MICHAEL GERVAIS ｜ Get Over What Others Think of You
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 1 minute
Words per Minute
183.36658
Summary
Dr. Michael Gervais is a psychologist who studies mastery and what keeps us from obtaining it. In fact, he s worked with Super Bowl Champions, Olympic Gold Medalists, and some of the most elite performers in the world. Today, we discuss FOPO, which is fear of people s opinions, the first rule of mastery, why we care so much about what others think, how we over-expect approval as a necessary part of tribe building, and the dangers in being a one-dimensional man.
Transcript
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Fear keeps most men from pursuing meaningful and fulfilling opportunities in life, whether
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romantic or a business startup, having a hard conversation, asking for a promotion or the
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But it really isn't what we think it is, the fear of failure.
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More often than not, it's the fear of what others may think about us and that potential
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failure that keeps us from going after what we desire.
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My guest today is Dr. Michael Gervais, a psychologist who studies mastery and what keeps us
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In fact, he's worked with Super Bowl champions, Olympic gold medalists, and some of the most
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Today, we discuss FOPO, which is fear of people's opinions, the first rule of mastery, why we
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care so much about what others think, how we over-index approval as a necessary part of
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tribe building, and the dangers in being a one-dimensional man.
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Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
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When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
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You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
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At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
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I'm the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement.
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And here, we're giving you the tools and the framework, resources, and conversations that
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you need to thrive as a husband, business owner, father, community leader, coach, mentor,
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However you are showing up in life, I want to give you everything that you need.
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And as we roll into 2024 to become the premier podcast for men's resources and helping them
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And I've had guys like Jocko Willink and Terry Cruz, Tim Tebow, Tim Kennedy, Andy Frisilla,
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We have a very wide and diverse range of men with differing opinions and ideas and thoughts
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all come onto this podcast to share and impart some of their hard earned wisdom with us so
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that we can learn and don't have to learn it the hard way.
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Before I do, I just want to mention my friends up in Montana.
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They're our show sponsors, Montana Knife Company.
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They make their knives 100% made in America up in Montana, and they are beautiful knives.
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I give them to podcast guests, and every single person that I give a knife to has nothing but
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raving reviews for the effectiveness, the quality, the craftsmanship that goes into
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And when you do, use the code ORDEROFMAN, all one word, ORDEROFMAN.
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He's a national best-selling author and really one of the world's leading experts on the
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relationship between our mind and human performance.
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And over the course of a 20-year career, he's worked with world-class performers and
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organizations and developed a framework for the mental skills and practices that allow
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organizations to thrive in really pressure-packed environments.
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He's the author of The First Rule of Mastery, Stop Worrying About What Other People Think of
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and has been nationally recognized as an optimal human performance coach.
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He's been on NBC, ABC, Fox, CNN, ESPN, all the acronyms, all the networks.
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And he holds a doctorate degree in psychology where he specializes in sports performance
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He works with high performers and he is going to help us do the same.
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It sounds like things are moving with your latest book that you hit the top 10 list.
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I mean, on USA Today and we were hoping to make the list, let alone be number 10 out of
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I mean, obviously the book resonates with people.
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So obviously the book for guys that don't know is the first rule of mastery.
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But what do you think that resonates so deeply with the guys and why this book as opposed
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to, because I know you've written other books and other works, but sometimes something just
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This is a little bit of a, maybe a clever way to think about if somebody wanted to write
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a book that I accidentally backed into the strategy.
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But I wrote an article for Harvard Business Press and they called me 12 months later and
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You were the number one downloaded article for 12 months in a row.
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And so it was like an easy way to figure out like, is that concept working or not?
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I wrote the article because like it was something I struggled with, this idea of obsessively worrying
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about what people thought of me and it was something that got in my way of me being free
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And so I just wrote this article about, and I had fun with the title about FOPO, Fear
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And I just, I tagged it that it's one of the greatest constrictors of human potential,
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this excessive worry about what people think of you.
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And I just talked about the narrative, you know, like why so many of us have it, I think,
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and especially in elite performing environments and ways to potentially kind of work through
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And so we said, let's, let's figure out what the science behind it is.
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So, yeah, no, I think that's a great way to do it.
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I've actually had similar things happen by accident where, you know, I might make a social
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media post and it, and it just takes off or even a podcast title or something.
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And it blows up and you think, okay, well, there's something deeper here that we need
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I think you're right about fear of people's opinions.
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This is one of the most commonly asked questions, whether it's directly that way or in a roundabout
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And I see so much fear and everybody knows like, oh, what's your, what the fear is holding
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so many people back, but what they don't realize, it's not the fear of the thing itself or even
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failure, at least in my mind, it's the fear of what other people will think about your potential
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You know, and even working with folks that operate in highly rugged environments, sometimes
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And let me just frame that early in my career, I spent time in pro sport.
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Then I left and I went into highly consequential environments where people make mistakes, people
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Like it was, it was Red Bull Stratos where Felix Baumgartner jumped from 120,000 feet, 130,000
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feet, special operators, pilots, you know, Air Force pilots, fighter jet pilots, da, da, da,
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And so then I went back to pro sport and I went back to 10 years with the Seattle Seahawks.
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And so there's some ruggedness in football, but not really all that consequential.
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And so whether it's a rugged environment or consequential environment or more a metallic,
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like, I mean, basketball is not all that rugged, nor is it all that consequential.
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So it's more like this, um, metallic excellence feeling.
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Like you can strive without having ankles and knees, uh, warranted, but you know, it just
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has a different fear than football in the back country, if you will.
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So in those environments, people, um, consistently talk about not wanting to blow it, not wanting
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It is like, I don't want to die and I don't want other people to die because of my mistakes.
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So those environments, I just kind of hold in high esteem that they're just a little
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different, but for the rest of us, for the rest of us that are not operating in those
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amphitheaters, um, it really is like not wanting to let people down, look stupid, blow it, you
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know, um, be a lame team member, fill in the blank.
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So it really is about the opinions I think of others.
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And it's the, it's the water that we're swimming in and we haven't, I don't know, at least in
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my lifetime, no one really pointed it out so directly to me.
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So I thought that I was just kind of the weird one that was over indexing on, um, approval
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And that come to find out there's some real brain mechanism that goes back hundreds of
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thousands of years about why that is so important.
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Yeah, that's actually where I was going to go with it.
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I mean, I have, I have theories, you have data and science.
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I guess my theory is we don't want to be ostracized from the tribe, which goes back tens
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of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years.
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That's my thought anyways, does, does the data support that?
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Cause if you and I were in a tribe and, you know, we were trusted to do something and
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we came back empty handed over and over again, maybe three, four times, and we're kind of
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So not only are we coming back empty handed, letting people down, but we're kind of knuckleheads
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at some point elders say, look, you're on warning now.
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You're going to, you're going to have to be, you're going to have to fend for yourself.
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And so rejection was a near death sentence because trying to figure out how to fight,
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forge, fend, hunt and gather all by ourselves was too much.
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The wild's too big, you know, and we'd be, you know, taken advantage of by the wildebeest
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or warring tribes or just mother nature in general, obviously that near death sentence
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was so such a big driver that 200,000 years forward to modern times, like we're still
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scanning to see if we're okay in the eyes of others.
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And in modern times, like, you know, if the tribe kicks us out, there's other tribes, like
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The problem right now is like people's opinion actually does hold power and some people's
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opinion hold great power, like your supervisor, like your college entrance, you know, whatever
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it's called, if you're trying to get into college, I'm blanking on the name, admissions
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So some people hold great power and other people, we just reflexively give them that power.
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And that's where it starts to get really wonky.
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And when you can decouple those two things, there is a more freedom on the other side of
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And there's a bunch of other ways to find a bit more freedom around this, but that
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I actually want to talk about whose opinions matter, but before I do, it's, it's interesting
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It's a bit ironic that we're so worried about being part of the tribe that in order to avoid
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being ostracized from the tribe, we'll actually isolate ourselves from the tribe or from the
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And we won't engage and we won't surround ourselves with people because we don't want
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to lose something that we don't actually currently have.
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So you're, there's, you're picking up on something really cool.
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And so there's three phases to FOPO and again, fear of people's opinions, right?
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This great constrictor of going for it in life.
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There's the anticipatory phase where like you're in your closet worrying about what, you know,
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what you're going to pick out and wear for later.
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And that sounds, maybe that sounds like trite, but if you just use that idea that you're,
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you're planning and shaping yourself for an event later, because you really want to show
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right for them as opposed to, you know, be about it, be you, you know, drop your hips in
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a way that it's like, you're in it fully and you're a great partner to other people, but
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like you really are owning your body of work, owning your history.
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Okay. So that's a different way of going through it.
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And then the second is when you're actually in the environment with the other person that
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you have given this power to, that their opinion matters so much that we are highly
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So it's anticipation, anticipation, then checking.
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And in that checking phase, we're just seeing if we're okay.
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We're looking for the way that they squint, the way that they laugh, smile, nod, you know,
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how do they hold themselves with the tone and contour of their voice.
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And we're checking to see if we're about to be rejected or if we're okay, we're safe in
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And that leads to the third phase, which is how we respond when they give us some kind
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of hint that we might not be enough according to them.
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So it's mild, but we start to ship, you know, shape shift just a little bit.
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We'll pretend like, you know, we're drinking something, even though we don't want to drink,
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You know, we'll say that we know that movie, but we never watched it.
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You know, like that's small little adjustments that take place.
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We'll flat out laugh at an offensive joke, fill in the blanks.
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And then it goes to your point that we'll straight out disconnect from people because
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Like having to, you know, having to bend to their approval is so overwhelming that we say,
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And so that is one of the five ways that we do respond when it feels too much.
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How do you avoid misinterpreting that, those checking type cues?
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Because I've had situations where I might assume somebody's thinking one thing and then
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I'll respond based on what I interpret and I could be completely off.
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For example, somebody might be rude to me and then I'll respond by either being rude back
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or ignoring them or just moving on, but they weren't actually being rude.
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We hit the science in the book, which is, and I don't have the exact numbers, but there
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was a study that was done and they took a look at life partners, like over 15 years and people
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And the idea was try to guess what the other person's thinking and they would give them
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And even life partners, like people that are supposed to be able to finish each other's
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sentences were terrible, terrible at this game.
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So again, even the person, you know, best, we're not good there at guessing what they're
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So the best strategy, according to the research is to do the most obvious, which is to ask,
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Hey, it looks like you're not vibing with what I just said.
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I had something in my eye or, you know, what gave you that opinion?
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Oh, well, actually I was, my eyes are kind of whatever and I'm, I need, I need to get
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Whatever the issue is, we are really unskilled at guessing what another person's thoughts
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Micro expressions and expressions give an hint, give a hint or a look, but it's not the full
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mechanism of what's actually happening inside a person.
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So just ask sounds so simple, but it does require a bit of deference to say, I'd like
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You know, like there's a little bit of deference in it.
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So we tend to play it cool rather than be accurate with what's actually happening.
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I'd like to hear your thoughts because I think sometimes if you do ask a person that, that
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could be threatening to a person that you're asking if they are feeling awkward or uncomfortable
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or some sort of something towards you and they'll, they'll lie.
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I mean, a wife, for example, might do that all the time.
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So, so how do you determine or work through some of that?
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What is a freaked out, insecure, neurotic and something else?
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Like, or whatever, like there's a different way of fine as opposed to, no, I'm, I'm really
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So fine is a trigger word in my relationship as well.
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You know, so I know I need to double click like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
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So what I do when, when that happens, when somebody kind of puts up a, like a, an emblem,
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they say one thing, but they mean another or whatever.
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And I, instead of like double clicking in an aggressive way, I disengage in a way that's
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Like, and so I use playfulness in that, in that moment, like, whoa, okay.
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And it just kind of takes the piss out of it enough to, to breathe some space into it.
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And, um, so if you can, if you have the presence to not get sucked in, but to actually create
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space, I think you end up figuring out how to do better in just about any relationship,
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but that requires awareness that requires being non-reactive that requires some discipline
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and some sophistication and how you work with your own thoughts, how well you are, um, aware
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of tripwires and we all have them and it's the ones that are undisciplined that are reflexively
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flying off the handle or getting pissed off or agitated or irritated when somebody, a person
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that you do not control, there's nobody in this world that we control and God forbid they
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say something that is, um, orthogonal or antagonistic or, um, whatever to how we want it to go.
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Um, so we got to do a little better, dude, like, and, and it does, it does, it does require
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Um, and there's a whole set of practices to be able to do that.
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I think what I've experienced when somebody says I'm fine or, you know, something like
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What comes up for me naturally is a lot of insecurity.
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Oh, they must be thinking something negatively about me.
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And then, you know, you start to respond in a way that does, it's not conducive to a healthy
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Uh, and, and I think it takes some level of integrity doing what, you know, you need to
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And then, like you said, having the space and, and the confidence to be able to say, okay,
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If something changes or whatever else, let me know.
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And then just driving on, but insecure people can't do that because they make other people's
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It's more of a selfish approach than a selfless approach.
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I think, at least that's what I've experienced personally.
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There's a, there's a, um, like people that are struggling or suffering in some level of
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Thriving, struggling, suffering people that are struggling or suffering.
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Um, they just like a, a, a wounded animal, you know, caught in a trap or something they're,
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they're supposed to figure out how to take care of themselves, right?
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Because they're in pain, they're struggling or even suffering.
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So it makes sense that they would think about themselves before other people, whether you're
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a narcissist that looks like you're thriving, but you're actually just taking care of your
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original pain that took place in your life early on, you know, thank you, mom and dad
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Um, or, you know, you're flat out anxious, uh, um, uh, in some other kind of way and fill
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in the blank depression, all the other maladies that we do wrestle down.
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So, so when somebody is struggling, they need, they say, how am I, am I okay?
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But when somebody is up above the line thriving, they say, are we okay?
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And so the we versus the I is one way to think about, um, how you reflexively respond to something
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If the, if the reflex is, are we okay, but you're coming from a place of weakness because
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you've, your happiness depends on their happiness.
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If you're, if you're reflecting from that standpoint, it's, it's not above the line
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Like, is everything cool is different than dancing underneath in an anxious way, presenting
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like I care about our relationship, but I'm really just trying to take care of myself.
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So you can think about it above the line and below the line in that respect.
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We need to know if we are above the line and below the line and we can feel it with other
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I like that distinction and it's not about the verbiage.
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So codependency, people, pleasers like, yeah, I'm just, I get fatigued by it.
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And it's a relationship that unless they make some changes, um, like some real changes,
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growth between the two people usually doesn't happen.
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So, I mean, I, I think it reeks of desperation when somebody is doing that.
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Everybody has guys listening to this have been desperate for a romantic relationship or
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relationship with somebody else or a boss or a client or whatever.
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However, how do you, I mean, this is a very broad question, but how does somebody who has
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some level of desperation there below the line, how do they begin to shore that up so
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that they don't, they don't have as much of a vested interest in what other people think
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So, I mean, a couple hundred year old science of psychology is rad and we have tabooed it.
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It's the most extraordinary thinkers and doers on the planet.
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Pull me into rooms faster than the second tier because they're really on a mission.
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They understand that they've got to be their very best.
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They've got a real purpose in line and like they're about it.
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And so what they're looking for is how to work from the inside out.
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How does thought one and thought two, you know, configure into thought three and how
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does thought one, two, and three shape emotion A or B?
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Like if you don't know how that's working, you are by definition whipped around by the
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The most powerful people on the planet, they decide how they're going to go through an experience.
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They are not about to let the external world dictate their internal experience.
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And so they've done enough internal work to be about it, whatever it is, whatever values
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or virtues or purpose that they're standing for, they're going to be about it.
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And that takes incredible mental awareness, psychological awareness, and it takes incredible
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psychological skill because the trade winds outside of us are pretty radical sometimes.
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Like people have power, you know, and there are things on the line that are costly when
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And it is reflexively so much easier just to belong.
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There's safety in being in the center of the pack.
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And so if we don't invest in our own mind, our brain will win.
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And so the brain is the tissue that's kind of running the program, the 3.2 pounds of tissue
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And the mind is a bit like the software that, if strong enough, operates to run the hardware.
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But if your mind is not elevated, invested in, upgraded, trained, the brain wins.
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Yeah, it's that, uh, what are the, the, the lizard brain or whatever they call it, which
00:25:08.200
is the, uh, the, uh, the early versions of our brain, you know, before we were able to
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process thought and emotion the way that we can today.
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The, the question I have though, is there, are there certain tactics or practices that
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somebody could implement in order to become more aware and work from the inside out?
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For example, uh, journaling has been big for me.
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And I asked myself in my journal, why, as I have an experience, why do I feel that way?
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What, what circumstance or experience did I have that made me believe that was true?
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Why did I respond in a healthy way in this circumstance?
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So the whole inner game starts with awareness and there's three best practices for awareness.
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And it's a forcing function to be honest with yourself, to be honest with your word choice,
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to be more easily connected to the emotion that those words that you're choosing are calling
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You know, some people, their brain and their writing ability are disincopated.
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And it becomes like a very frustrating experience.
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The other is sitting and being in conversations with people of wisdom.
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It could be your, it could be your, your clergy.
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But sitting across from a person that holds wisdom.
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And when their focus is orientated in a, from wisdom and they're focusing on you and they
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are seeing the truth of what you're saying and feeling and doing, or when you're not
00:27:05.600
right, that, that is a radical commitment because those people hold you to the fire.
00:27:14.100
You feel and you think, and they'll take you to the edges in a very short order amount of
00:27:20.360
It requires vulnerability and in that requires risk.
00:27:24.100
So that, so that's where I'm sitting across a human that holds wisdom.
00:27:28.440
That's dedicated to listen and to understand you.
00:27:32.920
And the third is meditation a la mindfulness practices, you know, sitting and doing your
00:27:37.480
meditations is a way to become evidence-based and an ancient tradition to become more aware
00:27:44.920
Meditation has always been a struggle for me because I don't really know what it is or what
00:27:50.100
Like, do I just sit there and like, not think, or do I sit there and think about things?
00:27:55.500
You know, do I like, what, what does it mean to be present in the moment?
00:27:59.060
All of these concepts that are kind of hard for me to wrap my, my mind around if I'm being
00:28:08.080
It's, it's, it is one of the grounded foundational program or, um, practices to become more aware.
00:28:15.060
There are hundreds of apps out there, brother, like go get one, you know, like there's so
00:28:20.080
many, I'll send you, I'll send you, I've been practicing for 20 some years.
00:28:23.360
I'll send you one of my favorite that, that I pass on to my athletes.
00:28:36.820
And it doesn't, I mean, sometimes it's just a handful of breaths.
00:28:41.720
Sometimes it's 20 minutes, you know, so it ranges, but for the more than not, it's better
00:28:47.720
And it's, um, I don't know how I do life without it.
00:28:53.960
And, um, the world does not need a 22 year old like period.
00:28:59.500
And so like, I, I don't know how I would have done it without it.
00:29:03.400
So it helps me understand what's really happening in my own life, in my own head, my own heart.
00:29:10.140
And it's given me more power than I ever thought I would ever be able to attain.
00:29:14.460
So I feel like I'm in control of me better than I ever was.
00:29:20.380
There's what's called single focused mindfulness.
00:29:24.860
And the other type is called contemplative mindfulness.
00:29:34.440
Let's just say it's for two minutes and all you're going to focus on as if a loved one's
00:29:40.360
life depended on you getting it right was with all of your essence, you focus on your inhale.
00:29:46.600
And then when you reach the top with all of your essence, you focus on your exhale and
00:29:51.780
then rinse and repeat, you know, for two minutes, inhale, exhale, inhale, but with all of your
00:29:56.760
Now, what's going to happen on your inhale, your mind's going to wander away from it.
00:30:00.200
And you're going to say, I don't know, am I doing this right?
00:30:08.000
You're like, I see you come back to the task at hand, which is the exhale.
00:30:14.160
And then your mind goes, I don't know, the laundry list of things you've got to do, or
00:30:17.900
you think about your left butt cheek is now numb or whatever.
00:30:20.780
You're just, you're working with yourself and it's starting over a thousand times.
00:30:28.420
And what that's training is for you to be in the present moment more often.
00:30:32.360
And when you're in the present moment more often with anything, you have the opportunity
00:30:41.840
When you're operating from a real deep source of truth, as opposed to like the surface game,
00:30:46.240
it's a totally different way to going through life and the present moment, it's where high
00:30:52.240
So if you're training your mind to be more present, you're going to move up the ladder
00:30:57.160
That's how I, you know, that's the, the world I operate in.
00:31:00.500
The second is that it's where all things that are amazing happen.
00:31:04.340
Can I say something about that before you jump into the second form of this?
00:31:08.900
I've seen this even just recently, just recently physically as I train, you know, I would go
00:31:14.840
through, through a, a workout program kind of haphazardly and, you know, just go through
00:31:20.440
But when I started to get serious about it, I would think about being under a bar, for
00:31:27.440
And I'm not thinking about all of these other things, just get through the workout.
00:31:30.480
I'm thinking about where to put my feet, where my shoulders need to be, how my back
00:31:35.720
needs to be arched, the path of the bar that it needs to follow.
00:31:38.720
So, uh, and it's not, it's not coincidence that my performance increases and I start to
00:31:45.280
see results because I'm present in every little detail of the movement itself, not thinking
00:31:51.900
about what the next movement is or what I have to do later today or any other distractions
00:31:56.400
that could keep me from being focused on that task at hand.
00:32:01.780
Or is he or she looking at how many plates I have?
00:32:06.360
So, so what you're talking about is being fully present and that's where high performance
00:32:16.800
Now, when you're in the messiness of life or a performance environment and you've trained
00:32:20.780
yourself to be more present, it's like, it's an exponential opportunity that you're going
00:32:27.100
to be more present in the performance environments that, you know, matter to you.
00:32:30.580
So the other thing, the second point is that, um, it's where everything good happens.
00:32:35.760
It's like, that's where joy and love and laughter and fun.
00:32:39.300
And in the present moment, like you can't get a joke.
00:32:41.980
If you're anxious, you can't, you can't celebrate.
00:32:45.160
If you're up in your head, you miss, you miss shit.
00:32:47.880
The third thing is that's where deep wisdom happens.
00:32:50.520
And deep wisdom is that ability to kind of be like a reclining dragon.
00:32:55.040
You know, like you got all this fire and you, you don't have to, you don't have to snort
00:33:01.780
Like you just know that you are a badass dragon.
00:33:05.720
And so you can just kind of sit on your hind quarters when you want to.
00:33:11.520
And that's so mindfulness is a practice to increase all three of those.
00:33:17.620
Men, let me step away from the conversation very briefly.
00:33:20.080
I hear from a lot of men who are on the fence about banding with us inside of our exclusive
00:33:26.240
Uh, this is for many reasons that they want to join, but they don't.
00:33:30.340
And much of which stems from the topic of this conversation, fear, fear of what these guys
00:33:35.440
may need to do, a fear of what they may need to acknowledge in themselves and fear of looking
00:33:46.260
If you've been sitting on the fence, is your life better, worse, or the same since you've
00:33:56.880
And I think that's the answer because in order to improve in your life, you have to do something
00:34:03.660
I don't get into the false evidence appearing real.
00:34:10.640
But what you're going to find when you join us is a group of men who are going to work
00:34:15.600
to help you succeed in a proven system to help you do it.
00:34:19.980
So if you're ready to get off the fence, get into the game, do the work and overcome the
00:34:24.140
fear that may be holding you back, then join us at order of man.com slash iron council.
00:34:34.860
Again, that's order of man.com slash iron council.
00:34:45.600
How does this relate to the concept of mastery?
00:34:49.860
I mean, you've made a career off of mastery and sometimes I wonder what it is.
00:34:58.300
You master something, for example, and therefore you've achieved or unlocked something or is
00:35:03.500
mastery more of a process rather than the result of the process?
00:35:10.440
High performance and mastery are like cousins, right?
00:35:13.580
Mastery, I would say as an ordering position sits on top of high performance.
00:35:19.240
So high performance is really interested about being able to execute on demand, right?
00:35:28.800
I can do it at an elite level under complicated conditions.
00:35:34.180
So that's high performance and I'm not interested in peak performance.
00:35:38.920
That seems to me like that's crazy that we're trying to peak.
00:35:42.840
I'm interested in sustaining high performance, like a superior elevated state that I'm able
00:36:07.600
If I'm a true master, I can deliver across complicated conditions.
00:36:12.040
But there's a shape to it where I'm now more artistic in it.
00:36:17.960
And it's not because I'm interested in the expression of high performance.
00:36:22.500
I'm actually interested in the larger context of how I'm designing my life.
00:36:35.680
You can do it in complicated conditions, meaning when there's duress or stress or pressure or
00:36:40.620
And then, but it's also committed to mastery of self.
00:36:46.600
So high performers, like you and your whole community knows some really sophisticated performers
00:36:52.320
that you don't really want to have open over for dinner.
00:37:01.620
But then when they get over to dinner, it's all about them.
00:37:07.380
There's an obtuse, narcissistic way about them.
00:37:12.560
They're not somebody you'd want to get in a foxhole with.
00:37:18.800
And they've spent, I don't know, 20,000 hours investing in how to be able to deliver when
00:37:25.920
So mastery is more about mastery of self and mastery of craft.
00:37:30.060
And there's a different artistic commitment to the way that you're designing your life.
00:37:35.220
And I'm far more interested in mastery than high performance.
00:37:38.760
And so that's just kind of where my evolution has been in my life.
00:37:42.720
Yeah, I've never really heard it explained like that.
00:37:45.400
I was actually watching a video at the gym this morning, or it was highlights of a basketball
00:37:50.900
And I can't remember who was playing, but it was tied and it went to overtime.
00:37:54.840
And Steph Curry, eventually somebody passed the ball to Steph Curry, which is a good bet.
00:38:04.080
And he had, I mean, a split second to make this shot before the defender, you know, had
00:38:09.320
his hand in his face and made this incredible three-point shot to put him up by five points,
00:38:15.020
I think, and the time expired after about 10 seconds.
00:38:18.280
You know, I watched that clip this morning and I just thought to myself, that's incredible
00:38:24.220
He had made the decision to shoot before he got the ball, probably.
00:38:27.480
Uh, and he, he made the shot in spite of being rushed.
00:38:31.940
It looked like every other shot that he had made, the defender was in his face and it was
00:38:37.820
I just, it was so incredible, truly incredible.
00:38:43.660
You know, and that culture that they've built, the culture that they've built, I spent some
00:38:49.460
Um, when I was up at the Seattle Seahawks, he came up to understand what coach Carroll and
00:38:53.540
I were doing to try to build the culture at the Seahawks.
00:38:55.940
And I think a lot of people might find this, um, surprising, but he's built his culture
00:39:04.000
on joy and love and togetherness, you know, like it's, it's, it's, it's foundation is about
00:39:12.920
celebrating the fun, the joy of being your very best and to do it together.
00:39:20.840
It doesn't mean that just cause you say it, that's what it is, but, um, they're more,
00:39:27.340
And it's pretty cool to know that that's, you know, that's out in the world like that.
00:39:32.320
That sounds more like a mastery and artistic expression of, of enjoying the game or enjoying
00:39:40.200
As opposed to like, I don't know, Bill Belichick, I've got great respect for what he's been
00:39:44.120
able to do, but like their culture is do your job.
00:39:50.360
And, um, which is very different than let's celebrate being your best.
00:39:56.800
And so, and of course, cause I haven't been in those walls, I could have it completely
00:40:01.760
I'm just picking up on what guys have told me, but, um, you know, he's won a lot, you
00:40:11.940
And at what cost I would say, let's, let's just take, take the Patriots and Bill Belichick
00:40:17.540
out of it, but a culture that is about execution on demand.
00:40:20.760
I don't care who you're, what your name is, what your backstory is, where you grew up.
00:40:26.680
Are you going to put the rock in the back of the bucket when it matters?
00:40:30.080
Um, those environments are so dismissive of the essence of the human.
00:40:34.340
It creates great turmoil for people after they leave the league because they were used,
00:40:40.140
they were bought, they were traded, they were, they were used for their talent and they made
00:40:45.600
a lot of money and they've got a platform if they want to do something after.
00:40:51.120
Why is it that 87% in the NFL within two years of leaving the league are completely broke?
00:40:59.400
Those there's not enough cultures that are saying, look, we're going to figure out how
00:41:10.960
I want to know your ambitions, your hopes and dreams.
00:41:13.220
And I want you to know mine because when it comes down to it, we need to, we need to
00:41:19.200
And what happens for most people is the beginning of the year, whoo, we're going to go get it.
00:41:27.420
And then as soon as like things go sideways and there's real stress in the system and
00:41:32.560
it's starting to fray, people pull their arms apart.
00:41:35.140
And that's where the whole thing falls apart, you know, because we know that sport is make
00:41:40.280
We know that like, these are man, human made rules with like artificial consequences.
00:41:50.100
You don't, there's no, there's no landmine there.
00:41:52.860
You just get called as a foul, you know, and people boo and maybe you don't get another
00:41:57.720
contract and I'm being dismissive to their pressures, but that's why we don't take care
00:42:03.060
of each other is because the consequences are not real.
00:42:06.420
When consequences are real and you're in a foxhole, you, you, you're only going to want
00:42:13.100
to be in those foxholes with men that are people that you know are about it.
00:42:19.780
And the only reason you do that is because you've invested in them and they've invested
00:42:24.580
So that's where relationships sit at the center of anything that's going to be special period
00:42:32.800
I I've talked with over 450 men now on this podcast and all of them incredible in their
00:42:40.360
own right, but there are very, uh, quite a few of these men who are so one dimensional.
00:42:46.360
They are so good at their thing at the expense of everything else.
00:42:50.600
And some would even suggest because they've told me that they're not fulfilled in life.
00:42:55.940
They're just exceptional at this one thing and they do it really, really well, but the relationships
00:43:07.740
Uh, being one dimensional, isn't something that I'm interested in.
00:43:12.460
I think I'm interested in a more of a well-rounded man.
00:43:17.900
It's desperate because when that thing gets threatened, there's nothing left.
00:43:23.700
That's why, that's why public speaking is so terrifying for so many because their entire
00:43:30.840
And we hit this in the book, it's called performance-based identity.
00:43:33.900
And of course it makes sense that certainly in the United States, we're going to have performance-based
00:43:42.880
So what happens for people is when they're going to walk up those five stages or five steps
00:43:46.680
to get on stage and it feels like they're being chased by a saber tooth or wildebeest, that
00:43:53.960
it's because their entire identity is on the line because what they are, not who they are,
00:44:03.640
And if those eyeballs are looking with some disdain or confusion and they're undressing the
00:44:09.780
person on stage because they're not good enough in the way that they're thinking or executing
00:44:13.460
or sharing their ideas, everything's on the line.
00:44:20.360
And so that's why people act out of some desperation and anxiety, a la fatigue and sometimes depression.
00:44:27.860
We are more tired than we've ever been in my lifetime.
00:44:36.800
And I believe it's because we're not working from the inside out enough.
00:44:41.000
It's not that the external world is all that bad.
00:44:45.180
I say that with an asterisk next to some parts of the world that are at war.
00:44:51.000
And for people that are in poverty and struggling in our own country and 300 million people in
00:44:58.020
And, you know, so there are places that are really fucking hard.
00:45:01.740
But for most people, probably in your community, it's not all that bad.
00:45:18.180
We romanticize it, though, and think that it would be better.
00:45:27.300
But anyways, like the contour and the shape and the roundness that you're talking about
00:45:33.860
It's having dimension, having insight, working from a place of global thinking and intimacy
00:45:44.580
And so anything less than a sophisticated understanding of how psychology works will fall short.
00:45:49.860
Is there value in analyzing performance, though?
00:45:58.300
I look at podcast downloads, for example, or I look at the way that I might be not as easy
00:46:04.480
to quantify, but the way that I'm showing up for my children.
00:46:09.520
It seems to me that there is some value, though, in looking at your performance as a metric
00:46:18.800
Like if we can't deliver, then like in pro sports, if I didn't help a team win or perform
00:46:27.680
well consistently, you know, I'm kicked off the plane.
00:46:32.080
The owner is going to fly his private jet no matter what.
00:46:34.720
The team's got their charter thing because that's the investment.
00:46:37.120
And, you know, I'm kicked off the boat trying to or on my own little dinghy trying to figure
00:46:53.760
It's your commitment to being dimensional as opposed to kind of having only a single focus.
00:47:01.980
It's your commitment to being a good partner because nobody can do it alone.
00:47:11.620
I've cornered three cage fights at the UFC championship fights.
00:47:15.940
He or she is alone in the cage, but they didn't get there alone.
00:47:20.480
We all have teams, teams and teams, teams behind teams.
00:47:29.680
And if you get some of that stuff right, you get your core capabilities, you get good relationships
00:47:34.920
forged, and you can weather some tough, difficult times.
00:47:40.540
And that's kind of how I've enjoyed knowing the environments that have been successful.
00:47:45.580
It's been more about the capabilities and less about the outcomes.
00:47:53.040
That really resonates with me because I've been thinking about this concept lately is
00:47:57.140
some might say, oh, well, Ryan's a good podcaster.
00:48:01.840
I've been doing it long enough that I feel like I am.
00:48:04.040
But more than that, podcasting is just a skill.
00:48:10.320
If you have the technology and you've done it enough, you can be great.
00:48:15.780
And the way I show up in a podcast ready to have a conversation, prepared, having the
00:48:19.780
right guest on, having the right technology, I translate that to being a father and wrapping
00:48:28.960
It's about doing it the best that you can with thoughtfulness and intent behind it.
00:48:33.320
And you can apply that to podcasting, wrapping Christmas presents, driving down the road,
00:48:38.820
It really doesn't matter what you're doing at that point, because it's about the way
00:48:49.020
You know, so committing to the way is certainly a big part of mastery.
00:48:54.520
To go back to one thing that we were talking quite a bit earlier was caring about what the
00:49:00.620
right people think of you, because it's not just not caring what anybody thinks.
00:49:05.300
And sometimes you hear that misinterpretation of this, because I care what my kids think
00:49:13.740
I care about what men listening to this podcast think of me, because I want them to be influenced
00:49:21.640
Is there a litmus test or some sort of something that you run things through to determine who
00:49:28.720
Yeah, it's not who's important, it's more like whose opinion rises above and matters
00:49:37.280
So I needed to make it really simple, because I struggled with much of what you and I have
00:49:43.200
I've struggled with it, meaning that I lived that obsessed performance-based life.
00:49:48.720
Like, I understand that loneliness that comes with the depression and anxiety.
00:49:54.260
And so I was so over-indexed on the external appreciation for who I was that I lost my own
00:50:13.700
And to have a seat at that table, there's two variables that needed to take place.
00:50:19.920
One, they needed to have done something in their life, been out there, fully committed
00:50:25.740
to it, laid a bet, you know, understand the amphitheater of risk.
00:50:30.540
The second is that they need to have demonstrated time under tension with me, that they have
00:50:35.560
invested in caring about me, and in return, or not necessarily in return, as well as I
00:50:43.600
So there's time under tension, and they know my scar tissues and dreams and hopes.
00:50:54.500
And right outside that eight, there's another 12 chairs.
00:50:59.660
You know, for me, I just needed to make it really simple.
00:51:03.160
I mean, this is why you've referenced the military a couple of times now, somebody in
00:51:13.520
And they've been in some hard shit, life-altering shit with you.
00:51:19.120
Like, that's somebody that should have a seat at your table.
00:51:23.040
One of the folks at my table, he's an operator, retired operator, a SEALs operator.
00:51:44.220
And kind of in an imaginary sense, oftentimes, I think, you know, what would he do?
00:51:51.600
And when I'm like, kind of confused about something, I do give him a ring.
00:51:55.400
So it doesn't need to be somebody that you see every day.
00:51:58.100
It doesn't have to be because you love your parents.
00:52:02.920
So at least for me, that table is a bit of a sanctuary.
00:52:09.320
Are there, when you talk about that table, I mean, clearly you're not talking about a
00:52:12.820
literal table where you all sit down and have conversations or whatever on a regular basis.
00:52:17.280
But is there, are there questions that you should be asking of these individuals to
00:52:23.580
determine if they're as interested or vested in having that type of relationship as you
00:52:29.220
That, that you mean the time under tension bit?
00:52:32.900
Time under tension, just, just having a relationship with them, more of an accountability
00:52:37.200
relationship or that they know that you count them among your trusted advisors.
00:52:42.320
Well, for me, it's the relationship would, it would, it would make sense.
00:52:48.160
And whether, whether they know or not that they're at the eight is immaterial.
00:52:55.240
This is not, there's a feeling and a contour to it that they'd say, oh yeah, I'm part of
00:53:10.360
So it's, there's no like, hey, will you take a seat at the table with me?
00:53:17.900
I've never explicitly, I've never explicitly told these eight.
00:53:22.360
I just, I have a lot of guys who will ask, you know, for, for example, with mentorship,
00:53:27.440
And that might be more of a transactional relationship, right?
00:53:29.940
You hire a mentor, you hire a coach, you hire somebody who can help you accomplish whatever
00:53:38.660
A mentor, one of my mentors is at the eight, but it's not, he's known me since I was 15.
00:53:50.640
I've never had to look, but I've had some really cool mentors.
00:53:57.700
I have hired coaches and things like that for specific tasks.
00:54:00.800
But what I would suggest is that you find somebody who is accomplishing one of two things where
00:54:09.120
Mine is they're either accomplishing what it is that you want to accomplish, or they have
00:54:14.360
a track record of helping other people accomplish what you want to accomplish.
00:54:19.440
And if, and it has to be that you have to throw that second one in there because you could
00:54:24.600
take Bill Belichick, for example, since we were talking about him earlier, like he's not
00:54:30.580
going to be the greatest quarterback of all time, but he coached the greatest quarterback
00:54:36.900
So is he, is he worth considering as a, as a mentor, if you want to be a great quarterback?
00:54:42.700
Even though he's not actively doing the thing, he has a history of being able to perform and
00:54:48.900
The person has to also want to be interested in you, you know, like, I mean, it's transactional
00:54:56.120
if you're paying them, if they've done it for other people or they're further down the
00:55:04.640
I don't know that those both sound, those both to me sound like, um, either it's transactional
00:55:10.780
or the person is like, man, I would love to spend time with you too.
00:55:15.580
Like I see me in you and I'd love to be able to help however I can.
00:55:20.620
Most people that are, if you're trying to get closer to somebody that's doing the thing
00:55:24.800
that you want to do, they're going to try to figure out how to fold you into what they're
00:55:31.320
And so that might be good, but like, we don't help our competitors like that benevolently.
00:55:38.020
So if you're the mentee or the mentor, like, how does this work for me?
00:55:42.740
If I'm learning something that I want to learn about maybe AI and you're closer to AI, great.
00:55:49.960
That sounds fun, but that is transactional too.
00:55:53.300
So I I'm less interested in people in my, I'm less interested in mentorship relative to
00:55:59.740
achievement because I'm more interested in like, what are the capabilities?
00:56:05.200
Like that person that's really happy and there's a vibe and like, and I can bring some sort
00:56:12.360
of role to their life and they're bringing some sort of role to my life that is as meaning
00:56:18.520
So whether it's happiness or joy, or I just fill in the blanks.
00:56:23.740
I think it gets tricky when it's, I think you got to pay for that.
00:56:34.760
I mean, it's, I have coaches that I hire and that's the extent of our relationship.
00:56:40.100
I hire you, you teach me how to do X, Y, and Z, and I pay you whatever we agreed upon.
00:56:47.320
As long as we both know, Hey, this is a transactional relationship.
00:56:51.420
And then I have, like you, I have a small group of men who I can call on a moment's notice
00:57:04.000
They know all my stuff and they're free to share with me what needs to be shared, even
00:57:13.220
What was the, what was that wildly successful soccer TV show?
00:57:24.140
So, you know, when they would close the door and they would have their little council meetings,
00:57:28.260
those are like, if you can find a group of men in this case that, um, you can have those
00:57:36.700
real honest conversations with, they're so good.
00:57:39.920
You know, sometimes the one-on-one is, um, magic.
00:57:43.680
And sometimes the six men in a room is like, uh, really special.
00:57:48.440
So I don't know, it's rare to get that at work environments, but that's one of the things
00:57:54.160
You know, it's one of the things I'm not with a pro team right now.
00:57:56.580
It's one of the things I miss most is the relationship with the coaches, you know, solving
00:58:05.340
Well, Michael, I appreciate the discussion and conversation today.
00:58:08.960
If you saw me with my eyes down is because I was taking notes and, and I, uh, I'm actually
00:58:14.340
in a, in a good position to be mentored by men like you and so many others.
00:58:18.200
So I've got so many different notes, but, uh, it's been good.
00:58:25.000
No, it's just fun to be a learner in life, you know?
00:58:31.500
Can you tell the guys where to connect with you, learn a little bit more about what you're
00:58:34.880
doing and then pick up a copy of the first rule of mastery?
00:58:48.000
And the third is, um, we're on all the social media stuff.
00:58:55.280
But the, um, the, the, the most interesting way is that we've taken best practices from high
00:59:00.680
performing sport and we've brought those best practices into business, how to switch on
00:59:05.020
your culture, how to train the psychological skills of people inside that culture.
00:59:09.020
And so that's where I've, I've, I spend most of my time is helping people in corporate
00:59:16.420
And so all of that's on online finding mastery.com.
00:59:21.740
Michael, I appreciate you and your work and your books and, uh, taking some time to join
00:59:28.500
The way you ask the questions really, really appreciate this time.
00:59:39.360
As you know, if you've been following for any amount of time, I take copious notes.
00:59:43.200
I've got thousands and thousands of words and pages and documents on all the notes that
00:59:48.460
And if you're in the position to do this, I hope you take notes as well.
00:59:51.260
If not, I would just recommend picking up a copy of his newest book, which is called
00:59:56.540
Stop worrying about what other people think of you highly, highly recommend that one.
01:00:02.560
Uh, make sure to take a screenshot right now, take a screenshot, post it up, tag Michael
01:00:07.940
Gervais, tag myself, uh, tag order of men, let people know what you're listening to.
01:00:14.700
Cause I hear from them every day who want this information, who need these resources, who
01:00:20.420
And if you have a tool that I think we can allow others to see what that is so that they
01:00:32.820
It's open until January 7th, order of man.com slash iron council.
01:00:36.600
And if you're in the market for a beautifully handcrafted made in America knife, then go check
01:00:41.780
out Montana knife company.com and use the code order of man.
01:00:46.000
All right, gentlemen, those are your marching orders for today.
01:00:48.720
We will be back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action, stop
01:00:55.120
worrying about what other people think of you and become a man.
01:01:00.540
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.
01:01:03.400
You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
01:01:07.520
We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.