Order of Man - JON ACUFF ｜ Stop Procrastination and Start Moving Forward

00:00:00.000 Today, I'm joined by John Acuff, former podcast guest and New York Times bestselling author who has spent years studying why so many of us as men procrastinate and how to finally, maybe for once and for all, get out of our own way.

00:00:14.660 We talk about the real reasons that people stall out, its fear, its rejection, imposter syndrome, perfectionism, all topics we've dived into, and how comparison, when used correctly, can actually become a source of inspiration rather than insecurity.

00:00:31.680 Today, he also shares practical frameworks for focusing on effort instead of obsessing over outcomes, creating our own personal scorecard for success, and adopting what I often call the let's find out mentality when it comes to pursuing goals, navigating uncertainty, and just being successful in life.

00:00:52.000 So guys, if you've ever felt stuck between what you say you want, and what you're really doing in life, this conversation will give you some tools to start closing the gap. Enjoy this one.

00:01:02.480 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:12.420 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:27.800 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. I'm Ryan Michler. I'm your host and founder, and I'm very glad that you're here. I just celebrated my, or our, I should say, 11-year anniversary for Order of Man.

00:01:40.880 So it's been an incredible ride, some ups and downs and highs and lows, both professionally and personally over that time. But here we are going strong, and I'm not stopping anytime soon.

00:01:51.420 I've got a really, really fascinating and great conversation with somebody who I really admire and respect and I've had on the podcast in the past, and I think you're going to like this one.

00:02:01.940 Now, before I do, I just want to mention other people that I admire and respect, and that's my friends over at Montana Knife Company.

00:02:09.540 They're having their grand opening April 11th. If you're in the Frenchtown, Montana area around that time, you may want to go check it out.

00:02:19.500 That is open to the public, I believe, but take a look at montananifecompany.com's website and go visit their brand new facility.

00:02:26.760 I think it's operational now, but that grand opening is coming up very quickly, and I cannot be more proud of those guys.

00:02:34.680 Not that I did anything to help, but I'm very, very proud of my friends when they have success.

00:02:40.640 And if you're looking for a great knife and a great company that makes all of their knives in America, look no further than Montana Knife Company and use the code ORDEROFMAN.

00:02:49.600 All one word, ORDEROFMAN at checkout.

00:02:52.600 All right, guys, let me introduce you to John. Again, he's a New York Times bestselling author.

00:02:57.520 When I said he's a former podcast guest, it made it sound as if that's more impressive than being a New York Times bestselling author.

00:03:04.260 But regardless, he is a speaker. He's a leadership expert.

00:03:07.740 He's known for helping people overcome mental barriers that keep them from doing the best work they can.

00:03:14.600 And over the past decade, he's got multiple bestselling books, including Finish, Give Yourself the Gift of Done, and Soundtracks, The Surprising Solution to Overthinking.

00:03:25.280 We talk a little bit about soundtracks on this podcast today.

00:03:28.380 And he's also spoken to organizations and audiences all over the world about productivity, mindset, achievement, meaningful goals.

00:03:36.500 But in his latest book, Procrastination Proof, he tackles one of the biggest challenges men face when pursuing their dreams and ambitions and desires.

00:03:45.540 And that's getting stuck before they even start.

00:03:49.600 In it, Akaf explores the hidden fears, perfectionism, and internal what he calls mindset villains that lead to procrastination.

00:03:57.280 And he gives us very practical strategies for focusing on action, redefining what success actually looks like, and making progress on the goals that matter most to you.

00:04:09.860 Enjoy this one.

00:04:12.240 John, what's up, man?

00:04:13.240 It's good to see you.

00:04:14.100 It has been years since I've talked with you.

00:04:16.020 But when I saw your team reach out, I thought, yeah, of course, we're going to have John back.

00:04:19.720 No problem.

00:04:20.920 I appreciate that.

00:04:21.800 Yeah, it has been a while.

00:04:22.840 Yeah.

00:04:23.060 You've got a new book coming out, Procrastination Proof.

00:04:27.220 And I think this is a huge issue for a lot of guys.

00:04:31.860 And it seems interesting because all of us procrastinate to some degree.

00:04:37.220 I'm just not really sure we know why we do it.

00:04:40.080 And I wonder if we knew why we'd be able to combat it a little better.

00:04:44.320 Yeah, I think, I mean, it comes down to a couple of things.

00:04:47.140 But at the core, it's just a fear.

00:04:50.240 Usually, there's something you're afraid of actually doing.

00:04:53.060 And we use procrastination as a bad solution to that problem.

00:04:57.440 Meaning, we're trying to avoid an awkward conversation.

00:05:00.140 We're trying to avoid asking for a raise.

00:05:02.040 We're trying to avoid the rejection of writing our book and having 10 publishers say, no, thank you.

00:05:07.280 So we procrastinate on the things that ultimately we're afraid to actually do.

00:05:13.100 Do you, so this kind of leads me into something that actually really bothers me.

00:05:19.540 And I'm curious about what you think, is I hear this all the time.

00:05:23.080 This idea of imposter syndrome, I hate it.

00:05:26.240 I hate it.

00:05:26.840 I hate when I hear guys say it.

00:05:28.640 I cringe when I hear it.

00:05:31.360 What do you hate about it?

00:05:31.620 I hate that people put too much stock in who they think they should be rather than who they currently are.

00:05:41.400 Do you think that's an issue?

00:05:42.800 Like, I'm not worth doing this or it's not, like, I'm not the guy or whatever it might be.

00:05:47.800 And that keeps people from doing what they want to do?

00:05:50.100 Oh, yeah, 100%.

00:05:52.880 I mean, I think imposter syndrome, well, part of it, you have to realize we have more access to more people than we've ever had access to.

00:06:00.740 So if you think about Instagram feeding imposter syndrome, no wonder it's a big issue.

00:06:07.180 So, yeah, I do think there's that sense of, I was talking to a comedian today, interviewed a comedian,

00:06:11.660 and he was talking about another younger comedian who was comparing himself to more successful comedians.

00:06:17.360 And he said, you're the 1% of the 1%.

00:06:19.960 You're already touring 48, you know, weekends a year just because you're not Nate Bargatze.

00:06:25.300 Like, if you look ahead and you go, okay, well, I'm not that, then, yeah, you totally miss what you've currently accomplished

00:06:31.720 and what success could really look like.

00:06:34.720 So how do you get over that in this digital world where we can see what everybody's doing,

00:06:40.920 we can see who the New York Times bestselling authors are like yourself,

00:06:43.900 we can see who's got 100,000 followers or a million followers versus who has 1,000.

00:06:51.160 I actually think there's a place for healthy comparison.

00:06:54.820 Maybe you think I'm wrong or maybe you disagree with that,

00:06:57.780 but how do you find the balance between looking at what people are doing and saying,

00:07:02.540 okay, that motivates and inspires me versus that threatens me or that frustrates me?

00:07:13.900 I agree with you 100%.

00:07:15.060 I think comparison done in the service of education is great.

00:07:19.820 Comparison done in the service of inspiration is great.

00:07:22.620 Where you go, okay, I'm not where that person is, but I can learn for them.

00:07:26.440 Their success has left clues.

00:07:28.560 They've left a path.

00:07:30.080 I can, they're 10 years ahead of me and if I pay attention, maybe I can shave a year off of my journey.

00:07:35.040 Like, what does that look like?

00:07:36.620 That's a great, to me, that's a great form of comparison.

00:07:39.320 I think the way you deal with it ultimately is you have your own definition of success,

00:07:44.420 your own scorecard, if you will, and you fight like it for crazy.

00:07:47.820 Like, you fight like it as a crazy person.

00:07:50.840 Like, no, this is my definition.

00:07:52.100 This is my definition.

00:07:53.240 This is my scorecard.

00:07:54.580 In the absence of a scorecard, your brain doesn't stop asking, how are we doing?

00:07:59.040 It just looks at somebody else's.

00:08:00.880 Your brain wants to know, like, are we where we're supposed to be?

00:08:03.900 Are we making progress?

00:08:05.200 It'd kind of be like, I think a lot of people, you know, it's like a friend who won't tell you which turn to make when they're navigating until the last second.

00:08:14.200 Like, we want to know, like, oh, hey, up ahead, we're taking this right.

00:08:17.540 There's a lot of people that don't have their own definition of success, so your brain goes, okay, are we doing okay?

00:08:22.960 Are we making the right moves?

00:08:24.720 Are we, where are we supposed to be at 34, 35?

00:08:27.460 And if you don't work on your answer, you start to look at other people's tests.

00:08:33.220 You start to look at their results and go, okay, well, I'm not, you know, where I want to be.

00:08:38.220 So for me, it's about going, okay, I know my definition of success.

00:08:42.520 Like, I know, you know, the goals I have for my marriage, for my parenting, for my fitness.

00:08:48.320 Like, I don't have to compare to somebody else, I just have to stare so hard at my definition, I don't even have room or space to look at somebody else's.

00:08:59.860 Yeah, that makes sense.

00:09:01.020 I've fallen into that trap, especially early on in my, this career where, you know, we all have multiple careers.

00:09:06.620 So this career where I've, I've looked at other people and I'm like, oh, okay, so I'm supposed to go train jujitsu and I'm supposed to go shoot guns and I'm supposed to, you know, be the pinnacle of health.

00:09:20.040 I would get into bow hunting probably.

00:09:21.760 Yeah, bow hunting.

00:09:22.480 Right.

00:09:22.680 And that's actually part of the reason I got into bow hunting, but I actually like it.

00:09:25.760 So that one worked out.

00:09:27.680 That one stuck.

00:09:28.840 That one stuck.

00:09:29.700 Yeah.

00:09:29.960 Yeah, and I, I mean, I like the idea of experimentation, but also it seems like I'm trying to, and I know a lot of guys feel this way because of the conversations we've had where they're trying to gain indirect validation for a thing, whether it's being a man or being a business owner or being a husband or whatever.

00:09:52.180 And they start chasing around what everybody else is doing and then they wonder why they don't ever feel fulfilled or whole.

00:09:58.140 It's like, you're chasing somebody else's dream.

00:10:00.020 You're not chasing your own.

00:10:02.260 Yeah.

00:10:02.720 And I think I like your word experimentation.

00:10:04.940 I like the word audition.

00:10:05.980 I like to audition goals.

00:10:07.660 Like I like to do a, I tell people, you know, date, don't marry.

00:10:11.540 Like the part of the reason new year's resolutions fail so consistently is you try to do something for a year.

00:10:16.980 You've never done for a day.

00:10:18.740 I'd much rather you go, Hey, I'm going to, especially guys, guys do this with new sports, new hobbies.

00:10:24.580 They make it their entire personality.

00:10:26.300 Like week one, they get all the gear and like a month in they go, I don't even really, this doesn't even light me up.

00:10:32.940 Like that for me was cycling.

00:10:34.380 I was like, Oh, I live in an area where a lot of guys ride bikes.

00:10:38.020 I'm like, Oh, maybe I'm supposed to be a cyclist.

00:10:39.720 I'd always been a runner.

00:10:40.780 I bought a way too expensive bike, carbon fiber, like all this stuff.

00:10:45.120 I rode it for maybe 500 miles and then it hung on my wall, like a, like a monument of shame for like a year and a half.

00:10:53.020 I eventually just sold it back to the bike store.

00:10:55.280 I could have borrowed somebody's bike in the neighborhood.

00:10:58.640 There are guys in my neighborhood who would have been like, Oh, of course come with us on some rides.

00:11:02.600 I could have tested it and known pretty quickly, this ain't it.

00:11:06.280 This isn't my thing.

00:11:07.220 This doesn't light me up.

00:11:08.280 I need to do something else.

00:11:09.520 So now I try to teach people that, like, what would it look like for you to audition this for a week, for two weeks, for a one month test before you go all in and try to make it your entire personality?

00:11:20.840 Bro, that is, that is gold right there.

00:11:22.860 You know, I, I actually had a conversation with a friend of mine just yesterday and he retired from the police force after 25 years in New Jersey.

00:11:30.840 He's a very close friend of mine.

00:11:32.220 Good person.

00:11:33.500 Just one of the most solid men I know.

00:11:36.060 And I can say this because I know he'd be okay with me saying it, but he's been struggling as he's moved into retirement.

00:11:41.260 Like, how do I find my purpose?

00:11:42.940 What's what, what am I doing with my life?

00:11:45.340 And he's like, the other day, he's like, Oh, I'm trying to stay busy.

00:11:47.800 I'm like, dude, like staying busy with what?

00:11:50.540 Like doing chores around the house, like fixing the fence.

00:11:53.340 I'm like, that sounds lame.

00:11:55.060 And he's like, yeah, it is lame.

00:11:56.520 I said, you need something better.

00:11:57.680 And we had talked about, um, with his, with his experience, he was like, well, you know, maybe I could start something teaching, teaching guys how to shoot pistols and basic, you know, civilian based, uh, defense.

00:12:10.860 And I said, yeah, that's awesome.

00:12:12.360 And he's like, I don't know about the business and I don't know about insurance.

00:12:15.720 I said, hold on, hold on.

00:12:16.700 Maybe just call one of your buddies who's already doing it and ask if you can go be an instructor for the pistol course this weekend and see if you even like it.

00:12:26.320 Yeah.

00:12:26.740 Start there.

00:12:27.580 So you just gave a great example of men will tell me they want to start a side hustle and go, but I don't want to be a distant dad or like have my marriage fall apart.

00:12:36.580 And I'm like, you haven't even registered a URL yet.

00:12:39.580 What are you talking?

00:12:40.420 Like you're already a distant dad in this story.

00:12:43.500 Like you don't have to go, but men love to go from nothing to trying everything all at once.

00:12:48.660 And so I, I love when we can do a measured pace, like you telling your friend, like, what if you just called up the buddy who's already doing it?

00:12:55.960 Cause he's already worrying about step 38 insurance policies on a business that doesn't exist yet.

00:13:02.720 That's like, you know, I'll have men tell me, well, I want to write a book, but I don't want it.

00:13:06.540 I wouldn't want the content to get stolen online.

00:13:08.800 I'm like, the book doesn't exist.

00:13:10.820 You're worried about copyright lawyers.

00:13:12.660 Like, what are we talking about?

00:13:14.180 Like write a page, like let's start there and then we'll write a second page and then we'll go.

00:13:19.280 But sometimes we go so far down to the future and find a problem that hasn't happened yet.

00:13:24.240 And then we waste real time fixing fictional problems and then you never move forward.

00:13:30.020 Yeah.

00:13:30.320 I like that real time.

00:13:32.500 I'm taking notes, fixing fictional problems.

00:13:36.380 Yeah, that's awesome.

00:13:37.480 So do you feel like that lends to procrastination when a guy goes from dream or loose idea to like jumping ahead 37 steps?

00:13:51.540 Like, does that become overwhelming?

00:13:53.720 And he's like, if I can't do it to the nth degree, then I'm not going to do it at all.

00:13:57.220 Oh, yeah.

00:13:58.280 Yeah.

00:13:58.520 To me, that kind of gets into perfectionism.

00:14:01.720 Perfectionists have two speeds, all or nothing.

00:14:04.020 And like a true perfectionist would rather get a zero than a C minus.

00:14:08.560 So I meet men that will tell me, John, my goal every day is to run three miles a day for the next 20 days.

00:14:14.360 But today I only had time for two, so I did none.

00:14:16.760 And you want to say, dude, two is way more than none.

00:14:20.000 Of course.

00:14:20.320 But because they couldn't do it perfectly, they didn't do it at all.

00:14:22.920 So that's where you start to see perfectionism kind of increase procrastination.

00:14:28.140 It's really – I write books about what I would call like the mindset villains, things like perfectionism, overthinking, procrastination, because none of these are physical.

00:14:37.920 They're not physical issues you wrestle.

00:14:40.180 They're all mindset issues that get in the way of what we're capable of.

00:14:43.860 And so perfectionism is where I see that, where people go from all or nothing.

00:14:47.940 It's not sustainable.

00:14:49.160 It's not something they can actually make part of their life.

00:14:53.520 And they want – they feel like they – you know, we say things like go big or go home, and the majority of people go home.

00:14:59.080 So it's not sexy or like loud to say let's figure out a sustained, growing, gradual pace to this.

00:15:07.000 But my thing, dude, now at this age, I'm 50, I want to be in shape at 80.

00:15:11.800 Like I want to be able to get on the ground and wrestle with my grandkids if I'm blessed to have grandkids.

00:15:16.560 So I'm looking at it and going, okay, I could overdo it now for like six months in my 50s and maybe get hurt and miss a year.

00:15:25.080 Or I could build a sustainable fitness program that at 80 I'm in great shape, at 70 I'm in great shape, at 60 I'm in great shape.

00:15:32.800 And that's completely different.

00:15:34.440 So being around other men who challenge me but not from a competitive I have to keep up with them.

00:15:40.220 Like I do this workout called F3 in the mornings and I absolutely love it.

00:15:43.440 I'm super familiar. Frank Schwartz is a good friend of mine. Great program.

00:15:47.280 Dude, love it. Love it. And the other day a guy who led it was 31. He's 19 years younger than me.

00:15:52.860 It would be pure ego-based fear for me to think I have to do the same sandbag workout as that dude.

00:16:00.000 He's 31. I'm 50. Like we have different fitness levels. We have different knees. We have different shoulders.

00:16:05.760 So for me, the sustainable, the older I get, the more I'm like, ooh, I want this thing that I've tested.

00:16:12.600 You with bow hunting. I want to be able to do it for a long time and have the joy and the strength of it for a long time.

00:16:18.960 What does sustainable look like?

00:16:21.420 Do you feel like that long-term perspective helps you make more prudent decisions?

00:16:26.500 I've noticed that for myself when I think about the short-term benefit of a decision I'll be making.

00:16:34.260 I tend to be a lot more emotional in my decision-making process and far less prudent.

00:16:41.040 But when I extend it out over a course of 10 years or 20 years or 30 years, it seems like it's easier for me to say,

00:16:49.580 yeah, I'm interested in that, or no, thank you, and be a little bit more decisive in my decision-making process.

00:16:57.780 Yeah, 100%.

00:16:58.960 What I teach in the book, one of the things is this principle of make tomorrow easy today.

00:17:04.400 That's all discipline is. Make tomorrow easy today.

00:17:07.500 So the micro version of that is I used to have a hard time getting up in the morning because of what night me did.

00:17:13.880 The night before, I hadn't made good decisions, so morning me had a hard time getting up.

00:17:17.860 They were at odds. Morning me wanted to get after it, and night me wasn't making that easy.

00:17:22.980 So I got them in alignment. So now night me hooks up morning me.

00:17:27.480 Morning me also isn't a good planner. By the time the day started, 8 a.m. with emails and phone calls,

00:17:33.800 if I don't have a plan, I'm doomed. But night me is a great planner.

00:17:37.900 At 6 p.m., when the rest of the world isn't asking me for my time or my attention,

00:17:42.580 I spend 20 minutes coming up with a plan.

00:17:44.400 Again, morning me will run through a wall if you just tell them which wall.

00:17:48.720 So I wake up in the morning. It's like, oh, I'm not deciding if I'm working out.

00:17:51.760 That decision was made by night me. It's morning me's time. Let's go.

00:17:55.520 So then to your point, you extended out, and I started to go, what can Monday me do to hook up Friday me?

00:18:00.960 I want to have an easy Friday afternoon, so what can Monday me do to send gifts to that person's future?

00:18:08.200 And then you go, okay, what can July me do that benefits October me?

00:18:14.420 And then you start to go, okay, what can I do at 50 that benefits 60?

00:18:18.880 Like, we write our letters the wrong direction.

00:18:21.340 We always say, like, what would you tell your 20-year-old self?

00:18:24.140 Number one, he wouldn't have listened. I was there. He was very cocky.

00:18:27.180 He was very afraid. He was very secure.

00:18:29.980 Arrogant. He's not looking for wisdom.

00:18:31.940 He would have been like, whatever, old man.

00:18:33.360 And he's gone. That person's gone.

00:18:36.360 The 60-year-old me still exists.

00:18:38.440 That's a real person I'm really going to become.

00:18:41.340 So I think about extending it out and going, what gifts do I send to that person based on my decisions today?

00:18:47.120 And again, it works on the micro level. It works on the macro level.

00:18:50.320 And then you start, it gets really fun to go, okay, I'm going to hook up summer me.

00:18:53.720 Like, what is winter me going to do that hooks up summer me?

00:18:56.400 Like, okay, what is, you know, and all of a sudden, you've got this really, you know, kind of fun rhythm to your life,

00:19:02.060 and discipline doesn't feel as hard.

00:19:04.080 That's interesting.

00:19:05.260 I mean, I, as you were saying that, I think about that in the micro with fast food.

00:19:10.560 Like, I would love to go demolish a double Whopper with cheese and, you know,

00:19:16.140 or my go-to is the double wake bacon western cheeseburger from Carl's Jr.

00:19:21.080 I would love to demolish that.

00:19:22.360 I would eat that right now in a heartbeat.

00:19:23.600 And I know this afternoon, forget about the rest of the day.

00:19:27.540 Like, I'm not, I'm going to sleep.

00:19:29.280 Game over.

00:19:29.540 I'm going to be bloated.

00:19:30.320 I'm going to feel tired.

00:19:31.240 So in the micro, did, did you, so you were talking about something a minute ago,

00:19:35.680 you were talking about these mindset villains, and I wrote this down.

00:19:38.500 I, I don't know if it was you who introduced me to this years ago or somebody else.

00:19:43.140 Did you introduce me to the concept of noble obstacles?

00:19:46.600 Is that something you're familiar with?

00:19:48.380 Yep.

00:19:49.240 That was, uh, that was, uh, in my book, um, finish.

00:19:52.340 Yes.

00:19:52.820 Okay.

00:19:53.040 So I did there.

00:19:54.380 Go ahead.

00:19:54.840 Go ahead.

00:19:55.240 Yeah, that was, that was us.

00:19:56.280 No, I was just going to say the concept was where you, you know, put noble obstacles in

00:20:01.500 your way to prevent yourself from really doing it.

00:20:03.540 And the example I give in the book is a guy I know who was like, his wife was desperate

00:20:08.020 for them to clean out the garage so they could park inside.

00:20:10.440 Like, it's a very common suburban goal.

00:20:12.920 And he was like, well, I will do that.

00:20:14.940 But first I want to do, uh, I want to hold a yard sale and an estate sale.

00:20:19.360 And I, and he added all these things that on the surface felt like, wow, that's what,

00:20:23.440 how noble of you to go to all that trouble.

00:20:25.520 He was just adding obstacles instead of doing what ultimately mattered.

00:20:28.980 His wife didn't care about making $82 all day, Saturday selling to weirdos.

00:20:34.540 Like she wanted the garage empty, but he was like, well, if we do it, we're going to do

00:20:38.700 it right.

00:20:39.160 Like we're really going to, so yeah, that's the concept of noble obstacles.

00:20:42.580 Well, it came up when you were talking about the guy who was, who was like, what did you

00:20:47.440 say?

00:20:47.700 Well, one I think about a lot is guys who were like, you know, I'd really like to work

00:20:51.520 out and I'd like to get in shape, but you know, I just want to spend time with my kids.

00:20:55.720 I'm like, what are you talking about?

00:20:57.980 Yeah.

00:20:58.340 Like we throw our kids under the bus.

00:21:00.780 We really do like, dude, as if your kid had ever been like, I don't want you doing body

00:21:05.640 weight workouts in between dinner, no pushups, dad.

00:21:08.600 I'll feel abandoned as a child.

00:21:10.280 If you do pushups, like, or you're like, that's what I love about at three.

00:21:13.940 It's five 30 in the morning.

00:21:15.040 And the reality is if you say to like, sometimes guys will be like, well, I don't, you know,

00:21:19.500 my wife probably wouldn't want me doing it.

00:21:21.040 There's no wife on the planet or good wife.

00:21:23.320 I should say there's, there's bad men and women obviously, but that would say, no, I don't

00:21:28.180 want you getting up early and getting in shape and getting male community and feeling accomplished

00:21:31.560 the rest of the day and having endorphins and, you know, having better mental health.

00:21:35.080 Like, no, I definitely don't want that for you.

00:21:36.820 Like she would, but we, as men, sometimes we'll use our families as excuses for dreams

00:21:42.400 who are afraid of chasing.

00:21:44.140 It's just such a weak, I look, I'm saying this and I'm chastising it, but I'm sure I

00:21:50.140 do it subconsciously, but it's just such a weak argument.

00:21:54.780 Like, oh, uh, I'm going to, I'm going to use my kids or my wife as a shield for my own.

00:22:02.840 So if you say it out loud, you recognize it.

00:22:05.500 Yeah.

00:22:05.680 And we've, I think, yeah, I'm the same with you.

00:22:07.720 Like I've, I know I've done that before.

00:22:09.980 And my wife has said to me, we've had conversations where say we're taking some business risk.

00:22:14.460 She's like, don't you blame me if you pull back on this.

00:22:17.740 I've given you the green light.

00:22:19.080 Like, don't you dare go.

00:22:20.680 Well, Jenny wasn't all in it.

00:22:22.280 Like she said, I mean, we've been married 25 years as April.

00:22:25.580 So she's very clear about like, Hey, this adventure you feel called to, don't you dare try to say

00:22:31.880 I slowed you down or I held you back because this is me right now saying, go, go, go.

00:22:37.480 I believe in you.

00:22:38.320 You're capable.

00:22:39.300 You can do this.

00:22:40.240 And that, that changes a relationship.

00:22:43.380 Well, first congrats on the upcoming 25 years, you know, a quarter of a century.

00:22:47.460 That's a huge accomplishment.

00:22:48.560 So congrats to that.

00:22:49.720 Thanks man.

00:22:50.780 Um, but it's interesting when I was doing financial planning and I know, I know you have

00:22:54.440 some background in that cause you were part of the Ramsey team for a while, but when

00:22:58.060 I was doing financial planning, I had a mentor, I did a, I did like a client meeting and I

00:23:03.820 had a mentor sit in on it with me and kind of shadow me a little bit.

00:23:07.240 And we got done and he's like, Hey Ryan, you do something really interesting and you

00:23:10.480 shouldn't do it anymore.

00:23:11.260 And I said, what do I do?

00:23:12.400 He's like, you make decisions for people.

00:23:16.160 And I, and I said, what, like, what do you mean?

00:23:18.640 He's like, well, we had this plan.

00:23:20.280 You and I sat down together and we told his client that they needed to invest a thousand

00:23:23.640 dollars a month and then you presented the plan and you did a great job.

00:23:28.140 But then you said, but I know that's a lot of money, but I don't know if that's comfortable

00:23:33.440 for you, but I don't know if this, and he's like, the client didn't say any of that.

00:23:38.460 You said that those are your own limitations that you're projecting onto your potential

00:23:43.840 client.

00:23:44.460 And guess what the client did less than what you said, even though they would have done

00:23:48.820 exactly what we would have recommended if you didn't make a decision for them.

00:23:53.100 Yeah.

00:23:55.500 Yeah.

00:23:55.820 Well, and sometimes we do that.

00:23:57.560 I think we're afraid it's going to happen.

00:23:59.780 So we beat somebody to the punch.

00:24:01.760 So like we're afraid they're going to say no.

00:24:04.600 So we pre say no for them.

00:24:06.380 We're afraid it's not going to be successful.

00:24:08.800 So we go ahead and plan for like, we over plan for the worst and go, well, it, you know,

00:24:13.960 like you, you're kind of beat, you know, beating somebody to the punch when it comes to

00:24:17.980 rejection.

00:24:18.680 So you, we sometimes will pre reject ourselves in a moment like that.

00:24:22.340 So you were, you were, you know, one using disclaimers, but I know this, you know, like,

00:24:27.900 and then also going, you know, but if you don't want to do it, I've already mentally prepared

00:24:32.660 that you're probably not going to do it.

00:24:34.300 So it won't hurt as much.

00:24:35.540 I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of men where we think big hope equals big hurt.

00:24:40.620 And we don't think we'll have enough of us on the other side to survive it.

00:24:43.720 And so we play it safe because play small means small hurt.

00:24:48.480 And I can survive a small hurt where if I really go for it and I'm not capable, will

00:24:53.720 I have enough of me on the other side to either even weather it?

00:24:57.860 Do you feel like guys, I'm trying not to lead when I say this question, but do you, do you

00:25:03.040 feel like guys over attach themselves to the outcome?

00:25:10.000 Meaning like, this is only worthwhile if what I want to have happen will happen.

00:25:15.600 And they just put too much of an index on the achievement rather than the process.

00:25:21.060 Yeah.

00:25:21.520 A hundred percent.

00:25:22.280 And you see guys like I did an event with Nick Saban and he talks about that all the

00:25:26.480 time.

00:25:26.720 Like ignore the outcome over focus on the process.

00:25:29.500 Like he's very much a like, Hey, no, like, and same with like writing a book.

00:25:33.880 If you think about it, like the high of receiving your book, like the first time you open it up

00:25:39.380 and you've got a box of them, it's on your porch.

00:25:41.360 Like that lasts a couple hours, maybe a day, but the process to write it might've taken a

00:25:46.120 year or two.

00:25:47.280 So you have to figure out ways to stay excited, stay connected because otherwise you get that

00:25:54.180 one day and you're like, this just wasn't worth it.

00:25:56.740 Um, so I, I mean, I think it's human nature to overfocus on the results.

00:26:00.940 Um, but I think any form of excellence requires you to find fulfillment along the way because

00:26:08.700 the, the moments you think are going to be the moments are so few and far between.

00:26:13.020 Like I, I spend my entire year trying to get on 50 stages to speak for 45 minutes a pop.

00:26:19.640 Like I trade 365 days for whatever amount was that 2000, you know, like not even it's

00:26:26.580 what 50 hours.

00:26:27.680 Like it's not even a long weekend.

00:26:29.540 Yeah.

00:26:30.000 And so imagine if I told you, Oh, only the speeches that if like the speech is the only

00:26:34.840 thing, but no, I have to find ways to serve clients in between.

00:26:37.960 I have to find ways to get fulfillment from writing the content from practicing the content

00:26:42.960 because otherwise, if I put it all on the results, the results, again, sometimes the

00:26:48.920 results of writing a book takes three years and it's just the, and then the book is out

00:26:52.980 and nobody knows like, and you have to talk about it more than you're comfortable.

00:26:56.420 So like there's all these things you have to fall in love with along the way, or I just

00:27:01.680 don't, I just don't think people actually do what they're called to do.

00:27:04.380 So how do you find the right balance though?

00:27:06.960 Because I think it is important to say, okay, I'm oriented towards this outcome.

00:27:12.220 That's my objective.

00:27:13.780 And, and if without that you would just do the weirdest stuff, you're aimless.

00:27:17.920 Right, exactly.

00:27:18.720 Yeah.

00:27:19.100 So how do you balance between, okay, this is where I'm going.

00:27:22.220 This is where I want to go, but also I want to stop looking at that.

00:27:25.800 And now I want to focus on what I'm currently doing.

00:27:28.920 Yeah.

00:27:29.300 I mean, I think it's a tension.

00:27:30.480 I think the longer I live, the more I realize a lot of life is holding two opposite things

00:27:35.220 in your hands at the same time.

00:27:36.880 So for instance, like I think great leaders accept uncertainty.

00:27:41.380 They recognize there's so much uncertainty in what I'm doing that I don't control.

00:27:45.380 I don't control the government, the weather, like whenever another man is like, the economy

00:27:49.700 is just not the right time to grow my business.

00:27:51.580 I'm like, if you're waiting for the economy or like the government, like if you're waiting

00:27:55.060 for the government to behave so that you can do your dream, I have terrible news for

00:27:58.460 you.

00:27:58.600 Like it's not going to happen.

00:27:59.920 But you accept the uncertainty and then you increase certainty.

00:28:03.940 You work as hard as you can on the pieces you control.

00:28:06.780 So you're doing both of those.

00:28:08.480 You're accepting.

00:28:09.400 So I think that's what it is, is like you do need the true north of the final destination

00:28:13.220 to the best of your ability.

00:28:14.780 You don't need to know it perfectly because what happens with men is men have mutated Stephen

00:28:19.960 Covey's habit, begin with the end in mind, into I can't begin until I know the end.

00:28:25.400 And it's often until it's perfect, until I've got the plan.

00:28:28.680 I can't begin until I know the end.

00:28:30.700 And like, I know a guy that spent six months trying to figure out his why.

00:28:34.080 Didn't change any of his life.

00:28:35.820 Just like spent six months trying to figure out his why, almost as if as soon as I know

00:28:40.140 that, once I have my end, it'll all take care of itself.

00:28:44.420 It'll all.

00:28:44.840 And so for me, yes, you have to have the final thing you're trying to do.

00:28:48.160 It's often fuzzy, but you also live in the now and you have to go today's task that gets

00:28:53.760 me there eventually is this.

00:28:55.340 I talked to Sean Johnson, the Olympian the other day, and she was saying when she was

00:29:00.020 like eight years old, her coach mapped out a path to the Olympics, like a multi-year path

00:29:06.460 down to like this Friday, here's what we're going to do.

00:29:09.780 And next Thursday, here's what we're going to do.

00:29:11.540 Cause that's where she lived.

00:29:12.740 She was an eight year old girl.

00:29:13.580 She was a long way away from, I got an Olympic gold, but he wanted to show her the path and

00:29:19.300 then get her to believe in the big thing.

00:29:21.160 Cause it'll keep you going, but also do the little things along the way that are in the

00:29:26.360 now.

00:29:27.260 Right.

00:29:28.540 Yeah.

00:29:28.940 I've, I've embraced this idea and I don't, I don't want to steal credit for it.

00:29:32.940 I kind of do want to steal credit for it because I thought, I think I thought about it, but

00:29:36.560 also I don't want to just in case somebody else did.

00:29:38.680 But it's this idea of, I just call it the let's find out mentality because I've, I've

00:29:45.200 talked with so many guys who are like, even, even in my own endeavors, they're like, well,

00:29:50.100 what if that doesn't work?

00:29:51.160 Like, what if this, what if that?

00:29:52.560 I'm like, yeah, you, you might be a hundred percent right, but let's find out.

00:29:56.580 Like, wouldn't I want to just ride it and see?

00:29:59.420 And I wish more men embrace this.

00:30:02.220 Yeah.

00:30:02.540 It might not work out.

00:30:03.680 I might go down in a blaze of glory, but I want to know, like, is that a personality

00:30:08.480 thing or is that a developmental thing?

00:30:10.020 Were you always that way?

00:30:11.280 Would you say that like in high school you were that way or have you grown into it?

00:30:14.800 No, I think I've grown.

00:30:15.980 That's a good question.

00:30:16.920 I think I've grown into it.

00:30:18.340 I was a lot more timid and bashful and shy about exerting myself and putting myself out

00:30:23.940 there.

00:30:24.380 And now I'm like, F and send it, just send it, figure it out.

00:30:29.440 Like, let's see.

00:30:30.240 I want to find out.

00:30:31.060 I want to know.

00:30:32.760 Sure.

00:30:33.440 Sure.

00:30:34.380 Yeah.

00:30:34.580 So for me, I mean, I think there's, we talk about this a lot.

00:30:38.440 There's a question of, can you turn somebody into a killer or a killer's born?

00:30:43.120 Like our phrase, we use our house as killer.

00:30:44.760 Oh, that person's a killer.

00:30:45.940 We also say like, I wouldn't bet against them.

00:30:48.220 There's some people I bet against, but we often say like, I wouldn't bet against them.

00:30:51.860 And so I don't, you know, I don't know if it's nature or nurture.

00:30:57.520 I asked a sports psychologist that question recently.

00:31:00.760 He deals with Formula One all the way from, from cart all the way up to, you know, F1,

00:31:05.800 Formula One teams.

00:31:06.880 And I said, can you make a killer?

00:31:08.420 And he said, no, but you can make the environment for a killer to come out.

00:31:11.840 He said, I, where I see it as young kids who's have a dad and it's their dream that they do

00:31:18.080 F1 eventually burn out.

00:31:19.780 They give up.

00:31:20.340 Like, because it was the dad's dream anyway.

00:31:22.880 And the kid wasn't going to do the tough things it took.

00:31:25.320 He said, but then you see these kids where it's like at eight, at 10, at 12, at 15, they're

00:31:30.100 like, oh, I'm not, I'm not stopping.

00:31:32.060 Like I asked, uh, John, John Hackleman, he was Chuck Liddell's trainer for ever.

00:31:36.940 I said, what can't you train?

00:31:38.880 And he said, there's two things I can't train.

00:31:40.780 I can't train chin and I can't train heart.

00:31:43.300 He said, I can't train if your chin has the nerve in the wrong place and you get knocked

00:31:46.940 out easily.

00:31:47.460 They're like, glass jaw is a real thing.

00:31:49.600 So number two, I can't train heart.

00:31:51.840 Like he said, Chuck would get more excited when he got hit in the face.

00:31:55.100 Like he would get excited and happy by getting, there's a lot of dudes, that's not their response

00:32:00.460 to getting punched in the face.

00:32:02.160 And he said, so I think there is part of that where it's like, you're let's find out.

00:32:06.520 But what I would, the one caveat to add to that is that's part of why we need community.

00:32:10.600 Because even if you don't have a let's find out attitude, if you have a leader or if you

00:32:15.500 have a core of guys that are, that are kind of living that way, you'll get swept up in

00:32:20.520 a positive way.

00:32:21.460 Like we know peer pressure works.

00:32:23.320 So does positive peer pressure.

00:32:25.340 That's why men need other men because it's impossible to call yourself to exactly what you're

00:32:30.640 capable of.

00:32:31.200 In my opinion, like whenever somebody says, oh, everybody's doing the best they can.

00:32:35.200 No, they're not.

00:32:35.860 They're doing the best they think they can.

00:32:37.700 And there's a big difference between those two things.

00:32:40.060 They've usually set their, their maximum less than what they're actually capable of.

00:32:45.560 And that's part of the reason we need relationships.

00:32:49.320 Men, let's put a pause on that conversation very briefly.

00:32:51.920 I know you're into it.

00:32:52.820 I was into it too when we were having the conversation, but I want to share something

00:32:56.580 with you.

00:32:57.620 I've got to have you come out to the men's forge.

00:32:59.620 It's April 23rd to the 26th.

00:33:01.680 It's a multi-day experience event.

00:33:06.460 I mean, you name it, we've, we've got it all.

00:33:09.000 I want to talk about one aspect because it is designed to help men step away from the

00:33:13.880 noise of everyday life and reconnect with something a lot of us are missing.

00:33:18.520 And that is meaningful brotherhood with other men in this culture that we live in.

00:33:23.740 We're often pushed towards isolation and the men's forge brings us together, challenging

00:33:29.920 outdoor environments, experiences.

00:33:32.920 We can train, we can learn, we can have honest conversations about inadequacies, deficiencies,

00:33:39.720 leadership, family struggles, addiction, things that we've done well, things we haven't

00:33:45.500 done, done so well.

00:33:46.500 And all the responsibilities that we carry as men.

00:33:50.140 And while I, I actually tend to lean more towards the physical challenges and training

00:33:54.660 because it is powerful.

00:33:56.480 One of the greatest benefits of the men's forge is that connection that's formed between men

00:34:02.080 who are committed to growth and each other's growth.

00:34:05.080 I've seen friends who have met at our experiences and events.

00:34:09.640 And after nine or 10 years, still really good friends talk on almost weekly basis, business

00:34:16.120 partnerships formed.

00:34:17.380 It's pretty incredible.

00:34:18.900 This is a place where yeah, friendships are forged because there's shared struggle.

00:34:24.180 There's accountability and it's all welcomed rather than just avoided and cast aside and

00:34:29.760 dismissed as something unnecessary.

00:34:31.940 But the men who come, they, they leave, end up knowing that they're not having to carry all

00:34:37.480 of this mantle of masculinity alone.

00:34:40.520 And the result is a better sense of direction, better relationships and a brotherhood at the

00:34:48.560 end of the day that extends long after this experience is over.

00:34:52.160 So check it out.

00:34:52.940 April 23rd through the 26th at the men's forge.com.

00:34:57.260 That's the men's forge.com.

00:34:59.820 Do that right after the conversation.

00:35:01.960 Let's get back to it with John.

00:35:05.100 That's good.

00:35:05.600 I wrote that down because I've said that just in just recently, like, Oh, you're doing

00:35:09.340 the best you can with the information you have.

00:35:11.020 That does not give you an excuse to not be better, but I like what you said.

00:35:15.860 You're doing the best you think you can and you have resources in this case, community

00:35:20.960 at your disposal.

00:35:23.620 You just have to tap into it.

00:35:25.100 There's no excuse for it.

00:35:27.040 Yeah.

00:35:27.680 What, when you talk about the environment to create a so-called killer, like you talk about

00:35:31.820 what, what does that environment look like?

00:35:34.120 Cause you said, cause I mean, you said something a little bit, a little bit contradictory.

00:35:40.340 You said you got to create the environment, but then on the other hand, you said, Hey, you've

00:35:44.040 got this dad who's an F1 racer and he can't necessarily create an environment for his son

00:35:49.760 or daughter to be in that.

00:35:51.180 You can create, no.

00:35:52.400 So yeah.

00:35:53.640 So you can create the environment for the killer to come out.

00:35:56.600 You can't change somebody into a killer, in my opinion.

00:35:59.360 Like there are some things I had a comedian on my podcast today and we were talking about,

00:36:03.820 can you make somebody funny?

00:36:05.440 And I, and our summation was you can't make somebody funny.

00:36:08.860 You can make somebody funnier.

00:36:10.180 Meaning there is some degree of innate skill that they have that, you know, and if you've

00:36:14.920 had kids, like I have two kids, they're very opposite personalities.

00:36:18.440 They grew up in the same house, same socioeconomic, like everything.

00:36:22.900 They approach the world very different as far as what drives them, as far as motivation.

00:36:27.960 And so you can create the environment where it's easy for that person who's naturally that

00:36:32.960 way to come out.

00:36:34.280 I think you can help somebody who's not naturally that way get better.

00:36:38.100 But I do think that we're uniquely made and there's, there's different skills and different

00:36:42.840 gifts we have.

00:36:43.680 And I don't mean like, as in killer is good.

00:36:46.160 And if you're not a killer, that's bad because I think there's a lot of people that would

00:36:49.880 go, no, in a company, if we had 10 killers and nobody had empathy or we had 10 hardcore

00:36:56.540 drivers and nobody was following up with the client or nobody did paperwork or nobody, I

00:37:01.960 think it takes a variety of people to have a team that works well.

00:37:05.740 Um, I just, you know, it's a question I, anytime I'm with somebody who's high performance, I

00:37:11.340 ask that question and go, do you think you can make somebody a killer?

00:37:14.620 And a hundred percent of the time they go, no, no.

00:37:16.820 Like I, I, you know, I have a switch that was, that I've always had.

00:37:20.380 Like I have a gear that I've always had.

00:37:22.500 And like you, I guarantee you had the stuff in you in high school.

00:37:27.480 It took time and environment to pull it out.

00:37:30.460 It's not that you weren't capable of more in high school, just like I was, I was capable

00:37:34.640 of more in my teens.

00:37:35.920 I was capable of more in my twenties.

00:37:38.140 Um, and I, I just didn't, for whatever reason, I didn't pull it out.

00:37:41.920 I didn't have an environment to pull that out, but I was still that person.

00:37:44.980 And the older I get, the more I become the person I've always been.

00:37:48.340 And that to me is what I mean about like the environment can bring that out of somebody

00:37:53.420 if, if they have whatever that thing is, however you define it.

00:37:56.620 But like you, like Kobe, you think about the teams Kobe was on with the Lakers where

00:38:01.400 that when they were bad, he couldn't teach any of those guys to be killers.

00:38:05.520 Like he wanted everybody, like there was a couple of years where he was dragging that

00:38:09.580 organization on his back.

00:38:11.000 He would have loved even Shaq.

00:38:13.180 He would say, you know, if Shaq had worked, if Shaq had had Kobe's work ethic, like he would

00:38:18.780 have been unstoppable for like 10 championships.

00:38:21.760 Like they, they had different mentality.

00:38:23.920 So I don't know that you can make somebody a killer.

00:38:26.840 That's, that's something I'm constantly curious about.

00:38:30.120 Yeah.

00:38:30.660 Well, I'm glad that you also said like, okay, so not everybody needs to be a killer.

00:38:34.420 My, my reaction at first was, well, can't somebody be a killer at, you know, paperwork?

00:38:39.600 Cause that's the analogy.

00:38:40.940 Sure.

00:38:41.260 Um, but I think for me, I don't know, I, I saw enough and I just got pissed.

00:38:48.740 Like I saw enough where I was just tired of it and I couldn't, what age were you, what,

00:38:54.480 when did that switch for you or like what season of your life?

00:38:57.200 Probably when testosterone hit for me, I, you know, I was, I was 14, 13, 14, 15 years old

00:39:03.040 and I would just get angry and I didn't know how to harness it, but I was angry.

00:39:07.820 I think I was angry at the right things, injustice, but I didn't know how to harness it.

00:39:12.400 And so I was getting into trouble and I was a little reckless and it took some harnessing,

00:39:18.780 but I was just pissed all the time.

00:39:21.800 Did you, uh, I mean, were you aware of that?

00:39:27.080 Like you were, you know, the trouble was, Hey, you've got a anger problem or you, were

00:39:31.900 you just left alone as like, that's a grumpy teenager.

00:39:34.040 It is what it is.

00:39:35.020 No, not even that.

00:39:36.120 I actually had some really good men come into my life.

00:39:38.840 One of them, his name is Matt Labrum.

00:39:41.100 And, uh, I wasn't playing.

00:39:43.120 It was, it was, um, it must've been my sophomore or junior year.

00:39:48.180 And I got, he cut me from the basketball team and he said, Hey, if you don't wrestle for

00:39:54.880 me, you don't get to play football for me.

00:39:56.460 And I wanted to play football and, and he could see, he actually saw in me the, the anger

00:40:02.840 and the, like the resentment and the frustration and the, the rage building in me on, in the

00:40:07.300 off season.

00:40:08.000 He's like, no, you need a healthy outlet.

00:40:09.760 And he and I, he just texted me the other day.

00:40:12.380 I mean, this is, so I was 18 years old.

00:40:15.220 Um, this is 25 years ago.

00:40:17.520 He texted me and he's like, Hey, my boys are playing baseball.

00:40:19.760 Like come out and watch the game with us.

00:40:21.400 And I'm going to go out and see him next weekend.

00:40:22.900 But no, it took a couple of men in my life who were like, no, we're going to direct that.

00:40:27.760 We're going to channel that.

00:40:28.520 We're going to harness that for you.

00:40:29.520 And I, I actually credit them a lot to that.

00:40:32.580 Is that part of why you like this podcast?

00:40:34.900 Like it's a chance for you to do that for a lot of other guys.

00:40:37.260 Yeah.

00:40:37.720 Because I talk with guys every single day who are, they're men, they're grown men.

00:40:42.160 They're 40, 45, 50 years old.

00:40:43.800 And they don't feel like men because they never learned how to do it.

00:40:48.760 Yeah.

00:40:49.120 Cause it's not an automatic thing.

00:40:50.780 No.

00:40:51.240 I mean, being a male is being masculine.

00:40:53.580 Sure.

00:40:53.900 But not being a man that's different.

00:40:56.680 Yeah.

00:40:57.080 That's good.

00:40:57.780 That's good, dude.

00:40:58.440 I'm glad you had those guys in your life.

00:41:00.000 Yeah.

00:41:00.200 Me too.

00:41:00.580 I don't know where I'd be if I didn't.

00:41:02.440 Yeah.

00:41:03.820 Yeah.

00:41:04.240 So, okay.

00:41:04.800 So to come back to the, the idea of procrastination, um, how does a guy begin to, to deal with it?

00:41:15.480 Like, I think a lot of people recognize that they're procrastinating.

00:41:18.620 It's not something they don't acknowledge.

00:41:20.400 It's just, they don't know what to do about her.

00:41:22.220 So what, like, what are the steps to say, okay, I know I'm putting this conversation off.

00:41:26.740 I know I'm putting this project off.

00:41:28.140 I know I'm putting this business off.

00:41:29.480 What do I do now?

00:41:32.460 Yeah.

00:41:32.940 Well, the, the book really teaches this idea of permission of how to give yourself permission

00:41:37.080 to do the things you know you want to do, you need to do, you have to do, you must do.

00:41:41.660 And there's four permissions that if done in this order, make success very difficult to

00:41:46.640 not happen.

00:41:47.580 Like if you just do these four things, it's almost impossible for you to not do the thing

00:41:52.000 you're really supposed to do.

00:41:52.940 One is permission to dream, to go, okay, what do I want to do?

00:41:56.620 Like, what do I want to accomplish?

00:41:58.400 The second is permission to plan.

00:42:00.720 Okay.

00:42:00.980 How will I do it?

00:42:02.060 Like, how will I do it?

00:42:03.660 The third one is permission to do.

00:42:05.420 And that one's simple.

00:42:06.220 Am I doing it?

00:42:07.060 Is there evidence?

00:42:08.100 Are my sleeves rolled up?

00:42:09.380 Are my hands dirty?

00:42:10.200 And the fourth one is permission to review.

00:42:12.260 Did it, did it work?

00:42:13.500 If you do that little loop long enough, consistently enough, you get results.

00:42:19.060 And so the first step, if you ask me, okay, what's the first step?

00:42:22.620 It's the permission to dream because nobody willingly leaves their comfort zone.

00:42:27.160 Like I've worked with a million people on their goals.

00:42:29.300 I've never met somebody who said, today I just decided to have grit.

00:42:32.160 Today I woke up and decided to have sacrifice and willpower.

00:42:34.900 That's never how it happens.

00:42:35.840 What happens is one of two things, desire or disappointment.

00:42:40.600 You have desire or disappointment.

00:42:42.920 Disappointment.

00:42:43.320 I'm not the man I thought I was.

00:42:44.980 I'm not where I want to be in my career.

00:42:47.740 I, you know, my wife and I have the smallest house in our small group and I can feel it

00:42:52.360 every time we host.

00:42:53.660 Like, I don't like that feeling.

00:42:55.100 Like when, when the other couples come over or when we go to their house, I know I'm at

00:42:59.420 a different level of work performance.

00:43:01.540 I want to change that or desire.

00:43:03.500 I think I can do that thing.

00:43:05.380 I saw somebody do it.

00:43:06.520 I think I can do it even better.

00:43:07.680 I love when men tell me, yeah, I started a car service because I hired a car service to pick

00:43:12.160 us up at the airport because I thought my kids would get a kick out of it.

00:43:14.800 And it was really poorly done.

00:43:16.360 And I thought, I bet I could do that even better.

00:43:18.520 And then I did.

00:43:19.720 So the only reason people leave their comfort zone is there's something outside it worth

00:43:23.920 being uncomfortable for.

00:43:25.600 So the first step is to kind of plug into that because what happens, here's how it happens.

00:43:31.080 The desire or the disappointment creates discipline.

00:43:34.220 It's not the other way around.

00:43:35.420 Like when I got really disciplined, it was because I started to write a blog and I found out,

00:43:40.460 oh my gosh, there's this whole world out there that I can speak to and I can impact people.

00:43:45.540 And that made me get up earlier.

00:43:47.040 I didn't get up earlier and then eventually write.

00:43:49.460 What happened was I bumped into something I liked and realized, oh, this is a small fire.

00:43:54.680 And if I think of time as a log, I want to throw as many logs into the blaze as possible.

00:43:59.520 That made me get up at 6 a.m. because I had two kids under the age of four and that was

00:44:03.120 the only time I could write.

00:44:04.060 I didn't stop watching as much TV because I was disciplined.

00:44:06.800 I stopped because TV was giving me nothing.

00:44:09.840 Writing was giving me so much that like wasting my time on like law and order episodes didn't

00:44:15.520 do anything for me.

00:44:16.980 Writing did something.

00:44:18.060 So I wanted to, so that changed my life.

00:44:20.820 So the desire creates the discipline.

00:44:23.560 And then what's cool and Sean Johnson checked me on this the other day.

00:44:27.380 She said, I agree with that.

00:44:28.420 But eventually when the desire goes away temporarily, the discipline keeps you going.

00:44:32.500 Like when you get into the rhythm of discipline, there will be days like there's days I don't

00:44:37.160 want to get up.

00:44:38.000 Like F3 is at 530 in the morning.

00:44:40.080 Like today I did it.

00:44:41.380 It was like 28 degrees.

00:44:43.380 I was nonsense, dude.

00:44:44.640 Like I didn't want to be out there, but I had the discipline.

00:44:47.440 And then you find little, you find little tricks.

00:44:49.920 Like one of mine, every man on the planet could do this one.

00:44:53.440 I realized I'm more likely to go if I volunteer to drive.

00:44:56.780 So I text three guys, hey, I'll pick you up tomorrow at 515.

00:44:59.660 I'll pick you up tomorrow at 515.

00:45:00.720 You better believe I'm not getting up the next morning and canceling on those three

00:45:04.040 dudes.

00:45:04.500 No way.

00:45:04.960 I'm not disappointing those guys.

00:45:06.240 I've put myself in a corner.

00:45:07.780 It's the old Sun Tzu.

00:45:09.000 Like my back is against the water.

00:45:10.780 I got to fight my way out.

00:45:12.040 There's no going back.

00:45:13.420 So like little things like that, that's a discipline.

00:45:16.320 Because I know that some mornings my desire won't meet me because it's going to be eight

00:45:20.320 degrees.

00:45:21.220 I'm like, this is dumb.

00:45:22.220 Like I don't want to do this.

00:45:23.200 So I go ahead and pre-plan some discipline that pushes me through.

00:45:26.580 So that's the dance.

00:45:27.700 But it starts with a desire.

00:45:29.000 It starts with a disappointment.

00:45:30.060 And then you build from there.

00:45:31.880 I've even thought like when it's eight degrees, I don't know what you think about this, this

00:45:37.280 little concept, but I think when it's eight degrees, I'm like, that counts more.

00:45:42.000 That means more.

00:45:43.660 So.

00:45:44.220 Oh yeah.

00:45:44.740 A hundred percent.

00:45:45.800 Like if it's 80 degrees, I'm like, that's easy.

00:45:47.920 If it's eight degrees, that's hard.

00:45:49.320 That counts more to me.

00:45:51.220 Yeah.

00:45:51.740 And same with the early morning.

00:45:53.300 Like if, if F3 was at seven 30 in the morning, we wouldn't be in it as engaged.

00:45:58.460 Like the first win, like I watch guys get out of their car at five 20 to get started in

00:46:03.900 the parking lot.

00:46:04.660 They already won the win.

00:46:06.720 And then the first win is getting there.

00:46:08.440 Like the getting there is difficult.

00:46:10.540 So you already feel like I can do hard things.

00:46:13.120 The drive home feels amazing because you've done a bunch of hard things.

00:46:16.600 But if they made it 8am, like you wouldn't get that feeling.

00:46:19.880 You'd be like, oh yeah.

00:46:20.640 So I got to sleep in and kind of do a workout.

00:46:22.900 Like it wouldn't be.

00:46:23.840 Yeah.

00:46:24.040 So the, you're right.

00:46:25.180 The eight degree days count more.

00:46:26.760 The early morning counts more.

00:46:28.040 Like you kind of have to fall in love with that part of it too.

00:46:31.460 Yeah.

00:46:31.980 Are you familiar with maybe in some of your research and there's so many different concepts

00:46:36.800 that are overlapping and this one's pretty close.

00:46:39.000 The OODA loop.

00:46:39.920 Are you familiar with the OODA loop?

00:46:41.580 I don't think so.

00:46:42.580 So the OODA loop was essentially identified and created by a retired Air Force Colonel.

00:46:48.140 His name is John Boyd and he would train military pilots for dogfights, aerial combat.

00:46:55.080 And he created this concept called the OODA loop, which is observe, orient, decide, act.

00:47:03.200 And it has some, not exactly the way you're describing the procrastination process here,

00:47:07.700 but it has some similarities.

00:47:09.240 And I was, I was curious what you thought about that because observe, right?

00:47:13.320 Is, is dreaming, right?

00:47:16.060 Orient is to plan.

00:47:18.140 This is where it goes a little different.

00:47:20.260 Decide.

00:47:20.780 You said do act, which is due and then permission to review.

00:47:23.600 And that's why he calls it a loop because it's over and over and over again and it never

00:47:29.220 ends.

00:47:29.940 But I, I did have a question about the, the second part of the process you described.

00:47:35.000 You said plan.

00:47:35.860 Do you feel like the people that you've worked with disqualify themselves during the plan?

00:47:43.520 I've seen that where, or even dreaming where guys are like, oh, I would love to do this,

00:47:48.600 but I would love to make this happen.

00:47:51.420 But, and they start to disqualify before they even get to the next stage of the process.

00:47:55.800 Oh, a hundred percent.

00:47:58.080 I mean, statistically speaking, the New York times says that 82% of Americans want to write

00:48:02.480 a book, but we know based on the number of books that come out every year, less than

00:48:06.180 1% do.

00:48:07.300 So having the dream isn't enough.

00:48:09.560 Like dreams are cheap.

00:48:11.200 Like dream, like, you know, sometimes, uh, we disqualify because we create so many dreams.

00:48:17.080 We go, I don't know where to start or which one to do.

00:48:19.120 Like I, I used to teach this the wrong way.

00:48:22.020 I used to teach people when they would come to me, like, Hey, let's blank piece of paper.

00:48:25.640 Let's come up with a hundred goals you want to work on.

00:48:27.540 They already have too many.

00:48:29.280 They already came with to me with too many.

00:48:31.760 And then they feel even more overwhelmed if we create more and they go, well, I don't

00:48:35.120 know which one to pick.

00:48:36.060 What if I pick the wrong one and it's not the thing I want to do.

00:48:39.180 So they get frozen in kind of decision of like, well, I don't want to move forward on

00:48:43.080 the wrong thing.

00:48:43.940 So yeah, I see people disqualify themselves, um, that way a lot where they go.

00:48:49.120 As soon as I, or like perfectionists will say, I just need a little more data before

00:48:53.580 I make a decision or I want to get all the information.

00:48:56.160 And we don't live in an all information world.

00:48:57.800 Our information changes too quickly.

00:48:59.320 Like if we, you know, if I wrote a book on AI, like a month ago, before the two latest

00:49:05.320 rounds came out, it would like, it would be like a VCR manual.

00:49:09.780 It would make no sense.

00:49:10.980 I'd be like, Oh wait, Claude can do all that now.

00:49:13.280 I had no idea.

00:49:14.780 You can't wait for all the information.

00:49:17.080 You make a decision, you do it.

00:49:18.720 And you iterate, you review, you iterate.

00:49:21.400 That's why it is a loop.

00:49:22.420 That's why, you know, that, that pilot was right.

00:49:25.160 Like you're constantly iterating, you're constantly iterating.

00:49:28.500 And that's part of the thing that takes it from like, I have to get it perfect to no,

00:49:32.900 I just, I just got to learn.

00:49:34.120 The best teacher is doing planning is critical, obviously.

00:49:36.920 But in my opinion, the best teacher is doing, and then I can review it and make sure I'm headed

00:49:40.980 in the right direction.

00:49:41.660 Where I see hustlers get involved, get, go off track.

00:49:45.060 And I bet there's a lot of hustlers that listen to this show.

00:49:47.760 They skip planning, they get right to doing, and they never review.

00:49:51.120 The review feels like a waste of time.

00:49:52.700 I see sales teams I work with all the time.

00:49:55.440 Yeah.

00:49:55.600 It's big time me, but there's a sales team I know.

00:49:58.900 And their soundtrack was, if it didn't happen in Salesforce, it didn't happen because they

00:50:02.660 were trying to tell their sales crew, you got to input this.

00:50:06.200 And the sales team was like, get me in the streets.

00:50:07.920 We're animals.

00:50:08.520 I just want to sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell.

00:50:09.920 And they were like, you got to fill out this form.

00:50:12.240 And they'd go, it's too long.

00:50:13.280 It's bureaucratic.

00:50:13.980 And they'd go, dude, it's three fields.

00:50:16.260 We just need to know the name and the email of the person you sold to.

00:50:19.620 And they're like, that's not what, it's too detailed.

00:50:21.640 And so I see hustlers get stuck there where they, they jump over the planning.

00:50:25.620 They make a ton of progress, but it's often in the wrong direction because they never pause

00:50:29.820 for a review because they don't value the review.

00:50:31.680 They feel like the review is slowing them down, but a good review, a good plan actually speeds

00:50:36.340 a hustler up.

00:50:37.860 Well, I think this is where it's important to know yourself.

00:50:40.360 So you've got, you've got your sales guys who are like, no, it's too long.

00:50:43.100 It's three fields too long.

00:50:44.840 And maybe they're right a little, but maybe they could stand to have some organization.

00:50:49.280 And then you have the guys who like fill out 20 fields and like, we need all the intricate

00:50:53.480 details about everything.

00:50:54.840 And it's like, maybe you could stand to shorten that up a little bit and get your ass to work.

00:51:00.640 Oh yeah.

00:51:01.180 Yeah.

00:51:01.320 Yeah.

00:51:01.460 And that's where the team concept helps.

00:51:03.060 Like when I talk to companies about this concept, I'll often send them an assessment.

00:51:07.640 So we have this assessment.

00:51:09.180 It's just johnacob.com slash quiz, but they fill out ahead of time.

00:51:12.880 And so then I can have a slide in my talk.

00:51:14.700 That's like, Hey, you got 80% hustlers and only 2% analysts who are good at reviewing.

00:51:20.480 I mean, no wonder like this is difficult, you know, like no, or you've got, you know, I've

00:51:26.080 had clients come up to me after and go, while you were talking, I got texts from my team.

00:51:29.600 They're like, we have too many dreamers.

00:51:31.560 We're great at the first stage of the process, but we never actually execute.

00:51:35.700 This is why we don't get anything done.

00:51:37.360 And so, yeah, there is like, like you said, knowing yourself, self-awareness is a superpower.

00:51:42.580 Like it just is.

00:51:43.700 You should, you should be the greatest student of Ryan that's ever existed.

00:51:47.560 Like I would, the other way I say it is like, you're the greatest Ryan salesman that's ever

00:51:51.520 existed because you're the most persuasive person you've ever met because every bad decision

00:51:56.680 you've ever made, first, you talked yourself into it.

00:51:58.760 First, you said, we should do this.

00:52:00.200 Like every decision you ever made.

00:52:01.820 So life changed for me when I just got better at being a better John Acuff salesman.

00:52:06.400 Like I, half of accomplishment is talking yourself into doing things you really want to do,

00:52:11.620 but you might not feel like doing those like now I'm just like, Oh, I know how to motivate

00:52:15.900 me.

00:52:16.200 I'm a John Acuff.

00:52:16.760 I'm the best John Acuff salesperson in the world.

00:52:19.020 Like I, I know how to sell me.

00:52:21.640 And once you kind of think about that way, you're like, okay, I want to eat this Carl's

00:52:26.880 Jr.

00:52:27.220 Whatever.

00:52:27.560 But like, nah, that's not what we're selling right now.

00:52:31.020 We're selling feel great all afternoon.

00:52:33.120 And I've sold myself that.

00:52:34.700 So this temporary pleasure is not like the bigger sell is this afternoon.

00:52:38.560 And I sell myself that by not going into one or not going through the drive-thru just

00:52:43.060 to see what they got new.

00:52:44.020 Like, you know, like you've sold yourself on, this is the decision we're going to make.

00:52:48.220 And that makes personal development really fun.

00:52:50.780 Because then you go, oh yeah, how do I sell myself on this site?

00:52:53.340 What are the things I need in place?

00:52:54.640 Like I sold myself getting up early by texting three guys and offer them a ride.

00:52:59.360 Like that's happening because I've, I sold myself that idea.

00:53:03.440 Yeah.

00:53:03.840 I like that.

00:53:04.740 Like, because you're right.

00:53:05.900 And whether you do it intentionally or not, you already know you're, I know how to talk

00:53:10.320 myself.

00:53:11.000 I know how to say just the right things to myself to do what I already wanted to do anyways.

00:53:15.720 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:53:17.940 And you can justify it and you know the right memories, you know the right words, like you,

00:53:22.640 you know, you, and that's why like when somebody, when a guy tells me, oh, I would love to change

00:53:26.560 while my schedule is too busy.

00:53:27.720 I always go, who said yes to all that?

00:53:29.880 Like who, like who said yes to that schedule?

00:53:32.580 Cause you want to talk about like, when you live in blame, you lose all your power.

00:53:37.120 And one of the sources of blame that we don't talk about enough is I have a really full calendar.

00:53:41.680 I'm too busy for that.

00:53:43.480 And, and versus going, no, I made some choices.

00:53:46.160 Like we're choosing to be involved in this sport with my kid.

00:53:49.880 I'm choosing that.

00:53:50.740 We're choosing for our weekends to look like this.

00:53:52.420 I'm choosing that changes it.

00:53:54.280 But if you go, I would do this thing if I wasn't so busy now, now you work for the calendar,

00:54:00.380 I guess, or the calendar's in charge or they're like, who said yes to those things?

00:54:04.560 It was probably you.

00:54:05.800 And as soon as you kind of take ownership of that, you can decide, do I want to do something

00:54:10.040 different?

00:54:10.400 I also think there's this element of, you know, even the, even the behavior that we have

00:54:16.120 already identified and know with a hundred percent certainty that is toxic to us, we, we

00:54:23.560 are gaining something from it because if there wasn't some perceived value, we just wouldn't

00:54:28.260 engage it.

00:54:29.240 So I think it's also important to understand when you're doing something dumb, whether it's,

00:54:34.520 you know, looking at pornography or a substance abuse or even something as simple as saying

00:54:42.300 yes to everything that you shouldn't say yes to, what is it that you're getting from

00:54:46.740 it?

00:54:46.960 And identify what it is so you can actually maybe for the first time in your life decide

00:54:52.580 whether or not the cost is worth the benefit.

00:54:55.360 Yeah.

00:54:57.360 And I, I think you hopefully, as you get older, start to make different decisions around those

00:55:02.460 things.

00:55:02.840 Like I know when I'm overfilling my schedule, it's usually out of insecurity because it

00:55:08.020 makes me feel important or it makes me feel like I matter or, you know, like I like to

00:55:13.000 be asked or, or I'm afraid of people's opinions.

00:55:15.260 So now I'm living out of other people's opinions cause I don't want to say no.

00:55:18.840 Like, and none of those things are how I want to orient my life.

00:55:22.460 And so then I get to go, oh, wait a second.

00:55:25.000 That's why I did that.

00:55:26.580 How do I change that?

00:55:28.080 How do I, I'm going to get asked for like, for other things that I know I'm not supposed

00:55:31.940 to do.

00:55:32.480 How do I make sure that I give a different answer, you know, next time that, that does

00:55:37.740 line up with my values.

00:55:39.700 Do you think men struggle also with pigeonholing themselves?

00:55:45.500 Like, for example, if, if you, if somebody listened to this podcast and they heard about

00:55:51.860 me bow hunting, then they have to be, you know, the next, you know, avid bow, the next

00:55:59.360 Cam Haynes, for example, uh, or Fred bear and like become this incredible bow hunter.

00:56:05.640 And then that puts pressure on them to not even take the step when all they really, or

00:56:10.980 anybody else was asking them to do was just to try it.

00:56:14.460 Like why, why do we lock ourselves into something that we're just auditioning for to use your

00:56:19.540 terminology?

00:56:21.740 Well, I mean, I think it starts in a good place often where it's like excitement or

00:56:25.680 enthusiasm.

00:56:26.960 Um, I always just think though, that like, there's certain things that I think sometimes

00:56:32.600 men feel out of control in certain areas of their life.

00:56:35.100 So they over-focus on things they do feel like they can control.

00:56:38.320 So just the other day I talked to somebody and they said, yeah, there's some men hiding

00:56:42.340 at my, uh, jujitsu gym.

00:56:44.340 I was like, what do you mean?

00:56:45.620 And she said, well, they're dads with young children and they train four nights a week

00:56:49.700 from six to nine.

00:56:50.740 So I know they're missing dinner and I know they're missing bedtime because they, for whatever

00:56:55.140 reason, they feel out of control in those situations.

00:56:57.720 You can't control a spouse.

00:56:59.000 You can't control kids.

00:57:00.220 They feel out of control.

00:57:01.200 So men, when they feel out of control, try to find other areas of their life to over-control.

00:57:06.080 So they're over-controlling, I'm going to train four nights a week and like jujitsu is the

00:57:12.380 most important thing.

00:57:13.640 And so I think that's one of those questions of like, is this natural enthusiasm?

00:57:17.920 Cause I'm excited about a new hobby and I love the community and I love the challenge.

00:57:22.100 All good things.

00:57:23.240 Or is there another part of my life I'm ignoring cause it's really challenging and I don't have

00:57:28.700 control over it.

00:57:29.720 And so you see men like workaholics, same thing.

00:57:32.160 I can control work.

00:57:33.420 I can control work.

00:57:34.360 I can't control my family.

00:57:35.780 So I'll over-control work or I can control golf and golf is the most important thing

00:57:40.500 to me.

00:57:40.820 And I, you know, I've got to do this with golf.

00:57:43.460 So I think some, some of it's that, I mean, there is that like excellence is intoxicating.

00:57:48.760 So getting better at something is fun and like climbing is fun.

00:57:53.580 And like, so I think that's awesome.

00:57:55.600 Like I don't do anything where I try to be worse at it.

00:57:58.700 You know, like I never do even a hobby.

00:58:00.880 I'm not like, man, I hope I get worse at this hobby.

00:58:03.160 I'm like, no, I really want to, I want to lean in, but I'm also constantly going, is

00:58:08.840 there something else?

00:58:10.120 Like right now, I'll give you an example.

00:58:11.760 I wish this is fresh.

00:58:13.040 This happened yesterday.

00:58:14.380 I find myself really interested in watches.

00:58:17.020 Like the last couple of months I've been like, man, I think I could be a watch guy.

00:58:20.260 And I think I'm, I think there's some genuine part there, but I think there's a lot of me

00:58:25.300 realizing it's challenging to grow a business.

00:58:28.740 And so I'd rather go learn about like intricate Rolexes that were released in 2003.

00:58:34.220 And I'm like, what, what am I, what am I doing?

00:58:37.400 Like, no, cause my creativity, my heart, my energy needs to be focused on my business.

00:58:42.700 It needs to be focused on raising my two adult children.

00:58:45.000 It needs to be focused on my marriage.

00:58:46.600 Like, but I can find myself hiding a little bit in a new hobby.

00:58:50.480 And that's where five years ago, I wouldn't have noticed.

00:58:53.180 I would have just gone all in.

00:58:54.480 And now with self-awareness, I'm able to step back a little bit and go and say to my wife,

00:58:58.960 like, I think I might get a nice watch at some point, but I think right now I'm researching

00:59:02.700 them a lot because there's other parts of my life that are stressful and feel out of control.

00:59:06.760 And I think I'm over, I'm overindulging in this one.

00:59:09.880 That's a great, that's a great example.

00:59:12.920 I, the other example I often see is these guys who have memorized every sports statistic

00:59:18.500 for every baseball team from, you know, the sixties.

00:59:21.980 And then you say, well, what's your third child?

00:59:24.140 When, what, what's their birthday?

00:59:26.960 And they're like, what are they into?

00:59:28.300 I don't know.

00:59:28.680 Let me ask my wife.

00:59:30.060 It's like, well, do you think maybe you should, you ought to focus that incredible memory

00:59:35.000 or knowledge that you have on something a little bit more important?

00:59:38.040 And look, if, if, you know.

00:59:39.360 Which you have.

00:59:40.000 It's a skill you have.

00:59:40.920 It is a skill.

00:59:41.880 Be glad about the skill.

00:59:43.360 Just apply it to, that's why when men over, like, they'll schedule their work day week

00:59:49.020 down to the 15 minute chunk and then just have the weekends happen accidentally and organically.

00:59:55.160 Like, so if you ask the average man, show me your goals, they have a lot of, if they do goals,

01:00:00.180 they have financial goals, they might have career goals.

01:00:02.740 Very few of them have relationship goals.

01:00:05.000 Now, part of it's because those are a little messier.

01:00:07.420 They're harder to figure out.

01:00:08.260 I get that.

01:00:09.240 But it's, it's one of those areas where it's like, man, if you could apply some of that

01:00:12.900 energy you have for your career, to your family, to your spouse, whatever, like you'd work wonders

01:00:17.840 and you'd actually get into it more.

01:00:19.760 Like you'd actually engage in it more.

01:00:21.840 You'd see so much progress there.

01:00:23.580 Like, I don't, you know, I see a lot of young men whose parents, whose dads show up in their early

01:00:29.120 twenties and want to be close.

01:00:30.400 And they're like, they feel like they're a stranger.

01:00:32.520 They're like, I, where were you the first 22 years?

01:00:35.740 Like who, like they, the dad goes to counseling one time and then comes and wants to try to

01:00:39.660 skip all these intimacy levels he never built during the, the 20, you know, two years previously.

01:00:45.740 And that's a tough situation.

01:00:47.160 And so I'm always encouraging guys like, no, pour into that.

01:00:49.960 Like bring the kid along for the ride.

01:00:51.740 Like, what does it look like for you to engage even more?

01:00:54.840 And it's not easy.

01:00:55.640 I'm like, and I've messed it up plenty of times.

01:00:57.600 This is not a judgment.

01:00:58.440 And it's just, I think it's worth it.

01:01:00.480 I, I actually would contend with that a little bit.

01:01:03.100 I think it is easy.

01:01:03.960 And I think sometimes when we say it's not, we give ourselves an excuse.

01:01:07.480 So it's funny you're saying this cause I wrote these things down.

01:01:09.900 So, you know, there's four quadrants or four domains that we really focus on in our organization.

01:01:15.440 And so it's family, faith, fitness, and fortune.

01:01:18.340 And so the, the two that guys always get, I won't say right, but focus on is fitness and fortune.

01:01:25.880 It's, it's their, it's their fitness and their career.

01:01:29.120 Cause it's so tangible, right?

01:01:31.700 It's like, I could look at my bank account and see, okay, I've got, yeah, I've got like 20 grand.

01:01:36.520 And today I have 22 grand.

01:01:37.840 I'm better than I was yesterday.

01:01:39.400 Fitness, you know, I was, I was, uh, you know, 25% body fat.

01:01:44.080 Now I'm 22.

01:01:45.000 Cool.

01:01:45.520 I can measure that.

01:01:46.520 But how do you measure being a better dad?

01:01:49.340 How do you measure, how do you measure I'm more spiritual than I was yesterday?

01:01:53.300 You can't, unless you come up with an objective metric, it's very difficult to do that.

01:01:59.540 But I actually think, you know, I thought about my boys.

01:02:01.960 It's like, how do I measure being a better dad?

01:02:03.340 Well, being involved.

01:02:04.680 Okay, cool.

01:02:05.460 Being more involved.

01:02:06.260 What does that mean?

01:02:07.260 Well, going to their, their lacrosse games.

01:02:09.160 Okay.

01:02:09.380 How can I do that better?

01:02:10.560 And now I'm the team photographer for, I can't coach them.

01:02:14.340 They know more about it than I do, but I can go take pictures for them.

01:02:17.920 And that becomes tangible and I can turn the family side, the relational side into a tangible

01:02:23.340 thing I can actually measure.

01:02:26.340 No, I, I love that.

01:02:27.580 And to your point about, it's not easy.

01:02:29.460 I could see that being a broken soundtrack.

01:02:31.340 I'll have to think about that one.

01:02:32.820 Maybe what I'm trying to say is it's not automatic because I think the, the, the thing I'm realizing,

01:02:39.520 cause I've got a 20 year old and a 22 year old parenting adult children is harder than

01:02:43.900 young children.

01:02:44.460 Like it just flat out is.

01:02:45.980 And I asked the older guy that guy 10 years ahead of me, I said, this is how it feels.

01:02:50.020 Am I wrong?

01:02:50.660 And he said, no, because it's a, it's a tough combination.

01:02:53.740 The stakes are higher and you have less control.

01:02:55.960 When you have a six year old, you can kind of try to control their friendship groups by

01:03:00.960 going, we're doing a play date.

01:03:02.580 Oh my gosh, look, this person that we really want you to be friends with is at the playground.

01:03:06.100 What do you, what do you know?

01:03:06.880 What are the odds?

01:03:07.680 Like you can be like, Hey, we're, you're not going to that sleepover, whatever.

01:03:11.480 But when they're 20 and 22, you don't have that control.

01:03:14.100 And he said, the stakes are higher.

01:03:15.600 If you're, if you're eighth grader gets cut from the lacrosse team, it's, it's sad.

01:03:18.980 If you're 28 year old gets a divorce, it's tragic.

01:03:21.900 And so what happens is the stakes get bigger and your hands get wider.

01:03:26.760 Like you have less and less control.

01:03:29.120 So yeah, I don't, I do agree with you.

01:03:31.240 Like it's not easy.

01:03:32.120 Isn't a good soundtrack, but maybe I'm trying to say it's not automatic.

01:03:35.800 Um, or it's worth the challenge.

01:03:39.140 Like, cause I, I would never want to say it's not easy and prevent somebody from trying it

01:03:43.380 because they heard it's not easy.

01:03:45.020 But I also wouldn't want to say like, it's easy because no, you do have to fight.

01:03:49.720 Like it is like, you have to fight for your kids.

01:03:52.720 You have to like, where I see men struggle.

01:03:54.900 Like if I could fix this, where men quit fighting with their young teenagers over, over issues.

01:04:03.240 And then, then you look up 10 years later and they've lost the whole fight.

01:04:06.980 So an example would be, they didn't want to cause an argument with their grumpy 12 year

01:04:11.260 old.

01:04:11.600 And so they let him wear AirPods at the restaurant.

01:04:14.080 So he's mentally checked out from the whole family because they're like, it's not worth

01:04:17.600 the fight.

01:04:18.000 You got to pick our battles.

01:04:19.080 So then they just stopped kind of engaging with their grumpy son and young men use anger

01:04:23.860 and sarcasm and frustration as like a shield between them and their parents.

01:04:28.840 And if the parent starts to go, well, it's not worth the fight.

01:04:31.280 It's not worth the fight.

01:04:31.840 It's not worth the fight.

01:04:32.360 You look up and at 18, at 20, at 22, the, there's been a lot of fights that you never

01:04:37.360 engaged in and you don't have a relationship with that kid.

01:04:40.120 And that's, that's the kind of thing where I'm like, I wouldn't want to say it's not

01:04:43.260 easy and discourage someone, but I'm also like, it's worth the fight.

01:04:47.340 Like it's not automatic.

01:04:49.060 Like you have to get into the ring and work on this issue, like with the kid and you're

01:04:55.040 going to have to tell them no a lot or ask them questions a lot.

01:04:58.340 It's, it's going to be, it's going to be a wrestle and it's worth it.

01:05:01.920 I do like that framing.

01:05:03.380 I'd never thought about that term automatic, but I like that framing a lot.

01:05:06.520 I actually had an experience with my oldest son.

01:05:09.180 He's 17 now.

01:05:10.340 And about six months ago, he came to me and he's like, Hey dad, I'm going to get a tattoo.

01:05:13.580 I'm like, that's awesome.

01:05:14.640 When you turn 18, you can definitely get a tattoo.

01:05:17.140 And he's like, no, no, no, no, I'm going to get a tattoo now.

01:05:20.280 I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're not.

01:05:23.000 And he's like, no, um, mom got me a gift certificate to get a tattoo.

01:05:26.480 And I said, that's great.

01:05:27.340 Hang on to it for a year.

01:05:28.940 And then when you're 18, you can definitely do that.

01:05:32.060 And I remember him saying, you know, dad, like what if I just did it anyways?

01:05:38.920 And I said, well, I'd be really disappointed.

01:05:40.940 And he never did.

01:05:43.560 And just yesterday, he, we were talking with a friend and we got talking about this and

01:05:49.980 he's like, you know, I'm actually kind of glad my dad pushed back on that.

01:05:52.880 Like I probably will get a tattoo at some point, but like, I'll probably get something

01:05:57.380 different than I was going to get.

01:05:58.880 So I'm actually like, I'm glad he just kind of held to his guns a little bit.

01:06:02.880 I'm like, Oh, thank you.

01:06:03.760 Like now that's glad you cared enough to jump in.

01:06:06.440 Exactly.

01:06:06.940 Like I do care.

01:06:07.720 That's the point.

01:06:08.260 I care enough to do something that's uncomfortable for both of us.

01:06:13.180 And have him be frustrated.

01:06:15.200 Like the easier thing, the cool dad move would have been easy.

01:06:18.980 Like the cool dad move would have been like, go for it, whatever.

01:06:22.160 Like, but you were like, no, I can see further ahead than him.

01:06:25.700 And a year of thought and intentionality will only serve him more.

01:06:30.080 Like he'll like, he'll, he'll be glad he, you know, versus the, versus the opposite.

01:06:35.920 So yeah, I, I love, that's a great example.

01:06:38.240 And congrats that you got to hear the other side.

01:06:40.420 You often as a parent, don't get to see the other side so quickly.

01:06:43.940 It did.

01:06:44.560 It happened quick.

01:06:45.240 And I was like, okay, good.

01:06:46.300 Like I made a good decision and he acknowledged it.

01:06:49.380 And yeah, he was talking about all the tattoos he's going to get.

01:06:52.640 And I'm like, eh, I'm not a huge fan of that.

01:06:54.680 But when you're an adult, you can make those decisions, but you don't get to make them today.

01:07:00.080 Yeah.

01:07:00.680 That's a great lesson.

01:07:01.720 That's the exact point I was trying to make.

01:07:04.120 John, I appreciate you, man.

01:07:05.360 I really love our conversations.

01:07:06.960 It's been years since we had one, but every time you come out with a book, I'm like, I

01:07:10.180 got to talk with this guy before books, you know, in between books.

01:07:12.960 Cause I love it.

01:07:14.280 Next time you're in Nashville, let me know.

01:07:16.120 I will have you up in the office.

01:07:17.700 Yeah, I will.

01:07:18.260 You get out here much.

01:07:19.560 You know, I was out there about four months ago, five months ago, and I didn't look you

01:07:23.460 up, but I'm going to look you up now.

01:07:24.600 So yeah, we'll, we'll make sure we'll trade contact info once we get off next time you're

01:07:30.480 in, I'm in Franklin technically, but next time you're in Franklin, let me know.

01:07:33.760 Franklin's beautiful, man.

01:07:34.720 I love that area.

01:07:36.200 That's one of the areas that I will never leave Southern Utah, at least until my kids

01:07:41.040 are out of school at a, at a high school.

01:07:43.440 But that's one of the areas I would definitely visit.

01:07:46.340 It's beautiful.

01:07:47.180 John, how do we get ahold of you?

01:07:48.320 Yeah.

01:07:48.500 Utah is hard to leave, dude.

01:07:50.060 Utah is a hard state to leave.

01:07:52.020 It's amazing.

01:07:52.720 It's so good.

01:07:54.040 It's so, yeah, that's where we go ski.

01:07:56.140 If we, if we ever go skiing, we fly to Salt Lake, it's, and then you've got six, eight resorts

01:08:00.800 that are 40 minutes away.

01:08:02.260 And yeah, Utah, even in bad snow years, you know, snowbird has snow, like it's, oh man.

01:08:07.540 And so I'm a little further South.

01:08:08.900 I'm in Southern Utah.

01:08:09.840 So more desert climate, Las Vegas, Phoenix type climate, but still.

01:08:13.920 How far is Vegas from you?

01:08:15.100 Two hours.

01:08:15.620 We're two hours from Vegas.

01:08:17.040 Oh, okay.

01:08:17.580 And four hours from Salt Lake.

01:08:19.160 So we're closer to Vegas than we are Salt Lake.

01:08:21.320 Oh, that's wow.

01:08:21.940 So you fly out of Vegas more than us, Salt Lake?

01:08:23.680 Most of the time.

01:08:24.580 Yeah.

01:08:24.960 Most of the time out of Vegas.

01:08:26.300 Interesting.

01:08:26.880 Yeah.

01:08:27.380 Interesting.

01:08:27.720 Well, next time you're out, let me know.

01:08:29.180 I'll let you know.

01:08:29.980 Brother, how do we connect with you?

01:08:31.160 You've got the book, Procrastination Proof.

01:08:32.920 Let us know where to go.

01:08:33.840 You also mentioned a quiz.

01:08:35.320 I think it was called johnacuff.com slash quiz, but tell us where to go.

01:08:39.140 Yeah.

01:08:40.420 So yeah, the, the book's available anywhere books are sold.

01:08:42.800 I read the audio book and there's a bunch of bonus content in it.

01:08:45.600 So if you like podcasts, you probably like audio books.

01:08:47.900 I have a podcast called all it takes is a goal.

01:08:50.560 And then I'm all over LinkedIn and Instagram, all, all the spots.

01:08:55.220 We'll sync everything up.

01:08:56.400 I'm making a few notes, but I will sync everything up and let the guys know where to go.

01:09:01.200 I'm a huge fan.

01:09:02.080 And I've got all my books, my, all of your books in my bookshelf out there and I've recommended

01:09:06.000 them.

01:09:06.520 Oh, nice.

01:09:07.080 And I appreciate that.

01:09:08.000 Probably at this point, I'd have to look to confirm, but we've probably used every one

01:09:13.300 of your books for one of our books of the month inside of our iron council.

01:09:17.600 And so, you know, it's been significant in my life and the lives of the guys who band

01:09:22.940 with us as well.

01:09:24.720 Well, that's super encouraging.

01:09:25.800 I love that you, you love guys this way.

01:09:28.160 I do.

01:09:28.640 It's not easy being a man and you're, you're doing a lot of work for a lot of people.

01:09:32.380 Awesome.

01:09:32.760 Thanks, John.

01:09:33.140 Appreciate you, man.

01:09:34.900 Thanks, buddy.

01:09:36.940 All right, man.

01:09:37.520 There you go.

01:09:37.880 My conversation with the one and only John Acuff.

01:09:40.080 You can see, I was excited to be able to have the conversation with him.

01:09:43.220 I always just, I'm fascinated by his communication style, his information, the way he delivers

01:09:50.020 it.

01:09:50.640 It lands for me.

01:09:51.540 It resonates for me.

01:09:52.340 And I hope it does for you as well.

01:09:53.860 If it did, please make sure you pick up a copy of his newest book, Procrastination Proof,

01:09:58.840 and also follow him on LinkedIn and the gram and everywhere else.

01:10:02.720 And then do one other thing.

01:10:03.940 Just take a screenshot right now before you move on to your next podcast or move on with

01:10:08.360 your day or walk into your office.

01:10:09.860 Take a screenshot, post it up on Instagram, post it up on Facebook, tag John Acuff, A-C-U-F-F

01:10:17.320 and me, Ryan Michler.

01:10:18.980 That's M-I-C-H-L-E-R.

01:10:21.040 Tag us both.

01:10:21.680 And let guys know that you heard a really, really good podcast today, put it on your

01:10:26.480 stories, put it on your feed and just let people know that goes a long way in promoting

01:10:30.220 the visibility of what we're doing here and helping John out as well.

01:10:33.900 And then helping the people in your life who need to hear this message of reclaiming and

01:10:39.040 restoring masculinity.

01:10:40.040 So do that.

01:10:41.320 Join the men's forge at themensforge.com and make sure you subscribe.

01:10:45.800 We will be back for our Ask Me Anything tomorrow.

01:10:49.440 Until then, guys, go out there, take action, kill procrastination and become the man you

01:10:54.780 are meant to be.

01:10:56.380 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:10:59.380 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:11:03.420 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - March 17, 2026

JON ACUFF ｜ Stop Procrastination and Start Moving Forward

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