Order of Man - LARRY HAGNER ｜ The "Dad Drift" and How to Beat It

00:00:00.000 Over time, it's likely that you have drifted off course like a boat without a navigator.

00:00:05.220 Guys, it's really easy to let the current of reality, overwhelm, and maybe even frustration take you off course.

00:00:12.660 My guest today, Larry Hagner, has been a father for over two decades and knows firsthand what the drift looks like as a dad and how to steer yourself back on course.

00:00:23.140 Today, we talk about staying awake and vigilant when it comes to leading your wife and kids.

00:00:27.500 The first, quote-unquote, domino to fall before things go horribly wrong.

00:00:32.220 How to get your wife back on course if she is the one who starts to drift.

00:00:37.180 In what ways do you become lethargic and monotonous and bland in your life and also what to do about it.

00:00:43.840 And most importantly, learning to build conversations of curiosity.

00:00:49.320 You're a man of action.

00:00:50.660 You live life to the fullest.

00:00:52.120 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:54.800 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:59.480 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:04.520 This is your life.

00:01:05.680 This is who you are.

00:01:07.080 This is who you will become.

00:01:08.780 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:13.760 Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:18.880 I am Ryan Michler.

00:01:20.180 I'm the host.

00:01:20.920 I'm the founder.

00:01:21.740 We've been going strong for over 10 years now, and we do not have any plans of letting up.

00:01:27.480 If you want to be a better father, husband, business owner, or community leader, you are in the right place.

00:01:32.900 We helped shape and navigate and build much of the men's modern movement, and we are, as I said earlier, going strong, and we are not stopping anytime soon.

00:01:44.900 To that end, we have incredible conversations.

00:01:47.300 I've had Jocko on the podcast, Ben Shapiro, David Goggins, Dave Ramsey, Tim Tebow, Terry Crews, Matthew McConaughey.

00:01:56.440 I've had an incredible.

00:01:57.820 George Foreman.

00:01:58.900 I mean, I'm hesitant to list all of the people that we've had on the podcast because it has been absolutely phenomenal and a testament to the idea that men want to reclaim and restore what it means to be a man.

00:02:11.960 Guys, I've got a great conversation lined up with you today, but I did want to mention, I just picked up something new.

00:02:18.600 I've had them for a while, but I got a new set, and that is my Montana Knife Company culinary set.

00:02:26.660 They just did a release last week, and if you missed it, you missed it.

00:02:31.600 They sold out.

00:02:33.080 So I'm rubbing that in your face a little bit, but also telling you that if you're looking for good knives, whether it's out in the field,

00:02:39.680 I've got some really cool hunts coming up this year, or in the kitchen, or an everyday carry, every man needs a knife.

00:02:46.940 I actually had a conversation the other day.

00:02:49.640 I went into a doctor's appointment, and I was getting some x-rays done on the DEXA scan, and she had me take all of my stuff out of my pockets,

00:03:02.300 and I pulled out my knife, and I set it on the counter, and she said, why do you need that knife?

00:03:06.640 And I said, I don't know.

00:03:07.580 I need it every day.

00:03:08.600 She's like, why do you run around stabbing people every day?

00:03:11.600 And she was kind of serious, and I said, no, I don't stab people every day.

00:03:17.260 In fact, I have never stabbed anyone ever, but I do need to sometimes cut something or open something or use it as a screwdriver

00:03:28.120 or use it to mark a piece of wood where I'm going to cut.

00:03:32.660 I have an infinite number of uses for my knife every day, and if you're a man and you're not carrying a knife around every day,

00:03:39.260 I don't know that you should carry the term of man.

00:03:44.040 I'm saying that a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but also a little bit seriously.

00:03:47.760 So, with all that said, go check out my friends over at Montana Knife Company.

00:03:53.660 Use the code ORDEROFMAN, all one word.

00:03:56.240 If you're in the kitchen, you're in the field, you're using it as your everyday carry.

00:04:00.700 Every man carries a knife.

00:04:02.040 You ought to as well.

00:04:03.200 Again, Montana Knife Company.

00:04:04.680 Use the code ORDEROFMAN.

00:04:06.640 Guys, let me introduce you to Larry.

00:04:08.780 He's been a good friend.

00:04:09.780 He's been an ally.

00:04:10.560 He's been an advocate, and I cannot speak highly of this guy enough.

00:04:15.080 He's the founder of The Dad Edge.

00:04:16.820 It's a platform that is equipped at aiming towards helping men become intentional and present and effective fathers.

00:04:26.480 He grew up without a reliable father figure, very much like I did, and he's turned those struggles into fuel

00:04:32.480 because he's committed himself to becoming the dad that he never had.

00:04:36.640 I think a lot of you attest to that.

00:04:39.360 He's a best-selling author.

00:04:41.260 He's got The Dad's Edge, The Spirit of Fatherhood, Daddy Will Always Love and Protect You,

00:04:46.340 and Screen Time, The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

00:04:48.800 But he's got a new book coming out, The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood,

00:04:52.120 How to Break Old Patterns and Create an Epic Legacy as a Father and Husband.

00:04:57.520 This is a real-life playbook.

00:04:59.040 He distills skills and mindsets and different shifts that you need to make

00:05:03.320 to distinguish what he calls legendary fathers from average ones,

00:05:07.800 and I think all of us want to be those legendary fathers,

00:05:10.200 and there's a lot of actionable tools to stop drifting through life,

00:05:15.420 to building deep connection with your children and daily habits,

00:05:20.320 and just lead with a quiet strength and vision for yourself and for the people you care about.

00:05:25.200 Larry, my good friend, what is up?

00:05:28.440 So good to have you on the podcast.

00:05:30.600 What's up, Ryan?

00:05:31.380 Good to be back, man.

00:05:32.500 Thank you for having me.

00:05:33.640 How's the knee that I...

00:05:35.960 I basically broke you, so are you recovering?

00:05:39.040 I just want to lead it off like that.

00:05:40.240 This is how we're starting.

00:05:40.640 Well, I worked legs for the first time in almost four months yesterday.

00:05:50.160 Did you really?

00:05:50.840 But I did it with no weight.

00:05:52.760 I can't do weight yet, so...

00:05:54.020 Just some air squats and some lunches or what?

00:05:56.900 So, I mean, this is...

00:05:58.420 I mean, I'm talking about like a normal sort of workout,

00:06:01.300 like that is separate from PT.

00:06:04.360 I mean, I've been doing tons of crap with my legs for physical therapy,

00:06:07.560 but I haven't actually done a workout until this past week.

00:06:11.620 So finally, like I'm able to work out again.

00:06:14.860 I can't really do a whole lot of weight just yet.

00:06:17.060 I can't fully bend it yet, but I'm about 110 degrees.

00:06:21.180 So like I was...

00:06:23.180 Normal people, like when they stretch out their quad,

00:06:25.900 they can get to about 140 degrees.

00:06:27.560 So basically, that means I'm about 30 degrees

00:06:29.240 from being like totally fully functional.

00:06:31.140 So, but yeah, man, nastiest worst injury I've ever had.

00:06:37.560 And my life was that, man, not fun.

00:06:40.940 I'm not kidding.

00:06:41.740 I felt it through the rope.

00:06:43.460 I'm not kidding.

00:06:44.300 I'm sure you probably did.

00:06:45.380 I felt it.

00:06:47.060 And I thought you had dropped the rope on the ground.

00:06:50.680 That's what it felt like.

00:06:51.380 Like you just dropped something on the ground.

00:06:53.160 I looked over, I'm like, oh no, that was something that popped.

00:06:56.720 And I literally felt that through the tug of war rope that we were on.

00:06:59.600 Dude, it was, so like I, I remember, I remember like us,

00:07:06.020 I remember pulling the rope and I remember,

00:07:09.380 I remember like how God awful, like slippery the mud was

00:07:13.700 because the weather wasn't great at the forge.

00:07:15.660 Yeah.

00:07:16.240 And I remember, I remember hitting the ground

00:07:19.760 and I thought my knee had slammed into a rock.

00:07:23.220 Like, because I literally, it literally felt like somebody hit it

00:07:26.420 with a sledgehammer and I was like, holy shit.

00:07:30.020 I was like, what did I hit?

00:07:32.080 And then I went to get up and I couldn't.

00:07:34.340 And I was like, oh shit, something's really wrong.

00:07:37.160 And I, I actually thought it was my ACL and it wasn't.

00:07:41.180 Like the patella tendon.

00:07:42.500 So the patella tendon is basically the, the,

00:07:44.480 the tendon that attaches from the shin bone to the kneecap

00:07:47.400 and my kneecap had actually rolled up the quad a little bit.

00:07:49.860 That's why I was in so much freaking pain.

00:07:52.260 And, um, but yeah, man, like two weeks, it was 10 days later.

00:07:56.420 I was on the OR table.

00:07:58.420 Um, they repaired it.

00:07:59.840 They had to fillet me open.

00:08:01.300 So I've got like a nice, like eight inch, like incision,

00:08:05.000 flay it open.

00:08:05.720 They had to like anchor like three screws into my kneecap

00:08:09.120 to get this thing back anchored.

00:08:10.700 I mean, dude, this was like no joke,

00:08:12.120 like not a fun surgery and not a fun rehab at all.

00:08:15.160 It's, it is sucked.

00:08:16.620 Well, a couple of benefits that come from this.

00:08:19.080 This is the first thing that you can say is your scar is eight inches.

00:08:22.460 Anything below your waist.

00:08:23.500 This is the first thing you can say is eight inches.

00:08:25.260 So, uh, there, there is that.

00:08:28.920 I finally have bragging rights.

00:08:30.740 That's right, man.

00:08:31.760 That's right.

00:08:32.240 I'm eight inches below the waist.

00:08:34.220 It's my knee.

00:08:35.920 Oh, well, good.

00:08:37.240 I'm glad you're on the mend, man.

00:08:38.560 I remember I, I thought for those who don't know,

00:08:42.340 we did this, uh, combined event called the forge

00:08:46.120 just outside of St. Louis earlier in the year.

00:08:48.380 And man, what an honor for me to be honest.

00:08:52.100 And I want to, I want to brag on this a little bit.

00:08:55.040 Um, we've, we've been friends for 10 years.

00:08:58.480 I'd have to look back and see when we did our first podcast.

00:09:01.040 But the fact that we 10 years later did an event together.

00:09:05.440 I mean, how many people can say that we're in very similar spaces.

00:09:09.300 We, we work and talk with a lot of the same guys and we decided to collectively come together

00:09:14.760 and put together this incredible event.

00:09:16.500 And it was a success up until the last hour of the event.

00:09:21.320 But man, I cannot wait for next year for this thing.

00:09:25.420 I can't either.

00:09:26.420 And let, let's, let's be real.

00:09:27.680 It was a success.

00:09:28.960 It just, at the very end, it just, it wasn't the happiest ending for me personally.

00:09:33.420 So, but like I said, you know, it, um, it, you know, everything happens for a reason.

00:09:39.300 And it's, it's really, really allowed me to slow down a little bit and, and get some things done.

00:09:44.380 Like even in my organization that I really needed to get done that it, quite frankly, I was just,

00:09:48.820 I had too many other things going on.

00:09:50.420 And, and, but this really, it just helped me kind of sit down and get some things done,

00:09:53.920 which has been good.

00:09:54.820 Yeah, for sure.

00:09:56.020 Well, how does that tie into, to the book?

00:09:58.520 I mean, at the point, cause you've got a new book out, the pursuit of legendary fatherhood.

00:10:02.720 How did that tie in with the release of the book?

00:10:06.000 Like, did that help things?

00:10:07.220 Did that hurt things?

00:10:08.800 Cause this thing's coming out in, in, uh, in a couple of weeks and obviously it's going

00:10:13.600 to be a huge success cause there are so many men who are interested in becoming better fathers.

00:10:17.360 Yeah.

00:10:19.120 You know, so it, it, it definitely helped me focus on it more.

00:10:23.200 So, um, I knew that I was going to launch the book sometime this year.

00:10:27.380 Um, I'd actually, truth be told, I wrote this book a couple of years ago and, um, it, it has

00:10:34.140 been done for a really long time.

00:10:36.820 And, um, but I've, I've added to, you know, this past year I added to it because there's

00:10:40.980 more things that need to be added to it after a couple of years.

00:10:43.160 But this was the book that I was, I was actually with a publisher, uh, it was back a few years

00:10:49.180 ago and this book was supposed to release in September of 2023 and it ended up not releasing

00:10:56.220 because the publisher I was going to go with went bankrupt.

00:10:59.340 And, um, yeah.

00:11:00.980 So like six weeks from launch, I mean, like, I mean, like literally the cover was done,

00:11:05.500 the whole book was done, everything was done.

00:11:07.420 And, um, one of my, one of my previous podcast guests had also gone through this publisher

00:11:13.700 and he's like, Hey man, he's like, did you get the email?

00:11:16.460 And I'm like, what are you talking about?

00:11:17.520 And long story short, found out they were going bankrupt.

00:11:19.520 And I was like, okay, well, what do I do now?

00:11:21.800 And, uh, so I got with the CEO and the CEO was like, Hey, you know, I can just sign the

00:11:25.740 book back over to you.

00:11:27.260 You know, we're going out of business and just, I'll sign the rights back over to you.

00:11:30.160 I was like, okay, great.

00:11:30.740 I'll take that.

00:11:31.240 So I hired an agent and I gave her the book.

00:11:33.900 She's been in the, in the field for 40 years.

00:11:36.540 So she's kind of like my, my mom in a way, like she's in her sixties, sweet lady.

00:11:40.560 And so I gave her the book and she worked for, uh, Simon and Schuster.

00:11:44.320 She worked for random house.

00:11:45.360 So she's been in this game for a long time.

00:11:47.960 And so I sent her the book and she's like, I love this book.

00:11:50.780 She goes, I can get you a book deal.

00:11:52.600 So she started shopping publishers, uh, Morehouse Publishing answered the call.

00:11:58.140 And then that's when they laid it on me.

00:11:59.620 They're like, we love the book.

00:12:00.720 We actually want you to write another book first.

00:12:02.240 And I'm like, what are you talking about?

00:12:03.920 And that's when they say, we want you to write the book spirit of fatherhood.

00:12:06.900 So I wrote that one and then they said, you know, we'll look at pursuit of legendary

00:12:11.300 fatherhood after that.

00:12:12.500 And then the deal was in my contract was that I could not release pursuit of legendary

00:12:16.980 fatherhood for another year, which that's, so I knew it was going to be sometime this

00:12:20.120 year.

00:12:20.280 I just didn't know when, but yeah, to answer your question, the knee injury, I was like,

00:12:23.820 well, I'm sitting down.

00:12:26.140 So there's not, I could really, really focus on a solid book launch.

00:12:29.640 So that's, that's what I've been doing.

00:12:31.440 And yeah, I mean, that, that's awesome.

00:12:33.400 That actually ties in really nicely with the first premise of your book, which is the concept

00:12:37.800 of the drift.

00:12:38.520 You know, I see so many men use things that come up that we would generally consider negatives

00:12:46.520 or setbacks or failures or trials and obstacles.

00:12:49.740 And we would use that in a way to self-destruct or as an excuse to not do as much as we could.

00:12:54.880 Do you feel like that's what men are dealing with when they deal with the drift as you talk

00:13:01.000 about in your book?

00:13:01.680 Or is it something more subtle and sinister than just setbacks and failures?

00:13:08.940 I think it's B.

00:13:10.520 I really think it's B.

00:13:12.000 So I think you'll appreciate this story.

00:13:15.000 You know, so I, you've interviewed Gary John Bishop.

00:13:17.800 I've, I've interviewed Gary John Bishop.

00:13:19.380 And I remember Gary John Bishop coming on the podcast and he was talking about this concept

00:13:23.320 of interrupt the drift.

00:13:24.460 And I was like, do you remember him, by the way, saying that ever?

00:13:27.540 Like back in the day, he always used to say that.

00:13:29.660 I don't remember him saying, I mean, I know, I know.

00:13:31.680 I know Gary John Bishop and I still follow him closely.

00:13:34.160 He's got some incredible stuff, but I don't remember that term specifically.

00:13:37.840 I mean, this goes back like, it's like seven years ago,

00:13:40.700 but I remember his big thing back then was interrupt the drift.

00:13:43.360 And I remember having him on the podcast.

00:13:44.900 I was like, what's the drift?

00:13:45.900 And then he kind of explained it to me in his terms.

00:13:48.700 And then I really took that and I was like, well, what is the drift then for dad?

00:13:51.940 So I'll explain what the drift is.

00:13:53.700 And I, and most podcasts that I've been on have really, really,

00:13:56.640 they've wanted me to talk about this in particular.

00:13:59.060 So when I first started doing this work and by the way, you know,

00:14:03.140 the mentor that I'll be talking about, I started working with a mentor, Aaron Walker.

00:14:07.160 You know who Aaron Walker is, right?

00:14:08.620 I do.

00:14:09.000 Yeah.

00:14:09.600 Yeah.

00:14:10.060 And so Aaron was like, you know, Hey, if you're really going to be effective in speaking to dads,

00:14:14.020 you need an avatar.

00:14:14.740 And I'm like, well, I am the avatar.

00:14:17.000 Like I'm like, I have all these issues.

00:14:19.200 I have all these problems.

00:14:20.120 Like I'm the one who's trying to help me.

00:14:21.640 He's like, yeah, but you need to, you really need to paint the picture of somebody else that

00:14:25.540 you're speaking to.

00:14:26.340 Like when you're on the podcast or when you're writing a book or writing a blog,

00:14:29.260 you need to be speaking to someone.

00:14:31.060 And I was like, okay.

00:14:31.900 So he really helped me with this.

00:14:33.580 So I'll explain the drift and I'll explain the drift through my avatar, Lance.

00:14:37.240 So Lance is 38 years old.

00:14:39.220 Lance has been 38, by the way, for 10 years.

00:14:41.240 He hasn't aged at all.

00:14:42.260 So he should be 48, he's still 38.

00:14:44.440 He's got three kids, 10 and under.

00:14:47.180 So there's a 10-year-old, there's an eight-year-old, there's a six-year-old.

00:14:49.660 He's married to a woman named Kate.

00:14:50.920 They've been married for 10 years.

00:14:52.620 He knew her for five years before they got married.

00:14:55.680 And this is Lance's life.

00:14:57.160 So Lance goes to a job every single day.

00:14:59.720 He doesn't hate it, but he doesn't love it.

00:15:01.480 But he feels like every time he's going there, that there's a part of him,

00:15:04.820 he's kind of selling his soul to go there, right?

00:15:07.620 He's like, I don't really love this.

00:15:08.920 I didn't really see myself doing this job.

00:15:10.860 But you know what, Kate and the kids, I'm taking care of them.

00:15:13.580 I'm the provider.

00:15:14.280 I can't really disrupt the apple cart.

00:15:16.360 I really need to keep doing this job, even though I don't like it.

00:15:18.760 But I feel like it's kind of sucking my soul.

00:15:20.580 I don't love it.

00:15:21.460 It's not fulfilling, but I guess I'll keep doing it.

00:15:23.820 But basically, he feels like he's trapped.

00:15:25.420 Larry, your imaginary friend sounds really miserable, man.

00:15:28.900 He really does.

00:15:30.480 Are you right?

00:15:32.820 If the imaginary, I only know that because my nine-year-old was watching.

00:15:36.800 Hey, I've watched it too, so I'm fully on.

00:15:39.760 Any dad who's listening to this knows the reference, so we're good.

00:15:43.460 Oh, yeah.

00:15:44.160 Yeah, man.

00:15:45.100 But yeah, so Lance, he doesn't love his job.

00:15:47.400 He comes home, and then he comes home to a marriage that's, I would say, mediocre.

00:15:52.140 It's not broken, but it's definitely not fulfilling.

00:15:54.440 He often thinks about the good old days with Kate when they were dating and things were good.

00:15:59.380 They were intimate.

00:16:00.140 They were having better conversations.

00:16:01.260 Well, now, every conversation is about the kids, everything's about activity, about the bills that need to be paid, the dinners, the chores, all that stuff.

00:16:07.920 And he's just like, gosh, I kind of feel like we're roommates now, or I kind of feel like we're just parents now.

00:16:13.320 We're no longer a couple, and that doesn't feel good to me either.

00:16:16.380 So that's his marriage.

00:16:18.020 Then his kids, he's like three kids under 10.

00:16:21.840 He kind of pulls his hair out.

00:16:23.940 He's trying to be a good dad, has a deep desire to be a good dad, but his patience is always tested.

00:16:28.380 He really doesn't feel like he's got a good connection with his kids.

00:16:30.500 He doesn't see him as much as he wants to, and he just doesn't really feel like the connection that he always wanted.

00:16:36.580 So everything in his life just feels somewhat out of control, but here's the caveat, too.

00:16:41.540 Physically, his body isn't what it was, so he doesn't take care of himself anymore.

00:16:45.520 So he doesn't eat great.

00:16:47.580 He doesn't exercise.

00:16:48.820 That gets to him as well, and in his mind, he's like, well, I shouldn't take care of myself anymore.

00:16:53.640 I've got these people to take care of, so it's selfish for me to do that.

00:16:56.580 And then the last thing is this, and this is where I think I love the Iron Council, right?

00:17:02.740 And I love the alliance, and I love brotherhood, and you know about this, and so do I.

00:17:08.940 And we need to be so careful, and you know this in the Iron Council, that men need to be so careful about who we allow to speak in our lives,

00:17:17.160 because the last thing that's going on with Lance is the people that are speaking into his life.

00:17:21.760 So he doesn't have these iron-sharpened-iron relationships.

00:17:24.420 He's got, like, these rusty relationships, as Stephen Mansfield talks about, like, at acquaintance level.

00:17:29.660 But everybody in his life, when he starts to talk about what's going on in his life, they're like, Lance, what would you expect, dude?

00:17:35.260 You've been married for 10 years.

00:17:36.560 You think you don't have sex anymore?

00:17:37.580 You ain't going to have sex anymore, man.

00:17:38.940 Come on.

00:17:39.360 Like, dude, she's your old lady now, man.

00:17:41.000 And, like, your kids, they're a pain in the ass.

00:17:43.500 They're under 10.

00:17:44.260 They're always going to test your patience.

00:17:45.440 And what you do for a living, dude, no one likes what they do for a living.

00:17:48.120 You know what?

00:17:48.420 Just keep doing it, man.

00:17:50.320 Stop complaining.

00:17:51.360 Put your head down and just do it.

00:17:53.520 And Lance is like, damn, man, this is not what I thought it was going to be.

00:17:59.320 And he just keeps going at life that way, and he can just keep settling for it.

00:18:03.860 And that is the drift.

00:18:05.620 Yeah, I mean, that is, I think that's a perfect avatar.

00:18:12.520 That's a real person.

00:18:13.720 It's not even an avatar, right?

00:18:14.920 That is an actual.

00:18:15.840 Yeah, it's a real person.

00:18:17.040 Yeah, it is a real person.

00:18:18.200 I know, I mean, I even deal with that.

00:18:19.860 I've got a fairly new relationship.

00:18:22.360 We've been dating for about four months.

00:18:26.200 This is crazy.

00:18:27.080 About four months.

00:18:28.280 And just the other day, I realized, you know, I've helped her with some projects around the house.

00:18:32.940 And we spent the weekend.

00:18:34.700 And I helped her finish the fence that she had to put around her place.

00:18:39.320 And then I realized, I'm like, whoa, we've already drifted.

00:18:43.660 We've already, in four months, we've already drifted.

00:18:47.260 So I messaged her back.

00:18:48.320 And I messaged her the other day.

00:18:49.800 And I said, hey, can I steal you away, you know, this Saturday in a couple of weeks?

00:18:54.180 And we can go up to Salt Lake and just have a great weekend together.

00:18:57.100 And she's like, yeah, I really need that.

00:18:58.620 I'm like, good.

00:18:59.480 Because I need that too.

00:19:00.600 Like, it's so easy.

00:19:02.040 In four months, let alone in four years or 40 years to drift into complacency, lethargy, just mediocrity.

00:19:14.620 It's rough, man.

00:19:15.840 And I think a lot of guys have found themselves in that position.

00:19:18.200 Yeah, it's that wash, rinse, repeat.

00:19:21.660 And I love how you actually talked about it and how you described it.

00:19:26.940 You're like, is it slow and is it subtle and is it sinister?

00:19:30.880 Yeah, it usually is.

00:19:31.920 There isn't anything usually on fire until it is.

00:19:34.420 And you know as well as I do that if a man stays in the drift that long, because the whole time their energy, you know, pays for it, you know, our relationships pay for it, our health, our mental health pays for it.

00:19:47.700 And then this is where I think, guys, this is where we wake up.

00:19:50.800 And that's when she looks over at you.

00:19:53.460 And my wife did this to me years ago.

00:19:55.720 And she was just like, yeah, I don't know if I really signed up for this.

00:19:59.120 And I'm like, wait, what?

00:20:00.120 And this is like right when I started that age, right, right, maybe even right after where she had had enough, you know, and I think a lot of women out there too.

00:20:08.580 And here's the other thing too, guys who are in the drift, they've had enough.

00:20:12.840 They don't want to be in it anymore either.

00:20:14.640 So like, I think that, but the biggest gap I think is guys don't know exactly how to get out of it.

00:20:23.940 Well, okay.

00:20:24.520 So I have a couple of paths I want to take.

00:20:26.440 So option A is how do guys get out of it?

00:20:28.620 And we'll talk about that.

00:20:30.120 But as you were talking about your wife, let's be honest, women drift too.

00:20:34.520 And I think it's fair that we have this conversation.

00:20:36.960 So as the patriarch and leader of your home as a man, I think it's important to acknowledge when your spouse might be drifting.

00:20:44.880 And also, so path B on this conversation is how do you inspire your wife to get out of the drift as well?

00:20:52.380 Because that is a real thing.

00:20:53.800 And I know a lot of guys message me and they're like, hey, my wife isn't as motivated or ambitious as she once was and things have changed.

00:21:00.440 So I think it takes two to tango.

00:21:02.020 So let's talk about both.

00:21:03.080 But let's address our aspect first.

00:21:06.220 When a man finally comes to the realization, maybe it is his wife who says, hey, I didn't sign up for this.

00:21:10.960 Or I'm not attracted to you or I'm not in love with you anymore is one thing you often hear.

00:21:16.420 I love you, but I'm not in love with you.

00:21:18.980 That's probably an indicator as well.

00:21:21.120 What can a man do in order to get himself out of that drift?

00:21:24.580 Because he's probably already low energy, low motivation, low enthusiasm for life.

00:21:31.260 So what does he actually do about it?

00:21:34.280 I think every man has, you know, what we would call like the first domino, like the first thing that needs to fall in order for these other things to start happening.

00:21:43.180 You know, and I think every man in his life has something like that.

00:21:45.920 For some guys, I think it's, it might be their faith.

00:21:48.820 You know, it might be like, you know what, I really need to get back to church.

00:21:52.220 I really need to get back to my Bible.

00:21:53.440 I really need to get around other men in a Bible study.

00:21:56.480 I need to get something secure in my life that's good, right?

00:22:01.120 For some guys, like for 30 plus years, for me, it's been fitness.

00:22:05.100 Like I need fitness in my life because without fitness in my life, quite frankly, a lot of the other things fall apart, right?

00:22:13.720 And for some guys, I would say it's going to work on their marriage.

00:22:17.980 Like that's the first domino for some guys as well.

00:22:20.740 Because like for some guys, their marriage has been, has been hurting for so long, or maybe it's even a short amount of time, but they're just, their marriage is like the one thing that they want to try to repair.

00:22:31.540 And I agree with you.

00:22:32.600 It takes two to tango.

00:22:34.080 It's not just on the guy.

00:22:35.320 At the same time, like if a guy can get his arms wrapped around that one and get that thing moving in the right direction, usually a man who's got his marriage put together, he's probably, he might be a more patient father because his marriage is put together.

00:22:49.480 A guy who is maybe focusing on his faith might have a better mindset for being a dad and being a husband, right?

00:22:58.720 A guy who's working on his fitness might have a little bit more reserves in the tank and more resiliency to handle the other things in his life as well.

00:23:06.440 But I think it's identifying one area that's going to be something that's going to get you going.

00:23:11.440 Do you feel like, so as you were saying this, I'm just running it through my own lens and filter for me, I would probably say it's novelty more than any of what you suggested.

00:23:25.400 Like if I, if I can create something new and exciting in my life, I feel as if that might give me the jumpstart I need to find some vigor and excitement about other aspects of my life.

00:23:37.180 Have you found that to be true?

00:23:38.100 Yeah. I mean, it could be something new that's exciting or it might be something that a guy has just been completely away from that he used to love that he just hasn't done for, for a very long time.

00:23:50.500 Yeah. Do you find that most guys have to force themselves into it or how does that first aspect work?

00:23:57.920 Because there's the whole concept of discipline is better than motivation and motivation is inferior to having systems, as James Clear might say.

00:24:08.800 There's different schools of thought when it comes to this.

00:24:11.720 There's willpower, there's discipline, there's motivation, there's systems.

00:24:15.980 Where does a guy tap into?

00:24:17.260 I think a guy needs a system for sure, because otherwise I think if, if we don't have a system, then we're just, you know, we're just a victim of our own vices and our own feelings, quite frankly.

00:24:32.700 I think a man also needs the right people around him because like, you know, if you take a look at Lance's life and the people that were speaking into it, right?

00:24:40.960 And he's like, and they're basically telling him like, dude, your life is, your life is fine.

00:24:45.560 Like, you know, just keep going, right?

00:24:47.740 It's not that big of a deal.

00:24:49.280 And Lance is like, no, this is not the life that I signed up for.

00:24:52.540 This is not the life that I want.

00:24:53.760 So I think it's also surrounding him with the right people.

00:24:56.640 But to answer your question very specifically, I think it completely and totally depends on the person.

00:25:02.160 So both you and I have communities, but one of the things that I've done over the past few years is work one-on-one with people as well.

00:25:10.560 And I actually, I love working one-on-one with people.

00:25:13.440 And one thing I have found by working with one-on-one with people is each person has individual needs and differences that are going on in their life.

00:25:22.720 Like, so for instance, right now, I have a guy right now, one of my one-on-one clients, like, I don't have to, I don't have to motivate him to do a thing.

00:25:30.380 Like this guy will go through a freak.

00:25:32.080 I just tell him like, this is what you need to go do.

00:25:33.860 He will go through a brick wall, right?

00:25:35.920 So no problem with motivation or consistency.

00:25:39.280 He's just, is like, just tell me what direction I need to go and what I need to do.

00:25:42.800 That's it.

00:25:43.700 Then I have another guy who consistency is his killer.

00:25:49.460 Absolutely his killer.

00:25:50.460 Like I have to, he's, he's one of my one-on-one clients.

00:25:54.740 He's one of those guys that I have to check in on that.

00:25:58.780 I, I tend to chase a little bit for his accountability.

00:26:02.380 This other guy that I'm talking about reports to me every day by the end of the day, but this other guy, it's consistency.

00:26:09.460 So I think it just completely depends on the person, what their world looks like, what, what their personality is like and what is needed most.

00:26:18.060 Because man, there, there's so many different, different situations and different people.

00:26:21.720 So yeah, with the guy that is so motivated to be consistent, he just needs you to point him in the right direction.

00:26:29.720 How do you help a guy like that?

00:26:31.740 Because when I hear that, I, I think of the, uh, feed a man a fish versus teach a man to fish.

00:26:38.360 And if he always needs you in his life, telling him what to do, how is that going to serve him if you're gone, not around, unavailable, et cetera?

00:26:48.540 That, that's a good question.

00:26:50.040 But I think it's also that this guy is wired.

00:26:52.940 And I like the question because there are guys out there that I think are in codependent relationships.

00:26:58.680 In other words, I can't succeed without you.

00:27:00.820 Right.

00:27:01.260 Right.

00:27:01.440 And I think that's, that is super dangerous.

00:27:03.320 If you, if you are a person listening to this podcast and you're like, I can't, I can't succeed unless this person, this person, this person in my life, that's going to be a problem.

00:27:12.960 However, I think what I'm really hitting on with this particular individual is how coachable he is.

00:27:17.220 Right.

00:27:18.020 Because, um, and I'll, I'll give you an example of this.

00:27:20.360 So right now, like I decided since, since I got hurt, since, since you broke me in half, uh, when we were doing tug of war, um, I decided, I was like, you know what?

00:27:31.780 It's been, it's been years since I've hired a personal trainer, like years.

00:27:37.600 Like, I can't remember the last time I, I was probably 2017.

00:27:40.920 And I was like, you know what?

00:27:42.300 I was like, at this time in my life, I really, really want to get my fitness to a certain level, despite what's going on with rehabbing my knee.

00:27:49.160 So I'm going to hire a trainer to kick my ass.

00:27:51.840 But here's the thing.

00:27:52.680 I told this trainer, I was like, I only need to work with you for two months.

00:27:55.820 I just need you to remind me form.

00:27:57.900 I need you to show me a few new things.

00:28:00.080 I need to just kind of get reinvigorated.

00:28:02.140 And then I'm off on my own again.

00:28:03.740 Like, and I, I, and I think that that type of approach or that type of perspective, I think is a good one to have when you work with a coach.

00:28:11.060 Because if I'm codependent on like my success resides on this trainer, man, I'm in trouble.

00:28:15.680 And I think that that really is a message for guys out there that if, if you're leaning too much on that codependency for your coach or your trainer or whoever else, like I can't be successful without them.

00:28:24.740 They're just your guide.

00:28:26.180 You know, they're the ones who are showing you the direction, but they're not going to be with you forever.

00:28:31.140 Right.

00:28:32.080 Yeah.

00:28:32.280 That makes sense.

00:28:32.820 Man, I'm just going to take a pause from the conversation very quickly.

00:28:38.120 I want to talk about divorce.

00:28:39.400 I know this is a little bit gloom in the wake of what we're talking about now, but the reality is that men do go through divorces at an increasingly steady rate.

00:28:48.000 And it might seem like the end, but I'm here to tell you from personal experience that it isn't.

00:28:52.860 And also any man who's navigated a divorce can attest to that.

00:28:57.240 But how do you navigate a divorce, quote unquote, successfully?

00:29:01.140 And what does that even mean?

00:29:02.820 Uh, whether you were blindsided or even if you initiated the divorce, I'd have you consider that the path to redemption in your life, it's just a formula with a whole lot of variables in the equation.

00:29:15.040 And that's okay.

00:29:16.860 Like many math problems, uh, you just need to solve the problem in the order of operations.

00:29:23.980 You might remember that from math.

00:29:25.700 Uh, PEMDAS is what I remember.

00:29:27.540 So if I remember correctly, it was parentheses, exponents, multiplication, division, uh, addition and subtraction.

00:29:36.960 So that was what I remember from math all those years ago.

00:29:40.980 Well, also guys, there is an order of operations for navigating your divorce too.

00:29:46.200 And we're going to teach it to you from managing your money, uh, protecting your rights as a father to getting right in the head and heart to living life as a single father.

00:29:55.280 And maybe at some point starting to date again, if you know the order of operations, then you too can navigate the most difficult time in your life with as little adversity as possible.

00:30:07.500 And that's what I want for myself.

00:30:09.220 It's also what I want for you.

00:30:11.020 Check it out at divorce, not death.com.

00:30:13.060 That's divorce, not death.com.

00:30:16.040 Do that right after the conversation.

00:30:17.900 Let me get back to it with Larry.

00:30:21.840 So on the other, the flip side is the guy with that deals with consistency issues.

00:30:27.480 How do you coach a guy like that to be consistent?

00:30:29.960 Because he probably is a personality who, and I just, I just want men to look at themselves through the lens that you're explaining right now.

00:30:38.640 Are you a guy that just needs a little direction?

00:30:40.480 Because you can always find direction, just hire a coach, right?

00:30:43.120 Or are you a guy who needs a little kick in the pants because you're inconsistent?

00:30:49.360 So I'm just hoping men hear this and they're looking at the lens in which they, they, they operate.

00:30:55.420 But for a guy who's inconsistent, what kind of conversations are you having with that individual?

00:31:01.700 I think it's really understanding.

00:31:04.100 So like, I'll give you an example of this particular individual that I'm talking about.

00:31:07.720 So in his world, his inconsistency starts and stops with him, right?

00:31:14.020 Or that's the way he thinks.

00:31:15.820 We started working together and I'll, I'll tell you, this guy's marriage is, is not good.

00:31:20.180 His, his wife is constantly complaining about, she's like, you're all in and then you're not.

00:31:28.060 And then you're all in and then you're not.

00:31:30.320 And then you're all in and then you're not.

00:31:32.160 Like this has been this guy's life story, you know, that he will do something for a short amount of time and then revert back to where he was.

00:31:39.000 And his wife is repelled by it.

00:31:42.240 She's repulsed by it.

00:31:43.440 And that's because women need safety.

00:31:46.000 They need consistency and they need certainty.

00:31:48.360 Right.

00:31:48.580 So if a man is, so like for this individual, he's not showing up for her, right?

00:31:53.620 He's not even showing up for himself, which actually impacts her.

00:31:56.200 I was on a, well, you know, Dan Holloway over at, um, drinking bros.

00:32:01.520 I was on his podcast and, um, we were talking to his significant other, his girlfriend, and we ran this past him.

00:32:10.560 And we were like, what, what's your, what's your, what, what is your perspective of a guy who's inconsistent?

00:32:16.620 And she's like, well, what do you mean?

00:32:17.760 And I was like, well, here's, here's a real example.

00:32:19.660 And this is an example of my client.

00:32:21.080 So one of the things I'm working on with my client, this, this particular week is his alarm goes off at five 30 and he has a tendency.

00:32:29.120 He always tells his wife, I'm going to get up at five 30 tomorrow.

00:32:31.620 I'm going to cold plunge.

00:32:32.620 And then I'm going to go for, and then I'm going to go work out.

00:32:35.880 But he, he rarely does it like hardly ever.

00:32:38.820 And she gets pissed.

00:32:40.040 Yeah.

00:32:40.400 He's like, I don't understand why she gets pissed.

00:32:42.040 I was like, and I was like, she gets pissed because you say one thing and do another.

00:32:47.080 He's like, yeah, but it's, it's just my thing.

00:32:49.080 I was like, it doesn't matter.

00:32:50.180 It does not matter to your wife.

00:32:52.280 The thing is you're inconsistent.

00:32:54.200 I was like, if you are consistent, that gives her certainty.

00:32:57.880 If she has certainty, she feels safe.

00:32:59.920 If she feels safe, she's going to feel that she has a higher level of intimacy with you.

00:33:04.200 Cause she can depend on you.

00:33:05.480 I was like, so I ran this past, uh, Holloway's significant other.

00:33:09.460 And I was like, what do you think of that?

00:33:10.800 And I literally gave her that example.

00:33:12.380 She's like, that is one of the most unsexy, unattractive things ever.

00:33:15.260 A guy who's going to hit snooze and tell me the night before that he's going to get up,

00:33:18.640 even though it kind of doesn't directly, it doesn't directly impact me.

00:33:23.600 It affects me big time.

00:33:26.180 So when I, when I basically cast that mirror in front of this guy, I'm like, listen, if

00:33:29.920 you want to fix your marriage, you have to be more consistent with yourself and you have

00:33:34.460 to show that consistency.

00:33:36.620 And that's when I think he got it.

00:33:38.600 And this is when he has started showing back up again.

00:33:40.640 So I think it's really understanding what is the lever?

00:33:43.640 Like, what is the motivation here?

00:33:45.700 What is your, it, because I'll say this for what it is.

00:33:48.880 He doesn't deem himself worth it enough to get up and cold plunge and work out.

00:33:55.220 However, he deems his marriage worth it.

00:33:57.820 Right?

00:33:58.300 So for him, that is the thing.

00:34:00.760 That's the catalyst right now.

00:34:02.020 But over time, I don't think anybody should be doing something for somebody else or something

00:34:07.200 else.

00:34:07.620 We need to be doing it for ourselves.

00:34:09.360 But right now, like for him, that's just not enough for him right now, but it's just

00:34:14.180 getting him into the habit of it now.

00:34:16.620 Yeah.

00:34:17.040 I mean, well, and there is a direct correlation between him hitting the snooze and telling

00:34:20.960 her that he's going to get up and do the cold plunge and the workout.

00:34:25.480 And, and the direct correlation is when she says, Hey, will you change the oil in the,

00:34:30.060 in the truck or the vehicle?

00:34:31.860 Are you going to do it?

00:34:33.380 You know, when you say, Hey, you're going to go and ask for a raise or a promotion at work

00:34:38.200 today, are you actually going to do that?

00:34:40.920 When you say you're going to fix that thing around the house, are you actually going to

00:34:45.620 do it?

00:34:45.880 I think it's better to be a lazy sack of shit than it is to be a disingenuous, motivated

00:34:51.800 person.

00:34:53.700 Because at least somebody can rely on you being a lazy sack of shit.

00:34:58.600 Yeah.

00:34:59.000 They know what they're going to get.

00:34:59.980 Right.

00:35:00.280 But if you pretend to be motivated and you're disingenuous about it, that's worse because

00:35:05.320 they're thinking you're going to be one way and you're the antithesis to that.

00:35:12.080 I a hundred percent agree with that.

00:35:13.740 It's the, it's the inconsistency.

00:35:16.440 It's the uncertainty of what am I going to get?

00:35:19.920 You know, like, um, I'll give you an example.

00:35:22.000 I, I have, I've, I've got an awesome father-in-law.

00:35:25.080 This guy's great.

00:35:26.160 He, uh, I've known him for 30 years.

00:35:27.960 He can fix anything.

00:35:29.120 One of the, one of the nicest dudes on the planet.

00:35:31.280 Um, but he, he, he really, he, he doesn't do dishes or kitchen work, you know?

00:35:40.220 And, but he's never like attempted to help it for a little while and then not do it and

00:35:45.760 then attempt to do it.

00:35:46.540 He just has never done it for as long as we've been married.

00:35:48.860 Yeah.

00:35:49.340 That's awesome.

00:35:50.060 Like 40 years.

00:35:51.120 It's awesome.

00:35:51.620 Right.

00:35:52.060 So, right.

00:35:52.820 But, but here's the thing, my mother-in-law, she's like, I know he'll go out and fix the

00:35:56.300 car.

00:35:56.680 Right.

00:35:57.020 I know he'll go out and fix the, fix the pool.

00:35:59.920 He'll fix the deck.

00:36:00.920 He'll do everything else, but I know he'll never do kit.

00:36:03.860 He'll never do the dishes.

00:36:05.140 He'll probably never cook unless it's nachos.

00:36:08.040 Right.

00:36:08.580 But that's just him.

00:36:09.640 And that's fine.

00:36:10.460 And here's the thing.

00:36:11.320 She's just like, that's who he is.

00:36:13.020 And, but I like all this other stuff.

00:36:14.480 So she knows what she's going to get.

00:36:16.080 And I agree with you a hundred percent with that one.

00:36:18.320 Well, and he's probably been clear about it too.

00:36:19.980 Like, Hey, I don't do that.

00:36:22.240 That's a little bit of the era as well.

00:36:24.060 I'm sure.

00:36:24.680 But I actually don't think, I don't think what most women would have a problem with

00:36:30.260 that.

00:36:30.540 You know, the common, the common narrative is like, is, is guys believe, well, maybe I'll

00:36:35.120 just go do the dishes and then my wife will want to have sex with me.

00:36:38.120 She's not interested in you doing the dishes, bro.

00:36:41.040 She's interested in you being a man of your word.

00:36:44.000 So if you say you're going to do the dishes, then you should.

00:36:46.620 But if you don't say it, you're not required to do the dishes.

00:36:49.180 Go do something else around the house.

00:36:50.920 Fix the plumbing, fix the electrical, uh, go fix the pool, go build a fence, go mow the

00:36:56.300 lawn, go get the oil changed in the car.

00:36:58.160 Better yet, do it yourself.

00:36:59.380 Change the tire, clean out the garage, go make some money.

00:37:03.020 It's not about the dishes.

00:37:04.220 It's just about being a man of your word.

00:37:07.880 Absolutely agreed.

00:37:09.080 And it's, you're right.

00:37:10.520 It's, it's knowing exactly what it's.

00:37:12.780 I think it'd be different.

00:37:13.920 And, and you would probably agree with me if he did none of that stuff and he just

00:37:18.060 sat on his ass, right?

00:37:19.100 That would, that, that'd be a serious problem.

00:37:21.000 Absolutely.

00:37:21.780 But he, but he is, he is creating certainty in all these other areas of things that he

00:37:25.520 does do.

00:37:25.900 And he's been consistent with it for 40 plus years.

00:37:28.660 So, yeah.

00:37:29.840 Yeah.

00:37:31.120 Okay.

00:37:31.520 Let's flip the script a little bit.

00:37:33.220 So let's say a man feels like he's listening to your podcast or he's listening to mine.

00:37:38.680 He's getting motivated.

00:37:40.440 He's building in systems.

00:37:41.560 He's got accountability.

00:37:42.540 He's starting to change his life around.

00:37:44.400 And this happens often.

00:37:46.340 That's the point of both of our movements, but the wife is lagging behind a little bit.

00:37:51.180 Maybe she's skeptical.

00:37:52.500 Maybe she's not as ambitious.

00:37:53.980 Maybe she's not doing what she needs to be doing.

00:37:56.320 How does a man then help her understand the drift in a respectful, I'm trying to think

00:38:04.400 of the right word, a respectful way, but also in a way that gets her motivated to step

00:38:10.380 it up a notch.

00:38:10.960 So I'll throw myself under the knife of this one, because this is something that when you

00:38:18.120 and I first started doing this work 10 years ago, like I said, I'm sure you've had guys

00:38:21.660 like this, especially when they joined the Iron Council.

00:38:24.320 They're like, man, this is awesome.

00:38:25.700 How do I get my wife on board with personal development and learning some of these things

00:38:30.600 too?

00:38:30.960 Like everybody probably wanted to go coach their wives.

00:38:33.780 And to bring up Gary John Bishop's name again, he was our first speaker at the Dad Edge Summit

00:38:39.300 back in 2018.

00:38:40.760 And I'll never forget, we had a guy ask this question.

00:38:44.800 And Gary's response was classic.

00:38:46.940 He's like, well, you have a choice.

00:38:48.280 You can either coach your wife or sleep with her, but you can't do both.

00:38:52.040 But basically the moral history, so I'll throw myself under the axe of this one.

00:38:59.540 Like I was saying, I used to try, I was so excited about everything that we were learning

00:39:04.560 early on when you and I first started doing this work.

00:39:07.540 And I would tell him, oh, you should do this.

00:39:09.380 And you should do that.

00:39:10.140 You should do that.

00:39:10.800 You should do this.

00:39:11.440 Like I was trying to, and I couldn't understand why this was like repulsive to her and why

00:39:17.240 I, why guys early on that I was coaching in our group, like why their wives were so resistant

00:39:22.220 to it.

00:39:22.540 I'm like, why is this?

00:39:23.480 And it's because I think, I think that that statement is true.

00:39:26.940 Like we can either coach our wives or, or sleep with them.

00:39:29.720 But here's what I will say.

00:39:32.020 I don't think directly telling your wife around things like this, like personal development

00:39:38.240 or how she should get out of the drift, or this would be better for her.

00:39:40.880 Or I don't, I think for most wives, I will never say every wife, but I think for most

00:39:45.340 wives, that's not effective.

00:39:46.880 In fact, I think that they'll probably push back on that or they just won't do it.

00:39:53.220 But here's where I found the secret sauces being the example, right?

00:39:57.860 So like, for instance, if Jessica was going through, let's just say something with her

00:40:03.740 girlfriends that, you know, she, she, she needed to talk to one of her girlfriends and didn't

00:40:07.800 want to create any conflict.

00:40:08.940 Right.

00:40:09.300 And before I'd be like, oh, we just learned this really great conflict resolution skill.

00:40:13.080 Let me teach it to you or something like that.

00:40:14.820 Right.

00:40:15.260 Yeah.

00:40:15.880 And instead, you know, I just go about, I just, I just ask her a lot of questions and

00:40:20.680 then I'll give her examples of like, you know what?

00:40:22.760 I was like, we just had a conflict situation, you know, within our leadership.

00:40:27.020 And, you know, this is what I, it was very similar to yours, you know, and this is how

00:40:32.240 we handled it.

00:40:33.840 And if I could do it over again, I probably would have tweaked this, this, and this, but

00:40:37.460 the outcome was kind of like this.

00:40:39.300 It was a pretty decent outcome.

00:40:40.560 So I share these things with her more of an example and that, and I don't ever say you

00:40:46.160 should go do that, or let me teach this to you, or you should be doing this.

00:40:50.340 I just share with her what we're doing.

00:40:52.100 And then it's really up to her whether, whether or not she wants to take that and do anything

00:40:56.060 with it.

00:40:56.520 Or if she wants to go implement it in some way, shape or form.

00:41:00.500 And what I've found over a decade of being married to her and doing this work is the

00:41:05.500 less I talk about it and the more I live it, the more she actually comes along for the

00:41:10.220 ride, which has been really cool.

00:41:12.520 Well, that's what they want, right?

00:41:13.500 The integrity aspect.

00:41:14.840 I think there's a couple of things that have been helpful for me, if you don't mind.

00:41:19.160 I mean, I can share things that have been cultivating her own journey because self

00:41:26.380 development for a woman looks a whole lot different than self-development for a man.

00:41:30.440 Like men can be like, here's the 10 things I need to do to implement a morning routine.

00:41:35.220 And a woman might be, I just want to learn how to cook dinner better.

00:41:43.200 Or I just want to learn how to start doing beekeeping or grow a garden.

00:41:50.100 These other things where a guy's like, what?

00:41:52.680 No, like here's 10 ways to communicate more effectively.

00:41:56.980 And she's like, I just want to go grow tomatoes and cucumbers.

00:42:01.140 And we discount it.

00:42:03.180 We're like, well, it's not good.

00:42:04.880 But just let her go grow the tomatoes, man.

00:42:08.480 Like buy her a book about how to grow great tomatoes.

00:42:10.580 And then she can make you a BLT and everybody will be happy.

00:42:15.420 So cultivating her journey as opposed to yours.

00:42:18.660 And then the other one is just encouraging the positive.

00:42:22.460 When she does something you like, maybe she makes a delicious meal.

00:42:28.140 And maybe it's been a little while since she cooked you dinner.

00:42:32.460 But then she makes you a killer meal.

00:42:34.200 And you just say, you know what?

00:42:35.280 I love when you make this food.

00:42:38.460 This food is amazing.

00:42:40.060 She's going to be way more tempted to make you another meal tomorrow night or the next night.

00:42:45.440 Or if she comes out and she looks like a knockout in those new pair of jeans.

00:42:50.420 And maybe she's used to wearing sweats after the day because it's, you know, it's been a long day.

00:42:55.960 And she's kind of, she has her hair pulled up and a messy bun and she's got sweats on.

00:42:59.540 But then one night she comes out in those jeans and you say to her, oh my gosh, your ass looks amazing.

00:43:06.020 Or you look like you're, man, you look so good.

00:43:10.720 Like I love those jeans, but I'd love to get them off of you or whatever.

00:43:14.140 Like she's going to be way more tempted to wear those jeans the next day than the sweats that she's been wearing for the last three months.

00:43:21.460 I think just encouraging, that's just human nature, just encouraging what you want.

00:43:26.760 Yeah, praise for good behavior and it'll probably be repeated.

00:43:30.160 Yeah.

00:43:31.240 Yeah.

00:43:32.680 It's tough, man.

00:43:33.980 Those are gold.

00:43:34.600 It's tough to find ways to motivate and inspire each other because we as partners want the best versions of ourselves.

00:43:43.900 But let's, let's shift gears here a little bit because now I want to bring kids into the mix.

00:43:48.660 You know, if it was just you and Jessica or, or me and my girlfriend or any man who's listening to this and his significant other, I think we'd all feel like life's pretty easy and good.

00:43:59.740 But then you bring kids into the mix and I love them, but it adds a whole new dynamic to the equation.

00:44:06.740 A thousand percent, man.

00:44:08.420 Yeah.

00:44:08.580 I mean, that will, um, the kid aspect.

00:44:11.220 I mean, like this is where we talk about, you know, when you're married, you have a kid, suddenly the marriage seems to slide on the back burner and now we're parents.

00:44:21.600 This is what happened to Lance, right?

00:44:24.260 It's like his marriage got slid on the back burner and then felt like a roommate situation.

00:44:29.140 So yeah, it could be really disruptive.

00:44:31.400 Yeah.

00:44:32.040 How do you, how do you find, I'm going to just speak through my own lens.

00:44:36.220 Uh, my kids are getting older.

00:44:37.620 My oldest is a senior this year.

00:44:40.000 Um, my, my youngest is, is nine.

00:44:42.500 And so they're getting older and when they get older, they start to develop their own little personalities.

00:44:49.220 There's a lot more independence that they're looking for.

00:44:51.880 Uh, there's a lot more rebelliousness in their voices and in their demeanor and what they do.

00:44:57.140 How do you then, this is really broad in general, um, motivate your children, especially when you find that they're deviating from the path you think would be best for them.

00:45:08.600 Um, so I think, um, this is, this is a good one and this is, this is very, very timely.

00:45:17.900 Um, so you and I have kids right around the same age.

00:45:21.220 So my oldest just graduated from high school and then my youngest is nine, just like yours.

00:45:26.740 And I would say for the nine and the 11 year old, and I would even remember back when, you know, the older brothers were, who are 19 and 17 now were, were the same.

00:45:35.500 Um, I will tell you that, you know, while my kids have been in school, um, and I can speak to the old, actually I can speak to all of them right now.

00:45:46.320 While they were in school and they're all in school, three out of four of them are still in school.

00:45:50.240 You know, they, there was definitely, I think a ton of structure and to be honest, like luckily they've been really great kids.

00:45:59.500 Like, so they, we haven't had to do a ton of steering, but I would definitely say we've had to do a lot of correction.

00:46:05.720 Right.

00:46:06.660 Um, for my 17 year old, when he was 11 and 12, we had, I mean, there was like a year where it was, there was a lot of correction and there was a lot of steering the ship back.

00:46:16.040 Like, and just right now, truth be told, I would say it's funny, man, my oldest who's graduated high school, he's now in EMT school.

00:46:26.820 He's now looking for a job.

00:46:29.020 He, his entire friend group, his entire tribe just completely dispersed and went off to college.

00:46:34.580 He knows kind of, so his tribe is left, right.

00:46:37.800 And his, his structure around school is pretty much gone.

00:46:40.640 He's only taking one class right now.

00:46:42.400 It's for, uh, it's for EMT and it's online.

00:46:45.380 So it's not in person.

00:46:47.680 And I see that structure, um, getting really loose.

00:46:52.540 And I've had more conversations with him lately around making sure that he is heading where he needs to go.

00:47:00.160 Right.

00:47:00.500 Which is, he's going to be an EMT.

00:47:02.180 He's going to, he's going to apply for the fire Academy in a few months.

00:47:05.060 He's going to go to fire Academy one and then two, and then he's going to go to paramedic school.

00:47:09.120 So, but I'll tell you, you can tell, man, he's very overwhelmed by like, oh my gosh, like this is life now.

00:47:15.920 This, and he wants to kind of distract himself.

00:47:19.320 Right.

00:47:20.000 And he wants to not be as disciplined as he used to be and that kind of thing.

00:47:24.220 So we have had several conversations on a weekly basis around what does your day look like?

00:47:32.460 What does the structure look like today?

00:47:34.040 What needs to be done?

00:47:35.280 What, what is the priorities today?

00:47:36.940 What by Friday, what needs to, what needs to happen?

00:47:40.120 What is due?

00:47:40.760 What needs to be accomplished?

00:47:42.220 So it's a much different conversation.

00:47:44.940 It kind of reminds me of kind of like the former clients that you and I were talking about early

00:47:49.640 on in this, in this podcast, you know, it's like what I'm finding out as a dad is without

00:47:55.240 some of that structure that I think school provides.

00:47:58.460 And I think some of like the friend group provides and just that structure, I think from, you

00:48:02.840 know, zero to 18 provides.

00:48:04.220 And now suddenly it's, it's a, it's a lot more loose that I've had to dial in structure

00:48:09.280 and conversations that are pretty direct and, uh, and, and really getting to the heart

00:48:14.140 of things.

00:48:14.480 So like, I would say in some seasons it hasn't been needed, but in other seasons it's needed

00:48:21.400 10 X and I'm, I'm in one of those seasons right now where I'm always having conversations

00:48:26.320 with my oldest one, you know, as you're saying that I can't help, but imagine that there's

00:48:30.540 a bunch of guys saying, I would love to be able to have a conversation with my son about

00:48:34.080 what you're talking about, but they won't listen to me, uh, or they won't have that

00:48:37.900 conversation.

00:48:38.880 Why?

00:48:39.420 And I've had conversations with your oldest son who we're talking about now.

00:48:42.820 Yeah.

00:48:43.260 Um, and he's a, he's a great young man and obviously he comes from great parents.

00:48:48.720 So I think that has a big part to do with it, but why, what do you attribute him listening

00:48:55.160 to you and being willing to have those conversations too?

00:48:58.020 Because not every child will do that.

00:49:01.480 Before I answer that, can I, can I say something?

00:49:03.940 Sure.

00:49:04.320 Yeah.

00:49:04.800 Yeah.

00:49:05.120 Yeah.

00:49:05.640 So, um, I just want to, I want to share this, um, with the group because I think, um, and

00:49:11.380 this is, this is a segue, I think of what it means to have really good men in your life.

00:49:16.380 And I'm talking about me.

00:49:18.100 Um, I think it's really, really important that you are not the only good man, the only trusted

00:49:24.720 man, the only man with high integrity that speaks into your kid's life, you know, and

00:49:30.360 you have spoken into my son's life.

00:49:33.020 You know, you guys have had a conversation, a couple of conversations, and I welcome that

00:49:37.980 because you add a different perspective.

00:49:40.280 And I think a different voice that is just as powerful, maybe even more powerful because

00:49:46.260 you're not his dad, you know?

00:49:47.840 And, and I think sometimes it's like, it's like the coach, like you, the dad can say things

00:49:51.420 10 times, but once the football coach says it, it's like, Oh, the coach just told me

00:49:55.000 that.

00:49:55.180 And you're like, I've been saying that for a year, dude.

00:49:57.820 It's like insulting, but also good.

00:49:59.980 Right.

00:50:01.080 It's so good because I'm like, well, shit, I'm glad the coach said it and you got it

00:50:05.380 right.

00:50:05.680 Either way, you got it right.

00:50:07.460 So I w I want to make sure that the audience knows that, that, you know, you don't have

00:50:12.860 to do fatherhood all by yourself.

00:50:15.540 And when needed, this is where tribe comes in.

00:50:18.740 This is where like the iron council comes in, right?

00:50:20.600 This is where it's like, man, like I need someone to speak to my son and I've got a ton

00:50:24.880 of trusted dudes here.

00:50:26.080 And like, I needed you to talk to him about something you did.

00:50:30.560 And it worked out great.

00:50:32.720 So I like, I think number one, that is really, really important.

00:50:35.920 So I know I didn't answer the question right off the bat, but I think that's really important.

00:50:38.860 And I, and I just want to tell you, I thank you for that.

00:50:40.800 And I appreciate you being that friend to me and that friend to him.

00:50:43.220 So thanks.

00:50:43.900 Yeah, of course.

00:50:45.540 But to answer your question, um, so in the book, you know, where I talk about raising

00:50:50.260 kids, um, luckily I stumbled into doing this work 10 years ago.

00:50:55.320 So thank God, I, you know, I started doing this work when he was nine.

00:50:58.360 So I started learning a lot of these skills on how to, how to talk to your kids so that

00:51:03.080 they'll listen, how your kids, the environment that you need to create.

00:51:07.080 So your kids will talk to you.

00:51:08.620 I know I came on the podcast, I think it was about a year ago.

00:51:10.640 And we really talked about, I mean, we really dissected this topic around creating an

00:51:14.400 environment of psychological safety where your kids can tell you anything and everything.

00:51:19.120 And they know that they're not going to be blasted with, with shame, with blame, with,

00:51:23.780 with, uh, guilt or anything like that.

00:51:25.320 I'm not to say there's not consequences.

00:51:26.920 There's a, there's consequences.

00:51:28.220 And so, and a lot of times there's tough conversations, but there isn't like, what the hell's wrong

00:51:33.940 with you?

00:51:34.580 How dare you, you know, stuff like that.

00:51:37.840 So I think knowing how to create an environment of psychological safety over time is really,

00:51:42.180 really important.

00:51:43.120 But I also think here's what I've learned when it comes to talking to my son, what I have

00:51:49.060 found, and I've been doing this for years is I do a lot less telling and I do a lot more

00:51:54.220 asking.

00:51:55.160 So I ask a lot of questions, but I ask questions in a way where he doesn't feel interrogated.

00:52:01.300 He doesn't feel like he's being put to the fire.

00:52:03.980 It's a conversation around curiosity, right?

00:52:06.680 So some of these topics that we're talking about, and one of the topics that you talked

00:52:10.960 to him about, right?

00:52:12.280 I would say 90% of the time, it's all about me being curious.

00:52:17.140 And a lot of times I guide the questions in order, this sounds manipulative, but it's not

00:52:23.540 manipulative.

00:52:24.020 I guide the questions so he can go find his own solutions and not focus so much on the

00:52:32.400 problem.

00:52:32.800 So I'll give you a quick example of this.

00:52:35.080 Yesterday, he hit a snag with something in his class and he needed, he couldn't get the

00:52:40.820 answer and he couldn't get a hold of the professor.

00:52:43.740 So he comes upstairs and he's like, I don't know what to do.

00:52:46.280 I can't get a hold of the professor.

00:52:47.280 I need to do this, this, and this.

00:52:48.880 And my wife immediately jumped in and she's like, I can call the school.

00:52:51.460 I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

00:52:54.260 He's 19.

00:52:55.580 I looked at Ethan and I go, Ethan, I was like, if you lived on your own right now and we

00:52:59.400 weren't here, what would you do?

00:53:01.080 Like, what would you do to solve this problem?

00:53:03.580 And it's things like that, you know, it's like putting him in a position and he had to

00:53:07.180 think about it and we had to talk through it.

00:53:09.280 But then he came up with a solution and I'm like, there's your solution.

00:53:13.000 And then you can see like that confidence build and he'll be like, thank you so much for

00:53:17.720 talking to me.

00:53:18.340 And I'll be like, I really didn't do much except for asking some questions.

00:53:22.400 Yeah.

00:53:22.600 Yeah.

00:53:23.380 So, but there are times, right?

00:53:25.120 There are some times, but I, but I use these very, very rarely.

00:53:28.700 And I will tell you, I used one of them yesterday.

00:53:32.080 So yesterday I saw a few things, you know, I, throughout the week that were kind of concerning

00:53:36.780 me where I had to be on him about a few things.

00:53:40.180 I took him to go get, I took him to go get a coffee in the morning and I kind of laid

00:53:47.940 into him, you know, I was just like, Hey man, this is what I'm seeing.

00:53:52.420 I'm seeing this, I'm seeing this, I'm seeing this.

00:53:55.140 You told me that you want this, this, this, and this.

00:53:58.640 And like, I just like, and I could tell it was really uncomfortable for him, but I would

00:54:02.840 say the conversations that I normally have with them to answer your question, 90% of the

00:54:07.320 time I go with questions and I go with questions to get him thinking about what he's going to

00:54:11.900 do versus me telling him what to do.

00:54:13.860 And then there are some times I would say like the 10% where I'm like, you know what?

00:54:18.700 I kind of need to get your face a little bit on this one.

00:54:20.860 Cause you're not listening and it's not working and you keep doing the same thing or you're

00:54:25.620 not doing the things you need to be doing.

00:54:27.400 And those tend to be really effective because I pull those out only when I need them.

00:54:32.280 I mean, I think that's powerful.

00:54:33.580 You know, I think about it in the context of even public speaking where you see,

00:54:37.320 people who are, who will ask questions or come on with any credit without any credibility

00:54:41.780 and they'll assert themselves and you can see people are just not resonating.

00:54:46.340 It's like, you haven't earned the right to be able to give me advice at this point.

00:54:51.020 And I think by asking questions without any, um, judgment, it gives you some of that trust

00:55:01.820 and credibility with your children.

00:55:05.780 And, and look, even if it is more manipulation, is it worse than just telling them what to

00:55:11.940 do all the time?

00:55:12.920 And I don't actually think it's manipulation.

00:55:14.560 Cause when I think of the term manipulation, um, maybe it's semantics, but let's define it

00:55:21.320 the way I look at it is when you're trying to get something from somebody or get them to

00:55:26.640 do something that is at odds with their best interest.

00:55:29.820 I would consider that manipulation.

00:55:32.100 Um, anything else I would consider influence.

00:55:35.780 It's, it doesn't have quite the negative connotation.

00:55:38.620 You're influencing them to go down a certain path or move into a better direction.

00:55:43.300 And, you know, we could pull out Webster's and figure out what it really means, but I

00:55:46.500 think the concept is what's important.

00:55:48.140 I, you know, I love that.

00:55:51.680 That is true.

00:55:52.420 Cause that, that is influence, right?

00:55:53.980 That's thinking differently.

00:55:55.840 And it's not necessarily what I want you to do or putting you in a place where it's compromising

00:56:01.060 your integrity or doing something bad for you.

00:56:02.920 It's, it's leading you in the direction that you probably should be going as a kid.

00:56:07.960 Right.

00:56:08.820 I mean, we even see this with grown men.

00:56:10.360 I see it in our Facebook group all the time.

00:56:12.040 Somebody will ask a question, um, or, or, or solicit some feedback and everybody's like,

00:56:17.500 do this, do that, do this, do that.

00:56:18.760 I'm like, hold, hold on time out for a second.

00:56:22.080 And I might say to the guy, well, what do you think you should do?

00:56:25.680 Or what have you already tried?

00:56:27.120 Or what do you think you want to try?

00:56:28.900 And inevitably, whenever I ask that question, I'm always met with a couple of people who

00:56:32.840 come back and say, well, if you knew the answer to that, he wouldn't ask the question,

00:56:36.300 would he?

00:56:37.500 I'm like, bro, we're just trying to get people to do some thought exercises here.

00:56:42.940 Like be, be your own rescue, like solve your own problems, spend some time thinking about

00:56:51.200 things for just a little bit and brainstorm what you might do or what might work or what

00:56:56.740 would happen if you did this versus what would happen if you did that.

00:57:00.940 And man, I honestly believe if you let kids come to their own conclusions, not only are

00:57:06.960 they going to come up with really good answers, they're going to come up with answers that they're

00:57:10.600 bought into, because if I tell my son, hey, do this, don't do that, go to this school,

00:57:15.880 follow this pursuit, date this girl, don't date that girl, he's not going to buy into any

00:57:20.800 of that.

00:57:21.400 But if he comes up with the answers, he's bought into those things.

00:57:25.960 And there it is.

00:57:27.340 That is it right there.

00:57:29.120 I mean, that's why I love to ask questions.

00:57:33.840 It's because, and here's the, I can't even tell you, man, how many times I have asked questions

00:57:40.380 because I wanted to guide my kid to a solution that I was thinking of.

00:57:45.100 And then they came up with a solution that was way better than what I was ever thinking.

00:57:49.660 And you're just like surprised by it.

00:57:51.220 Like I, that even happened to my 11 year old, like a couple of weeks ago, we were at, he,

00:57:55.460 he had to do some assignment and, um, he, he wasn't exactly sure how he was going to get

00:58:01.340 it done.

00:58:02.060 And I was like, oh, he could do this, he could do this and do this, get it done.

00:58:04.740 And, and then through a series of questions, he actually came up with an idea and I was

00:58:08.360 like, that is way better than I thought.

00:58:10.400 So, yeah, I mean, a lot of times they'll, they'll shock you and they'll come up with

00:58:14.200 better ideas than what we had.

00:58:16.760 Yeah.

00:58:17.040 I had a guy in our iron council the other day, reach out and, and he was upset about

00:58:21.460 some things that were taking place.

00:58:22.720 And I said, hold, this is going to be fine.

00:58:24.540 First, let me know.

00:58:25.320 Let me let you know.

00:58:26.200 This is going to be fine.

00:58:27.140 Everything's going to be taken care of.

00:58:28.360 It's not going to be a big deal.

00:58:29.420 We're going to get it figured out.

00:58:30.200 He's like, I don't know.

00:58:30.780 I don't see how I'm like, I don't either right now, but trust me, it's going to be fine.

00:58:35.740 It's going to be, let's go to the drawing board.

00:58:38.220 Let's create some solutions.

00:58:39.940 Let's take a step back, look at it from a different angle within an hour.

00:58:43.660 And I didn't even know the answer, but within an hour, he was messaging me with multiple

00:58:48.440 ways to handle the situation in very powerful ways that I had not considered myself.

00:58:54.540 And I think he impressed himself.

00:58:56.780 He came up with the solutions.

00:58:58.560 Everything got resolved.

00:58:59.680 And here we are driving on, but man, it's amazing how quickly we want to rush in and

00:59:04.860 rescue everybody and play, play the superhero.

00:59:07.840 I think it's arrogance.

00:59:08.920 It's ego.

00:59:09.780 It's how can I fix this versus let other people fix their own problems.

00:59:15.240 And here's the crazy thing too.

00:59:17.900 You're right.

00:59:18.580 We do that.

00:59:19.340 And I think we do that because we were like, well, I want to be the one to like help them.

00:59:23.040 Like if you're a dad, you're like, I want to be the one to help them.

00:59:25.360 I want to give them that advice, you know, and they take it and run with it.

00:59:27.780 But the thing, the funny thing is, is that if you ask them questions and they come up

00:59:33.380 with it, they'll look at you and be like, thank you so much for talking to me.

00:59:36.800 And you're sitting there like, I didn't really do anything.

00:59:39.560 Like you solve this.

00:59:41.220 I asked you a few questions.

00:59:42.860 You did this.

00:59:43.800 Right.

00:59:44.160 But they still give like, you know, the, the, the accolades some way to the person who

00:59:49.360 guided them through the process, even though they're the ones who came up with the solution.

00:59:52.140 And all the while, sometimes we're sitting there thinking like, dude, you came up with

00:59:54.680 a way better solution than what I was even thinking.

00:59:56.440 So you're ahead of the game.

00:59:59.060 Well, it's like that adage.

01:00:00.380 People will never remember what you said, but they'll always remember how you made them

01:00:04.760 feel.

01:00:05.980 Yep.

01:00:06.640 And if you empower them, they're going to feel good about that relationship.

01:00:10.580 So true.

01:00:11.260 How do you think some of these concepts change when it comes to single fatherhood?

01:00:17.680 You know, there's a lot of guys out there, myself included, who have gone through a divorce

01:00:21.060 and have children and, you know, maybe the mom's on the same page.

01:00:25.220 Maybe she's on a completely different page.

01:00:27.460 How do you see this changing when it comes to a man who's trying to raise kids on his own

01:00:33.160 or potentially at odds with his ex-wife, the mother of his children?

01:00:39.240 You know, this is a question that I, unfortunately, I can't answer from direct experience, right?

01:00:47.780 That's not unfortunate.

01:00:48.680 That's actually a fortunate thing.

01:00:50.400 I just want to be clear about that.

01:00:52.220 Very true.

01:00:53.240 Very true.

01:00:54.600 But, you know, first of all, I think you need to probably just settle in and be okay with

01:01:00.480 the reality of you and their mom probably won't see eye to eye on everything.

01:01:04.620 And that's really quite okay, right?

01:01:07.340 It's really just being able to, well, where can I speak in to my son and daughter?

01:01:12.700 Like, where do we have common ground?

01:01:14.500 Like, where can I, you know, create more of a deep relationship with them, right?

01:01:20.360 And maybe it's not necessarily aligning everything that they align with with their mom,

01:01:24.860 but what do you align with them on, right?

01:01:26.960 And it's really getting clear on that versus, you know, it's like, because, yeah, it's like

01:01:31.200 in a situation like that, it can be complicated.

01:01:33.840 It can be confusing.

01:01:35.340 And alignment is something that's a real challenge.

01:01:39.040 But I think one of the most powerful things that a single dad can do or raising kids with,

01:01:43.500 you know, in that type of situation is to find that common ground with that kid and to have

01:01:50.080 their own versus like, instead of the family thing or the three of us thing, it's this you

01:01:54.500 and I thing.

01:01:57.180 Yeah, it's tough.

01:01:58.180 I mean, I'm navigating that on my own currently trying to figure that out and it can be a

01:02:03.580 challenge, but I also think it's, I mean, obviously it's a worthy challenge.

01:02:09.360 It's one that needs to be taken care of and shouldered, but it can be tough at times when

01:02:14.860 there's two conflicting ideas on one particular subject.

01:02:19.680 I agree with that, especially on one particular subject, I think, but where a dad can probably

01:02:24.800 play a powerful role and maybe, maybe I can explain this through something that happened

01:02:29.920 in our house, even though Jess and I are still together.

01:02:33.060 So my 17 year old and her are very tight.

01:02:36.740 Like they're like, they're, they're both very similar in personality.

01:02:41.580 He's got a relationship with her.

01:02:43.300 That's like, it's like unbreakable.

01:02:45.560 Like, it's funny.

01:02:46.460 He's like this savage monster on the football field, but he loves his mom more than anything.

01:02:53.640 And he hugs her every day.

01:02:55.000 They talk all the time.

01:02:56.240 Like he's like this giant monster of a kid, but just has this tight relationship with his

01:03:01.880 mom.

01:03:02.160 And I'll be very honest.

01:03:04.320 I was like, you know, when, when, um, so I was in, I was in Utah in, in June and, um,

01:03:11.820 I had a five hour flight and I wrote him a letter because I thought to myself, I was like, you

01:03:17.460 know, my son only has one more year here and just kind of paint the picture.

01:03:20.720 I was like, they've got this super tight relationship.

01:03:23.140 And like, I'm on the sidelines.

01:03:24.540 Like, I don't really feel like I have nearly the connection with this kid that I thought

01:03:28.980 I did.

01:03:29.360 I'm, I'm same thing that we're talking about today.

01:03:30.980 I'm like, I'm struggling to find common ground with him.

01:03:34.260 And our common ground is fitness.

01:03:36.420 It's anything that has to do with like lifting heavy things or exercising or fishing or hunting

01:03:43.700 and that kind of thing.

01:03:44.460 But really it's, unless it's like those sort of manly activities, like I don't have that

01:03:50.100 tight bond that he does with his mom.

01:03:51.820 So I wrote him this letter when I was on that flight and it basically, I poured my heart

01:03:56.760 out to the kid, Ryan.

01:03:57.800 I was like, you know, Hey, and I didn't compare his mom's relationship to ours, but I basically

01:04:02.900 told him the whole crux of the entire thing of the letter was like, you're here for another

01:04:08.280 year.

01:04:09.320 And man, I want in, like, I, I want this super deep connection with you because I only got

01:04:16.880 a year left with you.

01:04:17.680 And then you're away, then you're five and a half hours away from this house in college,

01:04:20.600 at university of Arkansas.

01:04:21.600 I was like, I'm not going to see you that often.

01:04:23.900 So like I poured my heart out and I was, and, and at the end of the, at the end of the letter,

01:04:27.800 man, I actually asked him questions.

01:04:29.280 I was like, I just need to know this.

01:04:30.900 Like, and I just need you to be honest with me and it's, you're not in trouble.

01:04:34.780 I just need to know this information.

01:04:35.920 I said, have I ever done anything that has hurt our relationship that you just don't feel

01:04:41.160 a connection to me or close to me?

01:04:43.260 Second question was along the lines of like, is there anything that I could be doing better

01:04:47.580 as your dad to create a connection that I just don't know, or I just don't see?

01:04:52.240 And so it was like four different questions.

01:04:54.120 And then on father's day in June, he wrote me a letter back.

01:04:58.140 And I got to tell you, I was amazed at the level of emotional intelligence that this kid

01:05:03.220 had because he, he pointed out all these different things that quite frankly, I didn't

01:05:06.880 see, but he was the one that pointed out like this common ground that I'm talking about.

01:05:11.360 And he's like, you know, Hey, you know, I do feel connected to you.

01:05:16.380 Like you are my go-to for a lot of things.

01:05:18.440 He's like, I go to mom for like affection, you know, warmth, you know, for like, if I,

01:05:24.960 if I have something really, really like on my heart that I need to talk about, like that's

01:05:28.700 maybe about my girlfriend or something like that.

01:05:30.900 He's like, but I go to you for life advice.

01:05:34.860 I go to you when like, I, I need help with one of my guy friends.

01:05:39.260 I go to you when like, I'm exhausted and I'm stressed out and I'm overwhelmed.

01:05:43.640 And I do not know what to do next.

01:05:46.360 And you're also like the dad that's taught me how to hunt and fish and do all this other

01:05:50.500 stuff.

01:05:50.860 He's like, so while our connection might be different, it's not better or worse.

01:05:56.640 Like I just go to you for these things.

01:05:58.340 And I was like, all this stuff I'm sitting here thinking like, there's the common ground

01:06:02.680 right there.

01:06:03.320 It's like, how do I go capitalize and create more depth in those common ground areas and not

01:06:08.040 try to go reinvent something that quite frankly, we just don't have, but he has with his mom.

01:06:12.300 So I think, um, he was the one who identified that for our relationship though.

01:06:16.280 I didn't do it for us.

01:06:17.880 He did it.

01:06:18.380 So I thought that was really cool.

01:06:19.860 Yeah.

01:06:20.040 It's pretty amazing when you see your kids step up that way and teach you, you know, we

01:06:25.260 always think we're teaching them, but they teach us a lot of the times more often than

01:06:29.340 I think so.

01:06:30.700 Well, Larry, how do we connect with you, man?

01:06:32.300 How do we learn more about what you're up to?

01:06:34.020 Obviously you've got the book coming out.

01:06:36.180 Um, you've got your own podcast and movement and you know, a, a younger, more immature version

01:06:43.080 of me might feel a little bit more intimidated by that where we think, ah, we're competitors,

01:06:48.320 but I've, I don't know, man, with you, I've never really felt like that.

01:06:51.460 I felt like there's a symbiotic relationship or nature between what we do.

01:06:56.620 And some guys are going to resonate with you and some guys are going to resonate with me.

01:07:00.260 But man, if we can join forces on events, like we've done in the past and podcasts like

01:07:04.840 this, I'm all about it, man, but I'm here to support you.

01:07:07.900 So how can the guys find you?

01:07:10.560 I feel the same way, man.

01:07:12.000 I, um, I'll admit, I think it was probably in the first few years of our friendship.

01:07:16.400 I really looked at us as competitors and I would say over the past five years, that's

01:07:20.840 changed.

01:07:21.240 And when we did the forge, it really changed like that.

01:07:23.860 Actually it was before it was probably a year or two before the forge is when you and

01:07:27.680 I first started talking on a regular basis.

01:07:30.600 And then I just started thinking, I was like, how many billions of men are out there?

01:07:34.400 Like, like we can't even possibly serve them all.

01:07:37.920 If there was like a hundred thousand Ryan's and a hundred thousand me.

01:07:41.040 Right.

01:07:41.360 So it's just like, there's enough guys out there for us to help.

01:07:44.640 Like we're, we're good.

01:07:45.860 But I appreciate you saying that.

01:07:47.580 Um, I would say, you know, the biggest thing right now is the book is coming out September

01:07:51.220 16th, um, 2025.

01:07:53.220 Um, I have a pre-order that people can go pre-order the book.

01:07:57.320 If you guys go to the dad edge.com forward slash legendary book, again, the dad edge.com

01:08:01.720 forward slash legendary book.

01:08:03.420 What I'm doing there is if you buy the book, if you pre-order the book for 28 bucks, I'm

01:08:08.180 giving everyone a free access to two courses that I created.

01:08:12.200 One course is called creating more patients.

01:08:14.460 It just basically helps you be a more patient dad, six skills to teach you to be more resilient,

01:08:19.080 more responsive and less reactive as a dad.

01:08:21.100 And so creating more patients is one.

01:08:23.140 Um, the other course that I have is creating an extraordinary marriage through elevated

01:08:26.520 communication, connection, intimacy.

01:08:28.080 In that course, I teach you 11 skills on how to better communicate with your wife, how to

01:08:31.720 connect with her more, how to attract her back to you instead of chase her and how to

01:08:35.840 build more intimacy in your marriage and not just be parents.

01:08:39.400 So each one of those courses sell for 500 bucks.

01:08:41.740 But if you, if you pre-order the book for 28 bucks, you'll get immediate access to that.

01:08:45.940 I'm not, I'm not able to send out the books until probably the beginning of October,

01:08:49.540 but I figure if someone's nice enough to pre-order my book, the least I can do is give them access

01:08:53.820 to information right away.

01:08:55.260 That's actually going to be in the book.

01:08:57.060 Yeah.

01:08:57.680 Yeah.

01:08:57.940 Well, I've gone through your courses.

01:08:59.400 I've seen your programs.

01:09:00.360 I've seen you speak.

01:09:01.200 I've seen what's all about.

01:09:02.200 And I can attest guys, if you're listening that, uh, you're going to get some valuable,

01:09:06.320 valuable wisdom out of it.

01:09:07.520 Larry, I appreciate you, brother, more than even this podcast on a personal, just appreciate

01:09:11.100 our friendship.

01:09:12.400 And, uh, I'm going to have to stay on top of my game.

01:09:14.560 Cause I know you're coming for me next year when we do the forge.

01:09:17.680 So I'm going to have to stay on top of it.

01:09:19.560 So I don't become the one that's injured next year, but, uh, hopefully neither one of us

01:09:23.140 do.

01:09:23.940 And, uh, we'll see how it goes though.

01:09:26.660 I hear you, man.

01:09:27.660 I'm, I am so excited.

01:09:28.860 And like I said, if, if any of the listeners, I mean, I would love to direct them over to

01:09:33.540 the men's forge landing page too, so they can get more information there.

01:09:36.420 Yeah.

01:09:37.100 So yeah, it's, uh, it's open now, right?

01:09:39.500 Yeah.

01:09:39.660 The men's forge.com it's, it's open for enrollment.

01:09:42.180 And I think we've probably got, uh, 40, 50% already enrolled based on what we, and it's

01:09:48.660 not till next year.

01:09:49.480 So we haven't even promoted it.

01:09:50.960 It's going to sell out, man.

01:09:51.840 I'm excited about it.

01:09:53.420 I am too.

01:09:54.240 Like, seriously, you guys, um, I I'll tell you, man, the forge this past year is my favorite

01:10:00.000 event.

01:10:00.520 It was like the perfect combination of education and, and, and, and play time and competing.

01:10:06.620 It was, it was, it was, it was, I mean, up until the last hour, it was awesome.

01:10:12.100 Up until like I broke in half.

01:10:13.840 It was awesome.

01:10:14.460 We're going to sit you on the bench the last hour or two of next year's event.

01:10:18.180 You can participate in 99% of it and then Larry's out.

01:10:21.580 So that's how I'll watch.

01:10:25.720 Brother, I appreciate you, man.

01:10:26.860 Thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

01:10:29.400 Appreciate you, brother.

01:10:33.120 All right, guys, Mr. Larry Hagner, a good friend of mine.

01:10:35.900 And now you know why, uh, we've broken bread together.

01:10:38.700 We've done events together.

01:10:40.380 Uh, we've suffered and struggled together.

01:10:42.880 We've celebrated our victories.

01:10:44.860 We've consulted each other in hardship and struggle.

01:10:49.140 And, uh, this is a man who's been there for me when very few people were, and I would be

01:10:53.980 there for him if he needed it for me.

01:10:56.240 So I think not only should you strive to have relationships like the one I have with Larry,

01:11:01.000 but you ought to listen to the information that he's sharing, especially if you're a

01:11:05.000 father or you want to become a father in the near future, check out his book, The Pursuit

01:11:10.020 of Legendary Fatherhood.

01:11:12.280 Also check out our course coming up, Divorce Not Death.

01:11:16.020 And, uh, you've got your marching orders for today.

01:11:18.400 My goal is to help you be a better man.

01:11:19.920 My goal is to help me become a better man.

01:11:21.600 And I hope through this podcast, we're filling both of those missions.

01:11:25.680 Guys, we'll be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

01:11:28.700 Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

01:11:36.180 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:11:39.180 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:11:43.180 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

01:11:51.600 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man.

Order of Man - September 02, 2025

LARRY HAGNER ｜ The "Dad Drift" and How to Beat It

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