LARRY HAGNER ｜ Creating Psychological Safety
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Summary
In this episode, my good friend Larry Hagner joins me to talk about the importance of psychological safety for your wife and kids. We talk about how important it is to have a solid relationship with your spouse and kids, how to communicate effectively, and why curiosity serves as a powerful lubricant for improving our conversations.
Transcript
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Psychological safety. It's not something that we think a whole lot about, even though we
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talk a lot about a man's innate desire to protect those he's closest to. But when it
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comes to the mental and emotional safety of our loved ones, we often fall short. My guest
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today is my good friend, Larry Hagner, who is the founder of the Dad Edge and Dad Edge
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podcast. Today, Larry and I talk about powerful communication strategies with our wife and
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kids, how crucial climate is when it comes to communicating effectively, how curiosity
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serves as a powerful lubricant for improving our conversations, and how to effectively
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create psychological safety for our loved ones to open up to us.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly
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chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You
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are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This
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is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said
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and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name
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is Ryan Michler. I'm the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement. Welcome
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here today. If you're new, it's my job to get incredible men. These are guys who are successful
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on the business front, the home front, the entrepreneur front, the physical fitness front,
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you name it. If they're successful in any way, I want to get these guys on the podcast,
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have good conversations with them, extract some of their knowledge, their wisdom, their information,
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their failures, their setbacks, and what they've done to succeed in life and deliver that to you.
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So we've had guys like Ben Shapiro, Andy Frisilla, Jocko Willing, Terry Cruz, Tim Tebow. The lineup
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of guys that we have on this podcast is phenomenal. So I think the same can be said for my friend,
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Larry, who's joining us today. Now, before we get into the conversation, just want to mention
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you're going to save some money when you do. All right, guys, let me introduce you to my friend,
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Larry. We both got our start in the world of podcasting, excuse me, in creating these,
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these digital movements around the same time, 2015. And he has been a trusted friend, an advocate,
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and also a coach to me since, and he has made it his life's mission to serve men as it relates to
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their marriage and fathering their children. He's also the author of his book, the dad edge
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and his upcoming book early next year, the pursuit of legendary fatherhood guys. Enjoy this one.
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Larry, what's up, man? Great to see you again. And of course, have you back on the podcast.
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It is last time we were in St. Louis, I guess, right? Was it St. Louis that, or did we bump into each
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other? Yeah, we went to breakfast, but it all kind of started to blend together. I was traveling
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around so much for a very short period of time. And I'm like, I was in Texas and I was in, I think,
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Florida. And then I went to St. Louis. I was all over the place for a little period of time. So
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it's hard to string together when it all blends together like that, you know?
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Yeah, man. It was, gosh, it was probably six months ago. And you actually introduced me to
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a Mexican breakfast that I've never had. Well, there you go. Somebody probably introduced that
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to me because I like when it, not probably, somebody definitely did because when it comes
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to the logistical side of things, that's just something I do not do. I struggle in that department.
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All I know is the beans, man. The beans at breakfast made the rest of the day very interesting.
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I don't remember that, but I'll take your word for it. We'll just go with that. No, it's always
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good to talk because you and I started, I think you started a little before me, if I remember right,
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or right around the same time. I can't remember when you started your movement, which was
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the Good Dad Project initially, and now it's the Dad Edge, right? That's kind of the rebranding that
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you did over the past several years. Yeah. We actually, you and I met in April of 2015 in a
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Facebook group where we were rating and reviews everybody's new podcast. And I remember actually
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coming across yours and I was like, man, this guy's story is so similar to mine.
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And I just, I loved your story from the get-go. And then that's how you and I connected.
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Yeah. We've been good friends ever since, helping each other, supporting each other. I've been on your
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show a couple of times. You've been on my show a couple of times. And then, you know, through the
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process, you even have a new book I know coming out next year as well. And I've,
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I've got my book that came out a couple of, about a month ago. Our timetable is just so
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funny how it overlaps. And it's just, it's, it's kind of like the same trajectory. It seems like.
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Yeah, man, it is crazy. You know, there's, there are so many similarities and yeah, I mean,
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my book was, it is weird, man, because I, I knew that you were working on a book, but I didn't know
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what the launch date was. And then my book was also supposed to come out in September, but
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unfortunately, um, my publisher went bankrupt. And so that put a, put a, just a kibosh on the
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whole thing. So I had to, tends to change things around a little bit.
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Yeah. What's interesting about that is you and I actually, so I had the same publisher
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publisher and I was receiving my royalties or so I thought, and all of a sudden royalties
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shut off. I'm like, wait, what? You're not going to pay my relative royalties for the
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past year. All right. What are we going to do? And, uh, the gentleman, and I do say gentlemen
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actually. And I, and I mean that the gentleman, uh, reached out to me and it actually ended up
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working out for the better because now I own my book and that, that was an awesome benefit,
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but it's hard in the midst of things, whether it's dealing with kids or relationships or
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business failures to have an optimistic view of how life is going to be when we're in the
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midst of baggage and bull crap, but things tend to work out for the better. If you can
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Yeah. I look at my situation. I look at that situation because I know you had the same
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publisher and yeah, I know you refer to him as a gentleman. He is a good man. The guy
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who owns that publishing agency. Uh, I, I was like, man, that really sucks, you know,
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but it was a good time to find out. Cause I found out about six weeks before the launch
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of the book and it gave me, you know, enough time to like, well, what do I want to do here?
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And obviously being in the podcasting world, uh, you know, I, I was connected to an agent
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and now that I hired that agent and now that agent is going to work to get us a book
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deal, uh, with, with one of the big five, hopefully, hopefully. So we're, we should
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actually, as you and I are recording this, we should actually hear this week, what direction
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we're going to go in. But yeah, it was a, it was a blessing in disguise. I would have
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rather come out in September, but blessing in disguise.
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Of course. Yeah. You, you want it to weigh the work out the way that you want it to work
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out. And then when you look back, you think, Oh, you know, that actually worked out pretty
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good in spite of everything I felt like I was going through at the time.
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Right. Exactly. What's the name? What's the name of the book?
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It's called the pursuit of legendary fatherhood.
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Right on, man. I'm stoked to read it. I know you look, I refer so many people your way. Cause
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obviously this is a big issue for men. How do you be a good father? Um, I didn't really
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have a framework or a roadmap when I was growing up. I know you didn't as well. And so, man,
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I failed in so many ways and I fail every day. I failed today. In fact, I can think of,
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I fail in so many different ways and man, it's one of the most challenging, but gratifying
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It is. And that's the thing, man, when, when we come from backgrounds like you and I did,
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where there really is like no blueprint, there's no, there's no good example. And I love the fact
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that, I mean, you and I work with men every day, man. And I honestly believe that there's two types
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of men. There's the men that will lean on that negative experience growing up and just be like,
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well, I can't, I can never have a successful marriage. I can never be a successful dad. Cause
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that's what I didn't have. And, or you have the type of guy is like, Nope, I'm going to do this
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differently because I didn't have a good example growing up and it's going to be different. And
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I'm going to do the work and I'm going to be diligent about it. And I honestly think that's
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what you and I have done. And a lot of the men that we lead have done, but you're, you're exactly
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right. It's totally, it is completely and totally a practice. There isn't one day, man,
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that I don't just completely and totally fall on my face. And I mean, I even have a course
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called creating more patients where I teach men how to be more patient and calm with their kids.
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And I lose my patients and I'm sitting there thinking like, Holy crap, dude. Like I actually
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designed a course around this and I can't even take my own advice from time to time.
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Do you ever feel like you're writing information or putting podcasts out in the world or putting
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together this course like this or a book where you're actually not doing it for anybody else?
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And you're like, this is the course that I need. I almost, I almost look at it as public
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journaling. Yeah. Right. Where it's like, okay, I need, I need help in my relationship. I need help
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in my business. And so I can bring this individual on, or I need help with fatherhood and I can bring
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Larry you on. And it's therapeutic for me. I take notes. I always do. I try to implement as much as
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I can on a regular basis. And it's just, it's, it's like journaling. And then other people
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hopefully get some value of my own thoughts and my own path that I'm struggling to walk myself.
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Yeah. Yeah. I selfishly, I always say that the podcast is a front row seat to the most
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amazing education imaginable. And I know you have felt the exact same way. And the cool thing that
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I always talk about with the audience or the guys that do live with us or whatever is that
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they, they get to, we get to go on this journey together, right? We get to learn together,
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right? We're, we're in the front seat. We're in the, the virtual classroom. We get to learn
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together. The other thing too, is yes, I do it. I do do it for myself. So even the pursuit of
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legendary fatherhood, I had all these ideas and all these concepts and all these things that we've
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been doing over the years, but I never had a place where I could actually put everything that
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we've done over the past seven years. And then one final quick story, I'll never forget when I
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launched the dad edge book back in 2015. And that's, as I look back on it now, that's like
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the most basic dad book. Like it's like, I feel like that was kindergarten and now we're
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college level as far as information goes. But I was talking to a coach of mine one time
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and I was still in the infancy stage of good dad and still in the, I mean, I think I was only
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podcasting for maybe five months. And I remember getting on a call with a coach and I was like,
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man, I don't know if I want to hit the publish button on this book. And he's like, why not?
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I was like, well, I'm really putting myself out there. There's a lot of information in this book,
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like where I'm just an idiot and that kind of thing. And what if it's received horrible? What
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if I get all these bad reviews? Like what if it just sucks, right? It's like all these imposter
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things going on. And my mentor looked at me and he goes, he goes, let me ask you a question. He goes,
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if you help one man, just one man completely pivot his life, was it worth it? And I was like, yeah,
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yeah, it was worth it. And he goes, well, let me ask you this. He goes,
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writing this book. Did it help you become a better father? Was it almost like your mission
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statement in a book? And I was like, yeah, that's exactly what it was. And he goes, then who cares?
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Who cares? And I don't know what it was about him saying that, but I was like,
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publish, right? Who cares what happens? This has improved my life. And I think it'll improve one,
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Well, so what's changed between what you wrote in 2015, where you said you felt like that was
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kindergarten class to now you're talking about college level classes. So, cause look, honestly,
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I, I think of the advice that we share and I'm trying to be as objective as possible.
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And this might diminish what we do, but it's, it's true in my mind anyways,
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like we all know what it means to be a good man. We all know basically things we should do to be
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good fathers, right? If I, if I were to think of two to five things, I would say make sure that you
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communicate, make sure that you look at the way you father from a long-term perspective,
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not just what is immediate gratification for you or them. Be willing to have hard conversations
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and then introduce them to challenging experiences in life that they can overcome with your guidance
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and direction. And, you know, but that's pretty general. It's just guys have a really, and I say
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guys, but me included have a hard time following sometimes even our own advice. So what's changed
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between kindergarten and now this college class, there's been so much that has changed. And I love
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the analogy that you talk about. Like we all know what it means to be a good man. And let me,
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let me bring this back to something that you love, right? Which is jujitsu. I'm actually getting
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ready to start jujitsu myself. I, I, dude, you're going to be a force to be reckoned with. I can't
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wait for those guns. I can see those guns, man. You and your son bodybuilding and yeah, we'll have to
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get on the mats at some point. That'd be for you. You will completely decimate me. I'm sure.
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Well, just in the first, I don't know, a few months. And then after you have a few months under your,
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under your belt, then I won't get on the mats with you anymore. But those, I want you the
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first few months though. You're mine. All right. Okay. Good deal, man. You know, I,
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I did 10 years of martial arts from like 1999 to like 2010 for so about 11 years. And here's where
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I'll tell you, like going back to, you know, what it, let me, let me talk about what it means to be
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a good man first. Right. Everyone, I think every man knows like, Hey, I kind of know what this means
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to be a good man. Right. I know what that looks like, but, and think about it from self-defense,
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right. Take someone who's never learned Brazilian jujitsu. And they're like, okay,
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if somebody attacks me, I have an idea of how I would defend myself. But tactically,
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I don't think I could do it if I was in the heat of it because my adrenaline would be going,
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I might freak out. Or what if this guy does this? I don't know how to defend against that. It's like
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all these things, right. That, that we just don't know at a, at a high level. It's like, okay,
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I know self, I have an idea of what self-defense is, but tactically in the trenches when I'm faced
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with it, like, man, I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. So Brazilian jujitsu,
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obviously it takes you, right. And it takes you, it, it, it gives you the skills and the resources
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from a tactical standpoint of when this guy does this, you do this. When you're on top, you do that.
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When you feel this guy move this way, you go this way. So it's a very tactical thing. So
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what dad edge was, I think back in 2015, if, even if I take that book right in kindergarten,
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it was more like, Hey, this is the overall theme of like what it means to connect with your kids.
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But I think the big miss in that book was, well, how do I do that from a tactical standpoint?
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Same thing with a marriage, right? How do I connect with my wife from a tactical standpoint?
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I missed the mark on that in that book. Cause I didn't know what I didn't know at the time.
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Well, now we have a plethora, you know, of skills that we teach men, you know,
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as far as marriage goes. And we have nine different, I have an, I have a, an entire course
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on nine different skillsets to teach men how to come, how to better communicate with their wife,
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right. And how to better connect with their kids, how to create an environment of psychological
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safety where your kids are going to tell you more things. So things like that, that are more tactical
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Hmm. I like that analogy. I wrote down as you were talking about the martial arts thing is just
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the difference is knowledge versus wisdom, right? We like, we all know, like you said,
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if I get in a fight, I make a fist and I punch like that sounds right. But then you've never done
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it before potentially. And so that's where the wisdom comes in. And what I wrote here is that
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when you, you train jujitsu, for example, or another martial art, it helps you to understand
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the variables that you can't see when you're watching a movie.
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Cause you look at a choreographed fight and you think, Oh, well I can do that.
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But what you don't recognize because it's a movie and it's not real is that the way that your body
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is responding, the fight or flight mentality, the way that individual is responding, you know,
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there are no two people fight the same, right? So the way that person, um, how it feels when you're
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exhausted, you're out of breath. How do you calculate for that? How do you calculate for a guy
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who's 30, 40, 50 pounds heavier than you or stronger than you? You know, you can't account
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for those things. And I think the way that translates into fatherhood is how do you, we all know, okay,
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you need to be empathetic to your children, especially as you're dealing with stuff.
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But how do you do that when you're pissed off at them because they just yelled at you or their
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That's a variable that you throw that little wrench into the equation and it changes everything.
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It totally does. I mean, that's the thing when we're at a heightened, so if you look at the,
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the two most important relationships in our life, right? Marriage and with our kids, it's like you
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said, it's an incredible experience, right? From a father perspective, from a husband perspective,
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it's one of the most incredible experiences that we'll, we'll have as men, right? And it's an
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incredible relationship that we'll have. However, it's also dynamic and it's highly emotionally
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charged, right? So no, there's probably no other human beings on the planet that can get under our
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skin, like our kids, right? And there's no one else on the planet that we love more or like that
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we love our kids. The same with our wives. You know, I, I work, I would say one thing we do in
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Dad Edge that we really focus on, we actually have hard data on this. 80% of men who come to Dad Edge
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want to create a better marriage. 80%, eight out of 10 guys. So that is what's on their mind and
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heart is marriage. But the thing is, is that no one knows exactly what that looks like. So like,
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you know, you were in the military. We're, we're coming up actually, as we're recording on Veterans
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Day. Marriage in our society is a lot like you walk down the aisle, you say, I do, you get pats on
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the back. Hey man, this would be the best time of your whole life. Don't worry. You'll figure it out.
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I look at somebody like you, Ryan, who served in the military. Can you imagine showing up to basic
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training? And they're like, Hey man, there's no basic training anymore, but here's your firearm.
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You know, here's your uniform. We're going to deploy you, but don't worry. You'll figure it out.
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Best time of your whole life. You'll figure it out. Like we don't do that. Right. You even need,
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you even need to take a test and you need to be in a car with a, with a police officer for them to sign
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off on you saying like, yes, you are capable and able to drive a vehicle in this state.
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But when it comes to marriage, like I honestly think, man, if every single married couple,
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every engaged couple was required to learn at least two or three skills within communication
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or, or conflict resolution, I think the divorce rate would actually decrease quite a bit,
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but that's the thing. We just, we were not teaching these couples skills.
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Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm writing this down. Uh, the other one I think of is emotional maturity.
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That's the one that gets to me. Like I I'm, I'm pretty, well, I can be pretty stoic,
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but I can also be pretty emotional. And I don't mean I'm slobbering and crying and babbling on like
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an idiot. That's not one, but I can let my emotions get the better of me. And it usually manifests itself
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in frustration and anger. Yeah. And, and I, I think, you know, in addition to what you're
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saying, communication skills, uh, communication skills, conflict resolution is emotional maturity.
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Yep. And, and I'm, I'm looking at that even in my own relationship with my wife and kids is like,
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all right, when my wife says something, how easily do I get triggered by that? And then I take it out
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of context. I usually will create my own context. You might mean something and I'll make it mean
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something completely different and that's emotional. And then I try to justify it in my
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mind. I do the same thing with my kids and then I take things personally. And then I go on the attack
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rather than just saying, you know, tell me more about that. Like, that's a great, that question
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right there alone is, Oh, you're upset. Tell me more about that. I don't, I want to understand
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that question alone, man, that's been really helpful. I wish I could say that I am better at that
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than I am though. Again, this is what we're saying. Like, this is the therapeutic side of it is like,
00:21:03.580
I need this more so than any other guy listening. I'm sure of it.
00:21:07.900
And you just nailed something right there. I mean, one, just one of the skills that we,
00:21:12.380
and this is like super, super simple, but we all miss it big time. If you replace the word, why
00:21:19.400
with tell me more, the impact and how that lands for either your kids or your wife is completely
00:21:26.100
different. So why actually psychologically put someone in a corner? Why do you feel that way?
00:21:31.140
Why did you do that? It literally brings us back to like our two-year-old selves when our
00:21:34.640
parents would point at us, be like, why are you crying? You know, why did you do that?
00:21:38.780
You know, so the word why actually puts a human being on the defense, especially kids or your
00:21:42.780
wife or whatever, but tell me more is an invite. Tell me more. I want to know. Right. And it gets
00:21:49.800
you actually better information and it'll, it will actually calm the other person down. They'll feel
00:21:54.940
more comfortable telling you whatever it is that they want to tell you. I mean, think about it.
00:21:58.280
When someone asks us, Hey, Hey Ryan, why did you do that? Or, Hey Ryan, I saw that you did that.
00:22:02.860
Tell me about that. It's a totally different feeling than the why question.
00:22:08.840
Yeah. That's a good point. I also think it's going to, I think the reason it probably leads
00:22:14.040
to clarity and calmness, I should say calmness for them is sometimes if people were to ask me,
00:22:20.440
if I got emotional and you said to me, Hey Ryan, tell me more about that.
00:22:24.380
I don't know if I could immediately because I probably just reacted emotionally and I'm like,
00:22:29.700
I don't know. I can't explain it. Yeah. And the same is true. Maybe with our wives and our children
00:22:34.780
is like, okay, you did this thing. Tell me more about why you're feeling like that. Well, I don't
00:22:39.300
know. I just did. Okay. And you get them to actually start to work through it themselves.
00:22:43.840
I do see one of the traps that I fall into is sometimes a line of questioning comes across as
00:22:50.740
either calculated or manipulating or robotic or some sort of, I have an agenda and I'm trying to get
00:23:05.400
to the bottom of it to, for my own good, not necessarily for yours.
00:23:10.340
You know, it's interesting you say that because, um, I just interviewed, uh, Lisa DeMoore who
00:23:15.520
wrote the book untangled. I don't know if you've heard of that book, but it's all about, yeah,
00:23:19.620
it's all about raising teenage daughters, uh, and the stages that they go through. But here's the
00:23:23.840
interesting thing before we hit the record button on that podcast. Uh, she told me, she's like,
00:23:29.480
you know, Hey, I know that this is written for girls, but these rules are still the same for boys,
00:23:34.080
but here's the interesting thing about questions, right? In our dad brains, right? I'm going to ask
00:23:39.380
my, and this could be also be tweens, right? So 10, 11, 12, 13 years old, whatever. In our dad brains,
00:23:45.020
we're like, I want to connect with this kid. So I'm going to ask him or her some questions,
00:23:50.680
but the way that lands for them, depending on the questions or depending on the voice tone or
00:23:55.140
depending on the environment is why are you interrogating me? What's your agenda? What do
00:24:00.220
you want to know? You know? And then that's when they're like, this is annoying. Like that's what,
00:24:04.580
how our kids will, will, uh, will interpret stuff like that. So that was, that was fascinating to
00:24:10.220
learn as well. So you're, you're exactly right. And especially with our older kids,
00:24:13.300
we gotta be super careful. Some, we gotta be careful about the environment. We gotta be careful
00:24:17.720
about the questions sometimes because we'll put them actually on the defense and we don't,
00:24:21.220
we won't even know it and they can't even articulate it either. They just know that they're
00:24:24.940
like, why are you asking me this? And they're just like, kind of like back like this.
00:24:29.320
How do you know though? How do you know? I mean, obviously you can look for feedback,
00:24:33.640
right? If they're detached or withdrawing, then that's an indicator that something's not working.
00:24:38.820
Yeah. But how do you know how you're coming across to your wife or to your children?
00:24:43.140
So I, so let me take the kids first. So like, I'll like my, my 16 year old, dude,
00:24:49.000
he, that kid, his two favorite words, man, are let's talk. I'm, I'm completely floored by that
00:24:57.440
one because like, he wants to, he likes to talk. He wants to. Yeah. He's like, but he's also has
00:25:01.760
the type of personality though, where he thinks out loud. So for him talking gives him clarity,
00:25:06.860
but I, but every night before bed, let's talk like, and we spend 15 minutes talking.
00:25:12.140
I it's effortless with him. Now I think he's an anomaly and I think that's just his personality.
00:25:17.580
And I think the reason he likes to talk is because he likes to get clarity and he gets his thoughts
00:25:21.560
out. And I'm a 14 year old man. He's your typical teenager. He's, he's stoic. He's quiet,
00:25:28.320
you know, and there's, it's like a pry bar sometimes. And the one thing I've noticed with
00:25:33.100
his personality type is number one, I can't take it personally. If he doesn't want to talk in the
00:25:37.600
moment that I want to talk. Yeah. Good point. It's just, my job is to show him that I'm there
00:25:45.440
when he wants to, and to extend the invite when he wants to. But here's another really cool thing.
00:25:52.100
If I like, so let's just say, I want to have a connected conversation with my 14 year old,
00:25:57.520
right? If I take my 16 year old out to Buffalo wild wings, it's easy, right? We talk about
00:26:02.440
everything, right? For my 14 year old, that's very intimidating for us to sit across from each
00:26:07.440
other right away. So for him, the best thing that we can do is to do an activity first,
00:26:12.440
because that, that's what actually brings him connection. I know for you, Ryan, like one of
00:26:16.700
the biggest things you do with your boys is like hunting, right? And you do all kinds of different
00:26:19.720
things. But I would imagine that when you're on hunting trips with your boys or doing something
00:26:25.440
like that, or doing something physical, like I know you train with your boys. I train with my boys
00:26:28.860
that some of the best conversations and the best connections actually are happening usually during that
00:26:35.800
time or right after that time. It's never usually when I want to sit down and be like, Hey man,
00:26:40.140
I want to talk to you about a few things. Boom. Usually that garage door is shut. Yeah. So the
00:26:44.980
activity comes first, the connection comes first, and then we get to connect after that if he wants to.
00:26:51.640
Yeah, that's good. I, my, my two oldest sons are like your 14 year old where I'll ask, Hey,
00:26:59.240
how's your day? Good. What was your favorite part? Oh, this one thing. Care to elaborate? No,
00:27:05.300
I'm good. What's on your mind. What are you thinking about? Nothing. It's like, I'm going
00:27:09.540
to bring your neck because I, I, I'm more like your 16 year old. Yeah. I like to talk. And every
00:27:16.920
time I talk, even if they're difficult conversations, I just, I feel better. If I talk, I just feel
00:27:22.980
better, but that's not how it goes in my household with mom or the kids, except for my daughter. My
00:27:30.420
daughter's a talker. She's like me. Uh, so it tends to be a challenge at times. A lot of the times it
00:27:37.420
really does. Cause I want to talk and nobody seems to want to talk. Yeah. And you know, I'm, I'm kind
00:27:42.920
of the same. Well, I guess mine is, it kind of depends on my mood, but you know, like for my wife,
00:27:47.220
my wife and my 14 year old are, have extremely similar personalities. They're, they're, they're
00:27:53.100
very stoic. Uh, they're introverted, they're quiet and they do not like to be pried open for
00:27:58.540
information. So like, for instance, if I want to have a really good conversation, like if I go out
00:28:02.860
to my wife right now and you know, she's, she's out there working on the house she's doing, she's
00:28:07.260
trying to like literally sprint to get things done before the kids get, get home from school.
00:28:12.180
Now, if I sit down and be like, Hey, you want to talk about a few things? She'll be like bad tiny.
00:28:16.420
Yeah. I'm like right in the middle of things. Right now. However, if I take her like, like this
00:28:21.320
Friday, I take every Friday a half day and she and I have a date date and our day date. And so what
00:28:26.980
I've noticed is if she and I go on a hike, we go work out, uh, we go for a walk or something like
00:28:33.820
that. It's like suddenly she wants to talk about everything. Right. And that's because those
00:28:39.340
distractions aren't around. Uh, we're, we're sharing in an experience together, which one, like one of the
00:28:45.480
things we teach, you know, we talk about tactical skills, right? What we're really talking about here
00:28:48.640
is psychological safety. And that's one of the things that, that we teach quite a bit is how to
00:28:52.780
create an environment of psychological safety with either your wife or your kids, where they want to
00:28:55.940
open up and talk to you and where you can connect. Right. And it doesn't, you know, human beings are
00:29:00.860
like, well, I want to connect and I want to, I want to have a conversation. So I'm just going to
00:29:04.720
barrel in and we're going to have this conversation. That's what we call going to a conversation
00:29:08.440
with expectation and agenda. Right. And people sense that a mile away. And, but if you go to a
00:29:13.320
conversation with the right environment and instead of expectation, you go with appreciation and
00:29:17.720
curiosity, you're going to have a way better conversation and you're going to have a way
00:29:22.540
better connection. All right, man, let me hit the pause button on the conversation. I got to ask,
00:29:27.920
are you ready for whatever life has to throw your way in any given moment? How do you know? And how do
00:29:34.160
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00:29:50.620
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00:29:57.320
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00:30:01.900
months left and the new year, as we think about rolling into 2023, again, it's called 30 days to
00:30:06.980
battle ready. And you can get signed up at order a man.com slash battle ready. Again, order a man.com
00:30:13.780
slash battle ready. Do that right after the show for now. Let's get back to it with Larry.
00:30:19.240
I like that. So no agenda you talked about, you go into it with appreciation and curiosity.
00:30:23.840
Curiosity is such a great word. I mean, it's not just the word obviously, but the meaning behind it,
00:30:28.760
it's such a powerful way to, it's almost weird saying that as a tactic. Cause you said, here's some
00:30:34.660
tactic, go with curiosity, but you can't really, if, if you make it too much of a tactic,
00:30:41.120
then it actually is the opposite of curiosity. Yeah. Cause curiosity is just, it's genuine. Like
00:30:47.800
I care about you, right? Like Larry, I care about you. So I'm genuinely curious about what you have
00:30:54.160
to say. This is not an agenda. I did not come to this conversation with a bullet points that I
00:31:00.320
wanted to cover. I didn't come with predetermined questions because I care too much about you for
00:31:06.560
that. But then we do it in the conversations that we have with our wives and our kids and our
00:31:13.100
employees or our clients. That's why I completely got away from asking canned questions and conversations
00:31:19.500
because it blows up the conversation before it even had a chance to turn into something
00:31:24.820
really, really meaningful. Yep. You're exactly right. I, I do that in podcast. You do it in
00:31:31.880
podcasts. I do it in podcasts. I have noticed in, this is kind of in the early days. And I know you
00:31:37.180
probably did the same thing I did is I would do all my homework on these guests, right? I'd have my
00:31:41.420
agenda and then I have an expectation of how this podcast is going to turn out. And here's the crazy
00:31:47.140
thing. When I stuck to my agenda, it felt awkward. I could tell it felt awkward for the other person.
00:31:52.480
It felt robotic. It didn't feel genuine. It didn't feel like we even connected or whatever.
00:31:57.040
And what I do now is I do minimum, I do homework on these people, but I want to go, I always tell,
00:32:02.900
I always ask the person if we were celebrating the most amazing interview at the end of this
00:32:07.500
interview, what are you telling me we talked about that's most meaningful to you? And then they'll just
00:32:11.960
give me some high level themes that they really, really want to talk about. And then as soon as I
00:32:16.680
see them like come to life and their energy goes up, that's where I really dive in and go, go hard,
00:32:21.480
go deeper, right? Because that's where, that's where that connection really is. And the funny
00:32:26.600
thing is, is I'm sure you've heard this a million times. I've heard it and some, and it, it still
00:32:31.160
surprises me sometimes. I'll get off of a podcast and they'll be like, dude, like even you interviewed
00:32:36.940
Matthew McConaughey, I interviewed him. And after we stopped hitting the record button, he's like,
00:32:40.640
dude, he's like, I've done thousands of interviews. He goes, how long have you been doing this for?
00:32:44.720
And I was like, six years. He's like, you're one of the best interviewers I have ever come across.
00:32:49.540
I was like, holy shit, man. I wish I would have that still recorded. Right. But I even asked him,
00:32:53.880
I was like, why do you say that? He's like, cause it felt like a conversation. It just felt like we
00:32:57.980
were talking like over coffee. It didn't feel like you were trying to like come in with all these
00:33:02.200
questions. And he even used the word your agenda. You know, it was a conversation and I, and the same
00:33:08.280
holds true in our personal relationships. Yeah. Good point. How do you, one thing I want to pivot a
00:33:13.260
little bit on the conversation topic, let's say that you get your, your wife opens up to you or
00:33:19.300
your kids open up to you or anybody. It doesn't really matter. How do you keep your cool in heated
00:33:25.560
moments? Because I know that's an issue for a lot of guys is, you know, your wife's going to come at
00:33:32.060
you and say something that you're not going to like. Your kids are going to say things that you're not
00:33:35.040
excited about. So how do you maintain that emotional maturity and coolness when you do get triggered
00:33:41.400
and upset by the conversation that's taking place? Because I, I, and I just want to put a little
00:33:46.320
frame on this is you're talking about psychological safety. If you blow up, that's the antithesis of
00:33:53.300
safety. Yep. And you're going to train people not to talk to you anymore. Yeah. I mean, I, I think you
00:34:00.500
probably grew up the same way I did. And basically the message was don't come and talk to me about
00:34:05.800
things that are really big and impersonal because I'm going to probably blow up, throw it in your face or
00:34:11.060
something like that. And also like, if I felt a certain way about something growing up, it was
00:34:15.820
wrong. Right. You're wrong for feeling that right. Shame on you. How dare you? Right. So, you know,
00:34:20.820
to answer your question, a lot of it has to do with, um, so it's very hard, especially if it's
00:34:28.080
something that's like going for the jugular or something like, Oh man, like that's really,
00:34:33.080
really difficult. I'll give you, um, I'll give you an example of a skill that we learned from a
00:34:37.700
company called clear leadership. Um, and we always have to give them credibility or credit.
00:34:42.500
We're credit to clear leadership.com. We are coached on a skillset called the cube. Have
00:34:46.540
you ever heard of the cube? I don't think so. Maybe. Yeah. So the cube is a four-step process.
00:34:52.900
It's, it's actually very easy of how to have triggered conversations or how to have intense
00:34:58.920
conversations. So it's a four-step process around observations, thoughts, feelings, and wants.
00:35:05.740
So if you let's, let's just take this as an example of a triggered conversation or where I
00:35:10.680
could get triggered or my wife could get triggered. This is a true story. Let's just say that my wife
00:35:16.060
and I haven't been intimate for a while. Right. Maybe, you know, we, we average a couple of times
00:35:20.420
a week. I think we went, this was months and months ago. We went like, God, man, we went like,
00:35:25.500
we're doing like once a month, like maybe every two weeks. And I was, I was kind of getting
00:35:29.900
concerned. I was like, man, this is kind of crazy. Like, and then the stories like start to roll in.
00:35:34.480
Right. We've been together for 26 years and maybe I'm old news. Right. Maybe she just doesn't like
00:35:41.240
me anymore. Like all these things I was telling. Maybe she's sleeping around or, you know, there's
00:35:44.980
all sorts of stories we come up with. Right. All kinds of crazy things. Right. Which made me
00:35:49.640
triggered before I even had the conversation. Right. So, um, I wanted to open up the conversation
00:35:55.380
with her. Now, before learning that skill, most human beings, most men and me included would go into
00:36:01.300
that conversation and be like, Hey, why aren't we having sex that often anymore? Like, I don't
00:36:05.340
understand what's going on. You know, are you not attracted to me? Are you too tired? Like
00:36:09.760
is the stress level too high? Like what's going on? Right. Now, how that's going to land for my wife
00:36:15.640
is, is terrible. She's going to automatically get on the defensive and we're probably going to have a
00:36:20.460
really triggered conversation where it's actually going to disconnect us more than connect us.
00:36:24.460
Hmm. So the whole point of the cube is to actually keep calm. Right. And it's, it's GPS for triggered
00:36:31.360
conversations. You actually know exactly where you're at in the conversation by the cube. So
00:36:35.020
the observation, this is what it would look like. So I gave you an example of what bad looks like.
00:36:39.360
This is what something good looks like. So I'll start with an observation
00:36:42.040
and the right voice tone. Hey, I've noticed over the past few months that our intimacy hasn't been
00:36:50.480
nearly as frequent as it used to be. That's an observation, right? She can agree to it. And so
00:36:56.560
can I. Sure. The thought I have now, the difference between a thought and a feeling is a thought as a
00:37:01.440
sentence and a feeling as a word. So, but a lot of people get this screwed up and be like, I feel
00:37:05.780
like you don't love me anymore. Or I feel like you're not attracted to me. That's not a feeling.
00:37:09.580
That's actually a thought. So how I transitioned from observation to thought is I say something like,
00:37:14.620
I've noticed that we just haven't been intimate as frequently over the past couple of months.
00:37:18.600
And the story that I'm telling myself, the thoughts that I have around that is
00:37:21.880
maybe you're not as attracted to me as you used to be. And that's the own story I'm telling myself.
00:37:28.320
That's my own stupid insecurities coming out. Or maybe it's the fact that we're just so busy and
00:37:33.200
we're so exhausted by the end of the day. Or maybe it's because, you know, maybe our sex life has
00:37:38.080
gotten routine. So those are the three thoughts. The feeling then how I feel about that is I feel
00:37:44.220
frustrated and I feel a little rejected. Yeah. And then you go to the want, right? Because what
00:37:51.840
I truly want is to be more intimate with you more often because that's when I feel we're the closest.
00:37:57.940
Now, when I end off with the want, here's how that lands, right? When I end off with the want
00:38:02.540
versus like her feeling like I'm attacking, like, but why are we having sex anymore?
00:38:06.000
In her mind, usually what happens in that conversation is the want that you have is
00:38:10.920
usually not always, but usually someone in line with what they want to, or that the way it lands
00:38:17.160
for them is they're at least going to be less defensive. And the way my wife responded to that,
00:38:21.640
she's like, you're absolutely right. And the story that you're telling yourself isn't true.
00:38:25.740
I'm very attracted to you. I've just been so tired. We've been so busy. And by the time it gets
00:38:30.660
to be night, like I'm exhausted. And the actual solution that we came after that conversation
00:38:37.460
was let's just not have sex at night anymore. Cause we're both tired. Let's just have sex during
00:38:42.260
the day. So the cool thing that we, the, the agreement that we made was, is like, let's just
00:38:46.200
take it off the table, take the pressure off at night. Cause it's too, it's, we're just too tired,
00:38:50.500
but let's have all the sex we want during the day. The kids are in school. So that's what we agreed
00:38:54.720
on. Okay. So that's, that's awesome. It worked like it was supposed to, right? But what happens
00:39:03.820
when it doesn't? Cause I mean, that's a powerful framework, the cube. I like that. I wrote that
00:39:08.100
down. So let's say you use this cube type method. And again, I'm, I'm even hesitant. I don't even
00:39:14.420
like calling it the cube because then it's a tactic and it just, it is, it can be used tactically,
00:39:23.160
but if you use it as a tactic, then I think it loses some of his, his genuineness. Right.
00:39:28.160
Right. So that's just one thing I think we need to be aware of, but let's say it doesn't work out
00:39:32.300
like that. You go through the observation, you go through the thoughts, you go through the feelings
00:39:35.460
and the wants, and let's say a partner's wants are different. Or let's say that your thoughts of
00:39:41.940
I'm not attractive anymore. She's like, yeah, that's exactly right. And it doesn't work out.
00:39:48.800
Like you just explained, like, what do you do from there?
00:39:51.280
Yeah. Because we've all had conversations like that where we're not aligned, we're not on the
00:39:55.720
same page. Let me talk quickly about the tactic part of it. And then I'll get to the, um, to,
00:40:00.820
to when this doesn't work out the way you want it. Cause man, do I get a load of those stories too?
00:40:05.320
Yeah. So tactically, like, let's go back to Brazilian jujitsu, right? When you learn a rear
00:40:11.480
naked choke, right. For the first time, you're like, okay. And I, to be honest, I don't know how to do
00:40:15.800
it, Ryan. So like, I'm okay. I got to do this and I got to put my arm here. And then I have to like
00:40:19.740
put the other arm here and then on the back of his neck. And then I got to bear down. So like
00:40:24.120
tactically, you're going through the steps one by one. Okay. This is what I do. So it's, it's,
00:40:28.380
it's, you're not in flow state. It doesn't come naturally and it feels awkward and clunky at first,
00:40:33.960
right? Because it's kind of a tactic. Now for you, you've been doing jujitsu, how long?
00:40:39.780
Uh, about three and a half, almost four years now.
00:40:42.080
Okay. So for you to throw in a rear naked choke, you probably don't even really have to even think
00:40:47.720
about it at this point. Right. Yeah. It's just part of how you operate now. And it's part of how
00:40:52.680
you do jujitsu tactically. When people first start learning these things, the feedback is this feels
00:40:58.320
really awkward. Well, good. It absolutely should because you haven't done it. It's a skill that you
00:41:02.760
haven't, but over time it just becomes the way you communicate. And for you, it just becomes the way
00:41:08.860
you defend yourself. So yeah, tactically it feels really awkward at first. And over time,
00:41:14.200
it just becomes a part of who you are now when things don't go the way that you want it and they
00:41:19.300
will. Right. So that's when, so like, if you're, if, if Jessica were to tell me like, yeah, you know,
00:41:27.660
it really boils down to, I haven't been as attracted to you as I used to be. And I'll be really honest,
00:41:35.000
Ryan, you know, we've gone through conversations like that.
00:41:37.560
I've had, I've had that conversation with my wife a hundred percent. I think most guys have,
00:41:42.900
Yeah. And this is where you really have to be. This is where curiosity and appreciation
00:41:48.380
really comes into play. Let me caution you with this too. Just because your wife is going to give
00:41:53.800
you feedback like this, that does not mean you're a doormat. That doesn't mean she talks to you
00:41:58.180
disrespectfully. My wife talks to me very respectfully, right? A lot of guys think like, well, if I ask for
00:42:03.300
feedback and I'm curious and I'm appreciative, then I can, she can just treat me however she wants.
00:42:07.280
She can call me names and walk all over me. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Okay. There
00:42:12.300
are boundaries that we operate within. So if I asked my wife, which I have, right. So she's like,
00:42:18.040
yeah, you know, I, to be honest, like, I, I'm just, I haven't been as attracted to you as I used to be.
00:42:23.240
Now for me, I'm like, yeah, it sucks. That stings. Right. And you're like, okay,
00:42:29.480
now here's, here's where I think men are, can be more evolved. Like, you know, you and I have been
00:42:35.780
doing this work for a long time. So I think for you and I, we can have conversations like that,
00:42:40.160
where it feels maybe a little bit more objective versus like, it still stings and it still sucks.
00:42:45.720
And it really freaking hurts. But at the same time, you're like, okay, I also know on the other side
00:42:50.500
of this feedback, I'm going to learn something and I'll learn what's going on for her because I'd
00:42:55.640
rather know than not know. So my wife, I also think Larry on that, just to interject real quick.
00:43:00.660
I also think that if we're being honest, the majority of the time we feel the same way,
00:43:07.640
you know, like the not attractive, I'd be willing to bet. Cause I know I have where I've put on,
00:43:12.920
you know, 20, 30 pounds and she's like, yeah, I'm just not as attracted to you. Or sex is kind of
00:43:18.600
awkward, you know, cause you're 30 pounds heavier. Like, okay. That's it. But if I look in the
00:43:23.740
mirror, I, I know that it's gotten at hand for me too. Yeah. And so if she's giving you that feedback,
00:43:32.660
that's good. She's actually giving you a roadmap. Yeah. Cause now, you know, okay, well,
00:43:38.880
she doesn't like the pot belly. What woman does, is there a woman? No. And also you probably don't
00:43:45.880
feel great about yourself either. So it's a win-win and at least she's willing to communicate.
00:43:51.340
What if she didn't communicate it with you? That's more dangerous. I think so. Totally more
00:43:56.620
dangerous. Um, you know, the feedback my wife gave me was earlier this year. Cause like I felt
00:44:02.500
distance between us. I did the exact same thing. This, this conversation was a real conversation
00:44:07.480
that we had last spring. I was in the best shape of my life. Cause I was getting ready for a show with
00:44:13.200
my 14 year old at the time. So I thought like, wait, how are you, why are you not attracted?
00:44:17.340
Well, it wasn't physical. She's like, she looked at me and she goes, and I've done shows in the past.
00:44:22.880
I haven't done one in 10 years. And she's like, I hate when you do shows. And I'm like, why? She goes,
00:44:28.040
because like you're disconnected, you're tired, you're irritable. You have less patience with the
00:44:33.160
kids. You have less patience with me. You don't really connect with me. Like you usually do. You,
00:44:38.860
you don't really talk to me as much. And, and plus like while you're training with Mason,
00:44:43.160
like I'm lifting all the heavy load over here and getting dinners ready and all this other stuff
00:44:47.360
while you guys are training. She's like, that really impacts how attracted I am to you as a,
00:44:52.720
as a man and husband. And I'm like, oh, so I had nothing to do with how I looked aesthetically.
00:44:57.300
It had everything to do with how I was operating and how distracted I was and how irritable I was.
00:45:02.260
And because my diet was so tight and like my patience was less with the kids. I was way quicker to anger.
00:45:08.160
And I was like, oh, I even told her, I was like, that sucks to hear that. I was like,
00:45:14.040
but you know what? There's some truth there. And now I know what I can do differently. Right? Because
00:45:20.900
now it's not a question mark. Now I knew. I think that goes back to our being genuinely curious
00:45:27.820
because if our curiosity ends at, um, an answer we don't like, then we probably really weren't
00:45:36.580
curious. We were trying to get to the bottom of something, or you're probably trying to get
00:45:40.520
somebody to say something to validate us. Yeah. Like, like, Hey, it seems like you're not
00:45:45.520
attracted to me anymore. And you're kind of waiting. Like, please say, like, please say
00:45:50.560
you're still attracted. And then she gives you something else and you're like, oh, and then you
00:45:55.420
blow up or you cry or you make it about you. And then that wasn't curiosity. That was manipulation.
00:46:01.220
You were just trying to get an answer that, that made you feel better about yourself.
00:46:04.640
Yep. Fishing for content. Yeah. Right. Yeah. If you were genuinely curious,
00:46:09.720
you would, and I'm saying, again, I'm saying you, I'm talking to me too, but if I was genuinely
00:46:14.760
curious, I would say, okay, thank you. What, what about me is not attractive to you? And then you
00:46:22.720
would actually go to work. Yep. Because curiosity requires the work, the follow-up, the follow
00:46:27.960
through on what you're talking with your kids or your partner or your client or whoever it is about.
00:46:36.600
Interesting. Interesting stuff, man. It's, it's, it's such a challenge because
00:46:41.240
there's another person who has a say in the matter.
00:46:46.500
Wouldn't it be easier if it's like, yeah, I can have conversations with other people,
00:46:49.960
but at the end of the day, it's like, it's going to be my way. And we, we try to do that. It doesn't
00:46:53.640
work though, obviously. Yeah. Here's the other thing too. And I don't know if you see this,
00:46:57.960
in iron council, I see this in the Alliance, but some guys will take what you and I just talked
00:47:05.160
about, you know, where they're asking for genuine feedback so they can pivot. Right. And their wife
00:47:10.620
completely bulldozes them. He masculates them, calls them names, yells at them. And some of the
00:47:17.180
guys think like, well, if I'm asking that, I just have to take that. I can, I have to be dis, you know,
00:47:23.220
it's part of the game. If I'm disrespected. No, it's not, you know, there are guardrails that
00:47:28.380
you have to put in your relationships. Like Jessica and I haven't have ways that we operate
00:47:32.800
that we do not deviate from. So like, for instance, if you have feedback like that for
00:47:37.060
the other person, you share that feedback out of love. You don't share it to put a knife in
00:47:43.120
somebody's back. Right. So my wife will gently, calmly, and she did gave me that feedback and she
00:47:50.320
didn't call me names. Like Jessica and I, 26 years I've known her. I have never called her a
00:47:54.860
bitch. She's never called me any names. She's never called me an asshole or anything like that.
00:47:58.700
You know, and when we have disagreements, we speak calmly to each other. Right. We don't like
00:48:03.360
go for the jugular. The other thing too, is any past transgressions that we've done, that we've
00:48:07.880
already overcome and gotten through, those are never brought up again. And a lot of people are like,
00:48:11.920
well, you remember that thing you did to me 10 years ago? And then it just goes in circles.
00:48:16.320
Right. So, you know, I, I would be, you know, if you're going to have conversations like this,
00:48:20.940
you have to agree with your wife on a way that you're going to operate and communicate
00:48:26.100
and being disrespected and emasculated is, it ain't one of them.
00:48:31.100
So do you, do you do that ahead of time? Like, do you come up with those guidelines ahead of time
00:48:35.980
or even in the spur of the moment, do you, Hey, look, that's out of bounds. Like,
00:48:40.680
how do you bring up those guardrails? Yeah. So Jessica and I brought up these guardrails
00:48:46.060
years and years and years ago. Right. And it is the way that we have stuck to, like, we,
00:48:50.840
you know, we have failed at quite a few things, but I, that's one thing that I can stake the flag
00:48:55.380
in, in the ground and say, we haven't deviated from that. And I think that's where a lot of
00:48:59.580
couples get tripped up. And this is where, you know, a triggered conversation will get triggered
00:49:04.600
is if you break the rules of how you communicate, right. If you're calling each other names,
00:49:09.600
like, if that's the way you're operating, you know, if you're screaming and yelling at each
00:49:13.700
other and, you know, just putting each other down, you're, you're not going to, you got to
00:49:17.740
solve that issue first before you can have better communication. So if that's, if that's taking
00:49:22.500
place, cause I imagine there's a lot of guys and even in the, I'm very similar in yours. Maybe,
00:49:29.280
maybe I have not been as good over our, uh, my wife and I, our history, the way that you guys have,
00:49:35.300
but we have been pretty good about that for the most part. Uh, and I think, I don't know if we've
00:49:42.000
ever spoken those rules necessarily, maybe they're just unspoken, but we've been pretty good about that
00:49:47.780
for the most part. If that's taking place in somebody's communication is a guy is a best for
00:49:54.520
a guy who hasn't established those guardrails or who has let that behavior happen in the past to him.
00:49:59.440
Um, is it best to call it out? Is it best to disengage in, in the moment? Like, how would
00:50:06.480
you, like, let's say your woman's calling you names or, or like attacking you personally.
00:50:14.060
What, what's the best course of action in the moment? If you have not yet established those
00:50:18.160
guardrails. Yeah. So I have, I have a client right now that we're working through that as we speak.
00:50:23.580
Right. And so an example that is, you know, he would have some heated conversations with his
00:50:29.740
wife and then she'd start calling them names. And then, so I coached during one of our coaching
00:50:34.840
sessions. I'm like, you guys have to establish not necessarily, not necessarily. You don't talk
00:50:40.740
to me that way, this and that, like basically you're the one calling the shots. What you have to do is
00:50:45.120
you have to come together before these things get heated and create an agreement, right? It's an
00:50:51.020
agreement. It's not because I want you to do this or you want me to do that. It's the agreement is
00:50:55.180
the, is the thing that actually holds the weight. It's not me. It's not you. It's the agreement that
00:50:59.520
we made. Right. So you have to come with the agreement first. If someone breaks the agreement,
00:51:04.320
like for instance, he got in a heated discussion with his wife, they created this agreement and he
00:51:09.180
looked at her and said, we agreed not to speak to each other this way. So I'm going to walk away.
00:51:13.160
And until we're willing to speak to each other in the way that we agreed upon, I'm not going to have
00:51:17.780
this conversation and he walked and his wife within the next hour came up to him and said,
00:51:23.140
you were right. I'm sorry. Let's talk again. But it was him standing. It is. It was him standing his
00:51:30.500
ground, not confidently, calmly. He didn't engage in calling her name back. He just simply emulated
00:51:38.080
the agreement that they made. And the fact that he was like, I'm not having this conversation until
00:51:43.420
we're aligned in the agreement once again. So I'm going to walk away. And when you're ready
00:51:47.020
to have the conversation with what we agreed upon, I'll come back.
00:51:51.220
It's a very masculine, manly approach. And I would go so far as to say, and I'm not saying
00:51:58.800
that women aren't capable of not being emotional. That's not what I'm saying. But I would go so far
00:52:03.820
as to say that to engage in that behavior based on emotion would be more of a feminine approach.
00:52:12.480
And to say, no, we agreed. I'm putting my foot down and I'm willing to come back to the table
00:52:18.180
when you're ready to engage the way that we said. That's a very masculine approach. And I think it
00:52:23.880
actually helps guys who have been emasculated start to reestablish some of that masculinity.
00:52:30.520
And by the way, that's very attractive to a woman.
00:52:35.880
Exactly. And yourself, you're leading yourself. You're saying, I'm worth being respected,
00:52:41.700
even in disagreement. I am worth being respected. And that's attractive to people.
00:52:46.160
Yep. There's one other example that I'll share here. And it's really quick, but I have,
00:52:51.120
um, uh, this individual works, works for me. And he went through years and years of just emotional
00:52:59.420
beat downs, you know, and through us talking, he finally had, he sat down with her one day and
00:53:05.620
this was about nine months ago. And their, their marriage has completely changed, totally changed.
00:53:10.660
He sat down with her very, very calmly. And he said, been doing a lot of thinking
00:53:14.400
and I am fully committed to you. I'm fully committed to this marriage and I love you.
00:53:20.360
And I'm also fully committed to ending this marriage. If you, if, if you keep treating me
00:53:27.240
the way you have and the way that we agreed upon, we, we didn't agree that you would treat me like
00:53:31.840
this. So if that's the case, I'm also committed to leaving. And he said it that calm. He's like,
00:53:37.220
dude, I don't know what it was for her, but boom, she hired a therapist. She got help.
00:53:43.440
She completely changed how she started talking to him, but it took that calm conversation that was
00:53:48.640
outside of like this emotionally charged argument that could have been right. But he stood his ground
00:53:53.580
and a level of assertiveness. Cause it would have been a, it would have been, and again, manly,
00:53:59.520
it would have been very easy to bury your head in the sand and not, not do anything about it,
00:54:05.700
not say anything about it. And eventually get so pissed off and then just blow up the marriage
00:54:09.860
and not even give your partner a chance to get better. Like that's not right either.
00:54:14.620
It's not, not at all. Awesome. Larry, look, man, I know you're on a hard stop here and I want to be
00:54:20.960
respectful of your time. You got to get going, but I've really appreciated our friendship. And of
00:54:25.320
course our conversations, even offline, the ones that aren't recorded, but this is really powerful.
00:54:30.640
Psychological safety, being able to create this in communication with your wife and kids,
00:54:33.900
tell the guys where they can connect with you to learn more about what you're doing and what you
00:54:38.000
have going on. Yeah. The best thing is just the dad edge.com. I mean, we've got all of our
00:54:43.100
resources there. I've got, I've got a couple of different things. So like free 25 intimate
00:54:48.840
conversation starters. It's a, it's a video training, which actually teaches men how to
00:54:53.960
create psychological safety, but also I give you a list through a PDF of 25 different questions that
00:54:59.620
you can use to deepen your intimacy and your connection with your wife that are conversation
00:55:03.260
starters. They're not just rapid fire questions. So that's a resource for you, but as far as the
00:55:07.840
podcast goes, I mean, you can find the podcast, I think literally everywhere now, wherever you
00:55:13.580
listen to podcasts, but, and then next year we have a data summit, you know, in October, we already
00:55:19.700
have 110 tickets sold for next year's event. So if you're wanting to do, if you want to be a part of
00:55:25.720
that, you can find that there as well. So, yep. And you just, you just wrapped the last summit up
00:55:31.680
last month in October. Yeah. Cool. It looked cool. I saw some pictures and some, some mutual friends
00:55:36.000
that had attended and had great things to say. So. Thank you, man. Yeah. I'm back at you. I don't
00:55:40.740
think I've ever met anybody who's gone to an order a man event who didn't just think it was
00:55:45.520
fricking awesome, man. So I know you put on. You just haven't met enough of them. That's it. I'm
00:55:49.320
sure. I'm sure. I'm sure they're out there. I'm sure of it. We try to do good, but we don't always
00:55:54.440
get it right. Larry, I appreciate you, brother. I really do. I don't take that word brother lightly.
00:55:58.520
I do really appreciate your friendship and all that you're doing for men and me as well. Thanks,
00:56:03.160
man. Back at you, man. All right, guys, there you go. My conversation with my good friend,
00:56:08.060
Larry Hagner. I hope you enjoyed that one. I took a lot of notes. There was a few pauses,
00:56:13.200
awkward silences in the conversation. That wasn't because I didn't know what to say. It was because
00:56:18.160
I was taking copious notes and jotting everything down because this is really, really going to serve
00:56:23.740
me well. And I hope it does for you too. Make sure to connect with Larry. Take a screenshot of
00:56:28.980
the podcast right now on your phone and post it up on Instagram. Tag, Larry, tag myself.
00:56:34.000
Let guys know what you're listening to. Go check out his books. Go check out his podcast.
00:56:39.180
Look at origin USA for their brand new hunt line of 100% made and sourced in America.
00:56:44.040
And then also check out our battle ready program at order a man.com slash battle ready again,
00:56:50.920
order a man.com slash battle ready. All right, guys, you have your marching orders. We'll be back
00:56:55.360
tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action and become the man you are
00:57:00.760
meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your
00:57:05.580
life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.