Order of Man - MATT GUTMAN ｜ When Anxiety Attacks

00:00:00.000 If you've never experienced an anxiety attack, it's hard to articulate the sense of fear and

00:00:04.920 dread that one can elicit. It wasn't until earlier this year when I experienced an anxiety attack

00:00:10.100 for myself that I fully realized how difficult it can be to understand what's going on and process

00:00:16.060 it all. My guest today is ABC News Chief National Correspondent Matt Gutman and the author of No

00:00:22.540 Time to Panic, How I Curbed My Anxiety and Conquered a Lifetime of Panic Attacks. We talk

00:00:28.200 about destigmatizing men's mental health issues, what anxiety truly is, and how to curb it when it

00:00:34.080 sneaks up, powerful mindfulness techniques you can use to stay present in the moment, SSRIs for the

00:00:41.200 use of anxiety and stress, and ridding yourself of the shame that can be a primary driver of anxiety.

00:00:47.360 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your

00:00:52.420 own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not

00:00:58.120 easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:05.300 This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call

00:01:10.620 yourself a man. Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. I am your host and the founder of

00:01:15.720 this movement. My name is Ryan Michler, and I'm glad you're here and tuning in and joining us and

00:01:19.960 banding with us on our mission to reclaim and restore masculinity. And I do that primarily through

00:01:24.760 this podcast where we're having conversations with gentlemen like Matt Guttman, my guest today,

00:01:30.240 but we've also had Chris Williamson and Cameron Haynes and Jocko Willink and David Goggins and Terry

00:01:35.400 Cruz and Tim Tebow and Tim Kennedy and almost a thousand other men at this point. So we've been

00:01:43.880 going for almost 10 years, and that's a testament to the guys who have joined on this podcast and

00:01:49.380 imparted their wisdom with us. And it's a testament to you and the work that you want to do as a

00:01:53.740 husband, father, business owner, and community leader. So I'm very glad you're tuning in. I'm

00:01:57.960 going to get into the show in just a minute. Very quickly, I want to introduce you, if you don't

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00:02:06.800 they are sponsors, but they're only sponsors because I've met them, I spend time with them,

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00:02:44.080 MontanaKnifeCompany.com. Use the code ORDEROFMAN, all one word, ORDEROFMAN at checkout when you do.

00:02:51.340 Again, MontanaKnifeCompany.com. All right, guys, let me introduce to my guest. His name,

00:02:56.940 again, is Matt Guttman. He's ABC News' chief national correspondent and the author of No Time

00:03:01.780 to Panic, How I Curbed My Anxiety and Conquered a Lifetime of Panic Attacks. In it, Matt offers his

00:03:08.520 own look at his mental health struggles and behind the scenes while being on air covering

00:03:13.840 some of the nation's biggest stories. And you really wouldn't know it based on what we've seen

00:03:19.080 of him, but he's carved out an incredible career reporting from war zones and natural disasters

00:03:24.880 before millions of viewers on shows like Good Morning America, World News Tonight, and 2020.

00:03:30.380 But in January of 2020, mid-panic, he misstated some facts of a story. It led to a month-long suspension,

00:03:38.080 a lot of shame around that, regret in keeping his struggles a secret, and he began a personal

00:03:43.340 journey into the science and treatment of panic attacks. And he's since then gone on and worked

00:03:49.100 with the world's most foremost scholars on anxiety and childhood trauma who taught him that his

00:03:57.260 perception of a panic attack needed recalibration. So he's worked with therapists and shamans and he's

00:04:02.880 done group treatment and cognitive behavioral therapy to ayahuasca and psilocybin and everywhere

00:04:09.580 in between. So whether this affects you or not to varying degrees or other people in your life,

00:04:15.200 this is going to be a powerful, powerful episode and conversation. I hope you enjoy.

00:04:20.500 Matt, thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

00:04:22.740 Thanks, Ryan. It's good to be with you.

00:04:24.940 Yeah, I think this is an important discussion. I would have blown this discussion off about a year

00:04:29.660 ago. But I actually had a panic attack. And I did not realize the significance and the physiological

00:04:39.160 response of a panic attack until that happened. And it was scary. And it blew my mind. And I realized,

00:04:46.620 oh, this is actually a real thing. Pretty wild.

00:04:51.060 First, I'm just sorry to hear that you had a panic attack. That's,

00:04:53.760 it sucks. It's painful. It's excruciatingly uncomfortable. And it's something that one

00:05:01.300 never forgets. Can I ask what happened?

00:05:07.520 Yeah, I, well, there was a lot going on personally, you know, as, as, and a lot of guys who know,

00:05:14.380 or listen to the podcast know, I dealt with alcohol abuse and went through a divorce last year. And

00:05:19.100 it became, it became a little overwhelming. And I was going to pick up my kids, or I did, I actually

00:05:27.540 did pick up my kids. And I noticed this, like, my heart started beating, my, my, my stomach started

00:05:34.700 hurting, just like horribly hurting. And I was gonna take, I was gonna pick up my son from baseball

00:05:39.660 practice, I picked him up. And I'm not feeling great. And I told my son, I said, hey, let's go get

00:05:45.120 Jimmy John's, I was gonna make him dinner. I'm like, let's go get Jimmy John's. Like, I can't, I'm not in the

00:05:48.780 mood to make dinner tonight. And I was about to drive into the drive through line at Jimmy

00:05:53.380 John's. And I'm like, you know what, I better not do this. Because if I get in here, and a car gets

00:05:57.800 behind me, I won't be able to leave. And I knew something was seriously wrong. So I called my ex,

00:06:04.140 their, their mom, and I said, hey, something's going on. Can I bring the kids by, I'm gonna go

00:06:09.280 to the Instacare. And she said, yeah, bring him by. So I brought the kids by and went in there.

00:06:13.400 And it was, like I said, this physiological response. And it took me a little bit of time to calm

00:06:17.900 down and get my wits about me again. But it was an unreal experience that I had never had before.

00:06:24.240 I'm so sorry, man. It's really scary. I mean, first of all, so what is a panic attack, right? It's

00:06:32.980 your brain, right? And your amygdala specifically, which are these like almond sized nodes, like right

00:06:39.520 in the center of your brain, that people call the reptilian part of your brain. It's like one of the

00:06:43.700 oldest parts of brain structure, period. Like it's reptilian because the dinosaurs had it and

00:06:49.680 they weren't brainiacs. But it registers a threat, right? So like stuff is going on in your life. And

00:06:56.260 for some reason, your brain is registering a threat and not like a minor threat. This is like life and

00:07:01.640 death crap, right? Like if you don't solve whatever problem is going through your mind at that moment,

00:07:06.620 and you are dealing with existential stuff, right? Like issues with your wife, a divorce,

00:07:13.940 substances, like these are life and death issues. And you've got your kids, which is your most

00:07:19.400 precious thing with you, which raises the anxiety even more because Papa's got to be protective,

00:07:25.080 man. You've got the most precious thing. You've got to be protective right now. You've got to be on

00:07:28.300 your game. And so that's sending your anxiety through the roof. The signal gets sent to the rest of

00:07:34.460 your body for a stress response, which is fight or flight, right? All of us know that you've been on

00:07:40.540 a freeway. You see a pileup of cars in front of you. And suddenly, you know, you feel that surge of

00:07:46.060 adrenaline. It feels like your teeth are loosening from your jaw. Your heart starts racing. You're

00:07:51.140 getting adrenaline and glucose flowing to your muscles so you can like power up and run if you need

00:07:57.380 to or get bitten in the ass by a line if you need to and still survive and keep running. And you have

00:08:02.680 all of this stuff happening all at once. And like for me, the first time I had one was in college.

00:08:09.500 I was talking about my delivering my college thesis and explaining it to my other, you know, college

00:08:19.740 senior political science majors. Like the thing wasn't graded. I'd spent the whole year writing this

00:08:25.620 200-page book. It wasn't graded. It wasn't mandatory. And yet I had this like balls-to-the-wall

00:08:32.840 panic attack that I thought I was molting into a werewolf. Like I had never experienced it. I was

00:08:39.280 wearing a turtleneck. I felt like cats were clawing my neck. I didn't know where I was. I had feelings

00:08:44.760 of claustrophobia, derealization. I thought the floor was going to fall out. Like your vision

00:08:51.640 constricts to a pinhole. You feel like you can't breathe. Your brain is actually not working as it

00:09:00.020 normally would because it's only focused on physical survival. So anything that requires

00:09:05.800 long-term memory, like maybe your ex asked you to pick something up at Jimmy Don's and you couldn't

00:09:11.340 remember if it's a turkey sub or a ham and cheese like that, that's out the window because your body's

00:09:15.940 just unable to process those things. It's thinking I need my like spatial GPS. I need glucose in my

00:09:22.520 muscles to be able to fend off or fight or do whatever I need to do. And then I need to get out

00:09:26.880 of here. And so, yeah, like we're actually engineered for it to be super memorable because your body is

00:09:35.140 there to ensure your preservation. It wants you to remember that incredibly unpleasant feeling

00:09:40.580 because it wants you never to put yourself in that situation again. Um, of course, like people

00:09:46.620 like me who've had hundreds and hundreds of them, you're like, well, am I broken? What's going on

00:09:52.340 here? Um, and we can get to that later, but like, that's basically the broad brushstrokes of what a

00:09:58.460 panic attack is and what happens to your body. And there's some really interesting evolutionary

00:10:03.980 reasons. We have all of these physiological responses and psychological responses. Um, everything,

00:10:10.120 all of it really is geared for a specific reason. The ultimate reason is for survival,

00:10:14.580 but like all these little things happen, um, to make you basically better able to get out of it

00:10:20.760 and survive. Um, just one thing, like if I'm, if I'm with Ryan in the car, right. Or with anybody

00:10:27.780 else who's experiencing a panic attack and I can tell them one thing that they're going to remember

00:10:31.480 because most of it, they're not going to remember. You are not going to die. You were Ryan. Like I'm

00:10:36.780 talking to Ryan. I'm sitting with your shotgun. You're, you're, you're going through the, the,

00:10:40.380 the takeout line at, at, at Jimmy John's. And like, Ryan, you're not going to die. This is a panic

00:10:46.360 attack is 15 to 90 seconds. Ryan, you're a guy who works out. You experience pain when you work out.

00:10:53.000 Suffering is what we do when we work out. Suffering is part of life. You got this. You got 15 to 30

00:10:58.260 seconds, dude. I know you got that. I know you can make it through that. You can do it. When you

00:11:03.120 get past the 90 seconds, it's going to be over. You're going to be feeling residual anxiety,

00:11:07.420 but all of us live with that every day. You just got to get through that first 15, 30, 90 seconds

00:11:12.900 max of the panic. And then you're out of it and you can reassess. So it's not going to kill you.

00:11:19.580 Interesting is when I, yeah, when I had this happen, it was by the time I got to the Instacare,

00:11:25.280 I was sitting, I had checked in and I was sitting down and I, and I was thinking to myself, well,

00:11:30.740 I actually feel a whole lot better there. Like you said, there was some residual anxiety,

00:11:34.660 still feeling worked up, but I was feeling a whole lot better. And I almost thought, well,

00:11:38.980 I don't really need to be here. You know, I can, it's fine now, but I, you know, I continued to go

00:11:43.240 through that process. Cause I was, it was new for me. Is, is there a difference though, between

00:11:47.780 a panic attack and an anxiety attack? Cause I don't know if those words are used synonymously or

00:11:53.180 interchangeably, or if there's a complete difference between the two.

00:11:56.380 They are. And it's kind of incorrect. So I describe a panic attack as the, uh, orgasm of anxiety,

00:12:05.460 right? Like if an orgasm is the maximal expression of pleasure, like the greatest pleasure you can feel

00:12:13.180 the euphoria, a panic attack is the maximal expression expression of anxiety. It is like the

00:12:21.580 balling up the, the, the, it's just the most primal, powerful experience of anxiety that one can

00:12:28.000 experience. And like a, an orgasm, it can leave you panting, breathless, sweaty, wanting a cigarette

00:12:34.720 afterwards. Like it's, it's pretty unforgettable. So an anxiety attack is just like a, a surge in that

00:12:43.800 feeling of undirected dread, right? Anxiety is undirected dread. I'm feeling like,

00:12:48.560 I'm worried about my kids. I'm worried about my job. I'm worried about stuff. It's like that

00:12:54.020 discomfort feeling that you have. A panic attack is a very narrowly defined set of symptoms that

00:13:02.080 people experience when they're having this maximal expression of anxiety. And it is the triggering of

00:13:08.820 the stress response. It is literally, literally your body telling you you're in a life and death

00:13:14.800 situation right now. You could die. You need to get the hell out of there right now. You got to figure

00:13:21.380 this out or you're going to die. This is immediate. This is now. And that's why it sends all of those

00:13:26.840 discomforting signals to you. And that's why it summons up all of this very powerful stuff in your

00:13:32.220 body. Like that punch of adrenaline, man, that is a huge evolutionary advantage. And so like,

00:13:40.160 why do our hearts beat so fast? So we can get all that oxygen rich blood to our limbs. We breathe so

00:13:48.820 fast that we can take in oxygen. Our, our, our vision goes to a pinhole because your body is used,

00:13:55.160 is trying to protect you when you are most vulnerable. Think about like humans in the

00:13:59.460 Savannah 50,000 years ago or a hundred thousand years ago. You're in the Savannah. It's night.

00:14:04.800 That's when the Panther is going to come eat you and grab you by the head. So your pupils are

00:14:09.780 massively dilated to be able to take in as much light because you're most vulnerable in the dark.

00:14:14.100 You're sweaty. So you can be more slippery. Um, your feelings of like derealization and

00:14:21.520 claustrophobia are trying to get you out into the open where you're, uh, uh, where you can better

00:14:27.500 protect yourself. Like all this stuff is actually engineered for human survival. Now, in my case,

00:14:33.760 standing in front of my fellow college seniors, uh, and in your case in the Jimmy John's line,

00:14:40.840 that's not the best time to have a stress response, right? It's hugely disadvantageous,

00:14:45.580 right? Like I don't feel like we're involved for me to have a panic attack in front of like

00:14:51.000 all my people and you and the Jimmy John's line. Can we do this later? Right? Like

00:14:55.840 when the gym maybe, uh, but that's what it is. Like your body doesn't care that you're

00:15:01.920 uncomfortable. Your brain and your body only care that you survive. So you're sweating through

00:15:07.220 your underpants at Jimmy John's. You lose 50 calories. Your body's like, so what? 50 calories.

00:15:13.520 That's okay. You miss a cue. You miss one of those big signs that sets off the stress response,

00:15:19.340 the big panic button, the big, a fire alarm of a panic attack and you're dead, right? What if your

00:15:26.240 body, you're driving with your kids, Ryan, and you're coming home from Jimmy John's, you're on

00:15:31.440 the freeway. You don't see the signs of the pileup on the freeway and you smack into someone. Then

00:15:38.240 you're dead. Your kids are dead. That is the worst thing. So your body's like, yeah, screw it. Have a

00:15:43.520 thousand false alarms. Have a thousand panic attacks. I don't care. As long as you don't miss

00:15:48.500 one single real alarm, cause then you're dead. If that makes sense.

00:15:55.760 Yeah, that does. And that's how that's, that was the experience for me. I think I felt it maybe

00:15:59.980 early enough where I noticed there was a problem when it was able to address it, fortunately,

00:16:04.640 and not get myself into a position where it would have been, you know, more difficult. But yeah,

00:16:09.300 I remember just being at a loss for breath. I remember getting to that Instacare as quickly as I

00:16:15.020 could. I couldn't tell you what else was really around me or anything. It was like, nope, get there.

00:16:19.400 You got to go right now. I thought maybe I'm like, there's no way this is a heart attack. I did think

00:16:23.800 that I'm like, is this a heart attack? I'm like, no, I know what this is. And fortunately I did

00:16:27.960 without ever having experienced it before. I guess my question is, you know, where I've had one of these

00:16:33.840 things and you've had hundreds, it sounds like, are there things that you can do? Obviously at a macro

00:16:39.240 level, I think there's things that you can do to improve your life, but what on a micro level,

00:16:43.080 when you start to experience this, even just noticing some buildup of anxiety or some of the

00:16:49.120 symptoms that you're talking about, are there things that you do in the moment to help deal

00:16:53.240 with this or maybe even overcome it before it becomes an issue? Yeah. I mean, I really want to

00:16:59.060 get to them, but I also want to talk about something else first. You mentioned the heart attack,

00:17:03.160 right? And I think one of the problems, like you are far more self-aware than Matt Guttman was

00:17:11.800 25 years before he wrote his book, before he was in TV, when he experienced his first panic

00:17:19.880 attack. Like I knew nothing, man. I was like, whatever that was, I must have molted into a

00:17:25.880 werewolf. I don't know what it was. Look, literally I was like, that's what I felt like. And I knew I

00:17:33.220 didn't want it to happen again. I knew it was something having to do with nerves. I knew it, I knew it

00:17:38.440 wasn't a heart attack. I didn't know what the hell it was. And I didn't want to think about it or hear

00:17:43.100 about it. So I just like tamped it down. I suppressed, man. And I'm good at it. I'm good at

00:17:48.600 compartmentalizing. And even though I kept having panic attacks when I started doing radio and then

00:17:54.500 TV, I still denied the fact that I was having it. And so like, one of the things that's really good

00:18:00.280 is to be able to know, all right, I know my body. I'm a grown ass man. I'm not having a heart attack.

00:18:08.820 I'm having a panic attack. And they're different. And I'm going to be okay. Which is like, you had

00:18:14.260 this baseline understanding. Like you feared you were going to die, but you understood, hey, I need,

00:18:21.720 and by the way, like you did the things that you needed to do. So what I tell people is that

00:18:26.980 not only are they not going to die during panic, you're also functioning better than you think you

00:18:32.800 are. Like think about what Ryan did. Ryan is responsible enough to know he's not going to get

00:18:38.580 stuck in the Jimmy John's line because that's a bad idea right now. I can gauge where I am.

00:18:45.020 That's going to lead to an outcome that I'm not going to be happy with. Second, I'm not going to be

00:18:50.600 like, I don't have so much hubris that I'm going to think, well, I'm going to get over this with my

00:18:56.660 kids in my car. No, they're the most precious things to me. I'm going to make sure that I

00:19:00.600 offload them to a place that's safer. Call the ex. Hey, babe, I'm sorry. You know, whatever.

00:19:06.340 Can you take the kids? Sure. And then you're going to go check yourself in. Okay. I don't think I'm

00:19:10.680 having a heart attack, but to be as, you know, to exercise as much precaution as possible,

00:19:16.920 I'm going to take that extra step and protect myself. Those are all like super logical things to

00:19:22.120 be doing at a time when you feel like you're losing your mind. Right. So like we still function

00:19:27.100 far better than we give ourselves credit for. Right. Third thing or whatever we are at this

00:19:34.140 number fourth is like talking about it. So you're talking about it, which is a really big deal.

00:19:39.360 I hit it, did not talk about it for about 15 years. I didn't even want to think about it.

00:19:43.380 I was so secretive about it because I carried so much shame that was associated with panic that like

00:19:49.480 I wrote about it in my journals, but I would write about it in handwriting that was

00:19:53.520 even illegible to me. It was like hieroglyphics. Why am I lying to myself in my own journals where I'm

00:20:00.380 trying to document my own experience? How demented is that? So like ridding yourselves of shame around it

00:20:10.240 is a huge big deal. And it's also okay if you have to go to the emergency room and you mentioned the

00:20:16.560 heart attack. Nearly 40% actually, sorry, it's 30% of all people who check themselves in to the ER

00:20:27.500 thinking that they're dying of a heart attack are having a panic attack. 58% are either having a panic

00:20:34.440 attack or some sort of serious anxiety related incident, which means it happens to a lot of

00:20:42.840 people. If it happens to you, anybody who's listening, it's okay. Get it treated, deal with

00:20:49.160 it afterwards. But if we can create more awareness about what it feels like, so people like us in the

00:20:55.520 future or the future Matt's and Ryan's can be like, okay, I'm having a panic attack. This is not a heart

00:20:59.960 attack. I don't need to spend hours or days in the hospital getting this checked out. I'm going to calm

00:21:04.980 down. I'm going to do some breathing. I'm going to be okay. Then we saved also like the health system

00:21:12.120 tens of billions of dollars a year, because think about how much all of that battery of cardiac tests

00:21:19.960 costs for each patient that is spending anywhere from a number of hours to 48 to 72 hours in the

00:21:27.760 hospital getting checked out for something that doesn't actually have anything to do with their

00:21:31.640 heart. It's has to do with their head. So, um, yeah, there's a lot there, man. Let me step away

00:21:39.200 from the conversation very quickly. Uh, if you like this podcast, we have been spending a lot of time

00:21:45.840 and money figuring out how to reach more men. That's my mission is to reach millions of men who

00:21:51.020 are on the path to becoming better fathers and husbands, business owners, community leaders.

00:21:55.540 And so I'm looking at all possible outlets and platforms and one platform that's been really

00:22:00.700 growing lately that we've spent a significant amount of time improving is video. And that's

00:22:05.980 specifically over on YouTube and rumble. So if you could do us a solid, but also connect with us a

00:22:12.320 little bit deeper because it's sometimes hard just to get it through audio. And I realize not

00:22:16.080 everybody's in the position to watch the video, but if you could, could go to, uh, either YouTube

00:22:21.520 or rumble, wherever you get your video content and subscribe to our channels. And more importantly,

00:22:26.420 please share when you come across one of our long form video conversations like this one here,

00:22:31.780 or even the short clips that my team and I put together and make available, uh, for you again,

00:22:37.680 over there on YouTube and rumble, really focusing on, uh, the video content and upping the quality of

00:22:43.480 our video production. And our design team editing crew, uh, is doing a phenomenal job and, uh, we're seeing

00:22:50.440 results over there. So go check it out over on YouTube or at rumble, and you can get into the

00:22:55.440 conversation a little bit more deeper, uh, because of the video quality and content. All right,

00:22:59.700 guys, let's get back to it with Matt. Um, okay. Tricks of the trade, right? Like if it's about to

00:23:05.920 happen, how do you avert it? Right. Um, yeah, definitely took me many years. So like, this is

00:23:12.060 like what's in the book, no time to panic. Uh, but it takes like, this is why I wrote the book to give

00:23:19.560 people a little bit of help. Um, one thing I like to do because like, you know, I I'm still on TV and

00:23:26.500 I don't want everybody to know that I'm having a panic attack. It hasn't happened for a couple of

00:23:31.780 years really since, um, since I started this effort, this journey to figure it out and to, uh, learn

00:23:39.740 about it and make myself better. But if I feel anxious and I still do, I'll do this. Um, it's a

00:23:47.900 mindfulness technique and basically you want to focus on five things in your field of vision,

00:23:53.680 right? So I see Ryan, I see the light behind him. I see some of the posters and you want to like

00:23:59.480 think granular. I see the actual, the, the palm leaves and the palm trees and the dates on the

00:24:05.240 poster. I see the light bouncing off this little basketball court we have outside. Um, I see leaves.

00:24:10.940 Then I focus on, so five things you see, four things you hear, whatever. Ryan in my ear,

00:24:18.140 the hum of the air conditioner, the, uh, lawnmower and, um, leaf blower outside and my dog snoring

00:24:25.500 in the corner. Three things you feel, my butt in the chair, uh, the shirt on me, the, uh, earplug in

00:24:32.420 my ear as I'm listening, whatever it is. Two things you smell, one thing you taste. And if you focus on

00:24:38.800 all of those five senses and five things, five, four, three, two, one, I guarantee you, you are

00:24:45.000 not going to be in the full on panic that you were when you started. Um, there's another method which

00:24:49.780 works on activating the vagus nerve, but like, it's a little weird if you're in public, like that

00:24:55.720 thing, focusing on five things you see, four things you hear, three things you feel, two things you

00:25:00.800 smell, one thing you taste is easy to do like in your own brain. But if you're alone, focus on a pen.

00:25:07.140 So look at the pen, focus on this, and then focus on something behind it. Bring your gaze back,

00:25:14.300 focus on something behind it again, and basically shift your field of focus, uh, several times.

00:25:19.420 That really helps. And one more, um, is, uh, is another meditation mindfulness. It's just like,

00:25:26.500 imagine you're holding a worry bead, rosary, and you're counting down five breaths.

00:25:31.520 In through the nose, out through the mouth, one. In through the nose, out through the mouth, two,

00:25:39.080 all the way down to five. Um, and just the act of inhaling, exhaling as slow as you can,

00:25:47.160 absolutely relaxes you. Um, and like if someone's about to have it, just the mere fact of knowing you

00:25:55.180 are not going to die, I promise you. It feels really painful, but as someone who's had hundreds

00:26:00.760 of them, you're not going to die. You're going to be okay. It's 30 to 90, whatever, 15 to 90 seconds

00:26:06.640 of discomfort, but you'll survive. And like for me, like, and sorry, one more thing. It's normal.

00:26:14.680 Like this, I, I, it took an evolutionary psychologist. Like I was trying to figure out

00:26:19.720 like, well, why do we have these physiological, uh, reactions to stress response? How is it still

00:26:25.100 in the human genome? Because it's so obviously painful and like unhelpful in modern times. Like

00:26:32.320 why the hell did it persist? And it persists because it still works because it's in there. And because

00:26:38.420 it saves us from making really stupid mistakes. It slows us down. And so he said, Matt,

00:26:44.080 it's normal. Panic is normal, which is why about 50% of Americans are dogs. No longer snoring.

00:26:53.460 The dog won't go. Dog is up. Okay. Which is why, sorry.

00:27:02.200 Which is why, um, 50% of Americans are likely to experience a panic attack in their lifetime,

00:27:10.140 which is a huge number. It's like you basically, everyone, you know, or their, or someone in their

00:27:15.640 family will experience a panic attack in their lifetime. And the reason for that is we've evolved

00:27:20.840 to continue to have panic in the gene pool because for some reason it actually works. It actually is

00:27:28.500 an advantage, not a detraction in the gene pool, which is a little bit mind blowing. But when I

00:27:33.740 learned that I'm like, Oh, so I'm not utterly and completely broken. That's great. Like, I'm like,

00:27:41.840 Oh, it actually made me feel so much better and reduced the incidence of panic because I didn't

00:27:48.540 hate myself so much. I didn't feel so much shame that was associated with this, with this, um,

00:27:54.820 you know, expression of anxiety that I endured.

00:27:59.780 Are, are certain people more predisposed to have panic attacks or is it a matter of the way that

00:28:05.680 certain people process and deal with stress? I think it's a great question. I think what's sure

00:28:11.580 is that certain people are more likely to have it, right? Like anxiety is something that, uh, you have

00:28:17.100 in your family. I'm a, I'm an anxious person. My wife's an anxious person. Our kids are anxious.

00:28:21.980 It's possible. It's likely that they will experience it. Um, I think also people like me

00:28:31.720 who weren't very good at processing anxiety, who didn't have an outlet, who didn't know how to find

00:28:40.760 an outlet, who are really good at manning up. Like, you know, you play sports in high school and I only

00:28:48.180 played, like I played football, I wrestled and I played lacrosse. Like if I wasn't getting beat up,

00:28:53.360 I wasn't playing sports. And, uh, like you learn to gut it out. Like, okay, it's pain. You know,

00:28:59.380 are you injured or are you hurt? I'm like, okay, I'm hurt. I'm in physical discomfort, but I'm not

00:29:04.440 injured. I'm going to play through. But I was not, I was, I was injured in the brain. I was

00:29:09.960 suffering and I wasn't doing a good job of dealing with it. And so it took me many years

00:29:15.480 to figure out better modalities of dealing with it. Um, and one of which ultimately was accepting

00:29:22.900 the fact that there's something wrong and I needed to work on fixing it and actually,

00:29:27.640 you know, invest time and resources and energy in, in making myself better.

00:29:35.940 So you've talked a lot about, uh, how, how you deal with it in the moment with your mindfulness

00:29:40.200 techniques, which to me, you correct me if I'm wrong. The breathing technique is obviously there's

00:29:45.060 there's a physical response to that, but the others see more of a distraction technique.

00:29:50.500 Would you agree with that? Or is there something besides just distracting yourself for 90 seconds,

00:29:55.500 two minutes, whatever it takes? It's that simple. What you're basically, no, you hit the nail on the

00:30:00.920 head, Ryan. It's like, you're basically making your mind forget that it has experienced something

00:30:07.420 that is telling it that it's under threat. It's like, it's literally the dog being like,

00:30:13.920 bark, bark, bark, bark, squirrel. And like, you shift, you know, from the movie of it, you're just

00:30:20.980 like distracting the brain. Yes, it is a total brain trick, but it works. You're, you're letting

00:30:28.000 the brain forget for a split second that it registered something that is a threat. It may not

00:30:33.420 be a threat. It may be a false alarm. It doesn't matter, but there are ways of getting around it.

00:30:38.080 Um, you know, but you want to still keep the ability and you can't help it for, to have real

00:30:45.360 alarms, which is again, you know, there's a pile up on the freeway in front of you and you see it,

00:30:52.140 you register it, and you feel that jolt of adrenaline. You hit the brake, but not too hard.

00:30:57.420 You know, you start to slow down, you hit the blinkers, you get into the other lane, you do all

00:31:01.440 things that we know to do sort of instinctively, um, when we get that rush. And most of the time

00:31:07.520 we get out of that situation. Um, yeah, but that's a really good question.

00:31:13.240 So what have you done then in your life on, on a, on a larger scale? Because distraction's great in

00:31:18.280 the moment, but it doesn't really solve the problem. So what have you done in your life to

00:31:22.700 ensure that you're actually addressing the root cause of the problem in addition to some techniques

00:31:26.780 in the moment that might really help you if you're doing an interview or, or a report, or, you know,

00:31:33.740 you have something important going on, you know, so I, you know, I don't know if folks listening know

00:31:40.840 what happened, but like, so I, I'm a TV correspondent, um, chief national correspondent for ABC news.

00:31:47.640 And my job is to go on camera pretty much. Right. And I, I write and I report and I do interviews.

00:31:52.900 Um, but like where you see me is on camera, often live. It's the bread and butter of what I do.

00:32:00.800 And for so many years, having panic attacks as I was going live was extremely painful and, um,

00:32:10.800 suffering inducing. On the other hand, it made me punch through. Like people are like, oh my God,

00:32:17.740 Guttman's got so much energy. I'm like, yeah, he's like punching through the camera because I was

00:32:22.620 literally sweating through my underwear and about to poop my pants on camera. Like there was energy

00:32:28.160 there, but it was also debilitating. And, um, it caused me a tremendous amount of suffering to the

00:32:34.900 point, like for years I've been talking to my wife about it. I'm like, I don't know if I can keep doing

00:32:38.780 this. I, I, I'm like, I don't want, I fear going on air. I fear having that experience. I started

00:32:46.920 doing all sorts of weird things to try to avoid it. Like I would show up really late for a live

00:32:53.880 shot, my live, because I didn't want to stand in front of the camera, just like looking into the

00:32:58.320 camera, waiting for them to cue me because it made me more nervous. Um, when I started looking into

00:33:04.680 it more, my doctor prescribed me Xanax. And so I would like pop a pill secretly hiding it in a cough

00:33:12.720 because God forbid my producer who I work with very closely, multiple producers, God forbid they

00:33:18.180 should know that I'm vulnerable in any way and would need a Xanax before going on air. God forbid

00:33:23.300 they should know I have panic attacks. No way. I would never tell anyone. I would do pushups before a

00:33:28.940 live shot. I had all these weird rituals, like magical underwear, because if I wore those,

00:33:34.680 underwear, maybe it would help me not have a panic attack on air, like crazy stuff. Um, and then in

00:33:42.460 January of 2020, I was, uh, driving out to report on, uh, the Kobe Bryant helicopter crash. And we did a

00:33:53.560 live report and in my panic attack, which I've had hundreds of times before, but I always managed to

00:34:01.380 get through like the brain clicked. It gave me an edge. I started, you know, like I was sharp again,

00:34:07.360 but this time it didn't happen. And I made a catastrophic mistake reporting on the story.

00:34:13.680 And like you and I share something similar. Like my dad was killed in a plane crash when I was 12.

00:34:19.620 So I, I, I spent a lot of my, um, sort of my tweens and teenage years without, uh, you know,

00:34:26.260 a real father figure and without my dad. Um, and you know, obviously that was a traumatic experience.

00:34:31.940 And I was the same age as Gianna, Kobe's daughter. And Kobe was the same age as my dad. And like,

00:34:38.160 obviously that's in my head as I'm doing this reporting. It's not an excuse though. Um, and so

00:34:44.640 I, I was basically unable to separate two very important reporting facts. One, I knew to be true.

00:34:51.320 And one, I wasn't quite sure was true. And when I, I said the thing, I wasn't quite sure to be true.

00:34:57.560 And out of deference to the family and out of respect for the family, I'm not going to get into

00:35:01.260 it. Uh, but I made a mistake. Eventually I was, we, we figured out it was not true. It was wrong.

00:35:07.920 I was suspended for a month and it nearly ended my career. And I'd been talking to my wife. I'm like,

00:35:13.120 I didn't want to do this in the, like, I've been struggling. I am, I am not me. I am suffering.

00:35:19.400 Should I get out? And, um, I basically, you know, like I'm the breadwinner and I had to make a

00:35:29.420 decision like, okay, well I'm going to give it one more try. This time I'm really going to try to

00:35:33.360 figure out some modalities to figure out why I'm having so many and to figure out how to deal with

00:35:38.860 them. And if it doesn't work out, then I'm going to leave. I'll go back to being a print reporter.

00:35:43.020 Maybe I'll do radio. I don't know what I'll do. Maybe I'll do PR. Uh, I don't know.

00:35:49.020 Um, but I started doing, by the way, PR is great. Um, but I started doing things. Um,

00:35:57.160 one of them was breath work, holotropic breath work with a buddy of mine named, uh, named Lane Jaffe

00:36:01.520 here in LA. And that's like, if anybody knows what that is, that's pretty heavy duty breath work. So

00:36:07.280 you're, you're, um, you're lying down and, uh, you go, you're breathing in,

00:36:12.340 two breaths in through the belly, one breath out. You do it fast and you do it for minutes and then

00:36:21.200 you'll feel lightheaded. Then you'll feel the blood basically is constricting into your heart

00:36:27.140 because you're depriving it by taking in so much oxygen. You're depriving yourself of carbon dioxide

00:36:33.260 and carbon dioxide is necessary for your body to break down oxygen. So it ends up happening,

00:36:38.720 which is kind of twisted is you're depriving yourself of oxygen. And eventually you'll have

00:36:45.440 an almost hallucinatory state, which is what happens to me. Like I'm away. I'm not in my right

00:36:51.420 mind. And the first time I did it with Lane, it was like two weeks after my suspension. And I just

00:36:57.780 started sobbing. Like I'm in this class, everybody's like, and I'm like, hysterically crying.

00:37:09.120 Like shamelessly too, which was great, which is what I needed, which is what I couldn't do

00:37:13.580 in my right mind. And Lane comes. And like, he was when I, he was two years older than me. So he was

00:37:20.180 like the football captain before I was, and he was the lacrosse captain and he was at wrestling. And

00:37:24.880 like, he came and he grounded me, which is like, he just put his hands on my legs, not to get me out

00:37:30.800 of that head state. He wanted to keep me in there. He just wanted to let me know that I'm not alone.

00:37:36.640 And so he grounds me, he puts his hands on me and I'm like, thank you. And I keep crying.

00:37:43.480 And it was like, and by the way, this is like a motif in the book, like grown man learns to cry.

00:37:49.540 Basically it's like grown man who, whose job it is to go into war zones, who's been shot at,

00:37:56.740 who's been kidnapped, who's experienced tank fire, who's been to Afghanistan and Iraq and Gaza and

00:38:02.540 Lebanon and West Bank and everywhere. Who's had all these life experiences, many of them dangerous.

00:38:08.500 now finally is, is confronting his own demons and learns how to man up in a, in a very different way

00:38:16.920 and learn how to express emotion and learn how to cry when he needs to cry. Um, and learns to touch

00:38:23.140 base with that, that deep grief that I held inside me for so many years, but I was too chicken shit

00:38:29.080 to deal with, to be frank. And so I found these modalities and like, I also tried SSRIs for years.

00:38:37.420 I was on SSRIs. I tried AD and ADHD medications, multiple. I tried anti-seizure medications,

00:38:44.500 benzos, propranolol, which is a beta blocker, which prevents your heart from beating too fast.

00:38:48.660 Um, I tried everything and it was, you know, certain different things that really helped me,

00:38:55.800 which ultimately were like things like breath work, um, and psychedelics, um, because I needed

00:39:02.640 to get out of my right mind, Ryan, in order to experience these things. So like I could only get

00:39:10.240 into my right mind by blowing myself out of my right mind, if that makes sense.

00:39:14.880 Well, I just think it, uh, you know, if we strip everything else away, the limited information I

00:39:20.940 have about it, it does just allows you to experience life from a different perspective,

00:39:24.340 from one that's outside of your, you know, your current reality or the way that you perceive the

00:39:28.380 world to be. And it gives you a new, a new lens from which to view your, your experience. I I've

00:39:34.560 heard a lot about psychedelics. Yes. And one in particular that I don't believe technically is a

00:39:39.200 psychedelic, but is used quite often as ketamine. I don't know if you're familiar with ketamine.

00:39:43.960 I think it's considered a psychedelic. I mean, it's not a natural psychedelic. It's a synthetic

00:39:49.080 psychedelic. And I had, you know, in the book, like there's a chapter dedicated to ketamine

00:39:53.920 because I had a pretty wild and, uh, profound experience on ketamine. Um, before we go farther,

00:40:04.260 I know you're going to say this, but I might preempt you, uh, every psychedelic experience that

00:40:10.080 I had, in fact, even breath work I did with a professional facilitator or practitioner or outright

00:40:18.220 psychiatrist or psychologist. Like I did this by the book because I didn't do it for recreation.

00:40:25.960 Like I was doing this to get better. And I recommend that if anybody is interested in following

00:40:31.680 up on anything that, that you and I are talking about, Ryan, that they try to do it with a professional

00:40:37.000 guide or facilitator and not just like go buy some hallucinogenic drugs and take them. Cause that's,

00:40:43.220 that could be a really bad, bad idea. Right. If you don't have someone with you. Yeah.

00:40:48.360 Um, yeah, definitely. So I'm glad you said that cause I think it is important to do it a healthy way.

00:40:53.660 Yeah. And like you want to benefit from what you're doing and like the way to get,

00:40:58.840 I think psychological benefit is to a, have someone there as a safety net in case something goes bad

00:41:06.600 and they talk about integration, which is like, you can have these experiences and they only get you

00:41:14.140 so far unless you can actually talk to someone about them afterwards and you can help work out.

00:41:18.980 Well, why was I thinking this? You know, like for me, uh, I had, uh, so, okay. Ketamine

00:41:27.700 three modalities of taking ketamine, right? One, well, four lozenges, which many people do. You can

00:41:35.160 get that prescribed over the mail at this point or online to nasal spray. It's called Spravato similar,

00:41:41.680 very low dose. You're not going to feel a real psychedelic experience. You might feel a little

00:41:47.180 lightness, but it helps you be able to talk about issues. It just gets you out of your right mind,

00:41:54.220 as I like to say. And it's when you're out of your right mind, it's easier to talk about stuff.

00:42:00.240 It's easier to emote. It's easier to touch base with some of those hard emotions that especially men

00:42:07.140 are so good at pushing down and deflecting and getting away. Second way is intravenous. That is like

00:42:15.040 you go to a clinic and it's an IV. They plug you up. You have an IV. It's also typically sub-psychedelic.

00:42:22.140 You're not tripping. You may experience some stuff, but you're not tripping. Third is intramuscular.

00:42:29.260 That's what you get if, um, ketamine is the most commonly administered sedative in the world

00:42:34.240 outside of the U S right. Super cheap, super fast acting. So you don't need a tremendous amount of

00:42:40.480 supervision. It's the most commonly administered, uh, pediatric sedative in the world. So like it's

00:42:46.700 super safe. So I, you know, what I did is I did three sessions in which I got a big shot of ketamine

00:42:53.520 and this is you're out. And the goal of these types of ketamine treatments is basically ego death.

00:43:03.900 You want to go to that knife's edge space between consciousness and unconsciousness.

00:43:10.840 So if you're fully unconscious, which is a much bigger dose, they cut your arm off. You don't feel

00:43:16.360 anything because you're out in this knife's edge. You're just teetering on consciousness. So what

00:43:22.160 happened to me is I get the shot. I'm with a doctor, a psychiatrist, Mark Bronstein, who's awesome.

00:43:29.040 And he says like a little prayer for you. And then like you get a shot and within five seconds, you're

00:43:34.840 like, I'm not feeling anything. And then five seconds later, you're like, Oh, and then it feels

00:43:40.920 really good. And then it feels like you're sinking into the bed and it feels like you're savoring a

00:43:47.060 hot cocoa on a winter's night. You're like, yeah, I can dig this. And it's just like this warm, oozing

00:43:56.260 feeling, which is the best thing you ever felt in your life. And then keep going deeper. And then

00:44:00.660 suddenly like the whole world, you're old enough to know this. You remember like the maps your

00:44:05.960 parents had in the glove compartment of the car. Even we had when we were kids, like starting to

00:44:10.240 drive. Yeah. We drove with maps and they would fold a very specific way. So like I perceived the whole

00:44:16.020 universe, right? Like you tell it to the kids now, they're like, what the hell is a map? What's a map?

00:44:20.680 What? What are you talking about? Fold? You mean the phone? Um, so like I perceived the universe

00:44:27.240 as this huge open map and suddenly it started collapsing on itself, folding up and like going

00:44:34.540 into the glove compartment and all the colors of the universe looked like this, like the shaving

00:44:40.980 cream experiment that your kids do with colored shaving creams. And then it all turns into this

00:44:45.820 like mash of purple and then black. And suddenly I realize, Hey, uh, I don't know where I am.

00:44:57.480 Uh, there's no Matt Guttman. There's no bed. There's no Ojai, California. There's no California.

00:45:04.540 There's no United States. There's no planet earth. There's no universe. There is no existence.

00:45:08.640 There is nothing. There is no future. There is no past. There is no present. I have ceased to exist.

00:45:14.280 I don't know what an eye even is. And so there is an experience of an existence of a speck in a

00:45:22.100 limitless universe. And I inhabited that space for what seemed like an eternity. Suddenly I started to

00:45:29.420 be able to come out of it. And like, you hear me, I video this and then you hear me croak. I'm like,

00:45:34.720 am I alive? And this, uh, Dr. Bronstein, he's this six foot four redhead Rasta with dreads who wears

00:45:46.520 velour track suits, but he's a psychiatrist. And he's like, yeah, man. And I'm like, is this reality?

00:45:55.380 He's like, it's full reality, man. Keep going. And you hear it like in the voice of God. And I'm like,

00:46:04.660 okay, keep going. And, uh, and then like, I kept going and I, you know, experienced all these things.

00:46:11.120 And eventually like, you know, you talk about the images and integration. And I, I, I saw like,

00:46:16.760 this was on the third session. I, of course I cried during that first session because like,

00:46:22.020 that's what I was doing in those days. Um, I, I experienced like flying over this primeval

00:46:29.680 jungle forest and I'm like flying over it. And suddenly I soar up on this cliff and I'm looking

00:46:37.060 down, surveying the world below. And then for some reason I take a nosedive and I'm like,

00:46:42.800 but instead of crashing into the earth, the earth rose up to meet me. And like, there's this soft

00:46:52.600 landing and I'm okay. And I had this realization, like, I'm going to be okay. This is okay. I'm okay.

00:47:00.860 I'm going to be, it's like the trust fall of life and I'm going to be caught. And it was like really

00:47:05.960 powerful. And so I, I did integration, which is talking about it with the shrinks afterwards.

00:47:10.400 And like, it's one of the things that image that I keep in my little treasure box of images from the

00:47:16.900 psychedelic experiences that I roll out when I do mindfulness or a little bit of meditation

00:47:21.280 or just think about, and like, I can keep using them and reanimate them. And they give me a little

00:47:27.720 bit of strength and a little bit of comfort, uh, when I need them. Anyway, that's my ketamine

00:47:33.040 experience, but yeah, that's interesting. I recommend it. No, that's interesting. I think it's important we

00:47:37.560 talk about this because it seems a little out there. You know, if I'm listening, I'm like, Ooh,

00:47:40.760 this is out there. But I also think there's, and you talk about this in your book, this concept of,

00:47:45.320 you know, the stigma around mental health and of course the stigma around ketamine and some of the

00:47:49.580 things you're talking about now, specifically with mental health, you know, and I think this is

00:47:54.600 probably more true for men than it is for women. Uh, how do we begin to combat that stigma, uh, and,

00:48:01.820 and address it so that we can actually get some of the help that we need?

00:48:06.840 You know, I think there's a double stigma when it comes to panic and mental health. Um, and it's

00:48:12.080 actually the reason that I decided to write the book because after I made my horrific mistake and

00:48:18.300 was suspended for the Kobe Bryant thing. Um, I, I wasn't thinking about a book. I was just trying to

00:48:26.000 fix me. Like, I honestly didn't care about anybody else. You know, I wasn't in for it. I'm like,

00:48:30.020 I am broken. I need to be fixed and I need to figure out how to do that. And eventually once like

00:48:38.460 it took a year, like, that's the thing. Like I'm giving myself, I'm throwing myself into it, but it

00:48:43.440 took a year until I was, until I was ready to start like actually telling anybody about the fact

00:48:48.440 that I had panic attacks. I didn't tell work. I didn't tell friends. I told my wife and my shrink.

00:48:53.160 Um, and once I was sort of in the head space, a long time into it to talk about panic, I was like,

00:49:01.840 okay, I'm ready. I want to, I want to find a support group, right? America, we got tons of

00:49:06.040 support groups. Everything, you got a support group for everything. And I started doing the research and

00:49:11.420 I called up all of the, um, sort of larger American, uh, anxiety and depression, um, uh, uh,

00:49:19.660 associations. And I'm like, I can't find support groups for panic. They did the research. They

00:49:25.500 couldn't find support groups. There are 17,000 AA groups that meet in the country. I think they're

00:49:32.200 like 15,000 Al-Anon, which is wonderful. But you'd think if about half of Americans are going to

00:49:38.320 experience a panic attack in their lifetime and it can cripple people's careers or cause them to be

00:49:43.940 agoraphobic, like how come there isn't more support? And there wasn't. So there were five

00:49:48.680 that I could find with the help of all these groups and like months of online research. Three

00:49:55.580 of them, that would be three, went defunct during COVID. And so two were operating when I was trying

00:50:01.880 to find them in, uh, early 21. Uh, and I finally joined one. And there were so many people, Ryan,

00:50:07.540 like in the, in the, the zoom queue waiting to say like, hi, I'm Matt Guttman. I'm a TV

00:50:13.980 correspondent who gets panic attacks going on TV. Uh, that it took 40 to 45 minutes just to get

00:50:20.460 through the hellos. And I'm like, all right, wow. There's a lot of demand here and not a lot of

00:50:25.920 supply. The group of people who panic, some of whom like are so afraid of leaving their house that

00:50:32.460 they have become completely agoraphobic and reclusive. They're suffering. They're underserved.

00:50:38.140 They're under-recognized. These people need some help. And maybe I should be writing a book.

00:50:43.740 I can help them because now I know some stuff. And so like 18 months into my process of like,

00:50:50.700 what was a three-year panic mission project? Uh, I started thinking about this book, um, because

00:50:58.040 there were so many people like literally 85 million people or even more, maybe 150 in America

00:51:05.520 who just don't have anyone to talk to. We're afraid of finding a place to talk to, uh, to people about

00:51:11.640 it. So first thing is to bring it out in the open to do things like you just did, which is be like,

00:51:18.000 Hey, I'm starting this podcast with my own experience. I'm Ryan. I'm like, I got a very successful

00:51:25.520 podcast. I'm a big, strong man. Take care of my family. Take care of my kids. And yet here I'm going

00:51:31.840 to show a pretty big vulnerability. That's a big deal. And like each one of each Ryan's out there

00:51:39.220 and each Matt's who's like owning up to something and owning up to our vulnerability, despite the

00:51:45.240 veneer of accomplishment. I think that helps, especially men be able to talk about it and deal

00:51:51.700 with it and just admit that like, this is what's happening and then it's okay.

00:51:58.180 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is the best place to start. And I'm so glad you wrote the book

00:52:02.580 because again, I've, and, and again, I probably wouldn't have been as interested as I am now about

00:52:07.600 this conversation, having experienced it to a small degree. And I know there's a lot of guys

00:52:11.880 dealing with it now, Matt, where do they go to connect with you to learn more about what you're

00:52:16.640 doing? And then obviously pick up a copy of the book too.

00:52:18.740 Um, you can pick up a copy of a book, um, anywhere where books are sold, you know, Amazon books,

00:52:25.100 a million Barnes and Noble, um, your independent bookshops. If you go there, they're great. Uh,

00:52:30.920 we need to keep those folks in business. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram, Matt Gutman,

00:52:35.620 ABC. Uh, so it's just my name, Matt Gutman, and then ABC afterwards. So yeah. And like,

00:52:42.120 I've had a lot of people reach out, Ryan. Yeah, no. And like, I've had lots of people reach out

00:52:47.000 of the line and I'm happy to help if I can. So, um, yeah, anyway, I appreciate you.

00:52:53.200 Great. I appreciate you. We'll let the guys know where to go. Thanks for joining us and sharing some

00:52:57.540 of this stuff. Anxious to see, uh, how we might be able to, no pun intended, how we might be able to

00:53:01.700 help, uh, some more of these guys dealing with some of the things that, uh, a lot of people seem

00:53:05.640 to. So thanks again. Thanks, Ryan. Men, there you go. My conversation with Matt Gutman. Uh, I don't

00:53:12.440 know to the degree that this impacts you. It's impacted me this last year more than it has in

00:53:17.300 other points of my life. And, uh, I know in talking with some guys about this, that there's

00:53:22.440 more people, more men specifically who are struggling with some of these mental issues,

00:53:28.260 anxiety, stress, depression, even suicidal thoughts. So, uh, hopefully this gives you something

00:53:34.280 to consider. And if it doesn't impact you directly, then by all means, share this with

00:53:38.360 somebody who might be impacted by it or might know somebody that, uh, could get some value

00:53:43.620 from this conversation. In the meantime, please go check out Matt's book, no time to panic, how

00:53:48.660 I curb my anxiety and conquered a lifetime of panic attacks. Uh, let him know that you heard

00:53:54.820 us here tag, take a screenshot right now, tag us on Instagram or Facebook, Twitter, wherever

00:54:00.440 you're doing your social media thing. And then, as I mentioned earlier, very, very

00:54:04.200 active in building out our YouTube channel with, I think over 335,000 subscribers now

00:54:10.580 and rumble as well, which is significantly less 225 or something like that, but we're

00:54:15.240 growing over there as well. So if you would please subscribe, share the show, share what

00:54:20.380 we're doing and with us in this fight. And, uh, I think we're going to impact and improve

00:54:25.840 not only a lot of men's lives, but their families and their communities, which is the leveraging

00:54:30.540 power of working with men. So please share, uh, and do what you can leave a rating and

00:54:36.420 review. And, uh, thank you for listening and tuning in. We will be back tomorrow for our

00:54:41.300 ask me anything until then go out there, take action, become a man. You are meant to be.

00:54:47.080 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your

00:54:51.360 life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - April 16, 2024

MATT GUTMAN ｜ When Anxiety Attacks

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