Order of Man - KELSI SHEREN ｜ Where Feminism and Vulnerability Go Wrong

00:00:00.000 This one's going to be a different one for you guys today for the third time in the history

00:00:04.380 of Order of Man in nearly a decade. We have a woman joining us on the podcast.

00:00:10.080 Kelsey Sharon is a good friend of mine and she is not afraid to pull any punches.

00:00:15.020 We've had some very public disagreements about the concept of vulnerability and feminism.

00:00:20.260 And I thought if we're going to take this movement to the next level, all of us,

00:00:24.020 myself included, need to take ourselves outside of our current comfort zones.

00:00:28.500 Today, Kelsey and I discuss masculine energy in women, where the idea of vulnerability falls

00:00:33.760 flat, the difference between feminism and modern day feminism, overcoming fear, why expectations

00:00:40.780 of others just set you up for failure, why honesty and humility may be a better approach

00:00:46.540 relative to vulnerability, where women and men fail each other and themselves, and so much more.

00:00:53.680 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly

00:00:58.340 chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:04.040 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who

00:01:10.840 you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:01:16.400 you can call yourself a man.

00:01:19.180 Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. Glad you're tuning in today. As I said in the intro,

00:01:24.620 we've got a very, very interesting one today, and I would highly encourage you to stick around,

00:01:29.040 to tune in, to check it out. Again, it's different than we've done in the past, and I think we need

00:01:34.100 to have some different conversations and round out the approach to masculinity and what it means to be

00:01:40.360 a man. Now, before I introduce you to my guest, just want to mention that I have some good friends

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00:02:58.940 use the code order of man. All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest today. Again, as I said

00:03:05.020 earlier, only the third woman to join me on the order of man podcast over the past decade, but I can't

00:03:11.260 think of very many women better to talk with us about what her perspective is on some of the most

00:03:18.540 polarizing social concepts of today. Feminism, vulnerability, war, masculine and feminine energy,

00:03:25.540 men's health, therapy, so much more. Again, her name is Kelsey Sharon. She is a Canadian combat veteran

00:03:31.720 who has served in the Canadian, American, and British military in some of the most hostile combat

00:03:37.980 situations in Afghanistan. She's also a Taekwondo champion and has battled PTSD and TBI, which is

00:03:44.520 traumatic brain injury from her time in service. She's been featured on Jordan Peterson, Lex Friedman,

00:03:53.180 Jocko Willings podcast, and now arguably her best feature, obviously, of course, the order of man

00:03:59.260 podcast. She is committed to helping combat veterans across the globe, building her incredible

00:04:03.880 influence as a highly sought after keynote speaker, author, and mindset and transformative coach.

00:04:10.700 Gentlemen, enjoy this one. Kelsey, so good to see you. I know this has been a long time in the works

00:04:16.200 and you told me, you're like, I didn't know this was ever going to happen because I don't have a penis.

00:04:20.720 This is true. I thought the vaginas weren't welcome here.

00:04:23.980 They are. They are typically to listen in, but I thought, you know, let's expand our horizons a little

00:04:29.120 bit. And we've had some really good conversations, um, over, over the internet mostly. Uh, and I think

00:04:35.160 there's some things that we agree on and I think there's some things that we disagree on. And I

00:04:38.500 thought, you know what, let's have a good conversation and show people how to have civil

00:04:43.180 discourse, even in disagreement. Yeah. That's what I like about your show. That's what I liked about you

00:04:48.920 when we, you came on my show a while back now, you know, I, I definitely am not one of those females

00:04:54.800 that is quite the same as the rest. I think I grew up around a lot of men and I've been in a lot of

00:05:00.100 environments with where I'm the only female in the room. So, you know, my, uh, hopefully your

00:05:04.660 listeners, you know, most of my listeners are men about 80% of them. So hopefully I can resonate with

00:05:09.420 some of them and we can, you know, either give some tools, have some hard conversations and just show

00:05:13.420 that you can be open. Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I think one of the things I appreciate or at least

00:05:19.080 acknowledge, and I I'm curious if you think the same way is you, you have a lot of what I would say

00:05:24.420 masculine energy. Would you describe it that way? Or would you describe it differently?

00:05:28.880 No, I get that. I get that descriptor quite frequently, to be honest with you. But I think

00:05:33.180 for a long time, um, I lived in this weird state of fight or flight, uh, after Afghanistan and it was

00:05:40.560 a coping mechanism to survive. And it was what had kept me safe when my coach decided to assault my

00:05:46.440 teammate. And when I went into the service and when I went into a male dominated trade and you know,

00:05:50.640 when I was a fighter, I was, I'm in the male dominated stuff. But the thing that I've noticed

00:05:55.240 is I grew up with a father who told me I could do whatever I wanted. It didn't matter. There was no

00:06:00.520 gender conversation in our home. I was cutting and splitting wood the same way my brother was cutting

00:06:05.160 and splitting wood the same way we were doing anything else. So, um, for me, I know others describe

00:06:10.560 it as masculine energy, but I am finding my way back to what it means to be feminine in that sense

00:06:16.780 and to feel safe in that feminine side of things. But yeah, I'm definitely a little more on that

00:06:22.520 side. How, if you, if you, since you're saying go back to more of that feminine space and feeling

00:06:28.000 comfortable in that femininity, how would you describe that relative to masculinity? Yeah. So

00:06:34.080 masculinity is definitely, uh, I feel like for women, a lot of the times it can be a coping mechanism

00:06:39.220 because they aren't able to process their feelings or emotions yet, or they just don't have the tools.

00:06:44.100 The feminine side of things is more of the, what comes out when I work with clients,

00:06:48.820 what comes out when I'm with my son, what comes out when I'm with my family, which is

00:06:52.040 this more empathetic, hold the space. What do you need? How do I help? And that, that lightness,

00:07:00.120 that touch, that, that, you know, that you don't need to be aggressive all of the time. And so the

00:07:04.920 feminine for me is more leaning into the side that can hold space differently, uh, than maybe

00:07:12.840 the masculine side of me can. I'm, I have no problem. Like, can I curse on this show?

00:07:18.180 Oh, get after it. We already, we already went through a bunch of politically incorrect words

00:07:22.420 before we record. So I try to be respectful too, but I do understand that, um, people don't like

00:07:27.880 when I curse, but in all fairness, like I will give you a fucking kick to the teeth if it's needed.

00:07:32.260 Like I don't have a problem with that. That's why 98% of my clients are men. It's because I can meet

00:07:38.340 you where you're at, whether that's a female or that's a male, I'll meet you where you're at and

00:07:43.080 I can match that energy. So it's less for me about, am I dancing in the feminine or the masculine,

00:07:46.960 or am I giving the client or the person or the people around me that container? And what does that

00:07:50.940 container look like? Yeah. I'm glad you said that because that was actually one of the follow-up

00:07:55.060 questions is, do you have a difficult time bouncing between being more of a masculine type approach to

00:08:00.520 clients or family? Uh, and then this feminine touch, which I would describe it very similarly to you.

00:08:05.500 You said empathetic and holding space. Nurturing is another word that comes to mind for me,

00:08:10.220 you know, and, and, you know, I think generally love, but that's not entirely true either. Men are

00:08:15.100 very loving. We just express it differently than women, generally speaking. And that's what I want

00:08:20.380 to talk to you about, because I think you and I are actually on the same page with a lot of it.

00:08:24.000 I just think it's about the expression. And I think it's about what's accepted in that expression

00:08:29.620 and what that can mean when the space is the right space to hold it in. And I think that's what makes,

00:08:34.280 you know, what you do and what I do different, but the same at the same time, you know, cause a lot

00:08:39.160 of the men I work with are special operators or their CEOs or the professional athletes. So

00:08:44.520 there's a very hard side to them that they show. But if what I found is if you can show up as the,

00:08:51.720 the more feminine side and kind of sit what I, this is how I describe it. So just bear with me,

00:08:56.340 but I kind of sit at the wall and I say that I'm going to sit here and I'm going to be here on the

00:09:01.480 other side of it when you're ready to let me through. And eventually it takes about three

00:09:05.100 sessions, but by the third, you can see the chip at the wall starting to happen. And most of the

00:09:09.540 time I find with men, if you just sit there long enough and they feel like they're safe enough,

00:09:16.100 they'll start letting it out. And that's kind of what I, my perception of like what you do for men

00:09:22.460 in your community is you give them the space and you say, we're right here. Whenever that happens,

00:09:26.820 whenever you're ready, whenever you feel like you want to open up, we're right here. And I do the

00:09:31.220 same, but I just, I just do it in a way where I kind of confuse them with the masculine at first

00:09:38.200 because they'd feel less intimidated. And then I slowly start to show them that they can trust

00:09:43.240 another woman. And then I'm not going to abandon them, that I'm not going to judge them, that I'm

00:09:47.520 going to meet them where they're at that day. Yeah. Jocko would call it, you flank them a little bit.

00:09:52.320 And I know you've been on Jocko's podcast before, so. Yeah. Okay. Moving on. It seems like

00:09:59.020 if I'm reading, if I'm reading the cues, right, it looks like I need to move along here.

00:10:03.640 You want to talk about it? No, I mean, we can, if you want, but we'll get, we'll get into some of

00:10:09.000 that. But let me ask you a different question. I think that you and I, a lot of the times, or not a

00:10:14.440 lot, but in the past, even though we very much agree on social media, I think we've debated in the

00:10:20.460 past over semantics, certain words. So for example, the two words that come to mind are

00:10:25.720 feminist and vulnerability. That's one that you and I have directly debated about and gotten

00:10:31.840 confrontational with each other. I felt so bad after two. It's fine. And because that's what

00:10:38.020 social media is designed to do, but then you and I hopped on a private thread and it was like, okay,

00:10:44.260 like we're actually not that far off from each other, but I do, but I do actually want to get

00:10:49.300 into the vulnerability conversation a little bit, specifically with men. Um, I don't like that

00:10:54.480 word because of the connotation it has with it. So I want to hear where you're coming from. Why don't,

00:11:00.640 why don't we start there? And then I'll express some other thoughts. So when you say vulnerability,

00:11:05.460 what, what exactly do you mean? What does that actually look like from your perspective?

00:11:09.400 Raw. So I'll give you an example. Um, I have a client right now who's an athlete and, um,

00:11:17.640 this dude came to me, like found me on social media. He found me through my, uh, Candace Horback

00:11:23.060 clip where we were talking about men, because I do have a really big problem with the way society is

00:11:29.840 looking at men. That's why I know you and I are on the same page because I am very aware of what society

00:11:34.800 and this patriarchy weirdness is doing to men and it's downsizing and it's shrinking and it's making

00:11:40.920 them less than. And when we do that, it creates problems. So he found me there. Anyway, we were

00:11:46.480 talking one time and I remember he went through something really hard and he put the camera down,

00:11:51.800 he put the phone down and I said, what are you doing? And he goes, you don't need to see this.

00:11:56.580 I said, no, no, no, no, no. This is exactly why I need to see this. Let it in. And I saw it and I saw

00:12:02.060 what he was going through and I just sat there and I said, no, was it an email or a text that he

00:12:06.520 had received or something? No, it was a death. It was a really heavy, heavy situation. He wasn't

00:12:11.080 prepared for, and he got emotional, but he wasn't ready to, at the time we just started working,

00:12:16.860 he wasn't ready to show me that. And so I sat there and I said, listen, you don't need to hide

00:12:21.480 that from me. I'm not judging that. That means that you're a human being. So to me, vulnerability

00:12:26.500 that as gross as that word can be, to me, what it really, what it really means is the willingness

00:12:32.120 to be open and raw in front of somebody else and to, to allow it to come out. Because what I struggle

00:12:40.060 with, and I think this is where, this is why I get the way I get about it. It's not about the word.

00:12:45.060 It's about the ability to allow the emotions to flow through the body so that it doesn't get stuck.

00:12:51.220 It's about the space you can hold to let the raw emotion climb and hit a peak in the messiest way,

00:12:58.960 in the nastiest way, and whatever that needs to look like, and just kind of be okay. All right.

00:13:04.180 I see you there. I'm going to meet you there. And then ride that wave out. So when I say I want men

00:13:09.440 to be vulnerable, I don't mean I want you to be a full bitch all the time. Cause that there's a line,

00:13:17.760 there's a line. I want, I do want a masculine man. I do want someone to say, Hey, I got this.

00:13:23.880 There's a time and a place, but there's also a time and a place for the other side. And I think

00:13:28.260 that when you can hold that space and honor that in lack of judgment, lack of anything other than

00:13:32.940 just, Hey, I got you. I think that's where magic can happen. But where I get my backup is when people

00:13:39.320 say, don't be vulnerable. Cause that to me is like that. And I say American because I think of the

00:13:46.480 Bible belt, when I think of this, I think of that, like Southern, like boys don't cry. It's like,

00:13:51.040 well, no, we're human beings. The only difference is, is, you know, there's differences biologically.

00:13:56.880 Obviously I know what a woman is, but let that shit fly. Because when you let it out,

00:14:03.940 you can be clear headed. You can feel. And when you feel, you can heal. And when you heal,

00:14:07.800 you can become a better person. So I don't want people to be like this whole liberal left side,

00:14:13.700 blue hair, men can be women, chest feeding bullshit. I want a man that's strong enough

00:14:19.320 to say, I'm in it. I'm in it right now. And it fucking sucks. And I don't know what to do with

00:14:24.560 it. That's that that's vulnerability to me. That's raw to me. That's real human to me.

00:14:29.560 Yeah. And, and I think I agree with, with most of that. You know, I would say that I think where I

00:14:34.400 take issue, and this is not by any means, anything that you said, but I hear this societally

00:14:39.280 is just to be quote unquote vulnerability for the sake of being vulnerable. And what ends up

00:14:45.400 happening with a lot of guys is they're like, oh, okay, I guess I'm supposed to share all my shit.

00:14:49.720 And then they do with the wrong person or the wrong people. And then it gets thrown back in their face.

00:14:54.280 And then they completely shut down and disengage from all humanity altogether with other people,

00:14:59.380 including the women that are closest to them in their lives.

00:15:02.760 And I don't disagree with that. And I want to make sure that you know that because there are not

00:15:09.420 everyone is going to be a great person. I mean, I see the world. I see that the younger generation

00:15:14.940 and part of the problem is, in my opinion, those women grew up without solid dads. Those women grew

00:15:22.020 up with mothers who berated their husbands. Those women, you know, you, you watch from learning. You

00:15:29.260 don't watch from listening. You watch from examples. So if you have an example where your mother treated

00:15:35.580 your father X, Y, and Z, or did X, Y, and Z, you're going to have that perception that that is how the

00:15:41.820 relationships are supposed to be in your life. But if you can step back for a second and say, okay,

00:15:46.820 and evaluate logically, this is where men definitely nail it on the head. I'm very much more of an emotional

00:15:53.020 intuition type. Um, but when they're able to say like, okay, I can trust you because I would rather

00:16:00.400 you take the time to see if you can trust me before you open up. But some people are hurting so much.

00:16:08.480 They're so desperate for community. They're struggling that they just let it out to anyone.

00:16:12.620 And I do believe there is a, what a right way to do that in a right person, but not everybody can find

00:16:18.560 it. And it does come back to bite people. And then you deal with the, you know, that, that what's

00:16:24.740 that word that, that, that male, uh, you know, cisgender, like keyboard warrior, just hate female

00:16:34.100 hating thing. And I, when those men approached me, I very quickly correct them that I populate the

00:16:40.040 earth. So lower your tone because I'm not going to do that. Yeah. I, I think, you know, I,

00:16:48.300 I, I, again, I'm just going back to what I've seen. Well, I'll say it this way. Culture and

00:16:53.940 especially social media has rewarded people for crying because the barista at Starbucks had a hard

00:17:01.660 day because her boss yelled at her. I'm like, okay. And then she'll say, or they'll say, um, I'm,

00:17:08.000 I'm being, but I'm being vulnerable. No, you're not. You're just whining. And it's not like,

00:17:12.820 who are you talking to? Nobody cares. Go talk to your boss about your work environment. Go talk to

00:17:20.040 your significant other about your hard day. Like, don't come cry to me or random strangers on the

00:17:24.980 internet about it. And by the way, just because you're quote unquote being vulnerable, or at least

00:17:29.100 that's what you say, you're not being virtuous. That actually, to me is weakness. Yes. And you're

00:17:34.700 not wrong, right? There's, again, this is that the container, the time and the space. That's what it

00:17:40.860 is. I see the same videos. You and I follow a lot of the same people. We know a lot of the same people

00:17:45.780 and I watch it and I'm kind of grossed out, you know, because we have this belief that being

00:17:52.560 vulnerable means that it's okay to, to be an asshole. It's okay to have an, you know, to be

00:17:58.420 negative and weak minded. I'm good with people being, having moments of weakness. I can't speak. I

00:18:05.860 spent a decade of suicidality after deployment. Like I understand when the mind takes over,

00:18:12.820 you know, it's not like, think your way to happiness. Like it's not, that's the reality.

00:18:16.780 There's a lot of so much work, so much effort. And it takes getting up every day and deciding I'm

00:18:23.040 going to be either a statistic or I'm going to thrive. And so there is a time and a place,

00:18:27.960 but this younger generation, the societal generation we're seeing here on social media,

00:18:32.160 like I watched a video on Starbucks the other day and I was just wanting to punch myself square in

00:18:36.740 the face. If somebody was complaining that, you know, the lines were long and I worked an eight

00:18:41.000 hour a day with two 15 minute breaks. I'm like, cool. Do you want to talk about two hours sleep

00:18:45.760 outside the wire getting shot at? What am I going to say? The Taliban keeps shooting at me. I just

00:18:50.680 don't know what I'm doing. Like shut up and carry on. I'm done with it. Yeah. And look, I try,

00:18:56.780 I've been here before where I've been critical of comparing woes like, Oh, you don't have it hard

00:19:02.700 because these people have it hard. And I, I'm actually really cautious of doing that because I

00:19:07.700 don't know people's circumstances. But what I do believe is that we collectively have created a bunch

00:19:14.280 of soft cry babies through the way that they're raised through a lack of fatherhood in their home,

00:19:19.140 uh, where the long line at, at, at Starbucks, you have a job and you're having to pour liquid into a

00:19:26.520 cup. Like that's not difficult, but you think it is because your life experience hasn't created any

00:19:33.200 meaningful hardship for you. That's a societal issue. Yes. A hundred percent. And that's like why

00:19:38.820 I do what I do, because if you can keep people doing small, difficult things daily, that stuff doesn't

00:19:46.720 affect you. If you can get somebody into a cold punch for three minutes a day, their life changes.

00:19:51.080 If you can get somebody to be radically uncomfortable in a, in a setting in breathwork

00:19:56.280 and you snap them open and they go, I didn't know I could do that. It shows them their own strength and

00:20:01.240 their own power. And it shows them their own resilience. So I'm a big believer in doing incredibly

00:20:06.740 difficult things at least once a day. And if you can do that, you can cultivate a, a strength that you

00:20:13.700 didn't know existed that can help you carry through stupid things like this. And to be honest, look,

00:20:20.260 I worked at Tim Hortons for two years of my life when I was a teenager, it sucked. And yes, lines are

00:20:25.180 long and you get through these modes of like stupid people, but then like get a different job.

00:20:31.360 Well, and that's the point, you know, I worked at Burger King and it's not a career. It's a first job.

00:20:36.160 And I realized that it's a stepping stone for sure. You know, I am really curious though. You know,

00:20:42.880 I know you work with a lot of men, predominantly men within your, your coaching and clientele.

00:20:47.000 Um, but I'm curious from a woman's perspective, what, what, what is it that women want out of a

00:20:53.340 man when it comes to this vulnerability? Because here, here's what happens. And I've seen this

00:20:59.340 personally. And I've also seen this with thousands and thousands of men that I've worked with

00:21:03.800 is their, their wife or their girlfriend, whoever will say, Hey, I want you to open up. I want you

00:21:09.500 to be vulnerable. I want you to share. I want you to tell me, you know, about your hardships. And so

00:21:14.300 guys like, okay. And so he does. And then she'll bring it up six months later, or she'll change her

00:21:22.280 behavior and think less of that guy. I actually don't think that a lot of women really know what

00:21:29.780 exactly. They, they say they want it, but when they get it, they're like, Whoa, that's gross.

00:21:35.340 And they're repelled by it. So I'm going to be careful not to generalize and say that not every

00:21:41.860 woman's like, right. I know, you know, that I'm not, I know, you know, that I'm just saying it,

00:21:46.320 you know, not every woman's going to be like that. Um, I'm a big believer. And I know a lot of women

00:21:51.600 like this and, you know, I know you don't have a lot of women on, but I do suggest if you ever want to

00:21:56.440 have a very interesting conversation around things like this, Alana Stott's going to be your

00:22:02.260 money. Alana Stott. She's married to Dean Stott, the British SBS, uh, ex British SBS. He has a

00:22:09.660 Netflix series called Netflix, Netflix series called, uh, toughest forces on earth. He's a very

00:22:15.800 good friend of mine. Anyway, I digress. The reason I bring it up is because when you have a woman who's

00:22:20.520 been through some shit, that doesn't matter. And the reason I say that is because Alana has written

00:22:26.080 about it in her book. And when I read it, she buckled me because when I learned what she went

00:22:30.700 through as a child and what she had to come out of and how she was able to build her, she got punched

00:22:35.080 in the face at a bank by a middle Eastern dude in Scotland and just had to stand there and take it

00:22:40.440 because he had oil money. And they like, do you know what I mean? Like when you get somebody who's

00:22:45.780 been through real hardship, those women can handle the vulnerability. And we ask for the vulnerability

00:22:52.460 because what it actually does is it allows us to process our stuff at the same time, right?

00:23:00.560 So her people, her people and people who have been through things can help others heal. And they may

00:23:06.780 think they're doing it for others, but really they're healing themselves at the same time. So it's the type

00:23:11.780 of woman, you know, and, and I'm not going to judge women for not having hard lives or people for not

00:23:17.060 having a traumatic childhoods or experiences, but I will tell you when you go through something

00:23:22.660 difficult and you're able to come out the other side, what I ask for when I say, I want somebody

00:23:29.160 vulnerable is I want someone to be raw with me the way I am with you. If I'm going to give you the

00:23:35.440 depths, I want the depths, not because I want to judge it, not because I want to hoard it and use it,

00:23:42.500 but because I want the depth connection. I want deeper than a cookie sheet. Don't waste my fucking

00:23:48.440 time. Whether you're a client or a partner, tell me your shit because I can guarantee there's nothing

00:23:54.620 you're going to say. That's going to shock me personally at this point in my life, but not all

00:23:58.980 the women are like that. So when they ask for it, they don't always know what they're asking for.

00:24:05.340 And I think there's a, that naivety that's in there and then they get shocked with it and they don't

00:24:11.820 know how to handle it because not everybody. And you know, this most people do not have the tools

00:24:17.200 at all. And of course, of course, right. I, you know, I, I did hear one thing and this made a lot

00:24:23.560 of sense to me because I, this has been something that's on my mind because it is a popular topic.

00:24:27.740 This idea of vulnerability. Um, I was talking with a good friend of mine, do you know, Connor

00:24:32.180 Beaton with man talks? Why do I know that name? He's, he's done really well. He wrote a book called

00:24:37.520 men's work and he talks a lot about this, but he talks about it from a, uh, I would say more of a

00:24:43.280 masculine frame that isn't real common with guys who seem again, I'm, I'm overgeneralizing. I know,

00:24:49.600 but guys who seem to generally talk about these vulnerable vulnerability type subjects tend to be

00:24:55.000 a little bit more feminine in the way they approach. So you take a masculine guy and he's like,

00:24:58.840 I don't even resonate with that, but Connor does a really good job. And what he said, and this was

00:25:03.800 interesting on what your take on it is he said, what women are asking. And again, we're generalizing,

00:25:08.180 I know, but when women are asking for vulnerability, what they really want is to know that you're aware

00:25:16.020 of your own deficiencies and you either have a plan for addressing it or you currently are working

00:25:22.040 through it yourself. Yeah, absolutely. God damn lootly. I think that's brilliant. So I'm going to read

00:25:27.940 that book. So remind me at the end, please. Cause TBI brain. Um, I think what's beautiful

00:25:33.500 about that statement is I want to know that you're going to try. I just want to know that

00:25:41.280 you're going to try. I don't need you to have the plan yet. That's the thing. So that's where

00:25:45.360 I'll differ a little, I'll kind of a little on that. I want you to tell me because I know I have

00:25:50.960 the tools and I know we can come up with a plan together. If you don't have the plan, that's okay.

00:25:58.580 But I want to know that you're going to work for it. I want to know that you're going to put the

00:26:02.320 effort in. I want to know that you're even on the days that it hurts and you feel like your chest

00:26:06.520 is caving in, you know, that this will pass and you will keep working. Cause that to me is the

00:26:12.880 marker, right? That grit, that drive. If I see you in your life doing X, Y, and Z at work, I see a lot.

00:26:18.680 If I see you doing a lackluster life where you have no passion for sport, no passion for yourself,

00:26:23.300 no passion for anything. I don't think you're going to be passionate about healing yourself.

00:26:28.300 And, and anyone can say, well, not everybody needs to heal themselves. And then my response

00:26:32.600 is, okay, go look in the mirror then, you know, there's use your term, grow, heal, whatever,

00:26:38.080 grow, heal, move, change, evolve, don't care. But I want to see growth and growth. Like just

00:26:44.760 personally for me as a female is very attractive to me. People who want to continue to strive,

00:26:51.020 not settle. And I'm not saying the hustle culture, you need to write a million books. You need to get

00:26:56.100 out there. Whatever your niches, whatever you love, whether that's gardening, whether that's

00:27:02.460 woodworking, whether that's building houses, whether that's being a stay at home father, Ryan,

00:27:07.640 I want to see you love what you do. That's it. So show me that you've got drive. You've got a passion

00:27:15.360 for something. And I can fuck with that. But when you're just kind of like, I'm not doing great.

00:27:20.580 I don't want to talk about it. Cause I don't want you to, you know, judge me. Then I'm like,

00:27:23.860 snap out of it. We can do this, but I can't do this if you're not going to try.

00:27:30.660 Right. Well, and I think where a lot of men get themselves into trouble is they habitually

00:27:34.980 complain about their woes. Let's say work, for example, I got passed over for a promotion or

00:27:39.840 I lost my job today, or I'm going to start this business and they never start it.

00:27:44.080 So then they go to their wife and they're like, Hey hon, this is what's going on. And she's like,

00:27:47.860 Oh my gosh, again, we're doing this again. And he's like, see,

00:27:50.120 but really what happened is it's not her fault. It's your fault because all you're doing now is

00:27:56.660 you're just whining and she's tired of your whining. She actually wants to see you improve

00:28:00.560 and do something about the thing you're complaining about.

00:28:03.980 And see, that's the thing with me. If you're going to complain about it, I'm here for it. Let's go.

00:28:09.660 Now, what are we going to do about it? Right? Because, you know, my friend taught me,

00:28:13.140 this is one of my favorite things, uh, in my coaching practice. I use the hell out of it. I just love it.

00:28:17.860 It's so simple. Okay. Awareness is the finish line period. Once you are aware, you get to decide,

00:28:27.400 am I going to stay the same or do something about it? Because if you tell me you're going to stay

00:28:32.080 the same and die a slow death, that's me. That's the stuff that sets me off. That's that masculine

00:28:38.060 side of me. That's going to come out and go, get it together. And I'm not talking, let me be very

00:28:43.120 careful. I'm not talking about mental health because there is no get it together button.

00:28:47.560 And that takes as long as it takes, as long as you're trying and using the tools and you're

00:28:51.500 putting the effort in that takes as long as it takes. It took me a decade to come out of the

00:28:56.500 PTSD stupor that I was in. So I'm not talking about mental health, but if you're saying,

00:29:01.880 I want to start a business and I hear you say it over and over and over, I'm going to look you in

00:29:06.300 the face and go, you know what you need to do. Stop it. If you're not going to do it,

00:29:10.160 stop talking about it. Period.

00:29:12.440 I think, I think most women won't do what you just said. I think they'll feel the way

00:29:17.380 you feel, but the problem is they won't express it. And then in five years, they're like, I want

00:29:22.880 a divorce. Yeah. Because, right. Because they don't express it. And so that lack of communication,

00:29:28.300 and I'm not putting that on women or men, I'm just saying this is the general dynamic.

00:29:32.460 It's just lack of communication. People live in a place of fear, Ryan, you know this, right? So

00:29:37.440 you can look at this fear is just false evidence appearing real. Or I have this, I have this new

00:29:44.300 one that I really love. I wrote it down. I, it clicked for me. Please give me a second. I want

00:29:48.700 to pull it up because I think it was, it was like, it's really simple, but what is it? Oh,

00:29:53.860 face everything and rise. You, again, awareness, you get to decide, am I going to let fear literally

00:30:02.520 stop me from living the life I know that I can have? Or can I look that in the face and

00:30:08.560 go, I'm going to face everything and rise. And when I do, I know there will be light, but

00:30:15.480 I can understand that there are people who don't have community, don't have support, don't

00:30:20.020 have the tools, and they feel like they're in this helpless despair. I get that. So before

00:30:26.960 you feel like you can't do it anymore, that's why you need to reach out to a friend. That's

00:30:32.020 why you need to have the hard conversation. I don't feel like I can do this right now,

00:30:34.880 man. Sometimes you just need somebody who's been through it to grab your hand in the dark

00:30:39.340 and pull you out the other side. That's why I work with men, by the way. That's why I

00:30:44.640 work with very few females. I love, I love working with women, but it's got to be a, it's

00:30:49.480 got to be a type of woman. The right ratio. Okay. Got it. Yep. The type. It's not about

00:30:54.820 the ratio. It's more about the type, right? I need the, I understand you're not always

00:30:58.980 going to be self-motivated. That's my job is to keep you there. But with the men, every

00:31:03.760 time I've had a problem, when I was at my wits end, when I was going off of all the drugs

00:31:09.180 and I was doing the last kick at the can thing, I had a ranger reach out and grab my hand in

00:31:14.600 the dark and say, I got you. But I also had those same rangers surround me and put me in

00:31:21.620 the middle of a circle and go, we've got you, you be what you need to be. But they also were

00:31:26.520 willing to show me their hurt side. So I knew I wasn't a burden or I wasn't being weak or I wasn't

00:31:32.540 being a womanly about things. They get, I got you. You need to let it out, let it out. We're going

00:31:38.060 to show you our sides of ourselves too. And that's how you bond. Right? So it's definitely an

00:31:43.300 interesting dynamic that I work within. But if we can change people's perspectives around what it

00:31:49.840 means to trust a woman, to heal with a woman, because I do believe that men groups like you

00:31:57.060 have, uh, and like the, and the way that you do with your, your community is necessary. But I also

00:32:01.920 think, and I'd be curious, and I'd also be super open to this at some point, if you'd ever have me

00:32:06.460 to come in and sit with those groups and show them that not every female will leave, abandon,

00:32:15.340 hurt, judge, and crack their ass open with breathwork in a way that they've never seen before.

00:32:20.840 So if that is the case, then really it just comes down to a man's ability to discern,

00:32:26.100 is this a woman who's going to have my back if I'm this way? Or is this a woman who's going to

00:32:30.220 resent and hold it against me? So what, what two things, what would a man look for in a woman

00:32:37.700 in order to find a partner like that? And number two, if he's already in a relationship that he's

00:32:44.100 not just going to abandon, and maybe she's not like this, how then does he begin to have more of

00:32:51.460 these real, and to use your word, raw conversations with his wife? Yeah. So I always suggest, uh, if you

00:32:57.880 feel like you're not ready to have that conversation on your own, because maybe each other is reactive

00:33:03.420 or you see some things where you're like, Oh, I don't know if that's going to be received. Well,

00:33:07.520 I always suggest when people are fearful of saying the hard thing that their body already knows,

00:33:12.840 but their mouth won't say, write it down, write it down. And then when you're alone, I want you to

00:33:18.080 look yourself in the mirror and read it because I want you to see how you're going to respond to the

00:33:22.940 actual words when they hit your ears, how your tone is going to shift. When you say

00:33:27.840 it out loud, because a lot of people won't say the hard thing because they're so fearful of the

00:33:33.220 response. So we have to remove the expectation. You have to walk in with an open, with open eyes. If

00:33:40.660 you have somebody that you're with and you want to have the hard conversation, write it down, say it

00:33:45.280 out loud, because then you might actually go, Oh, maybe I actually don't feel that way. I just never

00:33:49.940 heard it out loud. I just never processed it. It's just another way of processing. Now, if you're

00:33:55.160 looking for a woman, like that, you feel like, you know, maybe I could trust her. Maybe I could do

00:33:59.660 this. I'm a big, like, um, what's the word? Small flags, tiny little flags. I pay attention to

00:34:06.060 everything. I'm a bit of a psychopath that way. So details matter. Details matter. So if I catch you

00:34:12.620 speaking to, if I catch a woman speaking to somebody else disrespectfully, like a waiter or like at a

00:34:19.000 cashier, I watch how you treat people when you think people aren't watching, those are the flags

00:34:24.940 you watch for. Cause that shows character when the, when the brain isn't conscious, that's the

00:34:29.060 subliminal, you know, subconscious checking out at Walmart, you know, it's, if you're not thinking

00:34:34.140 about that. So I always say, pay attention to that. Also pay attention to how that person treats

00:34:39.340 themselves. What is their self-talk? How do they speak to themselves? Because if they speak to

00:34:43.760 themselves negatively, it's not like it can't get better, but it's also means that that person is

00:34:49.480 okay with living in that, um, negative state enough. And maybe they just don't have the tools.

00:34:55.120 Maybe they just don't know how yet. That's it. Right. You know, those are the things that are

00:34:59.540 big for me is the, is the subconscious stuff. It's the stuff when people think you're not watching or

00:35:04.380 people think that you're not paying attention. That's the stuff you're going to notice and how she

00:35:08.640 holds space for other people, whether it's her children, her parents, her community. Does she

00:35:16.140 have community? Does she talk to other women? Does she digest just negative? And I mean this like

00:35:22.680 real housewives shit, like just drama, just like the TV shows she watches, like, because you are the

00:35:29.340 sum, right? In every way that comes down to what you absorb with your ears, your eyes, the people.

00:35:35.140 So if she enjoys drama, watch what she watches, watch what she listens to that stuff. Those are

00:35:42.100 the flags, man, that we can really see somebody's identity in. And so pay attention to that. Write

00:35:48.460 it down. Say the hard things out loud. See how you feel. If it happens where you want to have that

00:35:53.520 conversation with her, I always start with this. Hey, this might be uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable

00:36:00.980 saying it, but I cannot hold things in anymore. So I'm about to say something and know that it only

00:36:08.800 comes from a place of love, regardless how it sounds. And I would ask that instead of reacting,

00:36:14.920 you just sit with it for a second and let's communicate it. If you can't do that on your own,

00:36:20.800 bring a counselor in, bring a, bring a coach in to just sit there because that person is going to

00:36:27.460 observe behaviors. You're not going to catch on to. All right, guys, I'm going to break away from

00:36:33.160 the conversation very quickly. Uh, by now you've heard all about the iron council, but coming from

00:36:37.820 me, it's easy to see why I may be a bit biased when it comes to our exclusive brotherhood, the iron

00:36:43.860 council. So allow me to share with you what a few of our members are saying about the iron council.

00:36:51.980 This one comes from Chris Kroom. He says the iron council is better and cheaper than therapy. The

00:36:57.540 council represents multiple opportunities to network, build yourself and develop a better path.

00:37:02.160 The council when used correctly is the step you never knew you needed to get you headed towards

00:37:08.680 a better tomorrow. Karen Gillan says the iron council is a great environment for men to connect

00:37:13.540 with other growth oriented men who have good values. It's a faith, family, and fitness immersed

00:37:19.060 environment. It's a resource for men to gradually improve their lives holistically with a 1% better

00:37:24.360 everyday approach towards a stronger personal identity. It tangibly enriches the lives of men

00:37:30.980 in ways they wouldn't otherwise expect. It's a great foundational multifaceted place for men to pursue

00:37:36.760 the path of personal growth. So again, that comes from our fellow brothers, Chris and Karen

00:37:42.680 guys, we're going to be hosting a preview call on Monday, September 30th. So it's coming

00:37:48.800 up. Actually, excuse me, it just came out. So if you missed it, you can't check it out anymore.

00:37:57.040 But we're leaving it open for 24 hours. So this is your very last day to get signed up for the iron

00:38:02.560 council. So if you want to learn more, you want to band with us, then head to orderman.com slash iron

00:38:08.180 council. We're going to shut it down at midnight tonight as of the release of this podcast,

00:38:13.360 Tuesday, October 1st. So again, we're shutting it down. We're closing it out and we will not open

00:38:19.620 again for the remainder of the year. Check it out at orderman.com slash iron council. For now,

00:38:25.280 let me get back to it with Kelsey. I think there's another thing too. And we often hear this advice

00:38:30.820 and that, that all is really good advice. And we often hear, uh, men anyways, when they're

00:38:35.880 communicating with their wife or their wife is communicating with, with them that you don't

00:38:40.340 need to solve their problems, right? They just, you talked about holding space. You don't need to

00:38:44.100 solve their problems. She's going to vent or she's going to talk about her day or some of her

00:38:48.120 frustrations or, you know, whatever's going on with her family, whatever. It could be anything.

00:38:52.360 Yeah. Like she doesn't need you to solve it. And I would actually suggest the same is true. It

00:38:57.440 should be true when a man communicates with his, his wife. Like, I don't need you to solve anything.

00:39:03.400 I just need to explain it to you. I need to tell you my plan. And, uh, I've already got it figured out

00:39:08.440 in my head. Like, I'm just going to do it. I just want you to know what's going on. So you know why

00:39:13.220 at the dinner table, I'm a little distant tonight than I normally am. But see, that's all that takes,

00:39:18.880 Ryan is communication, uncomfortable communication. Hey, this is not about you. I'm in my head on this

00:39:26.180 right now. I'm a little wrapped up when I seem distant. It's not you that right there gives your

00:39:32.080 spouse a cue. Oh, okay. Just going to let this ride. And, and like you said, it's not about solving

00:39:38.160 the problem. That's where people go wrong. I've been guilty of it myself. Like I have plenty of

00:39:43.500 friends who I do plant medicine with and we'll come out and they'll look at me and look and

00:39:48.920 they'll say something. And I'll go, now what I do is I go coaching or listening. Yeah. Right.

00:39:55.620 I'll give you both. You want me to listen? I'm here. You want advice? Happy to do that too.

00:40:04.260 You have to communicate what you need. Yeah. I think, um, have you, you've heard the term

00:40:10.020 covert contracts? Have you heard of that? No. So a covert contract would be, um, in this scenario,

00:40:17.860 I invite you on my podcast and I've got this idea of what I want the conversation to be. And I've also

00:40:24.020 got an idea of how I want you to show up, but I don't communicate it with you. And then I get pissed

00:40:31.320 because you didn't show up the way that I had in my head and in my mind about how this podcast would

00:40:36.260 go. Unmet, unsaid expectation. Same. Yep. Same, same concept. And I think that's where we get

00:40:43.720 ourselves into trouble is, you know, as a man, you might want to communicate with your boss or your

00:40:49.440 child or your significant other. And you say, you have this whole thing planned out. I'm going to tell

00:40:53.760 her this. She's going to say this. Uh, we're, we're going to agree. Everything's going to be

00:40:57.500 wonderful. And then we're going to go make love tonight. And then you, you don't share any of the

00:41:03.740 expectations. You don't tell her what you're looking for and you just blurt out whatever you

00:41:07.760 want to blurt out. And then she responds poorly. And you're like, see, she didn't do what I wanted

00:41:13.220 her to do because you didn't tell her what you wanted. And I'm not saying tell her what she needs

00:41:17.900 to do, but at least communicate what you might be looking for out of the dialogue. Yes. Yes.

00:41:23.940 And my thing would be again, write it down, get the scrambled mind. That is the biggest tool we have

00:41:31.400 when the overwhelm hits, the hard conversations are there. You're not sure how you're going to

00:41:35.920 respond. You're not sure how you're going to feel, pull the threads down and write it down,

00:41:41.420 put it in front of you so you can perceive it differently. If you want her to respond a certain

00:41:46.640 way, say, Hey, I know what I'm about to say is hard or uncomfortable. I just ask that if you're

00:41:53.260 going to respond, just think about it before you say something, because you, you know, you can't

00:42:00.080 take words back. They do cut. And once they're out, they're out. And if you have these expectations,

00:42:05.420 that's the other thing. Expectations do nothing but set you up for failure because our minds play

00:42:12.260 tricks. So why not just go into the conversation saying, I'm going to say this and whatever comes,

00:42:19.140 that's okay. Yeah. I was just writing that down. Cause when you were talking about expectations,

00:42:25.980 cause they do, they just make people miserable. I mean, I think it's important to have expectations,

00:42:30.960 a personal performance, but I don't, I think outside of that, we really have to let go of the

00:42:36.780 expectations of other people and external sources, even your success. You cannot predict it. You cannot

00:42:43.540 completely control it. You can only control the way that you show up and you should have a high

00:42:47.700 expectation for that, but very few things outside of it. Well, and that's the other thing too,

00:42:52.940 right? It's that's that personal growth conversation. That's that, what do I want in

00:42:58.000 this life and how do I best give it to myself? And then how do I best meet the bar that I set for

00:43:02.200 myself? Right? So I have a, I have insanely, some would say completely unhealthy expectations for

00:43:08.840 myself, completely irrational. The shit I want to achieve and the things I want to do when I tell other

00:43:15.280 people, they look at me and go, you're a little insane. And I go, no, no, no, no, no, because it's

00:43:20.280 only delusional until it works. And that's what it takes. It takes crazy. It takes mad. It takes

00:43:25.980 delusional, but if you can do it right, it can work, but you have to be willing to be different

00:43:32.320 and uncomfortable. You have to be willing to say the hard thing. And not everybody is going to be

00:43:37.220 built for that. So when it comes to your own expectations, all that I ever ask of people is if

00:43:42.220 your bar is here, move it to here because people will meet you where you're at and you will do the

00:43:48.400 same. That's the beautiful part. You, if you set the bar high for you, you will either, you will

00:43:55.040 either hit it and surpass it, or that will show you that you just don't have the drive you thought

00:44:00.440 you have. And if you want the drive you thought you could have, that comes down to your habits and

00:44:05.240 your routine and what you absorb. So the way I work in my practice is this, I'm going to set the bar

00:44:11.140 higher high. And it's not to like, say to give you some unrealistic expectation. 99% of the time,

00:44:19.180 Ryan, people meet me at that bar. It takes them maybe three months or six months, but I'll be damned

00:44:24.340 if I've ever had a client not meet it. Or, or the alternative is they just won't run with you.

00:44:31.080 And that's okay too. Cause they're not interested in what you're interested in. That's okay. I'm very

00:44:35.540 hard to keep up with. So if you, if you want to keep up, you're welcome to come along. But I,

00:44:41.200 this is one of my favorite sayings in the whole wide world. And I do hope one day I get to sit

00:44:44.320 down with him and just tell him how much this has affected my life. Legitimately. I

00:44:47.640 Snoop Dogg says the best thing in the whole wide world. I'm not exaggerating. It is not my job to come

00:44:55.040 down to you. It is your job to meet me up here. If you want to hang with me, I run fast. I run hot.

00:45:01.840 I run a lot all the time, but the difference is I'm good with that now. So I'm going this way.

00:45:09.000 You want to come do the work. Yeah. I like that. All right. So, so to get back to this conversation

00:45:15.820 about vulnerability, you know, the, the terms I've used, and again, I think we're very much

00:45:19.860 in alignment on it. Um, we were just, uh, the communication styles that that's what it was.

00:45:25.780 Right. And that's why I thought this conversation would be good to have because a lot of the times

00:45:30.540 I find that when people disagree with me, they're disagreeing with some small thing. Maybe it's

00:45:36.360 one thing that I said out of a hundred that they disagree with. And so they just throw it all out

00:45:40.880 or, and I do that too, to other people, by the way. Um, or they don't like my word choice. So my word

00:45:45.720 choice as opposed to vulnerability is simply this guys, just be honest and humble. That's it. Yep.

00:45:53.800 If, if you get home and your wife says, Hey, you know, how was your day? You don't need to say

00:46:00.320 good. If it wasn't good. Right. You say, Hey, it was hard because, uh, we just lost, uh, you know,

00:46:06.780 a huge client. And so I'm a little distracted and that was tough, but our marketing's on point.

00:46:12.160 And I feel like we'll be able to, cause here's the issue. At some point, somebody is going to say,

00:46:16.500 well, damn, how many hard days are you going to have before you do anything about it?

00:46:19.940 Well, here's the thing though, right? The hard days are dictated by either your mental health,

00:46:25.020 your work, your lack of effort, or your effort that is going unseen. So you have to remember

00:46:30.160 that when somebody says, you know, I'm having a hard day, I'm having a hard day, I'm having a hard

00:46:33.820 day. What is the reasoning? Because based on the reasoning, whether it's lack of accountability

00:46:38.180 or lack of actually doing anything about it, or it's, I'm in something different and I'm struggling

00:46:44.380 around the mental health aspect of it, which is making me struggle with the work aspect of it.

00:46:49.340 So you have to continue to dive to the root of the problem. And that's why when I sign contracts

00:46:54.600 with people, I make them sign a six month contract because I know by month three, like clockwork,

00:47:00.460 you're going to let me in and we're going to dive to the stuff that really is the root.

00:47:04.560 And then all of this will make sense. But if you don't dive all the way down, like if you're unhappy

00:47:09.780 at work, okay, you're unhappy at work. Let's talk about it. Why are you unhappy at work? Well,

00:47:13.400 maybe I'm feeling unfulfilled. Maybe I don't have passion for it. Okay. Well, why don't you feel fulfilled?

00:47:17.440 Well, because I used to be told all the time that I'll never be good enough. Oh, okay. Let's go

00:47:22.380 there. Who told you that? Mom told me that. Interesting. Why'd mom tell you that? Well,

00:47:26.360 because mom struggled with her life. Oh, so her people, her people. Oh, I get it. So when you can

00:47:31.480 get to where something comes from, that's where the magic really happens, but you have to be willing

00:47:36.940 because what you just said, that's vulnerability. But really what that is, is just incredible

00:47:41.120 communication tools. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. I like what you're saying about the six month thing.

00:47:46.380 It's like the analogy I was thinking of, as you said, that is, you know, taking a half of,

00:47:50.480 of a round of your antibiotics, you know, for a bacterial infection, right? It's like,

00:47:55.280 I guess, you know, the first three or four days it like is good, but if you don't finish the

00:47:59.760 treatment, it's just going to come back and create habitual problems in your health.

00:48:04.640 Yeah. And, and I got to be completely transparent with you. I have a hundred percent resign rate and

00:48:09.180 it's not because people are not getting what they need. It's because once I show them that they have a

00:48:13.460 person that will be right there and I'm there and that they have a spot that replaces the,

00:48:18.680 the psychiatry that replaces the medication that replaces the drinking that replaces it.

00:48:23.720 And when you put them into a community that's doing that same work, they go, ah, I'm not alone.

00:48:28.700 And they want to have that spot where it's like, it doesn't matter what you're going to come at me.

00:48:33.220 Cause I meet my clients weekly. Right? So this isn't like, Oh, I see you once every week. No,

00:48:37.800 every day, every like Wednesday at this time, that's your slot. You can text me whenever you need me.

00:48:42.540 I get, I'll answer you within a 24 hour period, but I only work with X amount of clients.

00:48:47.020 So I make sure that I can fill that cup when it's needed for them, but I can also be really hard on

00:48:54.460 them when it's needed to, Hey, you're slipping, you're slipping. And I see it because I do this

00:48:58.900 thing where we have a shared notes with every client. Okay. This works incredibly well. When people

00:49:05.860 leave their coaches, a lot of times they do their thing for the day or two, and then they have a

00:49:10.640 tendency to fall. So what I do is we have shared notes and I have a client for each one and it's

00:49:16.940 got the things you need to check on that box every day. If I see you not participating there,

00:49:22.700 you know it. Cause I'm gonna pick up the phone and say, do your shit. You're the one paying me.

00:49:28.080 You're spending money. If you're not going to participate, either am I. And you bet your ass

00:49:33.460 the second they have that shared note, they know I'm watching when they feel accountable

00:49:38.380 to more than just themselves for the moment. If that's what they need to get them going again,

00:49:44.100 then that's what we do. And then eventually they go, Hey, I don't want to do that stuff.

00:49:47.760 I actually want to start looking at my childhood. Can we do that? Or, Hey, I want to actually,

00:49:51.400 can you help me? I'm trying to write a book or, Hey, I'm working on this business and I'm not really

00:49:55.540 sure where to start, you know? So it, it always, they always say, I want to start here. And then

00:50:00.980 we end up evolving into all of these things. And what comes out of it is it's okay to just say the

00:50:06.920 hard thing. You just need the right container. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're doing coaching, but it

00:50:12.520 sounds like a lot of therapy as well. And I don't, I don't think you're a licensed therapist by any

00:50:17.460 means, but it sounds like you're doing a lot of mental therapy. Yeah. But I do it because I have

00:50:22.200 every resource in the book, you know, it's right. And I'm not done. I'm not saying you shouldn't by

00:50:26.840 any means. I'm just saying it looks, it feels like that's what you're doing. Sometimes. I mean,

00:50:30.700 you know, cause I would call it more of like a less of therapy and more just holding space because I

00:50:35.800 think I've been with, I've had the same psychiatrist since Afghanistan. So it was 2011. And you know,

00:50:42.420 the one thing he taught me is I would never say like, just like reverberate problems. I would go,

00:50:48.140 what's happening to my brain right now. And why is my body reacting like this? And he would go,

00:50:51.200 your hippocampus is feeling this way. And then your frontal lobe is going to do this. And when

00:50:54.880 you rewire and fire that, this is going to happen to your sympathetic nervous system. And so I've

00:50:59.740 gotten an education since 2011 in everything I feel like I'm handling. And if that's the other

00:51:06.860 thing, I feel like I, my strength is if I don't know the answer or have the tool, I'm going to tell

00:51:12.920 you what I don't know. And then I'm going to go, give me 24 hours. I'm gonna get you that answer.

00:51:16.740 And I'm gonna get you that person. And if I can't take you further, I'm going to drop

00:51:21.060 you with someone. I'm never going to leave you or abandon you, but I will transition you to

00:51:25.320 somebody who has that specialty. The approach you're talking about is interesting, which is,

00:51:30.600 you know, physiologically, like what is happening between my thoughts and my response? Because I

00:51:36.160 think, I mean, clearly there's a big stigma around men's mental health and part of my problem. And I

00:51:42.400 have a therapist by the way, but I also am guarded at times. And I am hesitant, resistant as well.

00:51:51.780 And I think a lot of the times it's because I feel like simply just talking about my problems. And you,

00:51:57.000 I think alluded to this a little bit, it really just ends up

00:52:00.340 accentuating or highlighting the problems when maybe it really wasn't that big a deal. And now

00:52:07.320 I've blown it out of proportion. I've made it a big element of my life or I've turned other little

00:52:11.520 nonsensical little annoyances into these big life problems that I really didn't have that issue

00:52:17.980 before I came in here to deal with something else. But here's the thing about that though,

00:52:22.140 too, because that's a two-way street, right? So if you don't acknowledge it, you don't see it,

00:52:27.760 feel it, hear it all the way through it, that's going to stick. So if you, if you kind of go,

00:52:35.500 I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. That's ridiculous. It's not that

00:52:37.880 bad. It's not that bad. And you downplay it. All that you're telling your body is the alarm bells

00:52:42.320 that are going off. Like, so, uh, a good friend of mine, Dr. John Deloney told me this, and I love

00:52:47.040 him so deeply for this. If you don't listen to the alarm bells, they're going to get louder and it can

00:52:53.580 be uncomfortable with, and this is why I would never go and get my PhD to be honest with you. This is

00:52:59.140 why I would never go into traditional psychology or psychiatry because I'm allowed to dance in a

00:53:05.180 completely different way. I'm allowed to say things in a completely different way.

00:53:08.580 Yeah. And what I love about that though, is if your alarm bells are going off, that's all they

00:53:14.240 are. They're alarm bells. But if you don't talk about it, sometimes those alarm bells will just

00:53:18.860 get louder and you can come up with a plan and say, Hey, I'm saying this. It feels like I'm just

00:53:24.680 making it worse. It feels like I'm adding fuel to the fire. I don't love that. So instead of just me

00:53:29.720 talking about it, can you give me a tool to process it? Can you give me a journaling exercise

00:53:35.460 or a grounding practice or a, you know, if I go run this amount, when's the endorphins going to kick

00:53:41.200 in? Like, where can I think about this in a spot that's not going to spiral me? Right. And you just

00:53:46.720 need to sometimes stop the negative feedback loop and go, okay, okay, okay. I hear it. I hear it. You

00:53:51.540 don't love it. You feel like it's getting worse. So here's what we're going to do about it. Now try that

00:53:55.620 insert that, right? Stop the negative feedback loop and go, when you feel that, I want you to do

00:54:00.160 this. Tell me how that works. And then you hit it again. And we have the conversation again.

00:54:04.880 And then we try the tool. You'll know if that's the right tool or if you have to shift that a little

00:54:10.000 bit. I mean, I like that approach and that's what my therapist does now, but it's taken a while to

00:54:14.660 find that person. And it's a man that I resonate deeply with that we're friends to some degree,

00:54:19.900 you know, casual friends, even outside of the office. But, um, yeah, I like that point because

00:54:25.600 one thing I've got in the past and this is, I hate, I hate this stuff is there'll be an issue.

00:54:31.160 And then the therapist will say, well, how does that make you feel? Well, like shit, that's why

00:54:35.580 I'm bringing it up. Right. Well, yeah, but like, I already know I feel crappy about it. What do I

00:54:40.720 do about it? Like, I don't need you to help me figure out that this is not a good feeling. I get that.

00:54:46.500 What do I do to get over this? So that's going to be the tricky part, right? Because you have

00:54:52.780 psychiatry and psychologists nowadays who are growing up in this really, I mean, you've heard

00:54:56.720 Jordan and I talk about, you've heard him talk about it. They're growing up in this very, you

00:55:00.460 know, strong men make that a da make that a da. Like I get it. We have weak people. We have weak

00:55:05.980 people trying to heal people. We have people who have never used psychedelics, trying to teach people

00:55:09.880 and integrate medicine with people who have never experienced it. You know? So I won't talk on

00:55:14.840 something I haven't gone through. I won't help you on something I feel like I don't have the tools for.

00:55:18.640 And I will not try to educate you or do anything that you don't want to do, but I will push you to

00:55:25.300 the line and I will say, you can jump. It's safe to jump, but I'm not going to do it for you.

00:55:32.060 And so psychiatry and psychology right now is going through this massive burnout bottleneck phase.

00:55:37.360 That's why coaching is exploding. My thing to people is there's a million coaches online.

00:55:42.540 There's a million coaches everywhere. There's everybody's a coach now, right? So I, I

00:55:48.260 always say to people, my biggest resume, like in terms of showing you that I can do what I do is

00:55:53.700 that book right there. Yeah. That, that is, that is the rawest, hellish, just, I tell people don't

00:56:01.980 read it before bed. It'll make you sad. It will. No, I'm serious. I was just in Halifax. I'm like,

00:56:07.340 don't read it. Don't read it before bed. And, and it's, but it's honest. And what it, what it

00:56:11.660 shows is that you can genuinely go to hell. And if you decide that you don't want to self-select,

00:56:21.320 this is how it can be done. It's not perfect. It's not pretty. It's not, you know, this beautiful,

00:56:28.060 uh, journey, but it is a journey. And it's a journey that shows that I don't quit. And I also

00:56:34.260 don't quit on my people, which means I'm not going to quit on you. So you can be an asshole. You can say

00:56:38.160 it doesn't work. We'll just keep shifting until we click and it will. And it does every time as

00:56:43.480 long as the person is action oriented and wants to try. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, let's pivot a

00:56:50.840 little bit. Let's pivot to, to the next topic I wanted to address, which is feminism. This is

00:56:55.200 the other one that we debated and I'll, I'll give you my frame first. And then I want to hear your

00:57:00.560 frame. Okay. Love it. My, my frame is this. And I think this is the way most, not most, a lot of women

00:57:07.600 who are self-proclaimed feminists would describe it as equal opportunity for women, which I don't

00:57:15.720 think there's very many people there are, I'm sure, but I don't think there's very many people

00:57:19.020 who would disagree with that. I don't the way that I view it today in today's modern world is not that

00:57:26.440 it's this fight for equal rights and equal views and equal positions and titles. It's actually become

00:57:34.040 from my perspective, a fight against men. So not for equality, but against men. So when I say,

00:57:42.660 I think the one that you really took issue with was something like, I probably said feminism or

00:57:47.960 feminine. Yeah. Feminism is, I probably said disgusting. That's probably the word I used.

00:57:52.460 Yeah. I could, I could be wrong, but that's modern. And that's fair. That is fair. But the problem is

00:57:59.160 some of these things, these words, they get hijacked and then they're just used. And that's

00:58:04.500 why I think, yes, modern feminism is a plague on society and it pits men and women against each

00:58:11.860 other, which is a horrible, horrible place to be. All division divides. It's no different if it's

00:58:17.580 gender or politics or whatever. Uh, I'm going to make a controversial statement here. Most people

00:58:23.820 are stupid, dude. Most people don't. I would fall into that category. They're just, they're not

00:58:30.860 self-aware. They're groupthink. They're tribal. We're all tribal. We're all tribal to an extent,

00:58:36.860 right? Because obviously you left on the planes, you die. I get it. We have that innate. I want to

00:58:42.360 fit in. I want to fit in, but people will override their own intuition. They will override their own

00:58:47.160 belief systems, their own character, their own integrity, all just to be what somebody else wants them

00:58:51.720 to be so that they can feel like they fit. People don't love themselves. People don't care for

00:58:56.860 themselves. People think that others will fix them. People rely on spouses to fix them, to make them

00:59:02.320 happy. That's why you get this modern feminism because they hate themselves, dude. They live in a

00:59:09.240 victim mentality. They've been told since jump that women, you make less money. You'll never climb

00:59:15.160 ladders. You'll never have a seat at the table. Kick the fucking door in and make your own table.

00:59:19.840 Then I'm kind of over it. I'm a rant for a sec. I'm over it. Let me tell you why I'm over it.

00:59:25.940 You and I both know the space I'm in. You and I both know the people I know you and I both know

00:59:32.240 that is a God damn absolute shame. The amount of subscribers I have on my YouTube. It's disgusting.

00:59:38.820 It's fucking criminal at this point with the guest list I have, but that happens because when women

00:59:44.920 like me speak the way I speak, it hurts men's egos. It makes other men feel small and insignificant

00:59:51.700 because what I do, right, I'm just the mirror. That's it.

00:59:55.260 But what about what you're saying would make, because I don't feel that way and we're friends,

00:59:59.220 like what about what you're saying would make people feel that way?

01:00:02.600 You're different. You're secure in yourself. I don't trigger the shit out of you. I don't make

01:00:08.640 you feel uncomfortable when I use a deeper tone. I don't make you feel uncomfortable when I swear.

01:00:14.040 I don't make you feel uncomfortable because you're secure in yourself.

01:00:17.580 The people I make feel uncomfortable and the women I make feel uncomfortable are the women

01:00:21.460 don't love themselves. The women that aren't going to do the things, the women that haven't

01:00:25.080 done what I do. So they either make themselves feel less than around me, which makes me sad

01:00:29.720 because I will accept them for whatever they've gone through. But what else makes me sad is the

01:00:35.240 women that sit there and tear other women down. These people, like in the service, dude,

01:00:41.820 people will step on you to get to the next step. And it is no different than the podcast

01:00:47.560 world. It is no different than the business world. It is the mindset that there is, you

01:00:51.920 know, what is it? That there's only room for one. There's not. It's rising tides. But if you

01:00:58.080 look at me and you feel threatened, you need to ask yourself, what about me makes you tickle

01:01:02.420 inside? Cause it ain't me. Cause the way you feel about me is a perception of you. That has

01:01:07.640 nothing to do with me. And so with feminism in general, I believe the bad bitches that

01:01:14.300 like literally were like, I want to have a credit card. I want to be able to buy my own

01:01:19.200 house. I don't need to have a man to walk around with me. I want to be able to have the freedom

01:01:24.540 to do that. That those women, the ones that got the right to vote, those are the women.

01:01:30.100 Those are the real deals. The ones now, the ones that wear the, the pussy hats at the conventions

01:01:36.660 and they're like, we're losing our rights. And you know what? Don't be the liability,

01:01:42.400 be the asset. If you suck at your job, get better. You want more money? Fucking ask for

01:01:47.480 it. But you live in a state of fear. You live in a state of victim mentality. Dude, I could

01:01:52.900 have stayed in that. I could have been like, oh, I got injured in Afghanistan. My life is

01:01:57.480 over. I was in a woman in a job I shouldn't have been in. I thought that. And I did that.

01:02:01.960 I did that. And then I woke the fuck up and said, I'm so sorry. No, no, no.

01:02:06.940 It's not how you were raised, girl. That is not who you are. Step it up. But I needed other people

01:02:12.660 around me to remind me who the fuck I was just for a sec till I got it back together. And now my job

01:02:19.680 is to tell other women, like, I'm so sorry. And this is where Alana's money on this. This is where

01:02:24.380 she's money on this. You are not what happened to you. You are what you do with it. So you get to

01:02:33.100 decide, right? You get to decide. But again, that's the awareness piece. Most people will

01:02:38.260 avoid and put the bear their head in the sand. So the feminists of this day are victims in their

01:02:44.200 eyes of an oppressed system. When you have one of the most ill-equipped, uneducated, lack

01:02:51.320 of training, lack of experience VPs I've ever seen. Somehow she made it up there. So are you

01:02:58.040 kidding me? The person that pretends she's black when she's Indian, she made it to the

01:03:03.180 highest office in your land. If she can do it with the level of incompetence that spews

01:03:08.720 out of her face, I'm sorry, sweetheart. Get your shit together. Try harder. I don't understand

01:03:16.820 it. And if you don't like how it's happening or you don't like how you're being perceived

01:03:19.960 or how you're treated, look yourself in the mirror and ask the hard question. Am I doing

01:03:24.100 anything about it? Am I adding to make it worse? Am I around things that are making me not

01:03:30.100 healthy? And be honest. If you're going to lie to yourself, that's one thing. But I'm

01:03:35.200 not hanging with women that go, oh, I'm the victim. This happened to me. Dude, I have so

01:03:39.840 many women. I'm looking at books sitting right here. Friends of mine who were raped, who went

01:03:45.400 through assault and somehow came out of it stronger. Do you know what I mean? It's like it

01:03:51.900 can make you or it can break you, but you have to decide what you want to do with it

01:03:55.620 because it can be a superpower, but you got to remove that victim mentality, man. And

01:03:59.640 these women nowadays, not all of them, there's a lot of bad bitches out there, but a lot of

01:04:04.760 them, whoo, they're in for a rude awakening. Yeah, I think it's just this victimhood

01:04:09.000 hierarchy. Well, I mean, maybe, you know, the world is going in this position where victimhood

01:04:13.740 is powerful and it's not, but that's, yeah, right. It'll correct. But you know, when people

01:04:19.380 say I'm a woman, so therefore I've been discriminated against or I'm having a hard time, well, everybody

01:04:24.860 is, you know, if, if, if you don't have an education, then are you discriminated against

01:04:30.220 when you're paired up to somebody else? Like, of course there's discrimination. Of course

01:04:36.680 that happens. And it's not always bad either. I think the biggest issue, one of the biggest

01:04:41.620 issues I, I, I take is with this modern feminist movement is that it's, it's marketed as a woman's

01:04:52.360 choice for how she wants to live her life. As long as the woman's choice is go out there and be a boss

01:04:58.300 babe and do everything that the men are doing. And I actually don't have a problem with that. If

01:05:04.740 there's a woman who can do a good as job of a man in a certain role, all the power to her and all the

01:05:10.400 power to an organization or whatever it is, no issue with that. But where I take issue is when

01:05:15.880 the feminists, these modern feminists say it's a woman's choice. And then the woman says, well,

01:05:20.140 you know what? I think I'd like to stay home and raise my kids. And those same feminists will say,

01:05:25.200 Oh, you're being trampled on. Oh, you want to be barefoot and pregnant? Oh, you're going to let

01:05:29.700 your man keep you down. That was her choice. I thought you were about choice, but they're not.

01:05:34.880 It has to fit their narrative in order for it to be right.

01:05:38.700 And that's where we fall into the trap, right? This story we tell ourselves, because we,

01:05:43.960 we are the stories we tell ourselves. So, uh, I'll give you an example. So when I, when we got

01:05:49.180 pregnant with my son, um, I was like, I planned on being a stay at home mom. My mom was a stay at home

01:05:53.660 mom. His mom was a stay at home mom. I had a great, like, I was all about it. Then I had them and I went,

01:05:59.620 Oh no, I am not that woman. And I am a very loving mom and I'm a very present parent, but I also

01:06:07.400 didn't, once I realized that I watched my mom give up all of these things, but to a detriment,

01:06:13.520 not to a positive, I wanted to see my mom when she was doing her things, love something outside

01:06:19.960 of just us. I wanted to see her thrive a little, you know, there'd be days where I'd be like, I know

01:06:25.260 you love doing that. Why don't you go do it? She'd be like, no, it's okay. And I'm like,

01:06:28.860 no, I want to show my son that you can be loving. You can be supportive and you can be a stay at

01:06:35.960 home mom, but you can also like do stuff for yourself. You can also not be feel guilty for

01:06:41.820 going, you know what, this Saturday I'm going hiking. Like, I just want women to understand that

01:06:46.760 it's okay to want more, but it's also okay because more can look like staying home with your babies and

01:06:52.380 having a bunch of chickens and raising them and making healthy food. That is one of the coolest

01:06:56.980 things. Women can do all of it, quote unquote, to an extent, obviously. So decide what sets your soul

01:07:05.320 on fire because when you decide and you're actually happy there, everything and everyone around you

01:07:11.960 feels that love. So whether it's, you want to work, whether you want to stay at home, I support whatever

01:07:18.200 you decide, but the women that judge, that's because they hate themselves. They know they can never do it.

01:07:23.340 They know they don't have it. And it's the mindset of lack, not abundance triggers the shit out of

01:07:28.120 them, man. Yeah. I think that, I think one of the hardest things is, and this is very frustrating to

01:07:33.960 me. And I like what you said about choose. Like if you want to go into the workforce and kick ass and

01:07:39.140 build your empire. Okay. Make sure you find a partner in a man who's on board with that. That

01:07:44.280 might be an issue if he's not. Right. If you want to stay home and raise your kids and build your farm

01:07:50.000 and homestead and all the power to you. I have a problem when I see this narrative peddled that

01:07:56.340 every woman ought to be out in the workforce. And then these women enter the workforce and they go

01:08:01.140 spend their most, uh, you know, child, childbearing and rearing years in the workforce because that's

01:08:07.740 what they were told they're supposed to do. And all of a sudden these women are partners at the law

01:08:12.040 firm and now they're 45, 50 years old. And they're like, well, damn, I kind of want a baby. I kind of

01:08:17.700 want to be a mother. And they've missed that opportunity because they were fed a lie that

01:08:21.980 they have to go do what men do because they're just as good. And doing what a man does, doesn't

01:08:27.980 make you good. What makes you good is fulfilling what it is you want to do to the nth degree.

01:08:35.500 Right. Exactly. So when I have women like that, what I say before you make a decision on whether

01:08:40.900 you want children or not, number one, are you with the person you would have their babies like that?

01:08:45.680 Don't force yourself to have children if it's not the right person. Cause what's the right person?

01:08:49.940 You'll know. I didn't think I'd ever have children, Ryan. But then I met my husband and I was like,

01:08:54.380 I'm having your kids. Like put a baby in me now. Like I would, you know what I mean? Like,

01:08:59.100 no, I'm serious. But like, you'll know you can't force that. But then the women that fall for the

01:09:04.260 lie and the trap, that's because they don't listen to inside. They listened to up here and not in their

01:09:10.120 body. And it's because they don't know how, and it's because they don't know what they want because

01:09:13.480 they don't do the self inquiry, uh, exercises. They've been told something so long. They think

01:09:17.640 they have to believe it. They don't actually ask themselves and look themselves in the mirror,

01:09:21.120 dead in the eyes. What do I want? Does this feel right? Does this feel good? Because if you want

01:09:26.420 to go get after it and you're like, you know what? Children aren't for me. Okay, cool. But also remember

01:09:32.320 that we do have a clock. And so I encourage people, if you're going to decide to either not have kids or

01:09:39.620 have kids, whether it's by yourself with a human or adoption or whatever your method is,

01:09:45.500 be all the way in. Go sit and talk to someone first. Because if you're like, I'm not sure,

01:09:51.360 well, go pull it apart. Go ask the hard questions. How would my life change? What would that look like?

01:09:56.340 Do I want it to look like that? Would I be happy in that? If I couldn't do this type of work, would I

01:10:01.360 be sad? Okay, so now if I'm draining from this cup, will this take from that? Will I be the same person?

01:10:06.760 We're never the same after kids. But you can decide how you respond, how you react. But you

01:10:13.620 can only do that by asking the hard question. Most women just do what they're told or how they've

01:10:19.660 been raised. And that doesn't always jive as an adult. So you have to ask yourself. I ask myself

01:10:26.240 this stuff like every six months to a year, I check in with me. I go, hey, how's it going? How did

01:10:33.520 that feel? Has that been good? Have you been present? Where have you been lacking? Where can

01:10:37.020 you do better? And I just constantly check in with myself because I'm going to change because we're

01:10:43.760 supposed to change. And so with kids and women, it's like you want to do that. Cool. But this idea

01:10:51.080 that we all have to have this lifestyle, dude, my life is not for everybody. People see my calendar

01:10:58.300 and cry sometimes. Yeah. You've shared part of it with me. I'm like, oh my gosh, that sounds

01:11:03.440 miserable. But it's different for everybody. But that's what sets my soul on fire. Right. That's

01:11:09.580 why I'm so amped up when you see me doing everything because I love what I do. But I also love being with

01:11:16.080 my son. And I also love Lego. And I love going in the woods with him and, you know, building fires and

01:11:22.480 foraging. I love all aspects. But I understand that I didn't know that before. I didn't know

01:11:29.480 myself before. I'm learning who I am. And who I am is going to change. So what she needs is going to be

01:11:35.360 different today than is going to be tomorrow than is going to be the next day. So I just observe it.

01:11:39.940 I don't absorb it. I see it for what it is logically. And then I allow the emotions to go through.

01:11:45.580 And when you let them go, they're like the waves. They're going to come. They're going to spike.

01:11:49.140 And then they're going to come right back down. You have to give yourself permission to ask the

01:11:53.040 hard questions. Yeah, I think this comes down to something you were saying earlier about this

01:11:57.680 just level of awareness, just being aware, being able to communicate, ask yourself tough questions,

01:12:01.980 and then make your choices as appropriate. Kelsey, I want to end with this. And maybe I should have

01:12:07.420 started the conversation. When we agreed to do this podcast, you had sent me a text and you said

01:12:14.120 something like, I can't remember exactly what it was. You're like, what are we doing here?

01:12:18.740 Because I think you had some fear about me setting you up and that's not what I wanted at all. I knew

01:12:23.860 we would agree on a lot and maybe disagree on some things, but you, you, it sounds like you had an

01:12:28.680 experience where you were felt teed up is what it sounds like. So help me understand to the degree

01:12:36.220 that you feel comfortable sharing. Yeah, man. Look, I've been down this road before I've been canceled

01:12:42.000 by somebody I thought I could trust. Right. Um, you can make whatever excuse you want. It is what it is.

01:12:48.220 Um, I come out the other side of it though. And I came out fucking kicking and screaming because I

01:12:53.180 don't really like when my characters attacked. Um, this is what happens in our job, man. We are the

01:12:59.780 type that are willing to put it all on the line and say the hard things. And we also know that that

01:13:04.100 comes with hate. Um, that comes with malice that comes with feelings that comes with jealousy that

01:13:10.000 comes with a, you're in the seat. I want to be in, but I'm not willing to do the work. So how fucking

01:13:14.800 dare you? Cause that's all that was by the way. Right. I know the person that that was that sent

01:13:19.560 the email. Like I know, I know the one who started the pages. Like I know. And that's what makes me

01:13:25.320 laugh. Cause I'm like, I know you dude. And I know what your life is like, and you're miserable

01:13:30.940 and you're a drunk and that ain't my problem. And your perception of me means fuck all. Because if

01:13:37.140 you don't have my phone number, your opinion does not matter to me because you don't know me.

01:13:42.320 That's the hard truth. That's where that masculine side has to kick in because I've been

01:13:47.220 forced sometimes into situations where I thought I could be. And you saw it. I don't know if you ever

01:13:54.020 heard the first episode vulnerable to the point where I was disassociating and I was hyperventilating

01:14:00.120 and I was giving everything I had, because if I'm going to do this work and I'm going to get in front

01:14:05.320 of a microphone, I damn well better have something to say. That's going to teach somebody something

01:14:09.260 because I didn't go through this hell for nothing. I didn't, I didn't do this for nothing. I didn't plan

01:14:14.940 on doing this either with it, but that's what it turned into. So the least I could do was show up

01:14:20.940 and give everything I got. And what came was good for a minute until people who believed they

01:14:29.360 deserved to be where I was got all upset about it. That has nothing to do with me, Ryan. That ain't

01:14:35.860 about me. That's about your own feelings about yourself, your own lack. That's your own drive

01:14:44.860 problem. That's your own you didn't heal. That's your own I've done the work and you haven't. I'm just

01:14:50.040 the mirror. And like my buddy George taught me with that same thing I said before, it's just the

01:14:54.100 pink elephant, man. If I make you feel some type of way, it's because I'm aggravating the thing in

01:14:59.280 you that you're not. It's the thing that's not healed, right? My job is to be the mirror. So if I

01:15:04.660 set you off, ask yourself why is it something I'm actually saying that's offensive that you're like,

01:15:09.700 you're truly I'm offended or is it shit? I want to do that, but I didn't do the work to get there.

01:15:16.880 I didn't heal. I didn't put myself out there. I didn't write a book. I didn't put myself to be

01:15:22.600 judged. I'm okay with being judged now. The best that was, let's say this, as hard as that was when

01:15:30.120 that happened. And I mean, spiral city, son. I mean, law speaking gigs, company crash, blacklist

01:15:37.000 things for a hot minute. When that happened, that was bad. That put me on the ground. My kid had to go

01:15:46.720 somewhere else. I couldn't function. I couldn't move. I couldn't breathe. I had no recourse. I had

01:15:52.260 nothing I could do. Um, and I had to make a decision. Do I say something out loud or do I shut

01:16:00.140 my mouth, gather all of my evidence, do everything I can call every British person I know, get written

01:16:07.220 statements, get videos, get photos, do everything I can, which another one should never have had to do in

01:16:12.320 the first place. Uh, if I was just given a phone call, let's start there. So lack of accountability

01:16:17.940 showed up, uh, lack of hard conversation showed up. The difference was I shut my mouth and I said,

01:16:25.960 nope, there's going to come a time. This is going to come around. I'm going to feel it. I'm going to

01:16:30.600 heal it. We're going to deal with it. And then I went and did some medicine and I sat on it.

01:16:34.940 And I said, you know what? There's a lesson here. There's a lesson here where I am going is going

01:16:41.440 to require very thick skin, the thickest. So this was your first opportunity to get kicked in the

01:16:49.400 teeth by people you thought you could trust. Now you learn something. You read people different.

01:16:54.220 You want to know their motives. You want to understand. That's why I said to you, what do you

01:16:58.220 want to talk about? What do you want to talk about? But I think that's fair. Lived experience dictates,

01:17:03.460 right? And then you can decide if you want to do it or not. That's fair. Exactly. So I, um,

01:17:10.560 so yeah, I, I'm actually glad I went through it because it prepared me for when Peterson came out.

01:17:15.980 It prepared me for, you know, when Lex came out, it prepared me for when I started doing these other

01:17:20.920 shows. And hopefully when I do Joe one day, it's going to, I'm not going to be, you know, touched by

01:17:25.620 it because I realized a long time ago, people online don't know me. They know, and I show everything.

01:17:32.160 I'm not like a show the positive things. I'll show you when it sucks. I'm going to show you the

01:17:37.160 hurt because that's where the growth lies. Everybody goes through it. Stop pretending you

01:17:43.220 don't. So it taught me and everything I've gone through has been a lesson. Even if I have to give

01:17:48.380 it a minute and kind of plot backwards, it made me stronger. And ultimately I knew if it was my

01:17:53.880 character, I'm, I'm got the nickname of Thomas the tank for a reason. I don't quit ever. So if you

01:18:03.440 think you can play, just know I'm a psychopath when it comes to my character and I play too. Um,

01:18:10.880 you don't have to be some special operator. Just remember my old job means I can reach you from 40 K

01:18:17.140 to be near you. Well, Kelsey, this has been a good conversation. I'm glad we did this. Um,

01:18:23.280 and it's been a long time in the works anyways, and we've been friends. And so I appreciate the

01:18:27.400 work you do and the messages you're putting out. They're not always convenient. We'll say it that

01:18:31.280 way. And I know that you and I will have more disagreements in the future for sure, but we'll

01:18:36.880 continue to talk and have these conversations. Tell the guys where to connect with you, learn more

01:18:40.600 about what you're doing, including your book as well. Yeah, for sure. So first off, um, anytime,

01:18:46.540 whatever you need, whatever tool I have, whoever I have access to, it is yours. I appreciate that.

01:18:52.520 Likewise. Yeah. Um, I, I just want to see you thrive, man. Um, I do at one point, I do want to come to one

01:18:59.760 of your groups. I do. I really genuinely will make the trip. I do want to. Um, secondly, you know,

01:19:06.780 everything's on social media. Uh, I'm definitely banned on Instagram. It's been taken away a couple

01:19:11.160 of times. So I suggest if you want to either listen to me rant or talk to the majority of my

01:19:15.920 guests, which are men, uh, the Kelsey Sharon perspective, we just rebranded the show. It's

01:19:20.300 been going for four years. Um, you can find me at Kelsey underscore Sharon on Instagram. My book is

01:19:25.560 available. It's with Simon and Schuster. So it's available Barnes and Noble on Amazon. I always just

01:19:30.300 ask if you're going to get it, can you leave a review? Because there is not a lot of female combat

01:19:34.480 books and there's not a lot of those. So, um, my goal is to eventually hit the list with that

01:19:39.140 just because it's like a personal thing I got going on. Um, and then most importantly,

01:19:44.540 if you need help, man, ask if you want to work together, I've got a website. It's Kelsey

01:19:49.360 Sharon.com. You can send an inquiry. I get on a call with you, but I'm not for everyone and that's

01:19:55.400 okay. But I am for the people that are ready to work, that are ready to do the stuff that are

01:20:00.060 want to change, whether it's their profession, whether they want to become a better athlete,

01:20:03.960 or they just need a space to learn that not all women are going to fucking abandon you and hurt

01:20:09.960 you. And so I'm here and whatever I got, I'm happy to help. You just have to ask for it. And

01:20:16.360 that's the hardest thing you'll ever do. But I promise you when you do it, you'll feel a lot

01:20:19.700 better. So thank you for the opportunity. I never thought this was going to happen, but it's been an

01:20:23.960 honor. Yeah. I've enjoyed it too. So we'll keep in touch. Obviously I'll sync everything up and I

01:20:28.360 appreciate your time. Thanks dude. There you go, man. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Like I

01:20:34.820 said, to begin with a lot different than we've done in the past, but again, it is my hope that

01:20:39.180 you enjoyed this conversation, that it resonated with you. And then you're walking away with some

01:20:44.100 new information. Please make sure to connect with Kelsey on the gram or social media, wherever you're

01:20:48.360 doing your social media thing. As you know, as I said earlier, we're closing down the iron council

01:20:53.120 tonight at 12 o'clock midnight. So if you want to band with us, then you're going to have to go to

01:20:58.480 order man.com slash iron council. Check out a copy of Kelsey's book, brass in unity. See what she's up

01:21:05.480 to tag us, screenshot us, do whatever you can to build and blow this movement up. More men need to

01:21:11.300 know what we're doing and more men need to be banded this mission to reclaim and restore masculinity.

01:21:16.360 Guys, we'll be back tomorrow for our ask me anything with Kip Sorensen until then go out there,

01:21:21.380 take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:21:28.060 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:21:32.660 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - October 01, 2024

KELSI SHEREN ｜ Where Feminism and Vulnerability Go Wrong

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