Order of Man - LARRY HAGNER ｜ How to Build a Movement of Men

00:00:00.000 For many of you, this is the first Order of Man podcast you've ever listened to.

00:00:04.000 And for many of you, you've listened to all 1,100 plus shows that we've done.

00:00:09.040 Regardless, what you may not know is that we've been at this mission to reclaim and

00:00:13.340 restore masculinity for almost nine years.

00:00:16.380 And I can't think of a better way than to wind down this year as we ramp up for 2024

00:00:21.600 with a man, friend, and mentor who has been in the same game just as long as we have.

00:00:27.320 His name is Larry Hagner, founder of The Dad Edge.

00:00:30.560 And today, we talk about turning a passion into a profession, how we can best learn from

00:00:36.040 our past, the key of forgiveness and what it unlocks in ourselves and others, how to raise

00:00:41.600 each of our unique children, and how to create a men's movement that matters.

00:00:47.140 You're a man of action.

00:00:48.400 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:52.620 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:57.320 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:02.340 This is your life.

00:01:03.420 This is who you are.

00:01:04.880 This is who you will become.

00:01:06.600 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:11.800 Gentlemen, what is going on today?

00:01:13.100 My name is Ryan Mickler.

00:01:14.460 I'm your host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement.

00:01:17.940 Welcome here today and welcome back.

00:01:20.140 I've got a very special one with a good friend, a brother, a mentor, somebody who has been in

00:01:28.100 the trenches in this battle to reclaim and restore masculinity for a long time.

00:01:31.900 In fact, just as long as I have, we started at very similar times.

00:01:35.380 Before I get into that today, I want to mention two things very briefly.

00:01:39.700 Number one, our Brotherhood, the Iron Council opens up on the 15th.

00:01:44.220 So in a few short days, we're going to be opening up over at orderofman.com slash iron council.

00:01:50.000 Go watch a quick video over there.

00:01:52.160 See if it's what you're about and if it's something that you're interested in.

00:01:54.980 I think if you incorporate what we teach and the principles and tools and resources we have

00:02:00.300 available, you're going to have a killer year as we roll into the new year.

00:02:03.880 Check that out at orderofman.com slash iron council.

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00:02:52.980 All right, guys, let me introduce you to my good friend.

00:02:55.620 Like I said earlier, a fellow podcaster and leader of men, Larry Hagner.

00:02:59.620 He is the founder of the dad edge podcast and movement and started podcasting about the

00:03:05.040 same time I did here with order of man.

00:03:07.560 Larry and I share very similar personal stories of growing up without a permanent father figure

00:03:12.880 in our home and being exposed to situations that challenged a real healthy perspective

00:03:18.500 of masculinity as a young impressionable man.

00:03:23.000 Larry has made it his life's work to share his message, tools and systems with dads all

00:03:27.700 over the world to teach them how to raise children and lead their families.

00:03:32.440 Well, gentlemen, enjoy this one with my good friend, Larry Hagner.

00:03:38.800 Larry, my friend, it's so good to see you.

00:03:41.200 We talk more than people might know, but we don't do very many podcasts together.

00:03:44.880 So this is a, this is a rarity.

00:03:47.600 This is a rarity, but it's fun, man.

00:03:49.700 And I think, I think one of the best ways to start this is maybe just share how we even

00:03:55.040 met.

00:03:55.500 Do you believe that this April in 2024, it's going to be, it's going to be nine years,

00:04:00.140 man.

00:04:00.440 It's almost a decade years.

00:04:01.740 Yeah.

00:04:02.100 It's so weird.

00:04:03.240 It's crazy.

00:04:04.080 I remember starting this and you were going to tell me how we met.

00:04:06.920 I'm like, hold on, hold on, hold on.

00:04:07.880 Cause I didn't, I don't remember.

00:04:09.320 I almost feel, I almost feel a little bad that I don't remember how, maybe I will, when

00:04:13.700 you share it, how, how did we first meet?

00:04:15.440 I just remember on my end, like what I remember about it.

00:04:19.060 And I always know that when we share, when people share stories of how they met, you know,

00:04:22.740 sometimes it's, it's all due to interpretation, but here's how I remember.

00:04:25.740 So I started the good dad project podcast, which is obviously now the dad edge in April

00:04:31.120 of 2015.

00:04:32.980 And I don't even know how I got connected with this guy.

00:04:36.340 And I think it's Louis Cognon was his name.

00:04:38.960 Oh yeah.

00:04:39.500 But he was, yeah.

00:04:40.920 So he had this giant, Louis.

00:04:42.960 Yeah.

00:04:43.240 He had this giant, you know, uh, group and I can't remember what the, what the group was

00:04:48.160 called, but it was basically for podcasters who were looking to help other podcasters.

00:04:52.740 And it was a free group and he had a huge Excel spreadsheet for us to go in and listen

00:04:58.660 and rate and review each other's podcasts.

00:05:01.700 And so I remember going in there and there was a lot of, there's, there was podcasts all

00:05:05.760 every, over every genre possible.

00:05:08.900 And I remember, I remember specifically looking for other guys who were podcasting, right?

00:05:15.040 Because I really want to connect with other men and yours.

00:05:17.260 I was like, order a man.

00:05:18.360 I was like, that's really interesting.

00:05:19.320 And I went in and I listened to, I think one or two of your episodes, but I listened

00:05:23.940 to one of them.

00:05:24.700 That was your story.

00:05:25.940 And I was like, holy shit.

00:05:27.960 I was like, this guy's story is almost identical as mine.

00:05:31.560 And then I think it was me that messaged you.

00:05:34.180 And I said, Hey man, I just, I just rated and reviewed your show.

00:05:37.120 And I just want to say, man, like your background of mine is pretty, pretty crazy similar.

00:05:41.560 And I just want to connect with you and basically say hello.

00:05:43.660 And then it, I don't remember exactly what happened from there, but it, it turned into

00:05:48.220 us going on each other's podcasts, connecting, and then, uh, and then having a friendship

00:05:54.060 with you now for the past nine years.

00:05:56.240 Yeah.

00:05:56.780 That I do remember Luis.

00:05:58.160 And I remember that, uh, that group that we were part of and connecting with you.

00:06:02.820 And I'm like, Oh, finally, somebody is actually having this conversation because I remember

00:06:06.720 when we started nine years ago, not many people were happy.

00:06:11.380 I don't know if there was anyone, I mean, the, really the only person that comes to mind

00:06:15.180 is Brett McKay with art of manliness.

00:06:17.200 Yep.

00:06:17.720 Yeah.

00:06:18.060 He was, yeah.

00:06:18.960 And he was doing phenomenal work.

00:06:21.020 What was that?

00:06:22.220 I think there was another one too.

00:06:23.640 Dad tired.

00:06:24.300 It was more towards dads, but it was, it was definitely another guy show.

00:06:27.500 Okay.

00:06:27.920 Yeah.

00:06:28.460 But, but yeah, Brett McKay was definitely the guy then.

00:06:31.420 Yeah.

00:06:32.300 I mean, he's a huge inspiration for me and I think Brett does good work, but it's a little

00:06:37.040 bit different.

00:06:37.740 You know, I remember the first, this one's funny.

00:06:39.720 Like my first article, I'd have to actually go back and look and see if it's still on

00:06:43.820 the website was how to throw a baseball.

00:06:48.020 Yeah.

00:06:48.860 Yeah.

00:06:49.120 That was my first article.

00:06:50.500 That was the first one.

00:06:51.400 Fastball, four seam, two seam, curveball, knuckleball, change up, et cetera, et cetera.

00:06:55.480 Which I think, you know, every man should know how to throw some basic pitches to his

00:06:59.320 son or whoever it might be.

00:07:01.380 But that was very art of manliness esque.

00:07:04.740 Yeah.

00:07:05.100 And, and as much as I think Brett's doing a phenomenal job in that department, there

00:07:11.140 was a real gap in the kind of conversations that you and I are having now, which are more,

00:07:15.540 more deep and meaningful rather than here's how to throw a baseball.

00:07:20.400 Here's how to, how to dress.

00:07:21.740 And all these things are applicable for men, but man, I wanted to go so much deeper than

00:07:25.440 that.

00:07:25.660 And I'm really, really fortunate that you and I found that niche as quickly as we did.

00:07:32.260 And do you think it was, do you think it was luck or timing or strategy or intelligence?

00:07:39.480 I mean, I know for me, it's not the latter, but what do you think when you think back about

00:07:44.940 how it's been for you and your growth over the past nine years?

00:07:47.840 Cause I've thought a lot about this for myself.

00:07:50.540 I mean, I, I share this story quite a bit, which is kind of, it's, it's just kind of funny,

00:07:54.760 which is I actually, I had, I had the ideas for 10 good shows.

00:08:00.260 And then after that, I was like, man, I was like, after these 10 shows, I think I'm like

00:08:05.340 on God's good humor.

00:08:06.160 And I gotta be honest, like I, uh, this was a hobby for me in the beginning.

00:08:10.000 And I was like, I'm not really sure where this is going to go.

00:08:12.200 And then I know you just crossed over, over 1100 episodes a few weeks ago, we just crossed

00:08:17.660 over 1100 episodes and I'm actually floored at, I don't call it luck for anything because

00:08:25.120 I think you and I both know that we work extremely hard doing this work and we work and we're

00:08:32.280 diligent and we're consistent.

00:08:33.780 Like I I've seen over the years too.

00:08:35.360 And I know, you know, other podcasters and content creators like this, where they'll,

00:08:39.680 they'll go strong for like a season or like six months or maybe even a year.

00:08:43.780 And then they're like, oh, you know, I just kind of do it every now and again.

00:08:46.480 And as far as I know, I don't think you've ever missed one show.

00:08:50.800 I've never missed one show in the nine years that we've been doing this.

00:08:54.340 It's always been consistent.

00:08:56.960 Yeah.

00:08:57.480 To be fair, there's a little asterisk by, by my record.

00:09:02.460 I want to be, I've been really transparent about my life, especially over the past year

00:09:08.020 and a half where, uh, there was, there was probably three to five shows that were replays

00:09:13.960 from previous shows where I just, I couldn't do it, man.

00:09:17.160 Like I tried to get up and record and I'm like, I'm going to talk to these guys about being

00:09:21.460 a better man.

00:09:22.080 And I'm over here, you know, losing my marriage.

00:09:25.060 Yeah.

00:09:25.520 To your point about luck.

00:09:26.820 I think, I think you're right.

00:09:28.600 It's not luck.

00:09:29.420 There's a lot of people who will say things like, oh, you know, I've had people say this.

00:09:33.120 Tell me if you've heard this.

00:09:34.760 Oh, I wish I could dink around on Facebook or social media all day.

00:09:38.820 As if that's what you and I do.

00:09:40.420 Right.

00:09:41.160 I'm like, yeah, sure.

00:09:41.780 Go ahead and do that.

00:09:42.600 See how that works out for you.

00:09:44.020 Yeah.

00:09:44.800 But I also think if I'm being honest, there is an element of maybe it's not luck, but

00:09:50.280 timing maybe.

00:09:52.100 I mean, we, we hit it right.

00:09:53.840 Nine years ago.

00:09:55.400 I remember times where I'd, I don't know, walk into a gas station and start talking with

00:10:00.900 a friend or an acquaintance and they're asking what I do for work.

00:10:04.280 And I would tell them I have a podcast and they'd say, well, what's your real job?

00:10:08.440 You know, these were the early days of podcasting where not a lot of people knew what a podcast

00:10:13.260 was or that you could even make money doing what we're doing.

00:10:17.700 Yeah.

00:10:17.760 I still get that to this day.

00:10:19.280 They're like, you know, and I'll joke with people that don't, that don't know about the

00:10:23.680 data edge just because I just want to see what their reaction is sometimes.

00:10:26.740 Like, what do you do for a living?

00:10:27.720 I was like, I make a living on a microphone.

00:10:29.700 Like, oh, you're a DJ.

00:10:30.940 Are you on the radio?

00:10:31.620 I was like, no, I was like, I have a podcast.

00:10:33.260 And they're like, and they, they usually look at me like, you can make a living at

00:10:36.960 that.

00:10:37.180 So like, I hear that question a lot or the same thing.

00:10:40.500 They're like, do you have a full-time job?

00:10:41.980 I was like, that is my full-time job.

00:10:43.360 Um, I, I podcast, I write books, we coach, speak, we hold events.

00:10:47.940 Like it's, it's a, it's a huge organization, but yeah, I think it's, it's really interesting.

00:10:52.680 I think back then when you and I first started, it was even more of a question mark.

00:10:57.540 Like, wait a second.

00:10:58.160 Like how in the world can you actually create an organization, a business, a movement, bring

00:11:02.940 value to others by just doing that, you know?

00:11:05.460 But I think people, I think people know a little bit more today than they did then.

00:11:09.340 Yeah, I, I think so.

00:11:11.080 I think, I think it's more available.

00:11:13.280 I, I actually have seen over the past nine years that there's this growing movement of

00:11:18.380 men who really do want to connect with other men, whether it's locally, regionally, digitally

00:11:23.980 across the globe and planet, which is our things that you and I are both doing in our own right.

00:11:29.700 It's pretty inspiring to see, and to know that both you and I were a big part of that.

00:11:35.580 And, and I, and I try not to let my ego get the better of me, but if we're looking at it

00:11:40.580 as objectively as we possibly can, I can't really point to many other figures except

00:11:47.100 for Brett McKay and, and, and a handful of other guys who have been as instrumental as

00:11:52.460 what we've been able to do in this men's arena, if you will, than, than we have over the past

00:11:58.020 nearly decade now.

00:11:59.560 Yeah, there hasn't been, I think there's been a few guys in the space that have definitely

00:12:02.980 created, you know, some ripples here and there.

00:12:04.920 Yeah.

00:12:05.040 I look at a guy like John Broman, who's got front row dads.

00:12:07.900 He's, he's doing some, some really fantastic work.

00:12:11.280 You know, I, I see other guys like, you know, I mean, Garrett White, you know, he's a, he's

00:12:14.660 an warrior, but you know, he's doing men's work as well.

00:12:17.080 But I, I think we're seeing a, a higher level, higher number of men who are, who are trying

00:12:22.340 to do the work.

00:12:23.480 Uh, but, but, you know, I, I do look at us 10 years ago and it is quite fascinating.

00:12:28.780 I think you and I were, were a part of the few that were just like, yeah, we'll, we'll go

00:12:34.000 ahead and go first.

00:12:34.680 I mean, I know Brett was kind of like the first, but you know, I, I would say we were

00:12:38.360 more of the originals and, and I know some of the things we're going to be discussing

00:12:41.200 today is just some, some of the enlightening things that we've learned over the years doing

00:12:45.580 this work now in nine years.

00:12:47.860 I, my question is, and, and I'm always trying to break down successful people.

00:12:52.220 So guys that listen to the podcast, they know this, they know what you do.

00:12:55.100 They know what I do.

00:12:55.900 Um, I'm really intrigued and fascinated by successful individuals, male or female doesn't

00:13:02.340 matter to me if they're successful in their own right.

00:13:04.340 I want to know how, why, where, what, when all the questions, right.

00:13:08.000 And that's what we do on our podcast.

00:13:10.460 I'm really curious what you think.

00:13:13.340 Again, I'm trying to be as objective as possible.

00:13:15.400 And objectively we have had both you and I have had a lot of success in this.

00:13:19.560 What, what do you attribute that to?

00:13:21.720 Because I want to figure out what it is so I can double down on it and, and, and figure

00:13:26.900 out a way that we can serve not hundreds of thousands, not millions, but tens and hundreds

00:13:32.480 of millions of men across the planet.

00:13:35.120 So the feedback that I've gotten on why the data edge resonates with people.

00:13:40.200 And I think, to be honest, like if I look at your journey, even the past over the past

00:13:44.480 year, year and a half, the feedback that I've gotten over and over again is you're a

00:13:49.500 real guy.

00:13:50.460 Like you're a real imperfect person who's, who's still on this quest of learning.

00:13:56.560 And when I know when I'm behind this microphone or we're doing any type of teaching, the way

00:14:01.940 I've, I have always viewed it as yes, I'm a leader.

00:14:04.460 Yes.

00:14:04.640 I've, I've learned quite a few instrumental lessons that have helped me in marriage.

00:14:09.440 That has helped me raise my kids.

00:14:10.920 That have helped me in my own mental and emotional state, even physically, you know, even in business.

00:14:15.980 But I will never, ever think that I know everything.

00:14:19.640 And I will always, always be a lifelong learner.

00:14:22.500 Always.

00:14:23.140 Like, I mean, you and I started this movement before you and I even had teenagers and now

00:14:28.340 we're raising teenagers.

00:14:29.480 So it's like, even now, like, I'm so curious to constantly learn.

00:14:33.840 I think that's why you do the podcast.

00:14:35.140 That's why I do the podcast because I genuinely want to talk to people who are experts in their

00:14:40.940 field, who are smarter than I am.

00:14:42.880 So I can learn.

00:14:44.000 And the way that I view this thing is, is we can all learn.

00:14:47.740 Let's all go learn together.

00:14:49.400 You know, yes.

00:14:49.880 Do you and I know a thing or two?

00:14:51.220 Cause we've been at the helm of this thing.

00:14:52.880 Absolutely.

00:14:53.720 Do we know everything?

00:14:54.900 Not at all.

00:14:55.560 But I think the more we communicate, like, listen, I know a thing or two, but I'm also a

00:15:00.480 student right there learning with you.

00:15:02.460 And we all get to learn together, but it's really the authenticity.

00:15:05.760 I think that's more relatable.

00:15:07.300 So I think as soon as we start preaching from the pulpit, I think that's when people shut

00:15:12.380 down a little bit when they don't even view you as a real person with, with problems that

00:15:16.420 are even similar to theirs.

00:15:19.140 Yeah.

00:15:20.060 Yeah.

00:15:20.420 I think that's true is that you're down in the trenches, so to speak, with, with, with

00:15:24.880 the guys going through the same issues, going through the same struggles, going through

00:15:28.400 the same problems.

00:15:29.360 And, and maybe you can shed some light on how to overcome it, man.

00:15:34.280 I thought that about with, with what we're doing, especially, I thought, I thought my

00:15:38.520 business was going to collapse.

00:15:39.740 I thought this movement was going to collapse when I talked, started talking about alcohol

00:15:43.920 abuse and what should eventually led to the breakdown of my marriage and divorce.

00:15:49.600 I honestly, I thought we're done here.

00:15:52.040 This is it.

00:15:52.640 And, and I would have understood actually, you know, like, I don't think that would be

00:15:57.760 unreasonable, but I found the opposite.

00:16:00.220 I'm sure.

00:16:00.840 I think more people have rallied around what we're doing.

00:16:03.400 More people recognize the realness of what we're doing.

00:16:06.420 And there's a humility that I've tried to approach the conversations I have with that.

00:16:12.040 And I was getting a little arrogant.

00:16:13.620 I was getting a little big for my britches if I'm looking back at it.

00:16:16.680 And, and now I don't feel that way just because life has a way of, you know, kicking you in

00:16:20.700 the balls and telling you, you're not as good as you think you are.

00:16:23.620 Maybe it's not life.

00:16:24.580 I should not attribute it to life.

00:16:25.940 I did it to myself.

00:16:27.080 You know, that's probably a better way to look at it.

00:16:29.540 But I've, but I found thousands of men who were like, oh, thank you.

00:16:33.920 Like, what do you mean?

00:16:34.580 Thank you.

00:16:35.380 Like, thank you for telling me that, like, I, I didn't have this all figured out and I

00:16:40.620 failed my family.

00:16:41.720 Like, what do you mean?

00:16:42.360 Thank you.

00:16:43.360 Thank you for being real.

00:16:44.620 You know, thank you for telling me your struggles.

00:16:47.540 Now I know that if you can overcome it, I can overcome it because you're a regular dude.

00:16:51.000 And that's right.

00:16:51.460 That's all I am.

00:16:52.280 That's all you are.

00:16:53.300 But man, these people prop themselves up on pedestals.

00:16:56.240 And, and I would just tell guys that listen to what we're doing is be careful of propping

00:17:00.600 even us, you and me on pedestals.

00:17:02.360 Like, don't put us on a pedestal.

00:17:03.860 Don't, please do not put me up on a pedestal.

00:17:06.460 Listen to the message, you know, implement it to the degree that you can or have a desire to,

00:17:10.720 but don't prop me up.

00:17:13.120 Cause I will, I promise I'll fail you.

00:17:15.040 I will a hundred percent.

00:17:16.680 I will fail.

00:17:17.520 I failed.

00:17:18.400 And I, and I will at some point in the future fail you if you do that.

00:17:21.920 So listen to the message, apply what works for you, but don't, don't ever worship a human

00:17:27.900 being.

00:17:28.300 Right.

00:17:28.900 In any degree.

00:17:30.320 I a hundred percent agree with that.

00:17:32.100 You know, we always say, I don't know if you remember the, uh, the hair club for men

00:17:35.580 commercials where the guy, like, I mean, like I, I still remember those commercials to this

00:17:42.160 day, you know, like being a little kid watching those commercials and I'll never forget the

00:17:46.740 guy saying like, you know, Hey, not only am I the founder and the president, but I'm also

00:17:50.220 a client.

00:17:50.780 He holds up that picture of him being bald before.

00:17:53.060 And while that's really funny, but there's that relatability factor.

00:17:56.780 It's like when guys are watching that, they're like, Holy shit.

00:17:58.960 Like this guy understands firsthand.

00:18:01.180 He's not just like, you know, this perfect, you know, individual who's, you know, wealthy

00:18:06.440 and whatever, but he understands exactly where I'm at and what I'm probably going through.

00:18:12.940 I think there's a lot to be said about that relatability.

00:18:15.160 I think when people are very authentic, especially leaders, I think it just, it makes you gravitate

00:18:22.640 towards them even more that message, even more because they're like, well, man, like if

00:18:27.480 this guy can overcome things, well, what, what, what am I capable of?

00:18:31.640 Right.

00:18:32.640 Yeah.

00:18:33.540 Well, even that term is interesting to me.

00:18:35.840 Authentic because when I hear it, what I hear, I hear it through the marketing lens.

00:18:40.880 Cause I'm a marketer.

00:18:41.620 I mean, that's part of what we do.

00:18:42.940 We market our business and our movement and we try to communicate it in a way that will

00:18:46.740 reach as many men as possible and serve them in a positive way.

00:18:51.320 When I hear authentic, I mean, that, that term has been bastardized.

00:18:54.620 And it's almost synonymous with disingenuous, like you'll be authentic.

00:19:01.620 And then they create this thing and it's like, is that the real you?

00:19:04.820 That's what I was creating.

00:19:05.960 Is that the real me?

00:19:06.780 No, this is the real me now where it's, you know, stripped down of, of that bravado and

00:19:12.380 that, that ego and, and you know, the, the, the showmanship that, that came with that.

00:19:18.640 And I see a lot of guys who I'm close with personally that are doing the same thing.

00:19:24.640 And I've talked to them, Hey, look, pride comes before the fall.

00:19:27.720 I'm only telling you that.

00:19:28.740 Cause I love you.

00:19:29.380 I care about you and I don't want to see you fall the way that I did, but it's hard to

00:19:34.860 convince somebody the path that are going down is not a positive one.

00:19:39.760 Well, I agree.

00:19:41.420 I mean, I think we see those people, you know, online and there is a certain, there, there's

00:19:47.660 a lot of ego with some folks and I get that.

00:19:50.340 And, you know, maybe that works for them, but what I've noticed is leaders will attract,

00:19:56.180 I think people that follow them that they attract and that type of leader attracts a certain

00:20:02.020 type of person.

00:20:02.780 And to be quite honest, um, I don't know if I'm really interested in that.

00:20:07.000 You know, I I'm more interested in, for instance, me guys like you and I, like, you know, to

00:20:13.020 where that, that pride and that bravado is, I think it's, it's there to some degree, but

00:20:19.220 there's a ton of realness behind that, you know?

00:20:22.460 And I, and I think those are some lessons that we've had to learn over the years.

00:20:25.840 I mean, one thing in particular, you know, one of the lessons I want to learn that I want

00:20:29.960 to share with you.

00:20:31.740 Cause I know one of the things we talked about was lessons learned is I remember starting

00:20:35.800 this movement and I did it for number one.

00:20:40.900 I really want to learn how to be a better father and husband.

00:20:43.680 Cause I didn't feel like I had the tools, but I got to be honest.

00:20:46.180 I also did it because there was a part of me that was angry and unforgiving of my dad.

00:20:53.220 You know, my, my dad left when I was one, you know, I, I ran in, you know, I had a relationship

00:20:57.760 with him, a very short one when I was 12 that lasted six months.

00:21:01.180 And then he was out again and then I didn't meet him until I was 30 and that was by accident.

00:21:07.280 And I, I gotta be honest, Ryan.

00:21:08.740 I mean, there was a part of me, it's like, I'm so passionate about this movement and I

00:21:14.320 don't want any man to experience what I did.

00:21:18.340 And I don't want any of his kids to experience what I did growing up.

00:21:21.960 And I gotta admit, when I first started this, there was, there was some anger that really

00:21:26.360 fueled this.

00:21:27.280 Like it really fueled it.

00:21:29.860 And what I've learned, and I know you've recently just interviewed Gary John Bishop.

00:21:34.140 And so did I, and I read his book, his last book, I've read it three times.

00:21:37.880 It's called grow up, you know, become the parents your kids deserve.

00:21:40.940 There's a chapter in there that really made me dig deep and really evolve and grow.

00:21:46.840 And it was, it was a tough growing pain, but it's, it's incredible relieving now.

00:21:50.840 So I, I don't, I used to look at my dad as well, he left because he didn't care or he

00:21:58.880 left because he had other things going on.

00:22:00.980 And if I'm being really real, a lot of us, I don't think really look at our own parents

00:22:05.360 as human beings.

00:22:06.040 We look at them as parents and they should have done a better job.

00:22:09.420 And the way that Gary's message really resonated with me and the, and the element around forgiveness

00:22:14.680 is, you know, my dad is a human being.

00:22:17.720 And actually I give him a shit ton of credit right now.

00:22:21.080 And I'm going to share why here in a second, but my dad was raised in a really abusive

00:22:26.800 environment.

00:22:27.400 I won't go into the details for his privacy, but it was, it was bad.

00:22:31.120 He was also adopted.

00:22:32.860 So it was, it was a really tumultuous upbringing for him.

00:22:36.920 And there's a lot of things he went through.

00:22:38.480 Well, then he meets my mom, you know, when he's like 21 years old, he's still a kid.

00:22:42.320 He's in the military off to Vietnam, sees a lot of things, deals with PTSD, then becomes

00:22:49.040 a father at the young age of 25, trying to navigate that, moving all over the country

00:22:54.560 to different, different stations.

00:22:56.680 And all the while trying to make this marriage work, trying to be a brand new father while

00:23:00.960 also dealing with his own trauma.

00:23:02.740 And I used to think my dad left because he didn't care when in actuality, my dad left

00:23:08.020 because he felt that he was actually doing more harm than good.

00:23:11.140 Now, whether we agree with that was the right move or not, that's not the, that's not the

00:23:14.740 point, but here's what I will tell you.

00:23:17.340 My dad is 75 years old now and I've forgiven him and I actually give him quite a bit of credit

00:23:25.780 now because the guy opened up his entire life back up to me and my whole family 18 years

00:23:33.780 ago.

00:23:34.560 He didn't have to do that.

00:23:35.940 He still shows up to all, to, to my kids, football games, to the wrestling meets, to

00:23:40.960 their little league games.

00:23:42.200 We still see him on holidays.

00:23:43.760 We spend time with him.

00:23:44.900 And I know for him, that isn't probably the easiest thing in the world because my entire

00:23:49.960 family knows the past, but they also know, you know, there's been forgiveness there, but

00:23:56.500 I actually give the guy a lot of credit now and a lot of bravery and a lot of strength

00:24:02.380 that I didn't use to before, because at the end of the day, the guy is a human being

00:24:05.540 that just didn't make the right, right decision.

00:24:08.040 But the only people that one thing I've really realized, and I'll finish up here is that when

00:24:13.740 we hold that grudge or we harbor that unforgiveness, it just eats us alive.

00:24:17.980 It does nothing to him, just eats us alive.

00:24:20.180 And, and just recently I've, I've let it go in the past, but just recently, man, I've really

00:24:25.900 let it go and just been at peace with it.

00:24:30.240 Well, one thing I'm hearing you as you say that is like, you don't, there's so many guys

00:24:34.520 that deal with forgiveness and a lot with their fathers.

00:24:37.260 Like you're talking about, I personally don't have that issue.

00:24:39.880 I don't hold any ill will.

00:24:41.060 I don't think I ever really did.

00:24:42.540 I think there's probably some conditioning that maybe I act on subconsciously, but I

00:24:47.400 don't think I ever had real hatred or hostility or animosity towards my father.

00:24:52.560 But one thing that I like about what you're saying is that there's real empowerment in

00:24:56.980 forgiving somebody else.

00:24:58.380 You know, you, you may have been the link that he needed.

00:25:01.940 I don't know.

00:25:02.580 I don't know enough about your story, but you may have been the link that he needed to re-engage

00:25:07.080 to, to get back into it.

00:25:09.580 If you offered and afforded him grace, you didn't have to do that.

00:25:12.780 And I don't even think you can say this about yourself because of the pride conversation

00:25:16.600 we're having.

00:25:17.740 But I would say to you from the outside, looking in is your willingness to be the bigger man

00:25:22.480 and offer some grace and forgiveness might've been the key that he needed to unshackle himself

00:25:27.800 from shame and guilt and remorse and sorrow over decades of knowing that he wasn't doing

00:25:33.780 what he should have been doing.

00:25:35.160 And you released him from that by forgiving.

00:25:37.660 That's powerful.

00:25:38.220 So thanks, man.

00:25:40.140 Thank you.

00:25:42.100 You know, I, I'm, I'm, I'm curious about you though, with your dad.

00:25:45.240 I know that your dad, your dad left.

00:25:46.980 How old were you?

00:25:48.240 Remind me.

00:25:48.700 Three.

00:25:49.260 Yeah, it was three.

00:25:50.720 Yeah.

00:25:51.500 But we always had a pretty decent relationship, um, for, for, for what it was, you know, he

00:25:56.520 lived in a different place than I did.

00:25:58.120 And, um, I, I would go see him once or twice a year.

00:26:01.080 And I remember my mom telling me, she always knew when it was time for me to see my dad, because

00:26:05.460 I'd get really angry and frustrated and restless.

00:26:08.380 But if I went and visited him, then I would come back without that.

00:26:12.940 Uh, it was a little different.

00:26:13.960 And I think that's something that just men bring into other men's lives and specifically

00:26:18.800 with their sons.

00:26:19.580 Uh, that temperament, right.

00:26:21.960 To be able to temper the anger and the masculinity that's coursing through our veins.

00:26:25.980 So, yeah, I mean, we had, we had a strained relationship, I think is how I would describe

00:26:29.820 it, but never any hostility or animosity towards him.

00:26:33.360 I actually ended up missing his death.

00:26:35.600 He was in the hospital and I pushed it off and pushed it off and pushed it off and thought

00:26:40.840 he was going to be okay.

00:26:41.620 And I actually ended up missing his passing by 30 minutes.

00:26:46.180 I went down to California.

00:26:48.020 Yeah.

00:26:48.860 That was rough, man.

00:26:49.780 That was about five, six years ago now.

00:26:51.480 And my mom called me and said, Hey, your dad had a heart attack.

00:26:56.060 You know, you should get ahold of him.

00:26:57.540 I got, he'll be okay.

00:26:58.260 Cause he had another heart attack before.

00:27:00.500 And she's like, nah, I really think you should get ahold of him.

00:27:02.700 I know that's okay.

00:27:03.300 He's fine.

00:27:04.080 The next day, Hey, dad's struggling.

00:27:06.960 Like give him a call.

00:27:07.860 I'm like, nah.

00:27:08.320 The next day she's like, Hey, you really need to come down and see his, his internal

00:27:14.180 organs are shutting down.

00:27:16.080 Uh, he's not doing well.

00:27:17.060 He's probably going to pass away.

00:27:19.180 Wow.

00:27:19.280 So I loaded my two oldest boys with me and I said, all right, let's go.

00:27:22.180 We drove to California and about 30 minutes out, my mom called me and she said, Hey, uh,

00:27:26.960 where are you?

00:27:27.960 I said, well, we're like 30 minutes away.

00:27:29.380 She's like, okay, hurry and get here.

00:27:30.580 You know, we'll see when you get here.

00:27:33.320 And I got there and I met her in the lobby of the hospital and she had two.

00:27:38.300 And I kind of knew what was coming.

00:27:41.920 And she said, Hey, I'm really sorry.

00:27:43.760 Your dad died 30 minutes ago.

00:27:47.820 And man, that sucked.

00:27:50.020 Like, I did not know that.

00:27:52.500 I didn't know that.

00:27:53.200 Yeah.

00:27:54.000 I left my two oldest boys in the lobby with my mom, their grandmother.

00:27:57.200 And I went in and, you know, just, just to see my dad sitting there in his lifeless body,

00:28:02.460 somebody that I love, you know, and, and actually looking at it now, I have a lot of respect for

00:28:07.600 him in a lot of ways.

00:28:09.100 There's still some things that I think he could have handled differently.

00:28:12.300 But I think if he was here in this conversation with us, he would say the exact same thing.

00:28:16.240 I think he would probably acknowledge that.

00:28:18.160 And I think if I gave him the chance to do that and I didn't, he, he would have acknowledged

00:28:22.880 it when I had the chance to talk to him, but I never gave that to him.

00:28:27.260 And I think the lesson there, at least for me, and hopefully somebody else can walk away

00:28:31.880 with this is I know there's a lot of guys who are struggling with the relationship and

00:28:34.960 the bond between their father.

00:28:36.080 If you have an opportunity to make it right to some degree, whether it's just expressing

00:28:40.740 how you feel, regardless of the outcome of that scenario or saying, Hey dad, I forgive

00:28:48.640 you or saying, Hey dad, I'm sorry, man.

00:28:51.760 If you have the opportunity to do that and release him from what he needs to be really,

00:28:57.140 you have the key.

00:28:58.320 He doesn't have it.

00:28:59.320 You have it.

00:29:00.540 If you can release him from that and you can release yourself from that, take advantage of

00:29:05.440 that while you can.

00:29:06.260 Cause it's gone like that.

00:29:08.700 30 minutes, man, 30 minutes could have seen him and I could have said some different things,

00:29:12.960 but I didn't get the chance.

00:29:15.080 Yeah, man, that is unreal.

00:29:16.360 I didn't know that.

00:29:17.600 I didn't know that that had happened or at least that I knew your dad had passed away,

00:29:21.520 but I didn't know that story.

00:29:23.260 Yeah.

00:29:23.620 I don't talk about it a whole lot because it's painful, dude.

00:29:25.880 It's, it's, it's, I didn't, I didn't conduct myself well in that moment.

00:29:30.280 And, you know, that's something I'll live with forever.

00:29:32.100 And I believe my faith tells me that at some point we'll be able to embrace

00:29:35.400 his father and son and have a couple of conversations that you, we should have had

00:29:39.160 40 years ago, but I don't know.

00:29:42.780 I mean, that's my faith.

00:29:44.100 I don't know if that's true.

00:29:45.140 I hope that's the case and hopefully we can set the record straight and, but I can't do

00:29:51.400 it now.

00:29:52.280 So what other, what other types of lessons have you learned Larry in your, in your, well,

00:30:00.000 actually let me back up.

00:30:00.840 Yeah.

00:30:01.600 I want to go back to something that you just briefly mentioned and you and I had talked

00:30:05.660 about this.

00:30:06.280 You made a pivot, you made a shift in the name of, of your movement.

00:30:09.960 It was the good dad project to the dad edge.

00:30:12.860 I'm actually really curious about that shift because I like the dad edge better.

00:30:17.420 I think it's, I think it's more representative of what you do.

00:30:20.480 I think it's a little bit more catchy if we're looking at it from a marketing standpoint,

00:30:24.160 I've never changed much of the marketing strategy with, with what we do, but I'm curious about

00:30:29.580 your perspective on making that change.

00:30:33.120 Yeah.

00:30:33.320 So I think for me, that's a good question and it's kind of a funny story.

00:30:38.080 So when I, when I started good dad project back in 2012 and this was after, yeah, I always,

00:30:45.400 I always, because of how I was raised, you know, with my mom was married three times and

00:30:50.520 she dated a lot of guys in between and every guy was just the same guy, just different face,

00:30:54.980 different name.

00:30:55.400 Like just a man who is a partier, a drinker and abuser physically, mentally, emotionally.

00:31:00.600 Like I was hit a lot growing up, uh, beaten a lot growing up.

00:31:04.300 And, you know, I, when I grew up and when I became a father, I was like, okay, there's

00:31:10.620 one thing that's not, I'm going to do, there's, there's a lot of things that are not going

00:31:13.320 to happen on my watch, but one of them is I'm not going to strike my children out of

00:31:17.560 anger.

00:31:17.820 I'm just not going to do it.

00:31:18.600 Now I know that there's some people are like, no, you should spank.

00:31:20.700 And there's other people like, oh, it's child abuse.

00:31:22.160 And there's everything in between.

00:31:23.100 I'm not here to fight that fight.

00:31:24.640 I just didn't want to do it.

00:31:25.820 That's all.

00:31:27.060 And in a fit of rage, when my son, who's now 15, who's now actually bigger and stronger

00:31:33.580 than me now, I would never spank him now.

00:31:35.400 He freaking put me through the wall.

00:31:37.160 Like, yeah, you, you've got a power lifter and I've got a, I've got a, a center, you know,

00:31:41.780 on the football team.

00:31:42.600 And, um, and, but anyway, I spanked him out of a reactive bout of anger and that was it.

00:31:52.520 I mean, there were a lot of things that led up to that moment.

00:31:56.640 My, my marriage wasn't the greatest, you know, my patients with my boys, my oldest was six

00:32:01.000 at the time he was four.

00:32:02.060 And I was just, to be quite honest, I was just floundering, but I, I desperately, desperately

00:32:07.400 wanted to be a better father and I wanted to be a better husband.

00:32:10.980 I just had no clue what that was.

00:32:12.920 So on the night that I spanked him, went into my office and I started a Facebook page and

00:32:18.000 I never did it for a following or anything like that.

00:32:20.740 And literally the very first words that like, just came to my mind as I'm looking at that

00:32:25.960 keyboard.

00:32:26.440 So the thing popped up, like, what do you want to name your page?

00:32:28.620 And I just typed in the good dad project.

00:32:30.580 And that name was actually just for me.

00:32:34.340 That was it because I was the project, me, I was the project.

00:32:38.740 And as I developed that and even started a blog around it, the, you know, good dad project,

00:32:45.080 I, there was a part of me that really never felt that that's who I was.

00:32:52.220 And even as we started the podcast, you know, cause the podcast was named that for the first

00:32:56.580 three years and it just never felt right to me.

00:33:00.580 And I think because it didn't feel right to me is because if, if I'm a project and I'm

00:33:07.300 just speaking from a man's perspective and in the name, even though I'm a project, cause

00:33:11.180 I'm still a project, I'm still constantly learning.

00:33:13.220 You're still constantly learning.

00:33:14.460 We're, we're constantly upgrading the software of our minds, being better, being growing,

00:33:18.620 stronger, all these different things.

00:33:20.680 But I never liked the term project.

00:33:23.400 And quite frankly, I didn't like the term good.

00:33:26.200 Yeah.

00:33:26.640 I don't like that.

00:33:27.140 That's the word that gets me.

00:33:28.640 Yeah.

00:33:29.420 Yeah.

00:33:29.820 It's like, I want to be great.

00:33:31.020 Right.

00:33:31.280 So the, the, the, the name that always one word always stuck with me and that's edge and

00:33:37.560 edge being like, Hey, I I'm, I'm a step ahead of things, or I know what to do in this situation

00:33:43.760 because I've learned certain things, or at least I, I know more about call it marriage

00:33:50.780 or communication or leading my kids or whatever else.

00:33:53.740 It's just, you have that edge because you've learned those lessons and how to do it more

00:33:57.040 effectively.

00:33:58.040 And the dad edge, when that first came to my mind, when I first wrote that book, the

00:34:01.600 dad edge, I was like, this name feels completely who I am.

00:34:07.460 And I think from, and again, you know, you talk about from a business perspective, organization

00:34:11.400 perspective, I don't think dads want to be a good project at all.

00:34:15.340 I think they want to have an edge.

00:34:17.700 They want to be growing.

00:34:18.700 They want to stay sharp.

00:34:19.580 And I think that's what that name really, that's what that name is all about.

00:34:24.280 Man, I'm just going to put a pause on the conversation very quickly.

00:34:26.720 Obviously we're talking a lot about brotherhood and, and building this men's movement.

00:34:30.220 And I want to let you know that we're finally in the opening week for the iron council.

00:34:34.400 We've been talking about building a movement of men that matters.

00:34:37.540 And this week we do open our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council, and it's going to be open

00:34:42.860 for the last opening of the year.

00:34:44.980 So if you're looking for other high caliber, highly motivated men to band with, then look

00:34:49.940 no further than the iron council, because when you do, you're going to unlock immediate

00:34:55.100 access to all of the tools, all of the resources, all the instruction, guidance, camaraderie,

00:35:00.520 and most importantly, the brotherhood, you need to make 2024 your best year ever.

00:35:05.400 And with over eight years of video content and resources and libraries and past assignments

00:35:13.000 and monthly topics, you're never going to run out of information to consume specifically

00:35:18.220 as it relates to the goals that you want to accomplish as we roll into 2024.

00:35:21.360 Now guys, we're only open for a very limited amount of time, and we want you to get up

00:35:27.120 to speed as quickly as possible.

00:35:28.540 So we don't get behind on day one of 2024.

00:35:32.400 So go watch a short video, learn more about what we're about and ultimately get registered

00:35:37.760 at order of man.com slash iron council.

00:35:40.840 That's order of man.com slash iron council.

00:35:44.160 Do that right after this conversation for now, I'll get back to it with Larry.

00:35:47.900 I like it.

00:35:50.620 I look, I, I don't think men, the project doesn't bother me.

00:35:54.560 Like I'm a working in process.

00:35:56.160 Like I, it doesn't, but it's good.

00:35:58.120 I don't, I don't know any men who have, who have said, you know, I'd really like to be

00:36:01.500 good.

00:36:02.200 Yeah.

00:36:02.800 And it's not even the difference between good and great for me.

00:36:05.660 It's good to me is almost synonymous with follow the rules.

00:36:10.820 You know, do, do, do your, do your job, toe the line, color within the line, sit down,

00:36:19.020 be a good little boy.

00:36:20.760 I'll pat you on the head or give you a little dog biscuit so that you feel good about your

00:36:24.280 performance.

00:36:25.180 I'm not interested.

00:36:26.040 I don't know any men who are interested in that.

00:36:29.280 Have you, have you ever asked your wife like, Oh man, or even thought like, I really

00:36:33.760 wish she thought I was a good person.

00:36:35.700 Never, never.

00:36:37.000 No, like we want to be strong.

00:36:39.040 We want to be bold.

00:36:40.060 We want to be assertive.

00:36:41.080 We want to be capable.

00:36:42.100 We want to have an edge, like the competent.

00:36:45.560 These are the things that we want.

00:36:46.980 So I think that name is obviously it just, it's going to resonate more deeply with men

00:36:51.180 than being good.

00:36:52.840 And that's what society tells us as men is, is, Hey, you know, be good, be good.

00:36:58.380 Be kind, be, be nice.

00:37:00.080 Not even kind.

00:37:01.220 Nice.

00:37:01.680 Be nice.

00:37:02.820 Be tolerant.

00:37:03.840 You know, uh, compromise.

00:37:07.520 I don't want any of that.

00:37:08.900 There's certain things I'm willing to compromise on and there's certain things I'm not.

00:37:12.340 And, and I'm going to tell you what those things are and I'm going to be bold and I'm

00:37:16.120 going to be assertive and I'm going to call other men to do that.

00:37:18.080 But that has nothing to do with being good.

00:37:19.860 It has to do with being confident, capable, and courageous.

00:37:22.400 I would say.

00:37:23.520 I would, I would completely agree with all of that.

00:37:26.180 I, uh, I have a question for you though.

00:37:27.640 I've been, I've been wanting to ask you this.

00:37:28.980 So you and I both have four kids.

00:37:31.480 Yeah.

00:37:31.800 Right now you and I knew each other before the four kid thing, but I'm so curious for

00:37:37.640 you as you've evolved.

00:37:38.560 Cause I know for me, raising four boys, you have three, one girl, but I'm so curious as

00:37:44.340 you look back on all the lessons you've learned from podcast guests, all the books you've read.

00:37:48.580 Cause I know you're, you're, you're a huge reader.

00:37:52.100 You read tons of books as do I, but what have you learned about raising young men?

00:37:59.080 That's most important.

00:37:59.920 And then what have you learned about raising a strong, confident young woman?

00:38:03.940 I think for, for the boys, one thing that I'm constantly learning is that they're not me.

00:38:09.880 Yeah.

00:38:10.700 That's one thing I wrestled with for a long time.

00:38:13.020 I wanted my oldest son to be me, to do it my way, to think like, and he does, he is,

00:38:18.820 he is a mini me for sure, but it's not specifically over the past several years,

00:38:24.140 not because I forced him to be that way or encouraged or fostered that it's just who he

00:38:27.980 is.

00:38:28.460 My second son is completely different, really different personality into different things.

00:38:32.760 I love hunting.

00:38:33.880 As an example, I asked him, I said, Hey, do you want to go on this hunt with me in the

00:38:37.660 spring?

00:38:37.940 He's like, no, dad, I don't.

00:38:39.020 I said, why?

00:38:39.980 It was so fun last year.

00:38:40.960 He's like, it was fun.

00:38:41.900 And I said, well, why don't you want to go back?

00:38:43.460 And he said, well, dad was so boring to just sit there and wait.

00:38:48.000 And I'm like, well, yeah, we waited, but then you killed two pigs.

00:38:51.240 You made great shots on two pigs.

00:38:53.300 You killed two pigs.

00:38:54.420 And he's like, well, yeah, that was fun.

00:38:56.120 But we had to sit there and wait for it to happen.

00:38:58.340 And then we got up early, like way early before the sun was even up.

00:39:02.360 And then it was cold.

00:39:03.880 It was like so cold out there.

00:39:05.580 I'm like, well, he's got a good point.

00:39:07.180 All three of those, you're going to be bored.

00:39:08.820 You're going to be tired.

00:39:09.560 You're going to be cold if you go hunting.

00:39:11.340 And he's into completely different things.

00:39:13.300 And I used to think, oh, what's wrong with him?

00:39:15.200 Why isn't he doing these things that a man should do or that I'm into sports and all

00:39:19.680 this kind of stuff?

00:39:20.280 And he does love sports.

00:39:21.860 But the more that I acknowledge who they are and what they're into and then foster their

00:39:28.000 own desires and ambitions, the better relationship that we have.

00:39:31.460 We're able to talk about things openly, even sensitive issues like drugs and pornography

00:39:37.580 and girls and sex and all the things that we have to talk to our sons about, or at least

00:39:43.140 we ought to.

00:39:44.240 We can have just because I'm not so worried about them following in my footsteps as opposed

00:39:49.040 to making them capable of going out on their own and making their own path.

00:39:53.060 But with a daughter, it's very much the same way.

00:39:55.980 It's not a whole lot different for me.

00:39:59.040 I want her to be strong and bold and capable.

00:40:01.680 I really want her to be able to stand on her own two feet.

00:40:04.640 I think that's more important in a lot of ways for a girl than it is for a boy, because

00:40:08.980 it's so expected in society that a man be strong and capable and assertive.

00:40:14.620 That's just it's acceptable.

00:40:16.440 It's the way it should be.

00:40:17.940 Right.

00:40:18.520 But with a female, I think women can get railroaded and taken advantage of very, very quickly.

00:40:24.920 So I want her to be somebody who is strong and bold and assertive and capable, who can

00:40:29.800 say no, who can say yes to the right things and no to the wrong things and hold her own.

00:40:34.640 But that's going to require her seeing what a man looks like in action.

00:40:39.560 You know, if I was a bum and I continue to drink and I continue to, you know, not show

00:40:44.320 up properly and be present for them, she would see that and say, oh, that's what a man is.

00:40:48.960 That's what a guy does.

00:40:49.840 Yep.

00:40:50.440 Guess who she would go look for?

00:40:52.400 Me, a younger version of me.

00:40:54.980 And I'm not really interested in that.

00:40:57.200 I want to show her.

00:40:58.020 So I take her on dates and I open the door for her and I treat her the way that she needs

00:41:01.040 to be treated.

00:41:01.580 I don't treat her like a little princess, don't get me wrong, but I treat her like a

00:41:05.660 young lady.

00:41:07.220 Responsibility, obligations, duty, respect towards others, being capable of taking care

00:41:13.940 of yourself, but also being ladylike.

00:41:17.120 There's other women in her life, her mom, her grandmothers, who are very, very much women

00:41:22.500 that have that great, strong feminine presence that I think she's, I'll go ahead and say entitled

00:41:27.600 to as a young woman, she, that should be a right, that she's a right to access to other

00:41:32.860 women who act feminine.

00:41:34.300 You know, I hope that answers the question, but those are some of the things that I've

00:41:37.020 been dealing with.

00:41:38.080 No, that definitely answers the question.

00:41:40.060 I think also it's, it's something that I think a lot of guys that I've, I've seen get tripped

00:41:44.140 up on as well, which is we want, you know, our kids to emulate like the, the strengths

00:41:49.780 that we have, cause we know, you know, we know firsthand what, what, what they're like,

00:41:54.080 you know, to, to use them.

00:41:56.100 I've learned that lesson as well.

00:41:58.160 You know, it's, or I've, I've also gotten caught up in the trap of, well, I want to push

00:42:04.400 my kids to their potential.

00:42:06.380 Right.

00:42:07.220 And, but in a way also pushing them to things that aren't necessarily like who they are as

00:42:13.940 an individual.

00:42:14.400 I'll give you an example.

00:42:15.440 So Mason, my 15 year old, he's, he's the, he's the football player.

00:42:20.680 You know, he's, he's got all, I look at him, like he's got a ton of potential.

00:42:25.160 I look at all the boys, like they have a ton of potential, but I'll, I'll zero him on him

00:42:28.980 in particular.

00:42:30.040 So he wrote a book called never give up no matter what this was years ago.

00:42:34.080 And it was all about his, yeah.

00:42:35.660 All about his story of not giving up on, on football and, um, and at events, you know,

00:42:41.380 I've had him speak.

00:42:42.520 And then he's also actually been hired to speak at other events.

00:42:46.820 And I see how impactful that story is and how much potential that story has to inspire

00:42:51.640 others.

00:42:52.900 And it was this year at the summit.

00:42:54.780 I was like, Hey, I was like, you know, if you want to speak, I'd really, you know, we'll

00:42:58.780 make some room for you on, on how, from a, from your point of view, from a, from a young

00:43:02.600 man's point of view, why young men shouldn't give up and maybe giving these guys advice

00:43:07.180 on how they can inspire their kids and not give up on things.

00:43:09.720 And he looked at me, he looked at me dead in the eye and he goes, I gotta be honest,

00:43:13.600 dad.

00:43:13.740 I haven't, I have no interest in that.

00:43:15.580 I was like, what?

00:43:16.800 I was like, why?

00:43:17.900 He's like, he goes, I don't, I don't like the public speak.

00:43:23.020 He's like, I, I, I like to do a lot of things that don't make me comfortable.

00:43:26.940 Like he, he actually loves to hunt.

00:43:28.540 We actually, we've, we've hunted together.

00:43:30.080 So he doesn't mind the cold.

00:43:31.200 He doesn't mind all that stuff.

00:43:32.540 That's the kind of stuff he doesn't mind being uncomfortable.

00:43:34.260 He is a savage on the football, on the football field.

00:43:37.820 So he'll be uncomfortable all day long, work until he throws up and all that stuff.

00:43:42.480 But you put him on a stage with a spotlight.

00:43:44.220 He's like, I don't want any part of that.

00:43:46.160 I just don't, that's not who I am.

00:43:47.760 That's not who I want to be.

00:43:49.040 I just don't want to do that.

00:43:51.220 And, but there's that part of me as his dad.

00:43:53.600 I'm like, but dude, your message is so strong.

00:43:55.760 You have so much potential with this, with this message.

00:43:58.120 You have no, any, no idea how many people you could inspire.

00:44:00.860 And he's like, yeah, I really just, I don't want to do that.

00:44:05.740 And it was actually my wife that actually kind of pulled me aside one night.

00:44:10.460 And she's like, you might want to stop asking him to speak.

00:44:13.260 He just, he, Larry, like he really just doesn't want to do it.

00:44:16.180 I know you think that he should be doing it or that you want him to do it because of the

00:44:20.540 lessons learned, but you, at some point in time, you have to realize that's just not

00:44:25.340 the person he is.

00:44:26.040 And she goes, that's not the person I am.

00:44:27.300 I have zero interest in getting up in front of people.

00:44:29.040 So that was a really big lesson for me too, is that what you just said is every single

00:44:35.040 kid is different, right?

00:44:36.740 And they're not going to be like me and they're not going to be like their brothers.

00:44:40.000 Like Mason's older brother will do that stuff all day long, but he won't, but it's really

00:44:43.940 understanding individually who these young people are.

00:44:47.180 Right.

00:44:47.940 Yeah.

00:44:48.340 I think, I mean, my oldest has a very similar story.

00:44:52.000 He was, he was doing a podcast with me called man in the making and we enjoyed it and we had

00:44:56.160 a good time and we were talking and doing our thing and he's like, you know, dad, I'm

00:44:59.480 not interested.

00:45:00.020 I'm like, why?

00:45:00.560 We need to keep doing it.

00:45:01.600 Same thing.

00:45:02.500 Yeah.

00:45:03.040 No, I'm not interested.

00:45:04.680 And I pushed, I was like, no, let's keep doing it.

00:45:07.300 Let's keep doing it.

00:45:07.760 Let's keep doing it.

00:45:08.180 Guess what it did?

00:45:08.880 Drove us further apart.

00:45:10.080 It didn't serve anything.

00:45:11.180 Didn't serve guys who were listening.

00:45:12.580 Cause he wasn't doing it.

00:45:13.580 Didn't serve our relationship.

00:45:14.680 Cause he wasn't interested.

00:45:16.080 And it's like, dad's just trying to get me to do this thing.

00:45:18.780 And then he began to believe that my motives were not pure motives.

00:45:22.340 You know, that it was like a manipulation tactic or strategy.

00:45:24.720 And it was, he was right.

00:45:25.700 And it wasn't until I let go of it.

00:45:28.080 And I was like, you know, maybe, yeah, fine.

00:45:30.600 What else can we do?

00:45:31.640 Well, we just got off a great four day hunt together.

00:45:34.000 We spent hours and hours and hours in the stand talking about the same things we would

00:45:38.440 have talked about on the podcast, but we didn't do it in front of an audience.

00:45:41.700 And we did it over something that he enjoys being present in fine.

00:45:46.660 If that's what it takes, I'm all in on that.

00:45:50.240 Yeah.

00:45:50.680 I mean, you're still doing the same thing.

00:45:51.880 It's just not the microphone, right?

00:45:53.260 It's, it's in the deer stand.

00:45:55.380 Exactly.

00:45:56.180 And, and for some, it might be interesting to be in front of a microphone and for others,

00:46:00.180 it might not.

00:46:00.920 And so it really doesn't matter as long.

00:46:05.340 I learned this lesson actually pretty early on, but I didn't really adopt it fully until

00:46:11.640 relatively recently.

00:46:12.980 But again, my oldest, uh, when he was younger, he was probably, I don't know, six, seven,

00:46:18.800 eight years old.

00:46:19.420 He was, and he's 15.

00:46:20.480 Now he would say, dad, I want to be a cowboy animal doctor.

00:46:25.420 That's what he wanted to be a cowboy animal doctor.

00:46:27.780 All right.

00:46:28.180 That's awesome.

00:46:29.340 Let's do it.

00:46:30.440 What does that even mean?

00:46:31.320 Let's do it.

00:46:32.600 And there was a couple of veterinarian clinics here in town and, and I called him up.

00:46:36.780 I said, Hey, my son is eight.

00:46:38.900 You know, he's really interested in what you do.

00:46:40.660 Is it possible to come watch you for an hour?

00:46:44.700 And, and they're like, yeah, sure.

00:46:46.980 Come on over.

00:46:47.740 And we watched a cat have a tooth extraction, which was hilarious.

00:46:50.420 Cause they had to feed a pill first.

00:46:52.100 And then we watched a dog get neutered and, you know, fed, fed, fed the chameleon some

00:46:58.620 food and like just did the whole gambit.

00:47:00.680 And my son was into it.

00:47:01.960 He loved it.

00:47:03.460 That's our job as fathers.

00:47:04.800 It's not to tell you what you should do.

00:47:06.280 It's to foster what you think you ought to do.

00:47:08.400 So if he wants to be a cowboy animal doctor, whatever that is, it's not my job to say yes

00:47:12.840 or no.

00:47:13.140 It's my job to say, great, let's figure out a path and let me help you blaze this, this,

00:47:17.680 this trail and make it a reality.

00:47:20.260 And now if I ask him now, he doesn't say that, but that was what he was into then.

00:47:24.620 And so it's my job as a father to foster that and whatever he's into now, as long as it's,

00:47:29.540 you know, reasonable or moral, I would say, then I'm all about it.

00:47:33.520 Let's get after it.

00:47:35.400 I love that example, man, because it's, um, I mean, how many parents out there, they just

00:47:41.460 want to have a kid that, or a son or daughter really doesn't matter that basically emulated

00:47:47.600 their upbringing and basically turning them into the person that they want them to be

00:47:52.740 versus the person that you're trying to foster them to be the best person they can be, you

00:47:57.880 know?

00:47:58.060 And I think that's a great example of really exposing a kid who's, who's genuinely interested

00:48:03.220 in something and then deciding from that, you know, like you said, you support it, give

00:48:08.480 them the exposure to it.

00:48:09.680 They like it.

00:48:10.540 Great.

00:48:11.000 If they don't can move on.

00:48:12.920 I do have a question for you that's related to that.

00:48:16.460 And I'm, I'm, I'm saying this question with a smile because it just came to my mind, but

00:48:20.840 you and I have both worried about what this is now.

00:48:23.180 No, no, this is a good one.

00:48:24.060 It's a good one.

00:48:24.700 I think it'd be a good message for, for guys out there who are, who parents who are in the

00:48:29.420 stands and, and, and parents who coach you and I have extensive experience in coaching

00:48:35.220 our kids teams.

00:48:36.880 And we've both had to, we've both been on the spectator side as well as the coaching

00:48:40.980 side.

00:48:41.820 And I would love to hear what you have to say about the things that you have found effective

00:48:47.420 about being a coach, the things that you have found ineffective with seeing other parents

00:48:52.820 with really poor behavior in the stands.

00:48:55.140 I've got my own two sets on this, but I would, I'd love to hear your experience.

00:48:59.420 Well, one thing I started doing, I send out a text.

00:49:03.320 I coached this year.

00:49:04.260 I coached one of my son's baseball teams and I'm in the midst of coaching another son's

00:49:09.100 basketball team right now.

00:49:10.260 I only do one.

00:49:11.180 I only coach one team per season.

00:49:13.980 So I won't coach two baseball teams or two basketball teams, but I'll shift.

00:49:17.820 So I'm coaching another son's basketball team right now.

00:49:20.720 And he's seven and I can coach his team.

00:49:22.760 If much older than about 10, they out, they outgrow my coaching ability when it comes to basketball,

00:49:28.860 football, baseball, sure, but basketball.

00:49:31.480 And one thing I started doing, this is really helpful is I sent out a text before the season

00:49:36.880 and it's, it's a text.

00:49:38.640 It's a group text to all the parents.

00:49:39.800 And I say, Hey, I'm, I'm your son's coach.

00:49:42.340 Here's what time practices.

00:49:43.640 Here's where it is.

00:49:44.600 Here's a link to the schedule.

00:49:46.280 Don't text me and ask me when the game is.

00:49:48.640 Don't text me and ask me when this, when practices, this is it.

00:49:52.340 It's Wednesday nights at seven.

00:49:53.800 Here's the link to the game.

00:49:54.960 You're fully capable.

00:49:56.400 I want your son to be there early, 10 minutes early warming up because we start exactly

00:50:02.500 at seven o'clock, which means they need to be warm and ready to go.

00:50:05.120 These are seven-year-olds, but some people would say, Oh, that's pretty intense.

00:50:08.660 No, it's not.

00:50:09.280 It's a night a week.

00:50:10.640 It's not intense.

00:50:11.980 They can handle it.

00:50:13.020 I promise if the parents allow them to handle it and we go for an hour and I tell the parents

00:50:17.300 we play hard and we play to win.

00:50:20.080 Like this is not fun time.

00:50:23.800 We play hard and we play to win.

00:50:25.560 And we're here to learn about life in the context of basketball.

00:50:30.520 If you have a problem with my coaching style, you can come to me directly.

00:50:33.540 If you make it public, then you are volunteering to be my assistant coach.

00:50:37.940 And I haven't had anybody take me up on that offer yet.

00:50:41.060 Yeah, I bet.

00:50:42.360 I have had people say, Hey, Ryan, what if you try this?

00:50:44.560 It has a good idea, but it's always constructive when it's private, when it's public.

00:50:48.060 It's usually, it's, it's criticism.

00:50:50.740 Yeah.

00:50:51.920 So that's been a big, that's been a big deal.

00:50:54.940 Just asking other men to get involved.

00:50:57.020 I can't believe how difficult it can be.

00:50:58.620 I have a great assistant coach in basketball.

00:51:00.320 His name is CJ.

00:51:01.300 I can't believe how difficult it is to find another man.

00:51:04.080 Who's like, come coach your kid.

00:51:05.540 And they'll come up with all sorts of excuses.

00:51:07.300 Like, well, you know, I'm busy and I don't know anything about basketball.

00:51:10.760 I don't know anything about basketball either.

00:51:12.160 There's seven.

00:51:13.060 I promise you know more about it than the seven-year-olds.

00:51:16.360 It's going to be okay.

00:51:17.300 Like, let's go play from a, from a player perspective.

00:51:21.220 I think it's just letting them know that you're there for them.

00:51:26.260 You know, I, I remember one year, this was probably four years ago.

00:51:29.100 I had a young, a young player.

00:51:30.640 He was probably, I don't know, eight, eight or so.

00:51:34.840 And he was up to bat and he got hit by a pitch and he really took it hard.

00:51:38.720 Like it hurt.

00:51:39.980 No doubt.

00:51:41.200 And I'm over there telling him like, Hey, don't rub it.

00:51:43.260 Like tough it out, you know, cause that's what we do.

00:51:45.900 And people don't, they don't get it.

00:51:47.540 They don't get it.

00:51:48.100 And they never will.

00:51:49.180 Oh, that's, I can't believe you'd say that.

00:51:51.100 Well, you don't get it.

00:51:52.180 We're raising men here.

00:51:53.720 So I tell him, don't rub it.

00:51:54.880 Don't rub it.

00:51:55.300 And he didn't rub it.

00:51:56.000 And, uh, we eventually get out and he's, he was pitching the next inning.

00:52:02.220 So he starts to pitch and the kid hit a wide drive at him and it hit him right in the ribs.

00:52:09.080 Same kid who got hit?

00:52:10.460 Same kid.

00:52:11.620 Oh, next, you know, when he starts pitching, he gets hit in the ribs and I call a timeout.

00:52:17.380 And, you know, the umpires are making me check on him and stuff.

00:52:19.540 And of course I am.

00:52:20.400 And I go up and I'm like, but are you okay?

00:52:22.460 And he's like, yeah, I'm okay.

00:52:24.280 I'm like, that looked like it hurt.

00:52:26.120 He's like, it did hurt coach.

00:52:27.520 I'm like, yeah.

00:52:29.760 I said, but you handled that.

00:52:31.560 Awesome.

00:52:32.060 Cause I think if I remember correctly, he even made the play after like he grabbed the ball

00:52:36.160 and made the play and then, you know, kind of buckled.

00:52:39.440 And I told him, I said, I'm just really proud of you for the way that you handled it.

00:52:43.100 And I said, you know, I want you to strike out this next batter, but I'm not, I'm not

00:52:48.080 going to pull you out of the game.

00:52:49.260 I'm not going to baby you.

00:52:50.360 Like you're, you're doing good.

00:52:52.360 This is a rough sport at times.

00:52:53.700 And here's how it goes.

00:52:54.560 But I want you to strike out this next batter.

00:52:56.480 And he got up there and he's like kind of limping and sure enough, he struck out the

00:53:01.640 next batter and I'll never, never forget the look on that kid's face.

00:53:07.760 This, this sense of like pride and accomplishment.

00:53:10.680 And he looked over at me just so proud.

00:53:13.920 And I just kind of gave him a thumbs up or a nod.

00:53:15.900 And I said, I knew you could do it, you know, and man, that's what sports is, right?

00:53:19.700 It's, it's to let them get banged up and beat up physically, mentally, emotionally, and

00:53:23.700 then help them develop the skillset required to overcome the hard obstacles that they're

00:53:28.720 going to deal with in life.

00:53:29.740 Because whether it's the football field or basketball court or baseball diamond, it's

00:53:33.700 just a metaphor.

00:53:34.680 That's all it is.

00:53:35.340 It's a metaphor for life.

00:53:36.720 And I had good coaches that, that raised me.

00:53:39.320 And I don't, I don't really care if you win the state championship.

00:53:42.360 I would like to, you know, if the, if there was a thing at seven years old, that's what

00:53:46.000 I want to win.

00:53:46.640 That's why we're here.

00:53:47.320 I want to win that.

00:53:48.680 But if we don't, but they showed up fully and they learned and they grew and they're

00:53:54.500 better than they were.

00:53:55.500 And they're better, not just basketball players, but young men than I did my job.

00:54:00.480 That's what I'm there for.

00:54:03.400 See, I love that, man.

00:54:04.400 That story too.

00:54:05.060 That kid's never going to forget that.

00:54:06.680 I hope not.

00:54:07.780 No, he always remembers it.

00:54:09.500 He will.

00:54:10.100 I mean, well, number one, you get knocked in the ribs like that, you know, two back-to-back

00:54:13.040 hits, you know, that you're going to remember that, but you're going to remember that

00:54:15.200 message that, you know, to stand in the fire and to still do your job, which he did, you

00:54:21.240 know, he, he proved him, he, he was able to prove a lot to himself in that moment.

00:54:25.460 Yeah.

00:54:25.840 Can I share another story about just one more quick story?

00:54:28.760 Yeah.

00:54:29.280 Because I think it's important.

00:54:30.240 We're talking about authenticity earlier.

00:54:32.960 I sound awesome when I share that story.

00:54:37.360 I'm like, Oh, everybody's like, I want him as my coach, but let me share another story.

00:54:40.620 We had a young man who was one of our pitchers and he's a great athlete, really good athlete.

00:54:45.200 And he was having a rough game.

00:54:46.480 He was pitching and he had a, he had a really rough game.

00:54:48.620 He just wasn't showing up the way that he, he, he could, and he was capable of showing

00:54:52.440 up.

00:54:52.760 And he went out as the last inning.

00:54:54.380 I think we were up.

00:54:55.140 And I said, Hey, I just need you to get three outs.

00:54:56.860 That's all I need.

00:54:57.760 It's all we need.

00:54:58.200 Three outs.

00:54:58.620 We're done.

00:54:59.040 This game's over.

00:54:59.600 We win, man.

00:55:01.320 He struggled.

00:55:02.260 He was walking guys, hitting guys.

00:55:04.820 And the other team got up.

00:55:06.740 And instead of being the first coach of that story that I shared with you, which, which I was

00:55:11.620 at the time, I was the other coach and I berated him and I made him feel like crap and I put

00:55:17.040 him down and I shamed him.

00:55:18.860 I'll, I'll remember that one forever.

00:55:21.240 Like, you know, eventually he got us out of the inning.

00:55:23.520 We lost the game.

00:55:24.440 That was my fault.

00:55:25.740 That was a hundred percent my fault.

00:55:27.220 Cause I didn't elevate him in that moment.

00:55:29.240 I pulled him down.

00:55:30.340 I put, I didn't pull him.

00:55:31.320 I pushed him down and I could have done so much better.

00:55:34.280 And I didn't like, I failed him.

00:55:36.560 And then I failed our team.

00:55:38.080 And I'll remember that one forever.

00:55:39.680 I mean, I look, I, again, about the pedestal thing, don't think just because somebody shares

00:55:43.500 a positive story with you, they've got this all figured out.

00:55:46.160 I've been on both sides of the equation.

00:55:48.140 I know which one feels right and which one's good.

00:55:49.960 And I know which one feels wrong and which one is horrible for the development of our

00:55:53.840 young men.

00:55:54.520 And that ladder was not a great example of how I could have showed up as a coach.

00:55:58.260 It's a really powerful story because just as people, I think learn from, well, any podcast

00:56:03.200 or any content, you know, Hey, I know what good looks like, but also maybe point out what

00:56:06.820 not so good looks like.

00:56:08.220 So I know not to fall in that same bear trap.

00:56:10.580 You know, a couple of stories that I have as well from just number one, I love, I love

00:56:14.960 coaching my kids sport.

00:56:17.020 It's funny.

00:56:17.680 Your seven-year-old Otto and Colton is, they're both playing basketball.

00:56:21.900 So I had signed up to, so I played a little bit of little league basketball, but I'm not

00:56:27.420 like a lot like you, like once they get to be nine or 10, like I'm not your basketball

00:56:31.020 coach.

00:56:31.400 Like I teach you how to dribble, teach you the rules and that strategy.

00:56:36.120 Yeah.

00:56:36.300 It's not my, that's not my jam.

00:56:37.760 That's not my sport that I grew up on, but I signed up, uh, to be the kid, my seven-year-old

00:56:43.400 basketball coach.

00:56:44.820 And then I injured my knee really bad and I was, I was on crutches, couldn't even drive

00:56:49.900 for a while.

00:56:51.140 So I had to, before the season started, I basically had to forfeit, you know, being a coach.

00:56:55.020 Cause I was like, man, if I can barely walk.

00:56:56.640 And I didn't at the time, I, I thought I was pretty much destined for surgery, but I didn't

00:57:00.660 know what the rehab was going to look like.

00:57:02.120 I didn't know how long I was going to be out for, how long I couldn't drive.

00:57:04.960 So I went ahead and I, I contacted the organization.

00:57:07.940 I'm like, Hey, I got to pull out of coaching.

00:57:09.980 I was like, if you desperately need somebody though, I'll figure it out.

00:57:13.840 But as of right now, like the health status of my knee and what, what I have to do, I

00:57:18.500 don't know what, what it's going to bring.

00:57:19.840 So like, I don't want to, I don't want the season to depend on me.

00:57:23.400 And we have 12 kids on our basketball.

00:57:26.280 I'm sorry.

00:57:26.540 11 kids on our basketball team.

00:57:28.240 Dang.

00:57:29.200 Not one dad stepped up and I showed up to the first, I showed up to the first practice

00:57:35.180 and this kid's mom.

00:57:37.340 And I coached this other kid's baseball team with Colton.

00:57:41.720 And I was like, and I looked at her, I was like, Bethany, what are you doing here?

00:57:44.160 She's like, I'm the coach.

00:57:44.920 I was like, Oh, I was like, you're the coach.

00:57:46.320 She was like, yeah, nobody else, nobody, nobody else would step up and do it.

00:57:51.160 So I was like, Holy shit.

00:57:52.040 So, um, I've been, I've been helping out, but she, you know, she's officially the coach,

00:57:56.120 but, um, that was just very surprising to me that not one dad out of these 11 kids would

00:58:03.340 step in and coach, which was really fascinating.

00:58:05.040 But, uh, for me, I'll share a couple of things that I've noticed, uh, just about my, my dad's

00:58:11.360 been in Missouri junior hockey.

00:58:12.620 He's been the president of Missouri junior hockey for, I think 20 years.

00:58:16.320 So, and he really knows a lot about sports psychology with kids, but there's one thing

00:58:20.240 that I did really, really poorly with my older kids.

00:58:23.000 And that is, I would coach them big time from this, from the stands.

00:58:27.740 Like I thought the louder I would bark of what they should do and not rely on that coach,

00:58:32.100 the better off they were going to be a man that was a miss because the coaches there,

00:58:36.340 you know, all I'm doing is confusing them.

00:58:38.520 Right.

00:58:38.920 And all they're doing is I'm just creating more and more pressure and probably a bad experience

00:58:43.520 for them.

00:58:44.340 I've seen guys and I get it.

00:58:45.800 Cause I used to be there too, but I had to learn the hard way.

00:58:48.480 That's not the way you do it if you're not the coach, but I've seen guys, especially like

00:58:52.080 my nine-year-old who's really into flag football right now.

00:58:55.320 And Ryan, my son just got done with his quote unquote season.

00:58:59.980 It's not even a season.

00:59:00.720 It's a learn to play flag football league.

00:59:03.000 They're not even, they're not even playing games.

00:59:05.320 They're out there learning the basics.

00:59:07.000 They're learning the positions.

00:59:08.360 They're learning how to catch a ball.

00:59:09.720 They're learning how to snap.

00:59:10.700 I mean, they are learning like the bear, bear bait.

00:59:12.680 They're not even games.

00:59:13.360 They're like scrimmages and that kind of thing.

00:59:15.560 And there's one guy that, and it's in an indoor soccer field.

00:59:19.440 That's where the practices and scrimmages are.

00:59:21.140 This guy will like literally hang halfway into that, like little tiny doorway that the kids

00:59:27.240 move in and out of.

00:59:27.960 Cause everything's enclosed.

00:59:29.100 Everything else is surrounded by glass.

00:59:30.580 This guy is screaming orders at his kid of how to catch the ball, how to run, how to do this.

00:59:38.020 It's so distracting.

00:59:38.960 And his kid is never, unfortunately, he just doesn't execute very well, but I'm sure a lot

00:59:44.300 of it has to do with the fact that he feels so much freaking pressure from the coaches yelling

00:59:47.960 at him.

00:59:48.460 Yeah.

00:59:48.720 And his dad's yelling at him.

00:59:50.140 We're like, holy crap, dude, do you have any idea?

00:59:51.960 Like let the coaches do their job.

00:59:54.560 But I used to be that guy too.

00:59:55.880 So I'm not, I'm not proud of it.

00:59:57.040 No, I would never hang over the thing, but I would, I'd yell things at them, but here's,

01:00:02.000 here's kind of a, here's a humbling story.

01:00:05.340 So when my, I've always, I played baseball and I wrestled.

01:00:08.780 So like I was, that was what I would coach the kids.

01:00:12.500 Well, Mason, my football player, he's been playing football now since the third grade,

01:00:16.980 third grade.

01:00:17.540 He's like, dad, I want to play football.

01:00:18.920 And in my mind, I was like, sweet, man.

01:00:21.420 I was like, been coaching your wrestling team and coaching your baseball team for three years.

01:00:25.080 I would actually love to sit on the sidelines and be a spectator again.

01:00:28.680 And plus I know, I know nothing about football when it comes to coaching.

01:00:31.640 I know a little bit about the game, but not, not a whole lot.

01:00:34.080 Cause I didn't grow up playing it.

01:00:35.920 And I will never forget showing up to practice Mason's first football practice head coach

01:00:42.440 comes over to me and he's like, Hey man, he's like, uh, I could really use, you know,

01:00:47.180 some help.

01:00:47.720 Like I need a couple of extra hands, like, you know, coaching, you know, the team.

01:00:51.500 And I was like, I just kind of laughed at him.

01:00:52.760 I was like, uh, I'm not, I'm not your guy.

01:00:54.860 And he kind of like looked at me up and down.

01:00:56.140 He's like, well, you, you, you played right.

01:00:57.540 And I was like, I've never played organized football ever.

01:01:01.280 He's like, well, do you know anything about it?

01:01:02.660 I was like, well, I know I watch it on TV.

01:01:04.340 I was like, I can't tell you like what, what, what to do.

01:01:07.660 And, uh, I think he thought I was joking and I was like, but I'll help.

01:01:12.000 And, um, well, anyway, long story short, I became like the joke of the entire team.

01:01:16.800 Like these third graders would make fun of me because they're like, all right, guys, here's

01:01:19.920 what we're going to do.

01:01:20.520 We're going to learn this running play.

01:01:21.780 It's a jet sweep.

01:01:22.620 All you guys come over here at coach Hagner.

01:01:24.200 You have no idea what's going on.

01:01:25.200 So come over here.

01:01:25.800 I'm going to teach it to you too.

01:01:26.700 It became like a really joke.

01:01:28.440 So like, I'll never forget this really cool moment.

01:01:31.700 Me and Mason had took him to Jimmy John's after practice.

01:01:33.960 And we're like halfway through the season and Mason kind of, we're enjoying our sandwiches

01:01:37.920 and Mason kind of like leans in.

01:01:39.280 He's like, dad, he goes, can I ask you a question?

01:01:42.560 And I'm like, and anytime he asks that, I know he's been stewing on a question and he's

01:01:46.060 still like that to this day.

01:01:47.360 I'm like, yeah, man, what you got?

01:01:48.540 And he goes, you really don't say a lot when we're practice.

01:01:54.240 Like all the other coaches are talking, but you're just kind of like, you know, you hold

01:01:57.260 the pads and you're just, you're more listening.

01:01:58.940 I'm like, yeah.

01:02:00.000 And he goes in baseball, you weren't like that at all.

01:02:02.000 Wrestling.

01:02:02.360 You weren't like that at all.

01:02:03.180 You were the guy who was telling us what to do.

01:02:04.620 I was like, yeah.

01:02:05.480 And he goes, do you have any idea what you're doing out there?

01:02:10.140 And I just laughed and I go, I go, uh, I go, do you want to know a secret?

01:02:14.780 And he goes, yeah.

01:02:15.840 And I go, you really want to know?

01:02:17.620 He's like, yeah.

01:02:18.100 I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing out there.

01:02:21.620 And we both just started laughing our asses off.

01:02:23.920 He's like, well, why are you out there?

01:02:25.280 And I said, here's why I'm out there.

01:02:27.380 Two reasons.

01:02:28.340 Number one, I'm out there because of you.

01:02:31.440 I want to be with you.

01:02:32.540 I want to hang out with you.

01:02:33.620 I want to, I want to see you develop.

01:02:35.520 And there's no other better way to do that than to be on the field with you.

01:02:37.940 And I was like, and you know, I'm 40 something years old and you're never too old to learn

01:02:43.880 something new.

01:02:44.500 I'm learning something every single week in practice about football that I never knew before.

01:02:49.680 So I'm, I'm actually loving it.

01:02:51.540 Like I might be quiet, but I'm loving it.

01:02:53.900 And I think, you know, that lesson went a long way.

01:02:55.960 We still laugh about it to this day.

01:02:57.660 You know, that conversation at Jimmy John's, man.

01:03:01.140 That's so, I love that.

01:03:02.620 I love that.

01:03:03.220 You know, the thing, one other thing that stood out about your story is women should

01:03:08.060 never coach youth boys teams.

01:03:11.740 Never.

01:03:12.640 And, and please, before you get mad at me, not you, cause I know you, you know me well

01:03:18.040 enough for anybody listening gets mad.

01:03:19.820 Let me explain myself.

01:03:20.680 First of all, to any woman who coaches a youth sports football team for boys, because nobody

01:03:27.220 else will step up.

01:03:28.720 Thank you.

01:03:30.980 I mean, truly like you're doing it, not because you want to do it, or even you should do it,

01:03:35.420 but you're doing it because nobody else will.

01:03:37.720 Yep.

01:03:39.000 So thank you.

01:03:40.060 This is not a diss on you at all.

01:03:43.060 And men step up and look, I'm not here to judge.

01:03:47.120 I know you have jobs.

01:03:48.180 I know money could be tight for people.

01:03:50.280 I know this is a busy time of year.

01:03:52.280 I know you might feel like you don't know enough.

01:03:54.620 There's a lot of reasons.

01:03:55.500 And some I think are legitimate and others are not.

01:03:59.940 You have kids stop pawning them off on other people, raise them, help raise them.

01:04:06.540 And people say, it takes a village.

01:04:07.760 Sure.

01:04:08.260 I can buy into that.

01:04:09.400 Like I want my sons to be around and my daughter to be around good people, the village, but also

01:04:14.500 I'm the, I'm the, I should be the loudest voice.

01:04:17.440 I should have the most influence with my children.

01:04:20.660 That should be me.

01:04:21.580 And I can't do that with, to your point, if you're not on the field with your son, even

01:04:25.260 though you don't have any idea what you're doing.

01:04:27.580 So guys, step up, start coaching.

01:04:29.960 I see this in boy scouts, you know, cub scouts.

01:04:32.880 It's all run by women.

01:04:34.480 Why do you think our boys are struggling?

01:04:36.520 Women?

01:04:36.960 It's not because of you, by the way.

01:04:38.740 It's because men aren't stepping up into those roles.

01:04:43.560 You're doing the best you can.

01:04:45.420 You have a deficiency.

01:04:46.540 And I'm not saying that in a mean spirit.

01:04:48.460 But you don't know what it's like to be a boy and you don't know what it's like to be

01:04:52.260 a man.

01:04:52.680 And there's certain things that you'll never be able to usher a young man through.

01:04:56.900 It takes a man to do that.

01:04:58.380 I commend you for doing it in the absence of other men.

01:05:02.020 But guys, take this as a sign.

01:05:04.720 This is your sign to step up and start coaching these boys and helping them transition into

01:05:09.520 manhood the way they ought to be transitioned into manhood.

01:05:13.400 I agree.

01:05:14.280 And plus, I think, I mean, I don't know how long your dad was around, but the guys who

01:05:20.920 are in and out of my life, I'll never forget my stepdad, one year, just one year, was the

01:05:26.980 assistant coach on my baseball team.

01:05:29.860 And, you know, we didn't have the closest of relationships, especially at that age, because

01:05:34.040 he was pretty much on his way out.

01:05:35.560 But my dad traveled all the time.

01:05:38.640 And I remember, you know, him being a part of that team.

01:05:42.420 And I still remember it as a really cool experience, despite that there was tension

01:05:47.220 between us, but besides there was tension between he and my mom.

01:05:51.360 And I took a lot of pride in that.

01:05:52.980 Like, you know, you only get like, you got like, what, 15 players on the baseball team.

01:05:57.740 And if your dad is one of the two or three that are helping coach like that, your son will

01:06:02.700 take a lot of pride in that.

01:06:04.220 Kids will take a lot of pride in that.

01:06:05.560 I agree, man.

01:06:07.980 I think there's so many tremendous opportunities.

01:06:09.800 We get so wrapped up in ourselves and what we have going on.

01:06:12.800 And to a degree, we should.

01:06:14.120 We should worry about what our own goals are and desires and objectives and dreams and hopes

01:06:18.500 because our kids are going to see that.

01:06:20.580 And they're going to be able to model that healthy behavior as you work towards a goal

01:06:24.040 that you have.

01:06:25.400 But if you can't find a way to stop and turn around and assist, again, I'm trying not to

01:06:30.140 be judgmental here.

01:06:31.100 I might have two years ago.

01:06:32.540 Then I think you ought to find a way in life.

01:06:34.620 And maybe some of your goals ought to revolve around how you can coach one of your kids'

01:06:37.920 teams or how you can take a little more time off from work or how you can stop spending

01:06:42.360 so much money so you can finally get out of debt.

01:06:44.280 So you're not having to work two or three jobs at a time.

01:06:47.440 So you can actually spend time with your family and lead them the way they're asking you to

01:06:50.540 lead.

01:06:50.840 Yeah, that's a good point.

01:06:53.640 Larry, why don't you tell the guys where to connect with you?

01:06:56.300 And I'll share as well, because I know we're going to be sharing this on my platform and

01:07:00.500 your platform, because I thought this would be a really powerful way for us to share just

01:07:04.000 our friendship.

01:07:05.840 And some guys in my audience might not know of you and vice versa.

01:07:09.680 And actually, one of the cool things I meant to say this that I like about this is that

01:07:13.600 we're in very similar niches with what we do.

01:07:17.040 And I've never considered you competition, which so many people would, right?

01:07:23.000 And I'm not going to share and I'm not going to give them that I'm going to do this.

01:07:26.620 And it just becomes this ridiculous internet battle or something.

01:07:30.840 I don't quite know or understand what's going on there.

01:07:33.280 But I really appreciate your willingness to share your insights with me and what's working

01:07:38.920 for you.

01:07:39.440 I hope I've been able to share that with you.

01:07:41.840 And I think not only is it good for us, but I think it models how cooperation can help

01:07:47.340 build something bigger than us doing it on our own.

01:07:52.300 I have the exact same viewpoint of this that you do.

01:07:55.580 You're my friend first.

01:07:57.720 And I've never viewed Order Man and Dad Edge as competing.

01:08:02.200 In fact, I'll never forget this.

01:08:04.760 I think this story will really hit home.

01:08:06.520 And it's a quick one because I know we need to wrap up here.

01:08:08.860 But I'll never forget when John Roman back in 2016 decided to create Front Row Dads and

01:08:14.140 I went to his retreat and he pulled me aside and he's like, hey, man, I just want to talk

01:08:19.760 to you.

01:08:20.060 I'm like, and he looked absolutely paranoid.

01:08:22.300 He was scared to tell me whatever he was going to tell me.

01:08:25.660 I was like, yeah, what's up?

01:08:26.660 And he goes, man, this is just the launching pad for me.

01:08:30.440 I'm going to really go into this space like you have.

01:08:32.840 And I'm friends with you.

01:08:34.960 And I just kind of smiled as he's talking.

01:08:38.320 And he's like, I just don't want to create a riff.

01:08:40.800 I don't want to just be competition.

01:08:42.240 And then finally, he's like, why are you smiling?

01:08:43.900 And I was like, dude, I don't look at it that way at all.

01:08:45.960 I was like, I really don't, John.

01:08:47.180 I was like, we're friends.

01:08:48.020 I was like, listen, how many billions of dads are out there?

01:08:51.420 I don't know that number.

01:08:52.260 I was like, but I can't serve them all.

01:08:55.440 You can't serve them all.

01:08:57.080 Like what we actually need is 100,000 more Ryan Micklers, Larry Hagner's, John Vromans,

01:09:04.720 Brett McKay's.

01:09:06.100 If we had that kind of huge movement to make it to help men be better men, then the world

01:09:12.620 is going to be a better place.

01:09:14.240 And that's the main goal of this whole thing.

01:09:16.580 I don't care at the end of this life, whether guys did life with order of man or dad edge

01:09:21.760 or somewhere else.

01:09:23.300 If we had a touch point in somebody's journey where we did something positive and they can

01:09:29.000 look back on their life and like, man, it was those guys that really helped in this

01:09:33.540 season or that season or my marriage with my kids or whatever, then mission accomplished

01:09:38.580 period.

01:09:39.980 Right.

01:09:40.780 And that's, that's my view on it.

01:09:42.220 And I'm pretty sure that's your view on it as well.

01:09:44.220 But yeah, as far as, I mean, obviously finding me, the dad edge.com and the dad edge, everything

01:09:48.920 like on Instagram, everywhere, not hard to find whatsoever.

01:09:51.860 But that's where you can find me.

01:09:53.780 Awesome.

01:09:54.440 We'll link it up.

01:09:55.200 And for me, it's order, man.

01:09:56.680 Everything makes it easy.

01:09:58.820 I'm actually most active on Instagram, on my personal account, Ryan Mickler.

01:10:02.280 But other than that, it's order, man.

01:10:03.540 You can figure out everything we're doing.

01:10:05.300 Larry, I appreciate you, man.

01:10:06.660 I'm excited for what the next almost nine years has for us.

01:10:12.000 The highs and the lows and the goods and the bads.

01:10:14.380 And I'm sure we'll be there for each other as, as celebrating our wins and, you know,

01:10:19.200 propping each other up as needed in the, in the downs and in the trenches.

01:10:22.440 But I appreciate our friendship first and foremost, like you said, and the opportunity

01:10:26.120 to have this conversation.

01:10:27.160 I think it's going to serve a lot of the guys listening.

01:10:29.540 Same brother.

01:10:30.180 I love your heart.

01:10:31.620 I love where you're at.

01:10:32.640 And to be quite honest, man, it's just, sometimes I think about this, I'll wrap with this.

01:10:37.620 I think about, you know, I don't know how many years it's going to be to where we're doing

01:10:42.320 this work.

01:10:42.800 Let's just say it's another, at least another decade.

01:10:44.540 Right.

01:10:44.920 But I wonder what it's going to be like you and I meeting up, you know, having whatever.

01:10:51.400 Right.

01:10:51.800 And just discussing like, dude, look at what the past 20 years have been like.

01:10:57.100 And just smiling about it, you know, and enjoying it and just taking back and knowing that there

01:11:03.500 was a movement and, and people's lives were changed because of it.

01:11:06.680 I'm, I'm, I'm excited about that conversation with you.

01:11:09.360 Yes, sir.

01:11:10.040 We'll have it when that time comes.

01:11:11.600 All right, brother.

01:11:12.400 Thanks again.

01:11:12.940 I'd see you, man.

01:11:13.420 You bet.

01:11:15.600 Gentlemen, there you go.

01:11:16.320 My conversation with my good friend and the one and only Larry Hagner.

01:11:19.500 I hope that you enjoyed that one.

01:11:20.860 A lot more casual than I've done in the past, but Larry and I both talked and we wanted to

01:11:24.880 make it casual.

01:11:25.480 We wanted to fire some questions off back and forth to each other.

01:11:29.220 And I know every time I talk with Larry, I get something new out of it.

01:11:33.100 I took notes.

01:11:33.980 There might've been a delay in my response time, but that was because I was taking notes on

01:11:39.120 my computer with the things that he was saying.

01:11:41.540 So I hope you see that I'm learning and I'm open and receptive.

01:11:44.820 I know you are as well.

01:11:46.700 You wouldn't be here if that weren't the case.

01:11:48.160 So let me give you a couple of resources.

01:11:49.820 If you're looking for something even further, uh, number one, again, my show sponsors and

01:11:53.720 friends over at Montana knife company.com.

01:11:56.060 If you end up picking up anything over there, then, uh, use the code order of man at checkout

01:12:02.180 order of men at checkout.

01:12:03.440 Uh, also go check out Larry's tools and resources at the dad edge.

01:12:07.240 You can listen to his podcast and pick up a copy of his book, the dad edge.

01:12:10.440 And then last, but certainly not least is the iron council, which opens up on December 15th,

01:12:17.660 which you can check out at order of man.com slash iron council.

01:12:22.700 All right, guys, you got those three things.

01:12:24.560 Those are your marching orders, Montana knife company, the dad edge, the iron council.

01:12:29.020 Let's get after it.

01:12:30.400 We'll be back tomorrow for our ask me anything.

01:12:32.680 And hopefully I'm talking to more of you who are in the iron council, uh, and we'll be

01:12:36.700 back tomorrow until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to

01:12:41.620 be.

01:12:42.000 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:12:44.780 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:12:48.780 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - December 12, 2023

LARRY HAGNER ｜ How to Build a Movement of Men

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