part of first Corinthians five.

00:22:05.540 And it says, Hey, when I wrote to you in my letter, not to associate with the sexually immoral

00:22:09.760 people, I didn't mean the sexually immoral of this world.

00:22:12.080 In that case, you'd have to leave this world.

00:22:14.000 Rather, I was speaking of the ones that, uh, bear the name of brother.

00:22:18.180 If they're guilty of sexual immorality, purge the evil one from amongst you, call them to

00:22:22.760 repentance.

00:22:23.140 And so, uh, that I quoted a good bit of that and paraphrase the end, but it says, are not

00:22:27.880 those in the church whom you are to judge?

00:22:30.260 Yeah. 0.89

00:22:31.220 Purge the evil one.

00:22:32.180 So if they, they hold to the standard of Christianity, we get to hold them to that standard 0.98

00:22:36.980 and you know, a tree by its fruit.

00:22:38.860 And so what I'm doing is I'm looking at the tree.

00:22:40.620 I'm judging whether it has proper fruit or no fruit.

00:22:44.020 And then I get to have a conversation with that, that, that person of like, Hey man,

00:22:47.920 you got no fruit in your life.

00:22:49.460 I, I'm not going to give you a nice, easy road to destroying your life.

00:22:55.480 And all those are attached to you.

00:22:56.760 Let's have a conversation about that, man.

00:22:58.160 I'm an advocate for you and I'm calling this out because I love you.

00:23:01.700 So let's chat about that.

00:23:02.960 And that that's real Christian virtue.

00:23:05.580 That's a loving of the good.

00:23:07.440 It's not just ready to dismiss someone the moment they're doing bad.

00:23:10.720 But, um, anyway, uh, folks overly simplify, uh, what's going on there in the scripture.

00:23:18.840 Well, and I, I like what you were talking about as well as, as removing the beam from

00:23:22.660 your eye, it, you know, it's, uh, it requires self-working work and it requires being in integrity.

00:23:29.160 You know, how are you going to call somebody out for doing something that you're doing behind

00:23:32.140 closed doors?

00:23:33.100 That's right. 0.95

00:23:33.620 And, you know, I've been guilty of that and that's very hypocritical. 0.62

00:23:35.860 And, uh, it's amazing how quickly people can see that and how I believe it tears at your

00:23:43.240 soul a little bit.

00:23:44.120 You know, when I was in the depths of my alcohol abuse, it did tear up my soul a little bit

00:23:47.760 that I was telling other people how they ought to behave while I wasn't behaving.

00:23:52.000 Um, and you know, when you stop acting like that and you start acting within alignment

00:23:56.620 of the way that you really truly view the world, it's pretty incredible how crystal clear

00:24:03.020 everything gets, how much peace comes into your soul and how much stronger your message

00:24:11.160 can be to others.

00:24:12.400 That's a good word.

00:24:13.460 Yeah, that's a good word, man.

00:24:16.260 Um, the other thing that I've noticed, and I'd be curious about your take on this is we

00:24:23.320 seem to be falling into this personal happiness culture.

00:24:27.120 And this is antithetical to what you're talking about, about being your brother's keeper.

00:24:30.740 You know, when you call somebody out or call them up or hold them accountable or hold

00:24:34.560 them to a standard, a lot of society will say, you know, live and let live, let people

00:24:39.680 be, this is what makes them happy.

00:24:41.840 Just let people be happy.

00:24:43.400 And I think it's a real trap.

00:24:44.500 It's hurting a lot of people under the false guise of, of happiness and enjoyment of life.

00:24:50.640 I think that's so good, Ryan.

00:24:52.300 Um, you don't really want happiness.

00:24:56.660 You think you do.

00:24:57.860 You don't want happiness.

00:24:58.980 Happiness is, is, is interested in what's here right now.

00:25:04.260 Instead, you want joy and joy is a product of virtue.

00:25:09.580 Joy is a product of holiness.

00:25:11.660 Joy is a long marathon thought.

00:25:14.680 Joy is a long marathon, which will span the bookends of your entire life and eternity.

00:25:20.300 That's joy.

00:25:21.860 Happiness is, Oh, I got paid.

00:25:23.660 Oh, I have to pay taxes.

00:25:25.800 You know, it's like up, down, up, it's a rollercoaster ride of like, I'm happy.

00:25:29.960 I got the donut.

00:25:30.980 Oh, I'm sad.

00:25:31.780 I got a muffin top now.

00:25:33.120 It's, uh, you know, it's, that's what it is.

00:25:36.420 I'm like, um, so, uh, happiness is so fleeting.

00:25:41.060 And if you go for it, what you can do is, um, you can seek the right here and now happiness.

00:25:46.840 And it's so fleeting.

00:25:48.280 You'll have a really fun year and a really lousy decade.

00:25:51.580 Instead, if you go for joy, which joy has all the stuff of discipline and self-control, it'll put off a little pleasure now for a greater pleasure later.

00:26:02.180 That's all working from, for joy.

00:26:04.680 That's long lasting health rather than temporary splurge.

00:26:10.040 Uh, right.

00:26:10.940 And so right now, Ryan, as a recovering alcoholic, uh, when you got drunk, uh, on a Tuesday, that made you happy in the moment.

00:26:20.520 And it was amazing.

00:26:22.040 Yeah.

00:26:22.620 And, and, and super fun.

00:26:23.820 That's what, that's why it was hard to engage, uh, hard to, to cut ties from, but in order to have an actual life that wasn't destroyed and everything attached to it to go for joy, you have to put the temporary behind you of like, we, we pass on happiness so that we can have something wildly more important and that's joy.

00:26:42.900 And so that's what the modern person is sacrificing.

00:26:46.540 They're going to have a fun year and a lousy life.

00:26:49.640 How do you, how do you teach this to others?

00:26:54.120 You know, we talk, you talk about being your brother's keeper.

00:26:56.780 How do you teach this to the men in your life who have not even remotely considered this idea?

00:27:03.360 And also how do you teach that to our sons and daughters who are driven by what can I get right now in the short term immediately because I need to be satiated?

00:27:13.460 So good.

00:27:14.100 So good.

00:27:15.820 Um, I think you can teach what you know, but you can only replicate who you are.

00:27:19.440 Uh, I can fill the ears of younger men and women and my sons and, uh, folks that are listening in with all kinds of wisdom.

00:27:28.120 Maybe some of it, maybe some of it can be clipped up and mashed up little background music and go viral on Instagram.

00:27:34.860 But really the thing that sticks, it isn't the provocative teaching.

00:27:39.760 It's the example.

00:27:41.520 It's the actually living this way.

00:27:44.020 And so when folks in the flesh around me are caught up into how I'm actually health, uh, doing life in a healthy, peaceful, joyful way, they see that.

00:27:55.340 And it's not ups and downs, uh, and they wonder what in the world, what do you have that I don't have?

00:28:01.620 Uh, and he's called the Holy spirit.

00:28:04.040 Uh, it happens at salvation.

00:28:06.300 It's so for me, it's all going to go back to, uh, I allow the Bible to change who I am so that I can have a peace that transcends all understanding and a joy everlasting.

00:28:18.220 And I'm getting a little preach.

00:28:19.400 I didn't mean to, but you're asking questions that go way deep down to the root.

00:28:24.680 And it keeps arriving me at the source of where everything good that I have comes from.

00:28:33.700 I also think as I know how many people listen to this, some believers, some not that there's such it's, let me back up a little bit.

00:28:42.920 It's interesting to see so many people wrestle with Christianity and I am a Christian.

00:28:47.240 Um, I struggle with my faith at times more than, than a lot of people I'm sure, but I believe, and I know that even if I didn't fully believe that the ideas and the premise of Christianity is good for society as a whole.

00:29:02.740 And it's amazing to me how many people who might be atheists or agnostic don't even see the value from a secular perspective, let alone a spiritual one.

00:29:12.040 Yeah, it's interesting that even the dogmatic atheist, Richard Dawkins has said, and he's come out really, uh, in a very different way.

00:29:24.000 We're seeing a very different Dawkins than what we saw even a decade ago, seething, foaming at the mouth, hating Christianity.

00:29:30.620 And now he's seen the products of Islam. 0.99

00:29:33.900 He's also seen that the bloodiest century of all human history was the atheistic cold 20th century with all the dictators, uh, espousing this Nietzsche Superman gone wrong, uh, of Mao and Stalin and Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, horrible scourge crimes against humanity. 0.74

00:29:54.180 And it's like, man, Pol Pot would kill more people in a weekend than all the like witch trials and Christian inquisitions put together. 0.98

00:30:03.720 It's like that, that's what can happen of like the thing that's far more dangerous than religion is no religion.

00:30:10.140 And that's what the 20th century taught us.

00:30:12.460 And so now there, there's a, a real amazing resurgence of Christianity that's happening right now.

00:30:18.980 Well, leaders, uh, all kinds of church attendance is blowing up.

00:30:23.280 And a lot of it's the young men as well.

00:30:26.080 It is better for society.

00:30:27.780 It turns out we do need a moral base that we agree on.

00:30:31.820 And for, uh, America, we were founded on a foundation of one nation under God.

00:30:37.120 We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal cap capital C created created equal that they're endowed by that creator with certain unalienable rights.

00:30:47.600 That among these are, uh, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

00:30:50.700 That was in our declaration of independence.

00:30:52.620 Uh, you know, if, uh, all, but one of our signers were God believing men who attended church.

00:31:01.200 And even if they weren't following every line of the Bible, they at least could rally together and say, Hey, here's, here's, we got to have some moral standard.

00:31:09.980 This looks like the best game in town.

00:31:11.780 And so we were founded upon those principles, at least as a Christian nation.

00:31:16.560 And so if you want to recreate America with a different foundation, well, when you demo a foundation, the whole edifice falls.

00:31:23.520 And so a lot of folks realize that if there's no moral law giver and the atheists have to struggle with this.

00:31:29.200 If there is no real moral law giver, then morality is just this made up game.

00:31:34.620 It's all make believe.

00:31:36.240 It's a pretend thing that we tell each other just so that we won't eat each other like wolves and we can keep society in check.

00:31:44.560 So we can say, Hey, it's a social contract of like, there's no real right and wrong.

00:31:49.660 It's not actually wrong to be racist or have slaves or to sex traffic or to murder anyone.

00:31:58.680 It's just something that we're going to say is wrong to keep society in check.

00:32:03.660 So it doesn't hurt me personally.

00:32:05.120 You know, we're, we're inventing morality as a social contract or as an individual.

00:32:10.460 But if there's no moral law giver, there's no real moral law. 0.91

00:32:13.880 And so the atheist is forced to either admit morality is this fake noble lie, or they can cast it all off and just live as a complete psychopath. 0.93

00:32:24.900 But you can't live honestly and consistently as an atheist because you have to invent this moral thing. 0.97

00:32:32.080 And, and the believer in God knows that no, God created morality, authorizes what's right and wrong.

00:32:38.820 So morality is a real thing.

00:32:41.200 It's actually truly evil and wrong to murder an innocent person.

00:32:46.440 And the atheist has no basis to say anything is wrong or right.

00:32:53.460 Man, let me step away from the conversation just briefly.

00:32:56.200 I want to ask you what you're doing to close out 2025 because as the year does wind down, you should be ruthlessly auditing your life, figuring out what worked, what failed, what needs to be cut loose.

00:33:13.580 This can really be a season to be brutally honest about your habits and relationships and excuses, the things that have held you back.

00:33:20.640 So review your finances, fix your leadership at home, recommit to physical standards, acknowledge even the places that you've drifted instead of acted because we thrive on direction.

00:33:33.500 We don't thrive in chaos.

00:33:35.180 In fact, we try to bring order to chaos.

00:33:36.660 So closing out the year with a written plan, having a mission, a defined set of non-negotiables will ensure that you start 2026 with the momentum that you want and need rather than the regret that so many men experience year over year.

00:33:52.080 From there, focus on execution, not just reflection, but execution as well.

00:33:55.780 You got to build systems, simplify your routines, time blocking, tighten up your social circles and friends and challenges that will force you to grow, not be comfortable.

00:34:09.620 Guys, use the final weeks of the year to deepen your relationships with your family, fortify brotherhood and lead into the new year.

00:34:17.460 Now, if you want help doing this and you want a brotherhood of men who are working to do the same thing, then join us inside of our proven brotherhood and systems called the Iron Council.

00:34:27.980 We're open until the end of the year.

00:34:29.520 So join us, go to orderofman.com slash iron council.

00:34:33.940 That's orderofman.com slash iron council.

00:34:36.720 Do that right after the conversation.

00:34:38.320 For now, let's get back to it with John.

00:34:39.940 Well, it's interesting because if morality is a social construct, then who is it that gets to decide what is moral and what isn't?

00:34:53.720 Well, society.

00:34:54.460 And in this country, who represents society?

00:34:57.180 Elected officials.

00:34:58.160 So legislation, we'll say.

00:35:00.240 So if it's legislated that, for example, slavery is illegal, then that must be moral.

00:35:06.580 Now, what if, on the other hand, legislation gets together and decides today that slavery is reenacted and it is now legal once again?

00:35:15.600 Does that make it moral?

00:35:17.080 I don't think there's a leftist who would agree that it does.

00:35:21.660 Yeah, exactly.

00:35:22.560 And how can you act?

00:35:23.840 How can you decry the atrocities of different cultures at different times?

00:35:27.660 On what moral basis does the atheist or the lefty say that Hitler is actually evil or wrong?

00:35:34.360 That was his culture and his time.

00:35:36.580 And the government was in agreement.

00:35:39.080 So who are you to judge this man and culture?

00:35:42.060 Now, I, as a Christian, look at it and say that's reprehensible and that's evil.

00:35:45.400 But I have a standard for right and wrong which can authorize in a transcendent way morality is something real.

00:35:52.220 But if they don't have that and they do not, we're the authority.

00:35:56.240 And since we're the authority, we can change what morality is as a culture and as a government.

00:36:01.700 And so it's just out of fashion.

00:36:03.760 At best, it's just out of fashion to be racist or sex traffic or cook people in ovens.

00:36:10.280 Yeah, that is why.

00:36:12.740 What do you think about some of these other ideologies that tend to be cyclical?

00:36:17.480 You have Zora Mondani in New York and you see the rise of socialism and potentially even communism with young people, it seems like, and educated females.

00:36:30.040 What do you think is happening there?

00:36:32.940 Do you think that this is a bigger play than people are just sick and tired of the status quo or what they're seeing in culture today?

00:36:40.420 It's a complete rebellion against our very foundation.

00:36:43.400 It just means that in New York City, where they elected Islamic mayor, who is against capitalism as well.

00:36:54.000 It's like the financial heart of our country has a socialist in charge who hates our founding and is following in a completely different religion.

00:37:03.640 It's like, man, that's really problematic.

00:37:06.700 And so it's a house divided against itself cannot possibly stand.

00:37:14.240 And so what it does is it signals really the end of New York City.

00:37:20.240 Now, New York City is not ending tomorrow because of bad ideology today.

00:37:24.980 It takes a little while to work it out.

00:37:27.180 What happens now affects in five years, in 10 years.

00:37:30.920 But if you lose the top 1% of earners in New York City, New York City doesn't work.

00:37:36.700 Bankrupt.

00:37:37.680 Yeah, the top 1% of New York City is paying something to the tune of 40% to 50% of all of New York City's taxes.

00:37:45.080 So if you just scare away the top 1% of the capitalists paying all the bills, New York City goes bust.

00:37:53.900 I do have one issue with this house divided against itself type mentality.

00:38:00.760 And I agree where I take issue with it is what am I supposed to unite behind and what am I supposed to compromise with?

00:38:10.040 And so you hear this all the time.

00:38:11.280 People will say, oh, you know, united we stand, divided we fall.

00:38:14.320 I agree, but I'm not willing to unite with things that I find, to use your words, morally reprehensible.

00:38:21.360 And that is now the decision that has to be made.

00:38:24.580 So it seems to me that there comes a point in time in the not-too-distant future where we need to say, no, I'm not united with that.

00:38:32.220 I refuse to be united with that.

00:38:34.340 Right, and I totally, totally agree.

00:38:38.080 That's such a great word because my heart's for unity as well.

00:38:41.380 The fallacy is what we can do is where we're standing still.

00:38:45.560 We didn't ideologically move.

00:38:47.520 I'm just saying the same old Declaration of Independence, same old Constitution stuff, same old Bible stuff, same old morality stuff that's been true for as long as America's been alive.

00:39:00.760 And then they moved.

00:39:02.100 Now, that's not me causing division.

00:39:05.480 That's them departing.

00:39:07.160 And so we rally around a truth.

00:39:10.300 As Americans, the truth that we rally around is, one, it is scripture, which is the basis for our government and judicial system.

00:39:19.080 But then also it's our Constitution.

00:39:21.400 That's what really makes us Americans is we agree on the Constitution.

00:39:26.840 That's what makes us Americans.

00:39:27.680 It's not skin color.

00:39:28.480 It's not, you know, believing everything exactly the same, you know, like you can free to worship or not worship any way you want.

00:39:36.540 It's really our agreement on a Constitution.

00:39:40.060 That's what makes us Americans ideologically.

00:39:43.280 And so that's where I'm at.

00:39:45.620 Now, if you disagree with that, then you're departing.

00:39:48.300 And for me to say, I'm not following you, that's not me causing disunity.

00:39:53.900 That's them causing disunity. 0.58

00:39:56.220 The fallacy would be as, well, we need unity.

00:39:58.740 And so now we leave who we are.

00:40:01.620 We lose our identity.

00:40:02.720 We demo our own foundation on the way out the door to rally to the dissidents that left our ideological basis.

00:40:10.480 And what happens when we do that is we have a temporary unity, but a complete collapse of everything that we would have stood for.

00:40:17.980 And so you have to rally against something bigger than our individual perspectives or preferences.

00:40:24.560 We rally around a common shared cultural vision and ideology.

00:40:30.200 And for us as Americans, that is a constitutionally, yeah, that's really a constitution.

00:40:38.880 I like that you're talking about the ideological American.

00:40:43.440 I think it was Matt Walsh I was listening to, and he was talking about what makes an American an American.

00:40:48.240 And most people would say they're citizens.

00:40:50.860 They have citizenship.

00:40:52.020 And he made the argument that that doesn't actually mean that you're American.

00:40:57.460 Now, technically, yes, but you're making the distinction now.

00:41:00.820 And that's what he's saying is ideologically un-American.

00:41:03.960 And I wish that we can pull more people into that ideology.

00:41:07.060 But I do like that you said we're taking a stand, not moving.

00:41:11.180 It's those who are departing.

00:41:12.420 And let them leave.

00:41:13.980 If they have somewhere else they want to go, if they have another ideology that they think works better, let them leave.

00:41:19.260 This is what we do here.

00:41:21.140 I can't imagine you coming into my house, which you have been, and saying, hey, Ryan, you know, I don't like what you're doing here.

00:41:27.200 You need to go ahead and change it for me to stick around.

00:41:29.560 No, this is how we do it.

00:41:30.880 If you want to stick around, you can adopt this or you can leave.

00:41:35.320 You're welcome to do that.

00:41:36.240 And then you threw me out.

00:41:38.200 And I'm never coming back.

00:41:39.500 Tossed you out.

00:41:40.120 Because how dare you?

00:41:41.300 You haven't been back.

00:41:43.340 And I'm pretty mad about it.

00:41:44.500 How dare you?

00:41:45.100 I'm going to go dye my hair pink and get a septum ring now.

00:41:48.220 How dare you not change your house to my whim? 0.98

00:41:52.720 But that's kind of the ridiculous notion of what the leftist even does. 0.85

00:41:58.040 We just satirically kind of played that out.

00:42:00.320 By the way, when we visited, we had a good time.

00:42:03.560 That lobster was amazing.

00:42:05.900 That was just legendary feast we ended up having.

00:42:09.260 And I'll never forget the boys just slapping the daylights out of you.

00:42:15.580 They're running around with their shirts off and they're slapping each other and beating each other up and running around in that creek back there.

00:42:21.720 And that was a good time, man.

00:42:23.400 You know, I'm glad you brought that up because I actually wanted to pivot a little bit.

00:42:28.160 Your wife wrote a book called Boyhood Resurrected.

00:42:30.900 And that made total sense because I've seen you guys as parents and how loving you are with your boys.

00:42:36.940 I've seen how rowdy and rough and good and wholesome your boys are.

00:42:40.620 Why did you guys or why did she decide to write that book?

00:42:43.540 So we've been very, very interested in being intentional parents to raise strong boys into strong men.

00:42:52.820 That doesn't happen accidentally.

00:42:54.560 That's a rite of passage that happens with lots of small steps so that you build a man, you forge a man through suffering.

00:43:03.620 Iron against iron, so to speak.

00:43:06.660 Well, a lot of moms who are more prone to nurturing miss the rough and tumble, the difficulty, the skin knees, the risk-taking, the adventure.

00:43:19.360 And to them, it's keep them safe and give them academics.

00:43:22.040 And I'm like, hey, they're going to learn far more out in the trees doing stick fighting and inventing games and pushing the envelope and taking risks and learning skills and growing into all kinds of just different protector, provider skills and attributes.

00:43:41.040 They're learning more by being around a man, a dad, than they are in school.

00:43:49.140 They need to be around us more.

00:43:50.840 And we need to allow our boys opportunity for pain and suffering and for trying things and failing and finding adventure and flexing creative muscles and taking risks.

00:44:03.820 And if you don't allow them to opportunity to take risks, what a lot of moms don't understand is you're taking a terrible, terrible risk in not allowing them to take physical risks.

00:44:18.460 And what you risk is failure to launch.

00:44:21.180 You create a very weak boy who's afraid of his own shadow.

00:44:25.760 And one day he grows up and he doesn't really launch and he's afraid to ask the girl out.

00:44:30.960 Uh, he's afraid to start a business.

00:44:33.580 He's afraid to start any endeavor because he was never allowed to take risks.

00:44:37.120 And so keeping the boy from risks sabotages his future and, uh, doesn't allow him to pass into masculinity.

00:44:45.100 My wife understood this early on and she's helping other women and men to be able to get on the same page so that they can team together to understand what does dad bring to parenting?

00:44:58.320 A lot of moms will invite dad into like, Hey, why won't you help me with this?

00:45:02.720 Dad will come to get involved.

00:45:04.340 Mom will immediately not like that.

00:45:06.440 And then defend the kids against the dad.

00:45:08.020 It happens everywhere, all the time, every day.

00:45:10.780 Uh, and so what happens is, is that happens enough.

00:45:13.560 And the guy's like, I'm not falling for that.

00:45:15.440 As soon as I try, you know, I end up, I face the kids.

00:45:19.480 Mom doesn't like my tone or she doesn't like the punishment I came up with or the discipline or the standard, or that's too hard.

00:45:24.920 So she invites dad and then protects, uh, the kids from dad.

00:45:28.720 And dad's like, well, I'm, I'm going to go find a hobby in the garage.

00:45:31.960 You, you let me know when you're really ready for me to help.

00:45:34.300 And they don't know how to articulate that.

00:45:36.640 But what my wife's book, Boyhood Resurrected does is it brings up, uh, you know, the, uh, how a boy needs that risk and needs that adventure and needs that play and needs the rights of passage afforded by a father.

00:45:50.500 And the wife needs to be able to advocate for the way that a dad can get involved. 1.00

00:45:56.760 But really what the book does for both women and men is it brings them both together so that they are on the same team and on board with what each person brings to the table.

00:46:07.660 And the kid is going to flourish when dad gets his way sometimes and mom gets his way sometimes.

00:46:13.200 And particularly with boys, when they are starting off as little babies, it's the mom show and it's going to stay that way for a little while.

00:46:21.060 And then as they grow up, it tilts more and more till it becomes more about the dad show and the boys, as they grow stronger, they see mom, not just as nurturing caretaker.

00:46:31.920 They see mom as that's our girl and we're tasked to protect and provide.

00:46:36.520 So right now my boys are transitioning in their 11 and 13.

00:46:40.540 They're seeing mom as more of she, I need to help dad protect and provide for our girl.

00:46:47.620 And so they're regulating more on their own.

00:46:51.380 They're not as much under mom's foot.

00:46:53.940 They're now turning to mom of like, no, we're taking care of our girl here. 0.89

00:46:57.900 And so it's less rules oriented in our house now.

00:47:01.360 And though they're very disciplined, we don't have to like set a bunch of rules.

00:47:05.700 They're never getting in trouble.

00:47:06.560 They're never disobeying us and whatnot because we've crafted that foundation.

00:47:11.600 It's a real good thing.

00:47:12.560 And so my wife sought to resurrect boyhood in a way that worked for the whole family in a real good way and launched them into masculinity. 0.99

00:47:22.140 And it included the dad and the parenting strategy.

00:47:25.780 I think it's, I also think it's so good coming from a woman.

00:47:30.100 Uh, and, and I might've, I might not have said that five, six, seven years ago, but we have an entire fleet of single mothers who are raising boys on their own, who may not listen to the way that you and I say things because of that nurturing overriding mechanism they have, which is lovely.

00:47:48.260 It's beautiful, but if it doesn't have that other side, the masculine side, it can be a real challenge, but coming from a woman, it might be easier to hear.

00:47:57.520 It might be easier to take on and to actually understand that this is not a man trying to put a woman down or keep her barefoot and pregnant and under his rule, but that this is actually good and true and right for our young men.

00:48:10.340 That's right. Yeah. That's a good word.

00:48:13.320 I heard a, uh, an interesting analogy when it came to, you know, how a dad always wants to toss his kid up in the air.

00:48:19.740 And I can't remember who said this. And the person who was sharing this analogy said, how high do you toss the child?

00:48:25.140 And the answer was, uh, probably not as high as mom would like, but a little higher than, uh, or excuse me, not as, not as high as dad would like, but a little higher than mom would like.

00:48:35.740 And it's about finding the right place to, uh, toss that child up in the air.

00:48:40.960 It's scary for mom to let dad, uh, lead her, her kids into risk. It's a scary thing.

00:48:48.760 I just, uh, rode on my motorcycle to church this last Sunday. I don't ride very often. Everyone's on their phones.

00:48:55.680 Uh, and so the roads are scarier than when I was riding my bike 20 years ago, but some dudes from church, they were all riding motorcycles to church.

00:49:03.440 They hatched that plan. And so I rode my motorcycle to church as well. And, um, on the way to church, I brought one of my boys on the back every day.

00:49:13.380 When I go to church, I bring one of my boys with me and we have a heart to heart talk and check in and talk about whatever could be facing them.

00:49:21.920 It's just, uh, you know, unfiltered everything, but, but father, son check-in time every Sunday morning.

00:49:28.720 Uh, and so a boy always rides with me to church and then the other boy rides back.

00:49:33.680 So anyway, I was riding a motorcycle and she really didn't feel comfortable with that.

00:49:37.280 And I watched her struggle. Uh, cause she even said, if I don't, I don't feel comfortable.

00:49:44.060 And, um, I'm like this, this is, this is a risk, but, uh, I'm taking these precautions.

00:49:52.940 We're not on big interstates or anything else like that. DOT approved helmets. I'm going to be super safe.

00:49:59.500 And this is something that, that should happen. This is something she should happen.

00:50:03.140 And she had to swallow that and, and, and she did, and she did it bravely.

00:50:07.020 But I watched her even this last Sunday, it was a struggle. It was very, very difficult.

00:50:13.180 My wife can struggle for it because she understands in not letting our boys take risks.

00:50:18.820 And this is not all risk. It's just calculated risk. That's why it can be a conversation.

00:50:22.980 Uh, and so I like what you said, even of higher than mom wants, but not quite as high as dad wants.

00:50:27.660 That's a fun, loving compromise that dad can do. And it's, uh, our desire is dads to be like,

00:50:33.500 no, I'm right. And then, uh, I'm going to do it and don't stand in my way. It's like, no,

00:50:37.360 I'd like to be sweet with my wife and kind to her and, and yield some to her counsel as well.

00:50:43.140 And so, uh, this needs to happen. This other risk, maybe you're, she's right of like, we don't need

00:50:48.900 to do that. Motorcycles are a dumb idea. It's you're straddling an engine on two wheels in a 0.99

00:50:55.300 world where everyone's texting while driving. Uh, it's like, that's a really dumb idea. So to my 0.99

00:51:00.920 wife's point, she's probably right. Um, but, uh, so, um, when I was growing up, I'd go on long,

00:51:08.380 like road trips on the motorcycle with my dad. When I was a boy, I don't really feel comfortable

00:51:13.580 doing that anymore. People just aren't, aren't attuned. And I've been in a pretty bad motorcycle

00:51:18.860 wreck as well. Uh, so it can happen. You can do everything right. And then die on a motorcycle.

00:51:24.260 You could do everything right and die. So, um, anyway, in loving kindness, I'm trying to concede 0.98

00:51:31.880 to my wife some, but recognize if you don't let your boys take risks and do dangerous stuff,

00:51:37.600 you're going to make them weak and they need to be strong. If they're going to be productive

00:51:43.780 members of society, if they're meant to one day grow up and have their own families, they

00:51:48.180 need to be strong, familiar with risk and know how to calculate it and to be able to overcome.

00:51:54.360 And so that start that's in daily life stuff. And so the, the wife risks something terrible 1.00

00:52:01.500 when she doesn't let the boy risk and that she is going to, uh, grow a weak beta male 0.53

00:52:09.200 who's incapable of stewarding a family.

00:52:14.000 You know, one of the things I hear when you talk about this, John, is that your wife trusts

00:52:18.520 you, you know, she trusts you to take him on that, that motorcycle and she's willing to acquiesce

00:52:23.020 to some degree, as long as it's calculated and the precautions have been, been, uh, enacted,

00:52:27.560 but that requires a level of trust. And I see a lot of men. I talk with men every day

00:52:31.940 as you do too, who questioned why their wives won't follow their lead. And I can't help, but

00:52:37.960 wonder why should they, why should they, what in your history of this relationship has proven

00:52:45.560 to her that she can do that? Do you follow through on your word? Um, do you honor your commitments?

00:52:51.280 Do you show up fully? Do you know how to sacrifice for the family? Are you out there just chasing

00:52:55.920 what you want to chase all the time? And I wish more men understood that not because

00:52:59.860 we need to just be subservient to women, but because that's your partner. That's, that's 1.00

00:53:06.400 who you said you wanted to do life with. So if you want her to follow you, then you better

00:53:11.780 be worth following. And when she says, Rebecca says to you, okay, I trust you. Even if she

00:53:16.780 doesn't explicitly say that, but lets you go on the bike ride, that means there's a level

00:53:21.020 of trust that you've built up over years. And so I commend you for that. I just wanted

00:53:24.180 to recognize that and acknowledge that. Thank you. Thank you for that, Ryan. Um, when it

00:53:29.800 comes to leadership, first off elephant in the room, you'd have to ideologically agree

00:53:35.040 that there should be a leader in the marriage. There's a lot of folks out there that think

00:53:39.980 that it should be 50 50. And I understand why that may have the appearance of wisdom. I would 0.86

00:53:47.300 just say, I hear that it doesn't actually work anywhere ever. No company has two CEOs. Uh,

00:53:56.720 a team never has two head coaches. A steer, a car has one steering wheel. Could you imagine

00:54:02.460 if we steered at 50 50 from the passenger seat of like, there'd be a disaster. No, nowhere

00:54:08.840 do you have anything happening where, where you don't have a leader truly. And so a lot of marriages, 0.80

00:54:15.420 I'm sorry, not a lot, all marriages that claim a 50 50 leadership, they're fooling themselves. 0.97

00:54:22.000 Someone is, it is tilted in favor of someone is pulling the strings. It could be that the gal, 0.96

00:54:29.060 you know, whenever she really wants something, she gets emotional, you know, and there's a fight

00:54:34.000 and then there's a cry and he says, I'm sorry. And then they don't do it her way. Uh, or she'll

00:54:38.260 just nag and hen peck and whatnot. And he'll just finally be like, yeah, whatever makes you happy. 0.87

00:54:42.700 And then she's able to kind of emotionally lead that or withhold sex or a woman has a 0.98

00:54:47.840 whole bunch of different levers that she can pull to kind of manipulate and tilt to their 0.95

00:54:52.060 way. And they'll sell themselves and their partner that it's 50 50. It is impossible that

00:54:58.620 it's going to be 50 50. It is tilted one way or the other. It's just a matter of what in

00:55:02.840 our feministic times, uh, women are of the opinion of no man is ever going to tell me what 1.00

00:55:09.940 to do. I'm strong and I'm independent and I'm not submissive to anyone. I'm equal then.

00:55:16.460 And then they go to work pulling all the strings on what they want, but she'll let him choose

00:55:21.620 where we're going to go to eat of like anywhere you want. And then a list like 12 places. And

00:55:26.140 then finally on the 13th, she'll be like, yes, that, and he was fine with any of it, but she

00:55:30.380 saw that as I'm letting him lead. See, I'll eat anywhere you want. And then he says 13 things.

00:55:35.920 And finally on the 13th, she says, okay, sure. If that's what you want. And he's like, it's not

00:55:40.380 what I want. But, uh, the couple is lying to themselves. So first off, you have to decide,

00:55:46.920 do we want to, do we believe that a marriage should have a leader? Right. And then you have 0.70

00:55:53.880 to decide, and that, that leader should be the man. Now, from a secular perspective, good luck winning

00:55:59.720 that argument, especially in today's culture and getting your wife truly on board with it.

00:56:04.340 Uh, maybe if you're a terrific leader, she'll default to really, uh, she'll, she'll default

00:56:11.000 and, and follow your leadership. That's quite a high, high bar. Um, but perhaps if you were

00:56:18.240 exceptional man, you'll get your wife on board. Um, she'll follow you because you're so ridiculously 0.98

00:56:24.840 worthy of it. She'll deny her own desire for control. Very, very difficult to do her own fears 0.93

00:56:32.960 about giving control to you. Even if you were a great leader, most women will not want to submit 1.00

00:56:38.280 to that because they're fearful and they have their own ideas. And, uh, you know, they're trained

00:56:44.680 even from little kids through just all kinds of movie and propaganda. No man should ever tell you

00:56:50.100 what to do, you know? And so they, they're naturally primed to not want to follow. This even goes back to

00:56:56.700 the fall where Eve, uh, is told by God in, in the curse, your desire will be for your husband,

00:57:03.720 but he will rule over you. Uh, so meaning a woman will have a natural desire to take the reins of 0.99

00:57:11.300 leadership that does not belong to her in a marriage. Now in a Christian marriage, like ours, 0.94

00:57:15.260 a biblical marriage, uh, Ephesians five, first Peter three, uh, first Timothy two, first Corinthians

00:57:23.220 11 over and over and over the Bible says the man is the head of the household. A man is the head of 0.95

00:57:30.460 the wife just as much, just like Jesus is the head of the church. And then it'll go on to say words 1.00

00:57:36.840 like she should submit to her husband, follow her husband, obey her husband. And that's, I mean, just 0.97

00:57:43.840 women will screech at the idea of it of like, well, what if he abuses that? What if he makes me do stuff 0.82

00:57:51.520 I don't want to do of like, I don't want to make the same. I want to go out and work for the man,

00:57:55.940 not work for my husband of there's all kinds of fear things that could come up, but just biblically

00:58:00.700 speaking, the wife is called to submit. That means to come under, uh, the leadership of her husband, 0.53

00:58:07.840 meaning the buck stops with him. He is in charge, uh, and you're not. And then the man is supposed to

00:58:13.220 use that authority to exalt his wife and take care of her and make sure that her life is easier than

00:58:19.820 his life. And he's carrying more of a burden than she is. And he's taking care of her and he's relying

00:58:25.980 on her counsel because she's supposed to be your helper. You're the leader and she's the helper,

00:58:30.740 but you're on the same mission, uh, taking care of each other in different roles, your co equal and

00:58:37.720 value, but different in role and responsibility and authority. And, and that's a hard thing to do.

00:58:43.900 The man can't demand it out of his wife. It would do zero good for your, uh, for your, um, 1.00

00:58:50.400 followers to go to their wife in the midst of a fight and be like, I'm in charge and you need to 0.82

00:58:55.020 follow me or you're, you know, not following Bible and where it'd be true. You just wouldn't

00:58:59.580 get anywhere with it. It's just completely stupid. Uh, instead my wife has chosen and it's very difficult 1.00

00:59:07.000 sometimes. And since we've got a lot of reps, it's very easy most of the time for my wife to submit 1.00

00:59:12.240 to me. Cause one, once she found out that when she re submitted to me, what she's doing is respecting

00:59:17.980 me. She's saying, I'm going to follow you because I trust your leadership. I trust your ability. I

00:59:24.840 trust your strength. I trust your wisdom. I respect you. That's what it all means. I hold all your

00:59:33.400 aptitude, your hard work, your decision-making and your leadership in high regard. I respect you.

00:59:39.820 And that's what a man feels when the moment a man feels he has the confidence,

00:59:45.560 follow ship and respect of his wife. He is ready to do wildly romantic, romantic things

00:59:52.140 because she offers that he's ready to, to give her the moon, you know, of like, uh, um, I serve my

01:00:00.300 wife and love my wife and take care of my wife. That's my girl, you know? And so I use my leadership

01:00:07.180 as a way to exalt her. I'm going to make sure we spend more money on her than me. 1.00

01:00:11.740 Well, you know, like a lot of times we'll have a disagreement on something. We'll go with what

01:00:15.780 she thinks because she feels passionate about this. And I don't really have much of a dog in

01:00:19.460 the fight. We'll go with what she said. All right. Yeah, we're, we're good. And other times I just

01:00:22.960 pull rank, particularly when she's low on energy, she's working too hard. She's about to go do some 1.00

01:00:29.680 tasks and she really needs to take a break. I've seen it. And I'm like, maybe, nope, you got to sit

01:00:34.940 this one out. And she's like, I think I should go. I'm like, you should not go. This is what I

01:00:38.680 want you to do. I want you to go upstairs and I want you to watch that, uh, cooking show that you

01:00:44.380 like in the castles thing. And I want you to get some blankets and do that. And then I want you to

01:00:49.560 go antique shopping and you're not going to do these responsibilities. And if anyone asks you,

01:00:53.960 you can just put, make me the bad guy and be like, um, my husband asked me to, to, to sit this

01:01:00.400 one out and I followed him. Uh, and so I'll, uh, my wife is really good at loving our son. She's not 0.96

01:01:06.100 as good at loving herself and I'm going to make sure that she's loved. And so I pulled rank. This

01:01:11.620 happened, uh, this week. I don't pull rank very often. I'm not being like, I'm in charge. She submits,

01:01:17.640 uh, to me because she's submitting to Christ. She's choosing submission. I can't demand it out of her.

01:01:24.020 And so she is choosing to do this because this is, this is a truth and this will hit some people

01:01:28.520 real bad. If you're claiming to be a Christian and you are unsubmissive to your husband, then you 0.86

01:01:33.720 are unsubmissive to Christ. You are in rebellion against what God's structured, ordered, uh, way of

01:01:42.260 how a home should function. You are seizing the mantle of authority. You're, uh, disregarding the

01:01:49.140 authority of your husband. And in so doing, you're disregarding the authority of Christ who authorizes

01:01:53.940 him as the head of the house, just as he is the head of the church. And that's a hard,

01:01:58.520 hard word for a gal to hear. You can't be, uh, a wife can't be submissive to Christ and 1.00

01:02:05.600 unsubmissive to her husband at the same time. You can't do it. And then there's some commentary

01:02:09.260 of what if he asks such and such read first Peter three. You also never have to follow your

01:02:14.240 husband's leadership into sin. So you never have to do that. If it's a sinful thing, disregard what

01:02:20.340 your husband's saying, you don't follow him into sin, but if it's not a sin issue, you're supposed

01:02:24.720 to follow your husband's leadership. And so that's really hard. That's really, really hard

01:02:30.420 for gals to choose to willingly submit to. And it's really hard for guys to not take advantage

01:02:38.280 of that and to be harsh with them and to take the mantle of authority to abuse thinking that

01:02:44.420 she's there to serve you instead of she's there to help on a godly mission in a fallen world.

01:02:51.540 Well, John, it sounds like you're doing, and I know you do a lot of work with obviously helping

01:02:55.680 men, uh, live up to that standard as well. We're going to do an iron council exclusive segment.

01:03:01.900 I got some questions for you, but before we get into that, why don't you let everybody who's

01:03:05.600 listening currently know how to get ahold of you, pick up copies of the books and figure out more

01:03:10.780 about what you guys are up to. Sure. So our website's warrior poet society.com from there, you can find

01:03:16.520 all our, of our social media handles. You'll find warrior poet society on YouTube. You'll

01:03:21.440 find us on Instagram and Facebook and X and, and all the things. If you want to join our inner

01:03:27.500 kind of circle, that's on watch wpsn.com. That's where we have our show, like the rally point,

01:03:33.420 which is like a live call in show. And so that's a little different, uh, but that's our warrior poet

01:03:38.580 app. And so the coolest way where you can kind of join warrior poet society is you get the warrior

01:03:43.140 poet app. Uh, so that that's, that's joining us, but any of that stuff, uh, yeah, I'd appreciate it.

01:03:48.640 Thanks brother. Okay. We'll sync it all up. So the guys know where to go. Appreciate you, John.

01:03:52.780 Thanks, bro. One of the things that we offer inside of our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council is

01:03:58.740 exclusive content with our guests this week. We've got five or six different questions from iron

01:04:04.680 council members where they got to ask John those questions. Now you just listened to the full

01:04:09.120 conversation with the one and only John level. If you do join us in the iron council, you will unlock

01:04:14.480 access to additional questions. Like I said, we had five or six questions this week, but a couple

01:04:19.880 that we had had to do with the warrior poet paradox being dangerous and also being good. Uh, we also

01:04:27.800 talked about what he would do if he were a middle school wrestling coach. John talked a lot about how

01:04:35.060 his wrestling days, uh, as a young man were formative years for him. And we also talked about areas that a

01:04:43.300 father can support his homeschooling wife for their children. A lot of other great questions in there

01:04:48.980 wanted to make that available to you. And I threw a few answers just so you could hear this exclusive

01:04:54.260 content. Make sure you join us inside the iron council. This one comes from William Pinnell. He says,

01:05:01.020 I teach in public school. My wife homeschools our nine-year-old son. I assist by doing PE, art, music,

01:05:08.220 and other quote unquote manly activities as a supplement to her core curriculum. Are there any

01:05:13.820 areas that you might suggest that a father can support his homeschooling wife? For the record,

01:05:18.460 she has a degree in education and special education with 20 years of experience. So she has a strong

01:05:23.500 grasp of her role. I like this couple a lot. I like that, uh, they have taken their kids out of government

01:05:29.820 school, which is a really good move, but he's staying in government school to affect change. Cause right

01:05:35.760 now government school is a fallen institution that is led by the state with a very specific curriculum

01:05:40.840 so that even really good teachers can't paddle upstream fast enough to counteract all the kids

01:05:47.560 being swept down current in a postmodern perverse, uh, an ideologically Marxist way. It's, it's a bad,

01:05:56.940 bad situation. Get your kids out of government schools immediately. Uh, and so they did that. Uh,

01:06:01.880 but he's staying to help try to redeem that institution as well, to be a good light in a

01:06:07.740 very dark place, but their kids aren't suffering the consequences of this ideological, uh, um,

01:06:14.540 toxic place. So I really like the setup, uh, right now. And I just wanted to, to pause and commend that

01:06:21.360 as far as joining with her, when they're younger boys, you should be teaching them how to chop firewood

01:06:26.640 and change oil and vehicles. And this is how we do knots and this is how we start fires. And, uh,

01:06:31.700 here, here's some, uh, here's how to throw a punch and here's let's do jujitsu and let's do hard things

01:06:37.620 and let's hike up a mountain, all that stuff, everything you're using as a man from being able

01:06:43.140 to reset flip breakers and use a power drill, all of that stuff as whenever you have to do anything

01:06:50.520 as a man, you invite your boys in to learn how to do that. And so you build constantly lots of skills

01:06:57.140 that amounts to a rite of passage for your boys. So that, that's, that should always be happening

01:07:01.480 right there. As they become teenagers, you're, you're going to have a time where mom tags out 1.00

01:07:07.000 and dad tags in more where you're teaching him all the skills you need as a man. And it's more life

01:07:13.800 skills and you're teaching them sales and conflict resolution and how taxes work and how, uh,

01:07:20.080 insurance works and how to handle finances and all this other stuff. School is not going to teach

01:07:27.120 them all the most basic stuff that a pro protector provider needs. And so the dad needs to be filling

01:07:32.160 in all that. We rely too much on academia to provide essential skills of masculinity when really our

01:07:39.400 typical curriculums aren't teaching much of the stuff that, that men actually need of like, you need 0.61

01:07:45.540 rhetoric and logic. You need to know how to do sales. Don't you know, salesmen never starve.

01:07:49.720 You need lots of public speaking. You know, you need to be able to do some finance stuff. Do you

01:07:55.180 know anything about investing? That's all the core stuff. You know, it's not algebra too, which is

01:08:00.880 compared to the other stuff, a colossal waste of time. They'll never need algebra too in a job.

01:08:06.080 And right now someone is hot in the comments and be like, that's not true. Uh, because what about an 0.98

01:08:10.320 engineer or whatever of like, all right, take the people that are going to use algebra too and let them

01:08:14.920 go into college or, or, or high, like an apprenticeship to learn that. And let's let

01:08:21.520 the general public learn how to do taxes, which everyone will need and no one's learning in school.

01:08:27.080 Uh, so by design, by design. Yeah. It's to make us stupid with a feeling of education.

01:08:35.120 Yeah. And confusion. 1.00

01:08:39.580 There you go, guys, Mr. John Lovell. Uh, I don't know how you could not help, but really appreciate

01:08:44.260 this guy's message and his clarity and conviction and boldness around the mission that he serves,

01:08:51.980 helping men very similar to what we do here, which is probably why we get along so well.

01:08:56.000 I'm very grateful for John in his example and also his friendship over the years. He's seen me go

01:09:02.680 through some hard times and some good times, and he's been there standing right beside me along the

01:09:07.200 way. I value and respect him for that. Also make sure to support the warrior poet society, support John

01:09:13.360 and his wife by checking out their books, the warrior poet way and his newest book fictional, uh,

01:09:18.620 which is, which is a great read called the lions of Mercer. And then his wife,

01:09:21.720 Rebecca's book boyhood resurrected. I do not think that you will be disappointed with any of those

01:09:27.540 recommendations. So check it out. Um, also share this episode. If somebody needs to hear this,

01:09:32.340 a brother, a colleague, a friend, a coworker, your father, your uncle, your cousin, whoever,

01:09:36.400 uh, share this and tag me, leave that rating review. We're about 9,000 reviews. I really want to

01:09:41.680 crack 10,000. So if you'd help me do that, that'd be a big deal. And if you want to watch this

01:09:46.600 interview conversation, uh, instead of just listen to it, head over to

01:09:50.900 youtube.com slash order of man, 349,000 people following us over there, order of man.com,

01:09:58.780 excuse me, youtube.com slash order of man. All right, gents. That's a lot. Those are your 0.98

01:10:03.860 marching orders. Make it a great day, make it a great week, and let's keep getting after it.

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Order of Man - December 02, 2025

JOHN LOVELL ｜ Injustice Exists When Men Tolerate It

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