Order of Man - MATT BEAUDREAU ｜ How the System is Failing Men

00:00:00.000 So choose a metric regarding health, wealth, and fulfillment of men. And guys, it's easy to see

00:00:05.520 that men are either falling drastically behind our female counterparts or at a minimum on a

00:00:11.980 downward spiral. Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think it's a contest between the sexes that would 0.78

00:00:17.120 suggest that it's a zero-sum game. It's not, but it is a glimpse into modern man's gradual decline

00:00:22.620 in his ability to protect, provide, and preside in his life and the lives of those he cares about.

00:00:28.280 Matt Boudreau joins me on the podcast today to talk about why this is the case and how our steady

00:00:33.680 decline starts at a young age inside the halls of academia. We talk about Trump's desire to shut

00:00:40.600 down the Department of Education. Obviously, that's very controversial. How government and

00:00:45.600 academia have distracted us from true learning. Why you'll never find your purpose. You have to

00:00:51.640 forge it. Living a life by design, not default, and the importance of your hero's journey.

00:00:58.280 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart

00:01:03.600 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You

00:01:09.180 are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is

00:01:15.680 who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and

00:01:20.720 done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:26.180 Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for listening,

00:01:30.680 whether you've been here for a minute, an hour, a month, a year, or even 10 years. Next month,

00:01:38.640 we mark our 10-year anniversary, March 15th, in fact, of the Order of Man movement and mission,

00:01:45.980 and I want to thank you for being here. Obviously, on this podcast, it's my goal to bring you great

00:01:50.240 conversations with very successful men and women in the world of academia, in the world

00:01:56.980 of entertainment and media, and athletes and scholars and warriors and New York Times bestselling

00:02:05.860 authors, scientists, you name it. We've got them here on this podcast, and today is no different.

00:02:10.960 Before I get into that, I want to mention that we've got our big event coming up in May, May 1st,

00:02:15.740 through the 4th, and I've partnered with some incredible men. Matt Boudreau is one of them

00:02:19.760 to bring an experience to you unlike you've ever had before. Not only are you going to have

00:02:25.580 conversations and insight from leading authorities on everywhere from pornography and overcoming that

00:02:33.300 to fitness, to building wealth, to thriving, succeeding, overcoming being a nice guy with Dr.

00:02:39.320 Robert Glover. It's a powerhouse lineup of men that we have there. So if you're interested in

00:02:44.720 banding with us and coming out to that event, May 1st through the 4th of this year, go to

00:02:48.880 themensforge.com. That's themensforge.com. We'll talk a little bit more about it later.

00:02:54.560 For now, I want to introduce you to my guest. Again, his name is Matt Boudreau. He is a former

00:02:59.340 public school teacher. He's been an administrator and professor at Stanford University, and he is a

00:03:05.620 well-known, world-renowned keynote speaker with clients that range from Lockheed Martin,

00:03:11.280 Caterpillar, Honeywell, the Air Force. Those are just to name a few. He has made it his life's

00:03:16.740 mission to find very powerful and alternative education opportunities for our young men and

00:03:22.340 women. He has partnered with Tim Kennedy, a former guest as well, many of you know, and

00:03:28.860 he is working on these young men's mentoring programs. He's also the founder of Apogee Strong,

00:03:34.620 which is both an online and physical education program. They've got dozens and dozens of new

00:03:39.740 campuses opening up all around the country this year, and I believe that his programs,

00:03:43.880 his systems, and his tools of education will quite literally change the landscape in the way that we

00:03:49.920 educate our young men. I think one of my biggest questions that I have for you, since you've been

00:03:57.040 an educator in the public sector and private sector, is some of your thoughts around Trump's alluding to

00:04:04.180 the idea of dismantling and disbanding the Department of Education.

00:04:08.320 Yeah, man. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't excited about that. And also, it's also cautiously

00:04:17.220 optimistic, too. I'm very openly not somebody who dives too deep into the public arena. I've got

00:04:23.580 one, you know, somebody who I would say is a good friend who's in politics, and she and I never talk

00:04:28.140 politics, right? We just talk family. We talk education.

00:04:31.500 Is that Tulsi Gabbard, or is that somebody else?

00:04:33.520 It's Tulsi, yeah. I only said that because I saw your post a few seconds before we jumped on.

00:04:38.640 Oh, did you? Nice, dude. Yeah. So she's rad, and it's just, we just talk humanity, man. And so

00:04:43.340 she's my favorite politician, you know, therein. So Tim's a little more connected in that world,

00:04:49.200 and then has more of those conversations, and that's great. The Department of Education, man,

00:04:53.040 this is, it has nothing to do with, it's never had anything to do with education. By any objective

00:04:59.520 measure, we've gone, we've gone downhill since the inception of this in 1979, right? So I'm not

00:05:05.600 one of those guys that gets worried about this being gone and control going back to the states,

00:05:09.960 and oh my gosh, because the red herring becomes, okay, well, what about funding for kids with special,

00:05:15.600 you know, special needs, or what about all, it's always a funding, funding, funding. Dude,

00:05:19.500 funding is never the answer. So I'm glad that control can go back to the states.

00:05:23.540 I'm also realistic and saying, okay, well, what is that? What does that mean? Because the control,

00:05:30.180 ultimately, if it's not in the family's hands, then, and if there's strings attached for what

00:05:35.000 they can do to get this money, or, you know, ESA money, or what the school, then, then that's going

00:05:40.900 to be, you know, that's going to suck too. So I'm glad. I mean, the reality is, if it goes all to

00:05:46.840 the states, the blue states are going to fall behind, and the red states are going to excel. I mean,

00:05:50.900 that's, I can't put it any more simply. I know it's going to offend some people who are listening,

00:05:55.400 but based on what I'm seeing, and I don't have the data, but what I'm seeing is the blue states

00:06:01.740 are going to fall behind like they always do, and the red states are going to excel.

00:06:04.880 And, and you got the, you know, you got your union, that's the, that's like your department

00:06:08.520 of education, but then you still have your union stuff. You still have what's going on for teacher

00:06:12.800 education at the college level that is still going to play into all of this stuff, red states or blue

00:06:18.160 states, right? So this in and of itself, I'm glad to see it, but it is not the answer to everything.

00:06:23.180 It's not going to be the end all be all everything. And it always begs the question, well, what are we

00:06:28.100 deeming as successful anyways? What does success mean? The red states do better at what? What are we, 0.81

00:06:34.920 what definition, Socrates says, beginning wisdom, definition of terms, right? Is the definition of

00:06:39.220 terms that we're going after a turnaround and an increase in academic performance on specific tests?

00:06:46.940 because there's some, I can tell you what I think it is, but yeah, it's, it's a, it's an increase in

00:06:55.160 GDP. And that's, that's how, that's how I would measure it. You know, if, you know, you can look

00:07:03.120 at a state and say, okay, well these, this amount of people have bachelors or doctorates or whatever

00:07:09.240 it might be. And that's good and fine and wonderful. But at the end of the day, which states,

00:07:13.960 and we're only talking about it from an economic standpoint, not a family standpoint, not a

00:07:18.240 spiritual standpoint, I'm isolating to the economic factor. We just look at what states

00:07:24.020 are the most economically productive. And those are the individuals who are succeeding.

00:07:30.360 I agree. And that's never, those are never the metrics that we're using to measure the,

00:07:34.640 the, right, the output for the schools. And that's one of the biggest, that's why I don't get too far

00:07:39.360 into the weeds on that. So, cause what we're measuring is how do they do on specific standardized

00:07:43.460 scores? How do they do on specific academic? Cool. If that translated into what you're talking

00:07:48.620 about one-to-one, great. Then I'd be all for it. It doesn't, it doesn't. That's a more multifaceted

00:07:54.640 conversation. That's why the men and the women conversation is so important. The parental

00:07:57.860 conversations are so important. The, what we're talking about with men pouring into other men and

00:08:01.960 having them at like, that's why all of these things are so important. Cause that's also a factor

00:08:06.340 that we aren't, we aren't measuring. So I'm glad it's going away. And also we'll see.

00:08:12.220 I don't think it's going away, but I do appreciate the, uh, the push for it, the vigor when it comes

00:08:18.140 to it, because it's at least a conversation that needs to be had. I think the other conversation

00:08:21.740 that needs to be had is social security and Medicare. I don't think they're going away anytime

00:08:25.540 soon, but can we start talking about this like serious adults, instead of listening to these

00:08:29.360 grandmas and grandpas complain about why their benefits that we're paying for use their benefits 0.96

00:08:35.980 loosely that we're paying for should be a given, but that might be a different conversation.

00:08:41.300 You did say something interesting though. You said the men and women conversation. What I,

00:08:46.340 what did you mean by that?

00:08:47.700 So we don't, you know, there, there's so many, so many factors to, to success, defining what success

00:08:53.540 means in the first place for an individual, for a state, for the country, what does success mean in

00:08:57.760 the first place? And we, we, when we start talking about education, we've, we never mention

00:09:04.420 the men and the women who are involved in this, the parents who are involved in this, the fact

00:09:09.220 that education doesn't stop at fricking 18. And so we just go education is a, is a five-year-old

00:09:14.720 through 18 year old problem, or maybe we add college into it. No, this is a full, uh, it's a

00:09:21.080 full family affair. We don't take that into account. And it's so important that we do. It's that.

00:09:26.800 Well, one of the things that you often hear, and I'm sure you've heard this retort all the time is

00:09:33.060 everything you're doing is great and wonderful, but what about the kids who don't have mom and

00:09:38.720 dad at home? And, and dad specifically, I think it's probably more prevalent than mom, not being

00:09:45.320 at home. So what, what do we do about it? Because you're right. A nuclear family, given all the data,

00:09:53.800 given all the information, a nuclear family, which I'm not part of currently, but a nuclear family

00:10:00.260 with biological mother, biological father at home with the children, regardless if it's public school

00:10:05.780 or private school or a combination or a co-opt or monastery or whatever is always going to excel

00:10:12.620 relative to a child who might be without mom and or dad in their lives. We just know that

00:10:19.080 that that's a fact. Yep. But what about those kids who don't have the nuclear family dynamic?

00:10:26.420 Right. And it's a, and it's a valid question where I get concerned is that the, uh, like the

00:10:32.700 underlying tone, usually when somebody asks that the underlying tone is that we should design

00:10:37.780 everything around them versus keep everything optimized and go, right. It's like the, um,

00:10:44.360 it's like the sexual assault and should abortion be legal and should abort. Well, what about the 0.94

00:10:49.500 people who, what about incest? What about rape? What about, we take them, we take a minority,

00:10:53.780 we take a real thing that needs to be addressed and we go, that's going to go ahead and set the

00:10:57.660 standard for everything else. Right. And so we do the same thing with education too. What about the

00:11:01.740 kids that don't have access to it? So then don't we just keep everything at the lowest common

00:11:05.400 denominator? No, we do not. We still raise the bar. We still, whoever we can focus on that has the

00:11:12.260 opportunity to raise the bar. We still allow that. And we go, okay, how do we help these? How do we

00:11:18.540 help these people too? Cause we are talking about more of an education issue. So yeah, that accessibility

00:11:22.520 to those things matters, man. And I'm not going to pretend I have all the answers. I can tell you

00:11:27.200 what we're trying to do to make that more accessible, but that is a giant multifaceted thing.

00:11:33.560 And is that, is that a, is that a government's responsibility to pick those people up? What do you

00:11:39.460 think on that? No, the answer is no. Unequivocally. I don't think so. I mean, that's, that's the

00:11:47.200 reality of it. It's unfortunate, but I, I mean, I see the, I see the argument for it. Same.

00:11:57.240 But the reality is, is that it's not the government's responsibility. And I think what ended up

00:12:01.900 happening throughout the course of our country's existence is that we poured more and more and

00:12:08.260 handed more and more over to the government where, uh, communities, families, and social

00:12:14.880 institutions took over. But when you do away with church and you do away with the community

00:12:20.720 and you break down the nuclear family, then of course, big daddy government is there to rescue 0.58

00:12:27.640 you. You bet. Right. And so what are we going to do? We're going to pour more funding because

00:12:31.760 funding is always going back to where we started to like, it's more funding. Oh, we got to make

00:12:35.780 sure we have funding for it. No, it's not funding these systems. It is ultimately funding. If,

00:12:42.020 if funding is a part of it, that needs to go to the families as much as possible. Right. And I'm

00:12:46.280 always a fan of government staying out of anything. So on our side, part of what we do is we've got our

00:12:51.340 specific foundations so that we can route some of that money, if we can, to families who wouldn't

00:12:56.900 be able to afford that kind of experience. And we can provide mentors to those young people

00:13:01.700 who don't have the father there. And we're not going to be able to save the world with our efforts

00:13:07.700 in that. But if we got more and more people that are doing that, we can still stay on this course of

00:13:11.960 creating what we want to create and trying to bring as many people along with us. To me, that's the best

00:13:16.760 that it's the best we're going to do. Do you believe I'm just, I'm trying to think about it from a

00:13:23.560 critic standpoint, do you believe that there's enough charity in this world? And I'm not just

00:13:30.820 talking about financial contributions. I'm talking about just being charitable, being, being

00:13:35.700 liberal with your resources. If I, if I can say that, you know, if I can use that term, but

00:13:42.120 right. Time, money, expertise, knowledge, know how, um, introductions to other connections,

00:13:49.180 like all the things that you and I just naturally do. Do you believe that there's enough

00:13:54.580 that would actually sustain that? Or is it a requirement that big daddy government comes in 1.00

00:14:02.220 and all but obligates or forces us to contribute to these initiatives?

00:14:08.960 A really good question, man. If I'm looking at, you know, based on, based on, uh,

00:14:15.400 N equals one and kind of here and, and personal observations and, and anecdotes. And I do believe

00:14:22.040 that is the default setting of humanity, but I believe we've got a few things working against

00:14:27.220 us. I believe we've got distractions where even good people who would normally be charitable

00:14:32.520 get so caught up in, in being entertained or being distracted in other ways that, that,

00:14:38.680 you know, they, they are able to mask that default setting of wanting to go out and serve.

00:14:43.440 I think there is the, uh, now cultural acquiescence where we assume this is now the government's job

00:14:52.020 to take this on. Just like we assume it is the government's job to educate our kids. 0.93

00:14:57.900 And so we've been trained, I think, societally to, to hand those things off where I do think

00:15:03.900 that's a natural state, man. I do think, and I saw that, man, I live out here in, in, you know,

00:15:10.120 near Asheville, North Carolina. I don't know if anybody heard, but there was a tiny bit of a

00:15:14.780 hurricane that took place this year. That was gnarly. And it wiped out a lot of things for a

00:15:20.640 lot of people. And it took out a whole lot of human beings. And what I saw was nothing but amazing

00:15:27.500 people, not talking anything about politics, not talking about anything about their favorite

00:15:32.780 sports teams. It was like, Hey, how do we band together and provide any resources that we have,

00:15:37.860 whether it's time, effort, food, money, how do we help? And when I reached out to, you know,

00:15:44.540 just even on social media, man, within a matter of days, we'd raised a hundred grand that we were

00:15:48.580 able to disseminate out here and bring supplies, man. I saw the goodness come out so quick because

00:15:54.720 everybody forgot about, well, it's the government's job. It's like, no, no, we just need to do this.

00:15:58.500 So that sense of urgency, I think when it's there in our face, we're willing to get away from those

00:16:03.820 distractions and actually go do what matters. I do think that's the default.

00:16:07.860 It's just not what's most prevalent.

00:16:12.380 I'm, I'm, I'm wrestling with this a little bit because I, I disagree that it's our default.

00:16:17.420 What do you think?

00:16:18.400 I don't, I think our default is greed, envy, jealousy, slothfulness, laziness, lust.

00:16:28.140 I think that's our default, but there's something compelling about rallying around as a community

00:16:33.540 that I think we're missing in modern times. Our default is fallen. If we're to look at the,

00:16:39.860 the biblical references, our default is that we're fallen and we're broken and we're sinful

00:16:43.780 and prideful and everything else that comes with it. But there's gotta be some other compelling

00:16:48.800 reason. Right. To overcome what I call the natural man.

00:16:54.200 Okay. And so what is that then? What is the thing that gets us to overcome that nature? Is it just

00:16:58.860 purpose in general? Is it because I think unpacking this is, is it matters, right? Because what I saw

00:17:05.000 out here, and again, I'll speak just for a minute. I don't have, I got no statistics to give you on this,

00:17:10.460 but what I saw out here being in the midst of this, this storm is I saw a lot of people come out to

00:17:17.300 this, literally coming out to the streets going, cool, man. Do you know of somebody that needs

00:17:21.900 something? Like, let's go, let's get after it. Let's hand. I did not see the default of greed and I

00:17:29.600 did not see loot. It's looting and things like that have probably, but that was not the overwhelming

00:17:34.460 majority of what I saw. I saw the opposite. Right. And so, and again, I'm not disagree. I get what

00:17:40.300 you're saying as far as that default nature, but what is the thing? Does it need to be a crisis?

00:17:45.120 Does it need to be a bigger purpose that everybody can rally around? Is it the, you know, September

00:17:50.240 12th, 2001 effect of like, now we've got something to rally around. What is that? Because if that's

00:17:55.740 the case, cool. Sounds good. How do we, how do we impact that kind of movement in our community as

00:18:02.940 men, if we want to lead, how do we get people to rally around something like that to change maybe

00:18:08.920 that default nature and have it? Like, I think that's a question worth asking.

00:18:14.700 I think what it is, is relatability. I think, well, what I, what I mean is if, if, okay, let me give

00:18:24.260 an example. It's kind of a morbid example, but I think it's just a good thought exercise.

00:18:28.620 There's two burning buildings that are identical, two burning buildings. And I'm standing equal

00:18:34.040 distance from one to the other. And again, this is where it's a little bit morbid, but inside of

00:18:40.300 building a, my child is inside and inside of building B, your child is inside and I'm the only

00:18:51.140 one there. I'm sorry, Matt, I'm going to building a, as you should, just like I would expect you to go

00:18:57.860 to building B. You bet. And so when I talk about relatability, I think this is what I'm talking

00:19:03.720 about when it comes down to the social dismantling of these institutions that binded us together

00:19:08.820 in struggle. We see ourselves in the position of the other people because we've been there before,

00:19:17.240 but we're so disconnected through these little devices and technology and all the things that

00:19:24.000 have the opportunity to connect us. Unlike we've ever been, but we don't relate with people, man.

00:19:29.860 We don't relate like we used to, you know, if my neighbor a hundred years ago needed to raise a

00:19:34.540 barn, me and 20, 30, 40, a hundred other men would have got together to raise a barn because next week,

00:19:41.140 guess whose barn's getting raised? Mine. That's right. Shared interest. Yeah. Relatability.

00:19:46.500 Yeah. I like that. Um, do you think it's more important for us to have

00:19:51.160 uh, an increase like right now where we are an increase in shared opportunities for relatability,

00:20:00.880 or is it more impactful for us to take out the distractions and things that really drive us away

00:20:08.720 from that? Right. And this is where the Socratic part of my mind goes and the educator part of my

00:20:13.160 mind goes is like, cool. I like that. And so which is more important? The, the elimination of the

00:20:19.520 distraction that takes us away from it or the increased focus on creating opportunities for

00:20:25.860 that relatability? I think the latter. Yeah. The increased focus. Yeah. I think if the increased

00:20:33.760 focus goes on the relatability, whether it's a men's church congregation in your local community

00:20:39.240 or a boys and girls type club or a YMCA or an Apogee Academy or, you know, fill in the blank,

00:20:46.980 I think, or even just coaching your kid's t-ball team. Yeah. Yeah. I think the distractions take

00:20:55.300 care of themselves. Right. Agreed. And so coming back full circle to that, you know, Hey, what do we

00:21:01.140 do about the, what do we do about those kids who don't have the father figure there? Don't have the

00:21:07.220 same educational opportunities. Don't have, I get it, man. That is tough. And there is a tendency to

00:21:13.120 frame those things in a way where it's like, you leave everything else to the side to go over here to

00:21:16.880 rescue. I wonder if the answer is not continuing to have more and more people who create and create.

00:21:23.200 I want to see as many Apogee campuses. I want to see as many Montessori's. I want to see as many

00:21:27.060 for like, you name it. I don't care if it doesn't have to be just be us. I want to see so much

00:21:31.240 creation going on that inherently we start sweeping up those that are, that are theoretically getting

00:21:38.200 left behind. And I agree. I think it's that focus on creation, man. Um, so again, department of

00:21:44.360 education or not eliminate it. Don't go, I don't care. Let's go create more good opportunities.

00:21:50.440 When you say create again, to go back to what you were saying earlier about defining terms,

00:21:55.400 create is one of those catch-alls like, like a lot of terms are what specifically do you mean when you

00:22:01.220 say create? Yeah. Um, it is opportunities for, for community, right? So you run order of man

00:22:07.140 and I've got, you know, the Apogee program and we've got men there and then we've got, you know,

00:22:12.080 Larry's our, our buddy's got the dad edge and Connor's got met. Like that's it. It is,

00:22:17.140 it is providing leading in a way that provides opportunities for somebody for, for a group of

00:22:22.700 people to come together around a common interest, a common value, not always common perspectives,

00:22:27.820 but common interests and common values on that. And I think the more we do that in more arenas

00:22:33.280 from, you know, all these broken systems we're talking about, you know, education, government's got

00:22:39.040 it. They don't have any, that it is this one way right here. Here we go. Medical, you know,

00:22:45.800 the medical system. And is this one way, here we go. We need more and more outliers that are going to

00:22:49.780 go, no, I'm going to create a different alternative and I'm going to give people options. We talk about

00:22:54.140 choice in a lot of times what ends up happening is, is choice isn't even a, uh, it's just default.

00:23:01.440 Like we don't actually make a choice. We're not actually given different options. And so to,

00:23:06.320 to break these systems, I think that's what we need is more and more of these opportunities

00:23:10.020 to choose something else because somebody else has provided another viable path.

00:23:18.100 Are you familiar with, um, he goes by King Randall on Twitter and some of these other social media

00:23:24.380 channels. Not that I, not that I can, yeah, no, I should make an introduction. I mean, he is doing,

00:23:30.740 yeah, I believe, I think he's in, I want to say Texas, but I could be wrong on that. So don't quote

00:23:36.620 me on that, but he was on the podcast years and years ago and he's creating, um, an environment of

00:23:43.780 learning in a format other than what we would call traditional and primarily for young black men. Uh, 0.73

00:23:50.300 and, and I, when you were talking about creating opportunities, he's fairly young himself, but

00:23:55.280 he's not only doing the educational piece, but there's real world skills that he's teaching

00:24:01.640 these young men as well. Like changing the tire on a car or changing the oil or basic electrical and

00:24:07.580 plumbing. Um, when, when you said creating opportunities, he was a person that immediately

00:24:13.420 came to mind for me. He's somebody who's creating opportunities. Another one is, um, Jason Wilson,

00:24:18.920 who has been a friend over the past couple of years. Yeah, man, you watch his videos and he's

00:24:26.180 talking with these young boys about their, their struggles, but he's doing it through the lens of

00:24:31.100 martial arts, like which you and I are obviously fans of. And Jason is as well. These are the men

00:24:36.620 who are creating opportunities outside of our traditional public schooling system.

00:24:41.040 Bingo. And there's so many of those. And it gives us a chance. What I love about that too,

00:24:45.880 is it gives us a chance, gives everybody a chance to redefine what learning means. Again,

00:24:50.500 that whole, when I said the men and the women problem, we've got this weird cultural thing 0.94

00:24:54.160 where we think, okay, well I'm done with school. So we almost equate that to I'm done learning.

00:24:58.720 And you and I both know that that's not anywhere near correct. And our lives have been crazy and rich

00:25:05.360 because we do still connect in so many areas and we do seek to grow. And we do look from other men

00:25:10.520 that are, that are mentors to us in various arenas. Right. And then we go ahead and hand that off in

00:25:15.340 return. And that, that, like, that's what growth is. And that gives us an opportunity to have that

00:25:20.520 conversation on a broader scale. Like that's it, dude. It doesn't stop. And those guys show,

00:25:26.020 they show that they give people those, those other opportunities. And it's easier for us to find those

00:25:30.860 parallels then and go, Hey mom and dad, look, there's opportunities for you too. So I, yeah,

00:25:35.100 I love anybody that is creating an environment like that. Um, I'm all for it, man. That's not a

00:25:40.460 competition thing in my head. It's stupid. It's collaborative. It's collaborative. It's helpful 1.00

00:25:45.560 to everybody. Yeah. It's helpful to everybody, man. It really is. You've got me, um, you've got

00:25:51.120 me thinking I I'm actually in the market right now for some space in my local town to put some mats in

00:25:57.560 for jujitsu, um, have a podcast studio there, have my gym equipment there, and then also have a small

00:26:03.220 archery range. So like my sweet, my escape, my man cave. But I also thought over the past several

00:26:09.140 months, like it'd be cool if I could just get some buddies together and we do this underground

00:26:12.560 fight club thing where, you know, you pitch in 20 bucks a month just to help with some of the cost

00:26:17.060 and cleaning and overhead or whatever. And then we just go beat the shit out of each other every day.

00:26:21.680 But I've never, I've actually never thought about this until this conversation,

00:26:26.760 it would actually be cool to bring in young men, maybe from the ages of, of seven or eight up to 18,

00:26:35.700 you know, that 10 years of their lives, where if they come from a household that has mom and dad,

00:26:42.000 they pay a minimal fee just to cover some of the expenses. But if they come from, and this is the

00:26:46.680 idea I just had, as you said this, if they, if it's a single mother, tuition's covered. We don't charge

00:26:55.040 single mothers because I think one of the things that single mothers deal with is of boys in particular 0.84

00:27:02.080 is they know their boys. They know that they're different. They know they don't have all of the

00:27:07.180 tools they need to raise these boys completely into fine young men, but they don't have anywhere

00:27:12.280 to go, man. They don't have any resources to turn to zero. That's right. That's right. It's a

00:27:17.400 conversation I have all the time, man. That's one of the most common, uh, outside of anything

00:27:22.220 specifically labeled education. It's maybe the most common question that I get is in DMs and things

00:27:29.100 that is from single moms going that, you know, saying that very thing. I don't know. I don't 0.96

00:27:33.380 have, my husband's not here. I don't have a brother like this. My son doesn't have an uncle

00:27:37.560 local. That's it. So I'm always asking about those very things. Cool. Where are you? What kind of

00:27:42.400 coaches do you have around you? Right. If you don't have a church connection, you don't have an

00:27:46.280 uncle, you don't have a, what kind of martial arts gyms do you have around? What kind of gyms,

00:27:49.960 what kind of coaches, what kind of sports, what kind of opportunities to get good men around him?

00:27:55.100 And those are, um, the kinds of families that, you know, our foundation we've sponsored,

00:28:01.320 I don't know, 10, 15, probably young men to go through squire program at various points,

00:28:09.460 both out in LA with B or out here in North Carolina at Kuma Latos is, you know, when he

00:28:14.740 runs them, um, we, we've sponsored 10 to 15 young men. And that's been the thing is like,

00:28:20.260 they're coming out of these homes and we're getting other men to come in and act as their 0.94

00:28:23.600 proxy, uh, cause they're coming from these single mom homes. Um, and so we all, that's 1.00

00:28:28.660 one of the ways we spend our money is, is getting those guys there and connected, man. It's so,

00:28:33.780 it's so important. Something like that would, would be fricking phenomenal, man.

00:28:38.200 I'm going to step away from that conversation very quickly. Uh, I was talking about, uh, something,

00:28:43.760 a concept with my team for our spring event last week. And we started talking about the concept

00:28:49.420 that, that boys are born and men are forged yet much of society. And maybe even some of you

00:28:55.680 listening believe that being a man is simply a birthright being a male is, but being a man requires

00:29:01.660 more. And that's why we're hosting this experience on May 1st through the 4th, 2025, because we believe

00:29:07.320 that the only way to live up to your true measure or potential as a man is twofold to be around other

00:29:12.980 men and to learn the systems other men have used to make themselves a success in the bedroom, the

00:29:18.380 living room and the boardroom. Now guys, tickets are selling fast and we want you to be one of the

00:29:23.560 elite 200 men who are going to host this inauguration experience just outside of St. Louis. And if you're

00:29:30.500 ready to forge yourself into the man you have a desire to be, then join us at themensforge.com.

00:29:37.280 That's themensforge.com. Do that right after the show, because those tickets are going to go fast.

00:29:43.240 For now, let me get back to it with Matt.

00:29:47.260 That's education, by the way.

00:29:50.140 Well, for sure. I mean, they need to know how to read and do some basic math and maybe some

00:29:56.380 world history.

00:29:57.620 Sure.

00:29:58.820 But out in some science, you know, there's some, there's some basics. All right. There's some,

00:30:02.280 you're, you're, you're a former public, public educator. You understand there's some basics,

00:30:07.480 but there's so much more to it. If I can teach a kid how to be creative,

00:30:12.360 how to take calculated risks, how to work hard. Yeah. The math shit's easy, man. That's two plus

00:30:18.580 two is four. It doesn't take long to learn. And so that's always one of those things is what are

00:30:23.960 the meta skills? And that's what we call the meta skills or what are the things that matter to all

00:30:28.820 people of all time? Period. End of story. Your physical health is a meta skill that matters. You're

00:30:35.200 in your body. You're a human being. You need to make sure you can keep your body healthy, man,

00:30:39.440 woman, whatever age, it doesn't matter. So that's a meta skill. Being able to communicate

00:30:43.860 in some regard is a meta skill. Very basic math is a meta skill. And so anything else outside of that

00:30:50.900 is more, what do you need? What do you want? Like, what do you desire? Right? So there's the meta

00:30:56.360 skills everybody needs. And then there's the, what do you desire? And that's what education is all

00:30:59.280 about. It's the combination of those two things. And those things that you're saying, the basic

00:31:03.240 understanding of math, the ability to read, that's great. That's a precursor to the ability to think

00:31:09.120 and write and all of the, everything else that comes out of that science. What do we really need

00:31:13.560 out of science? You need the ability to implement the scientific method and actually think critically

00:31:18.380 and make an observation and make a, you know, a guess on something and then reflect on that and

00:31:23.780 change your mind. Like you need those things. When do you need them by is always a question. And how,

00:31:28.940 how quickly do you get it? And how do you best get it? Those things happen really damn quick when

00:31:32.820 somebody is ready. The things you're talking about, that creativity, that work ethic, those are some

00:31:38.960 things that are built over a long period of time. And they're most easily built by being around, by

00:31:43.700 having it be normal, being around people that are doing that. You start bringing young guys in,

00:31:48.480 then they're around you and anybody else that's attracted to that kind of stuff. The work ethic

00:31:53.240 stuff is going to come through that creativity, those conversations, it's, that's going to just be

00:31:58.780 normal for them. And that's what you're seeking. Emily, you know, Jakey,

00:32:02.320 Jakey, GK. My brain gets going too fast for my mouth. GK Chesterton has one of my favorite quotes

00:32:10.740 of all time. And he talks about how education really has nothing to do with subjects. It is

00:32:15.740 the transfer of a way of life from one entity to another. That's it. So you have so much potential

00:32:25.900 to impact so many people just by doing exactly what you're talking about doing right there. Massive.

00:32:33.500 I, uh, I commend you for having a brain that works faster than your mouth. I have a mouth that works 0.79

00:32:38.260 faster than my brain. So I think you're on the better side of that equation.

00:32:42.980 That's what makes the world go around, brother. I love it.

00:32:45.160 That's awesome.

00:32:48.360 Uh, you know, I'm glad you're talking, like, I didn't actually think that we'd be having this

00:32:52.300 discussion. I don't really, I have some veins and some things I want to explore when I have

00:32:57.080 conversations, but now I'm all fired up on starting this thing. And I'm thinking about names and costs

00:33:02.800 and getting other people involved. And now I'm completely fired up on something else other than

00:33:07.680 what I wanted to talk with you about today.

00:33:09.040 But that's so good, man. And I'll go anywhere you want to go, but I really think that's something

00:33:12.920 worth exploring. And I don't, you know, by please, by no means am I trying to, there's a million

00:33:19.200 different ways to be educated. And so I just want to make this point. It is not a shameless plug promo

00:33:25.140 kind of thing. But when I'm talking to our affiliates about opening an Apogee campus,

00:33:29.880 one of the things we try to get everybody's mind wrapped around is the fact that education looks so

00:33:35.000 many different ways. It doesn't just look like school. So they have a choice. We provide curriculum

00:33:41.900 and support around what we call these buckets. And then they're picking and choosing what buckets

00:33:47.540 they want to implement. So we have the whole academic section. Great. If you want to plug that

00:33:52.780 in, plug that in. Hey, there's also this partnership we have with physiology first. That's all around the

00:33:58.260 exercise and the physiology, but also somebody knows how to be a healthy human. Plug that in.

00:34:02.780 There's the communication piece that talks about Socratic conversations, effective communication,

00:34:07.840 speech, debate, logic, rhetoric, logical fallacies, being able to, to, to really articulate your point

00:34:14.380 of view, right? Like that's a bucket in and of itself. So you can offer that thing to like, that's it.

00:34:19.960 You're piecing together some very important parts of that, that physical, you know, that physical

00:34:25.820 component altogether. But even if you have a podcast studio in there, then you get a young man who just

00:34:31.240 gets to come be part of that creative and just be part of that. It doesn't mean you're teaching

00:34:35.500 him. He's got to be a podcast guy, but he's an apprentice on a creative outlet. And you'll be

00:34:39.620 able to impact so many things because he'll have a purpose. He'll be able to go towards something

00:34:43.340 and that'll either lead them further down that path or it'll offshoot a little bit here, but it

00:34:47.200 doesn't start without you working with them. I think it's rad, dude. I hope you do it.

00:34:50.480 Yeah. Well, I will do it. Like when I start for better or worse, when I start thinking

00:34:56.900 about a thing, I go and that's cost me a lot of time on some things that haven't been in

00:35:04.440 good ideas. I don't think this is one of those though.

00:35:06.820 Yeah, but yeah, exactly. And this is, it's always, it's also been the thing that has made

00:35:10.800 it so that you've impacted so many humans. So that's a good thing.

00:35:13.720 What, um, what do you, what do you think about men and their ability to connect with

00:35:20.960 other men? I, I, I see a big problem in society today is that we're so isolated and we operate

00:35:28.920 in these little eco chambers where it's, you know, I'm, I'm the dad and I talk with my kids

00:35:34.080 at two hours at night and maybe 30 minutes in the morning if I'm lucky. And then I go to

00:35:38.640 work and I'm wearing this separate hat and, but I'm so isolated from everything else.

00:35:43.720 That we're not actually having discussions like you and I are having right now where

00:35:48.380 I think great ideas are generated from.

00:35:51.060 I agree, man. It is. It's a, it's a huge issue. And we see that. I'm sure you see it

00:35:54.460 a lot too with the men that, you know, in, in order of man. And we've had this conversation

00:35:58.480 a lot recently on the apogee side too, where even guys, even guys within our groups are like,

00:36:05.800 Hey, and I live, you know, here, wherever this is. And I feel that I love this, these groups,

00:36:12.880 these discussions, these conversations, we share the same values. We can come at it from

00:36:17.260 different perspectives. We remain curious, which is, I think a big part of what gets lost

00:36:21.780 the, the bravery that it takes to be curious and ask questions. I know you and I agree on

00:36:27.100 a million different things. I know you and I also disagree on some things and that's fricking

00:36:31.580 rad, but we have a lot of the same values and we get along really, really well. And I think

00:36:36.160 that's great. We can make each other better because of all those things being true. And I see so

00:36:41.320 many men that are, that are, if they're not joining something or, or attending something that allows

00:36:49.280 for them to have that they're burning out because they feel, they feel alone. They feel alone. A lot

00:36:56.440 of our guys are just recognizing that that's what they have felt like because now they're having this.

00:37:02.460 So it was making them aware of a loneliness that they were just so immersed in. They didn't even

00:37:07.120 realize like a fish in water, right? Where it's like, you go, okay, you're in water. And it's

00:37:11.060 like, what are you even talking about? I didn't even realize I was there. Cause I'm just immersed

00:37:13.620 in it. There are so many men who are just immersed in this loneliness. So they don't even recognize

00:37:17.960 that they're lonely until they go connect with these other men. And then they're like, Holy shit. 1.00

00:37:24.020 Okay. I've been pretty lonely for a long fricking time. I didn't even realize how much I needed this. 0.99

00:37:29.760 And that's what we're seeing over and over. I'm sure you're seeing the same thing.

00:37:32.640 Well, I would also add the moment, not only is when they realize how alone they were is when

00:37:40.300 they're not alone anymore, but also when something catastrophic happens. Sure. You know, they go

00:37:45.980 through a divorce, they go through a bankruptcy, loss of job, medical diagnosis. And all of a sudden

00:37:51.080 it's like, I need help immediately. And they look around, they're like, shit, nobody's here. 0.99

00:37:57.360 Nobody to turn to. That's a scary thing, man. It's a scary thing. 1.00

00:38:02.480 You know, we don't want anybody obviously to get to that, to that place. And I think one of the

00:38:07.640 interesting opportunities for us, um, I was going to say, you know, one of the interesting

00:38:13.980 problems to solve or up to, but it's an opportunity is to get more men to realize the value of that

00:38:21.140 before they get to a catastrophic, you know, standpoint. What do you think though? I have my

00:38:27.120 own thoughts, but what do you think are the biggest inhibitors of that where, you know,

00:38:34.100 obviously we're intimately familiar with the heartache and frustration of life and being in

00:38:39.140 those desperate times. But what do you think accelerates the isolation in either good times

00:38:48.000 or times where they're just okay, which is, I think where most people are, it's just okay.

00:38:54.400 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think there's, I think there's probably a couple of things I think, and it's

00:38:59.000 an interesting thing to think about. Um, and I'll, I'll keep wrestling with this afterwards too. Um,

00:39:05.880 there is, uh, we, we, we tell ourselves really, really good lies. I do believe that's a big part

00:39:14.000 of human nature, men in particular, as we were really, really eloquent with the lies that we tell

00:39:20.080 ourselves. Uh, we do a good job that whatever, wherever we're at, like that is the, you know,

00:39:26.840 there's honor in staying the same. There's honor in being the guy where somebody can be like, Ryan,

00:39:31.320 man, I knew you back when, you know, we were teenagers and dude, you've never changed. And there's

00:39:35.380 like, there's honor in that, right? Like there's, yeah, man, I'm the guy that stays, you know,

00:39:39.660 which is man, you're under no obligation to be the same person as you were. But when you started

00:39:43.680 this fricking, just this conversation alone, nevermind. Well, I think you're under an obligation

00:39:48.740 to be different actually, if anything, I agree. I think it's very much that way. I think we are

00:39:54.300 absolutely obligated. If we're called to lead at all, including ourselves, we need to, we need to

00:39:59.880 look different. I am, I will be embarrassed if I look the same as I did even a fricking year ago.

00:40:05.380 Like I will be embarrassed, right? I'm obligated to get better. So I think we do a good job of

00:40:10.100 lying to ourselves there. I also think we, we do a good job. I don't think we're immune from the

00:40:16.340 same distractions that our boys face right now, right? Our boys have a lot of distractions

00:40:23.480 that are dangerous to me because they check off this DNA desire that men have of, of action and of

00:40:32.980 adventure and the whole princess thing. And you know, a lot of things that John Eldridge talks

00:40:36.720 about in his book and all that, right? But you've got all these distractions, video games being a huge

00:40:41.020 one where you can check off and again, play video games all you fricking want, whatever. But I think

00:40:45.640 it's a dangerous thing for young men sometimes. And I've talked to young men about this.

00:40:49.380 They check off all that adventure and that sense of accomplishment and then they get done and the

00:40:57.740 dopamine's drained and they're like, whew, okay, I don't really want to go out and accomplish anything

00:41:02.300 in the real world right now. That's a lot harder. It's not as cool looking. It's not as sexy. And then

00:41:07.860 they're perpetuating that isolation. I think that's still available for men too, whether it's video

00:41:13.500 games, whether it's television, whether it's porn, whether it's they're checking off all of these

00:41:18.360 things, man, um, that, that it's hitting some sort of primal need, but it's not really hitting the

00:41:26.020 primal need. And it's just perpetuating that isolation. I think it's a really good question

00:41:29.820 to ponder. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't have the answers. I get distracted just like everybody else

00:41:36.740 does, you know, but I think that purpose and the mission that's beyond and above myself is what

00:41:44.880 even in moments of temptation, distraction, keep me focused on what I ought to be doing or what I've

00:41:50.120 identified I should be doing. You bet. So these men that are feeling lonely and feeling isolated,

00:41:55.520 maybe we've got a purpose problem, right? Which again, maybe, maybe church used to help solve that.

00:42:01.540 Maybe it didn't, maybe the, but what is, how do we get them purpose again?

00:42:04.760 How, how do you though? Are there some thoughts that you have? Because this is obviously a,

00:42:10.040 it is a crisis in the truest sense of the word that men are lacking purpose and direction in their

00:42:14.580 lives. Is it just being around other motivated and ambitious men? I mean, that's part of it.

00:42:19.880 Or is there more to it? Well, how is purpose achieved? You know, I don't think I'm not a big fan

00:42:24.740 of the, the concept of we find our purpose or, or helping somebody find their passion or find,

00:42:30.760 I don't, I don't believe that. I believe we forge it. And I've always said, that's why it's part of

00:42:35.740 the, I love the name of the event that we have coming up because I do believe that I believe you

00:42:42.060 forge a purpose. And so the question then becomes, how do you get somebody brave enough to just start

00:42:47.360 for it? It doesn't have to be the thing you're not. I don't believe men automatically go, this is

00:42:52.620 what it is. And I'm going to forge it right now. I think you just need to forge something and let that

00:42:58.320 inform you. So yeah, it is a, it's a really good question of how do we entice men to start creating

00:43:05.100 and, or how do we, um, that is the question. And yes, I think good men around you is a huge part of

00:43:13.600 that. It's the, you know, the whole five people, you're, you know, that whole thing. I believe

00:43:18.280 that's true. And it's the five books that you read most. It's the five television programs. It's

00:43:21.720 the five songs. It's the five, it's the five fricking everything. And I think having good men around

00:43:25.700 you is a huge, it's a huge push for, for men. I, uh, I was watching the last samurai either last

00:43:35.000 night or the night before. It's one of my favorite. Have you seen it? No, but I've heard that's

00:43:39.040 killer. Oh, you should watch. It's one of my top five favorite movies. You should definitely watch

00:43:43.400 it. Um, and Tom Cruise. Yep. Tom Cruise's character. I think his name is Captain Algren,

00:43:50.480 I think is what his name is. And the premise of the movie is that he's, he's a conflicted soul

00:43:57.020 because he fought in the civil war and, um, he ends up being captured by the samurais. And I think

00:44:08.920 his name is Katsumoto is the character and, uh, Katsumoto Katsumoto is a samurai in a, in a,

00:44:16.060 in a brave, you know, warrior. And to your point about being like the other people that you're

00:44:22.200 around, it ends up being a situation where Captain Algren's character becomes, starts to heal

00:44:29.200 through the relationship that he has with his captor who ends up being a very righteous and

00:44:35.120 virtuous warrior. Um, it's just interesting. Cause I think we, as men resonate with movies like that,

00:44:41.560 uh, and you know, gladiator, um, Braveheart, Patriot. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yep.

00:44:52.340 We resonate with that, but then we don't, we just don't do it in our own lives because I think

00:44:57.160 partially because it doesn't happen in a two hour timeframe. We do. We asked. And it's not quite as

00:45:03.700 dramatic. And I kind of feel like our lives would be better if all of us had theme music wherever we

00:45:09.940 went, like our theme music would play, but we don't have that in real life. And so it's not as

00:45:14.620 dramatic and amazing as this, as cinema might be. Bro. Uh, there's so many things that's so funny

00:45:20.700 that you're breaking. We didn't talk about this prior to you too, but we do, we suck at patients. 0.94

00:45:24.700 We're absolutely fricking horrible at patients. Um, you're talking about this theme, you know,

00:45:29.880 we're talking about Braveheart, talking about theme music. I get made fun of at home because

00:45:35.140 everywhere, especially if I'm out on the farm and doing stuff, but everywhere I go,

00:45:39.040 unless I am in a conversation like this, I've got my phone on me and I have music playing and it's

00:45:46.580 music to, to set the tone and set the mood of whatever I'm going to go into. If it is just a

00:45:52.860 day of work here at the computer, I have the Braveheart theme song. It plays the entire day,

00:45:57.080 the entire day while I'm working on stuff. And then it goes off when I'm, when I'm having a

00:46:01.240 conversation. And then when I'm out in the farm, depending on what's happening, like if I'm

00:46:04.540 chopping trees, you know, the soundtrack might change, but it's going to go to one of these

00:46:09.020 other things that impacted us. Cause I think culturally, this was interesting too. It'll go

00:46:12.200 to like, you know, the Rocky montages and some of this stuff, like right from like when we grew up.

00:46:18.240 Um, and I do that to set my mind into that. And I do think that's a powerful thing, man. That's

00:46:23.380 interesting. Um, and that's part of consumption. It's part of the top five, whatever. It's that same

00:46:28.580 concept of what you're feeding yourself and expecting from yourself, you know, out of that. Um,

00:46:34.380 and you just, you end up making that normal. That's the beauty of relationships is, is when

00:46:38.700 you have those people, what you make normal is normal. I always say my kids speak English

00:46:43.780 because I fricking speak English. They speak English. That's not that right. It's like 1.00

00:46:49.020 that they don't speak Chinese cause I don't fricking speak it and I've never spoken it and

00:46:52.840 I've never spoken it around them. So they don't either. Right. So that's normal. I do believe

00:46:57.720 we are, we're complex creatures, but things like that are that simple. So it's normal to have

00:47:04.340 it's normal for me to have these kinds of conversations like we're having now because

00:47:08.760 I talk with you at least, you know, one I talk with you usually at least every week. Um,

00:47:14.540 and we have these conversations once every couple of weeks. And then we go talk to other

00:47:19.460 guys who are in this space or who are creating and who it's normal to us now. And guys need

00:47:26.580 that. I think it's, um, it's a testament to the power of being intentional. Yeah, man.

00:47:34.560 You know, if I were to ask the average listener or men who are inside of our groups to describe

00:47:41.460 their friends, the people, the men in particular, who they spend the most amount of time with, 0.97

00:47:48.140 I, I think it would be a lot of losers. I think it would be a lot of average players. I think it 0.83

00:47:54.920 would be a lot of people they went to high school with and never gave the relationship

00:47:58.480 a second thought after the last 20, 30 years. And if there's one thing I wish that more men

00:48:04.640 would do is they would be more deliberate and intentional about who they're spending their

00:48:09.600 time with. I, you don't owe anything to your high school buddy. That's right. You don't owe

00:48:15.220 anything to your loser brother-in-law who is just in your life because you happen to find his 1.00

00:48:20.720 sister attractive. Like, but those are, those are the relationships that we often have is just by 0.96

00:48:29.400 default. And we don't really design out or map out or even invest in the relationship that like,

00:48:36.120 for example, you and I have, or the guy that you go to the gym with or the conference that you attend

00:48:40.520 or the program that you sign up for. It's unfortunate, but a lot of guys just don't do that.

00:48:46.160 Brother, you're spot on and it's a life by default, right? And it's like a, because that allows us to

00:48:53.700 take, it allows us to, to not take responsibility. It allows us to always have somebody else we can

00:48:59.340 point the finger at because by default, I've had a very clearly defined, you know, steps one through

00:49:05.520 10 to a life of slavery, but at least I knew what I was getting. And I could always point to somebody

00:49:09.680 else and say, damn it, if they would only, this would have made my life better. Right. Versus the 0.99

00:49:14.600 undefined path to sovereignty, to freedom, which is always undefined and always requires responsibility 0.99

00:49:22.100 and always goes at the end of the day, you got to be able to point to yourself and go, well, I fucked 0.87

00:49:25.640 that up or I made that. You've got to have, you got to have that. And that's, that's way scarier for

00:49:31.380 so many guys. So, so true. But it's, it's, it's also interesting though, because if you're the one

00:49:37.760 who fucked it up, you're the one who can fix it. Bingo. If you're not the one who messed it up, 0.95

00:49:43.560 there's nothing you can do about it. Bingo. Yep. But, but that for so, so many guys is,

00:49:48.040 I think it's equally as terrifying sometimes. I'm the one that can fix it. And then that very

00:49:53.120 quickly turns into shit. That means I'm the one that has to fix it. And again, they're back and 1.00

00:49:56.760 that's, that's the fear. Well, why is that terrifying? I mean, I don't feel that way, but I've also

00:50:01.580 cultivated that over decades of, of my life. And I know you don't, but why do so many men feel that way?

00:50:07.040 Yeah. Why is that terrifying? Yeah. Isn't that, isn't that an interesting question? Like,

00:50:11.060 why is that terrifying? Why do we lean so heavily into fear? And I, and I, you know, recently I've

00:50:16.500 been trying to work through that too recently. And it's like my default, I know my, because of my,

00:50:22.420 my background, I'll default to, well, you know, school's a huge part of it. And maybe it is

00:50:26.400 where you automatically hand over the pen to your own story quickly. You know, it's, you learn very

00:50:31.960 quickly that you're just here to, you're here to play somebody else's game and they're going to tell

00:50:35.480 you when to do it and how to do it. And like, you learn very quickly that that's a thing. So I do

00:50:40.240 think there's, there's an element of that, but dude, it goes back so much further. Um, you know,

00:50:45.100 you look at, you look at, at the Exodus movement and you look at, you know, Moses taking the people 0.91

00:50:52.360 out of the slavery and they're still going, it didn't take long. And they're like, ah, we want to

00:50:56.640 kill that guy. God, you're right here with us. But if you could shut up, like that would be great. 1.00

00:51:01.500 You know, and it's like, man, there's something about our nature that wants to be, um, that wants

00:51:07.200 to be lazy sometimes and wants to just be taken care of and not have that responsibility.

00:51:12.780 And that, that to me is the bigger question. Why did, why is that even fricking in there?

00:51:19.520 It's, it's, I'm kind of at a loss for words. Cause it's hard for me to resonate with. Like I get

00:51:24.120 tired and lazy at times. And then my, my, um, my ambition gets the better of me where it's like,

00:51:31.560 okay, well I can, I can, I've certainly have the right to be lazy. I can certainly be lazy. I've

00:51:36.800 been relatively successful with my career and you know, things at times in my life. And I happen to

00:51:43.380 be on one of those times right now where things seem to be firing well. Um, so I, I can take it easy,

00:51:48.460 but I just, I'm not interested in what everybody else is in. I'm interested in more, you know, I,

00:51:54.580 I don't. And therefore I realized I need to do more. I need to get up. And I like last night I

00:51:59.680 was sitting down watching a movie, just kind of hanging out. And I'm like, okay, I just had dinner.

00:52:04.940 I'm like, cool. I'm just going to lay here and like fall asleep on the couch. I'm like,

00:52:08.240 the hell you are, get up and go to the gym. And so I went into the gym and I ran two miles,

00:52:13.540 but I don't, I don't really know why I wish I could tell you why. Cause I think then we could

00:52:19.620 begin to explore it for other men. I don't know why it's how do you cultivate that in others?

00:52:26.980 Right. And then as dads, how do we cultivate, like, how do we recognize where our, our kids are

00:52:34.380 in that too? What is their nature? Are they, are they of the nature of like, let's go do more

00:52:39.840 or are they more like, they're not fucking, I'm going to sleep on the couch. And then how do we 0.89

00:52:43.680 lead them? And now we do either. It's a fast. Yeah. It's a fascinating, it's a fascinating question,

00:52:49.840 man. Do you see that in your kids? Which do you see them taking after you on the, like, let's go get

00:52:54.980 more. To be fair, I see it in my oldest particularly, but I think to be fair, that's probably most true 0.83

00:53:06.000 because him and I are very much in alignment with our hobbies and interests. Yeah. But my second son,

00:53:14.260 my daughter, um, they like, we're not aligned in our interests. Yeah. So they, sometimes I interpret

00:53:23.320 them being uninterested in what I am as laziness, but I don't think it is because I also see them

00:53:28.440 Excel, my daughter with dance. I mean, and not something that resonates deeply with me, but she

00:53:36.560 is on fire about dance. Um, my second son, he loves to draw. Uh, he's really into sneakers. He's really

00:53:45.480 into cars, not things I'm particularly interested in. So I could say, well, you're being lazy because

00:53:50.960 you don't want to go play sports, but I don't, he's not lazy when it comes to that stuff. Right.

00:53:56.040 So then as the default setting of, of people, not laziness, but we got to find out what they are

00:54:03.080 not wanting to be fired up by what are they fired up by? Right. And I think that's the beauty of when

00:54:09.780 I talk about education, I am not talking about schools. I'm talking about leading yourself to

00:54:15.240 get better and leading others to get better. And, and there are those meta skills, your son,

00:54:21.200 your daughter that aren't, don't have particularly aligned interests. There are still those meta

00:54:26.360 skills that matter. The physical health part, there's all that stuff, but it can manifest in

00:54:30.840 different ways. And then the interesting part of educator, that word is to draw out is drawing out

00:54:35.940 what's uniquely exciting to them. You said educator, educator. Is that Latin? Yeah. Yeah. It's,

00:54:44.920 it's, it's, there's edu, educare and educere. And, and so it's like the one is, is like a drawing out

00:54:51.420 of the natural, um, you know, excitement and the natural capabilities of a human. And the other one

00:54:57.320 is more of like a, a scaffolding then from the outside kind of deal, which again, I believe is

00:55:01.980 what education is, right? It's the, the framework for how to learn or what? It's a framework for how

00:55:07.940 we're designed. And so it's just a framework for looking at, okay, does Ryan right now, is he needing,

00:55:14.920 something from the outside, some sort of outside pressure, um, some sort of outside instruction,

00:55:21.360 some sort of outside guidance where he can now be the apprentice to somebody who is a mentor,

00:55:26.800 a master and is going to, to, to pull that. Or is it something that is uniquely inside of him

00:55:34.240 that I can see that he doesn't yet know. And I've got to try to draw it out somehow. I've got to try to

00:55:40.300 give an experience somehow to draw out what's already there. He's just got it covered up.

00:55:46.400 Are you familiar with Joseph Campbell's, The Hero's Journey?

00:55:49.520 Yeah, man. A hundred percent.

00:55:51.220 That's what I hear you talking about is, you know, if, if guys aren't familiar with The Hero's

00:55:55.500 Journey, it's the thread line for every great movie, like Last Samurai or The Patriot or whatever.

00:56:01.340 It's this external conflict that we immediately recognize, but underlying is this internal conflict

00:56:11.540 that we have. And then we hit rock bottom and we're introduced to a mentor who gives us a new

00:56:17.220 perspective in the way that we look at things. And by solving the external crisis, we end up solving

00:56:23.460 the internal one.

00:56:24.440 That's right. That's exactly it. And then that cycle continues because The Hero's Journey is always

00:56:29.000 put in like a circular fashion. And I think he's got like a 12, it's like 12 specific steps,

00:56:33.780 right? And so then you solve those crises and then you come back and, and you, I don't remember what

00:56:40.620 he calls it. It's something like the, you know, something to do with the elixir and then coming back

00:56:44.560 in. And so like, you come back to actually then serve with this new found understanding, right?

00:56:50.920 As the new mentor for somebody else. And you start interesting there. Right. And so I wasn't

00:56:57.120 familiar with that portion of it, but that's interesting, which is, which is great. And then

00:57:00.820 you can, in theory, start again, new, new, new crisis, new thing, new, you know, you can,

00:57:06.860 it's a circular, it's a circular representation. The matrix is as cliche as, as those movie references

00:57:13.580 get, that really is focused on that hero's journey cycle. I mean, very much. I mean,

00:57:19.860 I think about it with my own personal situation, you know, with my divorce and, and the relationship

00:57:25.760 and, and how that's gone over the past. That's an external crisis. Anybody who's ever gone

00:57:31.600 through that understands the external crisis that that can be. And as I was working on solving

00:57:37.220 that, not to the degree that I wish I would have, I learned a lot about myself. And in that

00:57:42.680 painful, very painful process became a better man internally because of the external crisis I was

00:57:52.420 confronted with. That's right. And, and you had to reflect on that to, to choose to learn the lessons

00:57:57.600 of that too, because there are guys that don't choose to learn the lessons of that. And it still,

00:58:01.860 it stays with the finger pointing out here, but you're choosing to learn that. And knowing you,

00:58:06.000 you'll also take those lessons and you'll go help somebody else. You'll help your own kids.

00:58:09.340 You'll help other men who are going through similar things, right? The cycle continues.

00:58:13.960 Yeah. That's cool, man. Yeah. Interesting, man. I love our discussions. I love our conversations.

00:58:19.380 You got me thinking about new things and I'm sure that everybody in my life is going to be really,

00:58:23.760 really grateful sarcastically to you that you got me fired up about this initiative of

00:58:28.760 this, uh, boys club or whatever. I don't know what we call it, but I'm kind of fired up about that.

00:58:35.460 I'm so excited for you, man. I really, and let me know how I can help on that.

00:58:39.840 Oh, I will. Yeah. Trust me. I will. You will be hearing from me.

00:58:44.240 I think that's fricking awesome. No, I love it.

00:58:47.800 Well, Matt, we've got this event, man. I'm so excited to be partnered up with you. It's coming

00:58:51.600 up in May, May 1st through the 4th. It's themensforge.com. And, and I think a lot of what

00:58:56.080 we're talking about speaks to the deliberateness and intentionality of surrounding yourself with other

00:59:01.900 men who get you thinking about life differently. I've, I've had that happen in the past hour that

00:59:07.900 we've talked about. And of course I've had this a countless amount of times as you and I have

00:59:12.000 built our friendship. Um, but I, I hope, I hope people can come out because these are the types

00:59:17.480 of conversations that we're all going to be privy to if they do. Yeah. You know, when we were all

00:59:22.180 meeting and talking yesterday, um, you know, we were talking about that, the concept of forging and

00:59:28.240 forging these relationships and forging that, that purpose and forging that path forward,

00:59:33.280 be kind of being this through line for all of us that are taking different angles on that. What

00:59:38.600 does it look like to, to forge, you know, from a creative standpoint, from the entrepreneurial

00:59:43.120 standpoint, from the husband standpoint, from the fatherhood standpoint, like it's all of that.

00:59:48.080 But the word you use, I mean, and again, I love the, I love the forge being used as, as what we're

00:59:53.820 doing. But the word we're talking about a lot today is that intentionality. It's really that

00:59:57.860 that's the through line. Like you said, it's the intentionality in all of those areas. And so

01:00:03.120 I'm excited about it too, man. Cause it's, it's, it'll help people who maybe feel lonely.

01:00:07.660 Maybe they don't, but it's putting you around a bunch of really good guys. Um, and my heart,

01:00:15.340 and I know it's yours too, is it's not just a man. Cool. That was a great reset. That's a part of it,

01:00:20.100 but also having some things to then go be intentional about and to go implement, to keep that hero's

01:00:27.140 journey cycle going so that you take something away from this, that you did not have before.

01:00:32.440 And now you can go pass that on to your family, to your community, you know, and I know we got

01:00:37.000 guys that are all focused on that. So I'm pumped for it, man. Yeah. It's going to be amazing. Yeah.

01:00:42.360 Well, cool. We'll tell the guys how to connect with you, learn a little bit more about what

01:00:45.480 you're up to. And then obviously, you know, we'll link it all up to themensforge.com. So guys can have

01:00:50.760 conversations with you, with me, we'll sit around the campfire, we'll do some jujitsu,

01:00:55.420 we'll throw some axes. Uh, we'll hear from some great speakers, but these are the kind of

01:00:59.700 conversations we'll be having. The best man. I'm pumped for it. Yeah. Um, really anything we're

01:01:04.500 doing, man, Apogee strong is the way to go. Um, that'll point you anywhere and everywhere. So

01:01:08.720 apogeestrong.com, you know, Apogee program on social media, you can always find me at my name and

01:01:13.580 that's easy too. But, um, what we're doing, the mission it's all through Apogee strong.

01:01:19.700 Awesome, Matt. I appreciate you, brother. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

01:01:22.940 Anytime, all the time, brother.

01:01:26.120 Man, there you go. Mr. Matt Boudreau as a repeat guest, I'm sure that you have enjoyed my

01:01:31.620 conversations with Matt in the past, and I'm sure and hope that you enjoyed this one. Uh, make sure

01:01:36.460 to connect with Matt on the gram or X or Facebook, wherever you do your social media scrolling.

01:01:43.440 Also, if you want to meet Matt in person and me as well, probably more Matt than me, I get it.

01:01:48.060 Then go to themensforge.com. We're going to be talking about not only these issues, but other issues

01:01:54.080 with Larry Hagner from the dad edge, Connor Beaton with man talks, uh, Matt Vincent with

01:01:59.540 not dead yet. Dr. Robert Glover, Sathia Sam overcoming pornography addiction. We've got,

01:02:04.840 like I said earlier, a powerhouse lineup. And I want you there. That's themensforge.com. That

01:02:10.580 is your only marching order for today. Get signed up for that immediately. Lock in that

01:02:14.980 spot. I think we have a few VIP spots left, but not very many. That's at themensforge.com.

01:02:20.440 All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for our, ask me anything until then go out there,

01:02:25.280 take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:02:31.660 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your

01:02:35.960 life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

01:02:41.820 Thank you.

01:02:42.820 Thank you.

01:02:43.120 Thank you.

01:02:43.160 Thank you.

Order of Man - February 18, 2025

MATT BEAUDREAU ｜ How the System is Failing Men

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