Order of Man - MICHAEL MILLIN ｜ Break the Cycle of Trauma and Addiction

00:00:00.000 Every man carries forces that pull against each other. For you, maybe it's the urge to numb out versus the call to actually face it. Maybe it's inheriting your father's failures, but also the responsibility to break that chain for yourself and your children.

00:00:16.280 For my guest today, Michael Millen, those opposing forces weren't just a metaphor.

00:00:21.920 They were the difference between his life lost in addiction versus the 17 years of sobriety

00:00:29.040 that he's built since hitting rock bottom with his back against the wall.

00:00:32.880 Today, Michael and I talk about generational trauma, the instability of growing up with

00:00:39.460 a father who came in and out of his life, and what it actually takes to stop running

00:00:44.440 from the pain that you've spent potentially your whole life numbing from. This is a very raw

00:00:49.920 conversation about alcoholism, faith, and the lie that we have to wrap up our identity in being

00:00:56.560 broken. Michael shares how he went from mocking Christianity to wrestling honestly with God.

00:01:03.640 We talk about that today. How a single sober friend changed the trajectory of his life

00:01:09.300 and why enablers end up doing more damage than they'll possibly admit.

00:01:16.300 So if you've ever told yourself you weren't okay and didn't know what to do about it,

00:01:19.800 this one's for you.

00:01:20.600 You're a man of action.

00:01:22.160 You live life to the fullest.

00:01:23.600 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:01:26.540 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:30.960 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:36.060 This is your life.

00:01:37.120 This is who you are.

00:01:38.540 This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:01:41.500 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:45.680 Gentlemen, welcome to the podcast.

00:01:47.500 I am the founder and host of the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:50.700 And I want to be the first to welcome you here.

00:01:52.960 Whether you've listened to a thousand episodes or this is your very first episode,

00:01:57.420 it's my job to give you all the tools and resources and conversation

00:02:01.220 that you need to become a better man in your life.

00:02:05.220 I've got a great one lined up with Michael Millen today.

00:02:07.340 Before I do that, I want to talk about something else that's great.

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00:02:23.220 And I had five or six separate friends reach out to me and told me that they had one in

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00:02:34.140 So I talked to the guys over at Montana Knife Company.

00:02:37.100 they are coming out with another batch very soon. So if you're looking for the folding knife called

00:02:42.200 the Montana or just a good knife for the field, for the kitchen, for everyday life, look no further

00:02:47.240 than my friends over at Montana knife company and use the code order of man, all one word,

00:02:52.660 and you're going to save some money when you do. All right, guys, let me introduce you to Michael.

00:02:57.280 He is a professional surfer. He's an author. He's also an advocate for men battling addiction

00:03:02.840 and the generational trauma that potentially fuels it.

00:03:07.400 He grew up watching legends like Kelly Slater and Rob Machado.

00:03:11.300 And his early life was marked by an unstable family

00:03:15.060 and a father who drifted in and out of his life,

00:03:18.700 eventually relapsing in front of his son.

00:03:21.400 And that instability is what set the stage for his own descent into alcoholism,

00:03:27.500 a battle that he fought until he had no choice but to change.

00:03:30.840 now he's 17 years sober michael is also the author of a book called a life of opposing forces

00:03:37.540 and it confronts the internal war between self-destruction and one of redemption he's

00:03:46.880 the founder of further active and a voice for men who feel trapped by some of the same cycles that

00:03:52.380 he's managed to escape through his work through his serve community and through his newfound faith

00:03:58.300 Michael challenges atheism he once hid behind and offers man a very hard one hard earned truth

00:04:07.680 that you don't have to stay the person that the pain you've experienced made you

00:04:13.200 Mike what's up man thanks for joining me on the order man podcast today good to meet you

00:04:18.660 officially yeah great to meet you Ryan you know as I mentioned a little while ago just

00:04:26.400 I'm surprised I haven't come across your work because I mean I was digging into a little bit

00:04:30.960 of like what you do and what you're about you know just we have a lot in common like the stuff

00:04:35.240 you know the father figure stuff alcoholism separation faith so yeah looking forward to

00:04:41.860 talking to you man it's nice to meet you yeah likewise I you know when you say you and I have

00:04:46.760 a lot in common I've been doing this work for 10 years and it's it's amazing and quite honestly a

00:04:53.260 little disheartening. Um, how many men actually have gone through the same thing, overcoming

00:04:59.700 addiction, dealing with fatherless homes? Um, man, it's, it's at this point, I just think it's

00:05:07.900 an epidemic that we need to make sure that we address and, and correctly try to remedy.

00:05:16.600 Yeah. I'm just curious. Uh, so did you not have a dad at all growing up or he was in and out or?

00:05:23.260 My, my dad, my biological father, my dad was, uh, out of the picture for the most part by the

00:05:30.040 time I was about three years old. And we always had a pretty decent relationship. I'd go visit

00:05:34.640 him and spend time with him. Always loved him. Good human being. There was just some disconnects,

00:05:39.640 you know? Um, I don't think he knew how to raise me and my sister. And, you know, I, I held that

00:05:47.600 against him for a while, uh, for a long time actually. And it wasn't until his passing where

00:05:51.580 I really started to let go of some of that and, and afford some grace and forgiveness that has

00:05:56.640 helped me. And hopefully at some point we'll in the afterlife, be able to reconnect and have some

00:06:02.960 of these discussions that we probably should have had when we had the opportunity in life.

00:06:08.340 Yeah. I mean, my pops is still here. I don't know. I mean, at this point he just refuses to die,

00:06:14.740 you know? And, uh, I mean, I even, I joke with him about that and he's like, I know son,

00:06:19.540 I'm like a cockroach you know but you know we have this back and forth that's pretty that's

00:06:23.600 pretty amazing um but uh yeah I mean yeah I don't know where I was going with that but I I yeah I 0.99

00:06:30.620 relate to that a lot like you said it's pretty common it seems like you know with men walking

00:06:34.700 through these things uh and it is disheartening but it's also uh it's crazy how walking through

00:06:41.860 this stuff is it's what kind of like reveals who you truly are and helps you you know get to a

00:06:48.220 much better place in the end. Right. But it's not easy. Yeah. I, you know, I don't think anybody has

00:06:55.720 it easy. I think it's really a matter of how we choose to look at it, right? Like some people

00:07:01.260 choose to look at whatever hand they've been dealt and think they've been slighted or taken

00:07:07.040 advantage of in some way. And maybe they have, but there's those who would take the same hand

00:07:11.560 and think, okay, this is my lot in life. And so what can I do with it? It's really a matter of how

00:07:16.140 we look at the hand how we approach it the hand that we play and the moves that we make that

00:07:22.000 determine whether or not that's going to define us or it's just a part of our story yeah yeah

00:07:28.780 absolutely what what when you were dealing with your own so let me let me back up a little bit

00:07:35.040 when you talk about your father being in your life now was he always in your life or was it

00:07:41.400 come and go? Was it distant? Like, what did that actually look like for you? So he was in and out

00:07:48.040 a lot. I mean, and so, you know, there was lots of, there's alcoholism going on. There was drug

00:07:54.300 addiction. And I mean, my parents probably like broke up and got back together over 30 times when

00:08:00.320 I was a kid. So we were always on the run, you know, it was like, we were, we were poor, we were

00:08:06.900 on welfare um you know taking the greyhound bus all over the u.s um hawaii my mom's the youngest

00:08:14.080 of seven she's like her uh family's like they're native they're uh from north dakota um and they

00:08:22.840 just have a big family man and so like she was the youngest and we were always going to live with her

00:08:26.500 older siblings so montana florida you know all over california like i said hawaii so you know

00:08:33.260 like I've mentioned in the past in a few clips, like, you know,

00:08:36.540 whenever my dad disappeared, I was always going with my mom,

00:08:38.780 but it was more like, you know, it was, it takes two to tangle. Right.

00:08:42.280 So my mom would be on the run and my dad would be on a huge bender that would

00:08:47.400 last four years or so. Yeah. He was in and out, um, when I was a kid,

00:08:52.460 but he came back in my life more like full time when I was about nine because

00:08:56.780 he got sober.

00:08:59.980 Like he's been sober since the time you were nine. I mean,

00:09:02.940 that's a feat. I know a lot of guys who have gone through it and really, including myself,

00:09:06.800 I've, I've had my own bouts with alcohol abuse and it can be a real challenge, man.

00:09:12.680 Yeah. Um, well, I was going to ask, did you get sober, like through the program,

00:09:17.960 12 steps or you do your own thing or a bit of both, you know, like, uh,

00:09:23.280 the hardest thing for me, if I'm being really honest and, and I'm, I'm actually careful of

00:09:29.240 saying this because I know there's a lot of guys who listen, who are in AA or considering it. And

00:09:36.180 I think it's a really great thing for a lot of guys. The hardest part for me is that I never

00:09:40.600 really felt like I belonged. I never really felt like I saw myself and the people in that room.

00:09:49.520 And I'm not trying to be arrogant by any means, but it was really, really difficult for me to

00:09:54.800 relate. And because I didn't have that relatability, it, it undermined some of the trust in the

00:10:01.000 program that I had. But I will say, I know it's worked for probably at this point, millions of

00:10:06.940 people. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of it depends on the area you're in too. Sometimes

00:10:12.780 like, I mean, the message is always the same wherever you go. Like I've been to meetings

00:10:15.840 all over the world, but, um, it kind of, you know, it, it changes a bit different parts of

00:10:21.980 the world. Just the, the, the culture, the attitude and the meanings. But what I was going

00:10:27.300 to mention was why, and it's why AA is still such a big part of my life. You know, the 12 step

00:10:32.840 program is because my dad got sober when I was nine years old and he stayed sober for 15 years,

00:10:39.080 but he didn't really work the program. He, you know, he went through this, he didn't finish

00:10:44.080 the steps. He started them and he had a major relapse at 15 years sober and things got like

00:10:50.200 really ugly when i you know so i was in my late teens early 20s at that point he lost everything

00:10:56.260 again the family the the small business um he ended up homeless for 10 years after that and

00:11:03.660 that really like scared the shit out of me watching that firsthand and i was actually

00:11:08.500 just starting to become like an alcoholic myself like i you know the first time i drank i was 15

00:11:13.820 at a high school party and i was challenging the seniors and i i blacked out and knocked

00:11:19.820 my front tooth out like just you know got in a fight with the with the ground with the concrete

00:11:25.500 so that was my first experience you didn't win that one huh um so i was already like wow that

00:11:33.500 didn't turn out too well you know and and um i was having some issues with it but then watching

00:11:37.940 my dad relapse and watching the monster that he turned into it was like looking into the mirror

00:11:44.220 like it really i was like oh my god that's me that's what and people were telling me you know

00:11:49.380 Mike, you're an alcoholic. And so, so yeah, that, that as hard as that was to walk through that,

00:11:55.700 that was a godsend in a way too, you know, it's because I wouldn't have got sober if it wasn't 0.77

00:12:00.120 for that being able to look in the mirror and go, Holy crap, there I am. I do not want anything to 0.55

00:12:05.160 do with that. What do you think though, made it a differentiating factor? Because, you know, I,

00:12:12.560 I look just like my dad from my beard to my eyes, to my mannerisms. I, I am basically a clone of

00:12:19.360 my, my dad. Um, and I always told myself growing up that there were parts of him that I really

00:12:29.340 admired and there are, there, there's some really redeeming qualities about him. And there's some

00:12:34.640 parts of him that I just did not want to be like. And yet by default, it seemed like I slipped back

00:12:40.360 into those patterns. I don't want to downplay it and say that I wasn't making my own choices

00:12:45.760 because a lot of guys will do that. They'll be like, well, it was just because of my upbringing.

00:12:49.200 It's like, well, okay. Yeah, but you're a grown ass man. And so you make your own decisions, 0.99

00:12:54.880 but what do you think separated you from the millions of men who might just slip into patterns

00:13:00.380 without even thinking about it? Well, I honestly had no other choice because

00:13:07.360 we were, um, you know, I mentioned my dad had a small business, um, but he was still in a

00:13:14.500 comeback phase like when he was younger he he was an entrepreneur he owned like furniture stores and

00:13:20.000 he was wealthy but burnt that all to the ground and then built it up i've seen him go through that

00:13:25.880 cycle at least three times in my life but i mean this cycle he was rebuilding and then everything

00:13:33.640 so we were poor we were basically living in poverty you know we were like we yeah we like

00:13:38.120 we were living in the back of my dad's mattress store like you know look like four of us in a

00:13:42.840 little studio right near the beach so luckily I could surf and stuff but um it was you know we

00:13:49.060 were in poverty and growing up in a really wealthy area too in San Diego which so it was like it was

00:13:54.240 really like embarrassing and I wish I was you know I was just a kid I didn't know any better right

00:13:59.740 but uh so I basically I was living in a container when my this happened to my dad and my mom you

00:14:08.120 know they were going through the this together like they were homeless together for about 10

00:14:11.480 years but I really had nowhere to go I was in a container almost on the street and I had a friend

00:14:17.540 come into my life who was sober at the time he had 90 days sober and he invited me to a 12-step

00:14:24.020 meeting and I just man I just held on to it with everything I had like I just I was like oh my god

00:14:31.000 this is the only chance I have to stay sober and you know get to work keep a roof over my head and

00:14:37.000 it was man like i hated it but looking back now it's crazy how something like that is a blessing

00:14:42.480 because i've like i've worked in recovery now for over 10 years addiction treatment like

00:14:46.700 starting at the bottom working as a tech doing everything to like managing rehabs and sober

00:14:52.240 livings and working one-on-one with people as a sober coach like sometimes that involves travel

00:14:57.860 you know all over the world whatever it is but i what i've seen with people who who have

00:15:03.300 the means most of these people that i work with it's a wide range there's poor but there's also

00:15:09.060 like the wealthiest you can imagine no doubt yeah and and these people they it's man the way the

00:15:17.740 families enable them with money it's like they actually the families actually kill the person

00:15:22.060 sometimes because they never hit a true bottom so yeah i don't know if that makes sense yeah no it

00:15:30.020 does and when you i was taking notes there but when you were talking about enabling i think

00:15:35.140 that's the behavior i see in in a lot of people like i like personally i had friends who i wouldn't

00:15:44.220 say they enabled me because they didn't know i was a closet drinker so they didn't know but well

00:15:50.980 let me back up some of them did know and didn't say anything and my ex-wife obviously knew and

00:15:58.540 she didn't press that hard. Again, I'm not putting it on them. I'm a grown man. I should

00:16:04.960 make those choices. But I really wish that there would have been somebody in my life who said,

00:16:10.560 hey, and got a little rough with me and said, hey, we're not going down this path. You're not

00:16:16.600 doing this. I see where you're going. I see your behavior. I see what you're engaged in,

00:16:20.360 and we're not doing this. That's not their inherent responsibility. But as a friend and

00:16:25.320 a family member, I try to be that moving forward because I know what it's like when you don't have

00:16:30.460 somebody who's willing to tell you the hard truth. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've honestly seen

00:16:37.820 quite a few people die over the years because they just, they've got a million in the bank or

00:16:44.920 hundreds of thousands or whatever. It's like the family's sending them 10 grand a month.

00:16:48.700 Even a grand a month is too much sometimes. Like you got to be able to hit a true bottom and have

00:16:55.300 nowhere to go which is so crazy because that was my situation and man I can't tell you how much

00:17:01.220 I hated that when I was going through it like I was I the victimhood and the self-pity and

00:17:07.480 and I mean just to look back now I've been sober 17 years it was like wow that was a crazy blessing

00:17:15.580 as hard as that was what did what did rock bottom look like for you it looks different for a lot of

00:17:22.420 people, you know, for me, it was losing my 18 year marriage and being separated from my children

00:17:29.160 half the time. And, you know, the business suffering and my own identity and sense of

00:17:33.620 self-worth suffering, that was rock bottom for me. And I know it's different to varying degrees

00:17:38.640 for other people, but what did it look like for you? Well, luckily, you know, I was able to kind

00:17:45.700 of fast track myself. I was 24 when I got sober because of my situation with, you know, my family

00:17:52.660 and my living situation, my money, all of it. And, um, it, but, but right up until that point,

00:18:00.640 I was, uh, what was I, I was, I was a blackout drinker. So I would go on, on vendors, you know,

00:18:06.760 sometimes it would last three days. Sometimes I, I would, it would last seven months just like,

00:18:11.540 I like I could drink it's in it runs in my blood we can drink man on the Irish side and on the

00:18:17.820 Native American side that's what we do and I mean I'd wake up in different towns I didn't know how

00:18:23.380 I got there really bad stuff happening injuries that I'm still carrying to this day ankles broke

00:18:29.120 you know that busted ankles like hurting people really selfish self-absorbed living um but it

00:18:39.860 would have gotten way worse if i didn't cut it off if my dad didn't relapse at that time and

00:18:43.720 because i i was like that's it boom i got into the meeting and i saw myself looking at my dad and

00:18:48.700 um so i'll mention real quick that things got a lot better when i got sober but i've also hit

00:18:55.220 multiple multiple bottoms in sobriety in the last 17 years like i've i've had to grow up in the in

00:19:02.620 the program the 12-step program it really like because i love my family but they weren't really

00:19:08.340 there. So AA kind of like became my family and raised, raised me, you know, I had a sponsor that

00:19:14.180 became like a father figure, solid guy, his family. He even moved me into his house for a while with

00:19:20.220 his family when I had nowhere to go. You know, that was the first time I ever like got to see

00:19:25.500 what a normal family looks like that's operating well. Um, so I, uh, yeah, sorry. What was the

00:19:34.980 question again I lost well I was asking you know I'll get I was asking what rock bottom looked like

00:19:41.080 for you oh yeah and then just I was mentioning the multiple bottoms in sobriety as well because

00:19:47.540 I've had to like when I was about a year or two sober I I hit the road like I grew up surfing and

00:19:53.900 competing but then I I lived in Indonesia for like 10 years chasing the surf I don't know if you ever

00:19:59.240 been out there to bali or indonesia or any of that i haven't yeah just uh so i was and i was

00:20:06.020 still really connected with aa out there and working in a rehab and um but you know i went

00:20:12.020 through like the whole new age phase getting into meditation and and um seeing healers in in bali and

00:20:18.440 and and that led me down like and it seemed like it was working great at the time but it led me

00:20:23.800 down some really dark paths you know i saw some really scary stuff in spirituality um that you

00:20:31.020 know fast forward to two or three years ago i ended up becoming a christian and and that's just

00:20:37.260 been the most that's been the biggest most positive shift i've had in my life to this point

00:20:43.140 i had a a wonderful woman come into my life i got i got married earlier this year she's been with me

00:20:48.560 we've been together three years like there even the fact that i'm talking to you right now and i

00:20:52.540 have a book that it's all because of Christ. I really believe that. I mean, congratulations on

00:20:59.080 the marriage and also, you know, your conversion and that's amazing. Yeah. It's interesting because

00:21:03.780 I, so I never really got into surfing. I actually grew up until I was about 13, 14 years old

00:21:09.020 in Southern California, Anaheim. I'd go down to Huntington or, you know, trestles and I'd watch

00:21:16.020 Kelly Slater and Rob Machado, um, in surf competitions. And I went surfing once in

00:21:21.260 trestles. I had a good friend who, uh, was a great surfer and he took me out and I got my ass kicked 0.99

00:21:27.220 and I'm like, this is stupid. I'm not doing that again. And I think I've been on a board once 1.00

00:21:32.640 since, but I never got into it, but I can see how having a couple of things, a good outlet,

00:21:38.820 like you're talking about surfing, um, a great woman, like you're talking about and a Christ

00:21:44.020 centered life. Like that's kind of the trifecta of living a good life, quite honestly.

00:21:51.260 yeah yeah yeah it's uh i never thought it would be like i honestly i can't even believe i'm saying

00:21:57.940 this to you because i used to mock christianity and all this like i i was like this so it's just

00:22:04.680 crazy how like we really i'll speak for myself i don't know what i don't know anything really

00:22:09.920 like i know very little right until god puts things in my life and and but yeah surfing is uh

00:22:16.860 They say it has the slowest learning curve of any sport.

00:22:20.080 So don't be too hard on yourself.

00:22:21.520 Maybe when you're back over here in California, I'll get you out on the water again.

00:22:24.840 But, uh, I mean, I went to Dana point with my oldest son and with, with a friend who

00:22:30.720 wanted to teach us.

00:22:31.640 And I looked, I'm like struggling to get on a board and I, and I got, I'm fairly athletic.

00:22:35.820 I'm, I'm, I'm not unathletic.

00:22:38.360 And I'm looking over at my sons on the board, standing, riding waves on his first time.

00:22:42.200 Like, dude, how do you do?

00:22:43.300 I don't get it.

00:22:43.920 How do you do this?

00:22:44.660 i don't know if it's not my thing or i don't know what it is but man i've struggled with it for sure

00:22:49.680 it's wild how easy surfers make it look right i mean i grew up crazy i grew up watching rob

00:22:56.500 machado firsthand every day and yeah for sure he was like a god to us because he just the connection

00:23:02.940 he had with the ocean it was it's like spiritual it's weird it's like waves come to him out of

00:23:09.480 nowhere like out way out the back and it's it's wild when you see someone have that connection

00:23:14.200 with the ocean, you know, and then you throw in all the elements of like the sharks, the great

00:23:19.080 whites or the tigers, if you're in Hawaii or, you know, it's that could, I mean, it's, it's on your

00:23:24.900 mind, you know, it's, it's a, it's a wild sport, but I love it, man. I can't, I don't do well when

00:23:29.800 I'm not near the ocean. I got to get in the water almost daily. Like I just, I'm just just in my

00:23:35.340 veins. Guys, let me just step back from this conversation and it's, I know it's a really

00:23:40.360 powerful one, but I want to explain something to you because every man listening to this

00:23:44.100 probably realizes that there's a gap between who he is and who he is supposed to be or who he wants

00:23:51.900 to become. And the problem is that most men try to close that gap alone and then they end up failing

00:23:57.680 alone. And that's exactly why our Brotherhood, the Iron Council exists tonight. So Tuesday, June 9th

00:24:03.720 at 8 p.m. Eastern, we are hosting a live Iron Council preview call, and I want you on it.

00:24:10.160 This is your chance to see exactly what it looks like to surround yourself with men who refuse to

00:24:15.980 settle, men who hold the line, and men who will not let you coast through a mediocre life. There's

00:24:23.260 no fluff. There's no soft talk. It's just a brotherhood of men committed to becoming the

00:24:28.180 best fathers, leaders, husbands, business owners, you name it. So if you're tired of doing

00:24:35.760 all of this life, just all of this on your own, stop doing it on your own. Get yourself in the

00:24:43.060 game. So our registration for the preview call is open today. Head to theironcouncil.com slash

00:24:48.880 preview and lock in your spot for tonight's call. Again, it's June 9th tonight, Tuesday, June 9th,

00:24:55.480 8 PM Eastern. If your back's against the wall, let's get to work. And this is the first step

00:25:00.680 again, go to the iron council.com slash preview, lock in your spot. We'll see you tonight.

00:25:05.820 Now let's get back to it with Michael. It's, it's wild to me. Cause I often joke

00:25:11.600 cause I'm not a huge fan of the water. So maybe that's part of it. You talk about sharks,

00:25:15.900 like there's it's black down there. There's things that could eat me alive without questioning,

00:25:20.660 without a moment's notice. Um, and, and I often say, you know, if God wanted me to be in the

00:25:26.600 water, he would have given me gills. And if he wanted me to be in the air, he would have given

00:25:29.780 me wings. He didn't give me either. So I'll stay on the ground and be up in the mountains somewhere.

00:25:34.460 Yeah. Me and my friends joke a lot that, Oh, I got to get the gills wet. You know,

00:25:39.640 I got to get in the ocean. Like I'll talk to you later.

00:25:44.740 No, I think part of it is upbringing too, right? Like what you're surrounded by and what you're

00:25:48.940 comfortable with and what you're familiar with. But I think the lesson here is not surfing

00:25:54.020 necessarily. You might say it is, but I think the lesson is have an outlet, like have something that

00:26:00.060 just calls to you, that speaks to you, that you can go out and find God or find harmony with,

00:26:05.860 with earth and, and just be present in that thing. And, and also work to improve yourself,

00:26:11.880 work to develop something in yourself mentally, physically, emotionally, all of it.

00:26:16.060 yeah yeah man i uh you just made me think of something there because i've seen

00:26:22.640 i mean i've worked with so many people in recovery now going through addiction and

00:26:27.120 whether they're in the sober living whatever phase they're at in their recovery and

00:26:31.060 man time and time again the guys who don't make it they don't find something that they love

00:26:36.900 doing they just and most of the time they're you know in the house and they're they're on video

00:26:43.160 playing video games all all day and night and those are the guys who drop off you see them od

00:26:49.300 and die and or whatever it's like the life becomes so bad that they almost wish they you know and

00:26:54.880 you know what i mean like it's so important to find something that you'd love doing especially

00:26:59.540 if you're dealing with you know addiction and stuff yeah 100 do you feel like people who suffer

00:27:06.520 with addiction are, they have that, I mean, maybe this is just a dumb question, but they

00:27:16.040 do have that sort of all in black and white thinking addictive personality and they just 0.59

00:27:24.660 orient it towards something destructive. Do you think it's as simple as just orienting that

00:27:30.280 energy towards something constructive as opposed to destructive yeah and you know this isn't

00:27:38.740 everyone but the the the type of mindset that i see that struggles the most is usually people

00:27:44.340 who are like atheist and they're just it's all intellect there's no soul no using the intuition

00:27:51.460 and and yeah the intellect is incredible right for certain things i wish i had a little more

00:27:58.120 of it sometimes but the um it's yeah it's the guys who are just all in their head who who struggle

00:28:03.820 the most and they're like oh there's it's not even worth trying to go out in the world and do

00:28:07.420 anything or connect to people or be constructive or because everything sucks and um i want to die

00:28:13.680 or i just want to play you know whatever it is world warcraft or yeah so that's kind of my two

00:28:20.380 cents on that yeah what do you what is your mission then you know if you if you're thinking

00:28:24.520 about, okay, well, I don't want to just sit and play World of Warcraft. I don't even, I don't even

00:28:30.380 have Dungeons and Dragons. I don't even know what it is, but like, it's even hard for me to say.

00:28:34.720 I'm like, am I, am I saying that right? Um, what do you think, what, what would you consider your

00:28:41.580 mission outside of, Hey, I just, I want to surf. I want to, I want to, you know, be a good partner

00:28:46.200 to my, to my woman. Do you have kids? Yeah. Yeah. I have a eight year old daughter. Yeah.

00:28:51.980 okay so yeah like i i imagine you know like i want to be a good father but outside of that

00:28:57.000 what would you say is your personal mission um well uh let me see here i was i had something

00:29:07.340 on mine i'll catch you in a sec but you know you were going to tell me about how good you are at

00:29:12.320 world of warcraft or whatever your whatever global ranking is i think that's what you're

00:29:17.420 going to talk to me about the funny thing is i think that mentioning that game is probably

00:29:21.320 super dated so the video gamers out there are gonna be like what is this guy talking about what

00:29:25.640 the hell are these guys talking about right now yeah but yeah i mean my mission dude is um i'm

00:29:31.640 still it's it's i'm still figuring it out right but like i'm a i'm a newcomer christian and i'm

00:29:37.800 still learning a lot like i'm just i'm just now ripping into the bible i'm like getting to a place

00:29:43.660 where i can actually sit down and read it and be like wow this is the first time i've ever actually

00:29:47.560 been able to read this thing like um so in many ways it's kind of like when you're a newcomer in

00:29:53.680 recovery in aa you just you just do a lot of listening and you can help sometimes you can

00:29:59.220 help people with your story more so when you're a newcomer than when you're an old timer because

00:30:02.980 the newcomers can connect with you more and relate to you more so um and you know the thing is like

00:30:11.880 the crazy thing is like i i i didn't want to write a book i don't like i didn't i got to a place where

00:30:17.880 i just kind of wanted to set up life on a beach somewhere and just go into hiding and just live a

00:30:23.620 quiet life and make a simple living and but then you know this woman came into my life and she's

00:30:30.740 like no you're not doing that like no because i won't get into all the super like deep stuff that

00:30:37.720 we've experienced together with spirituality and becoming a christian and but i i um i it's like i

00:30:44.600 i have a mission to do and i i my thing is i want to the the final goal is to have like a surf club

00:30:51.040 um which is sort of like a ymca for surfing but uh and i don't really want to you know um relate

00:30:59.420 it to something like ymca but somewhere where i can um have a good influence on young young kids

00:31:05.020 young men especially ones who are surfing and stuff and just give them what basically what i

00:31:10.340 didn't have as a kid because i man i mean my with the situation with my parents i was on my own and

00:31:17.060 i had to live through so much turmoil and pain to get where i am and yeah that's necessary

00:31:22.480 sometimes but i think if you i i look at like people who were formed by good families and

00:31:30.060 like i like for example i see this uh this one guy he his clips all the time he's got like 10

00:31:36.140 kids and he's you know he's christian and his family's cranking and it just i'm like wow

00:31:41.760 something's working in this guy's life whereas with other families you'll see like they have

00:31:47.280 one kid and everything's collapsed and the the kid is in a terrible situation because they don't

00:31:53.140 have god or like this seal of protection in a way so yeah does that um come through basically with

00:32:01.140 where i'm at with my mission no i think great question i have a tough question to answer right

00:32:05.260 it is but i think a lot of guys who listen to this are trying to unpack and discover i don't

00:32:13.680 like the i don't like the word find it's too passive for me when when you say find but what

00:32:20.960 i'm hearing you say is that you're actually unpacking it you're discovering it you're

00:32:25.040 building it you're trying new things um i love the surf club idea for young men and i thought

00:32:32.480 of something similar here in town not with surf because you know we live in the desert so there's

00:32:36.920 no surfing here unless it's a you know like a fake wave pool or whatever which is cool like

00:32:42.000 or or wakeboarding i guess there's a lot of not wakeboarding wake surfing is that what it is

00:32:46.920 Wake surfing? Yeah. But what I do appreciate about what you said is, and this is what I would want

00:32:56.620 guys to know, is that whatever you suffered with when you were a young man and a boy is probably

00:33:04.740 the path. That's what I found. I've interviewed over, gosh, close to 600 highly successful men

00:33:10.360 in their own right at this point. And it seems to me that whatever men struggle with tends to be

00:33:16.500 the path of development and improvement in the lives of other people yeah yeah and i mean i just

00:33:24.620 feel like even recently this has really come on pretty strong that that's where i can probably

00:33:29.720 have the most impact with young men you know and uh you know girls as well boys and girls but like

00:33:37.500 in those uh developmental stages where they're coming up and maybe they don't have a strong

00:33:42.820 family to fall back on and it's like well come to the club come surf and you know we'll do some

00:33:47.700 other cool stuff as well um i was just curious though uh because i mentioned i was listening

00:33:53.980 to your episode with john eldridge which was i love how he talks about how how god is just so

00:33:58.080 wild you know like and and kind of like nature right it's it's like yeah it'll it'll mess you

00:34:04.540 up but it's beautiful as well it'll kill you but it's dangerous but it's it's beautiful as well

00:34:09.680 Like, where are you at with that?

00:34:11.280 Like, are you still discovering your faith journey?

00:34:14.180 I didn't get to finish the episode, but I was just curious.

00:34:16.900 Oh, yeah.

00:34:17.420 I struggle with that all the time, man.

00:34:19.340 I appreciate you asking me about it.

00:34:20.860 And people ask me these questions quite a bit.

00:34:23.700 I'm a believer for sure.

00:34:26.720 I don't read the Bible a whole lot, quite honestly.

00:34:29.900 I pray often and I feel like sometimes I find some divine inspiration.

00:34:37.520 but yeah it is one thing that continues to evade me if I'm being honest um so yeah I'm kind of on

00:34:47.020 the fence a little bit about it not that I don't want to believe I do I want to get in the game

00:34:51.380 but I have yet to see a reason to quite honestly yeah I mean it's it's a battle even like with

00:34:57.400 me having some really positive stuff happen in my life it's a daily battle I can go down really

00:35:02.960 quick quick where i'm like this is to tell tell my wife this is i'm done this is bs like this

00:35:09.080 what god would allow this or that you know like did that whole kind of framework but um yeah so

00:35:16.240 i mean but then i have my updates too where i'm like okay no i see i see what i see it god's like

00:35:21.320 kind of creating a framework here for what i need to do and i think like you mentioned it's just like

00:35:25.360 going back to what did you walk through as a kid and what what you know what what do you have to

00:35:31.180 offer like young kids or whatever it may be, right? Yeah. No, I think that's right. I think

00:35:37.180 that's exactly right. I believe that he has given us gifts and talents and abilities and it's up to

00:35:41.940 us to use them. We don't have to, you know, we have our agency. I've never really wrestled with

00:35:46.820 what kind of God would allow this to take place because I've never really considered in the lives

00:35:52.780 of my own children that if they make mistakes or something horrible happens, whether it's

00:35:57.880 medically related or, or some existential tragedy that it's my doing. I would not allow that so to

00:36:06.520 speak as their father, but it just happens. And I feel the same way is true with God is that,

00:36:12.880 you know, he is omnipotent. He does have complete power and authority and sovereignty over all

00:36:18.740 things. But if he were to interject that way, what it would mean is that he's taking away

00:36:25.740 someone's agency. And he's not, it's universal principles based on what I know, what I understand

00:36:33.440 of the Bible and God is that he is governed by principles just as we are. And that is that he

00:36:40.380 will not take away our agency. So. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. More shall be revealed, right?

00:36:49.660 Yeah. I think that's the, you know, like some people might say, well, isn't that convenient?

00:36:54.000 like the things that go great are god's doing the things you don't understand well you'll figure it

00:37:00.720 out or you'll find out later it's like that's pretty convenient but also i happen to agree with

00:37:05.580 it yeah yeah definitely man well and i like what you said too and i wish i wish guys would really

00:37:13.500 hear this because when you ask me that it's it lands so much more powerfully for me personally

00:37:21.860 than it does some Bible-thumping preacher

00:37:25.360 who knows the gospel inside and out

00:37:28.120 and can memorize scripture

00:37:29.380 and has a scriptural reference for every problem that I have

00:37:33.920 because I just don't believe it.

00:37:37.060 Like, man, you got an answer for everything

00:37:39.460 and everything is filtered through this lens.

00:37:41.880 But when I hear you asking questions,

00:37:43.580 it's much more powerful.

00:37:45.220 And I wish people, I wish more men understood that

00:37:47.940 because I think it would empower them

00:37:49.640 to speak up on things that are relevant and important to them

00:37:53.440 outside of even just the gospel.

00:37:56.340 Yeah.

00:37:57.700 Yeah, yeah.

00:37:58.580 I mean, I'm curious because I'm trying to figure it out too, you know,

00:38:02.920 and like I don't want to believe this.

00:38:05.880 I didn't for a long time, just like that Christ was the Messiah

00:38:08.880 and he is who he said he was.

00:38:11.240 I mocked all that, but I've just had quite a few powerful things happen

00:38:15.880 in my life in the last few years where I'm like, wow,

00:38:18.040 I think this is the real deal.

00:38:19.360 And this is worth seeking out because what I had before was garbage compared to even with my life getting better and sobriety and all that.

00:38:27.840 I just got so sick of building things up and getting so close to success and then everything collapsing.

00:38:35.800 You know, and it's even in sobriety and sorry to cut you off.

00:38:39.900 I just and I want to mention this because like I think there's there's it's like a generational thing.

00:38:45.820 Right. And I'm sure you've talked about this with guests before, but like the trauma, the cycles, I watched it.

00:38:52.360 It's it happened in my grandpa's life, the alcoholism, building things up, the marriages and then everything collapsing.

00:38:59.200 And then they go through that cycle over and over and over again.

00:39:02.580 And then it happened in my dad's life. And it started happening in my life.

00:39:06.640 And it's like, what even when I'm sober? OK, so I can't blame it on alcohol.

00:39:11.900 you know and it's like okay i think there's something well not i think it's like god kind

00:39:18.180 of speaking to me through people and showing me that it's actually these like generational

00:39:23.820 curses or spirits that that affect each the each generation and so that's what i've really been

00:39:32.040 learning about digging into because it's just like i can't put my head in the sand with it

00:39:35.920 yeah and yeah and trying to break all that

00:39:40.300 i mean that makes sense you know i think a lot of us will do that i i i've used this analogy in

00:39:48.120 the past where you know you might be playing peekaboo with your kid or your nephew or niece

00:39:53.080 or whatever and you cover your eyes and then you reveal your face and they laugh and giggle

00:39:56.800 and then they do the same thing and and toddlers actually believe that if they cover their eyes

00:40:02.980 and they can't see you that you can't see them. And we laugh and we tease about it because it's

00:40:11.700 funny. It's stupid. It's funny. It's silly. And yet as grown men, we do the same thing. We're 1.00

00:40:17.920 like, oh man, maybe if I hide my alcoholism, people won't see me. Maybe if I hide my pornography

00:40:23.900 addiction, maybe if I hide my insecurities and my doubts and frustrations, my wife won't know.

00:40:28.720 no everybody knows bro everybody can see you and the minute that a person wakes up to that reality

00:40:35.400 is the minute they realize okay i gotta actually do something about this yeah yeah definitely like

00:40:43.640 like i mentioned before when i was a kid you know in my early 20s i had people saying mike

00:40:48.440 you're an alcoholic straight up and i remember oh my god i couldn't tell you how mad that me

00:40:55.320 I would snap on people. 0.97

00:40:56.620 I'd be like, you know, worry about yourself.

00:41:00.920 Like, I got this under control.

00:41:03.040 Worry about yourself.

00:41:03.700 Look at your life.

00:41:05.240 Look what's going on in your life.

00:41:06.540 You know, that whole mentality.

00:41:08.400 But yeah, like you said, people, but I had to come to terms with that.

00:41:12.140 They were right.

00:41:13.400 And it's, yeah, it's not easy, but you got to face it.

00:41:19.240 How would you react if I were, we don't know each other, but how would you, if we were

00:41:24.380 friends let's say a day-to-day basis friends if i were to say hey mike you're an alcoholic

00:41:29.720 how would you react today versus the way you would have reacted then oh i usually beat people

00:41:36.800 to the punchline i usually i mean i usually say hey i'm a recovering alcoholic it's not like i go

00:41:44.080 around wearing it on like you know sure right badge but like if it's for some reason it comes

00:41:50.740 up or they're like, we're drinking, come down to the beach. I said, man, I'm a, I'm a recovering

00:41:55.480 alcoholic, you know, I've been sober a long time. Thanks. But I could come down and, you know,

00:42:00.180 bring some, uh, spin drips or something. Do you, okay. So here's one of the questions I've had a

00:42:06.500 lot and I want to get to your book as well, but do you ever question or have you ever had a

00:42:11.700 consideration that wrapping up, and I'm not saying you do this, but this is one of the things that

00:42:16.480 I've often wondered is that if we wrap up our identity and being quote unquote, an alcoholic,

00:42:21.260 does that make us more of the thing than saying, no, I'm not an alcoholic. I just struggle with

00:42:27.300 alcohol. And so here's what I'm doing to overcome it. Do you understand what I'm saying? Does that,

00:42:32.380 does that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, uh, especially when I was more into the meditation

00:42:38.760 and stuff, I would, I stopped saying I was an alcoholic for a while because I was listening

00:42:44.720 to teachers who were like, don't put that out into the universe and all that. And, um, you know,

00:42:51.840 it's, uh, well, I'll back up even a little bit before that, you know, for a long time,

00:42:57.020 I didn't want to go to AA because I didn't want to be associated with those people or

00:43:02.120 being an alcoholic and because they were losers, man, I don't want to end up like them. I went to 0.91

00:43:07.480 meetings with my dad when I was a kid, F that, you know, like, but you're speaking my story right

00:43:13.460 now but i ended up there and like i said i was at such a bottom that i had no choice and i also

00:43:22.600 was like you know what i'm screwed anyways i might as well these people know they're these people

00:43:28.760 know how to live life without drugs and alcohol and then when i started going to meetings and 0.94

00:43:34.000 it's anonymous so you don't know who's in there you think it's all losers i've sat next to some

00:43:40.340 of the most successful inspiring people on this planet in the meetings of AA they've got 40 50

00:43:49.900 years sober you would never know at the top of the top and you know what I mean and I'm like well

00:43:55.940 there goes that another breaking down what I think something is I don't know anything I don't um but

00:44:04.060 uh yeah there was one other thing I was going to touch on about that but does that kind of

00:44:08.320 makes sense to you yeah i mean total sense because i remember sitting in a meeting and there was a

00:44:15.260 person who every time i went they they said i'm so and so i'm an alcoholic i've been sober for 30

00:44:24.460 years and i was like i'd roll my eyes you know i'm like dude you're not an alcohol 30 years sober

00:44:31.060 and you're still calling yourself an alcoholic like it was really hard for me to wrap my head

00:44:36.160 around. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough, man. I, I get that. And I guess I've sort of just surrendered

00:44:44.220 to it and I could be wrong by, by saying, you know, saying I'm an alcoholic, but I just have

00:44:49.140 sort of surrendered to it. Cause it's, I, I needed to meet people who knew how to live life without

00:44:54.520 the drugs and alcohol and be okay. I didn't know how to do that. So I just, yeah, I've basically

00:45:01.040 surrendered to it. What did you, what did you, you said be okay. What, what do you feel like

00:45:06.540 you needed to be okay from? Well, you know, looking, well, it was obviously then it was

00:45:15.700 my externals, but I didn't realize how much it was, it was what was going on in the interior

00:45:20.420 life for me. I, I just wasn't okay ever. Like I, I've even in sobriety, I mean, I mean,

00:45:27.820 you name it I've been addicted to it sex nicotine uh you know call drink coffee alcoholically like

00:45:36.640 like it's just this and I've gotten a little better with it over the years but it's like this

00:45:41.540 dis-ease from within and it's obviously it's like I grew up in a really stressful environment

00:45:48.440 that's I I've been in a low level anxiety my whole life and not even known it because that's

00:45:53.360 what my parents imprinted on me god bless them that's what their parents imprinted on them

00:45:58.900 right i mean my dad's story is so horrific i got a chance to sit down and interview him

00:46:05.080 and he said things that i i i can't believe dude it broke me for like a week i mean just

00:46:12.160 his dad disappearing from alcoholism his mom beating the shit out of him and his brother 0.97

00:46:19.000 when he's eight from six years old all the way up to eight or nine you know like screwing bringing 0.97

00:46:26.120 dudes home from work screwing dudes right in front of him to the point where he was on the street

00:46:30.340 with his little brother living in an abandoned home in hollywood just living with homeless people

00:46:36.180 like that the homeless people helping them out you know giving them some hot dogs and stuff and

00:46:40.520 then his mom he hasn't seen his mom since he was nine years old so he and his dad was gone so him

00:46:45.700 and his brother ended up in like the system you know juvenile hall mclaren mckinley all these

00:46:52.240 and he was there until his late teenage years like just so just just horrific stuff has been

00:46:57.940 going on in my family line for a long time yeah that's it's hard but it's also really fascinating

00:47:07.360 i i'm kind of i'm wrestling with this question i want to ask because

00:47:14.500 like let me just ask at what point do you stop blaming your parents or their upbringing

00:47:22.180 or the the cycle or the pattern and decide to start being your own man

00:47:31.200 for me it was in the right away in the 12-step program while going through the steps

00:47:35.640 because as long as you remain the victim and i'm sure you've talked about this a thousand times 0.99

00:47:41.400 you're you're fucked you're you're the victim you are you're not going anywhere dude you gotta 1.00

00:47:46.420 man up yeah whatever happened happened but you gotta take responsibility for your life 1.00

00:47:51.860 and i got that through the steps like yeah and then getting to a place where

00:47:58.600 i mean you know it sounds corny but it's like okay i'm grateful for my situation with my parents

00:48:06.720 and all that because okay now i have some tools to work with people who are going through this

00:48:12.720 and there's more people than not that are going through this in the world i think you know like

00:48:17.480 going through what the the stuff with the parents the rough childhood the trauma the addiction

00:48:25.400 alcoholism like abuse agree i agree yeah it's i think it's more common than not for sure because

00:48:31.120 you think about like look how many even in just la i don't know there's 20 million people there

00:48:35.840 there's not that many people who are doing well like you might if you go to santa monica or

00:48:40.140 whatever palisades there's nice homes and but what about inglewood compton most la is is on fire

00:48:48.860 yeah they're in the middle of a big political shake-up right now too yeah and that's just

00:48:55.040 one area as well so yeah yeah so you know what i mean though that's just one area right of like

00:48:59.520 there's so much poverty and stuff like look what's going on all the with the native american tribes

00:49:03.920 I'm sure there's probably one near you somewhere. It's, it's not pretty. 0.95

00:49:07.280 The Utes. Yeah. The Utes. And yeah. And Navajo as well.

00:49:13.580 Um, with the native American ancestry, what, what is your, what is your,

00:49:17.900 I'm probably not going to say this right. Your tribal heritage.

00:49:20.940 I don't know if that's how you would say it.

00:49:22.200 My mom is, um, she's, um, she's a mix.

00:49:25.580 She's half Chippewa and Sioux for, so North Dakota, they're from North,

00:49:30.040 they're right near the border there and near Canada.

00:49:32.160 do you think that so obviously we're going to get into a little bit american history i'm just i'm

00:49:37.520 actually curious i've been wanting to ask somebody where you have that heritage built you know built

00:49:41.080 into your dna do you feel like the united states government has enabled a lot of the the maybe you

00:49:50.380 don't even think this but from the outside looking in we can have an honest discussion about it the

00:49:54.320 the the victimhood mentality the you know the the oppressed mentality potentially do you think that

00:50:03.700 that that has to do with the way that the united states government has treated

00:50:07.920 native american indians throughout our history yeah it's interesting you know so i didn't

00:50:16.760 grow up on the reservation you know my mom and her family did for part of their life and then

00:50:23.160 they got off the reservation and came down to we grew up mostly between California and Hawaii

00:50:28.600 my mom mostly grew up in Hawaii actually but I actually thought you were Hawaiian initially so

00:50:33.820 that's interesting I didn't I didn't yeah I'm a mix Irish and uh and and native so um makes perfect

00:50:39.900 sense Irish and Native American they just go together so well yeah and like I said we like

00:50:45.000 to drink dude yeah well that's that's one thing both both cultures seem to have in common right

00:50:50.980 yeah but you know it's funny when i was younger my dad used to say to me he used to say you don't

00:50:58.520 have a chance kid you don't have a chance as far as like drinking goes because of you know both

00:51:03.920 sides of the family just being torched from alcoholism do you think you embrace that idea

00:51:08.120 though do you like did you it probably didn't help it probably it's not a very positive thing

00:51:12.960 to say to your son you don't have a chance kid you don't have a chance you know like uh but what

00:51:20.320 i wanted to mention because i have been to the to the reservation you know like i'm i'm you know

00:51:25.300 i'm a member and all that i'm enrolled but like um what i noticed was um i mean it's it's i mean

00:51:32.920 if you think about like just a culture being wiped out overnight what that does to the people

00:51:40.620 to the survivors right it's pretty heavy man i talked to a couple like you know people have lived

00:51:46.760 there their whole life and I mean they have stories from through their family lines of like

00:51:52.520 they were like they remember people going through the reservation and shooting the natives and like

00:51:57.880 they would get like shillings for like I think I forget how much 50 shillings for a girl or

00:52:03.280 100 for a man you know and it I you know a lot of cultures go through wartime and stuff right but I

00:52:10.480 mean obviously you but like I think that that is really kind of stored in the DMA that trauma of

00:52:16.260 Like, just the whole culture being wiped out overnight is stored in their DNA.

00:52:22.040 And I could be wrong. 0.99

00:52:23.340 Like, I don't know shit, right? 0.97

00:52:25.320 But just from what I've observed and what I've felt in my own veins at times, 0.98

00:52:31.220 there is a – they are warriors, man.

00:52:34.540 Like, you mess with a native, dude. 1.00

00:52:37.540 It's, you know, if they're not, like, super unhealthy, you better watch out 1.00

00:52:41.140 because a lot of them aren't.

00:52:42.180 There's obesity.

00:52:43.100 There's drug addiction.

00:52:43.980 There's all that, right?

00:52:45.300 But, yeah, it just seems like they're dealing with a lot of trauma and they're numbing the pain with whatever they can get.

00:52:52.700 But I'm sure there definitely is some enabling going on because you can, I think, like I said, I haven't lived on the reservation, but you can make it on the tribe with doing, I think, almost nothing.

00:53:04.360 You can be taken care of with housing and, you know, I'm not certain on that, but just from what I've seen.

00:53:12.860 Yeah, it's interesting. 0.89

00:53:14.660 When you talk about numb the pain, and it's not just Native Americans. 0.97

00:53:21.640 Everybody's numbing the pain, right? 1.00

00:53:23.620 I remember when I went to Havasu Falls years and years ago,

00:53:30.100 and we were coming back out of it.

00:53:31.840 Are you familiar with Havasu Falls?

00:53:33.820 I think I've driven through it briefly.

00:53:36.200 Okay, yeah, it's beautiful.

00:53:37.760 You hike down 10 or 11 miles into this canyon,

00:53:41.320 and beautiful crystal clear water spring fed coming right out of the cliff side it's beautiful

00:53:48.000 and we were hiking back out and you have to go late in the evening or early in the morning

00:53:54.340 because it gets too hot you'll literally die if you try to hike out in the middle of the day it's

00:53:58.000 just too hot so we're hiking out at dusk and we get through the village because it's i don't know

00:54:04.780 if it's the havasu tribe or navajo indian tribe i don't know actually but the tribe there still

00:54:10.840 manages the land that's their land and they let tourists like myself and others come in

00:54:14.860 and enjoy the springs and we're walking through the village and a sheriff rolls up and he's like

00:54:21.940 what are you guys doing here like we're we're hiking out we're going home he's like you guys

00:54:26.260 got to get out of here everybody's shooting each other and i'm like i'm like wait what

00:54:31.680 like everybody's shooting what are you talking about and he's like yeah everybody at the saloon

00:54:36.420 or the bar or whatever. It's like killing each other. And we heard gunshots and we're like,

00:54:41.400 yeah, we're getting out of here. And we left. And I couldn't help but think what you just said is

00:54:46.260 like, there is just so much hurt and pain and trauma built into it that has just become part

00:54:57.840 of the culture. It seems like at this point. And I actually think that about a large swath of the

00:55:04.240 black community as well. And it's, it's hard to see, but you can't help but think that that

00:55:10.220 trauma has just been handed down generationally. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I won't speak too much

00:55:18.160 about my mom's side of the family, but most people, most of them have had issues with alcoholism and

00:55:26.020 you know, there's been like lots of suicide and death and you know, one family member was

00:55:32.520 homeless for a long time they found her burned alive in a car they don't know if she did it or

00:55:37.080 someone else you know just just really just awful awful stuff man and um and like i said i you know

00:55:44.680 not to get too deep into the spirituality stuff but okay it's trauma right but it's also i think

00:55:51.220 a big part of it is these if you believe in christ in the battle of good and evil there's demons too

00:55:56.480 And they work in people's lives to create the same patterns of destruction.

00:56:02.780 And that's what happened to me and my dad.

00:56:05.180 And, you know, it's like, so this is stuff I'm still learning about.

00:56:08.760 And I'm trying, I'm still gaining confidence in talking about it.

00:56:15.460 But like you said, it's like, man, sometimes the newcomer can connect with people more than some, the old timer, right?

00:56:23.780 Because I'm learning with you.

00:56:26.480 yeah no i agree tell me a little bit about the the premise behind the book a life of opposing

00:56:34.320 forces when you talk about that concept what exactly are you referring to yeah just the uh

00:56:41.420 battle of light and dark in my own life like i uh i i had some amazing things happen with surfing

00:56:50.040 when i was a kid you know and like i i was lucky like we were poor but i lived a block away from

00:56:56.700 the ocean in uh in solana beach is my hometown and i could surf every day multiple days get stay

00:57:05.360 out of the house you know stay out we didn't even have a house we were living in the back of a

00:57:09.000 mattress shop you know um so just staying out of the mattress shop and surfing every day so and

00:57:14.180 then so through that i you know i started doing well with competing and then i don't know how but

00:57:19.900 I was able to turn pro for a few years in my early 20s I mean I failed miserably once I was pro

00:57:28.400 because of my my alcoholism stuff kicked in and then you know my family collapsed but so I've then

00:57:34.460 I've experienced the dark as well it's like yeah it's been really just so I've had this really

00:57:38.920 amazing I don't like saying the yin and the yang but it's been like this this experience of light

00:57:45.040 and dark happening in my life, in the external and on the, you know, interior as well.

00:57:53.860 Did you ever get to compete against Rob?

00:57:59.540 Not like one-on-one.

00:58:00.660 We might've competed against each other in a, in a, a group.

00:58:04.420 It's, it's called the Switchfoot Bro-Am where it's like, I don't know if you ever heard

00:58:08.020 of that, the band Switchfoot.

00:58:09.860 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:11.100 They have a big contest down here and we actually won it that year.

00:58:13.860 it was um me and three other guys but i think rob was on another team we were competing against but

00:58:19.980 that guy's on such another level that he's just he's you know it's like he's up there with slater

00:58:24.120 and all the gnarliest guys of all time yeah that's cool uh ever had a close encounter with a shark

00:58:31.380 i've seen so many sharks over the years man whether it's in that's so scary

00:58:37.060 or hawaii or so many dude it's yeah it's it's scary it's like in in california we mostly deal

00:58:47.020 with juvenile great whites so okay they're still like if it's you know they could take an arm or 0.93

00:58:53.480 something if it's you know if it's a little bit bigger but most of the time they could take an

00:58:57.820 arm no big deal i got two of them i know i know it's funny you say that because i heard someone

00:59:03.160 talking about this the other day a surfer was talking about how like like comparing surfing

00:59:06.860 to other sports and he was like yeah imagine a golfer's like tigers they're just about to take

00:59:11.860 a swing and then i don't know where a freaking lion just comes out and rips him to pieces on

00:59:17.520 the field you know because i mean like like mcfanning got hit yeah hit by a great white

00:59:24.140 shark in south africa during his heat in a competition and i mean it luckily it just it

00:59:29.660 just kind of rattled him and shook him like it didn't grab him it broke his leash did you ever

00:59:34.520 see this no no i didn't yeah great white shark he was sitting waiting for a wave it came up and

00:59:40.020 bumped him off his board i think he punched it in the in the nose or face but um it was a really

00:59:46.140 close call everyone thought he was dead that's terrifying like i don't know why we risk this i

00:59:53.460 don't i don't but it's like why why do you that that's a good question why do you i ask myself

00:59:59.160 that all the time but but i like i was saying before um well part of it is like this might

01:00:07.080 sound dramatic but man i've been through so much pain in this life that it feels like i've already

01:00:10.820 died in many ways and if that's how i go then we all gotta die you know so i know that's kind of

01:00:19.880 heavy to say that you know but and i hope i don't because i want to have a family and i want to do

01:00:25.280 good things here on earth before i go but it's just it's i love surfing i when i'm in the ocean

01:00:31.060 it's the most alive that i feel anywhere like i and i i need to be in close proximity to the ocean

01:00:38.280 for that reason um so i just love it i love it you know i don't like i said like if you ever come

01:00:45.280 over here i want to get you out in the water oh just keep me away from the sharks man like

01:00:51.260 if i can out paddle you or something then i'm good to go just keep me away from the sharks but

01:00:56.100 yeah look i don't i actually don't think you're way off base i think more men probably think

01:01:01.520 about this than we let on i i often joke about getting eaten by a grizzly bear when i'm on a

01:01:07.980 hunt not that i want to get killed and mauled by a grizzly bear they're terrifying but if i'm gonna

01:01:14.300 die at least i have a story that my grandkids get to tell about how grandpa tried to fight

01:01:19.900 off a grizzly bear and lost that's cooler than dying on my you know deathbed at 90 years old of

01:01:26.840 of lung cancer or something i don't know yeah imagine just sitting around even at you know

01:01:32.640 the age 50 60 whatever just rotting with cancer for years and this is more just like a bam you

01:01:39.880 know like straight to heaven or hell where you're going somewhere but um you know and god bless

01:01:45.900 people going through cancer which just seems like sure we're not making light of it no yeah

01:01:49.820 And that's another thing that just seems like it's just getting out of

01:01:52.760 control with him, not to go on a tangent, but yeah, go ahead. 0.95

01:01:56.940 What, what would you do if you saw a great white moving in for the kill? 0.87

01:02:00.480 What would be your first move? 1.00

01:02:02.940 Well, usually if they're going to kill you,

01:02:05.140 you're not even going to see him coming.

01:02:06.780 Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I also have done,

01:02:12.140 I did ocean lifeguarding for like six years in San Diego and a guy got a

01:02:16.940 swimmer was deep he was he wasn't that far out but he was it was about 10 or 15 feet of water

01:02:22.280 and a great white hit him and just took his legs just his whole almost the whole bottom half of

01:02:27.800 his body just shredded dead you saw this i was there that day i didn't see it happen live but

01:02:34.260 i was there that day and the body was at our headquarters under a tarp but uh he you know

01:02:39.880 you just you're in with great whites you're not even going to see him coming a tiger in hawaii

01:02:45.700 you might you might see coming you might they might come you know come surface sort of or you

01:02:51.160 know maybe uh different types of sharks you might see them coming but a great white you're just

01:02:56.140 you're just gonna be like bam it's over you know did you see that it's horrifying the video i think

01:03:02.500 it was a year or two ago the guy that got attacked by a tiger shark and he was in a bay or something

01:03:08.200 and he was just screaming as this tiger shark was attacking him it's it's horrifying like it's true

01:03:14.460 it's it's traumatizing to watch let alone to actually be there and probably experience it

01:03:19.540 but did you see that you know what i'm talking about no well did he actually get like bitten and

01:03:23.920 like did he oh bro yeah that tiger shark killed him like he he's on video him getting killed on

01:03:30.760 video he took the tiger shark toyed around with him a little bit and then eventually just dragged

01:03:34.920 him under the water i mean he it killed him oh a swimmer or surfer uh i think he was just i think

01:03:42.780 he was just swimming i don't think he'd be surfing no surfboard okay no i don't think so i could be

01:03:47.220 wrong but i i don't think he was surfing dude i've never i've never seen that on video before do you

01:03:52.700 know where it was or no i don't know that no i don't know god the tigers scare me the most man

01:04:00.020 when i'm surfing in hawaii i don't know why because they're just they'll just eat anything

01:04:05.900 well they're the they're the most they're the most aggressive towards humans correct of all

01:04:10.680 the sharks is that right and they're like garbage disposals they'll just bite into anything like i

01:04:15.760 mean i saw a video of one biting into a plastic canoe a fisherman you might have seen that one

01:04:20.020 but just just might as well sample that you know like whoa that's wild

01:04:26.400 i'm not going surfing with you man we're already like come out here we'll go hunt

01:04:33.620 together but i'm not going surfing with you bro like no way i'm good yeah

01:04:38.660 well man i really appreciate it um how did this has actually been a really good conversation i

01:04:46.800 love having conversations like this and i and part of the reason is is because you said i'm

01:04:51.840 i'm new to some of this journey and i think that's where myself and a lot of guys who will listen to

01:04:58.160 this will resonate is with guys who aren't the gurus right the experts the the cream of the crop

01:05:04.820 like have it all figured out necessarily but the guys who are like in the trenches doing good things

01:05:10.260 struggling with other things but figuring shit out and i love that about this conversation today

01:05:15.380 so how do the guys connect with you learn more about what you're doing and and pick up a copy

01:05:20.020 of your book as well uh yeah i just wanted to mention real quick before i say that was um i

01:05:27.980 mean the only reason that i was open to faith and stuff is because i had two christian guys come into

01:05:33.220 my life at the same time and they didn't even know each other one was from australia one was

01:05:38.180 from california and and um and i was at a bottom i went through another separation at the time

01:05:46.020 and i i was just like i think it's important for you to mention that when going when i go

01:05:52.740 through a separation it's really hard i can't eat i can't sleep for a year i waste away like it's

01:05:58.440 there's something that happens in me that is it's it's not normal i've heard of it happening

01:06:03.940 with certain people but it's like it's really hard but um but you know so i when i saw these

01:06:09.360 older guys i was like wow and they both they shared that they didn't even kiss their wives

01:06:14.240 until their wedding day and i was like what you know like that that's not how i've been doing

01:06:21.260 things in life like like but somehow these guys things were working they were married to their

01:06:26.360 wise for 20 years great their kids loved them you know works cranking like there's something

01:06:32.640 working here i was like i want that so i just you know that's kind of what was the the catalyst to

01:06:39.560 get me to where i am today but um you can you can reach me uh we have our website further active

01:06:46.620 and then um and then i'm getting help with all the social stuff too like i've always been anti

01:06:51.580 social media i really am not a fan of it but i see how it's necessary with with doing things

01:06:56.600 with like what we're doing here and so uh my insta handle is just michael s millen

01:07:01.760 so and the books on amazon and anywhere that you prefer to get it we'll sync it all up brother

01:07:08.480 appreciate you man um i will actually come surfing with you sometime you know if we if we can make

01:07:14.100 that happen in southern california if you go on a hunt with me we'll we'll we'll do a double whammy

01:07:18.540 We'll do something like that. Do you hunt at all? Uh, no, I mean, I spear fish, so that's kind of

01:07:25.060 like hunting, but no, dude, that's, that's sharks hunting you. You're putting blood in the water.

01:07:29.980 That's different. It's not, you keep going back to where the sharks are. I'm trying to get you

01:07:33.520 out of the water on the land. Yeah, no, I would love, I'd love to have a crack at that, you know,

01:07:39.480 um, definitely let's, uh, keep in touch, man. I'm really stoked to meet you.

01:07:43.620 Awesome. Mike, appreciate it, man. Thanks for joining me today.

01:07:45.840 Thank you.

01:07:48.540 All right, gentlemen, there you go. My powerful conversation with Michael Millen. I hope you

01:07:53.700 enjoyed it. I actually really enjoyed it. It felt like talking with a buddy who, you know,

01:07:59.920 we would just sit down and, you know, be on a hunt together or, you know, just hanging out

01:08:05.480 as two guys. And I think those are some of the best conversations. And I hope this one

01:08:10.400 impacted you in some way. I know there's a lot of men because I talk with you guys all the time

01:08:15.360 that are struggling in some ways.

01:08:18.620 And Michael doesn't want you to struggle.

01:08:20.760 You don't want to struggle.

01:08:21.780 I don't want you to struggle.

01:08:22.960 So I hope this one served you.

01:08:24.980 Make sure to check out Michael on the gram and the socials.

01:08:28.340 Also pick up a copy of his book, A Life of Opposing Forces.

01:08:33.820 Last thing, guys, make sure to hit that preview call

01:08:36.540 that we have tonight.

01:08:37.600 Again, that's Tuesday, June 9th tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern.

01:08:41.480 go to theironcouncil.com slash preview.

01:08:46.180 All right, gentlemen, we'll be back next week,

01:08:48.260 or excuse me, tomorrow, not next week,

01:08:49.960 tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

01:08:51.840 Until then, go out there, take action,

01:08:53.720 and become the man you are meant to be.

01:08:55.880 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:08:58.840 If you're ready to take charge of your life

01:09:00.440 and be more of the man you were meant to be,

01:09:02.840 we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

01:09:11.480 You

Order of Man - June 09, 2026

MICHAEL MILLIN ｜ Break the Cycle of Trauma and Addiction

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