Order of Man - MICHAEL GERVAIS ｜ Get Over What Others Think of You

00:00:00.000 Fear keeps most men from pursuing meaningful and fulfilling opportunities in life, whether

00:00:05.040 romantic or a business startup, having a hard conversation, asking for a promotion or the

00:00:10.380 sale, et cetera.

00:00:11.780 But it really isn't what we think it is, the fear of failure.

00:00:15.580 More often than not, it's the fear of what others may think about us and that potential

00:00:20.620 failure that keeps us from going after what we desire.

00:00:24.080 My guest today is Dr. Michael Gervais, a psychologist who studies mastery and what keeps us

00:00:29.920 from obtaining it.

00:00:31.400 In fact, he's worked with Super Bowl champions, Olympic gold medalists, and some of the most

00:00:35.420 elite performers in the world.

00:00:37.760 Today, we discuss FOPO, which is fear of people's opinions, the first rule of mastery, why we

00:00:43.740 care so much about what others think, how we over-index approval as a necessary part of

00:00:49.560 tribe building, and the dangers in being a one-dimensional man.

00:00:54.400 You're a man of action.

00:00:55.700 You live life to the fullest.

00:00:57.180 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:59.920 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:04.580 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:09.620 This is your life.

00:01:10.720 This is who you are.

00:01:12.140 This is who you will become.

00:01:13.860 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:19.000 Gentlemen, what is going on today?

00:01:20.620 My name is Ryan Mickler.

00:01:21.920 I'm the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement.

00:01:24.580 And here, we're giving you the tools and the framework, resources, and conversations that

00:01:29.500 you need to thrive as a husband, business owner, father, community leader, coach, mentor,

00:01:35.420 employee, boss, et cetera, et cetera.

00:01:38.100 However you are showing up in life, I want to give you everything that you need.

00:01:41.460 And as we roll into 2024 to become the premier podcast for men's resources and helping them

00:01:49.020 achieve whatever it is they're after.

00:01:51.320 And we do that primarily through this podcast.

00:01:53.080 And I've had guys like Jocko Willink and Terry Cruz, Tim Tebow, Tim Kennedy, Andy Frisilla,

00:01:59.580 Matthew McConaughey, Ben Shapiro.

00:02:01.060 We have a very wide and diverse range of men with differing opinions and ideas and thoughts

00:02:05.540 all come onto this podcast to share and impart some of their hard earned wisdom with us so

00:02:10.700 that we can learn and don't have to learn it the hard way.

00:02:12.720 So I'm glad you're here.

00:02:14.160 I'm going to get into it very shortly.

00:02:15.980 Before I do, I just want to mention my friends up in Montana.

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00:03:06.200 All right, let me introduce you to my guest.

00:03:07.840 His name, again, is Dr. Michael Gervais.

00:03:09.680 He's a high-performance psychologist.

00:03:11.600 He's a national best-selling author and really one of the world's leading experts on the

00:03:16.640 relationship between our mind and human performance.

00:03:20.140 And over the course of a 20-year career, he's worked with world-class performers and

00:03:25.260 organizations and developed a framework for the mental skills and practices that allow

00:03:31.780 organizations to thrive in really pressure-packed environments.

00:03:37.840 He's the author of The First Rule of Mastery, Stop Worrying About What Other People Think of

00:03:42.280 and has been nationally recognized as an optimal human performance coach.

00:03:48.280 He's been on NBC, ABC, Fox, CNN, ESPN, all the acronyms, all the networks.

00:03:54.480 And he holds a doctorate degree in psychology where he specializes in sports performance

00:03:58.420 and a master's degree in kinesiology.

00:04:00.940 This guy knows what he's talking about.

00:04:02.940 He works with high performers and he is going to help us do the same.

00:04:06.980 Michael, what's going on, brother?

00:04:10.380 So great to see you again.

00:04:12.260 Yeah, it's good to see you as well.

00:04:14.400 It sounds like things are moving with your latest book that you hit the top 10 list.

00:04:20.220 Is that right?

00:04:21.620 Yeah.

00:04:22.000 I mean, on USA Today and we were hoping to make the list, let alone be number 10 out of

00:04:29.100 like 100 and something.

00:04:30.120 So we're super stoked on it.

00:04:32.600 Yeah.

00:04:32.860 What do you attribute that?

00:04:34.400 I mean, obviously the book resonates with people.

00:04:37.340 So obviously the book for guys that don't know is the first rule of mastery.

00:04:41.400 But what do you think that resonates so deeply with the guys and why this book as opposed

00:04:47.280 to, because I know you've written other books and other works, but sometimes something just

00:04:50.900 clicks, right?

00:04:53.120 Yeah.

00:04:53.300 So I wrote an article.

00:04:54.580 This is a little bit of a, maybe a clever way to think about if somebody wanted to write

00:04:59.760 a book that I accidentally backed into the strategy.

00:05:02.400 But I wrote an article for Harvard Business Press and they called me 12 months later and

00:05:08.460 they said, hey, you touched a nerve.

00:05:10.500 You were the number one downloaded article for 12 months in a row.

00:05:14.620 And so it was like an easy way to figure out like, is that concept working or not?

00:05:20.780 That's not why I wrote the article.

00:05:22.300 I wrote the article because like it was something I struggled with, this idea of obsessively worrying

00:05:28.340 about what people thought of me and it was something that got in my way of me being free

00:05:33.920 as a human.

00:05:35.160 And so I just wrote this article about, and I had fun with the title about FOPO, Fear

00:05:39.880 People's Opinions.

00:05:40.980 And I just, I tagged it that it's one of the greatest constrictors of human potential,

00:05:45.600 this excessive worry about what people think of you.

00:05:48.240 And I just talked about the narrative, you know, like why so many of us have it, I think,

00:05:54.520 and especially in elite performing environments and ways to potentially kind of work through

00:05:59.760 it.

00:06:00.100 And it touched a nerve.

00:06:01.100 And so we said, let's, let's figure out what the science behind it is.

00:06:03.880 And we wrote a book on it.

00:06:05.220 So, yeah, no, I think that's a great way to do it.

00:06:07.500 I've actually had similar things happen by accident where, you know, I might make a social

00:06:11.780 media post and it, and it just takes off or even a podcast title or something.

00:06:17.360 And it blows up and you think, okay, well, there's something deeper here that we need

00:06:20.380 to have a conversation about.

00:06:22.120 I think you're right about it.

00:06:23.940 Yep.

00:06:24.640 I think you're right about fear of people's opinions.

00:06:27.440 This is one of the most commonly asked questions, whether it's directly that way or in a roundabout

00:06:33.440 way.

00:06:33.800 And I see so much fear and everybody knows like, oh, what's your, what the fear is holding

00:06:38.620 so many people back, but what they don't realize, it's not the fear of the thing itself or even

00:06:43.320 failure, at least in my mind, it's the fear of what other people will think about your potential

00:06:48.160 failure.

00:06:49.200 That's exactly it.

00:06:50.600 You know, and even working with folks that operate in highly rugged environments, sometimes

00:06:56.380 consequential environments.

00:06:57.760 And let me just frame that early in my career, I spent time in pro sport.

00:07:01.780 Then I left and I went into highly consequential environments where people make mistakes, people

00:07:09.960 die, potentially.

00:07:11.220 Like it was, it was Red Bull Stratos where Felix Baumgartner jumped from 120,000 feet, 130,000

00:07:17.860 feet, special operators, pilots, you know, Air Force pilots, fighter jet pilots, da, da, da,

00:07:25.180 da.

00:07:25.280 And so then I went back to pro sport and I went back to 10 years with the Seattle Seahawks.

00:07:31.580 And so there's some ruggedness in football, but not really all that consequential.

00:07:36.720 And so whether it's a rugged environment or consequential environment or more a metallic,

00:07:41.480 like, I mean, basketball is not all that rugged, nor is it all that consequential.

00:07:46.660 So it's more like this, um, metallic excellence feeling.

00:07:50.440 Like you can strive without having ankles and knees, uh, warranted, but you know, it just

00:07:55.600 has a different fear than football in the back country, if you will.

00:07:57.960 So in those environments, people, um, consistently talk about not wanting to blow it, not wanting

00:08:05.040 to look bad in the consequential environments.

00:08:07.180 It is like, I don't want to die and I don't want other people to die because of my mistakes.

00:08:11.100 So those environments, I just kind of hold in high esteem that they're just a little

00:08:15.640 different, but for the rest of us, for the rest of us that are not operating in those 0.99

00:08:21.340 amphitheaters, um, it really is like not wanting to let people down, look stupid, blow it, you 0.99

00:08:27.320 know, um, be a lame team member, fill in the blank. 0.99

00:08:30.520 So it really is about the opinions I think of others.

00:08:33.640 And it's the, it's the water that we're swimming in and we haven't, I don't know, at least in

00:08:38.180 my lifetime, no one really pointed it out so directly to me.

00:08:41.380 So I thought that I was just kind of the weird one that was over indexing on, um, approval

00:08:48.640 and fearing rejection.

00:08:50.320 And that come to find out there's some real brain mechanism that goes back hundreds of

00:08:55.160 thousands of years about why that is so important.

00:08:57.840 Um, even in modern times.

00:09:00.180 Yeah, that's actually where I was going to go with it.

00:09:02.220 I mean, I have, I have theories, you have data and science.

00:09:04.580 I guess my theory is we don't want to be ostracized from the tribe, which goes back tens

00:09:09.280 of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years.

00:09:11.140 That's my thought anyways, does, does the data support that?

00:09:15.900 A hundred percent.

00:09:16.380 Cause if you and I were in a tribe and, you know, we were trusted to do something and

00:09:21.160 we came back empty handed over and over again, maybe three, four times, and we're kind of

00:09:26.540 disruptive to the culture.

00:09:27.900 So not only are we coming back empty handed, letting people down, but we're kind of knuckleheads

00:09:32.380 at some point elders say, look, you're on warning now.

00:09:37.180 This keeps up.

00:09:38.560 You're going to, you're going to have to be, you're going to have to fend for yourself.

00:09:41.100 You're out of this tribe.

00:09:42.980 And so rejection was a near death sentence because trying to figure out how to fight,

00:09:49.720 forge, fend, hunt and gather all by ourselves was too much.

00:09:53.460 The wild's too big, you know, and we'd be, you know, taken advantage of by the wildebeest

00:09:57.940 or warring tribes or just mother nature in general, obviously that near death sentence 0.98

00:10:03.620 was so such a big driver that 200,000 years forward to modern times, like we're still

00:10:09.980 scanning to see if we're okay in the eyes of others.

00:10:14.100 And in modern times, like, you know, if the tribe kicks us out, there's other tribes, like

00:10:19.620 that's not, that's not the real problem.

00:10:21.480 The problem right now is like people's opinion actually does hold power and some people's

00:10:29.920 opinion hold great power, like your supervisor, like your college entrance, you know, whatever

00:10:39.540 it's called, if you're trying to get into college, I'm blanking on the name, admissions

00:10:42.340 of office, I'm sorry.

00:10:43.940 So some people hold great power and other people, we just reflexively give them that power.

00:10:49.460 And that's where it starts to get really wonky.

00:10:52.920 Who, whose opinions matter and whose don't.

00:10:56.260 And when you can decouple those two things, there is a more freedom on the other side of

00:11:01.340 it.

00:11:01.700 And there's a bunch of other ways to find a bit more freedom around this, but that

00:11:05.080 is definitely one of them.

00:11:06.900 I actually want to talk about whose opinions matter, but before I do, it's, it's interesting

00:11:11.460 to me.

00:11:13.200 It's a bit ironic that we're so worried about being part of the tribe that in order to avoid

00:11:18.600 being ostracized from the tribe, we'll actually isolate ourselves from the tribe or from the

00:11:23.820 opinions of other people.

00:11:25.100 And we won't engage and we won't surround ourselves with people because we don't want

00:11:29.220 to lose something that we don't actually currently have.

00:11:33.400 So you're, there's, you're picking up on something really cool.

00:11:36.760 And so there's three phases to FOPO and again, fear of people's opinions, right?

00:11:42.960 This great constrictor of going for it in life.

00:11:47.260 So there's three phases.

00:11:48.460 There's the anticipatory phase where like you're in your closet worrying about what, you know,

00:11:53.780 what you're going to pick out and wear for later.

00:11:55.460 And that sounds, maybe that sounds like trite, but if you just use that idea that you're,

00:12:01.280 you're planning and shaping yourself for an event later, because you really want to show

00:12:08.720 right for them as opposed to, you know, be about it, be you, you know, drop your hips in

00:12:14.080 a way that it's like, you're in it fully and you're a great partner to other people, but

00:12:18.880 like you really are owning your body of work, owning your history.

00:12:23.820 Okay. So that's a different way of going through it.

00:12:25.980 So anticipation.

00:12:27.840 And then the second is when you're actually in the environment with the other person that

00:12:31.460 you have given this power to, that their opinion matters so much that we are highly

00:12:37.500 tuned at micro expressions.

00:12:40.320 So we're checking.

00:12:41.600 So it's anticipation, anticipation, then checking.

00:12:44.720 And in that checking phase, we're just seeing if we're okay.

00:12:48.620 We're looking for the way that they squint, the way that they laugh, smile, nod, you know,

00:12:53.800 how do they hold themselves with the tone and contour of their voice.

00:12:57.340 And we're checking to see if we're about to be rejected or if we're okay, we're safe in

00:13:03.000 the middle of acceptance.

00:13:04.440 And that leads to the third phase, which is how we respond when they give us some kind

00:13:09.180 of hint that we might not be enough according to them.

00:13:12.060 And there's five types of response.

00:13:15.780 We start to conform.

00:13:17.800 So it's mild, but we start to ship, you know, shape shift just a little bit.

00:13:22.460 We'll laugh at a joke.

00:13:23.520 We don't know.

00:13:24.460 We'll pretend like, you know, we're drinking something, even though we don't want to drink,

00:13:28.820 we don't want to be the weird one.

00:13:30.400 You know, we'll say that we know that movie, but we never watched it.

00:13:33.520 We pull out our phone to show like we're busy.

00:13:36.020 You know, like that's small little adjustments that take place.

00:13:39.460 We'll contort sometimes.

00:13:41.100 We'll flat out laugh at an offensive joke, fill in the blanks.

00:13:44.680 And then it goes to your point that we'll straight out disconnect from people because

00:13:49.600 it's too much.

00:13:50.940 Like having to, you know, having to bend to their approval is so overwhelming that we say,

00:13:57.560 not for me.

00:13:58.380 And we pull out of that relationship.

00:14:00.760 And so that is one of the five ways that we do respond when it feels too much.

00:14:05.320 How do you avoid misinterpreting that, those checking type cues?

00:14:09.700 Because I've had situations where I might assume somebody's thinking one thing and then

00:14:14.560 I'll respond based on what I interpret and I could be completely off.

00:14:19.260 For example, somebody might be rude to me and then I'll respond by either being rude back

00:14:25.380 or ignoring them or just moving on, but they weren't actually being rude.

00:14:28.800 They were just having a bad day.

00:14:31.420 Yeah.

00:14:31.900 So, so you're picking up on that.

00:14:35.220 We hit the science in the book, which is, and I don't have the exact numbers, but there

00:14:41.380 was a study that was done and they took a look at life partners, like over 15 years and people

00:14:48.180 that strangers.

00:14:49.140 And the idea was try to guess what the other person's thinking and they would give them

00:14:53.400 some sort of stimulus to, to get it right.

00:14:55.600 And even life partners, like people that are supposed to be able to finish each other's

00:14:59.360 sentences were terrible, terrible at this game.

00:15:03.280 Right.

00:15:03.480 And so like, yeah.

00:15:04.660 So again, even the person, you know, best, we're not good there at guessing what they're

00:15:11.160 thinking.

00:15:11.520 So the best strategy, according to the research is to do the most obvious, which is to ask,

00:15:18.400 what are your thoughts on this?

00:15:20.760 Hey, it looks like you're not vibing with what I just said.

00:15:23.260 Like, is that right?

00:15:24.620 Oh no.

00:15:25.040 Sorry.

00:15:25.260 I had something in my eye or, you know, what gave you that opinion?

00:15:29.220 Well, you're frowning.

00:15:30.160 Oh, well, actually I was, my eyes are kind of whatever and I'm, I need, I need to get

00:15:36.000 them checked.

00:15:36.500 Whatever the issue is, we are really unskilled at guessing what another person's thoughts

00:15:43.160 are.

00:15:43.960 Micro expressions and expressions give an hint, give a hint or a look, but it's not the full

00:15:50.860 mechanism of what's actually happening inside a person.

00:15:54.120 So just ask sounds so simple, but it does require a bit of deference to say, I'd like

00:16:02.300 to hear your thoughts on that too.

00:16:03.880 You know, like there's a little bit of deference in it.

00:16:05.880 So we tend to play it cool rather than be accurate with what's actually happening.

00:16:11.440 I like that open-ended statement.

00:16:12.680 I'd like to hear your thoughts because I think sometimes if you do ask a person that, that

00:16:18.420 could be threatening to a person that you're asking if they are feeling awkward or uncomfortable

00:16:22.360 or some sort of something towards you and they'll, they'll lie.

00:16:26.680 They'll say, oh no, I'm fine.

00:16:27.500 I mean, a wife, for example, might do that all the time. 1.00

00:16:30.040 You ask what's wrong.

00:16:30.680 She's like, I'm fine.

00:16:31.660 You know, she's not fine.

00:16:33.640 So, so how do you determine or work through some of that?

00:16:38.380 Well, you know what fine stands for, right?

00:16:40.500 What is a freaked out, insecure, neurotic and something else?

00:16:44.820 I don't know the other one.

00:16:45.740 Am I right?

00:16:46.520 Yeah.

00:16:46.920 Yeah.

00:16:47.260 That's it.

00:16:47.680 You know, so like this idea, like I'm fine.

00:16:49.680 Well, you've got to be able to read that.

00:16:51.160 I'm like, no, I'm good.

00:16:52.860 No.

00:16:53.840 Why did you think that?

00:16:55.160 Like, or whatever, like there's a different way of fine as opposed to, no, I'm, I'm really

00:17:00.380 okay.

00:17:01.460 So fine is a trigger word in my relationship as well.

00:17:04.680 You know, so I know I need to double click like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:17:08.380 So what I do when, when that happens, when somebody kind of puts up a, like a, an emblem,

00:17:14.060 they say one thing, but they mean another or whatever.

00:17:16.540 And I, instead of like double clicking in an aggressive way, I disengage in a way that's

00:17:23.300 like, I create more space.

00:17:24.320 Like, and so I use playfulness in that, in that moment, like, whoa, okay.

00:17:28.700 Okay.

00:17:29.040 Okay.

00:17:29.680 And it just kind of takes the piss out of it enough to, to breathe some space into it.

00:17:35.120 And, um, so if you can, if you have the presence to not get sucked in, but to actually create

00:17:41.820 space, I think you end up figuring out how to do better in just about any relationship,

00:17:46.600 but that requires awareness that requires being non-reactive that requires some discipline

00:17:52.740 and some sophistication and how you work with your own thoughts, how well you are, um, aware

00:18:00.580 of tripwires and we all have them and it's the ones that are undisciplined that are reflexively

00:18:06.840 flying off the handle or getting pissed off or agitated or irritated when somebody, a person

00:18:13.260 that you do not control, there's nobody in this world that we control and God forbid they

00:18:18.780 say something that is, um, orthogonal or antagonistic or, um, whatever to how we want it to go.

00:18:26.560 Um, so we got to do a little better, dude, like, and, and it does, it does, it does require

00:18:32.320 some discipline and creating more space.

00:18:35.260 Um, and there's a whole set of practices to be able to do that.

00:18:38.800 I think what I've experienced when somebody says I'm fine or, you know, something like

00:18:44.700 that to, to try to brush it off.

00:18:46.600 What comes up for me naturally is a lot of insecurity.

00:18:49.400 Oh, they must be thinking something negatively about me.

00:18:52.540 And then, you know, you start to respond in a way that does, it's not conducive to a healthy

00:18:56.620 relationship.

00:18:57.940 Uh, and, and I think it takes some level of integrity doing what, you know, you need to

00:19:02.240 be doing.

00:19:02.860 And then, like you said, having the space and, and the confidence to be able to say, okay,

00:19:09.600 like that's good.

00:19:11.560 I'm glad you're feeling okay.

00:19:12.720 If something changes or whatever else, let me know.

00:19:14.660 And then just driving on, but insecure people can't do that because they make other people's

00:19:19.240 problems all about themselves.

00:19:20.780 It's more of a selfish approach than a selfless approach.

00:19:23.720 I think, at least that's what I've experienced personally.

00:19:26.980 Yeah.

00:19:27.160 There's a, there's a, um, like people that are struggling or suffering in some level of

00:19:36.440 pain in their life.

00:19:37.260 So there's three basic bands, right?

00:19:39.260 Thriving, struggling, suffering people that are struggling or suffering.

00:19:43.100 Um, they just like a, a, a wounded animal, you know, caught in a trap or something they're,

00:19:50.000 they're supposed to figure out how to take care of themselves, right?

00:19:53.540 Because they're in pain, they're struggling or even suffering.

00:19:56.820 So it makes sense that they would think about themselves before other people, whether you're

00:20:02.000 a narcissist that looks like you're thriving, but you're actually just taking care of your

00:20:05.980 original pain that took place in your life early on, you know, thank you, mom and dad

00:20:10.960 or whatever it was.

00:20:12.280 Um, or, you know, you're flat out anxious, uh, um, uh, in some other kind of way and fill

00:20:20.400 in the blank depression, all the other maladies that we do wrestle down.

00:20:23.180 So, so when somebody is struggling, they need, they say, how am I, am I okay?

00:20:28.660 But when somebody is up above the line thriving, they say, are we okay?

00:20:32.920 And so the we versus the I is one way to think about, um, how you reflexively respond to something

00:20:39.560 that doesn't feel right.

00:20:41.080 And then I'll add one more context.

00:20:43.180 If the, if the reflex is, are we okay, but you're coming from a place of weakness because

00:20:48.840 you've, your happiness depends on their happiness.

00:20:52.020 We call that technically codependency.

00:20:54.100 If you're, if you're reflecting from that standpoint, it's, it's not above the line

00:20:59.020 really.

00:20:59.560 So it's masquerading like it's above the line.

00:21:01.640 Hey, we good.

00:21:02.460 Are we okay?

00:21:03.460 Like your relationship matters.

00:21:05.140 Our friendship matters.

00:21:05.880 Like, is everything cool is different than dancing underneath in an anxious way, presenting

00:21:12.800 like I care about our relationship, but I'm really just trying to take care of myself. 0.98

00:21:16.720 Like shit, if we're not okay, I'm not okay. 0.99

00:21:19.380 Cause that's what codependency is. 1.00

00:21:20.560 So you can think about it above the line and below the line in that respect.

00:21:24.540 Um, and I think we feel it.

00:21:27.260 We need to know if we are above the line and below the line and we can feel it with other

00:21:31.580 people as well.

00:21:32.840 Yeah.

00:21:33.220 I like that distinction and it's not about the verbiage.

00:21:35.920 It's about the energy behind it.

00:21:37.680 When you say, Hey, like, is everything okay?

00:21:39.840 Are we okay?

00:21:40.460 That could mean like, Hey, we're good.

00:21:43.060 Like you said, or it can mean reassure me.

00:21:45.240 I need you to reassure me that I'm okay.

00:21:47.220 Yeah.

00:21:47.520 Right.

00:21:48.060 That's right.

00:21:48.480 And that's different in your eyes.

00:21:50.000 Yeah.

00:21:50.160 Yeah, exactly.

00:21:50.940 Exactly.

00:21:51.000 Right.

00:21:51.600 Yeah.

00:21:52.020 Different energy.

00:21:53.900 I get tired around those folks.

00:21:56.940 So codependency, people, pleasers like, yeah, I'm just, I get fatigued by it.

00:22:01.360 And it's a relationship that unless they make some changes, um, like some real changes,

00:22:08.060 growth between the two people usually doesn't happen.

00:22:13.480 So those are relationships I just can't be in.

00:22:16.540 So, I mean, I, I think it reeks of desperation when somebody is doing that.

00:22:20.180 And, and I've been there.

00:22:21.360 Everybody has guys listening to this have been desperate for a romantic relationship or

00:22:25.720 relationship with somebody else or a boss or a client or whatever.

00:22:28.400 However, how do you, I mean, this is a very broad question, but how does somebody who has

00:22:33.760 some level of desperation there below the line, how do they begin to shore that up so

00:22:40.240 that they don't, they don't have as much of a vested interest in what other people think

00:22:44.960 of them?

00:22:46.820 Yeah.

00:22:47.000 So, I mean, a couple hundred year old science of psychology is rad and we have tabooed it.

00:22:54.300 We've weakened it.

00:22:55.160 We have shamed it.

00:22:56.460 We've made it for the week. 1.00

00:22:57.400 It's, that's just fucking bullshit, dude. 1.00

00:22:59.900 It's the most extraordinary thinkers and doers on the planet. 1.00

00:23:03.340 Pull me into rooms faster than the second tier because they're really on a mission.

00:23:09.140 They understand that they've got to be their very best.

00:23:12.240 They want that.

00:23:13.420 They've got a real purpose in line and like they're about it.

00:23:18.140 And so what they're looking for is how to work from the inside out.

00:23:23.300 That's all psychology is.

00:23:24.980 It's the study of yourself.

00:23:26.600 How do your thoughts and emotions work?

00:23:28.780 How does thought one and thought two, you know, configure into thought three and how

00:23:33.160 does thought one, two, and three shape emotion A or B?

00:23:36.520 Like if you don't know how that's working, you are by definition whipped around by the

00:23:41.400 external world.

00:23:42.260 The most powerful people on the planet, they decide how they're going to go through an experience.

00:23:48.160 They work from the inside out.

00:23:50.240 They are not about to let the external world dictate their internal experience.

00:23:55.980 And so they've done enough internal work to be about it, whatever it is, whatever values

00:24:00.600 or virtues or purpose that they're standing for, they're going to be about it.

00:24:05.240 And that takes incredible mental awareness, psychological awareness, and it takes incredible

00:24:10.460 psychological skill because the trade winds outside of us are pretty radical sometimes.

00:24:17.600 Like people have power, you know, and there are things on the line that are costly when

00:24:23.600 mistakes are made.

00:24:25.420 And it is reflexively so much easier just to belong.

00:24:29.720 There's safety in belonging.

00:24:31.240 There's safety in being in the center of the pack.

00:24:33.240 That's not where potential is expressed.

00:24:34.960 That's not where growth happens.

00:24:37.180 And so if we don't invest in our own mind, our brain will win.

00:24:42.800 And so the brain is the tissue that's kind of running the program, the 3.2 pounds of tissue

00:24:47.680 that sits in our skull.

00:24:48.800 And the mind is a bit like the software that, if strong enough, operates to run the hardware.

00:24:55.020 But if your mind is not elevated, invested in, upgraded, trained, the brain wins.

00:25:02.000 So it's all about safety and survival.

00:25:03.880 Yeah, it's that, uh, what are the, the, the lizard brain or whatever they call it, which

00:25:08.200 is the, uh, the, uh, the early versions of our brain, you know, before we were able to

00:25:14.300 process thought and emotion the way that we can today.

00:25:17.500 That's right.

00:25:18.420 The, the question I have though, is there, are there certain tactics or practices that

00:25:23.800 somebody could implement in order to become more aware and work from the inside out?

00:25:28.280 For example, uh, journaling has been big for me.

00:25:31.840 And I asked myself in my journal, why, as I have an experience, why do I feel that way?

00:25:36.740 Where does that come from?

00:25:37.920 What, what circumstance or experience did I have that made me believe that was true?

00:25:43.540 Why did I lash out?

00:25:44.780 Why did I respond in a healthy way in this circumstance?

00:25:47.840 That has been a healthy practice for me.

00:25:49.600 Yeah.

00:25:51.540 So, okay.

00:25:52.720 Two-fold.

00:25:53.540 One is what you're pointing to is awareness.

00:25:56.600 So the whole inner game starts with awareness and there's three best practices for awareness.

00:26:03.500 Journaling is one of those three.

00:26:04.880 And it's a forcing function to be honest with yourself, to be honest with your word choice,

00:26:10.560 to be more easily connected to the emotion that those words that you're choosing are calling

00:26:15.740 up.

00:26:16.000 So that's a radical practice.

00:26:19.180 It's not for everybody.

00:26:20.600 You know, some people, their brain and their writing ability are disincopated.

00:26:25.220 So they think faster, they can write.

00:26:27.360 And it becomes like a very frustrating experience.

00:26:30.840 Interesting.

00:26:31.340 Or yeah.

00:26:32.400 So, so there's a disincopation there.

00:26:34.820 The other is sitting and being in conversations with people of wisdom.

00:26:39.080 Now I'm pointing to psychologists.

00:26:41.300 Not all psychologists have wisdom.

00:26:42.420 It could be your, it could be your, your clergy.

00:26:46.000 It could be your priest.

00:26:47.320 It could be the neighborhood wise person.

00:26:49.020 It could be whatever.

00:26:49.840 Right.

00:26:50.080 But sitting across from a person that holds wisdom.

00:26:54.320 And when their focus is orientated in a, from wisdom and they're focusing on you and they

00:27:01.680 are seeing the truth of what you're saying and feeling and doing, or when you're not

00:27:05.600 right, that, that is a radical commitment because those people hold you to the fire.

00:27:11.180 They hold up a mirror.

00:27:12.340 They ask questions.

00:27:14.100 You feel and you think, and they'll take you to the edges in a very short order amount of

00:27:20.140 time.

00:27:20.360 It requires vulnerability and in that requires risk.

00:27:24.100 So that, so that's where I'm sitting across a human that holds wisdom.

00:27:28.440 That's dedicated to listen and to understand you.

00:27:31.620 It's a radical commitment.

00:27:32.920 And the third is meditation a la mindfulness practices, you know, sitting and doing your

00:27:37.480 meditations is a way to become evidence-based and an ancient tradition to become more aware

00:27:42.340 of your own thoughts.

00:27:43.000 And so any emotions.

00:27:44.920 Meditation has always been a struggle for me because I don't really know what it is or what

00:27:49.140 I'm supposed to do.

00:27:50.100 Like, do I just sit there and like, not think, or do I sit there and think about things?

00:27:55.500 You know, do I like, what, what does it mean to be present in the moment?

00:27:59.060 All of these concepts that are kind of hard for me to wrap my, my mind around if I'm being

00:28:04.140 honest about it.

00:28:05.980 It's, it's hard period.

00:28:08.080 It's, it's, it is one of the grounded foundational program or, um, practices to become more aware.

00:28:15.060 There are hundreds of apps out there, brother, like go get one, you know, like there's so

00:28:20.080 many, I'll send you, I'll send you, I've been practicing for 20 some years.

00:28:23.360 I'll send you one of my favorite that, that I pass on to my athletes.

00:28:27.440 Yeah.

00:28:27.980 Please do.

00:28:28.900 Yeah.

00:28:29.480 Yeah.

00:28:29.680 No problems.

00:28:30.220 But is this a daily practice for you?

00:28:32.280 Meditation?

00:28:33.360 20 some years.

00:28:34.480 Yeah.

00:28:34.860 Is that right?

00:28:35.220 Okay.

00:28:35.460 Yeah.

00:28:36.340 Yeah.

00:28:36.820 And it doesn't, I mean, sometimes it's just a handful of breaths.

00:28:41.720 Sometimes it's 20 minutes, you know, so it ranges, but for the more than not, it's better

00:28:45.720 than 10 minutes over the last 20 years.

00:28:47.720 And it's, um, I don't know how I do life without it.

00:28:51.000 I was angry, pissed off and anxious as a kid.

00:28:53.960 And, um, the world does not need a 22 year old like period.

00:28:59.500 And so like, I, I don't know how I would have done it without it.

00:29:03.400 So it helps me understand what's really happening in my own life, in my own head, my own heart.

00:29:10.140 And it's given me more power than I ever thought I would ever be able to attain.

00:29:14.460 So I feel like I'm in control of me better than I ever was.

00:29:17.820 So how do you do it?

00:29:18.580 There's two basic types, right?

00:29:20.380 There's what's called single focused mindfulness.

00:29:22.900 And that's one type.

00:29:24.860 And the other type is called contemplative mindfulness.

00:29:28.640 So let's just start with single point.

00:29:29.860 The single point focus is you set your timer.

00:29:34.440 Let's just say it's for two minutes and all you're going to focus on as if a loved one's

00:29:40.360 life depended on you getting it right was with all of your essence, you focus on your inhale.

00:29:46.600 And then when you reach the top with all of your essence, you focus on your exhale and

00:29:51.780 then rinse and repeat, you know, for two minutes, inhale, exhale, inhale, but with all of your

00:29:56.320 essence.

00:29:56.760 Now, what's going to happen on your inhale, your mind's going to wander away from it.

00:30:00.200 And you're going to say, I don't know, am I doing this right?

00:30:03.280 Just an inhale.

00:30:04.040 That's all I'm supposed to do.

00:30:04.940 So it's all this narrative.

00:30:06.440 And you say, you wink at it.

00:30:08.000 You're like, I see you come back to the task at hand, which is the exhale.

00:30:13.820 Okay.

00:30:14.160 And then your mind goes, I don't know, the laundry list of things you've got to do, or

00:30:17.900 you think about your left butt cheek is now numb or whatever.

00:30:20.780 You're just, you're working with yourself and it's starting over a thousand times.

00:30:26.200 It's refocusing on the task at hand.

00:30:28.420 And what that's training is for you to be in the present moment more often.

00:30:32.360 And when you're in the present moment more often with anything, you have the opportunity

00:30:37.400 to get down to the truth of it.

00:30:39.880 And now you're playing a different game.

00:30:41.840 When you're operating from a real deep source of truth, as opposed to like the surface game,

00:30:46.240 it's a totally different way to going through life and the present moment, it's where high

00:30:51.060 performance happens.

00:30:52.240 So if you're training your mind to be more present, you're going to move up the ladder

00:30:55.160 of consistent high performance.

00:30:57.160 That's how I, you know, that's the, the world I operate in.

00:31:00.500 The second is that it's where all things that are amazing happen.

00:31:04.340 Can I say something about that before you jump into the second form of this?

00:31:07.840 Sure.

00:31:08.580 Please.

00:31:08.900 I've seen this even just recently, just recently physically as I train, you know, I would go

00:31:14.840 through, through a, a workout program kind of haphazardly and, you know, just go through

00:31:19.400 the motions.

00:31:20.440 But when I started to get serious about it, I would think about being under a bar, for

00:31:26.200 example, on a bench press.

00:31:27.440 And I'm not thinking about all of these other things, just get through the workout.

00:31:30.480 I'm thinking about where to put my feet, where my shoulders need to be, how my back

00:31:35.720 needs to be arched, the path of the bar that it needs to follow.

00:31:38.720 So, uh, and it's not, it's not coincidence that my performance increases and I start to

00:31:45.280 see results because I'm present in every little detail of the movement itself, not thinking

00:31:51.900 about what the next movement is or what I have to do later today or any other distractions

00:31:56.400 that could keep me from being focused on that task at hand.

00:32:00.660 That's exactly it.

00:32:01.780 Or is he or she looking at how many plates I have?

00:32:04.240 Like all of that noise, right?

00:32:05.840 Yeah.

00:32:06.040 Right.

00:32:06.360 So, so what you're talking about is being fully present and that's where high performance

00:32:11.980 happens.

00:32:12.700 So meditation is a way to become more present.

00:32:16.080 Allah.

00:32:16.800 Now, when you're in the messiness of life or a performance environment and you've trained

00:32:20.780 yourself to be more present, it's like, it's an exponential opportunity that you're going

00:32:27.100 to be more present in the performance environments that, you know, matter to you.

00:32:30.580 So the other thing, the second point is that, um, it's where everything good happens.

00:32:35.760 It's like, that's where joy and love and laughter and fun.

00:32:39.300 And in the present moment, like you can't get a joke.

00:32:41.980 If you're anxious, you can't, you can't celebrate. 1.00

00:32:45.160 If you're up in your head, you miss, you miss shit. 0.99

00:32:47.880 The third thing is that's where deep wisdom happens. 0.99

00:32:50.520 And deep wisdom is that ability to kind of be like a reclining dragon.

00:32:55.040 You know, like you got all this fire and you, you don't have to, you don't have to snort

00:32:59.220 it.

00:32:59.420 You don't have to, you know, blow fire.

00:33:01.780 Like you just know that you are a badass dragon.

00:33:05.720 And so you can just kind of sit on your hind quarters when you want to.

00:33:09.300 So that's really what wisdom is about.

00:33:11.520 And that's so mindfulness is a practice to increase all three of those.

00:33:17.620 Men, let me step away from the conversation very briefly.

00:33:20.080 I hear from a lot of men who are on the fence about banding with us inside of our exclusive

00:33:24.940 brotherhood, the iron council.

00:33:26.240 Uh, this is for many reasons that they want to join, but they don't.

00:33:30.340 And much of which stems from the topic of this conversation, fear, fear of what these guys

00:33:35.440 may need to do, a fear of what they may need to acknowledge in themselves and fear of looking 0.99

00:33:41.340 stupid in front of other high caliber men. 0.99

00:33:43.860 But let me ask you a question. 1.00

00:33:46.260 If you've been sitting on the fence, is your life better, worse, or the same since you've

00:33:52.700 been thinking about banding with us?

00:33:54.440 I think the answer is not better.

00:33:56.880 And I think that's the answer because in order to improve in your life, you have to do something

00:34:00.840 different than you currently are.

00:34:02.720 Now the fear is real.

00:34:03.660 I don't get into the false evidence appearing real.

00:34:06.700 That's a real visceral response to fear.

00:34:09.020 I get it.

00:34:09.500 I understand.

00:34:10.640 But what you're going to find when you join us is a group of men who are going to work

00:34:15.600 to help you succeed in a proven system to help you do it.

00:34:19.980 So if you're ready to get off the fence, get into the game, do the work and overcome the

00:34:24.140 fear that may be holding you back, then join us at order of man.com slash iron council.

00:34:30.160 We're open currently up until January 7th.

00:34:33.340 So we've got a very short window.

00:34:34.860 Again, that's order of man.com slash iron council.

00:34:37.760 Do it quickly.

00:34:38.280 And we're going to help you crush 2024.

00:34:40.360 Again, order of man.com slash iron council.

00:34:43.080 Right now, we'll get back to it with Michael.

00:34:45.600 How does this relate to the concept of mastery?

00:34:49.860 I mean, you've made a career off of mastery and sometimes I wonder what it is.

00:34:56.340 Is it some level of achievement?

00:34:58.300 You master something, for example, and therefore you've achieved or unlocked something or is

00:35:03.500 mastery more of a process rather than the result of the process?

00:35:10.240 Yeah.

00:35:10.440 High performance and mastery are like cousins, right?

00:35:13.580 Mastery, I would say as an ordering position sits on top of high performance.

00:35:19.240 So high performance is really interested about being able to execute on demand, right?

00:35:23.780 So, and to do it at a very high level.

00:35:26.340 So I can get it done.

00:35:27.700 I can deliver.

00:35:28.800 I can do it at an elite level under complicated conditions.

00:35:34.180 So that's high performance and I'm not interested in peak performance.

00:35:38.140 Never have been.

00:35:38.920 That seems to me like that's crazy that we're trying to peak.

00:35:42.840 I'm interested in sustaining high performance, like a superior elevated state that I'm able

00:35:49.740 to execute at a high level.

00:35:51.200 So, again, across complicated conditions.

00:35:54.780 And so mastery is different.

00:35:57.740 Mastery just has a different contour to it.

00:36:00.820 Mastery is, it's more artistic.

00:36:05.140 So it's a step up.

00:36:06.600 Like, yeah, I can deliver.

00:36:07.600 If I'm a true master, I can deliver across complicated conditions.

00:36:12.040 But there's a shape to it where I'm now more artistic in it.

00:36:17.960 And it's not because I'm interested in the expression of high performance.

00:36:22.500 I'm actually interested in the larger context of how I'm designing my life.

00:36:29.440 And so mastery is a path.

00:36:32.180 It is an expression.

00:36:34.160 It's artistic.

00:36:35.680 You can do it in complicated conditions, meaning when there's duress or stress or pressure or

00:36:40.220 consequence.

00:36:40.620 And then, but it's also committed to mastery of self.

00:36:46.600 So high performers, like you and your whole community knows some really sophisticated performers

00:36:52.320 that you don't really want to have open over for dinner.

00:36:55.880 Like, you like watching them.

00:36:58.100 You like watching what they do.

00:36:59.580 And like, it's fun.

00:37:01.620 But then when they get over to dinner, it's all about them.

00:37:04.640 It's only about the thing that they do.

00:37:07.380 There's an obtuse, narcissistic way about them.

00:37:10.260 They're not really connected to other people.

00:37:12.560 They're not somebody you'd want to get in a foxhole with.

00:37:15.820 But when the lights turn on, they deliver.

00:37:18.800 And they've spent, I don't know, 20,000 hours investing in how to be able to deliver when

00:37:24.000 the lights turn on, you know.

00:37:25.920 So mastery is more about mastery of self and mastery of craft.

00:37:30.060 And there's a different artistic commitment to the way that you're designing your life.

00:37:35.220 And I'm far more interested in mastery than high performance.

00:37:38.760 And so that's just kind of where my evolution has been in my life.

00:37:42.720 Yeah, I've never really heard it explained like that.

00:37:45.400 I was actually watching a video at the gym this morning, or it was highlights of a basketball

00:37:49.880 game last night.

00:37:50.900 And I can't remember who was playing, but it was tied and it went to overtime.

00:37:54.840 And Steph Curry, eventually somebody passed the ball to Steph Curry, which is a good bet.

00:37:59.560 I mean, it's a safe bet for sure.

00:38:02.120 And for sure.

00:38:03.460 Passed it.

00:38:04.080 And he had, I mean, a split second to make this shot before the defender, you know, had

00:38:09.320 his hand in his face and made this incredible three-point shot to put him up by five points,

00:38:15.020 I think, and the time expired after about 10 seconds.

00:38:18.280 You know, I watched that clip this morning and I just thought to myself, that's incredible

00:38:22.580 that he got that ball.

00:38:24.220 He had made the decision to shoot before he got the ball, probably.

00:38:27.480 Uh, and he, he made the shot in spite of being rushed.

00:38:31.940 It looked like every other shot that he had made, the defender was in his face and it was

00:38:36.940 nothing but net.

00:38:37.820 I just, it was so incredible, truly incredible.

00:38:40.760 He really, he is something else, isn't he?

00:38:43.660 You know, and that culture that they've built, the culture that they've built, I spent some

00:38:47.740 time with Steve Kerr.

00:38:49.460 Um, when I was up at the Seattle Seahawks, he came up to understand what coach Carroll and

00:38:53.540 I were doing to try to build the culture at the Seahawks.

00:38:55.940 And I think a lot of people might find this, um, surprising, but he's built his culture

00:39:04.000 on joy and love and togetherness, you know, like it's, it's, it's, it's foundation is about

00:39:12.920 celebrating the fun, the joy of being your very best and to do it together.

00:39:18.140 And not all cultures have challenges.

00:39:20.840 It doesn't mean that just cause you say it, that's what it is, but, um, they're more,

00:39:25.520 they're more on it than off it.

00:39:27.340 And it's pretty cool to know that that's, you know, that's out in the world like that.

00:39:32.320 That sounds more like a mastery and artistic expression of, of enjoying the game or enjoying

00:39:37.060 life or whatever your craft might be.

00:39:38.900 Yeah.

00:39:40.200 As opposed to like, I don't know, Bill Belichick, I've got great respect for what he's been

00:39:44.120 able to do, but like their culture is do your job.

00:39:46.980 Well, you know, do it right.

00:39:48.820 Just do your job.

00:39:50.360 And, um, which is very different than let's celebrate being your best.

00:39:55.280 It's a, it's just a different tone.

00:39:56.800 And so, and of course, cause I haven't been in those walls, I could have it completely

00:40:01.340 wrong.

00:40:01.760 I'm just picking up on what guys have told me, but, um, you know, he's won a lot, you

00:40:08.240 know, something's working.

00:40:11.440 Yeah.

00:40:11.940 And at what cost I would say, let's, let's just take, take the Patriots and Bill Belichick

00:40:17.540 out of it, but a culture that is about execution on demand.

00:40:20.760 I don't care who you're, what your name is, what your backstory is, where you grew up.

00:40:25.180 I don't care about that.

00:40:26.680 Are you going to put the rock in the back of the bucket when it matters?

00:40:30.080 Um, those environments are so dismissive of the essence of the human.

00:40:34.340 It creates great turmoil for people after they leave the league because they were used,

00:40:40.140 they were bought, they were traded, they were, they were used for their talent and they made

00:40:45.600 a lot of money and they've got a platform if they want to do something after.

00:40:50.040 But why is it?

00:40:51.120 Why is it that 87% in the NFL within two years of leaving the league are completely broke?

00:40:58.040 They don't know who they are.

00:40:59.400 Those there's not enough cultures that are saying, look, we're going to figure out how

00:41:03.560 to be our very best together.

00:41:05.800 And to do that, we need to know each other.

00:41:07.940 So I want to know your scar tissues.

00:41:09.440 I want to know your traumas.

00:41:10.960 I want to know your ambitions, your hopes and dreams.

00:41:13.220 And I want you to know mine because when it comes down to it, we need to, we need to

00:41:17.340 keep our arms locked together.

00:41:19.200 And what happens for most people is the beginning of the year, whoo, we're going to go get it.

00:41:22.760 It's a rad.

00:41:23.600 This is the team we need.

00:41:24.620 Everything's good.

00:41:25.600 And we're all locked in brotherhood.

00:41:27.420 And then as soon as like things go sideways and there's real stress in the system and

00:41:32.560 it's starting to fray, people pull their arms apart.

00:41:35.140 And that's where the whole thing falls apart, you know, because we know that sport is make

00:41:39.820 believe.

00:41:40.280 We know that like, these are man, human made rules with like artificial consequences.

00:41:47.600 If you step over the line, you don't get shot.

00:41:50.100 You don't, there's no, there's no landmine there.

00:41:52.860 You just get called as a foul, you know, and people boo and maybe you don't get another

00:41:57.720 contract and I'm being dismissive to their pressures, but that's why we don't take care

00:42:03.060 of each other is because the consequences are not real.

00:42:06.420 When consequences are real and you're in a foxhole, you, you, you're only going to want

00:42:13.100 to be in those foxholes with men that are people that you know are about it.

00:42:17.800 And they're going to have your back.

00:42:18.980 You're going to have their back.

00:42:19.780 And the only reason you do that is because you've invested in them and they've invested

00:42:23.840 in you.

00:42:24.580 So that's where relationships sit at the center of anything that's going to be special period

00:42:29.200 full stop.

00:42:31.120 Yeah.

00:42:31.180 I think that's, I think that's valuable.

00:42:32.800 I I've talked with over 450 men now on this podcast and all of them incredible in their

00:42:40.360 own right, but there are very, uh, quite a few of these men who are so one dimensional.

00:42:46.360 They are so good at their thing at the expense of everything else.

00:42:50.600 And some would even suggest because they've told me that they're not fulfilled in life.

00:42:55.940 They're just exceptional at this one thing and they do it really, really well, but the relationships

00:43:01.140 are terrible.

00:43:01.940 Their financial situation is distant disarray.

00:43:04.760 They're depressed.

00:43:05.860 They're, they're anxious.

00:43:07.740 Uh, being one dimensional, isn't something that I'm interested in.

00:43:12.460 I think I'm interested in a more of a well-rounded man.

00:43:16.980 It's dangerous.

00:43:17.900 It's desperate because when that thing gets threatened, there's nothing left.

00:43:23.700 That's why, that's why public speaking is so terrifying for so many because their entire

00:43:28.780 identity is wrapped into what they do.

00:43:30.840 And we hit this in the book, it's called performance-based identity.

00:43:33.900 And of course it makes sense that certainly in the United States, we're going to have performance-based

00:43:38.540 identities because we're obsessed.

00:43:40.380 Our culture is obsessed with performance.

00:43:42.880 So what happens for people is when they're going to walk up those five stages or five steps

00:43:46.680 to get on stage and it feels like they're being chased by a saber tooth or wildebeest, that

00:43:53.960 it's because their entire identity is on the line because what they are, not who they are,

00:44:00.400 they are what they do and how well they do it.

00:44:03.640 And if those eyeballs are looking with some disdain or confusion and they're undressing the

00:44:09.780 person on stage because they're not good enough in the way that they're thinking or executing

00:44:13.460 or sharing their ideas, everything's on the line.

00:44:18.460 It's just too much.

00:44:20.360 And so that's why people act out of some desperation and anxiety, a la fatigue and sometimes depression.

00:44:27.860 We are more tired than we've ever been in my lifetime.

00:44:32.060 And so the workforce is fatigued.

00:44:34.220 And so there really is a human energy crisis.

00:44:36.800 And I believe it's because we're not working from the inside out enough.

00:44:41.000 It's not that the external world is all that bad.

00:44:45.180 I say that with an asterisk next to some parts of the world that are at war.

00:44:51.000 And for people that are in poverty and struggling in our own country and 300 million people in

00:44:55.860 India that don't have running water or gas. 0.92

00:44:58.020 And, you know, so there are places that are really fucking hard. 0.78

00:45:01.740 But for most people, probably in your community, it's not all that bad. 0.91

00:45:07.260 Right.

00:45:07.760 But we're tired.

00:45:08.540 We're exhausted.

00:45:09.340 I would not trade now for the dark ages.

00:45:14.020 That's for sure.

00:45:14.880 Medieval times were probably not my jam.

00:45:18.180 We romanticize it, though, and think that it would be better.

00:45:20.760 It truly would not be better.

00:45:22.980 Come on.

00:45:23.700 I mean, yeah.

00:45:25.720 I mean, no, I don't want that.

00:45:27.300 But anyways, like the contour and the shape and the roundness that you're talking about

00:45:31.300 is what a modern man looks like.

00:45:33.860 It's having dimension, having insight, working from a place of global thinking and intimacy

00:45:41.320 and relationships.

00:45:42.460 That's the modern leader.

00:45:44.580 And so anything less than a sophisticated understanding of how psychology works will fall short.

00:45:49.860 Is there value in analyzing performance, though?

00:45:56.240 I mean, I do.

00:45:57.120 I look at performance.

00:45:58.300 I look at podcast downloads, for example, or I look at the way that I might be not as easy

00:46:04.480 to quantify, but the way that I'm showing up for my children.

00:46:07.600 Am I performing well as their father?

00:46:09.520 It seems to me that there is some value, though, in looking at your performance as a metric

00:46:14.720 for your own growth and how you're doing.

00:46:18.360 100%.

00:46:18.800 Like if we can't deliver, then like in pro sports, if I didn't help a team win or perform

00:46:27.680 well consistently, you know, I'm kicked off the plane.

00:46:31.880 Right.

00:46:32.080 The owner is going to fly his private jet no matter what.

00:46:34.720 The team's got their charter thing because that's the investment.

00:46:37.120 And, you know, I'm kicked off the boat trying to or on my own little dinghy trying to figure

00:46:41.940 out how to row faster.

00:46:43.320 So we have to deliver performance standards.

00:46:46.980 And so I'm all about that.

00:46:51.320 It's the way that you relate to it, though.

00:46:53.760 It's your commitment to being dimensional as opposed to kind of having only a single focus.

00:47:01.980 It's your commitment to being a good partner because nobody can do it alone.

00:47:07.560 Nobody does anything in this planet alone.

00:47:10.440 You go into a cage.

00:47:11.620 I've cornered three cage fights at the UFC championship fights.

00:47:15.940 He or she is alone in the cage, but they didn't get there alone.

00:47:20.480 We all have teams, teams and teams, teams behind teams.

00:47:24.340 And so we need each other.

00:47:26.760 And that's why I'm saying full stop.

00:47:28.720 It's about the relationship.

00:47:29.680 And if you get some of that stuff right, you get your core capabilities, you get good relationships

00:47:34.920 forged, and you can weather some tough, difficult times.

00:47:39.000 You can bring it when it matters.

00:47:40.540 And that's kind of how I've enjoyed knowing the environments that have been successful.

00:47:45.580 It's been more about the capabilities and less about the outcomes.

00:47:51.300 But outcomes matter.

00:47:51.960 I like that.

00:47:53.040 That really resonates with me because I've been thinking about this concept lately is

00:47:57.140 some might say, oh, well, Ryan's a good podcaster.

00:48:00.300 Yeah, I feel like I am.

00:48:01.840 I've been doing it long enough that I feel like I am.

00:48:04.040 But more than that, podcasting is just a skill.

00:48:07.400 It's not really all that important.

00:48:09.220 It's some technology.

00:48:10.320 If you have the technology and you've done it enough, you can be great.

00:48:12.640 But it's how I go about doing it.

00:48:15.780 And the way I show up in a podcast ready to have a conversation, prepared, having the

00:48:19.780 right guest on, having the right technology, I translate that to being a father and wrapping

00:48:25.700 a Christmas gift for my kids.

00:48:27.560 It's not about the Christmas gift.

00:48:28.960 It's about doing it the best that you can with thoughtfulness and intent behind it.

00:48:33.320 And you can apply that to podcasting, wrapping Christmas presents, driving down the road,

00:48:37.440 having a conversation with your wife.

00:48:38.820 It really doesn't matter what you're doing at that point, because it's about the way

00:48:43.200 you go about doing the thing.

00:48:45.660 I love it.

00:48:46.240 The way.

00:48:47.160 That is so zen.

00:48:49.020 You know, so committing to the way is certainly a big part of mastery.

00:48:54.520 To go back to one thing that we were talking quite a bit earlier was caring about what the

00:49:00.620 right people think of you, because it's not just not caring what anybody thinks.

00:49:05.300 And sometimes you hear that misinterpretation of this, because I care what my kids think

00:49:09.420 about me, because I'm trying to lead them.

00:49:11.280 So that's probably an important consideration.

00:49:13.740 I care about what men listening to this podcast think of me, because I want them to be influenced

00:49:17.460 positively by the work we're doing.

00:49:19.860 How do you determine that?

00:49:21.640 Is there a litmus test or some sort of something that you run things through to determine who

00:49:27.480 is important and who isn't?

00:49:28.720 Yeah, it's not who's important, it's more like whose opinion rises above and matters

00:49:36.180 most.

00:49:37.280 So I needed to make it really simple, because I struggled with much of what you and I have

00:49:42.320 talked about already.

00:49:43.200 I've struggled with it, meaning that I lived that obsessed performance-based life.

00:49:47.020 I almost lost my marriage.

00:49:48.720 Like, I understand that loneliness that comes with the depression and anxiety.

00:49:52.740 Like, I lived that.

00:49:54.260 And so I was so over-indexed on the external appreciation for who I was that I lost my own

00:50:01.720 sense of who I was. 0.99

00:50:03.160 All that being said, I was kicking ass. 0.98

00:50:04.860 I was doing the thing at a high level. 0.98

00:50:06.940 Okay, so who matters?

00:50:08.880 I had to make it really simple.

00:50:10.780 I just built a round table of eight.

00:50:13.700 And to have a seat at that table, there's two variables that needed to take place.

00:50:19.920 One, they needed to have done something in their life, been out there, fully committed

00:50:25.740 to it, laid a bet, you know, understand the amphitheater of risk.

00:50:29.720 That's one.

00:50:30.540 The second is that they need to have demonstrated time under tension with me, that they have

00:50:35.560 invested in caring about me, and in return, or not necessarily in return, as well as I

00:50:42.460 care about them.

00:50:43.600 So there's time under tension, and they know my scar tissues and dreams and hopes.

00:50:49.920 And they've really gone for it in their life.

00:50:52.520 So I've got a round table of eight.

00:50:54.500 And right outside that eight, there's another 12 chairs.

00:50:57.900 And that's kind of it.

00:50:59.660 You know, for me, I just needed to make it really simple.

00:51:02.600 Yeah, that makes sense.

00:51:03.160 I mean, this is why you've referenced the military a couple of times now, somebody in

00:51:06.880 your foxhole.

00:51:07.660 I mean, they meet that criteria.

00:51:09.220 They've done something with their life.

00:51:10.480 They've invested in being there with you.

00:51:12.000 They've put literally their life on the line. 0.99

00:51:13.520 And they've been in some hard shit, life-altering shit with you. 0.99

00:51:19.120 Like, that's somebody that should have a seat at your table. 1.00

00:51:22.340 That's right.

00:51:23.040 One of the folks at my table, he's an operator, retired operator, a SEALs operator.

00:51:30.100 And we don't hang out that much.

00:51:32.260 We don't even talk that much.

00:51:36.020 But there's a special bond that we have.

00:51:38.820 And I know that he knows me.

00:51:42.340 He's done some stuff.

00:51:44.220 And kind of in an imaginary sense, oftentimes, I think, you know, what would he do?

00:51:50.200 How would he think?

00:51:51.600 And when I'm like, kind of confused about something, I do give him a ring.

00:51:55.400 So it doesn't need to be somebody that you see every day.

00:51:58.100 It doesn't have to be because you love your parents.

00:52:00.640 It doesn't have to be your parents, you know?

00:52:02.920 So at least for me, that table is a bit of a sanctuary.

00:52:09.320 Are there, when you talk about that table, I mean, clearly you're not talking about a

00:52:12.820 literal table where you all sit down and have conversations or whatever on a regular basis.

00:52:17.280 But is there, are there questions that you should be asking of these individuals to

00:52:23.580 determine if they're as interested or vested in having that type of relationship as you

00:52:28.820 might be?

00:52:29.220 That, that you mean the time under tension bit?

00:52:32.900 Time under tension, just, just having a relationship with them, more of an accountability

00:52:37.200 relationship or that they know that you count them among your trusted advisors.

00:52:42.320 Well, for me, it's the relationship would, it would, it would make sense.

00:52:46.760 They know, they know.

00:52:48.160 And whether, whether they know or not that they're at the eight is immaterial.

00:52:53.160 It's not, this is not transactional.

00:52:55.240 This is not, there's a feeling and a contour to it that they'd say, oh yeah, I'm part of

00:53:03.960 his life.

00:53:04.640 Oh yeah.

00:53:05.320 Of course.

00:53:06.340 Yeah.

00:53:06.780 Oh gosh.

00:53:07.260 I'm glad I'm one of the eights.

00:53:08.340 Yeah.

00:53:08.600 Yeah.

00:53:08.760 It's great.

00:53:09.560 Yes, of course.

00:53:10.360 So it's, there's no like, hey, will you take a seat at the table with me?

00:53:15.580 It doesn't work like that for me.

00:53:17.900 I've never explicitly, I've never explicitly told these eight.

00:53:21.460 Yeah.

00:53:21.640 That makes sense.

00:53:22.360 I just, I have a lot of guys who will ask, you know, for, for example, with mentorship,

00:53:25.600 like, oh, how do I find a mentor?

00:53:27.440 And that might be more of a transactional relationship, right?

00:53:29.940 You hire a mentor, you hire a coach, you hire somebody who can help you accomplish whatever

00:53:33.820 specific task you're out to accomplish.

00:53:35.500 But this sounds different than that.

00:53:37.900 Oh, totally.

00:53:38.440 Yeah.

00:53:38.660 A mentor, one of my mentors is at the eight, but it's not, he's known me since I was 15.

00:53:43.520 So it's like, it's, it's a little different.

00:53:45.860 And I think it's a really good question.

00:53:47.140 How do I find a mentor?

00:53:48.320 How do you answer that?

00:53:50.640 I've never had to look, but I've had some really cool mentors.

00:53:53.600 Yeah.

00:53:54.340 And I, most of my mentorship has been organic.

00:53:57.700 I have hired coaches and things like that for specific tasks.

00:54:00.800 But what I would suggest is that you find somebody who is accomplishing one of two things where

00:54:07.420 you have your two kind of criteria.

00:54:09.120 Mine is they're either accomplishing what it is that you want to accomplish, or they have

00:54:14.360 a track record of helping other people accomplish what you want to accomplish.

00:54:19.440 And if, and it has to be that you have to throw that second one in there because you could

00:54:24.600 take Bill Belichick, for example, since we were talking about him earlier, like he's not

00:54:30.580 going to be the greatest quarterback of all time, but he coached the greatest quarterback

00:54:34.920 of all time up to this point.

00:54:36.900 So is he, is he worth considering as a, as a mentor, if you want to be a great quarterback?

00:54:41.920 Yeah, probably.

00:54:42.700 Even though he's not actively doing the thing, he has a history of being able to perform and

00:54:47.180 do it that way.

00:54:48.900 The person has to also want to be interested in you, you know, like, I mean, it's transactional

00:54:56.120 if you're paying them, if they've done it for other people or they're further down the

00:55:01.640 path and they want to spend their time.

00:55:04.640 I don't know that those both sound, those both to me sound like, um, either it's transactional

00:55:10.780 or the person is like, man, I would love to spend time with you too.

00:55:14.000 Like you're cool on your path.

00:55:15.580 Like I see me in you and I'd love to be able to help however I can.

00:55:20.620 Most people that are, if you're trying to get closer to somebody that's doing the thing

00:55:24.800 that you want to do, they're going to try to figure out how to fold you into what they're

00:55:30.260 doing.

00:55:31.320 And so that might be good, but like, we don't help our competitors like that benevolently.

00:55:36.820 It has to serve.

00:55:38.020 So if you're the mentee or the mentor, like, how does this work for me?

00:55:42.020 What am I learning?

00:55:42.740 If I'm learning something that I want to learn about maybe AI and you're closer to AI, great.

00:55:48.220 Come on.

00:55:48.840 It's an equal exchange.

00:55:49.960 That sounds fun, but that is transactional too.

00:55:53.300 So I I'm less interested in people in my, I'm less interested in mentorship relative to

00:55:59.740 achievement because I'm more interested in like, what are the capabilities?

00:56:05.200 Like that person that's really happy and there's a vibe and like, and I can bring some sort

00:56:12.360 of role to their life and they're bringing some sort of role to my life that is as meaning

00:56:16.540 and purpose and not transactional.

00:56:18.520 So whether it's happiness or joy, or I just fill in the blanks.

00:56:23.740 I think it gets tricky when it's, I think you got to pay for that.

00:56:28.080 You know, if it's like somebody that is too.

00:56:30.560 Yeah.

00:56:31.040 Right.

00:56:31.400 So I think both serve their purpose, right?

00:56:34.760 I mean, it's, I have coaches that I hire and that's the extent of our relationship.

00:56:40.100 I hire you, you teach me how to do X, Y, and Z, and I pay you whatever we agreed upon.

00:56:45.840 And I'm good with that.

00:56:47.320 As long as we both know, Hey, this is a transactional relationship.

00:56:50.140 Cool.

00:56:50.840 Good.

00:56:51.100 Done.

00:56:51.420 And then I have, like you, I have a small group of men who I can call on a moment's notice

00:56:58.920 and I know them.

00:57:00.340 I know their struggles.

00:57:01.220 I know their family.

00:57:02.100 I know what they're dealing with.

00:57:03.040 They know my baggage.

00:57:04.000 They know all my stuff and they're free to share with me what needs to be shared, even

00:57:08.940 if it's uncomfortable and inconvenient.

00:57:13.220 What was the, what was that wildly successful soccer TV show?

00:57:19.480 Um, Oh, uh, Ted Lasso.

00:57:22.500 Oh, Ted Lasso.

00:57:23.720 Right.

00:57:24.140 So, you know, when they would close the door and they would have their little council meetings,

00:57:28.260 those are like, if you can find a group of men in this case that, um, you can have those

00:57:36.700 real honest conversations with, they're so good.

00:57:39.920 You know, sometimes the one-on-one is, um, magic.

00:57:43.680 And sometimes the six men in a room is like, uh, really special.

00:57:48.440 So I don't know, it's rare to get that at work environments, but that's one of the things

00:57:52.920 that sport does offer.

00:57:54.160 You know, it's one of the things I'm not with a pro team right now.

00:57:56.580 It's one of the things I miss most is the relationship with the coaches, you know, solving

00:58:01.500 things in each other's lives.

00:58:03.640 Yeah.

00:58:04.120 It's powerful.

00:58:05.340 Well, Michael, I appreciate the discussion and conversation today.

00:58:07.860 I took a bunch of notes.

00:58:08.960 If you saw me with my eyes down is because I was taking notes and, and I, uh, I'm actually

00:58:14.340 in a, in a good position to be mentored by men like you and so many others.

00:58:18.200 So I've got so many different notes, but, uh, it's been good.

00:58:22.040 Can you tell the guys where to, Oh, go ahead.

00:58:24.280 Sorry.

00:58:25.000 No, it's just fun to be a learner in life, you know?

00:58:27.560 So I appreciate that, that, that position.

00:58:29.980 Yeah.

00:58:30.320 Thank you.

00:58:31.500 Can you tell the guys where to connect with you, learn a little bit more about what you're

00:58:34.880 doing and then pick up a copy of the first rule of mastery?

00:58:38.220 Yeah, for sure.

00:58:38.980 So first rule of mastery is everywhere.

00:58:40.420 You can find it wherever you buy your books.

00:58:43.420 And then the second is the podcast.

00:58:45.060 Finding mastery podcast is awesome.

00:58:46.720 It's a way to have a relationship.

00:58:48.000 And the third is, um, we're on all the social media stuff.

00:58:51.120 It's at Michael Gervais, G E R V A I S.

00:58:55.280 But the, um, the, the, the most interesting way is that we've taken best practices from high

00:59:00.680 performing sport and we've brought those best practices into business, how to switch on

00:59:05.020 your culture, how to train the psychological skills of people inside that culture.

00:59:09.020 And so that's where I've, I've, I spend most of my time is helping people in corporate

00:59:13.980 settings, uh, invest in their psychology.

00:59:16.420 And so all of that's on online finding mastery.com.

00:59:19.820 We'll sync it all up.

00:59:20.700 So the guys know where to go.

00:59:21.740 Michael, I appreciate you and your work and your books and, uh, taking some time to join

00:59:25.660 us today.

00:59:26.040 Thank you very much.

00:59:27.440 Appreciate your community.

00:59:28.500 The way you ask the questions really, really appreciate this time.

00:59:31.720 Right.

00:59:31.960 Thank you.

00:59:34.400 Man, there you go.

00:59:35.080 The conversation with Dr.

00:59:36.140 Michael Gervais.

00:59:36.720 I hope you enjoyed that one.

00:59:38.180 Very fascinating for me.

00:59:39.360 As you know, if you've been following for any amount of time, I take copious notes.

00:59:43.200 I've got thousands and thousands of words and pages and documents on all the notes that

00:59:47.480 I've taken from my guests.

00:59:48.460 And if you're in the position to do this, I hope you take notes as well.

00:59:51.260 If not, I would just recommend picking up a copy of his newest book, which is called

00:59:55.280 the first rule of mastery.

00:59:56.540 Stop worrying about what other people think of you highly, highly recommend that one.

01:00:02.560 Uh, make sure to take a screenshot right now, take a screenshot, post it up, tag Michael

01:00:07.940 Gervais, tag myself, uh, tag order of men, let people know what you're listening to.

01:00:13.000 There are men out there.

01:00:14.280 Trust me.

01:00:14.700 Cause I hear from them every day who want this information, who need these resources, who

01:00:18.980 want to improve upon in their life.

01:00:20.420 And if you have a tool that I think we can allow others to see what that is so that they

01:00:26.020 can improve their own lives.

01:00:27.320 And that makes you valuable too.

01:00:28.640 And don't we all want to add value?

01:00:30.020 So please do that.

01:00:31.380 Uh, check out the iron council.

01:00:32.820 It's open until January 7th, order of man.com slash iron council.

01:00:36.600 And if you're in the market for a beautifully handcrafted made in America knife, then go check

01:00:41.780 out Montana knife company.com and use the code order of man.

01:00:46.000 All right, gentlemen, those are your marching orders for today.

01:00:48.720 We will be back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action, stop

01:00:55.120 worrying about what other people think of you and become a man.

01:00:58.420 You are meant to be.

01:01:00.540 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:01:03.400 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

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Order of Man - December 26, 2023

MICHAEL GERVAIS ｜ Get Over What Others Think of You

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