Order of Man - MAX BORDERS ｜ Will a New Revolution Cure What Ails Us？

00:00:00.000 All of us agree that the current political system is not working and it doesn't matter

00:00:04.660 where you sit on the political divide. With the federal government consolidating and amassing

00:00:10.180 power, it's becoming increasingly difficult to see how they're serving the people instead of

00:00:16.860 the beast that it's become. But what's the answer? Is there a solution that moves closer to what

00:00:22.680 America's founding fathers had envisioned nearly 250 years ago? My guest today, Max Borders,

00:00:27.600 joins to talk about the concepts of his newest book, Underthrow, how Jefferson's dangerous ideas

00:00:33.920 will spark a new revolution. We talk about what it truly means to be free, the idea of a quote-unquote

00:00:41.040 national divorce, where socialized services work and where they go too far, the power of 1.00

00:00:46.260 decentralization, how innovation is an act of subversion, and the difference between an overthrow

00:00:52.720 and an underthrow to change the world. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest,

00:00:58.080 embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up

00:01:03.160 one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:10.300 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day,

00:01:15.300 and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on

00:01:20.780 today? My name is Ryan Michler. I'm your host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and

00:01:24.700 movement. Welcome here today. This is a big two weeks for us. We opened enrollment to our exclusive

00:01:32.900 fraternal organization called the Iron Council and want to extend an invite to you. We're going to be

00:01:38.680 open until the end of this month, September, and would love to have you join. I could go on and

00:01:44.660 on about the benefits, but I want to share a quick testimonial before we get into the conversation

00:01:48.520 today. This comes from one of our members of the Iron Council. It's Marcus Segura. He says,

00:01:53.160 when I think about the work that needs to be done each birthday, I've wondered how I've got to where I

00:01:59.120 am and how it's been possible. To be honest, it comes down to the men that have served me over the

00:02:04.180 past two years and who continue to have focus that aligns with me, building lives of service,

00:02:09.600 whether this is to ourselves, to our men in our circle, our family, workplace, et cetera,

00:02:15.220 allows for a by-product of personal growth and development to occur beyond our natural

00:02:19.800 and selfish abilities. When you surround yourself with men that have a mission to show up, who you

00:02:25.400 can lean on no matter the circumstances and who will mentor you, guide you, or hold the line of

00:02:30.720 accountability, the achievements are unparalleled. In the spirit of Memento Mori,

00:02:35.080 I choose to work beside these men to serve and to be served so that I can rest having had a life of

00:02:41.640 value, meaning, fulfillment, and peace. My why the Iron Council is one of the greatest impacts of my

00:02:49.300 life. So a quick testimonial, I'll share one with you a little bit later in the episode, but again,

00:02:54.700 I don't want to just ramble at you all the benefits. There's so many men, over a thousand men now being

00:02:58.940 served inside the Iron Council and who are serving others. And if you're interested in learning more

00:03:03.300 about what we're doing there, head to order a man.com slash Iron Council. That's order a man.com

00:03:08.320 slash Iron Council. Guys, let's get into the conversation today. I've got Max Borders on. He

00:03:15.360 is the founder and executive director of Social Evolution, which is a nonprofit organization,

00:03:20.380 and they're dedicated to liberating humanity through innovation. He's also the co-founder of

00:03:27.260 the Future Frontiers Conference and Festival. His books include The Decentralist,

00:03:32.040 The Social Singularity After Collapse, and of course, his latest book, Underthrow,

00:03:37.400 How Jefferson's Dangerous Ideas Will Spark a New Revolution. Enjoy, fellas.

00:03:44.400 Max, good to see you. Glad you could join me on the podcast today.

00:03:48.200 Thank you so much.

00:03:49.780 Yeah, I'm always intrigued when, obviously, we're talking a little bit about, or we will be talking

00:03:55.360 about politics in this and government specifically. And I'm always intrigued when

00:04:00.900 there's interesting and fascinating ideas that I don't know if I necessarily agree with 100%,

00:04:05.980 but I'm so glad that we can have these types of conversations, whether we agree or not,

00:04:12.260 so we can come to some sort of conclusion. Because I don't think what we're doing right now seems to be

00:04:17.660 working very well for the common man.

00:04:19.520 Right on. Couldn't agree more with that. Who knows what's before us. But yeah, I totally agree

00:04:27.840 about that. It's not working.

00:04:29.880 Well, you talk a lot about the concept of decentralized systems as a way to minimize big

00:04:36.760 government. I think most people are probably familiar with it when it comes to state sovereignty,

00:04:42.760 for example, over federal sovereignty. But it seems to me like you're talking about something

00:04:47.100 even more decentralized than a state level. Am I understanding you correctly?

00:04:52.760 Certainly. Yeah, that could be the case. Texas, for example, is a big state.

00:04:58.120 And Texas might want to be able to break up into further or other jurisdictions, depending on

00:05:05.220 where someone lands and what they want their communities to look like.

00:05:09.860 And the kind of the kind of rules and laws they want to instantiate in their communities

00:05:13.700 as sovereign peoples.

00:05:16.840 What is how would you define community? Because that could be my neighborhood of, you know,

00:05:21.980 five to 10 houses, or it could be a community of 100,000 people. So at what level are you

00:05:27.340 advocating for with regards to the community level of of governance?

00:05:33.440 Well, if you think about the stuff that we we want to talk about as being in our community,

00:05:39.020 we're talking about land and what sits on land. So some of the stuff in terra firma,

00:05:44.620 on terra firma, it's important to think, what, how do I want to live? And how do we want to

00:05:50.960 instantiate, you know, roads, lights, schools, local things, right? And how do we maximize

00:05:58.960 everybody's participation in this at the most local feasible level? That is, of course, important

00:06:04.880 in that that's where there we're talking about territorial goods. But most of what we talk about

00:06:09.720 when we think about a constitution is not territorial goods at all. So it kind of doesn't

00:06:15.120 make any sense that I have to oblige my neighbor to live the exact way I do. And this is a crazy idea

00:06:22.800 from this Belgian thinker named Dupuit, who wrote this in 1860. He's basically like, instead of you being

00:06:30.360 a monarchist, a Republican, a Democrat, a whatever you like, why can't you just subscribe to your own

00:06:39.680 sort of civil association? So we can have one sense of community, which is, hey, I need to get to know

00:06:48.560 my neighbors, we need to look out for each other. And we can make collective decisions about what we

00:06:54.420 want to see in our communities at a local scale. But the other sense of community is there are a bunch

00:06:59.920 of people around the world who think maybe that people ought to be more sovereign in general,

00:07:07.700 and treat that as a mission, right? And those sovereign people, people who are into the idea

00:07:14.820 of self-sovereignty, might be a sprinkle here and a handful there, but together, they can self-organize

00:07:23.040 under their own species of law. And they might not all be in the United States. Some might be in

00:07:28.420 Canada, some might be on the other side of the world, but they share those values. So it's getting

00:07:35.940 people to think about this idea of decoupling law from conquered territory, which is the way history

00:07:40.880 is borne out. This would be a significant change from that. Yeah, I'm wondering about, like, if we were

00:07:46.880 to take this to the nth degree, it would be me deciding how I'm going to basically live my life and

00:07:52.820 lead myself. And although I can certainly make the case for that, there's also an inherent risk in

00:08:00.760 that I could be a potential danger to the society, right? Or in this case, my neighborhood, you know,

00:08:09.360 if we're coming down to a small area, I could say, well, you know, I want that my neighbors,

00:08:13.920 you know, whatever. So I'll just go ahead and walk into his house and grab his TB off the wall,

00:08:18.200 and I'll go ahead and take that. Or I might have an issue with the junker that's, you know,

00:08:25.380 sat out in my neighbor's yard for the past two years. I think there is some sort of consensus,

00:08:30.840 and I'm not sure what level it's at, where we decide, hey, collectively, we're going to decide

00:08:35.740 what's good for us as a whole. And that's the question I'm really trying to get at is,

00:08:41.000 at what level or what degree do we start enforcing some of what we think will be good for the collective?

00:08:48.200 Right. And that's a really great point. The way I would describe this, at least under my

00:08:54.380 conception, and other people are going to have other conceptions. That's totally true.

00:08:59.100 We have this thing called the law of torts, okay? The law of torts being a part of the common law.

00:09:04.840 And what it says is, hey, you can't make anybody worse off by taking their property or hitting them

00:09:10.360 in the face or throwing them in jail if they're innocent. The only way you could do that is if you're

00:09:16.340 defending someone or defending your own property. The problem is there's an asymmetry there with

00:09:22.380 respect to the federal level of government in most countries. They take your stuff all the time.

00:09:29.140 It's called taxation, right? Now, that's not to say that we might always in every case not want

00:09:35.940 taxation. But what we're saying is that the level of government, maybe it's the state level,

00:09:42.060 maybe it's the community level, that taxation, if taxation is necessary, it should be necessary

00:09:49.800 where it's needed most, right? And that way-

00:09:53.960 Who gets to determine that? I mean, I think that's the point of the question.

00:09:57.080 Well, sure. But if you get two people, you and I are going to, even if we agree on 99% of the things,

00:10:03.160 we're not going to agree on 100%. So if you and I are in this community, for example,

00:10:07.300 and by the way, I happen to agree with what you're saying. I'm just trying to see this from

00:10:10.960 all perspectives and see what degree it's taken. But if you and I agree 99% of the way about the

00:10:17.080 way that our money pulled together should be spent, let's say we want to bring a third party in and

00:10:21.680 say, hey, you know what, Max, you and I, we're neighbors. You've got your family. I've got mine.

00:10:25.920 We really care about our safety. So we're going to go ahead and hire a security force to make sure

00:10:30.040 that it's protected between you and I. And I want to hire security force A, and you want to hire

00:10:34.680 security force B, who decides? Right. So the question is, and this would be resolved in courts,

00:10:42.640 right? What level of government does that need to be determined? Right. Correct. It may be that we

00:10:47.080 each want to hire our own protective associations and that they police our neighborhoods or look after

00:10:53.800 us in whatever fashion they can and customer focused way. It may be that there's, it's good to

00:10:59.300 have a market in protective associations. And that, that, that brings about the same level of

00:11:04.860 competition that the market usually provides. Now, others might say, we don't want that. And we want

00:11:13.120 to engage in an association where we, this is a shared or public good. And that's okay. If there

00:11:20.860 are tensions between those, between and among those associations, those can be resolved in courts.

00:11:25.980 But in advance, you have to, once you are a signatory to a constitution of consent like this

00:11:32.780 or something where instead of law being imposed, you're part of a multilateral contract, you would

00:11:38.240 have, you would then be able to, you would be able to sue an, a counterparty or someone who is

00:11:45.560 opposite you, who agreed to the same thing. Or if they're outside of your jurisdiction, there of course

00:11:51.680 could be courts for resolving those disputes and they would be at a higher level of government.

00:11:55.980 Like the Supreme court. So it's not all, it's not all just like crazy anarchy, right? It's about

00:12:02.820 people self-selecting into their particular, first their particular cultural or moral tribes,

00:12:08.780 and then having that be wrapped in law that makes sure that there is dispute, peace of dispute

00:12:15.540 resolution. Because right now what we're living in is in a case where everybody's fighting over the

00:12:21.440 same set of authorities to try to impose their will on everybody else.

00:12:26.280 Right.

00:12:26.760 And we know, you and I both know that that ain't working. So even if you can poke holes in what

00:12:31.860 I'm trying to do with this constitution of consent contest, even if we landed on something that is

00:12:36.700 more like Switzerland, which is a very peaceful country, has a long, has a really good, you know,

00:12:42.960 long history of, you know, relative peace where the cantons, which are their version of a state,

00:12:50.380 they're, they're, they're, they're as powerful as the federal government. Most of the action is at

00:12:56.080 the level of canton. And if you don't like it within Switzerland, you can vote with your feet.

00:12:59.660 And that's sort of, that's sort of the American tradition that has been lost. We call it the

00:13:05.140 10th amendment, right? In America, where everything is supposed to be carried out at the state or at

00:13:13.900 the level of the state or the level of the people, which is exactly what it says in the 10th amendment.

00:13:18.820 And yet how much of what the federal government does contravenes that almost everything.

00:13:24.480 So what we have now in the, in the constitution that I cherish is simply not being respected and

00:13:32.520 power is acting with impunity. The sovereign men out there who are listening to this podcast

00:13:37.780 know they can do better. And they were guaranteed it not in the constitution, but in the declaration

00:13:42.560 of independence by Thomas Jefferson's pen, where Thomas Jefferson said, we have a right to life,

00:13:48.880 liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And to the extent that government doesn't,

00:13:52.680 doesn't allow us that we have a right to abolish it. That is the consent of the governed passage

00:13:57.860 in the declaration of independence. I've had a lot of, a lot of folks question my patriotism for even

00:14:03.900 doing this contest. Um, this constitution of consent contest, which we can talk about in a moment.

00:14:09.880 And I just, I just say, Hey, I'm a Jeffersonian. Don't question my patriotism question what this

00:14:16.620 constitution, even though I respect it, I venerate it almost as a sacred document. It's not working

00:14:24.160 anymore. Maybe we need to start over in some fashion. And this just gets people. So even if we got

00:14:30.580 something that where we respected the 10th amendment again, and the constitution we have again, and

00:14:35.640 restrained federal power to the constitution's mandate, that would be awesome. And if my, my little

00:14:42.580 project had some hand in making that happen by changing people, the way people think back to the

00:14:49.540 original ideals of the Republic, I think that'd be awesome. But I also want to say that I want to

00:14:54.980 extend that to people in other countries. If you have Canadian listeners, absolutely. If you have Mexican 0.58

00:14:59.940 listeners, absolutely. There are sovereign people all over the world who believe in the original project

00:15:06.540 of the American founding. I'm taking some notes here. Um, I like the concept. I want to get back

00:15:12.680 to, to your, uh, your constitution of consent, uh, challenge or, or competition, but I liked what you

00:15:19.100 said with regards to voting with your feet, because I think that's what we're beginning to see. Now you

00:15:23.140 see a max X a mass exodus, for example, from California, New York into places like Florida, um, and some of

00:15:29.760 these other more conservative areas we're seeing that now. And I think it isn't until the relative ease of

00:15:34.720 modernity with regards to travel and commerce, digital commerce that has paved the way for us to

00:15:40.640 say, Hey, if we don't like where we are, we have the opportunity to move. I think that was pretty

00:15:45.820 restricted up until relatively recently with again, transportation with digital technology and the

00:15:52.960 internet. Uh, and, and I see, I can see us going down a path of, uh, civil disunion. Uh, and I hope it

00:16:02.640 doesn't, I hope it doesn't turn violent. That's certainly not what I would want, but I can see,

00:16:06.840 uh, I could see certain States or territories rallying around certain concepts. And if you

00:16:13.520 don't like it, you're welcome to leave and go to the neighboring state. What, what are the downsides

00:16:18.360 of something like that? Cause right now where we're a quote unquote United States of America,

00:16:23.120 it seems to me that the, the biggest benefit of that is, uh, the, the power that we have with

00:16:30.200 the dollar, which is weakening, uh, especially in light of, uh, relatively recent developments

00:16:36.080 with countries deciding to use other currency amongst themselves. Uh, and then of course,

00:16:40.940 just our, our physical safety and defense, but I, I'm not sure I see any other downsides than that,

00:16:46.600 but I'm curious what you think. A downside to a dissolution of, uh, of a more United States

00:16:52.640 in favor of a more decentralized one. Yeah. I think there are some potential downsides.

00:16:56.760 Um, if it weren't held together, I mean, and that's the reason I'm doing this project. You've

00:17:02.360 probably heard the term national divorce, right? Right. It's sort of like this project is a way

00:17:08.440 of talking about a national divorce done right instead of a national divorce done wrong. So let's

00:17:13.960 say you have a national divorce done wrong. You could have a breakup of the Republic where it degenerates

00:17:19.680 into warlordism or, or even, you know, stuff like, uh, theocratic States forming. I, I used to live

00:17:27.140 in Texas. Uh, I'm originally from North Carolina, what was living in Texas, uh, in Austin, which is

00:17:33.520 its own little enclave, uh, for, for 12 years and, or for 13 years rather, and now have just come

00:17:40.620 moved back to the Carolinas. I live in South Carolina now, which weirdly speaking was the state

00:17:46.220 that first seceded in the, during the, you know, in advance of the civil war started in South Carolina,

00:17:51.620 right? Right. Yeah. And someone who talks like me, you can hear my accent. I have that North

00:17:55.720 Carolina accent. Someone who talks like me talking about baking secession into the constitution

00:18:01.780 sounds kind of crazy. Like this guy must be some sort of, you know, guilt by association,

00:18:06.920 racist or whatever, uh, which is not true at all. I definitely want at the, at the federal level,

00:18:13.820 something like what we talked about tort law, you don't harm other people or their property,

00:18:18.860 life, liberty, and property to be baked in at the highest level of this particular regime.

00:18:23.960 If you don't have that, you're going to have people saying, well, you, you in this state,

00:18:29.460 you're going to join our state religion, which might be Protestantism, Catholicism,

00:18:33.260 or whatever the majority is in that state. It could be something outlandish in some of these blue,

00:18:39.580 blue states, right? Um, or red states. It could be outlandish. It could be outlandish anywhere you

00:18:47.400 cut it. You could have a theocracy in the red states and you could have crazy social justice 0.57

00:18:51.680 thinking in the, in the blue states and each of them trying to, to self-organize in

00:18:58.060 anti-social ways, I guess you could say, or ways that don't hold together the integrity of a union at

00:19:05.020 all. That could be bad. So you'd have, you'd be able to vote with your feet, but you might have

00:19:10.100 to escape with your, your feet. And that would be a hellish situation. We don't want warlordism

00:19:15.040 and we don't want internecine conflict. The point of this would be to create a situation of peace

00:19:19.900 where we're not constantly fighting, crying our teardrop in the voting booth every four years

00:19:25.840 to hope that the tide will turn. It never does. Instead, the special interests and politicians

00:19:31.640 collude to shaft the rest of us. And then we fight each other. That's the situation we have now and

00:19:37.060 everybody knows it. So what are we going to do about it? And I think the answer is if it's not

00:19:43.920 this thing that I'm describing, at least what I'm doing could inspire somebody to do something else

00:19:50.180 that, that returns us to a state where we have more local sovereignty. So we don't have to fight so

00:19:55.440 much about what gets rammed down everybody's throat from Washington.

00:19:59.300 What do you feel then is the purpose of a federal government? I'm assuming,

00:20:04.000 maybe I shouldn't assume, I guess I'll ask, is there a purpose for a federal government?

00:20:09.520 I mean, I think, you know, the original interpretation of the constitution gets a lot

00:20:14.640 of things right. I don't think the purpose of the federal government from, you know, like the 16th

00:20:21.280 and 17th amendments can go, which is, you know, a tax that's, that not only taxes your income,

00:20:28.860 but takes the states out of the way for, for getting that income. Because when you have states

00:20:33.780 being able to take, take income in and give it to the federal government for its purposes,

00:20:37.920 then you have another check on power. If they're violating their mandate, the states can say,

00:20:43.440 nope, we have the sovereignty to say, you don't get any more of our tax money until you resolve that.

00:20:47.560 So there's stuff like that, that is already in the constitution that makes it great.

00:20:51.760 Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even if you enter my contest,

00:20:55.100 know that there's a lot of value in the constitution, but some of the amendments that

00:21:00.720 have been added, like income tax that takes the states out of the equation and the introduction

00:21:07.080 of senators instead of state legislatures are crappy. And they have helped create the beast,

00:21:13.300 the federal beast that we have now. Now, your original question was, remind me again.

00:21:20.520 Are you referring to the purpose of the federal government? That question?

00:21:25.980 Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. That's, that's where I was getting to. So the federal government

00:21:29.660 does do a lot of important things, but in what it does and is supposed to do versus what it does are

00:21:39.800 two very different things. What it is supposed to do in honoring the constitution, particularly amendment 10,

00:21:45.860 is to restrict all of the things that the government can't, or the government authorities at that highest

00:21:55.360 level cannot do. It is, it should oblige itself to obey its own rules, which it doesn't do.

00:22:01.840 What would be an example of that?

00:22:05.240 Well, I mean, have anything to, where in the constitution do you see anything about healthcare?

00:22:10.940 Hmm. Right. That should be a state level phenomenon. The, you know, if, if you, you know,

00:22:18.700 if you want to have some alternative systems of healthcare that are more similar to places like

00:22:25.500 Singapore, where, you know, you oblige people to, instead of, instead of giving, you know, FICA taxes to

00:22:33.740 pay for Medicare, Medicaid, and social security, people are obliged to set aside money in medical

00:22:41.320 savings accounts and purchase. Even if you, even if you were a little authoritarian about it at the

00:22:47.600 local level, you could experiment with different kinds of measures based on the cultural communities

00:22:53.360 of which you're a member. And those experiments can be replicated. The more we try to impose blanket

00:23:00.740 policies, one size fits all the one true way on everybody, the more we conflict with each other

00:23:07.480 about what that way is, because we all have different ideas of it. So the federal government,

00:23:14.020 if it were to realize its mandate is really to protect the sovereignty of the states and of the

00:23:21.040 people. That's, so that's one thing. Maybe one could argue that it's also to protect the totality

00:23:29.440 of the Republic in terms of our land, but I might even argue that polycentric defense would be better

00:23:36.260 than because it would, you could start to inject market mechanisms right now. We have a bloated

00:23:43.060 empire around the world and an executive power to go to war that's contravenes the constitution

00:23:50.220 every single day. War powers lie with Congress, not the executive. And yet when's the last time we

00:23:54.980 declared war on another country, our military veterans are getting shafted left and right by this

00:24:01.720 military industrial complex and the politicians that feed off of it. Sorry, I didn't mean to go crazy

00:24:06.800 on you, but, um, I get, I don't feel like I get passionate. Yeah. I don't feel like you did. I feel like

00:24:11.540 you're, you're sharing things that are like you said, passionate to you. Um, I actually wrote this down

00:24:15.340 before you mentioned it. And I said, you know, even in the constitution, we talk about the separation of

00:24:19.360 powers, executive, legislative, and judicial. Uh, you know, I get frustrated when Biden signs executive

00:24:24.200 orders, just as much as I got frustrated when Trump did it just as much as I got frustrated when Obama

00:24:29.100 and Bush and Clinton signed executive orders. That's not how the constitution works. So my question

00:24:35.300 then is if we have these checks and balances currently in place with our constitution, uh,

00:24:41.840 and they're not being followed, then why creating a new constitution? Would we expect any different?

00:24:47.280 Well, this is, um, this goes back to the question about Jefferson, right? Um, Jefferson

00:24:54.460 realized already after his first term that there was a serious constitutional crisis developing and

00:25:04.940 he warned about it before he was in France when the constitution was ratified in, uh, 1789,

00:25:10.740 but he warned, he was like, you got, you have this general welfare clause, you have these other clauses

00:25:15.840 that are going to allow power to make a bunch of mischief. Okay. And of course he had written the

00:25:22.020 declaration and I already talked about the things that he said in the declaration. And that of course,

00:25:27.160 all the, the American founders signed, um, and we're scared they were going to get hung for it.

00:25:32.440 Right. Um, but the thing is, if you can opt into law, right? Like if you can be an actual signatory,

00:25:42.040 you're signing the contract, which is to say you are making a commitment that is enforceable,

00:25:47.400 then every single person who is a signatory to that contract is legally liable for, um,

00:25:56.860 not holding up your end of the bargain in terms of responsibilities and has recourse in terms of

00:26:03.220 those who've been charged with the, with protecting your rights. So my belief is that we will,

00:26:09.600 we will, um, we will trust the institutions we build and use together. And if we, if someone

00:26:17.500 were to enter this contest that I'm running and try to win $20,000 or maybe 3000 or 2000 second and

00:26:24.540 third, you could take the constitution we have now, take out all the, take out all of the bad stuff

00:26:30.360 that's been added and all of the original stuff that maybe wasn't working so well, like general welfare

00:26:35.020 clause or interpretations of the comp commerce clause and things like that. And, and do some

00:26:42.220 fixes. That's the kind of thing we're looking for. It's a means of changing our mindsets around how

00:26:48.280 this could be better because otherwise we're just sitting here and going, well, it doesn't work now,

00:26:53.160 but I get how, how could having a new constitution work better? I don't know. It just means let's sit

00:27:00.240 on our hands or try to go up against, uh, you know, the most powerful regime in the world as,

00:27:07.140 you know, people with pistols and AK-47s or whatever. I mean, like, um, you know,

00:27:15.520 Joe Biden made fun of people who, you know, who are, who are in militias and things like that,

00:27:22.240 who are deeply, deeply wedded to the constitutional, the original notion of the constitutional Republic

00:27:28.540 and are worried about the accretion of state power. And he, he made fun of it in a speech. He was like,

00:27:33.260 what are you going to do? We have F-16s. I would remind him that, um, we would probably do the same

00:27:38.920 thing that the Afghanis did when they ran his ass out of, uh, Afghanistan. Um, and, and our, you know, 0.98

00:27:47.260 our military was in a 20 year meat grinder to try to make that nation build over there. But, um,

00:27:53.500 I think that if people are dedicated to, to the ideals that I believe a lot of Americans hold

00:28:00.640 dear, that they would, uh, guard, jealously guard that new constitution. And in time that might wane

00:28:07.940 in time, there might be another need, but going back to Jefferson, Jefferson actually thought that

00:28:13.040 you might need to reconstitute the Republic every 20 years and turn out the, the power with that level

00:28:19.740 of frequency. I don't know if that's the case, but empires fall. We've seen it in Rome. We've seen

00:28:26.100 it in Britain. The way the, the Indians overturned the British Raj in 1945, I think was, uh, was through 0.75

00:28:36.160 peaceful means Satyagraha. Now what they instantiated afterwards, wasn't that great. The Nehru regime was 0.55

00:28:43.220 terrible and they all got poor very quickly, but that's not to say they weren't right to over,

00:28:48.660 to underthrow power the way they did. And I use underthrow instead of overthrow because

00:28:52.580 overthrow is violent, underthrow is peaceful. That's the distinction between the two for you.

00:28:58.360 Yes, sir. Got it. What happens to those individuals who decide, cause you're talking

00:29:03.300 about signing this quote unquote legal binding contract in this new constitution of consent.

00:29:07.940 What happens to those individuals who say, no, I'm not interested in that.

00:29:11.640 They'll have basic rights afforded to them. Um, in the, in the, and that would be covered on

00:29:17.980 stuff like the common law. Um, so it, you, there would be a kind of, uh, a unilateral

00:29:25.100 granting them basic rights. You can't run roughshod over people and expect not to,

00:29:30.820 not to be sued or not to be, have some sort of recourse, but there would be certain provisions

00:29:36.560 that they would not have to, uh, there would be certain provisions that they would not be able

00:29:41.400 to expect. So it would not be imposed. It would be chosen. Yeah. This, this kind of reminds me a

00:29:47.260 little bit of a, uh, uh, uh, union, for example, where you have a worker who decides, well, I'm not

00:29:52.100 going to join a union, which I can certainly understand why. Uh, and, but the advocate for

00:29:58.280 the union says, well, this individual is going to reap all the benefits without having to, uh, uh,

00:30:03.180 make any of the sacrifice. And, and that's a whole other conversation. I'm not advocating for

00:30:07.620 unions by any means, please do not misunderstand me, but this is the potential argument is you have

00:30:13.360 an individual who's like, I'm not going to sign that I'll reap all the benefits of what you guys

00:30:16.380 are doing, but I'm not going to be held liable for any of that. Well, it's easier to do something

00:30:21.520 like that when you have local stuff. And that's why local, you know, sort of like municipal rules or

00:30:29.100 laws will be, may look differently or have a different character than national stuff. Um, because

00:30:37.460 it's easier to free ride locally than it is nationally. Um, but that's all going to depend

00:30:43.780 on how that, how that original social contract, you'll, you'll hear a lot of people talk about

00:30:49.520 the social contract and it's almost never a real contract, right? It's something that they've

00:30:55.700 dreamed up in their mind and thinks sounds wonderful. The social contract. And it comes out

00:30:59.780 of a, a very fine tradition going back to lock in Thomas Hobbes, but, um, real social contracts

00:31:09.340 are an artifact of people's choice and consent. And that makes it a lot stronger.

00:31:15.180 We have people who sit on neighboring States all the time and, and there are conflicts and those are

00:31:21.580 resolved in courts. I see it as very much the same way. Courts can resolve these and build it in

00:31:27.300 to precedent. The way you resolve these kinds of frictions between and among those subsidiary

00:31:33.740 jurisdictions, even if someone is not a signatory to the constitution, but in some sense, affording

00:31:39.560 people, basic rights is kind of like a thing you want to do anyway, man. Let me just step away from

00:31:46.960 the conversation very briefly. As I mentioned earlier in the conversation or the podcast, the iron council

00:31:51.820 is open for enrollment right now. Uh, many of you know that the thousand plus members are working

00:31:58.040 hard inside the iron council to grow in every aspect of their lives. But if you're unfamiliar

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00:32:07.600 that are going to drive your growth. We have structured accountability to ensure that you're

00:32:12.060 hitting the goals that you identify for yourself and also powerful networking. So you can build out

00:32:17.560 your own band of brothers of high caliber men. Uh, this is a powerful testimonial from Jose Vela.

00:32:24.160 He says, since joining the IC, I have become a better man than ever before all my life. I was

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00:32:55.060 finally have plenty of male role models to look up to. I am able to focus on me for the first time

00:33:01.220 ever. Again, that comes from Jose Vela. So, uh, guys, if you've been on the fence about joining

00:33:06.140 iron council or don't even know what it is and you're interested, head to order a man.com slash

00:33:10.240 iron council. That's order a man.com slash iron council. Now let's get back to the conversation

00:33:16.060 with max. Well, I don't, I don't think we even afford them. If I think we, we decide collectively

00:33:23.300 we're going to preserve them because no individual can grant me a right. We can only work to protect

00:33:28.720 those rights. They're given to me through God. So you can't afford me anything. You can just work

00:33:33.800 to protect it. I appreciate the spirit of that. Um, and yet at the end of the day, pragmatically

00:33:42.120 speaking, the, the powers that be in collusion with corporations and special interests, uh, are

00:33:51.040 taking away our rights every day systematically. I agree, but that doesn't undermine my argument

00:33:56.700 that the right is derived from God, but you're, you're absolutely right. Is that there are those bad

00:34:03.000 actors who are deliberately and intentionally for their own selfish pursuits working to strip those

00:34:08.660 rights from me? So I don't think, yeah, I don't think we're far apart in our agreement. Maybe just

00:34:13.980 the semantics we're using about where rights are derived from. Yeah. And look, I returned to the

00:34:21.100 declaration, uh, life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness is, uh, based on Lockean's, uh, we're

00:34:28.120 doubted by our creator, it says, right? So that as a body of law, if you think of the declaration of

00:34:38.020 independence as being a dual charter with the constitution, then you're absolutely right.

00:34:43.760 Whatever your theological perspective, that's what the law says. Even if you don't believe in God,

00:34:50.180 this is the way we're doing things. Does that make sense? So I'm not, I wouldn't, I wouldn't even

00:34:56.500 want to get into a theological discussion about the purpose, about where rights come from, except to

00:35:02.200 acknowledge what you're saying and saying, yes, as, as far as we're concerned right now, if you're an

00:35:07.000 American, that is the law, the declaration of independence ought to be considered part of the

00:35:13.020 body of law. I think it's important to the degree that we recognize that where it comes from and that

00:35:19.760 it's objective and that there's a standard, and then we can work to administer it how best we can as

00:35:25.660 flawed humans. Uh, not that it's our, not that it's our purpose or even our place to issue rights to

00:35:35.100 other individuals or say what they can and can't do. I, I just don't have the authority to do that.

00:35:41.140 Exactly. That on that, we agree. I, all I'm saying is that's the way the powerful think is that they

00:35:48.820 allocate rights and we've got to, and we've got to do something about that. And if you're to the extent

00:35:56.180 that you're, you know, you have religious listeners, um, I hope that we can all collectively become

00:36:05.340 instruments of God's will, instantiating rights and freedoms again in this country and, and indeed the

00:36:13.980 world to the extent it's possible. And that's the cool thing about this, a constitution of consent is

00:36:19.780 it's not just our, our, our God-given rights aren't just for Americans anymore. It's for anybody who

00:36:26.600 wants to live under its auspices. And we can have a constellation of people all over the world who live

00:36:32.420 by and through the original charter of human rights, which is the declaration and thus also the

00:36:41.160 constitution. Well, I like that. Yeah. And I like that you're talking about this because I I've seen

00:36:47.820 a tremendous problem. We'll say with, I spent some time in the military as in Iraq and in 2005 and 2006.

00:36:55.680 And you know, what I get really frustrated with is, is the West specifically America trying to dictate

00:37:01.160 what other countries and other people should do. It's not my responsibility to instill or install

00:37:07.660 democracy or a republic in some foreign country that just isn't interested in it. That's not my

00:37:12.520 responsibility. That's not our responsibility. Our responsibility is to take care of our own.

00:37:17.900 And that's not to say that we can't go out and do missionary work and proselyte and, uh, you know,

00:37:22.420 share concepts and ideas, which even our founders did as they traveled outside of the United States to

00:37:27.300 foreign countries to, uh, you know, spread the message, spread the word, share and learn,

00:37:32.220 but it's not our place to forcefully go somewhere and instill or install something that people aren't

00:37:38.660 interested in. I absolutely agree. Not only that, but coming from the mouth of a, of a former service

00:37:46.500 member of a vet, it becomes all the more powerful what you're saying. And, um, and I wish more people

00:37:54.680 would listen to you. Well, it's a hard thing to say, especially for a lot of veterans, because,

00:37:59.620 uh, veterans derive as, as they should, uh, derive a lot of their, their value from their service to

00:38:08.900 country. And, and I think it's noble work. I think it's honorable. I think there's sacrifices that need

00:38:13.620 to be made. And I think for the most part, the work that's being done is, is good. Uh, but also

00:38:20.120 there's some places we need not be involved and we need to learn to protect and take care of our own

00:38:25.880 before we start forcefully executing these types of things on other people.

00:38:31.160 Amen. Couldn't agree more. And I'm telling, I'm on, I'll tell you, I was a cheerleader for the Iraq war

00:38:36.380 at first. I believed, uh, I believed what came out of the national security establishment. And, um,

00:38:43.720 and I was all too willing to send guys like you into that meat grinder. And I have deep regrets about it,

00:38:50.940 honestly, but I still appreciate your service. And, um, and everybody who undertakes that they swear

00:38:59.900 and they swear a, uh, an oath to the, to uphold the constitution. The problem is the people,

00:39:06.340 the powers that deploy, um, guys like you were and are, are not there. They're, they're,

00:39:15.300 they're violating their oath to the constitution almost daily. Tell me a little bit about this,

00:39:22.140 uh, this, this contest that you have going on. So the constitution of consent, I'd like to know

00:39:27.160 a little bit more specifically about what that is and some of the parameters that you're looking for

00:39:31.560 and even who determines what is accurate and what is not, you know, what is, what is the best

00:39:36.940 constitution crafted? Who, who gets to decide that? Yeah. I mean, me, me and a couple of my buddies

00:39:43.220 get to decide because that's just some guys get together, like, like draft over fantasy football

00:39:48.980 or something, or there's some actual parameters here. Yeah. It's sort of like, I mean, I'm not

00:39:54.080 going to sit here and pat myself on the, on the shoulder. It's your money. You can do whatever

00:39:57.940 you want, right? You're the one. I got, I got, I got, I had, I was able to raise the money, um,

00:40:04.760 from a, from a donor, uh, from a couple of donors actually. Uh, so it's $25,000. You, the top prize

00:40:11.180 is 20,000 and then second and third are 3,000 and 2,000 respectively for second and third prizes.

00:40:18.520 Um, but yeah, um, the, the, the, the first, the first thing we want to do is get people to think

00:40:26.560 about the idea of what it means to be free, right? What it means to be free. Just to remind ourselves

00:40:33.820 of that. We don't live in a state of affairs anymore where we, we are anything, but the timid

00:40:40.740 herds being, being shunted around, poked and prodded by the powerful. Everybody has become

00:40:48.640 acutely aware of that. It doesn't matter what side of the, the fence you're on unless, and let, well,

00:40:53.200 a side of the political aisle you're on. Everybody is, is acutely aware of this. So, you know, this,

00:41:00.600 the idea behind this contest is first, I was like, let's get people to think about constitution

00:41:05.600 craft again. Let's get people to think about not only the original meaning of the constitution that

00:41:11.900 has been almost wholly abandoned, but about the, the, the ideas that animated the declaration at all.

00:41:19.180 So it is a way of being a pamphleteer like Tom Paine or like Thomas Jefferson to be a pamphleteer

00:41:27.360 again, to, to burn, to help people burn fires in the mind with these ideals, returning to our core

00:41:36.000 doctrine, if that makes sense. What does it really mean to be an American is what it means to be free.

00:41:44.240 How do we engage not in politics? Politics is like waking up in the morning, opening up your smartphone

00:41:51.780 and finding two apps, red app and blue app. And which am I going to get to use for the next four

00:41:59.400 years? That is not a social operating system worth having anymore. If that's what, if, if,

00:42:04.980 if democracy is the golden calf, I I'm not about it anymore. Right. Um, so it's getting people to,

00:42:13.900 to fully to confront the fact that that's kind of the, the state of affairs we're living in now,

00:42:20.060 which we're getting shunted into these occasional elections that are red versus blue, which is

00:42:25.560 politics. When we need to be able to think in meta politics terms, again, where meta politics is

00:42:31.680 understanding the dynamics that make our society, what it is with all its pathologies and all of the

00:42:39.120 accretions of power at the highest echelons. Why is that happening? If I can get people to think about

00:42:45.380 that by getting them to think about what a more perfect union would look like, or what a more

00:42:50.900 perfect society would look like, it has to originate in morality and good rules.

00:42:58.640 And that is the point of the contest is, and even if all I ever did was inspire someone to come up with

00:43:08.000 a single constitutional amendment that allowed us something of a reboot of the Republic,

00:43:13.020 I'd be over the moon. I'd turn backflips. So this is not a way, excuse my mouth to shit on the

00:43:21.100 constitution. It is a rather a way to honor it and get people around the world to think about the 0.95

00:43:27.140 question, how are we to live together? And what does it mean to be free? And by the way, yeah,

00:43:34.000 sorry, just really quickly, by the way, this is also not partisan because at the most local feasible

00:43:39.740 level, you might want to put together a kibbutz, a commune, a religious organization, whatever it

00:43:48.260 is. And as long as that's not contravening, you know, some enumerated like, right, like, you know,

00:43:55.720 religious freedom, if you want to self-organize into some religious community and pull your resources

00:44:01.420 and have a commune like a kibbutz or like the Mennonites do already in this country,

00:44:07.220 then why not do that? That's your conception of the good. It, it facilitates people self-organizing

00:44:13.680 into their conceptions of the good. And that can be on the left, it can be on the right,

00:44:17.260 and it can be everything in between. Well, I'm glad you're saying this because you used a couple of

00:44:21.780 phrases that, that I wanted to mention. You said for morality and good rules, you almost spoke as if

00:44:27.380 it's truth with a capital T. Now, I believe it is because of our previous conversation. It's derived

00:44:32.520 from an objective source that is, that is unshakable and flappable. A lot of people don't

00:44:38.140 believe that. So what I think is good, or what I think is a quote unquote, good role rule or morality,

00:44:44.100 not everybody's going to agree with. That's a subjective term for a lot of people.

00:44:48.860 That's right. And there's nothing I can do about that, but hope to persuade them

00:44:52.220 that there is a sense that we, what, what I'm trying to do is say, okay, at the end of the day,

00:44:58.760 you might be right. Maybe it isn't objective, but for, for, for, as of this guy's subjectivity

00:45:06.200 and Ryan's subjectivity, we can find inner subjective agreement about the fact, about the idea

00:45:12.440 that life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness are core ideals to our very existence.

00:45:21.400 And we are going to form a moral political community together. And you don't have a say

00:45:27.640 about that if you disagree with it. Right? So yes, we want to persuade as many people as possible

00:45:35.680 to adopt these ideas, these negative rights, if you will. But to the extent we can't, they can't,

00:45:41.380 they become people of another country, like the Iraqis that you encountered on a day-to-day basis 1.00

00:45:47.800 when you were over there who may not want this stuff. Right. But the framework that,

00:45:54.360 that we would establish is to say there are multiple, multiple peaceable kingdoms that live

00:46:02.300 together harmoniously. And if there are frictions between and among them, they go into the common law

00:46:08.440 courts. And that is a way of having to not, uh, be involved in the, in this culture wars and other

00:46:19.120 kinds of political warfare that we've read versus blue stuff that we've been living in for ages.

00:46:24.680 And all of us purple and yellow and other kinds of people, the way we think about things is,

00:46:29.840 hey, the system we have politics, as we know, it does not serve our evolution as people. What

00:46:39.280 would serve our evolution as people is to give us the right to self-organize in the communities of

00:46:44.900 practice with people we love and respect with rules that we want to adopt within a framework of

00:46:52.780 rights and freedoms where these groups can't go to war with each other. That that's it.

00:46:58.460 A lot of what you're talking about sounds like powerful thought experiments. Is, is there a place,

00:47:05.480 a pragmatic approach to underthrowing what we currently see, or is, is there a path rather than

00:47:12.360 just a thought experiment? Is there an actual path to redemption with our current system or

00:47:17.280 underthrowing our current system in order to replace it with something that might be more effective

00:47:22.360 which all kinds of ways subject to interpretation, but what, what, what is the path forward?

00:47:28.380 That is a, such a, such a great question. Thank you. Cause it allows me to talk about underthrow

00:47:33.540 again. Uh, right first. Um, yes, absolutely. There might be something as simple as, okay, we want to not,

00:47:41.640 we, we have, um, we have some national crisis, maybe it's an economic crisis. And this represents,

00:47:51.340 I hate, I hate, I hate to say this. This is, this sounds like, uh, the old mayor of Chicago who used

00:47:55.420 to work for Barack Obama, whose name is escapes me, but, um, he said, never let a crisis go to waste.

00:48:02.240 Right. And that's how you got some of the, um, some of the garbage that came out during the Obama 0.75

00:48:09.060 administration. Um, but the idea here, but there's a sense in which that is right. So if we had some sort

00:48:16.080 catastrophic collapse where the federal government no longer had the funds or the means to use debt

00:48:23.620 spending, to do what it does, um, we would then have the opportunity to become self-sovereigns again.

00:48:29.980 So here's, here's a, here's an example of underthrow that is just one narrow vector. Okay. Remember in

00:48:37.560 about 2012, um, you would have, uh, it would have been illegal to hitch a ride with somebody

00:48:46.420 and all of a sudden some subversive innovator is what I call him comes up with this idea. Okay.

00:48:53.280 What if we, what if we patch together GPS, um, some sort of identity that's associated with a credit

00:49:01.720 card and this and that, and paired drivers together with riders in a reputation system that looks like

00:49:11.960 you, something you would find on, um, Amazon say, then all of a sudden hitching a ride was not only

00:49:21.660 taboo, but S in some respects overturned taxi medallion cartels, right? Yeah. Taxi medallions 0.88

00:49:30.160 no longer held their, their government instituted cartels. Yeah. They went, they, they were completely,

00:49:36.620 that is a vector of underthrow called subversive innovation. So the thing that I try to do with

00:49:43.300 underthrow, my, my, um, substack, which you can find it underthrow.org. I'd love for your listeners

00:49:49.860 or to check it out is to think in these kinds of terms, what are the legal gray areas in which we

00:49:56.020 can operate to do one simple thing? Another is, well, this is not a simple thing, but another is

00:50:01.600 Bitcoin. Satoshi Nakamoto was probably three or four guys who were corresponding. And, um,

00:50:09.960 eventually they patched together a system that allowed a sovereign store of value, a digital

00:50:18.480 commodity that could compete with the dollar that is losing its value. Now there's this thing called

00:50:25.680 Gresham's law that makes it so that it's, you have incentives not to spend Bitcoin and to spend your

00:50:31.300 dollars. And that creates sort of economic distortions on net. But the, but the idea is

00:50:37.660 Bitcoin became a proof of concept where sovereign individuals could, could enter into a collective

00:50:45.080 arrangement around something they agreed to and agreed upon, which is a set of rules, the code of

00:50:51.760 Bitcoin to forge an alternative in a permissionless way to the fiat currency system. And they did it and

00:51:01.660 they're still doing it 14 years later. It's a, it's a 15 years later, I guess now. And it's, it's a,

00:51:08.180 it's an amazing advance that is under throw that is subversive innovation. It could be, um, a, um, a man

00:51:16.120 like Bob Luddy, uh, out of North Carolina who started a chain of, or a franchise of schools called

00:51:24.160 Thales Academy, where he offers school children, top quality education for $5,000 a year.

00:51:30.940 20% of his students have scholarships so they can afford to go there. Despite the fact that we have

00:51:36.840 a free system of public education that fails over and over again and doesn't change. They add more

00:51:45.100 money to the public education and hire more administrators and nothing ever changes. The

00:51:51.200 outcomes have been the same. Luddy says, go with God, do your thing. It's unfortunate that we have to do

00:51:58.540 this, but I'm going to create this thing over here and my kids are going to excel. And they do,

00:52:03.700 they have a tremendous rating for success because they brought an entrepreneurial lens to it. And it's

00:52:11.700 about, for me, it's not about politics, policy, and punditry anymore. That stuff doesn't work. It's

00:52:17.640 about creativity, entrepreneurship, and innovation. And that's what the kind of men and I, I,

00:52:24.780 and women too, but particularly your listeners are mostly men can hope to, to do for this country

00:52:31.840 is become subversive innovators. They use their creativity, entrepreneurship, and innovation

00:52:37.480 to make social change around and outside the political process. And this contest is just one

00:52:44.200 example of that as legal innovation. No, those are great. Those are some, some really great examples.

00:52:50.280 I'm glad you should. I, that, when you talked about it, did you say Gresham's law? Gresham's

00:52:54.420 law? Yeah. G-R-E-S-H-M-H-A-M apostrophe S. Gresham. Okay. Got it. I'm going to look into that

00:53:03.360 because I have been curious. I, I personally own, uh, uh, Bitcoin and I have been curious as to why

00:53:12.040 it hasn't taken off to the degree that I thought it would. That's to your point or this law, nobody spent,

00:53:17.320 I don't spend it. I leave it, I leave it there. I leave it alone. I spend my dollars,

00:53:21.180 you know? So that's kind of an interesting concept. Yeah. It's a, there's a, there's a term

00:53:27.480 that comes out of Gresham's law, which is bad money chases, chases bad money. What is it? Bad money

00:53:35.140 chases away good money or something like that. But essentially the idea is, um, you want to use the

00:53:41.080 crappier money first because it's losing its value. Whereas the, the, the, the state, the more

00:53:47.140 stable, it's not, it's, it there's volatility because of the interactions. But if you had a,

00:53:52.860 a basic Bitcoin standard, which we can argue about all the Bitcoin maxis, I'm a Bitcoin, mostly there

00:53:59.700 people called Bitcoin maxis maximalists, and they can argue about this stuff all day, um, all day long,

00:54:06.020 but there are dynamics in the interplay of the different types of money that create these sort

00:54:11.600 of strange distortions. But if, if everybody were to use sort of Bitcoin as its base money,

00:54:16.940 you wouldn't see so many of these type of phenomena. It'd still have deflationary effect,

00:54:21.840 but I, but you wouldn't have so much volatility. Yeah. It'd be a wider adoption. Yeah.

00:54:28.160 Uh, the gentleman you were talking about earlier is, uh, I'm not sure I'm using gentlemen very

00:54:33.720 liberally, but Rahm Emanuel is who you were suggesting earlier. So thank you. You were

00:54:38.160 talking about. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. You bet. Uh, well, Max, why don't you tell the guys where

00:54:43.660 to connect with you, where to learn more about what you're doing, obviously look into the contest,

00:54:47.660 uh, and how to get more information. Sure thing. Um, under throw.org is my publication.

00:54:56.380 Most everything there is free. Um, obviously I would love to have free subscribers.

00:55:01.980 It's sort of like the kind of stuff that rattles around in my, my mind and the minds of those

00:55:08.040 guys, you know, people I love and, and admire. I'll publish other people's work sometimes on

00:55:13.200 the site that's called under throw.org. You can also find the contest there right at the top in

00:55:18.900 the nav bar. It'll say contest, click on that. And it'll give you specifications for how that'll put

00:55:23.800 you in a better position to win the contest. I'd love to see that too. And finally, I would love,

00:55:30.120 honestly, Ryan, I'm kind of inspired by doing this podcast because of your focus on men and sort of

00:55:38.100 reconstituting the idea of what it means to be a good man. That is something I've been thinking

00:55:43.680 about doing with my kids. So, um, if, if any of your listeners want to reach out to me and say,

00:55:50.020 like, um, does it make sense to reconstitute something like the fraternal system where fraternity

00:55:57.060 is really a brotherhood of men. Um, I'm, I'm really interested in that at the center of that can

00:56:03.240 be our patriotic ideals as Americans, but also the cultivation of proud, courageous, and effective

00:56:12.280 men in the society who are getting crap from, for every, from every turn. I feel like.

00:56:17.800 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that fraternal, I mean, that's part of why we called this order of man,

00:56:23.140 order fraternity, you know, and it's, uh, so, so I'm with you on that. We got to talk more about

00:56:28.640 that maybe offline. Awesome. Max, we'll sync it all up. I appreciate you. I love, uh, new ideas,

00:56:34.920 new ways of looking at things, um, even controversial approaches. It's like, all right,

00:56:39.600 well, let's, let's, let's talk about it. Let's uncover it. Let's figure it out. Let's weigh the pros

00:56:43.320 and cons and hash through it and debate and do whatever we need. Cause I I'm with you. I'm sick

00:56:47.860 of the status quo and I don't think it's working. So I appreciate men like you who are willing to put

00:56:52.200 it out there and try something and, um, put it on the line a little bit. I'm sure you get a lot of

00:56:57.560 flack for what you're talking about. And I'm sure you're under the scrutiny of certain watch lists.

00:57:02.620 Um, we'll go ahead and leave that right there for now, but, uh, I do appreciate you, Max. Thanks for

00:57:07.100 joining me today, man. Thank you so much, Ryan. I just want to thank you not only for your service

00:57:11.920 from before, but your service. Now you're doing a good stuff. You're doing really good stuff. So

00:57:17.080 thank you, man. There you go. My conversation with Max borders. I hope you enjoyed that one.

00:57:23.800 Uh, interesting ideas. I'm not sure the, uh, how feasible these ideas are personally. This is my

00:57:30.740 thought, but I always like an interesting idea. Maybe it gets us to broaden and expand our thinking

00:57:35.420 and consider new ways of looking at life and our approach to society, politics, culture,

00:57:40.480 all the things that frankly, we should be looking into. If we're going to be men of value,

00:57:45.060 we have to be in the know on these things. So I would love to hear your thoughts, good,

00:57:49.640 bad, and different. Let me know what you're thinking about the conversation today. Uh,

00:57:53.120 and also if you're interested, pick up a copy of Max's new book under throw, how Jefferson's

00:57:57.820 dangerous ideas will spark a new revolution. And the last thing, uh, Marcus Segura and also

00:58:04.420 Jose Vela, uh, gave us testimonials for the iron council. And I read those to you guys. If you're on

00:58:10.120 the fence about joining our brotherhood, get off the fence, join us. Even if you just joined for

00:58:14.860 a month, I usually don't say that because we want guys who are committed, but sometimes just

00:58:19.080 testing it out, just seeing how it is for a month, you'll find that there's a lot of powerful tools

00:58:25.460 and resources in there to help you take your life to the next level. Check it out at order of man.com

00:58:29.960 slash iron council. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go

00:58:35.320 out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order

00:58:39.920 of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life to be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:58:45.020 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - September 19, 2023

MAX BORDERS ｜ Will a New Revolution Cure What Ails Us？

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