Order of Man - Lead Yourself Before Leading Others

00:00:00.000 Most men are infatuated with leading others in some capacity. I get it. I believe that the

00:00:05.400 capacity and desire to lead is hardwired into our DNA. But that said, too many men want to lead

00:00:10.820 others without effectively leading themselves. Today, I'm joined by former Navy SEAL and New

00:00:16.000 York Times bestselling author Leif Babin to talk about recognizing excuses that you craft for

00:00:21.080 yourself, why brutally honest assessments are crucial, how to build leadership capital with

00:00:26.940 others, and of course, how to best lead yourself before leading others. You're a man of action.

00:00:32.380 You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks

00:00:37.340 you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated,

00:00:43.540 rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become

00:00:50.120 at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:55.480 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the

00:00:59.880 founder of this podcast and this movement, The Order of Man. I want to welcome you, whether

00:01:03.420 you're returning or whether you're new. This is a show about becoming a better man. So

00:01:07.540 if you want to become a more effective and loving, caring, connected father and husband

00:01:13.380 and business owner and community leader, then we've got the tools and the guidance and the

00:01:17.320 resources and, of course, the conversations, right? The conversations in this podcast with other

00:01:21.720 incredible men. Of course, today is no exception. We've had guys like Jocko Willink, Andy Frisilla,

00:01:26.960 Grant Cardone, Tim Kennedy, Dakota Meyer, and, of course, Leif Babin back on the show today to

00:01:31.980 revisit some of these leadership principles and ideas. Before I get into the show, though,

00:01:37.400 let me make a quick mention of my friends over at Origin. They've sent me some new stuff,

00:01:43.360 including their Discipline Go, which I believe is either out or will be coming out soon. Of course,

00:01:49.440 I've got all their Mulk products. I use their Super Krill, the Joint Warfare. This is all Jocko's

00:01:55.360 nutritional lineup that they handle over there at Origin. And then I've got their lifestyle apparel.

00:02:00.480 They're coming out with some new denim, which I'm really excited to get my hands on or my legs,

00:02:04.120 I should say. And then one of the things that Pete and Brian told me about is they're coming out

00:02:08.580 with some new boots, which I think they'll have some prototypes in January of 2019. So I'm going to get

00:02:16.720 my feet on a pair of those and let you know how those turn out. But guys, these guys are making

00:02:21.300 everything in America, bringing American manufacturing back. It's a pretty incredible

00:02:25.900 operation. So if you're interested in the supplemental lineup with Jocko, or you're

00:02:30.720 interested in the denim or the hoodies or beanies or Brazilian jiu-jitsu geese, then head to

00:02:35.840 originmain.com. Originmain.com and use the code ORDER, O-R-D-E-R, at checkout for a 10% discount.

00:02:43.740 All right, go check that out. You can do that after the show, but for now, listen in because we

00:02:48.540 have got a very, very powerful repeat guest on the show, Mr. Leif Babin. I spent some time with

00:02:53.520 him earlier in the year at a jiu-jitsu camp. In fact, that was at origin and we got to connect a

00:02:59.260 little bit and get to know each other a little bit better. And man, I'm excited to have him back

00:03:02.480 on, on the show. He likely needs no introduction. I know a lot of you guys are familiar with Leif's

00:03:07.420 work. He's a former Navy SEAL and platoon commander for task unit bruiser. He is the recipient of the

00:03:13.600 silver star, two bronze stars and the purple heart. And then after retiring from the Navy,

00:03:18.920 he spent 13 years in the Navy. Nine is a SEAL. He went on to co-found Echelon Front with Jocko.

00:03:24.940 And then of course became a multi New York times bestselling author with his books,

00:03:29.220 extreme ownership, which 90% of you have read. And also, and more recently the dichotomy of

00:03:34.220 leadership, which 90% of you have probably read, but he now serves as the president and chief

00:03:39.000 operating officer for Echelon Front. They are working to serve businesses around the globe.

00:03:43.480 They teach them how to more effectively lead from the front, which of course is the topic of the

00:03:50.060 discussion today. So guys, get your notepads out if you can, if you can't, because you're running or

00:03:54.000 working out or whatever it may be, I get it, but get your notepads out. If you can take some notes,

00:03:58.080 this one's a powerful one. Leif, what's going on, man? Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:04:03.300 Great to be on here with you, Brian. Good to be back. It's been a while.

00:04:06.080 It is, man. It's good to have you back. And I know we've tried to make this work. We tried

00:04:09.000 to do it out at immersion camp. And I think that was right about the time. It seems like

00:04:13.000 you were about a week or two away from the launch of dichotomy. Is that right?

00:04:16.960 Yeah. Dichotomy leadership was just coming out. I would have loved to have sat down and done it

00:04:20.380 with you in person there, certainly. But we were in the big time crunch there, you know,

00:04:24.480 final edits and the book actually came out September 25th. So just the next month.

00:04:28.700 Man, I can't even imagine, you know, I released a book earlier this year and it's done well,

00:04:32.980 but I can't even imagine just the amount of chaos and your scheduling during the lead up and the

00:04:40.780 launch of the book. I just imagine it's insane for you guys.

00:04:43.980 It is insane, but you know what? It's awesome too. You know, you put in all that work and effort,

00:04:47.760 as you know, writing a book and you never know how it's going to be received. It's just great to put

00:04:52.160 your thoughts out there and particularly after, you know, success of extreme ownership. I mean,

00:04:55.640 it's tough to follow up on a book like that. A number one New York Times bestseller,

00:04:58.700 sold over a million copies. Jocko talked about on his podcast, you know, was we didn't want to write

00:05:03.580 Jaws 2, you know, some weak sequel that wasn't useful. I mean, the goal was to write a book that

00:05:08.400 was useful for leaders and we wanted to wait long enough until we actually had some good

00:05:11.820 information. And the reason we wrote this book, because it had, you know, it answered the questions

00:05:15.780 that we see so many leaders struggling with, you know, trying to find balance. So, you know,

00:05:19.380 it was awesome to be able to put it out there. And yeah, it's a little crazy times as you're

00:05:22.400 launching into media and trying to get things out for it. There's always kind of last minute

00:05:25.960 stuff that comes up, but I'm really appreciative of the reception from leaders. And many of them

00:05:30.280 have told me that they actually think this book is better than extreme ownership, which the goal

00:05:34.200 was to write a book that was useful for leaders that impacted their lives, personal and professional

00:05:38.840 lives. And, you know, if we've done that, then we accomplish our mission. I don't know if I would

00:05:42.700 say better necessarily. Like, I don't know if that's the term I would use, but I think it goes

00:05:46.420 deeper. I think it explores a little bit deeper, some concepts because here's what I think is I can

00:05:51.740 just imagine when you deliver the message of extreme ownership, that there's all kinds of

00:05:56.720 people out there that say, yeah, but yeah, but what about this? And yeah, but what about this?

00:06:00.940 And they come up with all these little exceptions. And I think that's what you guys have addressed

00:06:04.140 here is you're addressing those exceptions. Yes, you have to place the mission first, but you also

00:06:09.560 have to care about your people. And you have all these dichotomies that help answer that. Yeah,

00:06:13.680 but type question. That's a huge problem that we see with leaders, whether they're giving

00:06:17.500 themselves some excuse or saying the yeah, but to your point, or they're actually taking

00:06:22.300 things too far in one direction or the other. And I think that's, you know, we see a lot of that.

00:06:25.860 Hey, you know, if I were late for fiber, Jocko, this is what I do. And they would do it this way

00:06:30.700 without really understanding, like, no, actually you have to balance that. You can't go too far.

00:06:34.240 These dichotomies go on and on. Every one of the major points that we talked about, the principles

00:06:39.160 we relate in extreme ownership can be taken into too far in one direction. Cover and move,

00:06:44.060 for example, you got to work as a team. You got to help other people on the team.

00:06:47.860 Look out for each other. And it's not about you. It's about the mission. Yet you can go

00:06:50.880 too far when you start treading on people's toes and you start impacting them. I mean,

00:06:55.600 this happens in home life as well. We talk about cover move all the time. I want to help my wife

00:06:59.180 out and cover for her, let her do her thing, take the kids for when she needs to go do something and

00:07:04.000 cover for her where I can so that she can move as she does for me. And when I try to go too far one

00:07:08.780 direction or try to help her too much, or I see something that I think she needs to do,

00:07:13.020 and I'm trying to push her in that direction, instead of creating a better relationship of

00:07:17.400 mutual support, it makes it worse and creates frictions when she's like, hey,

00:07:21.840 you're treading on my toes here. I don't need you to do that. Take it easy. In any aspect of life,

00:07:25.880 I think these things are applicable.

00:07:26.760 How do you know when you've taken it too far? I mean, if you use that example of home,

00:07:30.520 I think if your wife's, it's probably pretty easy in some cases that you've taken it too far. But I

00:07:35.840 imagine there's a lot of cases where, I mean, you really wouldn't know. What does it look like to

00:07:41.160 actually understand that, oh, I need to rein this back in and try balancing this out a little bit

00:07:46.260 more? As we say in dichotomy of leadership, and we talked about this in the last chapter of

00:07:50.540 Extreme Ownership, where we introduced this concept, is the awareness that the dichotomy of

00:07:56.180 leadership exists, that there are these different dichotomies, and you have to balance between these

00:08:01.360 multiple forces that are pulling you in different directions. I think just the awareness of that is

00:08:05.860 very powerful for anyone. You've got to detach from the situation. And we talk about that all the

00:08:11.440 time, the importance of detachment, so that you can see what's actually developing. And if you think,

00:08:16.780 well, I know I have to cover move, or I know I have to be default aggressive, or I know that I

00:08:20.760 have to step up and be decisive as a leader. And yet, if you're aware, and you're detached,

00:08:25.160 and you can see, okay, you know what, I'm being too decisive. I'm making all the calls here,

00:08:29.360 and I actually need to be a follower in this situation. I need to let this person run with

00:08:32.640 that. Or, you know what, I'm trying to cover move and help this person out here, whether it's my

00:08:35.980 wife or someone else on my team or whoever, but I'm actually treading on their toes, and they're

00:08:40.800 getting annoyed with me, and this is causing more frictions. I need to back off. I need to

00:08:44.720 rebalance this thing. Or, you know, yeah, I need to be aggressive. I need to be proactive to solve

00:08:48.300 problems. And yet, you know what, I probably should take a step back here and think, have I mitigated

00:08:53.100 the risk that I can control? I don't want to be too aggressive. So I think just the awareness of

00:08:57.080 that is critical that it's there. And then when you're detached, you can see things as they develop,

00:09:02.500 be aware of them, you know, notice some red flags as people kind of bristled up or are pushed back

00:09:07.300 on you when you're trying to help them out. You realize, okay, I've gone too far in one direction.

00:09:10.800 I need to back off. You know, I think another thing that we run into as well is we lose sight at the

00:09:14.600 end result. We get down into the trenches, and we allow our emotions to get the better of us,

00:09:18.700 and things get challenging and struggling. And then we have our egos that we've got to check,

00:09:22.740 and we forget, oh, I've got this mission I've got to accomplish. Sometimes we get so consumed with

00:09:27.140 our egos and our emotions and everything else that we forget what we're actually trying to accomplish.

00:09:31.620 That's why detachment is so important, because what you're talking about is the opposite of

00:09:35.820 detachment, right? Instead of being detached, taking a step back, kind of observing from, you know,

00:09:40.920 from the high ground, you know, tactically, figuratively, just kind of seeing the bigger

00:09:45.160 picture, not being down in the details so much that you can't see the forest for the trees. And

00:09:49.700 to use that old saying there, but that's what happens. People get emotional, egos get involved.

00:09:54.660 Just was working with some leaders yesterday, had a lady saying like, well, what do you do about

00:09:58.660 working with someone with a big ego? You know, they just have a big ego. They have to be right all

00:10:02.840 the time. And, you know, look, you can't change them, but you can change you. And it sounds like the ego

00:10:06.880 you need to be worried about there is your own. That's the reality of it, right? I mean, but yet

00:10:10.680 she can't see that. And we all get it. I mean, I'm not trying to point fingers at her, but we all

00:10:15.260 have, we all make those mistakes. I've certainly done it and still do it all the time where you

00:10:20.120 realize, oh, you know what? My ego is getting in the way here. You know, I'm trying to accomplish a

00:10:24.640 mission and I forget about that mission because I'm now I've got to be right. I got to prove that I'm

00:10:28.180 right, or I'm not going to let that person, you know, be the one to make this call. And you're like,

00:10:32.420 listen, I actually don't care who makes the call. If I can get the boss, whether they're

00:10:36.120 egomaniac, whatever, if I can get them to think that it's their idea, great. I don't care who

00:10:41.220 gets credit because I just want to accomplish the mission. When you start thinking like that,

00:10:45.000 that's where you can detach and think, okay, cool. That person has a big ego. I can actually

00:10:49.300 use that ego as leverage to get them to do what we all need them to do. So we accomplish their

00:10:53.440 mission by, by making them think it's their idea, kind of planting the seeds to make that happen.

00:10:57.460 When you focus on the mission, you're going to get it done, just as you said. And I think that's

00:11:01.080 why detachment is so important because, you know, everything you just described getting sucked into the

00:11:05.340 details of things, losing focus on the mission, thinking that it's about you, your ego, you know,

00:11:10.340 your perspectives and kind of losing sight of the bigger picture. That's why you have to detach

00:11:14.640 because that's what happens if you're not detached. In that scenario you're talking about, I think the

00:11:19.340 reason that people would be hesitant to plant that seed or make it seem like it's somebody else's idea

00:11:24.320 is that, you know, they won't get the credit, right? Or they won't get recognized or they won't get the

00:11:28.400 promotion or the opportunity. And, and I think that's an ego thing as well, but I think that's why

00:11:33.120 people are so hesitant to prop up others because they're worried that they won't get quote unquote

00:11:38.340 theirs. Couldn't agree more with you. I think that's exactly right. Think about it though. I

00:11:43.020 mean, who do you have more respect and admiration for, you know, if you're working on a team, I mean,

00:11:46.660 think back to your military days or, you know, anywhere in the business world, is it the guy who's

00:11:51.360 tooting his own horn all the time, you know, and talking about how great he is and beating his chest

00:11:55.280 and talking about how awesome his team is, or is it actually the, the folks that are actually just

00:11:59.000 getting it done, giving credit to others who are just part of the team. I mean, in military

00:12:03.840 units, we talk about main effort and supporting effort and those big egos, like I have to be the

00:12:07.840 main effort all the time. We have so much respect for folks to say, Hey, I'm happy to be the

00:12:11.900 supporting effort. You guys are in a better position to actually go and execute this. So I'll

00:12:15.420 let this unit take care of it. We'll support them. As long as you accomplish a mission, that's what

00:12:19.020 matters. And you have tremendous respect in the long run and admiration for those folks. And they get

00:12:23.920 the credit. If a mission is accomplished, you're going to get the credit. Everyone is going to get

00:12:28.300 the credit. It's like we talked about in extreme ownership with cover move. When the team wins,

00:12:32.180 everybody wins. You got to realize you're playing the long game. And if you want credit for the hard

00:12:37.280 work that you're doing, people know, people know who's doing the work. People on the team know,

00:12:42.220 you know, I was just talking to a leader that we worked with for a while, who was, you know,

00:12:45.320 working with a boss who, who he was really struggling with. And I think it was a little

00:12:49.900 intimidated by him. He was having some issues with that. And in fact, he's the guy that we use as the

00:12:55.460 example in the leader and being a leader and a follower chapter. I had some conversation with

00:13:00.520 him. I was like, you're exactly like I was. You're struggling following, you know, just to explain

00:13:04.560 the situation that the boss had basically been critical of his team, you know, give him an

00:13:09.200 evaluation that he thought was unfairly critical. And that was going to affect their bonuses. So he

00:13:14.020 was going to go in there and look out for his team, push back against that boss and say, this is

00:13:17.920 wrong. This is the way it shouldn't have done. And, and I said, listen, are you telling me that

00:13:21.640 you're everything that he's telling you is false? Are there not things you can work on? Are there

00:13:25.960 not things that you can improve? And he actually admitted, no, absolutely. There were things that

00:13:29.240 he can improve and work on. So I was like, you need to accept that criticism, take ownership of

00:13:33.280 it, fix those problems. You're actually failing the team because you're not being a good follower.

00:13:38.280 You think you're being a good leader by looking out for your team, for the immediate tactical

00:13:41.380 objectives of getting them, you know, the bonus this time. But what are you doing in the long run?

00:13:46.060 You're alienating your boss. You're creating a frictional antagonistic relationship with your

00:13:49.900 boss, particularly if you try to go above his head, you know, to get that evaluation overturned.

00:13:54.980 What's that going to do for your team in the long run? You're going to hurt your team, right? It's

00:13:58.260 not going to help you. You're not going to get the resource you need. You're not going to get your

00:14:00.880 plans approved. You're certainly not going to get good bonus in the long run. So he detached. He took

00:14:05.260 a step back, put his ego in check. He went in there and said, boss, you're right. I'm sorry. I reacted

00:14:09.400 that way. Here's what we're doing to fix it. Over the long term, you know, six months, a year,

00:14:13.660 two years down the road. I mean, this guy was, he was running circles around all his other teams. His guys got greater bonuses

00:14:19.680 than everybody. They got all the recognition that they deserve by taking ownership of that,

00:14:24.400 creating a better relationship with their boss and realizing, you know, listen, it's not about me

00:14:28.280 and this immediate tactical goal. This is about the long-term fight that we're in, the strategic

00:14:32.440 victory. And eventually that guy was moved up the ranks above that boss, was promoted above that boss

00:14:39.160 that he was frustrated with because he became a good follower after we had that talk. So that's something

00:14:44.740 I saw in myself as well. I struggle with leaders that I thought were weak or, uh, it's a hard thing

00:14:49.980 to do, but in order to be a good leader, you have to be a good follower. And so I think to your

00:14:53.000 question, you got to recognize that you're playing the long game. You're playing a long game. You got

00:14:58.300 to think about the six months, year, two years, five years down the road, 10 years down the road,

00:15:03.300 where that's going to be. You don't need to go out and beat your own chest and give yourself all the

00:15:08.380 credit. You just need to work hard. You need to do your job and you accomplish the mission. You will

00:15:12.640 eventually get the credit. People are going to know who's making things happen. You're going to

00:15:16.580 get the credit you deserve. And it's always better to do it that way. Always better to have other

00:15:20.160 people praising you than you praising yourself. Yeah. It's a lot more powerful when it comes from

00:15:24.820 somebody else, for sure. I really like this idea of the long game, because if you look around in

00:15:28.760 society, everything that we do is all dictated by the short game, right? What can I get now?

00:15:33.700 Immediate instant gratification. We've got microwaves to heat up our food. We don't have to get out the

00:15:37.260 couch to change the channel. If we want to order something, we expect it within 24 hours. Like everything's the

00:15:42.540 short game. And so I think we've lost this idea and this art of being patient and letting things play

00:15:49.320 out the way that they're going to play out. And then just having some faith too, right? Having faith

00:15:53.300 that if you're doing the right things for the right reason, that over time it will play out. We run across

00:15:58.700 this a lot with regards to fitness. For example, I didn't lose 10 pounds this week. Like, man, you spent

00:16:04.240 the last decade in a series of habits and patterns and beliefs that have got you to where you are. And you

00:16:09.280 think you're going to lose that or, or change that in a matter of a week or two weeks or even six

00:16:13.260 months. Like you've got to be, you're delusional, man. You got to have some faith that if you do the

00:16:17.720 work for a long and sustained period of time, that it is going to work out. Yeah. Look, the older I get

00:16:22.720 Ryan, the more I realized like it's a whole lot harder to drop those pounds that you put on. I used

00:16:28.340 to be able to drop pretty quick, but it's a lot more of a battle now. And I think that's a fitness is a

00:16:33.220 great example. You know, diet and health is a great example. Instant gratification

00:16:36.740 gratification is generally going to lead to problematic things in the long run. If you're

00:16:41.880 thinking about whether, Oh, that, that ice cream is going to taste good now, or I'm going to eat,

00:16:45.700 you know, an extra cheeseburger now, or, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a little tired, so I'm going to sleep

00:16:49.920 in. I'm not going to work out now. Then over time, you're going to suffer the consequence of that.

00:16:54.480 And it's, so it's thinking about that long game and where you want to be six months or a year from

00:16:59.500 now or two years from now. And it's that disciplined effort over time. That's going to get you to,

00:17:03.540 to be able to accomplish those goals, to achieve your mission over time, you know,

00:17:07.280 your fitness goals, your dietary goals, your weight goals, whatever it is. And it's no different,

00:17:11.480 I think for leadership in any way, whether you're talking about your family, whether you're talking

00:17:15.100 about your, you know, in your community, whether you're talking about in your business, it's the

00:17:18.080 same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wrote something down here. I can't remember what triggered it,

00:17:22.460 but I had written down reflection. And I think there's something that you said where it made me think

00:17:27.460 that the people that we are trying to lead are a reflection upon us. You know, I look at a prime

00:17:33.820 example of this is my son, you know, my, my son and I, my oldest, I'm talking about now every once

00:17:38.140 in a while to get into little arguments or whatever they may be. And I just think to myself, man,

00:17:42.680 this kid's so stubborn. And then, and then I detach from the situation. Exactly. Exactly.

00:17:50.280 And so it just leads me to believe, you know, we have these guys and I've said it before,

00:17:53.600 like, Oh, my people won't do this. And the people I'm leading won't do this. I'm not working hard.

00:17:57.280 They're not showing up on time. And if I detach from the situation, what I realize is that everything

00:18:01.640 I'm expecting them to do, I may not be pulling my weight. And so it's just a reflection upon who I

00:18:07.060 am as a leader. What you're talking about is really the essence of extreme ownership. You know,

00:18:11.680 it's so easy to point fingers at everybody else. Well, they need to do this. And, you know,

00:18:16.600 my son needs to not be so argumentative or hardheaded. You know, this is, you know,

00:18:21.200 or my team needs to do this. They're not making things happen. That's human nature. It's human

00:18:25.180 nature for us to respond that way, to blame things on other people, to see, you know,

00:18:29.420 it's their problem and not my problem. And one of the most common issues that we see with leaders

00:18:33.340 are working with, one of the things I hear all the time with clients, all the time that we work

00:18:37.360 with in various businesses. And these are, some of these are huge corporations, small startups or,

00:18:41.840 you know, and everywhere in between in just about every industry that you can imagine.

00:18:45.160 But the common thing is my people aren't doing what I need them to do. You know,

00:18:48.900 I need them to step up and take ownership of stuff. I need them to take the initiative.

00:18:52.440 I need them to solve problems. It's all about them, them, them. I want you to come in and fix

00:18:57.080 my people and square them away. And so one of the scenarios, you know, that I always get a kick out

00:19:01.680 of is it's a real telling when the boss shows up late to a meeting. So let's say he's running 10 minutes,

00:19:07.580 15 minutes late, shows up to a meeting, walks in the room, all his team, you know, his department

00:19:12.200 heads, his leaders, his key leaders are just sitting there waiting for him. There are no pads out.

00:19:16.200 They've got their, their pins going and they're waiting for him. And you'll hear a leader like

00:19:20.480 that be like, well, that's frustrating. They should take ownership. They should make things happen.

00:19:23.820 And so, you know, the question we ask is, so what's going on there? You know, is it your people's

00:19:27.940 fault? Do they need to take the initiative? Do they need to be proactive? Or does that mean that

00:19:31.440 you're actually micromanaging them? Yeah, good point. And the answer is 100% you're micromanaging

00:19:36.700 them. That should be the biggest red flag in the world, the biggest slap across your face to say,

00:19:40.720 wow, this is my fault. I'm actually making all the decisions for them. So they're waiting for me to make all

00:19:46.100 decisions. Because what you want is a team that is, when you show up to that meeting,

00:19:50.920 they're like, hey boss, here's what we've done so far. We need your input on this issue right here,

00:19:54.680 but we solved this, this, this, and this. Here's what we're doing. That's what you want,

00:19:58.020 you know, from your leaders. Now, the dichotomy here is that you can go too far in that direction

00:20:01.900 where they've already cut out of the meeting and they've already done their thing. Or when the boss

00:20:06.280 shows up, they're just kind of joking around and not paying attention and not even including him in

00:20:10.980 any conversations or asking for his opinion or support and approval on things. So you can go too far.

00:20:16.020 And that's why you got to find that balance of the dichotomy. But what you have to do is recognize,

00:20:20.260 hey, listen, if your son's pushing back on things, if he's being argumentative, you need to look at

00:20:24.600 yourself first and think, okay, what am I doing to provoke that kind of behavior in him? Of course,

00:20:29.660 obviously there's a DNA aspect in that. And I got to remind myself of that too, because I've got

00:20:33.420 two extremely strong willed kids. My two and a half year old daughter, she threw something on the

00:20:39.220 floor and I said, don't do that again. You're going to get spanked. She came over to me and said,

00:20:42.640 I spank you daddy. And like, like slap me on the arm. I mean, she's serious. There's no,

00:20:47.780 this isn't like a joke. I was like, you don't spank me. That's not the way this goes. I was

00:20:52.820 trying to actually not to suppress laughter because it was hilarious. I'm trying to be stern,

00:20:57.400 but you realize this kid is just like me. She's hardheaded. She's strong willed. My son is just

00:21:03.060 the same way. And, and although my daughter is probably four or five times that, you know,

00:21:07.200 when it comes to like just the hardheadedness and strong will there, but they are a reflection of

00:21:12.000 me. But I also realized that even at a young age as a dad, if I'm just saying, don't do that,

00:21:18.100 because I said, don't do it. It's not effective. Yeah. You guys want to talk about this in the army

00:21:22.400 too, but in the Navy, it was rock scissors rank at former leadership that you do it. Cause I said,

00:21:27.540 so, cause I outrank you, you know, like rock, paper, scissors game. Sure. Play rock scissors rank.

00:21:31.680 I win every time. Go do it. Cause I said, it doesn't work. People try that rock scissors rank

00:21:37.140 and it doesn't work. You can maybe get someone to do something one time or two times, but as soon as

00:21:42.000 you're not standing over their shoulder, they're going to do whatever they want to do. And it's

00:21:45.760 no different for kids either. If you're going to say, Hey, don't do that, son, or you're going to

00:21:48.480 be punished to my daughter. Don't do that. Or you're going to be punished or, you know, or else,

00:21:52.480 or do it. Cause I said, so I find myself falling into those habits. Sometimes you realize,

00:21:56.540 you know what? No, they need to understand why they need to understand why I'm telling them not to do that.

00:22:01.320 And if they understand why there's a much greater probability, I'm not going to say they're going

00:22:04.600 to follow, you know, they're going to do what they're supposed to do every single time. Of

00:22:07.560 course not. Of course they're going to make mistakes. Of course they're going to, you know,

00:22:10.560 make bad decisions. If I can explain why to them, even at a very young age, like my kids are four

00:22:16.200 and two and a half, they understand it's a much higher probability of them actually saying,

00:22:20.400 you know what? Okay. Hey, listen, you got to hold my hands. We're crossing the street. Cause I don't

00:22:24.460 want you to get run over. You're small. And I don't want you to get smashed like that,

00:22:27.760 that roadkill that we just passed on the way here. I don't want that to happen to you.

00:22:31.080 And they kind of understand, okay, yeah, I don't want that to happen either. Let's hold your hand

00:22:34.960 rather than just do it. Cause I said so. And I think that's the more that we can do that as

00:22:38.680 leaders, fathers in the family, whether it's members of our community, whether it's in our

00:22:42.240 business team, sports, whatever you're doing. I mean, that's people understand why they're just

00:22:46.400 much more likely to do it. And I think you can actually, it keeps you from raising your voice,

00:22:50.720 right? It keeps you from getting angry. It keeps you from trying to, you know, be authoritarian and

00:22:54.840 actually explaining the reason why they need to do what you're telling them to do.

00:22:58.320 Do you think there's times also that you ought to just allow, I don't know if this is the right

00:23:01.900 term, but I think you'll understand is allow your people to crash and burn a little bit.

00:23:05.140 You know, I think for example, I'll go back to my kids. When my oldest was younger,

00:23:09.600 he wanted to touch the stove. I'm like, don't touch the stove. No, don't touch the stove. And

00:23:13.780 he just was so fascinated by the stove. And I told him over and over, don't do it. And he wouldn't do

00:23:18.460 it. I said, you'll get burned. He wouldn't do it. I'm like, fine, touch the stove. He touched it,

00:23:21.780 burned his finger and he's never touched it again. Obviously do people need to learn these

00:23:26.220 things the hard way sometimes? No question. It's one thing to have a, you know, a tiny little burn,

00:23:31.380 you know, that's going to immediately remove and you're standing right there. It's another thing

00:23:34.680 to have some horrible third degree burn that's going to, you know, cause issues. So I think

00:23:39.300 something Jocko talks about here is, is letting your kids brush up against the guardrails of failure.

00:23:45.020 And I think that's a great way to think about it. If you solve all your kids' problems, I think it's

00:23:49.200 one of the major issues in our society. If you solve all your kids' problems, then they're never

00:23:54.100 going to be able to solve problems themselves. You got to let them solve problems. I went from

00:23:57.980 a private school that I was going to, you know, an elementary school when I attended public school

00:24:02.360 and middle school. And all of a sudden I'm the new kid in this, in this public middle school,

00:24:07.080 you know, in a small town. I knew a lot of people, but I, you know, other people I didn't know.

00:24:11.040 And particularly the kids that were two or three years older than me and someone that were even older

00:24:14.220 than that, cause they got rolled back a few grades. And I remember kids bullying me,

00:24:18.320 pushing me around. And my dad, you know, I came home and my dad saying, son,

00:24:21.980 I taught you how to box. You solved that problem. I don't want to hear about it anymore.

00:24:26.660 I mean, it was, that's the way it was. People frown on that and take those things very seriously.

00:24:31.420 It's like, Hey man, you want to solve bullying problems. You teach people how to solve those

00:24:34.520 problems themselves. I didn't get bullied after that, you know, after the three older kids in the,

00:24:39.500 they were in eighth grade and a couple of them again were, you know, two grades ahead of that.

00:24:42.980 I should have been, I was in sixth grade and they cornered me in the bathroom trying to shove me

00:24:46.300 around. And I put one of those kids on his ass, a couple of jabs in the right hand of the face.

00:24:51.320 And it was, I never got bullied again after that. That was the end of it. So you got to let your

00:24:54.940 kids solve problems. As long as you're not letting them do something that's, you know,

00:24:58.160 going to be life altering or going to really endanger them. And I'm not going to let them

00:25:01.720 walk across the highway by themselves. Failure is the best teacher. It always is. I just talked

00:25:06.680 to a bunch of law enforcement officers at our roll call event that we had our, you know,

00:25:09.900 the leadership conference for first responders and military. And, and the question was asked about,

00:25:14.640 you know, should you train to failure? And the answer is hell yeah, you should train to failure.

00:25:18.760 You want to be overwhelmed. You want to be overrun. You want to have, take casualties in

00:25:23.820 training. So you understand what that's like. So you can deal with the situations to hopefully

00:25:27.680 try to prevent those situations from happening in reality. It's good for your kids to learn the

00:25:32.520 hard way. And that's a lesson that they're not going to forget. And obviously if you just prevent

00:25:36.820 it from being, don't put them in some situation that's, that's dangerous are going to be, you know,

00:25:41.240 really, uh, really a terrible situation. But you know, for those things, again, just brush up

00:25:45.880 against the guardrails of failure, like here's why you don't want to do that. This is why I'm

00:25:49.180 explaining to that. I like that you talked about training hard and training to failure. I think

00:25:53.120 there's this, uh, I think there's somewhat of a movement maybe where it's like, make things hard

00:25:57.560 on yourself just because. And I think what these people think sometimes is that life in general

00:26:02.220 should be hard. And I think what they're missing here is that you should, you should make training

00:26:06.240 hard, but then when you're actually performing, you're not going to throw up a bunch of

00:26:10.340 obstacles just to make it harder on yourself during performance. Right? Like I think that some

00:26:15.340 people think that life, all of life just has to be hard. And my, my thought is that

00:26:19.680 you train hard, prepare hard, get ready for these things. And then when you're actually tested with

00:26:24.660 a life situation, whether that's battle or a bid for a new, uh, business contract, you're not going

00:26:31.400 to have those barriers because you've prepared for them. It's not, the goal isn't to make life hard,

00:26:35.880 it's to prepare for those things that come up. Does that make sense?

00:26:38.240 I agree with you a hundred percent. Life is hard by nature. So you want, you're trying to make

00:26:42.400 life as easy as you possibly can make it so that you can survive those hardships. And, and, you

00:26:48.020 know, certainly I know, you know, from personal experience, how difficult real actual combat is,

00:26:53.000 you don't want to make that any harder than it has to be. You want to make it as easy as possible.

00:26:56.860 One of the things we always talked about the fair fight as kids and, you know, you kind of grew up in

00:27:01.720 the, I grew up in, as you did in the John Wayne movies and things like that, where you, you know,

00:27:05.940 the good guys always has the kind of the fair fight. There's an old saying, the SEAL teams has been

00:27:10.440 around since, uh, at least the Vietnam era, when the first, uh, SEALs were going into, into combat

00:27:16.420 in Vietnam, it's never fight fair. You don't want to set up a fair fight. And it's not fun to be in a

00:27:22.540 fair fight. You're in someone who's very evenly matched, whether you train jujitsu, whether you're

00:27:26.180 in a boxing match, whether you're in a bar brawl, whatever, it's going to be ugly. You know, you're

00:27:30.640 going to get beat up. You, you might, even if you ultimately win, might be one of those pyrrhic victories

00:27:35.160 where you, you expended so much energy or, or took so much damage that it's not much of a victory at

00:27:40.160 all. And it could ultimately, uh, you know, set you back, prevent you from training for weeks or

00:27:44.820 whatever, as you recover. So you want to set up the unfair fight. You want to try to hit the enemy

00:27:49.400 where they're least expecting it. You want to try to give yourself the greatest advantage possible.

00:27:53.320 I think you should always do that. And that's what, that's what training for us is all about.

00:27:57.520 Our goal, when Jocko was running training for the West Coast SEAL teams, and I was, when I was running

00:28:02.160 training for junior officers that were graduating from BUDS, our basic training, our SEAL basic training

00:28:07.020 pipeline, our goal was always to make training harder than actual combat. I want training to

00:28:13.100 be harder than actual combat. I want training to be so hard that when people get to actual combat,

00:28:17.400 it's easy. Obviously we know there's, there's limitations in training that there's situations

00:28:22.120 you can encounter in combat that are horrific and are going to be way harder than actual training

00:28:26.660 could ever be. And hopefully those guys don't have to be in those situations and they can prevent

00:28:30.900 that from happening because we made training so hard. The recognition of just how easily a blue on blue

00:28:36.600 you know, friendly fire situation can happen. If you understand how easily that can happen,

00:28:41.220 particularly in the dark of night or night vision, when you got different units moving around out

00:28:44.980 there and role players moving around, if you recognize how easily that can happen, then you're

00:28:49.600 going to take the tremendous steps necessary to mitigate the risk of that happening. The probability

00:28:53.180 of it happening on the actual battlefield is much less as a result. I mean, those are the kinds of

00:28:57.200 things that, that we tried to set up in training. And in many cases, we'd have guys come back from

00:29:02.020 training and say, Hey, you know, combat was easy because training was so hard. That was the goal.

00:29:07.520 That's what you want. I think it's no different in life. You want to set up a situation where

00:29:10.640 that's why in the gym for physical workouts so that you can do the things that you need to do

00:29:16.340 in life without injuring yourself, without causing issues for yourself, you know, health-wise,

00:29:20.860 you want to train hard so you can prepare and make life as easy as possible.

00:29:24.620 Gentlemen, let me tell you about one of the best investments that you can make as we roll

00:29:31.920 into the new year. It's called the iron council. I know a lot of you have heard of it, but once you

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00:29:47.960 take their lives to the next level. And I say it's an investment because what you put in the amount

00:29:52.680 of effort and resources that you put in will be returned to you. If you're willing to use the

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00:30:02.900 willing to use the tools. They believe that if they invest a few bucks that they're, I don't know,

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00:30:17.460 results. We simply light the path and we show you the way the rest is on you. So if you're

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00:30:27.140 then join us. It's the perfect place for you. It's where you're meant to be.

00:30:29.980 Head to order of man.com slash iron council. Again, order of man.com slash iron council

00:30:35.060 to lock in your seat. Again, do that after the show, but for now we'll get back to my,

00:30:39.240 my conversation with Leif. I like this idea of the unfair fight because I think what a lot of people

00:30:45.700 will say or even act according to this belief that, Oh, life's not fair. That somehow Ryan or Leif or

00:30:51.260 whoever has an advantage over the other individual. And you know what? That's probably

00:30:55.020 true. Like there's probably something that you have in your personality or skillset that makes

00:31:00.300 you better at something than me and vice versa. And so what people do is they put themselves as

00:31:04.880 the victim, right? Like, Oh, Leif has something that I don't have. So he's the fairness is skewed

00:31:09.500 towards, towards him. Well, but that also means that you have something that I don't have and there's

00:31:15.220 an unfair advantage that you have. So you might as well capitalize on that as well. I think we sell

00:31:19.660 ourselves short when we think that, that the odds are stacked in somebody else's favor and we

00:31:23.800 overlook what unique gifts and talents and abilities that we have that we can bring to the

00:31:27.480 table. That's exactly right. I mean, you're just making an excuse for yourself. All it is an excuse

00:31:32.080 when you think, well, they had that person hasn't easier than me, or they had a better team than me.

00:31:36.500 That's why they outperform me or, you know, their situations, uh, somehow easier. It's harder for me

00:31:41.940 than it is for other people. And frankly, that's why I think a lot of vets struggle, you know,

00:31:46.380 when they come back and plug into, uh, the civilian world where you think, well, other people just

00:31:51.720 can't understand what I've been through. And while there are a lot of civilians out there that will

00:31:55.620 never fully understand that, you know, man, there's a lot of other vets have probably been

00:31:58.920 to a lot worse as well. It's really easy to go down that path when you start thinking, Oh man,

00:32:03.600 I've been through this, or this has been so tough for me. And you think, man, there's,

00:32:06.620 there's other people that have it, you know, so hard. One of the things that really stuck out for me,

00:32:11.420 and I've talked about this with musters and other leadership, uh, uh, discussions that we've had.

00:32:17.020 I tore my ACL about two months after I left the Navy, you know, I'd gone nine years in the SEAL

00:32:22.300 teams, no, you know, 13 years in the Navy, no knee problems. And I was on an elk hunt with my dad up

00:32:27.420 in the mountains of, uh, New Mexico. Uh, I made a bad shot on an elk after, you know, some several days

00:32:33.660 of hard hunting and I was just absolutely distraught about it. And, uh, we were on horseback trying to get

00:32:38.520 out of the, this big mountain pass and I was getting up on a big pack horse, really high horse.

00:32:44.020 I couldn't get my foot into the stirrup. I was frustrated. And I ended up just trying to hoist

00:32:49.000 myself up there with my bow in my hand. As I was moving around, that horse kept bump me and was

00:32:54.440 moving. And I just twisted on my, on my knee and just popped my ACL. And it was just, it was

00:32:59.700 catastrophic for me. I'm a guy that likes to work out, that stays active all the time. And I just got

00:33:04.440 married, just left the Navy trying to start a new life. And I just moved to New York city of all

00:33:09.520 places, which is probably the worst place to be, you know, hopping around on crutches in the world

00:33:13.420 because you got to walk everywhere. And it was, uh, it was horrible. I was couch ridden. I was

00:33:18.380 feeling sorry for myself, you know, and couldn't train. I was, I was just pissed off at the world.

00:33:24.040 One of my really good buddies who'd lost both legs in Afghanistan was coming in to run the Marine

00:33:28.940 Corps marathon. And I was going to run, I'm sorry, the, uh, the New York city marathon.

00:33:32.320 Uh, he was coming into New York city to run the New York city marathon, double amputee,

00:33:36.920 you know, both legs above the knee. He was going to hand cycle the first half of it and then run

00:33:41.240 the next half of it. And this guy's an extraordinary athlete. I was like, I was just going to run the

00:33:44.720 last half of it with him. And I couldn't do it now because I didn't have an ACL and I was, uh,

00:33:49.580 laid up on the couch. And so at that point he came in, I was still crutching around. We went,

00:33:53.720 we went out and cheered him on, but I went to meet him the night before he was there with a bunch of

00:33:58.900 guys from Walter Reed, you know, a whole bunch of wounded warriors from, from every service

00:34:02.040 there. And, and I walk in and I'm on crutches. I've been feeling sorry for myself for weeks

00:34:05.780 and I walk in there and there's 50 or 60 wounded warriors, you know, at least single amputees,

00:34:11.400 if not double amputees that are there to participate in the marathon, either hand cycle it or run it.

00:34:16.380 You know, so many of those guys were like, Hey, what happened to you? I was like a ACL tear,

00:34:20.260 like, man, cut that thing off. Yeah. They're probably thinking, man, I wish that was the extent of my

00:34:25.460 problems. Exactly. And it just slapped me across the face to say, look at this, man, I'm feeling sorry for

00:34:30.700 myself. I'm making excuses about, well, I can't do this or that now. And my ACL will be fully

00:34:36.520 recovered. I'll be able to, you know, return to full activity. These guys are never going to get

00:34:40.280 their legs back. Here I am feeling sorry for myself. These guys aren't feeling sorry for

00:34:44.280 themselves. They're out here making things happen. You know, what the hell am I doing? So that's the

00:34:48.400 kind of thing. I think it was just, just a rude awakening. You can't fall into that trap of like,

00:34:53.420 it's harder for me than everybody else. Cause there's always somebody out there

00:34:56.320 that's got it way harder than you. So don't give yourself that excuse.

00:35:00.580 That perspective is, is extremely powerful. And you know, that gives you an advantage too. I mean,

00:35:05.820 those trials and those hardships, like Jocko says, good, right? Those hardships give you a

00:35:10.080 challenge and they fortify you against other things that are eventually going to come up in

00:35:12.820 your life. So it's preparing you in a way when we go through those difficult situations. It also,

00:35:17.500 the other thing it does is it humbles you, which I think is, is something that's much needed in a lot

00:35:22.420 of us, myself included. And that's one of the premises of what you guys talk about as well as

00:35:26.900 being humble, right? And showing humility in your leadership style. Can you talk a little bit about

00:35:31.460 the balance between being humble, but not being so passive in your approach to leadership?

00:35:38.440 Got to be humble. Humility is the most important quality in a leader. We get asked that all the time.

00:35:43.200 Most important quality in a leader is humility because you've got to, you've got to be able to look in

00:35:48.040 the mirror and have that brutally honest assessment of yourself, of your team, of the mission, you know,

00:35:53.440 of the strategy that you've implemented. That is all important to helping you better yourself all

00:35:58.600 the time. And yet you can be too humble as well. That's this dichotomy. And we wrote that chapter

00:36:02.940 in dichotomy of leadership that you got to be humble, not passive. What that means is that when

00:36:07.580 it's time to, from a leadership perspective, if someone's telling you to go out and execute a mission

00:36:13.960 or an order that's going to be catastrophic for your team, the risk is so great, it's going to

00:36:18.140 risk your team or risk your mission. You have a duty to actually push back against that. You need

00:36:22.740 to let them know that what they're actually asking and what the results are going to be.

00:36:26.080 So you can't be passive. Being humble doesn't mean being passive. And I think that's, you know,

00:36:30.500 so many people have this idea that everybody in the military is this Terminator robot that just does

00:36:35.940 what they're told to do all the time. And of course, we know that's not true. Thank God for that,

00:36:39.740 right? If you did have these Terminator, you're just going to carry out whatever mission you're told to do,

00:36:43.280 then you're going to have major problems. I mean, you want people to say, hold on a second,

00:36:46.260 why are we doing that? Or, hey, can we, can we mitigate the risks of this by doing it this way?

00:36:50.420 Or can we hit the enemy? Can we accomplish that same mission by doing it in a different manner,

00:36:55.220 maybe mitigate some risks to the troops? And that's what you want. You want that from the team.

00:36:59.820 So you can't be passive. The Maxims of Napoleon, you know, from 200 plus years ago,

00:37:06.080 he's Maxims of Napoleon. I mean, Jaco did a podcast on it, but to paraphrase one of the quotes,

00:37:10.440 it was that a general in chief has a duty to resign his commission rather than carry out the

00:37:17.640 orders that he knows will lead to the destruction of his army. You have a duty to do that. Particularly

00:37:22.780 if someone's telling you to do something that's immoral, that's illegal, those are easy answers.

00:37:27.180 Absolutely. You got to stand your ground on that and push back.

00:37:29.580 Sure, of course.

00:37:29.840 But also someone's doing something that's going to be catastrophic to your mission, you know,

00:37:34.320 or to the team that you absolutely have to push back on that as well. Good leaders recognize

00:37:38.360 that. You got to be humble, but you can't be passive.

00:37:41.160 That is hard because essentially when you're pushing back against something like that,

00:37:45.000 you're risking, you're risking a lot. I mean, you're risking your livelihood. I talk with guys

00:37:48.920 every day who are thinking, you know, my, my boss, my employment is doing some shady stuff. And I don't

00:37:53.600 know if I should call attention to this. I'm like, man, you gotta, you either got to call attention or

00:37:57.900 you have to have a game plan to get yourself out of that situation. Cause it's only going to get worse,

00:38:02.300 but it's tough. You're talking about taking food off your family's table or the roof over their head,

00:38:07.680 because you're, you're trying to be a man of principle and conviction in these difficult

00:38:11.440 calls that you need to make. That's a challenge. It is a challenge. It is a challenge. The reality

00:38:16.500 is at the end of the day, you got to be able to look at yourself in the mirror. Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:20.780 Did I make the right decisions? And, and, you know, listen, I think for leaders that have

00:38:24.860 made those decisions, I know a number of people that, you know, I have tremendous respect for folks

00:38:28.660 like that have walked away from a very lucrative career in a business or made the right call just

00:38:33.380 based on, you know, you're asking me to do something that I didn't feel was right. And I'm going to just

00:38:37.000 say, no, I'm going to say, no, I can't do that. You can be professional about that. You don't have

00:38:41.040 to be the, you know, it doesn't have to be the giant big blowup thing, but you got to evaluate

00:38:45.100 those things very carefully. The dichotomy here though, is that I encounter leaders that sometimes

00:38:51.000 will say, uh, we'll try to make, you know, the kind of mountain out of the molehill situation where

00:38:57.140 they're making it a much bigger issue. Like, well, the boss is telling me to do this and I just

00:39:01.500 disagree with it. And, and that goes back to the leader and a follower thing. I'm like, okay, well,

00:39:05.960 is it immoral? Is it illegal? Is it going to have, you know, catastrophic impact to your

00:39:10.800 mission? No, it's not. So why are you using that as like the sword to fall on there? I

00:39:16.420 don't, it doesn't make sense just so you can prove you're right. That's just your ego getting

00:39:20.300 in the way because you didn't initially agree with this. So you got to very carefully evaluate

00:39:24.900 those and you got to prioritize where you're going to push back. And I think those, those

00:39:28.740 opportunities to do that are pretty rare. You know, I've worked with hundreds of leaders

00:39:32.300 over the last seven years that we've had our company, our consulting firm echelon front.

00:39:36.860 It's pretty rare to see that. It's pretty rare. It's only been a handful of times. I've seen

00:39:39.920 that out of hundreds where most of the time we get people wanting to push back on stuff

00:39:44.400 and just, they just want to prove their ride. They don't want to do what the boss said.

00:39:47.520 You know, they had some little different perspective and you're thinking, well, at the end of the

00:39:50.440 day, does it really matter? What's the difference? You know, is it, is it 10% difference between

00:39:55.040 your plan and his plan or her plan? You just want to push back on it. Cause you're saying

00:39:59.080 it's, you know, you want to be the one to make that call. That that's why we wrote the

00:40:03.180 leader in a follower chapter so that people can understand, listen, if you can't be a good

00:40:06.000 follower, then you're not being a good leader. You're actually failing your team.

00:40:09.840 And not to mention if you are following, for example, if you were in that subordinate

00:40:13.100 position, at some point you're probably going to work your way up into a leadership position

00:40:16.700 and, and you're probably going to get a bunch of people that are following you the way that

00:40:19.780 you were following that other guy in a way, maybe it's karma. Maybe it's not so passive as

00:40:24.460 karma. It's just the way that you have run your organization. And so you're going to,

00:40:28.560 you're going to run into people who are like you stubborn or hardheaded or pain in the ass

00:40:33.060 or whatever it may be. So yeah, but back to the humility piece, I think that's,

00:40:36.440 if you're approaching a conversation with humility, like that, one of the things that,

00:40:40.100 you know, Jocko is this big, angry looking, you know, tough, tough dude. But if I went in and said,

00:40:45.380 Hey Jocko, I think we ought to go this direction. I know this was the plan. He would never be like,

00:40:50.020 no, we're going my way. He would always say, well, talk to me about that. Talk me through your plan.

00:40:55.140 I think if you approach something with humility of maybe that person knows something that I don't

00:41:00.420 know, because none of us have all the answers, none of us have it all figured out. And even if

00:41:04.760 we've got years and years and years of experience, someone who's new to the organization may actually

00:41:09.060 provide some different perspective that just sees a unique or a fit, more efficient way of doing

00:41:14.220 things. In fact, oftentimes someone whose eyes aren't clouded by any bias can come up with a new and

00:41:19.420 innovative way to get something done. So it's always great to be open-minded to those things. And

00:41:23.860 if you're just approaching it, it's like, no, it's my way or the highway. I know everything.

00:41:27.540 No one knows everything. So you just lie into yourself. If you came to me and said, Hey Leif,

00:41:32.020 I want to, I think we ought to do it this way. I know we've been doing it this other way,

00:41:35.100 but I think we could do it this way. Then I need to automatically think, Brian may know something

00:41:39.440 that I don't know. Let's actually hear that out. Let's talk through it. And either I'm going to

00:41:43.440 learn from that experience. I will learn from the experience either way, right? I'm either going to learn,

00:41:47.920 Hey, that's a great way. Let's give it a shot. Or you know what? Here's why that wouldn't work.

00:41:52.680 And then I would be able to talk through that. And then we could rule that out. So you can start

00:41:55.940 thinking about other ideas. If you just approach a relationship always as like, I have it all

00:42:00.420 figured out, you're going to have problems, right? It's your ego getting in the way. You got to check

00:42:04.480 that ego. You got to be humble enough to say, I don't have all the answers. I don't have it figured

00:42:08.200 out. And other people know some things that I don't know. And then may come up with some great

00:42:12.120 innovative way to do things.

00:42:13.820 This also leads me to think about the way that you might approach that situation with Jocko,

00:42:18.840 for example, two things that come to mind is number one is, as I imagine you're approaching

00:42:22.440 that with a level of humility, like you're talking about the other side too, is that you

00:42:26.500 have earned that level of respect in order to make a viable suggestion. One thing I think

00:42:33.520 about, as we were talking about this, when I was a, a young retail store manager, this

00:42:38.660 kid, I gave him the schedule and I had him down to work on a Sunday. And he came back and

00:42:42.980 he said, Hey Ryan, you know, like I don't work on Sundays. I've got some, some spiritual

00:42:46.700 and religious obligations. And he was very humble. He wasn't like, I'm not doing this.

00:42:50.500 He was very humble. He's like, if there's any way we could switch this around, it would

00:42:53.720 just really, really mean a lot to me. I've made a commitment to myself not to work on

00:42:57.680 Sunday, but whenever you put me on the calendar, whatever it is outside of Sunday, I will be

00:43:03.640 the hardest person working here. I will make the most money for this store and I will absolutely

00:43:08.780 be the best asset. And you know, it was really fascinating is all of that was a hundred percent

00:43:13.500 true. A hundred percent true. Every time he was there, he out hustled, he outworked every

00:43:18.280 other employee. And so it was a no brainer for me to say, Hey, if this guy wants Sunday

00:43:22.480 off and he's going to come in here and kick ass the way that he does, I have no problem

00:43:26.800 with that at all.

00:43:27.840 That's awesome. He gives you the ability to push back in that humble, not passive equation.

00:43:33.080 If you are humble, it gives you the ability to push back, right? If you're proven, I get

00:43:37.260 that from leaders all the time. Like, well, you know, the boss doesn't listen to me and

00:43:40.960 he doesn't trust me. And the, well, you need to think, well, why is that? Or I'm being

00:43:44.760 micromanaged. Well, why is that? Why is that? What have you done? That's not developed trust

00:43:49.820 from the boss. And what could you do to develop that trust? And a lot of the times, you know,

00:43:53.600 people that want more responsibility, want to get promoted, you know, you look at what

00:43:57.720 they're doing and they're failing in the small things that they're currently charged

00:44:01.120 with. And they want even, you know, responsibility and even greater things. So you don't have a lot

00:44:04.660 of ability to push back on those things. And yet someone who's a hard worker, who's

00:44:07.680 actually getting it done, you know, when they ask for something like that, it makes a lot

00:44:11.120 of sense. And if you do it in a humble manner, like you said, I think that makes all the difference

00:44:13.960 in the world. So we call it leadership capital. It's not a term we invented. It's been around

00:44:17.740 for a while. I don't know who came up with that, but you want the ability to have some leverage

00:44:21.440 in a situation, then you need to develop leadership capital. And you acquire that capital by working

00:44:26.360 hard, being disciplined, getting the job done, you know, turning in quality work, quality

00:44:30.680 product, and not pushing back on things that don't really matter. That allows you to

00:44:34.740 actually have a lot more leverage when you ask for something or you do need to push back

00:44:39.120 on something. Well, Leif, this has been powerful, man. I know we're snugging up against time here

00:44:42.800 a little bit. I do want to ask you a couple of questions. One I prepped you for a little

00:44:46.100 bit. And that question is, what does it mean to be a man? I think what it means to be a man

00:44:50.220 is to be a person of character and strength who can provide for their family, provide for their

00:44:55.940 community and contribute and protect and serve in their community and in their business and

00:45:00.880 their work. That to me is what it means to be a man. Right on.

00:45:04.740 A hundred percent agree with that. Well, how do we connect, man? How do we learn more about what

00:45:08.500 you're doing? Obviously pick up a copy of the book. I've actually got two copies. I've got three copies

00:45:12.760 here. I've got two first edition copies. First edition. And I've also got, I've even got pre

00:45:19.260 first edition, man. Cause I've got the manual that you guys sent to me and signed as well.

00:45:23.800 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, I think I'm going to do a giveaway. So I'll let you guys know on these

00:45:28.600 cause I'll give some of these books away that I have here, but how do we connect with you?

00:45:31.620 If people want to follow what we're doing, they can go to echelonfront.com. That's our website for

00:45:35.360 our business. You can buy dichotomy of leadership or extreme ownership anywhere. Books are sold.

00:45:41.200 You can follow me on social media at Leif Babin on Twitter or a real Leif Babin on Instagram,

00:45:47.500 Leif Babin on Facebook as well. For Ryan, I just love to say what you're doing, man,

00:45:52.080 with order, man, we just appreciate all that you do. Appreciate your friendship. It was so awesome

00:45:56.420 to meet you in person up in Maine, man. I just can't thank you enough for what you're doing. I think

00:46:00.380 it has a huge impact on the world. We need men to step up and lead in their families and their

00:46:05.060 communities. It's awesome. Awesome to do that. It's awesome to see your kids and the other folks

00:46:10.200 around you that you're impacting. So proud to be back on this podcast with you. Proud of you and

00:46:14.740 honored to call your friend. Right on. Thanks, Leif. Yeah. And I've got to say the same. I mean,

00:46:18.760 just you and the entire echelon front team, I've had all you guys on and Jocko and Dave,

00:46:23.280 you and Jocko have both come on multiple times now. And man, every time I have a conversation with you

00:46:27.800 guys, it's powerful. And I know the guys that listen to this just love having you guys on and

00:46:31.740 hearing what you have to share. So I appreciate you as well, brother.

00:46:34.540 Thanks. And most importantly, thanks for all you did for us in the service and in Ramadi back in the

00:46:39.540 day. Gents, there it is. My conversation with Leif Babin. I hope you enjoyed that one. I know I

00:46:45.100 certainly did. Every time I talk with Leif and Jocko and some of these other guys, man, I'm just blown

00:46:48.800 away. I'm so blessed to be able to have conversations like this with some powerful, powerful men,

00:46:53.880 men who have achieved amazing things in their lives. And certainly I'm uplifted by that. I hope

00:46:59.040 you are too. That's the goal here, guys, is to uplift you, to edify you, to give you the tools

00:47:03.860 and the accountability and everything that you might need in order to produce. Really at the end

00:47:07.960 of the day, it's to produce. And that's what our job as men is to do. You know, boys consume,

00:47:12.660 right? I look at my young boys. I've got three of them and I've got a little girl too. And kids are

00:47:17.620 consumers, right? Bless their hearts. I love them to death, but they're consumers. But when a boy

00:47:22.560 becomes a man is when he learns to produce, he learns to give back. And that's what we're trying

00:47:27.800 to do is give you the tools to be able to do that in your family, your business, your community,

00:47:31.980 every facet of life. So I am glad that you're on this journey with me and with the other millions

00:47:37.420 and millions of men across the planet. It's really strange to actually say that, but this is becoming

00:47:41.680 a global phenomenon, a global movement, and we couldn't do it without you. So I'm grateful to you.

00:47:47.800 You helped me become a better man. So guys, go out there, pick up a copy of

00:47:51.540 Dichotomy of Leadership, which is Jocko and Leif's new book, but you can also pick up Extreme

00:47:56.500 Ownership. Both of them, very, very powerful books when it comes to leading yourself and leading

00:48:01.280 others more effectively. So I'll call it a day. I'll let you guys get to it. Go out there,

00:48:06.240 take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

00:48:11.420 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your life

00:48:16.020 and be more of the man you were meant to be, we invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - January 01, 2019

Lead Yourself Before Leading Others ｜ LEIF BABIN

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