Order of Man - MARK DRISCOLL ｜ Act Like a Man

00:00:00.000 If you're paying attention, even in the slightest, you know there is a clear and deliberate agenda to undermine and devalue men and the role they play in society.

00:00:09.040 It's crucial that we as men remain vigilant in the knowledge of that and, more importantly, continue to show up powerfully for those we wish to lead and serve.

00:00:17.720 My guest today, Mark Driscoll, has been doing this for decades, specifically through his ministry of Christ.

00:00:22.980 Today we talk about whether or not men are the problem in society, the balance between fearless courage and loving kindness, why submitting to proper authority does not make us weaker men, the key archetypes of masculinity, Christian weakness in society today, and why curiosity will put you on a path to becoming a better man.

00:00:43.660 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.

00:00:52.980 Every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.

00:01:03.460 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:08.940 Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. My name is Ryan Mickler. I'm the host and the founder.

00:01:13.960 Guys, we've been going strong for over nine years now. I cannot believe how incredible this journey has been.

00:01:20.960 And it's a testament to not only the message of reclaiming and restoring masculinity, but it's the testament to the work that you are doing as men.

00:01:29.180 The fact that you want this information, you want to hear from powerful people, and you want to apply this stuff in your life.

00:01:34.820 And that's exactly what we do in this podcast. We bring incredible speakers, authors, athletes, warriors, scholars onto the podcast, extract some of their knowledge, extract some of their wisdom.

00:01:45.020 And then eventually, and ideally, we go out and we put that into practice. And my guest today is no different. His name is Mark Driscoll.

00:01:53.080 I'll get into that in just a minute. I do want to mention, I mentioned this last week, but we are officially open inside the Iron Council.

00:01:59.520 A lot of you guys have been asking me questions, and maybe some of you are on the fence.

00:02:03.380 What I would suggest to you, if you are on the fence, is just go ahead and join us. It's time to get off the fence.

00:02:08.600 You can always decide it's not for you, or decide you don't want to do it, but we're only open for a short period of time.

00:02:15.340 So if you've been thinking about it for any amount of time, or you're trying to find a way to band with other really good, powerful men, the Iron Council is a good place to do that.

00:02:24.640 One of the most common questions I get with regards to masculinity, manliness, and men reaching out is where to find other guys that they can connect with and band with.

00:02:35.700 It's just hard to do. And I think that's a big, big component and feature of the Iron Council.

00:02:41.540 It's no guesswork. These guys are all vested in improving themselves. They're vested in helping you improve and holding you accountable.

00:02:47.920 So I can't think of a better place than the Iron Council. You can check it out.

00:02:52.040 It's open for enrollment right now at orderofman.com slash Iron Council.

00:02:57.660 With that said, guys, let me get to my guest today. I do want to say as a, I don't want to say a disclaimer necessarily,

00:03:03.320 but I do want to make you aware that the first half roughly of this conversation is very spiritually and Christ-centered.

00:03:09.580 That may apply to some of you. It may not. But the only reason I bring it up is because regardless of what your thoughts on the subject are,

00:03:16.460 there's a lot of valuable information here if we're willing to look at it.

00:03:20.880 I have my own questions. You're going to hear that in the podcast. And I'm not skeptical necessarily, but I'm very curious.

00:03:26.980 So I'm trying to figure out some of these questions and answers myself. So I hope it comes across that way.

00:03:34.320 Either way, regardless, I hope you enjoy it. Mark Driscoll is a pastor, a spiritual leader, author.

00:03:39.620 He's a public speaker. He's also a family man. And for decades, his family and he have been teaching biblical principles to help men, women, and families lead better lives.

00:03:48.940 He has a master's degree in theology and is unwavering in his convictions.

00:03:54.840 He has some controversial viral moments relatively recently, but he never shies away from challenging and confronting situations and discussions.

00:04:05.100 He is the author of Win Your War, Real Marriage, and a few others, and also his newest book, Act Like a Man.

00:04:11.440 He's also the founder of his ministry, Real Faith. Gentlemen, enjoy this one.

00:04:17.760 Mark, good to see you. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

00:04:20.320 Yeah, honored to be here. Thanks for letting me jump in, buddy.

00:04:24.280 I've been a follower for some time now, but I think what really pushed it over the edge where I'm thinking to myself, you know, I've got to get this guy on, is you had a pretty viral event, for lack of a better term, with John Lindell.

00:04:39.760 When you're in it long enough. So I've been 30 years in the saddle.

00:04:43.400 And, you know, eventually, the feces and fan interface every so often, you know?

00:04:51.500 Yeah, I like that way. The feces and the fan. 0.98

00:04:54.360 The interface, yes.

00:04:56.320 Yes, that's a very literal way of putting it, but also I think everybody gets the point.

00:05:02.200 Yeah.

00:05:02.460 Tell me a little bit about that experience. I think you know what I'm talking about.

00:05:06.960 The most recent, I should say, viral event with Pastor John Lindell and the event, I think it was called, I wrote it down here, Men's Christian Conference.

00:05:15.040 You had a very public event. I'd love to hear more about that.

00:05:18.320 Yeah, I'm going to pivot out of that. I didn't know we were going to get into that.

00:05:21.240 So for me, I love pastors. I love churches. I love ministries. Life's got enough complexity.

00:05:29.240 And so for me, it was an odd day at the office, but I love everybody and have moved on and wish everybody well.

00:05:39.300 And sometimes, yeah, sometimes things make the rounds that you're kind of shaking your head going, well, that was an odd day.

00:05:45.700 So I've had a few of those in my life for sure, but I love everybody and there's people that I care very, very deeply about.

00:05:52.580 And sometimes when things happen, you know, people want a public comment.

00:05:57.400 I'd rather have private conversations and not drag things out or give aside or do anything that could seem like I'm being ungracious toward people that I care about.

00:06:10.040 I can respect that. You know, it's, and I don't think that's real common in today's age.

00:06:14.920 I think many people want to, quite frankly, do the opposite, create animosity and contention and drama, unnecessary drama to drum up likes or views or social media clout.

00:06:27.180 So, you know, I can certainly respect that. But I think the one thing that really stood out to me was the ability to stand for what you believe in.

00:06:34.360 And we can talk about it in that context or an entirely different context. I'll let you decide.

00:06:38.520 But when I see things like that, I'm really proud of a guy. Proud is probably not the right word. I don't know you.

00:06:46.360 But I'm inspired. That's probably a better word. I'm inspired by a man who's willing to stand by what he believes in.

00:06:53.920 Whether or not we agree or not, I think we agree on a lot of things.

00:06:56.580 But at least we've got some guys with some balls, willing to say what they believe in, willing to stand by their convictions.

00:07:05.180 Whether or not you agree is an entirely different subject.

00:07:08.060 Well, I think that, I mean, as we get into the issue of masculinity, I think more than ever, that's necessary.

00:07:13.480 And I think the world that we live in is clearly anti-heterosexual, male, courage, strength.

00:07:21.300 Anything that smells of masculinity is wrongly called toxic masculinity.

00:07:26.680 And so, yeah, what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to have convictions?

00:07:30.260 What does it mean to have courage?

00:07:32.080 And for me, I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever, I've never lacked courage.

00:07:37.160 I don't know why.

00:07:38.540 But there are times that I've lacked kindness or compassion.

00:07:41.560 So for me, it's always like, how do you have, like, fearless courage, but also it's not motivated by pride.

00:07:49.200 It's not motivated by bitterness.

00:07:51.200 It's not motivated by vengeance.

00:07:54.560 And there's a humility about it.

00:07:56.420 And I'll be honest with you, most guys struggle with one or the other.

00:07:59.500 You know, being humble, being gracious, being loving, being kind.

00:08:03.380 They struggle with that.

00:08:04.500 They're just, life is a face and every day you're looking for a place to put your fist.

00:08:08.680 Whereas other guys, they're kind and they're loving and they're gracious, but they just, like you said, they're kind of ball free.

00:08:15.160 They just, they don't have any courage or convictions.

00:08:17.260 And if they do, they don't have any voice.

00:08:19.220 And so, yeah, I've been, I'm a pastor.

00:08:22.040 I'm a Christian.

00:08:22.700 So I'll just come out of the closet early on in the interview.

00:08:24.660 I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

00:08:27.080 And so as I get older, it's like, how, how can I stand for my convictions with clarity in a negative world, but in a way that, that isn't just motivated by vengeance or anger or bitterness or pride.

00:08:39.700 Because at the end of the day, the older I get, I feel more like a dad, you know, and when you're a brother, I think you can have a certain attitude when you're trying to be a dad.

00:08:48.560 You're like, I'm also not trying to just win an argument, but set an example that hopefully my sons would do better than me.

00:08:55.280 That's a really good way to look at it.

00:08:57.700 I often feel myself as I'm, you know, aging.

00:09:01.920 I'm not old by any means, but I'm 43 years old and I'm getting older and I've got boys.

00:09:06.740 We talked a little bit about that offline.

00:09:08.300 And yeah, I feel like I'm trying to be the dad that I wish I would have had when I was a young boy.

00:09:15.920 Yeah, I'm 53.

00:09:18.460 So I'm just, I'm a decade ahead of you.

00:09:20.020 Exactly.

00:09:20.420 I've got three boys, two girls, and now I've got two grandsons and a granddaughter on the way and another grandkid on the way.

00:09:28.880 So we're, we're at the older three.

00:09:31.320 Yeah, it's, it's a really great season.

00:09:33.600 And when you're young, I think you wake up and you're just trying to figure yourself out.

00:09:38.320 Then you get married and you're like, okay, I got to take care of her and I love her.

00:09:41.740 Then you add kids.

00:09:42.900 And then once you get into the grandfather phase, I don't know, all of a sudden it's, it's less about trying to win or succeed.

00:09:50.320 And it's more about how to coach and help.

00:09:52.740 And my hope, prayer and goal for my sons is that, you know, I would be their floor, not their ceiling.

00:09:57.340 And then my hope is for my grandsons, that their dads would be, you know, their floor and not their ceiling.

00:10:03.760 And the hope, prayer and goal as a man is, you know, every generation gets a little better.

00:10:08.760 And, and hopefully that continues on and on and on.

00:10:12.100 Because quite frankly, in the culture, it's just getting worse and worse and worse.

00:10:15.400 And so men have got to have a plan to go against that cultural tide.

00:10:20.820 Yeah, I heard, I know you're Christian, not necessarily Catholic.

00:10:24.820 And I, and I heard the, the, the Pope just several weeks ago say something about how men, and I'm paraphrasing here.

00:10:34.240 It's, it's been a couple of weeks, but men are inherently good.

00:10:37.320 And I thought to myself, is that biblical?

00:10:39.340 You would know more than I do.

00:10:40.480 Are men inherently good, or are they inherently bad, and they're actively working against what the LDS doctrine would call the natural man?

00:10:49.040 And we can talk more about that.

00:10:50.780 What are your thoughts on whether man is inherently good or inherently evil?

00:10:56.640 Well, I mean, I'm a Bible-believing Christian.

00:10:58.760 I've been teaching primarily through books of the Bible for about, you know, three decades.

00:11:02.580 And so the Bible says that we were made very good.

00:11:06.260 And then through sin, rebellion, rejection of God, living independent of God, motivated largely by pride, we have, we've fallen into sin.

00:11:16.220 And so this whole issue of sin, a lot of people don't like to talk about it, it actually explains everything.

00:11:20.700 You're like, why is the world so broken?

00:11:23.040 Well, because it's broken.

00:11:24.700 Why is it no matter who we elect, it seems like the system is just rigged.

00:11:28.480 Well, it's because it's rigged.

00:11:30.040 It is.

00:11:30.380 Why is it that it doesn't matter how many dollars we spend or how many wars we wage, it just seems like humanity is just bent on self-destruction, because it is.

00:11:40.180 And so really, the hope is not us.

00:11:44.840 The hope is outside of us, and that is that someone would come for us.

00:11:49.360 And so I like to think of it like every guy who watches, you know, action movies or superhero movies, the story is always, it's going to end, there is no hope, somebody comes from the outside, and they rescue us, and they save the world.

00:12:03.080 The longing for that story is really fulfilled in Jesus Christ, that God comes into to rescue and to save.

00:12:10.040 And the point is this, like, we're not going to save ourselves, and if we were inherently good, and if evolution was true, and progressivism was right, and that we're good and getting better, then the world would look very different.

00:12:22.480 I don't know about you, to me, as a heterosexual man, a husband, a father, looking at the world and culture, it looks way worse than when I grew up, and it shows no signs of getting better.

00:12:32.740 It's because we are sinful, the world is cursed, flawed, and broken, and if we are the problem, that means we can't be the solution, and so God comes.

00:12:42.520 Well, what's interesting is God comes as a man.

00:12:44.360 He could have came as anyone or anything, and he came as a man.

00:12:47.860 That's the whole story of Jesus.

00:12:50.080 And so that must mean that if we're going to make changes, it starts with the men, and it starts with the men becoming like Jesus, and then the problems start to get solved.

00:12:59.140 All the problems, the political, economic, social, cultural, moral, marital, familial problems all start with God, and then God getting a man, and then that man straightening out all of his responsibilities and his realm of authority.

00:13:16.700 So we'll get biblical, and we'll go to that realm for a minute.

00:13:20.660 Is God a man?

00:13:22.720 You said he came as a man, which almost makes it sound as if he's not necessarily, but he chose to present himself as a man.

00:13:30.980 So help me understand that.

00:13:32.600 Yeah, it's a great question.

00:13:33.680 So God is spirit, and so spirit isn't engendered with a physical body.

00:13:38.940 For us, human beings, there's sex, which is your biological conditioning, your gender. 0.91

00:13:46.320 So you're made as a man.

00:13:47.440 You're supposed to be masculine. 0.73

00:13:49.220 So God is spirit.

00:13:50.200 He doesn't have a body.

00:13:51.700 Therefore, God isn't engendered. 0.97

00:13:53.660 It's not like God has male or female genitalia.

00:13:55.980 God is a spirit, like an angel would be a spirit being.

00:13:59.280 Now, when God decided to enter a human being.

00:14:00.900 How do you reconcile that?

00:14:01.440 Just to interject real quick, how do you reconcile that with, and you're more of a biblical scholar than I am, so I'm well aware of that.

00:14:10.280 Sure, sure.

00:14:10.900 With a scripture, and you're going to know what I'm talking about here, where it says he was made in God's image, both male and female, or both man and woman.

00:14:19.820 How do you reconcile what you're saying with that if we are made in his image?

00:14:24.860 Yeah, and so when it talks of the image of God, and it's saying that, first of all, we're giving a unique position, human beings are, because like animals and plants, they don't have the image of God.

00:14:36.420 So that means that, you know, according to the storyline of the Bible, we have authority over animals, we have authority over plants, which is why like radical environmental activism or radical animal rights activism, it disorients God's created order.

00:14:51.680 When it says that God made us in his image, it literally there is to reflect or to mirror.

00:14:57.960 And that means that we are to mirror or reflect God's character.

00:15:02.060 So God is loving, we love.

00:15:03.560 God forgives, so we forgive.

00:15:06.360 God is generous, so we're supposed to be generous.

00:15:08.560 God is truthful, so we're supposed to be truthful.

00:15:12.060 And so what that means is made in his image and likeness, we're made for a relationship with him as moral beings that make decisions.

00:15:19.220 And the result is our character and how we conduct ourselves is supposed to reflect his character.

00:15:25.420 So what you're saying is not necessarily man or woman.

00:15:29.760 You're saying man and woman with these combined attributes, virtues, characteristics, so that we can relate with a being like God is what you're saying.

00:15:38.840 If I'm understanding you correctly.

00:15:40.720 Yeah, because you think about it.

00:15:41.820 Let's say, so when we die, so the Bible says we die and our body goes into the ground and our soul goes to be with the Lord.

00:15:49.600 There were two parts, physical and spiritual.

00:15:51.260 And that one day when Jesus returns, according to the storyline of the Bible, just like he rose from the dead, we rise from the dead and our body and soul come back together.

00:15:59.080 But that means, you know, until Jesus returns, people are living as, you know, beings with sentient consciousness and decision making, but they don't have a body.

00:16:10.980 They're not living in a physical body.

00:16:13.460 So they don't have like the genitalia, the biological hardwiring of a male or a female. 0.96

00:16:18.400 And so, you know, what we're talking about there is relating to God at the level of the immaterial soul.

00:16:23.120 And so, yeah, but God does come as a man.

00:16:26.680 I mean, he could have came, could have came as whomever or whatever he wanted, but God did come as a man.

00:16:31.680 That was the choice that he made.

00:16:33.940 Do you feel like there's, this is, this is taking a completely different direction.

00:16:39.200 I've got a lot of things I want to talk with you about.

00:16:42.320 Do you feel like there's spirits?

00:16:48.000 Maybe this is more of a LDS doctrine.

00:16:50.340 So if there's some discrepancy here, let's, let's address it.

00:16:54.480 But this is what I grew up knowing.

00:16:56.620 So do you believe spirits are, are conjoined with a body for lack of better term as a feminine or masculine spirit?

00:17:06.840 And therefore they are a man or, and therefore they are a woman or what is, what is that action?

00:17:11.960 How does that play out?

00:17:14.440 Yeah, I would disagree on that point.

00:17:16.800 And, and I'm not, I'm not LDS.

00:17:19.080 And so the storyline of the Bible is that there are human beings that have a physical body.

00:17:24.140 And then there are divine beings that do not have a physical body.

00:17:27.620 And that as a result, um, we can procreate because we have physical body.

00:17:32.360 And the Bible says that angels, well, Jesus says that angels don't procreate as human beings.

00:17:37.800 It means that we have physical limitations.

00:17:39.200 Like we get the flu, we get old.

00:17:40.940 I was wrestling with my grandsons on Saturday.

00:17:43.300 I pulled my hip and kind of hobbling along.

00:17:45.980 You know, uh, if I was an angel or a demon, a spirit being, I, I, I wouldn't get dehydrated

00:17:52.240 here in the desert.

00:17:53.080 I wouldn't need a nap and I wouldn't have had to go to the chiropractor today.

00:17:57.360 Um, and I probably should go again before the day's over.

00:18:00.240 And so what that means is that, um, that there are, there are divine beings in their human beings

00:18:06.140 and the, the human beings have a body and a soul.

00:18:09.140 The divine beings, they're just spiritual.

00:18:10.860 So we could say maybe they have an immaterial soul, but they don't have a physical body.

00:18:14.780 They could appear like that.

00:18:16.340 That's where the Bible says in Hebrews that sometimes you've met an angel and you didn't

00:18:20.080 even know it because they appeared in a certain way.

00:18:22.920 But yeah, I'm not LDS and my view of Jesus would be very different.

00:18:27.280 And I would reject any of the books that they would add in addition to the 66 books of the

00:18:33.080 Bible.

00:18:33.400 So, so there would be some things that we would agree on, uh, but there would be a large number

00:18:38.040 of things around the character of God that we would disagree about.

00:18:41.720 And by the way, I'm not suggesting that's LDS doctrine by any means.

00:18:45.880 I, these are just questions.

00:18:47.220 That's when you were talking growing up.

00:18:48.780 Yeah.

00:18:49.420 Right.

00:18:49.980 Not even taught, just personal questions.

00:18:52.340 I'm, I'm very inquisitive and curious about the nature of, of spirituality.

00:18:57.020 And then I also wonder, okay, so if I'm a man, clearly, obviously I'm a man, uh, when

00:19:03.060 I die, I mean, yeah, I would hope public education.

00:19:06.480 I agree with you, uh, without having me having to drop my pants or anything, you can probably

00:19:12.040 tell.

00:19:12.380 And that's kind of pretty obvious.

00:19:14.440 I'll be honest.

00:19:15.360 The Adams apple is sufficient.

00:19:17.000 We don't need any backup evidence.

00:19:18.620 I appreciate that.

00:19:19.680 Fair enough.

00:19:20.800 Although I did have one guest, uh, invite himself to expose himself, I guess, so to speak on a

00:19:28.940 podcast.

00:19:29.240 And we won't necessarily get into that, but that was a weird one.

00:19:31.860 Uh, and, and obviously I don't think that's the direction this one's going to go today.

00:19:36.820 No, I promise you it's not going there.

00:19:38.540 Yeah.

00:19:39.660 When, uh, when we die, what, what becomes of us?

00:19:47.420 I'm not going to, I'm not even going to lead that question at all.

00:19:50.820 What becomes of us?

00:19:51.960 I'll just leave it there.

00:19:53.840 Okay.

00:19:54.240 Well, I appreciate it.

00:19:55.340 And I'll be honest with you.

00:19:56.520 Um, I wasn't thinking the conversation was going to go this way, but I'm totally happy

00:20:01.260 to have this conversation because I've been studying the Bible, teaching pretty much book

00:20:05.620 by book for more than 30 years.

00:20:08.060 So I'm like the nerd that never gets to be on jeopardy.

00:20:11.340 So I have all of this data that is completely useless.

00:20:14.300 So thank you.

00:20:15.380 I get to pull out some old files.

00:20:16.840 So, um, what happens to us when we die, the Bible says to be absent from the body and

00:20:22.540 to be present with the Lord is far better.

00:20:25.640 So what that means is that the physical part of us goes into the ground.

00:20:29.720 The spiritual part goes into the presence of God until again, according to the storyline

00:20:35.720 of the Bible, one day Jesus returns and then we get our body and soul back together perfectly.

00:20:41.580 So according to the storyline of the Bible, Genesis one and two, God made the heavens and

00:20:47.240 the earth.

00:20:47.780 God made the animals and the plants and the sea and the environment.

00:20:50.760 And then God had made us male and female with gender in a body.

00:20:54.780 And God said that it was all good and very good.

00:20:57.420 According to the storyline of the Bible, Genesis three, we sin and that just wrecks everything.

00:21:03.040 It, it, it infects and affects everyone and everything.

00:21:06.640 When all is said and done, God is going to return to Genesis one and two, his original plan

00:21:13.200 because his plan was great.

00:21:14.980 We just, we opposed his plan.

00:21:17.220 So what will heaven look like?

00:21:19.980 Well, heaven will look like Genesis one and two when all is said and done.

00:21:24.860 So I'm a believer in Jesus Christ.

00:21:27.700 According to the storyline of the Bible that I believe I will raise from the dead.

00:21:31.880 I'll have a body and a soul and I will get to do the things that God made me to do.

00:21:36.720 I'll get to have adventure.

00:21:38.560 I'll get to explore.

00:21:39.800 I'll get to create a, we'll have civilization.

00:21:43.480 We'll have travel.

00:21:45.200 Imagine this world with no evil.

00:21:47.860 Imagine this world with no death.

00:21:49.920 Imagine this world with no lies.

00:21:51.920 Imagine this world with no sickness and everyone and everything was healed.

00:21:56.800 And now human potential was unlimited to do whatever it is that God made us to do.

00:22:02.660 I believe that's where we're going forever and ever and ever.

00:22:05.400 So I think that view of like, will you die and you become like an angel and you get fat

00:22:11.520 like a baby and you wear a diaper and you've got a harp that you plonk and you sit on a cloud

00:22:16.300 and your wings are too small to take you anywhere far.

00:22:19.080 To me, that's not the storyline of the Bible.

00:22:21.660 So for me, like I can't wait to have forever to travel.

00:22:25.980 I can't wait to have forever to build a company.

00:22:28.720 I can't wait to have forever to hang out with my friends and family.

00:22:33.500 And so, you know, deep down, there's something in all of us that just wishes that we could

00:22:39.100 get all of the sin and curse and fall and lies and drama and brokenness out of the way

00:22:45.860 and just enjoy our life.

00:22:48.000 And the answer is, well, God's going to need to make that world a reality because we can't

00:22:51.980 make it ourselves.

00:22:53.400 What do you say to the guys?

00:22:55.060 I'm not skeptical.

00:22:55.980 Well, that's not true.

00:22:58.100 I am skeptical of that.

00:23:00.080 I'm a believer.

00:23:01.160 So I want to clear that up right now.

00:23:02.760 Yeah, I'm, I'm a believer in Christ and I'm a believer in redemption and repentance.

00:23:07.740 I'm a believer in that, but also I'm skeptical.

00:23:10.560 You know, I, I, I, I, I'm curious.

00:23:13.760 I, uh, am skeptical.

00:23:16.080 I think by nature, I, I, a lot of times show me, show me before I make decisions and that

00:23:22.320 might be pride or something else.

00:23:23.840 But what do you say to guys like me, or maybe even people who are further down that path

00:23:30.220 of skepticism is how, man, I don't even know what I'm asking necessarily is, is it necessary

00:23:39.220 for the, the, the path of masculinity and manliness?

00:23:42.420 Is it something that, that we have to adhere to or something that we will be, it will be

00:23:49.280 revealed to us later.

00:23:50.260 Do you know what I'm saying?

00:23:51.080 I'm having a hard time articulating what I'm asking.

00:23:53.080 Yeah, no, no.

00:23:53.600 I think, I think as a man, two things that every man really needs, he needs to be under

00:23:57.580 authority and have, um, have a goal and a hope.

00:24:02.800 I think you need those three things.

00:24:03.920 If you're not under authority, you're a dangerous man.

00:24:07.000 Uh, we call those, you know, terrorists.

00:24:09.300 Um, if you don't have a goal, like what am I doing all this for?

00:24:13.820 It's hard to, it's hard to find your North on the compass and know where to point everything.

00:24:18.520 And if you don't have a hope, meaning, okay, so if I, if I go, if I live under this authority

00:24:23.400 and I go this direction, you know, is it going to work out or is it just a waste of time

00:24:28.380 and effort?

00:24:28.820 And so for me, like I live under the authority of Jesus Christ and the scriptures, my goal

00:24:35.480 is that God is my father and I'm his son.

00:24:38.460 So I want to do everything I can to, to, to show forth the character of my God and father

00:24:45.240 and to live in a way that pleases him and that I would be a decent son.

00:24:50.580 And then my hope is, um, he will bless my life and I'm not fighting against him.

00:24:56.640 Um, my hope is also then when my life is over, he'll reward me for all the stuff I was trying

00:25:01.820 to do that was right.

00:25:03.200 And so for me as a man that, that puts some guardrails on my life, um, because again, any

00:25:08.840 man that doesn't have authority, dangerous man, any man that doesn't have a purpose or

00:25:13.080 a goal, he's just sort of wandering aimlessly.

00:25:15.620 And any man that doesn't have a hope, those are the guys that get really depressed and

00:25:19.500 even suicidal.

00:25:20.300 They're like, if there's no result, if there's no outcome, then why invest your whole life

00:25:25.360 in it?

00:25:26.020 And, and I think you're, I think where you're at, I don't think it's necessarily bad.

00:25:29.500 I think there's a big difference between unbelief and, um, and a curiosity or questions, you

00:25:36.840 know, like, so it's like, because part of it is like, what we're talking about is like,

00:25:40.660 well, what is God like?

00:25:41.640 Well, we're never going to know that fully.

00:25:43.780 So we're always going to have some questions.

00:25:45.680 Um, what is it like to live in a world that isn't broken and flawed?

00:25:49.640 I have no idea.

00:25:50.720 I mean, I've never seen that.

00:25:52.540 I, I would, I hope to, but I've never seen that.

00:25:55.600 And so I think for men, there's a big difference between outright rejection and then curiosity

00:26:02.100 that says, I don't really understand.

00:26:04.440 And I think as we chase that curiosity, that's where we start to come to a point where we get

00:26:10.300 some more answers and some more solidity.

00:26:13.500 It's kind of, so faith is kind of like being married.

00:26:15.740 Like I've been with my wife since March 12th, 1988, we got married a few years later.

00:26:21.520 When I first met her, it was like, I think she's great.

00:26:24.460 And I think I can trust her.

00:26:26.420 And I think the future is going to be good.

00:26:28.740 But the more I, I get to know her and the more time I spend with her and the more life

00:26:35.040 I do with her, the more I realize that's exactly true.

00:26:39.640 And so for a lot of guys in their relationship with God, it's like someone that they've read

00:26:43.200 about, but not somebody that they've met.

00:26:44.800 So they, so they've got questions like, is he really good?

00:26:48.300 Does he really exist?

00:26:49.400 Like, is he, is he really involved?

00:26:51.320 Yeah.

00:26:51.540 Yeah.

00:26:51.700 Just, just keep working on that relationship.

00:26:54.040 And over time you'll, you'll get to know him just like the rest of us have.

00:26:58.200 Yeah.

00:26:58.580 I mean, I'm glad you said that because I'm definitely not an atheist.

00:27:01.180 I'm, I'm certainly not agnostic.

00:27:03.020 You know, I, I, I'm not neutral.

00:27:04.940 I'm not an unbeliever as, as the word you used.

00:27:08.520 Uh, I am just curious.

00:27:10.160 I, I, I, I want to believe, I, I want this to be accurate and true.

00:27:14.300 And, uh, but you know, as you talk about the three issues and I wrote them down here,

00:27:18.280 you said authority, goal, and hope.

00:27:20.720 I, I can't help, but think there's gotta be something else because if you take, for example,

00:27:25.780 let's say, um, uh, a terrorist who is fighting for his spiritual beliefs, you know, he's, he's

00:27:32.120 got authority.

00:27:32.840 He believes he's under the power of, of Allah.

00:27:35.000 Let's say, for example, he's got a goal, right? 0.99

00:27:37.640 Which is to murder as many infidels as possible. 1.00

00:27:41.840 Uh, and then he's got a hope and he's, he'll be rewarded 72 virgins or whatever the story 0.98

00:27:46.600 is in heaven.

00:27:47.660 So he's, he's got all three of those, but I think we would objectively suggest that that

00:27:55.380 is pure evil.

00:27:56.560 So what is the missing component?

00:28:00.160 You've got to get the right authority.

00:28:03.300 You've got to have the right goal and you've got to be living with the right hope.

00:28:08.200 But who says what is right?

00:28:10.360 Jesus Christ, the word of God, the scriptures.

00:28:13.820 I mean, I, I'm Christian, man.

00:28:15.140 Like we're in a day it's pride month. 0.98

00:28:17.400 I'm, I'm proud of Jesus.

00:28:18.540 I'm not proud of anybody or anything else, but I'm proud of Jesus.

00:28:21.980 Um, and so for me, um, as a, as a Bible believing Christian, you know, some people, for example,

00:28:29.380 let's say that their authority is their political party and their, you know, their goal is to

00:28:35.220 win an election and their hope is if my candidate wins, it's all going to get better.

00:28:40.060 Well, you get, you're climbing the ladder that's on the wrong wall, right?

00:28:44.440 Uh, you know, and so it's not just having authority, goal, and a hope it's having the right

00:28:49.540 authority, the right goal, and the right hope.

00:28:51.980 And that's where, you know, for certain people, like I tend to think in eternal scope, like

00:28:56.840 when I die is what I'm committed to and is what I'm believing in going to work because

00:29:04.600 it might even succeed for life.

00:29:06.680 But if I die and go to hell, it's like, well, forever and ever and ever is a very long time.

00:29:12.080 And so to me, I want to live for eternity and I want to reverse engineer my life so that

00:29:18.120 it doesn't work just now, but it works forever and ever and ever.

00:29:21.260 And that, and that frankly is what led me to Jesus.

00:29:24.020 Jesus is the only guy that died and came back.

00:29:26.100 So he must know what's on the other side.

00:29:29.240 Do you, I know I might be sounding like I'm questioning.

00:29:35.700 I'm not being antagonistic.

00:29:38.020 I'm being curious.

00:29:39.220 I'll be honest with you.

00:29:40.820 I think that this conversation is very important and I'm very honored to have it.

00:29:48.080 And I think that you being honest is a really helpful example to other men who are trying

00:29:54.160 to figure out what they believe.

00:29:55.460 And so I want to say that I appreciate being involved in it and I honor it.

00:30:00.260 Every man starts like, okay, here are my questions. 0.51

00:30:02.920 I'm trying to figure this out.

00:30:04.480 And with the size of following that you have and the number of men that follow you, for

00:30:09.400 you to demonstrate some humility and curiosity, I just want to encourage that.

00:30:14.440 It doesn't happen a lot.

00:30:15.900 Most guys show up and they're like, I know everything.

00:30:17.500 You're like, I'm trying to figure some things out.

00:30:19.880 I don't know anything.

00:30:20.900 That's honestly the best place to be.

00:30:22.560 Yeah.

00:30:22.880 I don't know anything.

00:30:24.340 I, I, I tell guys I've done, I looked at it today. 0.94

00:30:28.960 I've done over 1200 podcasts at this point and I don't know a damn thing.

00:30:34.700 And, and, and to have guys like you and other people that I've had on, I'm like, this is,

00:30:39.800 this is for me.

00:30:40.620 I just ask the questions I want to ask.

00:30:42.500 And if other people relate with it, great.

00:30:44.340 These are the questions I want to ask.

00:30:46.460 So my, my question is, and I, I've always believed this and I don't know if it's

00:30:52.880 true or not, do our, our men.

00:30:56.020 And when I say men, I'm saying mankind, but does humanity, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:59.960 Humanity.

00:31:00.560 Sure.

00:31:01.760 Does humanity have a conscience?

00:31:06.060 Meaning are we blessed with the, uh, the spirit of God to discern right from wrong is

00:31:14.680 how I might label that again, from my perspective, how I might label that.

00:31:19.260 And if that's the case, cause you were talking about, well, you just have to know

00:31:22.860 know that this is going to be right.

00:31:24.120 I believe to go to my previous point.

00:31:26.080 A lot of these, uh, extreme, you know, spiritual terrorists actually believe what they're doing

00:31:32.940 is right.

00:31:34.160 Totally.

00:31:35.480 Yeah.

00:31:35.920 I mean, you can be fully committed to the wrong cause.

00:31:39.200 You can be fully deceived.

00:31:40.800 And a lot of people are.

00:31:42.000 Um, and at the end of the day, it's not just trusting, but making sure that the source is

00:31:48.200 trustworthy.

00:31:48.840 So for example, like, you know, as a man, you're like, okay, I need to listen to somebody.

00:31:54.460 So who am I going to listen to?

00:31:55.980 So for me, I picked Jesus Christ.

00:31:58.260 I can't find anybody more influential in the history of the world.

00:32:01.680 I can't find anybody more humble.

00:32:03.760 I can't find anybody more truthful or courageous.

00:32:08.080 And in addition, I can't find anybody else who said they were God.

00:32:11.900 Jesus is the only founder of any major world religion who said he was God, which is a big 0.92

00:32:15.420 deal. 0.97

00:32:16.120 And then he said, you're going to kill me. 0.99

00:32:17.700 And I'm going to come back. 0.99

00:32:18.420 Hold on.

00:32:18.720 You said that as a, uh, as just kind of a, just a throwaway.

00:32:22.980 Say that one more time.

00:32:24.140 Jesus Christ.

00:32:25.140 Say that one more time.

00:32:25.900 He's the only founder of any major world religion who says he's God.

00:32:30.500 Is that, that's true.

00:32:32.200 You're that, there's no other religion that says that.

00:32:35.320 That's a fact.

00:32:36.600 Interesting.

00:32:37.280 So you look at every religious leader in the history of the world.

00:32:40.460 One guy of any major influence says, I'm God.

00:32:44.620 I'd be like, well, then I'm going with that guy, you know, because he says he's in a category

00:32:49.460 completely other than the other guys. 0.95

00:32:51.860 So the other guys will say, well, that guy's crazy.

00:32:55.100 So, you know what?

00:32:56.100 Honestly, if somebody thinks that Jesus is crazy, I have more respect for them than somebody

00:33:01.800 who says that he was just a teacher or a nice guy, because at least they're being honest

00:33:05.960 about what he said.

00:33:06.880 And that's that he's God.

00:33:09.940 So to me, this is the decision I came to like either Jesus is like nuttier than a Snickers

00:33:15.640 bar walking around saying he's God came down from heaven and that he's going to raise from

00:33:21.880 the dead.

00:33:22.480 I mean, that's crazy stuff unless you do it.

00:33:24.840 And if you do it, well, then you're God.

00:33:27.360 And if you don't do it, nobody should be celebrating your birthday every December because you're 1.00

00:33:33.300 a lunatic. 0.99

00:33:35.500 Yeah, that's a good either. 1.00

00:33:36.840 He is or he's not.

00:33:38.700 Pick a side.

00:33:40.520 That's where I'm at.

00:33:41.400 And to me, other people will try and change him like, well, he was a moral teacher or spiritual

00:33:45.380 guy.

00:33:45.600 No, he said he was God.

00:33:46.660 And the whole reason they killed him, the political and the religious leaders got together

00:33:51.180 and they killed him because he said he was God.

00:33:53.160 By saying he was God, he was a threat to all the religious leaders.

00:33:56.680 By saying he was God, he was a threat to all the political leaders because he was saying

00:34:00.320 that his authority was above theirs. 1.00

00:34:01.980 So they're like, we got to kill this guy. 1.00

00:34:03.980 And then he comes back from the dead. 0.98

00:34:05.920 And it's like, oh, my gosh, this guy's exactly who he said he was.

00:34:09.680 He said he was God.

00:34:11.000 And, you know, ultimately, God can conquer death.

00:34:14.660 God cannot be stopped.

00:34:17.340 That's what he proves.

00:34:20.180 Guys, I'm going to step away from the conversation just momentarily.

00:34:23.580 If I were to ask you who your band of brothers are, could you name 10 or five or even one?

00:34:30.660 Men going at it alone is a problem. 0.81

00:34:33.120 It leads to anxiety, depression, and even suicide when not addressed.

00:34:37.060 And isolation can quite literally kill a man, but even more common can drastically hamper

00:34:42.780 and reduce his results in every aspect of his life.

00:34:46.520 There's reasons for that.

00:34:47.980 For the sake of time, I won't get into all those specifics.

00:34:49.920 But this is why I started the Iron Council, to connect good men wanting to do powerful things

00:34:55.220 with other men of the same caliber.

00:34:56.700 And more than just talking about the issues and engaging in the activities that we all do,

00:35:01.640 the Iron Council is built on a framework of a proven system to produce predictable results.

00:35:09.200 And isn't that exactly what you want?

00:35:11.140 Results.

00:35:12.080 In your marriage, with your kids, in your business, with your body, your bank account.

00:35:16.340 Now, look, guys, we're only open for two weeks.

00:35:18.100 So band with us now.

00:35:19.880 Tap into this powerful resource of over 1,000 men who are all succeeding at different levels

00:35:24.180 at life and in different areas and are going to help you do the same.

00:35:27.800 You can do that at orderaman.com slash ironcouncil through the end of the month.

00:35:32.160 Again, that's orderaman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:35:35.240 Hope to see you inside.

00:35:38.060 Yeah, this is interesting because I've, at a minimum, you know, we look in the Bible and

00:35:43.700 it's, you know, you said something about, what was it?

00:35:46.040 The 66 books?

00:35:47.440 Is that what you said?

00:35:48.080 66?

00:35:48.720 Yeah, 66 books in the scriptures.

00:35:50.780 Yeah.

00:35:51.060 So that's canon, right?

00:35:52.920 That's been selected.

00:35:54.180 It's been selected by humans.

00:35:56.880 There's other, I assume, accounts of history in Christ and that's what's been selected.

00:36:04.800 Am I incorrect in saying that?

00:36:07.880 Well, that's like saying that John Newton created gravity.

00:36:11.760 He found it.

00:36:12.880 It existed.

00:36:14.200 And so, you know, so to me, like, so by the time Jesus came along, what we have is the

00:36:19.620 39 books of the Old Testament.

00:36:21.720 That was just settled.

00:36:22.780 The Jews all agreed, those are our books.

00:36:25.780 And there was really no debate about that.

00:36:28.280 That was just kind of settled.

00:36:29.940 And part of it is, as you read the books, they'll claim to be from God.

00:36:35.080 And what's interesting, too, about the Bible, especially the Old Testament, it has prophecy.

00:36:39.940 So about 25% of the Bible, when it was written, it was prophecy telling us something that was

00:36:44.920 going to happen in the future.

00:36:46.280 And to me, that's a really interesting indication that God was involved.

00:36:50.780 I mean, you and I right now, like, we'd love to know the future because we'd make some bets

00:36:57.180 and some decisions that would really help us, you know?

00:36:59.740 But we don't know the future.

00:37:01.000 Nobody knows the future.

00:37:01.960 Well, what the Bible does 25% of the time, especially the Old Testament, it predicts things

00:37:07.120 that happen in history, which is, to me, when I was not a Christian and I was starting to

00:37:11.920 study the Bible, I was like, this is wild.

00:37:13.780 I've never read a book that predicted history in advance.

00:37:17.140 Like, that's wild.

00:37:18.000 So it says, like, that Jesus would be born in a little town called Bethlehem, that he

00:37:25.260 would be born of a virgin mother in Isaiah.

00:37:28.660 It says that he would do miracles and heal people and create sight to the blind.

00:37:35.000 Okay, and then he did that.

00:37:36.440 And then it says that he would come to his temple.

00:37:40.940 Well, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

00:37:43.680 So that means whoever they were telling us was coming had to come 2,000 years ago because

00:37:49.020 there hasn't been a temple since it was destroyed in 70 AD.

00:37:51.580 And then it tells us that it'll be betrayed by a friend for 30 pieces of silver in Zechariah.

00:37:56.740 And you're like, well, that's a very specific number.

00:37:59.080 And that's exactly what happened.

00:38:00.220 And it says that he would be buried with a rich in his death in Isaiah.

00:38:04.360 And he was a poor guy.

00:38:05.640 So how do you get the poor guy, a rich man's tomb?

00:38:07.760 It was a gift after he died.

00:38:09.220 So he couldn't even sequence this.

00:38:10.800 And then it says, after the suffering of his soul, he'll see the light of life and be

00:38:15.580 satisfied in Isaiah, meaning he's going to raise from the dead.

00:38:18.480 And it says in Psalms that he would be pierced through his hands and his feet.

00:38:23.280 And that was written 1,000 years before Jesus walked on the earth.

00:38:27.540 And that was hundreds of years before the Persians even invented crucifixion.

00:38:32.760 So you're just like, okay, either God wrote this book,

00:38:35.560 or this is the most amazing series of historical coincidences of all time.

00:38:41.320 And so to me, the Bible is self-authenticating because what it says happened either in history

00:38:48.300 or was fulfilled in prophecy.

00:38:50.380 So then you get to the days of Jesus.

00:38:52.200 And the question is, were there eyewitnesses?

00:38:54.460 Were they actually there?

00:38:56.400 And so what you do get, you get some books of the, they're not books of the Bible,

00:39:01.180 but they're books that claim to be the Bible.

00:39:02.560 There's a short list of them.

00:39:03.660 And they were written hundreds of years after Jesus lived by people who were not eyewitnesses,

00:39:09.800 but they were pretending to be for the purpose of sales.

00:39:13.340 So like the gospel of Thomas, it was written hundreds of years after Jesus' disciple Thomas

00:39:19.380 by somebody who was faking.

00:39:21.200 It'd be like today, if you and I came out with albums and I was Tupac and you were Biggie,

00:39:26.540 you know, it's like, we're not, but nobody's going to buy our albums, you know?

00:39:30.540 Um, so what we're doing is we're pretending to find the lost album.

00:39:35.000 And so all of this is just fakery and forgery and it's people that don't have character because

00:39:40.880 they're lying.

00:39:43.780 I mean, that's interesting.

00:39:45.520 These, these are always been thoughts of mine of, of, of which books were selected versus

00:39:50.880 which ones were not selected.

00:39:52.620 And I I'm assuming that that's all a direct reflection of Catholicism, right?

00:39:59.140 I mean, isn't that who chooses what's in the Bible?

00:40:01.800 No, because like the old Testament was chosen 400.

00:40:05.420 So the old Testament was closed, closed canon.

00:40:08.000 Canon means measuring rod.

00:40:09.160 So the Jews all agreed that the current old Testament that we have, they agreed on that

00:40:14.220 400 years before Jesus was born.

00:40:16.800 Well, then Jesus is born, lives, dies, rises.

00:40:19.680 And then the Roman emperor, uh, determines eventually to make Christianity the legal religion 0.84

00:40:25.180 of the Roman empire.

00:40:26.080 And then eventually, you know, the, the, the church and the government come together and

00:40:30.600 you get Catholicism.

00:40:31.360 But the old Testament, it was all settled, you know, five, 600 years before there was

00:40:38.540 even such a thing as a Catholic church.

00:40:41.900 I love, I'm, I'm fascinated.

00:40:43.920 I'm, I'm just, like I said, I'm just fascinated with this stuff.

00:40:46.220 I'm curious about this.

00:40:47.180 And, you know, now that we've turned off, I don't know, half of our listeners by talking

00:40:51.460 about these things.

00:40:53.160 And, and I will say this as a disclaimer, the guys who listen to this podcast and I try to

00:40:57.960 be as objective as possible are trying to gather information.

00:41:03.440 Now it's up to them to determine, is this accurate?

00:41:06.120 Is this true?

00:41:06.760 Is this something I should explore further?

00:41:09.320 Uh, but now that we've probably turned off half of our audience with this conversation,

00:41:13.220 I want to turn the conversation to, to the book.

00:41:17.780 And now in full disclosure, I have not yet read the book.

00:41:20.760 Um, I'm very familiar with your work.

00:41:22.740 I'm very, very familiar with the outline and everything that goes into the book.

00:41:26.220 One thing that I'm very, very excited about, um, act like a man is I would say from the

00:41:33.520 outside, looking in the archetypes that you've identified that a man needs to step into, but,

00:41:39.660 but how would you identify that?

00:41:41.300 How would, how would you articulate that?

00:41:43.440 Yeah.

00:41:43.680 So it's like, um, starts with, uh, if God's a father, how do you be his son?

00:41:48.820 You know, that, that relationship.

00:41:50.480 Um, and I think for a lot of men, they have a hard time understanding God.

00:41:55.840 When you think of him like a father and you like a son and he loves you and he teaches you

00:42:00.940 and he corrects you and he's there to help you.

00:42:02.920 You're like, okay, that's a, that's a, that's an archetype to use your language.

00:42:06.900 I can get my mind around, especially when you become a dad, like you, you're a dad.

00:42:11.000 I'm a dad.

00:42:11.440 I love being a dad.

00:42:12.600 Once you become a dad, you're like, oh my gosh, if God loves me, like I love this kid.

00:42:17.040 And if God would do anything for me, like I would do for this kid.

00:42:20.860 And if God wants to help me have a good future, like I want to help this kid have a good future.

00:42:26.380 I really need to get to know this God.

00:42:28.600 And so it starts with being a son and it, and then it talks about being a husband.

00:42:33.700 It talks about Mark before I'm sorry to interrupt, but before I get to that, I do want to suggest

00:42:38.560 one thing.

00:42:39.740 Um, when it comes to the conversation of God and authority, which is what you're talking about

00:42:45.360 now, I think the common theme, and you may have experienced differently is that so many

00:42:51.220 men are unwilling to, and this is the terminology, subject themselves to authority.

00:43:00.020 For example, God.

00:43:01.260 Totally agree.

00:43:02.320 And I think it's because for most men, the authority that they're submitting themselves to

00:43:08.320 uses and abuses them.

00:43:10.260 Um, and what I, so this, so I struggle with it.

00:43:14.640 So like you, I'm, I'm a very strong personality.

00:43:18.020 I've got a lot of opinions and I'm pretty self resilient.

00:43:21.940 So I can take care of myself.

00:43:23.580 My dad was a union drywaller.

00:43:25.600 One of my first jobs, I was a longshoreman.

00:43:28.040 I'm not allergic to pain.

00:43:29.760 I'm not allergic to work.

00:43:31.080 I'm not allergic to conflict.

00:43:32.640 But what I found was that God is better to me than I am to myself.

00:43:40.500 Um, the God of the Bible is the first authority I've ever submitted to, to where he takes better 0.97

00:43:46.980 care of me than I take care of me.

00:43:49.780 And that kind of shocked me.

00:43:51.840 Um, so like, I really love, I love, I've got three sons and two daughters.

00:43:56.520 Like, I really love my kids.

00:43:57.760 Let me just say my sons, um, I care more about my sons than they care about themselves.

00:44:05.000 And I want to take better care of my sons than they would take care of themselves.

00:44:10.520 And I want to do, I want, I would sacrifice anything to bless my sons.

00:44:17.120 Okay.

00:44:17.920 And so for me, it's not just being under authority.

00:44:21.400 It's like, is this authority, good, loving, gracious, generous, humble, sacrificial?

00:44:27.760 And that's where I love where, so up until Jesus, nobody really talked about God as father.

00:44:32.780 In the history of the world, there wasn't really a lot of talk about God as a father.

00:44:36.800 And Jesus comes along and the, the word that he uses for God the most, it's his favorite

00:44:41.480 word is father.

00:44:42.860 And so for me, that, that, that God has a father's heart toward me.

00:44:48.020 Well, now that I'm a dad, like you're a dad, we get that.

00:44:51.400 So it's like, you know, so to me, if you have a dad who knows more than you and he cares

00:44:58.120 for you and he's a hundred percent committed to you, if you don't obey him, you're going

00:45:03.020 to hurt yourself.

00:45:04.260 Right.

00:45:04.700 And, and so, so for me, it's like, okay, I have a, my, my heavenly father is perfect.

00:45:10.220 If I don't obey him, I'm going to hurt myself.

00:45:12.960 So it's the first authority that I could submit to that I can guarantee every time he's right,

00:45:18.980 he's humble and he's trying to help me and protect me.

00:45:22.400 And so that puts me in a place, man, where if I live in that place, I'm actually going

00:45:29.000 to have a better life.

00:45:31.240 When you said with your sons and, and your daughters, I assume as well, that you care

00:45:39.460 more about them than they care about themselves.

00:45:42.280 Initially I thought, well, that's not true.

00:45:44.120 Like they care, they definitely care more about themselves than you care about them.

00:45:47.780 But then I started thinking about it as you were talking, you had laid out your life

00:45:51.840 for them.

00:45:52.460 They probably wouldn't lay down their lives for themselves.

00:45:56.760 Exactly.

00:45:57.580 So, you know, for me, if let's say there was, you know, danger or harm, just like you, I'm

00:46:07.160 going to get in the middle.

00:46:08.220 I will suffer or die for them because I'm their dad.

00:46:12.760 I will do anything for them.

00:46:15.620 And I would never, even if they said, no, no, no, no, no, no, let, let me get in harm's

00:46:20.460 way.

00:46:20.580 I'd be like, that's just never going to happen.

00:46:22.520 It's not going to happen.

00:46:22.900 I'm your dad.

00:46:24.260 I take care of you.

00:46:25.500 You don't take care of me. 0.98

00:46:26.680 I protect you.

00:46:27.540 You don't protect me.

00:46:28.800 Like I'm here for you, you know, and I'm not using you to benefit me.

00:46:33.680 I, and so when you become a father, if your heart is in the right place, there's a degree

00:46:39.680 of selflessness and love that most men have never experienced prior to that in their whole

00:46:44.600 life.

00:46:44.920 But once you get your kids, if you're healthy, there's something in you that gets activated

00:46:50.020 that you didn't even know was there.

00:46:52.340 I think that's a huge advantage of men that we can have children.

00:46:56.080 Um, not relative to women, obviously they can have children too, but I'm talking about men

00:47:01.680 who have children versus men who don't.

00:47:03.540 Uh, there's a level of selfishness or excuse me, selflessness that you learn that you can't

00:47:10.700 learn any other way.

00:47:12.040 And I think if we were to just encapsulate what society looks like, we've, we've moved

00:47:17.120 from a selfless society.

00:47:19.620 You think about on the back of the, I believe 80th anniversary of D-Day.

00:47:26.720 That's a, that's a selfless act.

00:47:28.900 Thousands of our sons died to today where it's very selfish.

00:47:35.140 You know, it's me, mine, let me get what I'm after.

00:47:38.460 I think when you start to have children, you move from that selfish to that selfless position.

00:47:45.160 And there's immense power in that.

00:47:47.420 I wish more and more of us would move towards being more selfless.

00:47:52.280 I think you're absolutely right.

00:47:53.340 I think it's why a lot of guys like they don't want to get married and they don't want to

00:47:55.600 have kids because they're selfish.

00:47:57.520 They're like, I don't want to be responsible for somebody else.

00:48:00.740 And I don't want somebody else to get my time or my money or my energy.

00:48:05.840 Um, but once you are a man and a husband and a father, you're like, that's why I have time,

00:48:11.220 money and energy is to bless other people, starting with my wife and kids.

00:48:16.140 I mean, you know, as well as I do, um, as a dad, what's way better than getting something

00:48:23.540 is watching your children enjoy something that you gave them.

00:48:27.780 And what's way better than you making a great memory is making it with your family.

00:48:34.220 And watching the joy in your wife, watching the joy in your kids, it, it, it, it, it multiplies

00:48:42.180 your joy.

00:48:43.700 Like, um, like when my wife is smiling and my kids are smiling, that's better than any

00:48:49.820 smile I've ever had as a man.

00:48:54.220 One small example of that is I have a trip planned later this year with my oldest son.

00:48:58.660 We're going to Africa.

00:48:59.400 We're going hunting in Africa and there's a couple of different packages that we could

00:49:03.800 purchase to, in order to complete this hunt.

00:49:07.580 And we bought two of them.

00:49:09.260 We bought the premier and we bought the lower level.

00:49:11.840 And the guy I was talking with, he's like, oh, that's cool.

00:49:14.120 You're going to do the premier.

00:49:15.020 I'm like, I'm not doing the premier.

00:49:16.660 My son's doing the premier.

00:49:18.100 I'm doing the lower level.

00:49:19.620 And he's like, what, why wouldn't you do the premier?

00:49:21.680 I'm like, because if my son does the premier, I get the benefit of the hunt, but to watch

00:49:29.040 him do what he loves to do, and he's a better hunter than I am, loves to do this, like that

00:49:36.080 to me is worth more than me doing it myself.

00:49:38.680 That's a very small example.

00:49:41.200 No, but I think it points to the fact that because we are men and we are made by God and

00:49:47.440 he's a father and we're his sons, we now understand his heart toward us as we raise our sons.

00:49:55.880 And imagine if God feels about you the way you feel about your son, but the way he feels

00:50:03.600 is perfect and infinite.

00:50:07.800 I mean, we don't have a category for that.

00:50:09.820 Um, but even like tonight, um, I've got a wonderful life.

00:50:15.300 I'm the most blessed person I know.

00:50:17.600 Uh, tonight, here's what I'm really excited about.

00:50:21.260 My grandson's coming over.

00:50:23.220 Uh, my daughter and son-in-law are going to go on a date.

00:50:26.000 So I get to hang out with my grandson and he's going to throw up on me and he's going

00:50:31.560 to pull my beard.

00:50:33.240 Um, and if other people did that, I wouldn't be looking forward to it.

00:50:37.280 True, but he's my grandson.

00:50:41.720 And so I'm super looking forward to it.

00:50:44.580 I believe that is the father heart of God toward us that, you know, we're, we're kids

00:50:50.080 that pull his beard and throw up on him and he just loves us.

00:50:52.880 And this is where the Bible talks about the grace of God and the love of God and the mercy

00:50:56.900 of God and the forgiveness of God.

00:50:58.760 And that's where I think, um, even men who don't know God, when they have a healthy relationship

00:51:05.000 with their wife and their kids, something in them starts to understand a little bit more

00:51:11.260 of what God's heart is like toward them.

00:51:15.760 Yeah, man, that's powerful.

00:51:17.740 You know, this leads me into one of the other archetypes because we often see these things

00:51:22.420 with men about love from a woman being conditional or acceptance from society being conditional

00:51:29.800 based on what a man can provide into myself.

00:51:32.340 I'm like, that's true.

00:51:33.480 I, I agree with that, but what a great honor, you know, what, what a great honor that, that

00:51:41.720 I can be capable of providing something of value to my family or to community or to random

00:51:50.540 strangers on the internet who happened to listen to this podcast.

00:51:54.000 And I try not to derive my sense of worth.

00:51:57.200 I think I have an eternal sense of worth.

00:51:58.860 I, so I try not to derive it from the external validation of others, but isn't that a beautiful

00:52:04.720 thing?

00:52:05.240 And I think this ties into the archetype of worker that you talk about in, in your book,

00:52:10.660 you know, is, is we are meant to be workers.

00:52:13.360 We are meant to do something meaningful and significant and contribute to society in a

00:52:18.060 meaningful way.

00:52:19.620 A hundred percent. 0.87

00:52:20.660 And men who don't activate and work, we know for a fact they have mental health problems

00:52:26.860 and depression.

00:52:28.240 I mean, to me, it's like a racehorse that never gets out of the barn.

00:52:32.220 You know, like you, you were made to run, you need to run.

00:52:35.520 And, and, and what we did, I don't know where you're at politically, I could probably guess,

00:52:38.820 but like what we did during COVID, we told a whole generation of young men, be afraid,

00:52:44.600 go home, sit on the couch, be filled with fear and wait for the government to send you

00:52:50.960 money.

00:52:51.600 Don't plan on getting married.

00:52:53.460 Don't plan on having kids.

00:52:55.320 Don't plan on going to work.

00:52:57.180 Don't plan on launching a company.

00:52:59.280 So now we've got a generational crisis, not in the labor force.

00:53:03.520 NILF, it's the largest percentage of young, able-bodied men that are either not working

00:53:08.980 or seeking work in the history of the United States of America.

00:53:12.920 Well, so here's what happens.

00:53:14.680 If the men aren't working, the government has to get bigger because if the men aren't

00:53:19.580 taking care of the women and the children, then the government needs to.

00:53:22.580 Well, the problem then is the government doesn't generate any revenue.

00:53:26.460 They only get money by taxing people who are working.

00:53:29.660 So now you have men who are not working, the government gets bigger, there's nobody 0.99

00:53:34.380 to tax, so we just go into debt.

00:53:37.320 And so literally this issue is going to be the death of the greatest nation in the history

00:53:43.120 of the world.

00:53:44.660 It's the issue because if you're feeding your family and I'm feeding my family, we don't

00:53:50.300 need the government to do those things.

00:53:52.060 If we don't do our job and the government tries, who the heck is going to pay for it if

00:53:56.740 we aren't going to work?

00:53:58.300 This is America.

00:53:59.060 This is the crisis.

00:54:01.740 Do you think there is a deliberate plan, a master plan to undermine and erode the value

00:54:14.740 of men in society as the leaders of their homes, the leader of, and I'm not talking about spiritual.

00:54:20.100 We can talk about that too.

00:54:21.480 I'm talking about temporal.

00:54:22.780 I'm talking about politically.

00:54:25.040 Is there a clear, deliberate mission to erode and undermine men in the home and men

00:54:32.700 in the community?

00:54:34.340 To me, that's exactly what it looks like. 1.00

00:54:36.700 I mean, because there is stupid, but this is comprehensive stupidity. 1.00

00:54:42.580 I mean, we're taking perfectly healthy little boys and we're telling them, maybe you're 1.00

00:54:46.680 a girl and maybe you should stop puberty and maybe you should cut your junk off and, you 1.00

00:54:51.840 know, maybe you should be on pills for the rest of your life. 0.99

00:54:54.200 And it's like, this isn't just a bad idea.

00:54:57.020 Uh, this is abusive and it's evil and it's wrong.

00:55:01.100 And so there seems to be a heightened coordinated effort from government and entertainment all

00:55:08.400 the way to education and the media that seems strategically targeted to eradicate masculinity.

00:55:18.020 And I know that's a strong statement, but that's what it is.

00:55:21.780 I mean, we have the National Organization for Women. 0.97

00:55:24.120 There's no National Organization for Men.

00:55:25.720 You can get a women's studies degree. 0.99

00:55:27.200 You can't get a men's studies degree.

00:55:28.720 We have Pride Month.

00:55:29.680 We don't have, you know, we don't have like, you know, heterosexual male worker month.

00:55:35.420 You know, I mean, it's the whole world is-

00:55:37.500 Even though those are the people who have created the society that we enjoy.

00:55:41.560 Yeah.

00:55:42.320 Well, yeah.

00:55:42.660 If you didn't have strong, competent, able-bodied men that could win wars and build cities,

00:55:47.600 you wouldn't have nothing, you know, that exists today to even weaponize against men who

00:55:54.020 could be building things.

00:55:55.140 And so, yes, I do believe it is coordinated.

00:55:57.360 And so I'm a Bible-believing Christian.

00:55:59.680 But I do believe this.

00:56:01.020 I believe if you don't believe in God, you replace God with government.

00:56:05.720 And so God is all-knowing.

00:56:07.600 He's got all power.

00:56:08.820 And he's ever-present.

00:56:10.460 And the government's always trying to be God.

00:56:12.680 It wants to know everything about you.

00:56:14.620 It wants to put cameras and artificial intelligence to track every inch of your being.

00:56:20.900 And it wants to have all the power and control.

00:56:23.420 And so, you know, I do believe we need some government, but government is primarily there,

00:56:29.260 in my opinion, to protect us from foreign enemies, to secure our borders so that we can

00:56:34.660 live our lives and enjoy our liberties.

00:56:36.320 And what we're seeing right now is the only way that the government can take away freedom

00:56:41.020 and liberty is to get rid of strong men, because strong men are the only ones that will say,

00:56:45.880 hey, you stay in your lane.

00:56:47.880 You're not God, and you're not husband, and you're not father.

00:56:51.840 You're just government. 0.99

00:56:52.760 So stay in your freaking lane. 0.99

00:56:54.580 Once you get rid of the strong men, then government rules and reigns everything. 0.99

00:56:59.900 Yeah, I look at the other element of government is this, you know, I played sports growing up.

00:57:05.420 I watched my boys play sports.

00:57:06.760 And you look at umpires and referees.

00:57:09.100 They don't make the rules.

00:57:10.660 They just enforce them.

00:57:12.820 And I also look at that as a governmental role.

00:57:16.320 You know, we're going to level the playing field.

00:57:17.920 We're going to make sure everybody's playing by the same rules.

00:57:19.920 And there's going to be consequences for unrighteous or unvirtuous living

00:57:24.440 or taking advantage of other people.

00:57:26.460 And so we're here to administer that.

00:57:28.700 But I pretty much agree with you on that, the idea of replacing God with government.

00:57:38.840 And I think there's an ultimate puppet master, that's Satan.

00:57:43.720 That's what I believe.

00:57:45.280 I 100% agree with you.

00:57:46.420 I believe if you look at this, you're like, how do you get this much architected, coordinated evil,

00:57:53.180 especially toward healthy, strong men?

00:57:56.400 I would agree with you that behind all of this, there is darkness, there is evil,

00:58:02.560 there is a conscious being named Satan, and that he is definitely at work.

00:58:07.840 I mean, just look at right now.

00:58:09.380 Like, so you're 43 and 53, the erosion in our culture in just our lifetime is shocking.

00:58:17.340 I mean, to think that right now, like we're sexualizing children, and we're pushing hard

00:58:23.120 to change the age of consent.

00:58:25.540 And we're telling little boys that they need to be considering their sexual desires.

00:58:31.180 You're like, this is evil.

00:58:33.580 This isn't just like a bad idea.

00:58:35.500 This is evil.

00:58:37.340 Yeah.

00:58:39.300 Yeah, it's unfortunate.

00:58:40.900 And I, you know, I almost, it's interesting because you have this ultimate puppet master, 0.99

00:58:46.300 but then you have these, the term is useful idiots, right? 0.99

00:58:49.820 These people who I don't, I don't actually believe are evil. 0.99

00:58:53.620 I think there's plenty of people who I don't think are evil people.

00:58:56.940 But they are being manipulated.

00:59:00.720 They are being controlled.

00:59:02.080 They are being used as, you and I would use a drill, an inanimate object to accomplish the task.

00:59:10.260 And these people are being used like inanimate objects, tools for this greater destruction of society.

00:59:17.780 It's a very scary time.

00:59:19.940 But it's also a very hopeful and optimistic time because there's guys like you and other people

00:59:23.780 who are willing to have these types of conversations and, and willing to call a spade a spade,

00:59:28.280 which I, I wish there was more people doing it because I know there's more people thinking it.

00:59:33.960 Yeah.

00:59:34.560 I think there's a large percentage of men that are just angry and frustrated and,

00:59:39.300 and maybe the encouragement in it, this is what I've told my sons.

00:59:42.480 The youngest is 18, just graduated.

00:59:45.080 My other two sons are married and both have kids on the way.

00:59:48.640 I told them the good news is most young men are not activated.

00:59:53.300 They're not, they're not, they haven't moved out of their mom's house until they're in their thirties.

00:59:57.460 They've not really looked for a career job until they're in their thirties.

01:00:00.240 They're, they're not sure they want to have kids until they're in their early to mid thirties.

01:00:03.720 I keep telling, you know, the guys that I have the influence on, I was like, get started, man.

01:00:08.160 Like if you're 20 and you get up, right?

01:00:11.060 You get up, well, it's still single digits on the clock.

01:00:14.260 You leave the house without wearing your pajamas.

01:00:17.040 And, uh, you're sober and you decide I'm going to go look for a job and I'm going to work hard.

01:00:23.880 You're 10 years ahead.

01:00:25.560 Like it's like a NASCAR race.

01:00:27.780 Everybody else is in the pits drunk with a trophy girl for 10 years. 0.99

01:00:31.760 Even if your car doesn't run well, if it's on the road, you're winning and you're way, way ahead.

01:00:37.560 So I've told my sons like, get a career, get a wife, have a kid, buy a house as soon as possible, get going, build some momentum.

01:00:48.100 And you'll be so far ahead that literally, uh, for the rest of your life, you could just be building momentum in a broken world where other guys are not doing anything.

01:00:57.300 So I think for those guys that want to get activated and take responsibility, it's like, man, there's no competition.

01:01:03.840 You, you are, you are a unicorn.

01:01:07.560 Yeah. And what a great position to be in for opportunities, opportunities to find a good woman, opportunities to start businesses, opportunities to influence your kids or community members in positive ways.

01:01:19.120 So many opportunities because nobody else is doing it today.

01:01:23.680 That's exactly. So that, that's the big idea behind the act like a man book is like, yeah, everything's screwed up.

01:01:28.860 Let me try and explain why, but here's what men can do.

01:01:31.860 And actually it's a great opportunity, uh, because if there aren't many men that are actually, you know, activated with a plan, making progress, those men who do, those men are at an exceeding advantage.

01:01:46.840 I mean, I think you're a military guy like this is fighting downhill versus uphill.

01:01:51.840 You've got a strategic position for the rest of your life that, that gives you a point of strength.

01:01:59.240 And not only is it strategic from where I sit, because obviously there's huge advantages and opportunities that come with it.

01:02:06.760 You're just going to feel better about yourself.

01:02:08.740 I mean, every man who listens to this podcast, that's what he wants.

01:02:12.440 Like he wants to feel fulfilled.

01:02:14.780 He wants to feel like what he's doing matters and it's important work, whether it's in the walls of his home or the, the, the streets of his community.

01:02:23.140 He wants to feel like he matters, like he's making a difference.

01:02:27.780 And I think I a hundred percent agree.

01:02:30.060 God hardwired within a man, something that he wants to get up in the morning, look in the mirror and respect that guy.

01:02:39.940 And then when he comes home, he wants his wife to respect that guy.

01:02:46.020 And he wants his kids to respect that guy.

01:02:49.460 And so, you know, the Bible says, this is where men and women are a little different for women.

01:02:53.480 Their greatest need is love for a man.

01:02:55.900 It's respect.

01:02:57.660 Most men would be like, you know, whether my coworkers love me or don't love me, I don't care.

01:03:03.000 Do they respect me?

01:03:03.960 And so the best way as a man to be respected is to live in a way that's respectful.

01:03:11.320 And there's something about saying, you know what?

01:03:13.440 I know I'm not perfect.

01:03:14.520 I got my false flaws and failures, but you know what?

01:03:17.320 I get up every day and I try to be a good man.

01:03:20.480 I try to do what's right.

01:03:22.080 I try to take care of my wife and kids.

01:03:24.000 I try to take care of my responsibilities.

01:03:26.060 People can count on me.

01:03:27.260 There's something in that as a man that is so deeply, profoundly satisfying because that's what we were made for.

01:03:34.940 And that's where guys that don't activate, that's why they have depression and mental health and suicidal ideation.

01:03:41.360 It's like some guys don't need pills.

01:03:43.800 They need purpose.

01:03:46.660 I'm sure you're familiar with John Eldridge and his work.

01:03:50.340 Wild at Heart was a transformative book for me.

01:03:52.560 And of course, he's written others.

01:03:53.620 He says, and I'm paraphrasing, that women are constantly asking the question, am I beautiful?

01:04:01.100 Which I think mirrors what you're saying.

01:04:03.220 Am I lovable?

01:04:05.180 And men are asking the question, am I capable?

01:04:09.960 Which, to mirror what you said, am I respectable?

01:04:13.680 Am I worthy of other people's respect?

01:04:16.940 Yeah, and there's something about, and this is where it's so important to have fathers or spiritual fathers

01:04:22.160 that actually can tell a man, like, I'm proud of you.

01:04:26.260 You're doing a good job.

01:04:27.760 You know, I honor your effort.

01:04:29.780 I think that we're lacking that in our world.

01:04:32.180 And what most men only get is constant criticism and berating.

01:04:38.020 And that's where, as men, especially as we get older, it's really an opportunity for us to bless and to say, I am proud of you.

01:04:46.980 You know, I know that was hard, but thank you for putting in the effort.

01:04:51.800 You know, you are a good man, and you're good at being a man.

01:04:55.240 Just those kinds of deposits, especially in younger men, if they're true, that is just pouring life and courage into a man.

01:05:05.640 Because, again, most of our world really has nothing good to say about men. 1.00

01:05:11.700 You know, most of the sitcoms, most of the kids' shows, most of the movies, the husband, the father is a buffoon and an idiot, 1.00

01:05:18.700 and, you know, and the family pet saves the day. 1.00

01:05:21.320 Well, we know that's not true.

01:05:23.420 And so, like, I have seen, it's just, it's really weird.

01:05:28.040 Now, being 53, like, there was a guy, this happens quite a bit, there was a guy recently, he's really gotten activated.

01:05:35.220 He was one of those guys, he wasn't even peering out the sphincter two years ago, like, couldn't even see light, you know. 1.00

01:05:42.020 Just, his whole life was just an idiot fest. 0.99

01:05:46.440 But then he's like, okay, I gotta, I'm gonna get a job, I'm gonna get sober, I'm gonna move out of my mom's house, 1.00

01:05:51.620 I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna pay off my debt, you know, then I want to marry a girl and have a family.

01:05:57.380 So he started going, and he's making progress, and it's amazing how quickly he's making progress.

01:06:01.720 And I just looked him in the eye, and I said, I'm really proud of you.

01:06:06.940 And he just teared up.

01:06:08.380 He's like, I've never had a man older than me ever say that in my whole life.

01:06:12.700 He's like, well, then this world is freaking broken, and we're encouraging all the wrong things.

01:06:20.620 I wrote that down.

01:06:22.400 I don't know if you can see, I'm looking down at my computer when I do.

01:06:24.980 It's not that I'm distracted or checking emails, I'm writing notes.

01:06:27.340 I wrote that down, I am proud of you.

01:06:31.040 I mean, imagine if more of us, millions and millions of us, use that term more frequently,

01:06:36.560 in earnest, right?

01:06:37.760 Not just flippantly, but in earnest.

01:06:39.280 In earnest, yeah, not trite.

01:06:41.280 But the word encouragement literally means to pour courage into someone.

01:06:48.800 And so sometimes a man doesn't have the courage that he needs,

01:06:52.740 so another man pours that into him.

01:06:55.000 We call that encouragement.

01:06:56.000 So until you have your own courage, sometimes you have to borrow somebody else's.

01:07:01.540 So what we're seeing is a lack of courage among men, just a lack of courage.

01:07:05.920 I mean, a lack of courage to have conviction, to take initiative, to get married, to have kids,

01:07:11.660 you know, to work a job, to start a company, all the things we're talking about.

01:07:14.460 And the answer is, well, how do we get men courage?

01:07:17.000 We encourage them.

01:07:19.600 That's what we do.

01:07:20.760 We bless them.

01:07:21.500 And, I mean, I can still, so when my boys were little, you know, I wouldn't squat, I would crouch down.

01:07:30.320 I used to be a catcher.

01:07:31.240 So I would crouch down to look my sons in the eye.

01:07:35.620 And I would just try to encourage them.

01:07:39.120 I'm your dad.

01:07:39.960 I love you.

01:07:40.920 You're a blessing to me.

01:07:42.160 I like being your dad.

01:07:44.140 You know, today I know is a hard day.

01:07:45.960 You know, you were the last out at the Little League game.

01:07:48.660 But I'm proud of you because you went down swinging.

01:07:52.100 And just those deposits that we can make in our boys and other men, but especially as we get older, younger men, it means the world.

01:08:01.200 I mean, I had a guy recently, I've got a weekly men's Bible study called Real Men at our church.

01:08:07.440 Like 600 men show up.

01:08:09.180 It's amazing.

01:08:10.700 A guy came up to me recently and he said, I'm thinking about starting a company.

01:08:15.940 He'd been working for somebody for a long time.

01:08:17.760 He's a tradesman.

01:08:18.640 And I looked at him.

01:08:19.420 I said, I honestly believe that you're going to succeed.

01:08:24.620 And he looked at me and said, well, then I'm going to start the company.

01:08:29.520 You know, he just needed somebody to pour a little courage into him.

01:08:32.740 That's all he needed.

01:08:33.580 Yeah.

01:08:34.380 Just a little, just a little bit.

01:08:36.260 And so, you know, men don't need a lot of flattery and we don't need a lot of insincere platitudes.

01:08:43.420 But when there's a dude that you respect and he encourages you, your courage goes up and you become a stronger, better man.

01:08:52.980 I love it.

01:08:53.720 Another phrase that I wrote down here, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this is, so you said, I'm proud of you.

01:08:59.240 Another one I wrote down is you can do this.

01:09:02.040 I believe in you.

01:09:04.600 I mean, this is, I believe, that's what you just said.

01:09:06.360 I believe in you.

01:09:07.300 I believe you can do this.

01:09:09.760 Yes.

01:09:10.840 And that's where, that's why I love being a dad.

01:09:14.620 Because being a dad, you're, you're the coach.

01:09:17.540 You're the encourager.

01:09:18.380 Or, you know, you know this with your sons, like, they're like, I don't know if I can do this.

01:09:22.680 You're like, you can.

01:09:23.580 They're like, I can.

01:09:26.100 That's just how you, that's how you take guys from boy to man.

01:09:30.360 You, you tell them what's going to happen.

01:09:33.320 And then they believe that they can do it because someone they trust told them they can.

01:09:40.680 That's where, that's where men, you know, it's where men need healthy relationships and we need other men.

01:09:46.180 And again, I think, so part of this too, this will sound negative, but I'm the older guy.

01:09:50.500 I think there's a whole generation of older guys who should be encouraging and pouring courage into young men.

01:09:55.960 And instead, they're retiring, they're traveling, they're in their RV rather than being in their kids' and grandkids' lives.

01:10:02.200 Going golfing, right, with other buddies.

01:10:04.140 They're golfing, they've got their country club membership.

01:10:06.700 And it's like, man, your voice is so loud in the life of your sons, your grandsons, your co-workers, men who respect you.

01:10:15.900 Don't retire from being a man.

01:10:19.000 You can retire from your job, but don't retire from being a man.

01:10:23.500 We need you to coach.

01:10:25.400 We need you to encourage.

01:10:27.300 We need you to bless.

01:10:28.920 We need you to help.

01:10:30.480 And if you don't do your job, the next generation of young men is starting at zero.

01:10:35.040 Mark, I'm going to, we're bumping up against time here, but you said this, you said they need somebody they trust.

01:10:45.060 And trust really stood out to me.

01:10:46.440 And I'm just going to go through some of these archetypes.

01:10:48.300 I don't know if you call them archetypes.

01:10:49.500 That's the term I used.

01:10:50.460 But I think you've got maybe 10 or so archetypes here.

01:10:54.340 But we talked about son, worshiping your father.

01:10:58.320 We talked about, in a roundabout way, being a father, leaving your legacy.

01:11:03.320 Um, worker, doing your job.

01:11:05.800 But you've got warrior here, slaying your dragon, son, or excuse me, uh, man, which is your identity as a man.

01:11:12.580 Artist, which is interesting, creating culture.

01:11:15.420 Husband, loving your princess.

01:11:16.900 Um, I, I don't want to give away everything in this book, but I would love for you to tell me where the guys can connect with you, learn more about your message.

01:11:25.920 And then obviously this is coming out Father's Day.

01:11:28.300 So this will, the, the book comes out June 16th.

01:11:31.400 This podcast, if I have my dates correct, releases June 18th.

01:11:34.880 So the book's available now as of the release of this podcast.

01:11:38.760 So where do they pick up a copy?

01:11:41.080 Yeah.

01:11:41.560 Real faith.com is where you can find me, uh, at real faith.com.

01:11:45.000 There's my Bible teaching and, and there's a, there's a lot of stuff there for men.

01:11:48.860 There's a whole subsection called real men.

01:11:51.300 Um, and just so everyone knows, like I've been waiting 30 years to write this book.

01:11:55.380 I wanted to become a husband, father, grandfather, before I started talking about masculinity.

01:12:00.740 I have a massive heart to help men, especially young men.

01:12:04.240 And in this book, um, we have no, uh, publisher.

01:12:08.260 We have no sponsor.

01:12:09.460 We have no advertisers.

01:12:10.720 Cause I wanted to just be able to say what needed to be said without being canceled.

01:12:15.440 And I'm not taking any revenue from it.

01:12:18.180 Um, I'm not generating any sales income or anything like that.

01:12:21.920 I just wanted to do what I could to help guys.

01:12:25.220 Cause I care very deeply.

01:12:26.840 And I wanted to make sure that my motives were clean and pure.

01:12:29.980 And that this wasn't me just trying to, you know, enrich or benefit myself in some way,

01:12:35.320 but to really help the guys.

01:12:36.640 And so I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to share your platform and the

01:12:41.600 trust that you've built with those who follow you.

01:12:44.460 Um, I don't say this in any patronizing way.

01:12:48.260 I really love you.

01:12:49.920 And, um, if you're ever in Arizona, I would really just love to hang out offline.

01:12:55.440 And going forward, if you have any more questions about Jesus or the Bible, I would consider

01:13:00.900 it a great honor to try and answer those for you.

01:13:03.360 You're going to regret that, Mark.

01:13:04.960 You're going to regret that.

01:13:05.900 You're going to regret, regret saying that, but I'll take you up on that for sure.

01:13:09.280 No, honestly, I, I would be honored.

01:13:11.900 And so many men look to you and they're following you.

01:13:16.420 And if you're trying to answer some things, just think of all the guys that you could be

01:13:21.320 helping.

01:13:21.760 It's really a wonderful opportunity.

01:13:23.480 So thank you.

01:13:24.260 Thank you, brother.

01:13:25.620 I appreciate it.

01:13:26.240 Like I said, I've been a longtime follower.

01:13:27.980 And one thing I would say about you, multiple things is, man, I just, I appreciate your courage.

01:13:33.360 And, and I believe in a lot of what you're saying.

01:13:36.540 I know a lot of guys probably don't, but even if you don't, I think there's some lessons

01:13:40.500 to be learned in the way that you're convicted in what you believe and that you stand by and

01:13:47.140 you're willing to, uh, put yourself on the line that I know we started out with something

01:13:53.320 that you didn't think we were going to necessarily get into.

01:13:55.480 But the thing that stood out to me most about that was here's a guy that got invited to a

01:14:00.460 thing.

01:14:00.820 I'm just, I'm assuming you got invited to it and maybe you got compensated.

01:14:05.800 Maybe you didn't.

01:14:06.280 I don't know, but you were willing to ostracize yourself from the group to say what you thought

01:14:13.040 was right.

01:14:13.840 And if there's nothing I knew about you other than that, I think that would be enough.

01:14:19.400 And that's powerful.

01:14:20.520 And that's a lesson that I think a lot of us men need to learn and adhere to, uh, more

01:14:25.620 frequently in our lives.

01:14:26.600 So, man, I appreciate you.

01:14:28.700 I appreciate the encouragement.

01:14:30.060 Thanks for the time, my friend.

01:14:31.580 Thank you, brother.

01:14:34.120 Man, there you go.

01:14:35.060 Mark Driscoll.

01:14:35.720 I've been really excited to have this conversation.

01:14:37.660 So I'm glad that we could finally make it work.

01:14:39.980 Uh, very enlightening for me.

01:14:41.720 I got a lot of my questions answered and I have a lot more soul searching to do personally,

01:14:46.180 but also just the information that's in his book on the archetypes and everything that

01:14:50.280 we address today.

01:14:51.500 Uh, the book is already out.

01:14:52.860 It came out over the weekend or father's day.

01:14:54.660 So if you are interested in his newest book, act like a man, then you can go to, I believe 0.98

01:14:59.760 it's at realfaith.com slash man, realfaith.com slash man, uh, outside of that guys, connect

01:15:08.660 with me on the gram, connect with Mark on the gram or wherever you're doing your social

01:15:12.020 media thing.

01:15:12.740 That's where I'm most active typically.

01:15:14.500 And the last thing is make sure you join us, band with us inside the iron council at

01:15:19.200 order of man.com slash iron council, then we will be back tomorrow.

01:15:24.160 You have your marching orders, act like a man book, iron council, uh, brotherhood.

01:15:29.820 And that's what you'll need to do.

01:15:31.880 All right, guys, we'll see you tomorrow until then go out there, take action and become a

01:15:35.680 man you are meant to be.

Order of Man - June 18, 2024

MARK DRISCOLL ｜ Act Like a Man

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