Order of Man - Learning from the Great Ancients ｜ SCOTT HAMBRICK

00:00:00.000 We all have access to the world's greatest minds, philosophies, experiments, and ideas,

00:00:04.960 and all it takes for us to tap into these is to crack open what my guest refers to

00:00:09.840 as a great book and unlock the lost thoughts, ideas, and secrets to a successful life.

00:00:16.200 Today, I am joined by Scott Hambrick, founder of Online Great Books, to talk about how to best tap

00:00:21.180 into these great ancient works, how to extract the most value from them, where to start when

00:00:26.960 learning about ancient literature and philosophy, the benefits, of course, of reading the classics,

00:00:31.920 and what you can learn from the great ancients.

00:00:34.340 You're a man of action.

00:00:35.860 You live life to the fullest.

00:00:37.320 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:40.240 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:44.680 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:49.740 This is your life.

00:00:50.820 This is who you are.

00:00:52.280 This is who you will become.

00:00:53.580 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:59.700 Gentlemen, what is going on today?

00:01:01.020 My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of this movement and this podcast,

00:01:05.320 The Order of Man.

00:01:06.620 Man, I've gotten so many great messages from you guys over the past several weeks on the

00:01:10.060 guests that we have had on.

00:01:11.600 Today is no exception.

00:01:12.620 I've got a really interesting one and a conversation that, frankly, we just haven't talked about,

00:01:16.020 which is tapping into ancient literature and the great minds of the past.

00:01:21.420 So I think you guys are going to enjoy this one.

00:01:24.040 Not a whole lot of announcements today.

00:01:25.740 I really want to do a better job of just jumping right into the meat of the discussion.

00:01:29.400 So we'll get to that here in just a second, because I do want to make a quick mention

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00:02:06.800 And so it's better if I do this podcast then or have my podcast interviews then because they

00:02:11.840 seem to turn out better when I'm like that.

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00:02:46.880 including the hoodie that I absolutely love that my wife's keep stealing from me, but 1.00

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00:02:54.280 Anyways, guys, go check it out.

00:02:55.860 OriginMaine.com, OriginMaine.com.

00:02:58.400 Make sure also, if you're going to do any Christmas shopping for yourself or anybody else,

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00:03:13.820 So do that after the show though, because for now I've got a great one lined up for you.

00:03:18.380 My guest today, his name is Scott Hambrook.

00:03:20.560 I've known him for not too long, but I have been familiar with his work.

00:03:24.900 He's the founder of Online Great Books.

00:03:26.760 He's also a certified starting strength coach.

00:03:29.120 And I know a lot of you guys who listen to this are familiar with the starting strength

00:03:32.660 program, which we actually don't cover today.

00:03:35.180 So we may have to do another podcast down the road.

00:03:37.580 Today we cover the other side, the philosophical side of things.

00:03:41.780 Scott's an avid reader.

00:03:43.040 You're going to hear that from our conversation together today.

00:03:45.260 He's also a practitioner of the Socratic method.

00:03:48.740 You're going to hear him talk about that as well.

00:03:50.560 And actually take me through a little bit of that during this conversation.

00:03:54.600 So guys, I think you're going to enjoy this one.

00:03:56.580 And Scott's goal with Online Great Books is to introduce tens of thousands of people

00:04:02.040 to the great books of the Western world.

00:04:04.720 And being on this podcast is definitely a start towards that mission.

00:04:07.960 So sit back, take some notes.

00:04:09.600 You guys are going to want to do that.

00:04:10.760 And you're going to want to pick up some books after listening to this conversation as well.

00:04:14.080 I hope you enjoy guys.

00:04:17.260 Scott, what's going on, man?

00:04:18.240 Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:04:20.100 Thank you for having me.

00:04:20.880 It's a pleasure.

00:04:21.360 I'm always so flattered that people will let me take part in their platform and talk to their

00:04:25.980 people.

00:04:26.460 It's amazing what's happened with all this technology.

00:04:30.080 I'm still shocked by it.

00:04:31.160 I've been listening to podcasts and doing them now for years and years.

00:04:34.080 Every time I do it, I'm astounded.

00:04:36.900 It's pretty incredible.

00:04:38.320 I mean, we've only been going for three and a half years now.

00:04:42.460 And if you would have told me four or five years ago, this is what I would be doing for

00:04:46.200 a living, talking to people via Skype, I would not have believed you.

00:04:50.880 And in fact, it's funny because sometimes I'll run into somebody who doesn't know what I'm

00:04:54.740 doing and they'll ask, what is it that you do?

00:04:56.580 And I don't really know how to answer that question because I'm not crystal clear on what

00:05:00.120 it is I do yet.

00:05:01.200 But I'll say something along the lines of, you know, I have a podcast and I teach men

00:05:05.780 leadership principles.

00:05:07.200 And they say, oh, that's cool.

00:05:08.620 What's your real job?

00:05:10.840 Well, this is my real job.

00:05:12.320 And it's pretty amazing what we've been able to create using the technology that we have

00:05:16.600 available.

00:05:16.960 It's like AM talk radio used to be, except now we can niche down and speak directly to

00:05:22.160 the people that care about the things we care about, you know?

00:05:24.580 Yeah.

00:05:24.920 It's just the most fun.

00:05:26.000 It's the most interesting time.

00:05:27.400 I was born in 1974.

00:05:29.280 You know, it wasn't very long ago.

00:05:30.300 You would have had, I would have had to have written a letter to you and we would have had

00:05:33.160 this long drawn out correspondence back and forth and then maybe got to meet up in some

00:05:37.200 town somewhere and got to know each other and we can just, you know, snap our fingers

00:05:41.020 and do it.

00:05:41.500 It's amazing.

00:05:41.920 Well, and not only wrote a letter to me, but wrote a letter to some sort of gatekeeper

00:05:46.420 that would have allowed you access to the few individuals who have the voice, right?

00:05:52.380 Right.

00:05:52.640 I think there's power in, in having a voice and being able to share it.

00:05:56.680 And I think that obviously stretches throughout time and eternity, which is actually the subject

00:06:01.460 of, of what we're talking about.

00:06:02.800 And that's being able to tap into some of the greatest minds the world has ever known,

00:06:06.380 which is through these, uh, these classical books that we have access to in the teachings

00:06:09.920 that are available.

00:06:10.500 Well, shameless plug, I own this website, online great books.com.

00:06:14.700 And I created this thing to help people work their way through the Western canon to help

00:06:20.340 them read and learn from the greatest teachers that ever lived and better themselves every

00:06:25.320 day through the teachings of people like Plato and Aristotle, Descartes, Shakespeare.

00:06:30.080 We're, we can't do that stuff alone.

00:06:32.360 I've found, cause I tried for a long time and I think we found a good way to help people do

00:06:36.540 that in a community and help each other stay accountable and provide a sounding board for

00:06:41.200 people to, to learn from these books.

00:06:43.340 And that's what we do.

00:06:44.500 That's what we do every single day.

00:06:46.160 I think it's really valuable.

00:06:47.060 I know.

00:06:47.860 And I'll be the first to admit when you reached out and we connected about getting together

00:06:50.980 to do this podcast, I thought it would be good, but I thought it would be significantly

00:06:56.520 more valuable for me than probably a lot of guys listening because I will be and readily admit

00:07:01.220 that I have not studied a lot of the great historical literature.

00:07:07.460 So this is a good point.

00:07:08.780 And to that, I think part of the reason that is, is because busyness, right?

00:07:13.580 We get busy with so much that we have going on.

00:07:15.720 I think the understanding of how these great men and teachers spoke and used language is lost

00:07:24.600 in translation a bit.

00:07:26.260 And although I recognize value in it, it just becomes increasingly difficult in a world where

00:07:30.980 there's so much more that demands my attention.

00:07:34.120 I always wanted to do this, you know, gosh, since I was maybe 14, 15 years old, I, you know,

00:07:39.260 I really wanted to read Plato and I wanted to know when people talk about Plato, I wanted

00:07:43.660 to know what those people were talking about.

00:07:45.740 So I would, I dove into the Republic and tried to read it, failed.

00:07:49.360 And for the next 30 years, I kept digging into these books and failing.

00:07:53.900 And then finally I found the great books program.

00:07:58.060 And I learned that if you approach them in the right way and in the right order, they

00:08:02.740 build on each other.

00:08:03.840 And if you do that in a community, it's actually doable up until maybe the 1830s.

00:08:08.640 It's really how school was done.

00:08:10.260 You would read some Plato, you would read some Aristotle, you would read some moral works

00:08:14.120 by maybe like somebody like Cicero.

00:08:15.640 You would learn Latin probably to read those things and you might read some Shakespeare

00:08:20.600 in the Bible and some Euclid and then you were done.

00:08:24.420 And if you approach reading this canon and learning from these people in the right way,

00:08:29.560 you find that they scaffold on each other.

00:08:31.760 So you can kind of stick your toe in the shallow end and then wade into these works.

00:08:36.720 And pretty soon, you know, you've read Homer and you've read Herodotus and you've read

00:08:40.820 these Greek tragedies and you've read Plato.

00:08:42.860 And then when you get to Aristotle, he makes sense.

00:08:46.060 But if you just go pick up a volume of Aristotle at the used bookstore and crack that thing

00:08:50.020 open, it's literally Greek.

00:08:52.240 Yeah, yeah, right.

00:08:53.320 I had to do this for years and years on my own, started a group in my home with Brett

00:08:57.380 McKay and some other people.

00:08:58.700 And then we started reading these books together.

00:08:59.960 We've been doing it for four years now.

00:09:01.280 We've read like 13,000 pages and it's one of the most important things in my life outside

00:09:05.380 of my marriage and my kids, you know.

00:09:06.700 Why do you say it's the most important?

00:09:08.140 What do you feel has been the value and the benefit for you specifically?

00:09:10.920 Well, the community, there's a great conversation that takes place and it takes place between

00:09:16.340 the reader and the author.

00:09:18.340 And then also when you discuss these in a Socratic seminar, you have a conversation with these

00:09:22.800 other people either online in your seminar or in your living room.

00:09:27.360 And the community that develops there, it's almost like going to like group therapy.

00:09:32.360 If you read Plato and you read Plato's The Meno and he talks about what is virtue.

00:09:37.920 So if everybody in this group has an honest conversation about virtue, it's actually very,

00:09:43.440 very intimate.

00:09:44.060 You find out what people value the most.

00:09:45.780 You learn a great deal about that person way more than you would ever learn when they were

00:09:49.060 talking about the big game on Sunday or whatever, you know, BS that, you know, comprises

00:09:54.080 small talk, the community with those men has become very, very important to me.

00:09:58.780 And then these authors are almost like my uncle now, you know, it's like Uncle Socrates.

00:10:03.480 I read these people and they share what they knew with me and they sacrificed a great deal

00:10:08.260 to do it.

00:10:09.100 As I read these books, I often like I cry all the time.

00:10:11.700 I tear up because you think about how they had to write them.

00:10:16.240 Like Plato, when he was writing his dialogues, writing materials were terrible.

00:10:20.320 There's no eraser.

00:10:21.980 I mean, you know, you wrote thousands and thousands of words laboriously and then monks

00:10:26.440 and other people have copied these things by hand for thousands of years so I could get

00:10:31.620 them.

00:10:32.120 And there's the weight of history just weighs on me.

00:10:36.120 I think there's probably a level of scrutiny then as well that authors don't nearly receive

00:10:42.920 today.

00:10:43.580 I mean, I imagine that they're getting criticized, that they're potentially risking physical harm

00:10:49.020 to themselves, their family, and potentially even death in some of these writings.

00:10:52.520 Yeah.

00:10:53.000 Well, there's a great deal of scrutiny.

00:10:54.740 It's just a practical matter.

00:10:56.320 Like I have X amount of time.

00:10:57.820 I need to copy some books so my grandkids can have them.

00:11:00.640 Which ones am I going to copy?

00:11:02.140 You're going to start with the important stuff.

00:11:03.940 So you get the Plato, you get the Aristotle, right?

00:11:07.120 So just the sheer labor involved makes sure that we only got the best from thousands of years

00:11:12.880 ago.

00:11:13.400 And then, like you said, these people were under threat of death in some cases, you know, and

00:11:17.240 they probably hid these books and they're under their floorboards and in their attics

00:11:20.500 and took a great deal of risk sometimes to make sure their grandkids and their progeny

00:11:25.600 would have them.

00:11:26.700 So when I read, I mean, I think I'm nostalgic and soft maybe, but I think I have a duty to

00:11:33.060 honor that and to pass it on myself.

00:11:36.240 And I try to.

00:11:36.800 So I read, you know, about an hour every day.

00:11:38.760 And now that I've started on MyGreatBooks.com, man, I've got to read a lot closer because I've

00:11:41.940 got a bunch of smarties reading behind me, you know?

00:11:44.020 Yeah, I bet.

00:11:45.100 They really hold me accountable.

00:11:46.120 That level of accountability and giving you a push is important.

00:11:49.420 And I also think it's important that you guys are having these discussions because I think

00:11:53.100 more and more through the age of technology and social media, that long form discussions

00:11:57.740 like you're talking about here are few and far between.

00:12:00.340 But these are the types of discussions that will foster growth in ourselves and produce

00:12:04.860 some new perspectives that might help solve some of the biggest problems that we address

00:12:09.080 in modern times as well.

00:12:10.740 We want people to be able to talk about the things that are important to us and divide us.

00:12:14.780 These discussions that are about very, very important topics, but we're removed from

00:12:20.340 them, right?

00:12:20.760 When we can talk about what justice is in terms of a Socratic dialogue that Plato wrote, we

00:12:26.660 can talk about justice and get some distance from it.

00:12:30.160 And we don't get in an argument maybe about social justice warriors, right?

00:12:33.680 Or the Supreme Court.

00:12:34.900 We can talk about this with some degree of removal from it.

00:12:37.820 And it teaches us to be dispassionate.

00:12:40.700 It teaches us to be analytical.

00:12:41.680 And it teaches us to speak beautifully about these things.

00:12:44.920 I believe in the trivia.

00:12:46.660 I believe that it's valuable.

00:12:48.260 That's the three classical liberal arts, grammar, logic, and rhetoric.

00:12:51.720 Traditionally, people were educated with a liberal arts education.

00:12:55.560 Liberal meaning that which suits free people.

00:12:59.420 They were taught grammar, logic, and rhetoric.

00:13:01.700 And loosely, grammar is just the bones of a subject.

00:13:04.880 You know, the special words you use in certain trades, maybe, like the jargon.

00:13:09.880 That would be the grammar of the thing.

00:13:11.160 The logic is how all of these pieces are assembled.

00:13:14.360 And then rhetoric is how to speak convincingly or beautifully about that subject.

00:13:19.480 And another way to think of it is teaching.

00:13:21.080 You know, you don't really learn something until you teach somebody else.

00:13:24.140 So when we read these books the first time, we're kind of getting the grammar of the issues.

00:13:27.720 And then we reread them more closely.

00:13:29.360 And we start to understand the logic of what maybe Aristotle is saying about ethics.

00:13:32.940 And then when we go to the group and we have to speak convincingly and beautifully about it,

00:13:39.680 that's when we actually can help teach somebody else about what we read.

00:13:43.800 And that's when we really learn about what we just read.

00:13:47.660 That's when we put into action that which we just read.

00:13:50.800 Having that discussion makes our reading comprehension just skyrocket.

00:13:54.640 It's amazing.

00:13:55.820 There are books that I've read that I haven't had discussions about.

00:13:58.160 And then there are difficult books that I've read that I did have the discussion.

00:14:01.340 And the ones I discussed are the ones that own me and I own as well.

00:14:06.780 The component of logic is so important because that to me seems like a very dying skill set to have.

00:14:16.900 It's amazing to me how often an individual can say something.

00:14:19.780 And it can be so misconstrued and picked apart and looking for every little exception.

00:14:26.180 And people think they're talking about them when it has nothing to do with them.

00:14:30.000 And people are not exercising any sort of logic.

00:14:33.920 They're not incorporating any sort of context in the conversations that we're having.

00:14:38.760 And I think it's creating some real problems in conversation.

00:14:41.780 When you and I are talking about logic, if we both don't understand what logic is in a common way, we can't talk about it.

00:14:48.100 We just talk past each other.

00:14:50.180 And that's what happens.

00:14:51.400 You and I are both working on the Internet.

00:14:54.180 And there's a lot great about it.

00:14:55.760 It facilitates that talking past each other.

00:14:58.160 And I hate it.

00:14:59.260 I hate it for that.

00:15:00.940 I love it for so many other things.

00:15:03.400 So when we read Plato, more about logic here, when we read Plato, Socrates is his main character.

00:15:09.740 Socrates is his teacher.

00:15:11.120 And I think of him as my uncle.

00:15:12.820 I mean, he's the West's uncle.

00:15:14.720 Well, somebody would come up to him and say, hey, Socrates, do you think that virtue can be taught?

00:15:19.960 And then he would immediately just say, hey, King's X here.

00:15:22.700 What's virtue?

00:15:24.200 So anything that anybody ever brought to him, he made them drill down, drill down to their axioms.

00:15:30.940 He made them declare what they believed at the core of the subject before they would build on that.

00:15:35.380 But when you read these great books, and they all learn from Plato, Whitehead said that all of history is but a footnote to Plato.

00:15:42.820 You learn how to do that.

00:15:44.320 So when you read a blog post, you hear some stuff on the news or whatever, he trains us to pick apart what we're being told and what we're hearing and take it down to its most basic pieces and then reassemble it in our mind.

00:15:56.940 That's what the trivium teaches us to do so we can understand what the other person is saying. 0.98

00:16:00.720 And a lot of times it's bullshit, right? 0.99

00:16:02.260 Sure. 0.99

00:16:02.600 Yeah.

00:16:02.840 I mean, there's a lot of talking heads and little talking points that we articulate that we don't even truly understand or believe.

00:16:08.820 Reading these tough books by these really smart people, which often contradict each other, by the way.

00:16:13.620 So Plato comes up with his idea of what truth is and how you make truth claims.

00:16:18.580 And then Aristotle throws it all out and rebuilds it.

00:16:20.620 But when you read that stuff and you see these guys fighting it out over the millennia, it installs a heavy-duty BS detector in your own mind because you see the greatest just going head-to-head in this arena of ideas.

00:16:34.600 So this is why this is so important to me.

00:16:36.100 It's such a big part of my life.

00:16:38.140 It changes the way I've looked at everything.

00:16:40.220 I imagine these guys, not only do they contradict each other, but I imagine they also at times contradict themselves because they are so willing to explore their own belief system.

00:16:50.980 Is that accurate?

00:16:52.080 Yeah.

00:16:52.640 More about Plato.

00:16:53.840 He wrote his whole life.

00:16:55.240 There seems to be kind of an early, mid, and late Plato.

00:16:58.340 And he wrote The Republic.

00:16:59.200 And it's a utopian exploration of what he thinks or what Socrates thought that government maybe should be.

00:17:06.520 And there are some people that say it's actually satire and it's all a big joke.

00:17:10.320 And it's really hard to tell when you read it.

00:17:12.220 And he describes this totalitarian regime where scoop all the kids up and raise them in common somewhere, take them away from their parents.

00:17:18.920 And it's madness.

00:17:20.140 But then later he writes about his laws, and he contradicts almost everything that he wrote in The Republic.

00:17:26.280 He was an older Plato.

00:17:28.160 So you also get to see him fight it out with himself.

00:17:31.040 So you don't believe Republic is satire then?

00:17:32.880 Am I understanding that correctly?

00:17:34.420 Man, I don't know what I believe.

00:17:35.580 I've probably read it five times, probably three of those times I didn't think it was satire, and twice I did.

00:17:41.940 So I'm going to have to read it two more and see what I think.

00:17:45.640 Yeah, that's interesting.

00:17:46.740 It makes a lot of sense.

00:17:47.580 And I think it's indicative of a great thinker and a virtuous individual who's willing to examine what they've previously held.

00:17:55.240 I think so many people, and I've been guilty of this, I'm sure you have as well, and everybody listening, is that we double down when we feel threatened.

00:18:01.860 Right?

00:18:02.340 Right, and so rather than explore the idea that maybe we're wrong, we double down on it and actually compound the problem.

00:18:08.660 Yeah, our experience of ourselves seems to be the experience of the content of our mind.

00:18:14.620 You are who you are because of your thoughts.

00:18:16.980 Your thoughts are your experience of being Ryan.

00:18:19.420 Mm-hmm.

00:18:19.720 And when you find out that your thoughts might be wrong, it's like an existential threat.

00:18:24.680 You feel like you're going to get annihilated because all of that which you identified as yourself, all these things that you thought you believed and held to be valuable, might be wrong.

00:18:34.780 And it's very threatening.

00:18:36.700 So these guys, Aristotle, Descartes, Kant, when you read them carefully and you fight it out with them in your head, they let us be a lot more comfortable with ambiguity in our own thought.

00:18:48.480 They let us be a lot more comfortable with changing our minds.

00:18:50.940 And they let us be a lot more comfortable with being wrong.

00:18:53.620 Yeah.

00:18:53.960 And going to a discussion group about this and butting heads with some other people really helps that.

00:18:59.260 Oh, I bet.

00:19:00.640 I mean, because you've really got to flush out and you've got to know your stuff. 0.92

00:19:04.220 Otherwise, you're going to get completely destroyed, essentially.

00:19:08.320 So you've got to really know what it is you believe and be able to back that up, verify it.

00:19:13.240 Every great books discussion group I've ever been to was kind and gracious and everybody's there on equal footing.

00:19:18.540 They're never acrimonious.

00:19:20.560 But, you know, if you say something wrong and somebody says, hey, wait a minute, what do you mean by that?

00:19:24.700 What premises?

00:19:25.440 Like, how are you getting there?

00:19:26.900 Walk me through it. 1.00

00:19:27.860 And when you can't, your ass is just hanging out. 0.99

00:19:32.140 I mean, it's a very, very vulnerable state. 0.99

00:19:35.040 But through going through that, I think we become much more rigorous and much more vigorous thinkers.

00:19:40.400 Who doesn't want that? 0.53

00:19:41.980 Well, I think there's two outcomes that come from this idea.

00:19:44.840 And I think they're both good.

00:19:46.040 The first outcome is that you solidify your position and you're more convicted in that.

00:19:50.280 And that's a good thing.

00:19:51.500 The second outcome is that you have exposed yourself to something you didn't previously consider.

00:19:56.080 And now you have more information to make a more informed decision, which is also a win.

00:20:01.120 I don't think if you're respectful and you're coming at it from the right place that you can lose in a situation like this.

00:20:08.180 No, I don't think you can either.

00:20:10.460 Let's say you read The Republic again and you learn something about what your theory of government is, like what you think government should do and what's proper for government.

00:20:18.180 And you nail it down.

00:20:19.040 You say, well, this is why I think it.

00:20:20.460 And later on, you go read Aristotle's Politics and he changes your mind.

00:20:24.880 It's actually easier to change your mind because you know what you thought before.

00:20:29.440 You know why you believe the things you believe.

00:20:32.440 And so if Aristotle breaks one of those things that you used to build your opinion, it's actually easier to change your mind later.

00:20:40.780 If you put a stake in the ground here, it's easier to figure out where there is.

00:20:45.560 And I imagine, too, and I don't know how to quite articulate this, but is it best to detach yourself from your thoughts in a way like you don't necessarily identify with your current beliefs?

00:20:57.340 I don't know if I'm saying that the right way.

00:20:58.700 I hope you understand what I mean and the question I'm asking.

00:21:00.920 I think that there's almost something Eastern about it, you know, Buddhist about it.

00:21:05.740 We start to say, well, this is what I think now.

00:21:08.720 I'm not my opinion.

00:21:10.160 Right.

00:21:10.280 This is not who I am.

00:21:11.480 This is what I think.

00:21:12.080 That's not who I am.

00:21:12.680 My best effort has gotten me here, and this is what I think for now.

00:21:16.580 After being proven wrong several times at surviving it, we're able to experience ourself as something separate from opinion.

00:21:25.180 It didn't wreck your universe that you were – it's like the quote, one of my favorite quotes is, never let me fall into the vulgar trap of believing that I'm persecuted each time I'm contradicted.

00:21:36.040 Right.

00:21:37.000 Socrates said the only thing that he knew is that he didn't know anything.

00:21:40.620 I think that's the central teaching of Plato and Socrates is that you probably just really don't know, and that's okay, and that's okay.

00:21:48.100 Are there certain people that – I'm sure everybody can develop this skill to an extent, but I imagine also that there's certain people that either can't or don't want to or don't have the capacity or figure that the information they have is enough.

00:22:02.960 You know what I'm saying?

00:22:04.160 Like I don't know if this takes a special philosophical mind to be able to engage in these types of conversations, discussions, and readings.

00:22:11.980 Well, I don't know, but I have an opinion.

00:22:14.960 I could be wrong.

00:22:15.580 I would love to – it's what you believe right now, right?

00:22:18.100 What I believe right now.

00:22:18.900 What I believe right now is that these books, the great books – maybe we should talk later about what great books means – have something in them for everyone.

00:22:27.340 And if you come to them in a generous way, you know, where you think that they have something to offer and you're going to hold judgment on it until you understand what the guy is saying, I think anyone can benefit.

00:22:36.540 I think a sharp 13-year-old kid can read The Republic and enjoy it and kind of start to navigate the vocabulary – remember the grammar logic and rhetoric – sort of the vocabulary, the grammar of theory of government.

00:22:53.040 Is he going to get the same thing out of it that somebody that's 63 years old and an attorney who has been in the criminal courts for decades was to get out of it?

00:23:01.400 No.

00:23:01.720 But these books are so good that they tend to meet everyone where they are.

00:23:07.060 If you're willing to work on it, there's something in it for you.

00:23:10.560 And if you read the Iliad, it could be just an action adventure or it could be about duty.

00:23:15.420 It could be about marriage and duty to the state versus the family.

00:23:19.680 There's so many themes in it that there's something in it for everybody.

00:23:23.140 That's interesting.

00:23:24.000 And based on where you are and your level of maturity and your current perspective, you're going to take something else out of it that another person might not.

00:23:32.440 Yeah.

00:23:32.800 We have a gentleman who's in his 80s that one of my great books and the first book that we read is the Iliad.

00:23:38.180 Paris and Hector are some of the main characters, some of the main Trojans.

00:23:42.060 And Paris steals Helen away.

00:23:45.220 And then Hector is their most powerful soldier.

00:23:48.640 And their father, their father mourns these kids.

00:23:53.300 Priam mourns, you know, what's befalling his city and his children and his progeny.

00:23:58.520 And I'd never really thought about what Priam has to say in this book.

00:24:03.040 And this 80-year-old gentleman, I think he's 83, was talking about all of that sort of end-of-life stuff.

00:24:08.860 This thought, this stuff about your children, your grandchildren, your legacy, concerns for civilization.

00:24:14.600 You know, so this older gentleman, and we get discussed, we had a discussion, right?

00:24:18.980 We all come into this chat room and we all have this discussion about it.

00:24:21.880 So I got to hear what this guy got from that.

00:24:24.060 And I'd never thought of that before because that's not where I am yet.

00:24:27.120 But that's where he was.

00:24:28.320 And it wrecked him.

00:24:29.500 You know, we were just all in tears before he was done talking about it.

00:24:32.240 Yeah, I could definitely see how that would change based on where you are.

00:24:35.220 I mean, I think about my own life, you know, being a father, for example, my perspective on being a child has changed and what's significant and what's important just based on where I currently am.

00:24:45.600 Yeah, so you're a father.

00:24:46.940 In book six of the Iliad, Hector goes back to his apartments where his wife, Andromaca, and his son are.

00:24:53.580 And his son's a baby, not even crawling around yet, I don't think.

00:24:56.720 And she says, don't go back out there and fight.

00:24:59.120 Don't do it.

00:24:59.980 And he says, but I have to.

00:25:01.640 You know, I have to do it for the city.

00:25:02.720 I have to do it for you.

00:25:03.680 And she's like, no, you don't have to do it.

00:25:05.700 And here's why.

00:25:06.460 This drama plays out in their apartment.

00:25:08.780 And it's about his job and what he thinks his job is, what she thinks his job is.

00:25:13.620 It's heartbreaking.

00:25:14.920 Her name's Andromaca, which means man fighter, by the way.

00:25:18.280 Interesting.

00:25:18.480 Okay.

00:25:19.260 And they go at it.

00:25:20.460 And spoiler alert, the Trojans lose.

00:25:23.360 Right. 1.00

00:25:23.840 The Greeks kill the baby and throw him over the wall. 1.00

00:25:26.540 Oh, really? 1.00

00:25:27.160 Jeez, I didn't know that.

00:25:28.680 Yeah.

00:25:28.860 It's not in the Iliad, but later on you get to read of that and some of these other works.

00:25:33.680 Yeah.

00:25:34.220 Pretty brutal.

00:25:35.060 Pretty brutal stuff.

00:25:36.000 But I think it has to be in a way too, because that's how we learn, right?

00:25:39.040 We learn through story, through tragedy.

00:25:41.300 We learn through the realities as gruesome and difficult as they are to bear at times.

00:25:46.540 That's what makes an impact.

00:25:47.760 I mean, it's the same reason that I teach my kids about difficult things that they may run

00:25:52.080 across, whether that's the potential for kidnapping or finding themselves in a violent situation.

00:25:56.260 I don't want them to be exposed to that stuff, but they need them to be exposed to it

00:26:00.240 so they can prepare themselves.

00:26:02.120 If you can expose your kids to some of these ideas about proper use of violence and how

00:26:06.680 to comport yourself in those situations.

00:26:08.440 In a book, that's a whole lot better than getting stabbed somewhere to learn those lessons.

00:26:13.760 Yeah.

00:26:13.880 You don't want to learn that lesson the hard way.

00:26:15.340 We can learn it through others.

00:26:16.880 That story there in book six of the Iliad about the husband and the wife and the baby

00:26:20.140 and talking about war.

00:26:21.200 It's so important because now we can conduct war like a video game.

00:26:25.160 We can have these drone strikes and we're much more removed from it than those men were.

00:26:30.800 If young people can read about the heartache involved, I think all of society will benefit

00:26:35.820 if people have a deeper understanding of how it seems like it's a given that it's super

00:26:40.620 violent.

00:26:41.040 We all understand that.

00:26:42.280 But do we really understand it?

00:26:43.600 Yeah, unless you've experienced that intimate side of it, it would be very difficult for

00:26:48.560 you to understand.

00:26:49.340 And I think it allows us to tap more into our humanity when it comes to the way that

00:26:53.140 I believe we show up as men, which is to serve and at times to be violent, but also to be

00:26:58.140 empathetic and to be kind and lead with sacrifice and honor and commitment and all of these virtues

00:27:04.820 that we can display.

00:27:05.600 What is virtue?

00:27:07.480 That's what Socrates would say.

00:27:08.780 Wait a minute, Brian, what's virtue?

00:27:10.460 Don't be pulling the Socratic method out on me now here.

00:27:12.580 Don't put me on the spot because I imagine, you know what, that's actually pretty challenging.

00:27:16.080 That is a good question.

00:27:17.640 For me, if I were to define what virtue is, it would be a, hmm, how would I define that?

00:27:24.720 A generally looked at positive characteristic or quality that produces moral outcomes.

00:27:32.740 I guess that's how I would define that.

00:27:34.440 How do we know if it's positive though?

00:27:36.940 Like what's our measuring stick that we would get?

00:27:39.440 Well, hopefully there's a collective.

00:27:40.920 I would think that ultimately would determine that, you know, I have to, for example, for

00:27:46.260 my family, since I am at the head of my family to determine a positive outcome, I'm solely

00:27:50.820 responsible for that.

00:27:51.700 I guess I would say in collaboration and partnership with my wife for humanity, I think it's got to

00:27:57.560 be a collective understanding or definition.

00:28:02.240 We'll see.

00:28:02.900 Socrates would just keep drilling down.

00:28:04.440 That's what he would say.

00:28:05.220 So do we have two different virtues then?

00:28:06.840 Do we have one for like, that pertains to the family and then one that pertains to the

00:28:11.480 polis, like the city state, the government?

00:28:15.040 Well, the way I would answer that is I would say that our individual virtues generally will

00:28:22.060 be indicative of society's virtues, which is why I think in the US and I'm sure throughout

00:28:28.140 the world as well as, you know, talk about morality, for example.

00:28:32.900 I think individual morality has declined.

00:28:36.940 Therefore, society's morality has declined in proportion to that.

00:28:41.780 So society is made up.

00:28:44.240 What is society, right?

00:28:45.600 Like you can't point to one.

00:28:46.900 Sure.

00:28:47.320 It's a figment.

00:28:48.420 Really.

00:28:48.880 We use the word society to make it easy to talk about large groups of people.

00:28:52.960 Mm hmm.

00:28:53.360 Mm hmm.

00:28:53.820 And I've been guilty of using it like a blanket term without really defining what it is I'm

00:28:57.320 talking about.

00:28:57.820 Oh, it's really the only way we can talk about big groups of people.

00:29:01.500 You know, we can say hordes or crowds or whatever.

00:29:05.420 But you still have to define that too, right?

00:29:07.000 Yeah.

00:29:07.340 Yeah.

00:29:07.880 So you would say that then the morality of the society is aggregated from individual

00:29:13.100 decisions that people make then.

00:29:16.040 I can see just going through those last couple of questions that this would be a very intimidating

00:29:20.500 process for people.

00:29:21.880 Very intimidating, very challenging, but also very enlightening.

00:29:26.960 I actually experienced this as I wrote my book.

00:29:29.920 There was some statements and some thoughts that I had articulated through social media,

00:29:36.220 Facebook posts, Instagram, things like that.

00:29:38.340 And then as I started to write these things down, I had to ask myself, do I really believe

00:29:42.760 this?

00:29:43.100 What does that mean?

00:29:44.100 Do I really believe it?

00:29:45.240 Because now instead of just throwing a statement out, I have to actually back it up.

00:29:49.560 Yeah.

00:29:49.620 That's that rhetoric trunk.

00:29:50.860 You know, when you have to convey to another consciousness of those things that you're thinking,

00:29:55.000 man, you got to get your ducks in a row.

00:29:57.560 That's the piece that's so often missing in, you know, individual study, you know?

00:30:02.780 And so when you write like you did, man, you know, it just makes you step your game up.

00:30:07.260 Yeah.

00:30:07.440 Or if you go, you know, speak to other people that care about the same things or, well,

00:30:11.340 or even worse or even more difficult, care about different things.

00:30:13.940 Yeah.

00:30:14.580 Yeah.

00:30:14.940 And, you know, it makes us really tighten our game up.

00:30:17.580 Yeah.

00:30:18.320 Yeah, definitely.

00:30:19.140 It's almost like group therapy.

00:30:20.260 It really is.

00:30:21.540 Yeah, it really is because people are asking you to start working out your own issues.

00:30:26.500 Yeah.

00:30:26.780 But it's a lot of fun, actually.

00:30:28.480 It's a lot of fun, you know, getting to see how other people think, sharing your thoughts

00:30:33.020 in a place that's fair minded. 0.72

00:30:35.020 You know, if there's a troll in there, we'll kick them out.

00:30:37.140 And we haven't actually had any trolls. 0.93

00:30:39.040 But if we did, we'd kick those folks out.

00:30:41.300 So, you know, we want to make sure that people, I mean, that it's truly a safe space.

00:30:44.600 It's a place where you can go screw up a whole bunch.

00:30:47.340 There aren't really very many places like that.

00:30:50.240 You know, as a dad, you can't screw up much because their stakes are high.

00:30:53.400 Sure.

00:30:54.100 Yeah.

00:30:54.480 There's grave consequences for messing up.

00:30:57.080 Yeah.

00:30:57.560 But, you know, you go to seminar and you got some ideas.

00:30:59.560 You say, man, I just don't get this piece.

00:31:01.420 Go through it.

00:31:02.120 Say, I don't understand it at all.

00:31:03.940 I think this is what it means.

00:31:05.900 And then people commence to help you clean it up.

00:31:08.780 You know, it's just a lot of fun.

00:31:10.340 You get to know how people work and how they think.

00:31:12.260 And it's way better than watching TV.

00:31:14.460 You know, I imagine to your point about trolls, I imagine one of the reasons that you don't

00:31:19.860 get these trolls is because it requires effort.

00:31:24.160 It requires critical thinking and it requires somebody to exert themselves.

00:31:28.000 And that's not typically what a troll is willing to do.

00:31:30.320 They take quick shots, easy jabs, but they aren't willing to engage intellectually, which

00:31:35.540 I think the barrier for an intellectual discussion keeps the trolls at bay.

00:31:39.340 You know, I don't know that these conversations are actually that intellectual, but they got to

00:31:42.820 be honest.

00:31:43.460 You really have to say the things that you think.

00:31:46.100 And if you don't, you get busted.

00:31:48.660 You know, if some troll comes to one of these seminars and says, LOL, whatever, dude, the

00:31:53.040 whole room gets quiet and says, hey, what do you mean? 0.92

00:31:54.360 Whatever.

00:31:55.400 Yeah.

00:31:55.740 Yeah.

00:31:56.700 Yeah.

00:31:57.060 That's a tough spot.

00:31:57.920 That's an uncomfortable spot to be in.

00:32:00.000 Right.

00:32:01.180 Is there ground rules that you have in these types of discussions, whether it's a seminar

00:32:04.880 that you're leading or even if you're doing it online, is there ground rules and rules,

00:32:10.580 guidelines that you have in place to facilitate these discussions?

00:32:13.460 The first one was to always want them to be fun.

00:32:15.320 And then beyond that, we don't ever talk about any living political figures or current events.

00:32:19.560 Interesting.

00:32:20.040 So we wouldn't talk about, you know, Trump, but we might talk about Churchill or Napoleon

00:32:24.780 or some other political figure in the past.

00:32:27.180 That's an interesting rule.

00:32:28.180 I have not even slightly considered that, but I could see how that would be valuable.

00:32:32.400 Yeah.

00:32:32.880 No living political figures.

00:32:34.700 Then we have to speak authentically.

00:32:36.320 We don't want anybody being the devil's advocate for sport.

00:32:39.180 You know, if you're being the devil's advocate, there's actually probably somebody in the seminar

00:32:42.780 can actually play that role in an authentic way.

00:32:46.020 Yeah.

00:32:46.600 That doesn't have to pretend to be the devil's advocate.

00:32:49.020 Yeah.

00:32:49.600 Yeah.

00:32:49.780 There's somebody in there that just disagrees wholeheartedly.

00:32:52.200 And so that leads me to the next rule, which is if you disagree, you need to go first.

00:32:56.600 How do you foster that courage?

00:32:57.900 Because that takes a look at if you're at a seminar and let's just assume we'll just

00:33:02.180 use some numbers here.

00:33:02.860 If you're 80% of the seminar believes one way and you're among the 20% who believe something

00:33:06.960 different, that takes a lot of courage to stand up and say, no, no, no, no.

00:33:10.340 Here's how it really is.

00:33:11.860 It does.

00:33:12.260 I won't sugarcoat that.

00:33:13.920 It does.

00:33:14.700 The way we try to do it is we try to, as a seminar host, as somebody that's kind of

00:33:19.200 facilitating that conversation, we want to role model this honest inquiry.

00:33:25.900 And we want to bring up the things to the group that we don't agree with.

00:33:30.800 And the things, we want to bring up the things to the group that we don't understand about

00:33:34.000 the books.

00:33:34.600 We try to be the first among equals and show the shared inquiry model.

00:33:39.360 So we never teach.

00:33:40.260 That's another one of our rules.

00:33:41.140 We never teach.

00:33:42.040 So even though I might've read The Republic several more times than you have, I would

00:33:45.940 never want to teach about it or tell you what I think about the thing unless you ask

00:33:49.300 specifically.

00:33:50.220 But I'll darn sure ask the questions that bug me about the thing.

00:33:53.720 So we try to role model that for our readers.

00:33:56.140 And you found that that gives them permission then to go ahead and do the same thing.

00:33:59.420 Yes.

00:33:59.780 We're all people.

00:34:00.800 So the thing that bugs me is probably the thing that bugged you too.

00:34:03.600 Yeah.

00:34:03.760 Great point.

00:34:04.400 You know, so we can often kind of flip that rock over.

00:34:06.960 I've actually thought about this with, with music.

00:34:09.380 I was listening to some music the other day and I can't even remember the song, but I

00:34:12.280 was like, man, this is a good song.

00:34:13.560 And it was a hit.

00:34:14.460 I'm like, well, other people think this is a good song as well, but we didn't collaborate

00:34:17.880 on deciding that this was going to be the song.

00:34:20.880 We just liked the song.

00:34:21.900 And everybody collectively, or the majority, I will say likes the song.

00:34:26.420 It's just interesting that we don't need to collaborate on what we believe.

00:34:30.540 I just think there's a large percentage of people who, like you said, this is what bothers

00:34:35.560 them or this is what they like.

00:34:37.380 They don't even know why.

00:34:39.120 They can't even articulate why it's just something that resonates with them or doesn't resonate.

00:34:43.680 Like Nickelback.

00:34:44.900 Yeah, that's right.

00:34:46.420 Exactly.

00:34:47.180 Exactly.

00:34:47.940 There's no explaining Nickelback.

00:34:49.920 That's an interesting one because they're just the band that everybody loves to hate.

00:34:53.640 People like their music, but nobody wants to admit that they like their music because

00:34:58.080 it's cooler to say, I don't like their music than it is to say, I do.

00:35:00.880 It's weird.

00:35:01.500 I don't understand.

00:35:02.160 That's been something that's been on my mind.

00:35:04.420 Yeah.

00:35:04.520 That Nickelback has been kind of fun to kick around for, I don't know, 15 years now.

00:35:09.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:09.920 Poor Nickelback.

00:35:10.920 I have a feeling they're doing okay.

00:35:12.400 Yeah, they'll be all right.

00:35:14.240 I do want to address the Socratic method and Socratic seminar, I believe you called it.

00:35:19.940 The way that I understand it is that you're encouraging and fostering discussion through

00:35:26.080 the asking of questions, but I'm sure that you can elaborate more on that.

00:35:30.440 Yeah, that's the idea.

00:35:31.360 We read Plato and particularly these kind of early dialogues like Domino, Socrates is

00:35:38.140 asking these questions and he really exposes the big questions of philosophy, like what

00:35:45.420 is justice?

00:35:46.160 What is virtue?

00:35:47.020 How do we know something?

00:35:48.440 Where did all this come from?

00:35:49.820 What does language mean?

00:35:51.440 He kicked all the dirt off of the big questions in those early dialogues and we get to see

00:35:55.920 him role model how to honestly pursue those questions.

00:35:59.240 And, you know, in the last about 120, 130 years or something like that, the Socratic method

00:36:05.100 has kind of picked up again and a lot of law schools use it and we use it and we don't

00:36:12.480 use just a strict Socratic method.

00:36:14.600 Like if you read Socrates in those early platonic dialogues, man, he just wears people out.

00:36:19.120 Oh, it could get annoying.

00:36:20.060 I mean, absolutely annoying.

00:36:21.160 Oh, he's relentless.

00:36:22.260 Yeah.

00:36:22.420 And we don't do that.

00:36:23.740 Actually, we use sort of elements from that method and we do what we call shared inquiry.

00:36:29.280 We're there in it with you and we're all seeking answers together.

00:36:33.820 So we try to make it more collaborative than maybe Socrates would because, and he'd just

00:36:38.700 wear you out.

00:36:39.340 In the Mino, one of his, I don't know, conversation partners says he's like a stingray, you know,

00:36:43.980 that he just like, he stung him and he's just, he's just numb after dealing with Socrates.

00:36:49.160 Yeah. 1.00

00:36:49.300 He was a pain in the ass. 1.00

00:36:50.480 You would go down to the marketplace and try to buy some figs or something. 1.00

00:36:53.240 He'd just jump on you and just berate you about what virtue was, you know, just trying

00:36:58.060 to get some food.

00:37:00.420 Gentlemen, just a quick pause and an interruption in our conversation.

00:37:03.740 By now you've probably heard of our exclusive brotherhood, the Iron Council, but I thought

00:37:08.280 I'd share with you what we are addressing as the topic of this month for December, 2018.

00:37:13.720 It is fostering emotional resiliency.

00:37:16.200 Now it seems to me, and I think you would agree that we live in a society that is becoming

00:37:20.600 increasingly fragile.

00:37:22.580 I would say overly emotional and at times unnecessarily outraged.

00:37:28.180 It's our goal inside the Iron Council this month to give you and the rest of the men, all

00:37:32.500 the tools, guidance, direction, accountability to understand your emotions.

00:37:37.540 And it's not so you can express them unnecessarily, but so you can harness them, harness your emotions

00:37:43.200 to produce a better results in your career with your wife and children and in your life

00:37:48.180 in general.

00:37:48.820 You're going to get assignments, weekly challenges, weekly conversations.

00:37:52.300 All of them, again, are designed to equip you with everything that you need to understand

00:37:55.900 and utilize your emotions for productive outcomes for you and those you have a responsibility

00:38:01.560 for.

00:38:01.940 So guys band with us band with the 450 plus men in the Iron Council this month, tap into

00:38:07.580 this month's topic, fostering emotional resiliency.

00:38:10.360 And of course, you're also going to be able to tap into our library of past topics, conversations

00:38:14.920 and guest Q and a sessions, head over to order of man.com slash iron council.

00:38:20.500 Again, that's order of man.com slash iron council.

00:38:22.940 You can learn a little bit more and you can lock in your spot.

00:38:26.540 Do that after the show until then we'll get back to and finish my conversation with Scott.

00:38:32.500 So one of the things that you had just mentioned with Socrates is he asked about language.

00:38:37.180 What is language?

00:38:37.920 And my knee jerk reaction is what does it matter?

00:38:41.420 It just is.

00:38:42.100 Now let's focus on something more significant that actually is going to help us move the

00:38:45.700 needle.

00:38:46.080 And so I've, I've had this disconnect between philosophy and application.

00:38:51.160 I don't know if you've ever experienced that or how you bridge that gap for yourself.

00:38:55.280 You know, when you're ordering coffee or something like that, you know, does it really matter?

00:38:58.900 As long as the coffee comes, you know, that you ordered comes in correctly.

00:39:02.220 Right, right.

00:39:02.980 But then you say, how did they know those thoughts that I had?

00:39:06.040 You know, how was I able to transmit, you know, these wishes in my consciousness to theirs

00:39:09.440 so that they could then prepare the coffee I wanted?

00:39:12.840 Plato addresses it kind of on that level.

00:39:15.100 And I'm no expert in this, but questions about language is where postmodernism has come from.

00:39:21.080 Some people in the kind of in the beginning half of the 20th century were reading some

00:39:25.560 books and trying to figure out what the heck they meant.

00:39:27.960 And, you know, two people can make an honest effort to get to the bottom of a message that

00:39:34.040 someone writes in a book and come up with two different answers.

00:39:36.540 So they start to say, hmm, what can we really know?

00:39:40.740 If I can print out two copies of something, two identical copies, you take one, I take one,

00:39:45.560 and then we come back together a week later and try to say in our own words what that meant.

00:39:49.900 You get two answers often.

00:39:51.680 And they say, well, you know, maybe truth is relative.

00:39:55.900 Maybe you bring who you are to the reading.

00:39:59.120 Then the interpretation that you make of that reading is colored by your socioeconomic background

00:40:04.600 and who you are and all these other things.

00:40:07.140 So a theory of language has big consequences for how you make truth claims later down the line.

00:40:14.540 It doesn't mean much to us when we're ordering dinner, like I said, at a restaurant or something.

00:40:18.380 But when you start to try to make truth claims and try to communicate with other people,

00:40:23.140 it makes a big difference.

00:40:24.060 And postmodernism comes from what I understand.

00:40:28.420 My understanding, I'm not a big scholar of postmodernists,

00:40:31.140 but from what I understand, it comes out of these peculiarities about language.

00:40:37.360 So basically what you're saying is understanding, in this case,

00:40:40.760 understanding language essentially just helps you become a better communicator.

00:40:45.100 Well, it does help you become a better communicator,

00:40:47.460 but it also has big consequences for what you see as something that is true

00:40:53.880 or not true.

00:40:55.460 And what would be the value in that?

00:40:57.700 We all know that people have different perspectives.

00:41:00.880 So what is the value in knowing that people view truth differently?

00:41:06.460 Well, that's interesting.

00:41:08.420 I mean, I think it's valuable to know that people view it differently

00:41:11.700 so that we can have some sort of compassion for them

00:41:15.100 when we're trying to make our point with them and they don't get it.

00:41:17.720 Or maybe we try to make our point and we say they don't get it.

00:41:21.780 But in truth, they got something entirely different.

00:41:23.880 Yeah, maybe we don't get it, right?

00:41:26.040 Right, right.

00:41:27.300 So that's good.

00:41:29.540 Postmodernism has taken it farther.

00:41:31.200 They've taken it to the point that they're not really sure that you can say anything that's true.

00:41:35.600 They go to the nature of truth itself.

00:41:39.440 And so for them, it goes beyond communication.

00:41:41.960 But their philosophy starts with theories about communication.

00:41:45.580 I'm probably already out of my depth on that.

00:41:47.600 But you can see that how you write things down and then how people decode those

00:41:52.520 has big consequences for what you might think is true or not.

00:41:56.040 Right.

00:41:56.200 And so what I'm saying is, again, in this context is like,

00:41:59.400 okay, so let's just, for the sake of argument,

00:42:01.680 assume that nothing anybody can say is absolute truth.

00:42:07.260 So what?

00:42:08.520 Like we kind of already know, right?

00:42:10.260 We already know that we have opinions.

00:42:11.620 We already know that people see things differently.

00:42:14.420 Like how does that philosophical debate,

00:42:17.240 whether it's with another individual or ourselves,

00:42:19.400 enhance what it is we're doing?

00:42:22.040 Well, if we're talking about things that are important,

00:42:24.000 if we're talking about the things that matter,

00:42:25.500 not just, you know, whether we say hold the mayo on the hamburger or not.

00:42:29.020 Sure, right.

00:42:29.500 If we're talking about those things that matter,

00:42:31.180 I think it's important that you know what you think the end goal is.

00:42:36.220 And for me, the end goal is actually discovering some absolute truth.

00:42:40.060 I think that we can get closer and closer and closer to the absolute truth.

00:42:44.200 Like we can approach it as an asymptote.

00:42:45.880 Because we're limited and we're humans

00:42:47.440 and we have to use language to express these things,

00:42:49.980 maybe we can never nail it right on the head.

00:42:52.020 But I think we can get closer and closer and closer to it.

00:42:54.780 But somebody else could look at the same,

00:42:58.120 all the same grammar of this subject,

00:43:00.320 like the language and the logic and how it's all organized

00:43:03.240 and come to a different conclusion and say,

00:43:05.000 well, since you can never actually nail truth,

00:43:07.600 maybe then because you can't nail it,

00:43:09.640 maybe that's a proof that there is no truth.

00:43:12.560 Because there's some other stuff we can't nail too, 1.00

00:43:14.900 and it's all made up shit, right? 1.00

00:43:17.440 Do you think that or do you think it's just something 1.00

00:43:19.420 that has yet to have been explained?

00:43:21.840 I think that it's convenient for people to say that there's no truth.

00:43:25.980 That's how I look at it.

00:43:26.860 I think when people don't understand things,

00:43:29.500 I think it's easier to say,

00:43:31.780 oh, it just must not exist.

00:43:34.020 It's like, well, hold on.

00:43:34.700 We may just not have explored it yet.

00:43:37.300 We may not understand it yet.

00:43:39.240 It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

00:43:40.800 It just means that we don't quite understand

00:43:43.360 or can't articulate what it is we're experiencing.

00:43:45.860 You and I are on the same page there.

00:43:47.700 But I can also see the argument that says,

00:43:49.300 well, since you can't quite nail it down,

00:43:51.360 and we've been trying it for millennia,

00:43:54.140 maybe it doesn't exist then.

00:43:56.260 I get that argument.

00:43:57.780 I get to that argument.

00:43:58.980 I mean, I can understand.

00:43:59.660 I think this is very applicable

00:44:01.480 when it comes to spirituality and faith.

00:44:03.760 I am spiritual.

00:44:04.780 I'm a Christian and have to exercise faith in that

00:44:07.920 because there's a lot of things about what I believe

00:44:10.180 that have yet to have been proved.

00:44:12.440 To me, I don't see that as evidence that it doesn't exist.

00:44:16.160 I just see it as something that has not been explained yet.

00:44:20.860 And maybe it will never be explained until after this life.

00:44:24.900 Here's some more Plato stuff.

00:44:26.280 He talks about the noble lie.

00:44:27.720 Is it okay to say something isn't true for an ultimate good?

00:44:32.200 So, you know, it's possible.

00:44:34.160 This may be heresy.

00:44:35.560 It's possible that maybe in certain spiritual systems,

00:44:39.180 there's no big T truth.

00:44:41.480 Meaning God?

00:44:41.960 Are you talking about God?

00:44:43.600 Whatever you want to say.

00:44:44.680 Okay.

00:44:45.560 Whatever you want to say.

00:44:46.680 Let's just, we're talking symbolically here.

00:44:48.720 Maybe there's no big T truth,

00:44:50.920 but believing those things is so helpful to people

00:44:54.600 that they are in fact true.

00:44:56.800 I can see that.

00:44:58.220 So they don't have to be proved.

00:44:59.840 If that's the case,

00:45:00.780 they don't really have to be proved.

00:45:02.240 Their utility proves them.

00:45:03.460 I mean, this is the idea we've talked about

00:45:05.040 over the past month or so within our organization here,

00:45:07.940 this code of conduct.

00:45:09.660 And whether it's true or not,

00:45:11.640 I have decided to incorporate a specific code in my conduct

00:45:15.300 because it produces favorable results.

00:45:18.540 Now favorable is subjective,

00:45:19.900 but it's my favorable results.

00:45:21.720 So therefore I am willing,

00:45:23.280 whether true or not with the capital T

00:45:25.360 to abide by this code of conduct.

00:45:27.820 And I think that you have a property right

00:45:29.760 in your business

00:45:31.300 to make it that thing,

00:45:32.940 which you want it to be.

00:45:33.700 You know,

00:45:34.080 these businesses that you and I have

00:45:35.940 and other people have are acts of creation

00:45:38.200 and there's art in them as such,

00:45:40.440 you know,

00:45:41.080 you know,

00:45:41.400 I think that you have the right

00:45:42.620 to a code of conduct

00:45:45.080 so that that thing is more,

00:45:46.680 is more like what you want it to be.

00:45:49.600 Right.

00:45:50.020 I mean,

00:45:50.220 our businesses are sort of outpourings of who we are.

00:45:53.460 Yeah.

00:45:53.900 So I think it's right to do that.

00:45:56.060 It's fascinating when you talk about with spirituality

00:45:58.200 that because it produces what we desire,

00:46:02.180 whether it's true or not is irrelevant.

00:46:03.720 That's a really interesting thought to me.

00:46:05.500 Well,

00:46:05.660 not necessarily that it's irrelevant.

00:46:06.720 It might be that the truth of the thing

00:46:08.180 lies in the fact that it,

00:46:09.400 that it's so helpful.

00:46:10.860 Hmm.

00:46:11.400 Yeah.

00:46:11.680 Not that it's an absolute truth,

00:46:13.080 but that it's helpful for you.

00:46:14.540 Right.

00:46:15.180 I mean,

00:46:15.340 we see this kind of stuff in like folklore,

00:46:17.820 you know,

00:46:18.180 people used to tell their kids,

00:46:19.440 don't go outside.

00:46:20.060 The boogeyman will get you.

00:46:21.080 Well,

00:46:21.300 there's no boogeyman.

00:46:22.080 Right.

00:46:22.520 But it kept the kids from sneaking out at night

00:46:24.720 when they were toddlers.

00:46:25.860 It reminds me of the movie,

00:46:27.000 The Village,

00:46:27.940 where they basically,

00:46:29.140 have you seen that movie?

00:46:30.240 I have not.

00:46:30.760 You might be intrigued by this

00:46:32.080 because it's along the same lines,

00:46:33.220 but they basically create a community

00:46:35.640 and they create a monster

00:46:38.200 and they teach their people,

00:46:40.780 their children about this monster

00:46:42.560 and certain symbols like the color red.

00:46:44.640 We have to avoid the color red.

00:46:46.000 That's the bad color or something.

00:46:48.220 It's certainly not true.

00:46:50.460 They've made up these lies

00:46:51.880 in order to protect the village.

00:46:54.700 It's interesting.

00:46:55.800 Maybe the truth of the thing

00:46:56.880 lies in its purpose.

00:46:58.200 The myth is true, 0.54

00:46:59.380 right?

00:47:00.120 Right.

00:47:00.520 Yeah.

00:47:01.240 Yeah.

00:47:01.500 Did George Washington

00:47:02.620 really chop down the cherry tree?

00:47:04.240 Probably not.

00:47:05.780 But it's a useful thing

00:47:06.820 for us to believe.

00:47:08.780 It's a useful thing

00:47:09.800 for us to believe

00:47:10.700 that we should tell the truth.

00:47:12.180 We should deal with the consequences

00:47:13.520 of the things we do.

00:47:15.080 So,

00:47:15.340 does it really matter

00:47:16.120 if he chopped the tree down?

00:47:17.080 I say no.

00:47:18.180 And does it actually matter

00:47:19.460 that it could be false

00:47:20.720 that he never chopped

00:47:21.620 a cherry tree down?

00:47:22.740 I say no.

00:47:23.440 Right.

00:47:23.780 Because the lesson is all the same.

00:47:25.920 Yes.

00:47:26.660 And that is the point of it.

00:47:28.240 The point is not,

00:47:29.160 did he chop down the cherry tree?

00:47:30.320 The point is

00:47:31.140 what is to be learned

00:47:32.660 from this example,

00:47:34.400 whether it's factually true or not.

00:47:37.220 Yeah.

00:47:37.260 What's the purpose

00:47:37.920 of that fable there?

00:47:38.860 And the purpose

00:47:39.300 is to get your kids

00:47:40.160 to own up

00:47:41.320 when they make a mistake.

00:47:42.440 And also,

00:47:43.200 I think his dad

00:47:44.000 in that story

00:47:44.740 was benevolent.

00:47:45.920 He didn't like

00:47:46.440 strapping to a post

00:47:47.580 and beefed,

00:47:48.460 you know?

00:47:48.700 Yeah.

00:47:49.000 He was benevolent.

00:47:49.760 And so,

00:47:50.100 you get to model

00:47:50.980 all sorts of good things

00:47:52.660 to children

00:47:53.220 when they hear that story.

00:47:54.720 Yeah.

00:47:55.300 Yeah.

00:47:55.940 I almost wonder

00:47:56.860 if we started this backwards

00:47:57.940 a little bit

00:47:58.340 or working backwards

00:47:59.580 because we're talking

00:48:00.940 about great books.

00:48:02.000 You know,

00:48:02.220 I hear the term great

00:48:03.520 and that's obviously subjective.

00:48:05.740 Great is different

00:48:06.340 to everybody else.

00:48:07.340 So,

00:48:07.760 what makes a great book

00:48:09.660 a quote-unquote

00:48:10.500 great book?

00:48:11.260 Oh, gosh.

00:48:12.640 The universality

00:48:13.760 of the issues

00:48:14.940 brought up

00:48:15.580 in those books

00:48:16.240 makes them great.

00:48:17.980 There's something

00:48:18.420 about Romeo and Juliet

00:48:19.360 that everyone

00:48:20.380 can relate to

00:48:21.480 and is important

00:48:22.440 for everyone.

00:48:23.480 The universality

00:48:24.380 of the ideas

00:48:24.900 in those books,

00:48:26.040 the endless ways

00:48:28.680 in which they can be discussed

00:48:29.740 makes them great.

00:48:31.000 And then,

00:48:31.960 they're normally

00:48:32.460 a stepping stone

00:48:33.560 in a larger school

00:48:36.180 of thought

00:48:36.740 or a family tree

00:48:38.320 of thought.

00:48:38.840 If you pick up Freud,

00:48:41.180 for example,

00:48:42.240 like you just get crazy

00:48:43.320 one day

00:48:43.800 and you pick up some Freud

00:48:44.980 for a buck

00:48:45.600 at the used bookstore

00:48:46.320 and you crack that open

00:48:47.140 and you read it

00:48:47.560 for a little bit

00:48:48.060 and he's going to say

00:48:48.880 something probably

00:48:49.660 about Nietzsche

00:48:50.340 and then you're like, 0.99

00:48:51.320 well, crap, 0.97

00:48:51.920 I can't go on 0.99

00:48:52.500 until I know

00:48:52.820 what this Nietzsche guy said

00:48:53.900 and you go find him

00:48:54.900 and then he says

00:48:55.580 something about Kant

00:48:56.440 and you go dig that up

00:48:58.480 and then he sends you

00:48:59.460 back to Spinoza

00:49:00.360 and then you go back

00:49:01.320 to Aristotle

00:49:02.020 and it all ends

00:49:03.040 back to Homer.

00:49:04.240 It's not really

00:49:05.020 that a committee 0.98

00:49:05.680 of fat guys 0.98

00:49:06.880 with vests 0.98

00:49:07.500 and cigars

00:49:08.140 in a room

00:49:08.860 came up with the list.

00:49:10.640 If you pick up

00:49:11.500 any of these books,

00:49:12.120 they refer to each other

00:49:13.140 and it's kind of

00:49:13.720 an emergent list

00:49:14.720 and the fact

00:49:15.980 that they're so discussable

00:49:17.040 and that the ideas

00:49:18.040 in them

00:49:18.560 are so universal

00:49:19.660 means that they keep

00:49:21.200 getting picked up

00:49:22.220 over and over

00:49:23.220 and over again.

00:49:24.540 People agree 0.97

00:49:25.800 95%

00:49:26.900 on what

00:49:28.380 a great book is.

00:49:29.820 For example,

00:49:30.700 I don't know

00:49:31.180 that anyone would say

00:49:32.120 that Aristotle

00:49:32.580 doesn't make the cut.

00:49:33.500 They might argue

00:49:35.360 whether Mark Twain

00:49:36.000 does or not.

00:49:36.980 I was going to ask

00:49:37.500 are there modern books

00:49:38.740 that would be

00:49:39.360 considered great books?

00:49:41.220 Yeah, there are.

00:49:42.160 There are.

00:49:43.420 The jury's still out

00:49:44.300 on a lot of stuff.

00:49:45.420 It takes a couple

00:49:46.080 hundred years

00:49:46.640 really to figure it out.

00:49:48.900 Freud's in there.

00:49:50.700 William James is in there.

00:49:51.720 This is right around

00:49:52.340 the turn of the 20th century.

00:49:54.580 Arguably,

00:49:55.120 Karl Popper

00:49:55.940 would be in there

00:49:56.620 because he kind of

00:49:57.140 moves the ball

00:49:57.940 down the field

00:49:58.600 in the development

00:49:59.360 of logic.

00:50:00.800 We had Aristotle's logic

00:50:02.420 and Euclidean geometry,

00:50:05.060 that sort of

00:50:05.920 deductive reasoning.

00:50:07.540 And then Bacon

00:50:07.980 came up with

00:50:08.580 the scientific method,

00:50:09.480 the sort of induction.

00:50:11.060 And then Popper

00:50:11.580 kind of moves the ball

00:50:12.460 down the field

00:50:13.060 a little bit

00:50:13.560 on inductive reasoning.

00:50:14.660 So he's important.

00:50:16.020 Fittgenstein's got

00:50:16.540 this stuff about language.

00:50:18.300 But it's kind of

00:50:19.140 early to say.

00:50:20.540 And if you look

00:50:22.060 at any given century,

00:50:23.760 probably only one book

00:50:24.980 that really stands out

00:50:26.420 300, 400,

00:50:27.440 600 years later.

00:50:28.360 Or, you know,

00:50:29.360 it's really hard,

00:50:30.360 you know,

00:50:31.840 to join that club,

00:50:32.940 you know?

00:50:33.220 Sure.

00:50:33.680 And as it should be.

00:50:34.800 I mean,

00:50:35.000 it should be an exclusive

00:50:36.320 club.

00:50:37.320 Here's what I think

00:50:38.040 as well is

00:50:38.700 these types of

00:50:39.980 great books

00:50:40.580 are universal

00:50:42.760 in their application

00:50:43.520 through time.

00:50:44.660 So it's not just

00:50:45.560 applicable

00:50:45.960 in one era.

00:50:48.040 It's applicable 0.94

00:50:48.640 across multiple eras.

00:50:50.640 And I think

00:50:50.960 there's some sort of,

00:50:51.800 I don't know,

00:50:52.500 we'll say

00:50:52.840 situationally great books.

00:50:55.000 Like Orwell's 1984.

00:50:57.260 I don't know

00:50:57.940 if people are going

00:50:58.440 to read that

00:50:58.880 in 300 years.

00:50:59.720 But I think

00:51:00.000 it's pretty important

00:51:00.580 for young people

00:51:01.180 to read it now.

00:51:02.420 Like I said,

00:51:03.080 I don't know

00:51:03.360 if it's going

00:51:03.600 to make the bigger cut.

00:51:05.320 But I think 1984

00:51:06.400 is important.

00:51:07.160 I think Brave New World

00:51:07.900 is important.

00:51:08.500 I think Twain's important.

00:51:09.980 There's a bunch

00:51:10.480 of stuff like that

00:51:11.380 that I think

00:51:11.740 is super important.

00:51:13.180 But, you know,

00:51:14.360 the jury is still

00:51:15.000 out on it.

00:51:15.460 We'll see.

00:51:16.340 There are all kinds

00:51:16.760 of ways to skin that cat. 0.96

00:51:18.020 Do you have a list

00:51:18.580 of books where you

00:51:19.440 recommend that people start?

00:51:21.460 You bet.

00:51:22.080 Yeah, if you go

00:51:22.500 to our website

00:51:23.400 at onlinegreatbooks.com

00:51:25.380 and click on

00:51:25.820 Join Now.

00:51:26.800 If enrollment

00:51:27.520 isn't open,

00:51:28.660 you can join

00:51:29.160 our waiting list

00:51:29.900 and we send you

00:51:30.440 a digest of our list.

00:51:31.700 We actually send you

00:51:32.140 the first two years

00:51:32.920 of the list

00:51:33.400 and then some other

00:51:34.040 cuts out of it.

00:51:35.280 So you can see

00:51:35.940 what we do.

00:51:37.140 You can also just

00:51:37.880 go to Google

00:51:38.420 and Google

00:51:39.240 Great Books

00:51:39.820 of the Western World.

00:51:40.900 Look at their list.

00:51:42.000 You can look at

00:51:42.500 St. John's College's list,

00:51:44.740 the University of Chicago's

00:51:45.600 basic program.

00:51:46.560 There are a bunch

00:51:47.080 of lists out there.

00:51:48.320 If you go through

00:51:49.020 those lists,

00:51:49.640 man, they overlap

00:51:50.540 95% probably.

00:51:52.420 Sure, of course.

00:51:52.720 a few things

00:51:53.420 that they vary on.

00:51:54.500 Well, that's what

00:51:55.060 makes it, like you said,

00:51:55.820 that's what makes

00:51:56.260 it a great book,

00:51:56.840 the universality of them.

00:51:58.240 Yeah.

00:51:58.940 And also, I think,

00:52:00.420 and I don't want

00:52:00.880 to put words in your mouth,

00:52:01.640 but I think where you

00:52:02.880 have this online course,

00:52:04.000 I think it would be

00:52:04.560 very good for people

00:52:06.020 to get that digest.

00:52:07.140 And even if they have

00:52:07.800 to wait to join

00:52:09.060 one of the courses,

00:52:10.760 they can be reading

00:52:11.420 in the meantime

00:52:12.300 and studying

00:52:12.940 and researching

00:52:13.600 and thinking about

00:52:14.680 these things

00:52:15.120 so that when

00:52:15.800 enrollment does open up,

00:52:17.740 then they have

00:52:18.700 an opportunity

00:52:19.340 to go in

00:52:19.860 prepared to this thing

00:52:21.040 as well.

00:52:21.960 When they join

00:52:22.620 that VIP waiting list,

00:52:23.460 we send them

00:52:23.900 a bunch of stuff.

00:52:25.160 They get that reading list,

00:52:26.320 they get a bunch

00:52:27.600 of other materials

00:52:28.260 that if you wanted to,

00:52:30.120 I send you enough stuff,

00:52:31.000 you could start

00:52:31.400 your own group

00:52:31.920 in your home.

00:52:32.820 In fact,

00:52:33.240 you should do that.

00:52:34.080 It's better

00:52:34.660 than doing it online.

00:52:36.320 You know,

00:52:36.520 if you can gather up

00:52:37.340 with some people

00:52:37.940 that you know

00:52:38.480 and care about

00:52:39.120 and read these things

00:52:39.920 together and eat

00:52:40.460 some good cheese

00:52:41.280 and look each other

00:52:42.100 in the eye,

00:52:42.940 you know,

00:52:43.340 once or twice a month,

00:52:44.600 it's way better

00:52:45.720 than the online thing.

00:52:47.340 But if you're in Manhattan

00:52:48.440 and don't have the room

00:52:49.040 to do it

00:52:49.540 or you don't know

00:52:50.160 eight other people

00:52:50.680 that want to do this,

00:52:51.700 you know,

00:52:52.000 come and try it with us

00:52:53.120 and we'll do our best

00:52:54.680 to make you glad

00:52:55.880 that you did.

00:52:57.180 Our job's pretty easy,

00:52:58.220 really,

00:52:58.540 because these heavy hitters

00:53:00.040 have already done

00:53:00.520 all the hard work.

00:53:02.160 I don't have to write any.

00:53:03.120 I don't have to be Cicero.

00:53:04.420 You know,

00:53:04.980 I've just got to put together

00:53:05.920 some meetings for people

00:53:06.800 and make it easy.

00:53:07.740 And there's power

00:53:08.260 in the people

00:53:09.100 who are involved as well

00:53:10.000 because it's not just you.

00:53:11.480 It's these other members

00:53:12.720 contributing

00:53:13.160 to the conversation as well.

00:53:14.720 You're not having

00:53:15.080 to shoulder all of the weight.

00:53:16.320 It's being spread out.

00:53:17.780 That's right.

00:53:18.380 There are some times

00:53:19.120 when I'll go

00:53:19.600 to one of these meetings

00:53:20.460 like in my home group

00:53:21.960 we're reading

00:53:22.380 St. Thomas Aquinas

00:53:23.340 right now

00:53:23.800 and I'm not sure

00:53:24.860 that he and I

00:53:25.460 like each other

00:53:26.180 and sometimes

00:53:28.320 I just sit there

00:53:29.180 and I'm listening.

00:53:30.680 I'm listening.

00:53:31.500 I'm not put out.

00:53:32.440 I'm not angry.

00:53:33.860 My role

00:53:34.660 in those meetings

00:53:35.460 right now

00:53:36.040 over those texts

00:53:36.960 is to sit there

00:53:37.600 and listen.

00:53:38.240 Yeah.

00:53:38.500 And that's cool

00:53:39.100 because the other guys

00:53:39.900 will do the swinging

00:53:40.520 for me.

00:53:41.440 And then there are

00:53:42.060 other times

00:53:42.420 we read something else

00:53:43.160 and I'm a little

00:53:44.220 more passionate about it,

00:53:45.140 have more insight

00:53:45.720 or maybe even less insight

00:53:46.760 and then I jump in there.

00:53:48.680 The other people

00:53:49.140 are a big, big help.

00:53:50.560 Right on.

00:53:51.160 Oh, cool.

00:53:51.840 Well, Scott,

00:53:52.280 this has been a fascinating discussion

00:53:53.680 and it's one that's different

00:53:54.840 than we've really ever had before.

00:53:56.360 So I'm really glad

00:53:57.180 that you shared some of this.

00:53:58.560 I'm going to be joining

00:53:59.260 one of the groups as well

00:54:00.980 because I see the value in this

00:54:02.440 and quite honestly,

00:54:03.240 I just haven't read

00:54:05.360 these great literary works

00:54:07.660 to the degree

00:54:08.180 that I know I probably should

00:54:10.020 and would like to.

00:54:11.300 I will ask you

00:54:12.040 a couple of questions

00:54:12.660 as we wind down.

00:54:13.580 One is philosophical in nature

00:54:16.060 and that is

00:54:16.660 what does it mean to be a man?

00:54:18.680 Oh, gosh.

00:54:19.140 It means being responsible for me.

00:54:21.900 It means I'm ultimately

00:54:22.840 responsible for myself

00:54:24.360 and not only myself

00:54:25.720 but others as well.

00:54:27.820 The people that are my clients

00:54:29.960 that don't like great books,

00:54:30.900 my family.

00:54:32.060 I'm also a barbell coach.

00:54:33.520 The people that I put at risk

00:54:35.660 to some degree

00:54:36.740 under a barbell

00:54:37.660 and it means actually

00:54:38.620 relishing that responsibility.

00:54:40.200 I think to be a man

00:54:40.860 means that you welcome

00:54:42.400 those opportunities.

00:54:43.580 If people weren't

00:54:44.360 willing to be responsible,

00:54:46.100 they wouldn't have

00:54:46.700 created spaceships

00:54:48.420 and calculus

00:54:49.540 and children.

00:54:51.640 I think that that's

00:54:52.560 where all the wonderful

00:54:53.300 creativity actually lives.

00:54:55.420 Right on.

00:54:56.120 I love it.

00:54:56.680 The end.

00:54:57.380 No, I love it.

00:54:58.120 I wasn't sure if there was more

00:54:59.120 so I didn't want to cut you off

00:55:00.160 if there was

00:55:00.640 but I do appreciate

00:55:01.460 that response

00:55:02.400 and that idea.

00:55:03.100 I certainly can agree

00:55:03.920 to that as well.

00:55:05.260 So, Scott,

00:55:05.600 how do we connect with you?

00:55:06.440 Learn more about

00:55:07.120 what you're doing

00:55:07.940 and consider joining a group

00:55:09.820 or the VIP waiting list.

00:55:11.540 Yeah, go to

00:55:11.960 onlinegreatbooks.com

00:55:13.300 and you can join

00:55:14.180 the VIP waiting list

00:55:15.060 if we're closed.

00:55:15.760 If we're not,

00:55:16.720 join up

00:55:17.260 and if you use

00:55:17.800 the coupon code order,

00:55:20.140 you'll get 25% off

00:55:21.280 your first three months there.

00:55:23.460 Something I hadn't said

00:55:24.720 and I think that you need to know

00:55:26.360 is we have created this

00:55:28.440 for busy people.

00:55:29.580 All of the reading goals

00:55:30.560 are set up around

00:55:31.580 three hours per week

00:55:33.920 of reading

00:55:34.980 for a normal person.

00:55:36.840 So, sometimes

00:55:37.420 when the reading's easy,

00:55:38.280 we read quite a lot

00:55:39.160 but sometimes

00:55:40.020 there's some Play-Doh

00:55:40.840 that's pretty tough slitting

00:55:41.920 and it might be

00:55:42.480 a 15-page week

00:55:43.640 but the idea

00:55:45.280 is that

00:55:45.940 busy people

00:55:46.780 with responsibilities

00:55:47.600 can do three hours a week.

00:55:50.140 They can do

00:55:50.540 30 minutes a day,

00:55:51.800 six days a week.

00:55:52.640 That's what we set it up on.

00:55:53.780 So, you can go to

00:55:54.220 Online Great Books there

00:55:55.180 and sign up

00:55:56.520 or join our waiting list

00:55:57.540 and go follow us on Instagram.

00:55:58.980 We've got the dankest

00:55:59.740 of all possible

00:56:00.580 great books memes.

00:56:02.100 Awesome.

00:56:02.580 On Instagram,

00:56:03.260 Online Great Books

00:56:04.000 on Instagram.

00:56:04.440 Well, good.

00:56:06.240 Well, we'll make sure

00:56:06.760 we link everything up.

00:56:07.780 I want to let you know

00:56:08.520 that I appreciate you.

00:56:09.800 I really appreciate

00:56:10.440 this conversation.

00:56:11.280 You challenged me

00:56:11.780 to think about

00:56:12.220 some things differently

00:56:12.920 as well

00:56:13.300 which is always good.

00:56:15.440 You know,

00:56:15.660 it's good to do

00:56:16.060 these podcasts

00:56:16.600 because we can have

00:56:17.580 discussions like this

00:56:18.660 and make us think

00:56:19.820 a little bit harder

00:56:20.280 and you know,

00:56:20.860 I was going to mention too

00:56:21.720 is the Socratic Method

00:56:22.620 is actually valuable

00:56:23.380 for me as a podcaster

00:56:24.760 and you as a host as well

00:56:25.980 because this is what we do.

00:56:27.760 Dive deeper

00:56:28.260 and deeper

00:56:28.800 and deeper

00:56:29.200 based on the responses

00:56:30.280 to the questions we're asking.

00:56:32.400 So, Scott,

00:56:32.740 I appreciate you.

00:56:33.360 Thanks for imparting

00:56:33.960 some of your wisdom

00:56:34.640 with us today.

00:56:35.700 Hey, thanks for having me.

00:56:36.760 So much fun.

00:56:38.860 Gentlemen,

00:56:39.260 there you go.

00:56:39.780 I hope you enjoyed

00:56:40.440 this conversation.

00:56:41.280 Like I said in the beginning,

00:56:42.280 a little bit different,

00:56:43.240 a lot different actually.

00:56:44.160 We've never had a conversation

00:56:45.160 about these great books

00:56:46.840 and this great literature

00:56:47.940 and works

00:56:48.480 of the ancient philosophers

00:56:50.220 but man,

00:56:51.120 such a valuable,

00:56:52.240 valuable discussion.

00:56:53.840 I hope that you learned

00:56:54.700 a little bit from it

00:56:55.380 and also,

00:56:56.260 I hope that you actually

00:56:56.960 go out and buy

00:56:57.560 some of these books.

00:56:58.420 I mean,

00:56:58.640 I thought for a long time

00:56:59.880 that philosophy

00:57:00.500 was just about

00:57:01.380 understanding

00:57:02.700 ideas

00:57:04.160 and thoughts

00:57:04.820 but never really

00:57:05.540 figuring out

00:57:06.200 how to actually

00:57:06.940 apply these things

00:57:07.900 and I think Scott

00:57:08.600 did a great job

00:57:09.760 in illustrating

00:57:10.440 that philosophy

00:57:11.760 is important

00:57:12.440 as much as

00:57:13.300 we are to

00:57:14.140 implement

00:57:14.620 and improve

00:57:16.100 our lives

00:57:16.680 and the lives

00:57:17.080 that we have

00:57:17.580 a responsibility for.

00:57:18.660 So,

00:57:19.180 I think that's

00:57:19.560 what we're all about here.

00:57:20.520 So,

00:57:20.700 I hope you enjoyed it guys.

00:57:21.960 I appreciate you

00:57:22.840 being on this mission.

00:57:23.640 Could not do it without you.

00:57:24.920 I didn't ask earlier

00:57:25.820 but if you would,

00:57:27.060 go leave us a rating

00:57:27.840 and review.

00:57:28.340 Take a couple of minutes,

00:57:29.220 leave a rating and review.

00:57:29.980 Go such a long way

00:57:31.180 in promoting the show

00:57:32.480 and getting the word out

00:57:33.440 and it's inspiring

00:57:35.200 when I see the podcast growing

00:57:36.640 and I get your messages

00:57:38.160 and I see the reviews

00:57:39.140 that you are enjoying the show

00:57:40.540 that it's adding

00:57:41.480 enhancing your life

00:57:42.780 as a man,

00:57:43.320 as a father,

00:57:43.900 a husband,

00:57:44.840 business owner,

00:57:45.620 community leader

00:57:46.200 and we couldn't do it without you.

00:57:47.880 So guys,

00:57:48.220 I'll let you get going

00:57:48.840 for the day.

00:57:49.660 Make sure you tune in tomorrow.

00:57:50.820 We've got our

00:57:51.100 Ask Me Anything episode

00:57:52.320 and of course Friday

00:57:53.740 for our Friday Field Notes

00:57:54.760 but until then,

00:57:55.780 go out there,

00:57:56.300 take action

00:57:56.880 and become the man

00:57:57.780 you are meant to be.

00:57:59.980 Thank you for listening

00:58:00.880 to the Order of Man podcast.

00:58:02.960 If you're ready

00:58:03.320 to take charge of your life

00:58:04.580 and be more of the man

00:58:05.720 you were meant to be,

00:58:07.000 we invite you to join the order

00:58:08.320 at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - December 04, 2018

Learning from the Great Ancients ｜ SCOTT HAMBRICK

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