Masculinity： When Men Cry ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 6 minutes
Words per Minute
173.13591
Summary
When is it appropriate to cry in front of your kids? What about when it's appropriate to be stoic? Is it okay to cry at work? Should you cry in public? What are the right and wrong ways to be a man in the workplace? What should we do when emotions run high? And what s the best way to deal with them? All that and much more on this episode of the podcast.
Transcript
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If you're trying to be a father in the moment and your kids need you to not cry because they need you to be strong and stoic and present and available mentally, emotionally, so they can cry, then it's not appropriate for you to.
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If you're really upset about, for example, your mother passing away, but you're at work and you're sitting down with a client, probably not appropriate to bawl your eyes out in front of them because you have work to do as a man.
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But yes, sometimes you need to stuff it and say, hey, I'm just going to put a pin in that crying for a minute.
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I'm going to do my work. I'll come back to that when it's appropriate.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.
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Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
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When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.
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Every time you are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
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This is who you will become at the end of the day.
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And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
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All right, Kip, now that we got all the banter out of the way pre-recording, we can actually get started.
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So I figured, you know, some of the banter is good for the guys.
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Some of it, they probably just don't give a crap about any of the things that we talk about.
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Although it is a little bit of a necessity just to touch base really quick before we hit the record button.
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Well, should we get to some headlines and then we'll get to some questions for today?
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I might disappoint on the headlines, to be honest with you.
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You know, obviously this week or weekend, the big headline is opening ceremonies for the 2024 Olympics.
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And the outrage right now is that the opening ceremonies consisted of drag queens, essentially,
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I saw, I've heard all the upset about it, but I didn't watch it.
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But anyways, they basically, essentially, they recreated Da Vinci's The Last Supper.
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Most of these people, these deconstructionists, they hate modern civilization.
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And so they just attempt to make a mockery out of it.
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And they do it on purpose, deliberately and intentionally, to get a rise out of people.
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They'll jump on Facebook and they say the most outlandish things, not because they actually
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believe it, but because they just want to piss people off, it seems like.
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And what's frustrating to me is that we give them platforms and we take them seriously.
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And the best thing that we can do is to not participate in the shenanigans.
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Don't buy from the sponsors who are sponsoring the Olympics.
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Don't go to those countries during the Olympics.
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We can vote with the most important thing, our time, attention, and our money.
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And the more that we drop all this stuff all over social media, that they're getting exactly
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They want the outrage because it drives traffic to their videos and their events and things
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So if you just cut off the fuel source, you know, I've got a candle that sits on my table
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And then to turn to, I can't even think of it, but not to have it go anymore.
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Because then all of a sudden it chokes itself out.
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There's no more oxygen for that candle to burn.
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And instead, why don't we take our money and take our attention and our energy and start
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shifting it and focusing it on good, wholesome entertainment, uplifting, edifying content,
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educational, inspiring, entertaining mediums, and all of that other stuff.
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I mean, some stuff we need to get brought up and we need to pay attention to because it's
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so egregious that we can't allow it to even exist.
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They're trying to work you up and let's just divert our time, energy, and resources into
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Do you think, so there was an apology that was given, right, by the Olympics for that
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That implies, do you think they didn't know or is this all part of the strategy?
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And then if it gets too high or too heightened, we'll do an apology.
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Or how would the committee not know what the entertainment.
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And then we live in this culture now where apologies and accountability, apologies exist,
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A great example of that, and this is a little different now because the, I can't remember
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her name, the director of the Secret Service, you know, it's the charade.
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It's you go in front of Congress, you say, you plead the fifth, or you give them no answers,
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and you say, I don't recall, and we're in an investigation, there's no answers, there's
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no accountability, and then she just decides to stick around.
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Now, at this point, there may not be a great example because she ultimately did step
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down, but there's zero accountability, so I could just say the most outlandish thing to
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anybody or about anything, and then I could just come in and say sorry, and, you know,
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the next minute, somebody will be outraged about something else.
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So, it's, it was deliberate, it's intentional, so don't even apologize.
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It's better if you don't apologize because you don't actually really care.
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What you care about is that other people got upset, not that you did the wrong thing.
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You know, I, for me, I think the, the main thing that crossed my mind, obviously, this
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was all over the internet, and so I was thinking about the, the same thing about how much of
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this was, like, highly intentional, just knowing it would be controversial, knowing that it would
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fire people up, you know, it would just create a wildfire of awareness of what they're doing
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because that's what happens even when we complain, like, look at us, right?
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Anybody that didn't know about it, no, now, now knows about it because we're even talking
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Um, and then the only other thing that crossed my mind this weekend that just, I don't understand
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And I don't have a strong, uh, believe it or not, a strong opinion about, I have a strong
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opinion about the event, but I don't have anything to say for it other than I'm just,
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And, and that really is founded in the people that were, uh, the American communist protests
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Where we have U.S. citizens march in the streets of Philly, suggesting that we need to go in the
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And it blows my mind that we are so naive that that has been tried and it doesn't work.
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Like, are you honestly okay with no private property?
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Like, I don't know if people ever complete the thought, right?
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Or if it's just tribalization and they feel like they're fighting.
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I don't understand where the naiveness is coming from or the lack of critical thinking,
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And, and more and more, I was talking with our, I have some theories on that.
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Um, she's in town from London and she was asking me about politics and she's like, well,
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And, and I, I'm like, you know what, Susie, I go in the grand scheme of things.
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We're, I think as citizens, we get what the, where our government is an outward expression
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That's the sad part is collectively we're getting exactly what we've asked for.
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And, um, and that, that makes me sad, but it also reinforces what we're doing.
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What we're doing here in the iron council within order of man and the way we show up in our
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Um, and so maybe that's my takeaway is just what we're doing is, is on the right path.
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Of why people are not only, not only keep it up, but maximize it.
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There's evil people and then there's ignorant people and evil people are the ones, uh, making
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the decisions, calling the shots, the ignorant that you also often hear them called useful
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And the reason they don't know is because of this.
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I haven't read it, but the Overton window is basically in this context, the window of
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that, which is acceptable in the political space.
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You know, you have the far left and you have the far right, but there's the Overton window.
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And so what ends up happening is if you push too hard past the Overton window, it's not comfortable
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Bud Light pushed too far outside of the Overton window and they got hurt bad because of it,
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So when Pepsi, or not Pepsi, excuse me, Bud Light takes three steps forward past the range
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of the acceptable Overton window, when they backpedal, they only take two steps back.
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And then the next time they take their three, two, three, two, three, two.
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And all of a sudden now you have this Overton window that shifts so far that you have guys
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like Bill Maher and Joe Rogan and Elon Musk and even Mark Zuckerberg was making comments
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about Trump being badass after that assassination attempt.
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And it's been pushed so far that the Liberal Party, the Democratic Party is no longer recognizable
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So in order to combat that, the reality is you can't just be neutral because people are going
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At some point, you have to fight back and you have to push the Overton window back this
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He was kind, empathetic, compassionate, but he was also passionate.
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He died a horrible, gruesome, miserable death for what he believed in.
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He was a champion of Christianity, of those virtues.
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So we need strong people who are not going to just simply say, yeah, it's okay.
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We need fighters who are going to push back in hard ways.
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And that's a little bit about the point I was making with where you spend your money
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Fight back and put it into other avenues that are better for you.
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To learn more about the Iron Council, go to orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.
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And then we'll jump over to our Facebook group.
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That's facebook.com slash group slash orderofman.
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Adam Lewis, how to address a passing of a parent, mother in particular, suddenly while also having
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Um, he said, he mentioned this internally within Iron Council, which is one of the greatest
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benefits of our, of our mastermind, because these guys, we can deal with real things in
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the real world, but he wanted to also, um, get our opinions on this as well.
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I mean, first and foremost, I'm really sorry for that, for that loss.
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Um, I've never dealt with this specifically, but, um, when my daughter was born, my ex-wife's
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grandfather passed away just a couple of days later and they were really, really close.
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And fortunately he got to see our daughter before he passed away.
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But I know that was a really hard time on her because she felt so conflicted.
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And there was almost a little bit of guilt about being so happy about this new addition
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to the family, knowing that her grandfather, somebody who was the patriarch really of the
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And that was a hard thing I remember for her to wrestle with, like being happy and joyful
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You can be sad about the loss and you can be really grateful and happy for the addition
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Um, I think that's probably, did he say his mother passed away?
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I think she would want you to take the lessons that she taught you, the experiences that you
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guys have had together, the good times, the bad times, the hard times, the up to all of
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it and pour into that little girl, little boy, little boy, did it, did he say little
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boy, little boy, pour into that little boy and, and take those lessons and pass those
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Um, I wish there was something I could do, like just say, Hey, step one is this step
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And this afternoon, you'd be feeling a lot better.
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I would just say, it's okay to be sad and happy and just remember what your mom would
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want and how, if she was still here with us, how she would treat that little baby boy and
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I haven't dealt with this obviously either, not this specific scenario, but I mean, what
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I mean, this is what it is, you know, um, amazing blessings and new life and the creation
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and, and, and we all have mortality knocking on our doorstep and, and that's beautiful
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So I know it's not easy with a parent passing away and it's not maybe ideal, but we, that
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we will all experience that and thus we die prematurely early before our parents, but it
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And so I, I, you know, I, I think we talked about this the last week a little bit as well.
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It's, it's okay that you're sad and it's okay that you're happy.
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Sit with it, be with it, embrace it, see it for what it is.
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Um, and, and my, my apologies, man, I, I feel for you losing a parent that's super tough.
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I mean, yeah, it's a, it's a miracle and it's a beautiful thing.
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So I, sometimes I feel weird when people have questions about things like this.
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It's, it almost, whatever, any advice I could give almost comes across as insensitive because
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I don't really, even though I might've had similar experiences, maybe even if my mother
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had passed away, knock on wood, she has not, but it's still different.
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And for me to give you an opinion or input or advice almost seems like, again, insensitive.
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So I think my biggest thing, I guess, like both of us said is it's okay.
00:18:02.620
Like you can feel how you're feeling and you can experience all the range of emotions.
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The only other thing I would say is just be careful of how you react to your emotions because
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you're probably going to be really angry on one S you know, that's the process of grief
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It's going to manifest as anger and that's going to create problems.
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Your wife's probably stressed out because of the baby and nobody's sleeping the way they
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And so there's a lot of factors here that can exacerbate the problems that come with being
00:18:39.100
If you need to get out of the house for a little bit, go get a workout in, go for a walk
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You've got guys in the Iron Council, call them up, talk with them, release some of that
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stuff, that frustration in appropriate ways so they don't come out in inappropriate
00:18:58.900
I've heard you often say in my, in my words that crying is not masculine.
00:19:04.020
Can you give us some examples of when it may or may not be appropriate to cry?
00:19:08.380
I didn't, he, he's saying, I said crying is not masculine.
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He says in his words, you know, he's saying in his words, it sounds like you're saying,
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God, I'm like, I don't think I ever said crying is not masculine.
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Like we all, in fact, if anything, I, I said, we all cry.
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But he's asking when is it appropriate and when is it not?
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Like if you're trying to be a father in the moment and your kids need you to not cry
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because they need you to be strong and stoic and present and available mentally, emotionally
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so they can cry, then it's not appropriate for you to.
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If you're really upset about, for example, your mother passing away, but you're at work
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and you're sitting down with a client and you're talking with them about what you need
00:20:02.620
to address and how you're going to work on their financial portfolio, probably not appropriate
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to bawl your eyes out in front of them because you have work to do as a man.
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And so sometimes it requires you to stuff it a little bit.
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I know that's not going to be popular in modern culture, but yes, sometimes you need to stuff
00:20:20.180
it and say, hey, I'm just going to put a pin in that crying for a minute.
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Well, it's appropriate when you're alone, for sure.
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It's appropriate when there's a significant life event that crying is not going to hinder
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So for example, at your mother's funeral, I think it's completely appropriate to cry and
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feel that like nobody's expecting you to step up in some powerful way.
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Now, if you give the eulogy, probably wouldn't be wise to get up there like a blubbering idiot
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And you're not even honoring who you're giving the eulogy for.
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So that's the litmus test to me is when you have things to do.
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And also, I would also say this, what do people need from you?
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Your kids at the funeral, for example, they actually might need to see you cry.
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And sometimes they might need to see that, oh, you know what?
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I know dad cries because I've seen him cry, but he's not crying right now.
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Like when I have things to get done, I'm trying to think who else, maybe that's another question.
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Definitely people very close to you when it's appropriate.
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You see people like they'll set up their phones and they're like, I'm so lonely on Valentine's
00:22:07.760
Maybe if you're sitting down with your therapist and you're drumming up some old painful memories
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and you get emotional, that's an appropriate time.
00:22:18.220
Maybe if you're talking with a friend about real issues and you're getting, I've cried in
00:22:25.600
Kip, I may have even been emotional in front of you that way at a couple of times over the
00:22:30.980
But it's not like we were training jujitsu while I was doing it or, you know, like hanging
00:22:36.100
out with the family at the lake and I'm crying my eyes out in front of you.
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I mean, is it undermining your ability to serve those that you need to take care of?
00:23:05.140
Like sometimes it does serve our families to let them know that we're hurt, right?
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And don't be selfish in our position of looking for attention and using that as a tool for ourselves.
00:23:25.380
And so just don't undermine yourself is ultimately, I'm just saying it a different way.
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In fact, I shouldn't have said anything at all.
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Kip interjecting when he shouldn't have said anything at all.
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There's another factor I thought about, Kip, too, is this is hard to do in the moment.
00:23:58.160
If you're feeling very emotional and overwhelmed, the point to where you feel like you need to physically cry.
00:24:04.620
If it's appropriate, there might even be opportunities for you to explain that to your kids.
00:24:24.060
So I'm going to take some time for myself in the room or go on a walk and, you know, probably a little bit of crying and things like that.
00:24:32.240
When I come back, we're all going to have dinner together.
00:24:34.260
We're going to have a great evening or we're all going to go on a walk together.
00:24:36.860
But just be vocal about what you're experiencing because kids don't know how to process all of that.
00:24:45.880
So if you've never cried and all of a sudden you're crying, the kids are like, whoa.
00:24:53.960
So I think just having a little bit of mindfulness in front of people who are impacted by the way you show up would suggest that you maybe explain a little bit about what you're dealing with.
00:25:12.720
Earlier, Adam had the question around, you know, dealing with a parent that passes suddenly.
00:25:17.820
And you said it's hard to give advice in that example because it's so different and what are you dealing with.
00:25:26.960
Because if my mom passed away, the remorse and the sadness I'm going to have is different.
00:25:34.180
Because she was a different woman than Adam's mom.
00:25:41.300
And I might have regret where Adam may not and everything.
00:25:46.040
And maybe that's a little bit of advice in both these scenarios is be mindful of what is it that you're dealing with.
00:26:06.940
You know, and process the why behind some of our emotions so then that way we can grow from them.
00:26:14.660
Otherwise, you'll just be wandering around just, oh, I'm so mad and upset.
00:26:18.700
And we're not even dealing with it anyway, right?
00:26:26.860
See, I pulled out some random shiz there just to provide some value.
00:26:38.840
Why does it matter that we are called men by other men?
00:26:43.500
And once you are considered a man, can you lose that status?
00:26:50.020
I'm pulling up a quote while you're saying that.
00:26:58.040
It's a little bit different, but I'm going to give it some context.
00:27:03.880
A child that is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.
00:27:09.560
And it reminds me a little bit of initiation because if a young man, you said a man initiated, I would just change the verbiage.
00:27:20.060
If a boy is not initiated, he'll burn the village down just to feel its warmth.
00:27:28.140
He doesn't realize the impact of his decisions and his actions.
00:27:32.020
He's making short-term decisions that have long-term negative ramifications.
00:27:38.220
And so a man needs to be initiated into manhood.
00:27:41.800
And there's a little bit of a lesson I want to share here that I've spent so much time thinking about, and I wish more people understood this.
00:27:51.760
A lot of people will say masculinity is good, or some people will say masculinity is inherently bad, right?
00:28:05.620
Masculinity, by its definition, is a set of characteristics and traits that we attribute to males.
00:28:15.000
And masculinity is based on our biological hardwiring.
00:28:18.360
So if you look at men relative to women, we have a propensity for violence.
00:28:22.580
We have a propensity for competitiveness, for risk-taking, for physical violence.
00:28:29.300
Like, these are all things that men, as women can exhibit those things, but men generally are more prone to these behaviors.
00:28:37.920
But just because a man is competitive doesn't mean it's always bad.
00:28:43.940
Competition has driven innovation and life-saving technology and lifted more people out of poverty because of competition.
00:28:53.660
But also, it's caused us to do some shady shit up to murdering people because we're trying to compete over a limited amount of resources.
00:29:09.580
And so the difference between masculinity, something that's amoral, and manliness is the distinction I make.
00:29:15.800
A man is somebody who can harness their masculinity, their just God-given traits, into productive outcomes for themselves and other people.
00:29:27.720
So unless a boy learns how to harness his masculinity into something productive, he will never become a man because he's not acting manly.
00:29:53.620
The second part of the question was, why is it important that we're called men by other men?
00:30:08.140
John Eldridge in his book, Wild at Heart, makes the case that men are always asking the question, am I capable and do I have what it takes?
00:30:22.080
Because when I look and see what other people are doing with their physical health or with their business or in their family, Kip, I look up to you from a family perspective.
00:30:31.240
If I didn't have that frame of reference, I wouldn't have anything to judge my own performance on.
00:30:38.500
So I can look at you and say, well, Kip is doing awesome.
00:30:43.460
I can't have that unless you're there leading the way.
00:30:48.980
And, yeah, you can fall into comparison trap and all these other things, but that's not what I'm talking about here.
00:30:55.540
Other men are able to show us what's possible, and I want to know that I have a seat at the table.
00:31:01.260
If I value our relationship, Kip, it's important for me to show up as a friend.
00:31:07.480
It's important for me to show up to these conversations ready and prepared.
00:31:11.360
It's the respect you deserve from the relationship that we have.
00:31:15.000
So I think it's really important that you view me as a man, and I would imagine it's important that I view you as a man because now we're peers.
00:31:33.160
How much of this would you say is also the importance of establishing standards, right?
00:31:37.580
Like, you know, regardless of the masculinity question or initiation into manhood, take anything that establishes baselines and standards.
00:31:46.880
Let's use – maybe it's a little bit controversial, but let's just use college degrees as an example.
00:32:17.920
And so part of this is just the value of frameworks and standards.
00:32:21.760
So people have something that they're progressing towards, and there's value in knowing that.
00:32:27.540
There's value in knowing that you've achieved something.
00:32:30.500
Now, of course, there's false dichotomies all – or there's dichotomies all over the place, right?
00:32:35.340
You could say, well, yeah, Kip, but then if they're always chasing the belt, then you're not learning.
00:32:40.880
But there's benefits in the standards so we know where we are and are we progressing and have we reached something.
00:32:58.180
Yeah, can you lose your status once you've had it?
00:33:12.040
If somebody is – let's say somebody murders or rapes somebody else.
00:33:16.580
We take that individual out of society because he's proven he's no longer going to contribute in a manly way.
00:33:26.600
We isolate him from all the normal people and he's punished.
00:33:35.820
He can come out and we'll give him another shot depending on what the crime was.
00:33:40.340
And then he gets a chance to prove himself again.
00:33:45.000
You know, and in other ways too, Kip, again, to go back to our relationship, if you take advantage of me in some way, some egregious way, or you start talking negatively about me behind my back, then you lose your status in my eyes.
00:34:12.320
So you didn't lose some objective status, but in my eyes, yeah, absolutely you did.
00:34:19.300
So you have to be vigilant about continuing to behave in the way a man would behave.
00:34:24.780
Why do you think, and I know this question is obviously for Nathan more than you, why this question?
00:34:38.400
Like if Nathan were on the call right now, I'd say, why, Nathan?
00:34:46.780
How do I know I'm, like, this comes up all the time.
00:34:52.200
I think, I'm very, I want to be very cautious on this because I don't know what Nathan's experiencing.
00:34:57.700
But in my experience, a lot of this question comes from men who didn't have a father around.
00:35:24.200
I don't know how to change the oil on my truck.
00:35:27.240
I don't know how to do basic maintenance around the house.
00:35:33.200
So, like, all these things that we put value on as men.
00:35:38.520
Those are not just random activities that we just have deemed manly.
00:35:48.020
So, usually these questions come from guys who don't, I'm not saying they aren't.
00:35:54.620
I'm saying they don't feel manly because they haven't developed that or haven't learned that.
00:36:00.080
And they're at a stage now, whether they're 20, 25, 45, 55, where they feel like, I don't feel like a man.
00:36:09.220
What do I need to do in order to feel like a man?
00:36:24.860
I think it's also, how's this, just that, add a little.
00:36:31.900
I think most men see their value in the space of feeling respected.
00:36:41.800
In fact, I would argue that that's like what we attribute love.
00:36:50.160
And I think a lot of us are probably living lives where that's lacking.
00:36:58.500
Maybe our, we don't feel respected by our spouses or maybe even in the workplace.
00:37:04.260
And so we might even be doing quote unquote masculine things, but that, that confirmation of our value is not being fulfilled, whether it should be or not.
00:37:22.260
But nonetheless, I think it's a lack of meaning for themselves due to the lack of respect that they're getting.
00:37:31.160
I would just say, and this might go down that hole you were talking about.
00:37:36.580
And I already know the answer to that, that some people are going to say, well, yeah, you know, I am.
00:37:41.640
I'm doing all these things, but my wife still dot, dot, dot.
00:37:56.600
And if you haven't done any of those things, then sure, you could work hard and you could check all the boxes, but also setting boundaries, communicating clearly and treating people the way that you want to be treated is also a measurement of being respectable.
00:38:11.500
And that's why we get guys that double down on provide, kind of easier maybe, and they just work their asses off and provide maybe really well.
00:38:27.280
And the provide is financial, but we're not providing emotional safety.
00:38:31.340
We're not providing a home of spirituality and these other elements that aren't that easy, as simple as bringing a paycheck home.
00:38:42.720
It's easy to get into that, provide that financial provision role, but we want to be well-rounded men.
00:39:10.800
Any steps one could take to help their brothers see that they need to grow up without coming across too forceful.
00:39:17.880
I have three younger brothers and the youngest is 29.
00:39:20.760
However, they all act like they're 15 or younger and all living with our mother.
00:39:25.880
Our father died 23 years ago and told 15-year-old me that I'm the leader now.
00:39:33.600
I know it wasn't really my responsibility then.
00:39:45.340
I don't, I mean, I don't know why you feel like you failed, but based on what you shared, it doesn't sound like you failed to me.
00:39:53.020
And, and, and, you know, and dad told him, Hey, you know, step into that role.
00:39:58.140
And, and he's feeling like, you know, he failed his brothers.
00:40:02.980
You know, we've, we've answered questions like this a lot.
00:40:06.400
Like how do you get somebody to see you change someone?
00:40:12.360
And, you know, in a way, I don't know, but mom might really like having the boys around because dad's not around.
00:40:25.160
This was a while ago, clearly, but she, there's no man in the house.
00:40:32.860
So she's probably enabling them is the reality of the situation and they're taking full advantage of it.
00:40:40.220
Whether it's conscious or subconscious, we don't know and to what degree, but they're taking advantage of her enabling behavior.
00:40:47.300
So I almost wonder if the real conversation is with mom.
00:40:53.140
Now, in the meantime, but I think you should have a deep conversation with her about it.
00:40:57.600
Like multiple conversations in a respectful way because she, I guarantee she's feeling a way.
00:41:04.380
I would put money on the fact that she's enabling it because it's her safety blanket.
00:41:16.360
But in the meantime, you, you need to take, there's three other brothers.
00:41:28.140
You, you need to get them out of their circle into your circle.
00:41:34.280
That like they're, I don't know who they're spending time with.
00:41:37.120
I don't know who their friends are, but I guarantee they're losers.
00:41:41.020
Cause winners don't hang out with people like that.
00:41:43.460
And that like, you might hear that and think I'm judging.
00:41:51.380
I'm not going to spend time with the 35 year old who lives at his house with his mom,
00:41:56.020
unless he's taking care of her cause she's terminally ill.
00:42:00.800
There's an exception, but just to live there at mommy and daddy's hat.
00:42:05.660
Cause I hang out in a different circle and it sounds like he does too.
00:42:08.620
So what I would say is get them out of the environment in bite-sized doses.
00:42:13.240
Like if you go out with your friends, invite one of your brothers, maybe not all of them.
00:42:17.340
Cause they probably feed off of each other and they're all like clowns, like the three
00:42:21.100
amigos together, like get them out one at a time.
00:42:27.960
Maybe you go to the gym or Hey guys, like I'm going to go run a Spartan race.
00:42:33.240
And, and I wanted to invite you to come do the Spartan race and train with us.
00:42:36.900
The more you can get them out of their current climate into your climate and not change your
00:42:46.340
And if they decline and say, no, there's not a lot you can do, but just be open, open arms,
00:42:56.480
And hopefully they'll see that in the meantime, start having some conversations with mom.
00:43:01.840
So what will happen for a lot of people is they will do this, right?
00:43:10.980
They'll try to get some things and then we'll, and then we'll get upset.
00:43:25.140
And, and it's all because we didn't ensure that we're in a position of influence.
00:43:34.580
I, I, I, you can use this like a hundred different ways.
00:43:37.780
We can use it with your teenage kids, with coworkers, with employees.
00:43:42.160
But the question is, are you in a position to influence them?
00:43:50.140
First, your mindset around them needs to be accurate.
00:43:59.460
No one cares about what you have to say until they know how much you care.
00:44:05.800
And this is kind of, you know, you have a heart at war towards them and you're just trying to change them because you're so annoyed by them.
00:44:23.320
Two, you have to invest time and have a relationship with them.
00:44:26.540
They have to know that you are their big brother and that you genuinely care about their well-being, that you know what's going on in their life, that you understand their struggles so you have a relationship with them, your mindset's clear with them, and then you're learning from them.
00:44:46.140
And this ensures that we don't go into situations with too much ego, assuming too much.
00:44:58.820
And then what's great about that approach too is let's say your younger brother doesn't move out.
00:45:11.320
But the mindset helps make sure that you're not doing this from a place of manipulation.
00:45:16.760
And then when your expectations aren't met and it does end up being a covert contract and you're going to get all sideways because your manipulation tactics didn't work.
00:45:28.340
And I think you'll set yourself up for success regardless of what they do because the typical response that we give to these questions is you don't change people.
00:45:47.300
I just wrote down point number four is let the chips fall where they may.
00:45:52.820
Like if they don't do it it's not your responsibility.
00:45:55.240
I'm going to say something that might be upsetting but I have to say it.
00:46:00.000
Your dad did you no justice in telling you that you are the man of the house now.
00:46:13.480
And I actually commend you for wanting to be that at 15 years old and commend you I don't know how old you are now.
00:46:20.260
At the age you are now I commend you for wanting to be that.
00:46:24.480
But there's there's some things that you need to let go of and maybe afford yourself some grace that at 15 years old you didn't know how to raise men.
00:46:41.380
And so now there's an opportunity for you to do what you can do but as you should have been doing all along like these they're men.
00:46:53.080
Well and what's unfortunate we're kind of dissecting your family here but like the probability is when an older sibling is put in that type of position of quote unquote authority.
00:47:04.740
It's not going to go well anyway because your siblings are going to see you as as this person that's trying to control them.
00:47:15.600
So what do you use fear manipulation shaming use all the wrong tactics at that age because you don't know any better.
00:47:24.640
And so you might even be fighting a little bit of an uphill battle because of that with your siblings.
00:47:33.560
Good call on on on dad and an admiral for you to be like hey you know what I mean I need to serve my family.
00:47:47.100
All right Tony Behel advice to shift from a more selfish taker mindset to a giver slash service mindset.
00:47:59.860
The best way to get what you want is to help other people get what they want.
00:48:05.220
So if you're really selfish then you should help a lot of people because you're going to get everything you want.
00:48:10.880
How does he make sure that he doesn't come across like the guy that ends up having a relationship with me and I smell it a mile away and I'm like dude Tony's only hanging out with me because he's trying to get right.
00:48:23.820
And it's not genuine service and it doesn't come across genuine.
00:48:28.300
Well you have to believe what I just said is true.
00:48:33.260
Because if you actually I believe that that's the way that I view life.
00:48:37.700
And I don't there's nothing I could even do about it to not have that be the case principle like I can't help people and then not be rewarded for it.
00:48:52.900
It might happen in the micro like there might be small examples where I help somebody and they can't do anything for me.
00:49:01.140
The more people I help the greater chance I have of getting exactly what I want out of life.
00:49:08.780
Man if you want a great relationship with a woman give serve love like do everything you can and it will it will be that way.
00:49:23.900
You want a bad relationship like I had with my ex before things were done.
00:49:34.240
And with the with my girlfriend now I I love to be in service.
00:49:40.640
Now some guys will hear that and it's very frustrating.
00:49:43.120
Like oh you're being a beta you're being a cuck.
00:49:45.740
It's such a dumb immature scared way of looking at life.
00:49:51.580
Like serving other people doesn't mean you're a slave to them.
00:49:55.460
It doesn't mean that you don't have boundaries.
00:49:58.060
It just means you're choosing to honor that person because you love them and care about them.
00:50:07.120
So I think being selfish and being selfless are actually more closely aligned than we think that they are.
00:50:17.020
But you have to believe it to your question because if you don't believe it then you will use service as a manipulation tactic.
00:50:30.480
Well and you say this Ryan and I actually think you're a great example of this.
00:50:34.660
But I think an element of this you have to have an abundant mentality.
00:50:41.460
Because what will happen is you may want to give serve help and provide service to someone that you feel is a competitor to you.
00:50:53.960
And then you're not going to be your willingness to help them may be diminished because you don't think there's enough to go around.
00:51:02.000
And I think that that could be a potential blocker that you have to look past.
00:51:06.660
I mean the competitor thing is that one's kind of an easy one for me because there's really when you're looking at it this way only two types of people.
00:51:15.160
There's the people who are going to do it with or without your help and there's the people who are not going to do it with or without your help period.
00:51:26.100
Those are the only – the people who are going to do it, they don't actually need your help anyways.
00:51:30.840
They're going to do it whether you help them or not.
00:51:35.100
Because then you build goodwill among each other.
00:51:38.080
And the people who are not going to do it, you could give them the blueprint to everything and they're still not going to do it.
00:51:45.860
Now, look, I know there's industry secrets and trademarks.
00:51:50.280
I'm not saying don't protect – I have trademarks.
00:51:57.900
But also like if somebody reaches out and they're like, hey, what about this?
00:52:04.740
What else do you think might block someone from having this switch?
00:52:09.480
And let me ask this question, and I wish Tony were on the call, right?
00:52:21.580
Where might this show up the most, someone that has a taker mindset versus that of service?
00:52:27.680
Yeah, I think probably in like romantic relationships probably is one area.
00:52:45.760
But you're asking what are the barriers to being a giver?
00:52:54.680
Well, I have – like isn't that an amazing thing?
00:53:01.180
Yeah, let me finish this thought out and I want to hear what you have to say.
00:53:04.160
But doesn't it feel so amazing to give to other people?
00:53:10.500
Like when I see – like Kip, when we went to Hawaii earlier in the year, like that was a hunt that I invited you on.
00:53:38.640
Because at the risk of sounding arrogant or weird, but because I created that opportunity for you.
00:53:46.640
And – but like – but that doesn't take away anything that you – from what you did doesn't take away anything from what I did.
00:53:57.220
And I think about that even with clients, you know, when people have these mental blocks around money and exchange of value.
00:54:04.700
Man, when I have a client, whether it's somebody who joins the Iron Council or comes to one of our events or a client when I was doing my financial planning stuff and they paid me and I saw them win, I was like, this is amazing.
00:54:19.700
I see them building their family life or building their business.
00:54:24.860
It's a reciprocal relationship that's good for everybody.
00:54:28.640
And that's the kind of relationships I'm interested in.
00:54:34.120
I wonder if how much of this is from a relationship perspective.
00:54:38.380
I think some guys might have the mindset of receiving first before giving because it – maybe they add meaning that it would – that it's more genuine if – like if I get in return because I had to give first, then it diminishes the giving to me.
00:55:01.440
To me, that sounds like a feminine thought where it's almost like the idea of like, well, he should just know.
00:55:12.900
No, but I'm just – I'm trying to think of the scenarios by which –
00:55:17.820
Like that or maybe even in the work environment.
00:55:20.320
Like here's – I bet this could be relatable to some people is where we're worried about how we show up in the org and our ego and our importance and that's the priority over helping someone else win.
00:55:38.300
And if that's the case, then I would say people all know you anyway.
00:55:45.460
Like you're not – like the perspective or the perception of me as an individual in the workplace is exactly what it is.
00:55:55.040
If I help more people win, trust me, it's going to be perceived more positive than negative than me winning and other people not winning.
00:56:13.680
There's a scripture – sorry, I'm trying to pull it up.
00:56:19.220
So I'm not going to – I'm not going to pull it up, but it's in – it's in Matthew it looks like.
00:56:23.220
And I'm paraphrasing, but the scripture is, by their fruits he shall know thee.
00:56:29.920
And so if you want to know if a person is good, just look at the fruit.
00:56:43.360
Well, that's a good human being right there versus somebody who's isolated, alone, maybe perpetually broke, maybe takes advantage of other people.
00:56:54.320
That's probably a pretty good indicator that something's wrong with the tree.
00:57:02.700
But if you want to know somebody – look, in a work environment where you're talking about this thing of posturing and getting mine and that sort of thing, you're going to be found out regardless of who you are.
00:57:16.460
If you're a scumbag piece of shit, we all know it.
00:57:21.160
And if you're a decent, kind, helping, abundant human being, everybody in the office knows it, including your supervisors.
00:57:29.760
And there's nothing you need to do about it over time.
00:57:53.960
Apparently, I'm not up to speed on the latest of Mr. Mickler.
00:58:00.940
But I – well, I – I'm thinking about what it would look like to be politically involved at a local level.
00:58:12.940
And that's about as much as I really have thought about it.
00:58:18.860
I need – yeah, I just – I need to know what's going on with the community.
00:58:22.040
I need to be more involved in the community in a powerful way.
00:58:29.340
I don't know if that's getting involved with the school board or sitting on city council.
00:58:34.880
And so this is just for me an exploratory meeting to see what that might look like and what I should consider.
00:58:45.260
We have a couple more questions if you wanted or do you want to wrap up there?
00:59:01.120
So we can go with why do men suck at sharing knowledge or we can go with what do you do
00:59:09.600
when you set goals and plan for yourself because I have a hard time focusing.
00:59:15.220
I think we've answered the hard time focusing one enough.
00:59:20.120
I don't think that we've answered the why do men suck at sharing one.
00:59:36.680
Like we don't, we're so selfish and self-centered.
00:59:39.740
Like we just do our thing and we're like, oh, wait, what?
00:59:44.680
So we're just completely clueless of what's going on.
00:59:52.280
Another reason that somebody might not share their knowledge is because if somebody else
00:59:56.200
knows it, then they're perceived as less valuable.
01:00:01.600
I mean, if you, if you, if you're the only one in the office who knows how to do that
01:00:07.600
And what I would say to that, to go back to our previous question is share the knowledge,
01:00:16.500
And this is probably why a lot of guys don't do it.
01:00:19.160
You have to continue to reinvent yourself because if you learn a new skill and you're the only
01:00:25.420
one in the office that knows it, so you're not going to share it with other people, then
01:00:28.420
there's no reason for you to reinvent yourself.
01:00:31.300
And there's no reason to promote you either into another position.
01:00:38.460
But if I start sharing and teaching other people, my knowledge, then I'm going to have
01:00:46.780
Otherwise I might not be as valuable as I once was.
01:00:53.200
Kip, if I can teach you to do something that I'm previously doing, then that frees me up
01:00:57.020
to your point to go do something maybe better, but I'm going to have to exert myself to do
01:01:02.360
So I think a lot of it just comes down to cluelessness.
01:01:05.000
And I think the other part of it is just ego, pride, and arrogance.
01:01:10.320
And the only thing I'd add to, I think most people don't know how to teach and coach very
01:01:21.460
So this could be an element of this where it's like, well, I share my knowledge with them.
01:01:25.960
You're like, yeah, but no one understood what you're saying.
01:01:36.560
More and more, I get into learning and development.
01:01:39.760
People have no idea how humans retain information and learn.
01:01:46.860
And we all grab what we've done throughout our entire lives, and we go, well, when I was
01:01:53.340
a kid and I quote unquote learned, people spoke at me and I sat in a chair.
01:01:58.780
So I'm just going to regurgitate that same thing, and I'm going to preach at people, and
01:02:04.880
And it's, of course, not an effective way of teaching anybody anything.
01:02:08.920
But regardless, I think we just, out of ignorance of how do you share effectively, I don't think
01:02:16.360
You know, to your point, one area of life I see this play out really frequently, jujitsu.
01:02:24.660
There are some incredible tacticianers, and I won't name any names, but they are incredible
01:02:31.720
at their skill, and their skill is not translatable to other people.
01:02:36.160
They're horrible, like their tone of voice, the way they explain things, their mannerisms.
01:02:44.560
I'm like, how are you so amazing at this, and so horrible at showing other people how
01:02:54.900
I look at the difference between a talent and a skill.
01:03:01.980
And a skill is something that you develop, so it's probably a little bit of nature and
01:03:07.220
So if you're, if everybody should learn how to teach, because that's what we do as human
01:03:21.600
So if you can't, if you can't coach and teach something to someone, then you, you can't impact
01:03:31.300
I mean, you can look, you can look at people who share similar things, like take somebody
01:03:35.800
like Jordan Peterson, who shares really valuable information.
01:03:40.460
The, the way he teaches doesn't totally resonate with me, but it's, you can't argue he resonates
01:03:48.700
And then you could take somebody who shares very similar information, but maybe they share
01:03:56.200
The knowledge is great on both sides of the, how many professors have an endless amount
01:04:01.160
of wisdom and knowledge and aren't sharing it like Jordan Peterson is.
01:04:07.900
Cause he has a bigger impact than the guy who has just as much knowledge, but hasn't learned
01:04:13.720
how to share it with people in a resonating way.
01:04:19.520
Well, it's awesome because then it means you just need to do a better job.
01:04:23.960
You need to learn what you need to learn in order to impact and reach more people.
01:04:34.740
I love, that's why I love him so much as a, as a author and a thought leaders is really,
01:04:41.260
he's tackling that conversation of how do I, how do we get data and knowledge retained,
01:04:53.860
And of course he's been on the podcast a number of times and a really good stuff that he has.
01:05:02.000
So a couple items, um, of course, if you want to learn more about the iron council, you can
01:05:06.740
go to order man.com slash iron council and sign up.
01:05:09.220
We're not open for enrollment, but you can sign up for newsletters, stay informed.
01:05:14.000
Um, maybe an update from you, sir, on, on the, um, divorce, not death.
01:05:22.820
Um, we don't open until October 1st, but if you go to divorce, not death, this is for
01:05:31.600
So newly divorced, going through the divorce, um, what to expect, how to navigate it from
01:05:36.540
financial to legal ramifications to the rights that you have as a father, um, to, uh, maybe
01:05:43.380
on the tail end to going back into the dating pool to co-parenting anything and everything
01:05:52.400
I'm going through it, you know, fairly early myself, but we're bringing in experts from
01:05:56.940
all of these different areas and realms to teach those of us who have gone through divorces
01:06:01.480
or in the early stages of a divorce, how to navigate it most effectively.
01:06:06.260
Kip, you know, I know millions of other men know it's a very, very dark time.
01:06:10.920
Uh, and it doesn't have to be as long as it is for a lot of guys because they don't
01:06:23.300
And then you can connect with Ryan on X and Instagram at Ryan Mickler.
01:06:31.960
Hopefully we gave you something to chew on, go out there, take action and become the man
01:06:40.020
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.
01:06:42.900
You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
01:06:46.700
We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.