Order of Man - KIPP SORENSEN ｜ Self-leadership for the New Year

00:00:00.000 Leading others does not begin with a title. It begins with self-leadership. Too many men chase

00:00:06.500 influence and authority and even recognition before they've learned how to lead themselves

00:00:11.240 well. And that's where this whole idea of imposter syndrome creeps in. Of course, you're not as good

00:00:18.260 yet as you could be. Leadership really isn't a destination. It's a discipline. And it's not just

00:00:25.200 tactical application of certain strategies or getting things done. It's service. It's

00:00:31.500 responsibility. It's the pursuit of getting better, whether it's leadership at home with your kids or

00:00:38.020 leadership over your own habits and standards. Guys, today in this episode, we talk with leadership

00:00:43.600 expert Kip Sorensen. We break down the three traps of self-leadership that quietly sabotage men,

00:00:49.500 the victim, the persecutor, and the rescuer, the dark side of influence, how to get your own wishes

00:00:55.880 and desires met, how to be aware of what I've called polite manipulation, and why honoring agency

00:01:03.420 in yourself and others is the key to leading well. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest,

00:01:09.920 embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up

00:01:15.120 one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:22.420 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And

00:01:27.960 after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:34.780 I am Ryan Michler. I'm the host, and I'm also your founder of the Order of Man movement. Glad you're

00:01:40.860 here. Guys, if you've got any value from what we do, and we teach men how to have the skills and

00:01:47.520 the tools and the resources to become the best possible men, they can be fathers, husbands,

00:01:52.940 business owners, community leaders, you name it. And to that end, we have great conversations like

00:01:57.960 the one I have with my good friend, Kip Sorensen. You guys, if you've been listening to the podcast

00:02:02.040 for any amount of time, know Kip. You hear from each and every week, but this week I interview him

00:02:07.560 rather than our just ask me anything. And I think you're going to find some profound wisdom

00:02:11.300 in what we talk about today. Before I get into that, just want to mention my friends over at

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00:03:04.820 use the code order of man. All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest. As I said,

00:03:10.460 you probably know him and his name is Kip Sorensen. He is a leadership expert. He's known for helping

00:03:15.980 individuals and organizations close the gap between their intentions and their execution.

00:03:22.180 And he centers his work on self-leadership, accountability, and building influence in people's

00:03:29.160 lives. He challenges the idea that leadership is just a title or a position. And instead,

00:03:34.800 teaches that real leadership begins with personal ownership and the ability to navigate discomfort

00:03:40.220 and uncertainty and responsibility. So through his coaching, speaking and advisory work with

00:03:45.720 Lead Stronger, Kip equips leaders to identify blind spots. They have confront some self deception and

00:03:53.520 self sabotage and lead with strength and humility. His approach is direct. It's practical. It's grounded

00:04:00.480 in years of working in the corporate environment. And it's not really focused on short term results,

00:04:05.580 which is what most people do. It's built on long term human development. So if he's working with

00:04:11.180 execs or teams or individuals, his message has always remained consistent. Lead yourself well first

00:04:19.320 and everything else follows. Kip, welcome to the Order of Man podcast in a little bit of a different

00:04:26.340 setting. I wanted to interview you because I've learned so much about leadership, self-leadership

00:04:32.100 from you. And I know we've had you on in the past, but man, it was so powerful and we got a lot of

00:04:38.060 great feedback. So I think it's important, especially as we roll into 2026, to talk more about

00:04:42.500 self-leadership, how to maintain discipline, how to stay structured, how to keep your eye on the

00:04:50.020 prize, so to speak. So excited to have this conversation, man. Yeah, I love it. The conversation

00:04:55.400 of leadership is always a powerful one. I always enjoy the conversation. And I have to put this plug.

00:05:02.120 Most poor leaders are poor leaders because they've gotten the authority or the title

00:05:07.480 and they haven't tackled self-leadership first. And they think they can lead others when they

00:05:14.740 haven't led themselves. Why do you think those, because we all have had poor leaders that we're

00:05:20.800 required to follow or be compliant with anyways. Yeah. But why do you think individuals like that

00:05:26.300 are able to progress up the chain of command? Is it just time and service? Is it laziness? Is it,

00:05:34.760 like, what is it about bad leaders that they tend to get promoted at times, not all the time,

00:05:39.720 but at times? Yeah. Well, and, and I don't, here's the funny part, right? Like I would even hold on to

00:05:45.320 the label of they're not bad leaders. They're just, they don't know better. And, and I think most

00:05:50.900 organizations, in fact, the statistic is 82% of organizations, 82% of leaders that get promoted

00:05:58.680 or individuals that get promoted to a leadership role do not have the skills necessary to effectively

00:06:04.320 lead people. It, it, the system's broken. Most organizations, what do we do? I have this great

00:06:10.060 developer. I have this great project manager or this really great sales rep. Let's move them into

00:06:15.160 a leadership role because we think leadership is doing the tactical work really well. So they should

00:06:21.420 be able to help others do the same thing, right? No, it's a drastically different skillset. And thus we

00:06:28.120 keep promoting individuals into positions of authority and leadership that don't belong there or

00:06:34.020 lack the skills. Do you, do you think that anybody can be a leader? Because I, I don't, I don't know.

00:06:41.360 I don't, I don't think that's the case actually. You know, I've thought a lot about this. I think

00:06:45.640 there are some people that have a really good baseline skillset and maybe some of that is nurture.

00:06:52.240 Maybe some of that is nature and, and they can refine it and they can hone it. And then there's other

00:06:57.720 people that I just don't think they'd ever make a great leader. It could be their mindset. It could be

00:07:02.620 their attitude. It could be their upbringing. It could be the way they view just life in general

00:07:08.660 as a pessimist and they'll never be great leaders, but maybe I'm wrong.

00:07:13.380 Yeah. I, this is my thought on this. In fact, this is perfect. Cause I had lunch with, uh, do you

00:07:18.540 remember Mike Schaefer from back in the day? Of course he was a battle team leader in the iron

00:07:22.900 council. We were having lunch yesterday and he brought this up. He said, Kip, I remember when you

00:07:28.860 were talking to me about becoming battle team leader and I had imposter syndrome and I was

00:07:35.780 like, man, no, like other guys can communicate better than me. These other guys have these

00:07:40.860 other skillsets. These, these guys have more experience. They have better titles at work,

00:07:45.920 right? Like all those things. And you said something to me that resonated. He's like, and

00:07:49.940 I didn't appreciate it, but I appreciate it. Now it is the desire and the mindset of leadership

00:07:56.420 matters more than the technical competence. And this is what we're talking about a little

00:08:00.960 bit yesterday. Sometimes we'll learn tactics of leadership, how to effectively communicate.

00:08:06.120 But what we don't address is what, why are you in the role? Why do you care? Why are you

00:08:11.940 here to prop yourself up, to build, build yourself up, to stroke your ego? Are you here to serve?

00:08:17.340 Is it rooted in developing other people? And to your point, if someone's intent in leadership

00:08:24.260 is to put themselves on a pedestal where they're higher and better than others, then they're not

00:08:31.000 fit for leadership and no training is going to get them fit for it because that is their mindset by

00:08:37.600 which they see the role. And that's a, as you know, shifting people's mindset, that's very difficult

00:08:43.080 to do. Now, is it possible? Sure, but it's very voluntary. It's very within the realm of their control

00:08:49.500 and very difficult to do in corporate settings. So to your point, can you teach leadership tactics?

00:08:55.560 Absolutely. Can you shift someone's mindset so they have the right intent around leadership?

00:09:00.760 Very difficult to do. And if someone doesn't have that, you can't train that out of them.

00:09:06.140 Yeah. And I think that's nature. Like, I think that that has been developed over decades of a person's

00:09:12.880 life through their experiences, through their culture, through their upbringing, through the

00:09:17.880 conditioning, their parents programmed into them. You know, I agree. I think that people can overcome

00:09:23.120 that. I've had negative mindsets, never anything that I think was catastrophic or completely destructive,

00:09:28.220 but I've certainly changed my mindset on certain elements. I do want to go back to something you

00:09:33.740 said. I had made a post the other day about the term imposter syndrome. And I said something like,

00:09:38.740 it's not real. It's just some fake thing that people made up to justify their own insecurities.

00:09:45.020 And I had a lot of people agree. And I had some people disagree. They're like, well, you're,

00:09:49.580 and it was all respectful, but they said, well, you're mischaracterizing imposter syndrome. It's

00:09:54.020 the feeling that you're not good enough. You're not worthy enough. That's stupid. Like, I don't know

00:09:59.060 how else to say that. Don't, don't like, just don't have it. That's the only thing you can do.

00:10:05.400 Yeah. You're not, of course you're not as good as you could be period. It's like, why do people get so

00:10:12.460 hung up on this imposter syndrome thing? I think it's just a clever little buzzword that just kind

00:10:17.400 of pisses me off now. Cause it's overused. Yeah. Here's the deal. Uh, we have to accept the idea

00:10:25.100 that most people operate from the position of looking good and avoiding looking bad in what they

00:10:31.020 do. It drives how we dress. It drives how we talk. It drives the accent that we inherit throughout

00:10:37.400 our lives. It determines the car that we have the home. Like, and anyone that says, Oh, I don't care

00:10:43.540 what people think you're lying to yourself. You absolutely do. Right? Like we all operate and

00:10:48.700 imposter syndromes in that it's that heightened focus of, I care too much about what other people

00:10:54.400 think. And if there's one lesson, I learned this from you, whether it's directly or indirectly over

00:10:59.840 the years of doing the podcast with you, but you mentioned this and I've latched onto it and I,

00:11:04.920 and I'll just share it in a story. I remember, I don't know, it's been a couple of years. I had

00:11:09.820 to do this keynote presentation. I was nervous, right? And what am I nervous about really

00:11:15.180 about what people think about me? That's what I'm nervous about. It's very self-centered.

00:11:21.220 I'm nervous about looking good. I don't want to mess up. I care about what people think. It's all

00:11:26.120 internally focused. And I remember sitting backstage, getting ready for this keynote. And I thought,

00:11:32.180 stop. It's not about you, Kip. It's about the message. It's about the, the, me getting a message

00:11:42.080 across that impacts people in a way to, for their betterment. Stop focusing on you. That's not why

00:11:47.760 I'm here. And we lose ourselves in a greater calling. And that's what leaders do, right? A leader in a

00:11:54.320 position where they're trying to prove that they're worthy of the position, what are they going to do?

00:11:58.400 constantly practice kind of authoritative approach, right? Because they're trying to validate that

00:12:04.140 they belong there and that, that, that they're, they're a good leader and that they're accepted.

00:12:08.980 But if I let go of that and I say, you know, no, my job here is to create an environment where people

00:12:16.300 are winning, where they're growing, where they're achieving, and I lose myself in it, then you become

00:12:22.200 a great leader. And, and hopefully everyone listening to this is like, oh, well, I'm not in a position

00:12:26.780 leadership. No, no. We're all in positions of leadership. The example I just gave, you can

00:12:31.640 apply that to parenting. If your parenting style is, I want respect, I'm a good parent. And you're

00:12:37.040 trying to prove yourself that you're some great parent and you've lost the point of raising children

00:12:43.060 that will grow into adults that are learning and growing, that are, have fulfillment in their life.

00:12:48.660 If you, if you lose sight of that, you'll make about parenting about you. You'll make it about how

00:12:53.560 you look and everything, but your children. Right. And so it's the, it's a shift of why we're in the

00:12:59.800 role. That is interesting. Yeah. I think about that with parents and their kids. And I do it too,

00:13:04.880 is like the way you have them dress, for example, is a reflection of you or the way that they play

00:13:09.960 sports. You're like, man, my kid's not athletic. And so that's a reflection on you, but it's not,

00:13:15.980 but you feel like it is. Oh, it totally is. Like even, and we were, before we hit record,

00:13:21.740 we're talking about the importance of self-awareness. It's like, most people don't

00:13:25.200 even know it, right? They're watching Timmy play basketball and they're getting frustrated with

00:13:28.280 Timmy and they're not sure why they're getting frustrated. And if we're aware, we're like,

00:13:34.320 I'm actually frustrated because he sucks. And it makes me look like I'm an incompetent dad.

00:13:40.280 Oh man, that changes things. Right. I remember this with one of my older sons. He was a tough

00:13:45.480 teenager. Uh, bless his heart. But you know what we, I realized my upset with him wasn't so much in

00:13:53.920 his decisions. It was in how he was making me look as a parent, very self-centered. And I was

00:14:03.580 punishing him indirectly, right. For making my life difficult and making me look bad.

00:14:09.460 I mean, but the other side of it is little Timmy could not be good at basketball precisely because

00:14:16.040 you are a bad dad. You don't, you don't go out and play basketball with him. You don't go out and

00:14:22.040 I know it's kind of funny in this context, but even in work, you know, we, we blame employees who

00:14:29.080 aren't producing, but are we looking at ourselves and asking, did I give them the tools? Did I hire

00:14:34.500 them in the right place? Did I give them the training? Did I give them the resources they needed

00:14:38.100 to, to thrive? And if you didn't, then yeah, their performance is a direct reflection of your

00:14:44.520 leadership. So in some cases it's actually true. It is a direct reflection of how you lead.

00:14:49.500 Yeah. And in your example, one of the best things you could do is pour into them to help them win,

00:14:54.660 not double down on their bad and I'm a good leader and I just need to replace them.

00:14:59.900 Hmm. I think that's a good point. Cause I've seen a lot of people just jump to just,

00:15:04.100 hey, firing or letting go or, or like you said, punishing them in some way, uh, even just very

00:15:11.640 covertly instead of saying, Hey, my, I don't want to fire people. I don't want to have resentment

00:15:18.320 towards my kids or, uh, my, my employees. I want them to win. And so the first step is to pour into

00:15:27.160 them. Like you said, to lean into them, to train them, to give them everything they need. And then if

00:15:30.720 they're not cutting it, then you can cut out your kids out of the will or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:35.080 Fire your kids. Exactly. Exactly. Um, yeah, I, I, I don't know. I just get caught up on this

00:15:44.240 imposter syndrome and it seems to me that we play so much emphasis to, this is your point on

00:15:50.040 just like the perception of others without just thinking, yeah, my job is just to improve.

00:15:57.400 That's it. Like, yeah, we're all here to improve. We're here to get better. You know, whether you're,

00:16:03.240 you're building something you'd never built before or growing a business or leading a family or being

00:16:07.540 a husband, you're not an imposter. You're just exactly where you are. That's it. Yeah. Dylan reality.

00:16:14.540 Yeah. Right. Well, let me ask you this. I'm assuming you hate the imposter syndrome because people use

00:16:20.040 the label as a state of being, right? It's like, I don't want to do this thing all it's because I have

00:16:26.240 imposter syndrome period and they use it as like some crutch to not move. And that's what makes

00:16:33.480 it frustrating. Is that, is that why that's frustrating? Totally. Stop crying about not

00:16:38.160 good enough. Of course you're not good enough. You're, you're not dead, which means that you

00:16:43.200 have room for growth. Somebody believed in you. Like somebody, your wife believes in you. Your kids

00:16:49.640 believe in you. Maybe your boss believes in you and promoted you. Maybe a client believes in you.

00:16:53.640 Just shut up and just lean into the faith that they have in you and then improve. Like that's,

00:16:59.880 I know it sounds harsh, but I'm so tired of hearing this cry baby talk about, well, I don't

00:17:05.260 know if I'm good enough. You're not just get better. Absolutely not. That's it. Yeah. What do you

00:17:12.660 think? So it's so exhausting too. I'm just, that's all like, it's just so exhausting that the charade,

00:17:18.820 you know, and we could relate this to jujitsu, right? It's like imposter syndrome and jujitsu

00:17:23.180 would be the guy that's on the mats and he's going, he's doing instruction and then it's open

00:17:29.380 mat, like it's open sparring. And he goes, yeah, you know, I'm not going to roll. And you're like,

00:17:35.040 oh, why not? Imposter syndrome would be, I don't want everyone to know how bad I really am. And I

00:17:40.540 don't want to get tapped by everyone in the class. So I'm just going to sit out. Right. That's,

00:17:45.320 that's the equivalent of imposter syndrome jujitsu, which means what you're not, it's,

00:17:49.720 it's the charade you're walking around, like trying to manage everyone's expectations that

00:17:54.520 you're probably better than you really are. And you have this internal conflict that I actually suck,

00:17:59.540 but I don't want anyone to know that I'm suck. And it's yucky, right? It's like, it's so much better

00:18:04.880 just to go. I'm here. I knew I suck. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm open. Help me learn and just

00:18:14.180 let it go. You know, it's just, it makes me exhausted even thinking about it. I'm like,

00:18:19.500 ah, just let it go and just admit to where you are so you can start improving.

00:18:25.000 Well, but then you have the other conversation, which is vulnerability, right? Which I also hate.

00:18:30.280 It's like, well, the key to overcoming imposter syndrome is just being vulnerable. No, it's,

00:18:35.560 it's not, it's just being honest. I call it honesty. I call it humility. You go into jujitsu and

00:18:42.260 you get paired up with a purple belt or a brown belt or whatever. And yeah, you can just say,

00:18:48.760 Hey, you know what? I'm, this is my sixth class. I'll do my best. I'm going to like,

00:18:53.540 is there something that you think I could work on? Or if you have feedback in real time, let me know.

00:18:58.040 That's not vulnerability. That's just being honest and just acknowledging that you're not as good as

00:19:04.220 you could be or will be. Yeah. And that's it. We put these funny labels on everything to try to,

00:19:09.220 I don't know, justify or make it sound better than it is.

00:19:13.400 Let me ask you this. Cause I feel, I don't know, this is my take on it. But like when I hear

00:19:17.940 that word, I'm like, it's, it's really what I think a lot of us are trying to say is just

00:19:24.300 being authentic or, or have an integrity and, and stop the, the charade, you know, stop the bullshit,

00:19:32.060 the, the faking it and just being you. And we, they call that vulnerable. It's not really,

00:19:37.600 it's just, it's just being honest and authentic with yourself. Right. Or, or having integrity and

00:19:41.860 not lying, you know? Right. Yeah. I think that's what it is, you know? And even when you're talking

00:19:47.980 with, well, I will say this, not everybody's entitled to access to you, emotional access,

00:19:56.000 mental access, you know, physical access, not everybody's entitled to that. And we,

00:19:59.780 we kind of have made light of that in, in regards to social media, because everything is

00:20:05.680 newsworthy to some people. And I do it too. You know, there's things that, you know,

00:20:11.040 I'm building a canoe right now. Oh, this is newsworthy. I'm sharing this stuff, but it's,

00:20:14.520 is it newsworthy? No, probably not. But some people are interested. And so I think we get caught up in

00:20:20.620 believing everything is really, really important to other people. But yeah, this idea of, of like,

00:20:28.800 just being, being vulnerable and just like sharing my truth with the world, that's not what a human

00:20:36.360 being should be doing. Yeah. Share it with the people who are important. So if, if you came home

00:20:42.560 from work and you had a bad day and your wife's like, Hey, are you okay? I think it's completely

00:20:49.820 acceptable to say, you know what, babe? No, I had a really crappy day today. Boss yelled at me,

00:20:54.920 lost a big client, missed the proposal, missed the deadline. And so, yeah, I'm kind of pissed.

00:21:00.180 Like I'm probably going to be a little short tonight. It's not, has nothing to do with you.

00:21:04.600 I'm just in my head a little bit. And you know, I'm sorry ahead of time. That's not vulnerability.

00:21:11.760 That's just being honest with a person who deserves the truth from you.

00:21:15.440 Yeah. I totally feel that. But some people will say, well, you know, it's vulnerability because

00:21:22.940 it makes a man weak. Only if you decide that it makes you weak. I can't think of anything in that

00:21:28.320 sentence I just shared that would make a, that ought to make a man feel weak and inferior. I mean,

00:21:34.600 you're a human being. Of course you have bad days. Of course things don't go well. Of course you miss

00:21:38.980 the deadline. Of course you lose the client. It's part of life. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Where do you

00:21:44.540 think, where do you think men really struggle with, um, self-leadership? Is there, is there one or two

00:21:53.380 things that you see recurring in individuals that because they're not leading themselves well,

00:21:59.940 it translates poorly into leading others well? Absolutely. I think there's, there's three traps

00:22:07.860 that we can get ourselves locked into. Um, the first is that of a victim trap and, and let's beat

00:22:18.580 that up a little bit. And what I'm talking about, I'm not, there are victims in life and then there's

00:22:23.820 having a victim mindset and a victim mindset. The, the red flags that I always use is I'm waiting and

00:22:31.740 hoping for something to change outside my realm of control. So I've given my power over to Ryan

00:22:37.740 right. It's like, you know, maybe our relationship's not doing too well. And so I'm waiting, hoping for

00:22:43.520 Ryan to change. Right. Or I'm blaming others. I'm allocating blame. I'm making excuses. And because

00:22:50.540 of that, what I'm not doing is self-evaluating my role in it. So, so I'm a victim. I've learned,

00:22:59.340 learned helplessness, right? It's, it's everyone else's fault and there's nothing for me to do. And

00:23:05.160 because there's nothing for me to do, right. There's nothing I'm doing wrong. So I just sit

00:23:09.880 back and be a victim of, of my circumstances and my surroundings. And it's very easy to do,

00:23:16.440 right? Years ago, we did the, um, we did an order man event in Maine and we had, I don't know,

00:23:23.760 a hundred guys there. If I, if I remember correctly. And I remember I asked the group,

00:23:28.800 the question, and I didn't even remember the topic that we were talking about, but I asked the group,

00:23:33.140 I said, by a raise of hands, and this is a group of men, how many of you believe that if only your

00:23:40.360 wife would change the, a key number of things and how she showed up in the marriage that you'd have

00:23:45.780 a happier marriage? Every hand goes up, right? It's like, Oh, absolutely. If she would only do

00:23:51.060 these things. Right. And then it's like, all right now out of those hands, how many of you guys have

00:23:55.920 taken action towards resolving that or communicating that with her? Yeah. No, no one. We're all

00:24:02.980 waiting and hoping, right? We're being victims or we're saying that the quality of our marriage

00:24:07.900 is dependent on who her, her. Yeah. So I sit back and wait. So the first is just a victim mindset.

00:24:15.780 And then the others are actually, I think there's an interesting thing about this Kip is that, so I've,

00:24:21.380 I've often thought about it like this. There are actual victims of life. Yeah. You know, you,

00:24:26.640 you get, you get mugged. Um, a business partner takes advantage of you. A brick falls off of the

00:24:33.100 sky when you're a kid lands on your shoulder, you know, like things happen. Yeah. Abused as a child,

00:24:38.240 that's a victim. That's, that's, you're literally by definition, a victim. Yeah. And then there's

00:24:43.400 victim hood and being a victim is a matter of circumstances where I think victim hood is a matter

00:24:52.840 of identity. So now you've identified with it. Now you've made it part of your story. You've,

00:25:00.440 you've made it part of why you can't get it. Your negative story, by the way, why you can't get ahead,

00:25:06.680 why people are out to get you. Why, if it weren't for bad luck, you wouldn't have luck at all.

00:25:11.320 That's the victim hood mentality versus just being a victim. And I think it's important that you

00:25:16.860 acknowledge where you went wrong in a relationship or a professional endeavor or, you know, or, you

00:25:25.280 know, maybe got yourself into a compromising situation. You got mugged. Yeah. You're a victim,

00:25:30.260 but still you can identify what you might have done differently. So, so as not to put yourself in that

00:25:36.140 situation. And that's how you move from being a victim to being able to overcome that and not

00:25:41.540 falling into this victim hood mentality. Yeah. And if you'll notice in what you said,

00:25:47.560 the key element is what are you going to do with it? Got it. It's happened. Someone took advantage

00:25:54.860 of you. You're abused. Got it. Okay. So what are you going to do with it? But if you just drag it on

00:26:01.940 as this, as this code of it, it's almost, and let me pause. Is there a payoff? And that's the other

00:26:10.300 thing we have to get clear on. There is absolutely a payoff, right? If I bring to you like, oh, let

00:26:15.960 me introduce myself. My, my name's Kip. I was raised on a, on with a poor family on a farm. I was

00:26:21.860 abandoned as a child. Like there's some badge of honor that I bring with that story, right? Because

00:26:27.400 what more, most people will do will go, oh, that's so great that you overcame that. And woe was you. And,

00:26:33.860 and I use it and it, and it helps, helps me justify maybe even me playing small in the world, because

00:26:41.360 if that was my upbringing, then what I'm, where I'm at right now is awesome. You know, so I, I don't

00:26:47.100 have to show up any greater than I already have because I've achieved so much, right? Like, trust me,

00:26:52.920 we are all getting payoffs around our victim approach and people feed into it and feel sorry

00:26:58.760 for us. And it helps us validate our, usually our current circumstances quite a bit. And so

00:27:04.060 there's a reason why we do it, right? Yeah. And there has to be otherwise we just, because we're

00:27:08.640 human beings, we wouldn't do it if there wasn't some payoff, but I don't think when people are talking

00:27:12.660 about their past, as far as their achievements go, I don't think they're being playing the victim

00:27:18.580 mentality. I think they're just saying, Hey, I'm proud of what I've overcome. I'm proud of what

00:27:24.740 I've accomplished. I think where it really becomes a problem is somebody says, you know,

00:27:29.700 you, you might say, Hey, how come you missed the deadline? You're like, Oh man, you know,

00:27:33.180 like the boss wouldn't get me my stuff or, or you might say, say, I'm just like, maybe you mess up

00:27:41.080 and you do something stupid. You're like, I'm just a dumb kid from rural Utah. It's just to be expected.

00:27:47.940 Or maybe you're a jerk to your wife and you're like, yeah, my dad was a jerk too, to me. And my

00:27:54.600 mom. So that's where I learned it from. Totally. It's like, okay, that could be true. But again,

00:28:02.920 you're using it as a negative story. You're using it as an excuse for being a loser. And yeah,

00:28:11.620 don't do that. Don't do that. Like use it as a, a moment of triumph, you know, like, Oh yeah,

00:28:18.300 I used to, I was abused when I was a kid and I'm a great father or I grew up in a, in a very,

00:28:24.300 very poor environment. And now, you know, I'm able to provide for my family with this beautiful

00:28:29.640 home, this car and we're out of debt and we're investing like you, that should be a story of

00:28:34.060 triumph, not sorrow and misery. Yeah. And that's why those red flags of that victim hood or that

00:28:39.780 victim mindset is waiting and hoping, making excuses, allocating blame and not progressing

00:28:46.960 in your personal growth. If you're not, if you're not, if you're doing those things, there's some,

00:28:51.120 those are the red flags I use to say, all right, I might be having a victim mindset around this.

00:28:56.540 Absolutely. I know you've got more and you've got two others. I want to get to that, but yeah,

00:29:01.620 if, if you are noticing those red flags, those little trigger warnings that you should pay

00:29:06.280 attention to about you playing the victim game, how do you begin to change that? Like how,

00:29:12.000 yeah. Cause it's easy just to say, well, don't do it. And I tend to use that as an answer. Just stop

00:29:16.820 doing that. But that's easy for me to say, cause I don't feel like I'm a victim of my circumstances.

00:29:23.180 It's easy for me to say imposter syndrome is dumb cause I don't feel that way, but I know people do.

00:29:28.640 So how do you begin to move into a different mindset away from the victim hood mentality you've

00:29:32.620 embraced? Yeah, absolutely. And, and for me, this has worked. Like I, I have, I have literally used

00:29:38.980 this, not this framework because it wasn't a framework for me, right. In those areas of my life back in

00:29:44.460 the day. But when I look back at them, I'm like, yeah, this is actually the process. And the process

00:29:49.360 is first, we have to deal in reality. Is the marriage difficult right now? Yeah. You know what?

00:29:56.380 It sucks. I'm not happy with it. She's not happy. We're struggling. Right. Or, or I'm not good at

00:30:05.220 public speaking or whatever the thing is like, do like, except the circumstance for what it is,

00:30:10.320 this is the case. And then the second part is, then we move to how do I identify my role in it?

00:30:18.260 What's my role in it? And let go of what other people are doing. And, and, and full disclosure,

00:30:23.280 right? Everyone listening is like, does it matter how your wife shows up in the marriage? Absolutely.

00:30:27.620 It does. I'm not saying like, it's all up to you. Right. But what I'm saying is you have a role in it.

00:30:33.520 So where are you, where can you take responsibility? What are you doing correctly?

00:30:40.740 What are you not doing correctly? Right. Like identify your role in, in this circumstance.

00:30:47.160 And then we, we find a solution and we move to action. And the solution might be, Hey, I'm,

00:30:53.680 I'm showing up in a negative way. I'm hotheaded. I, I'm berating my children on a regular basis.

00:30:59.060 Right. Absolutely. That's not, regardless of what my wife does, regardless of my, what my kids do,

00:31:04.320 I shouldn't be doing that. And that's not helping. So you know what? I'm going to change that.

00:31:10.080 I'm going to focus on what's within my realm of control. I'm going to take responsibility for it.

00:31:14.460 My solution moving forward is X, Y, Z, and I start taking action. And what's fascinating about it is

00:31:21.940 we influence each other. And I'm not going to guarantee that like you show up as a great husband and all of

00:31:26.680 that. And your wife's going to be amazing. Right. But the chances are absolutely a lot higher.

00:31:31.560 And most importantly, a life of empowerment is a life of taking ownership. Victims feel disempowered.

00:31:41.900 Why? Because they're a victim. Everything outside of my control is dictating my life. It's,

00:31:48.000 it's a horrible, yucky space to be in. And all the circumstances could be exactly the same.

00:31:54.400 And the only difference is I'm taking action with what's within my realm of control.

00:31:58.960 I'm going to feel a hundred percent better because I, I've addressed the integrity gap

00:32:04.800 of what I know I should be doing. I'm in integrity in spite of all my circumstances.

00:32:11.460 And it creates a good recipe for a possibly improving the circumstance and you influencing

00:32:17.740 other people in a positive way. Gentlemen, I'm going to step away from the conversation with

00:32:22.720 very briefly. Uh, we've got a preview call tomorrow night. So that'd be January 7th at 8 PM Eastern.

00:32:29.460 And it's designed to give you a clear look at what it actually takes to lead yourself and others

00:32:35.380 at a higher level inside of our brotherhood. Now it's not a sales pitch or a motivational rah-rah

00:32:42.280 pep talk. It's a briefing about how the iron council operates and why structure and accountability

00:32:47.900 matter, how accountability and, and even brotherhood will accelerate your growth in ways that

00:32:54.920 isolation never will. Now I say it's not a sales pitch because in this episode, we talk about the

00:33:00.700 importance of agency. I want to pull back the curtain and let you know exactly what you'd be

00:33:05.060 getting yourself into. If you decide to band with us inside the iron council, um, there's going to be a

00:33:11.140 lot of frameworks in there. Uh, there's going to be brotherhood accountability, all the things that

00:33:15.300 we've been doing iron council for 10 years now, taking ownership of marriages and families,

00:33:20.040 not outsourcing responsibility. Um, but you're also going to see how we create measurable progress

00:33:26.480 through our standards, through accountability, through execution, through our battle planning

00:33:32.620 system. We're going to break down how men inside the council are getting their bodies strong,

00:33:37.760 sharpening their minds, improving their finances, and just being better men. So if you're serious

00:33:44.000 about long-term development, not some quick short-term fix or hack your way to success and you're ready

00:33:49.640 to be surrounded by men who expect the best of themselves and the best of you, then join us for

00:33:54.820 our preview call tomorrow night, January 7th, 2026 at 8 PM Eastern. Again, go to theironcouncil.com

00:34:03.640 slash preview, theironcouncil.com slash preview. For now, let's get back to it with Kip.

00:34:08.980 The integrity gap is so interesting too, because I talked to you yesterday about an apology that I

00:34:17.020 had to make. And that was a gap for years. That was a gap that I had in my life that I needed to,

00:34:24.580 that I needed to fix, that I needed to bridge. And what I've noticed every time I need to bridge this

00:34:31.040 integrity gap, it always feels really bad. It's not fun. It's not enjoyable, which is why we don't

00:34:39.980 do it. Because if it was fun, you wouldn't have any integrity issues. But did you feel a hundred

00:34:44.800 percent better once you had the conversation? Once, not even that, once I sent the message,

00:34:51.500 you know, sending the message, I was thinking about sending the message, leading up to sending the

00:34:55.960 message, typing the message out, hitting send, wondering how they were going to respond. That

00:35:00.960 was horrible. And then once I hit send and washed my hands, so to speak, man, just lifted a weight off

00:35:10.260 of my shoulders that had been there. And what's interesting too, I noticed about that circumstances

00:35:17.680 and other circumstances in my life is it lifted a weight that I didn't know was there because I got

00:35:25.300 so accustomed to carrying it around. And I think that's the baggage that we carry. We don't,

00:35:31.300 we don't actually know we're carrying extra baggage. If, if we knew that, then we would set it down,

00:35:37.580 but we don't, we've become so accustomed to it. And we've built our life around making it more

00:35:45.180 manageable to carry. Sometimes that self sedation, sometimes that's built up, pent up frustration and

00:35:53.140 resentment. Sometimes it's just stuffing everything down. And we come up through these little tactics

00:35:59.280 and heuristics in order to manage the weight that we should not be carrying around. And it isn't until

00:36:06.840 you do something and set some of those rocks down, you realize, holy, I didn't even know

00:36:13.460 that was a weight on me. It was, it's, it's very insidious.

00:36:19.140 I, you know, maybe another way or something to add to what you just said, because I just think it's,

00:36:24.220 I don't know, I, for me, it's profound is when we're, when we're out of integrity, right? When

00:36:33.300 there's this integrity gap or we're, we're, we're practicing what I call self-betrayal,

00:36:38.400 it has to be justified. That's what we do as humans. We, we have to justify the action. Otherwise

00:36:45.360 it'll eat at us too much, right? So if I don't address that relationship issue or get complete

00:36:52.680 with that relationship, I have to justify why not? Okay. Well, I'm not because they're a problem

00:36:57.140 and I have to drag that with me always to justify my state of being. And it's not until I take ownership

00:37:05.040 of it, that I can let that go. This is why you find adults in their twenties, thirties, and forties

00:37:11.600 having conflict with mom and dad about how they were raised. You know, it's been 20 years.

00:37:19.640 Why are you still holding onto that? Why? Because I have to keep that story going

00:37:24.620 for me not to address the issue. That's how I live with myself. And it's not until we address the issue

00:37:32.560 that we can really let all of that go. Well, that's interesting. Yeah. I really hadn't

00:37:37.800 considered it that way. You have to justify it. Otherwise I can't, the, the things that I've done

00:37:43.920 in my life, some good, some not so good. And I'm sure every other human would feel the same.

00:37:50.920 We wouldn't be able to live with ourselves if we couldn't justify some of the crappy things we've

00:37:57.160 done to other people. Totally. Totally. And usually that justification is on the, is,

00:38:03.560 is the precursor to having conflict with another human usually, right? Like give me the hot topic,

00:38:12.000 right? What's, what's used the hot topic of pornography, for instance, mark my word. I almost

00:38:17.800 guarantee it. I don't know if this is true or not, but if I had to guess any guy that has a,

00:38:22.700 uh, an issue with pornography has justified it due to his relationship with his wife,

00:38:28.020 right? She doesn't have sex enough. She doesn't love me. She doesn't approve. Like that's all the

00:38:34.420 justification of it. You don't positively, it helps our sex life and it helps us be better connected.

00:38:39.860 So they, yeah, it has to be justified, right? But in the event that it's, it's a negative towards

00:38:46.920 his wife, like he's blaming her for it. Now you start wondering, okay, is it the pornography that's

00:38:53.660 hurting the relationship or is it all the blaming he's doing towards her to justify the pornography

00:38:58.880 that's hurting the relationship? Right. And it's probably a combination of both. He is, he is so mad

00:39:05.920 at her so he could justify action. You don't think that internal dialogue saying she's the problem,

00:39:12.080 she's the problem, isn't affecting the relationship as much or worse than the actual act itself.

00:39:19.220 Absolutely. It is. Yeah. Right. He's creating conflict in his justification with her.

00:39:25.880 Well, what, what I've seen is, is interesting is that men will say this, especially in regards to

00:39:31.720 pornography, single men, for example, is they'll say things like, well, when I get married, then I'll

00:39:38.440 stop watching pornography. Yeah. It's like, no, no, you won't just because you're having maybe more

00:39:45.600 frequent sex than you are right now. You're not going to just change your behavior because your

00:39:50.280 circumstances changed. You have to change your circumstances or excuse me, change your behavior,

00:39:56.100 which leads to change circumstances. So Cynthia, Sam, uh, he's been on the podcast. I know you know who

00:40:00.940 he is. He is an expert on overcoming pornography addiction and his story. And I don't know all of the

00:40:08.060 details, but he talks openly about him being addicted to porn. And he had said that when he made the

00:40:16.320 decision to finally stop viewing and watching porn, that's when he began a relationship with his now

00:40:23.620 wife. And I think they have one or two kids maybe. Um, but it didn't happen. He didn't meet her until he

00:40:31.320 stopped watching pornography because I think there's something that happens to our behavior when

00:40:40.520 we're engaged in activities like that, that are self-sabotaging. And I had a guy on the podcast,

00:40:47.380 his name's Skylar, Skylar Lewis. He runs Rise Up Kings. And he said, Ryan, the worst thing that you

00:40:51.960 could ever do is hide behavior. He said, if you engage in the behavior, it's better to be vocal and open

00:40:58.640 about it than it is to hide. Because the minute you start hiding is the minute you start to jeopardize

00:41:02.900 your integrity. And yeah, cause you have to justify hiding it. Yeah. Yeah. The way that you show up

00:41:09.000 is going to be inferior if you're hiding behavior. So he says, if you're ever, if you're ever tempted

00:41:15.040 to hide anything, you know, you're going down a very dark path. Yeah. Well, this is like a kind of a

00:41:22.060 softer, less critical, you know, example of this, but you know, I was talking with my, my daughters the

00:41:27.980 other day, man, our house is chaos. We're like shifting kids in different rooms and all that

00:41:32.240 kind of jazz. And my daughter's like, Oh, I, I can't wait to have my own room. I'm like, Oh,

00:41:38.100 well, like what makes you so excited? Oh, I'm going to keep it clean. And I go, but you never kept it

00:41:43.440 clean when you shared a room. Right. And she goes, yeah, but if it's my own room, I'll keep it clean.

00:41:49.180 I'm like, until the excitement wears off. She's like, what do you mean? I'm like, I promise you,

00:41:54.820 Kika. Right. That's how this works. People are always, they think the circumstances changes the

00:42:01.500 behavior and it's the other way around. You'll change your behavior temporarily because it's

00:42:06.220 exciting. And then it will just be a room. And if you never address the behavior of maintaining

00:42:12.700 cleanliness or whatever, then it won't make no difference. It's just like we all take care of

00:42:16.700 our brand new car, right. For about a month. Right. And then all of a sudden there's gummy bears

00:42:21.320 in between the seats, you know, or a relationship, you know, somebody can be really good in a

00:42:26.240 relationship for a month or two. And then all of a sudden they start changing behavior because they,

00:42:29.880 they were on their best behavior and now they're not. So that changes too. Yeah. All right. So we,

00:42:34.680 we beat, uh, the victim game to death. What's the, what's the second one of, of, um, self-leadership

00:42:42.020 that you see the three traps that men fall into? Yeah. So this is, this, these are all forms of being

00:42:47.220 a victim, but, but they are elements of positions that we sit in. So the second is when we become

00:42:56.340 an authoritative or a persecutor. And so, uh, a person, a persecutor, a persecutor. Yeah. They

00:43:03.540 lead through blame, fear, and control. Right. And so we can relate this to our kids, right? We are in a

00:43:10.140 position of authority and control over them. Right. But if we use our position of authority and control

00:43:17.200 to practice, um, kind of the darker sides of influence is kind of what I call them, right?

00:43:24.880 Where I use shame and belittlement manipulation or whatever to get what I want, then it's really

00:43:31.400 another form of victim mentality. If you really think about it, someone who overly persecutes

00:43:35.540 someone else, they're just a victim with a title. That's why they do it. Now here's the disclosure.

00:43:41.820 Some might be like, well, I'm not in a position of title. Oh, you don't think you persecute?

00:43:45.560 Oh, you absolutely do. Right. Hey honey, will you do this? She doesn't do it. What do you do?

00:43:52.200 I stonewall. I withhold affection. Right. I manipulate in dark ways. You absolutely do. Right. We,

00:44:02.400 we punish people for not doing what we think that they should do. And this is also another trap of

00:44:10.680 victim mentality, right? Because we'll nonchalantly covert contract, put things on people and wait

00:44:17.540 and hope that they'll make the changes. And we feel disempowered, right? Because the way they show

00:44:21.720 up is affecting how, uh, how we feel. How do you, how do you talk with other people? Let's say you

00:44:28.880 have to have a difficult conversation with, maybe it's an employee, maybe it's your boss, maybe it's

00:44:36.640 your wife. It doesn't matter who it is. You have to have a difficult conversation about something

00:44:40.320 they're doing or not doing that doesn't sit well with you. How do you do that twofold without

00:44:46.320 persecuting? And number two, without coming across as a complainer or a whiner, because I've felt that

00:44:54.060 way before. I've not said things to people that I need from them because I don't want it to come

00:45:01.640 across as me being weak or me being, um, you know, soft or investing too much in my feelings,

00:45:13.800 that sort of thing, if that makes sense. Totally. So before I answer the question specifically,

00:45:20.080 let me say this. I think it's important that we get to the mindset that we don't,

00:45:25.800 people are choosing to be around us. You have no control over people. We have expectations,

00:45:34.280 right? Like I have expectations of what a wife should do. I probably have this book of life,

00:45:39.340 this nonchalant book of life that is these rules that a wife should, right? And I think she should

00:45:45.120 do those things, but guess what? She's going to do what she wants to do. And the fact that she's

00:45:52.280 in this marriage today is because she chose that today and she could easily change her mind and

00:45:58.780 not choose it tomorrow. And no different. Knowing you and your wife, she probably will for sure.

00:46:03.840 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and same thing with your employees. We had this tendency, right?

00:46:09.000 We get into a business relationship and we're excited about this employee we're hiring. This is

00:46:13.760 a partnership where, you know, they want what I want. We're, we're aligned and then we hire them.

00:46:18.420 And then a lot of leaders move to, they need me. I don't need them. The minute you take that on,

00:46:27.800 you start putting yourself in a, in a higher position than them. And you start looking at

00:46:33.460 things wrong, which will allow you to persecute more than you, than you absolutely should.

00:46:39.020 So we need a first value. Yeah. Isn't there value in that though? To, so to have some level of that,

00:46:45.400 you know, for example, I think we talked about this the other day in dating where, yeah, when we're

00:46:51.220 talking about energy, when a man has a large number of choices, he's able to make better decisions

00:46:57.960 because he's choosing who to be with based on his own standards. But if he's, because he has a plethora

00:47:05.920 of people to choose from, but if he's scarce and he doesn't, then he has to fit a square peg into a round

00:47:12.720 hole. And I would assume that it would be the same with employees. If I have to have this employee

00:47:18.560 and they, I need them. Am I making it a desperate situation for me? And am I putting too much

00:47:26.820 weight or pressure on them? Yeah. Let me, let me shift the paradigm this way.

00:47:33.940 All that we're, we're, you can be abundant and believe that I have an environment by which many

00:47:39.920 people would love to join, right? And be on my team. I can absolutely believe that. And when I hire

00:47:47.140 you, all that I'm doing is clarifying what I want, seeing what you want. And are we aligned?

00:47:54.780 Yeah. And that's it. Are we aligned? Are we still aligned? And the minute we're not aligned,

00:48:01.460 then we fix the alignment, or maybe this is no longer like what, what's, what's best for you

00:48:06.540 or what you want. That it's that simple, right? But the minute we start like, ah, well, let me try

00:48:12.200 to get him to stay. And we do this with employees all the time. We manipulate the shit out of them,

00:48:17.820 trying to, trying to get them to stay and not leave. Well, why don't we just clarify what is it

00:48:22.380 that they want? What are we offering? And guess what? If they don't want it, maybe they shouldn't be there.

00:48:27.520 Maybe they should leave. And that's what's in the best interest of them and the organization. Why?

00:48:32.940 Because we're out of alignment. So I like to look at this from, we honor choice, agency. It's a God

00:48:40.440 given thing. I, I, I tie, I connect to that from a religious perspective and it's, and it's fascinating.

00:48:46.780 It's like from a religious side, we believe it, right? It's like agency and freedom and,

00:48:52.080 and choices. We believe it for ourselves, not for other people. Yeah. Yeah. But then it's like,

00:48:58.280 oh, I have a job. No, no, no. That's different. It's like, I don't think that principle changes.

00:49:02.320 I don't think God intends that choice to change just like teenage kids. The best way to raise a

00:49:08.220 defiant teenage kid is to honor choice. Now we create the framework. So there's consequences of

00:49:15.120 choice, but growth is found where in agency. That's why it's a godly principle. So it doesn't

00:49:22.660 change just because we're in the work environment. In fact, that principle is just as strong in a work

00:49:27.680 environment and in a home environment as it is from a religious text perspective. So we don't persecute.

00:49:33.020 So if I have to have a tough conversation with someone first, I think it from this perspective,

00:49:36.960 this is a realignment conversation that, Hey, I, I, and curiosity and honoring their choice.

00:49:45.920 Right. And so if I have a conversation with an employee where expectations aren't met,

00:49:50.380 the first question I have to ask myself is, did I clarify expectations? Are we even clear on what's

00:49:57.300 expected? And if we are, then I'm coming back to the table saying, Hey, Ryan, you and I talked about

00:50:02.380 this. I felt like we were aligned at one point that we both wanted these outcomes, but I'm not

00:50:08.320 seeing that. What am I missing? And, and, and we talked about this yesterday, the power of curiosity,

00:50:13.260 what am I missing? And we work through it and you helped me understand. And I, and I'm operating

00:50:20.320 from the perspective that you're amazing person, that you're capable of greatness, and I'm here to

00:50:25.380 support you. And maybe there's a number of factors of why you're not meeting my expectations. And guess

00:50:31.360 what? Those factors might be me, but I I'm operating from the place of curiosity. Here's the red flag.

00:50:40.680 I use most difficult conversations are difficult because I'm going into them with the idea that

00:50:47.140 you're the problem. So I go, I don't want to have this conversation with Ryan. Why? Well, because I

00:50:53.980 don't want him upset. Why would he be upset? Because you think he's the problem is why. So let go of that

00:51:00.200 judgment. The facts are what? Expectations here. Results are here. I don't know why. Let's get

00:51:07.260 curious and let's have a conversation around it. Yeah, that's a good point. Cause when you first said

00:51:12.740 that, I was like, well, no, they might actually be the problem. They might not be getting you what

00:51:17.360 you need and desire, whether it's a personal or professional relationship. And so I was going to

00:51:25.080 disagree with you, but then you clarified. And I agree with this part of what you said is that

00:51:29.820 let's just go in curious. Hey, is there a reason you're not doing this? Is it something that you

00:51:36.400 don't know needs to be done? Is it something that you don't want to do? And then we need to have a

00:51:42.760 different kind of discussion. Is it something that you are unaware of that is important to me? And just

00:51:48.620 by bringing it up now, you know, and you can correct that behavior. I like that idea of curiosity as

00:51:54.600 opposed to persecution. Here's the crazy part. Most employee underperformance and we'll use it. I only

00:52:01.940 have the statistics for employees. I don't have it for kids underperforming, right? But most employee

00:52:08.260 underperformance is not competence. It's how they feel. You're dealing, you're dealing with machines

00:52:18.260 that make meaning. You're dealing with people that add meaning to everything. They're underperforming.

00:52:23.280 Why? Because I don't feel appreciated. Why? Because you said this thing the other day. And like, that's

00:52:29.740 most of the problems are in how they see the work that they're doing, not in their abilities.

00:52:35.500 That's why AI is going to take over everything because you just don't have to worry about that.

00:52:39.580 You don't have to deal with this. It's like, just perform. Here's the prompt. Do that without

00:52:44.340 giving any meaning to it. Yeah. But that's what it means to be human. And by the way, I've done this

00:52:52.220 so many times, Ryan, where I'll share a quick story. I had an employee. He wasn't meeting expectations

00:52:59.840 of performance. I knew what the problem was, right? I looked at his calendar and, and we have these

00:53:05.880 reports and I looked at his stuff and he's blown through PTO. Like there's no tomorrow. Right. I'm

00:53:10.340 like, dude, like you're not working, right? Like you're just on holiday all the time. That's the issue.

00:53:16.280 And I, and I took my own counsel and I thought, actually, I'm going to try this out. I know what the

00:53:22.600 problem is. I'm absolutely right, but I'm going to choose to be curious instead and honor his agency.

00:53:32.800 So I meet with him and say, Hey, expectation results. We have a gap. Help me understand what

00:53:40.080 the gap is. How do I help you? And he comes to the table and, and I just waiting for him to say,

00:53:46.260 well, it's cause I take too much PTO. Never brought it up. He never brought it up. And he's like,

00:53:51.580 oh, it's, it's, it's, he's like, here's the deal. Mentally I struggle because when I get into the

00:53:59.080 office, I feel like I'm already behind the eight ball and I'm like mad scrambling and be behind by

00:54:04.620 noon. I'm already behind. And then I just feel like I can't make it up. And so I, I'm like,

00:54:11.100 oh, tomorrow. And then I kicked the can. And so he's sharing this mental block that he has.

00:54:16.660 And I'm like, well, what, what would the solution be then? And he goes, I just need to get up at

00:54:21.800 seven. I'm like, that's your solution is wake up at seven. That's, that's the issue. And he's like,

00:54:29.860 yeah, I think so. And I'm like, all right. Like, how do I support you in that next week? He's high

00:54:39.100 performing. He's not a problem. That's what he needed because he's a unique individual.

00:54:44.320 Does it make sense? And it's fascinating to me. Right. And it's like, just wake up two hours

00:54:49.580 earlier. This is their solution. Okay. Yeah. I'm like, Hey, if you're willing to do that,

00:54:53.460 I'll support you in it. How do I help? Is there anything I can do? But he's going to be more bought

00:54:58.220 into that versus if I had the conversation, like, Hey, I need to talk to you about something. You're

00:55:02.220 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You need to be compliant. You need to follow these things. Right. And he's

00:55:05.520 like, okay. And I'll just do the thing that my boss tells me to do. Cause he created uncertainty

00:55:09.720 because I think my job's on the line. If I don't make this change, that's all yucky. But I just went

00:55:15.300 in there doing, dude, I want you to win. I want you to kill it. Team has to kill it, but you got to

00:55:20.340 pull your weight. So help me understand what the issue is and how am I doing something? How do I help

00:55:25.060 you? He walked out of that feeling supported, loved and in control, empowered to resolve the issue,

00:55:33.640 not told what to do. Yeah. And if he wouldn't have come up with that solution, or let's say he did

00:55:43.080 come up with that solution, but his performance continued at some point, you'd need to have a

00:55:47.460 talk about, Hey, we're not aligned in our, in. Yeah. And it's not fair for the employee to keep

00:55:52.280 you on board while you take five years to figure out why you can't meet expectations. Right. That's

00:55:57.080 unfair. Yeah, exactly. It's unfair. But at that point, and here's, and let me just point this in Ryan,

00:56:02.480 because I really, I, I, I love this saying, and I've used this a couple of times, just resonates

00:56:06.740 with people is you don't fire employees. They fire themselves employees. You don't promote

00:56:15.220 employees. They promote themselves. You provide the clarity, the guidelines to make that all that

00:56:21.280 possible. They take the action to determine the outcome. Right. And by the way, if they don't feel

00:56:26.660 it, if they do feel like you hold the stick of termination or the stick of promotion, but

00:56:32.420 not them, they're not operating from an, uh, uh, a space of autonomy and ownership, they're a victim

00:56:39.680 to you. They need to feel that it's within their realm of control. They will outperform any other

00:56:45.480 employee than one that you're, you're the puppeteer for. Yeah. Interesting. All right. What's the third

00:56:51.260 point? So we have victim master. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we have victim persecutor. And then what was the third

00:56:56.420 rescuer? Rescuer is your rescuers and in our rescuers, man, once again, everything we do has a

00:57:05.200 payoff, right? So what's the payoff of the rescuer? Oh, my, my team's struggling. Yeah. I'll swoop in.

00:57:13.360 I'll save them. I'll be the hero. Oh, they don't want to have that difficult conversation. Timmy doesn't

00:57:19.600 want to resolve that conflict with his friends. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to call his parents

00:57:23.840 and us parents will fix it for him. Oh, kids are fighting in the backyard. Let me swoop in and

00:57:28.760 save my kid from getting in an argument. These are all forms of rescuing. And the problem with this is

00:57:36.020 it's, it's where victims still, even the hero and the rescuer is a victim. Why? Because my validation

00:57:44.400 is coming from who? From saving people. So I need problems. I need problems so I can swoop in and

00:57:53.700 save people. And while I do that, I undermine the growth of those individuals. They don't grow. They

00:58:00.640 I'm robbing them from the challenges and difficulties of life and the circumstances of life. And instead

00:58:07.400 of coaching them to deal with it themselves, I just come in and I save it for them. And these are the

00:58:12.840 bosses that everyone loves, but the team underperforms. These are the bosses that everyone loves, but they

00:58:18.300 can't scale. And the bosses run around their head cut off, putting out fires all the time. And they're

00:58:23.900 like, Oh, and, and ironically enough, if you look at both of those scenarios, the hero or the rescuer,

00:58:29.640 they also don't believe they're in their people. They don't believe Timmy can resolve it. They don't

00:58:35.060 believe those employees can resolve it. So they do it for themselves. And because of that, they're

00:58:39.520 constantly addressing things instead of serving the team, instead of focusing on themselves and their

00:58:45.060 progression and strategic direction for them and their environment, they're just firefighting all

00:58:50.860 the time. And eventually they get burned out. They get so fed up with it. And then they persecute the

00:58:55.840 shit out of everybody.

00:58:58.320 This is the, this is the premise of leftism by the way, too. It's a lack of belief in people. It's,

00:59:04.540 it's a pessimistic view about human, human potential that people are incapable of rescuing themselves.

00:59:10.440 And so I have to come do it because I want to feel good. It's very selfish. And it doesn't,

00:59:15.360 it goes against human behavior. That's not how people learn and grow.

00:59:21.160 It's hard because with the rescuer, it doesn't feel selfish, but it is, it feels selfless. You're

00:59:27.680 like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to help. I'm going to be, okay. I like what you said. You're

00:59:31.420 robbing people of the challenges, the struggle, the adversity, the ability to grow and learn and get

00:59:36.040 better. That's powerful. Yeah. That one's hard. That's also, um, the nice guy syndrome too,

00:59:41.660 by the way, is a lot of nice guys are rescuers like, Oh, I don't want to rock the boat. And

00:59:47.560 Oh, you need help with it. I can do that. I'll do that. I'll do that. I'll do that.

00:59:50.920 And then they just get angry and frustrated and hostile.

00:59:54.780 And the reason why is in the backside of all that rescuing, what are they expecting?

01:00:00.400 Probably praise or praise and appreciate them, but it doesn't go, it doesn't go spoken.

01:00:06.040 It's covert. It's all yucky, right? It's, it's, it's in that space of manipulation. It's just

01:00:12.800 manipulation through kindness. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, it's yeah. Nice, nice, polite manipulation.

01:00:21.740 Maybe, maybe we call it that polite manipulation. Yeah. No. Okay. So how do you, how do you overcome

01:00:30.040 the, the ability or the desire to rescue people? Because again, I think that one might be the

01:00:36.040 hardest. Like, I, I think, you know, when you're being a persecutor and I, and I think you can work

01:00:40.960 on that. I think, you know, when you're playing a victim and you can work on that, but you want,

01:00:44.880 like the rescuer is going to be hard for a lot of people because they do want to be in service.

01:00:49.040 And we also advocate for that too, to serve the team, to help the team, to be a team player.

01:00:54.680 So it's a little conflicting. You use this example, you use this example a lot, right? I've heard you

01:00:59.560 use this example. It's like when your kids are like, oh, I feel this way. You ask, you don't,

01:01:06.240 you don't jump to the conclusion and go, oh, you shouldn't. You go, what? Well, what, why? What is that?

01:01:12.040 Where does that come from? What do you think? Oh, dad, I'm struggling. I can't take the trash out

01:01:17.380 because I'm not tall enough to lift the lid of the trash can. Well, what could you do? Yeah.

01:01:22.420 What are your options? Right. And I think that focus is a focus of long-term strategic focus

01:01:29.740 versus tactical. Persecutors are persecuting to win the moment. Rescuers are rescuing to win the

01:01:36.520 moment. But human development is not in the moment. Human development is over time.

01:01:43.940 So it's not about the project being successful. It's about the person learning. So the next 50

01:01:50.840 projects are successful. It's not about the kid cleaning the room. It's about the kid learning the

01:01:56.740 importance of doing something difficult. Because as a parent, what are you doing? Is my job to ensure

01:02:02.380 clean rooms in a house? Is that my job as a parent? No, it's a raised humans. Oh, got it. I should

01:02:09.900 probably rescue them then. I should probably think strategically about this and let Timmy deal with

01:02:15.900 that conflict in that relationship so he can start figuring out how to do that now for when he's an

01:02:21.600 adult. You know what I mean? He has some emotional regulation. It's really a short-sighted way of

01:02:28.220 thinking. They're both of our forms of tactical wins versus strategic focus. Yeah. Yeah, that's

01:02:34.120 powerful. I like that framework. And I work really well under frameworks. You know this about me at

01:02:38.100 this point. But having that three-point framework of victim, persecutor, and rescuer, I think everybody

01:02:43.020 listening can go in and say, okay, which one am I? And we're probably, like for me, I'm probably,

01:02:50.400 I would say I'm heavily weighted towards rescuer over victim and persecutor. I think my victim score is

01:02:55.600 very low. My persecutor is probably somewhere in the middle and my rescue is probably pretty high,

01:03:02.220 highly indexed. So that's something that even I can learn from and grow from. And I'm sure other

01:03:06.760 people are just, are different, you know? So. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll jump, like I alluded to

01:03:12.860 earlier, we'll jump between them. We'll rescue until we're just fed up and then we're done, right?

01:03:18.280 And they'll persecute. Or what happens, what I've done is I'll overly persecute and then I'll feel bad

01:03:24.080 about it. So then I'll swoop in and just rescue people to make up for it. Still manipulating them,

01:03:30.720 still not letting them own the circumstance, still not coaching. I just dance them in between

01:03:35.120 the two forms of manipulation to get what I want. But what's the line between being a rescuer and

01:03:42.660 being, for example, a team player or a good partner or a good husband, you know? Well,

01:03:49.420 and I think they're all rooted in this, that we, that first we have to understand that

01:03:55.920 challenges, as Andrew Huberm would say, stress is an enhancer. Difficulty is good, actually,

01:04:07.060 if we have a growth mindset coupled with it. And so we need to stop seeing difficulty as some bad

01:04:14.460 thing. Difficulty is an amazing opportunity to learn. And we need to double down on that way

01:04:21.180 of thinking, right? It's no different. Like Ryan, if you and I hit the gym today and you're doing curls

01:04:26.700 and you're, you know, we're doing a sets of, I don't know, 20 and on set 10, you're like,

01:04:32.180 oh my gosh, this is so difficult. And I like steal the bar from you. Oh, I'll take care of it for you,

01:04:37.440 Ryan. And I start curling for you. I just robbed you of this awesome opportunity. That's not what you

01:04:43.360 need from me. What do you need from me? You need me saying, dude, you got this. And maybe a slight

01:04:49.320 support, right? To push through some extra reps. I believe that you got this, right? That's what you

01:04:55.040 need for personal growth. You don't need someone yelling in your ear saying you're worthless piece

01:05:01.120 of shit and you can't do it. And you also don't need someone to steal the bar from you. You need

01:05:05.620 support and coach and someone to believe in you and help you on your form and support you, you know,

01:05:11.520 in the rep and things like that. Yeah. I wrote something down here as you were talking about it,

01:05:16.780 that we need to stop looking at difficulty as bad as what you'd said. And I said, and if I just wrote

01:05:22.400 this, and if you don't like feeling bad, learn faster because I know for me in my own life,

01:05:31.040 I have made the same mistakes over and over and over again. When I say learn, I should say learn and

01:05:37.420 apply faster because we could know what to do and still not do it. So I guess it'd be learning and

01:05:43.620 applying faster because if you don't learn the lessons that need to be learned through difficulty,

01:05:48.520 then you're just going to continue to be, you might temporarily put a bandaid over it. Things

01:05:54.480 will definitely get better, but then you're going to find yourself in the same kind of relationship,

01:05:59.420 doing the same dumb thing. You're going to find yourself in the, in the same way with your

01:06:03.760 employment or your finances or your health or any aspect of life. Cause you didn't learn and apply

01:06:09.220 fast and efficiently enough. Totally. The gap of learning doesn't go away.

01:06:15.480 The, the, the block is still there until you learn it. So let's learn it sooner than later.

01:06:21.920 Can I share this quote by, by Andrew Humerman that I use, and this is really profound. This might help us

01:06:27.660 really connect with the importance of stress. He says to be able to learn something,

01:06:33.460 we have to shift our nervous systems into states that are uncomfortable. Any successful type of

01:06:38.940 learning and goal pursuits is going to involve errors, failures, anxiety, and frustration. Here's

01:06:43.980 the key. All of those states of mind and body shift the brain into modes of neuroplasticity. They give

01:06:50.780 the brain the ability to change. When there's stress, you literally learn faster and better. It's enhances

01:07:02.700 what you're doing when stress is involved. It's painful. Yeah. And, and this is why they become

01:07:10.360 almost these defining things. I use jujitsu as an example. I, whenever I signed up with a tournament,

01:07:15.160 there's an extra stress, right? When you do a tournament. And I remember those matches like

01:07:22.500 vividly, vividly. Like even now I remember like how I felt, what I did, where I put my hand,

01:07:29.480 how I used leverage. It's heightened. My awareness of the situation is heightened because of the stress

01:07:36.020 that was involved. Yeah. So it's good. What's like embrace these opportunities of challenge and stress

01:07:43.060 as opportunities to learn. Well, and this I think helps us not solve, but come closer to the answer

01:07:49.640 of why we have to. Yeah. This is interesting. Cause a lot of the times, some of the questions that we

01:07:55.160 often get are, are, you know, does a man have to hit rock bottom before he changes? Probably. Yeah.

01:08:03.000 Because nothing else hurts enough. And it's the same reason why you could tell your four-year-old

01:08:09.280 little kid, don't, don't touch the stove. Don't, Hey, don't put your hand up there. And they do it a

01:08:16.140 dozen times. You're like, fine, touch it. Go ahead. And they touch it. Like that hurts. Like, yeah,

01:08:20.740 yeah, it does hurt. Now, you know, and you got your burn and now it's going to stick. Right. And

01:08:27.040 it does, unless they're really dense. And there are some kids that are where they think, well,

01:08:31.380 maybe this time it's not hot, but, um, and adults do that too. They're like, well, maybe this time

01:08:36.720 it's different. No, it's the exact same scenario. You didn't change. You're engaged in the same

01:08:42.120 behavior and the stove is still hot, buddy, but yeah, go for it. Try it. See how it works out for you.

01:08:46.980 And the learnings, the learnings here for us. It's not in you telling me what to do,

01:08:52.080 seeking compliance, persecuting me to take action. I didn't learn anything. I was just

01:08:57.680 compliant to what you told me to do. And the rescuer just like locks you in the room. So you

01:09:02.760 don't touch the stove. I still haven't learned anything. Right. I still haven't learned the

01:09:07.240 lesson. I have to learn the lesson, not you, right. I have to learn it. Yeah. Good point. Well,

01:09:15.700 brother, I appreciate you, man. Um, as always, I enjoy our conversations. This one was a little

01:09:19.460 different and just allowed you to riff on, on leadership topics and principles. I know you've

01:09:23.780 had some, uh, pivots and shifts in your life and your professional life, uh, restress. Yeah. Talk

01:09:30.900 about stress, but tell the guys where to learn more about what you're doing with regards to

01:09:35.800 self-leadership and leadership at, in the professional and personal spaces as well. Tell the

01:09:41.020 guys how to connect with you and learn more. Absolutely. So I've, I'm going all in, man. I

01:09:45.860 am, I'm going all into developing, or actually I've already developed, um, a leadership framework

01:09:51.040 that I called lead lead stronger. And you can learn more about that framework and what I do at go

01:09:58.000 lead stronger.com. And then obviously connecting with me on the socials, um, at Kip Sorensen, uh,

01:10:04.740 and even on LinkedIn, but, uh, I'm excited, man. Like, you know, we, we've talked about this,

01:10:09.320 but, um, alignment is critical and alignment for both directions, right? If we're in a

01:10:18.140 position of authority, we want those that are serving on our teams to be aligned with the

01:10:22.720 mission, right? Ryan, you want people aligned with what you're doing. Yeah. But it's also true

01:10:28.740 for the individual, right? If I'm a battle team leader in the iron council and I'm not aligned

01:10:34.340 with the mission of order, man, it's not serving me either. I need to go somewhere where I'm aligned,

01:10:41.560 where, where I feel like I'm in integrity, where I'm operating out of the space of autonomy,

01:10:47.660 not being compliant to what you want. It's super important for all parties to be in that space.

01:10:55.660 And so I feel that sense of alignment with me stepping away from the, from the corporate world

01:11:01.600 then coming back into entrepreneurship and focused on what I, I passionately think is,

01:11:06.660 is really important. Right. And I have alignment around, so I'm, I'm actually really excited about

01:11:11.020 it. Well, I'm excited for you. I know if there's one person who can do it and is well qualified and

01:11:16.260 well-versed in all of this stuff, you geek out on this leadership stuff in a way that I don't,

01:11:19.940 but it's something I appreciate about you. Cause I get to learn from you without having to like do

01:11:24.040 it myself. If I just listen, I guess that's another thing. We don't have to touch the hot stove.

01:11:28.980 If we can just take somebody that we trust and is credible and say, Hey, if they said so,

01:11:32.660 then I'll believe that. And I'm good with that. And we should all be looking for those credible

01:11:36.420 resources. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Appreciate you, man. Thanks for joining me today.

01:11:44.000 All right, guys, there you go. My conversation with my good friend, my dear friend and leadership

01:11:48.540 expert, Kip Sorensen. I really hope you enjoyed that one. There was some angles in there that he took

01:11:53.380 that I had not heard before that gave me some insight and enlightenment to how I can lead myself

01:11:58.640 better and my kids and the people that I love and care about. Um, so I'm excited to implement some

01:12:04.820 of this stuff. Make sure you connect with Kip on Instagram, go check out his site, go leadstronger.com.

01:12:11.360 Also make sure you check out the iron council. Kip is in the iron council as well. He does a lot of

01:12:15.560 leadership training inside that you'll have access to that anywhere else he charges for, but you'll have

01:12:21.800 access to that in the iron council. Uh, and that will be on the preview call tomorrow night, January

01:12:27.720 7th at 8 PM. Eastern head to the iron council.com slash preview. That's the iron council.com slash

01:12:35.600 preview. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for ask me anything. And tomorrow night, I'll see

01:12:40.500 you on the preview call until then go out there, take action and become a man. You are meant to be.

01:12:45.620 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be

01:12:51.080 more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - January 06, 2026

KIPP SORENSEN ｜ Self-leadership for the New Year

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