Order of Man - JOSHUA BECKER ｜ Enough is Enough： How Owning Less Gives You More

00:00:00.000 Most men don't realize how much of our anxiety and distraction and frustration is tied to what

00:00:07.640 we own. And I guess more importantly or accurately, what owns us? Because we live in a culture that

00:00:14.340 constantly tells us to want more, to buy more, to accumulate more, and peace and clarity and

00:00:21.300 even contentment in your life just feel further away than ever. Today's conversation is about

00:00:27.200 pushing back against that narrative and the noise and asking a more honest, maybe tougher

00:00:32.900 question. When is enough enough? My guest today is Joshua Becker. He's the author of Uncluttered

00:00:38.140 Faith, Own Less, Love More, and Make an Impact in Your World. And Joshua challenges the idea

00:00:43.640 that minimalism is lifeless or empty and reframes it into an intentional act of being a steward

00:00:52.480 over your resources, being generous, living on purpose. We talk about consumerism and greed

00:00:58.420 and anxiety and also the hidden cost of everything that we own and how living with less can actually

00:01:05.180 free us to be more deeply involved with the people that we care about, live with better

00:01:10.620 clarity in our lives, invest in what actually matters. And this is a conversation about discipline

00:01:16.140 and contentment and creating a life that serves your mission, not just what you own your possessions.

00:01:22.680 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your

00:01:27.880 own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily

00:01:33.860 deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you

00:01:41.420 will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:48.380 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. I am Ryan Michler. I'm the host and the founder,

00:01:52.500 and we are coming up very, very quickly on 11 years of this movement to reclaim and restore

00:01:57.840 masculinity. And I believe that we are making a huge, huge difference in the world in large part to

00:02:03.380 our incredible guests who come on and impart their wisdom with us, and also in large part to you,

00:02:08.360 going out and taking what you learn from the guests, taking our systems and tools that we've been

00:02:13.040 developing and building for years and applying them in your life. So just want to thank you for being

00:02:18.240 part of the mission and very glad to have led this and the fact that we're going strong. Now, speaking of

00:02:24.940 tools, I also want to mention my good friends over at Montana Knife Company. They had a busy couple of

00:02:29.900 weeks, longer than that, I'm sure, but just moved into their new facility in Montana, and they are making

00:02:36.080 100% made in America knives. And I believe that every good man ought to have himself a good knife

00:02:43.800 for whatever purpose. You know, you never know when you need to cut a zip tie or cut a piece of meat or

00:02:50.580 pick something out of your teeth or break an animal down or defend yourself. There's literally an infinite

00:02:58.700 number of uses for having a good knife, and I can't think of a better place than Montana Knife Company.

00:03:03.580 So if you head over there and pick one up or any of their gear, they've got a lot of really cool

00:03:07.820 winter gear coming online right now. Check it out at montananifecompany.com and use the code

00:03:13.880 orderofman. Again, montananifecompany.com. Use the code orderofman at checkout. All right, guys,

00:03:20.660 let me introduce you to my guest. Again, Joshua Becker. He's an author. He's a speaker. He's also one of

00:03:25.980 the leading voices in this modern minimalism movement. He's the founder of Becoming Minimalist,

00:03:32.120 which is a community that inspires, at this point, millions of readers each month to live with

00:03:38.160 intention by owning fewer things. He's a Wall Street Journal and a USA Today bestselling author.

00:03:45.520 He's written several books, including The More of Less, The Minimalist Home, Things That Matter,

00:03:51.740 and his work has been featured in major outlets and publications as he speaks about how to simplify

00:03:57.460 life and lead yourself to greater freedom, purpose, and joy. His latest book is called Uncluttered Faith,

00:04:04.400 Own Less, Love More, and Make an Impact in Your World. And rather than just treating minimalism as a

00:04:09.920 trend or an aesthetic, he really presents it as a practice that helps men prioritize their people over

00:04:17.140 their possessions, reduce the distraction and noise in their life, and step into a greater life of

00:04:23.040 impact. Enjoy this one, man. Joshua, so good to see you after eight years. We just looked it up

00:04:30.820 before we hit record. It's been eight years since you joined the podcast last time, and I'm so glad

00:04:34.660 to have you back, man. Well, on the bright side, nothing has changed in the world over the last eight

00:04:39.160 years. Not a thing. It's all the same. Everybody's happy. Life is peaceful, and nobody's upset with each

00:04:46.060 other. So it's pretty good. What a crazy decade. What a crazy decade. Thanks for having me on. I love it.

00:04:51.580 Of course. Yeah, of course. I've been looking forward to it. And, you know, I wrestle with this

00:04:56.300 line of minimalism versus having all the things. But, you know, and maybe it's just part of my nature,

00:05:07.440 but I really do believe, and you talk about this often, that consumerism is at the root of

00:05:17.360 societal misery. And maybe that's overstating it. And I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, but

00:05:23.680 I really believe that's the case. I'd love to hear what you think about it.

00:05:27.700 Yeah. It's certainly the cause of a lot of issues. I don't know if it's the root of all the evil in

00:05:35.360 the world. I tend to have an assumption that there's unhealthy motivations inside each of us and

00:05:42.840 unhealthy attitudes. And then one of the ways I think that can play out is in consumerism and in

00:05:50.780 the accumulation of material goods and physical goods. And I mean, we can go into detail. What

00:05:57.380 does that, you know, where does that stem from? You know, jealousy and greed and selfishness and

00:06:02.700 trying to prove our worth and value and success. And so I think a lot of inner heart motivations

00:06:09.860 tend to result in consumerism, but it certainly collides with a world that is constantly pushing

00:06:17.240 consumerism on us as the way to solve a lot of those issues. Yeah, it is interesting because I'm

00:06:24.020 often led to believe and I don't embrace this idea that, well, that's not true. I embrace some of it

00:06:29.540 some of the time that the latest gadget and gizmo or tool or hack or fix or product or medicine or

00:06:38.660 GLP three or one, like what, like whatever's next. It's like, Oh, that that's the thing that's going

00:06:44.600 to solve my, the problems that I've been wrestling with for 40 plus years of my life. And it's crazy

00:06:52.020 that we buy into that. Yeah. Uh, certainly I think they are marketed to us that way. We see 5,000

00:07:00.620 advertisements every single day. And when you, when you think about it, every ad, every advertisement

00:07:07.420 at its core is telling you that your life will be better if you buy whatever they're selling. Like

00:07:14.640 this is the message of every advertisement. Your life will be healthier, happier, more efficient,

00:07:20.840 more comfortable, more luxurious, whatever it might be. Uh, this is the message. And we hear it all the

00:07:27.040 time. We hear it from people who are really good at it. We add in the social algorithms and AI and the

00:07:35.320 internet and how much they know about us. And they know when to reach us and what to reach us with

00:07:40.760 and what messages reach us with. And I think it becomes harder and harder to, um, withstand the,

00:07:47.300 um, messaging that we hear constantly. And in a world that has generally accepted it, like

00:07:52.480 in a culture and a society that's running down that direction, thinking it's going to bring them

00:07:56.700 happiness and joy. And so it's all around us. Yeah, I, well, and to be fair, that's you too.

00:08:05.200 And that's me too, right? You've got books and I've got courses and I've got events and I've got

00:08:09.620 programs. Like we're, we're doing the same thing. So I don't, I don't know if I'm part of the solution

00:08:15.160 or part of the problem, if I'm being honest. Yeah. Well, I think it depends on what you are

00:08:22.700 trying to offer people, uh, how you're trying to help people, how you're trying to serve people.

00:08:28.960 Um, there's, we all need clothes. We all need a vehicle. Like we need medicine. We need those

00:08:36.920 certain things. So there are times when what we're offering to people and how we're serving people

00:08:43.360 does help them and does, um, bring benefit into their life. But there's other times where

00:08:49.580 we're just manufacturing a problem. We're manufacturing a need, something that I didn't

00:08:57.700 even know was an issue until this commercial tells me that it is, or this advertisement tells me that

00:09:04.240 it is. And, um, you know, I think a lot of it comes down to what our motivation is in selling and

00:09:10.480 offering and trying to help. Yeah. And that's what, that's the word I wrote down when you were talking

00:09:15.740 about it is the motive. You know, the motive is important. Is it, I'm just trying to make a buck

00:09:19.340 and squeeze every penny out of everybody I can talk with. And, and here's one way I know that you

00:09:24.900 can know that about yourself is if you can tell a potential customer, we're not a fit for you.

00:09:32.380 If you've never said that, then I would question your motives because the reality is, is you're not

00:09:38.200 going to be a fit for everybody. Yeah, true. And it's, and I think you can feel it in your

00:09:43.820 conscience. I would hope, like, I, I hope you can feel it in your heart a little bit and in your

00:09:50.600 mind. And when you lay in bed at night that, Hey, I'm, I'm doing what I'm doing for the sake of

00:09:58.880 serving others and helping others and trying to bring what I do well as a service to you,

00:10:05.920 as opposed to, I'm just trying to get as much as I possibly can for myself out of this interaction

00:10:12.220 and out of this transaction. But this is good. You're, uh, this is gonna be awesome. Thanks for

00:10:19.560 this conversation. Let's keep going. Yeah, no, I mean, I'm excited about it and I, I'm not one to

00:10:24.520 just like, you know, make sure that we just have a seamless conversation. Like there's things that

00:10:28.440 I'm curious about and things I agree and things I don't agree necessarily on. And that, I think

00:10:32.280 that's the power of what we do here is like, let's have honest discussion. But one of the things that

00:10:37.300 you were talking about is the algorithm, the algorithm is crazy. Um, the other day I was

00:10:41.780 on social media, doom scrolling, as I often get sucked into speaking of the antithesis to minimalism.

00:10:49.180 Um, and it was like bringing me reels that I didn't even know that I wanted, but I did want them.

00:10:58.280 And then I, I remember thinking, Whoa, how does this know that I, that I want this information,

00:11:06.240 whether it serves me or not as a different story, but that I want this information. And the only

00:11:11.400 thought that came to mind, cause I don't engage in a lot of those reels, but I, I imagine it probably

00:11:16.160 takes into consideration the amount of time you spend watching a particular reel.

00:11:21.340 And, and the more you spend on one reel, it's like, okay, he spent a minute on that reel,

00:11:27.900 but only three seconds on the other one. So this one must be important. I don't know for sure,

00:11:32.780 but it is amazing how good these engineers are in creating algorithms to keep our attention.

00:11:44.600 Yeah. Yeah. And your entire browsing history and, um, man, I, I'm, I'm nervous, uh, about saying this

00:11:53.060 cause I can't cite, I can't cite the source, but, um, one of the companies was getting in trouble

00:11:59.100 because, um, if, uh, if a teenager like took a selfie and then deleted it, they were getting

00:12:08.720 delivered, um, content about self-esteem or body image. So like it was even going much richer and

00:12:17.320 much deeper than how long do I spend time on a video? Although it knows how long you do that and

00:12:23.200 how long you stay on a post, but even your other interactions and how you, how you feel in the moment

00:12:29.700 when you, when you log in and what is going to, uh, what's going to feed you at the time.

00:12:33.860 Man, it is so, it is so wild. And I, and I think, you know, one of the chapters,

00:12:39.000 Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. And, and I was going to say like, like, this is really different from when,

00:12:44.260 I don't know your age, but like very different from when, from when I was a kid, like Saturday

00:12:49.040 morning cartoons, I'm getting, you know, toys and cereal commercials and it's just blasting it to

00:12:56.860 everybody. And now it knows when I go to the grocery store and how often I buy this cereal and

00:13:03.700 what toys tripped me up the most and what my spending limit is and how much I have at any

00:13:07.760 given time. And so the, just the way that it's able to dialed in on in there and everything's

00:13:14.700 AB split tested and this works better and that doesn't work better. And it's deep and rich and

00:13:20.860 there's a lot of money in the world and a lot of people trying to get it. Um, and it's important for

00:13:26.080 us to be intentional and careful with how we spend ours for sure. I, you know, I remember when I was a

00:13:31.240 kid, it was like, I don't, I don't know if how old you are either, but it was, I remember the thing

00:13:37.000 after these messages, we'll be right back. So like if anybody's 40 to 50 years old, they probably know

00:13:41.760 that little skit after these messages. And it was like the cartoons that flip their heads around or

00:13:46.280 something, if I remember right. And the other one that I remember is the biggest draw from my

00:13:51.300 attention at school in particular was when we had this, I can't remember what it was, but it was

00:13:56.440 like scholastic subscription or something. And the teacher would hand out these little newspaper

00:14:01.300 things and you'd circle the books that you wanted to buy. And then the day they came,

00:14:05.080 everybody's excited. Cause you've got the books that you wanted. That was like the highlight of

00:14:08.920 our, of our week or our month is when those books came in that we ordered. And that was like the bid

00:14:13.460 for my attention. Yep. The scholastic book fair. And then, and then that grew up and became the

00:14:18.800 like BMG CD music subscription thing where you get like 11 CDs for a dollar or something.

00:14:27.520 That's right. I forgot about that all the time. Yeah. Yeah. How do you, okay. So look, we're all,

00:14:34.220 we're all consumers, right? There's, there's no getting around it. You're wearing clothes. You've

00:14:37.860 got a picture behind you. I'm wearing clothes. I've got technology here. I'm a consumer,

00:14:41.400 but how do you filter what you ought to buy and what you ought not to buy, um, or consume,

00:14:49.480 even if it's just, uh, binge watching the latest series of whatever show on Netflix?

00:14:55.440 Yeah. Uh, well to live is to consume. So you're right. Like we're all consuming food and shelter and

00:15:01.480 energy and, um, no way around that. And I, for the life of me, I've been doing this for 17 years and I

00:15:10.340 don't have the, these are the three questions that you ask to always get to the right answer every

00:15:15.340 single time. I wish, I wish I had that. Um, but for me, like I, for me, it's, it's really theoretical

00:15:24.020 and it's, it's really deep and it's really important. And it is, what is my purpose in life?

00:15:34.420 Like, what are my goals in life? Who do I want to be? What do I want to accomplish? What is going

00:15:41.880 to bring me the most meaning and fulfillment and significance and joy in life? And then what do I

00:15:49.120 need to own in order to do more of that? And then what are the distractions that I need to remove that

00:15:57.320 are keeping me from it? And I know that's not clean and tidy and that changes over time. And

00:16:04.340 we have to experiment with different things to figure out what that's going to mean and what

00:16:09.120 that looks like on a practical way. And we get off course and we need to reevaluate and reassess. But

00:16:14.860 for me, that's, that's what it comes down to. And I don't know a lot of people who want to argue

00:16:20.380 with that. And they're like, no, no, we should, we should waste our lives on heedless luxury and no good

00:16:26.400 activity. And no, like, like we should live for our purpose. We should avoid distraction. We got

00:16:32.940 to figure out what distracts us over and over again. And then every single day we need to

00:16:37.120 reassess and stay focused on what matters most. I like that. I was writing those questions. No,

00:16:43.980 I agree. I wrote those questions down. I think the one, I mean, they're all important questions,

00:16:49.420 but I think if you get to the root of your purpose in life and the most important question then becomes,

00:16:53.700 what do I might even say it this way? Do I need to consume this, whether it's to watch it,

00:17:00.740 read it, et cetera, or buy it in order to move me closer towards my purpose in life?

00:17:07.580 And if the answer's yes, then you can make a reasonable case to, to consume. If the answer

00:17:14.300 is no, then you really ought to second. And look, I'm not, okay. So I pulled up a quote and I want to

00:17:19.420 hear what you think about this quote. So this is from a friend of mine, his name's Kyle Creek,

00:17:24.680 and he wrote this. And I, and I know, because I've done some research that you used to have a very

00:17:29.940 similar, um, a very parallel idea of, of this idea of minimalism, but this is what he says, quote,

00:17:38.240 minimalism is so effing weird to me. I want a home that feels like a buffet of memories,

00:17:44.500 inspiration and artifacts from prior versions of my life. What do you think about that?

00:17:53.680 What I think to myself, when I hear that is, if I were to even go back to your previous question

00:18:01.920 and why it's not an easy answer, uh, certainly there are some things from my past that helped me

00:18:10.600 become the version of myself that I want to be in the future. Um, certainly there's space for art,

00:18:17.580 there's space for music, there's space for watching television and enjoying yourself, right? Like,

00:18:22.720 like those can be, uh, restful times that help us become, uh, who we want to be and who we need to be

00:18:28.220 in the future. What occurs to me with that quote is I agree that there are some things from my past,

00:18:36.080 but I don't, I'm not moving in that direction. I'm really thankful for my past, but I need to live

00:18:45.360 for the present and I need to live for the future. And so if all of those things, the buffet of memories

00:18:53.040 in your home are helping you become the best version of yourself that you can be in the future,

00:18:58.140 then go for it. But if I've collected so much and I'm holding onto so much that it's actually

00:19:05.580 burdening me and keeping me from fully embracing the future, then I think that's when it becomes a

00:19:12.740 problem. I think that's when minimizing some of those things benefits us and benefits everyone around

00:19:18.720 us. I think that's, I think that's fair. Is this burdening me? Like I, I remember early in my,

00:19:25.920 my career with, with order of man where there were people that I, that I admired and respected

00:19:34.720 and followed that it just created anxiety for me. You know, I, I saw what they were doing and I

00:19:40.900 compared myself to them and you talk a lot about comparison. I believe in, in, in your new book,

00:19:46.000 which is called uncluttered faith, but I compared myself to them and I, I ranked myself according to

00:19:54.440 my growth relative to their growth. And what I realized is that although I was inspired by these

00:20:00.020 individuals, it became a burden. It became an emotional and mental burden. And I just unfollowed

00:20:05.660 all of the people, even though I liked them like no ill will. I didn't hate what they had to say.

00:20:10.300 I actually really loved what they had to say, but I unburdened myself from that because it was

00:20:16.980 hindering, it was not, it was no longer inspiring to me. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think you're right on. And

00:20:24.840 I think sometimes it, it takes time to realize that, you know, um, sometimes we think we're

00:20:32.120 following someone and we do, we do learn from them and they do inspire us and we learn life lessons

00:20:36.980 from them. And then you're like, yeah, you know what? They're, I'm actually spending a lot of time

00:20:42.040 being more jealous and envious than I should be or they're, um, or following them is causing me to

00:20:49.660 become a version of myself that I, I don't want to be, and I don't feel at peace with. And I don't

00:20:55.140 think is moving me towards my purpose, but it's keeping me from it. Yeah. Do you, do you offer or

00:21:02.140 suggest any sort of, um, practices or insights for auditing aspects of your life, whether, you know,

00:21:10.140 it's your bedroom or your living room or your car or what's on my phone's over there, but what's on

00:21:17.100 your, your dang phone, like how many apps you have on your phone? Like, how do you begin to audit some

00:21:20.860 of that and say, okay, like this has got to go, this can stay, this goes, this stays, this goes,

00:21:25.820 this stays, et cetera. Yeah. Um, let me offer two, let me offer one quick thought and then I'll get to

00:21:33.540 your specific answer. Um, I think, uh, relating to our previous conversation about like purpose

00:21:39.800 and what's helping me get there and what's keeping me from that. I think that the way we audit that

00:21:46.020 is through solitude and through time alone with ourselves in quietness. And so we can talk about

00:21:53.780 that in a moment. Um, but if you want to, but in terms of like, what are the physical things in my

00:22:00.320 home? What are the apps on my phone? Like how many clothes in my closet? Like, how do I analyze that

00:22:07.640 and evaluate that? The way we do it is we experiment with owning less. Um, what is the

00:22:20.660 right amount of clothing for me to have in my closet? Well, I, I don't know, but there is a

00:22:27.240 number like there is the, the right amount of clothes in my closet. So what is it? Well, how do I get there?

00:22:34.060 I start with the assumption that I have too much that I've been told what a closet is supposed to

00:22:40.780 look like. I bought what everyone else was buying, the changing fashions and the colors. And like,

00:22:45.780 I've got too much stuff. And so let me experiment with try taking half the things out of your closet

00:22:53.360 for a month and see if your life functions more efficiently. See if you like owning less stuff.

00:23:00.620 If it does, then you've just learned a pretty valuable lesson. The things on your phone. Well,

00:23:06.560 what apps do make me, uh, do bring joy into my life? Like do bring value to me and do help serve

00:23:13.760 a purpose? Well, try getting rid of a bunch for a whole long time. Like I went a month, a couple of

00:23:18.920 years ago, I went a month and I used my phone just for phone and texting. I like purposefully no maps,

00:23:26.380 no photos, no credit cards, no anything like just what does my life look like? If I am, I not

00:23:33.660 distracted by any of these things. And you spend the month and you come back and you're like, you know

00:23:38.540 what? There were some good things on my phone that I missed that would help me. But man, there was a

00:23:43.420 whole lot of stuff that was just keeping me from life and keeping me from my family and keeping me

00:23:48.320 from work. And so you just bring back the good and, uh, keep away the, um, distracting.

00:23:55.680 I like the process of experimentation. Cause I think there's a lot of people who are just

00:23:59.560 overthinkers where they'll look at something, they'll look at their closet and like, well,

00:24:02.980 I might need that one thing for that one event, that one year that I don't know what's going to

00:24:07.320 happen in the future. And so we get into these, like these mental and emotional battles rather than

00:24:14.080 just taking action, like box it up, put it in the garage for a month. I like that idea.

00:24:17.580 Have you heard of, um, do you know who Chad Wright is or Andy Stumpf? Do you know who those men are?

00:24:22.760 No, but so, so both are former Navy seals, incredible men, both former podcast guests

00:24:28.660 and Chad had issued this challenge and Andy Stumpf took it on. And the challenge was to attempt to

00:24:37.560 spend less than an hour a day on your phone. And it's really easy to track cause Apple and I'm sure

00:24:42.540 Android devices have, you know, notifications that share how long you're on the phone. And,

00:24:48.640 um, Andy said it was really, really difficult. The lowest he was able to get to was about an hour

00:24:53.040 and a half. And I thought, you know, I need to talk to him. He's actually coming back on the podcast,

00:24:56.300 but I thought to myself that probably really enriched his life. It probably gave him three hours

00:25:02.980 of life a day back that he was just spending mindlessly on nothing and nonsense and what everybody

00:25:12.360 else wants you to pay attention to. Yeah. And, and additionally, I would imagine, I love it by

00:25:18.740 the way, and I'm tempted to try it myself. That would be, that'd be wonderful. Like there, and not

00:25:24.160 just the time that you get back, but, um, I imagine there's going to be a lot of, and maybe he talked

00:25:29.540 about this in introduced the idea, but I imagine there's going to be a lot of urges to, I want to

00:25:35.980 pick up my phone. I, I want to look at something like, like what is driving the, the need to pick

00:25:43.700 up my phone right here? Like I can't, like when we can just pick it up, we don't ever question the

00:25:48.820 motive is behind it, but when we want to pick it up, but we just leave it sit there. Like what is,

00:25:53.920 why is this so hard for me to shake? Why do I so desperately want there? And then it allows us to

00:25:59.000 evaluate, like, is this a healthy motivation or is this unhealthy? Is this furthering me or is it

00:26:04.820 hindering me? It's interesting because I would say if I had to just anecdotally assume the amount

00:26:13.000 of time that I'm edified by looking at my phone versus, um, beat down by looking at my phone,

00:26:18.860 I would say I'm probably this, I think this is generous, but I'm probably 20% edified because,

00:26:25.800 you know, I got a text from one of my kids or I pulled up a social media account and I saw one of

00:26:30.380 my friends winning at something, or, you know, somebody said something constructive and positive.

00:26:34.820 and encouraging in my life on social media. And that's probably, again, I'm being generous 20%

00:26:39.300 of the time, but 80% is I'm comparing myself to that guy. Uh, I'm checking my emails before bed.

00:26:46.940 And now I've got my head in a, in a spin because I'm worried about the bills for the business that

00:26:52.340 need to be paid. And 80% of it again, generously is just nonsense and just hurting me psychologically.

00:27:01.140 Yeah. Well, you need to pick better stocks if you're just 20% of the time.

00:27:07.780 Um, well, I wish I knew the answer to that. If, if I knew the answer to that, maybe we'd be having a

00:27:12.680 different conversation or not at all. I don't know. Cal, uh, Cal, Cal Newport in his book,

00:27:17.540 uh, digital minimalism. He, he talks about the, any benefit mentality and how like, um, Hey,

00:27:24.900 Facebook allows me to stay in touch with my family or allows me to stay in touch with my high school

00:27:30.880 friends. Like, like there's a benefit to Facebook. And so, because there's one little benefit to it,

00:27:36.860 then we keep it and we log onto it. And we don't even notice that 90% of the time we're not using

00:27:43.780 it for that one benefit. And 90% of the time it's become a drag on us, uh, as opposed to the good

00:27:49.880 that it's bringing into our life. Guys, I'm just going to step away from the conversation very

00:27:55.140 briefly. Don't worry. We'll be right back to it. But, uh, in line with the idea of minimalism,

00:28:01.140 I don't really think that men need a bunch more information. Uh, what we need is, is pressure,

00:28:06.760 proving ground, uh, brotherhood, basically a line in the sand. And we're, we're doing this forge event

00:28:13.220 in April. And I would love to have you out there. Uh, it's just outside of St. Louis, April 23rd and 26.

00:28:19.300 And it's not a conference where you just sit quietly and take notes like a good little boy.

00:28:24.240 It's an experience and it's designed to pull away comfort, uh, pull away distraction and maybe even

00:28:31.080 excuses. And it forces you to confront who you've been, uh, where you've drifted in life and also

00:28:36.860 the man that you know you're capable of becoming. So you don't come to the forge to be entertained or

00:28:41.760 anything like that, but you come to be sharpened. So if you're tired of carrying the weight alone,

00:28:45.540 you're tired of committing halfway, uh, tired of knowing what to do, but not actually doing it,

00:28:51.460 then this is your call to action. I want to see you there. It's going to be an incredible event.

00:28:55.340 Dwayne Noel is going to be out there with us. And this is April 23rd through the 26th. And you're

00:28:59.340 going to stand shoulder to shoulder with the men here who demand more from themselves,

00:29:03.060 uh, men who value discipline, uh, integrity, responsibility. These are things that we look for

00:29:08.600 in others. Sometimes it's a little hard to find, but you're going to leave with clarity. You're

00:29:11.960 going to leave with conviction. Hopefully you'll leave with a renewed fire to lead your life and

00:29:16.140 your people. Well, uh, guys, as I said before, we don't drift into strong lives. We create it

00:29:21.720 and you forge it and you build it. And that's what this experience is all about. So check it out at

00:29:26.080 themensforge.com. That's themensforge.com. I hope to see you there. Now back to it with Joshua.

00:29:34.460 Yeah. Well, yeah, that's a good point. If there's one benefit, then it's worth it.

00:29:39.840 Maybe in some aspects of life, I, I, I could agree with that. You know, like if I, if I put

00:29:45.380 this message out in the world and it helps just one person, is it worth it? Yeah. I can make that

00:29:49.000 case, but there's other arguments like you're saying where that just doesn't, that doesn't add

00:29:53.320 up. The math is not mathing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great thought. It's, it's a brilliant idea and

00:29:58.820 can really change how you think of a lot of different things. The any benefit mentality. So good,

00:30:04.100 especially in tech. I mean, it's a book about digital minimalism. So, you know, buying that phone or

00:30:09.400 taking that phone with you or whatever you're scrolling or adding to it. Oh, I just, I just

00:30:14.800 heard a thing on, um, I think Dave Ramsey posted this on speaking of, you know, scrolling on social

00:30:20.300 media. It was a clip from Dave Ramsey and he had a caller on who had just won $22 million after taxes

00:30:28.180 on some work pool lottery ticket or something. And he was being very, very wise and very prudent with

00:30:36.360 his, with his earnings. And he hadn't told anybody yet outside of his wife. And I think maybe a sister

00:30:41.140 or something. And he, Dave Ramsey said, Hey, are you like, how are you spending the money? He's like,

00:30:46.800 I haven't spent any of it. Like I'm working still. I haven't spent any money. My wife and I have a

00:30:51.560 couple of Toyotas that we bought years ago. They're great cars. Like we don't need to replace our cars.

00:30:56.560 And I'm like, man, this is a guy who gets it. This is a guy who understands it. And probably if,

00:31:03.780 if I knew nothing else about him, I w I would bet on him being able to keep and build his wealth

00:31:08.760 because he's making good decisions. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. Um,

00:31:14.880 you know, easy come, easy go, as they like to say, um, uh, the, the quicker money comes,

00:31:21.160 I think the, the harder it is to become intentional with it, with it. I guess if you just look at any

00:31:26.820 generational wealth study, right? Like the, the more you got to work for it and the harder you

00:31:32.120 got to work for it, the, the wiser you are with it, as opposed to just hand it off to your kids

00:31:36.860 when you die. And, um, they're not sure what to do with it. They don't know the character and the

00:31:42.180 skills that it took to, to get there. So my guess is, you know, certainly this guy, I, I would

00:31:47.620 assume you listened to Dave Ramsey before. I, I mean, maybe just randomly picked him up and like,

00:31:52.580 I think he was the money guy that I got to call, but like there's Ramsey. Sure. Yeah. Like there's,

00:31:57.960 there's some mindset, there's some, something deeper than, Hey, I just want a lot of money to

00:32:02.720 spend on a lot of stuff that's driving, driving him, um, bigger purpose in life. And he wants to use

00:32:08.520 the money to further that purpose rather than, uh, being distracted by it. Good for him.

00:32:15.140 There's a, there's a chapter in your book called, I believe it's called, um, the end of anxiety.

00:32:21.440 And I was really intrigued by that chapter because I think there is so much anxiety. There's so much

00:32:27.080 frustration. There's so much contention. There's so much turmoil. We kind of started the conversation

00:32:31.620 with sarcastically saying there isn't any of that in the world. And obviously we know it's greater than

00:32:35.700 ever. Um, explain that to me a little bit, because I think most of the men listening and even in the

00:32:41.520 context of the book, which is more of a faith-based book, I'd love to hear what you have to say about

00:32:45.480 it because there are so many men who are struggling myself included to some degree with a level of

00:32:51.060 crippling anxiety that I think the world has never known before. Yeah. Yeah. And certainly probably a lot

00:32:57.900 of factors that, that lead into it. Um, the book on cluttered faith takes a, a pretty deep dive into

00:33:05.960 not a, not a like theological seminary level, like parsing words, dive into what Jesus has to say

00:33:14.020 about money and possessions. But, uh, it takes a look at some really significant teachings that Jesus

00:33:20.780 offers us concerning money and possessions. And the premise is that when we actually live out what Jesus

00:33:28.700 invited us to live out concerning how we spend our money and what we do with our possessions, that there's a

00:33:35.760 lot of spiritual benefits that come into our life. And there's a, a, a pretty well-known story, uh, in the book of

00:33:44.200 Luke chapter 12, where this guy shows up to Jesus and he's like, Hey, my brother's not splitting my

00:33:51.760 parents' inheritance with me. Can you help? And Jesus is like, no, like you go, go to the courts.

00:33:58.120 Like you, like, I'm not here to settle that for you guys here right now, but he tells two stories. Uh, he

00:34:05.900 says, be on your, uh, be on guard against all kinds of greed. And he talks about greed when it comes to

00:34:14.140 money and possessions. And then he transitions, uh, he transitions in the very next conversation to talk

00:34:22.560 about worry and to talk about anxiety. And it's really interesting when you think about greed and

00:34:30.100 anxiety, uh, side by side, because greed and anxiety, both produce greed and worry, like both produce the

00:34:41.640 same result in our lives. It results in us holding onto more than we need. Greed is me wanting a lot

00:34:52.220 of stuff. Worry is me holding onto a lot of stuff as well. And yet in our culture, like greed is shunned

00:35:00.140 and worry is wisdom and wise and anxiety. I think it has a negative common connotation to it, but like,

00:35:07.720 no, be worried, save money, like be really careful. Um, anyway, so that's a long point to, to get to

00:35:14.360 this. And I think the, maybe the most important point about this is like never in human history,

00:35:23.120 have we owned as many possessions as we do now. You could probably make the case that America on average

00:35:31.620 is the, the wealth, not on average, but in per capita, uh, in, um, gross national product is the

00:35:37.840 richest country in the history of the world. And yet anxiety is skyrocketing and is at the highest

00:35:47.540 levels possible. And I think if not possible, but the highest levels we've ever seen. And I think

00:35:53.300 the moral of the story needs to be, Hey, making a lot of money, having a lot of stuff, isn't going to

00:36:01.260 solve my worry and it isn't going to solve my anxiety. Um, is it even causing it? Maybe perhaps,

00:36:10.020 but I think at some point we've got to sit down and I think at some point we've got to sit down

00:36:16.540 and think to ourselves, Hey, clearly more money in the bank, isn't going to solve my anxiety and

00:36:22.080 isn't going to solve my worry. Yeah, I would agree. And I guess there's from a, from a financial

00:36:27.840 perspective, we were talking about Ramsey earlier and I'm a, uh, financial advisor in a former life,

00:36:33.020 but there's really only two ways to wealth and just abundance in general, not even financial

00:36:37.780 wealth, just abundance in general is to obtain more or desire less. Like those are the only two

00:36:45.240 ways. There's no other way around it. And, and I'm beginning to think that, yes, I think you should

00:36:51.020 be aspirational. This is a show about being aspirational. This is a show about improving your

00:36:54.920 capacity. This is a show about, um, serving the people that you love and having resources and

00:37:00.640 abundance to be able to do that. But I'm seeing more and more that there's, there's a lot more room

00:37:09.120 in my life and many other men's lives for wanting less. Yeah. Uh, I agree. And, uh, earning more and

00:37:18.980 wanting less would be the, the best formula, best formula of them all. Right. John, um, John Wesley

00:37:25.920 in a, uh, sermon one time, he said, um, earn as much as you can save as much as you can and give as

00:37:32.900 much as you can. And I think that's, I think that's the approach to life that we take, you know,

00:37:37.940 like we should be working as hard as we can. And by the way, minimalism isn't about losing ambition.

00:37:43.420 It's not about not working hard. Like when I found minimalism, I found that I was able to work better

00:37:49.800 and work more and probably make more than I did. Well, I know I make more than I did before I found

00:37:54.840 minimalism. So it's not about, um, not earning. And then he talks about saving more. And that's not

00:38:01.160 like I'm going to have the most money in my retirement account that I possibly can. It's about

00:38:05.020 don't buy stupid stuff. Like don't be frivolous with your spending. Uh, and so that we can give more

00:38:10.440 and serve more and help others as best as possible, which I think is a great, I think it's the

00:38:14.940 approach to life we should all be taking. Well, it's just more fulfilling, right? Like when you're

00:38:19.320 actually, uh, deploying your resources that you have. And my friend, Bedros Koulian, which a lot

00:38:25.900 of men know that are listening to this podcast, he, he talks about money as a magnifier. Money just makes

00:38:31.200 you more of who you already are. So if you were greedy and, um, kind of a jerk and selfish than having

00:38:37.380 more money, he will just be able to exacerbate that problem. But if you were abundant and you

00:38:42.780 were giving and you were kind and empathetic and compassionate, then having money will allow you

00:38:46.980 to do much more of that. It's just a magnifier. Even though I think many times the narrative is that

00:38:53.920 money will make you a bad person, um, or having a lot of it means you're inherently a bad person.

00:39:00.160 Yeah. I think there are, there are different temptations in life when you have more money than

00:39:06.800 when you don't have. We, we think a lot about, um, the temptations when you live in poverty. Uh,

00:39:13.960 but we don't talk a lot about the temptations that come when, when you have a lot of money and

00:39:19.200 the worries that come with that and, uh, the behaviors that, that can come from it. And so I

00:39:25.380 agree. Like the Bible says, if you're faithful with a little, then you'll be faithful with a lot.

00:39:28.960 And so there's certainly, there's certainly a piece to that. Um, but, uh, but also there's a lot of,

00:39:34.540 a lot of dangers that Jesus gives us about when you have money and, uh, when you're wealthy. And

00:39:40.060 so I think that there's a new intentionality that we need to bring into our life in that,

00:39:45.900 uh, in that situation for sure. But yeah, in and of itself, money is not moral or immoral. Um,

00:39:52.660 and if we're working hard and serving people, then money's going to come into our life. And I think

00:39:57.520 the question then becomes, how do we, how do we use it wisely? And how do we use it in a way that

00:40:02.460 brings us the most fulfillment and meaning and serves the most amount of people along the way?

00:40:07.200 At least that's how I look at it. I mean, I think you're right. I I've got another friend.

00:40:11.280 His name is Kip Falks. He's the co-founder of Under Armour. And he, he built that to a billion

00:40:16.780 dollar business. He said, I am not going to slow down until I build this into a billion dollar

00:40:20.960 business. And they've surpassed that multiple times over at this point. Um, but he ended up leaving

00:40:27.680 years ago. I don't know, I don't know exactly. So I don't want to say, but years ago, maybe even

00:40:32.020 close to a decade ago, he stepped away from it. And he was often asked, you know, why would you step

00:40:37.320 away from this incredible money-making machine? And he says, you know, I got a sneak peek into the

00:40:43.760 world of extreme wealth. The door was opened and I took a peek behind the door that to what life looks

00:40:53.400 like when money is not an issue. And I did not like what I saw and he stepped away to his credit,

00:40:59.920 but it's, there are so many more temptations when you have wealth that doesn't solve your problems.

00:41:05.420 It exacerbates them in many ways. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great story. Uh, the, the Bible says it

00:41:12.780 this way. It's easier for a camel to pass through. I have a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom

00:41:16.860 of God. And, um, I think in a lot of ways, it's saying the same thing when we don't have to rely

00:41:23.440 on people, uh, when we lose some of that humility that comes from, from need and success is a terrible

00:41:31.100 teacher. Right. Um, and, uh, the more that comes into our life, I think the harder it is to, to find

00:41:37.140 the humility that we need to be, uh, to be good people. So yeah, that's it. And, and, you know,

00:41:42.280 the problem is that the, the most of us are wealthy. Like the easiest thing about wealth is

00:41:47.260 I don't have it. The person with more has it. And yet, you know, I mean, in America, we're like,

00:41:54.780 we're all in the top 10%. Like most of us are 1%. It's just, it's an interesting conversation,

00:42:00.500 right? I think where people are so mad at the 1% and I'm like, you know, globally, almost all of us

00:42:06.380 in America are in the top 5%. So yeah, easiest to point fingers at those who have more supposed to

00:42:15.640 looking at our own financial ethic. But I read a study years ago and they interviewed a bunch of

00:42:20.960 people and it said, you know, if you could make, and I'm, I'm using arbitrary numbers to prove the

00:42:24.500 point, but the study was something like, you know, if you could make $70,000 and everyone around you

00:42:30.080 was making $65,000, would you take that as option a or as option B, would you take a hundred thousand

00:42:39.220 dollars, but your neighbors were all making 120,000. And most people chose option a to make $30,000 less

00:42:49.480 simply because they were making more than their neighbors relative to making $30,000 more,

00:42:55.660 but 20,000 less than their neighbors. That was crazy to me. It's the, the psychology behind that

00:43:02.160 is wild, but I can see how it's very enticing for people. Yeah. Yeah. I think the psychology of

00:43:09.160 money and the psychology of possessions and wanting a bigger house, even though the one I have is

00:43:14.660 plenty big, wanting more clothes, even though the ones I have are plenty enough, wanting, wanting a new

00:43:20.540 car, even though the one I have gets me to where I'm going every single day. And like, like really

00:43:25.780 digging deep into like, where, where's this coming from? Like, why, why can't I ever be satisfied?

00:43:32.220 It's like the, like money and possessions are like salt water. Like the more we have the, the less

00:43:39.640 fulfilled we are, uh, as opposed to, you know, true fulfilling living water. Do you, do you subscribe to

00:43:47.460 that? There's a, there's a quote that I've heard, I'm sure you have as well, is that what you own ends

00:43:53.520 up owning you. Do you subscribe to that idea? What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I like

00:44:00.640 to think we, uh, we don't own things. We just, um, purchase their maintenance. That's good. Yeah. That's

00:44:08.240 really good. Yeah. I mean, when you, and you can see this, like the best way to think of this is

00:44:13.600 like I can, it makes sense to me that my largest purchases require maintenance. I got to take care

00:44:20.660 of my house. I got to take care of my car. I got to get the air conditioner tuned every year. Like,

00:44:26.020 like those really big things need our focus and need our inch, need our attention. But the reality

00:44:31.960 is all the little things around us do as well. Like the clothes in our closet need to be moved around.

00:44:39.820 The pots and pans need to be put away. Like everything we have requires a little bit of

00:44:45.640 maintenance. It's just the smaller, the item, the less maintenance we notice that they require from

00:44:52.200 us, which would be fine if we just owned what we needed. But the problem is the average American home

00:45:00.680 has 300,000 items inside of it. And just the cumulative effect of all those little things that

00:45:08.180 require our attention and focus, not to mention the money that they took to buy. Yeah. The, the stuff we

00:45:15.440 own ends up, ends up owning us for sure, which is what makes minimalism so freeing and so beneficial

00:45:22.000 to, to living a meaningful life. The, I didn't know 300,000 items on average inside the average

00:45:30.560 American's home. Is that what you're saying? That's wild. Yep. That was a, that was a stat in the LA

00:45:36.000 times. I don't know, maybe 15 years ago. So I, Oh, so it's more now. I'm sure. I would, I would guess

00:45:42.060 it's even more, you know, I, I was blogging about minimalism during COVID and I had this vision that

00:45:49.280 minimalism was going to like go mainstream during COVID. Like everybody's stuck in their home with

00:45:56.040 all their clutter. Like everyone's going to be reading websites about how to get rid of my clutter,

00:46:01.140 but it was the exact opposite. Like it was people buying more, like now I need the home gym. Yeah.

00:46:09.040 Now we need this stuff in the backyard. Now we need the bigger house, but the more stuff. And, um,

00:46:14.360 it was really interesting. I thought people living with all their stuff would be motivated to get rid

00:46:19.220 of it, but instead just the opposite, uh, the opposite was the case. Well, I think what you were saying

00:46:25.380 too about, I love that concept of purchasing their maintenance. I'd never heard that before, but that is

00:46:30.700 so accurate. Whether you buy a dog for your kids or like, I've got this dog and we love the dog,

00:46:36.640 but I have to buy dog food and I have to take them to the kennel when I go out of town and I have to

00:46:43.940 groom him, which I don't want to do because I'm busy doing other things that I enjoy. That's so

00:46:48.620 interesting. But when you said that it reminded me of subscription fees, you know, it's like Netflix

00:46:54.900 cost you, I don't know what it is anymore, 20 bucks maybe. And then I just got an email right before I

00:46:59.820 jumped on this podcast with you from quick quack carwash. That's the local automatic carwash here

00:47:05.760 in town. And, um, it said, Hey, we're, we're moving your fee from whatever it was like $25 to $30 a

00:47:16.140 month starting February 1st. And I'm like, okay, hold on a second. So a carwash is $8. And so that means I

00:47:27.800 need to do at least four car washes a month for that to make sense. Okay. Wait, when's the last time I

00:47:34.320 washed my car? Oh, two months ago. Yeah. I think I'll cancel that. I can afford $30, but it's death

00:47:41.440 by a thousand cuts. You add $30 plus the $10 trial app that you bought that just rolled over and you

00:47:46.940 forgot about it. Plus the Netflix, plus the Disney plus, plus the Paramount and the UFC and all these

00:47:52.500 other things. And all of a sudden you're spending five, six, seven, eight, a thousand dollars a month

00:47:57.720 on nonsense. Yeah. And, uh, and even think about that in just the light, like lifestyle inflation,

00:48:06.720 right? That's the, that's the word we use where like you make a little bit more. And so you buy a

00:48:12.360 little bit more stuff and you get used to this stage of life and you get used to having all the

00:48:18.220 streaming services and the car wash whenever I want it, uh, the house cleaner that comes in,

00:48:23.700 the people who do my yard, this, this brand of car, whatever it might be. And like taking any step

00:48:29.320 back is so difficult because we, it just becomes normal. It becomes what we expect it to. And it's

00:48:37.700 why we can get four or five raises over the course of our lifetime and never end up saving any more

00:48:43.440 money because we just spend more. And we set, we set the new normal and all the studies will say

00:48:50.160 that, that none of that stuff makes any happier, that it feels good for a little while, but slowly

00:48:55.900 always just settle back down to your baseline level of happiness. And, um, those things don't bring

00:49:02.760 about any, any real, real change, but stepping back feels really difficult and is really hard to do.

00:49:09.880 One of the chapters in the book is, I think it's titled enough is enough. And that's a question

00:49:16.360 that we often get asked from the men who, who tune in is how, like, how, how do you, we're probably

00:49:23.800 already, most of us are probably already at that point. If I'm being honest, like most of us are

00:49:28.900 probably already there, but how do you begin to embrace the mentality of I have enough? And then

00:49:36.080 secondary to that question is how do you balance that with ambition? Okay. Uh, let me do the, uh,

00:49:44.580 let me answer the second one. Uh, first, how do I balance having enough with ambition? Um, we balance,

00:49:53.180 uh, having enough, we balance contentment with ambition by realizing that there are greater things

00:50:02.540 in life for me to be ambitious about than money and possessions. I want to, I want to make a difference

00:50:12.460 in the world. I want to love people better. I want to serve people better. I want to become the best

00:50:17.400 version of myself. I want to have a clear conscience at the end of the day. Like, like those are the

00:50:23.420 pursuits. And I, and what I actually believe happens is that when I become content with my possessions

00:50:31.040 and my money, uh, realizing that I have enough and I'm freed up to begin pursuing those greater goals

00:50:40.660 that I actually live a more driven and ambitious life because I'm not chasing some cheap substitute

00:50:50.060 for happiness. I'm chasing the real thing. So, uh, that's my answer to your second question. The first,

00:50:57.040 the first question, how do I know when I have enough? I legitimately believe this and I know it

00:51:03.600 is true. You discover you have enough when you start giving and you start being generous. Like

00:51:11.640 just think of, Hey, if I were to donate a thousand dollars this month, a hundred dollars this month,

00:51:18.880 $50 this month, 10,000, like it's going to depend on kind of where you are and how much you might

00:51:23.480 already be giving. But let's say you donate a thousand dollars this month to a charity that

00:51:27.980 you're passionate about, or you help the, the single mom on your street, who, you know, is

00:51:33.180 struggling. And a thousand dollars would be like life changing for her. And, and it's nothing for you

00:51:39.640 like give away the thousand dollars and then come home. And you'll notice I still have food. I still

00:51:47.300 have shelter. I still have clothing. Like I still have all that I need to live my life just fine.

00:51:55.060 And suddenly in that moment, you can think to yourself, you know what? I had an extra thousand

00:52:01.420 dollars that I could give away, which means by definition that I have enough already. I have so

00:52:09.900 much that I can be giving some away. And then maybe challenge yourself the next month to give away

00:52:16.280 even more and even more. And every time you give stuff away, it's like, uh, uh, a reassessment

00:52:24.560 of, okay, I have enough in my life. I have enough in the bank. I'm providing for my family

00:52:31.580 just fine. And I have enough to give away. Does that make sense? I mean, that's how I,

00:52:37.840 yeah, that's how I think of it. There's, there's certainly the math, like you can do the math of,

00:52:42.540 this is how much I need to get by. And I did that one. I went full time, you know,

00:52:46.280 but, um, but that's, that can change. And it's based on what's my standard of life and what do

00:52:52.640 I want it to be? And what do I think it needs to be? And it's actually interesting. There's all

00:52:56.240 these stats that the more money you make, the more money you think you need, uh, tons of stats about

00:53:02.200 how much, what you decide, what you figure is wealthy is very different when you have a hundred

00:53:06.980 thousand net worth than 1 million net worth. And so, um, so that can be hard. I think the best way is to

00:53:12.760 give something away, realize you still have enough and suddenly, okay, I've, I have enough excess and

00:53:17.860 maybe I have even more than I think. And it's very freeing to find that it's a, it's an amazing

00:53:22.560 moment when you realize, okay, I got enough money coming in. There's enough clothes in my closet.

00:53:28.540 There's enough, uh, stuff here to, to provide.

00:53:31.500 One of the things I, I haven't done this for a long time, but this is kind of inspiring me to do this

00:53:36.260 again is that I, um, I would think, okay, I'm going to forego something that I like, but I don't

00:53:43.800 necessarily need, you know, like a Red Bull. Like I love to go to the, I love to go to the gas station

00:53:48.480 in the morning and get a Red Bull energy drink. It's like, it's my vice. It's my go-to. And it cost me

00:53:53.800 about four bucks, you know, three to $3 and 50 cents, four bucks, something in there. Well, I got in this

00:53:59.740 habit and this was years ago. I haven't done this for a long time. I need to get back to this where

00:54:02.720 I'm like, okay, I'm not going to do that. And instead I'm going to save the money and then I'm

00:54:05.920 going to donate that. So if it was $4 times 30, that's 120 bucks a month that I could just give

00:54:11.420 away because I didn't have a Red Bull. Like, I think I can handle that. I think, I think that's

00:54:16.340 manageable. But you know, the other thing that's interesting too, Joshua is I think what you're

00:54:21.460 saying, this idea of generosity, I, I, I believe that it breeds abundance. So I'll give you a story.

00:54:27.640 Um, this was a month or two ago. I was at the grocery store with a friend of mine and there was

00:54:35.580 a woman in front of us who I could tell was struggling to pick up a few basic snacks. She

00:54:42.360 was like counting coins or I saw her put her car down. It was declined. She was just struggling.

00:54:48.060 And I, and I asked the cashier, I said, how much is it? And she's like, it's, it was like five bucks.

00:54:54.220 I'm like, I got it. Just put it on mine. I got it. And she's like, no, the lady in front. She's

00:54:58.100 like, no, no, no. I'm like, no, I got it. We're good. Just pay it forward when you get the chance

00:55:01.760 and you get things figured out. And you know, I paid for her $5 thing and I didn't think anything

00:55:06.480 of it. And the, the $5 meant more to her than it meant to me at the, at the time. And then I'm not

00:55:13.160 kidding you. This was probably a week later. I'm in Vegas and I take my son to the grocery store to get a

00:55:20.560 few snacks for all the kids, some donuts and snacks for breakfast for the morning. And we walk in and

00:55:25.340 there's a Pokemon vending machine and he loves Pokemon cards. I don't know if you've seen these

00:55:29.320 vending machines, but you can go buy cards from a vending machine. And I'm like, Hey bud, let's go

00:55:32.860 over here. And we go over there and there's a guy in front of us and he bought the last pack in the

00:55:38.880 entire vending machine. And he turned around. I'm like, Oh, did you get the last pack? He's like,

00:55:42.760 yeah, I did. I'm like, I'm like, Oh, that's awesome. He's like, were you guys going to buy something?

00:55:46.500 And I said, yeah, we're going to buy something, but it's cool. Like you got the last pack or

00:55:49.260 whatever. He's like here. And he gave the pack to my son. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You don't

00:55:53.500 have to get, he's like, no, no, here. And he gave it to my son. He's like, this is more important to

00:55:57.440 him than it is to me. And I said, can I, can I pay you? Can I give you like 10 bucks or whatever?

00:56:02.300 He's like, no, no, this is my gift. And then we went from that grocery store to the donut shop

00:56:07.580 down the, just in the same parking lot. And I get in there and order half a dozen donuts for all the

00:56:13.800 kids. And I get to the teller and I pull out my credit card and she's like, Oh, it's cash only.

00:56:19.520 And it came to like 18 bucks. And I'm like, Oh crap. So I pulled out my wallet. I had like

00:56:24.800 $12 in cash. And I'm like, all I have is 12. Can I put a few donuts back? And there's a guy in line,

00:56:31.060 an older gentleman. He's like, no, no, no, I got you. Here's five bucks or whatever I needed.

00:56:36.260 And he gave me them. I'm like, no, I don't, you don't, I'll just put the donuts back. He's like,

00:56:39.240 no, no, no, no here. And he paid for our donuts. And I don't think it was coincidence. I really

00:56:46.320 believe that generosity breeds abundance and it brings prosperity into your life.

00:56:53.240 Yeah. For me, for me as a Christian, it's, you know, it, it, you don't have to be a Christian to

00:57:03.980 believe in, you know, what you put out in the world comes back to you. But for me, it's, yeah,

00:57:09.300 you know what, if I'm, if I'm faithful with what God has given me, then, then he's going to take care

00:57:13.940 of me going forward. And I'll tell you our story. When I signed a two book deal to write books about

00:57:23.740 minimalism, my first two books, The More of Less and The Minimalist Home. And my wife and I, like we

00:57:29.400 were in on minimalism. Like we were happy to own less. And suddenly I get this two book deal,

00:57:37.820 pretty sizable, two big deal, two book deal to write two books about how buying things won't

00:57:43.740 make you happy. And I got paid a lot of money to write a book about how buying things won't make

00:57:48.540 you happy. And I'm sitting down on the couch with Kim and I'm like, what, like, what are we going to

00:57:54.160 do here? Like, are we, are we going to upgrade the television and the furniture and go buy all the

00:57:59.800 stuff that I'm about to tell people won't make them happy. And, um, we knew pretty early on that

00:58:05.320 we weren't going to. And so we took the book advanced money and we started a nonprofit called

00:58:11.660 the hope effect, which is changing the way the world cares for orphans and just celebrated 10 years

00:58:16.520 and works in, uh, 10 different cities around the world. Um, but I, I called my sister around that

00:58:23.200 time. My kids were, um, kids were, uh, so 12 and eight, something like that. And I told, I told my

00:58:31.720 sister about it and we're going to go start this nonprofit to help orphan children find families.

00:58:37.240 And I said, uh, well, what would you do with the money? And she goes, well, I probably would have

00:58:44.820 started a college fund for my kids. And I remember thinking to myself, actually, that's not a bad

00:58:51.820 idea. That never crossed my mind, but now you mentioned it, that might've been a pretty smart

00:58:59.020 thing to do. And then, and then I said, um, yeah, but Jana, if I use this money to help orphaned

00:59:08.500 children grow up inside of a family, when my kids get to college age, do you really think that God

00:59:17.820 isn't going to provide a way for them to go to college? And I, I share that story. It was a,

00:59:24.780 a life-changing moment for me where certainly as a believer and as someone who believes in a loving

00:59:32.200 personal God, that there's, there's nothing safer I can do with my money, then, then put it to where

00:59:41.140 God is telling me to put it. Uh, I, I, I feel more secure knowing that I was faithful in that decision

00:59:48.400 than if I just put the money in the bank, to be honest. And I, uh, you're right about abundance.

00:59:54.760 Um, and I think not just like the, the blessings come back to us, but the, the internal security of

01:00:02.260 knowing that we've been faithful and that we've been wise and good and intentional, uh, and that

01:00:08.120 that's going to play itself out in the long run, um, is beneficial to us as well. I'm, I'm really

01:00:14.600 glad. I actually, so I've been taking notes this whole time. And one of the things that I highlighted

01:00:18.280 is something you just touched on, which is, um, being able to manage what you currently have,

01:00:23.140 you know, that's a biblical principle to, if, if you take care of what you have in little,

01:00:27.860 then you'll be given much, you know, you even think about like the parable of the talents, right.

01:00:32.160 And there's a word that comes to mind for me. And that word is stewardship. And, and I think so many

01:00:38.960 people want the blessing and the prosperity and, and all the things and the gidgets and the gizmos and

01:00:47.480 all these things without being good stewards over the current resources they have. And what I found

01:00:54.040 to be true in my life is that when we learn to be good stewards over what we currently have, there's

01:00:58.100 no possible way that more won't find its way into your life. It's just not possible. And, uh, you

01:01:06.320 know, everybody thinks that the money's going to solve it. No, being a good steward over your current

01:01:10.100 financial situation, or, you know, you think, uh, having six pack abs or, or, you know, doing surgery

01:01:16.800 to improve some cosmetic feature of you will make your life different. No, being a good steward over

01:01:22.960 your body will bring that abundance to you. I just, it's just a universal timeless principle that just

01:01:31.080 can't be ignored. It's also, I think the way we overcome envy and the way we overcome jealousy and

01:01:38.880 comparison to others. Like if I know I am being faithful with what I have, then it doesn't matter

01:01:47.920 what someone else buys. Like if I waste my money and buying something that I shouldn't be buying. And

01:01:57.260 then my neighbor comes home with a boat. I'm like, Oh man, I wish I had saved the money so I could buy the

01:02:02.760 boat. But if I use the money to, you know, help the single mom down the street, if I use the

01:02:08.800 money to start the nonprofit, if I, if I donate it, where I know I'm supposed to be donating it or to,

01:02:15.340 to build the thing that I know I'm supposed to build with it, then it doesn't matter that my neighbor

01:02:20.160 bought a boat because I know I did what I was supposed to do with my money and with my talents

01:02:29.240 and with my resources. And if I'm using my body in the way that God intended me to use it,

01:02:36.460 and I'm using it for the things that I know he wants me to use it for, then I, then I don't care

01:02:42.260 if someone else has better abs, if someone else has broader shoulders, like I'm going to take care

01:02:47.620 of my health because it's the physical instrument through which I bring good into the world. But

01:02:52.380 I don't need to compare it to anyone else because I'm using my body to fulfill the good work that

01:02:57.720 God has called me to fulfill with it. And I can rest comfortable in that. And I can rest content in

01:03:03.380 that. Powerful. Well, Joshua, I appreciate your time, man. I I've been looking forward to this

01:03:09.740 conversation and I really enjoyed our previous conversation eight years ago. Um, I can't say

01:03:14.860 that I remember every aspect of the conversation itself, but, uh, but I know that it was a good one.

01:03:20.520 And, and, and this was as well, I would love for you to tell the guys where to pick up a copy of the

01:03:25.340 book, uncluttered faith, where to learn more about what you're doing. And then also, if you want to talk

01:03:29.300 about, um, I believe you said the nonprofit is called the hope effect. We'd love to hear about

01:03:33.720 that too. Yeah. Uh, the new book is called uncluttered faith, own less, love more, and make

01:03:39.960 an impact in your world. Uh, it, um, it is a positive, inspiring book. I, I've been to many

01:03:47.360 churches and sat through many sermons about how consumerism is evil and materialism is bad, but I,

01:03:54.280 I don't know if I ever heard a pastor stand up and say, let me tell you about all the good things

01:03:59.280 all the spiritual promises that come into your life when you, uh, intentionally own less and you

01:04:04.220 become faithful with your money and with your possessions. And so that's the book that I, that

01:04:08.660 I wanted to write. I think, uh, people find it very inspiring. Certainly if you are a follower of

01:04:14.180 Jesus and want to follow him, you're going to love the book. Um, trying to expand the market. I,

01:04:19.820 I think it's good if you're at all interested in the spiritual connection between minimalism

01:04:24.200 and, um, spirituality and faith. I think it would benefit someone, uh, that way as well. The book

01:04:30.700 comes out February 10th. So right around the corner and certainly available for pre-order

01:04:35.140 anywhere and everywhere. Uh, hopeeffect.com is, um, the hope effects. We're changing the way the world

01:04:43.280 cares for orphans. Man, a whole fascinating conversation could, could be had about it, but we've had,

01:04:49.420 we've got a hundred years of research that orphanages are pretty harmful for kids. And so

01:04:55.380 in most developed nations, uh, we've moved beyond orphanages and we use foster care, but in a lot of

01:05:02.340 poor countries, developing nations, they still use orphanages as their primary way to care for

01:05:07.680 orphaned and vulnerable children. So that's where we work helping them transition, uh, because every

01:05:12.260 child deserves a family. Um, and so that's the work that we're doing there. And thanks for letting me

01:05:17.020 talk about that. Of course. Yeah. That's my, my mom years ago, gosh, this was probably, oh man, 15,

01:05:25.460 maybe, maybe even 20 years ago, 15, 20 years ago, went to Romania to work at an orphanage.

01:05:31.580 And she said it was the most beautiful part of her life. And also the most just heart-wrenching.

01:05:38.100 She said it was horrible, but so grateful that she got to do that. So that's, that's interesting.

01:05:42.620 I'm gonna have to dig more into that work that you're doing. That's a, that's meaningful.

01:05:45.520 Joshua, I appreciate you, man. Thanks for joining me today. And, uh, we'll get all the

01:05:49.640 details out to the men so they can learn more about what you're doing. And, uh, thank you for

01:05:52.940 your time. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for your work and serving people.

01:05:58.660 There you go, gentlemen, my conversation with the one and only Joshua Becker. He's been on the

01:06:02.340 podcast years and years ago. I think what was it? Eight or nine years ago. I can't believe how fast

01:06:06.600 time goes, but very excited to have him on to talk about the concept of minimalism. I know when I get

01:06:12.720 rid of stuff in my own life, whether it's emotional or mental baggage and weight or actual physical

01:06:18.040 possessions, life seems to be a little easier, a little smoother. So I would love for you to check

01:06:24.480 out his new book. It's called uncluttered faith. It comes out the beginning of February. So get it

01:06:29.040 on pre-order for now and make sure you follow him on the socials and connect with him. Also take a

01:06:35.000 screenshot, let other people know what you're listening to and where you're getting good advice

01:06:38.760 and how you're becoming more of a man. And, um, the last thing is check out again, the men's

01:06:43.320 forge at themensforge.com. I hope to see you there. All right, guys, we will be back tomorrow

01:06:49.220 for our ask of anything until then go out there, take action and become a man. You were meant to be.

01:06:54.960 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:06:59.540 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:07:08.760 Thank you.

Order of Man - January 27, 2026

JOSHUA BECKER ｜ Enough is Enough： How Owning Less Gives You More

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