MATT BEAUDREAU ｜ How the System is Failing Men
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Length
1 hour and 2 minutes
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190.33801
Summary
Matt Boudreau joins me on the podcast today to talk about why this is the case and how our steady decline starts at a young age inside the halls of academia. We talk about Trump's desire to dismantle the Department of Education, how government and academia have distracted us from true learning, and why you have to forge a life by design, not default.
Transcript
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So choose a metric regarding health, wealth, and fulfillment of men. And guys, it's easy to see
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that men are either falling drastically behind our female counterparts or at a minimum on a
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downward spiral. Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think it's a contest between the sexes that would
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suggest that it's a zero-sum game. It's not, but it is a glimpse into modern man's gradual decline
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in his ability to protect, provide, and preside in his life and the lives of those he cares about.
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Matt Boudreau joins me on the podcast today to talk about why this is the case and how our steady
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decline starts at a young age inside the halls of academia. We talk about Trump's desire to shut
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down the Department of Education. Obviously, that's very controversial. How government and
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academia have distracted us from true learning. Why you'll never find your purpose. You have to
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forge it. Living a life by design, not default, and the importance of your hero's journey.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart
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your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You
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are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is
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who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and
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Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for listening,
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whether you've been here for a minute, an hour, a month, a year, or even 10 years. Next month,
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we mark our 10-year anniversary, March 15th, in fact, of the Order of Man movement and mission,
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and I want to thank you for being here. Obviously, on this podcast, it's my goal to bring you great
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conversations with very successful men and women in the world of academia, in the world
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of entertainment and media, and athletes and scholars and warriors and New York Times bestselling
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authors, scientists, you name it. We've got them here on this podcast, and today is no different.
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Before I get into that, I want to mention that we've got our big event coming up in May, May 1st,
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through the 4th, and I've partnered with some incredible men. Matt Boudreau is one of them
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to bring an experience to you unlike you've ever had before. Not only are you going to have
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conversations and insight from leading authorities on everywhere from pornography and overcoming that
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to fitness, to building wealth, to thriving, succeeding, overcoming being a nice guy with Dr.
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Robert Glover. It's a powerhouse lineup of men that we have there. So if you're interested in
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banding with us and coming out to that event, May 1st through the 4th of this year, go to
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themensforge.com. That's themensforge.com. We'll talk a little bit more about it later.
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For now, I want to introduce you to my guest. Again, his name is Matt Boudreau. He is a former
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public school teacher. He's been an administrator and professor at Stanford University, and he is a
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well-known, world-renowned keynote speaker with clients that range from Lockheed Martin,
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Caterpillar, Honeywell, the Air Force. Those are just to name a few. He has made it his life's
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mission to find very powerful and alternative education opportunities for our young men and
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women. He has partnered with Tim Kennedy, a former guest as well, many of you know, and
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he is working on these young men's mentoring programs. He's also the founder of Apogee Strong,
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which is both an online and physical education program. They've got dozens and dozens of new
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campuses opening up all around the country this year, and I believe that his programs,
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his systems, and his tools of education will quite literally change the landscape in the way that we
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educate our young men. I think one of my biggest questions that I have for you, since you've been
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an educator in the public sector and private sector, is some of your thoughts around Trump's alluding to
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the idea of dismantling and disbanding the Department of Education.
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Yeah, man. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't excited about that. And also, it's also cautiously
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optimistic, too. I'm very openly not somebody who dives too deep into the public arena. I've got
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one, you know, somebody who I would say is a good friend who's in politics, and she and I never talk
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politics, right? We just talk family. We talk education.
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Is that Tulsi Gabbard, or is that somebody else?
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It's Tulsi, yeah. I only said that because I saw your post a few seconds before we jumped on.
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Oh, did you? Nice, dude. Yeah. So she's rad, and it's just, we just talk humanity, man. And so
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she's my favorite politician, you know, therein. So Tim's a little more connected in that world,
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and then has more of those conversations, and that's great. The Department of Education, man,
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this is, it has nothing to do with, it's never had anything to do with education. By any objective
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measure, we've gone, we've gone downhill since the inception of this in 1979, right? So I'm not
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one of those guys that gets worried about this being gone and control going back to the states,
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and oh my gosh, because the red herring becomes, okay, well, what about funding for kids with special,
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you know, special needs, or what about all, it's always a funding, funding, funding. Dude,
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funding is never the answer. So I'm glad that control can go back to the states.
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I'm also realistic and saying, okay, well, what is that? What does that mean? Because the control,
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ultimately, if it's not in the family's hands, then, and if there's strings attached for what
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they can do to get this money, or, you know, ESA money, or what the school, then, then that's going
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to be, you know, that's going to suck too. So I'm glad. I mean, the reality is, if it goes all to
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the states, the blue states are going to fall behind, and the red states are going to excel. I mean,
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that's, I can't put it any more simply. I know it's going to offend some people who are listening,
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but based on what I'm seeing, and I don't have the data, but what I'm seeing is the blue states
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are going to fall behind like they always do, and the red states are going to excel.
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And, and you got the, you know, you got your union, that's the, that's like your department
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of education, but then you still have your union stuff. You still have what's going on for teacher
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education at the college level that is still going to play into all of this stuff, red states or blue
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states, right? So this in and of itself, I'm glad to see it, but it is not the answer to everything.
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It's not going to be the end all be all everything. And it always begs the question, well, what are we
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deeming as successful anyways? What does success mean? The red states do better at what? What are we,
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what definition, Socrates says, beginning wisdom, definition of terms, right? Is the definition of
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terms that we're going after a turnaround and an increase in academic performance on specific tests?
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because there's some, I can tell you what I think it is, but yeah, it's, it's a, it's an increase in
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GDP. And that's, that's how, that's how I would measure it. You know, if, you know, you can look
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at a state and say, okay, well these, this amount of people have bachelors or doctorates or whatever
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it might be. And that's good and fine and wonderful. But at the end of the day, which states,
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and we're only talking about it from an economic standpoint, not a family standpoint, not a
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spiritual standpoint, I'm isolating to the economic factor. We just look at what states
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are the most economically productive. And those are the individuals who are succeeding.
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I agree. And that's never, those are never the metrics that we're using to measure the,
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the, right, the output for the schools. And that's one of the biggest, that's why I don't get too far
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into the weeds on that. So, cause what we're measuring is how do they do on specific standardized
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scores? How do they do on specific academic? Cool. If that translated into what you're talking
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about one-to-one, great. Then I'd be all for it. It doesn't, it doesn't. That's a more multifaceted
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conversation. That's why the men and the women conversation is so important. The parental
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conversations are so important. The, what we're talking about with men pouring into other men and
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having them at like, that's why all of these things are so important. Cause that's also a factor
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that we aren't, we aren't measuring. So I'm glad it's going away. And also we'll see.
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I don't think it's going away, but I do appreciate the, uh, the push for it, the vigor when it comes
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to it, because it's at least a conversation that needs to be had. I think the other conversation
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that needs to be had is social security and Medicare. I don't think they're going away anytime
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soon, but can we start talking about this like serious adults, instead of listening to these
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grandmas and grandpas complain about why their benefits that we're paying for use their benefits
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loosely that we're paying for should be a given, but that might be a different conversation.
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You did say something interesting though. You said the men and women conversation. What I,
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So we don't, you know, there, there's so many, so many factors to, to success, defining what success
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means in the first place for an individual, for a state, for the country, what does success mean in
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the first place? And we, we, when we start talking about education, we've, we never mention
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the men and the women who are involved in this, the parents who are involved in this, the fact
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that education doesn't stop at fricking 18. And so we just go education is a, is a five-year-old
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through 18 year old problem, or maybe we add college into it. No, this is a full, uh, it's a
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full family affair. We don't take that into account. And it's so important that we do. It's that.
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Well, one of the things that you often hear, and I'm sure you've heard this retort all the time is
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everything you're doing is great and wonderful, but what about the kids who don't have mom and
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dad at home? And, and dad specifically, I think it's probably more prevalent than mom, not being
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at home. So what, what do we do about it? Because you're right. A nuclear family, given all the data,
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given all the information, a nuclear family, which I'm not part of currently, but a nuclear family
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with biological mother, biological father at home with the children, regardless if it's public school
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or private school or a combination or a co-opt or monastery or whatever is always going to excel
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relative to a child who might be without mom and or dad in their lives. We just know that
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that that's a fact. Yep. But what about those kids who don't have the nuclear family dynamic?
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Right. And it's a, and it's a valid question where I get concerned is that the, uh, like the
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underlying tone, usually when somebody asks that the underlying tone is that we should design
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everything around them versus keep everything optimized and go, right. It's like the, um,
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it's like the sexual assault and should abortion be legal and should abort. Well, what about the
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people who, what about incest? What about rape? What about, we take them, we take a minority,
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we take a real thing that needs to be addressed and we go, that's going to go ahead and set the
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standard for everything else. Right. And so we do the same thing with education too. What about the
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kids that don't have access to it? So then don't we just keep everything at the lowest common
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denominator? No, we do not. We still raise the bar. We still, whoever we can focus on that has the
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opportunity to raise the bar. We still allow that. And we go, okay, how do we help these? How do we
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help these people too? Cause we are talking about more of an education issue. So yeah, that accessibility
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to those things matters, man. And I'm not going to pretend I have all the answers. I can tell you
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what we're trying to do to make that more accessible, but that is a giant multifaceted thing.
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And is that, is that a, is that a government's responsibility to pick those people up? What do you
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think on that? No, the answer is no. Unequivocally. I don't think so. I mean, that's, that's the
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reality of it. It's unfortunate, but I, I mean, I see the, I see the argument for it. Same.
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But the reality is, is that it's not the government's responsibility. And I think what ended up
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happening throughout the course of our country's existence is that we poured more and more and
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handed more and more over to the government where, uh, communities, families, and social
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institutions took over. But when you do away with church and you do away with the community
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and you break down the nuclear family, then of course, big daddy government is there to rescue
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you. You bet. Right. And so what are we going to do? We're going to pour more funding because
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funding is always going back to where we started to like, it's more funding. Oh, we got to make
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sure we have funding for it. No, it's not funding these systems. It is ultimately funding. If,
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if funding is a part of it, that needs to go to the families as much as possible. Right. And I'm
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always a fan of government staying out of anything. So on our side, part of what we do is we've got our
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specific foundations so that we can route some of that money, if we can, to families who wouldn't
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be able to afford that kind of experience. And we can provide mentors to those young people
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who don't have the father there. And we're not going to be able to save the world with our efforts
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in that. But if we got more and more people that are doing that, we can still stay on this course of
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creating what we want to create and trying to bring as many people along with us. To me, that's the best
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that it's the best we're going to do. Do you believe I'm just, I'm trying to think about it from a
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critic standpoint, do you believe that there's enough charity in this world? And I'm not just
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talking about financial contributions. I'm talking about just being charitable, being, being
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liberal with your resources. If I, if I can say that, you know, if I can use that term, but
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right. Time, money, expertise, knowledge, know how, um, introductions to other connections,
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like all the things that you and I just naturally do. Do you believe that there's enough
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that would actually sustain that? Or is it a requirement that big daddy government comes in
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and all but obligates or forces us to contribute to these initiatives?
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A really good question, man. If I'm looking at, you know, based on, based on, uh,
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N equals one and kind of here and, and personal observations and, and anecdotes. And I do believe
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that is the default setting of humanity, but I believe we've got a few things working against
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us. I believe we've got distractions where even good people who would normally be charitable
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get so caught up in, in being entertained or being distracted in other ways that, that,
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you know, they, they are able to mask that default setting of wanting to go out and serve.
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I think there is the, uh, now cultural acquiescence where we assume this is now the government's job
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to take this on. Just like we assume it is the government's job to educate our kids.
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And so we've been trained, I think, societally to, to hand those things off where I do think
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that's a natural state, man. I do think, and I saw that, man, I live out here in, in, you know,
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near Asheville, North Carolina. I don't know if anybody heard, but there was a tiny bit of a
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hurricane that took place this year. That was gnarly. And it wiped out a lot of things for a
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lot of people. And it took out a whole lot of human beings. And what I saw was nothing but amazing
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people, not talking anything about politics, not talking about anything about their favorite
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sports teams. It was like, Hey, how do we band together and provide any resources that we have,
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whether it's time, effort, food, money, how do we help? And when I reached out to, you know,
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just even on social media, man, within a matter of days, we'd raised a hundred grand that we were
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able to disseminate out here and bring supplies, man. I saw the goodness come out so quick because
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everybody forgot about, well, it's the government's job. It's like, no, no, we just need to do this.
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So that sense of urgency, I think when it's there in our face, we're willing to get away from those
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distractions and actually go do what matters. I do think that's the default.
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I'm, I'm, I'm wrestling with this a little bit because I, I disagree that it's our default.
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I don't, I think our default is greed, envy, jealousy, slothfulness, laziness, lust.
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I think that's our default, but there's something compelling about rallying around as a community
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that I think we're missing in modern times. Our default is fallen. If we're to look at the,
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the biblical references, our default is that we're fallen and we're broken and we're sinful
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and prideful and everything else that comes with it. But there's gotta be some other compelling
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reason. Right. To overcome what I call the natural man.
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Okay. And so what is that then? What is the thing that gets us to overcome that nature? Is it just
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purpose in general? Is it because I think unpacking this is, is it matters, right? Because what I saw
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out here, and again, I'll speak just for a minute. I don't have, I got no statistics to give you on this,
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but what I saw out here being in the midst of this, this storm is I saw a lot of people come out to
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this, literally coming out to the streets going, cool, man. Do you know of somebody that needs
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something? Like, let's go, let's get after it. Let's hand. I did not see the default of greed and I
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did not see loot. It's looting and things like that have probably, but that was not the overwhelming
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majority of what I saw. I saw the opposite. Right. And so, and again, I'm not disagree. I get what
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you're saying as far as that default nature, but what is the thing? Does it need to be a crisis?
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Does it need to be a bigger purpose that everybody can rally around? Is it the, you know, September
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12th, 2001 effect of like, now we've got something to rally around. What is that? Because if that's
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the case, cool. Sounds good. How do we, how do we impact that kind of movement in our community as
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men, if we want to lead, how do we get people to rally around something like that to change maybe
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that default nature and have it? Like, I think that's a question worth asking.
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I think what it is, is relatability. I think, well, what I, what I mean is if, if, okay, let me give
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an example. It's kind of a morbid example, but I think it's just a good thought exercise.
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There's two burning buildings that are identical, two burning buildings. And I'm standing equal
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distance from one to the other. And again, this is where it's a little bit morbid, but inside of
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building a, my child is inside and inside of building B, your child is inside and I'm the only
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one there. I'm sorry, Matt, I'm going to building a, as you should, just like I would expect you to go
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to building B. You bet. And so when I talk about relatability, I think this is what I'm talking
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about when it comes down to the social dismantling of these institutions that binded us together
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in struggle. We see ourselves in the position of the other people because we've been there before,
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but we're so disconnected through these little devices and technology and all the things that
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have the opportunity to connect us. Unlike we've ever been, but we don't relate with people, man.
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We don't relate like we used to, you know, if my neighbor a hundred years ago needed to raise a
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barn, me and 20, 30, 40, a hundred other men would have got together to raise a barn because next week,
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guess whose barn's getting raised? Mine. That's right. Shared interest. Yeah. Relatability.
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Yeah. I like that. Um, do you think it's more important for us to have
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uh, an increase like right now where we are an increase in shared opportunities for relatability,
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or is it more impactful for us to take out the distractions and things that really drive us away
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from that? Right. And this is where the Socratic part of my mind goes and the educator part of my
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mind goes is like, cool. I like that. And so which is more important? The, the elimination of the
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distraction that takes us away from it or the increased focus on creating opportunities for
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that relatability? I think the latter. Yeah. The increased focus. Yeah. I think if the increased
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focus goes on the relatability, whether it's a men's church congregation in your local community
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or a boys and girls type club or a YMCA or an Apogee Academy or, you know, fill in the blank,
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I think, or even just coaching your kid's t-ball team. Yeah. Yeah. I think the distractions take
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care of themselves. Right. Agreed. And so coming back full circle to that, you know, Hey, what do we
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do about the, what do we do about those kids who don't have the father figure there? Don't have the
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same educational opportunities. Don't have, I get it, man. That is tough. And there is a tendency to
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frame those things in a way where it's like, you leave everything else to the side to go over here to
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rescue. I wonder if the answer is not continuing to have more and more people who create and create.
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I want to see as many Apogee campuses. I want to see as many Montessori's. I want to see as many
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for like, you name it. I don't care if it doesn't have to be just be us. I want to see so much
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creation going on that inherently we start sweeping up those that are, that are theoretically getting
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left behind. And I agree. I think it's that focus on creation, man. Um, so again, department of
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education or not eliminate it. Don't go, I don't care. Let's go create more good opportunities.
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When you say create again, to go back to what you were saying earlier about defining terms,
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create is one of those catch-alls like, like a lot of terms are what specifically do you mean when you
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say create? Yeah. Um, it is opportunities for, for community, right? So you run order of man
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and I've got, you know, the Apogee program and we've got men there and then we've got, you know,
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Larry's our, our buddy's got the dad edge and Connor's got met. Like that's it. It is,
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it is providing leading in a way that provides opportunities for somebody for, for a group of
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people to come together around a common interest, a common value, not always common perspectives,
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but common interests and common values on that. And I think the more we do that in more arenas
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from, you know, all these broken systems we're talking about, you know, education, government's got
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it. They don't have any, that it is this one way right here. Here we go. Medical, you know,
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the medical system. And is this one way, here we go. We need more and more outliers that are going to
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go, no, I'm going to create a different alternative and I'm going to give people options. We talk about
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choice in a lot of times what ends up happening is, is choice isn't even a, uh, it's just default.
00:23:01.440
Like we don't actually make a choice. We're not actually given different options. And so to,
00:23:06.320
to break these systems, I think that's what we need is more and more of these opportunities
00:23:10.020
to choose something else because somebody else has provided another viable path.
00:23:18.100
Are you familiar with, um, he goes by King Randall on Twitter and some of these other social media
00:23:24.380
channels. Not that I, not that I can, yeah, no, I should make an introduction. I mean, he is doing,
00:23:30.740
yeah, I believe, I think he's in, I want to say Texas, but I could be wrong on that. So don't quote
00:23:36.620
me on that, but he was on the podcast years and years ago and he's creating, um, an environment of
00:23:43.780
learning in a format other than what we would call traditional and primarily for young black men. Uh,
00:23:50.300
and, and I, when you were talking about creating opportunities, he's fairly young himself, but
00:23:55.280
he's not only doing the educational piece, but there's real world skills that he's teaching
00:24:01.640
these young men as well. Like changing the tire on a car or changing the oil or basic electrical and
00:24:07.580
plumbing. Um, when, when you said creating opportunities, he was a person that immediately
00:24:13.420
came to mind for me. He's somebody who's creating opportunities. Another one is, um, Jason Wilson,
00:24:18.920
who has been a friend over the past couple of years. Yeah, man, you watch his videos and he's
00:24:26.180
talking with these young boys about their, their struggles, but he's doing it through the lens of
00:24:31.100
martial arts, like which you and I are obviously fans of. And Jason is as well. These are the men
00:24:36.620
who are creating opportunities outside of our traditional public schooling system.
00:24:41.040
Bingo. And there's so many of those. And it gives us a chance. What I love about that too,
00:24:45.880
is it gives us a chance, gives everybody a chance to redefine what learning means. Again,
00:24:50.500
that whole, when I said the men and the women problem, we've got this weird cultural thing
00:24:54.160
where we think, okay, well I'm done with school. So we almost equate that to I'm done learning.
00:24:58.720
And you and I both know that that's not anywhere near correct. And our lives have been crazy and rich
00:25:05.360
because we do still connect in so many areas and we do seek to grow. And we do look from other men
00:25:10.520
that are, that are mentors to us in various arenas. Right. And then we go ahead and hand that off in
00:25:15.340
return. And that, that, like, that's what growth is. And that gives us an opportunity to have that
00:25:20.520
conversation on a broader scale. Like that's it, dude. It doesn't stop. And those guys show,
00:25:26.020
they show that they give people those, those other opportunities. And it's easier for us to find those
00:25:30.860
parallels then and go, Hey mom and dad, look, there's opportunities for you too. So I, yeah,
00:25:35.100
I love anybody that is creating an environment like that. Um, I'm all for it, man. That's not a
00:25:40.460
competition thing in my head. It's stupid. It's collaborative. It's collaborative. It's helpful
00:25:45.560
to everybody. Yeah. It's helpful to everybody, man. It really is. You've got me, um, you've got
00:25:51.120
me thinking I I'm actually in the market right now for some space in my local town to put some mats in
00:25:57.560
for jujitsu, um, have a podcast studio there, have my gym equipment there, and then also have a small
00:26:03.220
archery range. So like my sweet, my escape, my man cave. But I also thought over the past several
00:26:09.140
months, like it'd be cool if I could just get some buddies together and we do this underground
00:26:12.560
fight club thing where, you know, you pitch in 20 bucks a month just to help with some of the cost
00:26:17.060
and cleaning and overhead or whatever. And then we just go beat the shit out of each other every day.
00:26:21.680
But I've never, I've actually never thought about this until this conversation,
00:26:26.760
it would actually be cool to bring in young men, maybe from the ages of, of seven or eight up to 18,
00:26:35.700
you know, that 10 years of their lives, where if they come from a household that has mom and dad,
00:26:42.000
they pay a minimal fee just to cover some of the expenses. But if they come from, and this is the
00:26:46.680
idea I just had, as you said this, if they, if it's a single mother, tuition's covered. We don't charge
00:26:55.040
single mothers because I think one of the things that single mothers deal with is of boys in particular
00:27:02.080
is they know their boys. They know that they're different. They know they don't have all of the
00:27:07.180
tools they need to raise these boys completely into fine young men, but they don't have anywhere
00:27:12.280
to go, man. They don't have any resources to turn to zero. That's right. That's right. It's a
00:27:17.400
conversation I have all the time, man. That's one of the most common, uh, outside of anything
00:27:22.220
specifically labeled education. It's maybe the most common question that I get is in DMs and things
00:27:29.100
that is from single moms going that, you know, saying that very thing. I don't know. I don't
00:27:33.380
have, my husband's not here. I don't have a brother like this. My son doesn't have an uncle
00:27:37.560
local. That's it. So I'm always asking about those very things. Cool. Where are you? What kind of
00:27:42.400
coaches do you have around you? Right. If you don't have a church connection, you don't have an
00:27:46.280
uncle, you don't have a, what kind of martial arts gyms do you have around? What kind of gyms,
00:27:49.960
what kind of coaches, what kind of sports, what kind of opportunities to get good men around him?
00:27:55.100
And those are, um, the kinds of families that, you know, our foundation we've sponsored,
00:28:01.320
I don't know, 10, 15, probably young men to go through squire program at various points,
00:28:09.460
both out in LA with B or out here in North Carolina at Kuma Latos is, you know, when he
00:28:14.740
runs them, um, we, we've sponsored 10 to 15 young men. And that's been the thing is like,
00:28:20.260
they're coming out of these homes and we're getting other men to come in and act as their
00:28:23.600
proxy, uh, cause they're coming from these single mom homes. Um, and so we all, that's
00:28:28.660
one of the ways we spend our money is, is getting those guys there and connected, man. It's so,
00:28:33.780
it's so important. Something like that would, would be fricking phenomenal, man.
00:28:38.200
I'm going to step away from that conversation very quickly. Uh, I was talking about, uh, something,
00:28:43.760
a concept with my team for our spring event last week. And we started talking about the concept
00:28:49.420
that, that boys are born and men are forged yet much of society. And maybe even some of you
00:28:55.680
listening believe that being a man is simply a birthright being a male is, but being a man requires
00:29:01.660
more. And that's why we're hosting this experience on May 1st through the 4th, 2025, because we believe
00:29:07.320
that the only way to live up to your true measure or potential as a man is twofold to be around other
00:29:12.980
men and to learn the systems other men have used to make themselves a success in the bedroom, the
00:29:18.380
living room and the boardroom. Now guys, tickets are selling fast and we want you to be one of the
00:29:23.560
elite 200 men who are going to host this inauguration experience just outside of St. Louis. And if you're
00:29:30.500
ready to forge yourself into the man you have a desire to be, then join us at themensforge.com.
00:29:37.280
That's themensforge.com. Do that right after the show, because those tickets are going to go fast.
00:29:50.140
Well, for sure. I mean, they need to know how to read and do some basic math and maybe some
00:29:58.820
But out in some science, you know, there's some, there's some basics. All right. There's some,
00:30:02.280
you're, you're, you're a former public, public educator. You understand there's some basics,
00:30:07.480
but there's so much more to it. If I can teach a kid how to be creative,
00:30:12.360
how to take calculated risks, how to work hard. Yeah. The math shit's easy, man. That's two plus
00:30:18.580
two is four. It doesn't take long to learn. And so that's always one of those things is what are
00:30:23.960
the meta skills? And that's what we call the meta skills or what are the things that matter to all
00:30:28.820
people of all time? Period. End of story. Your physical health is a meta skill that matters. You're
00:30:35.200
in your body. You're a human being. You need to make sure you can keep your body healthy, man,
00:30:39.440
woman, whatever age, it doesn't matter. So that's a meta skill. Being able to communicate
00:30:43.860
in some regard is a meta skill. Very basic math is a meta skill. And so anything else outside of that
00:30:50.900
is more, what do you need? What do you want? Like, what do you desire? Right? So there's the meta
00:30:56.360
skills everybody needs. And then there's the, what do you desire? And that's what education is all
00:30:59.280
about. It's the combination of those two things. And those things that you're saying, the basic
00:31:03.240
understanding of math, the ability to read, that's great. That's a precursor to the ability to think
00:31:09.120
and write and all of the, everything else that comes out of that science. What do we really need
00:31:13.560
out of science? You need the ability to implement the scientific method and actually think critically
00:31:18.380
and make an observation and make a, you know, a guess on something and then reflect on that and
00:31:23.780
change your mind. Like you need those things. When do you need them by is always a question. And how,
00:31:28.940
how quickly do you get it? And how do you best get it? Those things happen really damn quick when
00:31:32.820
somebody is ready. The things you're talking about, that creativity, that work ethic, those are some
00:31:38.960
things that are built over a long period of time. And they're most easily built by being around, by
00:31:43.700
having it be normal, being around people that are doing that. You start bringing young guys in,
00:31:48.480
then they're around you and anybody else that's attracted to that kind of stuff. The work ethic
00:31:53.240
stuff is going to come through that creativity, those conversations, it's, that's going to just be
00:31:58.780
normal for them. And that's what you're seeking. Emily, you know, Jakey,
00:32:02.320
Jakey, GK. My brain gets going too fast for my mouth. GK Chesterton has one of my favorite quotes
00:32:10.740
of all time. And he talks about how education really has nothing to do with subjects. It is
00:32:15.740
the transfer of a way of life from one entity to another. That's it. So you have so much potential
00:32:25.900
to impact so many people just by doing exactly what you're talking about doing right there. Massive.
00:32:33.500
I, uh, I commend you for having a brain that works faster than your mouth. I have a mouth that works
00:32:38.260
faster than my brain. So I think you're on the better side of that equation.
00:32:42.980
That's what makes the world go around, brother. I love it.
00:32:48.360
Uh, you know, I'm glad you're talking, like, I didn't actually think that we'd be having this
00:32:52.300
discussion. I don't really, I have some veins and some things I want to explore when I have
00:32:57.080
conversations, but now I'm all fired up on starting this thing. And I'm thinking about names and costs
00:33:02.800
and getting other people involved. And now I'm completely fired up on something else other than
00:33:09.040
But that's so good, man. And I'll go anywhere you want to go, but I really think that's something
00:33:12.920
worth exploring. And I don't, you know, by please, by no means am I trying to, there's a million
00:33:19.200
different ways to be educated. And so I just want to make this point. It is not a shameless plug promo
00:33:25.140
kind of thing. But when I'm talking to our affiliates about opening an Apogee campus,
00:33:29.880
one of the things we try to get everybody's mind wrapped around is the fact that education looks so
00:33:35.000
many different ways. It doesn't just look like school. So they have a choice. We provide curriculum
00:33:41.900
and support around what we call these buckets. And then they're picking and choosing what buckets
00:33:47.540
they want to implement. So we have the whole academic section. Great. If you want to plug that
00:33:52.780
in, plug that in. Hey, there's also this partnership we have with physiology first. That's all around the
00:33:58.260
exercise and the physiology, but also somebody knows how to be a healthy human. Plug that in.
00:34:02.780
There's the communication piece that talks about Socratic conversations, effective communication,
00:34:07.840
speech, debate, logic, rhetoric, logical fallacies, being able to, to, to really articulate your point
00:34:14.380
of view, right? Like that's a bucket in and of itself. So you can offer that thing to like, that's it.
00:34:19.960
You're piecing together some very important parts of that, that physical, you know, that physical
00:34:25.820
component altogether. But even if you have a podcast studio in there, then you get a young man who just
00:34:31.240
gets to come be part of that creative and just be part of that. It doesn't mean you're teaching
00:34:35.500
him. He's got to be a podcast guy, but he's an apprentice on a creative outlet. And you'll be
00:34:39.620
able to impact so many things because he'll have a purpose. He'll be able to go towards something
00:34:43.340
and that'll either lead them further down that path or it'll offshoot a little bit here, but it
00:34:47.200
doesn't start without you working with them. I think it's rad, dude. I hope you do it.
00:34:50.480
Yeah. Well, I will do it. Like when I start for better or worse, when I start thinking
00:34:56.900
about a thing, I go and that's cost me a lot of time on some things that haven't been in
00:35:04.440
good ideas. I don't think this is one of those though.
00:35:06.820
Yeah, but yeah, exactly. And this is, it's always, it's also been the thing that has made
00:35:10.800
it so that you've impacted so many humans. So that's a good thing.
00:35:13.720
What, um, what do you, what do you think about men and their ability to connect with
00:35:20.960
other men? I, I, I see a big problem in society today is that we're so isolated and we operate
00:35:28.920
in these little eco chambers where it's, you know, I'm, I'm the dad and I talk with my kids
00:35:34.080
at two hours at night and maybe 30 minutes in the morning if I'm lucky. And then I go to
00:35:38.640
work and I'm wearing this separate hat and, but I'm so isolated from everything else.
00:35:43.720
That we're not actually having discussions like you and I are having right now where
00:35:51.060
I agree, man. It is. It's a, it's a huge issue. And we see that. I'm sure you see it
00:35:54.460
a lot too with the men that, you know, in, in order of man. And we've had this conversation
00:35:58.480
a lot recently on the apogee side too, where even guys, even guys within our groups are like,
00:36:05.800
Hey, and I live, you know, here, wherever this is. And I feel that I love this, these groups,
00:36:12.880
these discussions, these conversations, we share the same values. We can come at it from
00:36:17.260
different perspectives. We remain curious, which is, I think a big part of what gets lost
00:36:21.780
the, the bravery that it takes to be curious and ask questions. I know you and I agree on
00:36:27.100
a million different things. I know you and I also disagree on some things and that's fricking
00:36:31.580
rad, but we have a lot of the same values and we get along really, really well. And I think
00:36:36.160
that's great. We can make each other better because of all those things being true. And I see so
00:36:41.320
many men that are, that are, if they're not joining something or, or attending something that allows
00:36:49.280
for them to have that they're burning out because they feel, they feel alone. They feel alone. A lot
00:36:56.440
of our guys are just recognizing that that's what they have felt like because now they're having this.
00:37:02.460
So it was making them aware of a loneliness that they were just so immersed in. They didn't even
00:37:07.120
realize like a fish in water, right? Where it's like, you go, okay, you're in water. And it's
00:37:11.060
like, what are you even talking about? I didn't even realize I was there. Cause I'm just immersed
00:37:13.620
in it. There are so many men who are just immersed in this loneliness. So they don't even recognize
00:37:17.960
that they're lonely until they go connect with these other men. And then they're like, Holy shit.
00:37:24.020
Okay. I've been pretty lonely for a long fricking time. I didn't even realize how much I needed this.
00:37:29.760
And that's what we're seeing over and over. I'm sure you're seeing the same thing.
00:37:32.640
Well, I would also add the moment, not only is when they realize how alone they were is when
00:37:40.300
they're not alone anymore, but also when something catastrophic happens. Sure. You know, they go
00:37:45.980
through a divorce, they go through a bankruptcy, loss of job, medical diagnosis. And all of a sudden
00:37:51.080
it's like, I need help immediately. And they look around, they're like, shit, nobody's here.
00:37:57.360
Nobody to turn to. That's a scary thing, man. It's a scary thing.
00:38:02.480
You know, we don't want anybody obviously to get to that, to that place. And I think one of the
00:38:07.640
interesting opportunities for us, um, I was going to say, you know, one of the interesting
00:38:13.980
problems to solve or up to, but it's an opportunity is to get more men to realize the value of that
00:38:21.140
before they get to a catastrophic, you know, standpoint. What do you think though? I have my
00:38:27.120
own thoughts, but what do you think are the biggest inhibitors of that where, you know,
00:38:34.100
obviously we're intimately familiar with the heartache and frustration of life and being in
00:38:39.140
those desperate times. But what do you think accelerates the isolation in either good times
00:38:48.000
or times where they're just okay, which is, I think where most people are, it's just okay.
00:38:54.400
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think there's, I think there's probably a couple of things I think, and it's
00:38:59.000
an interesting thing to think about. Um, and I'll, I'll keep wrestling with this afterwards too. Um,
00:39:05.880
there is, uh, we, we, we tell ourselves really, really good lies. I do believe that's a big part
00:39:14.000
of human nature, men in particular, as we were really, really eloquent with the lies that we tell
00:39:20.080
ourselves. Uh, we do a good job that whatever, wherever we're at, like that is the, you know,
00:39:26.840
there's honor in staying the same. There's honor in being the guy where somebody can be like, Ryan,
00:39:31.320
man, I knew you back when, you know, we were teenagers and dude, you've never changed. And there's
00:39:35.380
like, there's honor in that, right? Like there's, yeah, man, I'm the guy that stays, you know,
00:39:39.660
which is man, you're under no obligation to be the same person as you were. But when you started
00:39:43.680
this fricking, just this conversation alone, nevermind. Well, I think you're under an obligation
00:39:48.740
to be different actually, if anything, I agree. I think it's very much that way. I think we are
00:39:54.300
absolutely obligated. If we're called to lead at all, including ourselves, we need to, we need to
00:39:59.880
look different. I am, I will be embarrassed if I look the same as I did even a fricking year ago.
00:40:05.380
Like I will be embarrassed, right? I'm obligated to get better. So I think we do a good job of
00:40:10.100
lying to ourselves there. I also think we, we do a good job. I don't think we're immune from the
00:40:16.340
same distractions that our boys face right now, right? Our boys have a lot of distractions
00:40:23.480
that are dangerous to me because they check off this DNA desire that men have of, of action and of
00:40:32.980
adventure and the whole princess thing. And you know, a lot of things that John Eldridge talks
00:40:36.720
about in his book and all that, right? But you've got all these distractions, video games being a huge
00:40:41.020
one where you can check off and again, play video games all you fricking want, whatever. But I think
00:40:45.640
it's a dangerous thing for young men sometimes. And I've talked to young men about this.
00:40:49.380
They check off all that adventure and that sense of accomplishment and then they get done and the
00:40:57.740
dopamine's drained and they're like, whew, okay, I don't really want to go out and accomplish anything
00:41:02.300
in the real world right now. That's a lot harder. It's not as cool looking. It's not as sexy. And then
00:41:07.860
they're perpetuating that isolation. I think that's still available for men too, whether it's video
00:41:13.500
games, whether it's television, whether it's porn, whether it's they're checking off all of these
00:41:18.360
things, man, um, that, that it's hitting some sort of primal need, but it's not really hitting the
00:41:26.020
primal need. And it's just perpetuating that isolation. I think it's a really good question
00:41:29.820
to ponder. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't have the answers. I get distracted just like everybody else
00:41:36.740
does, you know, but I think that purpose and the mission that's beyond and above myself is what
00:41:44.880
even in moments of temptation, distraction, keep me focused on what I ought to be doing or what I've
00:41:50.120
identified I should be doing. You bet. So these men that are feeling lonely and feeling isolated,
00:41:55.520
maybe we've got a purpose problem, right? Which again, maybe, maybe church used to help solve that.
00:42:01.540
Maybe it didn't, maybe the, but what is, how do we get them purpose again?
00:42:04.760
How, how do you though? Are there some thoughts that you have? Because this is obviously a,
00:42:10.040
it is a crisis in the truest sense of the word that men are lacking purpose and direction in their
00:42:14.580
lives. Is it just being around other motivated and ambitious men? I mean, that's part of it.
00:42:19.880
Or is there more to it? Well, how is purpose achieved? You know, I don't think I'm not a big fan
00:42:24.740
of the, the concept of we find our purpose or, or helping somebody find their passion or find,
00:42:30.760
I don't, I don't believe that. I believe we forge it. And I've always said, that's why it's part of
00:42:35.740
the, I love the name of the event that we have coming up because I do believe that I believe you
00:42:42.060
forge a purpose. And so the question then becomes, how do you get somebody brave enough to just start
00:42:47.360
for it? It doesn't have to be the thing you're not. I don't believe men automatically go, this is
00:42:52.620
what it is. And I'm going to forge it right now. I think you just need to forge something and let that
00:42:58.320
inform you. So yeah, it is a, it's a really good question of how do we entice men to start creating
00:43:05.100
and, or how do we, um, that is the question. And yes, I think good men around you is a huge part of
00:43:13.600
that. It's the, you know, the whole five people, you're, you know, that whole thing. I believe
00:43:18.280
that's true. And it's the five books that you read most. It's the five television programs. It's
00:43:21.720
the five songs. It's the five, it's the five fricking everything. And I think having good men around
00:43:25.700
you is a huge, it's a huge push for, for men. I, uh, I was watching the last samurai either last
00:43:35.000
night or the night before. It's one of my favorite. Have you seen it? No, but I've heard that's
00:43:39.040
killer. Oh, you should watch. It's one of my top five favorite movies. You should definitely watch
00:43:43.400
it. Um, and Tom Cruise. Yep. Tom Cruise's character. I think his name is Captain Algren,
00:43:50.480
I think is what his name is. And the premise of the movie is that he's, he's a conflicted soul
00:43:57.020
because he fought in the civil war and, um, he ends up being captured by the samurais. And I think
00:44:08.920
his name is Katsumoto is the character and, uh, Katsumoto Katsumoto is a samurai in a, in a,
00:44:16.060
in a brave, you know, warrior. And to your point about being like the other people that you're
00:44:22.200
around, it ends up being a situation where Captain Algren's character becomes, starts to heal
00:44:29.200
through the relationship that he has with his captor who ends up being a very righteous and
00:44:35.120
virtuous warrior. Um, it's just interesting. Cause I think we, as men resonate with movies like that,
00:44:41.560
uh, and you know, gladiator, um, Braveheart, Patriot. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yep.
00:44:52.340
We resonate with that, but then we don't, we just don't do it in our own lives because I think
00:44:57.160
partially because it doesn't happen in a two hour timeframe. We do. We asked. And it's not quite as
00:45:03.700
dramatic. And I kind of feel like our lives would be better if all of us had theme music wherever we
00:45:09.940
went, like our theme music would play, but we don't have that in real life. And so it's not as
00:45:14.620
dramatic and amazing as this, as cinema might be. Bro. Uh, there's so many things that's so funny
00:45:20.700
that you're breaking. We didn't talk about this prior to you too, but we do, we suck at patients.
00:45:24.700
We're absolutely fricking horrible at patients. Um, you're talking about this theme, you know,
00:45:29.880
we're talking about Braveheart, talking about theme music. I get made fun of at home because
00:45:35.140
everywhere, especially if I'm out on the farm and doing stuff, but everywhere I go,
00:45:39.040
unless I am in a conversation like this, I've got my phone on me and I have music playing and it's
00:45:46.580
music to, to set the tone and set the mood of whatever I'm going to go into. If it is just a
00:45:52.860
day of work here at the computer, I have the Braveheart theme song. It plays the entire day,
00:45:57.080
the entire day while I'm working on stuff. And then it goes off when I'm, when I'm having a
00:46:01.240
conversation. And then when I'm out in the farm, depending on what's happening, like if I'm
00:46:04.540
chopping trees, you know, the soundtrack might change, but it's going to go to one of these
00:46:09.020
other things that impacted us. Cause I think culturally, this was interesting too. It'll go
00:46:12.200
to like, you know, the Rocky montages and some of this stuff, like right from like when we grew up.
00:46:18.240
Um, and I do that to set my mind into that. And I do think that's a powerful thing, man. That's
00:46:23.380
interesting. Um, and that's part of consumption. It's part of the top five, whatever. It's that same
00:46:28.580
concept of what you're feeding yourself and expecting from yourself, you know, out of that. Um,
00:46:34.380
and you just, you end up making that normal. That's the beauty of relationships is, is when
00:46:38.700
you have those people, what you make normal is normal. I always say my kids speak English
00:46:43.780
because I fricking speak English. They speak English. That's not that right. It's like
00:46:49.020
that they don't speak Chinese cause I don't fricking speak it and I've never spoken it and
00:46:52.840
I've never spoken it around them. So they don't either. Right. So that's normal. I do believe
00:46:57.720
we are, we're complex creatures, but things like that are that simple. So it's normal to have
00:47:04.340
it's normal for me to have these kinds of conversations like we're having now because
00:47:08.760
I talk with you at least, you know, one I talk with you usually at least every week. Um,
00:47:14.540
and we have these conversations once every couple of weeks. And then we go talk to other
00:47:19.460
guys who are in this space or who are creating and who it's normal to us now. And guys need
00:47:26.580
that. I think it's, um, it's a testament to the power of being intentional. Yeah, man.
00:47:34.560
You know, if I were to ask the average listener or men who are inside of our groups to describe
00:47:41.460
their friends, the people, the men in particular, who they spend the most amount of time with,
00:47:48.140
I, I think it would be a lot of losers. I think it would be a lot of average players. I think it
00:47:54.920
would be a lot of people they went to high school with and never gave the relationship
00:47:58.480
a second thought after the last 20, 30 years. And if there's one thing I wish that more men
00:48:04.640
would do is they would be more deliberate and intentional about who they're spending their
00:48:09.600
time with. I, you don't owe anything to your high school buddy. That's right. You don't owe
00:48:15.220
anything to your loser brother-in-law who is just in your life because you happen to find his
00:48:20.720
sister attractive. Like, but those are, those are the relationships that we often have is just by
00:48:29.400
default. And we don't really design out or map out or even invest in the relationship that like,
00:48:36.120
for example, you and I have, or the guy that you go to the gym with or the conference that you attend
00:48:40.520
or the program that you sign up for. It's unfortunate, but a lot of guys just don't do that.
00:48:46.160
Brother, you're spot on and it's a life by default, right? And it's like a, because that allows us to
00:48:53.700
take, it allows us to, to not take responsibility. It allows us to always have somebody else we can
00:48:59.340
point the finger at because by default, I've had a very clearly defined, you know, steps one through
00:49:05.520
10 to a life of slavery, but at least I knew what I was getting. And I could always point to somebody
00:49:09.680
else and say, damn it, if they would only, this would have made my life better. Right. Versus the
00:49:14.600
undefined path to sovereignty, to freedom, which is always undefined and always requires responsibility
00:49:22.100
and always goes at the end of the day, you got to be able to point to yourself and go, well, I fucked
00:49:25.640
that up or I made that. You've got to have, you got to have that. And that's, that's way scarier for
00:49:31.380
so many guys. So, so true. But it's, it's, it's also interesting though, because if you're the one
00:49:37.760
who fucked it up, you're the one who can fix it. Bingo. If you're not the one who messed it up,
00:49:43.560
there's nothing you can do about it. Bingo. Yep. But, but that for so, so many guys is,
00:49:48.040
I think it's equally as terrifying sometimes. I'm the one that can fix it. And then that very
00:49:53.120
quickly turns into shit. That means I'm the one that has to fix it. And again, they're back and
00:49:56.760
that's, that's the fear. Well, why is that terrifying? I mean, I don't feel that way, but I've also
00:50:01.580
cultivated that over decades of, of my life. And I know you don't, but why do so many men feel that way?
00:50:07.040
Yeah. Why is that terrifying? Yeah. Isn't that, isn't that an interesting question? Like,
00:50:11.060
why is that terrifying? Why do we lean so heavily into fear? And I, and I, you know, recently I've
00:50:16.500
been trying to work through that too recently. And it's like my default, I know my, because of my,
00:50:22.420
my background, I'll default to, well, you know, school's a huge part of it. And maybe it is
00:50:26.400
where you automatically hand over the pen to your own story quickly. You know, it's, you learn very
00:50:31.960
quickly that you're just here to, you're here to play somebody else's game and they're going to tell
00:50:35.480
you when to do it and how to do it. And like, you learn very quickly that that's a thing. So I do
00:50:40.240
think there's, there's an element of that, but dude, it goes back so much further. Um, you know,
00:50:45.100
you look at, you look at, at the Exodus movement and you look at, you know, Moses taking the people
00:50:52.360
out of the slavery and they're still going, it didn't take long. And they're like, ah, we want to
00:50:56.640
kill that guy. God, you're right here with us. But if you could shut up, like that would be great.
00:51:01.500
You know, and it's like, man, there's something about our nature that wants to be, um, that wants
00:51:07.200
to be lazy sometimes and wants to just be taken care of and not have that responsibility.
00:51:12.780
And that, that to me is the bigger question. Why did, why is that even fricking in there?
00:51:19.520
It's, it's, I'm kind of at a loss for words. Cause it's hard for me to resonate with. Like I get
00:51:24.120
tired and lazy at times. And then my, my, um, my ambition gets the better of me where it's like,
00:51:31.560
okay, well I can, I can, I've certainly have the right to be lazy. I can certainly be lazy. I've
00:51:36.800
been relatively successful with my career and you know, things at times in my life. And I happen to
00:51:43.380
be on one of those times right now where things seem to be firing well. Um, so I, I can take it easy,
00:51:48.460
but I just, I'm not interested in what everybody else is in. I'm interested in more, you know, I,
00:51:54.580
I don't. And therefore I realized I need to do more. I need to get up. And I like last night I
00:51:59.680
was sitting down watching a movie, just kind of hanging out. And I'm like, okay, I just had dinner.
00:52:04.940
I'm like, cool. I'm just going to lay here and like fall asleep on the couch. I'm like,
00:52:08.240
the hell you are, get up and go to the gym. And so I went into the gym and I ran two miles,
00:52:13.540
but I don't, I don't really know why I wish I could tell you why. Cause I think then we could
00:52:19.620
begin to explore it for other men. I don't know why it's how do you cultivate that in others?
00:52:26.980
Right. And then as dads, how do we cultivate, like, how do we recognize where our, our kids are
00:52:34.380
in that too? What is their nature? Are they, are they of the nature of like, let's go do more
00:52:39.840
or are they more like, they're not fucking, I'm going to sleep on the couch. And then how do we
00:52:43.680
lead them? And now we do either. It's a fast. Yeah. It's a fascinating, it's a fascinating question,
00:52:49.840
man. Do you see that in your kids? Which do you see them taking after you on the, like, let's go get
00:52:54.980
more. To be fair, I see it in my oldest particularly, but I think to be fair, that's probably most true
00:53:06.000
because him and I are very much in alignment with our hobbies and interests. Yeah. But my second son,
00:53:14.260
my daughter, um, they like, we're not aligned in our interests. Yeah. So they, sometimes I interpret
00:53:23.320
them being uninterested in what I am as laziness, but I don't think it is because I also see them
00:53:28.440
Excel, my daughter with dance. I mean, and not something that resonates deeply with me, but she
00:53:36.560
is on fire about dance. Um, my second son, he loves to draw. Uh, he's really into sneakers. He's really
00:53:45.480
into cars, not things I'm particularly interested in. So I could say, well, you're being lazy because
00:53:50.960
you don't want to go play sports, but I don't, he's not lazy when it comes to that stuff. Right.
00:53:56.040
So then as the default setting of, of people, not laziness, but we got to find out what they are
00:54:03.080
not wanting to be fired up by what are they fired up by? Right. And I think that's the beauty of when
00:54:09.780
I talk about education, I am not talking about schools. I'm talking about leading yourself to
00:54:15.240
get better and leading others to get better. And, and there are those meta skills, your son,
00:54:21.200
your daughter that aren't, don't have particularly aligned interests. There are still those meta
00:54:26.360
skills that matter. The physical health part, there's all that stuff, but it can manifest in
00:54:30.840
different ways. And then the interesting part of educator, that word is to draw out is drawing out
00:54:35.940
what's uniquely exciting to them. You said educator, educator. Is that Latin? Yeah. Yeah. It's,
00:54:44.920
it's, it's, there's edu, educare and educere. And, and so it's like the one is, is like a drawing out
00:54:51.420
of the natural, um, you know, excitement and the natural capabilities of a human. And the other one
00:54:57.320
is more of like a, a scaffolding then from the outside kind of deal, which again, I believe is
00:55:01.980
what education is, right? It's the, the framework for how to learn or what? It's a framework for how
00:55:07.940
we're designed. And so it's just a framework for looking at, okay, does Ryan right now, is he needing,
00:55:14.920
something from the outside, some sort of outside pressure, um, some sort of outside instruction,
00:55:21.360
some sort of outside guidance where he can now be the apprentice to somebody who is a mentor,
00:55:26.800
a master and is going to, to, to pull that. Or is it something that is uniquely inside of him
00:55:34.240
that I can see that he doesn't yet know. And I've got to try to draw it out somehow. I've got to try to
00:55:40.300
give an experience somehow to draw out what's already there. He's just got it covered up.
00:55:46.400
Are you familiar with Joseph Campbell's, The Hero's Journey?
00:55:51.220
That's what I hear you talking about is, you know, if, if guys aren't familiar with The Hero's
00:55:55.500
Journey, it's the thread line for every great movie, like Last Samurai or The Patriot or whatever.
00:56:01.340
It's this external conflict that we immediately recognize, but underlying is this internal conflict
00:56:11.540
that we have. And then we hit rock bottom and we're introduced to a mentor who gives us a new
00:56:17.220
perspective in the way that we look at things. And by solving the external crisis, we end up solving
00:56:24.440
That's right. That's exactly it. And then that cycle continues because The Hero's Journey is always
00:56:29.000
put in like a circular fashion. And I think he's got like a 12, it's like 12 specific steps,
00:56:33.780
right? And so then you solve those crises and then you come back and, and you, I don't remember what
00:56:40.620
he calls it. It's something like the, you know, something to do with the elixir and then coming back
00:56:44.560
in. And so like, you come back to actually then serve with this new found understanding, right?
00:56:50.920
As the new mentor for somebody else. And you start interesting there. Right. And so I wasn't
00:56:57.120
familiar with that portion of it, but that's interesting, which is, which is great. And then
00:57:00.820
you can, in theory, start again, new, new, new crisis, new thing, new, you know, you can,
00:57:06.860
it's a circular, it's a circular representation. The matrix is as cliche as, as those movie references
00:57:13.580
get, that really is focused on that hero's journey cycle. I mean, very much. I mean,
00:57:19.860
I think about it with my own personal situation, you know, with my divorce and, and the relationship
00:57:25.760
and, and how that's gone over the past. That's an external crisis. Anybody who's ever gone
00:57:31.600
through that understands the external crisis that that can be. And as I was working on solving
00:57:37.220
that, not to the degree that I wish I would have, I learned a lot about myself. And in that
00:57:42.680
painful, very painful process became a better man internally because of the external crisis I was
00:57:52.420
confronted with. That's right. And, and you had to reflect on that to, to choose to learn the lessons
00:57:57.600
of that too, because there are guys that don't choose to learn the lessons of that. And it still,
00:58:01.860
it stays with the finger pointing out here, but you're choosing to learn that. And knowing you,
00:58:06.000
you'll also take those lessons and you'll go help somebody else. You'll help your own kids.
00:58:09.340
You'll help other men who are going through similar things, right? The cycle continues.
00:58:13.960
Yeah. That's cool, man. Yeah. Interesting, man. I love our discussions. I love our conversations.
00:58:19.380
You got me thinking about new things and I'm sure that everybody in my life is going to be really,
00:58:23.760
really grateful sarcastically to you that you got me fired up about this initiative of
00:58:28.760
this, uh, boys club or whatever. I don't know what we call it, but I'm kind of fired up about that.
00:58:35.460
I'm so excited for you, man. I really, and let me know how I can help on that.
00:58:39.840
Oh, I will. Yeah. Trust me. I will. You will be hearing from me.
00:58:44.240
I think that's fricking awesome. No, I love it.
00:58:47.800
Well, Matt, we've got this event, man. I'm so excited to be partnered up with you. It's coming
00:58:51.600
up in May, May 1st through the 4th. It's themensforge.com. And, and I think a lot of what
00:58:56.080
we're talking about speaks to the deliberateness and intentionality of surrounding yourself with other
00:59:01.900
men who get you thinking about life differently. I've, I've had that happen in the past hour that
00:59:07.900
we've talked about. And of course I've had this a countless amount of times as you and I have
00:59:12.000
built our friendship. Um, but I, I hope, I hope people can come out because these are the types
00:59:17.480
of conversations that we're all going to be privy to if they do. Yeah. You know, when we were all
00:59:22.180
meeting and talking yesterday, um, you know, we were talking about that, the concept of forging and
00:59:28.240
forging these relationships and forging that, that purpose and forging that path forward,
00:59:33.280
be kind of being this through line for all of us that are taking different angles on that. What
00:59:38.600
does it look like to, to forge, you know, from a creative standpoint, from the entrepreneurial
00:59:43.120
standpoint, from the husband standpoint, from the fatherhood standpoint, like it's all of that.
00:59:48.080
But the word you use, I mean, and again, I love the, I love the forge being used as, as what we're
00:59:53.820
doing. But the word we're talking about a lot today is that intentionality. It's really that
00:59:57.860
that's the through line. Like you said, it's the intentionality in all of those areas. And so
01:00:03.120
I'm excited about it too, man. Cause it's, it's, it'll help people who maybe feel lonely.
01:00:07.660
Maybe they don't, but it's putting you around a bunch of really good guys. Um, and my heart,
01:00:15.340
and I know it's yours too, is it's not just a man. Cool. That was a great reset. That's a part of it,
01:00:20.100
but also having some things to then go be intentional about and to go implement, to keep that hero's
01:00:27.140
journey cycle going so that you take something away from this, that you did not have before.
01:00:32.440
And now you can go pass that on to your family, to your community, you know, and I know we got
01:00:37.000
guys that are all focused on that. So I'm pumped for it, man. Yeah. It's going to be amazing. Yeah.
01:00:42.360
Well, cool. We'll tell the guys how to connect with you, learn a little bit more about what
01:00:45.480
you're up to. And then obviously, you know, we'll link it all up to themensforge.com. So guys can have
01:00:50.760
conversations with you, with me, we'll sit around the campfire, we'll do some jujitsu,
01:00:55.420
we'll throw some axes. Uh, we'll hear from some great speakers, but these are the kind of
01:00:59.700
conversations we'll be having. The best man. I'm pumped for it. Yeah. Um, really anything we're
01:01:04.500
doing, man, Apogee strong is the way to go. Um, that'll point you anywhere and everywhere. So
01:01:08.720
apogeestrong.com, you know, Apogee program on social media, you can always find me at my name and
01:01:13.580
that's easy too. But, um, what we're doing, the mission it's all through Apogee strong.
01:01:19.700
Awesome, Matt. I appreciate you, brother. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today.
01:01:26.120
Man, there you go. Mr. Matt Boudreau as a repeat guest, I'm sure that you have enjoyed my
01:01:31.620
conversations with Matt in the past, and I'm sure and hope that you enjoyed this one. Uh, make sure
01:01:36.460
to connect with Matt on the gram or X or Facebook, wherever you do your social media scrolling.
01:01:43.440
Also, if you want to meet Matt in person and me as well, probably more Matt than me, I get it.
01:01:48.060
Then go to themensforge.com. We're going to be talking about not only these issues, but other issues
01:01:54.080
with Larry Hagner from the dad edge, Connor Beaton with man talks, uh, Matt Vincent with
01:01:59.540
not dead yet. Dr. Robert Glover, Sathia Sam overcoming pornography addiction. We've got,
01:02:04.840
like I said earlier, a powerhouse lineup. And I want you there. That's themensforge.com. That
01:02:10.580
is your only marching order for today. Get signed up for that immediately. Lock in that
01:02:14.980
spot. I think we have a few VIP spots left, but not very many. That's at themensforge.com.
01:02:20.440
All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for our, ask me anything until then go out there,
01:02:25.280
take action and become the man you are meant to be.
01:02:31.660
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your
01:02:35.960
life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.