Order of Man

00:00:00.000 Guys, it's clear by now the stigma that once surrounded psychedelics has lost some of its power with the use of psychedelics like psilocybin, ayahuasca, and even LSD becoming much more mainstream through personalities like Joe Rogan and all we hear about quote unquote plant medicine from some of the most influential people today.

00:00:20.600 It's time we all start taking a closer look at the ins and outs, pros and cons and features and setbacks of the world of psychedelics.

00:00:28.500 Today, I'm joined by Matt Zeman, a master in medical science in both psychology and neuroscience and author of his latest book, psychedelics for everyone.

00:00:37.000 Now, I'm naturally a bit of a skeptic, so I took that approach on a topic I admittedly don't know a whole lot about, but we discuss why the stigma around psychedelics and how did that come to be the use of psychedelics to treat shame, blame and guilt and other symptoms of treatment resistant PTSD,

00:00:56.200 how psychedelics have been used to help people overcome crippling alcohol and drug addiction, the spiritual journey one may discover on his exploration into these medicines, side effects to consider, and how many men are using psychedelics to expand their consciousness.

00:01:12.700 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:36.920 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler. I'm the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast movement. Welcome here. I'm very excited to bring this conversation to you today because we talk a whole lot about goal setting and goal planning and how to master your mind and your body and what books you should be reading and what fitness programs and regimens you should subscribe to.

00:01:59.720 But we have not in eight and a half years had a conversation as deep as I do today on the world of something, admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about, and that is psychedelics. So excited to dive into this one. I hope you will be as well. At a minimum, we can answer some questions that maybe all of us have had about why the stigma and should we consider psychedelics on our own journey of self-development and self-improvement. If you're new to the podcast, this is a mission. It's a movement at this point designed to help you become

00:02:29.720 become a better man in the walls of your home, in your communities, in the walls of your business, and everywhere else that you might show up. So we have great conversations. We've got events. We've got merchandise. We've got our exclusive brotherhood, the Iron Council. So much going on here with Order of Man. And I'm really, really glad that you're on this journey with us. Don't have a whole lot of announcements. I am going to mention our 12-week battle plan a little bit later in the episode. But for now, I'd really like to get to our conversation.

00:02:58.220 My guest, as I said earlier, is a master in science in both psychology and neuroscience. His name is Matt Zeman, and he is a man who has immersed himself into the world of psychedelics to treat everything from addiction, anxiety, and depression, PTSD, and even create more spiritual consciousness and awareness. He's also the co-founder of various companies focused on solutions to some of the most challenging mental health problems of our times,

00:03:25.640 using methods and medicines that were once thought to be too dangerous for any person serious about their overall health and wellness, and also his nonprofit dedicated to helping individuals improve their mental health and well-being. He is also the author of his latest book, Psychedelics for Everyone, A Beginner's Guide to These Powerful Medicines for Anxiety, Depression, PTSD, and Expanding Consciousness.

00:03:51.540 Now, I do want to throw out a disclaimer, guys. Again, a lot of what you're going to hear is new information, is general information. But if you're looking at using these medicines or getting into this world more specifically for you, then I think it makes sense that you do your own research, that you consult medical professionals, and you be smart about what it is we're talking about and what it is you might consume into your body. Just want to throw that disclaimer out there, but I hope you enjoy the conversation, guys.

00:04:17.840 Matt, it's great to see you. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

00:04:22.260 Ryan, I appreciate you having me on.

00:04:24.320 Yeah, you bet. I'm glad your team reached out to me because this is a conversation I think is a conversation that's growing. It's a trend that seems to be growing. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

00:04:33.920 And it's actually one that I've never had in eight and a half years of podcasting now, and that is the idea of psychedelics and its use for medicinal purposes when I think the stigma associated with psychedelics is more of recreational use or just to get high.

00:04:53.100 Yeah, that is certainly what a lot of people think about. They think about the 60s and the hippies and that kind of counterculture movement.

00:05:05.100 And then I think for any of us born after 1971, we've grown up in a prohibition.

00:05:10.640 So all we've heard is like, this is our brain. This is our brain on drugs. Bad things are going to happen. Stay away.

00:05:16.200 And we really don't talk about how can this technology be used to make us.

00:05:21.420 And then in the case of your podcast, your audience, how does it make us better men?

00:05:24.460 How does it make us better husbands, brothers, sons, fathers, and all that?

00:05:29.740 Why do you use the term technology?

00:05:31.640 Technology. That's an interesting term, technology, as opposed to medicine or plants or some other terminology you might use.

00:05:40.260 I do it specifically to just get people thinking about it differently.

00:05:43.640 I mean, this is in some ways, sure, it can be a plant. It can be a synthetic molecule.

00:05:50.700 But at its core, it's also technology that is used to achieve a outcome.

00:05:56.360 So some people meet this medicine from a medical model.

00:06:00.040 So they want to meet somebody with a doctor who's going to give them a diagnosis and then introduce them to the medicine.

00:06:05.620 Others say, no, no, no, I'm a grown man and I should have no plant should be illegal and this should be decriminalized.

00:06:11.680 And they want to meet him kind of in that vein.

00:06:14.140 And then others say, I want to use this medicine to connect to a higher power, however it is that I define that.

00:06:21.300 So I want to use this technology for a religious purpose.

00:06:24.560 That's fine, too.

00:06:26.360 But there's kind of three different ways that psychedelics meet people today.

00:06:31.720 And, you know, it's interesting when you talk.

00:06:33.520 I have so many questions about this.

00:06:35.020 And admittedly, I can go in a thousand different directions because admittedly, I'm skeptical.

00:06:41.060 You know, I don't drink.

00:06:42.600 That's changed over the past year, so I don't drink.

00:06:45.320 I've never used really any drugs.

00:06:47.600 I mean, I might have smoked a joint when I was in high school or something like that.

00:06:53.640 But outside of that, don't use any drugs.

00:06:56.640 And to me, the skeptic in me says, if you want to get high, just get high.

00:07:01.480 We don't need to have all these reasons or excuses for doing that behind it.

00:07:06.180 And I'm not trying to discount your work.

00:07:08.240 I'm just saying that's the skeptic in me.

00:07:09.940 And that's the conversation I want to have today.

00:07:12.440 Yeah, Ryan.

00:07:12.800 I mean, that's exactly me going into this.

00:07:14.680 I was not a drug user.

00:07:15.940 I wasn't even a big drinker.

00:07:17.460 And some friends, some guys that I trust a lot said, you might want to try this.

00:07:22.740 And you love learning.

00:07:24.040 Here's a chance to learn about yourself.

00:07:25.780 You love travel.

00:07:26.640 Here's kind of a way to go on a trip in your mind.

00:07:29.300 And they probably knew that I had some other things that I was not addressing.

00:07:34.580 And yeah, it was way out of left field for me to try it.

00:07:37.560 But I went ahead and agreed.

00:07:39.220 I went on this guided magic mushroom or psilocybin journey.

00:07:43.480 And it completely changed the way I look and interact with the world.

00:07:47.460 I mean, so much so that I got someone else to run my business.

00:07:50.900 I went back to school to get a master's in psychology and neuroscience to understand

00:07:54.760 more about these drugs.

00:07:57.380 And then I've been really learning about how they work in a spiritual context.

00:08:04.140 Yeah.

00:08:05.240 So what do you think it was about that guided psilocybin, what do you call it, experience?

00:08:12.060 What was it about that that made you rethink everything?

00:08:18.700 Because when I think about the drug use or drinking even, it's like, okay, well, you get

00:08:23.660 drunk or you get high and then you have your experience or whatever, and then it's over.

00:08:28.440 And it's kind of an isolated experience versus something that could, as in your case, radically

00:08:34.320 transform your life.

00:08:36.360 Yeah.

00:08:36.500 I mean, so I can see both sides.

00:08:38.420 So let's talk about what happened with me.

00:08:39.740 I mean, I'm on this journey.

00:08:41.160 I've taken a bunch of mushrooms and out of kind of nowhere, my mom showed up.

00:08:48.760 And my mom died when I was 22.

00:08:50.580 She was 49.

00:08:51.960 And now she's here.

00:08:53.400 Like, what is this?

00:08:54.460 And I could kind of connect from her to me to my kids and come to a recognition that,

00:09:01.920 okay, maybe there is another place that spirit can go.

00:09:05.440 Okay, that's interesting.

00:09:07.280 And then I was sitting there feeling so incredibly safe and loved in this, again, this psychedelic

00:09:14.360 experience that in the next moment, it's like, well, wait a minute.

00:09:18.960 I'm not experiencing safety and love in my everyday life.

00:09:23.120 What's going on?

00:09:24.100 What am I missing?

00:09:27.100 So that was another type of insight and a curiosity that came from this led to me thinking a ton

00:09:35.680 about death and how I've been living my life, kind of being afraid of dying.

00:09:40.440 And what am I afraid of?

00:09:41.620 And what is that keeping me from in terms of my relationships?

00:09:45.980 And if I could experience all that in that first journey, my question is, what else is

00:09:51.780 out there?

00:09:52.140 What else can I experience with this exploration into consciousness?

00:09:57.480 And I wanted to learn more.

00:09:59.320 So yeah, from there it was, okay, what else is out here?

00:10:04.220 And how does this work?

00:10:05.660 And how does this then, can this be applied for a variety of things as I learn more and

00:10:10.480 more?

00:10:10.640 How can this be used specifically for depression or anxiety or alcohol use or substance use

00:10:14.700 challenges?

00:10:16.440 But then what kept coming back for me is that core.

00:10:21.040 How does it help you connect to yourself into however you define this higher power and how

00:10:26.280 do you use that to make behavioral change in your life?

00:10:30.040 And Ryan, you talked about not drinking.

00:10:32.040 I haven't had a single drop of alcohol since that first journey years ago.

00:10:36.380 All desire just fell away.

00:10:38.520 And it was not something I went in for, but it was a side effect.

00:10:43.080 And it's something that I've since learned is pretty common that people who are doing large

00:10:49.520 dose psilocybin or other psychedelics, they do lose their desire to drink.

00:10:54.280 They realize how poisonous alcohol is for the body.

00:10:57.340 And it's, yeah, it becomes no longer a needed thing.

00:11:01.340 Hmm.

00:11:01.440 Well, we'll get into that.

00:11:02.860 I want to explore this idea of consciousness.

00:11:05.780 The way I'm hearing you say it is something that's more centered around, you've used the

00:11:11.060 term higher power, uh, something cosmic, you know, and then the other side of it says that

00:11:16.280 all this is, is unlocking or firing different, you know, electrons, for example, in the brain,

00:11:21.660 I'm maybe using the wrong wording.

00:11:24.280 You're on to be sure I know you meant, you know what I mean?

00:11:26.840 And you could probably correct me and please feel free to do so, but you know what I'm saying

00:11:30.360 is it just a matter of just different synapses and brain waves and electrons firing, or is

00:11:37.660 there something otherworldly going on here that you're able to tap into?

00:11:42.380 So, right.

00:11:42.620 I think, I think the candid answer is we don't know.

00:11:46.100 Um, if you're asking from a research perspective, what have they shown?

00:11:49.480 They've shown that when you take most psychedelics, it's going to quiet down your default mode network.

00:11:54.680 So think of that as your, your inner narrator, the, the voice that's, you need to do more.

00:11:59.420 You're not good enough.

00:12:01.080 Um, you're not working hard enough.

00:12:02.820 That inner narrator, that's just doesn't stop talking.

00:12:05.860 So quite, we know it quiets that down.

00:12:08.160 That's called the default mode network is what you refer to that work.

00:12:11.260 Yeah.

00:12:11.660 That's kind of the, this, yeah.

00:12:13.400 Then we know it kind of lights up your brain.

00:12:16.520 So as we get older, we start thinking in, uh, in similar patterns over and over.

00:12:21.940 So think about it as a skier going down a mountain and he keeps, here's, she keeps skiing

00:12:26.720 in the same tracks and the tracks get deeper.

00:12:29.720 Well, the, the psychedelic lays down a fresh coat of powder so that skier can now ski back

00:12:35.420 all over the mountain that they used to ski over.

00:12:37.480 So in our case, we have neurons that fire and your brain lights up and all sorts of new

00:12:42.580 connections are made made.

00:12:44.000 And sometimes that looks as there are fun side effects that can happen from there.

00:12:47.660 Like you can start having a color associated with a sound, um, and different things like

00:12:53.640 that.

00:12:54.040 But there's also connections back into your past and the things that, into memories and

00:12:59.120 then things that you haven't, um, yeah, you haven't processed or haven't completed.

00:13:04.000 In many cases, these psychedelics remove, um, shame, blame, and guilt.

00:13:09.680 Uh, so like, uh, use MDMA as an example, which has been used really effectively with, with people

00:13:16.140 with treatment resistant post-traumatic stress disorder.

00:13:20.180 Um, one of the things they're able to do with the removal of shame, blame, and guilt is,

00:13:24.460 is look at, uh, experiences and process them differently.

00:13:29.620 Um, and then heal from those.

00:13:32.280 And then you finally, like you talked about before this, this connection to a higher power,

00:13:36.380 this mystic experiences, how it's defined in research terms, many people who come out of

00:13:42.440 these things say, you know, this is one of the top five experiences of my life.

00:13:47.100 And when the researchers say, well, what does that mean?

00:13:49.660 And it's like, well, my, when my parents died or when my child was born or when I got married,

00:13:57.400 it's, it's that big of an experience for them.

00:14:00.460 Um, and it's hard to quantify that, but they, there is a mystic experience scale that

00:14:06.280 is used.

00:14:07.980 Um, yeah.

00:14:08.680 And, and many, many people will put this as a, uh, as some type of connection for spirituality.

00:14:14.460 It's so it's, again, this is coming from the skeptic.

00:14:16.920 It's so hard for me to, and I, and I am, I want to make sure we have this conversation

00:14:21.280 because I'm deeply interested in this stuff, especially because it's something I haven't

00:14:25.020 explored, but I tend to be spiritual.

00:14:27.040 I believe in God.

00:14:27.880 Um, but it's, it's hard for me not to not just assume, well, the reason you think you're

00:14:33.700 having the spiritual experiences is because there's new connections or new something new.

00:14:37.880 Like you said, lighting up the brain happening, that's created an entirely new experience that

00:14:41.820 you can't explain.

00:14:43.080 Um, and therefore we assign it to spirituality or religion.

00:14:47.280 Could be, I mean, in my case, um, I guess rather than go in my case, I think in general,

00:14:52.420 the question that would be, well, well, then what's the staying power?

00:14:55.660 Um, if it's just a, oh yeah, I, I can't, I need to chalk this up to something or chalk it

00:15:00.220 up to this.

00:15:01.460 Um, I don't think we would see that people years after a psychedelic experience are still

00:15:06.860 pointing to that as a significant turning point in their life.

00:15:10.580 Um, and then I also don't know if they would, um, as confidently be able to say, well, I,

00:15:16.940 I completely understand and believe in the interconnectedness of all things after this

00:15:21.500 dose.

00:15:21.760 It's not that I, it's different than like talk therapy or being told something with, uh,

00:15:27.880 with a psychedelic.

00:15:28.860 I mean, you feel it, you understand in a way that is completely different than, uh, than

00:15:33.640 any other experience that's out there.

00:15:35.400 And, and, and, and Ryan, I'm, I'm not trying to convince anybody to do anything.

00:15:39.160 I'm just talking about my experience and what some, some of the research is saying on some

00:15:43.440 people, but everybody needs to make the decision that's right for them.

00:15:47.560 Of course.

00:15:48.680 Yeah.

00:15:49.200 I think you and I come from different backgrounds too.

00:15:51.540 I tend to be more, more intuitive in the way that I approach things.

00:15:54.740 I'm like, Hey, if it works and you feel better about it, it leads you to better life than all

00:15:57.820 the power to you, you know?

00:15:59.640 And, and, and I hear you even in, in our brief conversation up to this point talking about,

00:16:03.800 well, let me talk about it from the research or the clinical perspective.

00:16:06.400 And I think both are needed.

00:16:08.240 I think both, both are important.

00:16:09.900 I do have a question about something you said regarding shame, blame, and guilt, because

00:16:13.820 in researching for this conversation, uh, I've seen some videos and some different things

00:16:18.480 that you've done talking about the powerful effects of, uh, psychedelics specifically.

00:16:23.920 I think you said MDMA and, um,

00:16:27.820 Psilocybin.

00:16:28.380 Is it psilocybin?

00:16:29.540 I think, oh, maybe ketamine.

00:16:31.060 Metacetamine is what the one I saw.

00:16:32.460 Uh, I tend to believe that there is some value in shame, blame, and guilt.

00:16:40.240 Um, we, it seems to me that we experience a broad array, array of, of emotions for different

00:16:45.860 reasons.

00:16:46.180 And those can actually serve us.

00:16:47.980 I agree that at some point they probably become unhealthy, but does this shut down, not

00:16:54.300 just shame, blame, and guilt, but other emotions that we would generally consider more positive

00:17:00.820 or even healthy doses of shame, blame, and guilt so that we can drive effective outcomes

00:17:05.760 moving forward.

00:17:06.800 Yeah.

00:17:07.300 I love, I love that question.

00:17:08.680 And wildly in all of the different podcasts I've done, no one's ever asked that.

00:17:12.880 So I really, really appreciate that question.

00:17:15.440 It doesn't remove shame, blame, and guilt forever.

00:17:17.920 It removes it as it relates to a specific, typically traumatic experience and to, uh, into how you've

00:17:25.020 been thinking about that experience.

00:17:26.760 So the example that I wrote about in my book is, um, when I was a young teenager, I had some

00:17:31.900 inappropriate sexual contact with a family member, 10 years older, and I was mortified.

00:17:37.180 It was awful, awful experience.

00:17:40.200 And, um, couldn't talk about it.

00:17:42.820 Couldn't, uh, yeah, it was just tucked deep, deep away, which I think we as, we as men

00:17:47.800 can do, we compartmentalize and I tucked it away into a drawer, um, general, but yeah,

00:17:52.620 humans in general.

00:17:53.400 Yeah.

00:17:54.420 Um, and on one of these journeys, um, I was right back there and I didn't have to condone

00:18:03.260 what had happened, but I could look at the situation and say, okay, here's a situation

00:18:08.000 where this person is not feeling loved at all.

00:18:10.760 So I'm rejected from her father's feeling is struggling with substance use is having all

00:18:15.620 sorts of challenges.

00:18:16.460 And again, I don't have to condone what she did to understand the humanity of it.

00:18:21.560 And after carrying this around for like 30 years, I was able to process it differently

00:18:26.780 and then let it go.

00:18:29.720 And, um, and now I can talk about it without getting embarrassed.

00:18:32.800 I can talk about without that pit in my stomach or my ears turning red.

00:18:36.180 Um, and it's not mine to carry.

00:18:39.220 Now, does that mean I've removed shame, blame and guilt forever from everything?

00:18:43.560 No, from that one situation that I was processing on that one journey, that was helpful.

00:18:49.520 Um, I think we're seeing, and I'm going to stick on a, on this treatment resistant PTSD

00:18:54.640 for a moment.

00:18:55.380 They just, they're the phase three clinical trials of this particular medicine have finished

00:18:59.860 up.

00:19:00.580 And again, this is for people think about veterans, first responders, victims of sexual assault,

00:19:05.400 where they've tried talk therapy.

00:19:07.500 They've tried the existing, uh, pharmaceutical solutions and nothing's worked with three sessions

00:19:14.120 of MDMA and some therapy before and after 67% no longer qualified as having PTSD at all.

00:19:21.740 And 88% had a clinical improvement in, uh, symptoms.

00:19:26.380 So it's, it's a, the, the numbers are, are so radically high that it's, uh, it's, it's incredible.

00:19:35.560 So the FDA has given a breakthrough therapy designation.

00:19:38.120 We expect MDMA to be re-legalized here in America by the end of this year, beginning of next.

00:19:43.080 Australia jumped ahead of us and just went ahead and, and, uh, legalized it last month.

00:19:48.500 Um, but it's a, uh, incredibly powerful, again, technology or medicine, um, depending on what

00:19:55.700 you want to call it for all sorts of reasons.

00:19:58.700 How is PTSD defined?

00:20:00.980 I'm always curious about that because it's such a relative experience.

00:20:03.900 You know, I, I might be able to say, uh, you are infected with the COVID virus.

00:20:08.240 Like there's no subjectivity to that.

00:20:10.100 It's subjective, right?

00:20:12.000 But when it comes to PTSD, it seems like it's such a subjective.

00:20:15.260 And the reason I bring that up is because you talk about, they are no longer diagnosed

00:20:20.240 with having PTSD, but how do you know?

00:20:22.920 I'm curious about how one is diagnosed and how one is cured for lack of a better term.

00:20:28.480 Yep.

00:20:29.040 So PTSD is really, it is a disorder where people have, uh, have challenges recovering after

00:20:34.580 some type of experience that they've encountered or, or they've seen something.

00:20:39.720 And the symptoms are these, are these nightmares, these unwanted memories, um, these, these really

00:20:47.980 incredible, uh, triggers, uh, there are these, these, uh, panic attacks and different things

00:20:55.100 that occur, um, in an uncontrolled manner.

00:20:58.500 So the, um, and it can lead to, uh, it can lead to hostility.

00:21:05.220 It can lead to, um, not being able to sleep, self-destructive behavior, all sorts of things.

00:21:10.800 So there are different scales that are used to measure someone's symptoms of PTSD and it's

00:21:16.460 tip in, and by asking a series of questions.

00:21:19.740 Um, and again, people with treatment resistant are ones who have tried something and they still

00:21:24.400 answer those questions.

00:21:25.180 And they're still saying, well, I have this problem, this problem, or that problem.

00:21:28.200 And then fast forward to with this new, this new approach and they are answering those questions

00:21:34.760 differently.

00:21:35.620 Does that make sense?

00:21:37.500 Yeah, no, it does.

00:21:38.280 So it's, it's basically, I won't say it's self-diagnosed, but it's based on a series of

00:21:43.480 questions that they're answering, that they're still experiencing some of these symptoms that

00:21:49.540 might, that might describe post-traumatic stress disorder.

00:21:53.520 Absolutely.

00:21:54.640 And in most of these cases, I think, Brian, all these cases with the click case three,

00:21:57.980 but I don't know that to be true.

00:21:59.340 They're working with a psychiatrist or a medical professional that is saying, okay, no, you

00:22:04.600 have, you have treatment resistant PTSD and we're going to try something else.

00:22:09.620 I do like the, the, the qualifier of treatment resistant, because I think it might be easy for

00:22:16.320 somebody to jump down different rabbit holes without trying, you know, tried and true methods

00:22:20.660 or self-healing, I guess I might say.

00:22:24.920 I mean, I think humans are pretty resilient, resilient creatures physically, mentally, emotionally,

00:22:30.740 where we can heal over time or through new experiences that replace other ones and give

00:22:37.100 us some different context of the way we view life or experiences that we have.

00:22:40.820 Um, so I'm always hesitant when it's like, well, just, you know, take some drugs.

00:22:46.400 You'll be fine.

00:22:47.160 It's like, well, hold on, hold on.

00:22:48.860 What, what else have we tried here?

00:22:50.600 And I'm not saying you advocate for that, but I am curious when you say psychedelics for

00:22:54.720 everyone in your book title, I'm like, well, hold on a second.

00:22:56.940 Like everyone.

00:22:57.880 And that leads me to wonder, you know, at what point do we not go down this rabbit hole?

00:23:05.220 Well, Ryan, I mean, the point of my book title is not that everyone should take a psychedelic,

00:23:09.800 not, not, not by any stretch.

00:23:11.380 There are many people who psychedelics would be dangerous for either because of their preexisting

00:23:15.480 medical conditions or because of different prescriptions or supplements that they take.

00:23:20.280 Not a good idea for those, for those people.

00:23:22.180 And we could spend an hour just talking about risk reduction and who qualifies for what and

00:23:26.420 all that.

00:23:27.860 What I mean by that though, is that whether it's for yourself, that's for somebody you

00:23:32.220 love or whether it's good for society.

00:23:34.540 That's why I want people to read, to understand that we've been fed propaganda for 50 years,

00:23:39.180 that there's a lot of reasons why people may choose to take a psychedelic and, and, and

00:23:45.680 normalize this conversation.

00:23:47.720 I believe that they're good for society as a whole, but that doesn't mean every individual

00:23:51.740 should take a psychedelic.

00:23:53.540 Does that make sense to you?

00:23:55.380 Yeah, it does.

00:23:55.880 You know, I, I heard a story and I'm going to slaughter this.

00:23:58.640 Uh, I have a good friend.

00:24:00.840 His name is, is Pete Roberts and he's the founder of origin, uh, USA.

00:24:05.100 I'm, I'm a, I'm a good friend and, and, and business investor with some of their businesses,

00:24:10.340 but regardless, I bring it up because he was telling me about making hemp, uh, geese, jujitsu

00:24:16.860 geese.

00:24:17.380 And we were talking about the use of hemp in the United States and, and how it, it's

00:24:22.320 only, it was being used, but then it stopped from everywhere from like, even car bumpers

00:24:27.520 were being made of hemp.

00:24:29.140 But then the government came in, concocted this story or this reason.

00:24:33.760 And it wasn't even the government.

00:24:34.640 I think it was private industry who was threatened by the use of hemp or the growth of hemp for,

00:24:38.420 uh, competition that they shut down all hemp production based on faulty information and

00:24:46.660 faulty data about it's dangers in, in the drug trade and all this sort of thing.

00:24:51.360 And only recently are we seeing that, no, that's not actually a problem.

00:24:55.800 That was, uh, that was faulty information based on what an industry wanted to do so that

00:25:04.220 it could keep profits high.

00:25:05.420 Are we running into the same thing when we talk about psychedelics?

00:25:09.180 We've run into the same.

00:25:10.060 And that's, so what happened in the Nixon administration in 1970 is they had two targets.

00:25:14.220 They were targeting black people and they were targeting the anti-war, uh, counterculture

00:25:18.300 movement.

00:25:19.380 And they decided, you know, if we, if we criminalize these drugs, we can infiltrate these groups.

00:25:25.600 And then one of the lawyers for the Nixon administration has come out or came out years

00:25:29.640 later and said, we knew this was the science was bad, but we didn't care.

00:25:33.600 We had two targets.

00:25:35.080 We, um, so now fast forward and we've had, it was actually, I'm going to go back.

00:25:40.980 You said a moment ago, tried and true.

00:25:42.480 So what is tried and true in America today when it comes to, and I'll stick with the mental

00:25:49.320 disorders, the challenges, depression, anxiety, PTSD, substance use, what's tried and true

00:25:54.200 antidepressants.

00:25:55.520 So we've, we've had, uh, a, a, an epidemic where not only adults, but children are being

00:26:02.220 prescribed antidepressants, uh, mood stabilizers.

00:26:06.800 So ADHD medicine, anti-anxiety medicine, all sorts of things.

00:26:12.180 And we know now that that maybe works on 40% of the population, maybe.

00:26:17.960 And we know that the side effects are huge.

00:26:21.220 So I'll use a, there's a study on, on, on an antidepressant.

00:26:24.980 That's like 73% of the people who use this antidepressant have some type of sexual dysfunction.

00:26:29.900 It's a pretty high price tag for the youth.

00:26:32.980 There's suicidal ideation, there's weight gain, there's, um, I mean, this, the side effects

00:26:37.480 are tremendous.

00:26:38.060 And yet that's, what's prescribed over and over and over again in these 10 minute wellness

00:26:42.920 visits.

00:26:44.060 And then none of these medicines were meant to be forever.

00:26:47.420 And yet we now know plenty of people, 10 years, 20 years on still taking the antidepressants

00:26:52.880 and, and these different drugs.

00:26:54.960 Um, so it's, and there's a lot of money being made in the space.

00:27:00.380 So, or do we have people who's interested in, it's, it's who the idea of someone can go

00:27:04.660 and take six ketamine sessions or take one dose of psilocybin or three MDMA sessions and

00:27:10.700 might not need any more medicine scares a lot of people.

00:27:13.940 Of course it does.

00:27:15.620 And the research was halted, but there was, there was a thousand research papers on LSD alone

00:27:21.100 with alcohol free 1970.

00:27:23.580 So there's, there's old research, new research, and a lot of money who is a concerned of what's

00:27:28.740 going to happen with this.

00:27:30.420 That's the frustrating thing.

00:27:31.920 Your hemp thing is a, is it, is a very relevant analogy.

00:27:36.360 It's, it's, it's so frustrating because, you know, we've heard it during COVID is like,

00:27:40.420 trust the science.

00:27:41.160 It's like, well, should we like, is it really science?

00:27:44.400 That's the question I have.

00:27:45.580 When you say trust the science, are you really talking about science?

00:27:49.220 Because there's science and I realized that science develops.

00:27:53.200 I realized there's new discoveries that are made.

00:27:55.880 There's new technologies that we can use.

00:27:58.160 I realized that our understanding of the science evolves, but when you get political and you get

00:28:05.240 these other parties that are interested, that's no longer science.

00:28:09.160 That's something completely different.

00:28:11.460 And so I don't trust the science as it is today because it's not just science.

00:28:17.860 It's, there's way more to it that we just don't tend to look at.

00:28:21.400 Yeah.

00:28:21.920 There's a great book by Dr.

00:28:23.640 Carl Hart, who was at Columbia.

00:28:26.000 He's been studying addiction for 20 some years and it's called drug use for grownups.

00:28:30.900 And he, in his book talks about the, the war of drugs on, on, on people of color.

00:28:36.240 He talks about the perverse incentives between government and grants and academia and academia

00:28:44.280 and pharmaceutical companies and all of this and newspapers and how all of this feeds each

00:28:49.900 other.

00:28:50.780 Um, it's, it is interesting.

00:28:52.720 I mean, it's, it's not that hard to see how this circle can be, um, can be manipulated.

00:28:59.520 No, yeah.

00:29:00.340 Not saying that there's not great people doing great research.

00:29:02.420 Of course there are, and there is, but there is, uh, when you have pharmaceutical people

00:29:09.340 who make their money from pharmaceuticals funding the way our doctors are taught, it

00:29:14.820 doesn't, shouldn't surprise anybody when lots of pharmaceuticals are being prescribed.

00:29:20.260 Yeah, of course.

00:29:21.360 Uh, yeah, it's, it's interesting that we don't, that we don't look into that more than we do

00:29:25.900 even as consumers.

00:29:26.720 You said the Nixon administration had two targets, uh, you said black people and you

00:29:30.940 said something else.

00:29:31.760 And I can't remember the counterculture counterculture.

00:29:35.260 And, and that relates to drug use, like psychedelics specifically or what they were worried more

00:29:41.780 about, they're, they're worried about the, uh, people not wanting to support the war efforts.

00:29:46.120 And then they were also worried about the economy.

00:29:48.000 I mean, you had people like, uh, Timothy Leary saying things like tune on, tune in and drop

00:29:53.700 out, basically saying drop out of the workforce.

00:29:55.600 And I think that scared the government quite a lot that we'd have a whole generation of

00:29:59.860 people who didn't want to work the same way that their parents did.

00:30:03.840 But how does either of those relate specifically to this propaganda on, on psychedelics?

00:30:10.800 Sure.

00:30:11.020 So they made, so they made, they made these types of drugs illegal.

00:30:13.560 And then they used, they knew that they're not stopping people from, um, I'm going to use

00:30:18.500 a silly example, but in the, in the black community, the black jazz community, they're not stopping

00:30:22.940 cannabis, but they could then use the war in cannabis to get into, to infiltrate that community

00:30:28.000 and, and make arrests.

00:30:29.460 Same with the, uh, anti-war left, uh, the, what was called hippies back then they were

00:30:35.620 doing a lot of psychedelics and this was a way to crack down and, and arrest specific

00:30:40.080 people for specific things.

00:30:42.200 Interesting.

00:30:42.420 So it was, it was the, uh, opening the gate to hit the targets using psychedelics as, as

00:30:50.040 the medium to, to go after these groups and these individuals.

00:30:54.340 Yeah, absolutely.

00:30:54.820 I mean, you talk about, um, earlier on this conversation, you were talking about just like

00:30:58.360 the risks and the harm.

00:30:59.460 And there's a, there's a really great study by a guy named Dr.

00:31:02.600 David Nutt at, um, Imperial College London.

00:31:05.320 And he said, for a minute, let's just agree to forget how drugs are scheduled.

00:31:08.920 So just let's, let's take it off the table and let's just look at the harm to self and

00:31:13.260 to harm to others of a variety of different drugs on the far left-hand side.

00:31:17.880 The most dangerous drug for harm to self and harm to others is alcohol to 73.

00:31:23.060 Of course.

00:31:24.220 Like heroin is like a 55 crack cocaine is a 54.

00:31:27.720 I mean, it's alcohol has got really and causes a lot of damage to humans.

00:31:34.780 Um, both what they inflict on their own bodies and on others.

00:31:38.140 You come all the way down that chart, like an, a seven are mushrooms.

00:31:43.600 There's no lethal dose.

00:31:45.520 It's, it's hard to have a bad physical, uh, experience with, with muscle mushrooms.

00:31:52.320 MDMA is like a nine LSD is a seven.

00:31:55.380 So it's, yeah, it's, this was never about the science.

00:31:59.640 We knew that these were, uh, that these medicines were for many people relatively safe.

00:32:06.900 I have a hard time using the word safe.

00:32:09.040 And Ryan, you talked about it earlier.

00:32:10.340 I'm trying to be very careful in my language.

00:32:12.660 So all of these medicines can be dangerous.

00:32:16.000 And I really talk about risk reduction, but we, when we take a drug, whether that's alcohol

00:32:21.140 or mushrooms, we are, we, there's an inherent risk either way.

00:32:25.180 The risk on alcohol is higher than the risk on mushrooms.

00:32:29.500 Does that, does that resonate?

00:32:31.640 It does.

00:32:32.040 I'm just curious on mushrooms.

00:32:33.760 For example, you know, you talk about this scale being, you know, alcohol 73 and mushrooms

00:32:38.880 at nine, whatever the numbers were that you used.

00:32:41.060 It could that be attributed though, to general use and dosage and amount of use.

00:32:46.300 Cause I mean, look, we've, we've all heard the adage with alcohol.

00:32:49.880 If you don't drink or consume alcohol, like that's the one drug that people will assume

00:32:55.040 there's something wrong with you.

00:32:56.200 If you don't consume it.

00:32:57.980 And I had that experience, even just last week, I said, I don't drink to a bunch of drinkers.

00:33:02.100 And they're like, what, what, what's wrong with you?

00:33:04.220 What's wrong?

00:33:04.800 Like why it was, they were very weary about why I didn't drink, you know?

00:33:09.100 So could it be just attributed to that versus something else?

00:33:13.220 So again, you just covered a bunch of things.

00:33:15.520 It is, it's been fascinating for me to go from being a drinker to a non-drinker and to

00:33:19.520 realize like it is looked at as weird.

00:33:22.940 Like people don't think I'm weird because I talk about drugs.

00:33:26.300 I think I'm weird because I don't drink.

00:33:27.860 Yeah, for sure.

00:33:28.560 Exactly.

00:33:29.020 Kind of wild.

00:33:31.060 Or like you go into a, into a bar and you order a non-alcoholic drink and it comes out

00:33:35.660 in like the kid's glass.

00:33:38.600 Okay.

00:33:39.100 It's made me feel really uncool for drinking whatever I'm drinking here.

00:33:41.920 Um, so yeah, the, so the, the, the study that I'm referring to does, does take into

00:33:45.980 account, um, volume and, and all of that.

00:33:48.960 But, but also there's another study, um, from Columbia school of public health that where

00:33:54.400 they estimate how many, uh, us adults use hallucinogens each year.

00:33:58.960 And I think it's up to like five and a half million.

00:34:02.840 So it's still a substantial number.

00:34:05.460 Yeah.

00:34:06.200 Yeah.

00:34:06.480 It's a big, um, it's a big number.

00:34:08.800 Let me see here.

00:34:10.020 I'm trying to put up here.

00:34:11.920 Yeah.

00:34:11.940 It's like five and a half million.

00:34:13.320 This was the 2019 number.

00:34:15.940 Um, yeah, it's a, it's a big number and I'm not even sure.

00:34:20.320 I don't think that even counts.

00:34:21.860 Um, I don't believe that counts ketamine, which would increase.

00:34:25.040 So ketamine is our only legal option in America today, legal in all 50 States prescribed off

00:34:30.760 label for depression and anxiety.

00:34:33.420 Um, and I don't think that five and a half million includes ketamine because that would,

00:34:36.840 that would radically increase that.

00:34:38.340 Um, is ketamine also used in the treatment of ADHD or is it just depression and anxiety?

00:34:44.720 Yeah.

00:34:45.080 And as far as I know, it is not used for ADHD.

00:34:46.980 It is, um, it is yet just depression, anxiety, and obviously in pain and some other things,

00:34:52.340 but it is, uh, it would not be a, a stimulant like, uh, like Ritlin is for ADHD.

00:34:58.040 So, okay.

00:34:59.800 So we need to back up because the book is titled psychedelics for everyone.

00:35:03.500 And we got into it cause I was so excited to have this conversation.

00:35:06.460 What, so what is a psychedelic?

00:35:08.440 Cause I mean, yes, I think psilocybin we've all heard, you know, mushrooms, LSD, we've

00:35:14.560 all heard these things, right?

00:35:16.160 Peyote, ayahuasca there's, there's other things, psilocybin we've heard these things, but then

00:35:20.560 you, you lump ketamine into it as well.

00:35:22.560 And I just, I've heard of ketamine.

00:35:24.320 I don't know much about it, but I assumed it was some sort of medication.

00:35:27.480 Like you see traditional medication like Ritlin or some of these others to treat these types

00:35:32.900 of things.

00:35:34.300 Yeah.

00:35:34.620 So, so psychedelics.

00:35:35.800 So let's start with, let's start with drugs.

00:35:37.400 I mean, even that word by itself is confusing.

00:35:39.600 Where do you draw the line between a drug and a nourishing substance, like a vitamin or

00:35:44.920 pick me up like coffee.

00:35:46.480 It's not caffeine.

00:35:48.280 Sure.

00:35:48.540 Exactly.

00:35:49.180 Absolutely.

00:35:49.540 So it's the drug that that's, that everybody does.

00:35:52.080 It's sold in every corner and, and, and work even pays for you to do that drug.

00:35:55.920 Yeah.

00:35:57.040 The, the word psychedelic comes from Greek words, psyche and delios, which loosely translates

00:36:03.860 into mind or soul manifesting.

00:36:07.900 I actually like the term entheogen, which is, is specifically when these substances are used

00:36:14.460 with the, because of the direct connection with a higher power.

00:36:17.460 And there are hundreds of different entheogens or psychedelics.

00:36:22.380 So you've talked about the mushrooms, LSD, ayahuasca, MDMA, ketamine, but there's, there's

00:36:28.540 a book called a volume P call and T call where there's a couple hundred different psychedelics

00:36:33.860 that are listed.

00:36:34.420 Um, and it's, it's, yeah, there's way more than anybody thinks.

00:36:39.880 Um, and then the use of these things is wild.

00:36:43.340 Like this, there's a, uh, there's a cave drawing in Algeria where, uh, where it's like a mushroom

00:36:49.360 shaman.

00:36:49.900 So picture like a human with like an insect head and he's got mushrooms coming all the

00:36:53.920 way down his body and he's holding mushrooms in his hands.

00:36:56.340 And that's like four to 9,000 years old, um, for over 2000 years, the Greeks were using,

00:37:04.280 um, doing a psychedelic ceremony, the, the Ellusian mysteries where people like Plato and

00:37:10.760 Socrates and Cicero and, uh, Augustus Caesar and Marcus Aurelius, some of the, some of the

00:37:16.560 stoic philosophers, um, participated in a ritual that sounds a lot like communion where they

00:37:22.880 would drink this, uh, substance and they would become one with God and work about their, uh,

00:37:28.560 get a whole new perspective on death.

00:37:30.640 And then we certainly have studied in school.

00:37:32.860 Many of us studied about native Americans with peyote and the minds and the Aztecs.

00:37:36.840 And, but we don't learn about the shaman in Siberia working with mushrooms or that we don't

00:37:42.380 connect that.

00:37:43.200 Oh, wait a minute.

00:37:43.460 These witches burned in, in Europe were because of psychedelics somewhere where that they're

00:37:48.660 even tribes in Africa.

00:37:49.640 So these psychedelics have been used all over the world for thousands and thousands and

00:37:55.540 thousands of years.

00:37:56.400 And in fact, it's only this weird Western culture that we are in is the first culture

00:38:02.620 to not put a lot of value in the power of psychedelics.

00:38:07.120 And I think, and I, this is just my theory that it's attributed to the separation of religion

00:38:14.180 and medicine that in our culture, we have doctors and we have religious leaders and the doctors

00:38:20.340 are like, we're pure science.

00:38:21.360 We don't need that religious stuff.

00:38:23.180 And I think that causes a challenge when we've had these medicines that, that cross both,

00:38:29.000 um, both plans.

00:38:32.240 All right, gentlemen, let me step away from this conversation very quickly to pivot, shift

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00:39:53.680 You can do that right after my conversation.

00:39:55.860 For now, let's get back to it with Matt.

00:39:57.320 Yeah, I can understand that.

00:40:00.620 I mean, I even see as somebody who's spiritual, believes in God, and even religious, somewhat

00:40:05.520 religious, I better say it that way, that's more accurate, is this idea of creation versus

00:40:14.000 evolution.

00:40:15.000 I'm not sure it's one or the other.

00:40:18.040 For me personally, I believe in creation and evolution.

00:40:21.820 I believe we were created, and I believe over time, millions of years, that we've evolved

00:40:25.860 into who we are now and what you see before you.

00:40:28.760 So I can resonate with what you're saying, that they aren't always completely and separately

00:40:34.820 distinct, that there are lots of crossovers.

00:40:38.180 Right, and that we need some kind of reconciliation between medicine and religion, that it requires

00:40:46.520 adjustments on both sides.

00:40:47.780 So I get when people say, hey, these shamans don't know how to keep me safe.

00:40:54.920 They don't have the medical expertise.

00:40:57.760 Okay, maybe.

00:40:58.900 Let's put that in a bucket.

00:41:00.260 But I can also understand how the indigenous shamans say about the medical professionals,

00:41:05.460 they don't understand how to work in the spiritual plane, for the most part.

00:41:09.920 Are there some medical professionals who are studying shamanism and ceremonial use, of

00:41:15.380 course, and vice versa?

00:41:16.120 So then how do both sides work together?

00:41:19.460 We know that the medical model isn't working.

00:41:23.260 This 10-minute visit of, oh, here, just numb your symptoms and take this for the rest of

00:41:28.880 your life and deal with the side effects doesn't work.

00:41:32.040 But do we know that?

00:41:33.060 I mean, let's look at some data.

00:41:35.960 I don't have it in front of me.

00:41:36.920 You probably have more access.

00:41:38.880 Do we know it doesn't work?

00:41:40.260 Because if we look at longevity of life, if we look at our general health, if we look

00:41:45.160 at our size, we look at our strength, there's a lot of metrics that we can, I think, look

00:41:48.780 at that would point to things are a little bit more favorable health-wise than they were

00:41:54.660 a thousand years ago.

00:41:56.080 A thousand years ago, I'm 42 years old.

00:41:58.940 I probably wouldn't be alive right now.

00:42:00.740 So do we know it doesn't work?

00:42:02.500 Or is it just in certain aspects it doesn't work?

00:42:05.620 So there's, I wouldn't, I am a huge proponent of this is the greatest time to be alive ever.

00:42:12.560 Everything that's going wrong in the world.

00:42:14.080 Yeah, there's challenges, of course.

00:42:15.700 And what an amazing time to be alive.

00:42:19.420 Right, sure.

00:42:20.080 So I get all that.

00:42:21.500 When we look, the stats that I look at in regards to are, is the existing treatment of mental

00:42:28.880 health working?

00:42:29.920 I look at things like the increase in depression, the increase in anxiety, the increase in teen

00:42:35.420 suicide, and 20-some veterans a day killing themselves, in the loneliness epidemic that

00:42:42.200 our Surgeon General talks about, and the people flooding out of churches, the lack of community.

00:42:50.780 Yeah, I'm looking at those statistics.

00:42:52.840 I'm looking, yeah, you might live a long time and might not be having a happy, meaningful

00:42:58.740 life.

00:42:59.940 Those are the types of things that when I question whether they're working or not, that's what

00:43:04.520 I'm questioning.

00:43:05.260 And what I think was unique about psychedelics is that in some ways, they work on a biochemical

00:43:12.100 level.

00:43:12.660 So you can look at ketamine and say, this is going to work with the glutamate system,

00:43:16.560 and it's going to do some things, and it's going to make you not suicidal.

00:43:21.160 Again, breaststrokes, not for everybody.

00:43:25.340 And it can decrease anxiety and decrease depression at a biochemical level.

00:43:29.420 Great.

00:43:30.840 And when you add in the psycho, social, spiritual components of psychedelics, it takes it another

00:43:37.760 step.

00:43:38.720 And that's why when we talk about psychedelics, we say, this is not a cure.

00:43:41.820 You are not taking a pill that's going to cure you of anything.

00:43:45.760 You are taking a pill that's going to be a catalyst for potential lifestyle change.

00:43:51.240 And it's changing the way you look at the world, changing the way you look at yourself.

00:43:55.420 It's going to have some plasticity introduced into your mind so that when you leave that psychedelic

00:44:00.560 session, you can start implementing the changes that you want to implement because now you see

00:44:06.400 a different path forward for you.

00:44:08.720 And that's wild.

00:44:10.660 And that's not what we get with the existing pharmacological solutions.

00:44:15.220 So, but just to go back to what we were saying earlier, what, what then makes it a psychedelic

00:44:21.240 as opposed to what, like, for example, marijuana, that that's not a psychedelic, correct?

00:44:26.500 Not a classic psychedelic.

00:44:27.900 Um, yeah.

00:44:28.500 So what makes it that you're adding the visuals, you're adding the mind expansion.

00:44:32.920 Um, and you get into, we, you get into some nuance here.

00:44:36.940 So for instance, ketamine is not a classic psychedelic, but it's a disassociative anesthetic

00:44:44.760 is technically what it is, but because it allows people to traverse inward, to have these

00:44:51.580 expansions, it has visuals oftentimes associated with it.

00:44:54.880 It is being put into the psychedelic category.

00:44:57.700 Uh, because the way I understand it with ketamine, it does it, does it shut off like pain sensory

00:45:04.560 or, or something along those lines?

00:45:06.680 Or is, is that, is that the purpose or how ketamine works?

00:45:10.380 It can.

00:45:11.500 So, um, so at a, at a, at one level, ketamine is used for anesthesia.

00:45:16.600 Um, and it's a super stable drug for that purpose.

00:45:20.460 When we talk about it for, um, anxiety and depression, you're taking a sub anesthetic dose.

00:45:27.700 So what that feels like is you, if your legs and that your body is heavy, you can move

00:45:35.000 your body if you want to, but you probably don't want to.

00:45:38.760 Um, if you take it for pain, it can, it can help eliminate some of the pain sensors and

00:45:45.900 people are using it as an alternative to opioids.

00:45:48.120 There's a way to get off of opioids.

00:45:49.260 So it's another powerful use of ketamine.

00:45:52.240 Um, when, um, when you take ketamine again for depression, anxiety, it's, it's those things

00:45:58.380 we talked about to the default mode network.

00:46:00.400 It's lighting up the brain.

00:46:01.460 It's removing that sense of anxiety from your shoulders and then allowing you to have a journey

00:46:06.720 within to reprocess different things that have happened.

00:46:09.640 Yeah.

00:46:10.660 What, what are some of the side effects?

00:46:12.460 I mean, cause you talked about one, one, uh, one thing you mentioned earlier is with regards

00:46:18.640 to alcohol use, you know, that's something a lot of men are dealing with something.

00:46:21.920 A lot of men are working to overcome and it's like, okay, well, at what point do I learn to

00:46:25.920 cope with and deal with my propensity to drink more, for example, or the way that I respond

00:46:31.980 to alcohol different than maybe another person?

00:46:34.300 And how do I deal with that versus let's replace it with something else.

00:46:39.580 And maybe that becomes a problem in and of itself.

00:46:43.560 Okay.

00:46:44.100 So you, there's two different grounds here.

00:46:45.580 I'm going to actually go backwards.

00:46:46.520 So first of all, let's talk about, um, psychedelics specifically for substance use challenges.

00:46:52.240 Cause it, I, I completely get that it's counterintuitive.

00:46:56.060 I'm having, I'm having a problem with heroin or cocaine or alcohol, and I'm going to use a

00:47:02.100 drug as part of my salvation.

00:47:04.740 That's counterintuitive.

00:47:05.440 Yeah, exactly.

00:47:06.400 But if you go back in time, even Bill W., the guy who founded Alcoholics Anonymous, wanted

00:47:12.260 LSD to be part of the protocol for Alcoholics Anonymous.

00:47:16.640 Really?

00:47:17.240 Yeah.

00:47:18.420 And the reason it's really kind of a fascinating history.

00:47:20.980 So he talks, AA has this 12 step program, which is effectively a spiritual path wrapped

00:47:27.720 around a unified reason to be on this path, which it started with alcohol, but now there's,

00:47:33.720 there's a, there's a 12 step program for a lot of different things.

00:47:37.180 Sure.

00:47:37.840 The first step is giving, acknowledging there's a higher power.

00:47:43.060 And, uh, and Bill W.

00:47:45.920 Said for, and he was, he, his language is funny.

00:47:48.420 He talked about for drunks.

00:47:49.580 So he said, for drunks, it's gonna be hard to find a, for them to acknowledge as a higher

00:47:52.960 power LSD for is a forced higher power experience.

00:47:58.860 So he wanted that to be one of the steps to help in his words, drunks have a connection

00:48:04.840 to a higher power so that they can proceed down the different steps.

00:48:08.000 It's fascinating in, um, and there was, there was a whole re a province in Canada that LSD

00:48:16.560 was part of the protocol and had great success with alcohol.

00:48:20.500 Um, if I had a child or knew somebody struggling with an opioid, um, addiction right now, I

00:48:26.660 would have them in an, in Ibogaine clinic in a two seconds.

00:48:30.180 It's a, uh, it's one of the few drugs that really have had great, uh, effect on getting

00:48:37.700 people off of heroin.

00:48:39.360 The addiction, the addiction component of it goes away or the craving of it goes away.

00:48:43.600 Like what is exactly, what is exactly is happening?

00:48:46.300 I think with, uh, with heroin, it does, it, it helps you go through the process of getting

00:48:52.020 off of heroin in a less still painful, a less painful manner.

00:48:56.160 And then it helps you see what was causing the behavior that led to the heroin use and

00:49:03.340 then helps you then not do that.

00:49:05.280 So Ibogaine is supposed to be, I have not, that's one psychedelic I've not done.

00:49:09.220 And it sounds incredibly hard in terms of, I've heard stories about like your entire

00:49:13.760 life being everything you've ever done wrong and your entire life coming before your eyes.

00:49:18.820 And through that process, you get an innate, in their sense of the learning that's okay.

00:49:24.420 I don't want to do heroin anymore.

00:49:26.840 Um, alcohol, I think it's similar.

00:49:28.720 What, why are you, why is anybody using alcohol for what purpose?

00:49:32.920 And your body can, through these processes, it's like, okay, I don't need the alcohol

00:49:38.020 to achieve A, B, and C.

00:49:39.880 Um, and then in some cases there's a physical reaction where it's like, I don't want the

00:49:44.460 alcohol.

00:49:44.860 My body, I get the idea of alcohol is nauseating to me.

00:49:49.120 Um, which again is, it's kind of wild that this works with a drug and this is not.

00:49:54.400 So, so then you talked about where you're substituting one for the other.

00:49:57.460 Most psychedelics and ketamine is actually an exception to this, but most psychedelics are anti-addictive.

00:50:03.100 Meaning you take a large dose of psilocybin.

00:50:06.500 You don't want to do that the next day.

00:50:08.820 Um, all the animal studies, if you, when you give a choice of psychedelic versus food, they're

00:50:13.820 going to choose food.

00:50:15.000 So, um, it's a different type of addiction than, than alcohol or than cocaine, where the

00:50:20.720 mouse is going to say, oh yeah, no, give me some more of that.

00:50:22.680 Um, so just different, just something just to understand it.

00:50:26.960 It's still a drug, but it's a different type of drug.

00:50:28.980 It works in a different part of your body.

00:50:30.300 You don't have the same addiction, physical, physical addiction potential to this.

00:50:35.340 Um, do you see this for yourself being something that, you know, we're, we're talking about

00:50:41.380 specifically with the use of overcoming certain addictions.

00:50:44.140 Do you personally see this as being something that you will engage in potentially for the

00:50:49.840 rest of your life?

00:50:50.620 Or is this like, Hey, I'm going to experiment with this.

00:50:53.340 I'm going to see if I unlock some different things for me.

00:50:56.040 I'm going to see how it might improve my life.

00:50:57.640 And then, you know, you check it off that list, for example, and feel like, okay, well,

00:51:01.400 I've got that done and I've got that taken care of.

00:51:03.480 And I don't feel like I need to continue to use this like an alcoholic, for example, is

00:51:07.840 like, Hey, I just want to get drunk again.

00:51:09.300 Cause I don't want to deal with whatever I'm dealing with.

00:51:11.740 Yeah.

00:51:12.220 I, so for me, when I personally take psychedelics, I do it in a ceremonial setting, um, where I'm,

00:51:19.180 where I'm, where I know my, the source of the medicine is, is good that there's a person

00:51:23.740 there that I trust immensely that everybody who's there has rules on, on how we're going

00:51:28.080 to engage with each other.

00:51:29.940 Um, and I'm there to connect to, uh, to again, to it's, it's like going to church for me.

00:51:36.740 It's like, I'm going to connect to a higher power and I get to explore myself at the same

00:51:40.840 time.

00:51:41.140 It's my time carved out to dive deep and to see, what do I need to think about?

00:51:45.860 What are the gaps in my life?

00:51:47.200 Where can I be a better person, better, uh, human?

00:51:50.400 Um, so I see it as a, as an ongoing, but not regular, but an ongoing, yeah.

00:51:59.220 Ongoing part of life that I will continue to use these, uh, medicines and ceremonial use

00:52:05.180 for, yeah, I think the rest of my life.

00:52:07.700 Um, but it's not something you do every day or every week.

00:52:10.880 It's, it's an every once in a while.

00:52:13.540 That's what I was going to ask.

00:52:14.580 Are there experiences that you've had where you think, God, I'd really like to do that

00:52:18.180 again, where you do have a desire to do that maybe more frequently, whether it's monthly,

00:52:22.360 quarterly, or, or even more frequent than that.

00:52:24.920 Um, so the best practice in this space is to, is also to be aware of, you need to have

00:52:30.620 what's called integration.

00:52:32.080 So you take a, take a large, a psychedelic, you do an advanced preparation.

00:52:36.160 What's your intention?

00:52:37.160 What are you coming in for?

00:52:38.440 You have your ceremony.

00:52:39.620 And then for a month, a quarter, even a year, you're processing what came up for you.

00:52:45.380 Cause a lot can come up.

00:52:47.240 Um, there have been times when that was beautiful.

00:52:50.520 That was just an incredibly beautiful experience.

00:52:52.620 Um, I had one, the other, I guess, a few months ago at this point where, um, I, I got

00:52:58.640 to hold my father's hand like a hundred times.

00:53:01.700 And what's weird about that for me is, is like, he was a, he was a challenging father.

00:53:07.300 He was a, he was an alcoholic.

00:53:08.860 He had a temper.

00:53:10.360 Um, I was always the peacemaker in the house, but in this journey, it was like, wow.

00:53:15.640 Okay.

00:53:15.860 I got to reconnect with him and remember all these different times when he was trying to

00:53:20.720 show me in his way that he loved me.

00:53:23.640 I was like, that's beautiful.

00:53:24.700 That's there's, there's a lot there.

00:53:25.940 He died when he was a 62.

00:53:28.020 Um, so I didn't really have an adult relationship with him.

00:53:32.000 But I was able to reconnect.

00:53:33.200 So yeah, it was, I came out and I was like, that's gorgeous.

00:53:35.480 I would love to be able to do that again.

00:53:37.360 And maybe I'll get a chance to, in a future journey, maybe I won't.

00:53:40.360 Cause you can't steer the medicine that way.

00:53:43.580 That's what I was going to ask is if there are a way to, cause you're talking about this

00:53:46.680 preparation.

00:53:47.460 Is there a way to navigate the experience that you have or certain experiences that you'd

00:53:51.880 like to like to engage in?

00:53:54.280 Yeah.

00:53:54.640 You can ask them.

00:53:56.000 And then the best practice is to try to get that preparation down, your intentions down.

00:54:00.580 Um, but ask, ask what you're asking the medicine, but you're asking your body, you're asking

00:54:05.240 yourself.

00:54:05.740 I'd like to play in this journey.

00:54:07.520 I would like to reconnect with my parents, my ancestors, whatever you can ask, um, for

00:54:13.540 that as your intention, but there's no telling whether that's actually what's going to happen

00:54:18.180 or not.

00:54:18.580 So it's like my kids asking for, you know, ice cream right before bed.

00:54:22.740 Like you can ask, but like that ain't going to happen.

00:54:25.900 So, or, or it might happen, but it's, you just, again, you're, you're, I, it's not like

00:54:32.440 driving where it's that you can, you can steer to those levels of the subconscious.

00:54:36.740 I got it.

00:54:38.020 Yeah.

00:54:38.220 It's different.

00:54:39.020 Or navigating a dream.

00:54:40.520 You know, there's like, if you think about this thing a hundred times before you go to

00:54:43.960 bed, then you'll dream about it.

00:54:45.200 I'm like, yeah, okay.

00:54:46.120 I've tried that before.

00:54:46.980 That doesn't work.

00:54:47.600 That beautiful woman did not show up in my dreams.

00:54:49.520 She did not show up.

00:54:51.380 Yeah.

00:54:51.940 I totally get that.

00:54:53.100 Um, so yeah, you can, you can, you can ask, sometimes you can steer a little bit, but

00:54:57.080 not to that level.

00:54:59.160 Yeah.

00:55:00.060 Yeah.

00:55:01.260 What are, what, again, I don't know that we, I have so many questions and I'm taking notes

00:55:05.980 here and I'm getting you off on different tangents and things like that, but what, um, we,

00:55:11.260 we didn't talk about side effects really.

00:55:12.880 You know, we talked about use of, of addiction, but we didn't, uh, we didn't talk about what

00:55:18.000 side effects somebody might need to be aware of.

00:55:20.160 So let's stick with ketamine first and side effects, because that's again, for most of

00:55:24.040 your audience, that's the legal option.

00:55:25.420 If they go to a doctor, they can get that prescribed.

00:55:28.540 Um, there's short-term and long-term side effects.

00:55:32.120 So the short-term are things like disorientation or nausea, um, increase in blood pressure.

00:55:38.740 But when you're working with a doctor with ketamine, if you have untreated high blood

00:55:43.140 pressure, they're not going to let you have the ketamine.

00:55:44.620 So that's where being a, that that's a danger.

00:55:48.600 That's a risk reduction area.

00:55:50.520 Um, you're going to, you might have some hallucinations.

00:55:53.020 Um, they can be visual, they can be auditory, all that's short-term long-term there's, there

00:55:58.980 can be bladder issues.

00:56:01.600 There's not a, um, there's not a link in the research for medicinal use of ketamine with

00:56:09.340 any significant long-term side effects.

00:56:12.360 There are studies with recreational use where people have gone way beyond what, uh, what you

00:56:18.320 would get in a medical setting and have done it at a frequency that is a wildly different.

00:56:23.900 They've ended up having bladder challenges.

00:56:25.260 Um, it's completely different though, than the side effects that are, uh, on antidepressants.

00:56:32.000 So it's, uh, so that's, that's kind of ketamine.

00:56:34.760 Yeah, it's, it's, it's a relatively short list.

00:56:36.840 There are some others and, and any doctor you're working with is going to give you an informed

00:56:40.640 consent document.

00:56:41.700 That's going to talk about all the potential side effects, but the, uh, on a percentage

00:56:45.740 basis, they're low.

00:56:47.380 And for the majority of them, they go away when the medicine stops.

00:56:52.320 And, uh, and just quickly ketamine is something you can go into a clinic and get it through

00:56:56.420 an IV or internasally.

00:56:58.880 You can get through a shot.

00:57:00.280 And then a number of people are going to the telehealth ketamine where they get sent these

00:57:04.860 lozenges that you put under your tongue.

00:57:06.760 You let it sit there for 10 or 15 minutes, whatever your doctor tells you, you spit it

00:57:10.460 out.

00:57:10.720 And then you have about a 40 minute, 40 to an hour minute journey with, uh, with ketamine.

00:57:16.320 So that's how that's given the side.

00:57:19.780 Why do you call it a journey?

00:57:21.260 That's it sounds like that's a euphemism for it is it's a trip or whatever 40, 40 minute

00:57:27.920 to an hour trip versus psilocybin when you're talking about a six hour trip.

00:57:32.180 So it's just different.

00:57:33.800 Um, but what's the point of calling it a journey?

00:57:36.480 I mean, that seems like we're, we're putting a different spin on it that, that, I mean,

00:57:40.180 puts it in a positive context versus a negative one for sure.

00:57:43.540 But what about, it makes it a journey as opposed to, yeah, I just felt better for 40 minutes.

00:57:50.380 So I, I think when, when used with intention and when you're paying attention to set setting

00:57:56.360 and source, so you're trying to, so what I'd call, I even, it's a challenging word, but

00:58:01.040 responsible psychedelic use.

00:58:03.120 Um, again, I'm not trying to judge people who choose to do it without those things.

00:58:07.980 Um, but when you do, when you're paying attention and giving intention to what this is doing,

00:58:14.320 I believe it becomes a journey.

00:58:15.560 It's, it's a, it's, you're looking into yourself.

00:58:17.820 You're choosing to do this versus I was at a concert and took some psychedelics and I went

00:58:23.640 on a trip.

00:58:24.580 So it just feels different.

00:58:26.180 And more of the intentionality behind it is what you're saying.

00:58:29.140 Yeah.

00:58:29.700 Yeah.

00:58:30.400 That makes sense to me.

00:58:31.240 I'm just curious why you use that verbiage.

00:58:33.120 Yep.

00:58:33.900 And then the side effects with the, again, the classic psychedelics.

00:58:37.140 So we talk about LSD and mushrooms and is, um, again, during this experience, it's all

00:58:43.500 sorts of things.

00:58:44.220 It's, it can be visually and, and audio, audio, audio, uh, you know what I mean?

00:58:49.480 Hearing, uh, hallucinations, um, you can get into some very, uh, emotional experiences with

00:58:56.740 these medicines.

00:58:57.740 Um, and for the most part, when the drugs finish and leave the body, the side effects go away.

00:59:06.960 Now there are, again, different side effects, different medicines where you get things called

00:59:12.480 reactivations, um, where they come back and they trigger again when you're not on the drugs.

00:59:18.700 But again, those are rare.

00:59:20.620 Um, and with the classic psychedelics, we're talking about a very, very small, uh, percentage

00:59:26.720 of people have that type of a side effect or they wouldn't be doing it like this.

00:59:31.400 Right.

00:59:31.960 Sure.

00:59:32.300 Yeah, of course.

00:59:34.020 Yeah.

00:59:34.380 Because they, they don't want to experience that again.

00:59:36.620 Right.

00:59:37.620 Yeah.

00:59:38.260 Yeah.

00:59:38.500 For the most part.

00:59:40.220 Um, so a couple other questions as you wind things down today.

00:59:43.440 Number one, if somebody is listening to this, obviously I want to direct them towards your

00:59:46.660 book.

00:59:46.980 And I think that's the most important thing.

00:59:48.680 I, again, I'm, I'm a skeptic, you know, so I came to this and try to be as, as, as level

00:59:53.880 with my questioning as I, as I possibly could and trying to see the positives and negatives

00:59:57.580 and ups and downs.

00:59:58.820 But I would definitely encourage somebody to get a copy of the book, which is psychedelics

01:00:02.880 for everyone.

01:00:03.400 That way you can actually go through it and decide for yourself, which I think is important.

01:00:07.620 But my last two questions, number one is where does somebody start along this journey?

01:00:13.360 And then my second question is if you've decided where you want to start is where do you go

01:00:18.020 to participate in these things?

01:00:19.740 Because we're talking about in a lot of cases, illegal drug use.

01:00:24.140 So there's ways that you'd have to navigate that as well.

01:00:27.920 Yeah, that's totally fair.

01:00:29.840 So, I mean, I, I love, uh, again, in addition to my book, I really think Michael Pollan and

01:00:33.960 how to change your mind, that book is beautiful.

01:00:35.880 And for those who are not big readers or want to have a conversation starter with their spouse,

01:00:41.860 um, there's a four part series on Netflix on how to change your mind.

01:00:45.520 That is just spectacular.

01:00:46.920 Um, and he's, he's just such a good journalist.

01:00:50.440 He's done a good job and he, in his sixties decided, okay, the non-drug user, I'm going

01:00:54.460 to try a bunch of these different psychedelics and I'm going to write about them.

01:00:57.660 And it's a, yeah, really, it's a great book.

01:00:59.720 Um, so where do you go?

01:01:01.720 Um, so ketamine, like I said, is legal in all 50 States.

01:01:05.400 If you're looking for something legal, go talk to your doctor, um, psychiatrist, uh,

01:01:10.580 go online to one of the telehealth companies in your state.

01:01:13.740 Um, and ketamine is a good option.

01:01:15.600 Uh, again, assuming that you don't have the contraindications that we talked about before.

01:01:20.020 If you are looking for, um, something other than that, your one option is medical or psychedelic

01:01:27.800 tourism.

01:01:28.240 So go to the Netherlands, uh, central or South America, Jamaica, um, and find a retreat with

01:01:35.820 the medicine that you're looking at.

01:01:37.300 Uh, Mexico has a bunch as well.

01:01:39.220 And, um, and, and try one of those places.

01:01:42.560 And then the third option is what we call the underground, um, which can be either underground

01:01:47.720 church, which typically they believe they are operating legally under the religious freedom

01:01:52.960 restoration act and freedom of first amendment, um, or different, uh, indigenous providers

01:01:59.480 or, or, or shaman or guides, whatever they call, um, operating in your area.

01:02:04.880 And, and with all of that, I just urge extreme caution to, uh, we can spend an hour just on

01:02:11.660 how do you reduce the risk of, uh, and pick the right underground provider.

01:02:17.600 But I, that at its base, do you have, have you gotten it from a, someone you trust who

01:02:23.380 said, okay, I have personally done this, or I know someone who has, and this person is

01:02:26.760 good.

01:02:27.600 Have you talked to them about how experienced they are and are you comfortable with whatever

01:02:30.880 answers they gave?

01:02:32.260 Did they do a medical intake of some sort on you so that you know that there's someone

01:02:37.540 looking at the, at your medical and, um, mental and physical history and making a determination

01:02:43.840 of whether you're a good fit for this medicine.

01:02:45.600 Do they have some type of preparation, uh, where they help you set your intention?

01:02:49.900 Do they have some type of integration where they, um, they help you on the other side

01:02:54.560 come to come through this, um, no matter what you do, whether it's legal above ground tourism

01:03:01.080 underground, these are the questions you should be asking.

01:03:04.240 Yeah.

01:03:04.700 I'm, I'm really glad you brought that up because you know, if a guest comes on and says you should

01:03:09.420 wake up a half an hour earlier, do a cold, cold water plunge.

01:03:12.640 Like there's not a lot of downside to those things.

01:03:15.560 And, you know, my disclaimer would not need to be as relevant on something like that.

01:03:19.860 Read more books.

01:03:20.720 It's like, okay, well, I think we'll all be safe.

01:03:22.580 If we do that, we're, we're talking about things that, you know, could potentially have

01:03:28.380 some serious ramifications.

01:03:30.160 And I think it's important that you don't just listen to this podcast, but that you actually

01:03:34.860 go out and do the research with qualified people and decide if this is something that

01:03:39.460 is going to be a fit for you or not.

01:03:41.980 Absolutely.

01:03:42.960 And, um, and in the book, in my book, I had different writers come in and write different

01:03:47.240 sections, but then I had every chapter, um, medically reviewed just to have, again, another

01:03:53.020 perspective to make sure we're not giving false medical information.

01:03:56.720 Um, but even with that, this is all just a starting point to help people on their path.

01:04:02.740 Um, and, and I, I strongly recommend get talk, talk to people you trust and make the decision

01:04:09.920 that you think is right for you based on, based on all this type of information.

01:04:14.240 So Matt, why don't you tell the guys where to get the copy of the book, the best place

01:04:17.360 to go, and then also how to connect with you and learn more about what you're doing.

01:04:21.600 I appreciate that, Ryan.

01:04:23.200 So psychedelics for everyone is available everywhere that, uh, books are sold.

01:04:26.760 There's also an audible version of it.

01:04:29.240 Um, if you are already on or taking a journey, I have a book called beyond the trip, which

01:04:34.560 is a preparation and integration journal that is also available on Amazon.

01:04:39.260 And then, uh, mattzieman.com is my site.

01:04:42.200 And I'm really, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and Instagram.

01:04:44.480 So if, uh, there's any questions I can answer for you, those are great places to reach out to

01:04:48.560 me.

01:04:49.420 Awesome.

01:04:49.860 We'll sync everything up.

01:04:51.060 So the guys know where to go.

01:04:51.980 I appreciate you.

01:04:52.940 I appreciate you answering some of these questions.

01:04:54.700 I tried to give you questions that maybe you hadn't heard of before, because I know you're

01:04:58.060 doing a lot of conversations now with the, with the book coming out and I'm, I'm interested,

01:05:02.380 I'm engaged.

01:05:02.940 So I'm going to look more into it and see if this is something that could potentially be

01:05:06.160 part of my path as well.

01:05:07.160 So I appreciate you, Matt.

01:05:08.400 Thank you very much.

01:05:09.120 Ryan.

01:05:09.360 Thank you.

01:05:09.800 I appreciate you.

01:05:11.820 All right, gentlemen, there you go.

01:05:12.860 My conversation with Matt Zeman.

01:05:14.540 I hope you enjoyed it.

01:05:15.440 Uh, very fascinating for me.

01:05:16.800 Obviously my line of questioning probably alluded to the fact that I don't know a whole lot

01:05:21.680 about this world and I am very curious and very skeptical by nature.

01:05:25.320 So I hope I gave you a fair conversation and asked questions that were challenging, uh, and,

01:05:30.480 and made you think about, is this something that I should look into for myself?

01:05:34.640 Or maybe you, you know, of somebody who might benefit from reading more about the use of

01:05:40.640 psychedelics, uh, make sure you pick up a copy of Matt's latest book, psychedelics for everyone

01:05:44.840 connect with him on the gram, connect with me on the gram, pick up a copy of the 12 week

01:05:49.640 battle planner.

01:05:50.260 If you're trying to improve your goal planning situation for the rest of the year, the remainder

01:05:55.280 of the half year that we have left of 2023.

01:05:57.640 And also last thing, take a screenshot, let people know what you're listening to, let people

01:06:03.300 know where they can go to find this information.

01:06:05.360 I believe as men, if we have something of value to share, then it's our moral responsibility,

01:06:10.380 even obligation to share that with other people who will be positively impacted by what we're

01:06:16.480 consuming.

01:06:17.040 All right, guys, appreciate everybody tuning in again, connect with Matt and myself on Instagram,

01:06:21.980 Facebook, Twitter, wherever you're doing the social media thing.

01:06:23.940 And, uh, let's go out there and take action and become a man.

01:06:27.400 We are meant to be.

01:06:29.140 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:06:31.620 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:06:35.420 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

MATT ZEMON ｜ A Beginner's Guide to Psychedelics

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