Order of Man - MICHAEL EASTER ｜ Seek and Embrace Discomfort

00:00:00.000 Guys, our innate pursuit of comfort is the enemy of achievement, and yet we failed collectively

00:00:04.440 to keep our biological hardwiring to seek the path of least resistance in check.

00:00:09.240 So why is that?

00:00:10.360 Why is it that we know we should seek discomfort yet find it so difficult to do?

00:00:15.100 That's the topic of my conversation today with Michael Easter, the author of The Comfort

00:00:19.380 Crisis.

00:00:20.340 Today, Michael and I discussed the damage of helicopter and quote-unquote snow plow parenting,

00:00:25.400 the psychological programming that keeps us from achievement, the concept of Misagi

00:00:31.700 and embracing annual challenges, how a healthy relationship with death keeps people fulfilled,

00:00:38.020 and ultimately what you can do to overcome the comfort crisis that permeates every fabric

00:00:43.780 of society.

00:00:44.800 You're a man of action.

00:00:46.100 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:50.200 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:54.500 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:59.880 This is your life.

00:01:00.960 This is who you are.

00:01:02.380 This is who you will become.

00:01:04.100 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:09.300 Gentlemen, what is going on today?

00:01:10.700 My name is Ryan Mickler.

00:01:12.020 I am the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement.

00:01:15.360 Welcome here and welcome back.

00:01:17.560 We are reclaiming and restoring masculinity in the society that continues to be dismissive

00:01:23.560 and undermining of it.

00:01:25.000 We do that via this podcast and the conversations I have with incredibly successful men, men

00:01:31.000 who have insights and thoughts and ideas on how we can better equip ourselves with the

00:01:35.920 tools that we need to thrive as husbands and fathers and leaders in our community and every

00:01:39.700 other area of life that we show up.

00:01:41.260 So we've got a good one for you.

00:01:42.680 As we have had over the past several weeks, we've got an incredible, incredible lineup,

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00:02:01.840 and restoring masculinity.

00:02:03.500 So that's all I have by way of an ask is that rating and review.

00:02:06.820 But I do also want to mention my friends and show sponsors that's origin main.

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00:03:10.900 All right, guys, let me introduce you to Michael Easter.

00:03:13.380 He's the author of his new book, the comfort crisis.

00:03:15.500 He's also a contributing editor for men's health magazine.

00:03:18.220 He's a columnist for, uh, outside magazine and his work has also appeared in men's journal

00:03:24.480 vice scientific American Esquire, lots of other, uh, publications as well.

00:03:29.140 I was introduced to Michael through my good friend, Donnie Vincent after Michael's experience

00:03:33.820 with Donnie, which he actually details in the book.

00:03:35.800 So you're going to enjoy that.

00:03:37.100 And I'm honored to have him join me considering his immense research and also his participation

00:03:42.040 in this, uh, looming comfort crisis.

00:03:47.180 Michael, what's up brother?

00:03:48.200 Glad to have you on the podcast, man.

00:03:49.500 Looking forward to the conversation.

00:03:51.260 Hey, it's great to be here.

00:03:52.320 I appreciate you having me on.

00:03:53.520 This should be fun.

00:03:54.680 I know we were going to do something last week, but, uh, I felt somewhat justified in

00:03:59.380 rescheduling because I was actually taking the message of your book to heart.

00:04:02.620 And I was suffering with my son at a 15 hour, uh, overnight physically, mentally, emotionally

00:04:09.560 demanding event.

00:04:10.440 So I didn't feel too bad about having to reschedule with you because I figured you'd appreciate

00:04:14.000 what we were going through.

00:04:15.260 Oh man, that excuse flies for me.

00:04:17.060 How did he do?

00:04:18.540 He did awesome, man.

00:04:19.740 The little, the kids are stud.

00:04:20.920 I say kid, he's a young man at this point anymore.

00:04:23.080 He's 13 years old, but yeah, we went down to Southern California and just did an overnight

00:04:27.640 event.

00:04:28.200 Like I said, it was 15 hours and we did hiking and ice baths.

00:04:31.800 And then at the end of it, I don't want to give anything away because I don't want to

00:04:34.880 ruin the surprise, but we had a little, uh, rite of passage and a little ritual and experience

00:04:38.500 we went through his father and son.

00:04:39.800 So it was awesome.

00:04:41.140 He did.

00:04:41.440 Very cool.

00:04:42.260 Love hearing that.

00:04:43.960 Yeah.

00:04:44.280 I think it's much needed.

00:04:45.260 I mean, gosh, we live in a society that is just so, so easy and so comfortable and,

00:04:51.220 you know, barring, I don't know, medical diagnosis or somebody, you know, cutting you off on

00:04:57.240 the road or getting your order at Starbucks wrong.

00:05:00.540 Life really isn't that hard, frankly.

00:05:03.000 So it is, uh, it is definitely not.

00:05:05.220 We've definitely crept into a lot of easiness in a lot of ways in our lives.

00:05:09.980 And we've removed a lot of challenge and, you know, the world is very comfortable.

00:05:14.340 And while this is obviously great in many ways, I think that we've tipped the balance

00:05:19.580 so far that we don't have these moments that steal us anymore and build our character and

00:05:26.620 make us more grateful for everything.

00:05:28.200 We have all these amazing things we do have.

00:05:30.680 Um, you know, you mentioned rite of passage with your son.

00:05:34.100 That's one thing that we don't really do anymore at a grand scale.

00:05:37.440 Right.

00:05:37.960 And there is a very good reason that cultures throughout time and space have, or as a young

00:05:44.700 man who is a point A in his life and he needs to get to point B, they don't just

00:05:49.340 hand over the keys to the kingdom and say, have fun.

00:05:51.660 Right.

00:05:52.140 They usually make that person go out and do something challenging in nature because along

00:05:56.220 the way they learn something about themselves.

00:05:59.100 They become more competent.

00:06:00.620 They become more confident.

00:06:01.720 And then they're sort of able to transition to this point B where they need to be, to be

00:06:05.940 able to sort of be a real contributor to the tribe.

00:06:10.660 Right.

00:06:10.900 You know, it's funny because, uh, as you're talking about them developing and building confidence

00:06:17.140 that our kids, that is, it's, it's interesting to me that we have so many children who are

00:06:24.840 confused about their role here in life and their purpose and their direction and even their

00:06:30.980 gender.

00:06:31.600 And then you have their parents who increasingly are just as confused as the children and they're

00:06:38.940 not giving our kids any guidance or direction.

00:06:42.660 In fact, in many ways, it seems like a lot of these parents are turning to their kids

00:06:47.720 for guidance and direction.

00:06:48.700 Like you tell me as a 10 year old kid, what, what you need and what life's about and how

00:06:54.560 you want to express yourself.

00:06:55.960 Because I think a lot of these parents have never experienced this for themselves.

00:06:59.960 No, I think you're right.

00:07:01.160 You're definitely onto something there.

00:07:02.640 Um, a step that I love that I mentioned in my book is that after 1990, this is when helicopter

00:07:09.660 parenting sets in.

00:07:10.980 So there's a variety of reasons for this, but the main reason is that there was some

00:07:15.820 high profile kidnappings in the media and basically parents freaked out and thought,

00:07:19.260 you know, the kidnapping rate wasn't actually rising, but it was getting a lot of attention.

00:07:22.840 So parents became a lot more protective of their kids.

00:07:25.820 They didn't let them go outside into nature.

00:07:29.200 You know, they didn't let them go hang out on the playground alone.

00:07:32.260 And in doing those sorts of things, you learn a lot about yourself, right?

00:07:37.860 You get in conflicts with other kids, you do some stuff that's like, you know, a little

00:07:42.900 bit sketchy and challenging.

00:07:44.760 You get beat up sometimes, whether it's by another kid or by, you know, the wild going

00:07:49.500 out in the woods too long and you grow from that.

00:07:53.080 And it sort of expands your, I guess I'll say, you know, emotional, psychological fortitude.

00:07:59.260 Then after 1990, we stopped letting kids do that at a mass scale.

00:08:03.540 And, um, now you look at the data on kids who were born after that date, they have a

00:08:08.380 lot more psychological problems.

00:08:10.280 So like anxiety, depression really starts to climb in those generations.

00:08:15.820 Getting even worse today, the things like, uh, snowplow parenting, which is like notched

00:08:23.680 up of helicopter parenting, you know, I've never heard that term before.

00:08:26.860 Yeah.

00:08:27.340 It's a, so the, the idea is that parents are like snowplows that just plow any and all

00:08:31.500 challenge out of their kids' way moving to Maine.

00:08:35.540 I can appreciate the concept of a plow.

00:08:37.500 So, but, uh, yeah, that's an interesting concept is, is not only sheltering our kids

00:08:43.720 from hardship, but actually facing the full brunt of it ourselves instead of letting them

00:08:48.540 experience it.

00:08:49.640 Yes, exactly.

00:08:50.800 And I think you were onto something that parents are, they don't really know.

00:08:55.660 I mean, I don't have kids, so I can't speak really to that deep experience, but I do feel

00:08:59.780 like when I observe parents today, they just kind of ask the kid, yeah, what do you want?

00:09:04.100 What do you want to do?

00:09:04.620 And then you just deliver, you know?

00:09:06.080 Right.

00:09:06.900 It's like, yeah, you know, it's funny.

00:09:08.500 Here's a very, here's a very micro example.

00:09:10.960 I have people in my life who I've heard them talk with their children or their spouse and

00:09:15.280 significant other, uh, about completely rearranging their schedule because they're, you know,

00:09:20.400 two-year-old needs a nap.

00:09:21.420 And that's a micro example, but I'm thinking to myself, you know, kids are resilient, a

00:09:26.900 two-year-old, should they get a nap?

00:09:28.440 Sure.

00:09:28.900 Can they wait two hours?

00:09:30.100 Of course.

00:09:31.220 But, but parents, entire universe revolves around every waking.

00:09:37.280 And in this case, sleeping moment of their child.

00:09:39.260 And I just think to myself, not only is it hurting the child as, especially as they get

00:09:42.660 older, but I mean, what's that got to do for your own individual health?

00:09:47.200 If your whole life is revolving around this, this other human who is just as resilient,

00:09:52.380 if not more so than maybe you are.

00:09:54.700 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:55.360 I mean, I laugh because to your point about kids being resilient, we literally evolved

00:10:02.480 in rough and tumble environments in nature for two and a half million years.

00:10:07.020 I mean, kids got dirty in the sense that their playground was just the dirt and we didn't

00:10:11.800 have Purell, but bathe them in every 15 seconds.

00:10:14.440 And now it's like, oh, can't go outside.

00:10:16.620 Can't touch this.

00:10:17.440 Can't, oh, we got to do, we got to really be careful here.

00:10:19.580 You know, it's like, but let me ask you, Michael, on that real quick though, because

00:10:22.940 so I've heard this argument before, which is, you know, Nat, what you're saying right

00:10:27.100 now is, is we have Purell and we, you can't do this and you can't do that, but let's just

00:10:31.360 take it, zoom back for a second.

00:10:33.180 You know, we're healthier generally.

00:10:35.240 I think maybe you would contend with that.

00:10:37.260 We can talk about that, but we certainly live longer than we did in the past.

00:10:40.600 And so is it simply a matter of going back into the dark ages?

00:10:45.900 Well, that, I don't think that's the answer because we led, we, we led significantly inferior

00:10:50.980 lives to, to what we live now.

00:10:52.840 So there's gotta be a point where, yes, it makes sense to take all of this modernity and

00:10:59.040 technology and creature comforts and apply them in our lives and not have to go back to

00:11:04.780 the dark ages.

00:11:05.640 If that makes sense.

00:11:06.240 Yeah, you hit the nail on the head too.

00:11:08.740 So I would argue that we are now healthier in some ways, but not others.

00:11:13.060 So for example, um, we don't get communicable diseases and, but we do suffer from chronic

00:11:21.320 diseases that were literally non-existent until like the last hundred years.

00:11:24.740 So the top killers obesity, right?

00:11:27.000 Yeah.

00:11:27.320 So things like heart disease, uh, certain cancers, um, chronic lung diseases.

00:11:33.760 These are all things that weren't really around until we made our world a lot more comfortable.

00:11:39.460 So like, yes, we're living longer.

00:11:41.180 The things that have really helped us live longer though, are not all these new crazy

00:11:45.080 medical technologies.

00:11:46.000 Those have helped, but people really started living longer after we started washing our

00:11:51.720 hands relatively regularly.

00:11:53.760 After we got clean water treatment, after we started treating sewage.

00:11:58.140 I mean, these are all very basic public health things.

00:12:01.020 So I think that what has happened is that we've tipped the balance a little too far, right?

00:12:07.340 There's this sweet spot.

00:12:08.680 So if you think of it like a U shaped curve where, you know, really, really rough tumble,

00:12:15.360 um, those maybe aren't good for us.

00:12:18.320 We don't maybe live as long, but then when we get to the other side, if we are really sanitary

00:12:24.120 and really safe and really whatever that hurts, seems to hurt our physical and mental health.

00:12:28.240 It's like, yes, we live longer now, but are we really quote unquote living, you know, in

00:12:32.780 a lot of ways, um, I think there's a sweet spot where it would be going too far.

00:12:37.600 What would you suggest is, Hey, that's unnecessary.

00:12:41.460 Well, I think, um, off the top of my head, how we over medicalize everything nowadays.

00:12:46.920 So you look at, um, our medical spending and how, you know, if anyone has ailment, we tend

00:12:52.120 to treat it whether or not that treatment is actually going to be beneficial and help

00:12:59.200 us live longer.

00:12:59.900 So most, I think it's like a quarter of all medical spending goes to people who are essentially,

00:13:05.980 we know they're on their last month or two of life, but we just kind of want to keep them

00:13:11.240 alive for what reasons we're not quite sure.

00:13:14.580 Just cause that seems like a good idea, you know?

00:13:17.200 So I think it's really, I'll tell you what I think it is.

00:13:19.160 Yeah.

00:13:19.520 I'll tell you what I think it is.

00:13:20.800 It's it, it, it has less to do with the individual we're trying to keep alive and more to do with

00:13:25.440 our own feelings and how we'll deal with that person's death.

00:13:27.880 Yeah.

00:13:28.320 I think that totally plays in as well for sure.

00:13:31.760 Um, and it's interesting.

00:13:33.500 I talk about, um, I have a section in my book where I talk about death and how we view

00:13:39.720 it in the U S and to your point, it's think people want to have to think about that and

00:13:46.900 take into their life that one day they're, you know, this ride is going to end.

00:13:51.380 That's, that's just the truth.

00:13:52.720 You know, in the U S think about our funeral system after someone dies, it's like, we make

00:13:57.680 them look as alive as possible for one last viewing.

00:14:00.540 And then we put them in the ground and then we're told to, you know, take your mind off it.

00:14:03.520 Don't think about it, you know, stay busy.

00:14:05.840 Yeah.

00:14:05.980 But the, but the viewing thing, I don't think is a new phenomenon.

00:14:08.720 I mean, weren't the Egyptians basically preserving themselves for, you know, the afterlife and,

00:14:13.300 and, and the perfect way they would look in the afterlife.

00:14:16.500 Yeah.

00:14:16.900 I think that there are some cases of that for sure.

00:14:19.620 Um, but I think that the, the brevity of our funerals is, is slightly new.

00:14:23.660 So you look at a lot of cultures and funerals were sort of long and drawn out and they weren't

00:14:28.260 as, um, industrialized.

00:14:30.320 So when people would die, it was typically an event that would happen at home and was handled by the

00:14:34.680 family.

00:14:35.840 And then what happened is, um, actually Abraham Lincoln wasn't embalmed after he died.

00:14:41.120 And it became really popular after that.

00:14:43.060 And then the medical system rose at about the same time.

00:14:45.700 So it's sort of like death got taken off our hands.

00:14:49.000 And, um, I wanted to sort of learn in the book, like how do different cultures view death?

00:14:56.560 So I traveled to Bhutan, which is, uh, this country right next to Nepal and India.

00:15:01.320 And it's a really interesting place because it is one of the least developed countries

00:15:07.480 on earth.

00:15:08.500 Um, it's measured by GDP as, I mean, they don't have, there's not a stoplight in the country.

00:15:13.420 They'll kind of give you a sense there, you know?

00:15:16.020 Sure.

00:15:16.300 Yeah.

00:15:16.540 And the entire country.

00:15:17.640 I mean, I grew up in a town without a stoplight, but you're talking about the entire country

00:15:21.420 now.

00:15:21.740 Um, talking about the entire country, the entire country.

00:15:25.680 Um, you know, there's no outside businesses.

00:15:28.160 There's not like Wendy's or Starbucks or McDonald's or any of that.

00:15:31.540 Um, but what's interesting is they're also, they consistently rank in the top 20 happiest

00:15:37.180 countries on earth.

00:15:37.980 And there's a variety of reasons for that.

00:15:41.560 Well, hold on.

00:15:42.440 I got to stop you because before you get to that, how do you measure happiness?

00:15:45.720 Cause there's a lot of different ways to measure that.

00:15:47.740 Yeah.

00:15:48.000 They do extensive surveys across different countries.

00:15:51.480 Like basically you just ask people like, how do you rate yourself on all these categories?

00:15:54.940 And then they come up with a metric of that.

00:15:56.980 So it's subjective.

00:15:58.140 They feel like they're happiest compared to somebody in the States, for example.

00:16:02.380 Yeah.

00:16:02.480 They just ask like, are you happy?

00:16:04.200 Are you satisfied with your life?

00:16:05.340 Right.

00:16:05.920 Did you say yes?

00:16:06.840 No, maybe.

00:16:07.380 I don't know.

00:16:08.760 Right.

00:16:09.900 So they always, they consistently rank really high in happiness rankings.

00:16:13.400 Here's in the top 20.

00:16:15.100 And part of the reason for this, they think there's a, there's a lot of stuff going on,

00:16:20.420 but is that they are a lot more aware of their own mortality.

00:16:25.200 So in Bhutan, people are told to think about their death every day, anywhere from one to three

00:16:30.300 times.

00:16:31.160 There's these reminders that you're going to die across the country.

00:16:36.380 So things like their cultural art and things like dances center around death.

00:16:41.680 There's all these little clay pyramids that are mixed with clay and ashes of the dead that

00:16:45.740 are like everywhere.

00:16:47.220 Really?

00:16:47.660 Right.

00:16:48.080 Yeah.

00:16:48.460 Like, and when I say everywhere, I mean, they're in every windowsill, like they are along roadsides.

00:16:53.740 They're just everywhere.

00:16:54.700 So it's this constant reminder.

00:16:57.040 And, you know, when I was there, I traveled, I met with a lot of different people sort of

00:17:02.540 thinking about this, but I met with this guy who's a really high up in the Buddhist faith.

00:17:06.260 And he lives like basically in a shack next to this monastery and me and this, my driver,

00:17:12.240 you have to hire a driver there.

00:17:15.180 We drive up this like dirt cliff road and it's this crazy drive.

00:17:18.540 And I get there and this guy lives in like a shack with, you know, really not much in

00:17:22.940 it.

00:17:23.300 And I get in there and he's a, you know, he's a Buddhist monk.

00:17:26.780 It's like this scene out of like, you would just picture the most cliche scene you can

00:17:31.580 think of, like a Western writer going to meet this guy, you know?

00:17:35.880 Yeah.

00:17:36.440 And, um, you know, I talked to him for a long time and he told me that in the U S we sort

00:17:43.060 of, a lot of people, not everyone, of course, but we tend to think that items and titles

00:17:50.860 and things like that, and kind of doing the next thing on the list is what is going to make

00:17:55.060 us happy.

00:17:55.640 And we kind of, you know, it's like, oh, once I do this, I'll be happy.

00:18:00.100 Once I buy this, I'll be happy.

00:18:02.300 Um, and when we get those things, we just add more to the list.

00:18:05.480 So we're in this constant chase.

00:18:06.980 And he says, you know, you, you know, picture, picture that there's a cliff in 500 feet and

00:18:14.080 we're all walking towards it right now.

00:18:15.640 And that cliff is death.

00:18:17.140 Now you can ignore that, or you can be aware of that.

00:18:20.620 And by being aware of that, it changes your behavior because all of a sudden you can be

00:18:24.440 like, well, I'm going to pay attention to the beauty around the cliff.

00:18:27.300 I'm going to have different conversations with the people I live with.

00:18:29.500 So by sort of being aware of, you know, your death, it changes people's behavior for the

00:18:36.080 better.

00:18:36.860 And what's really interesting is there is studies in the U S that have backed this up

00:18:41.840 where they will, you know, have people think about death and another group think about

00:18:45.080 something else.

00:18:45.560 And the people who think about their death report being happier, which is like super counterintuitive.

00:18:50.040 Right.

00:18:50.600 Right.

00:18:51.080 Sure.

00:18:51.340 Of course.

00:18:51.860 Yeah.

00:18:52.040 Cause nobody wants to think about their own demise.

00:18:54.900 No, no.

00:18:56.560 Um, so that's, I think one way, you know, in the book, uh, the comfort crisis, I talk about

00:19:02.020 how essentially the repercussions of, um, the fact that our world has gotten a lot more comfortable,

00:19:10.120 especially over the last hundred years.

00:19:11.780 And what specific forms of discomfort have we really removed and what has that done to

00:19:17.160 us?

00:19:17.600 And I think this, um, intimacy with death is, is one of them.

00:19:21.940 Yeah, that's interesting.

00:19:22.900 Well, so one of the things that, that I wanted to talk with you about it is the subtitle and

00:19:27.400 I've got the book right here, but the subtitle is embrace discomfort to reclaim your wild,

00:19:31.380 happy, healthy self.

00:19:32.940 There's one word in particular that stood out to me.

00:19:35.220 And frankly, when I hear it, I cringe a little bit.

00:19:37.320 And that word is happy because when I hear the word happy, what I interpret or what I see

00:19:43.380 a lot of people doing is clamoring for this sort of, you know, bliss where everything's

00:19:49.920 utopian and, and perfect.

00:19:52.180 And there's no challenge and hardship.

00:19:54.180 And I typically replace the word happy with fulfilled, which to me means that there's still

00:20:01.860 challenge involved, but it's meaningful challenge.

00:20:04.620 It's something significant.

00:20:05.780 It calls to you.

00:20:06.860 You still struggle, but you're capable of dealing with that struggle because of your

00:20:12.220 strength.

00:20:13.120 Yeah.

00:20:13.960 So what, so tell me about your interpretation of the word happy and why you decided to use

00:20:17.960 that word.

00:20:18.420 And you've said it actually a couple of times in this conversation.

00:20:21.440 Well, I think one of the things is it's relatively straightforward for people who are, you know,

00:20:26.540 it's when we think about a subtitle, it's like, okay, I sort of get that.

00:20:30.820 Right.

00:20:31.000 But I think you're absolutely right because the overall, the overall argument of the book is

00:20:35.900 that like humans don't do well when we're not challenged, when we're always comfortable,

00:20:41.360 when we're always following this drive that we have to be comfortable, to be comfortable

00:20:45.740 and to do the next easiest thing.

00:20:47.780 And to just avoid risk at all costs, because, you know, and as we evolved, we used to have

00:20:53.980 to do challenging things all the time.

00:20:55.660 We used to have to face down the risks.

00:20:57.620 And each time we did that, we would learn something about ourselves and grow, would

00:21:02.400 add to that fulfillment.

00:21:03.640 Right.

00:21:04.660 But now we've essentially removed a lot of challenges from our life, made a lot of things

00:21:10.560 easy.

00:21:11.640 And I think you see the repercussions of that in our skyrocketing, rocketing mental health

00:21:18.220 problems across the country.

00:21:19.300 I mean, the, the, the highest they've ever been, uh, in all the time.

00:21:23.580 So it's interesting because, you know, I explained, we evolved in these environments that were really

00:21:29.960 uncomfortable and really challenging.

00:21:32.300 Right.

00:21:33.000 But now that this sort of balance is tipped, we don't get these moments that, that steal

00:21:40.800 us, that make us, um, hardier and healthier.

00:21:43.700 And we have this drive to be, because we evolved in these environments of discomfort, like we

00:21:47.960 have a drive to always want to become, come to keep us alive all the time, but now it essentially

00:21:54.800 backfires.

00:21:56.120 Yeah.

00:21:56.600 I mean, I'm thinking about this and I, I think about, you know, 10,000 years ago or, or whatever,

00:22:01.260 somebody will correct me.

00:22:01.980 I'm sure never at a loss for people correcting me here, but, but there, there was, there was

00:22:07.320 a creature at some point, whether it was us or, or our, you know, prehistoric selves that

00:22:12.700 created, uh, the wheel or harnessed fire to keep us warm and cook our food.

00:22:19.420 Like this isn't a new phenomenon.

00:22:21.720 So what is the balance between seeking comfort, seeking growth and prosperity, but also struggling

00:22:32.120 in the challenge?

00:22:33.200 Because now it has to be voluntary.

00:22:34.800 It wasn't voluntary 10,000 years ago.

00:22:37.420 Yeah, it is now.

00:22:38.360 So what is the balance between innovation and technology and growth, which I would say

00:22:43.460 is good.

00:22:44.280 And also remembering that probably what we ought to struggle each and every day.

00:22:48.200 So we can continue to, like you said, steal ourselves.

00:22:51.000 Yeah.

00:22:51.420 Yeah.

00:22:51.740 You're exactly right.

00:22:53.540 Um, I think the balance, I tend to think about it as meeting people where they're at.

00:22:59.320 So it's, you know, I'm with you, like all this amazing tech and advancements we have, they're

00:23:05.900 so great, but we are programmed to always do the easy thing.

00:23:09.820 And by doing that, it starts to hurt us.

00:23:13.160 And I don't think the, I mean, it depends really how far down the spectrum a person is,

00:23:18.540 you know, for example, if we think of something like exercise or physical activity, you know,

00:23:24.280 we know we can't give the same type of training to every one person, um, meeting people where

00:23:30.100 they're at.

00:23:30.620 So for example, in the book, I talk about this concept called Masogi, and it's essentially

00:23:36.600 a recreation of rites of passage that we can do every single year.

00:23:42.440 So I learned about this from a dude whose name is Marcus Elliott, and he's a Harvard trained

00:23:47.900 MD.

00:23:48.580 He decides he doesn't want to be a doctor.

00:23:50.320 He's going to go into sports science and revolutionize the field.

00:23:53.320 He's got all these big ideas and, you know, it might sound arrogant, but turns out he

00:23:58.560 does it like he's like the leader in the field now.

00:24:02.200 And he's, uh, really changed how, um, how we measure performance and he's got a lot of

00:24:08.280 numbers and data and he uses AI and all this stuff.

00:24:11.520 Uh, but he also realizes that, you know, what really improves a human's performance and their

00:24:16.300 potential, it can't always be measured.

00:24:17.840 They're like immeasurables, right?

00:24:20.160 So you think about in, you know, really clutch games.

00:24:22.780 It's like, there might be a certain person that where you just go, yeah, just give that

00:24:25.880 person the ball.

00:24:26.780 Like they just have the ball, give them the ball.

00:24:28.420 Yep.

00:24:28.600 Yeah.

00:24:28.920 They just have that gear that you can't figure out what it is, but they have it.

00:24:33.420 And so to get to some of those, um, this idea of Masogi is that once a year, you're

00:24:39.020 going to go out and you're going to do one really hard thing.

00:24:41.340 Um, so the rules are make it really hard, which he defines by saying you should have

00:24:46.460 a true 50, 50 shot of finishing.

00:24:49.160 And then rule number two is don't die, which that one is very straightforward.

00:24:54.100 Yes.

00:24:54.640 I like that rule.

00:24:55.900 Yeah.

00:24:56.260 So the idea is that, you know, as I sort of alluded to before is that in our past,

00:25:01.920 we used to have to do challenging stuff all the time in nature.

00:25:04.660 This was without safety nets.

00:25:06.680 Um, we didn't get a train before all this stuff, this stuff just came at us and we would

00:25:11.120 learn something about ourself when we did that.

00:25:12.820 So we're trying to recreate that with something that has a high degree of failure because in

00:25:17.620 modern life, we don't really have to fail anymore.

00:25:21.100 To your point about like, you can just kind of go through life without being really challenged

00:25:25.160 and putting yourself in a position of failure.

00:25:27.580 But by doing that, having to really struggle through something and trying your best and

00:25:33.100 maybe even failing, you're still going to get beyond what you ever thought you were

00:25:36.860 capable of.

00:25:37.800 So you can kind of look back and, man, I thought my limit was back there, but here I am.

00:25:42.780 I'm still putting one foot in front of the other, or, you know, what, if it's like a

00:25:46.300 swimming misog, I've gone farther than I've ever gone before.

00:25:48.500 And you can sort of have this question in your mind that, that arises.

00:25:52.340 It's like, man, if I sold myself short in this thing, you know, what else am I selling

00:25:56.740 myself short in?

00:25:57.860 So it's like, and the idea that it has to be really hard with a 50, 50 shot to bring

00:26:03.140 it back to what I said about individualizing.

00:26:06.080 Well, that that's an open ball game, right?

00:26:09.880 It's like anyone can play.

00:26:11.240 It just depends on where you're at.

00:26:12.340 So let's say, you know, let's say that you're a really great runner, Ryan, and you've

00:26:17.640 run, you know, you've done a bunch of marathons.

00:26:19.860 You're choosing the wrong guy here on this one.

00:26:21.800 This is, this is a bad example for me, but, but continue in the spirit of what you're talking

00:26:26.440 about.

00:26:27.520 All right, we'll, we'll go with this.

00:26:28.900 You're a really terrible runner, Ryan.

00:26:30.420 And you've, the farthest you've ever run is a three miles.

00:26:33.180 And you're like, man, could I finish six miles?

00:26:37.980 Probably it's going to be the worst thing ever, but I think I could.

00:26:40.480 And then what about nine?

00:26:42.220 And you're like, I don't, I honestly do not know if I could cover nine miles by foot at

00:26:47.980 a relatively expedient pace here.

00:26:50.340 Sure.

00:26:50.620 Sure.

00:26:51.360 That moment of doubt.

00:26:52.160 It's like, well, go find out, man.

00:26:53.980 You know, you're going to learn something about yourself.

00:26:56.180 I guarantee it.

00:26:57.380 Have you ever read a John Eldridge's book wild at heart?

00:27:01.020 I haven't.

00:27:01.860 No.

00:27:02.600 Oh, you should definitely read it.

00:27:03.760 It, it, I hesitate to say this because it just sounds so, you know, it, it sounds like

00:27:09.440 it's not real, but it literally transformed my life.

00:27:12.220 But one of the premises in the book is he talks about that men are striving to answer

00:27:18.640 the question, do I have what it takes?

00:27:21.360 And that's what you're talking about now is that we all, as men, I think have these ideas

00:27:25.860 like, you know, I would really like to join the military, or I would like to start that

00:27:29.960 business, or I'd like to run a marathon, or I'd like to pick up jujitsu.

00:27:33.180 Because we're trying to answer that question, but then the modern man who we've all become

00:27:39.780 and to some degree says, you don't have to do that.

00:27:43.980 Oh, it's hard.

00:27:45.580 Oh, you have responsibilities.

00:27:47.240 Oh, you have obligations and you don't have to prove yourself to anybody.

00:27:51.380 And so we shut that natural desire inclination off to prove it to ourselves that we do indeed

00:27:56.580 have what it takes, or at least we can make ourselves capable of getting to that point.

00:28:01.620 Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, based on what I've seen, and I looked at a lot of research in

00:28:07.460 psychology, and that's totally true.

00:28:11.040 You look at data on people who had sweet spot in terms of challenges, basically, you look

00:28:16.980 at people who have had a ton of challenges in their life, just really challenging life.

00:28:21.220 They don't have great rates of mental health.

00:28:22.780 But at the same time, you look at people who have had very few challenges, they have equally

00:28:29.000 poor rates of mental health.

00:28:30.320 There's like this sweet spot where we need to challenge ourselves.

00:28:35.140 At the same time, like I said before, it's like we have this drive to avoid risk.

00:28:39.280 It's like for millions of years, it was like, why would you do anything like that that was

00:28:42.740 risky?

00:28:43.580 Why would you move if you didn't have to?

00:28:45.720 Why would you not just-

00:28:46.300 Reward wasn't there.

00:28:48.040 Exactly.

00:28:48.860 Exactly.

00:28:49.460 It wasn't.

00:28:50.460 So, why would you do that today?

00:28:52.300 Because you've got all this wiring telling you not to.

00:28:55.540 So, you're really pushing back against what you sort of these internal drives you have,

00:29:01.880 right?

00:29:02.660 Right.

00:29:03.400 But there's reward on the other side of that.

00:29:06.520 Man, let me hit the pause button on the conversation very briefly.

00:29:11.300 Accountability is a word that gets tossed around quite frequently and fairly loosely.

00:29:15.720 And I wanted to talk with you about it today.

00:29:17.680 So, what is it?

00:29:18.680 What is accountability?

00:29:19.700 Well, in its simplest form, it's a system of processes, of checks and balances to ensure

00:29:28.560 that you stay on the path and accomplish what you set out to accomplish.

00:29:32.580 Of course, it takes many forms, but one of the most effective methods of accountability

00:29:35.840 is to band with other high achieving like-minded men.

00:29:39.880 And not only is that what you're going to find in our exclusive Brotherhood, the Iron Council,

00:29:44.100 but it's also what we're going to be discussing as the topic of the month for August.

00:29:47.980 So, we're going to be unpacking what accountability is, what specific resources and tools that

00:29:53.280 you can actually use for added accountability in your life, and then also teach you the highest

00:29:59.340 form of accountability, which is accountability to yourself.

00:30:02.740 So, if you have big ambitions, a desire to achieve more, and want partners to ensure that you

00:30:08.780 do just that, then join us in the Iron Council.

00:30:12.740 You can do that at orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:30:15.980 Again, that's orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:30:19.960 All right, guys.

00:30:20.800 For now, let's get back to it, Michael.

00:30:23.560 We had Dr. Rob Wolf on the podcast not too long ago.

00:30:27.220 Are you familiar with his work?

00:30:28.400 Yeah, yeah.

00:30:28.920 Yeah, so he talked about the reason that we get fat is because we've been hardwired and

00:30:36.140 conditioned through our evolution to consume as many calories as possible and expend zero

00:30:43.280 calories if possible.

00:30:46.060 And so, you're right.

00:30:47.880 A thousand years ago, you're not going to hike down that hill if there isn't a reward like

00:30:53.200 an elk at the bottom of the hill that you can kill and then harvest.

00:30:55.980 But now, you can hike up and down the bottom of the hill and to the top as many times as

00:31:01.560 you want.

00:31:01.900 There's always a Burger King at the bottom or top where you can go ahead and replenish

00:31:05.200 those calories that you just lost.

00:31:07.600 Yeah.

00:31:08.400 Well, I mean, even just think of the concept of exercise.

00:31:11.060 That is something that we made up like 100, 150 years ago when we realized like, okay, now

00:31:18.280 we have all these jobs where we don't have to move.

00:31:20.540 There's this weird thing happening to people where they're having heart attacks.

00:31:24.240 We've never seen this before.

00:31:25.780 What the hell's going on?

00:31:27.660 Then they start to realize, oh, wait a minute.

00:31:29.860 The people whose jobs still have them move, they don't seem to get heart attacks.

00:31:34.640 So, let's do this thing called exercise.

00:31:36.940 So, we're going to have everyone just like move on purpose.

00:31:39.600 This is an insane idea, but we're going to do it.

00:31:42.280 I mean, that's what exercise is, you know?

00:31:45.300 What's funny is, and I've told some of the guys this story, is that when we moved to Maine,

00:31:49.700 which was two years ago, we set up a gym just in our garage, our outside garage.

00:31:55.500 So, it's detached from the house.

00:31:57.020 And we have tires and kettlebells and, you know, sledgehammers, things like that, that

00:32:02.720 most people listening to this podcast are like, yeah, I get it.

00:32:04.920 Okay.

00:32:05.680 So, I went down to the convenience store one day.

00:32:07.900 This was probably two or three months after we'd moved here.

00:32:10.020 And the gal at the convenience store who happens to be our neighbor said, do you know what people

00:32:13.920 are calling you?

00:32:14.580 And I said, uh-oh, like, no, I have no idea what they're calling us.

00:32:19.200 Well, apparently, my wife and I have been dubbed the quote-unquote weird workout people.

00:32:25.040 And there's definitely worse, you know, insults than that and nicknames in that.

00:32:30.200 But I thought, you know, that's interesting.

00:32:31.880 Why do people call us the weird workout people?

00:32:34.620 Well, obviously, you know, we're flipping tires, hitting the sledgehammer, we're carrying

00:32:38.180 kettlebells around.

00:32:39.040 And I'm thinking to myself, you know, in Maine, it's these strong, resilient, hardy,

00:32:45.900 hardworking people.

00:32:47.940 Why in the world would I be hitting the tire with a sledgehammer when they're tonight planning

00:32:52.660 on, you know, chopping four cords of wood?

00:32:56.280 And I think that's a prime example of what you're talking about.

00:32:58.640 It was very practical then.

00:33:00.340 And it's not so practical now.

00:33:02.280 We need to manufacture it because it doesn't exist just by default anymore.

00:33:06.560 In our lives.

00:33:07.060 Yes, yes, yes, you are exactly right.

00:33:09.120 And I think this is somewhat related, but I also feel like when you do exercise at a level

00:33:18.680 that would have been relatively normal in our past, a thousand years ago, 10 years ago,

00:33:24.220 you tell people that and they lose their minds.

00:33:27.000 They're like, you ran how far?

00:33:29.960 Right.

00:33:30.620 Oh, yeah, I ran like, you know, 12 miles, 13 miles, 14 miles.

00:33:34.180 Oh, my God.

00:33:36.280 How is that possible?

00:33:37.540 Right.

00:33:37.820 It's like you look at how we evolved, like the reason that a human body is built the way

00:33:42.840 it is, is because we evolved to be persistence hunters.

00:33:45.540 We would chase down game over miles and miles and miles until the animal essentially toppled

00:33:50.980 over from exhaustion.

00:33:51.940 And then we would spear it.

00:33:53.760 Right.

00:33:54.160 We would have dinner.

00:33:54.980 Right.

00:33:55.280 And so it's like the idea that I'm going to run 10, 15, 20 miles.

00:33:59.520 That was a relatively regular occurrence as we evolved.

00:34:03.480 I mean, we're not, we were not gay, but we were doing it very regularly.

00:34:07.600 This persistence hunting is very interesting.

00:34:09.640 I I've heard about it in the past and I was talking with somebody, I can't remember who

00:34:12.740 it was about what our ancestors would do.

00:34:16.320 Just what you're talking about.

00:34:17.500 They would just wear these animals down because the way that I understand it is that most animals

00:34:22.620 in the animal kingdom, especially those prey type animals are very good at quick sprints.

00:34:27.580 Right.

00:34:28.260 Yeah.

00:34:28.480 And so they could sprint, they could get away very quickly and then they were safe.

00:34:31.560 And we have evolved to sustain action and exercise over long periods of time for exactly

00:34:39.140 the reason that you said, I think you also talk about, uh, how we've been built to, to

00:34:45.600 ruck, right.

00:34:46.340 To carry weight, distribute that weight, and then to go on these long treks.

00:34:50.660 And that's something that you actually have to pay to do now, which is an interesting thing.

00:34:57.140 I remember one of the first Spartan races that I went on.

00:34:59.920 My father-in-law was like, wait, you're paying to go run and do these obstacles.

00:35:05.220 That sounds stupid.

00:35:06.460 And it does sound stupid when you say it like that, but it is something that we definitely

00:35:10.220 need.

00:35:11.200 Yeah, it is.

00:35:12.160 It's like, well, might seem stupid now, but you know, in whatever, 50 years, when my heart's

00:35:17.420 a little healthier than everyone else's around me, I'll be, you know, I'll be thankful.

00:35:20.760 I did it.

00:35:21.320 Um, for sure.

00:35:22.420 But yes, to your point about persistence hunting.

00:35:24.600 So animals on four legs are really inefficient at cooling themselves.

00:35:28.540 So they're, they're, they're really fast, um, but they'll sprint and then we'll start

00:35:33.720 to overheat in the heat.

00:35:35.280 Um, cause we evolved in generally hot environments.

00:35:38.180 Humans on the other hands were, were really slow.

00:35:40.680 We're not good sprinters.

00:35:41.780 I mean, like you grab a random poodle off the street and you put it up against Usain Bolt.

00:35:47.100 That poodle is going to win.

00:35:48.160 I mean, all day long, of course, obviously all day long.

00:35:51.240 Um, but we're really good at going slow and cooling ourselves.

00:35:54.020 So we sweat, um, we have all these interesting ways of, of keeping our core temperature in

00:35:58.900 check.

00:35:59.420 So we would just slowly, but surely chase these animals down.

00:36:02.400 We'd bump them.

00:36:02.980 They'd sprint.

00:36:03.560 We'd bump them.

00:36:04.200 They'd sprint.

00:36:04.740 And eventually they would just get so hot that they couldn't go any longer.

00:36:08.060 And yeah, that's where the spear comes in.

00:36:10.420 But then the next thing we would do is that we would have to carry the animal back to camp.

00:36:15.020 Right.

00:36:15.480 We, we are the only species that can carry loads over distance.

00:36:20.280 So something, you know, some animals can carry, um, but they usually have to drag something

00:36:24.600 in their mouth and they can only do it really short distances.

00:36:27.000 I mean, we can carry stuff forever.

00:36:29.980 What do you mean drag something in their mouth?

00:36:31.260 Like drag it, pull it behind them.

00:36:32.480 Is that what you're saying?

00:36:33.460 Yeah, they can.

00:36:33.880 So if you think of something like a, uh, Jaguar after it kills an animal, it'll grab

00:36:39.060 it in its mouth, drag it a little bit, and then take it up into a tree, you know?

00:36:42.180 So that's like the limit of what they can do, but we can carry, um, really far.

00:36:46.740 And we have a lot of adaptations that help that too.

00:36:49.000 Like all the same adaptations that help us run, uh, slowly, but really far.

00:36:54.240 They also help us carry.

00:36:55.580 And we started to develop, um, shorter trunks because of this.

00:36:59.240 We have really strong grips compared to most other animals, although we're, we're generally

00:37:02.880 weaker, um, are great.

00:37:05.000 We got the thumbs, right?

00:37:05.740 The opposable thumbs, right?

00:37:07.120 Yeah.

00:37:07.840 And the, the, the force you can generate with your middle finger.

00:37:10.840 I mean, think of like doing a fire, uh, like a farmer's carry, right.

00:37:14.560 You can just grab, I mean, you can grab like body weight in each hand.

00:37:17.960 A lot of people can, you know, that's, um, it's pretty wild in the grand scheme of, of

00:37:22.440 time and all different animals.

00:37:23.940 And, um,

00:37:25.100 I'm wondering about like spinal alignment too.

00:37:27.640 That's something I've considered is that because we're upright, the load is directly over

00:37:31.700 our spine.

00:37:32.320 Like we can distribute it that way versus a four-legged animal that has to have it right

00:37:36.480 in the middle of their back, for example, but it doesn't distribute over their, their

00:37:40.420 limbs, which is really the base of, of, of them.

00:37:43.240 Yeah, exactly.

00:37:44.180 There's interest.

00:37:44.880 There's, uh, also interesting research that found, um, tribes in Africa who will carry a

00:37:52.080 lot of stuff.

00:37:52.400 Like the women will carry stuff on their head, you know, like big jugs of water.

00:37:55.820 They burn no more energy carrying a jug of water on their head versus carrying nothing.

00:38:02.980 I mean, think of how crazy we're just so, we're just so efficient.

00:38:06.900 They've just become so efficient at it.

00:38:08.300 There's like no energy cost.

00:38:10.180 Um, but yeah, so in the book I do, I get, I do get into a lot of the, um, history of

00:38:16.500 carrying and why it's still so important for us today, because, you know, back to running,

00:38:21.340 it's like something we did in our evolutionary past, um, still seems to be important for

00:38:26.520 us and a lot of people run, but how many people for a workout go, you know what, I'm

00:38:32.580 going to pick up some heavy stuff and I'm just going to carry it for distance, right?

00:38:36.880 Right.

00:38:37.440 Yeah.

00:38:37.640 Not, not many people, not many people, um, workout people do that's for sure.

00:38:42.140 Yeah.

00:38:42.540 The weird, those weird workout people up in Maine, um, the, you know, I argue in the book

00:38:48.620 that really the only people who have put this as a mass scale is, um, military terms

00:38:53.820 of, in, as a form of rucking.

00:38:56.000 Right.

00:38:56.960 So I met with some, uh, guys, the guys who founded the company go ruck and podcast.

00:39:03.500 Oh, good, good.

00:39:05.000 Yeah.

00:39:05.360 He he's, uh, Jason's great.

00:39:07.160 And, um, so they've kind of put this at a mass scale and I started to really look into

00:39:11.460 the science of it and I kind of describe it as, uh, cardio for people who hate to run.

00:39:18.120 And lifting for people who hate the gym because you are essentially getting the best of both

00:39:25.280 worlds, the load.

00:39:26.380 I mean, you're taxing your cardiovascular system because you're covering ground, but you're

00:39:29.700 also working a lot of your muscles because you've got, you know, you've got weight in

00:39:33.240 a pack and it's also a lot better for your joints, which is interesting.

00:39:38.360 So, you know, running as opposed to what?

00:39:40.780 Oh, better than running.

00:39:42.000 Yeah.

00:39:42.340 So running has, um, an injury rate of anywhere from 20 to 70% a year, which is, I'm going

00:39:49.180 to lead back on this podcast.

00:39:50.260 When somebody tells me I need to go running, I'm coming back to this moment.

00:39:53.180 I've timestamped this moment and, uh, I'll go ruck with the best of them, but man, running,

00:39:57.540 that's always been a challenge for me.

00:39:58.880 Maybe I need to do more of it though.

00:40:00.800 Uh, yeah, it might be good for you to learn how to do it.

00:40:03.380 Well, I think a lot of times too, we, um, our bodies have changed a lot and our mechanics

00:40:08.260 and how we live, that it just makes running like not easy on people.

00:40:11.680 And that's not to say that people in the past probably didn't have aches and pains after

00:40:16.360 running a really long distance, because I think there's this view that like, oh, our

00:40:20.620 ancestors were these amazing athletes who never felt pain and they were just pertinent.

00:40:24.580 It's like, no, that's not really true either, but we do know they did get injured a lot less

00:40:28.340 than us.

00:40:28.660 And we're generally a lot more active and a lot shape.

00:40:32.040 Um, so I think that rucking is like a really great way for the average person to sort of get

00:40:36.140 this thing we used to do in our evolution, evolutionary path back into your life.

00:40:40.100 And there seems to be potentially some unique benefits behind that.

00:40:43.320 Yeah.

00:40:44.160 So one of the questions I get asked all the time, because it's funny, you know, I listened

00:40:49.440 to a, uh, part of a podcast you did with Rogan and he said something interesting.

00:40:53.460 He said, uh, I don't think there'll be a lot of pushback on this or something as soon

00:40:58.060 as he said it.

00:40:58.660 I don't think you're being realistic about what's really going on here, but, but okay, let's

00:41:04.060 pretend that's the case.

00:41:04.940 And, you know, I'm tempted to say that too.

00:41:06.880 Most of the guys listening to this are shaking their heads.

00:41:09.780 Yes.

00:41:10.060 I know this is important.

00:41:11.100 Yes.

00:41:11.340 I need to do this now, whether or not they're doing it, that's a different story.

00:41:14.520 But one of the questions I get asked a lot is how do we push ourselves?

00:41:19.140 Not just physically.

00:41:20.520 Cause I think that's relatively simple.

00:41:23.360 Go do a Spartan race, go to the gym, go do jujitsu.

00:41:27.700 We all know the canned answers, but how do you push yourself mentally?

00:41:34.180 And emotionally, because I think that's just as important as the physical component.

00:41:38.940 And I'm not sure how to answer that question as good as I'm sure it can be answered.

00:41:44.460 Yeah.

00:41:44.980 Yeah.

00:41:45.420 Well, I mean, to go back to your original point, I think that, um, this idea of, you know,

00:41:50.560 getting out of your comfort zone, being good for us, I think it gets defined very narrowly.

00:41:55.380 So it's like people hear it and they're like, oh, well I get in ice baths and I go do CrossFit.

00:42:02.400 It's like our lives have changed so, so much over the last hundred thousand, 10,000, a hundred

00:42:09.980 thousand years.

00:42:10.580 We have no idea just how comfortable we've become in a variety of ways and how that has

00:42:15.820 affected us.

00:42:16.320 Like we have no freaking clue.

00:42:17.440 I mean, even think of waking up in a soft bed.

00:42:21.920 Well, part of the reason we all tend to have movement problems and joint problems and need

00:42:25.760 knee replacements is because we no longer sleep on the hard ground.

00:42:28.820 That tends to make us get into positions that are better for us as we sleep.

00:42:33.160 And it seems to prevent a lot of the problems that you see things like the fact that everyone

00:42:38.200 sits in chairs nowadays.

00:42:39.280 Yeah.

00:42:39.900 Right.

00:42:40.260 Sure.

00:42:40.620 You look at cultures that, um, don't have easy access to chairs.

00:42:45.360 They don't have as many knee problems.

00:42:47.080 They hardly have hip problems.

00:42:48.240 They probably, they hardly have back problems.

00:42:50.200 Like 80% of people in the U S have back pain at some point in their life.

00:42:54.340 So it's like the, the balance is just tipped so far, everything from our food system to how

00:43:00.380 we spend our attention now to where we spend our time, mostly indoors again, how we view, I

00:43:06.940 mean, there's so many different ways that things have changed.

00:43:09.040 And I don't think people realize like how different things are and the important things we've

00:43:14.300 lost.

00:43:14.940 So to get to your question about getting outside of your, um, I guess, psychological comfort

00:43:20.300 zone, there's a few different things that, um, I talk about in the book.

00:43:26.000 So one of them is, so to, to essentially write this book, the overarching narrative is this,

00:43:32.940 um, month long hunting trip I did in the Arctic.

00:43:36.120 Now I am a writer first and foremost, I occasionally go out into some like extreme places and extreme

00:43:46.660 gyms, but at the end of the day, I'm sitting behind a desk and I am typing at a keyboard.

00:43:50.380 Right.

00:43:50.820 So when Donnie, who, uh, Donnie Vincent, who he's been on your podcast, right?

00:43:56.220 He's been on my podcast.

00:43:57.280 And I think if I remember correctly, he's the one who introduced, introduced us.

00:44:01.040 Yeah, that's probably right.

00:44:02.980 Yep.

00:44:03.300 So, yeah.

00:44:04.480 Um, so when he invites me to come up to the Arctic for, with him, like I have to totally

00:44:10.120 overhaul my routine.

00:44:12.140 Now, the thing about humans is that we love routine because back in our past, if you could

00:44:18.360 predict the future, if you knew where your meal was coming from, if you, um, knew where

00:44:23.480 predators were, if you know what the weather was like, like you would just rinse and repeat

00:44:27.260 and do the same thing every single day.

00:44:29.440 And that, I think that goes back to the earlier conversation, save calories, expend as few

00:44:34.180 as possible.

00:44:35.660 Exactly.

00:44:36.740 And so this used to keep us alive, but nowadays, because our environments are generally so safe,

00:44:42.960 what happens is that we still stay in this routine and we tend to zone out on life.

00:44:48.200 Like we're not really present and aware.

00:44:49.640 I mean, think of like your day, your average day at the, like, you don't remember what you

00:44:54.520 did an hour ago, two hours ago, things to get sort of like time starts to really speed

00:44:58.640 up and we're just not really present.

00:45:01.200 And so, you know, when I have to go into the Arctic, I have to totally redo everything

00:45:05.780 in my life.

00:45:06.600 And so I think like having, forcing yourself to learn and do new things, what happens is

00:45:12.340 it kicks you out of this autopilot mode that we slipped into because all of a sudden I can't

00:45:17.480 predict the future and I don't know what's coming next.

00:45:20.480 And yeah, this is going to suck and be awkward.

00:45:22.880 And I'm going to look like a fool and I'm going to struggle, but I'm going to remember

00:45:27.860 every moment.

00:45:28.560 I mean, I can tell you all about like how I had to, what I had to do to get ready for

00:45:32.980 that trip.

00:45:33.400 And this went from everything, like having to change my training and to change how I

00:45:37.520 eat.

00:45:37.780 I had to do all this like preparation with like gear.

00:45:40.920 I had to read a ton about like the landscape.

00:45:42.900 I had to learn how to shoot a rifle better.

00:45:45.120 You know, I had like some, like I had experience with guns, but not really rifles.

00:45:48.940 Like I had to do all this different new stuff.

00:45:50.820 And I'm going to remember that.

00:45:52.640 And so it wasn't always easy though.

00:45:54.920 Right.

00:45:55.600 Um, the other thing, another couple of things come to mind is that, um, we're rarely bored

00:46:02.140 anymore.

00:46:03.220 Hmm.

00:46:03.920 And so when I'm up in the Arctic, we are a hundred miles away from even a single bar on

00:46:10.840 the cell phone.

00:46:11.380 Right.

00:46:11.700 I didn't bring magazine, didn't bring books.

00:46:14.480 And all of a sudden it's like, what do I do with all this time?

00:46:18.580 Right.

00:46:19.420 I'm bored again.

00:46:20.860 I'm bored.

00:46:21.500 When is the last time you remember being like mind-blowingly bored?

00:46:27.120 Yeah.

00:46:27.220 I mean, I was bored on the airplane yesterday, but that's because my phone died and I didn't

00:46:31.240 have anything to distract me.

00:46:32.420 And I'm sitting there, you know, reading that sky magazine or whatever.

00:46:35.880 I'm like, this is stupid.

00:46:36.800 And I struggled just sitting on a two hour flight because I didn't have my damn phone

00:46:40.780 in front of me.

00:46:41.960 Exactly.

00:46:42.500 So the average person is now spending more than 11 hours a day on digital media.

00:46:47.280 Right.

00:46:47.740 So this is like, hold up, hold up, hold up.

00:46:49.960 That sounds crazy.

00:46:51.540 The average person is spending more than 11 hours a day on digital media.

00:46:56.520 This is television, uh, cell phone screen time.

00:47:00.140 This is like iPads.

00:47:01.560 This is if you play video games, this is time behind your computer screen.

00:47:05.180 This is your radio.

00:47:06.960 I mean, yeah, it's all consumption of all of this stuff.

00:47:11.400 Yeah.

00:47:11.760 So we have these really easy, effortless escapes from boredom where, you know, in our past,

00:47:19.000 boredom used to basically tell us to go do something productive.

00:47:23.160 So we evolved to, it used to be this evolutionary discomfort that would kick on anytime we were

00:47:27.280 doing something that didn't have a high return on our time.

00:47:29.540 So let's say we're hunting, right?

00:47:30.740 And the hunt is not good, but we know we need food or else we're going to starve.

00:47:36.320 So pick us like, Hey, maybe you should go pick some berries or some potatoes or something else.

00:47:41.460 Right.

00:47:41.740 It would like compel us to do something productive.

00:47:44.520 Well, now this thing we have that used to be generally good for us, um, has been hijacked

00:47:51.160 by digital media.

00:47:53.360 Netflix, right?

00:47:54.320 You're bored.

00:47:54.800 Go watch it.

00:47:55.320 Go watch Netflix.

00:47:56.260 You're not bored anymore.

00:47:57.240 Done.

00:47:57.520 Yeah.

00:47:58.040 It's like stand in line at a grocery store.

00:48:00.460 If there's anyone waiting, they are on their phone.

00:48:02.780 Right.

00:48:03.540 So I'm guilty of it.

00:48:04.900 Yeah.

00:48:05.280 Yeah.

00:48:05.780 It's, I mean, it's easy.

00:48:06.860 This, uh, a neuroscientist that I talked to about this basically goes, you know, our

00:48:10.840 escapes from boredom now are essentially junk food for the mind.

00:48:15.340 But we also know that, um, some good things can come from boredom.

00:48:19.600 So when you, uh, boredom is associated with increased creativity, it also, it also gives

00:48:26.120 your brain a sort of rest period to rest and revive itself.

00:48:30.160 Um, our brains tend to be a lot really overworked by all that time that we're focusing outwardly.

00:48:36.820 And, um, it is uncomfortable, right?

00:48:40.040 But at the same time, when you go through that discomfort, you'll often find that your mind

00:48:43.820 will go to someplace a lot more interesting and beneficial and different than anything

00:48:48.720 that you're going to find on your 79th check of Instagram that day.

00:48:53.460 Right.

00:48:53.820 Yeah.

00:48:54.180 Two more likes and one, uh, spam in your DMS.

00:48:57.080 Yes, exactly.

00:48:58.460 I mean, to the creativity point, you're absolutely right.

00:49:01.380 One of the things that has been tremendously valuable in my life is just leaving the device

00:49:05.420 here, shutting down the computer and just going outside and going for a walk.

00:49:10.360 And every single time I go for a walk without fail, I come back re-energized.

00:49:15.920 I come back with new ideas or a solution to a little nagging problem that I may have been

00:49:22.080 dealing with.

00:49:22.780 It's, it's insane how well just a 10 to 15 to 20 minute walk works for me.

00:49:28.560 I do the same thing, man.

00:49:30.040 And you're doing the exact right thing.

00:49:32.060 That is like an easy way to weave this concept into daily life is take a walk, leave your phone

00:49:39.820 because the other thing, um, that taking a walk outside can do is, you know, we spend

00:49:45.360 93 or 4% of our time indoors now.

00:49:50.040 Um, but we evolved in nature, you know, and there's a lot of research that suggests that

00:49:55.260 nature is good for us for a lot of reasons.

00:49:57.540 It helps reduce time in nature, helps reduce stress, helps reduce burnout.

00:50:01.660 It also increases creativity.

00:50:04.060 Um, it increases productivity, just general wellbeing.

00:50:07.120 People just say they feel better after being in nature.

00:50:09.480 Now we don't want to, we don't want to go outside because it's too cold, too hot, right?

00:50:14.480 You can't predict what you're going to run into.

00:50:16.320 So it's a lot easier to just stay at home and sit on the cell phone, but like by going

00:50:20.980 out there and sort of being bored in nature, taking in those sites, braving the elements

00:50:25.960 a little bit, um, there's some real mental health benefits.

00:50:28.960 Plus you just, I guess this goes into what you're saying.

00:50:33.820 You just, you feel better.

00:50:36.360 You feel like more of a man maybe is the best way to say it.

00:50:39.060 When you do something for the sake of it being hard, uh, last year when I was doing 75 hard

00:50:43.900 with Andy Priscilla, I'm sure you're maybe somewhat familiar.

00:50:46.940 Uh, I would go outside in a rainstorm or even in, in a snow storm with my snowshoes on.

00:50:53.060 And I'd walk a couple of laps and it would take me, you know, 45 minutes to an hour.

00:50:57.920 I just, I felt like I accomplished something, you know?

00:51:00.520 Yeah.

00:51:00.940 Everybody's going to go for a walk on a sunny day, but I just went out there and did it

00:51:04.740 with my snowshoes in the snow.

00:51:06.500 Like you take pride in a, in a, in a sense of satisfaction in doing it harder than it needed

00:51:12.560 to be done.

00:51:13.160 I, I, I'm not a proponent of making life harder than it needs to be, but in training,

00:51:18.140 yes, I think you should make it more difficult than it needs to be.

00:51:21.000 Yeah, no, you're totally onto something.

00:51:23.680 I think it, I think it speaks to people.

00:51:25.180 You hear that like stuff like this from a lot of people and, um, yeah, I lost my train

00:51:31.160 of thinking.

00:51:31.520 Cause I think I thought I had a really good point to follow that up with, but now it's

00:51:35.000 gone.

00:51:35.660 You probably did.

00:51:36.720 We'll come back to it.

00:51:37.420 So I do want to come back to something we were talking about a minute ago.

00:51:40.580 Cause we were talking about the psychological benefits of, of hardship and some ideas.

00:51:45.560 What I heard you say was doing new things.

00:51:49.040 Is it, is it as simple as that?

00:51:50.340 Picking up the guitar, doing something new, public speaking, developing a new trait.

00:51:55.280 Is that what you're saying?

00:51:56.520 Yeah.

00:51:56.840 I think it can be anything new that you think is going to add value to your life.

00:52:00.940 Um, I have a friend who has this motto and wrote an article in a book that's basically

00:52:07.060 try and suck at something, pick something in your life where you're like, oh man, I'm going

00:52:11.120 to be bad at that, but I'm going to do it.

00:52:12.620 Um, I think you'll spend a lot of time frustrated, but along the way, like you're going to remember

00:52:18.960 doing that and you're going to like really remember progressing at that and, and finding

00:52:24.040 that like, Hey, I'm actually okay at this, you know, um, it's worth putting that time

00:52:29.240 in.

00:52:29.680 Yes.

00:52:30.120 Yes, exactly.

00:52:31.420 Exactly.

00:52:31.900 So you're talking about the path of least resistance is, is being an obstacle to stealing

00:52:37.740 ourselves, but I also think there's another factor here and that's our ego.

00:52:41.480 Cause when you talk about doing things that are hard, what man wants to go suck at something?

00:52:47.360 What man wants to go expose his weaknesses and his vulnerabilities?

00:52:51.220 No man wants to do that.

00:52:52.700 Right.

00:52:53.280 You included.

00:52:54.200 And yet the more you force yourself to do it, the better off you're going to be.

00:52:58.720 Um, yeah, a hundred percent.

00:53:00.680 And I think that that is, uh, that applies to so much of life.

00:53:03.560 I mean, cause we were just talking about training, um, the gym.

00:53:07.840 So I did, uh, I spent a lot of time at Jim Jones, which is this famous, uh, gym in salt

00:53:12.400 Lake that trained all the 300 guys.

00:53:13.960 And the guy who founded that was this, um, really extreme climber, uh, his name's Mark

00:53:19.720 Twight.

00:53:20.760 And, you know, his motto was basically like, if you're coming in here and doing the stuff

00:53:25.320 that you're good at, that you want to do, I can tell you, you're not going to be

00:53:28.080 that fit.

00:53:28.620 It's really getting yourself and like, well, I suck at the rower.

00:53:32.580 I hate that thing.

00:53:33.800 Guess I should probably be rowing today.

00:53:35.260 And that's, what's going to round a person out and make them more capable.

00:53:38.840 Um, and the whole thing with, you know, Jim Jones, it was like, it's the point is not

00:53:42.000 to like, just get fit for the gym.

00:53:43.480 It's to like, so we can take this thing out into the world.

00:53:45.640 And they had some people that did some pretty amazing things.

00:53:48.880 And that's a whole fundamental of it.

00:53:50.840 Like, yeah, you're going to look, you're going to look like an idiot in here, but guess

00:53:53.840 what?

00:53:54.540 You're going to benefit because of it.

00:53:56.680 Right.

00:53:57.220 So at the risk of maybe offending you to some degree here in that clip, I was telling you

00:54:02.080 about, when I listened to, uh, that Rogan, that Rogan clip, I saw a bunch of comments.

00:54:06.520 I should never look at the comments, but I always do.

00:54:08.980 And it was like, well, this guy looks like he's been behind a desk his whole life.

00:54:12.360 And you know, that kind of stuff.

00:54:13.900 Right.

00:54:14.160 Like, is this, is this, uh, pursuit something that is relatively new for you?

00:54:21.520 Or is this something that you've been aware of and engaged your entire life?

00:54:26.220 Yeah.

00:54:26.360 So I would say, um, it kind of depends on how you, how you define that.

00:54:30.100 So, you know, I was brought up by a single mom.

00:54:34.020 Um, dad left when he was early.

00:54:36.020 Uh, I also have struggled with substance abuse disorders.

00:54:40.780 So I kicked that about seven years ago.

00:54:42.980 I mean, that was, that was definitely uncomfortable.

00:54:44.660 And I think that that was an alcohol, drugs, both alcohol, alcohol.

00:54:48.740 Yeah.

00:54:49.000 Yeah.

00:54:49.380 Um, yeah.

00:54:50.880 Um, I come from a line of men who were just really good at drinking and raising health

00:54:54.620 basically.

00:54:55.100 And so I was kind of riding that same horse, if you will.

00:54:59.480 And, um, you know, that works until it doesn't.

00:55:02.000 And, uh, I could see it was going to end in a really bad way.

00:55:06.420 Did you hit some sort of wall or a moment, or was it just a realization before you hit

00:55:10.100 into that, uh, hit into that brick wall?

00:55:12.240 Yeah.

00:55:12.600 I just had a moment where, you know, I tried to stop a hundred times and I just had one

00:55:19.000 morning, but I could somehow always convince myself, nah, dude, it's going to be different

00:55:23.140 in this time.

00:55:23.680 You'll be able to have just two drinks, right?

00:55:26.180 Sure.

00:55:26.740 Literally never worked, but you can convince yourself of that.

00:55:31.340 And I had one morning where I could just very clearly see like, all right, if you continue

00:55:37.400 doing this thing that is comfortable for you drinking, cause that fixes all your problems

00:55:42.520 really fast, you know, at least momentarily, sure.

00:55:45.220 Momentarily.

00:55:45.620 It's also causing them, but it's a quick fix, right?

00:55:48.160 Right.

00:55:48.620 Right.

00:55:48.940 Good point.

00:55:49.400 I could see that I was going to, uh, die early.

00:55:52.200 Like I, it was just very clear to me.

00:55:53.720 I didn't know if it was going to be like 10 years from now or 60 years from now.

00:55:57.840 I just knew that it was going to be early.

00:56:00.220 Um, or I could go into this unknown that I knew was going to be really uncomfortable,

00:56:05.940 really hard.

00:56:07.640 It's going to take everything I got.

00:56:09.100 I didn't even know if I could, you know, cross that.

00:56:12.400 Um, but I thought there might be something there that would improve my life.

00:56:15.980 And, um, by getting sober, I mean, I was right.

00:56:19.440 Like literally every single thing in my life improved.

00:56:23.260 And so from there, I think that opened my eyes to, I was, uh, on staff at men's health

00:56:29.200 at the time, the magazine.

00:56:30.500 And, you know, I could see that like, pretty much there's this common thing about every

00:56:34.880 single thing we write about in that magazine.

00:56:36.980 And it's that like, to improve your life in some way or another, you, you have to go through

00:56:42.100 discomfort.

00:56:42.640 It's usually not easy, you know?

00:56:44.520 And so that's where this idea as a whole started to, to take shape.

00:56:49.440 And then from there, I mean, I think it's, yeah, I might, I might look a certain way, but

00:56:55.020 at the same time, I'm also not trying to position myself as the hero here.

00:56:59.800 Like I go out and I speak to experts.

00:57:02.460 I write, I will venture to bet.

00:57:04.980 I'm a lot damn better than that at any commenter.

00:57:07.940 Right.

00:57:08.840 For sure.

00:57:09.680 But back to 50, 50.

00:57:10.960 So mine was a month in the Arctic, um, done some, whatever stuff outside, but at the end

00:57:16.900 of the day, I live like a normal person.

00:57:19.100 And guess what?

00:57:19.800 That makes my writing better because I am writing for normal people.

00:57:22.980 So, I think that's a great point.

00:57:25.540 I mean, I feel very much the same way, you know, we don't put ourselves on pedestals and,

00:57:29.440 and, and barring you being the next Goggins or Cam Haynes or Donnie Vincent, who are just

00:57:34.500 unbelievable human beings.

00:57:36.160 Like we, I have a desk job, you know, I sit here in front of this computer and in front

00:57:39.920 of this mic all day, every day.

00:57:41.200 And I think that's what actually makes us relatable to the 99% of the population who does

00:57:47.060 the same thing that we do in some different capacity.

00:57:49.480 And yet finds a way to push ourselves outside of our comfort zones.

00:57:53.620 Yeah, exactly.

00:57:54.700 And I think that too, it's like, part of it is finding balance, you know, like, I think

00:58:00.800 that, um, like, for example, I'll take Donnie.

00:58:04.040 I love that dude, but I'm also the type of person where I'm like, I don't know if I want

00:58:07.880 to spend six months in the wild away from my wife and dogs.

00:58:11.400 Like, is that, does that like, would that be desirable?

00:58:13.500 Would that make my work any better?

00:58:14.820 I don't think it would make my work any better, you know?

00:58:17.440 So it's like you got, and for Donnie, I think that's what he needs to do, but it's really

00:58:21.100 about like finding your own path, but also realizing that you are proud to naturally want

00:58:27.260 to gravitate to the, to the easier, less challenging path.

00:58:29.920 And often by choosing that one, that's a little more challenging, a little more unknown,

00:58:34.040 taking risks.

00:58:34.760 Like I had to do back when I was getting sober, there's going to be something there for you,

00:58:39.320 you know, but it's not like we don't have to, I think in society, it's like, we try

00:58:43.040 and it's like, we worship the extremes.

00:58:45.820 And I don't know if that's sustainable or healthy over the long run.

00:58:50.440 Well, it's not realistic either.

00:58:52.020 You know?

00:58:52.480 So what I think what we ended up doing is we see guys like, like I mentioned, Donnie

00:58:56.100 Vincent, Goggins, Hayne.

00:58:57.580 I mean, there's, there's, there's a bunch of examples and we say to ourselves, well, I

00:59:03.100 want what he has.

00:59:04.120 You know, I, I want to go on that hunt that Donnie went on, or I want to, uh, uh, write

00:59:11.020 the New York times bestseller like David Goggins did, or I want to be able to run, uh, 27 miles

00:59:16.960 a day like Cameron Haynes does.

00:59:18.800 And so we see the highlight reel that we're like, that looks really good.

00:59:21.840 But then we never sync it with the amount of work that it takes to get there.

00:59:27.340 Joe Rogan's another example, since you're on his podcast is like, I used to say, well, I

00:59:31.700 want to have a podcast as, as prolific and big as Joe Rogan.

00:59:35.280 And then now that I'm in the business, I see, I don't know if I'm frankly, to be honest,

00:59:41.380 willing to put forth that much work because I have other things that are important to

00:59:45.540 me.

00:59:45.780 And so you're painting a more realistic picture of what you will and won't do.

00:59:49.760 And I think that's very, very important.

00:59:52.320 Yeah.

00:59:52.800 Yeah, totally.

00:59:53.760 And it's like constantly pushing yourself, but also trying to, um, sort of, I think drop

00:59:59.280 ego and realize like, what do, what's going to, what's the path here?

01:00:05.920 I want to be, do I want to be this, this vision I have of myself?

01:00:09.560 And like, what are, what am I trying to accomplish here?

01:00:12.520 You ask why and what enough times on that question, you might be asking yourself some

01:00:17.780 tough questions, right?

01:00:19.720 Right.

01:00:20.600 Well, and knowing yourself, because I think going out and doing these challenges really

01:00:24.880 says a lot about who you are and what you're capable of, or, and I should say, and also

01:00:30.380 who you could be and what you could be capable of if you did more of this.

01:00:36.000 Yes.

01:00:36.460 Yeah, exactly.

01:00:37.740 And I think that once you start to do this kind of stuff, a lot of doors open beyond

01:00:41.180 just this kind of stuff, you know, it's kind of back to where we were talking about,

01:00:46.700 like the modern world and everything we have now is so amazing.

01:00:51.360 Like, I, I'm not at all arguing that we stopped like embracing all this amazing stuff we have.

01:00:57.660 I mean, you're in Maine, I'm in Las Vegas.

01:00:59.880 We're talking, we're looking at each other talking right now, you know, it's like, it's

01:01:03.600 unbelievable.

01:01:04.760 Um, so it's like, it's not just like completely doing the opposite and dropping all like what

01:01:10.740 we can have now.

01:01:11.660 I think it's really trying to find your own, uh, balance.

01:01:14.620 Where would you suggest that somebody who's listening to this podcast and not obviously

01:01:20.620 get a copy of your book?

01:01:21.680 That's one thing I would highly suggest, but where do you suggest that individuals start?

01:01:26.380 You know, I get, uh, I get messages just to give you a little primer on this from men who

01:01:30.560 maybe grew up without a father, like you mentioned you did.

01:01:33.500 And I did for much of my early life as well.

01:01:36.200 Uh, they're being raised by women.

01:01:37.700 They don't feel frankly, like men.

01:01:39.500 Um, they're looking for a rite of passage.

01:01:41.300 They're looking for these challenges.

01:01:42.620 Where should somebody start?

01:01:44.740 Yeah, I would start by saying, um, two quick things is that I think people generally under

01:01:50.840 sell themselves.

01:01:52.600 Um, we evolved doing amazing things all the time out in nature every single day.

01:01:58.660 You can do a lot, a lot, but I think that we just get so used to our modern comfortable

01:02:04.320 world that we're like, everything seems a bridge too far.

01:02:06.880 So number one, realize that you can do, I mean, it sounds cliche.

01:02:12.620 To say you can do anything you can put your mind to, but like you can do a lot more than

01:02:16.840 you think.

01:02:17.260 I think people generally undersell themselves.

01:02:19.500 Well, I also think Michael, to that point, they let other people undersell them too.

01:02:24.640 Yes.

01:02:25.340 Because other people aren't willing to push themselves.

01:02:27.440 So if you and I were having a conversation, I might say to you, oh, you know, Michael, you

01:02:31.660 shouldn't go do that hunt with Donnie because, uh, you have a job and you have responsibilities

01:02:37.480 and it's going to be hard and you might die and all of these other reasons.

01:02:41.200 And it has less to do with what I think you or should or should not be doing.

01:02:44.520 And more with the fact that I don't want you to one up me because that's going to make

01:02:50.180 me look bad.

01:02:50.780 If you go out and do this, I've wanted to do it, but I'm not willing to go do it.

01:02:53.860 So it's going to make me look bad.

01:02:55.420 Yeah, dude.

01:02:55.920 Totally.

01:02:56.420 You're totally right.

01:02:57.320 And then number two, I go back to that idea of, uh, of Misogi.

01:03:01.020 It's like once a year, that is not a big time commitment.

01:03:04.260 You don't even have to train for it, pick something that frightens you, that you think

01:03:08.560 you truly have a 50, 50 shot of finishing, just some task in nature, make it kooky, make

01:03:13.840 it totally for you.

01:03:14.780 Don't compare yourself to other people.

01:03:16.060 Don't choose like a marathon and say, I want to finish in three hours.

01:03:19.140 Just pick some crazy distance point A to point B and go out and do that.

01:03:24.260 You know, because I think along the way you're going to face these moments where you're like,

01:03:28.300 I want to quit.

01:03:29.120 I can't go any further.

01:03:30.060 But when you go further than that and you don't quit, you realize, you start to get

01:03:34.480 a sense of like, Oh yeah, maybe they am more capable.

01:03:38.720 Maybe Ryan was onto something there, you know?

01:03:41.860 Yeah.

01:03:42.300 Yeah.

01:03:43.160 That's a great point.

01:03:44.840 Well, good, Michael.

01:03:45.680 Well, I appreciate it.

01:03:46.460 I know the guys are going to be really served by this conversation.

01:03:48.720 And of course the book, the comfort crisis, it's a big deal.

01:03:51.600 I mean, it really is.

01:03:52.360 And frankly, it's only going to get worse.

01:03:54.100 I think most of the men listening to this resonate with what we're sharing, but I would

01:03:59.080 suggest to you that you take advantage of what we're saying because it's easy to say

01:04:04.380 that, you know, I want to do good.

01:04:06.620 I want to be better.

01:04:07.220 I want to get stronger.

01:04:08.160 It's obviously infinitely harder to go out and do it.

01:04:10.720 So that's where the real work begins.

01:04:13.060 That's where the real results come from as well.

01:04:15.880 Yeah, for sure, man.

01:04:17.080 Well, I enjoyed being on and chatting with you, man.

01:04:18.820 That was super fun.

01:04:19.500 Yeah, you bet.

01:04:20.280 Where do we connect with you?

01:04:21.060 If the guys want to learn more, obviously they can pick up a book wherever they get the book,

01:04:23.880 but where else would you suggest?

01:04:25.980 Yeah, the book is available everywhere.

01:04:27.780 I have a website, eastermichael.com.

01:04:30.240 If you have questions for me, just shoot me an email.

01:04:32.100 I'm also on Instagram.

01:04:34.140 I think that's basically the only one I really use.

01:04:36.220 That's Michael underscore Easter.

01:04:37.800 And you can shoot me messages there too.

01:04:39.340 If you have questions about the book or, or whatever, you did a Masogi and failed and

01:04:43.420 now want to curse me out.

01:04:45.120 Awesome.

01:04:45.620 Well, if you fail, you did a Masogi and failed.

01:04:47.560 Just, I imagine your answer would be like, we'll try again, like finish next time.

01:04:51.940 Yeah.

01:04:52.340 You still learn something.

01:04:53.880 For sure.

01:04:54.900 I appreciate it, man.

01:04:55.940 We'll sync it all up.

01:04:56.840 I know at some point we'll probably connect face to face because we run around in similar

01:05:00.520 circles and have a lot of mutual friends.

01:05:02.380 So really appreciate your work.

01:05:04.800 Appreciate the book.

01:05:05.680 And of course your time with joining us today.

01:05:07.760 Thanks brother.

01:05:08.500 Hey, thank you.

01:05:09.120 Man, there you go.

01:05:11.080 My conversation with Michael Easter.

01:05:13.420 What a powerful, powerful conversation we were able to have.

01:05:16.320 And I hope in a way that you were a bit of a fly on the wall or even felt like you were

01:05:19.860 participating in that discussion because these are the kinds of conversations we need to continue

01:05:23.960 to have, especially as life gets easier and modern times make everything more seamless and comfortable.

01:05:31.400 Not that that's necessarily bad.

01:05:33.140 But if we don't counter it with some sort of hardship and challenge and suffering and meaningful toil, then I think we're setting ourselves and the people that we care about and have responsibility up for failure.

01:05:46.200 So please make sure you connect with Michael on Instagram.

01:05:49.640 That's where he's most active as am I.

01:05:51.920 So connect with him, connect with me, share the episode, leave the rating and review, check out Jocko Greens, the new supplement.

01:05:59.180 You have your marching orders.

01:06:00.400 Also, if you're interested in accountability, then make sure you check out the Iron Council.

01:06:05.440 You can do that at orderofman.com slash Iron Council.

01:06:09.740 All right, guys, we'll be back on.

01:06:11.980 Well, we'll be back tomorrow for asking anything until then.

01:06:14.700 Go out there, take action.

01:06:16.620 And become the man you are meant to be.

01:06:18.620 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:06:21.480 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:06:25.460 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - August 03, 2021

MICHAEL EASTER ｜ Seek and Embrace Discomfort

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