Order of Man - LARRY HAGNER ｜ Creating Psychological Safety

00:00:00.520 Psychological safety. It's not something that we think a whole lot about, even though we

00:00:04.740 talk a lot about a man's innate desire to protect those he's closest to. But when it

00:00:09.660 comes to the mental and emotional safety of our loved ones, we often fall short. My guest

00:00:15.300 today is my good friend, Larry Hagner, who is the founder of the Dad Edge and Dad Edge

00:00:19.660 podcast. Today, Larry and I talk about powerful communication strategies with our wife and

00:00:24.520 kids, how crucial climate is when it comes to communicating effectively, how curiosity

00:00:30.100 serves as a powerful lubricant for improving our conversations, and how to effectively

00:00:35.660 create psychological safety for our loved ones to open up to us.

00:00:40.080 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly

00:00:44.700 chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You

00:00:50.500 are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This

00:00:56.740 is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said

00:01:01.760 and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name

00:01:06.480 is Ryan Michler. I'm the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement. Welcome

00:01:11.600 here today. If you're new, it's my job to get incredible men. These are guys who are successful

00:01:16.800 on the business front, the home front, the entrepreneur front, the physical fitness front,

00:01:22.460 you name it. If they're successful in any way, I want to get these guys on the podcast,

00:01:28.260 have good conversations with them, extract some of their knowledge, their wisdom, their information,

00:01:33.820 their failures, their setbacks, and what they've done to succeed in life and deliver that to you.

00:01:38.860 So we've had guys like Ben Shapiro, Andy Frisilla, Jocko Willing, Terry Cruz, Tim Tebow. The lineup

00:01:48.940 of guys that we have on this podcast is phenomenal. So I think the same can be said for my friend,

00:01:54.260 Larry, who's joining us today. Now, before we get into the conversation, just want to mention

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00:02:41.420 lineup, go check out originusa.com originusa.com and use the code order or DER at checkout, because

00:02:49.680 you're going to save some money when you do. All right, guys, let me introduce you to my friend,

00:02:54.080 Larry. We both got our start in the world of podcasting, excuse me, in creating these,

00:02:59.440 these digital movements around the same time, 2015. And he has been a trusted friend, an advocate,

00:03:05.680 and also a coach to me since, and he has made it his life's mission to serve men as it relates to

00:03:11.400 their marriage and fathering their children. He's also the author of his book, the dad edge

00:03:15.840 and his upcoming book early next year, the pursuit of legendary fatherhood guys. Enjoy this one.

00:03:22.780 Larry, what's up, man? Great to see you again. And of course, have you back on the podcast.

00:03:26.600 What's up, man? It's good. Good to see you.

00:03:29.200 It is last time we were in St. Louis, I guess, right? Was it St. Louis that, or did we bump into each

00:03:35.080 other? Yeah, we went to breakfast, but it all kind of started to blend together. I was traveling

00:03:39.060 around so much for a very short period of time. And I'm like, I was in Texas and I was in, I think,

00:03:44.140 Florida. And then I went to St. Louis. I was all over the place for a little period of time. So

00:03:48.440 it's hard to string together when it all blends together like that, you know?

00:03:53.940 Yeah, man. It was, gosh, it was probably six months ago. And you actually introduced me to

00:03:58.760 a Mexican breakfast that I've never had. Well, there you go. Somebody probably introduced that

00:04:04.180 to me because I like when it, not probably, somebody definitely did because when it comes

00:04:08.920 to the logistical side of things, that's just something I do not do. I struggle in that department.

00:04:13.920 Yeah, man. Yeah.

00:04:15.740 All I know is the beans, man. The beans at breakfast made the rest of the day very interesting.

00:04:20.440 I don't remember that, but I'll take your word for it. We'll just go with that. No, it's always

00:04:27.440 good to talk because you and I started, I think you started a little before me, if I remember right,

00:04:34.760 or right around the same time. I can't remember when you started your movement, which was

00:04:37.900 the Good Dad Project initially, and now it's the Dad Edge, right? That's kind of the rebranding that

00:04:43.280 you did over the past several years. Yeah. We actually, you and I met in April of 2015 in a

00:04:48.540 Facebook group where we were rating and reviews everybody's new podcast. And I remember actually

00:04:53.700 coming across yours and I was like, man, this guy's story is so similar to mine.

00:05:01.020 And I just, I loved your story from the get-go. And then that's how you and I connected.

00:05:05.780 Yeah. We've been good friends ever since, helping each other, supporting each other. I've been on your

00:05:09.460 show a couple of times. You've been on my show a couple of times. And then, you know, through the

00:05:13.920 process, you even have a new book I know coming out next year as well. And I've,

00:05:18.260 I've got my book that came out a couple of, about a month ago. Our timetable is just so

00:05:23.360 funny how it overlaps. And it's just, it's, it's kind of like the same trajectory. It seems like.

00:05:28.240 Yeah, man, it is crazy. You know, there's, there are so many similarities and yeah, I mean,

00:05:33.520 my book was, it is weird, man, because I, I knew that you were working on a book, but I didn't know

00:05:38.120 what the launch date was. And then my book was also supposed to come out in September, but

00:05:42.340 unfortunately, um, my publisher went bankrupt. And so that put a, put a, just a kibosh on the

00:05:47.760 whole thing. So I had to, tends to change things around a little bit.

00:05:51.180 Very much so. Yeah.

00:05:52.640 Yeah. What's interesting about that is you and I actually, so I had the same publisher

00:05:57.440 publisher and I was receiving my royalties or so I thought, and all of a sudden royalties

00:06:05.940 shut off. I'm like, wait, what? You're not going to pay my relative royalties for the

00:06:10.560 past year. All right. What are we going to do? And, uh, the gentleman, and I do say gentlemen

00:06:15.400 actually. And I, and I mean that the gentleman, uh, reached out to me and it actually ended up

00:06:21.680 working out for the better because now I own my book and that, that was an awesome benefit,

00:06:27.120 but it's hard in the midst of things, whether it's dealing with kids or relationships or

00:06:32.560 business failures to have an optimistic view of how life is going to be when we're in the

00:06:40.220 midst of baggage and bull crap, but things tend to work out for the better. If you can

00:06:45.080 keep yourself in the game.

00:06:47.100 Yeah. I look at my situation. I look at that situation because I know you had the same

00:06:51.120 publisher and yeah, I know you refer to him as a gentleman. He is a good man. The guy

00:06:54.300 who owns that publishing agency. Uh, I, I was like, man, that really sucks, you know, 0.96

00:07:00.260 but it was a good time to find out. Cause I found out about six weeks before the launch

00:07:03.340 of the book and it gave me, you know, enough time to like, well, what do I want to do here?

00:07:08.740 And obviously being in the podcasting world, uh, you know, I, I was connected to an agent

00:07:12.800 and now that I hired that agent and now that agent is going to work to get us a book

00:07:17.120 deal, uh, with, with one of the big five, hopefully, hopefully. So we're, we should

00:07:22.120 actually, as you and I are recording this, we should actually hear this week, what direction

00:07:25.400 we're going to go in. But yeah, it was a, it was a blessing in disguise. I would have

00:07:28.560 rather come out in September, but blessing in disguise.

00:07:31.300 Of course. Yeah. You, you want it to weigh the work out the way that you want it to work

00:07:35.120 out. And then when you look back, you think, Oh, you know, that actually worked out pretty

00:07:39.980 good in spite of everything I felt like I was going through at the time.

00:07:43.920 Right. Exactly. What's the name? What's the name of the book?

00:07:47.060 It's called the pursuit of legendary fatherhood.

00:07:50.160 Right on, man. I'm stoked to read it. I know you look, I refer so many people your way. Cause

00:07:54.400 obviously this is a big issue for men. How do you be a good father? Um, I didn't really

00:07:59.580 have a framework or a roadmap when I was growing up. I know you didn't as well. And so, man,

00:08:05.060 I failed in so many ways and I fail every day. I failed today. In fact, I can think of,

00:08:10.020 I fail in so many different ways and man, it's one of the most challenging, but gratifying

00:08:13.900 things that you can do as this fatherhood.

00:08:16.260 It is. And that's the thing, man, when, when we come from backgrounds like you and I did,

00:08:20.240 where there really is like no blueprint, there's no, there's no good example. And I love the fact

00:08:26.080 that, I mean, you and I work with men every day, man. And I honestly believe that there's two types

00:08:30.780 of men. There's the men that will lean on that negative experience growing up and just be like,

00:08:35.780 well, I can't, I can never have a successful marriage. I can never be a successful dad. Cause

00:08:39.300 that's what I didn't have. And, or you have the type of guy is like, Nope, I'm going to do this

00:08:44.460 differently because I didn't have a good example growing up and it's going to be different. And

00:08:49.680 I'm going to do the work and I'm going to be diligent about it. And I honestly think that's

00:08:53.440 what you and I have done. And a lot of the men that we lead have done, but you're, you're exactly

00:08:58.580 right. It's totally, it is completely and totally a practice. There isn't one day, man,

00:09:02.740 that I don't just completely and totally fall on my face. And I mean, I even have a course

00:09:08.560 called creating more patients where I teach men how to be more patient and calm with their kids. 0.98

00:09:13.140 And I lose my patients and I'm sitting there thinking like, Holy crap, dude. Like I actually

00:09:17.320 designed a course around this and I can't even take my own advice from time to time.

00:09:22.020 Do you ever feel like you're writing information or putting podcasts out in the world or putting

00:09:26.900 together this course like this or a book where you're actually not doing it for anybody else?

00:09:32.040 And you're like, this is the course that I need. I almost, I almost look at it as public

00:09:37.140 journaling. Yeah. Right. Where it's like, okay, I need, I need help in my relationship. I need help

00:09:43.220 in my business. And so I can bring this individual on, or I need help with fatherhood and I can bring

00:09:46.900 Larry you on. And it's therapeutic for me. I take notes. I always do. I try to implement as much as

00:09:54.580 I can on a regular basis. And it's just, it's, it's like journaling. And then other people

00:10:00.740 hopefully get some value of my own thoughts and my own path that I'm struggling to walk myself.

00:10:06.840 Yeah. Yeah. I selfishly, I always say that the podcast is a front row seat to the most

00:10:14.000 amazing education imaginable. And I know you have felt the exact same way. And the cool thing that

00:10:18.720 I always talk about with the audience or the guys that do live with us or whatever is that

00:10:23.280 they, they get to, we get to go on this journey together, right? We get to learn together,

00:10:27.660 right? We're, we're in the front seat. We're in the, the virtual classroom. We get to learn

00:10:31.240 together. The other thing too, is yes, I do it. I do do it for myself. So even the pursuit of

00:10:38.160 legendary fatherhood, I had all these ideas and all these concepts and all these things that we've

00:10:42.440 been doing over the years, but I never had a place where I could actually put everything that

00:10:47.460 we've done over the past seven years. And then one final quick story, I'll never forget when I

00:10:52.980 launched the dad edge book back in 2015. And that's, as I look back on it now, that's like

00:10:57.480 the most basic dad book. Like it's like, I feel like that was kindergarten and now we're

00:11:02.620 college level as far as information goes. But I was talking to a coach of mine one time

00:11:06.860 and I was still in the infancy stage of good dad and still in the, I mean, I think I was only

00:11:12.020 podcasting for maybe five months. And I remember getting on a call with a coach and I was like,

00:11:16.520 man, I don't know if I want to hit the publish button on this book. And he's like, why not?

00:11:20.260 I was like, well, I'm really putting myself out there. There's a lot of information in this book,

00:11:24.460 like where I'm just an idiot and that kind of thing. And what if it's received horrible? What 0.78

00:11:29.960 if I get all these bad reviews? Like what if it just sucks, right? It's like all these imposter 1.00

00:11:33.600 things going on. And my mentor looked at me and he goes, he goes, let me ask you a question. He goes,

00:11:39.000 if you help one man, just one man completely pivot his life, was it worth it? And I was like, yeah,

00:11:46.560 yeah, it was worth it. And he goes, well, let me ask you this. He goes,

00:11:49.120 writing this book. Did it help you become a better father? Was it almost like your mission

00:11:54.760 statement in a book? And I was like, yeah, that's exactly what it was. And he goes, then who cares?

00:12:00.900 Who cares? And I don't know what it was about him saying that, but I was like,

00:12:04.980 publish, right? Who cares what happens? This has improved my life. And I think it'll improve one,

00:12:11.960 right? So yeah.

00:12:12.640 Well, so what's changed between what you wrote in 2015, where you said you felt like that was

00:12:18.440 kindergarten class to now you're talking about college level classes. So, cause look, honestly,

00:12:24.920 I, I think of the advice that we share and I'm trying to be as objective as possible.

00:12:29.820 And this might diminish what we do, but it's, it's true in my mind anyways,

00:12:32.940 like we all know what it means to be a good man. We all know basically things we should do to be

00:12:40.300 good fathers, right? If I, if I were to think of two to five things, I would say make sure that you

00:12:45.660 communicate, make sure that you look at the way you father from a long-term perspective,

00:12:53.080 not just what is immediate gratification for you or them. Be willing to have hard conversations

00:12:58.620 and then introduce them to challenging experiences in life that they can overcome with your guidance

00:13:06.300 and direction. And, you know, but that's pretty general. It's just guys have a really, and I say

00:13:12.700 guys, but me included have a hard time following sometimes even our own advice. So what's changed

00:13:18.880 between kindergarten and now this college class, there's been so much that has changed. And I love

00:13:25.780 the analogy that you talk about. Like we all know what it means to be a good man. And let me,

00:13:29.320 let me bring this back to something that you love, right? Which is jujitsu. I'm actually getting

00:13:34.060 ready to start jujitsu myself. I, I, dude, you're going to be a force to be reckoned with. I can't

00:13:38.140 wait for those guns. I can see those guns, man. You and your son bodybuilding and yeah, we'll have to

00:13:43.380 get on the mats at some point. That'd be for you. You will completely decimate me. I'm sure.

00:13:48.120 Well, just in the first, I don't know, a few months. And then after you have a few months under your,

00:13:51.920 under your belt, then I won't get on the mats with you anymore. But those, I want you the

00:13:55.640 first few months though. You're mine. All right. Okay. Good deal, man. You know, I,

00:13:59.960 I did 10 years of martial arts from like 1999 to like 2010 for so about 11 years. And here's where

00:14:08.140 I'll tell you, like going back to, you know, what it, let me, let me talk about what it means to be

00:14:12.480 a good man first. Right. Everyone, I think every man knows like, Hey, I kind of know what this means

00:14:16.840 to be a good man. Right. I know what that looks like, but, and think about it from self-defense,

00:14:22.380 right. Take someone who's never learned Brazilian jujitsu. And they're like, okay,

00:14:27.060 if somebody attacks me, I have an idea of how I would defend myself. But tactically,

00:14:33.500 I don't think I could do it if I was in the heat of it because my adrenaline would be going,

00:14:38.740 I might freak out. Or what if this guy does this? I don't know how to defend against that. It's like

00:14:43.160 all these things, right. That, that we just don't know at a, at a high level. It's like, okay,

00:14:47.060 I know self, I have an idea of what self-defense is, but tactically in the trenches when I'm faced

00:14:52.240 with it, like, man, I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. So Brazilian jujitsu,

00:14:57.000 obviously it takes you, right. And it takes you, it, it, it gives you the skills and the resources

00:15:02.520 from a tactical standpoint of when this guy does this, you do this. When you're on top, you do that.

00:15:07.900 When you feel this guy move this way, you go this way. So it's a very tactical thing. So

00:15:11.920 what dad edge was, I think back in 2015, if, even if I take that book right in kindergarten,

00:15:16.880 it was more like, Hey, this is the overall theme of like what it means to connect with your kids.

00:15:23.220 But I think the big miss in that book was, well, how do I do that from a tactical standpoint?

00:15:27.780 Same thing with a marriage, right? How do I connect with my wife from a tactical standpoint? 0.87

00:15:32.260 I missed the mark on that in that book. Cause I didn't know what I didn't know at the time.

00:15:35.900 Well, now we have a plethora, you know, of skills that we teach men, you know,

00:15:40.740 as far as marriage goes. And we have nine different, I have an, I have a, an entire course

00:15:45.300 on nine different skillsets to teach men how to come, how to better communicate with their wife,

00:15:49.540 right. And how to better connect with their kids, how to create an environment of psychological

00:15:53.340 safety where your kids are going to tell you more things. So things like that, that are more tactical

00:15:57.520 versus more broad.

00:16:00.360 Hmm. I like that analogy. I wrote down as you were talking about the martial arts thing is just

00:16:05.200 the difference is knowledge versus wisdom, right? We like, we all know, like you said,

00:16:10.320 if I get in a fight, I make a fist and I punch like that sounds right. But then you've never done

00:16:18.580 it before potentially. And so that's where the wisdom comes in. And what I wrote here is that

00:16:23.100 when you, you train jujitsu, for example, or another martial art, it helps you to understand

00:16:29.320 the variables that you can't see when you're watching a movie.

00:16:34.340 Yep.

00:16:34.740 Cause you look at a choreographed fight and you think, Oh, well I can do that.

00:16:38.560 But what you don't recognize because it's a movie and it's not real is that the way that your body

00:16:44.960 is responding, the fight or flight mentality, the way that individual is responding, you know,

00:16:50.700 there are no two people fight the same, right? So the way that person, um, how it feels when you're

00:16:55.700 exhausted, you're out of breath. How do you calculate for that? How do you calculate for a guy

00:17:00.580 who's 30, 40, 50 pounds heavier than you or stronger than you? You know, you can't account

00:17:05.800 for those things. And I think the way that translates into fatherhood is how do you, we all know, okay,

00:17:13.240 you need to be empathetic to your children, especially as you're dealing with stuff.

00:17:16.100 But how do you do that when you're pissed off at them because they just yelled at you or their

00:17:20.900 mother? Yep. 1.00

00:17:22.560 That's a variable that you throw that little wrench into the equation and it changes everything.

00:17:27.820 It totally does. I mean, that's the thing when we're at a heightened, so if you look at the,

00:17:33.600 the two most important relationships in our life, right? Marriage and with our kids, it's like you

00:17:39.740 said, it's an incredible experience, right? From a father perspective, from a husband perspective,

00:17:44.180 it's one of the most incredible experiences that we'll, we'll have as men, right? And it's an

00:17:50.260 incredible relationship that we'll have. However, it's also dynamic and it's highly emotionally

00:17:56.560 charged, right? So no, there's probably no other human beings on the planet that can get under our

00:18:02.800 skin, like our kids, right? And there's no one else on the planet that we love more or like that

00:18:08.220 we love our kids. The same with our wives. You know, I, I work, I would say one thing we do in

00:18:13.240 Dad Edge that we really focus on, we actually have hard data on this. 80% of men who come to Dad Edge

00:18:20.380 want to create a better marriage. 80%, eight out of 10 guys. So that is what's on their mind and

00:18:25.840 heart is marriage. But the thing is, is that no one knows exactly what that looks like. So like,

00:18:32.900 you know, you were in the military. We're, we're coming up actually, as we're recording on Veterans

00:18:36.200 Day. Marriage in our society is a lot like you walk down the aisle, you say, I do, you get pats on

00:18:44.240 the back. Hey man, this would be the best time of your whole life. Don't worry. You'll figure it out.

00:18:47.860 I look at somebody like you, Ryan, who served in the military. Can you imagine showing up to basic

00:18:52.260 training? And they're like, Hey man, there's no basic training anymore, but here's your firearm.

00:18:56.860 You know, here's your uniform. We're going to deploy you, but don't worry. You'll figure it out.

00:19:00.020 Best time of your whole life. You'll figure it out. Like we don't do that. Right. You even need,

00:19:03.620 you even need to take a test and you need to be in a car with a, with a police officer for them to sign

00:19:11.640 off on you saying like, yes, you are capable and able to drive a vehicle in this state.

00:19:17.120 But when it comes to marriage, like I honestly think, man, if every single married couple,

00:19:22.960 every engaged couple was required to learn at least two or three skills within communication

00:19:29.600 or, or conflict resolution, I think the divorce rate would actually decrease quite a bit,

00:19:35.840 but that's the thing. We just, we were not teaching these couples skills.

00:19:38.940 Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm writing this down. Uh, the other one I think of is emotional maturity.

00:19:47.220 That's the one that gets to me. Like I I'm, I'm pretty, well, I can be pretty stoic,

00:19:54.420 but I can also be pretty emotional. And I don't mean I'm slobbering and crying and babbling on like

00:20:01.600 an idiot. That's not one, but I can let my emotions get the better of me. And it usually manifests itself 0.99

00:20:07.140 in frustration and anger. Yeah. And, and I, I think, you know, in addition to what you're

00:20:12.480 saying, communication skills, uh, communication skills, conflict resolution is emotional maturity.

00:20:18.940 Yep. And, and I'm, I'm looking at that even in my own relationship with my wife and kids is like,

00:20:23.860 all right, when my wife says something, how easily do I get triggered by that? And then I take it out

00:20:30.460 of context. I usually will create my own context. You might mean something and I'll make it mean

00:20:34.620 something completely different and that's emotional. And then I try to justify it in my

00:20:38.880 mind. I do the same thing with my kids and then I take things personally. And then I go on the attack

00:20:43.680 rather than just saying, you know, tell me more about that. Like, that's a great, that question

00:20:48.080 right there alone is, Oh, you're upset. Tell me more about that. I don't, I want to understand

00:20:52.820 that question alone, man, that's been really helpful. I wish I could say that I am better at that

00:20:58.600 than I am though. Again, this is what we're saying. Like, this is the therapeutic side of it is like,

00:21:03.580 I need this more so than any other guy listening. I'm sure of it.

00:21:07.900 And you just nailed something right there. I mean, one, just one of the skills that we,

00:21:12.380 and this is like super, super simple, but we all miss it big time. If you replace the word, why

00:21:19.400 with tell me more, the impact and how that lands for either your kids or your wife is completely

00:21:26.100 different. So why actually psychologically put someone in a corner? Why do you feel that way?

00:21:31.140 Why did you do that? It literally brings us back to like our two-year-old selves when our

00:21:34.640 parents would point at us, be like, why are you crying? You know, why did you do that?

00:21:38.780 You know, so the word why actually puts a human being on the defense, especially kids or your

00:21:42.780 wife or whatever, but tell me more is an invite. Tell me more. I want to know. Right. And it gets

00:21:49.800 you actually better information and it'll, it will actually calm the other person down. They'll feel

00:21:54.940 more comfortable telling you whatever it is that they want to tell you. I mean, think about it.

00:21:58.280 When someone asks us, Hey, Hey Ryan, why did you do that? Or, Hey Ryan, I saw that you did that.

00:22:02.860 Tell me about that. It's a totally different feeling than the why question.

00:22:08.840 Yeah. That's a good point. I also think it's going to, I think the reason it probably leads

00:22:14.040 to clarity and calmness, I should say calmness for them is sometimes if people were to ask me,

00:22:20.440 if I got emotional and you said to me, Hey Ryan, tell me more about that.

00:22:24.380 I don't know if I could immediately because I probably just reacted emotionally and I'm like,

00:22:29.700 I don't know. I can't explain it. Yeah. And the same is true. Maybe with our wives and our children

00:22:34.780 is like, okay, you did this thing. Tell me more about why you're feeling like that. Well, I don't

00:22:39.300 know. I just did. Okay. And you get them to actually start to work through it themselves.

00:22:43.840 I do see one of the traps that I fall into is sometimes a line of questioning comes across as

00:22:50.740 either calculated or manipulating or robotic or some sort of, I have an agenda and I'm trying to get

00:23:05.400 to the bottom of it to, for my own good, not necessarily for yours.

00:23:10.340 You know, it's interesting you say that because, um, I just interviewed, uh, Lisa DeMoore who

00:23:15.520 wrote the book untangled. I don't know if you've heard of that book, but it's all about, yeah,

00:23:19.620 it's all about raising teenage daughters, uh, and the stages that they go through. But here's the

00:23:23.840 interesting thing before we hit the record button on that podcast. Uh, she told me, she's like,

00:23:29.480 you know, Hey, I know that this is written for girls, but these rules are still the same for boys,

00:23:34.080 but here's the interesting thing about questions, right? In our dad brains, right? I'm going to ask

00:23:39.380 my, and this could be also be tweens, right? So 10, 11, 12, 13 years old, whatever. In our dad brains,

00:23:45.020 we're like, I want to connect with this kid. So I'm going to ask him or her some questions,

00:23:50.680 but the way that lands for them, depending on the questions or depending on the voice tone or

00:23:55.140 depending on the environment is why are you interrogating me? What's your agenda? What do

00:24:00.220 you want to know? You know? And then that's when they're like, this is annoying. Like that's what,

00:24:04.580 how our kids will, will, uh, will interpret stuff like that. So that was, that was fascinating to

00:24:10.220 learn as well. So you're, you're exactly right. And especially with our older kids,

00:24:13.300 we gotta be super careful. Some, we gotta be careful about the environment. We gotta be careful

00:24:17.720 about the questions sometimes because we'll put them actually on the defense and we don't,

00:24:21.220 we won't even know it and they can't even articulate it either. They just know that they're

00:24:24.940 like, why are you asking me this? And they're just like, kind of like back like this.

00:24:29.320 How do you know though? How do you know? I mean, obviously you can look for feedback,

00:24:33.640 right? If they're detached or withdrawing, then that's an indicator that something's not working.

00:24:38.820 Yeah. But how do you know how you're coming across to your wife or to your children?

00:24:43.140 So I, so let me take the kids first. So like, I'll like my, my 16 year old, dude,

00:24:49.000 he, that kid, his two favorite words, man, are let's talk. I'm, I'm completely floored by that

00:24:57.440 one because like, he wants to, he likes to talk. He wants to. Yeah. He's like, but he's also has

00:25:01.760 the type of personality though, where he thinks out loud. So for him talking gives him clarity,

00:25:06.860 but I, but every night before bed, let's talk like, and we spend 15 minutes talking.

00:25:12.140 I it's effortless with him. Now I think he's an anomaly and I think that's just his personality.

00:25:17.580 And I think the reason he likes to talk is because he likes to get clarity and he gets his thoughts

00:25:21.560 out. And I'm a 14 year old man. He's your typical teenager. He's, he's stoic. He's quiet,

00:25:28.320 you know, and there's, it's like a pry bar sometimes. And the one thing I've noticed with

00:25:33.100 his personality type is number one, I can't take it personally. If he doesn't want to talk in the

00:25:37.600 moment that I want to talk. Yeah. Good point. It's just, my job is to show him that I'm there

00:25:45.440 when he wants to, and to extend the invite when he wants to. But here's another really cool thing.

00:25:52.100 If I like, so let's just say, I want to have a connected conversation with my 14 year old,

00:25:57.520 right? If I take my 16 year old out to Buffalo wild wings, it's easy, right? We talk about

00:26:02.440 everything, right? For my 14 year old, that's very intimidating for us to sit across from each

00:26:07.440 other right away. So for him, the best thing that we can do is to do an activity first,

00:26:12.440 because that, that's what actually brings him connection. I know for you, Ryan, like one of

00:26:16.700 the biggest things you do with your boys is like hunting, right? And you do all kinds of different

00:26:19.720 things. But I would imagine that when you're on hunting trips with your boys or doing something

00:26:25.440 like that, or doing something physical, like I know you train with your boys. I train with my boys

00:26:28.860 that some of the best conversations and the best connections actually are happening usually during that

00:26:35.800 time or right after that time. It's never usually when I want to sit down and be like, Hey man,

00:26:40.140 I want to talk to you about a few things. Boom. Usually that garage door is shut. Yeah. So the

00:26:44.980 activity comes first, the connection comes first, and then we get to connect after that if he wants to.

00:26:51.640 Yeah, that's good. I, my, my two oldest sons are like your 14 year old where I'll ask, Hey,

00:26:59.240 how's your day? Good. What was your favorite part? Oh, this one thing. Care to elaborate? No,

00:27:05.300 I'm good. What's on your mind. What are you thinking about? Nothing. It's like, I'm going

00:27:09.540 to bring your neck because I, I, I'm more like your 16 year old. Yeah. I like to talk. And every

00:27:16.920 time I talk, even if they're difficult conversations, I just, I feel better. If I talk, I just feel

00:27:22.980 better, but that's not how it goes in my household with mom or the kids, except for my daughter. My

00:27:30.420 daughter's a talker. She's like me. Uh, so it tends to be a challenge at times. A lot of the times it

00:27:37.420 really does. Cause I want to talk and nobody seems to want to talk. Yeah. And you know, I'm, I'm kind

00:27:42.920 of the same. Well, I guess mine is, it kind of depends on my mood, but you know, like for my wife,

00:27:47.220 my wife and my 14 year old are, have extremely similar personalities. They're, they're, they're

00:27:53.100 very stoic. Uh, they're introverted, they're quiet and they do not like to be pried open for

00:27:58.540 information. So like, for instance, if I want to have a really good conversation, like if I go out

00:28:02.860 to my wife right now and you know, she's, she's out there working on the house she's doing, she's 0.87

00:28:07.260 trying to like literally sprint to get things done before the kids get, get home from school.

00:28:12.180 Now, if I sit down and be like, Hey, you want to talk about a few things? She'll be like bad tiny. 1.00

00:28:16.420 Yeah. I'm like right in the middle of things. Right now. However, if I take her like, like this

00:28:21.320 Friday, I take every Friday a half day and she and I have a date date and our day date. And so what

00:28:26.980 I've noticed is if she and I go on a hike, we go work out, uh, we go for a walk or something like

00:28:33.820 that. It's like suddenly she wants to talk about everything. Right. And that's because those

00:28:39.340 distractions aren't around. Uh, we're, we're sharing in an experience together, which one, like one of the

00:28:45.480 things we teach, you know, we talk about tactical skills, right? What we're really talking about here

00:28:48.640 is psychological safety. And that's one of the things that, that we teach quite a bit is how to

00:28:52.780 create an environment of psychological safety with either your wife or your kids, where they want to

00:28:55.940 open up and talk to you and where you can connect. Right. And it doesn't, you know, human beings are

00:29:00.860 like, well, I want to connect and I want to, I want to have a conversation. So I'm just going to

00:29:04.720 barrel in and we're going to have this conversation. That's what we call going to a conversation

00:29:08.440 with expectation and agenda. Right. And people sense that a mile away. And, but if you go to a

00:29:13.320 conversation with the right environment and instead of expectation, you go with appreciation and

00:29:17.720 curiosity, you're going to have a way better conversation and you're going to have a way

00:29:22.540 better connection. All right, man, let me hit the pause button on the conversation. I got to ask,

00:29:27.920 are you ready for whatever life has to throw your way in any given moment? How do you know? And how do

00:29:34.160 you know that you'll have what it takes to tackle life's toughest challenges? That's where our free

00:29:39.160 course 30 days to battle ready comes into play because when you sign up, you're going to receive

00:29:43.520 access to 17 emails designed to get you to answer some of the toughest questions you can. And more

00:29:50.620 importantly, formulate a plan to take on all of life's biggest obstacles on your feet. Again, guys,

00:29:57.320 this is a free program and it's going to set you up perfectly for the end of this year, a couple more

00:30:01.900 months left and the new year, as we think about rolling into 2023, again, it's called 30 days to

00:30:06.980 battle ready. And you can get signed up at order a man.com slash battle ready. Again, order a man.com

00:30:13.780 slash battle ready. Do that right after the show for now. Let's get back to it with Larry.

00:30:19.240 I like that. So no agenda you talked about, you go into it with appreciation and curiosity.

00:30:23.840 Curiosity is such a great word. I mean, it's not just the word obviously, but the meaning behind it,

00:30:28.760 it's such a powerful way to, it's almost weird saying that as a tactic. Cause you said, here's some

00:30:34.660 tactic, go with curiosity, but you can't really, if, if you make it too much of a tactic,

00:30:41.120 then it actually is the opposite of curiosity. Yeah. Cause curiosity is just, it's genuine. Like

00:30:47.800 I care about you, right? Like Larry, I care about you. So I'm genuinely curious about what you have

00:30:54.160 to say. This is not an agenda. I did not come to this conversation with a bullet points that I

00:31:00.320 wanted to cover. I didn't come with predetermined questions because I care too much about you for

00:31:06.560 that. But then we do it in the conversations that we have with our wives and our kids and our

00:31:13.100 employees or our clients. That's why I completely got away from asking canned questions and conversations

00:31:19.500 because it blows up the conversation before it even had a chance to turn into something

00:31:24.820 really, really meaningful. Yep. You're exactly right. I, I do that in podcast. You do it in

00:31:31.880 podcasts. I do it in podcasts. I have noticed in, this is kind of in the early days. And I know you

00:31:37.180 probably did the same thing I did is I would do all my homework on these guests, right? I'd have my

00:31:41.420 agenda and then I have an expectation of how this podcast is going to turn out. And here's the crazy

00:31:47.140 thing. When I stuck to my agenda, it felt awkward. I could tell it felt awkward for the other person.

00:31:52.480 It felt robotic. It didn't feel genuine. It didn't feel like we even connected or whatever.

00:31:57.040 And what I do now is I do minimum, I do homework on these people, but I want to go, I always tell,

00:32:02.900 I always ask the person if we were celebrating the most amazing interview at the end of this

00:32:07.500 interview, what are you telling me we talked about that's most meaningful to you? And then they'll just

00:32:11.960 give me some high level themes that they really, really want to talk about. And then as soon as I

00:32:16.680 see them like come to life and their energy goes up, that's where I really dive in and go, go hard,

00:32:21.480 go deeper, right? Because that's where, that's where that connection really is. And the funny

00:32:26.600 thing is, is I'm sure you've heard this a million times. I've heard it and some, and it, it still

00:32:31.160 surprises me sometimes. I'll get off of a podcast and they'll be like, dude, like even you interviewed

00:32:36.940 Matthew McConaughey, I interviewed him. And after we stopped hitting the record button, he's like,

00:32:40.640 dude, he's like, I've done thousands of interviews. He goes, how long have you been doing this for?

00:32:44.720 And I was like, six years. He's like, you're one of the best interviewers I have ever come across.

00:32:49.540 I was like, holy shit, man. I wish I would have that still recorded. Right. But I even asked him, 0.97

00:32:53.880 I was like, why do you say that? He's like, cause it felt like a conversation. It just felt like we

00:32:57.980 were talking like over coffee. It didn't feel like you were trying to like come in with all these

00:33:02.200 questions. And he even used the word your agenda. You know, it was a conversation and I, and the same

00:33:08.280 holds true in our personal relationships. Yeah. Good point. How do you, one thing I want to pivot a

00:33:13.260 little bit on the conversation topic, let's say that you get your, your wife opens up to you or

00:33:19.300 your kids open up to you or anybody. It doesn't really matter. How do you keep your cool in heated

00:33:25.560 moments? Because I know that's an issue for a lot of guys is, you know, your wife's going to come at

00:33:32.060 you and say something that you're not going to like. Your kids are going to say things that you're not

00:33:35.040 excited about. So how do you maintain that emotional maturity and coolness when you do get triggered

00:33:41.400 and upset by the conversation that's taking place? Because I, I, and I just want to put a little

00:33:46.320 frame on this is you're talking about psychological safety. If you blow up, that's the antithesis of

00:33:53.300 safety. Yep. And you're going to train people not to talk to you anymore. Yeah. I mean, I, I think you

00:34:00.500 probably grew up the same way I did. And basically the message was don't come and talk to me about

00:34:05.800 things that are really big and impersonal because I'm going to probably blow up, throw it in your face or

00:34:11.060 something like that. And also like, if I felt a certain way about something growing up, it was

00:34:15.820 wrong. Right. You're wrong for feeling that right. Shame on you. How dare you? Right. So, you know,

00:34:20.820 to answer your question, a lot of it has to do with, um, so it's very hard, especially if it's

00:34:28.080 something that's like going for the jugular or something like, Oh man, like that's really,

00:34:33.080 really difficult. I'll give you, um, I'll give you an example of a skill that we learned from a

00:34:37.700 company called clear leadership. Um, and we always have to give them credibility or credit.

00:34:42.500 We're credit to clear leadership.com. We are coached on a skillset called the cube. Have

00:34:46.540 you ever heard of the cube? I don't think so. Maybe. Yeah. So the cube is a four-step process.

00:34:52.900 It's, it's actually very easy of how to have triggered conversations or how to have intense

00:34:58.920 conversations. So it's a four-step process around observations, thoughts, feelings, and wants.

00:35:05.740 So if you let's, let's just take this as an example of a triggered conversation or where I

00:35:10.680 could get triggered or my wife could get triggered. This is a true story. Let's just say that my wife

00:35:16.060 and I haven't been intimate for a while. Right. Maybe, you know, we, we average a couple of times

00:35:20.420 a week. I think we went, this was months and months ago. We went like, God, man, we went like,

00:35:25.500 we're doing like once a month, like maybe every two weeks. And I was, I was kind of getting

00:35:29.900 concerned. I was like, man, this is kind of crazy. Like, and then the stories like start to roll in.

00:35:34.480 Right. We've been together for 26 years and maybe I'm old news. Right. Maybe she just doesn't like

00:35:41.240 me anymore. Like all these things I was telling. Maybe she's sleeping around or, you know, there's

00:35:44.980 all sorts of stories we come up with. Right. All kinds of crazy things. Right. Which made me

00:35:49.640 triggered before I even had the conversation. Right. So, um, I wanted to open up the conversation

00:35:55.380 with her. Now, before learning that skill, most human beings, most men and me included would go into

00:36:01.300 that conversation and be like, Hey, why aren't we having sex that often anymore? Like, I don't

00:36:05.340 understand what's going on. You know, are you not attracted to me? Are you too tired? Like

00:36:09.760 is the stress level too high? Like what's going on? Right. Now, how that's going to land for my wife 1.00

00:36:15.640 is, is terrible. She's going to automatically get on the defensive and we're probably going to have a 1.00

00:36:20.460 really triggered conversation where it's actually going to disconnect us more than connect us.

00:36:24.460 Hmm. So the whole point of the cube is to actually keep calm. Right. And it's, it's GPS for triggered

00:36:31.360 conversations. You actually know exactly where you're at in the conversation by the cube. So

00:36:35.020 the observation, this is what it would look like. So I gave you an example of what bad looks like.

00:36:39.360 This is what something good looks like. So I'll start with an observation

00:36:42.040 and the right voice tone. Hey, I've noticed over the past few months that our intimacy hasn't been

00:36:50.480 nearly as frequent as it used to be. That's an observation, right? She can agree to it. And so

00:36:56.560 can I. Sure. The thought I have now, the difference between a thought and a feeling is a thought as a

00:37:01.440 sentence and a feeling as a word. So, but a lot of people get this screwed up and be like, I feel

00:37:05.780 like you don't love me anymore. Or I feel like you're not attracted to me. That's not a feeling.

00:37:09.580 That's actually a thought. So how I transitioned from observation to thought is I say something like,

00:37:14.620 I've noticed that we just haven't been intimate as frequently over the past couple of months.

00:37:18.600 And the story that I'm telling myself, the thoughts that I have around that is

00:37:21.880 maybe you're not as attracted to me as you used to be. And that's the own story I'm telling myself.

00:37:28.320 That's my own stupid insecurities coming out. Or maybe it's the fact that we're just so busy and 0.99

00:37:33.200 we're so exhausted by the end of the day. Or maybe it's because, you know, maybe our sex life has

00:37:38.080 gotten routine. So those are the three thoughts. The feeling then how I feel about that is I feel

00:37:44.220 frustrated and I feel a little rejected. Yeah. And then you go to the want, right? Because what

00:37:51.840 I truly want is to be more intimate with you more often because that's when I feel we're the closest.

00:37:57.940 Now, when I end off with the want, here's how that lands, right? When I end off with the want

00:38:02.540 versus like her feeling like I'm attacking, like, but why are we having sex anymore?

00:38:06.000 In her mind, usually what happens in that conversation is the want that you have is

00:38:10.920 usually not always, but usually someone in line with what they want to, or that the way it lands

00:38:17.160 for them is they're at least going to be less defensive. And the way my wife responded to that, 1.00

00:38:21.640 she's like, you're absolutely right. And the story that you're telling yourself isn't true.

00:38:25.740 I'm very attracted to you. I've just been so tired. We've been so busy. And by the time it gets

00:38:30.660 to be night, like I'm exhausted. And the actual solution that we came after that conversation

00:38:37.460 was let's just not have sex at night anymore. Cause we're both tired. Let's just have sex during 0.58

00:38:42.260 the day. So the cool thing that we, the, the agreement that we made was, is like, let's just 0.87

00:38:46.200 take it off the table, take the pressure off at night. Cause it's too, it's, we're just too tired,

00:38:50.500 but let's have all the sex we want during the day. The kids are in school. So that's what we agreed 0.88

00:38:54.720 on. Okay. So that's, that's awesome. It worked like it was supposed to, right? But what happens

00:39:03.820 when it doesn't? Cause I mean, that's a powerful framework, the cube. I like that. I wrote that

00:39:08.100 down. So let's say you use this cube type method. And again, I'm, I'm even hesitant. I don't even

00:39:14.420 like calling it the cube because then it's a tactic and it just, it is, it can be used tactically,

00:39:23.160 but if you use it as a tactic, then I think it loses some of his, his genuineness. Right.

00:39:28.160 Right. So that's just one thing I think we need to be aware of, but let's say it doesn't work out

00:39:32.300 like that. You go through the observation, you go through the thoughts, you go through the feelings

00:39:35.460 and the wants, and let's say a partner's wants are different. Or let's say that your thoughts of

00:39:41.940 I'm not attractive anymore. She's like, yeah, that's exactly right. And it doesn't work out.

00:39:48.800 Like you just explained, like, what do you do from there?

00:39:51.280 Yeah. Because we've all had conversations like that where we're not aligned, we're not on the

00:39:55.720 same page. Let me talk quickly about the tactic part of it. And then I'll get to the, um, to,

00:40:00.820 to when this doesn't work out the way you want it. Cause man, do I get a load of those stories too?

00:40:05.320 Yeah. So tactically, like, let's go back to Brazilian jujitsu, right? When you learn a rear

00:40:11.480 naked choke, right. For the first time, you're like, okay. And I, to be honest, I don't know how to do

00:40:15.800 it, Ryan. So like, I'm okay. I got to do this and I got to put my arm here. And then I have to like

00:40:19.740 put the other arm here and then on the back of his neck. And then I got to bear down. So like

00:40:24.120 tactically, you're going through the steps one by one. Okay. This is what I do. So it's, it's,

00:40:28.380 it's, you're not in flow state. It doesn't come naturally and it feels awkward and clunky at first,

00:40:33.960 right? Because it's kind of a tactic. Now for you, you've been doing jujitsu, how long?

00:40:39.780 Uh, about three and a half, almost four years now.

00:40:42.080 Okay. So for you to throw in a rear naked choke, you probably don't even really have to even think

00:40:47.720 about it at this point. Right. Yeah. It's just part of how you operate now. And it's part of how

00:40:52.680 you do jujitsu tactically. When people first start learning these things, the feedback is this feels

00:40:58.320 really awkward. Well, good. It absolutely should because you haven't done it. It's a skill that you

00:41:02.760 haven't, but over time it just becomes the way you communicate. And for you, it just becomes the way

00:41:08.860 you defend yourself. So yeah, tactically it feels really awkward at first. And over time,

00:41:14.200 it just becomes a part of who you are now when things don't go the way that you want it and they

00:41:19.300 will. Right. So that's when, so like, if you're, if, if Jessica were to tell me like, yeah, you know,

00:41:27.660 it really boils down to, I haven't been as attracted to you as I used to be. And I'll be really honest,

00:41:35.000 Ryan, you know, we've gone through conversations like that.

00:41:37.560 I've had, I've had that conversation with my wife a hundred percent. I think most guys have,

00:41:41.880 I'm sure of it.

00:41:42.900 Yeah. And this is where you really have to be. This is where curiosity and appreciation

00:41:48.380 really comes into play. Let me caution you with this too. Just because your wife is going to give 0.94

00:41:53.800 you feedback like this, that does not mean you're a doormat. That doesn't mean she talks to you

00:41:58.180 disrespectfully. My wife talks to me very respectfully, right? A lot of guys think like, well, if I ask for

00:42:03.300 feedback and I'm curious and I'm appreciative, then I can, she can just treat me however she wants. 0.79

00:42:07.280 She can call me names and walk all over me. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Okay. There 1.00

00:42:12.300 are boundaries that we operate within. So if I asked my wife, which I have, right. So she's like, 0.99

00:42:18.040 yeah, you know, I, to be honest, like, I, I'm just, I haven't been as attracted to you as I used to be. 0.74

00:42:23.240 Now for me, I'm like, yeah, it sucks. That stings. Right. And you're like, okay,

00:42:29.480 now here's, here's where I think men are, can be more evolved. Like, you know, you and I have been

00:42:35.780 doing this work for a long time. So I think for you and I, we can have conversations like that,

00:42:40.160 where it feels maybe a little bit more objective versus like, it still stings and it still sucks. 0.94

00:42:45.720 And it really freaking hurts. But at the same time, you're like, okay, I also know on the other side

00:42:50.500 of this feedback, I'm going to learn something and I'll learn what's going on for her because I'd

00:42:55.640 rather know than not know. So my wife, I also think Larry on that, just to interject real quick. 1.00

00:43:00.660 I also think that if we're being honest, the majority of the time we feel the same way,

00:43:07.640 you know, like the not attractive, I'd be willing to bet. Cause I know I have where I've put on,

00:43:12.920 you know, 20, 30 pounds and she's like, yeah, I'm just not as attracted to you. Or sex is kind of 1.00

00:43:18.600 awkward, you know, cause you're 30 pounds heavier. Like, okay. That's it. But if I look in the 0.89

00:43:23.740 mirror, I, I know that it's gotten at hand for me too. Yeah. And so if she's giving you that feedback,

00:43:32.660 that's good. She's actually giving you a roadmap. Yeah. Cause now, you know, okay, well,

00:43:38.880 she doesn't like the pot belly. What woman does, is there a woman? No. And also you probably don't 0.99

00:43:45.880 feel great about yourself either. So it's a win-win and at least she's willing to communicate.

00:43:51.340 What if she didn't communicate it with you? That's more dangerous. I think so. Totally more

00:43:56.620 dangerous. Um, you know, the feedback my wife gave me was earlier this year. Cause like I felt

00:44:02.500 distance between us. I did the exact same thing. This, this conversation was a real conversation

00:44:07.480 that we had last spring. I was in the best shape of my life. Cause I was getting ready for a show with

00:44:13.200 my 14 year old at the time. So I thought like, wait, how are you, why are you not attracted?

00:44:17.340 Well, it wasn't physical. She's like, she looked at me and she goes, and I've done shows in the past.

00:44:22.880 I haven't done one in 10 years. And she's like, I hate when you do shows. And I'm like, why? She goes,

00:44:28.040 because like you're disconnected, you're tired, you're irritable. You have less patience with the

00:44:33.160 kids. You have less patience with me. You don't really connect with me. Like you usually do. You,

00:44:38.860 you don't really talk to me as much. And, and plus like while you're training with Mason,

00:44:43.160 like I'm lifting all the heavy load over here and getting dinners ready and all this other stuff

00:44:47.360 while you guys are training. She's like, that really impacts how attracted I am to you as a,

00:44:52.720 as a man and husband. And I'm like, oh, so I had nothing to do with how I looked aesthetically.

00:44:57.300 It had everything to do with how I was operating and how distracted I was and how irritable I was.

00:45:02.260 And because my diet was so tight and like my patience was less with the kids. I was way quicker to anger.

00:45:08.160 And I was like, oh, I even told her, I was like, that sucks to hear that. I was like,

00:45:14.040 but you know what? There's some truth there. And now I know what I can do differently. Right? Because

00:45:20.900 now it's not a question mark. Now I knew. I think that goes back to our being genuinely curious

00:45:27.820 because if our curiosity ends at, um, an answer we don't like, then we probably really weren't

00:45:36.580 curious. We were trying to get to the bottom of something, or you're probably trying to get

00:45:40.520 somebody to say something to validate us. Yeah. Like, like, Hey, it seems like you're not

00:45:45.520 attracted to me anymore. And you're kind of waiting. Like, please say, like, please say

00:45:50.560 you're still attracted. And then she gives you something else and you're like, oh, and then you

00:45:55.420 blow up or you cry or you make it about you. And then that wasn't curiosity. That was manipulation.

00:46:01.220 You were just trying to get an answer that, that made you feel better about yourself.

00:46:04.640 Yep. Fishing for content. Yeah. Right. Yeah. If you were genuinely curious,

00:46:09.720 you would, and I'm saying, again, I'm saying you, I'm talking to me too, but if I was genuinely

00:46:14.760 curious, I would say, okay, thank you. What, what about me is not attractive to you? And then you

00:46:22.720 would actually go to work. Yep. Because curiosity requires the work, the follow-up, the follow

00:46:27.960 through on what you're talking with your kids or your partner or your client or whoever it is about.

00:46:33.020 Yep.

00:46:36.600 Interesting. Interesting stuff, man. It's, it's, it's such a challenge because

00:46:41.240 there's another person who has a say in the matter.

00:46:46.500 Wouldn't it be easier if it's like, yeah, I can have conversations with other people,

00:46:49.960 but at the end of the day, it's like, it's going to be my way. And we, we try to do that. It doesn't

00:46:53.640 work though, obviously. Yeah. Here's the other thing too. And I don't know if you see this,

00:46:57.960 in iron council, I see this in the Alliance, but some guys will take what you and I just talked

00:47:05.160 about, you know, where they're asking for genuine feedback so they can pivot. Right. And their wife

00:47:10.620 completely bulldozes them. He masculates them, calls them names, yells at them. And some of the

00:47:17.180 guys think like, well, if I'm asking that, I just have to take that. I can, I have to be dis, you know,

00:47:23.220 it's part of the game. If I'm disrespected. No, it's not, you know, there are guardrails that

00:47:28.380 you have to put in your relationships. Like Jessica and I haven't have ways that we operate

00:47:32.800 that we do not deviate from. So like, for instance, if you have feedback like that for

00:47:37.060 the other person, you share that feedback out of love. You don't share it to put a knife in

00:47:43.120 somebody's back. Right. So my wife will gently, calmly, and she did gave me that feedback and she

00:47:50.320 didn't call me names. Like Jessica and I, 26 years I've known her. I have never called her a

00:47:54.860 bitch. She's never called me any names. She's never called me an asshole or anything like that. 0.88

00:47:58.700 You know, and when we have disagreements, we speak calmly to each other. Right. We don't like 0.95

00:48:03.360 go for the jugular. The other thing too, is any past transgressions that we've done, that we've

00:48:07.880 already overcome and gotten through, those are never brought up again. And a lot of people are like,

00:48:11.920 well, you remember that thing you did to me 10 years ago? And then it just goes in circles.

00:48:16.320 Right. So, you know, I, I would be, you know, if you're going to have conversations like this,

00:48:20.940 you have to agree with your wife on a way that you're going to operate and communicate

00:48:26.100 and being disrespected and emasculated is, it ain't one of them.

00:48:31.100 So do you, do you do that ahead of time? Like, do you come up with those guidelines ahead of time

00:48:35.980 or even in the spur of the moment, do you, Hey, look, that's out of bounds. Like,

00:48:40.680 how do you bring up those guardrails? Yeah. So Jessica and I brought up these guardrails

00:48:46.060 years and years and years ago. Right. And it is the way that we have stuck to, like, we,

00:48:50.840 you know, we have failed at quite a few things, but I, that's one thing that I can stake the flag

00:48:55.380 in, in the ground and say, we haven't deviated from that. And I think that's where a lot of

00:48:59.580 couples get tripped up. And this is where, you know, a triggered conversation will get triggered

00:49:04.600 is if you break the rules of how you communicate, right. If you're calling each other names,

00:49:09.600 like, if that's the way you're operating, you know, if you're screaming and yelling at each

00:49:13.700 other and, you know, just putting each other down, you're, you're not going to, you got to

00:49:17.740 solve that issue first before you can have better communication. So if that's, if that's taking

00:49:22.500 place, cause I imagine there's a lot of guys and even in the, I'm very similar in yours. Maybe,

00:49:29.280 maybe I have not been as good over our, uh, my wife and I, our history, the way that you guys have,

00:49:35.300 but we have been pretty good about that for the most part. Uh, and I think, I don't know if we've

00:49:42.000 ever spoken those rules necessarily, maybe they're just unspoken, but we've been pretty good about that

00:49:47.780 for the most part. If that's taking place in somebody's communication is a guy is a best for

00:49:54.520 a guy who hasn't established those guardrails or who has let that behavior happen in the past to him.

00:49:59.440 Um, is it best to call it out? Is it best to disengage in, in the moment? Like, how would

00:50:06.480 you, like, let's say your woman's calling you names or, or like attacking you personally.

00:50:14.060 What, what's the best course of action in the moment? If you have not yet established those

00:50:18.160 guardrails. Yeah. So I have, I have a client right now that we're working through that as we speak.

00:50:23.580 Right. And so an example that is, you know, he would have some heated conversations with his

00:50:29.740 wife and then she'd start calling them names. And then, so I coached during one of our coaching

00:50:34.840 sessions. I'm like, you guys have to establish not necessarily, not necessarily. You don't talk

00:50:40.740 to me that way, this and that, like basically you're the one calling the shots. What you have to do is

00:50:45.120 you have to come together before these things get heated and create an agreement, right? It's an

00:50:51.020 agreement. It's not because I want you to do this or you want me to do that. It's the agreement is

00:50:55.180 the, is the thing that actually holds the weight. It's not me. It's not you. It's the agreement that

00:50:59.520 we made. Right. So you have to come with the agreement first. If someone breaks the agreement,

00:51:04.320 like for instance, he got in a heated discussion with his wife, they created this agreement and he

00:51:09.180 looked at her and said, we agreed not to speak to each other this way. So I'm going to walk away.

00:51:13.160 And until we're willing to speak to each other in the way that we agreed upon, I'm not going to have

00:51:17.780 this conversation and he walked and his wife within the next hour came up to him and said,

00:51:23.140 you were right. I'm sorry. Let's talk again. But it was him standing. It is. It was him standing his

00:51:30.500 ground, not confidently, calmly. He didn't engage in calling her name back. He just simply emulated

00:51:38.080 the agreement that they made. And the fact that he was like, I'm not having this conversation until

00:51:43.420 we're aligned in the agreement once again. So I'm going to walk away. And when you're ready

00:51:47.020 to have the conversation with what we agreed upon, I'll come back.

00:51:51.220 It's a very masculine, manly approach. And I would go so far as to say, and I'm not saying

00:51:58.800 that women aren't capable of not being emotional. That's not what I'm saying. But I would go so far 0.99

00:52:03.820 as to say that to engage in that behavior based on emotion would be more of a feminine approach. 1.00

00:52:11.500 Yeah.

00:52:12.480 And to say, no, we agreed. I'm putting my foot down and I'm willing to come back to the table

00:52:18.180 when you're ready to engage the way that we said. That's a very masculine approach. And I think it

00:52:23.880 actually helps guys who have been emasculated start to reestablish some of that masculinity.

00:52:30.520 And by the way, that's very attractive to a woman.

00:52:33.900 Yep. Because you're leading her.

00:52:35.880 Exactly. And yourself, you're leading yourself. You're saying, I'm worth being respected,

00:52:41.700 even in disagreement. I am worth being respected. And that's attractive to people.

00:52:46.160 Yep. There's one other example that I'll share here. And it's really quick, but I have,

00:52:51.120 um, uh, this individual works, works for me. And he went through years and years of just emotional

00:52:59.420 beat downs, you know, and through us talking, he finally had, he sat down with her one day and

00:53:05.620 this was about nine months ago. And their, their marriage has completely changed, totally changed.

00:53:10.660 He sat down with her very, very calmly. And he said, been doing a lot of thinking

00:53:14.400 and I am fully committed to you. I'm fully committed to this marriage and I love you.

00:53:20.360 And I'm also fully committed to ending this marriage. If you, if, if you keep treating me

00:53:27.240 the way you have and the way that we agreed upon, we, we didn't agree that you would treat me like

00:53:31.840 this. So if that's the case, I'm also committed to leaving. And he said it that calm. He's like,

00:53:37.220 dude, I don't know what it was for her, but boom, she hired a therapist. She got help.

00:53:43.440 She completely changed how she started talking to him, but it took that calm conversation that was

00:53:48.640 outside of like this emotionally charged argument that could have been right. But he stood his ground

00:53:53.580 and a level of assertiveness. Cause it would have been a, it would have been, and again, manly,

00:53:59.520 it would have been very easy to bury your head in the sand and not, not do anything about it,

00:54:05.700 not say anything about it. And eventually get so pissed off and then just blow up the marriage

00:54:09.860 and not even give your partner a chance to get better. Like that's not right either.

00:54:14.620 It's not, not at all. Awesome. Larry, look, man, I know you're on a hard stop here and I want to be

00:54:20.960 respectful of your time. You got to get going, but I've really appreciated our friendship. And of

00:54:25.320 course our conversations, even offline, the ones that aren't recorded, but this is really powerful.

00:54:30.640 Psychological safety, being able to create this in communication with your wife and kids,

00:54:33.900 tell the guys where they can connect with you to learn more about what you're doing and what you

00:54:38.000 have going on. Yeah. The best thing is just the dad edge.com. I mean, we've got all of our

00:54:43.100 resources there. I've got, I've got a couple of different things. So like free 25 intimate

00:54:48.840 conversation starters. It's a, it's a video training, which actually teaches men how to

00:54:53.960 create psychological safety, but also I give you a list through a PDF of 25 different questions that

00:54:59.620 you can use to deepen your intimacy and your connection with your wife that are conversation

00:55:03.260 starters. They're not just rapid fire questions. So that's a resource for you, but as far as the

00:55:07.840 podcast goes, I mean, you can find the podcast, I think literally everywhere now, wherever you

00:55:13.580 listen to podcasts, but, and then next year we have a data summit, you know, in October, we already

00:55:19.700 have 110 tickets sold for next year's event. So if you're wanting to do, if you want to be a part of

00:55:25.720 that, you can find that there as well. So, yep. And you just, you just wrapped the last summit up

00:55:31.680 last month in October. Yeah. Cool. It looked cool. I saw some pictures and some, some mutual friends

00:55:36.000 that had attended and had great things to say. So. Thank you, man. Yeah. I'm back at you. I don't

00:55:40.740 think I've ever met anybody who's gone to an order a man event who didn't just think it was

00:55:45.520 fricking awesome, man. So I know you put on. You just haven't met enough of them. That's it. I'm

00:55:49.320 sure. I'm sure. I'm sure they're out there. I'm sure of it. We try to do good, but we don't always

00:55:54.440 get it right. Larry, I appreciate you, brother. I really do. I don't take that word brother lightly.

00:55:58.520 I do really appreciate your friendship and all that you're doing for men and me as well. Thanks,

00:56:03.160 man. Back at you, man. All right, guys, there you go. My conversation with my good friend,

00:56:08.060 Larry Hagner. I hope you enjoyed that one. I took a lot of notes. There was a few pauses,

00:56:13.200 awkward silences in the conversation. That wasn't because I didn't know what to say. It was because

00:56:18.160 I was taking copious notes and jotting everything down because this is really, really going to serve

00:56:23.740 me well. And I hope it does for you too. Make sure to connect with Larry. Take a screenshot of

00:56:28.980 the podcast right now on your phone and post it up on Instagram. Tag, Larry, tag myself.

00:56:34.000 Let guys know what you're listening to. Go check out his books. Go check out his podcast.

00:56:39.180 Look at origin USA for their brand new hunt line of 100% made and sourced in America.

00:56:44.040 And then also check out our battle ready program at order a man.com slash battle ready again,

00:56:50.920 order a man.com slash battle ready. All right, guys, you have your marching orders. We'll be back

00:56:55.360 tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action and become the man you are

00:57:00.760 meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your

00:57:05.580 life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - November 08, 2022

LARRY HAGNER ｜ Creating Psychological Safety

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