Order of Man - LEE & ANDREW CHILD ｜ The Making of a Masculine Icon

00:00:00.000 You may not immediately recognize the names Lee and Andrew Child, but I bet you know the name Jack Reacher.

00:00:06.840 Lee is the creator of Jack Reacher, and Andrew is now the man who will carry on the legacy of the man who all of us, frankly, want to be like.

00:00:15.600 Today, I'm joined by the iconic and legendary duo and authors of the Jack Reacher series.

00:00:22.000 We talk about so much, including the nature of men, the power of good storytelling, whether you're a fictional author or just want to be a good dad, the quote unquote Robin Hood myth, the future of good literature in modern times, and how much individual personality goes into creating a character who will last.

00:00:43.220 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:49.400 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:53.860 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:58.920 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.

00:01:03.140 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:08.080 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. My name is Ryan Michler. I'm your host and the founder of this movement, and I want to welcome you here.

00:01:18.560 We are off to a very, very good 2025. I'm not putting that on me. I'm putting that on you.

00:01:26.320 I want to thank you for tuning in and listening and banding with us and coming to our events and joining the Iron Council and believing in not only this mission of reclaiming and restoring masculinity,

00:01:36.220 but most importantly, applying it in your life.

00:01:40.220 That is the one thing above everything else that I wanted to do when I started this movement almost 10 years ago is bridge the gap between what we know and what we as men actually do.

00:01:53.620 So when I hear about you rekindling marriages, connecting with your kids, growing businesses, starting businesses, paying off debt, getting jacked, getting lean, getting strong, getting wealthy,

00:02:06.660 I can't help but be a little bit motivated and inspired by the work that you're doing.

00:02:12.100 I've got a good podcast for you today. A couple of gentlemen that I've looked up to for a very long time, even before I know and knew exactly who they were.

00:02:21.880 These are guys who have been instrumental in shaping some of the cultural narrative and landscape around what it means to be a man.

00:02:33.560 Before I get to my introduction of Lee and Andrew Child, I just want to mention my friends over at Montana Knife Company,

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00:03:20.120 A good knife goes a long way, and I'm proud to be partnered with Montana Knife Company.

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00:03:45.680 Let me introduce you to Lee and Andrew Child.

00:03:48.780 You probably only need an introduction because you may not know the names behind the character

00:03:54.260 we've all come to know and resonate with, Mr. Jack Reacher.

00:03:59.400 Whether you've read Lee and Andrew Child's books, watched the movies featuring Tom Cruise,

00:04:05.420 or binged on the Reacher series on Amazon,

00:04:08.760 admittedly, Lee and Andrew do say that the Reacher casting is the best yet.

00:04:13.180 It's safe to say you know and want to be like their fictional character, Jack Reacher.

00:04:18.380 With Lee stepping down over the past several years and wanting the legacy of Reacher to continue,

00:04:22.620 he has turned that responsibility over to his brother, Andrew.

00:04:26.560 And I thought it fitting to have both of them on to talk about what the legacy holds,

00:04:32.500 sibling rivalry, and how the two work together to continue to expose men

00:04:36.800 to one of the most iconic fictional male characters in modern history.

00:04:46.820 Andrew, Lee, thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

00:04:49.040 I know we've been trying to make this work, and I think, Lee, you may have been sitting

00:04:53.640 around for a while waiting for me, and I am deeply sorry about that.

00:04:58.860 Do not worry.

00:04:59.920 No problem at all.

00:05:02.500 Well, I'm very excited to have this conversation.

00:05:04.860 You know, obviously, well, maybe not obviously, but I think anybody who

00:05:08.940 is in the space of manliness and masculinity probably needs to know a little bit about Jack Reacher,

00:05:15.600 and I've been a big fan for a long time, but I have a question that I've been wanting to ask

00:05:21.240 for a very long time, and I'm very curious what it is about the names for protagonists

00:05:27.900 that start with the letter J.

00:05:30.200 You've got Jack Reacher, you've got James Bond, James Reese, Jason Bourne, John Wick, Jack Ryan.

00:05:37.540 What's going on with the letter J?

00:05:39.340 I have made the same observation, absolutely.

00:05:44.520 You know, John, Jack, and also what is really, really interesting to me is that women authors

00:05:52.300 who feel the need to somehow disguise their gender for the market often use J as a middle initial.

00:06:00.700 There is something, I don't know, the consonant sound, it's a sort of semi-hard, semi-soft,

00:06:07.920 quite mellifluous sound that they seem to want.

00:06:12.040 But yeah, Jack, John, James Bond, obviously John Rambo, it is all the great thrill heroes

00:06:22.280 start with J.

00:06:23.380 I do not know why.

00:06:25.760 Andrew, any thoughts on that?

00:06:27.240 Well, you know, that's a great observation.

00:06:28.660 I hadn't thought about it much, but I think that it comes down to those, they're not only

00:06:34.940 names that start with J, they're kind of short, snappy names, and I think it lends a sense

00:06:40.800 of directness, straight to the point, not messing about, not being over fancy, you know, somebody

00:06:48.480 that you feel like isn't hiding anything, isn't concealing anything.

00:06:53.600 So I think there's a kind of down-to-earth aspect to that as well.

00:06:56.860 It is interesting as we talk about this, because I think to the layman like myself, there's

00:07:02.460 so much more that goes into creating a compelling character that we're not, we as consumers of

00:07:08.600 that information are just not aware of.

00:07:11.540 You know, I think about, as you were saying that, with the sophistication of names, somebody

00:07:15.300 that comes to mind is Sherlock Holmes.

00:07:17.020 But that's not a, that's a more sophisticated name than Jack Reacher, but also that's a more

00:07:24.660 sophisticated character.

00:07:26.240 So it's interesting to start making these kind of connections and see what really goes

00:07:30.820 on in creating somebody that people resonate with.

00:07:34.420 Yeah, I mean, Sherlock Holmes is a really interesting example, because there are really two Sherlock

00:07:40.740 Holmes.

00:07:41.360 One is the, we've had literally hundreds of movies, we've had dozens of TV series about

00:07:48.300 Sherlock Holmes, and that visualized character has diverged from the book character.

00:07:55.600 You go back to what Conan Doyle actually wrote, Sherlock Holmes was certainly a very brainy guy,

00:08:02.500 absolutely, very smart, the intelligence was to the forefront, but he was also a brutal

00:08:07.940 fighter.

00:08:09.060 If you actually read the Sherlock Holmes texts, he is a pretty fearsome physical person as

00:08:14.880 well, and that seems to have been downplayed in the popular legend in favor of his intellect,

00:08:21.540 which is interesting in itself.

00:08:24.700 I think the biggest compliment for Reacher that I ever had was to be compared, for him to

00:08:30.500 be compared with Sherlock Holmes, and it was actually by a Spanish journalist who was making

00:08:34.760 a pun in a foreign language, which I thought was super impressive.

00:08:39.120 Reacher being a wanderer, legendarily homeless, and has no possessions, this Spanish journalist

00:08:46.260 called him Sherlock Homeless, which I thought was a really great, he nails it in a lot of

00:08:52.840 ways, because Reacher is famous for being extremely physical, but he's also very smart.

00:08:56.920 And you write about the sort of creep from the original character to the popular conception,

00:09:03.680 because you have exactly the same thing with James Bond, don't you?

00:09:07.120 If you go back and read the books, Fleming's version was really worlds away from what you

00:09:14.200 see on the screen, really, of any of the different actors' interpretations.

00:09:19.180 So it is interesting what winds up in the public consciousness and where that came from.

00:09:24.820 But the name thing, I mean, if you stick with Sherlock Holmes, that works great, doesn't

00:09:30.020 it?

00:09:30.180 Because not only have you got Sherlock versus Jack, you've then got Mycroft as opposed

00:09:35.100 to Joe.

00:09:36.120 So, you know, it doesn't stop at one level, does it?

00:09:39.780 Yeah, it's interesting.

00:09:41.580 And you talk about that creep a little bit, and admittedly, you are both more well-versed

00:09:46.500 than I am in this, but I wonder how that's changed for you when you began, Lee, writing

00:09:53.440 these novels in the 90s.

00:09:56.140 And now, all of a sudden, we've got, you know, the silver screen, and we've got Tom Cruise

00:10:02.020 playing Jack Reacher, and we've got the Reacher series that is coming out here in the next couple

00:10:07.480 of days, how, what is that like for you both as authors of this character and the image

00:10:14.920 that you think of in your mind relative to the way that it has to be, for lack of a better

00:10:20.040 term, or maybe a misunderstanding, marketed to a different audience?

00:10:23.940 I think the only way I can really answer that is to say that years ago, before there were

00:10:32.300 any movies, before there was a screen adaptation, everybody was speculating about who should

00:10:39.180 play Reacher, were there to be a screen adaptation.

00:10:43.860 And I even was once eating in a restaurant, and completely unbeknownst to them, the next

00:10:49.740 table were obviously Reacher readers, and they were having a conversation about who should

00:10:53.920 play Jack Reacher on the screen, and the general feedback I was getting in the mail, and online

00:11:04.080 forums, and so on, was all over the place.

00:11:06.740 There was absolutely no consensus whatsoever as to what he actually looks like.

00:11:12.180 Is he dark-haired?

00:11:12.980 Is he fair-haired?

00:11:16.000 Nobody really had a, well, that's wrong.

00:11:19.740 Everybody had their own specific personal view of what he looked like.

00:11:23.360 And it was wildly divergent.

00:11:26.080 And so, there was pretty much unanimity that Tom Cruise was not it.

00:11:33.040 He, for the book readers, he was really unpopular.

00:11:38.220 For people that had not read the books, who were coming to the movies just fresh, you know,

00:11:43.480 just wanted a movie to watch, they were perfectly happy with it.

00:11:46.360 But the people that knew the books didn't like Tom, because a huge part of Reacher is his physical

00:11:52.600 size, and the physical impression that he makes.

00:11:56.640 And the new guy, Alan Richardson, on the Amazon Prime series is way, way, way closer.

00:12:02.740 And there is a general feeling, I mean, the most common thing I ever hear about that is,

00:12:08.680 yeah, you got the right guy this time.

00:12:10.560 Richardson nails it perfectly.

00:12:13.100 And so, yeah, we're at a place where the brain is still working, but the body is now what it should be.

00:12:22.340 Yeah, I mean, Alan, Alan Richardson is a specimen of a human being.

00:12:26.720 I mean, I think he's 6'3", 6'4", I don't know, I don't know what he weighs.

00:12:30.960 But, you know, he's, he's been on the cover of Men's Fitness, I'm sure, and Men's Magazine,

00:12:36.620 and all these other things as a specimen of a human being.

00:12:39.740 And I think that's more closely aligned with your version of Reacher, would you agree?

00:12:44.940 Yeah, I mean, my version of Reacher was a physically intimidating, dominating, implacable guy,

00:12:50.060 such that if he walks into the room, the temperature drops just a couple of degrees

00:12:54.740 because everybody is kind of wary, maybe a little scared.

00:12:59.000 And the immediate impression is, I would love this guy for a friend,

00:13:03.320 I would hate this guy for an enemy, and it's his choice.

00:13:07.040 There's nothing you can do to influence it.

00:13:09.260 He's going to make up his own mind.

00:13:10.940 And so, yeah, the physical thing is definitely huge.

00:13:15.400 And Alan, you know, he bulks up for Reacher, literally at the start,

00:13:20.320 before the, each new season starts shooting, he works out and puts on 20 or 30 pounds

00:13:26.600 because he wants to be that absolutely implacable opponent for anybody who deserves it.

00:13:33.340 Andrew, what about you, where, you know, this is not your character.

00:13:37.360 I hope I'm saying that respectfully.

00:13:40.140 It is now because you've taken over the series.

00:13:42.500 This is not your brainchild.

00:13:43.900 I'll say it that way.

00:13:45.360 Do you see it differently?

00:13:46.960 Is there a different version or direction that you have?

00:13:49.700 Or is it a continuation of what always has been?

00:13:52.960 I mean, I feel from my point of view, and, you know, Lee can say if he thinks I'm kidding myself,

00:13:58.840 but I feel like it's just an absolutely natural continuation because, you know, sure enough, Lee originated the character.

00:14:07.700 He dreamt him up.

00:14:08.700 He first put him down on paper.

00:14:10.440 But all of those years ago, you know, at that particular time, the boot was on the other foot because I had a pretty decent job and Lee was out of work.

00:14:20.920 And so when he sent me the manuscripts of the first book, because it was finished, he was needing to sell it in order to put food on the table and keep a roof over his head.

00:14:30.440 You know, he sent me this manuscript and the first book, Killing Floor, you know, it's written first person.

00:14:39.060 So you see everything through the character's eyes.

00:14:42.000 And the way the story unfolds is that you don't learn the character's name for quite a long time.

00:14:47.180 He has to be arrested.

00:14:48.320 He has to be taken to the police station.

00:14:50.080 He has to be awkward with the investigator.

00:14:52.400 You know, it's ages till he says his name.

00:14:53.880 And I remember this really intense feeling of, I don't know the character's name, but I know this character.

00:15:01.420 You know, he was, because Lee and I are so similar in all of the things that drive you in life.

00:15:06.120 What makes you happy?

00:15:07.100 What makes you sad?

00:15:08.040 What makes you angry?

00:15:09.060 What makes you, you know, everything that we respond to, we respond in the same way.

00:15:14.960 And so from that point onwards, you know, for 25 years, we would talk about Reacher as if he was there in the room with us.

00:15:22.940 You know, we were always glad that there weren't any psychiatrists nearby because we were there talking about an invisible person like he was an imaginary brother in the room with us.

00:15:32.220 And so it was really a question of moving from something that we did for fun, just talking about Reacher and what he would do and how we would react.

00:15:43.460 And that was a sort of, you know, a stand-in for our own responses to things, what made us annoyed, what made us happy.

00:15:50.780 And so all we did really was move from there to me having to put it down on paper rather than Lee doing it.

00:15:57.340 So I feel it's a completely natural, completely organic transformation, transfer.

00:16:03.340 And it's a funny thing looking at it in relation to the screen version because whenever I've been asked, even about my other books, who would you like to play them on TV or who would you like to play them in the movies, I always try to think about it.

00:16:20.600 And I always come up completely blank because, you know, when you're, for me, when you're looking at a character in a book, it's really about all the internal sides.

00:16:29.720 It's how do they think?

00:16:30.820 What do they feel?

00:16:32.020 It's not about necessarily how they look.

00:16:34.360 And so I always struggle with, well, who would portray this person physically?

00:16:38.800 I don't really know.

00:16:39.820 And I think that, you know, it's great that they managed to find Alan so that, you know, they have somebody that everybody agrees upon does inhabit that character in a really convincing physical way.

00:16:51.960 And, you know, when you're creating a character, what goes into that?

00:16:56.920 I think inevitably a large part of the author goes into it subliminally, subconsciously.

00:17:03.060 You can't help it.

00:17:03.920 All fiction is to some extent autobiographical.

00:17:07.220 And some of it is based on who have you seen?

00:17:10.500 Who do you know?

00:17:11.360 Who do you hang out with?

00:17:13.240 You take influences from loads of people.

00:17:16.720 And so part of Reacher is me.

00:17:18.760 Part of Reacher is what I would like to be.

00:17:20.960 But also part of Reacher is Andrew, because at the time I started writing Reacher, Andrew was late 20s, heading for 30, absolutely in his prime, you know, peak.

00:17:35.560 And we are similar people, so that what I put in is likely to be very similar to what he puts in.

00:17:41.960 And also I kind of used a little bit of Andrew with Reacher because one of the things that Andrew does that I just love, anything that crops up in life that is annoying, he handles it in a way that is deadly.

00:17:59.720 I mean, he doesn't necessarily kill the guy, but he verbally, mentally kills the guy.

00:18:05.040 And one of the things I love most of all, if I'm hanging out with Andrew and he gets a phone call with some kind of spurious complaint or problem or something like that, I just sit back, I metaphorically open the popcorn and enjoy what I'm going to hear from the response.

00:18:23.340 So this is two very similar people, and Reacher's already a little bit based on him.

00:18:28.660 So the transition was, I thought, seamless.

00:18:33.140 You know, there was no kind of sitting down and explaining Reacher to Andrew.

00:18:38.340 It wasn't like, OK, this is who Reacher is.

00:18:40.400 He knew, you know, he was Reacher to a certain extent.

00:18:43.160 And so, yeah, I think that that has enabled the transition in a way that would not have been possible just with some other random author.

00:18:51.640 You know, what normally happens in the book world is a popular series author dies, and then there's a scramble to find somebody to continue the series.

00:19:02.740 And we dodged that bullet, you know.

00:19:04.920 It didn't die.

00:19:06.280 We were able to collaborate.

00:19:07.900 I was collaborating with a guy that has already known Reacher for 25 years, and Reacher was partly based on him.

00:19:14.880 So that, yeah, I was not surprised how well it worked.

00:19:19.060 It was exactly what I expected.

00:19:20.680 You know, I don't have a brother, but as a brother, I thought that you were going to go a different direction, not talk about all the redeeming qualities of Andrew in Reacher.

00:19:31.420 I thought you were going to go a different direction with that, but I can appreciate where you're coming from.

00:19:34.720 Yeah, and we, you know, we grew up many, many years apart, which I think is significant in certain ways, that he can deal with stuff that I can't deal with, and I'm experiencing stuff that he missed, you know, simply because of chronology.

00:19:50.400 But, yeah, we're very similar.

00:19:52.100 We have a similar reaction.

00:19:53.240 And if I invent a situation that Reacher is in, I know what he's going to do next, and it's pretty much 90% what Andrew would pick anyway.

00:20:03.900 So the learning curve was not there, you know.

00:20:07.940 The learning curve was organic over the past quarter century.

00:20:10.400 I think it's interesting when you move from a book format to the silver screen or the TV screen, and you alluded to this earlier, as a reader, we can interpret what that individual should look like to us.

00:20:24.380 Not to you, but to me.

00:20:25.760 I can interpret that and say, oh, this guy looks this way because that's the way I want him to look.

00:20:29.960 But then you put it up on screen, and all of a sudden, that imaginative process is taken out of it.

00:20:36.540 What was that transition like for you guys?

00:20:38.360 It's a – yeah, it's exactly right.

00:20:41.540 I mean, the fundamental thing about a book is that the reader is doing the work.

00:20:49.060 The reader is creating everything.

00:20:51.540 We've all read books, for instance, that were written 50 years ago maybe where the author is dead, you know, like James Bond.

00:20:58.820 And so we are sitting there, and we interrogate the text, and all the mental energy is happening in the reader's brain.

00:21:08.160 The reader is reconstructing that story.

00:21:11.140 The reader's own mind is creating the characters and the scenarios.

00:21:17.040 And that is fundamentally different from film and TV, where you sit there passively, and it comes at you.

00:21:23.680 It is provided to you, essentially spoon-fed.

00:21:27.020 So the mechanisms are totally different.

00:21:29.620 And it does come down to a fundamental yes or no.

00:21:33.100 Does this guy match what you thought it – what your mental image was?

00:21:39.740 And for a lot of people, it doesn't.

00:21:45.080 You know, I've got lots of friends who write books and have TV adaptations, and I watch them.

00:21:50.400 And I think, well, that's not what he looks like.

00:21:53.820 But the skill of the actor is that after five minutes or an episode, you buy it.

00:22:00.480 You think, okay, yeah, and your old image fades away, and the new image replaces it.

00:22:05.320 I think we're lucky with Richland in that it's not much of a leap.

00:22:09.920 You know, that's pretty much – he's too handsome.

00:22:12.340 I mean, all actors are handsome.

00:22:13.820 That's the problem.

00:22:14.940 You can't find –

00:22:15.620 We don't want to look at ugly people.

00:22:17.420 Otherwise, all of us would be more on TV than these guys.

00:22:21.400 There are no really ugly or plain actors, and certainly not in starring roles.

00:22:27.600 And so I see – personally, I see Richer like Alan Richland, but just sort of misshapen a little bit.

00:22:35.460 You know, a bit cruder features in face and so on.

00:22:39.780 But, yes, it's pretty close for me, and I think it is – from what I'm hearing, it's pretty close for everybody.

00:22:46.440 And part of the skill of describing a character in a book is knowing almost instinctively how much description to put in because you need enough to give the reader a good idea of who this character is and what they do and how they behave and what's important to them and what their values are.

00:23:03.580 But if you go too far, then the reader kind of loses the engagement because it's all given to them.

00:23:10.520 You have to have just the right amount so that the reader is – you need the dots, and you need the reader to fill in everything in between.

00:23:17.000 And that's part of the joy of a book.

00:23:20.380 You know, you might suggest that a character is attractive, or you might suggest that they're not attractive.

00:23:26.440 Well, everybody's got a different idea of what attractive or unattractive is.

00:23:30.700 So, you know, you talk about an attractive kind of character, and one person thinks, oh, well, then they've got blonde hair.

00:23:36.660 Somebody else thinks they must have black hair.

00:23:38.640 You know, that you leave plenty of room for the reader to fill in and actually have that own personalized version of the character that you're describing.

00:23:48.020 And so, you know, you gain plenty of things with a screen adaptation, but you also lose some.

00:23:54.400 And I think that that personal element where the reader is completing the picture of the character that you sketch out is one of the things that's more satisfying in a book.

00:24:05.480 Well, you know, the reason I was – part of the reason I was excited about having this conversation is because I'm fascinated with storytelling.

00:24:12.660 And I think the majority of the individuals that listen to this podcast, if they were to read a book, it would probably land more in the self-help, self-development space, nonfiction space.

00:24:26.080 And only relatively recently have I got into more fictional work, but I see it as the power of telling a story because although the character may be fictional, the stories and the lessons are the things that we're supposed to share.

00:24:40.880 You know, I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine who I trained with every morning, and he threw up the other morning.

00:24:51.520 And I told my son that, and then he caught wind of that through a friend, and he said to me this morning, he said, you know, I'm sure you embellished that story.

00:24:58.920 You made it sound way worse than it actually was.

00:25:01.480 And I said, of course I embellished it.

00:25:03.160 It would not have been as compelling if it was the reality, which is that you just threw up some water you drank two minutes earlier because you were going hard.

00:25:10.880 It's trying to find, I think, the balance between embellishment and believability.

00:25:15.960 Yeah, absolutely.

00:25:16.800 And first let me say that it's guys who trend toward nonfiction drive me crazy.

00:25:25.040 You can learn much more from fiction than nonfiction because legendarily somebody said the difference between nonfiction and fiction is that fiction has to make sense.

00:25:36.140 And it has to be a linear story with a meaning that delivers you somewhere.

00:25:42.440 And I'm really fascinated with human origins.

00:25:47.680 We've been evolving for 7 million years, and we've been telling stories for hundreds of thousands of years recently.

00:25:57.540 Why?

00:25:59.220 Why?

00:25:59.800 What is it about story that made it essential?

00:26:02.840 Because if you go back a few hundred thousand years, it's not that we were sitting around with leisure time to use.

00:26:13.420 You know, we weren't sort of bored in the evening and looking for something to do.

00:26:17.280 We were prehistoric, primitive people, and every single minute of every day was a battle for survival.

00:26:24.820 There was no leisure time.

00:26:26.200 There was no reason to have fiction other than it must have helped us in some way.

00:26:33.680 Every single thing we did back then was designed to make us more likely to still be alive the next morning.

00:26:42.460 Every single thing, it had an evolutionary purpose about survival.

00:26:46.280 So what is it about story that makes us more likely to survive?

00:26:50.880 And it is.

00:26:51.880 It's education.

00:26:53.240 It's parable.

00:26:54.200 It's example.

00:26:55.420 It's empowerment.

00:26:58.140 Encouragement.

00:26:59.000 All of that stuff is built into stories.

00:27:01.920 And guys that want self-help and wellness and all of that should read fiction.

00:27:06.260 You get far more insight to the world from story than you do from reality.

00:27:12.020 Well, one thing I've thought about that is, you know, when it comes to the self-development space, I think it's easy to say in a self-help book, which I have written, that you should be virtuous, right?

00:27:24.580 You should be this way.

00:27:25.920 You should be virtuous.

00:27:27.700 Versus I think what you both do is let me show you what virtuous looks like.

00:27:33.120 And I think that is a more compelling arc than be this way.

00:27:39.480 Let me show you what it actually looks like.

00:27:41.260 And I think one of the appeals with Reacher is that he is virtuous.

00:27:44.140 There's no doubt about it.

00:27:45.460 But he's also pretty rough the way that I think us as human beings are.

00:27:49.920 Yeah, I mean, Reacher spans the entire spectrum.

00:27:53.280 You know, on the one hand, cerebrally, he is extremely smart.

00:27:57.380 You know, a big part of the books and the show is Reacher being confronted with a problem and figuring it out.

00:28:03.600 And certainly from the readers, we hear a lot that people's favorite thing is that they like to think along with Reacher.

00:28:09.960 You know, here's a puzzle.

00:28:11.480 How can you possibly figure it out?

00:28:13.260 Or Reacher takes it, you know, like peeling an onion a layer at a time until finally step by step he gets to the solution.

00:28:20.580 And people love that.

00:28:21.660 But at the same time, the opposite end of the scale, once he's solved the problem and he's figured out who the bad guy is and who, you know, who's generally some pretty unpleasant bully and obnoxious person picking on people, then it's time in the, you know, good old fashioned way for Reacher to take care of that guy.

00:28:39.320 And people love to see that too.

00:28:41.060 So both, you know, both ends of the extreme are covered, you know, Reacher's story.

00:28:46.140 I think it's a little bit like a, like a comedian.

00:28:49.460 We give, we give some leniency and grace to comedians to talk about things that are quote unquote off limits or politically incorrect because they're filtering it through their, their sketch or their skit.

00:29:01.340 And I think it's the same thing with fictional work.

00:29:05.420 We'll give a little bit, if anybody did that in reality, there'd be a big problem.

00:29:11.600 Well, I think that's the reason why people like it so much because a lot of the stuff Reacher does, if you did it in real life, it would, your life would be destroyed.

00:29:20.740 You'd wind up being divorced.

00:29:22.160 You'd wind up in jail.

00:29:23.340 You'd wind up somebody shooting you or running you over with their car.

00:29:26.660 You know, there's so much that Reacher does that you can't do.

00:29:30.220 You probably desperately want to do, but you just can't because living in a civilized society prevents it.

00:29:37.120 You know, you see all of the parts that you recognize, the frustrations, you know, being upset with your boss, coming across somebody who's behaving badly on a train or a bus or something like that, wanting to do the right thing.

00:29:50.160 Which I think is really encouraging, actually.

00:29:52.080 The fact that it shows that so many readers, so many people in the real world, despite the things that seem to be going wrong at the moment, so many people still want to do the right thing.

00:30:03.640 They can't in the real world, so they look to somebody like Reacher as a sort of proxy to do the right thing for them.

00:30:11.680 So, yeah, doing the right thing is absolutely critical.

00:30:15.660 And, you know, they say that in storytelling, there's two ways you can do it.

00:30:19.820 You can show or you can tell.

00:30:21.900 And the thing with fiction, you know, what we try to do with Reacher is we show Reacher doing the right thing.

00:30:28.100 It shows what a righteous, rightful person looks like, how they behave.

00:30:33.640 You know, Reacher will always do the right thing.

00:30:36.440 It doesn't matter if it costs him personally.

00:30:38.580 He's never looking for a reward.

00:30:40.560 He does the right thing because it's the right thing to do.

00:30:43.880 So, I think all of that ties together.

00:30:45.920 And I think your point about comedy is a good one.

00:30:48.960 It's a kind of, almost, it's a related structure to fiction in that comedy, I think deep down, subconsciously in the audience's mind,

00:31:01.300 they understand that that is a permission structure for things to be said or thought that should not happen in real life.

00:31:11.220 You know, the comic who is totally politically incorrect, it is a safety valve.

00:31:18.040 It is a release of frustration in the audience.

00:31:22.240 But they don't think that's how life ought to be.

00:31:25.340 Same thing with the Reacher books.

00:31:27.480 It's a huge consolation for the reader that what they deep down want to do, because there are disgusting people in this world,

00:31:36.540 and you can meet them face to face, and what you want to do is punch them in the throat.

00:31:42.540 That's what you want to do.

00:31:43.780 And there is nothing wrong with that.

00:31:46.820 But you know that in the civilized world, you can't do that.

00:31:51.060 You shouldn't do that.

00:31:52.360 You understand at some level this is not a textbook on how you should live.

00:31:56.980 It is much more of a fantasy release because of the frustrations that we get with the way that we have to live.

00:32:04.780 But nobody is going to read a Reacher book and then go out and do a copycat type of thing.

00:32:11.540 They read the Reacher book, and they're less likely to go out and do the copycat thing

00:32:17.320 because they've had that vicarious enjoyment during their reading.

00:32:22.280 The steam is blown off.

00:32:24.680 They're more relaxed.

00:32:25.700 They're calmer.

00:32:27.500 So it is a permission structure where they completely understand this is not how you should behave,

00:32:32.760 but damn, is it fun.

00:32:34.080 You know, they just love it in the instant.

00:32:39.540 Men, let me just step away from the conversation very quickly.

00:32:43.000 There isn't a day that goes by where I don't hear from men about wanting to connect with other men

00:32:48.280 to be accountable to and band with when I give them suggestions about how to connect with other men.

00:32:54.720 Unfortunately, I met with a myriad of excuses as to why that won't work for them.

00:33:02.360 Don't be like those guys.

00:33:04.940 It's easy to make excuses.

00:33:06.500 And I know you're busy and strapped for financial resources.

00:33:09.540 We all are.

00:33:10.520 But what if I told you we were hosting an event that is not only inexpensive,

00:33:17.680 but has the power to transform your life?

00:33:19.800 I'm talking about the event, the men's forge on May 1st through the 4th.

00:33:24.780 We're all descending on a bison camp just outside of St. Louis to band and work together

00:33:31.300 and forge some of the deepest bonds a man could have.

00:33:34.260 And I want you there.

00:33:35.500 All the food, all the lodging, all the activities, all the speakers, everything is completely covered.

00:33:43.820 All you have to do is get there and tickets are selling fast.

00:33:47.640 So if you want to join us and you want to band with us, you want to connect with us,

00:33:51.220 you want to learn from other men, you want to grow together,

00:33:53.440 then join us at themensforge.com.

00:33:57.840 That's themensforge.com.

00:33:59.680 Again, tickets are selling fast.

00:34:02.040 We only have 200 total spots available, and I want you to be one of those men.

00:34:07.080 I partnered with some other men, and I've talked about that on previous podcasts,

00:34:10.200 and I'll address that on another.

00:34:11.640 But for now, we need to have you there.

00:34:14.160 It's themensforge.com, May 1st through the 4th, 2025.

00:34:18.460 I hope to see you there.

00:34:20.300 For now, let's get back to it with my conversation with Lee and Andrew Child.

00:34:25.980 It's interesting, Lee, that you were saying that

00:34:27.820 because I'm taking notes as I'm talking with you guys,

00:34:30.320 and I wrote here, the term I wrote is release valve.

00:34:34.320 That's, you know, if you've got, if you're doing, you know,

00:34:38.860 canning vegetables or whatever, you put it in a steam cooker,

00:34:44.260 but it has to have a release valve.

00:34:45.820 Otherwise, it's a bomb.

00:34:49.060 But I was very curious as to whether or not people,

00:34:53.360 I think much more pronounced would be something like video games,

00:34:55.840 where people use the way that Reacher or these other protagonists

00:35:01.020 approach their lives as permission slips to do the same.

00:35:04.520 And notably, you know, I know the recording of this,

00:35:07.160 the release of this podcast is a little bit differently,

00:35:09.320 different, but notably, we have this individual,

00:35:13.140 Luigi, I can't remember his last name right offhand,

00:35:15.380 who took it upon himself to essentially execute

00:35:20.300 an innocent civilian who he believed was unjustly living his life.

00:35:29.620 And we can talk about whether or not that's fair or not,

00:35:32.440 but that's kind of the narrative that we hear now.

00:35:35.940 What do you guys think about something like that?

00:35:38.460 Well, that's the kind of,

00:35:39.560 you can throw back a thousand years

00:35:41.300 to the origin of the Robin Hood myth.

00:35:44.840 I mean, the guy is a kind of Robin Hood figure to a lot of people.

00:35:51.680 And it surprised me, actually,

00:35:53.860 how readily a lot of people have approved of it.

00:35:59.120 You know, I've read the coverage,

00:36:01.040 but even more than that, if you read the comments,

00:36:03.720 you know, most newspaper websites have comment facilities.

00:36:07.980 And if you read that, even in super civilized newspapers,

00:36:11.420 like the New York Times or whatever,

00:36:14.240 there is a fundamental sympathy for that guy.

00:36:17.380 He's done the right thing, they think,

00:36:19.780 in a Robin Hood sort of a way,

00:36:21.660 as if the healthcare boss is the sheriff of Nottingham

00:36:24.760 and Robin Hood is taking them down.

00:36:29.200 And it is a thousand-year-old myth.

00:36:31.460 And you have to ask yourself, why?

00:36:33.120 Why do myths stick around for a thousand years or more?

00:36:36.740 They stick around because we want them.

00:36:39.240 We believe in them.

00:36:40.300 If there is a grotesquely unfair situation,

00:36:44.140 and it has to be said,

00:36:45.700 corporate healthcare in the U.S. is grotesquely unfair.

00:36:49.820 And it is underhanded.

00:36:51.860 And we know from documentary evidence

00:36:54.680 that it's completely routine.

00:36:57.420 Whatever you've got, if you break your leg tomorrow,

00:37:00.720 your health insurer is going to say,

00:37:02.540 denied, and then you apply again,

00:37:05.720 they're going to say, deny it.

00:37:07.260 And they have a corporate policy to deny it four times,

00:37:10.640 five times, or whatever, before they pay up.

00:37:13.720 And so it is absolutely possible to think

00:37:16.880 that is totally wrong, that is reprehensible.

00:37:19.740 And so the guy that attacks that system

00:37:22.100 looks good in comparison.

00:37:25.340 Yeah, I mean, I think I agree with that entire commentary.

00:37:28.520 I mean, I'm literally staring down the barrel

00:37:30.260 of tens of thousands of dollars of medical expenses

00:37:32.660 that I believe should have been covered.

00:37:34.920 And also, we're not going to take that into our own hands.

00:37:38.200 There's ways to solve those problems

00:37:39.660 and address those issues other than vigilantism.

00:37:43.200 Absolutely, there is, of course.

00:37:44.800 And that hives back to what I was saying before.

00:37:46.920 These are not textbooks on how to live.

00:37:48.740 And there's no doubt this guy stepped out of the mainstream.

00:37:51.660 But the emotion that drove him

00:37:53.740 is an emotion that we all feel.

00:37:55.560 And sure, you know, you'll go to court or you'll appeal

00:37:59.920 or you'll get a lawyer or something like that.

00:38:02.340 But that is incredibly tedious.

00:38:03.960 And it takes years and years.

00:38:06.140 And it's frustrating and annoying and boring.

00:38:09.380 And so you need that relief valve of imagining in your head,

00:38:13.820 you know what, I'd really like to go

00:38:15.920 and break that guy's leg.

00:38:17.400 I'd like to go and shoot that guy in the head.

00:38:19.560 And you don't do it, but you want to do it.

00:38:22.580 And so if somebody does take that extreme step,

00:38:25.960 you've got 50% of your mind is sympathetic to it.

00:38:30.060 And it sort of relates to a lot of really good books,

00:38:34.020 a lot of good thrillers.

00:38:35.320 They're not black and white.

00:38:36.860 You know, there's always a gray area.

00:38:38.520 You know, if somebody's done something,

00:38:40.980 if it's the old, you know, that old cliche,

00:38:43.820 somebody's caught robbing a bank

00:38:45.720 and they're asked, well, why did you rob the bank?

00:38:47.720 And they say, because that's where the money is.

00:38:49.940 You know, that's not interesting.

00:38:51.500 If there's something where you're combining elements of right and wrong,

00:38:56.660 or maybe in this situation, two wrongs,

00:38:59.100 because clearly you can't defend someone

00:39:01.000 who goes out and murders another individual.

00:39:02.900 That's obviously completely wrong.

00:39:04.640 But you can, as Lee says,

00:39:06.480 you can understand the emotion that drives it.

00:39:09.960 You know, you can say, if you're talking about,

00:39:12.480 and I'm saying if you're talking about an individual

00:39:14.740 who's perhaps extremely wealthy,

00:39:17.240 and you've got hundreds of thousands of American families

00:39:20.560 going bankrupt every year at the other end of that system,

00:39:24.120 you can understand the frustration.

00:39:27.360 Well, I think there's nuance.

00:39:28.960 And that's why these conversations are so important,

00:39:31.280 because if I just put it on a Twitter post

00:39:34.580 of why I would rationalize murdering innocent people,

00:39:39.100 or why I think, you know,

00:39:41.500 this person deserves whatever, you know,

00:39:43.660 whatever side of the aisle,

00:39:44.680 like there's no nuance in that.

00:39:46.620 But I also do like,

00:39:48.420 one thing I appreciate about what you guys do

00:39:50.360 is that there's a level of humanity to it.

00:39:56.300 Jack Reacher to me is a much more compelling character

00:39:59.140 than Captain America or Superman.

00:40:02.380 Like there's no virtue in those,

00:40:05.700 specifically Superman, because he's perfect.

00:40:08.800 So there's no virtue in that

00:40:10.080 because there's nothing for him to overcome,

00:40:11.780 except for maybe kryptonite, you know?

00:40:13.320 But somebody like Jack Reacher,

00:40:15.260 or if we're looking at like from a comic book perspective,

00:40:18.100 somebody like Batman, he's a flawed human being.

00:40:22.060 He has anger issues.

00:40:23.560 He's got resentment issues.

00:40:25.820 He's got childhood trauma,

00:40:27.780 all the things that we resonate with as human beings.

00:40:31.140 And I think that's why it's more compelling.

00:40:33.580 And I think a critical thing also with Reacher

00:40:35.820 is that his sort of personal code

00:40:38.400 is that he always gives the bad guy the opportunity

00:40:41.860 to surrender, to back down, to retreat, you know?

00:40:46.540 He never just says,

00:40:48.300 okay, this guy's bad, I'm going to take him out.

00:40:50.480 He will always confront him and say,

00:40:53.020 give him the opportunity to back down.

00:40:55.540 And then if the bad guy doesn't,

00:40:57.160 that's, you know, that's a second strike against, isn't it?

00:40:59.640 Not only has he done whatever the bad thing was

00:41:01.500 in the first place,

00:41:02.320 but he's also been stupid enough

00:41:04.500 to not take the opportunity

00:41:07.000 to walk away that Reacher's given him.

00:41:10.240 And arrogant, right?

00:41:11.540 Arrogant and egotistical.

00:41:13.560 Yeah, in a lot of ways,

00:41:14.640 I kind of conceptualize it.

00:41:16.740 Reacher has an arrogance to him

00:41:18.240 that Reacher believes that his worldview is correct

00:41:22.740 and Reacher believes that he will enforce it.

00:41:25.440 So it's a contest between the bad guy's arrogance

00:41:27.820 and Reacher's arrogance.

00:41:29.600 The bad guy's view and Reacher's view.

00:41:31.400 It's always a head-to-head on that.

00:41:35.480 And yeah, I think really interesting

00:41:38.360 what he said about the difference

00:41:39.460 between Superman and Batman,

00:41:40.740 because according to the legend,

00:41:42.940 Batman is a real person

00:41:44.520 who has super high-tech stuff.

00:41:48.680 You know, he has a Batmobile,

00:41:49.800 he has this and that,

00:41:50.560 but he's a human.

00:41:51.500 Whereas Superman is a space alien, effectively,

00:41:55.440 in the guise of a human.

00:41:57.120 And so the human story

00:41:58.740 is always much more interesting.

00:42:01.400 And what we try to do with Reacher

00:42:03.520 is that normal human stories,

00:42:06.880 the limitations on the character

00:42:08.800 are the same as the rest of us.

00:42:13.460 You know, maybe you're not physically invincible.

00:42:15.880 Maybe you're not the toughest guy in the room.

00:42:19.300 Reacher is more towards the invulnerable end

00:42:22.820 of the scale, but he's still a human

00:42:24.380 and he has sometimes capricious human reactions.

00:42:29.940 The way it seems to me,

00:42:31.320 Reacher lets a lot of stuff go,

00:42:34.080 but there's a certain line in the sand

00:42:36.000 that will trigger him

00:42:38.000 and will say, no, that is not right

00:42:40.180 and we're going to do something about this.

00:42:42.520 It could be nine times out of 10,

00:42:44.320 he just walks on by,

00:42:45.460 but the 10th time,

00:42:46.720 something about the situation

00:42:48.380 means that it is impossible

00:42:50.660 for him to walk away.

00:42:51.740 Is there something in particular

00:42:54.680 that's a common theme

00:42:57.180 among all the books

00:42:59.480 where that's what sets him off?

00:43:02.500 That's the trigger for getting involved.

00:43:04.440 Because you're right,

00:43:04.940 we see things every single day

00:43:06.680 and don't do anything.

00:43:07.720 But is there something that he's like,

00:43:09.220 that's the line

00:43:10.460 that I will not allow to be crossed?

00:43:12.900 Yeah, it's to do with the characteristics

00:43:15.400 of the bad guy.

00:43:16.340 I mean, there's a line

00:43:17.280 in one of the books

00:43:17.960 where there's a flashback

00:43:19.740 to Reacher's army days

00:43:20.900 and a fellow officer is asking him,

00:43:25.220 why did you become a military policeman?

00:43:27.640 You could have done anything.

00:43:29.120 You could have gone to special forces.

00:43:30.960 You could have gone

00:43:31.500 to the armored divisions.

00:43:32.680 Why the military police?

00:43:34.560 And Reacher just says

00:43:36.300 some throwaway answer.

00:43:37.700 He says, oh, you know,

00:43:38.700 I like to look after the little guy.

00:43:40.740 And his friend says, really?

00:43:42.580 You care about the little guy?

00:43:44.200 And Reacher is forced to consider it.

00:43:46.880 And he says, no,

00:43:48.680 I don't really care about the little guy.

00:43:50.720 I just hate the big guy.

00:43:53.220 I hate big, smug guys

00:43:55.300 who think they can get away with things.

00:43:58.160 And, you know, that comes from me,

00:44:00.940 comes from Andrew.

00:44:03.780 There's a certain threshold

00:44:05.700 of smugness and entitlement

00:44:08.380 and arrogance

00:44:09.720 that you just cannot resist.

00:44:11.740 You've got to take it down.

00:44:14.200 To shift gears a little bit,

00:44:17.520 I don't know,

00:44:18.880 and you please correct me

00:44:20.360 or inform me on this,

00:44:21.400 if there's any sort of precedence

00:44:22.940 about letting the protagonist die,

00:44:25.420 I am very curious,

00:44:26.860 why not allow that to happen?

00:44:29.580 And then, Andrew,

00:44:31.040 you to develop something different

00:44:33.480 as opposed to run with the legacy.

00:44:35.560 And I have a follow-up question to that,

00:44:36.740 but I am curious about that process

00:44:38.100 for both of you.

00:44:38.860 I think the, you know,

00:44:42.020 the obvious answer to that

00:44:43.220 is it's incredibly hard

00:44:45.080 to break into publishing,

00:44:48.020 incredibly hard

00:44:49.300 to get your story published and read.

00:44:52.420 And then it is difficult

00:44:54.920 and it's almost a lottery.

00:44:57.860 Five books from now,

00:44:59.380 10 books from now,

00:45:00.800 are you still in business?

00:45:02.640 Is your character well-known?

00:45:05.640 Is your character part

00:45:07.860 of the popular culture yet?

00:45:10.000 And it's almost statistically

00:45:12.260 almost impossible to do that.

00:45:14.400 And so if Reacher has reached that stage,

00:45:18.960 it would be suicidal to say,

00:45:22.980 no, let's start over again

00:45:24.340 with something else.

00:45:25.340 Because the atmosphere,

00:45:27.080 environment gets worse all the time.

00:45:29.020 It gets harder and harder.

00:45:30.160 So if you've got a well-known,

00:45:33.720 well-loved,

00:45:34.920 well-selling character,

00:45:36.560 it's insane not to continue it

00:45:40.620 on a purely commercial level.

00:45:44.300 Yeah.

00:45:44.640 And it's fundamentally,

00:45:46.200 it's the bargain

00:45:47.460 that you have with the readers.

00:45:48.560 I remember when I started out,

00:45:50.480 Lee said to me,

00:45:51.120 okay, well, you've got to remember.

00:45:52.480 Because, you know,

00:45:52.940 when you're starting to be an author,

00:45:54.160 there's all kinds of things

00:45:55.180 that you become aware of.

00:45:57.240 You know,

00:45:57.640 there are sites

00:45:58.660 where people review books.

00:45:59.880 There are conferences

00:46:00.780 where you go and meet other authors.

00:46:02.440 And there are panels that you go on

00:46:03.700 and all of these other things

00:46:04.740 that seem big and shiny

00:46:06.880 and exciting

00:46:07.520 that you want to be involved in.

00:46:09.000 And people often spend a lot of time

00:46:10.700 and put a lot of focus on those.

00:46:12.400 Remember Lee saying to me,

00:46:13.380 no, you've got to remember

00:46:14.320 that three priorities as an author

00:46:16.120 are the readers,

00:46:18.180 the readers,

00:46:19.340 and the readers.

00:46:20.160 None of the other stuff matters.

00:46:21.520 Giving the readers what they want

00:46:22.920 is all that matters.

00:46:24.940 And, you know,

00:46:26.600 the readers have voted.

00:46:28.180 They want Reacher.

00:46:28.900 So, yeah,

00:46:30.040 we absolutely could have killed him off

00:46:32.120 and done something else.

00:46:33.640 But that's not what people want.

00:46:35.920 People want Reacher.

00:46:36.900 So we do our best

00:46:38.380 to give them Reacher

00:46:39.980 and give them Reacher

00:46:41.100 in the way that they want it.

00:46:44.240 Yeah, have you...

00:46:45.560 I think it's...

00:46:46.100 Oh, go ahead.

00:46:46.460 Go ahead, Lee.

00:46:47.220 ...authors,

00:46:47.920 remember,

00:46:48.780 they are the servants

00:46:49.700 of the audience.

00:46:51.980 We're not the masters,

00:46:53.400 you know.

00:46:53.660 We're not sort of...

00:46:55.160 We're not allowed, really.

00:46:57.280 It's not our place

00:46:58.440 to just give whatever we want.

00:47:01.040 We have to serve the reader.

00:47:04.080 We...

00:47:04.740 There are only two people, really.

00:47:07.160 In the book world,

00:47:09.060 there's only two significant human beings,

00:47:11.060 the author and the reader.

00:47:12.500 All the characters are made up.

00:47:14.660 It's two people.

00:47:16.040 While somebody's reading my book,

00:47:17.440 it's me and it's them.

00:47:18.740 And what they want

00:47:20.820 as a private individual

00:47:22.960 is paramount.

00:47:24.220 And it would be ridiculous of me

00:47:26.000 and arrogant of me

00:47:26.900 to say,

00:47:27.360 look, I know what you want,

00:47:28.560 but I'm going to give you

00:47:29.240 something completely different.

00:47:31.040 That's just not part

00:47:32.720 of the transaction.

00:47:35.260 Do you think, though,

00:47:36.960 that there is some sort

00:47:38.260 of consideration

00:47:39.100 for what you

00:47:40.540 are both interested in?

00:47:41.920 You know,

00:47:42.140 we run into that mantra

00:47:43.340 of the customer is always right.

00:47:44.900 And I agree primarily

00:47:47.180 with the sentiment

00:47:48.040 because they're the one

00:47:48.880 buying the thing.

00:47:50.900 But also,

00:47:52.140 I want to do something

00:47:53.160 that I want to do.

00:47:54.480 And clearly,

00:47:55.360 you guys are doing

00:47:55.900 something you want to do,

00:47:57.060 but how do you strike

00:47:57.760 that balance?

00:47:58.620 Well, that's the amazing luck

00:47:59.960 that if you...

00:48:01.640 Because you're already

00:48:02.300 kind of capable

00:48:03.040 of doing a certain number

00:48:04.140 of things.

00:48:05.080 And if what I really want to do

00:48:07.000 is what the readers

00:48:08.340 really want to consume,

00:48:09.860 then that is the most

00:48:10.840 fantastic stroke of luck.

00:48:14.080 And to be honest,

00:48:15.720 I think that is certainly

00:48:16.940 my strength,

00:48:17.620 probably Andrew's strength,

00:48:19.180 that we are...

00:48:20.520 We have a great facility

00:48:22.600 for writing.

00:48:23.540 I can do the writing

00:48:24.960 really, really well.

00:48:27.000 But apart from that,

00:48:28.080 I'm a completely normal person

00:48:29.860 with completely normal desires.

00:48:32.260 So what I want

00:48:33.380 is very likely

00:48:34.640 what the reader wants,

00:48:35.700 and that is

00:48:36.240 the greatest good fortune.

00:48:37.900 I could be a brilliant writer

00:48:39.340 writing about

00:48:40.100 some really abstruse thing

00:48:41.740 that nobody was interested in,

00:48:43.720 selling a thousand books a year.

00:48:45.180 And that writing transaction

00:48:48.720 is complete,

00:48:49.960 but the audience is tiny.

00:48:51.740 I'm lucky that

00:48:52.620 what I want

00:48:53.400 is also what the reader wants.

00:48:55.200 In fact, you know,

00:48:55.900 to be pretentious about it,

00:48:57.180 there was...

00:48:58.200 Going back to Charles Dickens,

00:48:59.800 who, remember,

00:49:00.460 in the middle of the 19th century,

00:49:02.020 Charles Dickens

00:49:02.640 was probably the biggest,

00:49:04.380 most popular storyteller

00:49:05.760 in the world.

00:49:07.240 And much admired,

00:49:09.560 but very quickly

00:49:10.340 there was a backlash

00:49:11.200 set in against him.

00:49:12.360 And people said,

00:49:13.620 oh, he's just pandering

00:49:14.780 to the audience.

00:49:15.720 He's just giving them

00:49:17.460 what they want.

00:49:18.440 And then there was

00:49:19.020 a kind of re-backlash

00:49:20.860 where he was rehabilitated.

00:49:22.680 And another writer

00:49:23.700 called Chesterton

00:49:24.520 wrote a biography,

00:49:25.640 and he said,

00:49:27.520 Dickens does not

00:49:28.760 write what the audience wants.

00:49:33.160 Dickens wants

00:49:34.200 what the audience wants.

00:49:36.040 And that is the perfect situation

00:49:37.760 to be in.

00:49:38.380 And if what to me

00:49:39.920 is the burning issue

00:49:41.480 is also the burning issue

00:49:43.300 for the reader,

00:49:44.220 that is the greatest stroke

00:49:45.660 of luck.

00:49:46.460 How has the...

00:49:48.240 And I can definitely see that.

00:49:50.020 It looks like...

00:49:50.720 You said luck,

00:49:51.700 and the term that came to mind

00:49:53.260 for me was alignment

00:49:54.620 between my skill set

00:49:56.760 and what I desire

00:49:57.720 with the reader's desire.

00:49:59.140 And I'm sure both of you

00:50:00.520 have had tremendous failures

00:50:02.580 when it comes to

00:50:03.500 creating characters as well

00:50:04.640 where there was no alignment,

00:50:06.000 right?

00:50:06.340 That happens.

00:50:06.880 I am curious

00:50:09.120 if you have seen

00:50:12.760 or what the biggest trends

00:50:15.180 have been

00:50:16.100 from the time

00:50:17.180 that first novel was written

00:50:18.360 in, I believe it was 97,

00:50:20.760 so almost 30 years ago now,

00:50:22.820 to what a reader

00:50:24.240 might want now,

00:50:25.160 or is it pretty universal

00:50:26.560 over three decades?

00:50:28.800 Well, I was also going to say

00:50:30.460 that the slight element

00:50:33.240 of skill is knowing

00:50:34.720 what the reader is going to want

00:50:36.100 next year

00:50:36.960 when the book comes out.

00:50:38.880 You know,

00:50:39.100 that is a nuance there.

00:50:42.040 You can't copy

00:50:43.060 what's already popular.

00:50:44.180 You've got to have some sense

00:50:45.520 of what's going to be popular,

00:50:47.000 what the reader will need

00:50:48.500 next year

00:50:49.160 when the book comes out.

00:50:50.300 And I have noticed

00:50:52.220 the audience

00:50:53.140 change dramatically

00:50:55.120 because it's pretty consistent

00:50:56.920 in the Reacher books

00:50:57.800 that there are,

00:50:58.900 he acknowledges

00:51:00.020 incompetence

00:51:00.960 and sometimes corruption

00:51:02.560 amongst law enforcement agencies,

00:51:05.100 either police departments

00:51:06.220 or the FBI

00:51:07.200 or whatever.

00:51:07.860 He can be very scathing

00:51:09.420 and cynical about that.

00:51:11.280 And there are often characters,

00:51:13.900 bent coppers

00:51:14.840 or bad agents

00:51:16.520 and so on.

00:51:17.240 And in the early days,

00:51:18.860 30 years ago,

00:51:20.140 my mail was like,

00:51:22.020 oh,

00:51:22.220 that would never happen.

00:51:23.880 People trusted

00:51:24.860 those institutions more.

00:51:26.540 But over the 30 years,

00:51:27.840 now people are totally

00:51:28.720 on board with that.

00:51:29.580 They kind of know,

00:51:30.340 yeah,

00:51:30.540 they're used to it by now.

00:51:31.620 There are corrupt cops.

00:51:32.720 There are bad agents.

00:51:34.320 And so the audience

00:51:35.140 has drifted in a way

00:51:36.280 that I was kind of predicting,

00:51:38.320 which is sort of

00:51:38.940 what I'm saying,

00:51:39.840 that you give them

00:51:41.320 what they're going to need

00:51:42.260 next year.

00:51:43.480 Certainly don't give them

00:51:44.600 what they enjoyed last year

00:51:46.040 because that's an infinite

00:51:47.320 regression into the past.

00:51:49.320 You've got to be pushing it

00:51:50.220 into the future.

00:51:52.400 Andrew,

00:51:53.020 are there trends

00:51:53.740 as the author of the series?

00:51:55.560 Are there trends

00:51:56.760 in cultural events,

00:51:59.860 cultural consensus

00:52:02.480 that you're looking at

00:52:03.800 as you begin to write?

00:52:05.360 Because,

00:52:06.660 correct me if I'm wrong,

00:52:07.920 I want to say

00:52:08.560 there's been a book

00:52:09.720 released

00:52:10.380 just about every year.

00:52:12.940 I don't know if it's been

00:52:13.620 for that entire time frame,

00:52:15.340 but it's very,

00:52:16.880 very consistent.

00:52:18.620 So are there things

00:52:19.260 that you're looking at

00:52:19.960 ahead of for next year already?

00:52:21.940 Well,

00:52:23.260 yes.

00:52:24.820 Next year's book is,

00:52:26.260 the one that comes out

00:52:27.060 next year

00:52:27.520 will be number 30

00:52:28.780 in the series,

00:52:30.440 which is

00:52:30.960 pretty extraordinary

00:52:32.120 to have a series

00:52:33.520 that's been going

00:52:34.740 all that time.

00:52:36.380 And,

00:52:36.940 you know,

00:52:37.220 that is underway

00:52:38.140 as we speak.

00:52:39.800 But I think it's a thing,

00:52:41.060 I believe that you have to do it

00:52:42.560 in a kind of

00:52:43.200 instinctive way.

00:52:44.340 I think

00:52:45.680 the danger

00:52:46.800 of kind of

00:52:47.740 casting around

00:52:48.460 and looking to see

00:52:49.180 what you think

00:52:49.700 next year's bandwagon

00:52:50.680 will be

00:52:51.260 is really,

00:52:52.360 really dangerous.

00:52:53.280 You have to rely

00:52:54.540 on that

00:52:55.740 fortune

00:52:56.860 that Lee mentioned

00:52:57.780 of

00:52:58.080 tapping into

00:52:59.700 the same interests

00:53:00.780 and the same concerns

00:53:01.880 as everybody else,

00:53:03.820 you know,

00:53:03.980 because we are part of,

00:53:05.340 you know,

00:53:05.440 especially for me

00:53:06.200 because I'm the oldest

00:53:07.500 Reacher fan in the world.

00:53:08.880 You know,

00:53:09.120 I know what it's like

00:53:10.460 for Reacher fans

00:53:11.240 to wait

00:53:11.800 the year

00:53:12.380 for the next book

00:53:13.260 because I did that

00:53:14.320 for 24 years.

00:53:15.940 And so,

00:53:17.480 you know,

00:53:18.480 looking ahead

00:53:19.440 to next year,

00:53:20.480 trying to latch

00:53:21.480 on to what's

00:53:22.240 going to be important,

00:53:23.340 that's something

00:53:23.860 that you kind of feel,

00:53:24.900 that you sense,

00:53:25.980 everything that you're

00:53:26.860 reading in the news.

00:53:28.080 You know,

00:53:28.260 we talked about

00:53:28.980 the tragedy

00:53:29.840 with the

00:53:30.660 health executive.

00:53:33.860 What lies behind that

00:53:35.440 as we were talking about

00:53:36.480 would be

00:53:37.060 the sense of frustration

00:53:38.920 that's out there,

00:53:39.900 the sense of injustice

00:53:40.960 that's out there

00:53:41.940 and possibly

00:53:43.080 the blurring

00:53:44.500 of the line

00:53:45.520 between

00:53:46.080 what it's okay

00:53:47.040 to feel

00:53:47.600 and what people

00:53:48.460 wind up doing.

00:53:49.940 You know,

00:53:50.120 so there's all

00:53:51.540 that kind of stuff

00:53:52.420 swarming around

00:53:53.680 in the zeitgeist

00:53:54.880 and it's a question

00:53:55.900 of just sort of

00:53:57.020 absorbing it,

00:53:58.000 I think,

00:53:58.740 and letting it

00:53:59.740 guide

00:54:00.420 where you take

00:54:01.620 the story.

00:54:02.920 So,

00:54:03.360 it's absolutely

00:54:04.240 something that I'm

00:54:05.160 aware of

00:54:05.740 but I'm trying

00:54:06.740 not to

00:54:07.400 turn it into

00:54:08.540 a kind of

00:54:08.980 spreadsheet thing

00:54:09.800 where you think,

00:54:10.520 right,

00:54:10.800 you know,

00:54:11.000 this year we need

00:54:11.840 some from column A

00:54:12.920 and some from column B.

00:54:14.260 You know,

00:54:14.440 it has to be something

00:54:15.200 that feels like

00:54:16.380 it comes naturally

00:54:17.380 out of

00:54:18.200 the feeling

00:54:19.180 that you get

00:54:19.760 from the people

00:54:20.700 you talk to,

00:54:21.460 the news stories

00:54:22.160 that you read,

00:54:23.100 your family,

00:54:23.740 your friends,

00:54:24.820 what everybody

00:54:25.680 is doing

00:54:26.580 and how everybody

00:54:27.240 is feeling.

00:54:29.140 Andrew,

00:54:29.700 are there

00:54:30.000 thread lines

00:54:30.940 that are interesting

00:54:32.220 to you?

00:54:33.340 You know,

00:54:33.540 obviously we've talked

00:54:34.260 about this

00:54:34.640 healthcare executive

00:54:35.420 but are there

00:54:36.020 cultural thread lines

00:54:37.200 or stories,

00:54:37.980 narratives

00:54:38.260 that you think

00:54:39.620 that's compelling?

00:54:41.220 I can see that

00:54:42.100 it's a concern

00:54:43.240 for a lot of people.

00:54:44.180 I can see that

00:54:44.760 people are vested

00:54:45.500 in this

00:54:46.100 and if there are,

00:54:47.920 what are those

00:54:48.620 things for you?

00:54:49.840 I think very similar

00:54:51.140 to what Lee

00:54:51.720 was saying earlier.

00:54:52.640 I think if you

00:54:53.580 boil it right down

00:54:54.480 to its essence,

00:54:56.060 the thing that

00:54:57.860 really gets me

00:55:00.420 motivated,

00:55:01.220 gets me going

00:55:01.920 is the sense

00:55:03.240 of the bully,

00:55:04.760 you know,

00:55:05.400 and when I say

00:55:06.360 bully,

00:55:06.740 I don't necessarily

00:55:07.580 mean somebody

00:55:08.440 physically huge,

00:55:10.720 somebody that

00:55:11.240 has power

00:55:11.940 over other people

00:55:12.840 that maybe

00:55:13.340 comes from

00:55:14.000 money,

00:55:14.980 from corruption,

00:55:16.200 from,

00:55:16.580 you know,

00:55:17.340 their job,

00:55:19.000 their family,

00:55:20.020 something like that.

00:55:20.700 Somebody that

00:55:21.180 has this advantage

00:55:22.860 and they choose

00:55:24.140 to use it

00:55:24.780 to harm other people

00:55:25.940 rather than

00:55:26.500 to help them.

00:55:27.840 That,

00:55:28.340 if you boil it down,

00:55:29.280 is the thing

00:55:29.680 that always

00:55:30.460 lights that fuse,

00:55:32.260 you know,

00:55:32.560 and I think

00:55:33.320 that that will

00:55:34.280 be something

00:55:34.980 that will typically

00:55:35.900 be there

00:55:37.240 at some level.

00:55:38.720 Now,

00:55:38.960 how you bring

00:55:39.700 that to the fore

00:55:40.580 in the story,

00:55:41.800 whether you have

00:55:42.440 an individual

00:55:43.240 who's corrupt,

00:55:44.740 whether you have

00:55:45.180 an organization

00:55:45.780 that they're working

00:55:46.740 for that's allowed

00:55:47.500 this to happen,

00:55:48.800 that is something

00:55:50.660 that you decide

00:55:51.420 instinctively

00:55:52.100 while you're

00:55:52.680 writing the story,

00:55:53.660 but I think

00:55:54.260 it always boils down

00:55:55.180 to somebody

00:55:55.720 who is trying

00:55:57.260 to get some kind

00:55:58.060 of get over

00:55:58.980 on other people

00:55:59.920 in some unfair

00:56:01.040 or unreasonable way.

00:56:03.340 And that,

00:56:04.040 you know,

00:56:05.120 that is something

00:56:05.860 that we are aware

00:56:06.700 of in our own lives,

00:56:08.180 Lee and I,

00:56:09.400 things that we look

00:56:10.460 back on,

00:56:10.980 and sometimes you think,

00:56:11.960 God,

00:56:12.200 what was I thinking?

00:56:13.260 Why did I do that?

00:56:14.540 But in the moment,

00:56:15.600 you didn't have a choice

00:56:16.560 because you were confronted

00:56:18.060 with this disgusting person

00:56:19.940 and you had to deal

00:56:21.220 with it.

00:56:22.620 I imagine the balance

00:56:24.300 would be

00:56:25.040 taking those common

00:56:27.460 threads,

00:56:28.060 of a bully,

00:56:28.840 right,

00:56:29.140 or the underdog story

00:56:30.620 that we're all

00:56:31.200 familiar with and love

00:56:32.120 and then plugging

00:56:34.100 a cultural event

00:56:35.500 into that equation.

00:56:38.040 Maybe you guys

00:56:38.800 would term it

00:56:39.240 different than an equation,

00:56:40.180 but plugging that in,

00:56:41.360 but also not being

00:56:43.320 too on the nose

00:56:44.720 because that gets

00:56:46.240 a little tricky,

00:56:47.020 I imagine,

00:56:47.520 and a little too sensitive.

00:56:48.740 Maybe it's,

00:56:49.700 you know,

00:56:49.860 I think about

00:56:50.260 the World Trade Center

00:56:51.200 and some of the stories

00:56:53.700 and books that were

00:56:54.360 coming out about terrorism

00:56:55.740 and then you couple that

00:56:56.880 with an actual

00:56:57.520 tragic,

00:56:58.700 horrific event

00:56:59.380 and it's too

00:56:59.960 on the nose

00:57:01.040 for it to be

00:57:02.320 valuable to people.

00:57:03.840 Yeah,

00:57:04.120 it is and you've got

00:57:04.820 to be very careful

00:57:05.540 about the tone.

00:57:06.920 You know,

00:57:07.040 you don't want to come,

00:57:08.160 you know,

00:57:08.480 you might be really aware

00:57:09.620 of some theme

00:57:10.400 or some issue.

00:57:11.740 You know,

00:57:12.260 one of the books

00:57:13.080 that we did together

00:57:13.960 involved veterans

00:57:15.700 who hadn't been treated,

00:57:17.860 hadn't been looked after

00:57:18.940 the way they should have done

00:57:20.180 when they came back

00:57:20.960 to the United States

00:57:21.940 due to exposure

00:57:23.820 to toxic chemicals.

00:57:25.840 You know,

00:57:26.440 you know,

00:57:27.200 it's a situation

00:57:27.880 where they were being

00:57:28.620 denied Purple Hearts

00:57:29.820 when they shouldn't have been.

00:57:30.920 You know,

00:57:31.140 really bad stuff.

00:57:32.600 And the trouble is

00:57:33.180 if you just take it

00:57:34.800 head on and preach,

00:57:36.420 it puts people off.

00:57:38.100 You have to find

00:57:38.740 a bleak way

00:57:40.840 of introducing it,

00:57:41.900 you know.

00:57:42.420 And, you know,

00:57:42.920 going back to,

00:57:43.580 you mentioned,

00:57:44.380 you know,

00:57:44.620 the interest in storytelling,

00:57:46.100 you know,

00:57:46.340 storytelling over the years.

00:57:48.380 If you go back

00:57:49.140 to Shakespeare

00:57:49.700 as an example,

00:57:50.960 if he wanted to be

00:57:52.160 critical of the monarch,

00:57:54.520 you couldn't do that

00:57:55.860 because, you know,

00:57:57.520 he'd wind up in the tower.

00:57:59.080 So he couldn't

00:58:00.060 criticize the current monarch.

00:58:01.680 So what he would have to do

00:58:02.920 would be write a play

00:58:04.060 about the monarch

00:58:04.980 five,

00:58:06.060 ten,

00:58:06.600 you know,

00:58:07.560 monarchs ago.

00:58:08.900 And that way,

00:58:10.060 it's not criticizing the monarch.

00:58:11.960 It's talking about

00:58:13.000 an interesting

00:58:13.620 historical situation.

00:58:15.460 And if people happen

00:58:16.360 to draw conclusions,

00:58:17.360 that the monarch in question

00:58:19.200 didn't do something well,

00:58:20.580 didn't do something right,

00:58:22.440 then it just becomes

00:58:23.240 an interesting talking point,

00:58:24.780 not something treasonous

00:58:26.380 that warns you in trouble.

00:58:28.020 And, you know,

00:58:28.420 it's a similar principle

00:58:29.720 for us.

00:58:30.320 You have to do something

00:58:31.240 where you create

00:58:31.960 a different environment

00:58:32.840 so that you can look

00:58:34.280 at the thing

00:58:34.800 through a detached lens,

00:58:36.240 not something

00:58:36.960 that people are going

00:58:37.720 to feel personally criticized

00:58:39.280 or personally preached to

00:58:41.760 because it just

00:58:42.620 puts people off.

00:58:45.140 It seems like

00:58:46.000 that's a tricky

00:58:48.320 line to walk

00:58:49.840 because you have

00:58:50.520 to treat your reader

00:58:51.320 as an intelligent

00:58:52.080 reader.

00:58:53.960 I don't know

00:58:55.300 if you guys

00:58:55.660 are familiar

00:58:56.080 with The Sphere,

00:58:57.660 which is basically

00:58:58.560 a big amphitheater

00:58:59.500 in Las Vegas.

00:59:00.720 And they created

00:59:01.480 this huge amphitheater

00:59:02.620 and it's amazing.

00:59:04.340 And I went down there

00:59:05.100 and I watched,

00:59:06.220 you know,

00:59:07.000 the movie

00:59:07.920 and all of that,

00:59:08.700 but it was so

00:59:09.580 blatantly obvious

00:59:11.120 what they were trying

00:59:11.840 to do

00:59:12.160 that I almost felt

00:59:13.000 like you're assuming

00:59:14.280 I'm an idiot.

00:59:15.040 I know what you're doing.

00:59:16.260 And it was about

00:59:16.920 climate activism.

00:59:18.060 I know what you're doing.

00:59:19.540 You didn't disguise

00:59:20.540 it well enough.

00:59:21.440 I'm sure that's

00:59:22.140 a tricky

00:59:22.600 line to walk.

00:59:25.340 It is,

00:59:26.040 but you've hit

00:59:27.460 the, you know,

00:59:28.000 the answer right

00:59:28.640 on the head

00:59:29.060 and that is to

00:59:29.900 respect the audience.

00:59:31.180 If you,

00:59:32.180 you know,

00:59:32.420 unless you start out

00:59:33.860 with the assumption

00:59:35.040 that your audience

00:59:35.860 are smart

00:59:36.620 and intelligent

00:59:37.300 and nuanced people

00:59:39.100 who are going

00:59:39.560 to understand,

00:59:41.060 particularly

00:59:41.540 in most situations

00:59:43.560 there isn't

00:59:44.580 just a single

00:59:45.240 right answer.

00:59:46.040 There are variations.

00:59:47.320 There are variables.

00:59:48.960 There are things

00:59:49.420 that might work

00:59:50.040 in one sense

00:59:50.680 and might not

00:59:51.220 work in another.

00:59:52.280 There are things

00:59:52.860 where people

00:59:53.360 might have had

00:59:53.960 really good intentions

00:59:55.300 and they didn't mean

00:59:56.540 for the bad outcomes

00:59:57.500 that came about.

00:59:58.740 You have to give people

00:59:59.920 the benefit of the doubt

01:00:00.920 to say,

01:00:01.560 if you describe it

01:00:03.280 reasonably well,

01:00:04.480 they will have

01:00:05.080 the intelligence

01:00:05.700 to understand it

01:00:07.320 and interpret it.

01:00:08.540 They don't need

01:00:09.080 to be beaten

01:00:09.540 over the head.

01:00:10.200 And so,

01:00:11.660 yeah,

01:00:12.080 you know,

01:00:12.860 the answer

01:00:13.620 was in the question.

01:00:14.700 It's respect

01:00:15.560 the audience

01:00:16.160 and understand

01:00:17.040 that you're dealing

01:00:17.700 with intelligent

01:00:18.420 and nuanced people.

01:00:20.960 And feel the audience.

01:00:23.040 You know,

01:00:23.860 you've got to do this

01:00:25.360 by instinct.

01:00:26.200 You can't do it

01:00:27.060 like a laundry list

01:00:28.100 or a shopping list.

01:00:29.560 You can't say,

01:00:30.780 yeah,

01:00:30.900 I need these elements

01:00:31.980 in next year's book.

01:00:33.380 You've just got to

01:00:34.220 do it blind

01:00:35.140 by instinct

01:00:36.500 and you'll get it right

01:00:38.320 if you have

01:00:40.000 thought,

01:00:40.960 the same thoughts

01:00:41.720 that the audience

01:00:42.500 is feeling themselves.

01:00:44.960 And that is

01:00:46.120 the one strength,

01:00:47.300 the one skill

01:00:48.280 that novelists have

01:00:49.520 possibly that other

01:00:50.480 people don't.

01:00:51.260 It's our job

01:00:52.260 to imagine

01:00:53.280 being different people.

01:00:56.160 You know,

01:00:56.780 it's very easy

01:00:58.260 to say,

01:00:59.120 yeah,

01:01:00.140 Reacher is based on me.

01:01:01.900 You know,

01:01:02.220 that's a question

01:01:03.360 we get all the time.

01:01:04.520 How much of Reacher

01:01:05.380 is you?

01:01:06.420 And that's

01:01:06.820 a pleasant question.

01:01:08.300 It's a benign question

01:01:09.520 because he's

01:01:10.140 the good guy.

01:01:11.440 And they're saying,

01:01:11.980 so how much

01:01:12.400 of this good guy

01:01:13.200 is you?

01:01:14.020 And you want to say,

01:01:15.160 well,

01:01:15.380 yeah,

01:01:15.580 a lot of it.

01:01:16.420 But you've also

01:01:17.400 got the book

01:01:18.040 full of really bad guys.

01:01:19.860 How much of you

01:01:20.840 is the bad guy?

01:01:22.100 And the fact

01:01:22.920 of the matter

01:01:23.360 is,

01:01:24.140 yeah,

01:01:24.620 plenty.

01:01:25.700 Because you have,

01:01:27.160 it's your stock

01:01:27.860 in trade.

01:01:28.500 It is your

01:01:28.860 professional skill

01:01:29.940 to imagine

01:01:31.140 being a bad person.

01:01:33.860 And so it is,

01:01:35.300 as an extension

01:01:36.460 of that,

01:01:37.240 we live our lives

01:01:38.700 imagining being

01:01:40.340 the regular person

01:01:41.280 on the street.

01:01:42.680 We have

01:01:43.580 not so much sympathy,

01:01:45.640 but empathy.

01:01:46.580 We can be that.

01:01:48.820 And so what you do,

01:01:50.300 you're going to write

01:01:50.820 the book by instinct

01:01:51.740 and what you're

01:01:52.580 basing it on

01:01:53.320 is what you know

01:01:54.940 the audience is feeling.

01:01:56.980 And right now,

01:01:58.100 you know,

01:01:58.380 if we're going to

01:01:59.540 look at a trend

01:02:00.240 that maybe lasts

01:02:01.160 10 years,

01:02:02.100 it is the

01:02:03.520 economic unfairness.

01:02:06.160 Because right now

01:02:07.600 in our society,

01:02:08.440 we've got two things

01:02:10.120 that are true

01:02:10.700 simultaneously.

01:02:11.860 The economy

01:02:12.460 is actually fantastic.

01:02:15.360 By definition,

01:02:16.660 the American economy

01:02:17.540 right now

01:02:18.180 is the biggest

01:02:18.960 and the best economy

01:02:20.160 that has ever existed

01:02:21.540 in human history.

01:02:22.960 That is true

01:02:23.980 numerically.

01:02:25.640 But it is also true

01:02:27.040 that regular folk

01:02:28.340 are not feeling it.

01:02:30.220 That is true.

01:02:31.300 So how can both

01:02:32.840 of those things

01:02:33.620 be true?

01:02:34.700 And the answer

01:02:35.440 to that is

01:02:35.920 because the people

01:02:36.940 at the top

01:02:38.320 are stealing it all.

01:02:40.380 They're not passing

01:02:41.440 down the share

01:02:42.340 to the regular guy

01:02:43.400 anymore.

01:02:44.380 In the 50s,

01:02:45.300 they did.

01:02:46.020 If you were a

01:02:46.860 working stiff

01:02:47.540 in the 50s,

01:02:48.760 you could raise

01:02:49.500 a family with one job,

01:02:51.360 you could buy a house,

01:02:52.360 you could have a vacation.

01:02:53.980 Maybe after 10 years,

01:02:55.440 you can buy a boat.

01:02:56.900 Maybe after 15 years,

01:02:58.320 you can buy

01:02:58.860 a cabin on the lake.

01:03:00.200 That's how it used to be.

01:03:01.500 And it's not like that anymore

01:03:02.740 because the people

01:03:03.560 at the top

01:03:04.100 are stealing all the money.

01:03:05.880 And sooner or later,

01:03:06.960 that is a trend

01:03:07.960 that is going to produce

01:03:08.980 tremendous anger

01:03:09.980 and some kind of,

01:03:11.740 I'm not saying

01:03:13.340 overt revolution,

01:03:14.840 but people are just

01:03:15.560 not going to take it anymore.

01:03:17.020 And that is the trend

01:03:17.940 that's building up.

01:03:19.320 So don't write a book

01:03:21.200 about economics.

01:03:22.240 Don't write a book

01:03:23.000 about income tax

01:03:24.060 or anything like that.

01:03:24.900 But write a book

01:03:25.660 that somehow

01:03:26.240 instinctively trades

01:03:27.900 on that outrage

01:03:29.500 that life is no longer fair.

01:03:33.000 And that is a huge,

01:03:34.880 it is such a basic,

01:03:37.040 almost childish feeling.

01:03:38.820 It ain't fair,

01:03:40.440 but that's a huge thing

01:03:42.220 in human life.

01:03:44.820 I think that's a good,

01:03:45.880 I mean, that is,

01:03:46.540 that's the Robin Hood story,

01:03:48.340 right?

01:03:49.080 We were talking about,

01:03:49.940 I mean, that is the story.

01:03:51.760 You see this huge disparity

01:03:53.900 between the way

01:03:54.860 the average person lives

01:03:56.120 and the way

01:03:56.480 the elites live

01:03:57.340 and it still exists today.

01:03:58.640 I saw a chart

01:03:59.620 not too long ago

01:04:00.680 of the average price

01:04:05.940 of homes in America

01:04:07.260 year by year

01:04:08.880 relative to wages

01:04:10.960 and it's repulsive.

01:04:12.980 It's disgusting.

01:04:14.120 Yeah, it is.

01:04:14.920 And so I can certainly

01:04:15.900 see that being a,

01:04:17.640 I mean, a guy,

01:04:18.200 being an interesting topic.

01:04:19.480 A guy my age,

01:04:20.440 you could buy a house

01:04:21.340 way back,

01:04:22.260 you could buy a house

01:04:23.040 for three years' salary

01:04:24.400 and everybody did

01:04:27.320 and now it's completely

01:04:29.260 out of reach

01:04:29.920 for practically everybody.

01:04:31.740 Back in the day,

01:04:33.040 the boss,

01:04:33.640 the owner of the company

01:04:34.500 was making maybe 30 times

01:04:36.580 what the worker was making.

01:04:39.400 Now it's 3,000 times

01:04:41.900 what the worker is making

01:04:43.080 and that will produce

01:04:45.160 a kind of building

01:04:47.300 of resentment and anger

01:04:48.840 that has to be addressed

01:04:50.040 in some way

01:04:50.780 and fiction is going

01:04:52.040 to reflect that.

01:04:53.080 As you say,

01:04:53.880 not on the nose.

01:04:54.800 On the nose is the worst

01:04:55.920 thing you can do.

01:04:57.040 It's got to be some kind

01:04:58.160 of nuanced parallel

01:04:59.340 reference to it

01:05:00.580 but it's all about

01:05:02.660 is life fair?

01:05:05.240 If people are,

01:05:06.640 if people have a terrible life

01:05:08.140 and they understand

01:05:10.480 that they blew it,

01:05:12.100 they had their chance,

01:05:13.260 the playing field was level

01:05:14.680 and they blew it,

01:05:15.760 that's one situation.

01:05:16.940 If you have the alternative

01:05:20.160 where somebody's working

01:05:21.420 their ass off,

01:05:22.900 diligent,

01:05:24.340 committed,

01:05:25.120 and they're still not making it

01:05:26.540 because the playing field

01:05:28.180 is not level,

01:05:29.440 that is going to produce disaster

01:05:31.120 and that is going to be

01:05:32.340 the trend in fiction,

01:05:33.800 I think,

01:05:34.460 an exploration of unfairness

01:05:37.440 and what can we do about it.

01:05:39.980 I'm also really glad

01:05:41.180 that you talked about

01:05:42.020 how much of you

01:05:42.740 is the bad guy

01:05:43.480 because in preparing

01:05:44.620 for this conversation,

01:05:46.160 I have made the mental commitment,

01:05:47.740 I am not going to ask

01:05:49.040 how much of the character

01:05:50.480 is in both of you

01:05:51.720 because that question

01:05:54.120 has already been answered.

01:05:55.060 I don't need to ask that question

01:05:56.140 so I'm really glad

01:05:56.860 that you gave that perspective

01:05:58.080 but it was interesting.

01:05:59.880 Years ago,

01:06:00.480 I had a conversation

01:06:01.420 with Randall Wallace

01:06:02.980 who wrote the screenplay

01:06:04.960 for Braveheart

01:06:06.360 and Braveheart is often quoted

01:06:09.020 as William Wallace

01:06:09.980 saying these incredibly poignant phrases

01:06:13.960 and powerful phrases

01:06:15.320 and Randall said something

01:06:16.720 interesting to me.

01:06:17.560 He said,

01:06:18.400 William Wallace

01:06:19.260 didn't say those things,

01:06:20.840 I said those things

01:06:22.060 and that was accurate

01:06:24.900 and a little bit enlightening

01:06:26.580 for me as well.

01:06:28.140 Yeah, absolutely right

01:06:29.560 but he also said

01:06:30.500 the bad things,

01:06:31.420 you know,

01:06:31.700 the king

01:06:32.640 or the lord

01:06:33.800 or whatever it was

01:06:34.680 was also doing.

01:06:35.920 We are all those people

01:06:37.120 and it's very unsettling

01:06:38.900 and I didn't really think about it

01:06:40.780 until somebody mentioned it

01:06:42.000 because you're used

01:06:43.080 to that warm question

01:06:44.280 how much of the good guy is you

01:06:46.620 and you want to say

01:06:47.300 oh yeah,

01:06:47.900 pretty much all of it

01:06:48.720 but then somebody said

01:06:50.140 yeah,

01:06:50.400 how much of the bad guy is you

01:06:51.720 and that really made me pause

01:06:53.540 and I really thought about it

01:06:54.920 and I think the bad guys

01:06:56.380 in the Reacher books

01:06:57.160 are pretty convincing

01:06:57.980 because we live them

01:07:00.120 for that period.

01:07:01.260 We are them

01:07:01.900 for that period

01:07:03.160 and it is,

01:07:04.280 that is unsettling to me.

01:07:05.840 You know,

01:07:06.120 I'm a vicious,

01:07:07.060 nasty person

01:07:07.920 as well as a nice person.

01:07:09.620 I want to ask both of you

01:07:12.540 one more question.

01:07:13.440 It's the same question.

01:07:14.620 A lot of guys get wrapped up

01:07:16.340 in a bit of an identity crisis

01:07:18.500 when certain things go away

01:07:20.720 that are an integral part

01:07:21.820 of their life

01:07:22.440 and so Lee,

01:07:23.200 for you,

01:07:24.460 almost five years ago now,

01:07:26.460 you let go of a part

01:07:27.660 of your life

01:07:28.660 that I imagine

01:07:29.420 was pretty integral.

01:07:30.500 I think,

01:07:30.860 I think Jack Reacher

01:07:32.600 and Lee Child

01:07:33.260 became in a way

01:07:34.660 synonymous

01:07:35.320 with each other

01:07:36.300 and I'm wondering

01:07:37.960 if that has impacted you

01:07:40.960 from an identity level

01:07:41.940 and then Andrew,

01:07:42.680 for you,

01:07:43.300 I would ask

01:07:43.840 the same question

01:07:44.740 as you take on this

01:07:46.040 over the past

01:07:46.620 four or five years,

01:07:47.660 how you avoid

01:07:48.720 making it part of

01:07:51.020 like who you are

01:07:53.260 as a human being

01:07:54.060 if that makes sense.

01:07:55.700 I think for me,

01:07:56.680 it actually,

01:07:57.520 in a funny way,

01:07:58.640 reinforced my sense

01:08:00.320 of identity

01:08:00.840 because what I was

01:08:02.020 really doing,

01:08:02.820 I think I was honoring

01:08:05.120 a feeling

01:08:06.640 that I had

01:08:07.520 much earlier

01:08:08.180 in my life

01:08:08.980 when I was young,

01:08:10.520 you know,

01:08:10.860 when I was just

01:08:11.680 starting out

01:08:12.360 in my 20s.

01:08:14.540 I was intensely

01:08:16.040 resentful

01:08:16.900 of the old guys,

01:08:18.760 the older generation

01:08:19.700 who just stuck

01:08:20.560 around forever.

01:08:21.600 They would not

01:08:22.080 get off the stage.

01:08:23.280 They would not

01:08:23.920 give space

01:08:24.660 to anybody else

01:08:25.720 and I said

01:08:28.180 to myself,

01:08:28.880 I hate that.

01:08:29.880 You know,

01:08:30.260 I think we need

01:08:31.400 opportunity

01:08:32.240 for young people.

01:08:33.200 I wanted to move

01:08:34.180 in and move up

01:08:35.100 and I was prevented

01:08:36.360 by the old generation

01:08:38.100 cluttering up the place

01:08:39.340 and I think

01:08:40.640 stopping was an odd

01:08:43.260 decision to make.

01:08:44.300 Nobody does that

01:08:45.260 but I did it

01:08:46.160 because I thought back

01:08:47.460 and I am now

01:08:48.740 the old guy

01:08:49.500 that has taken up

01:08:51.180 all the space.

01:08:51.920 It's time for me

01:08:52.540 to move off

01:08:53.260 and let the next generation

01:08:55.300 have their moment

01:08:56.580 and so

01:08:57.820 rather than

01:08:59.720 damaging myself,

01:09:01.260 sense of identity

01:09:02.480 it kind of

01:09:03.360 reinforced it.

01:09:04.720 I'm a little

01:09:05.780 proud of myself

01:09:06.740 that I stuck

01:09:07.900 to my guns

01:09:08.580 and said

01:09:08.980 no,

01:09:09.420 this is what

01:09:10.100 you believed

01:09:10.760 all those years ago.

01:09:12.360 It would be

01:09:13.000 totally hypocritical

01:09:14.120 if you now

01:09:14.840 not to put it

01:09:16.260 into practice.

01:09:17.320 So,

01:09:18.160 I feel pretty good

01:09:19.360 about it.

01:09:19.820 Plus I think

01:09:20.560 you know,

01:09:21.680 it's a job.

01:09:23.220 It's a great job.

01:09:24.540 I gotta say

01:09:25.120 it's the best job

01:09:25.940 in the world

01:09:26.500 but it's a job

01:09:27.480 and we work jobs

01:09:28.880 and we retire.

01:09:30.480 You know,

01:09:30.680 that is an essential

01:09:31.680 part of your life.

01:09:33.220 You have education

01:09:34.340 a little bit

01:09:34.960 at the beginning,

01:09:35.980 you work a very long time

01:09:37.520 and then you retire

01:09:38.760 and that is a valid

01:09:40.140 part of your life

01:09:41.200 where you sit back

01:09:42.420 and you look back

01:09:44.320 and you say,

01:09:44.940 yeah,

01:09:45.260 I did pretty good

01:09:46.300 but now

01:09:47.140 I'm gonna just relax

01:09:48.420 and enjoy.

01:09:49.820 You know,

01:09:50.040 I think for me

01:09:50.720 it's played into

01:09:51.880 that idea

01:09:53.160 that you hear a lot

01:09:54.600 which is that

01:09:55.420 in life

01:09:56.820 if you look

01:09:57.580 outside for validation

01:09:59.400 it can be very superficial.

01:10:01.520 You have to

01:10:02.180 try to

01:10:03.020 be satisfied yourself.

01:10:04.660 You have to be

01:10:05.200 in a situation

01:10:05.860 where you can say,

01:10:07.240 you know,

01:10:07.560 I have done the best job

01:10:08.800 that I can

01:10:09.480 and then

01:10:10.400 not link that

01:10:11.500 to something like

01:10:13.200 bestseller charts

01:10:14.620 or

01:10:15.020 what happens

01:10:16.380 at a book conference

01:10:17.600 or something

01:10:18.200 because the thing

01:10:19.480 for me

01:10:19.780 is that

01:10:20.060 I'm doing

01:10:20.940 exactly the same job

01:10:22.020 that I was doing

01:10:22.740 before I was involved

01:10:25.220 with Reacher

01:10:25.700 when I was writing

01:10:26.800 my books

01:10:27.620 under my own name

01:10:28.460 and so

01:10:29.640 the response

01:10:30.500 is very different now

01:10:31.660 and

01:10:32.680 I look at that

01:10:34.000 and I think

01:10:34.580 well

01:10:34.920 that shows

01:10:35.920 that it's not

01:10:36.720 it's not about me

01:10:38.260 it's about Reacher

01:10:39.980 people love Reacher

01:10:41.060 and so

01:10:41.900 since I'm involved

01:10:42.660 with Reacher

01:10:43.200 that's changed

01:10:45.060 the way that people

01:10:46.540 respond to me

01:10:47.400 and I find that

01:10:48.340 you know

01:10:48.640 you can take some real

01:10:49.760 encouragement from that

01:10:51.200 because it shows you

01:10:52.420 that

01:10:53.060 those external things

01:10:55.060 are out of your control

01:10:57.240 the thing that you can control

01:10:58.940 is how hard you work

01:11:00.280 how well you do your job

01:11:01.800 and ultimately

01:11:02.840 as long as you can

01:11:04.080 look yourself in the mirror

01:11:05.080 and say

01:11:05.960 I did the best I can do

01:11:07.480 that is what I think

01:11:09.600 you should aim for in life

01:11:11.300 and it's really demonstrated to me

01:11:13.320 that the external part

01:11:14.500 is separate

01:11:15.200 the thing that matters

01:11:17.160 is knowing

01:11:18.060 that you're doing

01:11:18.780 the best job

01:11:19.680 that you can do

01:11:20.500 and that comes

01:11:22.340 from where we grew up

01:11:23.680 we grew up

01:11:24.320 in a sort of

01:11:25.060 hardscrabble

01:11:25.740 industrial city

01:11:26.640 that did the work

01:11:27.920 you know

01:11:28.760 they did it

01:11:29.360 and they did it right

01:11:30.380 and they

01:11:30.960 without drama

01:11:32.000 without fuss

01:11:32.920 without patting themselves

01:11:34.240 on the back

01:11:34.980 you do the work

01:11:36.040 and

01:11:37.140 that has certainly

01:11:38.560 informed my life

01:11:39.620 you do the work

01:11:40.800 you do it right

01:11:42.000 you can be quietly

01:11:43.640 proud of it

01:11:44.280 but you don't make

01:11:44.980 a big scene out of it

01:11:46.280 and

01:11:46.860 then you stop doing it

01:11:49.620 at some point

01:11:50.280 when

01:11:50.720 when you sense

01:11:51.780 you're running out of gas

01:11:53.040 you're running out of energy

01:11:54.140 there is this

01:11:54.860 fantastically talented

01:11:56.280 next generation

01:11:57.740 coming

01:11:58.180 this is their time

01:11:59.400 now

01:11:59.640 not mine

01:12:00.240 well Andrew Lee

01:12:01.640 I really appreciate

01:12:02.640 your guys' work

01:12:03.960 your

01:12:04.300 obviously

01:12:04.700 your creativity

01:12:05.500 the work that you do

01:12:07.240 the stories that you share

01:12:08.240 the lessons that we can learn

01:12:09.440 from it

01:12:09.880 I'm very fascinated Lee

01:12:11.200 with what you said

01:12:12.080 about learning more

01:12:12.920 from fiction

01:12:13.520 than you can

01:12:14.020 from non-fiction

01:12:14.720 I'm gonna sit on that one

01:12:16.840 for a minute

01:12:17.200 and think about that

01:12:18.060 but I am very fascinated

01:12:19.100 with that concept

01:12:20.000 the new series

01:12:21.620 comes out on Amazon

01:12:22.680 in a couple of days

01:12:23.840 as of the release

01:12:24.640 of this podcast

01:12:25.260 so we'll make sure

01:12:26.340 we check that out

01:12:27.120 but I want to tell you both

01:12:28.360 I appreciate you

01:12:29.060 and thank you for joining me today

01:12:30.080 thanks Ryan

01:12:30.860 real pleasure

01:12:31.460 it's been a pleasure

01:12:32.680 thanks for having us

01:12:33.700 gentlemen

01:12:36.560 there you go

01:12:36.960 my conversation

01:12:37.720 with the iconic duo

01:12:39.120 Lee and Andrew Child

01:12:40.380 and of course

01:12:41.360 the iconic character

01:12:42.360 Mr. Jack Reacher

01:12:43.420 I hope that you

01:12:45.820 check this one out

01:12:46.640 I hope you enjoyed

01:12:47.400 this conversation

01:12:48.260 some of these are

01:12:49.080 a little bit off base

01:12:50.000 from what we've done

01:12:50.640 in the past

01:12:51.200 but I think it's important

01:12:52.420 to have people

01:12:55.360 and characters

01:12:56.160 that we aspire

01:12:58.220 to be like

01:12:58.920 or at least

01:12:59.520 there's elements

01:13:00.300 of those characters

01:13:01.280 that we want to be like

01:13:02.540 I think that's the power

01:13:03.460 of story

01:13:04.120 and fictional characters

01:13:05.760 which is not something

01:13:06.820 I've adhered to

01:13:08.280 my entire life

01:13:09.300 but the older I get

01:13:10.960 the more that I can see

01:13:12.060 that having heroes

01:13:13.920 and having iconic characters

01:13:16.720 and having virtues

01:13:17.900 that are black and white

01:13:20.420 in some way

01:13:21.180 are a very powerful way

01:13:22.920 to frame how we ought

01:13:25.220 to be showing up

01:13:26.060 as men

01:13:26.560 and of course

01:13:27.440 Lee and Andrew Child

01:13:28.400 have worked with Amazon

01:13:29.240 now for years

01:13:30.120 they've got their new

01:13:31.240 Reacher series

01:13:32.440 coming out in the next week

01:13:33.560 and I hope you are

01:13:35.800 willing and able

01:13:37.560 and have a desire

01:13:38.560 to tune into that

01:13:39.360 because again

01:13:39.980 aspirational goals

01:13:41.500 and characters

01:13:43.500 that we all believe in

01:13:44.480 so if you like this one

01:13:45.500 let me know

01:13:46.020 reach out to me

01:13:46.900 send me a message

01:13:47.960 on Instagram

01:13:49.240 Facebook

01:13:49.760 Twitter

01:13:50.120 all at Ryan Mickler

01:13:51.380 M-I-C-H-L-E-R

01:13:53.560 there's an H in there

01:13:54.700 I know

01:13:55.180 it confuses things

01:13:56.320 but there is

01:13:57.020 M-I-C-H-L-E-R

01:13:58.660 and we hope to see you

01:14:00.720 on the socials

01:14:02.420 connect with me

01:14:03.120 connect with

01:14:04.380 Lee and Andrew

01:14:05.320 read their books

01:14:06.680 watch their

01:14:07.980 the movies

01:14:09.160 and of course

01:14:09.720 the new series

01:14:10.380 out on Amazon

01:14:11.320 coming here very soon

01:14:13.020 if you have any questions

01:14:14.620 let me know

01:14:15.080 if you have any thoughts

01:14:15.740 or considerations

01:14:16.420 or feedback

01:14:17.000 or critique

01:14:17.660 or even suggestions

01:14:19.080 about who you'd like

01:14:20.080 on the podcast

01:14:20.600 please let me know as well

01:14:21.740 and in the meantime

01:14:22.480 make sure you

01:14:23.440 band with us

01:14:24.620 over at The Men's Forge

01:14:26.180 we are going to be

01:14:27.580 holding that event

01:14:28.340 outside of St. Louis

01:14:29.380 on May 1st

01:14:30.540 through the 4th

01:14:31.240 and I want you there

01:14:33.620 that is not hyperbole

01:14:35.440 that is not just

01:14:36.500 something I say

01:14:37.360 in jest

01:14:38.280 I really would love

01:14:39.960 to have you there

01:14:40.560 I love connecting

01:14:41.260 with other men

01:14:41.960 holding each other

01:14:43.160 accountable

01:14:43.580 I get a lot of value

01:14:45.260 from this

01:14:45.660 and I hope you do as well

01:14:46.760 you can do that

01:14:47.740 at themensforge.com

01:14:49.520 alright guys

01:14:50.880 that's all I've got

01:14:51.720 we'll be back tomorrow

01:14:53.240 for our Ask Me Anything

01:14:54.500 until then

01:14:55.280 go out there

01:14:55.740 take action

01:14:56.400 and become the man

01:14:57.760 you are meant to be

01:14:59.060 thank you for listening

01:15:04.760 to the Order of Man podcast

01:15:06.280 if you're ready

01:15:07.200 to take charge of your life

01:15:08.480 and be more of the man

01:15:09.620 you were meant to be

01:15:10.520 we invite you to join the order

01:15:12.200 at orderofman.com

01:15:14.020 you

Order of Man - February 11, 2025

LEE & ANDREW CHILD ｜ The Making of a Masculine Icon

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