After an incredibly successful start in Hollywood as Mike Seaver on Growing Pains, Kirk Cameron has made it his life s mission to reclaim masculinity, not only in his home, but to become a champion of manliness for all men who are working to unpack what it means to be a man.
00:09:56.500And it was written by a father who studied this idea of a rite of passage for young men.
00:10:03.320And many cultures have a rite of passage, including Africans who will take the boys and they have a period of time at around a certain age
00:10:16.300where they go through these tests and these feats of strength and mental agility and faithfulness and go out into the woods or the top of a mountain
00:10:25.240and bring back an ostrich feather dipped in the blood of a goat that they had to kill.
00:10:31.320I thought you was going to say dipped in the blood of his enemy or something like that.
00:11:35.800The life that God has designed for men to live, which is a life of provision and protection and building and working and loving and sacrificing for others and raising the next generation.
00:11:49.920If we can't embrace that as a culture and we're going to punt and say, dude, you can have a baby as a man or kids, you know, and we raise them like that since they're little, they'll have no idea what it means to be a man.
00:12:06.340That's why we can have Supreme Court justices and everybody else who can't even tell you what a woman is.
00:12:10.720They can't tell you what a man is because they paint themselves in a corner rhetorically, and all of a sudden, they're going to torpedo the political money that's coming in to support them.
00:12:57.060And so, and we see this in lots of different things, and racial politics and identity politics, sexual politics, gender politics, they all serve a different purpose.
00:13:10.920And that's why I appreciate what you're doing is you're getting back to the basics, getting back to authenticity and genuineness.
00:13:59.320No, it is interesting, though, because I was on Twitter just before you came over, which is not always advisable.
00:14:07.220And I was talking with a guy who was telling me that, and he was trying to say it in very technical, smart, fancy terms about how everything is conflated and masculinity doesn't matter and all this kind of stuff is outdated.
00:14:24.340If that's the reality, if the reality that all of this stuff is outdated and unimportant, then why are men falling behind on just about every metric that you can imagine?
00:14:35.200From suicide to alcohol and drug abuse to fewer and fewer getting married, lower college admission rates, lower income earnings than they have in the past, not being in a relationship, fewer marriages, fewer children.
00:14:49.660Like, we are falling behind on every metric.
00:14:52.200Like, so if the lack of masculinity is producing that result, then I think we probably ought to consider that maybe there is some objective version of masculinity and manliness.
00:15:16.620They didn't even know what a television was way back then, George Washington and Robert the Bruce and William Wallace and Wilberforce and all of these guys.
00:15:24.880But I look back now and I think, man, these guys were studs.
00:15:31.960But they had some things that were, they drove some stakes into the ground.
00:15:37.040And they, many of them who did great things in history that set people free, that were the fathers of science or industry or nations that brought about great awakenings toward morality or spirituality or principles of economics.
00:15:56.800Or they were people who had a belief that they weren't just a random collection of cells that never had them in mind that evolved through a process that couldn't care less what happens to them.
00:16:11.480They believed they were actually created on purpose for a purpose and that family had intrinsic value, not just, hey, we like this family thing, but it doesn't really matter.
00:16:23.820And, and, and that, you know, uh, doesn't, doesn't matter whether you're male or female and right can be wrong and wrong can be right in different cultures.
00:16:31.880No, they, they had this idea that, that good is going to prevail over evil, that, uh, men have responsibilities that are sacred and that so do women and that we each need to play our roles well.
00:16:45.600And within those roles, there's great diversity and there is great freedom and autonomy to be uniquely yourself.
00:16:52.980But at the end of the day, you're not here for you.
00:16:55.940You're here for your creator and you're here for others on a mission to accomplish that, which is true and beautiful and good.
00:17:04.120And if you choose to reject the mission, uh, it's, it's not going to turn out good for you.
00:17:09.460But if you choose to accept the mission and you get on board with that, man, it's going to be an adventure and it's going to result in, in blessing and reward.
00:17:19.140Right. Yeah. It is interesting when you talk about this idea of you're not here for yourself.
00:17:24.980Cause that's one common theme I see in a lot of the very successful men I've had on the podcast is they know there's something bigger.
00:17:31.920Uh, many are spiritual and some are not, but they all, all of them know that there's something bigger than themselves.
00:17:37.520But if you look at society today, it is all based around, I'm going to get mine. I need, Oh, here's one.
00:17:44.460I just want to be happy. I just want to do things that make me happy.
00:17:47.000It's like, well, I want to be happy too, but I find happiness and fulfillment towards something more important than just how I might be feeling mentally for the day.
00:17:56.040Yeah. I think so too. And I mean, we could chase that rabbit down its hole. I just want to be happy.
00:18:01.980Well, I mean, what about Jeffrey Dahmer? He just wanted to be happy. What about Hitler? He just wanted to be happy.
00:18:07.060What about Epstein? He just wanted to be happy, but we would all come back and go, well, hold time out.
00:18:12.240Maybe that's not that's sick. Right. You can't do that.
00:18:15.180It's not about what makes you happy. Um, for me, uh, I say, what is it that, what is it that's going to make personally?
00:18:26.900I want to honor God because I'm grateful for my life and my wife and my kids that I get to breathe right now.
00:18:32.220And he kept my heart beating up while I was asleep last night. And I want to be a blessing to other people in their life.
00:18:38.080If everybody just lived that way, right? Like, like the two great commandments, love God with all your heart, all your strength and love your neighbor the way that you'd like to be loved yourself.
00:18:46.160If we all did that, bro, it'd be pretty, it would be like heaven on earth.
00:18:50.960We wouldn't need any laws. We wouldn't need any courts. We wouldn't need any police.
00:18:56.280We wouldn't need any of that stuff because people are governing themselves under the, the rules that we were intended to live by, which is kindness and compassion.
00:19:04.860Now, unfortunately there's evil. And so we need, we need weapons and we need civil government and police and we need all of those things.
00:19:11.980But if we can focus on propagating the good and amplifying the right stuff in the hearts of young men and women, then the size and the scope of all of the other things like civil government and, um, war and police and prisons and all that stuff will, will, will shrink and shrink and shrink to where it ought to be, which is small.
00:19:34.220Right. Yeah. Something that isn't an absolute necessity. It's just there to, yeah, for some basic things. But I also like one thing you said too, about, um, this idea that we have, um, objectionable or not objectionable is not the right word.
00:19:48.780Uh, an objective purpose that it's, it's not subject to interpretation. This is why we're here as men.
00:19:55.260But I also like what you said about the idea of diversity. You know, for example, we often talk about a man's job is to, uh, provide and part of provision is financial provision.
00:20:05.440Yeah. And I don't care if you play football for the Eagles or you paint or you create music. It doesn't, not one or the other makes you less or more manly. It's the fact that you can provide for yourself and for other people.
00:20:18.700Yeah. I love that too. And of course, as you said, that will take on different, different ways. I mean, I provide for my family in such a weird way. I, I, I didn't, I didn't study to be a politician.
00:20:30.360I didn't study to be a minister. I didn't study really, uh, to be an actor. I didn't even want to be an actor. I want to be a doctor when I was a little kid.
00:20:39.240Yeah. I grew up with opportunities and doors that opened up that sent me down a path. I never planned to go down, but I, I look now in the rear view mirror and I'm going like, holy cow, this is way better than what I thought I wanted for my life.
00:20:50.700And now I'm providing for my family, um, spiritually, I hope, I think I'm trying, uh, financially, uh, emotionally. And, and, and, you know, I think more than providing for your wife and kids financially and physically, which, which is sort of like the,
00:21:09.000what we intuitively understand. Right. Kind of that surface level, like obviously, obviously, like I'm here to protect you. I think I know what that means. I mean, I'm your shield. I'm your sword. I'm your protector.
00:21:19.140And financially, I want to provide for you, um, so that we can buy food and turn on the lights. But there, there's an aspect. I think sometimes as men we miss, I know I've missed it in my marriage. And that is that my wife, she's the, she's the heart of our home. She's the soft and the tender and the relationally driven. I'm the outside. I'm the, I'm the ribs.
00:21:39.000I'm the shield. She's the heart inside. And she needs me to protect her. But you know where she wants protection most? Emotional security. Right.
00:21:47.200She wants to know that I'm not looking at her wishing she was someone different than who she is, criticizing her, condemning her and evaluating everything she does.
00:21:59.120She wants to know that my eyes are on her and my love for her is secure just the way she is. And we're going to grow together into the people that God wants us to be.
00:22:10.880And, and if I can provide my wife with the kind of emotional security that lets her know she's valued and that she will never be alone, I am with you and I treasure you.
00:22:22.800Then that puts her into a position to open up like a flower to you as a man and say, you're, you're my knight in shining armor. I will go wherever you want to go and do whatever you want to do because, because you're with me and I trust you.
00:22:38.640And that's the kind of security I'm working on with my wife because she deserves it. And I kind of missed it for a lot of years.
00:22:47.240Well, it's also, and I know you're talking about it in the context of what's good for her, but for guys who are listening, it's also good for you.
00:23:03.200But it is funny because, and I haven't, I haven't always been great at this, just like we all struggle in certain times, but I see this with my kids too, you know, and at the baseline, you could, you could say, okay, I'm going to watch, I have three boys as well.
00:23:16.480And I have a daughter too, but I can watch any of them play sports.
00:23:19.620And the safety that they need from me is that I'm not going to think less of them if they lose the game.
00:23:24.180And I probably won't even think all that much more of them if they win the game.
00:23:48.700I know you're not, I know you're not perfect, but just the fact that you're aware of that, you recognize that, and you are striving to do that, that is, that's exemplary.
00:23:56.080And that's the best that any of us can do.
00:23:59.040You know, for, for, for people who read the Bible, they'll recognize that the greatest blessing, the Bible says, is that God does not treat his children according to what they deserve.
00:24:11.440And that there's nothing you can do, and that there's nothing you can do, and that there's nothing you can do or not do that's going to make God love you more or less.
00:24:18.620He's decided to set his love upon his sons and daughters.
00:24:22.440And so, that's not license to go out there and start acting like an idiot and do evil.
00:24:27.640But what that does give you is, it gives me security as a son, that whether I win the game or I lose the game today, that's not going to change the commitment of my father.
00:24:40.040And that's the kind of man, that's, those are the orders to men in parenting our children and toward our wives and everybody else in our life, is value people and don't, don't withhold your commitment to loving people, especially your family, based on their performance.
00:24:59.120You wouldn't want God to treat you that way.
00:25:04.680Well, I think, I think the idea too behind that is that now if, if you have something that's more significant, whether it's God or a set of virtues, I don't know what it is for people.
00:25:16.600It serves as a foundation for you to behave in a certain way that is not contingent upon validation from other people or the, what I call the doctrine of popular culture, because on one, one day it could mean this and the next day it could mean that.
00:25:30.020Just like we were talking about, man means woman, woman means man.
00:25:32.720No, you can't because I'm set on this foundation and it's immovable for me.
00:25:39.320But doesn't that make you a relic and stiff and rigid and unenlightened?
00:25:47.260I think it does to people who don't have that foundation.
00:25:50.560I would imagine they interpret it that way.
00:25:52.620But the reality, this is one question I get a lot, especially with God, because I wrote a book called Sovereignty and sovereignty is important to me.
00:25:59.280It's just being able to do the things that you want to do, make decisions on your own accord, live the life that you want to live, not at the expense of others or selfishly by any means, but so that you can better serve.
00:26:10.700And a lot of guys will say, well, you know, if I, if I follow the word of God, for example, am I relinquishing my sovereignty?
00:26:17.860And it's, it's an interesting question.
00:26:19.720I don't think you are because you're voluntarily deciding to follow his word, which means you made the decision to do that.
00:26:26.760But it would be like playing on a sports team and thinking that you're relinquishing your ability to play football because you happen to have to memorize the playbook for that, that team.
00:26:37.780Well, it, it, it, it is, um, I, I want to read your book sovereignty and, um, it's such, it's, it's such a, it is such a comprehensive word when you talk about sovereignty, because if we want to talk about, um, the sovereign, the ultimate sovereign, uh, I, I know it's not me.
00:26:59.560Because, um, you know, I, I, I missed this appointment today and so I don't even have control over my own schedule or, or, or, or, or my brain glitches half of the time.
00:27:10.420I'm thinking if I'm in control, there's a lot of things about my life.
00:27:13.440I would snap my fingers and change today.
00:27:15.600So if I want to be sovereign over my own life, um, I, I wouldn't be losing the hair on the top of my head.
00:27:22.620But I, but I recognize that the sovereign has given me freedom and opportunity to do things like come here and talk with you about an important subject, encourage men to be all that God created them to be and to, to, to, to, to bless other people.
00:27:42.640I, I love what you're about and, uh, I appreciate being able to contribute to the conversation.
00:27:46.420In fact, I, I wrote, I wrote a book recently called born to be brave and, uh, and it's really, it's really a call to masculine courage in the context of a culture that is turning many men.
00:27:59.440Um, it's, it's putting them in the corner on the couch, watching the news, getting discouraged, feeling like there's nothing they can do and they're hanging it up and kind of waiting for the end.
00:28:09.540Which if I were the enemy of the United States of America, looking to weaken the forces that will defend what is good and right, I would go after the men.
00:28:19.420And, and not only would I not go after the men, I would empower the women to think they are men.
00:28:24.340I'd take the men and make them think that they're women.
00:28:26.700And then I would get the kids in my school so that in 20 years, those kids are thinking exactly the way that I want them to think.
00:28:42.180And it's like, that's where we are today.
00:28:44.520And so I wrote, I wrote this book to try to share some of the things that give me courage.
00:28:48.880And that set my sights and, and, and, and, you know, calibrate my compass morally and, and spiritually by looking at lessons from legends and, and history's heroes and say, how did they do it?
00:29:01.440How did they come out of their, their stuff when you were talking about the Roman empire on top of you?
00:29:29.800As I was going through your book, I was reminded of something a friend of mine said, uh, his name's Jack Donovan, but he said, uh, and I'm paraphrasing in today's day and age, you have to choose to be a man.
00:29:40.840But before 500 years, a thousand years, 10,000 years ago, you didn't have that choice.
00:30:25.500And, and one of the things he said was, he said, in speaking of the definition of a good man, he was saying this in the context of a culture that's saying, you know, it's, it's better if men weren't so toxically masculine, that they weren't so aggressive.
00:31:15.500A virtuous man, a good man is a man who is principled, who loves his family.
00:31:21.920He, he, he, he, he's not blown left and right by the wind.
00:31:27.200He knows who he is and whose he is and why he's here.
00:31:30.720And he's actually a very lethal and dangerous man to the forces of evil and darkness.
00:31:38.700And he has that power under voluntary control and only uses it when appropriate against whom it is appropriate.
00:31:48.480And he actually bases that off of a, a, a section in the gospel of Matthew chapter five, verse five, where it says, uh, that, that blessed are the meek.
00:31:58.620And many people hear that and what they're hearing in their head is met blessed are the weak.
00:32:03.420And he's saying it's quite the opposite.
00:32:04.860The picture there of meekness is actually that of a Clydesdale like war horse that is just rippling with strength and power to create incredible destruction.
00:32:16.400Yet it stands absolutely still and is under the complete control of its rider, waiting for the slightest indication of his directive to move.
00:32:26.980And he's saying, blessed are those who are under divine control and able to inflict damage to that, which is coming after what is true and beautiful and good, like your family, like your faith, like your freedom, like your opportunity to educate your children and bless other people.
00:33:08.140But if, but if, if you're a woman who is really looking for the life that I believe women are designed to like, like fulfill and to enjoy and to live out.
00:33:21.340If you can do that in partnership with a man who is all of, of, of what a real man is meant to be, my, my, my goodness, you have an adventure and a beautiful story that is sitting in front of you.
00:33:53.380As many of you know, I went through a divorce several years ago.
00:33:57.300And although it's not something I enjoy talking about, especially considering my position here and my belief in the nuclear family, I found that talking about it has opened the door to thousands of men who are willing and open to sharing the pains and the challenges of navigating the breakdown of their committed relationships.
00:34:18.620And that's why I've decided to put together a program that will release next quarter.
00:34:33.640And if I can help you avoid it, I will.
00:34:36.600And if I can use my own experience, painful as it may be to keep you out of it or worst case scenario, navigate it.
00:34:43.320If you do find yourself in that scenario, then that's exactly what I'm going to do.
00:34:47.200So we're in the early stages right now.
00:34:49.840I've talked about this in the past, but we're finally getting going with this and doing it right because it's important.
00:34:54.780And this will likely be the most impactful thing that I have released to date for men.
00:35:00.840So join us early over at divorce, not death.com, divorce, not death.com and be on the lookout in the next 30 to 60 days because we're going to help you navigate.
00:35:12.060Unfortunately, and I have empathy for this, the most painful season of your life.
00:35:31.560It is interesting, though, because you have guys who, and I talk with them every day, who are like, oh, well, you don't need to know how to do this or need to know how to do that.
00:36:18.720What do you think are the things, like maybe just a couple, maybe not the most important, but what are a couple of the things that men ought to make priorities in their life that maybe they don't have to, but you should for the sake of the people in your care?
00:37:48.640It doesn't mean she's a, she's a, you know, a, you know, a, you know, it, it means that she was designed in such a way to where she can't be the sensitive, the soft, the relational, the, the all that I love.
00:38:09.420Because, because I'm an anger guy or because I'm a porn guy or because I'm a, I'm an irresponsible financial guy.
00:38:17.080Now she's got to protect herself financially, mentally, emotionally, sexually, and she can't be the full flower of who she was meant to be.
00:38:34.920Even just what a woman goes through, goes through hormonally when, when she's creating life and what changes or what stressful environments can do to even just the development of that child.
00:38:47.880But it's, but I, but I see that too, not only with growing children in your womb, but also turning a house into a home or infusing life and love into a relationship or bringing an idea in the community to life or serving other ladies in the, in the area.
00:39:04.720You, she can't do that fully if she's not, I was going to say sheltered.
00:39:08.640That's not the right word because it has a negative connotation, but if she's not safe and protected to be able to do what she does best.
00:39:31.840The Vikings were just torching, butchering and pillaging their way through the kingdoms of Britain until they came to the kingdom of Wessex and they faced off with a guy named Alfred.
00:39:46.520And for seven years, he protected his people from the Vikings when, when, when everybody else was dying until he was finally driven from his home on the 12th night of Christmas.
00:39:57.200And everybody thought that he was dead.
00:40:00.040He, he snuck off to a tiny little island on a, in a swamp where he learned how to hunt as a little boy with, with his father.
00:40:06.720And he planned one last battle and he sent out a message to all the faithful men left in Britain who were willing to fight.
00:40:12.620And they met him in the forest and he, he taught them how to lock themselves into this shield wall.
00:40:16.700And he said, men, be faithful to God and he will be faithful to you.
00:40:20.880And, and they charged out on the day of Pentecost, uh, to meet with the Vikings and got into this blood bath battle against the Vikings and their berserkers.
00:40:31.600And it was just horrible, but against all odds, when all hope was lost, Alfred won the battle and the leader of the Vikings was trapped.
00:40:41.300He was forced, forced to surrender or starve to death because he had been surrounded.
00:40:45.460And what Alfred did was totally unexpected.
00:40:49.900The custom would have been to behead him and all of his leaders.
00:40:56.460If he would promise to become a man of God, if he would agree to a treaty that required him to treat all of his citizens, regardless of their ethnic backgrounds or their social backgrounds, economic backgrounds, equally under the law.
00:41:12.960And then he rewrote the law, basing it on Moses's 10 commandments and the Jesus's sermon on the Mount and rebuilt the Navy to combat the Viking long boats and totally revolutionized the churches, the schools and the family in Britain.
00:41:29.180And all of it came back to this idea that God has a purpose for men and men are to be providers and protectors and prophets speaking the truth and priests crying out to God for the blessing and protection of their family.
00:41:43.360And that if he could do that, that he could start a movement that would catch the hearts of young men and women and ignite their minds and they could preserve liberty and freedom for generations.
00:42:21.660Where did he get the vision that he thought it was even possible to dream so big to do that when he was up against the, you know, the biggest superpower in the world, the English Empire or the Roman Empire or the Vikings?
00:42:37.940Well, we are up against armies today that have got many guys feeling so intimidated that they feel like, man, I'm not in charge.
00:42:46.760Well, but one man on a mission with the right motive behind him for the service of other people catches the attention of heaven, I believe.
00:42:57.420And now you've got a force behind you that nobody can stop.
00:43:00.940And you'll inspire others who will join the mission.
00:43:03.400And all of a sudden, you've got a band of brothers.
00:43:12.820And it's also amazing, too, when you think about things like this is because as you do that, you're going to help people that you'll never even meet or know of.
00:43:32.140I like to think about history as being his story.
00:43:35.240That there's an author who's writing all of history, his story, and that you and I and this conversation in this house was written on one of the pages.
00:43:46.580And maybe something that we say that we've learned from somebody else is going to encourage somebody listening to us today who might say something to their son who ends up doing something that changes the trajectory of families and nations in the future.
00:44:32.460That actually resonates with me because that is really all you can control is what you're doing right now.
00:44:37.000To go back to sovereignty, we think, oh, well, I'm going to change this or I'm going to get this person to like me or I'm going to get this person to do that.
00:45:11.740I feel like there's, there is someone who is sovereignly ensuring that I stay alive so that we could have this conversation and then I could go home and I could tell my wife how beautiful she is.
00:45:53.000Uh, are you doing anything like that for your boys?
00:45:54.880Cause I know you've got a children's show and I know making sure, and even in this conversation, we've talked about ensuring that we're educating our children and getting them involved and teaching them and that legacy that comes from that.
00:46:06.060Are there things that you're doing for your three boys to deliberately outside of just your daily conversations and activity, um, foster them becoming men?
00:46:14.640I want to do more, but I am doing some things.
00:46:18.860And for example, uh, I started going hunting with my boys and, and this wasn't an everyday thing for us, but as we got a little bit older, we met some people who like to hunt ducks.
00:46:28.360They've got really long, they've got really long beards.
00:46:41.660And, um, and so we've had a lot of great talks there.
00:46:45.480And one of the great things I love about that is, is it's, it's not whether or not I can bring some deer meat home, although that's a bonus.
00:46:50.740It's the time spent in a stand, in a blind, talking at night and getting my young sons around other men, other good men.
00:46:59.740So that they see that this isn't just dad putting on some show and, and espousing some value set that doesn't really line up with the rest of the guys and the rest of the world, but that there's guys that are like, no, what your dad's saying is right.
00:48:06.740And then another son who actually, uh, loves what we're talking about right now and wants to start a YouTube show that is all about masculinity and what that looks like today for 20 year olds.