Order of Man - Leadership Lessons Learned in Combat

00:00:00.000 Becoming better leaders is something all of us are striving to become, and there's no better

00:00:04.180 place to learn how to be an effective leader than on the battlefield of Ramadi, Iraq, during one of

00:00:09.500 the most dangerous times during the Iraq war. My guest today is Dave Burke, an instructor with

00:00:14.220 Echelon Front and retired Marine Corps officer and fighter pilot. Today, we talk about taking

00:00:18.940 those leadership lessons and applying them in civilian life, the importance of finding purposeful

00:00:23.700 work, how to keep your children from going soft, delegating roles and responsibilities,

00:00:28.520 and overcoming the obstacles of reality. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest,

00:00:34.260 embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up

00:00:39.440 one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:46.740 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day,

00:00:52.120 and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:55.920 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the

00:01:00.240 founder of this podcast, The Order of Man. As I do every single week, I want to welcome you to

00:01:04.920 this podcast. This show just wouldn't be possible without you guys. And if you're joining us for the

00:01:09.600 very first time, just to let you know a little bit about what we're up to here, this is a show

00:01:13.600 about becoming a better man. If you want to become a better father, a better husband, a better business

00:01:19.300 owner, employee, whatever facet of life that you are showing up as, it is my responsibility to give you the

00:01:25.160 tools and the guidance and the direction and the resources. And in this show, every Tuesday,

00:01:30.400 some conversations with some powerful, powerful men that will help you do just that. This week is

00:01:35.860 no exception. I've got an amazing conversation lined up, but before I get into that, let me give

00:01:40.540 you a couple of quick announcements. Last week, I announced that we have a rating and review contest

00:01:46.020 going on right now. Guys, these ratings and reviews go such a long way. We actually moved from,

00:01:51.160 I want to say it was like number 92 in the podcast rankings up to mid twenties, 23, 24 in a matter of

00:01:59.020 24 hours because we received, I think it was something like 50 ratings and review on iTunes.

00:02:04.340 So you can see they go such a long way in promoting what we're doing here. And it's a great way to give

00:02:10.200 back. And in addition to that, if that's not enough, what we're doing between now and the end of this

00:02:15.340 month, September, 2018 is a rating review contest. We're giving away shirts, hats, signed copies of

00:02:22.520 my book, sovereignty, one-on-one calls. I mean, we're doing it all. So go in, leave a rating and

00:02:27.580 review between now and the end of this month, September, 2018, and you will automatically be

00:02:32.960 entered to win. That's it. They're pretty simple. Outside of that, I did want to make a mention of my

00:02:38.860 friends and show sponsor guys. I have been feeling a little banged up over the past, I don't know,

00:02:44.820 two months or so, because my training regimen has been increased over that time period between my

00:02:51.360 morning workouts, five days a week, and my other workouts that I do four days a week, my strength

00:02:55.940 stuff, uh, jujitsu and everything else that I have going on. And I know you do as well. My bones and my

00:03:02.940 muscles are feeling a little sore. I have been skeptical. I will tell you and be the first to admit

00:03:07.880 about supplements. I've been extremely skeptical, but that being said, I have been introduced to

00:03:14.060 origin and all of the things that they're doing over there. It's their joint warfare. It's their

00:03:18.580 super krill. It's their protein. It's Jocko's discipline. And I've been taking those regularly,

00:03:24.000 especially the joint warfare and the super krill. And I got to say, even over the past week, two weeks,

00:03:29.060 my arms and knees are feeling significantly better than they were at that jujitsu camp that I went to,

00:03:35.640 where my arms and legs were getting contorted and distorted in every which way possible. So if

00:03:40.520 you're kind of feeling that way too, and think maybe some supplements, would it help enhance

00:03:44.240 what you're doing, or at least make you feel a little better, which is what they've been proven to

00:03:48.400 do for me, uh, then head to origin, main.com slash order of men origin, main.com slash order of

00:03:55.680 men. You can check out all the things that they're doing over at origin, check out their geese,

00:04:00.760 their rash guards, their supplements. And then if you end up picking something up, I want to get you a

00:04:04.800 discount and that discount, you can use the code order O R D E R at checkout. And you'll get the

00:04:11.120 discount there again, origin, main.com slash order of man. All right, guys, check that out. Now,

00:04:17.920 in the meantime, I want to introduce you to my guest and friend. I had the opportunity to roll with him

00:04:23.520 a little bit, a couple of weeks ago in jujitsu at a immersion camp. This guy is incredible.

00:04:29.020 Absolutely incredible. He's a retired Marine Corps officer. He's a fighter pilot. He's a ground

00:04:33.660 combat leader. In fact, he gave up his wings to fight on the ground in Ramadi. He spent three

00:04:39.880 years as an instructor at Top Gun. And then again, later went on to support task unit bruiser,

00:04:45.780 which was Jocko's unit on the ground in Ramadi. He's flown the F-16, the F-18, the F-22 Raptor,

00:04:52.080 the F-35. But again, he's been on multiple combat missions in some of the most dangerous cities in Iraq,

00:04:57.740 but he's since gone on to become a leadership instructor with Echelon Front on the subject of

00:05:03.400 leadership, decision-making, risk mitigation, and creating winning teams. Again, extremely

00:05:08.960 intelligent individual, just an incredible person and warrior and leader. So without any further ado,

00:05:16.900 let's get to this conversation with Dave. Dave, what's going on, man? Thanks for joining me on

00:05:21.880 the show today. Right. It's good to be here, man. Thank you for having me. Yeah. I've been looking

00:05:25.080 forward to this since our, I don't know, we had a conversation, what, two, three weeks ago.

00:05:28.600 And I've really been looking forward to, well, anytime I can get any member of the Echelon Front

00:05:33.200 team on, I'm pretty excited about that. I know the bar has been set pretty high,

00:05:36.680 given that a lot of my buddies from the team have already been on here. So.

00:05:39.720 Yeah. We've had Jocko on a couple of times. Leif's been on. I still need to get JP on as well.

00:05:44.420 I imagine we'll be able to do that, some of that at immersion camp. So.

00:05:48.200 We can definitely get JP for sure. Well, good, man. Well, I'm excited. How did you get

00:05:51.820 tapped in with these guys? I mean, I know you served in combat in Ramadi. When did you get

00:05:56.580 to Ramadi? I got to Ramadi in early of 2006, February, 2006, just about the time that Leif

00:06:02.380 and Jocko got there as well, about six weeks prior. Yeah. You and I then had some overlap

00:06:06.700 because I was in Ramadi. I left in, gosh, when did I leave? June, June of 2006. So we must

00:06:13.880 have had some overlap there. Yeah. I remember we talked about that. It's a small world. Yeah. I had

00:06:17.960 some overlap. 3-7 was the main Marine battalion there and I overlap with them, but we crossed

00:06:22.840 paths more than once in our two months there. Yeah. I'm sure that's the case. And it is just

00:06:26.880 a small world to know. And it's amazing how many people I've talked with that were in Ramadi

00:06:31.260 at the time. You just don't know about, right? For sure. And that was really the inception

00:06:36.660 of my relationship with Jocko and Leif was that time and on that fact tour and that deployment.

00:06:41.960 But I can assure you, it never really occurred to me at the time or for the 10 years after

00:06:46.680 that that would lead us back to reconnecting and working together at Echelon Front. I mean,

00:06:51.500 those things just don't go through your head. But had I not had that experience, first of all,

00:06:56.740 you and I probably wouldn't be talking and I definitely wouldn't be working with Leif

00:07:00.420 and Jocko again. So it's crazy how these things come full circle all the time.

00:07:03.820 So if I understand correctly, you then reached out later or you went to one of their events

00:07:08.260 or something like that and got tapped back into what it is they were doing after they had

00:07:12.240 come out with what, Extreme Ownership? Is that kind of the timeline?

00:07:15.200 Yeah, believe it or not, I had stayed in touch with Leif here and there, not a ton,

00:07:19.760 but we'd connected. And he had seen me do an interview on TV and he just sent me an email,

00:07:25.600 reached out and we had been texting a little bit. I let him know probably the following year. I said,

00:07:30.760 hey, just give you a heads up, I'm going to be retiring. We hadn't talked about specific plans

00:07:34.900 for me, but he had mentioned a few times about the company and how well it was doing and it was

00:07:38.220 growing. And he had mentioned the idea of joining the team. And when I told him I was retiring,

00:07:42.420 he called me, he's like, hey man, we're serious. We'd love for you to think about it. And he asked

00:07:46.800 me to come to an event just here in the local area that Jocko and he were doing. And I got to see them

00:07:51.160 do their thing in action and saw how powerful it was. And it just fell into my lap. It's the best

00:07:56.160 thing that ever happened to me. These guys are incredible and the timing was great. And the fact

00:07:59.620 that Leif trusted me to come on board the team meant a lot, but to be able to see what they were doing

00:08:04.020 and the impact they were making, it made it a pretty easy decision for me. So he reached out and

00:08:07.520 it was a pretty easy sell. You said it was the best decision you could have made.

00:08:11.180 What specifically made it that for you? So look, when people leave the military or even when people

00:08:16.200 think about the military, and I'm sure you understand this, the thing that you're trying

00:08:19.220 to replicate is the impact that you're making, that you find another way that what you're doing

00:08:24.640 matters, that you're making an impact, that you're doing something that has meaning. And I don't ever,

00:08:29.520 I never thought about that in the Marine Corps. I knew that was the case. I never contemplated

00:08:33.320 the power, the impact of my career choice. And when you leave, you're obviously, you're not

00:08:37.880 going to replicate the environment. I'm never going to fly fighters again. I'm, you know,

00:08:40.860 none of those things are ever going to happen, but I still want to do something that matters.

00:08:44.960 And that's, I think the most, the biggest challenge for people is finding a new mission

00:08:48.920 that has meaning when you're transitioning veteran. And I got to go to echelon front and the impact,

00:08:55.980 the meaning, the power, all those things are so incredible there. I know that I couldn't have

00:09:00.720 asked for a better situation to transition, to be able to still deliver things that matter.

00:09:04.800 So I feel like, again, I kind of hit the lottery there.

00:09:07.080 I don't want to discount you getting in line and tying in with echelon front at all,

00:09:12.040 but I think there was some connections that were made in the past. And I know there's a lot of guys

00:09:15.680 out there who feel stuck or they feel like they're in a holding pattern right now. And just like

00:09:20.140 wondering how they find their purpose, how they find their mission. Any words of wisdom there?

00:09:25.920 The language we use is you have to have a mission. Those that serve, our brains are wired to do

00:09:31.960 something that has commitment and meaning. And we define that as a mission. There has to be a purpose

00:09:36.560 in what you're doing. And I think a lot of times people start to think about how much money they

00:09:42.020 need to make to support their families, what kind of lifestyle they want to live. And they start to do

00:09:45.540 a lot of calculations about things that they think they need or think they want, which is

00:09:49.820 important. You certainly need to provide, but the first calculation should be in your mind is what do you

00:09:54.380 want to do? What does your next mission look like? And look, it doesn't, you don't have to know with

00:09:59.240 complete singular purpose, but you have to start thinking about what that looks like now and start

00:10:03.740 to pursue something that has meaning. All those other things will fall in line. They will. And look,

00:10:09.640 anybody that's ever served knows that we don't do it for the money. That's certainly not the calculus

00:10:13.780 you're making when you serve and when you join the military. But it's hard sometimes when the

00:10:19.020 pressures of real life start to build on you and to get away from the things that we take for granted,

00:10:23.120 which is having a purpose filled and a meaning filled profession. Veterans need to know what

00:10:28.200 their next mission is going to be. They need to be able to understand and define what that looks like

00:10:31.580 and pursue that and have confidence that their experience, their skills, their abilities, and what

00:10:35.820 they contribute. All those other things will fall in line. You'll make money, you'll be able to provide,

00:10:40.280 you'll live the lifestyle that you want. But if you get that out of order and you pursue those and not

00:10:44.400 the next mission or not your next goal, you're setting yourself up for trouble.

00:10:48.320 I think a lot of guys probably know to some degree what that could potentially look like. I mean,

00:10:52.880 they may not have the entire roadmap. I believe most people out there have an idea of what they

00:10:57.380 want in the future, even if it's just a week from now. Yeah. But I also think there's a lot of

00:11:02.580 obstacles and challenges and head talk that get in our way of pursuing that. Do you find that to be

00:11:10.580 the case? Yeah, there is. I mean, you know, everybody's got an idea. And here's something I

00:11:15.500 discovered, you know, as I've sort of entered the world of social media, I've entered a little bit of

00:11:20.100 this world in the podcast. And I've gotten to talk to different people. A lot of times people

00:11:24.800 are trying to sell you a sort of the quick fix. A lot of people want to sell you the shortcut or the

00:11:28.500 gimmick. They're kind of offering you like, hey, I'm going to give you the inside secret on how to

00:11:33.040 make these things happen. And it really flies against what we know in the military is that there

00:11:37.060 are no shortcuts. There's the path. There's that commitment to that path and moving down that path

00:11:41.720 every single day. Even like you described, if that destination isn't certainly 100% clear,

00:11:47.500 it's okay. But you understand you're on the path and you're moving towards something

00:11:50.620 that matters. Hey, if you start to hear advice of, hey, we can do an end run here,

00:11:55.280 we can cut the corner here, we can accelerate the process here, we can do a cheat here.

00:12:00.020 Those are wrong. And there's a lot of that out there. There's a lot of people, I think,

00:12:03.240 trying to take advantage of folks that are looking for good advice and looking for perspective.

00:12:07.660 And if somebody is selling you a shortcut, you shouldn't listen to it. There are no shortcuts

00:12:11.740 right now. And that includes a transition. You got to have a good idea of what you want to do,

00:12:15.760 what commitment you want to make and what mission you want to start to pursue.

00:12:19.200 Got to get on the road and you got to start grinding, you know, and that's what you got

00:12:22.240 to do. And anybody who tells you otherwise isn't telling you the whole truth.

00:12:24.780 And it's really easy in a social media driven world to see the results. I mean, I look at

00:12:28.560 my time, for example, I got back from Iraq in 2006. So we're 12 years into it. And I feel like

00:12:35.000 I've found over the past couple of years, but it took me more than a decade of taking action towards

00:12:40.560 what ultimately was not my purpose, but just taking action. I mean, you spent 23 years

00:12:45.380 in the military and here you are now, but it's really easy to say, Oh, he got lucky or he just

00:12:50.320 tied in with the right organization at the right time. And yet people discount the two decades plus

00:12:55.640 of work that it took to actually get to where you are.

00:12:59.180 Yeah. Look at the end of the day, what pays off is working hard. What pays off is being disciplined.

00:13:04.560 What pays off is grinding. That's what pays off in the end. And yeah, there are lucky breaks

00:13:09.020 along the way I've had more than my fair share. And I would never tell you that I wasn't

00:13:12.800 a beneficiary of good luck and good circumstance in my life several times. That's part of the reason

00:13:17.860 why Jocko calls me good deal. Dave, I've gotten a lot of good deals and good things have happened

00:13:21.860 to me and I can't take credit for all those things. But I think you hit the nail on the head is that

00:13:25.840 the formula that works and the formula that makes it that those opportunities reveal themselves and

00:13:31.460 you're prepared for those opportunities is that grind is that hard work. And you can't have one

00:13:36.280 one day out the other. If your plan is to just wait to get lucky, you're going to be waiting

00:13:39.500 around for a long time. But if you're working hard and people recognize that you're working

00:13:42.940 hard and if you're grinding and people recognize that you're grinding and if every single day you're

00:13:47.020 moving down the road, an opportunity is going to pop up that wouldn't have been there before

00:13:50.460 and you're going to jump on that opportunity. And, you know, somebody may call that luck.

00:13:53.640 Somebody may call it something else. But at the end of the day, it's up to you to be ready

00:13:56.640 for that opportunity and you got to get after that. And it's not going to be given to you

00:14:00.480 and there's no shortcut to get there, man. It's just a fact of life.

00:14:02.900 Let's rewind to the beginning of your military career. Did you join out of college or out of

00:14:08.160 high school? I mean, you're in the Marine Corps. So what did that actually look like?

00:14:11.820 I got commissioned maybe a couple of days after I graduated from college. So I knew I wanted to be

00:14:16.140 a pilot. I knew to be a pilot, you have to be an officer. And there's a whole process there about

00:14:20.460 becoming a Marine officer that starts kind of end of high school, early college years to go to

00:14:25.300 officer candidate school and all the applications that go along with that. So I did all those things

00:14:29.480 that were required that by the time I received my degree and graduated from college, I was able to

00:14:34.340 get my commission right after that and then started my Marine Corps career as a lieutenant.

00:14:38.280 What does that path actually look like? I mean, were you on a path to becoming a pilot? I have no idea

00:14:43.040 what that looks like.

00:14:44.000 Well, I took the long road. The recruiters for officers are called an OSO, officer selection officer.

00:14:50.040 So it's basically a recruiter to get you down the road of a commission. And he helps you prepare for

00:14:54.540 the things you need to do. And there's a lot of schooling involved and you got to get your degree.

00:14:57.860 You're sort of left to your own devices for that. What the OSO really does is screen you and prepare

00:15:02.360 you to go to officer candidate school, which is kind of like a bootcamp for officers. It's a

00:15:06.240 program that all Marines go through. It's in Quantico, Virginia. It's about an 80 something

00:15:10.820 day program. And you have to complete officer candidate school in order to receive a commission.

00:15:16.340 And you can do that during college or after college. I happen to go during, during the summer

00:15:20.400 break after freshman and junior years. You go twice, actually. These two programs called

00:15:25.140 platoon leaders course, juniors and seniors. There's different ways to do it, but they're

00:15:28.500 all kind of similar. Anybody that's a Marine officer will know what I'm talking about.

00:15:31.880 And at the end of that, you get a commission. And I was commissioned as a ground officer.

00:15:35.820 I could have contracted as an air officer, meaning an air contract. There was none available at the

00:15:40.700 time. And I wasn't savvy enough to realize how difficult becoming a pilot was going to be.

00:15:45.640 So I showed up to the basic school as a ground officer, wanting to be a pilot and knowing that

00:15:51.560 when I got to the basic school, which is a six month course for all Marine officers in order

00:15:55.800 to get their job, we called it an MLS, your profession. You got to compete with everybody

00:16:00.080 in the class for your billet. And the billet that I wanted was pilot. When I got to TBS,

00:16:04.920 there's 250 guys in my class. When I first got there, they had two pilot slots that they were

00:16:08.860 going to give out.

00:16:09.620 Oh, geez. Basically 1% is going to become a pilot.

00:16:12.740 Yeah, it is tough. So before I overstate it, not everybody wants to be a pilot. There are guys that

00:16:16.980 have pilot contracts. So it's not, you're not necessarily competing with all 250. A lot of

00:16:21.060 guys have different goals. Make no mistake. You know, not everybody wants to be a pilot, but

00:16:25.460 there's more than two guys that one. Yeah. So it's pretty competitive. Um, and I remember being

00:16:32.580 kind of envious of the guys that got there that had contracted to go to OCS as an air candidate.

00:16:37.200 So if they graduated college, finished OCS, they automatically went to flight school after

00:16:41.680 they've got a leg up for that. I'm sure.

00:16:43.400 Yeah. I did not do that. So I took kind of took the hard road, but it worked out. I got

00:16:47.220 that second of two pilot slots. I think I ended up giving out a couple more, but I got the number

00:16:51.800 two billet there for pilot and went down to flight school and then started my flight training from

00:16:55.840 there. How long was flight school then in addition to OCS and some of the other courses you'd been

00:16:59.960 through? The finished degree in college, TBS is six months, almost to the day. It's like an

00:17:04.180 exactly six month program. I got down to flight school and flight school from sort of the day you start

00:17:08.580 to the day you get your wings. And there's a bunch of things that go involved with that.

00:17:11.820 It varies between 18 and 24 months, but you know, a year and a half, a little bit longer. I took a

00:17:17.260 little bit longer than a year and a half. There were some delays and whatnot, but between 18 and

00:17:21.640 24 months before you were winged as a pilot, you know, a naval aviator in the Marine Corps.

00:17:26.480 And then what is it from there? Because I imagine they don't just put you up in these tens of

00:17:29.680 millions of dollars of equipment, these planes, or maybe they do. I don't know. What does it look like?

00:17:34.440 Yeah. So, I mean, flight school starts pretty slow. You're in a classroom and there's simulators and

00:17:38.180 there's academics and then you start in a little propeller plane, single engine prop, and then you

00:17:42.680 move on to a little more advanced aircraft and then even some more advanced aircraft. Now, I think it's

00:17:47.240 just one advanced jet in flight school called a T-45, which is pretty cool jet. It's a subsonic

00:17:52.140 airplane, but it's a neat machine that does a lot of cool stuff. You land on the carrier in it,

00:17:56.560 you drop bombs, you simulate air to air training. But when you finish flight school and you get winged,

00:18:02.400 you get ranked amongst your peers, and then they literally give you an airplane. They assign you to the

00:18:06.540 platform that you're hoping for or whatever they give you. I got assigned to the F-18.

00:18:10.940 And the next thing you do is you're in a, you know, an F-18. Now, you've got an instructor with

00:18:14.200 you. So, the first couple of flights, you've got training with guys in the aircraft with you so

00:18:18.560 you're not completely alone. Right. But the day after flight school, the first flight you have is

00:18:22.920 an F-18, you know, a full-up gray Hornet. You've got another eight-month syllabus called the

00:18:27.460 Replacement Air Group, which is just a training squadron. And then from there, maybe nine months or so,

00:18:32.440 you get assigned to a fleet-configured combat-capable F-18 squadron. And I went to a

00:18:37.400 squadron there in Miramar that was a boat squadron that was so attached to an aircraft carrier. And I

00:18:42.160 was flying single-seat F-18s, you know, less than four years after I got commissioned, I was in a

00:18:46.540 Hornet squadron, which was my dream, man. It was awesome. And Miramar is where Top Gun is, correct?

00:18:52.880 Miramar is where Top Gun was. Top Gun moved out of Miramar in the late 90s up to a place called

00:18:57.640 Fallon in Nevada. Oh, okay. When the Navy left Naval Air Station Miramar, the Marine Corps moved

00:19:03.800 down there, became Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, and Top Gun left Miramar up to Naval Station Fallon,

00:19:09.740 which is a big open range out in the desert in Nevada. Completely empty out there and everything

00:19:14.160 else. Nothing out there, man. It's a great place to train. Not much else going on, but if you're

00:19:18.000 dedicated to training and combat, preparation for combat, that's the place to do it. Well, and it's

00:19:23.020 probably got a lot of striking similarities between the Nevada desert and the Middle East.

00:19:28.000 It's got striking similarities, and they built it out with a lot of training ranges, so you can

00:19:32.020 really do a good job preparing for that. All the training wings, all the air wings that are

00:19:36.040 training for deployment come through there, and Top Gun. The helicopter's got a weapons school.

00:19:41.000 There's, you know, all the sort of follow-on graduate-level academic and flying training for

00:19:45.680 aviation in the Navy and the Marine Corps is up in Fallon. It's pretty cool when I drive. I'm in

00:19:50.800 Southern Utah, so when I drive down to Vegas, they're all flying out of Nellis, and so to see

00:19:55.500 those fighter jets come out and fly over the highway is always a pretty cool sight. I was stationed at

00:19:59.960 Nellis for several years as well. It's an unbelievable place to train. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so here's the real

00:20:05.300 question. Then how does a Marine Corps fighter go into now ground operations in Ramadi? Yeah, well,

00:20:12.520 if you're me, you volunteer. Is that okay? I wasn't sure. Yeah, I wasn't sure if that happened. A lot of

00:20:16.960 people question that decision. You know, my dream growing up was to be a Marine. I became a Marine.

00:20:21.420 The first thing I did as a Marine after getting assigned to go to flight school is I spent two

00:20:25.920 years in naval flight training. So all Navy and Marine Corps pilots go through naval aviation

00:20:30.200 training. It's all the same training. Okay. And they don't really care. There's not much difference

00:20:34.020 between the Navy and the Marines down there. A couple of small differences, but for the most part,

00:20:37.660 it's a naval training program. Then you train in the squadron to train you for the F-18, and that's

00:20:41.960 all Navy Marines. And then my first Marine Corps squadron, I was four years in an F-18 squadron

00:20:47.020 on a Marine base, but we were attached to an aircraft carrier. So I was kind of like a Navy

00:20:51.320 squadron, the one Marine unit on a Navy carrier. I did four years off carriers, two full deployments

00:20:56.600 and workups. And after that, my next assignment in aviation was up at Top Gun. So I was a Top Gun

00:21:01.540 instructor for three years, and that's the Navy's weapons school. So I was one of three Marines on a

00:21:06.040 Navy base. So the bottom line in this story is I had basically spent almost eight years,

00:21:10.360 seven plus years as a Marine doing nothing but flying with the Navy.

00:21:14.720 Right. So it's almost interchangeable at that point.

00:21:17.160 Yeah. There's a ton of overlap and it was great. Those guys, the Navy's incredible. I got nothing

00:21:20.860 good things to say about it, but as a Marine, there was a part of me that felt I wanted to do

00:21:24.880 something that was very unique to the Marine Corps that other services didn't do. So when I was going

00:21:28.700 to get out of the Marine Corps, which I had plans on doing a long time ago, I had this unique

00:21:32.800 Marine Corps experience and the unique Marine Corps experience for me was being a forward air

00:21:36.620 controller. So I was actually given orders to leave Top Gun to go back to the

00:21:40.080 cockpit to fly. We called him the monitors, the guy that gives you your orders, your assignment.

00:21:44.860 And I said, Hey, I don't want to go back to flying. I want to go spend a year on the ground

00:21:48.760 as a forward air controller. And I'll go back to flying after that.

00:21:51.940 What was the reaction to that? I can't imagine. It's got to be very uncommon.

00:21:56.160 In this case, the reaction was, no, you're not doing that.

00:21:58.700 Right.

00:21:58.960 He cut me orders to go fly at a squadron that needed my experience from Top Gun. And we went back and forth

00:22:05.600 and I was compelling enough to let him take me, let me take a billet that was called a

00:22:10.360 hot fill, kind of a job nobody wanted. It was out of Japan. So I was going to move to Japan and do a

00:22:14.740 deployment in Japan as a forward air controller.

00:22:17.220 Nobody wanted to do that because it wasn't combat experience or what?

00:22:20.320 Yeah, I think nobody wanted to do it because it was a one year unaccompanied overseas billet out of

00:22:26.280 Japan. And for whatever reason, it just wasn't something anybody really wanted to do. I saw it at the

00:22:31.480 time as an opportunity to do something unique. The promise was after that year as a forward air

00:22:36.080 controller in Japan, I would come back to the Marine Corps in Miramar to fly Hornets and I would end up

00:22:40.880 finishing up my career in my last year flying airplanes. So it seemed pretty easy. Very shortly

00:22:45.520 after I kind of pressed the monitor into letting me go to that fact tour, that unit that I was going

00:22:50.300 to go to, it became clear that they're going to send part of that unit to Camp Lejeune to prepare

00:22:55.280 for a combat deployment to Iraq. I asked if I could do that. There was no real pushback. That was

00:23:01.180 pretty obvious. That was an easy thing for me to do. And before I knew it, you know, this fact

00:23:05.160 tour in Japan ended up being not nearly the full year. I was in Camp Lejeune preparing for a

00:23:11.300 deployment to Iraq. So instead of a year in Japan, I spent, you know, somewhere around five months.

00:23:16.180 The other seven months were spent in Ramadi. When you went, was the goal or the plan to be an

00:23:22.760 aviator at that point or was it ground operation, that unit? All I wanted to do is I wanted a year on the

00:23:28.300 ground with Marines as a foreigner controller. I always expected that to be when I volunteered,

00:23:32.760 I was going to be in Japan on the ground training and preparing. I didn't envision combat. When the

00:23:38.740 deployment to Iraq became evident, that was something I knew I should do. I volunteered for

00:23:43.500 that and sort of a sequence of events occurred where it ended up being where the commanding officer

00:23:48.000 of that unit that I was attached to, that Anglico unit, I was the senior foreigner controller. I was a

00:23:53.480 senior pilot. I was a mid-level major. And he said, Hey, here's a sheet of paper. Here's all the

00:23:57.640 locations in Iraq. We're going to deploy to, cause we would cover as Anglico Marines all over the

00:24:01.700 country, different cities, different towns. And we had probably 26 sort of small teams, 13 man teams.

00:24:07.680 And I took the pen and paper and I was the first guy to get it. And I put, my team was lightning

00:24:12.280 six team. We're going to go to Ramadi. My best friend was in Ramadi in third battalion, seven

00:24:15.880 Marines. That's where the war was. You knew that you were there. And about the time you were out there

00:24:20.160 hitting the ground in Ramadi, I was essentially telling the commanding officer, I'm going to go to

00:24:24.340 Ramadi and take my team out there. And that's sort of how it just played out. It's just sort of a

00:24:28.100 sequence of events that I was fortunate to be in a little bit of control over where I could dictate

00:24:32.980 where I was going and when, and it worked out in my favor. I obviously, you know, it's double-edged

00:24:37.760 sword going into combat, but I think any Marine or anybody in the service, when there's a war going on,

00:24:42.140 you feel like you need to be a part of it. And I had the opportunity to do that.

00:24:45.380 Yeah. It's interesting when I hear you say, and it worked out in my favor because a lot of people

00:24:50.020 listening to this probably saying, how is that working out in your favor? You know,

00:24:53.320 you're going into this crazy combat environment, one of the deadliest environments that we've

00:24:59.200 experienced during the Iraqi war. And most people are like, ah, that doesn't sound favorable to me.

00:25:04.600 Well, you know, Ramadi as well as anybody, Ryan. I mean, you know, between 2005, 2006,

00:25:09.300 and early 2007, Ramadi was the most dangerous city in Iraq and, you know, arguably the most

00:25:13.760 dangerous city in the world. It just happened to be the epicenter there. I told you my best friend

00:25:17.560 was there, my buddy Neil, and he was kind of giving me daily reports on what was going on. I knew

00:25:21.900 what was happening. You know, we're sort of this classic dichotomy. I'm not a big warmonger.

00:25:26.360 You know, it's never been my dream to, you know, to put myself in harm's way like that. But it's

00:25:31.100 the balance of that is I joined the Marine Corps to serve. You want to serve in the most demanding

00:25:35.360 environments. You want to serve where there's the most amount of need and where the most amount

00:25:38.500 of need is, is in the most difficult settings. And Ramadi was the most difficult place. And, and

00:25:43.220 that's what you do. That's where they need you. And that's where you're going to go.

00:25:46.220 And, you know, I've talked to guys, you know, I have different approaches on it. My approach

00:25:49.840 was I needed to go where I was most needed. I can make the most impact. And yeah, that

00:25:54.200 meant you're going to go in harm's way a little bit, but tens of thousands of people were out

00:25:57.760 there in harm's way on a regular basis. My story is no more compelling than anybody else's. There's

00:26:02.640 some heroes out there that did things a lot tougher than I did, but I knew that's where the

00:26:06.160 fight was. And I felt in my heart that that's what I needed to do.

00:26:09.440 What is the responsibility of a forward air controller?

00:26:12.400 So I had a really simple job, very doctrinal job. There was a Marine Corps owned the battle

00:26:17.360 space. We owned the area of operations. We called it the AO, but there was a giant army

00:26:21.940 brigade of, you know, 5,500 army soldiers working that Marine battle space. And because the army

00:26:27.820 and the Marine Corps treat aviation differently, my job was to act as a liaison to take Marine

00:26:32.240 Corps aircraft and support the army ground maneuver. So that was really for me an ideal job

00:26:38.560 because I could learn how the army did ground movements, but they were never going to be

00:26:41.760 able to understand air the way that I was. I mean, I'd flown F-18s in Iraq. So here I am in Iraq on

00:26:47.080 the ground controlling F-18s and Harriers aircraft that I'm really, really comfortable and familiar

00:26:51.840 with. I've done a lot of training on. And so I was able to bring all the capabilities of Marine

00:26:57.020 fixed wing and rotor wing aircraft. And look, Navy guys off the boat too, a bunch of Air Force

00:27:01.540 assets as well, but primarily Marine fixed and rotors. That's Hueys, Cobras, Hornets, and Harriers.

00:27:06.560 My job was to bring the capability of those aircraft to the army ground maneuver. And I

00:27:11.180 embedded myself with the army maneuver elements and brought aircraft to the fight and 13 killer

00:27:17.120 Marines that were incredible. And we had three Humvees and a bunch of great comm gear and radios

00:27:22.080 and machine guns and all sorts of great capability. And we just jumped in the fight with those guys and

00:27:26.580 spent the next seven months on the ground with those guys making it happen.

00:27:30.000 I don't want to discount what you were doing in the air, but I imagine that the environment from day

00:27:35.060 one was completely different. Obviously a lot more intimate and in your face, I imagine,

00:27:41.320 than what previous missions had been for you.

00:27:43.980 Oh, look, I mean, you said earlier, you know, I spent 23 years in the Marine Corps. I can tell you

00:27:48.320 by a huge margin, the most profound, the most challenging, the most difficult and the most

00:27:53.760 rewarding seven months I ever spent were those in Ramadi. And yeah, it's combat up close is different.

00:27:58.900 And I saw the best and the worst of it and endured things that I certainly never imagined.

00:28:03.480 There is a lot of hardship and loss and there's a lot of sacrifice and you see it,

00:28:08.520 you're right there for it. You know, the cockpit offers you a little bit of separation. You're up

00:28:12.460 in the air, you're removed, you know, using altitude and space and speed. And those are great

00:28:16.840 things. Aviation brings a huge capability. I wouldn't want to go to war without it, but the view of war

00:28:22.560 from the cockpit is a lot different than the view of war from, you know, the sides of your rifle or

00:28:26.920 standing next to Marines and soldiers engaged in a firefights that I saw firsthand. So yeah,

00:28:32.400 it's a totally different viewpoint, man. It's, it's different.

00:28:35.460 I was really fascinated by your conversation with Jocko, which I think was maybe last week

00:28:39.380 where that podcast released and you're talking about dehumanizing, right? And I imagine being

00:28:44.220 so far away from the action itself, there was probably a little bit of that where you could

00:28:48.440 disconnect to some degree from actually seeing face-to-face and being intimate in the way that

00:28:54.020 you were on the ground.

00:28:55.640 Yeah, you can. That affords you the opportunity. You know, the other thing too, is when you're done

00:29:00.140 with a combat mission in the airplane, you go back to a carrier, you go back to a fortified

00:29:04.460 base, you know, go back to a pretty safe place. You know, the operations we did in Iraq, you know,

00:29:08.880 we were operating inside the city and those, those combat outposts, those forward bases,

00:29:12.660 they're right there in the city. You never went home. You know, the best you could do is go back

00:29:16.540 to Camp Ramadi and anybody that's been out to Camp Ramadi, at least back in 2006, you know,

00:29:21.320 you're kind of always on your game out there.

00:29:23.140 Sure. Every day, mortars and rockets every single day without fail.

00:29:26.240 Yeah. And that was sort of the safest place to be. Right. And, and yeah, yeah. So there

00:29:29.800 is an intimacy of that. And like I said, I experienced things I certainly never expected

00:29:33.800 to experience, but as I mentioned earlier, you know, what I endured and what I saw things

00:29:39.220 that other Marines, other service members have seen compared to me. I mean, my story kind

00:29:43.840 of pales in comparison, but for me, it was, it was the real deal. It was my real taste of,

00:29:48.220 of, of real combat. And, uh, certainly won't ever forget it.

00:29:50.740 It's always fascinating to hear a soldier that you admire or Marine airman that you admire

00:29:58.060 and respect. And then to hear them say, you know, I didn't do what some of these other

00:30:03.080 people do. Like when I talk with guys like you and Jocko and some of these other people

00:30:06.140 that I have conversations with, quite honestly, I feel inadequate as a warrior because of what

00:30:12.840 they've seen. And I have never met a warrior who hasn't felt the same way.

00:30:18.020 That feeling of inadequacy. I know the feeling. I mean, one of the great things about being a

00:30:22.800 part of the show in front is I've gotten to be connected with Jocko on the podcast. You know,

00:30:26.080 I've been on a couple of times, but more importantly, I've gotten to be there while

00:30:30.120 he's interviewed other guests. I've certainly listened to every book he's ever read on the

00:30:33.700 podcast. And when you start thinking about what other men and women have done in combat,

00:30:38.200 it's humbling, man. I mean, what I've done compared to what some others have done is just,

00:30:42.420 it's kind of embarrassing to consider myself a vet in some ways. I mean, I've listened to the

00:30:46.520 stories of World War I. Go listen to Dakota Meyer's podcast on Jocko with Jocko. And if you ever had

00:30:53.840 an ego about what you've done, just spend a few minutes listening to what some other people have

00:30:57.940 done and it'll put you back in check. And we were on with a guest not too long ago, a soldier named

00:31:03.240 Tom Fyfe who received a Purple Heart in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. And he's telling all his

00:31:08.740 stories and he's thanking me for my service. And I'm like, Mr. Fyfe, I simply, it's hard to feel

00:31:15.340 adequate compared to those guys. There are some, what others have done, none of us should really

00:31:19.520 ever forget just how much sacrifice is really out there. So it'll keep you in check thinking about

00:31:24.160 what others have done before and now. We've had Dakota on as well. And I've gotten to know him

00:31:28.380 over the past couple of months and just unbelievable. And I feel like when people say, thank me for my

00:31:33.620 service, I try to be gracious and accepting that, you know, like, oh, it's my honor. And but somewhere

00:31:38.300 inside of me is like, probably shouldn't be thanking me. There's other people you should thank

00:31:43.520 way before you ever thank me and what I did. Yeah. And I think just the recognition,

00:31:47.400 the acknowledgement for all of us that have ever been on that side of it. When people say,

00:31:50.620 thank you for your service, you're right. I think they're just trying to be gracious and

00:31:53.380 they're certainly trying to be respectful and admirable. And I think that's awesome. I love

00:31:57.300 being thanked. And my answer is always, it was an honor to serve. I mean, it was, and the honor was

00:32:02.640 partially to be able to be named alongside some of those people, like we just discussed, to even share a

00:32:07.380 company with them is, it's a huge honor. And it's an honor to even be considered in that same

00:32:12.600 community. And that's one of the things I think service people are very proud of. But like you

00:32:17.800 said, and you start to think about what guys like that have done, it should at least put your ego in

00:32:23.240 check. You know, there's really no reason to think when you hear those other stories, other than just

00:32:27.760 being grateful. Those guys are unbelievable. Yeah. And if it doesn't, there's probably something

00:32:32.640 off there, I'm sure. Yeah. One of the things that struck out with me, as you said, I experienced the

00:32:39.740 best and the worst of combat. I think a lot of people are familiar with to some degree as best they can

00:32:44.640 with what the worst of combat is, but what is the best of combat? So for me, the best of combat is I

00:32:50.040 walked into a city in the beginning of 2006, same thing with the army brigade that I supported, the

00:32:56.240 one-on-one AD, the same thing with the task unit bruiser from SEAL Team 3. We walked into an environment

00:33:00.740 where 400,000 civilians were gripped by an insurgency that was violent and unforgiving and

00:33:07.540 absolutely brutal. And 18 months later, after I left, obviously, but I was part of a commitment to

00:33:13.840 defeating an insurgency and basically giving the city back or helping give the city back

00:33:18.100 to a civilian population that was able to go back in relatively short order and live a normal life.

00:33:24.400 And I got to see what that looked like, you know, the efforts that we put in and the loss that we made,

00:33:29.780 the cost that we paid and the sacrifice that was made in that town, which has been replicated all

00:33:34.400 throughout history and all over the world. I got to see what the impact of that was. And when you see

00:33:39.620 kids playing soccer in the street, when you see people going to the voting booths, when you see

00:33:43.700 people thanking you or thanking other soldiers and Marines that have done that, and you recognize

00:33:49.100 that what you did actually made a difference and you were able to bring humanity back to an

00:33:54.560 environment where there was no humanity at all. That's why we do it. That's why we go to war.

00:33:59.080 That's the best side of it. It's a huge sacrifice, but it puts that in context. And then

00:34:02.900 the other part of it too is I'll tell you something else that combat and loss will do to you. It will

00:34:08.400 bring you home and it'll make you grateful that you're still alive. It'll put a lot of pressure

00:34:13.320 on you and it'll force you. But, but I think that's a good thing is to go live a meaningful life.

00:34:17.380 If you want to put other people's loss and give them value, go live a meaningful life,

00:34:22.960 go live your life every day, thinking of the Marines that you serve with that, that didn't come home.

00:34:27.300 And you tell yourself, I'm not going to waste a second of my life because, you know, somebody next

00:34:32.400 to me died along the way. I'm not going to let that sacrifice go in vain. So as hard as it is to

00:34:37.720 lose Marines, as hard as it is to see the downside of war and the ugliness of war, what it did for me

00:34:42.520 is it forced me and made me and drove me to live a valuable, important life. And I try every day to

00:34:47.600 do that. I don't think I'm, I'm as successful as I, as I should be. And I've got a long ways to go,

00:34:51.740 but I've seen what that does to people. For me, it's forced me to work a lot harder than I would

00:34:56.800 have. I got a lazy streak in me and thank God I don't fall prey to that lazy streak because the

00:35:02.180 people I served with didn't come home is the reason why I don't let that, that, that take

00:35:06.880 advantage of myself. It's such a powerful lesson. And I think it's one that's hard to replicate.

00:35:10.960 You know, it was really hard for me to come home and see the things that people worried about. And in

00:35:14.660 my heart, I was like, really that guy cut you off and that ruined your day. It was fascinating,

00:35:19.560 but it was also very difficult in a lot of ways to come back into a environment where we worry about

00:35:25.780 the most trivial of BS and nonsense when there are life and death situations and encounters and

00:35:32.880 struggles that, uh, our men and women are dealing with. Ryan, that's just an important point. And I

00:35:37.640 know that frustration. I have felt that I still at times feel that frustration and that feeling of

00:35:41.900 nobody's shooting at you. What's the big deal, or you don't even know how bad it can be.

00:35:46.040 And I've also realized too, that that's wrong because, you know, people know what they know

00:35:50.320 and what people need more than anything is people just need leadership. They need education. They need

00:35:55.140 an opportunity to understand and to grow. And if as a veteran, you come back and spend all your time

00:36:00.020 telling people that they don't know how good they have it and being upset at every little thing,

00:36:04.660 you know, or seeing people that get upset at every little thing and then casting blame and pointing

00:36:09.000 the fingers, you're actually not doing yourself any favors. You're just going to make yourself more

00:36:12.080 upset, more frustrated, more angry, and it's counterproductive. The best thing you can do

00:36:16.540 is, you know, live a meaningful life, give value to those that fell while you were serving with them.

00:36:22.040 And if there's ever an opportunity to educate, to train, to show, to teach, to lead, do that because

00:36:27.540 every person that comes to recognize that they can work harder and do better and their life could

00:36:32.240 actually be a lot worse every time you convert somebody and get them on the path, that's a win.

00:36:36.700 That's a good thing. And if your plan is, is just getting a conflict with everybody that doesn't see

00:36:41.540 the world the way that you do and just get upset when people don't get it. And yeah, they don't get

00:36:45.460 it, but you got to do something with that. You got to turn that into a positive. And so something I

00:36:49.100 recommend to all veterans is you got to get over that. I know it's hard, but you got to get over

00:36:52.860 that. You got to get past that and you got to lead. And when you lead and you take those experiences,

00:36:57.740 whether it's at work or at home or anywhere else, people will follow you and you'll take people that

00:37:01.940 don't have that context and you can help give it to them and help them live a more meaningful life

00:37:06.120 otherwise. And that's a powerful tool that we have, that experience in combat. That's a powerful tool.

00:37:10.540 We need to use that to our advantage. I mean, it isn't that a point of a warrior anyways,

00:37:14.480 to put themselves in a position and their communities and countries and that they live in,

00:37:19.580 in a position where they don't have to worry about some of the same things that our warriors do have

00:37:24.260 to worry about. We're, we're shielding from some of those experiences for the rest of the people we,

00:37:29.820 we care about. That's right. I'm glad, I'm glad that my kids are in a war-torn country. I'm glad

00:37:35.420 they live a comfortable, sheltered life. Now I have an obligation as a parent to not let them get soft,

00:37:39.960 to not let them get complacent. But yeah, I don't want war to be in my, my doorstep.

00:37:44.400 And I think there's a component of service that everybody that's ever volunteered knows. This is

00:37:48.080 a volunteer organization. Nobody made me do this and there's going to be some difficult times of

00:37:53.080 that, but there's also going to be some things that we get are unlike anything else. And I wouldn't

00:37:57.880 trade, I wouldn't trade anything for what I've gone through and what I've experienced. And there's

00:38:02.360 been some tough times, man. I know, you know that there's been some very difficult times and some

00:38:06.420 darkness you got to navigate through, but I wouldn't circle on that and give that back for

00:38:10.940 anything. How do you keep your kids from going soft? I give them nothing. That's the first rule

00:38:16.340 for kids. Don't give your kids anything. Yeah. Well, I mean, I say that sort of somewhat joking,

00:38:20.840 but in a lot of ways, I'm kind of serious. Like I, it's so easy to just provide and give them,

00:38:26.700 give anybody anything that they want. And every time you solve somebody's problem for them,

00:38:30.800 every time you give something to somebody that they could get for themselves, you're hurting them.

00:38:34.180 It's a parent that's hard, man. I love my kids. I want my kids to have everything,

00:38:37.660 every tool they want, everything they want. Of course I want them to have that,

00:38:40.760 but I understand that I'm not doing them any favors if that's what I do. I'm not helping them. I'm

00:38:46.140 actually hurting them in the long run. And it's easy to talk about it with other people. It's easy

00:38:50.280 to talk about in the business world, in the private sector. It's easy to talk about it with other kids

00:38:53.900 that you got to take the long game and recognize that you got to teach them the skills so they can

00:38:58.520 survive and thrive on their own. When it's your kid that changes the calculus a little bit because

00:39:03.280 that kid's looking at you and he wants something and you want to give it to him because it's your

00:39:06.360 blood, it's hard not to, but you can't, you've got to put them in a position where they have to learn

00:39:11.180 for themselves. And so I remind myself on a regular basis, my job is to have my kids be successful

00:39:17.020 adults. My job is to prepare my kids to be successful. And every time I think about doing

00:39:21.880 something for them, I think whether it will help them in the long run or not. And if it's not going to

00:39:26.380 help them, I try not to do it. Now, look, I'm not perfect, man. If I didn't say I never bought a kid,

00:39:31.940 a toy that didn't need a toy, I would be lying to you. But I actually work really hard at not

00:39:36.980 giving them things that A, they don't need and B, won't help them. And you know what? That's just

00:39:42.400 the story of life. You got to develop your kids so they can develop on their own. And the sooner

00:39:46.640 they can do it, the better. If you take the long view and think about what's really in their best

00:39:50.880 interest, we'd give them a lot less. I will tell you this. I got a nine, seven and a four-year-old.

00:39:55.720 My kids don't know anything about an iPhone. There's no electronics. They don't play video games.

00:40:00.180 You know, they, I'm fighting the good fight to not have them live this comfortable life. They

00:40:05.220 get outside, they work hard, they exercise. We had fun with it, but I certainly try to give them

00:40:10.160 the tools that will make them successful in the long run. How do you recognize, and this could

00:40:14.640 apply, I think, to children, but also employees, coworkers, friends, family, neighborhood, I mean,

00:40:19.500 you name it. How do you recognize when you need to teach and be an educator and when you need to

00:40:26.260 just throw somebody into the deep end and let them figure out how to get out of that situation?

00:40:29.680 Yeah, so what I've discovered is most times when people are struggling, when people are struggling,

00:40:35.400 what they actually need is help. Now, help doesn't mean that you do it for them. That's not what help

00:40:40.040 is. Help means that you teach them, you show them, maybe provide them some resources, get them some

00:40:46.560 assistance, maybe some more people, maybe some more equipment or tools or whatever it is, and it's all

00:40:50.760 scenario dependent, but help doesn't equate to doing it for them. And I think if you spend time with

00:40:57.080 people and you build a good relation with people and they start to reveal to you what they can and

00:41:01.220 can't do, what they need to get better, and you start to spend time with them and they learn and

00:41:05.100 they get better, you start to get a pretty good sense of what they're capable of doing. As their

00:41:09.060 capability grows, that means you back off. That means you step away farther and farther and give

00:41:13.880 them less and less and let them do more and more. And I think there becomes a point where you recognize

00:41:18.480 that when they're capable of doing these things on their own, that's when they're kind of in the

00:41:24.020 deep end. Now in a relationship, and I certainly would never put myself in a place where I've

00:41:28.140 extricated myself so much that I can't be there to salvage something that might create disaster for

00:41:34.360 them or disaster for the firm. I'm never going to let somebody fail so much that brings everybody

00:41:39.040 else down with them, but I'm certainly going to put people in a position where they are out of their

00:41:43.440 comfort zone. They may be very uncomfortable and may be unsure of their own abilities because when

00:41:49.220 they start to survive and thrive in those environments, that can be really powerful.

00:41:53.520 To do well when you think you're going to do well is not that big of a deal. To do well when you think

00:41:57.320 you're going to fail is an incredibly powerful thing. And as a leader, some of that is building

00:42:03.040 a situation and building a relationship with someone where you put them in a position where

00:42:06.340 they're in charge of something when they don't think that they can succeed. And when they do,

00:42:10.440 man, you are building a powerful, powerful person right there. The more effective your relationship is,

00:42:15.460 the more you know how much to back off and give them the latitude and the autonomy to go out there

00:42:19.160 and fail on their own. You want to manage that. I want my kids to be able to ride their bikes

00:42:22.920 around the street and I don't want them to get hit by a car, but I can't hold their hand every time

00:42:26.980 and you got to figure that stuff out. And the way you figure it out is by having a really good

00:42:29.900 relationship with them and knowing what they're capable of doing and understanding that help

00:42:33.140 does not mean doing it for them. That's not what help is. Yeah, that's a really interesting

00:42:37.040 perspective and one I hadn't considered, but I think a lot of people equate help and it actually

00:42:41.280 ends up turning into a hindrance, right? You're crippling people when you quote unquote help the way you

00:42:45.380 think you should. Yeah. I mean, you see it. I see it on my kids all the time. You know,

00:42:49.220 if my kids are incapable of doing something without me, I'm not helping them out. I'm hurting them

00:42:53.200 just like you described. And I think it's hardest with the people that we're closest to. And that's

00:42:58.640 when you have to work the most to make sure that you do that. It's hard with your kids because you

00:43:02.620 care about your kids. That's the deal. But to know what's in their best interest, if you think

00:43:07.200 about it, take a step back, it's actually not that hard.

00:43:09.220 Yeah. Men, one of the biggest reasons so many have joined the iron council is the accountability

00:43:16.140 and proximity to other men who are accomplishing big things in their relationships and their

00:43:21.960 businesses, just their life in general. I mean, so many of us have bought into this

00:43:25.700 lone wolf thing for so long and I did for a while too, but I realized that because I wasn't willing to

00:43:31.540 band with other men at the time, I was just limiting myself from perspectives and ideas that I just

00:43:37.820 didn't previously have access to. And I found myself feeling like there was, I don't know,

00:43:43.120 there was more to life, but not really knowing what that was. I couldn't quite put my finger on

00:43:47.740 it. If that's been nagging at you, I'd have you consider that you aren't likely to find the answers

00:43:52.720 that you're looking for on your own. I had to create what I was looking for. And all you have to

00:43:57.140 do is tap into it. It's called the iron council, 430 brothers who've raised their hands and said,

00:44:02.660 I want more out of my life. So if this sounds like you sounds like something you might be

00:44:07.500 interested, I would have you go check out orderofman.com slash iron council, orderofman.com

00:44:13.580 slash iron council. You can learn more. You can figure out everything that's included in your

00:44:17.820 membership. And then of course, lock in your seat. Again, that's orderofman.com slash iron council.

00:44:23.520 Go do that after the show guys. In the meantime, I'll get back to my conversation with Dave.

00:44:29.140 So then this begs the question, is there a place where you can get too close to people? And I'm not

00:44:34.340 talking about specifically your kids, but maybe you have employees or coworkers or people that you

00:44:39.200 manage in a project and getting too close actually becomes a hindrance. Without a doubt. I think

00:44:44.880 that's kind of a classic dichotomy. And as a matter of fact, that specific subject,

00:44:49.080 when you read Leif and Jaco's new book, then we talk about the dichotomy to leadership at

00:44:53.400 Echelon Front all the time. Which I have read, by the way, I got an advanced copy of that. So I have

00:44:57.480 read the book, which is, it's an incredible book. Yes. You got the inside manuscript. Good for you. I did.

00:45:01.920 I did. Yeah. So you absolutely can't be too close. And I think that fine line becomes evident when

00:45:07.700 those people you're close with expect to be treated differently than everybody else.

00:45:13.020 You know, which ironically is exactly what your kids expect. They expect to be treated differently.

00:45:17.520 I mean, I run across that when I'm coaching my kids, for example, my oldest, I've coached him

00:45:21.100 forever. And I make it a deliberate attempt to treat him not as my son, but as one of my athletes.

00:45:28.900 I think if you ask yourself the question, if you treated him differently and gave him preferential

00:45:33.480 treatment, would you really be doing him any favors in the long run when he goes off to all

00:45:39.060 these kids he's playing a little league with and now he's playing high school ball and you're not

00:45:41.540 the coach anymore. And all of a sudden he's got the reputation of the coach took care of him and

00:45:45.840 now he's in a tough spot and the other kids in his team, you know, are waiting for him to get his

00:45:50.020 comeuppance because he always had a good cause, cause dad was always taking care of him. It's obvious

00:45:53.760 that you're not helping them out. And yeah, you're right. You're making it worse for them. And any

00:45:57.660 relationship at work where when your folks that you're talking about start to think that you're

00:46:02.580 going to make it easier for them than other people, other people are going to have to endure more than

00:46:06.360 them, or you're going to pick them instead of somebody else. As soon as you create an environment

00:46:10.100 where they are so close that they expect to be treated differently or get a benefit from you that

00:46:14.480 you won't give anybody else, you've got a problem. Now you need to be close with your folks. You need

00:46:18.420 to know them really well, know what's going on in their lives, but you can't be so close that they

00:46:21.880 expect that. And if that's the case, you've got to redefine that relationship and make sure it's

00:46:26.000 understood. You're not just hurting them. You're not just hurting you. You're hurting everybody

00:46:30.380 else on the team as well. And that that's going to come full circle as a leader. It's going to be

00:46:33.400 a real problem for you if you can't create those, uh, those lines. Is redefining the relationship a

00:46:38.820 matter of just communicating that and then sticking to those communicated boundaries, or is it just

00:46:43.680 making that change? What does that look like? No, it's both. And first things first, if let's say

00:46:48.400 you as a leader, you've recognized that that's happened. So for whatever reason, you know, Ryan,

00:46:52.260 you're my favorite guy and I, I give you every Friday off or I don't give you the hard tasks or

00:46:56.320 I cut you loose early when you need it. And, but I don't let anybody else do that. As soon as I

00:47:00.240 recognize I've done that as a leader, the first step in the process is recognizing and telling

00:47:04.260 everybody, Hey, I've made a mistake. I've made an error here. And this is what I've done. I've

00:47:08.360 created an environment by which I've let some people on the team be treated differently than

00:47:12.660 others. That's my fault as a leader. I should not have done that. This is the problems that it's

00:47:16.400 caused. This is the lessons that I've learned from that. And here's what I'm going to do moving

00:47:19.760 forward. And then I'm going to start from there. I'm going to define the relationships. I'm going

00:47:22.920 to set very clear expectations. And then, like you said, then I have to prove that then I have

00:47:27.120 to actually do what I say I'm going to do. I have to implement and I have to live what I'm preaching.

00:47:31.600 If you're a leader and you're in that environment, the first thing you need to do is tell everybody

00:47:34.960 you've made a mistake, take ownership of that mistake, make it clear and let everybody hear you say

00:47:39.400 it. Because the one thing that I can tell you for sure is if you've created those relationships

00:47:44.020 and they're out of balance, everybody knows it. The people on the inside, you know,

00:47:49.200 your guys that are part of your team, they know it. And the people on the outside,

00:47:52.340 they know it as well. So it's no big secret that you're screwing this up. And the first thing you

00:47:56.280 need to do is let everybody know that you made a mistake. Then you move on to the, this is how it

00:48:00.940 works. This is the relationship. This is the definition. This is the boundaries. And this is

00:48:04.720 what we're going to do moving forward. Then it's go time. Then you got to prove it, you know,

00:48:07.800 because you're going to be under the microscope at that point. Cause they're already,

00:48:11.000 you've already lost some confidence and trust in them because you've done that already

00:48:13.680 for you to get that back. You better stick to your word and implement the way you say.

00:48:17.420 I mean, it's such a good point because I think it's very easy and I've been guilty of this too,

00:48:22.900 where I recognize something needs to be changed. So I make some changes in my own behavior and I just

00:48:29.220 kind of ignore everything that's happened in the past, hoping that it will just go away and it

00:48:33.640 really just goes away. Yeah. I know that feeling. It doesn't work. It just doesn't go away. Yeah.

00:48:39.740 And then there's something to be said for just for being assertive, you know, and I think that's

00:48:43.660 something a lot of guys need to work on because a lot of the things that we recognize in the,

00:48:47.300 in the men that we're working with. And of course, that are listening to this podcast is

00:48:50.480 some assertiveness issues and some confidence issues. And so it's, you know, it's easy to talk

00:48:56.780 about this and I hear you and I'm like, well, he's been doing this for two decades and obviously very

00:49:00.820 comfortable and assertive in your communication and leadership style. But how do you begin to develop

00:49:05.740 that when you've never been exposed to, for lack of a better term, confrontation and some of these

00:49:13.380 difficult conversations that need to be had? Well, I mean, look, confrontation isn't fun. I mean,

00:49:17.840 most people I know, even the most successful people I know, they don't like it. I mean,

00:49:21.560 I don't like confrontation. I don't enjoy the fact that, that that exists. But the first step I think

00:49:27.280 is just the recognition that that is just reality and conflict. Conflict is not by definition,

00:49:33.140 a bad thing. Conflict is just sort of a fact of life. You could look at conflict as competition.

00:49:37.840 I mean, any business in the world is, is, is competing over resources, competing over clients,

00:49:41.700 the schools we were applying to, we want to get into the best schools or we want competition is

00:49:46.480 just the way the world is. And competition doesn't mean that you're underhanded and you're going to

00:49:50.320 cheat the system or throw somebody under the bus. And competition doesn't have to be a negative

00:49:53.780 thing. But if you want to live in a world where conflict doesn't exist, you're going to be sadly

00:49:57.840 disappointed. So the first thing you need to recognize that conflict is out there and there's

00:50:01.980 nothing you can do to prevent it from happening. But what you can do is control how you act in that

00:50:06.800 environment. And just because you're in a conflict doesn't mean to be a jerk. It just means that you

00:50:11.060 got to address the problems that are being presented to you and you got to do it in a way that's what's

00:50:14.600 best for your team. And if you can move your relationship with the people around you to what's

00:50:18.500 in their best interest, that's actually what's in your best interest. So if you're in a leadership

00:50:22.800 position and you're thinking about what's best for you, you're going to lose. If you're thinking

00:50:27.520 about how you are going to win a conflict, you're going to lose. If you reverse that role and think of

00:50:31.820 what's in the best interest of your team, what's in the best interest in the individuals in your

00:50:35.740 team so they come together and work better, if you think about what's in the best interest of

00:50:39.020 the people around you, over time, their success is going to become your success. So conflict might

00:50:44.820 just be that you got to resolve something that's going on between two subordinates or resolve

00:50:48.260 something between you and a peer or maybe resolve something between you and your boss. But you resolve

00:50:52.200 it and take responsibility and ownership for it, that actually is the best thing you can do.

00:50:55.560 Because if you spend your life avoiding conflict, sooner or later that conflict is going to

00:50:59.140 consume you and overtake you and you're going to end up with nothing. And conflict is something

00:51:03.600 that doesn't have to be a bad thing. It just has to be something that you embrace and you engage

00:51:08.320 and you are aware of and you deal with. And that's how you are successful. And if you're a peacemaker,

00:51:13.780 great. That doesn't mean you get to skirt and skip around conflict that's out there. Maybe you want

00:51:18.560 to deal with it differently. You know, you may be a diplomat. I think that's fine. Better ways and worse

00:51:22.800 ways to deal with conflict. If your plan is to avoid conflict throughout your life, over time,

00:51:27.060 that conflict is going to consume you and you're going to lose.

00:51:29.280 I've thought about this over the past couple of days with regards to specifically conflict.

00:51:34.320 And I think a lot of people assume that they're just trying to keep everything good and happy and

00:51:39.840 help other people. But I actually believe that avoiding conflict is not about helping other people

00:51:45.800 feel comfortable. It's about helping you feel comfortable. It's a very selfish, self-centered way to

00:51:52.640 approach any conversation or relationship with another human being.

00:51:58.420 And I think we're in agreement. If you actually look to resolve conflict, if you recognize where

00:52:02.240 there's conflict, just think about, you know, with your wife or any good relationship that you have.

00:52:06.500 When you are the one that seeks to resolve that conflict, that's actually the best thing you can

00:52:11.980 do for everybody involved. It's the best thing you can do for yourself. It's the best thing you can do

00:52:15.700 for them. If you've got some sort of conflict brewing with someone in your life and you avoid it,

00:52:20.040 guess what happens to that? It just gets worse and more corrosive and more damaging. And you're

00:52:24.260 actually hurting them and hurting yourself. And so that demand that you place on yourself and look

00:52:28.820 in the mirror and say, look, I'm not going to avoid this. I'm going to deal with this head on.

00:52:32.000 I'm going to face this. I'm going to attack this problem, whatever it is, no matter who it's with,

00:52:36.640 it's what's best for everyone. Now, look, that doesn't mean you roll in and make sure they know

00:52:40.920 everything what's wrong with them and everything they screwed up and tell them everything that's bad.

00:52:44.200 It may mean you walk in and go, hey, this is my fault and I'm going to take responsibility for it.

00:52:48.900 It may be like, hey, look, this isn't working. Here's some things I'd like to work on. Can we

00:52:52.360 find some way for us to work well together here? Maybe somebody at work. Or if it's your wife,

00:52:57.200 find a way to improve that relationship. It's 100% in your best interest and it's in their best

00:53:02.020 interest too. And again, I go back to what we said earlier. If you're geared to avoid conflict,

00:53:07.340 over time, that conflict is going to consume you. You're going to lose the relationships that matter

00:53:10.640 the most because if you don't resolve what's going on, those things just get worse.

00:53:15.000 It's like that big elephant in the room. Everybody sees it. Nobody wants to talk about

00:53:18.800 it, right? It's there. Just address it and get it out of the way. And then you can move on with

00:53:22.240 what's important. It's like we said before. I mean, when I'm not getting along with my wife,

00:53:26.020 you know who else knows? Yeah. The kids know. Everybody knows. Neighbors know. Everybody knows.

00:53:30.980 Yeah. So who are you kidding? You know? So long before it ever gets to that point,

00:53:34.800 you just got to address it. And you know what? Yeah. It sucks sometimes. It's not fun. It's

00:53:38.540 uncomfortable. The alternatives are just sort of infinitely worse. And look, Ryan, once you start

00:53:44.360 to recognize that addressing conflict is good and it's beneficial, it actually strengthens your

00:53:50.100 relationship with the people around you. You get better at it. You get more comfortable at it,

00:53:54.160 just like everything else in the world. The more you do it, the more comfortable you get with it,

00:53:57.920 the better you are at it. And it becomes something that you can get really good at and dealing with

00:54:01.640 it and being effective and diplomatic and creating solutions to problems. The longer you avoid it,

00:54:06.760 the worse it gets. But if you embrace it and just recognize it's a part of life,

00:54:10.640 you actually can get pretty good at it. And if you're good at resolving conflict,

00:54:13.440 I got news for you. There's a job out there for you somewhere. You are going to do really well in

00:54:17.540 the world because a lot of people need leaders to resolve issues that are dealing with in their

00:54:22.700 companies and elsewhere. And if you're good at problem solving, you're good at conflict resolution,

00:54:26.740 you're going to be successful. Can you think of any scenarios where you've had to

00:54:31.240 potentially address some conflict with someone under your command where

00:54:34.840 they weren't having any of it or they weren't responding the way that you hope they would.

00:54:39.300 And it becomes a even worse situation. Talked about that subordinate relationship with someone

00:54:44.780 that works for you. And I've certainly been in positions where I've gone to a subordinate and

00:54:48.060 said, Hey, look, these things aren't working. And the first thing I start with is a subordinate

00:54:52.040 who is not having any of it or who's not really interested in doing anything. The very first thing I do

00:54:56.800 is I take ownership of the problem. Hey, look, I haven't done a very good job. I have failed here,

00:55:02.500 here, and here. I have not set expectations. I've not defined roles very clearly. I have not

00:55:06.900 given you the tools that you needed to be successful. I have not set you up to succeed

00:55:11.060 in this environment, whether it's in my squadron or wherever setting I could think of. And you let

00:55:15.460 that person know that the reason that person isn't doing well, the reason that person isn't,

00:55:18.860 isn't on board is because of you, because you haven't done the things that you need to set that

00:55:23.580 person out on the path to be successful. And then the next step in that process is to right then

00:55:28.780 say, but what I'm going to do now is I'm going to make it very clear and I'm going to set what

00:55:33.440 those expectations are, whether you're defining roles and responsibilities, setting expectations,

00:55:38.060 making it very clear what, what that person's job description is, whatever the situation is,

00:55:42.260 you then make it clear after letting them know it's your fault, what is expected of them next and

00:55:46.740 tell them where the bar is. And then from there, you know, I will interact with that person as much

00:55:51.580 or as little as I need to, you know, if I got to micromanage, I'll micromanage, but I'll make it very

00:55:54.940 clear. And you give that person an opportunity to be successful, give that person an opportunity to

00:55:59.940 embrace the roles that you set for him, make it clear. This is what the expectations are. This

00:56:03.580 is how it works. You're going to provide them everything they need up until the point that

00:56:07.200 person decides one of two things. He's going to be like, all right, I'm on board with this program.

00:56:11.680 You know, I wasn't super on board before he made it very clear, took responsibility for it. And I can,

00:56:15.480 I can get on board with that or I'm going to push back. And if that person pushes back enough and

00:56:19.640 you've exhausted every measure you have available to you. And now the amount of effort you're putting

00:56:24.420 into this person is starting to affect you or the team or hurt the people around you,

00:56:28.920 give that person an opportunity to go somewhere else. You know, not everybody gets a job. Not

00:56:32.640 everybody gets a paycheck. Not everybody gets to be on the team. When they demonstrate that they're

00:56:36.440 not on board, you get rid of them. When you don't feel bad about it, you cut them loose. But you start

00:56:40.500 by recognizing that it's your responsibility and you have ownership of that. You lay out those

00:56:45.940 guidelines. And if that person still isn't on board, we know what we need to do with that person.

00:56:50.320 But it can't be your instinct to just pull the trigger and get rid of somebody out of the gate.

00:56:53.240 You have to recognize that more than likely when somebody is not performing, somebody's not on

00:56:56.780 board, it's because of you. And I like that you frame it more. And now it's their decision,

00:57:01.820 right? Like if they're not willing to get on board, it's not you letting that individual go.

00:57:05.080 It's them deciding that they're not on board with the direction of the team. And it's their choice to

00:57:09.200 leave. Yeah. If you made it clear, this is how things are. And if you've gone through that process,

00:57:12.760 like I described, and they're just like, I don't care. I'm not interested in this culture. I'm not

00:57:18.140 interested in this approach or I'm not interested in insert, whatever it is. They're making that

00:57:22.240 decision for you. They're making it easy for you. And that's why we, when we say that's long

00:57:25.400 front, you get rid of somebody when you don't feel bad anymore. And when Ryan tells me, Hey,

00:57:29.640 I don't care. I don't feel bad anymore. As long as I've started with me and as long as I started

00:57:34.660 with the things that I need to do to solve this problem. And that person is still unwilling to do

00:57:39.080 that. I don't feel bad anymore. If God forbid, I'm letting him do stuff that hurts the other people

00:57:44.260 on the team or hurts the team in general, or hurts the organization. I'm actually failing as a

00:57:48.820 leader by keeping that person around. I got to get rid of that person. And it's like you said,

00:57:53.140 once those expectations are set and they're clear and they still don't have any interest in it,

00:57:57.700 that's no problem. We can, we can do something else with you. We can send you elsewhere.

00:58:00.960 We'll bring in somebody else that's on board.

00:58:03.200 This is another one of those dichotomies, right? You got to care about the people on your team,

00:58:06.500 but you also have to care about the mission. And sometimes the people on the team are detracting

00:58:10.020 from the ultimate mission.

00:58:11.080 Yeah. And if anybody on your team is hurting the mission, being successful, the team being successful

00:58:15.640 has to be your number one priority, has to be. Man, it just makes so much sense. And we could

00:58:19.500 go on and on about this because I love this stuff. And obviously this idea of taking ownership,

00:58:24.840 we've talked about it before, and we're going to continue to talk about it. And you and I are

00:58:28.240 going to have more conversations. But for the sake of time, I want to wind things down here a little

00:58:33.420 bit, but I want to ask you a couple of questions as we do. The first one I prepared you a little bit

00:58:38.100 for is what does it mean to be a man? Yeah, you mentioned that. And I kind of knew this was coming,

00:58:42.060 having listened to the podcast. I've thought about this a little bit, but look,

00:58:45.360 I have, I don't know what some of the other answers are. I have in my mind, what's actually

00:58:48.860 a pretty easy answer. Being a man means that you're on your game a hundred percent of the time.

00:58:53.000 You know, what's easy, man, what's easy to just go to work and just crank out for eight,

00:58:57.500 10, 12 hours. That's actually pretty easy. You know, what's hard, what's hard is to come home

00:59:01.580 after a long day, a long week, a long month, a long deployment of just grinding and grinding,

00:59:07.760 grinding. It's hard to come home and not tell your kids, Hey, dad needs 10 minutes to, uh,

00:59:12.140 to drink a beer and decompress. Hey, I need to tell my wife, I need a little bit of space.

00:59:16.920 Being a man means you're on your a game all the time. And if you're at work, then you're on your

00:59:20.680 a game at work. And if you're at home and you're a dad, then you're on your a game at home as a dad.

00:59:24.920 And if you're being a husband, you're on your a game and you're being a husband. Like, I don't

00:59:29.000 care what you, what your profession is. You don't need to be a fighter pilot in the Marine Corps or Navy

00:59:32.420 seal. It doesn't matter what you do, where you do it. What matters is that you were on your game

00:59:38.660 all the time. It is go time. And whatever role you're playing that day, whether it's taking your

00:59:42.720 kids to be a coach at little league, whether you're going on a combat deployment to Ramadi,

00:59:46.620 whether you're jumping into an airplane and flying off a carrier, or whether you're going on vacation

00:59:50.400 with your wife, you are engaged 100% on your a game all the time. Nobody has to suffer because

00:59:58.980 you need a break. Nobody has to take second seat to you need to decompress. Being a man means you're

01:00:04.560 on your game and you've given the people around you what they need, when they need it. And we talk

01:00:08.860 about work-life balance all the time. And, and, you know, I hear like, Oh, after a long day of work,

01:00:12.540 I need a little bit of time. You get to that doorstep, you take a deep breath, you leave work

01:00:16.420 at home and you walk in. And if you've got 25 minutes with your kids before bedtime, you give them

01:00:20.540 25 legit minutes. All too often we lose that balance. And being a man means you're on your a game all the

01:00:27.440 time, all the time, man. I really appreciate that perspective because it's so easy, right? It's so easy to be on

01:00:33.020 at work with the boys and cranking it out. Yeah. It's easy. Yeah. It's easy. What's calling at me

01:00:38.760 when I'm with my, with my kids, for example, well, I got the phone and I got my emails and I got this

01:00:43.020 person and then social media and this TV show. And so that is significantly more challenging to be

01:00:48.780 quote unquote on with my children when I can justify, Oh, just a quick break to check this email

01:00:54.440 real quick. So I'd really, really appreciate that perspective. Yeah. I just think all too often we lose

01:00:59.000 sight. Hey, I want to provide for my family. I want to be a good husband. I want to be a good dad.

01:01:02.960 I want to provide for my family. I want to pay the mortgage. I want to have a nice car. I want

01:01:07.000 to be able to give them the things they need. You know, that's all great. That's awesome. And I

01:01:10.280 think we should provide, I think that's really important for those of us that, that are lucky

01:01:13.880 enough to be able to work and deliver for their families. But if your plan is to use the, uh, you

01:01:19.560 know, outside of work as decompression time, I think you're doing it wrong. And it was easy for me to

01:01:24.280 work hard in the squadron. It was easy because I didn't mind it. And I was around a bunch of dudes

01:01:28.380 that were doing the same thing. A man can come home and deliver, you know, his best game,

01:01:33.800 no matter what he's doing. And if you're the type of guy that needs your wife and kids to take a

01:01:38.500 second place to, I got to decompress because I had a tough day at work, bro, put your a game on right

01:01:43.540 now and go give them whatever it is they need. And if you're, like you said, if you're, if you're with

01:01:47.320 them at a little league game and you're the coach, go coach better than anybody else that's out there

01:01:50.820 and set an example for your kids that it's go time all the time. There are no breaks.

01:01:55.540 That's such a good perspective. And you know what? I don't think we've heard anything

01:01:58.800 even close to that in my 170 times asking that. So it's powerful stuff, man. Well,

01:02:05.360 I hope so, man. That's good to hear. Oh, absolutely. I know you've got a couple of

01:02:08.900 events coming up. You've got a muster coming up. You've got a roll call coming up. Tell us

01:02:12.660 briefly what those are, when the dates are, and then we'll wind things down for the day.

01:02:16.940 Yeah, right on. So Echelon Front, as you guys know, the company I work with, I work with

01:02:20.380 Leif and Jocko and JP, some other great guys, JP Donnell, Mike Cirelli, Flynn Cochran,

01:02:24.900 and it's an awesome team. We do musters every year. What we have coming up is something called

01:02:28.580 the roll call, which is a one day deep dive into the same content that's in the book,

01:02:32.720 Extreme Ownership, and the same content that's at the muster. But it's a one day event for law

01:02:37.260 enforcement, uniformed personnel, firefighters, EMTs, National Guard, Border Patrol, September 21st in

01:02:43.540 Dallas. You can go to echelonfront.com to check that out. The muster, the next one is muster in San

01:02:48.100 Francisco. It's our muster number six, October 17 and 18 in San Fran. These things sell out all the

01:02:53.540 time. So if you're interested, you should go check it out now. And then if you really want to have

01:02:57.460 some fun, get up to the Origin, Maine, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, the Jiu-Jitsu immersion camp. Ryan and I

01:03:03.080 will be there grappling like crazy, a couple of white belts. But yeah, I get my butt kicked for a

01:03:08.180 week, man. It's going to, I've never been more excited about getting hurt and feeling the pain

01:03:12.420 than I am about this event. That's Jiu-Jitsu, man. It's like, I've never been so excited to get my,

01:03:16.260 get beat up, just get. That's right.

01:03:18.380 But, uh, which we will, you and I will for four straight days, August 30th to September 2nd.

01:03:22.920 And if you need to get ahold of me, it's super easy. Dave at echelonfront.com or on Twitter,

01:03:28.200 Instagram is David R Burke. And just it's B-E-R-K-E is commonly misspelled, or you can just

01:03:33.380 go to echelonfront's website and find me there. If anybody wants to reach out and talk to me,

01:03:36.760 that'd be awesome.

01:03:37.940 Right on. We'll make sure we link it up too. So the guys know where to go, but Dave, I got to tell

01:03:41.000 you, I appreciate you. I have been looking forward to this conversation for weeks now since we

01:03:45.620 initially talked and you did not disappoint, man. I really appreciate how you show up your

01:03:49.720 leadership, obviously your service to this country and who you are. Thanks for coming on the show,

01:03:54.080 man. It's awesome to be a part of us. Thanks for including me. And I'll be bummed if we don't do

01:03:57.140 it again. Gentlemen, like I had said before, what a powerful conversation with a man that I admire.

01:04:03.920 I respect. I've been able to sit down with him. I rolled with him a little bit in Jiu-Jitsu. He

01:04:08.140 kicked my butt all over the mat, but this is an incredible man with an incredible story

01:04:12.040 and experience life experience that can really help you in big ways. It's certainly been beneficial

01:04:18.920 for me. If you want to know a little bit more about what Dave is up to, check out Echelon Front.

01:04:24.060 This is the team with Jocko, Leif Babin, Echo, JP Donnell, and of course, Dave Burke. So guys,

01:04:29.740 check it out, echelonfront.com. Also go check out Jocko and Leif's new book, Extreme Ownership

01:04:35.320 and the Dichotomy of Leadership, because those books talk about some of the principles that Dave

01:04:41.020 covered in this conversation as well. So connect with me, connect with him on Instagram, Twitter,

01:04:45.760 Facebook, wherever you're doing the social media thing. Gentlemen, I'm glad that you're here. I

01:04:49.740 hope you took some stuff away from this. I hope that you become a better leader. That's the ultimate

01:04:53.460 objective I think we should have as men is to become effective leaders, effective leaders in our

01:04:58.400 families, our businesses, our communities, every single facet and area of life that we're showing up

01:05:03.760 as. And I hope this conversation helped you. As I do every week, guys, I just want to thank you.

01:05:09.060 I appreciate you being on here. I truly do. It just wouldn't be possible. And man, we need

01:05:14.440 this type of information. We need this brotherhood, the order more than ever. I look around in society

01:05:20.600 and I see a lot of great things, quite frankly, a lot of great things, but I also see a lot of room

01:05:25.560 and area for improvement. And that's what this podcast is all about. And that's what this movement

01:05:30.900 is all about. And that's why I'm honored to have you here. I learned just as much from you as

01:05:35.340 hopefully you're learning from me and my guest. So I'll let you get going. Make sure you guys

01:05:39.680 subscribe, leave a rating review. We'll be back on tomorrow for the Ask Me Anything with my co-host

01:05:44.760 Kip Sorensen and of course Friday for your Friday field notes. But until then, take action and become

01:05:49.680 the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You're ready to take

01:05:56.000 charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the Order

01:06:00.620 at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - September 18, 2018

Leadership Lessons Learned in Combat ｜ Dave Berke

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