Order of Man - JONATHAN ISAAC ｜ Becoming Bold as Lions

00:00:00.000 Most of us would like to believe that in a moment, we are called to make a stand on our

00:00:04.660 principles that we would do it without hesitation. But can we say for certain that we would act in

00:00:09.760 accordance with what we believe when confronted with the risk of social alienation, ostracization

00:00:16.660 from our friends and family, potential loss of a job, and the financial insecurity that comes with

00:00:22.060 it. That's exactly what my guest NBA star, Jonathan Isaac, had to deal with when he decided

00:00:27.080 to stand for the national anthem when all of his teammates took a knee during the height

00:00:31.400 of the Black Lives Matter movement and the George Floyd case. Today, we talk about his decision to

00:00:36.520 do so, why people place labels on and attempt to dehumanize others, facing your fears by walking

00:00:42.880 with Christ, the power of social media and groupthink, and becoming bold as lions.

00:00:48.460 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart

00:00:53.140 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not

00:00:58.980 easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:06.120 This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call

00:01:11.400 yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler. I'm the host and the founder

00:01:16.920 of the Order of Man podcast and movement. Welcome here and welcome back. If you're just tuning in,

00:01:24.520 my goal is to have conversations with men like Jonathan Isaac and so many others and help learn

00:01:30.600 about what makes them tick, what helps them succeed, what failures they've had and overcome in the past

00:01:37.360 so that we can take that information and implement it in our own lives. Lord knows that I need

00:01:42.900 that advice and that input and that direction more than probably anybody else out there.

00:01:48.640 So I've said it often, I'm the biggest beneficiary and recipient of the work that we're doing here,

00:01:53.480 but regardless, I'm glad you're tuned in. And I hope that this message and this movement reaches

00:01:58.780 the masses. We're all in this battle together. And what I've realized is that all of us are

00:02:04.860 struggling in some way, but very few of us are addressing it and talking about it. So that's what

00:02:09.900 we're doing here. I want to just mention really quickly, our show sponsors. And of course,

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00:02:41.340 I recommend their Delta jeans. And I think they've got two or three new washes either available or

00:02:47.360 coming soon. So again, Origin USA. And then when you check out, use the code order because you're

00:02:52.140 going to save some cash. So OriginUSA.com, use the code order. All right, guys, let me introduce you

00:02:57.800 to Jonathan Isaac. He's an NBA superstar for the Orlando Magic, but that's not really the best way

00:03:03.800 to introduce him as we do talk about in this podcast, because he is more than what he does

00:03:08.600 for a living. Jonathan was thrust into the cultural limelight when he decided, as I said earlier,

00:03:13.740 to stand for the national anthem before a game in 2020, when all of his teammates took a knee.

00:03:19.160 He's since become a published author of his book, Why I Stand. And in that book, he chronicles not only

00:03:24.980 his decision to stand when others didn't, but his path from a scared and timid boy to a confident,

00:03:31.200 courageous man willing to stand by his convictions. He also talks extensively with me today about his

00:03:36.840 transformation to a man of faith and shares how that journey has given him the strength he needs

00:03:41.300 to succeed both on and off the basketball court. Jonathan, what's up, man? Thanks for joining me on

00:03:47.360 the podcast today. Ryan, thank you so much for having me, man. Yeah, I've been excited about it because

00:03:52.860 when I see a guy who's got courage and is willing to make a stand quite literally for things he

00:04:00.060 believes in, knowing that there's going to be backlash and there's going to be challenges,

00:04:04.240 it's unfortunately quite a rarity these days, it seems like. Yeah, no, I definitely agree with

00:04:09.520 you and I appreciate it. So I'm happy to be here, man. Yeah. You know, and really, I think what

00:04:16.080 outside of your basketball career, which I do want to get into a little bit, really what brought you

00:04:20.200 into a lot of the cultural limelight, if you will, is in 2020 standing up, you know, for the national

00:04:28.760 anthem, right? When everybody else was taking a knee and that was expected and you were quote unquote

00:04:34.040 supposed to do that and yet you made the decision not to do that. So I'd love to hear about that story

00:04:38.880 and why you made that decision and then we can get into maybe some of the backlash and the fallout and

00:04:43.340 all the things that came from that. Yeah, for sure, man. It was just such a crazy time.

00:04:49.020 And so to your point, it was like to everybody and even to myself, I was just a basketball player.

00:04:54.360 I was, you know, I had been a Christian since my rookie year in the NBA, you know, really became a

00:04:59.920 Christian in my rookie year in the NBA. I grew up in the faith, but it wasn't something that was real

00:05:03.920 to me or tangible. It wasn't until my rookie year when I really was like, I really want Jesus to be

00:05:08.520 Lord of my life. And I started to take steps and getting him, you know, first in my life. And then I saw

00:05:14.140 myself grow over time and over time, having the right people in my life, my pastor, my wife of

00:05:19.260 today, my church family, all those different things. I could see myself changing from the

00:05:23.040 individual that I used to be. I struggled with anxiety a ton when I was a, when I was a kid,

00:05:28.680 you know, the book that I wrote, why I stand it's behind me. It really does take you on the journey

00:05:33.080 of this kid who is plagued with anxiety, fear and self insecurity. But on the flip side is grows

00:05:39.120 into this amazing basketball player and he's going through how to balance that, you know,

00:05:43.760 really struggling with love and rejection and all those different things. It really does take you

00:05:48.260 on that story. But for the most part, I was just a Christian basketball player in the league that not

00:05:52.960 necessarily everybody knew about. You know, of course, people in Orlando are, you know, a lot of

00:05:57.220 people around the world knew of me just from basketball, but nothing on like the cultural space.

00:06:01.800 And so you have this, you have this crazy, tragic moment of George Floyd's death. And then,

00:06:07.980 you know, the world is on fire, you know, almost literally, pretty much literally.

00:06:12.180 Right.

00:06:12.800 Everyone is going around with their version of what is the right thing to do. You have the rise of the

00:06:18.520 Black Lives Matter organization and they are, they are, they are at the forefront of this is what

00:06:23.720 needs to be done. This is what white people need to do. This is what black people need to do. And

00:06:26.900 everyone needs to, you know, kowtow to whatever they say. And if you cross any lines, you're racist or

00:06:33.520 you don't care about black people. And so in the moment for me, it was like stepping back.

00:06:38.380 What is the right way for me to respond in this moment that is authentic to myself?

00:06:42.680 I didn't want to go along with anybody's narrative. I didn't want to just jump into a fight that I

00:06:47.040 didn't fully understand. I wanted to know where is the Black Lives Matter organization coming from?

00:06:52.300 Logically, ethically, who are they? What do they exactly represent? And what is the way that I feel

00:06:57.400 comfortable in going about this thing? Or even if I need to speak at all. And during the time,

00:07:01.940 it was during the riots that I was at church and our pastor preached about the story when Jesus is

00:07:07.940 about to be captured by the Roman guard and how Peter lunges forward and chops off the guard's ear.

00:07:13.540 And as humans, that would be our natural reaction. Someone we love, take it, the black community,

00:07:19.440 something that we love is at threat or in some way of being offended. And our initial response is to

00:07:25.920 fight. And Jesus says that if you live by the sword, you'll die by the sword. And I started to think

00:07:31.080 about, can I step into this moment in a way that won't just perpetuate the fight that has been

00:07:35.780 going on forever, white versus black, man versus man. And so I said, you know what? I want to choose 0.94

00:07:41.140 to love. And so we get into the NBA bubble, the NBA season starting again. And there's talks about

00:07:47.460 all of the NBA players, the staff, the referees all kneeling for the national anthem. And I was

00:07:52.840 thinking to myself, I don't want to do that. I don't want to go along with somebody's narrative.

00:07:57.060 I want my stance to be authentic to me. And what I started to think about is that, man,

00:08:01.240 we all fall short of God's glory. We've all made mistakes. We've all done things that are wrong.

00:08:05.660 And if we're going to be throwing stones, anybody, we're throwing stones from a glass house.

00:08:09.600 And so I just wanted to take the opportunity to remind people of that, that if we could choose

00:08:14.440 to love each other the way that God loves us, which is in spite of our sin, in spite of our

00:08:18.920 shortcomings, then we could see real change in this moment because it was a tragedy and it was

00:08:23.140 something that was wrong. But it's so easy to point fingers. It's so easy to think that your

00:08:27.140 stuff doesn't stink. And because of this tragic moment, a lot of people had that moral high ground

00:08:33.220 where it's like, OK, because this happened to Black people, we now can go on the assault and get 0.96

00:08:38.020 whatever we want out of the situation. And so I'm in the bubble and I'm thinking about it. And we have

00:08:43.420 a team meeting the day before we play. And the team officials come in and they say, hey, we're going

00:08:49.140 to leave this decision up to you guys. A team had already knelt the day of. And so, you know,

00:08:54.300 kind of the pressure was on. And so we get into the meeting, all the team officials leave and it's

00:08:58.140 just the players. And everybody's like, yo, this is a no brainer. We don't have a choice. Everyone

00:09:03.380 has to kneel. It's just it's just the way that it is. And one of my teammates turned towards me and

00:09:07.560 said, Jonathan, what are you going to do? And I said, fellas, I'm not kneeling and I'm not putting

00:09:11.880 that T-shirt on. And then everybody's like, oh, my gosh, this is crazy. This is going to be awful.

00:09:17.300 We leave the meeting and I'm still just thinking about what it is that I'm how I'm going to go

00:09:23.160 about it. And I was on the phone with my pastor that night. We were going to play the next day.

00:09:27.120 And I'm telling him, I don't think you understand how crazy this is going to be. I'm going to be a

00:09:31.160 coon. I'm going to be an Uncle Tom. I hadn't signed my contract extension yet. That was still up in the

00:09:36.140 air. So there was room at least for there to be, you know, you know, people get canceled all the time

00:09:40.240 for not going along with the crowd. And so there was that fear. But he said to me, you cannot stand

00:09:45.440 for God and God not stand for you. And that's the thing about the whole thing. It wasn't so much me

00:09:50.260 standing for what I thought that I believed and what I felt. I really had the sense to say, you

00:09:55.260 know what, God, I really do feel like this is your heart posture. Not that there isn't right and wrong

00:10:00.100 on both sides. But ultimately, if we can love through it, then, you know, you can't beat evil

00:10:05.760 with evil. You can't beat hate with hate. You can only beat it with love. And so I went through with

00:10:09.440 it. The next day we got to the moment and everybody, you know, knelt down and I was just praying to

00:10:14.140 myself like, God, like, you know, let my motives be pure. I don't want this thing to be about me.

00:10:18.700 And then, you know, after the game, I got thrust through with all the questions and I just tried

00:10:22.560 my best to answer as best as I could. But that was the heartbeat behind it. I do believe that the love,

00:10:28.080 I would say that I do believe that the antidote for the times that we're in, because racism and all

00:10:33.560 the things that plague our society are heart issues, you know, when it comes to men. And so an

00:10:39.080 organization, a movement, a political party, they're not going to change the hearts of men. It has to be

00:10:43.620 the gospel where we can look at ourselves and say, you know what, I've done wrong too and humble

00:10:47.160 ourselves. And so that's how I went about. Man, that's a crazy story. It sounds like your

00:10:54.100 motives are pure. I believe that, obviously. How did you reconcile knowing that it was going to

00:11:01.180 create a lot of contention? Because we also know that contention is not of God, right? So you knew

00:11:07.880 that it was, I assume you knew that it was going to create contention. If you didn't before,

00:11:13.060 you certainly knew in that team meeting. And so how do you reconcile knowing that it is going to

00:11:17.560 create contention? People are going to be upset and it's going to create a lot of problems, not just

00:11:22.400 for you, but just generally, it's going to create a lot of problems.

00:11:25.640 Yeah. I think the way that I thought about it was that this is going to open up room for conversation.

00:11:30.780 And that's really all I wanted. After I had stood the next day, we can get into this a little later,

00:11:38.780 but we had the players called a player only meeting after I stood. And a couple of the guys were going

00:11:43.840 at me about my decision and everything like that. And what I said to them was like, guys, I see what

00:11:49.020 you guys see. I'm not negating that George Floyd died tragically and wrongfully. I'm not debating

00:11:54.280 that. I see what you see. I just have a different answer. And so I think in trying to not,

00:11:59.920 I'm not trying to drum up confrontation or to make anyone angry. I'm just saying, this is what

00:12:05.520 I perceive to be true. The same way that I respected you guys' stance in kneeling, I asked

00:12:10.760 for that same respect in return. And so that's how we were able to leave out of that meeting.

00:12:16.200 Did, what was the response? It sounds like beforehand, there was a lot of frustration,

00:12:23.360 maybe to put it mildly, around your decision. What was the response after you talked with the guys?

00:12:28.780 And of course, after you stood up from the guys, as you explained, here's my motives. Here's why I'm

00:12:34.220 doing this. Here's the answer that I see. Were they respectful of that? Was there any fallout with

00:12:40.960 players, friends, that sort of thing?

00:12:43.180 Well, it was just definitely divided. It was divided. And I understand why, because it was a highly

00:12:49.340 emotional time. And I don't want to negate the power of media, the power of groupthink in the way

00:12:59.920 that things get to move in our country, the power of politicization. And so I understood that guys

00:13:06.820 were, guys cared. And as they should, they cared about what was going on in the Black community and

00:13:12.120 how they could best serve to help it. Again, it was me just saying, hey, guys, I think that this is

00:13:16.860 the right answer for me. I believe that the love of Jesus Christ is going to be the thing that

00:13:21.380 changes the world. I know it's hard. Who wants to love their enemies? Who wants to love their

00:13:25.280 neighbor when they've been wrong? But I believe it is the thing that's going to help us to come

00:13:28.440 together in time. And so, so yeah, so, you know, some guys were, you know, absolutely, you know,

00:13:34.360 upset at me. And I understood, I understood it. And I've been able to have conversations over time.

00:13:39.200 Some of the same guys that, you know, were really upset in the bubble, a year down the line,

00:13:43.780 we could sit down and have a conversation. And one of my teammates even asked me, we were sitting

00:13:47.740 down for breakfast and he said to me, would you do anything differently now that you get a chance

00:13:53.920 to look back? And I was like, honestly, bro, no, I wouldn't. I liked the fact that we were able to

00:14:00.040 have conversations. I knew it was a heated moment, but I still believe what I believe. And I asked him

00:14:04.400 the same question right back. And he said, yeah, he said, I would. He said, you know, honestly,

00:14:08.560 I kind of fell into the movement. I fell into the hype of it all. And now, you know, as time has

00:14:14.520 passed, you see where the Black Lives Matter organization is at, you know, some of the things

00:14:18.880 that have come out about the way that they spent funds and all those different things. I'm not

00:14:22.520 trying to, you know, bash them or anything, but, you know, people were able to say, maybe that wasn't

00:14:27.740 the right way to go about the situation. And because it was such a, you know, high, highly emotional

00:14:32.660 situation. Yeah. And I think those highly emotional situations require restraint, require

00:14:38.940 control. And if it's a good decision now, then it's going to be a good decision tomorrow or the

00:14:43.640 next day or the next day. I remember to a lesser degree, I can't remember the date, but where

00:14:49.180 everybody posted the black square on their Instagram or their social media profiles. And I didn't do that

00:14:54.500 because I didn't even know what that meant. Like, you know, I'm like, what, what, what is this

00:15:00.180 supposed to mean? And everybody had a different thought and a different interpretation of this.

00:15:04.080 And so I didn't post that little black square. And man, I had people blowing up my inbox and

00:15:08.400 telling me like, oh, I can't believe you do this and you're racist and you don't care about this

00:15:12.420 stuff. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I, that stuff's important to me, but I want to make sure

00:15:16.780 that if I'm going to put something that has my, my endorsement on it, that I know what in the world

00:15:23.360 it is that I'm saying. Otherwise, I mean, what kind of spine do I have?

00:15:27.780 Yeah, honestly, a lot of that stuff, you know, as, as, as hard it is to say, a part of it is the

00:15:34.840 control piece where it's like, this is what we set as the way to mourn for what happened or the way to

00:15:42.700 pay tribute to what happened. And if we can get as many people, you know, almost, almost literally

00:15:49.100 to force them to do this, then we have a level of power in it. And part of the reason why I did

00:15:55.020 disagree with the, the entire thing, you know, with the NBA was that it wasn't a choice. It felt

00:16:00.580 like a demand. It did the way they, they staged it was, you know, we're doing this in symbolism

00:16:05.080 for the support of black lives matter and what's happening in our country. But for me and a lot of

00:16:10.260 the other players, you know, a lot of our people, it felt like a command. They didn't go about it in

00:16:14.540 that way. So a lot of the things with the black lives matter movement, it was like, you either do 0.56

00:16:18.440 this or, or, or you're racist. If you're, if you are wearing the t-shirt and you are kneeling,

00:16:22.920 you're for the cause, whether you are racist in your personal life or not, but if you don't have

00:16:27.200 it on, then, you know, you are racist. Absolutely. There is no other way to support black lives than

00:16:31.860 to do what we say. And I was like, man, you know, my life has been supported by the gospel. I've seen

00:16:36.520 plenty of the lives supported by the gospel and I'm not going to, you know, almost, you know,

00:16:40.840 kneel to your demands. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's interesting how those demands come about.

00:16:46.680 Obviously I wasn't there and I don't have the familiarity that you do, but it's, it's a form

00:16:51.200 of, um, cultural, uh, extortion maybe, or blackmail. I'm not really quite sure how to put it,

00:17:00.440 but I think I can see where you're going. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, like culturally,

00:17:06.200 there's so many ramifications for doing that and societally and just the peer pressure of it that

00:17:10.580 maybe they weren't, you know, they didn't have a gun to your head necessarily, but man, there's some

00:17:14.340 real world consequences, even just being ostracized from your brothers, the guys on your team,

00:17:19.000 your players, you guys got to work together on a daily basis, man. That's some, that's some huge

00:17:23.780 pressure that I don't think a lot of people, even myself, like I have to ask, would I be willing to

00:17:28.360 do that? You know, um, I would like to think I would, but you don't really know until you're tested.

00:17:34.860 Yeah, for sure. And that's part of the reason why I think that it had to happen. And even more so

00:17:39.900 that I had to write a book about it because it's, it's not even so much that I stood and, and yeah,

00:17:45.500 it was a courageous moment, all that. And everybody says that it was cool for me personally. It was the

00:17:50.540 indication that I had grown to a place to where I was comfortable with standing up for what I believed

00:17:55.320 in, because in time, in my past, I wouldn't have been able to. And so when I say that I was struggling

00:18:00.360 with anxiety, like my, my freshman year at Florida state, I am the number one player in the state of

00:18:05.580 Florida, um, basketball wise, and I'm taking anxiety medication just to practice and to play.

00:18:10.980 Nobody knows about it. Um, you know, one of my teammates know one trainer knows, and one coach

00:18:15.700 knows my family doesn't know, my friends don't know. Um, but I'm struggling internally with being

00:18:21.180 able to live up to, you know, being big men on campus. And I'm, I'm really struggling. I had a,

00:18:25.580 you know, episode of having a panic attack and passing out in my study hall. Um, and so I would not

00:18:31.020 have been the guy who would have said, I care so deeply about a matter that I'm willing to stand up

00:18:36.600 and then stand alone. And so for me, it was just a reassurance that the transformational, um, that

00:18:44.520 the transformation that happens, you know, in a relationship with Christ is real and it's powerful.

00:18:48.540 And I could see that in, you know, my present day life. And that's why I think, you know, that the book

00:18:53.260 was necessary. And for people to say, you know what, um, you know, God has no respect of persons and this

00:18:58.320 guy isn't some special individual that just has so much courage. He's not because you could read the

00:19:03.120 story and see all the things that he went through and how he struggled and how he, you know, collapsed

00:19:07.520 under fear so many times, but today he is someone who was willing to do it. So I can too.

00:19:13.120 Hmm, man. I have so much. I want to unpack there. You said something interesting about the big man on

00:19:19.200 campus. And I think a lot of people who are tuning into this podcast, uh, would look at somebody like

00:19:26.180 yourself or other successful people that we've had on and think, man, that guy's got it all right.

00:19:31.640 He's got the life. He's got the job. He's got the notoriety. He's got the income. And then somebody

00:19:38.280 like you says, man, I had all of this anxiety or somebody else says I was dealing with, um, difficult

00:19:44.380 issues in my relationship or dealing with addiction. And I think people have a hard time understanding how

00:19:51.380 much pressure comes from being good and wanting to be the best and then having some, some level of

00:20:01.700 success and the pressure and demands that come with that, that a lot of people just don't experience.

00:20:06.760 Yeah, no, I would agree. I think at the, at the base level, we are all human. And so I try my best to,

00:20:13.680 even when I'm looking at somebody that, you know, on the outside has it all together, has what everybody

00:20:18.820 seems like they want. I know people and I know us as humans and that we all struggle in, in, in,

00:20:24.840 in several ways, um, with our own mentality, with our own, you know, reassuring ourselves in any way.

00:20:30.320 And for me, the key for me was, was finding my identity in Christ for, for so long, I found my

00:20:36.780 identity in basketball where it was like, the only thing that was good about me was what I could do on a

00:20:41.380 basketball court. And so I never wanted to mess up. If I did mess up and then the love that I had gained

00:20:47.280 and the attention that I had gained would be taken from me. And so, so many people, part of the reason

00:20:52.200 why they're good at what they do is because they stress so hard about being good at what they do.

00:20:56.540 Um, so they can be accepted and liked and loved by other people. And, um, as soon as you take that

00:21:01.740 away, then, then who are they and what do they really have? And so for me, that, that struggle of

00:21:06.440 anxiety up and down was like, I know that I'm talented, but I don't want to mess up. I don't want to fail

00:21:10.960 because I don't want to lose what I've gained. And when I was able to really take a step back and again,

00:21:15.260 through the mentorship of my pastor at Jump Ministries Global Church that I go to now,

00:21:18.860 but just like being able to walk through and like, God loves me for me. And I was so used to working

00:21:23.740 on the basketball court for, for, for love or for, for attention where it was like, God loves me for

00:21:28.060 me. And I can finally breathe and find my identity and what he says about me, not what the world says

00:21:32.680 about me. And I think that as people who are successful, the more that we can find our identity

00:21:38.120 outside of what makes us successful, exact outside of what we do, um, the more relatable and the more

00:21:44.600 real we can be and not just flex what we have or what we do as, um, our value.

00:21:51.240 I'm taking notes here. You said finding identity outside of what you do.

00:21:55.980 Right. What, what, what, what makes you successful in the, in, you know, in the world's eyes?

00:22:00.900 So you said you grew up in the faith, but you didn't always believe. And it wasn't until your,

00:22:07.620 was it your rookie year? Is that what you said? Where you did something happen during that time or

00:22:12.500 what happened? It's, it's an interesting story. So I, I grew up in, I grew up in Bronx, New York.

00:22:18.760 Um, my dad was like super Christian. Like we were in church all the time above Baptist Pentecostal

00:22:25.340 church in New York, but it was just traditional, right? Like he, he tried our best to, he tried his

00:22:30.640 best to really instill in us the principles and the seeds of, um, of faith and trusting God and doing

00:22:35.920 right. But the trend, the traditional form of going to church and singing songs, that's all that was for

00:22:41.140 me. It wasn't something that was like, this is tangibly real. I believe in a risen savior that

00:22:46.800 died for my sins and, and I want him to be Lord of my life. So he can lead me and guide me into who

00:22:51.340 he created me to be. That's where I am now, but that's not where I was before. And so when I was

00:22:56.080 able to, um, latch onto basketball, so, so this is important too. So my parents split up when I was

00:23:02.200 about 10 years old and I moved from Bronx, New York to Naples, Florida. And so I left like a black 0.99

00:23:06.920 community to a predominantly white community. And that's really where my anxiety started. I was,

00:23:11.520 I wasn't an anxious kid in New York, but once I got to Naples, I really struggled with fitting in

00:23:17.080 and I had, you know, details in the course, detailed in the book, there's a couple of stories of just

00:23:21.680 like how terribly I failed at fitting in. Um, one time, uh, in, in New York, it was all about horseplay.

00:23:28.280 Like that's how you made friends, you know, in, in, in, you know, in the Bronx growing up,

00:23:32.200 you fight with a kid, you mess with them, y'all friends the next day. Like that's how it works.

00:23:35.960 Um, when I got to Naples, I would grab kids by the ankles and drag them. I was bigger than

00:23:40.700 everybody else, but that was my form of like, I'm, I'm, I'm a playful kid, like play with me.

00:23:45.320 And, uh, a few days later, I tried to do it again. And the security guard was waiting for me. Like

00:23:50.220 they, they set me up and, uh, I'm in the principal's office and they call my mom and the principal is

00:23:55.860 like seriously concerned about the wellbeing of the students. And my mom is like, he's just a kid.

00:24:01.780 Like he just came from New York. You just got to cut him some slack. And that was the first time

00:24:05.540 that I really became self-aware where I was like, I messed up. Like these kids don't like me and I'm

00:24:10.480 going to have to try another thing to fit in. And so I was the class clown. I was all these

00:24:14.820 different things trying to gain the acceptance of my peers. My nickname was Ethiopia because I was

00:24:20.620 so sweet and tall and dark. And so that, that, that made me struggle as well. But then I found

00:24:25.380 basketball and that the more I put into basketball, the more, you know, the guys wanted to hang with me.

00:24:30.560 The girls started to like me because of the basketball player that I was. So I put everything

00:24:34.240 into it. And then I still had that fear of the little kid, Jonathan, that wasn't accepted.

00:24:39.080 And so, uh, I never wanted to mess up on the basketball court because I'd lose. I felt like

00:24:43.340 I'd lose the love and the attention of the people who came to me because of basketball. And so I'm,

00:24:48.760 I'm living my life. I have this picture in my head of what a man is. And so that's the money,

00:24:54.080 that's the car, that's the women. And so that's, that's what I'm chasing. You know, honestly, 0.99

00:24:58.140 I make it to the NBA. I'm the sixth pick in the NBA draft and I get to Orlando and I'm living my

00:25:03.280 life. Uh, I have these moments of, of unfulfillment. I remember one time I was,

00:25:09.020 I was coming home from the club and, uh, I get home and I looked myself in my bathroom mirror and

00:25:14.160 I'm like, what are you doing? I was almost, I was almost trying to have a good time. It wasn't

00:25:20.260 something that was, that was easy or instinctual. I was forcing myself to, to, to, to become something

00:25:26.540 that I just wasn't. And so, uh, I had these little moments of, of, of, of unfulfillment and,

00:25:32.440 and, and realizing that man, um, all this thing isn't as much as it's not as cracked up as it is

00:25:38.500 to be. And then, uh, the season starts and a teammate invites me to a chapel. We have chapel

00:25:44.000 like 60 minutes before every game. And, uh, I go to the chapel and the chaplain says, you know,

00:25:49.320 we're going to go over this verse, Luke 6 46. And the verse says, why do you call me Lord,

00:25:53.560 Lord and not do what I say? And the verse hit me like a ton of bricks. I was like, oh man,

00:25:59.240 I was like, that's me. Like, you know, because even though I had those seeds from growing up,

00:26:03.760 so I would, if I was playing bad, I would listen to Christian music until I started playing well

00:26:09.220 again. And then I go back to the regular music. Um, I went to church, you know, from here and,

00:26:13.760 you know, here and there, but it wasn't something that was really, um, I, I consistent. And so I had

00:26:19.160 these moments of like one foot in one foot out. If things were going bad in my life,

00:26:22.960 I knew where to revert to, to faith in order to help me get back. And then I just, you know,

00:26:27.320 forget it all. And so I was like, man, that's me. I I'm the one who says Lord, Lord, and doesn't

00:26:31.840 honestly care about what Jesus has to say. Um, so the verse just stuck with me and it stuck with me

00:26:36.960 so much to the point where I was like, you know what, I'm going to figure this thing out for myself.

00:26:40.840 It's either I'm going to be a Christian and I'm going to be committed or I'm not. And I'm going to

00:26:44.780 drop the label altogether because even during that time, if someone had asked me if I was a Christian,

00:26:48.740 I would have said, yeah, I would have said, yeah, sure. Even though I wasn't living that way.

00:26:53.140 And so I went on this binge of like Christian apologetics. So that's all of the arguments

00:26:58.580 and the defense for the faith, the Kalam cosmological argument, the moral argument,

00:27:02.380 all these different things. And I'm listening to John Lennox, William Lane Craig, Frank Turek,

00:27:06.600 Robbie Zacharias. Um, I even signed up for a, for a Biola university course. It's like a,

00:27:12.440 uh, an apologetics university. So I w I was in, um, and I could, I really started to entertain the,

00:27:18.680 the, the, the, that there could be a real God. I wasn't all the way there in terms of like,

00:27:24.280 you know, putting my faith in Jesus all the way, but I was like, there, there could be a God based

00:27:27.660 on these arguments. And then something, this is where something happens. I'm on an elevator one day.

00:27:32.720 It's my rookie year. I'm sorry if I'm, um, this is a long story. No, it's good. I love hearing about it.

00:27:38.260 It's my rookie year and I'm on the elevator and I'm, I'm about to get on the elevator.

00:27:42.080 And a gentleman walks up, he's about to get on the elevator too. So I assume he lived, he lived in

00:27:45.980 the building and he stopped me and he said, I can tell you how to be great. And I said, how?

00:27:51.660 He said, you have to know Jesus. And I was like, man, I know Jesus. I'm a Christian, but I just

00:27:56.280 played it off. Um, and then I kept running into the guy. I run into him. I hadn't seen him before.

00:28:02.420 I just started running to him, like in the front of the building, you know, parking garage elevator.

00:28:07.460 And he would always ask me to go to lunch with him. And I was like, honestly, I didn't want to

00:28:12.040 go to lunch with them. Part of, part of my like anxiety was that I didn't want anybody to get close

00:28:16.600 to me. And so I was, I walked around with like a, you know, a guard up. And so this guy's asking me

00:28:22.440 to go to lunch with him. I'm like, there's no way, you know? Uh, and so finally I see him so many times

00:28:27.120 that I'm like, look guy, if I see you one more time, I'll go to lunch with you. I see him again.

00:28:31.740 I go to, I drop what I'm doing right there. I'm like, we're going to lunch right now. We go to

00:28:35.700 lunch, we exchange numbers, we get to lunch and it was just a casual conversation. You know, we

00:28:39.960 talked about God a little bit, but not necessarily. It was more so just getting to know me and me

00:28:43.540 getting to know him. I leave the lunch and I delete his number from my phone. And so I'm like, I don't

00:28:48.680 have to see you anymore. So I don't see him anymore. And then the upcoming weekend, a friend of mine,

00:28:53.700 he was my trainer back in Naples, my high school trainer, invites me to go to the movies with him and

00:28:57.720 his wife. He's in town. We go to see a Christian film. It gets better. And the Christian film is

00:29:02.540 terrible. We leave the Christian film halfway through. That's important for timing wise. 1.00

00:29:06.600 We leave the Christian film halfway through and we go watch Thor. We go to watch Thor,

00:29:11.360 finish Thor. It's like a three hour movie. And, um, we're sitting outside of the movie theater and

00:29:15.960 he's like, man, where are you at with God? And I'm like, you know, honestly, I don't know. Like I'm,

00:29:20.440 I'm, I'm reading, I'm researching. I don't, I don't really know. And he says, look,

00:29:23.880 if you keep knocking, you keep asking, you'll find. And I I'm pulling out of the movie theater

00:29:29.260 and I'm pulling onto the street. I'm making a right turn. Then there's a car making a left turn

00:29:33.680 on the opposite lane that way. And I look out the window as our cars are passing and I stopped my

00:29:39.420 car. And then that car stops his car. And, uh, I rolled down my window and it's the guy from the

00:29:44.620 elevator. Really? It's like, it's like 1130 at night. And I said to myself, yo, God wants this guy in

00:29:51.320 my life. I don't know. I don't know what this is. And so, um, we laugh, you know, and then, uh,

00:29:57.820 uh, we leave. I tell him, look, you and me breakfast tomorrow. We go to breakfast the next

00:30:02.440 morning. Um, and I'm telling him about this idea that I had. And I was reading in the Bible about

00:30:06.980 how, uh, whatever you do for the least of these you do for me. Um, so I was going to buy a bunch

00:30:12.180 of burgers from McDonald's and pass it out to the homeless. I'm telling him this. And he says,

00:30:15.080 you can't do that. And I'm like, why not? He's like, if you're going to feed people,

00:30:18.400 you have to feed people. Right. And so he's like, he has, he has a catering company that feeds

00:30:22.860 prisons. And so he's like, if you buy the food, I'll have my people cook it. And we'll really do

00:30:27.420 something for the homeless the right way. So I'm like, sure. Okay. So I'm following him to Sam's

00:30:31.580 club. And I'm saying to myself the whole time, what are you doing? You don't even know who this

00:30:35.700 guy is. And then I said, I said to myself in the car, something about this feels right.

00:30:39.760 So I follow him. I buy the food. Um, I give it to him. Some people come pick it up. And the next

00:30:44.560 weekend, I get a text with an address. Um, fast forward it. I go to the address. There's a line

00:30:49.680 of like 200 homeless people outside of this plaza. I jump in line. I put my hair net on.

00:30:54.740 There's a beautiful young lady next to me serving food who is now my wife today. Um, uh, so I'm,

00:31:01.300 I'm serving food. Um, uh, we have a great time and something about it stuck with me. I was like,

00:31:07.940 and I was thinking to myself, God loves me. And, and I don't know exactly why I was thinking about

00:31:12.000 this, but it was like, someone was ordering my footsteps outside of my control. And it was

00:31:16.660 the first time that I kind of like dropped my shoulders. Cause I was so used to being so tense

00:31:21.420 and anxious where I dropped my shoulders and I said, God loves me. Um, and someone's looking out

00:31:25.800 for me. And that night I got on, I got on my knees for the first time at my bed that I had the entire

00:31:31.300 time I was in Orlando. And I remember the youth group prayer, you know, you know, Jesus be Lord of my

00:31:36.260 life, come into my heart. And then I started, uh, I started to hang out with that friend a lot more.

00:31:41.380 His name was doc. And he invites me to church. He invites me to church. I say, look, if you're

00:31:46.320 cool, your pastor has to be cool. I'll go. I go to church. They introduced the pastor and his doc.

00:31:51.860 Oh, really? And so, uh, I've been to the church now for like five years. I married the young lady

00:31:58.260 that was next to me in line. She was already attending the church. Um, we've been married

00:32:02.280 going on a year now, uh, in September, on September 18th. And, you know, we haven't looked back.

00:32:07.000 So congrats on your marriage, man. That's exciting. No, it's, it's awesome. I loved hearing that.

00:32:13.960 It's, it's a very powerful Testament to your relationship with God and walking in his steps

00:32:19.960 and that pastor doc being in your life and then meeting your wife like that. That's divine,

00:32:26.860 man. That's that, that, that's no way that's coincidence at all. That's my invention.

00:32:30.800 And now that was the thing that really got my attention where it was like, I could pinpoint

00:32:34.520 that it wasn't of my own, you know, volition. And it was like, man, somebody's out there looking

00:32:39.680 out for me. And I don't think it's just a coincidence. All right, guys, I'm going to

00:32:44.820 break away from the conversation just very briefly. Uh, I have great news after a much anticipated

00:32:50.540 wait, our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council is opening back up next week for a very, very short

00:32:56.280 period. Uh, this will be the last time that we open up the council until next year. So

00:33:01.460 if you're on the fence about joining us now is the time to do it. And when you band with

00:33:05.980 us, you're going to get all of the tools and resources that you need to thrive and achieve

00:33:10.740 in every aspect of your life. And what I believe to be most important, especially as I've been

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00:33:22.440 men who are all walking the same path as you. These are men who will have your back, uh,

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00:33:42.540 that's order a man.com slash iron council. We open up September 15th. All right, guys, for

00:33:47.640 now let's get back to it. Jonathan, where do you suggest that somebody start on this path?

00:33:53.820 Because there's a lot of men, myself included, who's trying to find this spiritual journey for

00:33:58.160 myself. I've always been faithful. Um, I've always been religious even, right. But still kind of feel

00:34:07.420 like I've just been dabbling my toe in the water, maybe much like you did. So where does a guy

00:34:14.100 actually start this real journey to discovering and uncovering this for himself?

00:34:20.800 Yeah, man. So there's a verse that says, taste and see that the Lord is good. Um, and so for me,

00:34:28.160 especially growing up there, there was so much, um, that I always felt like God was trying to take

00:34:32.960 something from me, right. The, the fun, the life that everyone else is living out here, the party scene,

00:34:37.980 all those different things. I'm like, God is trying to take something from me. But the, the,

00:34:41.760 the minute that I said, you know what, I want to know if this thing is real. And I dove in,

00:34:46.340 I, I, I found that he wasn't trying to take anything from me. He was trying to get something

00:34:50.280 to me. And so the, the realization that God really is a good father and he wants the best for you.

00:34:55.980 And he has a plan and a destiny for your life that crazily supersedes whatever you think is good for

00:35:02.140 you. Um, you know, that the world has to offer. And the more that I've been able to dive into it,

00:35:07.500 the more that I've seen the blessings of it, I've seen the, the transformation and growth and inside

00:35:12.260 of myself, I've seen where I need help. I've seen my own shortcomings and lackings and how God has

00:35:18.080 helped me to, um, to, to work through that. And so I would just encourage anybody to, to, to continue

00:35:24.260 to try. Um, when I, when I, uh, somebody, I was having a conversation with a guy the other day and

00:35:31.180 he asked me like, how do you begin to put God first in your life? And how do you know that you're doing

00:35:35.880 that? And what I told him was that for me, it, it all starts with a decision at the end of the day,

00:35:40.960 we have to choose. But for me, it started, it was slow, but I could tell that my heart was changing

00:35:46.100 when it was like, I had these two options in front of me and in past my, my first option would have

00:35:51.860 been easily gone in the other direction, but there was something inside of me that said, you know what,

00:35:56.060 I may not want to do that. And I may want to go the other way. And I started to see my, my, my,

00:36:01.200 my choices change, my instincts change where I was like, not perfection, but my heartbeat was being

00:36:06.620 toward wanting to please God. Um, and so finding out what he likes, finding out what, what honors

00:36:13.060 God and trying my best to do that in my life. And I could start to see myself change myself, get

00:36:17.960 better. Um, and then obviously getting into a real local church where you're around other believers,

00:36:23.540 um, you can be encouraged. You can encourage other believers, but steadily getting that word inside of

00:36:29.160 yourself, inside of your spirit to where you're identifying with what the pastor is saying and

00:36:33.280 growing in that way. There is no perfect church. I have to say that because there are no perfect

00:36:37.520 people. Um, my pastor always says, if you find a perfect church, don't go cause you'll mess it up.

00:36:42.180 And so, and so, so yes, I would say definitely slowly, but surely, but at the end of the day,

00:36:48.100 it's a choice. We all make choices. We all choose. And you can choose to say, you know what, God,

00:36:53.500 I want you, I want you to be first in my life. I want to do this thing the right way,

00:36:57.620 the real way. And then you, you walk down that path, you go to church, you ask questions. Um,

00:37:02.360 you know, how do I become a believer? Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus,

00:37:06.280 that God raised Jesus from the dead, um, get baptized as a, uh, as a symbol to the world,

00:37:10.900 that you're a believer. Um, all of that is important and all of that, you know, will get

00:37:14.600 you on your journey. You said something really interesting a bit ago when you were talking about

00:37:19.220 your, that, that moment where you decided to stand amongst your, your teammates. And you said that

00:37:25.080 you wanted to choose love and you, and you tied it into the, the love that Christ has for us and for

00:37:31.460 you. And you wanted to express that love. How was you making a stand in that moment, a symbolism of

00:37:38.560 love? Like, how did you connect those dots? So I would say it wasn't necessarily the stand that was,

00:37:45.540 um, to me, that was love. It was the mess. Now that was love. I felt that standing was the right

00:37:52.000 thing for me to do. And the reason behind it was that I didn't want to bash the other side. I felt

00:37:57.940 like the tone and the, uh, the rhetoric of the Black Lives Matter movement and organization was not

00:38:03.420 right. I don't think it was fruitful for the coming together of black and white people. And so I didn't 1.00

00:38:09.740 want to go along with what they were doing. I wanted to, to do what, you know, we normally do. We

00:38:13.860 stand for the national anthem. You know, I love this country. This is what I want to do. But my message

00:38:18.200 behind it was that of love is that I'm not bashing white people. I'm not against white people

00:38:22.420 because I've made mistakes in my own life. Yes. What happened to George Floyd was tragic and wrong

00:38:26.820 and Derek Chauvin, you know, should be punished for it. But at the end of the day, if I was in his

00:38:32.520 shoes, I would want mercy. I would want somebody to say, you're not an evil person. Um, you made a

00:38:37.960 mistake or, or, or, or whatever someone would say about me, I would want that. And so, because I would

00:38:42.120 want that, I would want to give that to somebody else. And so, uh, that, that was the message of

00:38:46.200 love that I was trying to get across, not necessarily in standing. That makes sense.

00:38:50.220 That makes sense. What, what, what has been your own personal experience with racism? I know when

00:38:56.700 you said you moved to Florida, you probably experienced it more so than you did in New

00:39:00.840 York. I imagine. Uh, what was that like as a young kid and how did you confront that? And how did you

00:39:07.900 deal with that? I mean, even with your nickname, obviously racism is, is, is something that exists,

00:39:13.920 but I'm very curious how you dealt with it. Yeah, no, it was, it was, it was hard. And it

00:39:17.980 was something that I didn't fully understand. Um, because in the Bronx, you know, we were all black,

00:39:22.720 we were all black. And there wasn't, you never really heard that, you know, a term or anything

00:39:28.840 like that negatively or, uh, exactly towards you. It was a, it was a term of endearment. We would mess

00:39:35.320 around with each other, call each other that word. Um, and when I got to Naples and then obviously my

00:39:40.180 nickname was Ethiopia, I had a, there was an incident in class, um, where, uh, there was,

00:39:45.980 there was this student, this, this guy, I forget his name, but, um, I was one of the only black kids

00:39:50.440 in the class. Um, and he actually had said the N word out loud, you know, directed towards me and

00:39:56.000 the teacher yelled at him. Um, but that was really all that happened. And so, um, it was tough for me.

00:40:00.860 I re I really did seclude into like the shell of myself, like trying not to step on anybody's toes,

00:40:05.660 um, or make anybody angry because I felt like that would be the route that they would take in terms

00:40:11.920 of, um, you know, an action back towards me. And so, um, it was difficult. I think where my

00:40:17.680 understanding, um, has come from again, is that racism is real. I'm not saying that racism doesn't

00:40:24.120 exist, but I know that it's a hard issue. Um, I know that it's something that's learned. I, I, I don't

00:40:30.660 the same way that I wouldn't, um, what's the word I'm looking for, uh, judge people for something

00:40:36.580 that I've seen. You know, when people come into church, my job isn't to judge them. My job is to

00:40:40.520 love them where they're at and let the Holy spirit do its job. And so when I see somebody who is racist,

00:40:45.520 you know, my, my initial reaction isn't to judge them. My initial reaction is to understand,

00:40:49.600 um, that it's a heart issue and it's something that they have to work out with God. Um, but I know

00:40:54.520 what does change people. And so again, that moment of why are you, why are you standing when everyone

00:41:00.260 is kneeling in, in support of racism is because it's in, in against racism is because I know what

00:41:05.620 truly does heal racism. And it is a heart change of a human being. And that doesn't happen by a

00:41:10.640 protest. Yeah, that's interesting. I agree with that because protests are inflammatory, but by design,

00:41:17.440 right, they're supposed to be confrontational and contentious. Uh, and then they, they tend to

00:41:22.600 escalate at times, but you know, you think about conversations like this, where men and women are

00:41:27.260 sitting down one-to-one trying to figure each other out and trying to understand this is where

00:41:31.800 it comes from. And so, you know, you might have a foot on me, uh, and you might be darker skin than

00:41:38.300 I am, but really I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, yeah, I'm dealing with the same stuff he

00:41:43.080 was dealing with. And there's that commonality that brings us together. You know, and, and even,

00:41:49.500 even to that point, you know, so much of today's day, um, you know, Twitter and social media and,

00:41:55.440 and, and, and, and, you know, the, how everything has become so, um, politicized and it's, it's almost

00:42:00.980 like getting rid of the conversation. I don't have to see you as a human being. If I can see you as a

00:42:06.680 term, as a racist, as a, uh, you know, what we call it as a xenophobe or, or, or, or whatever,

00:42:13.240 a transphobe, I don't have to see you as an individual. I don't have to know what you've been

00:42:17.700 through, know what you've walked through. I can just label you as that term. And because that term

00:42:21.440 is so, um, you know, heightened and, and, and evil in so many people's eye, I can then I'm justified

00:42:27.800 in my reactions towards you, where if, if we, if even somebody who was those things was able to sit

00:42:33.480 down with another human being and have a conversation, it would humanize them. If they were

00:42:37.480 able to hear where they came from or what they learned when they were a kid or what they went

00:42:40.860 through, um, it was humanized individual in a way that you wouldn't be able to just label them and,

00:42:46.000 and, and dismiss them. And so I think that, um, to your point, when we are able to sit down and have

00:42:51.600 conversations and that's almost exactly what the opposite of protests do at times, because the,

00:42:56.040 the message can get lost, um, in the vastness of, of, you know, what you're shooting for,

00:43:01.400 what you're aiming for to get done. And so, uh, so yeah. I, I even think with protests, you know,

00:43:06.740 you have, uh, and I think a lot of, a lot of protest type situations can, can be with the right

00:43:12.960 motives, but then you have other actors come in, whether they're ignorant or bad actors come in

00:43:19.560 and they're not there for the right reasons. And then the message or the original objective or goal

00:43:25.460 is lost through corruption and ignorance. And it just turns into this big show that, uh, doesn't

00:43:32.540 produce any sort of results. I agree. And, and I even saw that happen a couple of times with the

00:43:37.740 black lives matter movement where, you know, people showed up for one reason and, and, you know,

00:43:41.040 other bad actors came in and wanted to burn things down and go about it in a negative way.

00:43:45.240 Yeah. So it's interesting with, with your career, because the last couple of seasons you've been

00:43:50.980 out with an injury, right? So it's, it's interesting because I don't want to put words in your mouth at

00:43:58.800 all, of course, but I imagine that if you had injuries, maybe your rookie year, it would have

00:44:04.980 been harder for you because you did wrap up your identity and being a basketball player. But what's that

00:44:09.340 like now where you can't play, but you also have this faith where that you've wrapped up your

00:44:13.840 identity in is, has that been easier to manage injuries and these sorts of things? Or how does

00:44:19.820 that, how does that look? It's definitely been easier to manage injuries. You know, at, at the end

00:44:25.240 of the day, I believe that God has a plan for my life. And so when, when negative things do happen,

00:44:29.780 um, I do have hope and I do have somewhere to run to, um, to find faith and find encouragement.

00:44:34.960 Um, I have, you know, in my opinion, the right people around me that were able to help walk me

00:44:39.480 through my ACL injury. And so, um, they were able to keep me uplifted and, and, and just keep me

00:44:44.580 encouraged. And even throughout the process of writing the book, I wouldn't have been able to

00:44:48.920 write the book if I didn't get injured. And so, um, a part of that was like, I still feel like God is

00:44:54.480 doing something with me and in my life so I can be a light and an encouragement to other people

00:44:59.000 outside of the court. Yes. I love basketball. Yes. I want to get back. And I'm so excited for

00:45:03.580 this upcoming season, but I found purpose and destiny in, um, you know, living for him and,

00:45:09.180 and, and writing the book and hearing how people are inspired by it. It wouldn't have come to pass

00:45:13.440 if, if I didn't get injured. So a lot of times we see things that, you know, kind of this face on

00:45:18.420 level, but God sees it from a bird's eye view, um, and can see the end from the beginning and he knows

00:45:23.260 why. And, and even being able to identify with other players that get injured. Um, it wasn't something

00:45:28.280 that I would have been able to do, um, you know, in my, in my earlier years. And now when I see a guy

00:45:32.560 go down, I have a different respect. I have a different, um, you know, empathy and heart before

00:45:38.680 him where I can, I can talk to him in a way that somebody else who hasn't gone through a major injury

00:45:42.680 can't. Um, and so, uh, yeah. Has there ever been a moment, whether it's through your injury or any other

00:45:49.140 factor in life where you've thought to yourself, Hey God, like I have this plan and your plan

00:45:58.140 is not aligning with my plan here. A hundred percent. I'm not going to sit here and say,

00:46:03.000 I was not frustrated. I wasn't angry. I cried my eyes out. Um, when I found out that it was my ACL,

00:46:08.360 I was angry. Um, but you, you, you, you got to go back to God and ultimately he has the answer for

00:46:15.520 it. And so, um, yeah, it w it was tough. I had my plan. I was having my best season that I had so far.

00:46:21.240 Um, you know, I was, I was leading the league in blocks. Um, and so, um, I was having, I was having

00:46:26.600 a great year and it was going to be my, you know, my, my contract extension year. And I ended up

00:46:30.880 tearing my ACL. So, um, but again, being able to take, take a step back and say, God, what, what,

00:46:36.300 what do you have? What is going on? And then to, to, to have this process of writing a book and seeing,

00:46:41.640 you know, where I, where I came from and being able to put it on paper to where I am now. I'm like,

00:46:45.660 I can understand why this book needed to happen. Do you have fears that with all the good that's

00:46:51.700 been happening with you being sidelined because of that injury with the book and seeing things from

00:46:57.200 a different perspective and having empathy that getting back into the game is going to,

00:47:04.540 I don't want to say mess with that or keep you or get you distracted or keep you from what's really

00:47:12.500 important. No, I would say, I know that my purpose, um, you know, a part of my purpose is

00:47:20.540 a, is being a basketball player. And, and that's where I have, you know, honestly, my, my, a large

00:47:25.840 sphere of influence. Um, and I believe that I can do it in a way that honors and glorifies God. And I

00:47:31.400 do believe that that's his plan for me. I don't, I don't, we don't necessarily know, but at the end of

00:47:35.860 the day, that's, that's what, that's, that's what I do believe. So like coming back to the court,

00:47:39.340 um, I don't necessarily see it as, um, you know, something that's distracting me from what I've

00:47:44.540 been doing. I feel like I'm, I'm walking in my purpose. And I took this detour, um, for the

00:47:48.860 purpose of getting this book out and, and, and, and seeing that life at the end of the day is bigger

00:47:53.100 than basketball and God is bigger than basketball. But, um, I do believe that basketball is a part

00:47:57.040 of God's plan for me. That's interesting. Cause I, I know there, you know, you, you always hear

00:48:01.700 people, Oh, these guys, you know, they're complaining and they're making millions of dollars and

00:48:05.600 they're just playing a game, you know, and they write it off, but it sounds like you take it pretty

00:48:09.960 seriously, clearly. Uh, and it's a, it's an integral part of your path with God.

00:48:16.600 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I definitely take it seriously. And, and, and, and guys do too. I can

00:48:20.500 understand, I can understand some, some people's mindset in terms of, you know, we probably shouldn't

00:48:25.700 complain about the little things. And I, I, I'd be, I wouldn't complain about the little things too,

00:48:30.220 because of how, you know, how great our game is and how big it is and how well we're compensated.

00:48:34.920 But, um, you know, guys absolutely do take it serious and, and, and definitely me, you know,

00:48:39.640 in believing that it's an integral part of my, you know, my purpose.

00:48:43.520 How, how did you begin to overcome some of the, the fears and insecurities that you had? Um,

00:48:49.940 you know, I, I know you, you, you said, Hey, I, I, I know that our creator loves me for who I am.

00:48:55.780 And so there's that acceptance, but are there some tactical things that you've done where you've

00:49:00.260 begun to feel more assured and more confident in yourself? So you're not so wrapped up in trying

00:49:06.740 to impress others or win their approval. Yeah. Face them face, face, face the fears. Um,

00:49:13.180 little by little when I, uh, this is interesting. Um, it's, it's a dope part of the story too,

00:49:18.580 about two months into me really giving my life to Christ. Um, our pastor had called for me to preach.

00:49:28.180 So this is like a, a Sunday service, me getting up in front of people and preaching the same kid who

00:49:34.320 was, you know, passing out at Florida state because he was so anxious, but now it was like,

00:49:39.420 I believe that God is with me. I believe that God has called me to do this. And I can do this,

00:49:44.620 even though I was so terrified, I was so afraid. He, uh, so he asked me to do it. And then he was

00:49:50.480 like, I think you should invite your teammates. And I was like, you're insane. There's no,

00:49:55.240 I'm not doing that. There's no way I'm doing that. Absolutely not. Hang it up. He said,

00:50:00.240 only give me your answer after you really pray about it. And I was like, Oh,

00:50:05.560 why'd you have to say that to me? And so, and so I prayed about it and said, you know what?

00:50:11.180 It's the right thing to do. And so this same guy who was at the club with them a few months ago

00:50:16.800 is now going to them saying, Hey, I'm going to be preaching this upcoming Sunday. I think you should

00:50:21.400 come. So, um, yeah, so, so it was these little moments of facing my fear and, and, and, and being

00:50:29.800 able to trust God and, um, knowing that he was with me. And then after you did what you were so afraid

00:50:36.580 to do and you look around and you're still alive and you're still here and it's like, Oh, wow. I,

00:50:42.480 I, I did it. I did it. And thank God that I did it. And then it was the next thing and the next thing

00:50:46.960 and the next thing of these little incremental moments of, of, of facing my fear with God on my

00:50:52.160 side, um, to where I was like, I can do this. I can, I can fight my fear. I don't have to be afraid,

00:50:59.080 um, because God is with me. And so all of those little things led up to the moment of being able to

00:51:04.980 stand this, the stand wasn't just some, I mustered the courage out of nowhere. It was absolutely built

00:51:10.020 up over time. Um, and, and I do believe that that was in God's plan as well.

00:51:14.720 Have you had any sort of encounters with teammates or other people from, from your life who

00:51:20.380 are critical, openly critical about your, your path and the way that you went, um, specifically as

00:51:28.340 it relates to your spirituality. And then how do you deal with that as you have criticism and people

00:51:34.120 like, Oh, you know, I knew you when kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I I've definitely

00:51:39.400 gotten a couple of those, like, man, we was, we was doing that where you wasn't all Christian

00:51:43.120 then. Right. Right. But I've definitely had a couple of those, but you know, people change

00:51:47.620 and people grow in and, and what I've tried my best to do is go about my life as authentically

00:51:54.160 and as humbly as I can. And so what I, what I tell a lot of young people is I think about it

00:51:59.300 like Instagram. Um, Instagram is supposed to be a snapshot of your life, you know, your interest,

00:52:05.020 what you're into, all those different things. Um, for me, I would not be authentic to myself.

00:52:10.920 If Christ wasn't a part of my everyday life, a part of my basketball, you know, journey and all

00:52:16.660 this, I wouldn't be authentic to myself because he is. And so, um, I respect everyone's authentic

00:52:23.040 self and I just ask for that same respect in return. So that's honestly is a lot of my responses

00:52:27.880 to those things where it's like, I can understand if you don't agree with me, I can understand if

00:52:31.900 you feel like, um, Christianity has no part in basketball or Christianity has no, you know,

00:52:37.600 I'm a basketball player, so I should never tweet about Christ. I should just tweet about basketball.

00:52:41.700 Um, yeah, that's it. I, I never, even with the political opinion and things like that, where it's

00:52:48.860 like, you know, just dribble that kind of stuff. I'm like, I never understood that because I know that

00:52:53.580 there's, I have a lane and I deviate from the lane and I have opinions about other things that I'd

00:52:58.280 like to talk about occasionally. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so, um, so yeah, so I just, I just

00:53:04.060 try to try to just do me just stay in my lane and be authentically authentic to myself. Um, and you

00:53:10.780 know, yeah, there's a scripture. I, I, I don't know if it's exactly right. I think it's a Romans maybe

00:53:17.060 one 16 and I, and I'm paraphrasing, but I think it talks about not being ashamed of the gospel of

00:53:22.780 Christ. No. And, uh, that's something I've been pondering on, you know, because I don't really

00:53:29.800 talk about my faith very much or haven't on the podcast and through the movement. And I did that

00:53:33.860 by design originally, because I thought that we would, uh, be able to reach more people with,

00:53:38.980 with a, with a message that wasn't, uh, that didn't have that, that messaging in it as a, as an

00:53:43.700 underlying foundation. And I've wondered like, is that really what I did or am I ashamed of maybe not

00:53:50.620 even a shame, but maybe I didn't even know what I believed. And so I didn't quite know how to share

00:53:55.920 it or articulate it. I hope that makes sense. You know, it definitely makes sense. I think that

00:54:01.440 it's, it doesn't, it doesn't make you a bad person and not necessarily that you're doing

00:54:05.100 anything wrong. Um, but at the end of the day, it's where it's, it's where God is coming from in

00:54:10.400 that verse where it's like, if how I think about it is people need help. Like the, the people who you

00:54:16.840 would never think need your help with the people who you think aren't listening or would just brush

00:54:20.740 it off. Like people need help, especially in today's day people, um, you know, obviously with

00:54:26.500 everything that's going on in the world, but a lot of people are just lost. They have no foundational

00:54:31.160 ethos or, um, uh, you know, moral compass about the way to live life. Um, and they're drowning in,

00:54:36.980 you know, what the world has to offer. And so, um, I, I think that not even so much as a commandment to,

00:54:43.160 to share about your faith and share about the things that God has done in your life,

00:54:47.060 but just out of a necessity for the people that are listening to you. Um, they need it. Um, they

00:54:52.480 absolutely need it. And so, um, I think that there's obviously a balance and a way to go about

00:54:56.640 it. That is, uh, that's wise. Um, but I would encourage you to, you know, as you continue to,

00:55:02.200 you know, grow your podcast, I know it's at a great place right now, but continue to give people,

00:55:06.160 you know, your authentic self and you, and, you know, you are a believer and you're continuing to go

00:55:10.140 down that journey. You can't be authentic to yourself without it. Well said. I mean, that's,

00:55:15.480 that's a hundred percent true and something I've been experiencing and thinking about for myself,

00:55:19.860 man, I got to tell you, I really appreciate your courage and your, your ability to stand by your

00:55:24.420 convictions, not just in the things that you say, but the things that you do and how you live your

00:55:27.740 life. Like it's, it's very, um, it's very inspiring, you know, for me, you know, I see what

00:55:33.960 you're doing. I'm like, man, that's inspiring. Like I want, I want to live like that. I want to be

00:55:37.420 somebody who has conviction and then I want to be able to stand by it and, and put it all on the

00:55:42.940 line for those convictions. That's very powerful. Well, look, I give God the glory again. Like I'm,

00:55:48.760 I'm, I'm not the guy who could stand up here and say, Oh yeah, that's just me. I know I, I, I did

00:55:54.700 all this. I'm just this courageous guy who pulled out of anywhere. I can't give it to anybody else,

00:55:59.560 but the people who have come along my journey, like I said, doc and all those other people who were

00:56:03.200 there to minister to me in my weakness and saw me weak and still loved me in the same way that God

00:56:08.180 does for me and does for everybody. Um, I, I wouldn't be where I am today or the man I am today

00:56:13.000 without it. So I appreciate that. Is doc still your pastor or do you have a new pastor? Yeah.

00:56:17.760 Yeah. Uh, so I, you know, he, he ordained me and I speak from time to time in our church,

00:56:23.140 not too much. Um, but yeah, he's definitely still my pastor, my mentor, like just, um, you know,

00:56:28.160 we're still going strong. That's awesome. What, um, I, I was trying to wrap it up there,

00:56:33.580 but I, but I had another question is, is this came up, you're talking about your, your weaknesses

00:56:37.780 and things you're working on. Are there things that in your life that you're currently working

00:56:42.000 on that you feel are weaknesses that you would like to shore up and you're actively working to

00:56:45.860 improve? Oh yeah. It's man, the, the enemy is relentless, but in a sense that, um, you know,

00:56:55.240 we're, we're always growing and we never really get past, um, you know, anything, not, not saying

00:57:00.920 that you don't grow out of stuff, but, uh, it's, it's the same things over and over again. Like I'll,

00:57:05.680 I'll always have to fight fear. Um, because you know, I, I know what to say to myself to make me

00:57:12.280 afraid. Even I, I know, I know where to go on my own head to be. And so it's like, um, I always

00:57:18.980 continually have to fight that with what I know and what I believe. So what I've learned is,

00:57:25.000 it's, it's, it's not that I've defeated fear. It's that I've learned how to fight it. And so

00:57:29.920 the, the verses that are in the Bible, the one that says the righteous are as bold as lions and

00:57:34.320 God has not given me a spirit of fear. And he's with me. Those are the things that I recite to

00:57:38.440 myself before games, you know, as I'm, as I'm going into another speaking engagement or something like

00:57:43.020 this, what I say to myself before I get on a pat a podcast with Ryan, um, that, that is, that that's

00:57:49.240 how I fight my fear because it's always there. It's always going to be something that rears

00:57:52.840 this ugly head, but I've learned how to fight it. And so I think that that's something that

00:57:56.620 I'm still fighting on a daily basis. Um, I've definitely covered a lot of ground, but I still

00:58:00.380 got a lot of ground to cover. Um, yeah. And then just, and then just growing as a, as, as a married

00:58:05.840 man, as a husband, something, uh, are you, are you married? I am. Yeah. Yeah. I was about to say

00:58:12.200 I'm, I'm, I'm on year one. And so, um, it's a good place to be. It's a beautiful time.

00:58:16.600 Yeah. Thank you, man. But, um, but yeah, just, just, just trying to grow every day. And, and,

00:58:21.160 and that's something that, um, it's obviously something that needs a lot of attention and,

00:58:24.840 and, and, and makes you a better person forces you to become a better person or it all goes to

00:58:29.720 rubbish. And so, uh, yeah. Awesome. Well, how do the guys connect with you? Obviously they can pick

00:58:35.540 up a copy of the book wherever they want to get books, but how do they connect with you and learn

00:58:38.820 more about what you're doing or follow your career and, and learn more about what you're up to?

00:58:43.000 Yeah. You can check me out on Instagram, uh, Twitter, you know, Jonathan Isaac. Uh, I think

00:58:48.320 my, my Instagram handle is John Isaac underscore zero one. Um, I encourage everyone to really go

00:58:53.420 grab a book. I think the best place to do it is Amazon. Why I stand on Amazon. And like you said,

00:58:58.160 wherever books are, are at and, uh, uh, yeah, connect with me and I'm, I'm so grateful to be on your

00:59:02.800 podcast, man. And hopefully we can stay in touch. Yeah. I hope so too. I really appreciate you. I'm glad

00:59:07.120 you joined us. I know a lot of guys are going to get some value from this. So thanks for coming on,

00:59:10.420 man. Yes, sir. Thank you so much.

00:59:13.660 Man, there you go. My conversation with the one and only Jonathan Isaac, what a powerful man.

00:59:18.340 And what a powerful conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. I hope you took notes.

00:59:22.680 If you weren't in the position to take notes, maybe go back if you need to and, and jot some

00:59:26.860 notes down. Uh, I, I have just been blown away with the guests that we've had over the past three

00:59:30.860 to four weeks. I mean, we've always had great guests, but there's just something different and

00:59:34.560 special about the guests that we've had on, uh, over the past month. And I hope that you felt that too.

00:59:39.660 And I hope that it serves you in some way. That's really what we want to do is we want

00:59:45.960 to serve you as a husband, a father, uh, a leader in your community, an owner of your business and

00:59:51.420 employee, whatever facet of life you're showing up in. We want to give you the tools that you need

00:59:55.400 to thrive and succeed. So to that end, make sure you subscribe, uh, leave your rating and review

01:00:01.120 that goes a long way in promoting what we're doing here. And as I say, every week, just take a

01:00:05.140 screenshot real quick and post it up on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, uh, tag myself, tag Jonathan,

01:00:11.200 uh, pick up a copy of his book, why I stand check out origin USA and their denim. And then the last

01:00:17.220 thing that I wanted to share with you is again, the iron council is opening back up, uh, later this

01:00:22.040 month. So you can go to order of man.com slash iron council. Those gentlemen are your marching

01:00:27.160 orders. We will be back tomorrow for our asking anything until then go out there, take action

01:00:32.820 and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:00:38.060 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:00:42.120 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:00:52.040 We'll be right back.

Order of Man - September 06, 2022

JONATHAN ISAAC ｜ Becoming Bold as Lions

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